Jon Stewart – One of My Favorite People - What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

Thinking about this a lot. and and trying to to wrap my mind as the mic killing you. Sorry. Oh sorry sorry sorry sorry I've. I've been. you can pull it with you can go now. That's what I want to do. I know what it is. Dynamic might probably rock a little bit. Do you want to get like a dynamic one that moments with people. Yeah. I'll try not to fidget. I'll just sit. No, I'll just keep you know what happens at at when I'm taping is. the sound engineer just keeps telling me to not rock my desk.

because I have a tendency to, like, do this and this and this. You make the sounds. Right. So I would hit the buttons. That was mine. You would hit the button. Yet you will, you know, you have the buttons on the bottom of your suit. And so I would always be doing this on the desk. Yeah. Yeah. And then they, I think they told me this week or week three of hosting. Right. And I don't think I've ever put my hands down the same on a table. because I'm so scared of screwing the whole thing up. You know, that's like, what is Trevor his turn to jumpers? Why is that right? He had a real button issue.

And this is what now? Trevor Noah. Welcome, friend. How are you? Nice to see you. This is exciting to do this without headphones. Like I. So don't do podcasts where you go and sit with people. I'm shocked that you leave the house. To be honest, I don't do it very often.

Yeah, only for you that can I tell you. I really take that as a. Yeah. I was thinking that the other day. I was like, John doesn't go anywhere. That's correct. I met you not going anywhere. That's it's one of the worst reputations to have, because when you do show up somewhere, people are like, what? So what's going on? Like? It almost feels like your parents have come home. It's like, what? Why are you here? And you're like, I am allowed to go out. I just mostly choose to not.

Have you always been that way? Yes. Why? It's one of the reasons I think I got into stand up. I am very, which seems. sort of contradictory, but I'm very introverted, and so I don't I don't get energy from socializing. Oh, yeah. No, I'm the same. Okay. You're the same. Yeah, yeah, I'm the same. So, like, when I was younger, I would bartend to give me the illusion of being nice. I worked in bars forever.

because you felt like you were out. Yeah, but you didn't have the idea where you had. to, like, sit with somebody and socialize. You were doing something. You were so you could focus on task at hand. Comedy. Same way you show up to Friday night to Saturday night. People are out there on dates, they're having fun. And what are you doing? Look at my notes. It was a no, no, no. I'm going on in five. I don't have a card, so I always prefer that.

I know, it's okay. Here's the thing. I'm like that, but, Perverts. Oh, really? Yeah. All my friends. I think I've strategically chosen because they. they push me and kick me out of the house. Oh, really? All of them. Every single one of my friends. So modern communication has very much, for me, quantified the extent of my isolation. because your phone will tell you numerically. how many people tried to get Ahold of you that day on your text or on your emails.

And when I tell my kids, they just feel like, do you live in a bomb shelter? Like what? You know, I'll be like, I got three text today and they'll be like, all day. Three. Yeah, but you've always been a Luddite. Yeah, I know, like, you've always, always. This isn't going well. This is going great. What do you mean, this is going great? I'm being exposed. No, no, no, you know, you know what I think it is? It's funny. Look, I mean, I only. really came to the US properly when you brought me. You know, you called me.

I called you on the phone phones. That still the most random call of all time job. And still the one that I still don't understand. I called up Trevor. I saw your standup. So, like, two minutes of your standup, and I was like, that guy could do my job. This is very upsetting. What stand up was this? Cause I was I was only doing, like, South African stuff. No, no, no, it was a special that you had done from South Africa, though. I believe it was from South. Yeah, but I watched it. You know, I've been doing this for a long time. We always have tapes and we're always looking for new talent.

And there was a. authenticity, but also an insight, like there was just. You had, you had it, son. Let me tell you something. I don't know how to define it, but you had it. It wasn't a dimple. It was a whole other thing. It was. No, I just remember the material was so, like, insightful.

Thank you, but, well, did like. And there was a warmth. There was all. these things that I thought like, oh, that dude like, that doesn't just happen. You can't fake that. You can't. There is a certain level. of artistry, craftsmanship, those authenticity, those things that come together and you smell it like immediately. And also the converse, like, I can pop a tape in and go like, oh, the audience is nervous for that poor fella. Oh, you like that? Yeah. Take that out.

It was. It's sort of like, what is it, Dave Portnoy's one bite. Everybody knows the rules. Like, same thing with comics a lot of times, like one bite. Everybody knows. And you watch it and go like eight, six, nine, two. You had that and it's rare. And I'd watched enough tapes to know that it was rare. And I go, who's that guy? And they go, this guy Trevor Noah and I go, let's have him do this show. And they said, well, he's not, you know, he's not from here. He's from let's call him. And I was like,

I'm Willy. Wonka and I'm about to call this dude and blow his fucking mind. and say like, son, your your ship is come in. And so. we got and we're like Jon Stewart of The Daily Show, New York City. And, we'd like you to come in and do a bit for us. You're like, well, my world tour doesn't end for another two months. And I was like, and it took me a while to figure out like, oh, this opportunity, is an enormous, constriction of Trevor's visibility and a giant pay cut.

No, but you know what? You thought it was for me? No. You know what? It was for me. Actually, I'll say this. I was I was ignorant, but I'm happy that I was. I'm really pleased that I was ignorance. Right. So I've never told you this, so I never knew who you were, right? Right, right. So you called me and which was also crazy. You called me not like an executive producer. Now you called me directly. I will, I've told this this part before, but like I was, I'll never forget. I was in Harrods in London,

the mega store that sells everything to the richest people in the world. Not because I could afford anything. Key with the Queen, I wish I was, I was looking, I was staring at an underwater sculpture thing, like a moped, you know, like the old school submersible things. Yes. It's like that. A thing that only three people in the world. Exactly. And two of them are sultans. Yeah. I'm staring at this. I'm looking at the price. I'm going. How long would it take me? But where would I keep it? How? I don't live near the ocean. But this was just the culmination of my life's everything.

And almost in a perfect way. My mum always says, Ask God, and God will respond, I want God. How would I ever be able to afford this underwater moped? And my phone rings. That was your mum? No. God was a Jew in this story. Does she have any sense she'd. Then she'd be cheering for the wrong team, my friend. Mum. What do you mean? My mum is my mum. Converted to Judaism many long ago. What? Yeah. My mum been like she. She might have taken my place, but I got out of the business,

so I. So, so you call me and this is like, I think what I, what I remember most about it was the comedy of the conversation. Because you call me like, hi, can I please speak to Trevor? Trevor? I was like, oh, speaking. Were you okay? Trevor, this is, my name is Jon Stewart. I'm a comedian from New York, said Jon Stewart. You said you may or you may or may not know me. I said, I'm sorry, I, I don't I don't know you. And you said your wording was so specific and it was so funny. You said no. Should you have. No. Should you have?

It was so self-effacing, I loved it. You said no. Should you have? And then, you said, well, I, I, host, a little show. I run a little show, in New York City. It's, called the Daily Show. And, and I was like, oh, pause for a no. But then I said, oh, I've heard of that show. And you said, as you should, as you should. And I remember in that moment thinking, I don't know who this person is, but I've talked about this with every comedian comedian, there is a silliness that comedians possess.

And, you know, you know what I felt it was like, I remember when I did Comedians in Cars with Jerry. Yes. Right. Jerry said to me, I am yet to meet a comedian. who answers another comedian's phone call in a normal voice. Yes, we all have like a oh, God, right, Johnny boy? Where? Hello. But there's just like a comedians. It doesn't matter what it is. Yeah, there's a silliness. I always answer as the Queen that you go. I mean, you said no youngsters don't even. I don't see if I could rise.

This is what I mean. So it's almost like a it's it's the badge that we, we, we have at work, you know, like, can you come in? Yeah. Yeah, I'm a comedian. Here's my badge. So I go, this man is definitely a comedian. I know nothing about his world. I think I've heard of The Daily Show. And the crazy thing for me was, I think you know. this not just from the world, but you don't know for me, The Daily Show had the international edition, right? Yes. Right. They used to be in anything on CNN. Yes. Like it was a new show. So in my world, you used to come after Christiane.

Amanpour, Richard Quest, right. And like a bunch of other CNN, I mean, the internet and, you know, the international wasn't like the US. It wasn't just talking heads that shout at each other. It was very welcome. This is CNN. Yeah, Hong Kong markets have opened and CNN is on the ground. Right. It was actual news that goes on around the world. The thing that Americans are. Yeah, utterly. And when they were, when they were reporting live from Beirut, it was live in Beirut.

It was that that CNN once a week and then this man would come on. and I think I saw you maybe twice, but you left an indelible impression. in my brain. Why? Because I didn't know what was happening. But I remember thinking, there is no way this man is going to keep his job. I don't know when I found him in this journey, but he's not going to keep his job because you if you and the news. and then you told a joke and then the audience laughed. But then at some point they like sort of groaned in the. But I didn't know there was The Daily Show.

And then it went back to normal news. They're like, all right, now it's time for someone. It's Africa. Focus. Here we go. And I remember thinking, damn, that guy who's. going to lose his job, he's going to lose his job. It's why context is so important. You know, you say that. Yeah, but can I tell you, I genuinely believe one of the things. that has happened, a lot of people ask me about cancel culture, right? Oh, I'm sure they've asked you hours. And the thing I keep saying is, and I genuinely believe this, I don't think there's such a thing as cancel culture.

I think people criticize someone if they don't like them. I think people have more platforms to criticize now. Right before people would write a letter, like my mom used to do, that she would write letters to the board. Costa in upset. Yeah, like the one I to the editor. One I remember was she wrote a letter. There was a South African, our Orbis essentially in South Africa, and they had a hamburger and the ad was Handel's Messiah. So it's like, oh, the New Year. Hallelujah.

Was that vibe, right? My mom only knew that song as a church song. Right. And I'll she this woman looked at me and she said, did. they just sell a hamburger using the Lord's music? Yeah. And I didn't know it was classical music. Me that she she wrote a whole letter. We went we mailed it together to the to the broadcast. They responded. very kindly and they said, hey, actually, this was not a Christian song. It's been co-opted by religious organizations. But I originally thought about this, and she read the letter to me.

and we set that together like, well, I was maybe, wow, ten years old, 12. But I remember even then being like, damn, we just learned something today. This is new. But. to that point in. that world context is everything. And when I think of like cancel culture and comedy and all these things, I go. most of the time. comedians would be telling a joke in the context of a comedy space, correct? Right. Yes, you're on stage.

The audience is sitting there. We all know this is comedy. So if you look at an audience member. and say, I wish you had died on the Titanic, right? They know you're in a comedy space. That's right. Now what happened is they take that. joke out of the comedy space, right? The algorithm sends it to somebody whose grandfather died on the Titanic. That's. That's dead on. That's so fucking brilliant. That's exactly. That's exactly it. And even the people that know.

the context do it, do that same thing. because they want to weaponize it. Oh, yeah. To hurt you. Oh, yeah. The other thing that happened in the rise of social media are those that. whose livings now depend on stirring the pot. So I used to do a bit. This must be 1996 95. Something is about Jewish community, black community, Jews and blacks. You know, why are we so mad at each other?

You know, come from the same history, 2000 years of abuse. We just expressed our sufferings. differently as people, blacks develop the blues. Jews complain. We just never thought of putting it to music, you know? Second, I did a whole thing is my grandmother wrote a blues song. Gee, it's drafty in here, you know, the whole thing. And then there was a bit about Jews and blacks. We shouldn't fight each other. We should get together and get whitey. Oh. I'm sorry. Wrong crowd, you know. Yeah. I'll go online now on like, the dare websites or like white supremacist websites.

Know my face like, in, like, sort of as gray as they can possibly make it in the thing. Jews and blacks should get whitey. And then, like this Jew thinks that. and they know, of course they know, but it's their way of. it's an intimidation tactic. But what social media is, is like.

when we do a gig, whenever you do a gig, there's always people. that aren't digging it. You feel it. Yeah. You work the, you know, seller. There's always going to be a couple of tables that are like, yeah, yeah, this one's the ones I know. It's the people who came with a friend didn't necessarily. come for you or the comedy. That's right. And they're like, let's see what happens. We're not we're not down. Yes, it would bother the in the moment. when you go upstairs, you. have played hummus with your friends, you start goofing off. All the sudden you walk away. Social media is after that show.

Then you have to ride home in the cab with them. while they talk about how bad you love that. And that's so it it's it's there. Man. That's such a great analogy. It's there to get you. It's there and it works. People say, like, you should ignore it. It's like, hey, let me ask you, if you're walking down the street. and someone yells your name, do you turn around? Yeah. Like, of course you do. You're fucking human. Yeah. So you try your best not to allow it.

to infiltrate. the parts of you that are more stable. But it's very hard to just, It's. I think it's very. unhuman. Yes. To do that, of course. And that is the economy that's grown up around it. So what they do is they try to find the thing. that they think will be most upsetting. Now, obviously it loses its efficacy after a while.

Like for me, the funniest part was like my dog Dipper died. I don't if you ever met Dipper, I used to bring him to the show. Three Liger is the greatest dog in the world. He died. I announced that on the show as a blubbering error, and people on social media started responding very positively. So I did a thing I never do, which is post some shit. Here's some pictures of me and my family. When we first met Dipper, we met him at a shelter down. on Crosby Street, and people started in the comment section.

of those pictures responding with pictures of dogs. They had lost their sort of. So the first picture was like, this is, you know, Coco, our Cavalier King Charles. I hope that she and Dipper are playing at the Rainbow Bridge. And, you know, this is Mr. Muggles, you know, our cocker spaniel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the third one was. Why did you change your name, Jew? And I was like, oh, right. Yeah. It's got nothing to do with.

their lives. Are whatever it is, either financially or emotionally. That's their job. But some of them, you know what the worst thing is? Some of them aren't even real. That's the scariest thing, John. Quite possibly. No. Like what a lot of them are. Yeah. Not only real. Yeah, but become famous. Yes. That's that's true. Yeah that's true. But I think that's what makes it sad for me is when we go to context. Yeah, I, I've seen this happen to you.

I spend a lot of time analyzing online. I don't spend time actually online. I don't care for it much. Right. But I love the behind the scenes machinations of it. Yeah. So I sit with engineers, they teach me about algorithms. I said, really? Yeah, I love this. I love, love, love this, love it to bits and. one of the things I've. really loved is seeing how information gets disseminated, but specifically sent to different groups of people for. like a, like a really, really distinct purpose, you know? Right. And then I started, they showed it to me,

even on the tiniest things that you and I have done, for instance. Right. So I hosted the white House Correspondents Dinner. You might have as well. Half of my Correspondents Dinner was played on Fox. News, was played on conservative sites. Was right. Everything I said about Joe Biden, the Democrats, MSNBC, you. if you've watched Trevor Noah, you know, they really were it were yeah. Yeah. You're right. I never thought I'd say this, but Oh very well. This this is quite funny.

I guess I guess that's. what happens when you get him away from the Daily Show, right? Then. I mean, yeah, looks like it was woke up. You know, I guess every now and again, he can't be. Ironically, it was the Daily Show writers that I was. Oh, my. I mean, you wrote, you know, you wrote the crew, so. But it was. And then on the other side as well, people got the clips right, but they show who they sent it to. It's so weird. It's like it's not a they send it to people purposefully. Yes, but they also send partially. That's the key thing.

I think that's the most insidious. So back in the day, Jon Stewart is at a desk. and Jon Stewart says 123456789 ten. Right. You see that you might not like three, you might not like seven. But you saw that meant counted to ten. That's right. Now what they do is they go take the seven. Take the three, send it to all the people who hate Jon for saying those numbers. The other numbers. Let's get these people and we're going to split them. And so now what happens is you have a world where people hate.

other people not because they know them, but only because they know them. by a fraction of the thing they're saying or doing, which I think is. I think that's like it's even more terrifying because. Absolutely. Well, it's also what it what it tells you. is the principle is merely conflict. The principle is, yeah, is outrage and conflict. But, you know, I always. wondered where social media fit in. You know, those videos of like, a squirrel decomposing,

like where the squirrel is the content and you just see over time you're like that. Just every single part is going to be brought back into nature. So it's going to go right. Nitrogen. That's what the economy that we live. in, in terms of ideas, is not really an economy of ideas. It's an it's an economy of. fragments, of fragments of ideas that are not cohesive. or coherent or contextual, but they are monetized. And the aggregators come in something I actually want to throw on the show.

on the Mondays. Is this idea somehow that social media. resembles in any way free speech, or that it resembles in any way the town square? Because those are. those are. neutral vessels that you fill with ideas. So let's say I go to a town. and it's a place where people to come together and it's an, an amalgamation of ideas and thoughts and things and a gathering spot.

So I come in and I go, severance. Oh, my God, severance is so good. Yeah. And then a couple people come over and they hear about it, and they want to talk about it because they've got some opinions on it. And then one other person walks by and goes, you're a Jew. And I go, what? Go? Yeah, no, you're a Jew. You change your name, you're Jew. And I go, oh yeah, no, we're we're talking about San Francisco. Yeah. No, I just I was notified that you were here, and I just wanted to come in and go. You're a Jew. That's social media. That's the algorithm, right? Yeah.

So then I go, I think I'm going to leave. And I. as I'm walking away, the town square goes, hey, before you go, there's someone you might want to check out. It's the you're a Jew guy. And these little tribes, what they're trying to get you to do. is be provoked so that you stop and you engage some more. The town square doesn't benefit the longer you stay in an argument. Exactly. And it's such an interesting idea that we think it's free speech,

but it's not speech. It's ultra processed speech in. It's it's speech in the way that Doritos or food, It's something that has been designed by people in lab coats. to get past the parts of your brain that protect your mental health or your. But we don't think of it in that way. We think of it as a play into this, right? That we have, or an example of the highest aspiration.

of free speech, when in actuality it's toxic, designed as such, whatever the mental version of obesity. and diabetes is, that's what it's designed for. Yeah. And and I've only been thinking. about only because of, of where we're at with speech in this country. and how it's been co-opted as this incredible value on the right.

Yeah. They're only allowing it to go on the right because they view it. as helpful to their larger because. Right. Yeah. You know, societal ideological battles aren't capitalism, communism. or socialism, communism or any of those other kinds of democracy. Totalitarianism. Yeah. It's woke on woke. And for them, social media. is a powerful on woke multiplier. It amplifies that feeling for whatever reason.

In terms of virality, do you remember the it was another. I think it was a hearing where it was Facebook, it wasn't Twitter. And they made, Zuckerberg turn and apologize. Oh, yeah, I remember that. Yeah. You know, Tinder. What are you going to say to the daughters up there? They you, I think it was that they had purposefully targeted. 13 year old girls at their low ebb. Right. And I think it was Instagram. That was the worst offender in that. Yeah. Yeah.

And that, you know, that was back when he had the bowl cut. Yeah. Still like before he had the swag switch right. Yeah. Give me the Prince Valiant. But not so long. You know I don't want to look like a hippie. And then. and now they've given them all permission. to just be. Stop pretending like there's something about this moment. that I appreciate, because the undercurrent of corruption. and the underlying quid pro quo and transactional nature.

of the way the world works is now just. It used to be hidden, and every now and again. they would call them and go apologize to the girls. And now they're just like, hey, you're all right. And they've made it explicit. Yeah, it's now and without shame. It's in some ways they've come out of the closet. They're finally being yeah, themselves. They are. And now we know what we're up against.

Which I kind of you prefer that I prefer it. I would say, Trump for everything he's done or whatever I go. Trump has been a black light on America's democracy. Yes, yes. You know, so every everything for someone who stays in a lot of hotel rooms, that is not. and is. not the analogy, metaphor, whatever, I hope you go for there. And now I go, oh, he is that thing on your hotel mattress. that you didn't know was there, but had slept on for two nights.

We're going to continue this conversation right after this. short break. I remember. when I first came to The Daily Show, this is before I was, you know, it was when I came and I met you and we were doing segments together. You didn't want to be on Twitter, you didn't want to be on Instagram. You didn't want, you know, no, you you just had, like, it wasn't even, like a low thing. It was almost a it, you know, loathing at least means you like against it.

You almost had a. Yeah. This thing. Yeah. For me, it felt like socializing. Like, I don't. I like being on social media. Felt like socializing. Okay, I like purpose, I like purposeful. interaction, I like I like intention, I like projects, I like making things I like, you know, woodworking, music.

You still make furniture, by the way, I once, we moved, I no longer have my my furniture making equipment. Yeah. But I loved it, like, because I heard this about you, and I was like, yeah, this can't be. No, it real, it's real. What did you make? Oh, God. Dressers? No. John. Yeah. I thought you're going to tell me, like, a little. You don't like furniture? Furniture? Oh, yeah. Like big on. Yeah, yeah. I made, our our kids first changing table, and then we took a little pass on cut out. We used to have, cats.

And so we would cut out the shape of cats in the bottom of it so that they could go. in and go into their, into their litter boxes. Was this where did you get this from? How do you how do you just go into carpentry? The funny thing is you just go into it. So I'm always looking for ways to quiet my mind. that are not, you know, in the old days, it was drugs and alcohol. Right. So, you know, once you wake up in a crack house in East Saint. Louis at four in the morning and go, oh, I think I'm not making good decisions,

you try and come up with other ways that you can quiet the noise. Are you actually saying this or you? I am I actually saying that you woke up in a crack house and that's correct. Yeah. This was obviously years ago. I mean, for many, many years it wasn't I it's been a couple of weeks. No, it was I was just like, I knew you as a guy who smoked a lot. Yes. They were all.

The sort of. the the the product of a mind that I had trouble quieting. Right. And so when I'm busy, I am healthier. And when I am not busy, I was very unhealthy. Because you know your mind. It doesn't take long for your mind. to go from, you know, hey, that was a good set to you. Failed everyone that ever loved. Yeah, yeah. And and trying to find your way. And this is. I mean, I'm talking about.

early 90s, mid 90s like bad. So I had to find other ways. And then it was, you know, smoking helped different things. But I found these kinds of. hand to material projects, helped me disappear for hours. And it was it's like, I think what you would imagine a deprivation tank, there's a piece in it.

And when you have that piece, when you come out of it, it's not as though the benefit of it. evaporates, it stays with you. It's it keeps you sort of in a grounded state. And so, I think that's why I was always like, really drawn to it is. I could just disappear in it and, and you would build something. So, you know, the tangible part of having something.

that was the fruit of that labor was wonderful, like fun. It was a fun thing. But that's not why. The why is the hours. of measuring and sand ING. and fixing and fitting things together. And now I'm finding that in music, you know, I took up drums like. eight years ago. Seven years ago. Yeah. And that's another form of that. The benefit of just.

experiencing and feeling this other state. Right. My normal state of being vibrates too hot. It just does. I don't know how to stop it. So these things the old interventions, as George Carlin said, like they work for a bit. but after a while don't work. Yeah. And but you find these other ways and as I've gotten older, I think the frequency vibrate. at a slightly less intense frequency.

So that helps as well. But, you know, they're it's very self-destructive. to try and stop that if you don't do it in a way that, you know, has an idea towards longevity. Yeah, you can stop it. Yeah. But the things that stop it are generally the things that also stop you. Like, it's it's in some ways it's a chemotherapy. Like, you know, drugs and alcohol can stop you from vibrating like that.

But you have to you have to be cognizant of like, what else am I killing? Yeah. You know, these other things. Stop it in a much more, sort of. positive, productive, sustainable way. So that's, you know, that's been great. You've blown my mind. Really? Yeah. Because I've always seen you, especially in my life as, like a, like Yoda. I always call you. I call you Jewish Yoda. You know, he means that because I'm short and no credibly old, maybe 900.

You and slightly green. I don't know what the lighting's like in there, but the reflection off that puts a very different perceptions of Yoda. For me, it was because here I was, this random. straggler in the universe where I was just like, doing my thing. Yes, Yoda comes along and goes, hey, I'm going to teach you how to raise. a spaceship out of the mud, but I, I go, the force was strong in this. You see, I'm like, I don't even know what the force is. Oh, I don't know what the force is, captain.

Yeah, and then I learned how to use a lightsaber. And then the next thing you know, it's Darth Vader and Palpatine in my life. I'm getting death threats from the Starship Troopers. You're welcome. But I tell you, I think I told you was I got this is, you know, you're going to look at this like, oh, what a great opportunity. I'm like, but I know the truth. The truth is, it's really a Twilight Zone episode where, like, a guy who is been sentenced to guard this one thing. Yeah. Find somebody that he can hand the key to. Yeah.

Now it's you. Yeah, but you gave me. You gave me something that I think nobody gave you, I think. And that was the wisdom on the other side of it. Well, genuinely, you gave me whatever I, whatever I had accrued at at that point. because I also I had gone into it so blind. But that's what I mean. Yeah, that's what I also knew. No matter what, no matter how carefully we crafted it. Yeah. No matter how much you and I like, shared about frustrations or look out for this,

it's always going to be like, it's not like that made it easy for you. Yeah, but if somebody tells you there's a weight on the ground. and they tell you that. this weight will be the hardest thing you have ever lifted in your life, right. when you go to it. And it is the hardest thing you've ever lifted in your life. Your expectations have been met, and it doesn't mean. that the weight lessens in any way. It doesn't lighten the load, right? But it does mean that you are doing the work. This is why I knew when I saw you. You're doing it the right way about things. Yeah, you're doing it the right way so you don't.

While I was doing it, I wasn't going, this is going wrong. I was going, oh, man, this is hard. The Daily Show is easily the hardest thing I've ever done, like doing in life. Genuinely. I've had a hard life. But The Daily Show is the hardest thing I've actively done. Yeah, that is the hardest. Right? And in a work environment. Yeah. Completely. Completely. Yeah, yeah. And so the reason I say it blows my mind is because I go from the time I met you, like people would say, oh man, John used to be rock and roll. But when they said rock and roll,

I thought they just meant like leather jacket and smoking. Because I've genuinely I've met few human beings. who are more, let's put it this way. Yeah. First time we were going to do a segment on The Daily Show. You tricked me because you didn't tell me we were going to do a segment. Yes. All right. You should come and hang out. I came to hang out. Yeah, we just, like moseyed around the office. So you, you know, puttering from one parts of the other. You go down to the, you know, field department, you're going to do it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then we chat.

in the moments that you had free we chat, we chat, we chat, we chat. And then one of the conversations you said, what do you think of New York? And I said, wow, I don't know, man. The potholes are so what is this place when we start talking about? And you were like, what's it like where you from? Was like, well, the potholes on this bad. And we had this whole conversation. We had this. So and then you said, great, we need that on the show. Yes. That's good that you have a beyond it being a good bit. You saw something that I would have never seen. And it was a deeper commentary. on the idea of America's exceptionalism versus the world and what the.

I was just going, hey, man, the roads here are not what I expected. So when I hear you saying this, and I think for most people, if they go like Jon Stewart taking drugs, drinking in a hole, and then we. see this man who is easily and I say this to everyone, one of the wisest human beings I've ever met, that's very gentle, but genuinely and not wise in like a I know everything way, but rather. And you can look at a thing you don't know and go, I don't know anything,

but this is what I think. It might not Bob. Right. You know, which I. which is what I think a lot of the time wisdom is based on my life. This is how I'm going to perceive the situation, right? And take and take nothing for granted. because that's, you know, and that's where your upbringing in those things, there is a perspective to be given from. You know, it's a humility, right?

If you understand the fragility. of everything that you experience, you don't ever get to that place. It's sort of like the way I am with conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theorists will say like, hey, man, you know, I'm just asking questions. And I'm like, you're not actually just asking questions. Because if you were just asking questions, you'd want to listen for the answer. and you'd want those answers. When I talk to those people, you know, they're like, hey, man, you're, you're controlled opposition. Now, you used to question things, and I'm like, I still question things.

with conspiracy people. I'm not, in any way objecting to their skepticism. Yeah, I'm objecting to their certainty. Right. If you remain skeptical, but not just of the narrative, but also of the counter narrative, you have to. And that is borne of, in my mind, instability. I was born of instability. And so, in fact, I'm going to write a book called Born in Instability.

And it doesn't have the same. Where were you born? But I was born here in, Doctors Hospital, and it's not even there anymore. So you've you've literally just been what? My parents are. My father was from Coney Island, from Brooklyn, and my mother was from Washington Heights. So up I went to City College. I struggled to understand a lot of the time. I spent many years trying to process it, but I've struggled to understand. how you could see me and you when.

on the surface we have such different lives, right? Because I look at what you just did now, you just pointed. at your whole life like this, you know, by the way, let the record show I am correct. Directional. No, you are, you are, I am correct, but but what I what I find the paradox of John. Stewart for me is I've met few people. who have traveled less.

and yet have gone to more places. No, I mean this. I know people, I know people who have traveled the world. Yes. And have and have not and have no perspectives. and have no curiosities and have no learnings from it. So their bodies have gone to another country or another place, right? But their mind in their spirits has not. Right. You guys are saying yes. And yet I meet you and I've been to Buffalo, Buffalo and rod. You travel more now?

I hope so, yes. Okay. This is good. I'm just saying that it, No, I try to because of the. Yeah, because of the kid. They got older. Yeah. Okay, okay. And the time and all that. And we traveled more, in my diaspora, we traveled more. And so, I mean, in your diaspora, when I wasn't doing the Daily Show, when I wasn't doing. I've only heard of diaspora used, like, as an African thing. Oh, really? Yeah. It's a big Jewish thing. The Jewish diaspora, by the way. We'll get into that later. The Jewish diaspora thing. I've been really considering this in my head.

at some of you talk about later, and we should definitely talk about it. All right. You to talk about now, you don't want to right now. This time. Right now. So I've been thinking about this. This is in a larger context of good Jew bad you right. I'm not I'm not I'm clearly not religious. Okay? I sometimes admire people of faith, but I can't get there. Like, I know it's sort of like faking orgasms for me. Like there's a certain like. Yeah, like. And I'll do that. People will say like, oh, bow your head in prayer and I'll be like, no. And then would you know the moment of silence and I.

But in the silence I'm really like, I wonder, is anybody, oh, look at that dude. Or, you know, I'm not really silent, so I don't, I don't get it, but I am Jewish. Like, it just is. It is what it is. And it's born of that. That's my family. They were Jewish. Their parents were Jewish, whatever it was. But this idea somehow, and it ties into Israel that. whatever you were born as, you won't be safe.

unless you are somehow ensconced in some version. of an ancestral home, I think is a really dangerous precedent. I think the idea that we must go home like. this is my where I pointed. That's where I'm from. That's my home. Right? Like, I can I can triangulate where I'm at. This is where I feel most comfortable.

This is where. I'll always gravitationally come back to. I don't live in a diaspora. I've been to Israel. I was like, wow, that's impressive. I could see why they wrote the Bible here. It looks very. That's a lot of mountain. That's a lot of desert like. But I reject the idea somehow that. Communities of people aren't whole. unless they are able to repopulate.

some ancient version. of where they believe is their source. Does that make sense? It doesn't make sense. And I don't know if that's applicable to the African diaspora, but for me, I think it's a dangerous precedent. to tell people that they will never be safe. unless they are somewhere else.

I always feel like, well then the job is to make us all safe. Yeah. Because this is my home. Yeah. If, if that. So that's what I've been. Chappelle said something to that effect which I, which I really appreciated. He said we have to do a better job of making Jewish. And I'm paraphrasing our Jewish brothers and sisters feel. so safe that they do not need to defend Israel regardless of what it does, because they feel like that's the only place where they will be safe.

That's right. You know, which I think because it does, it puts you in a moment. where you say to yourself, I have to because they're fighting for me. Right? But that can't be because that's. then they have to be forced to dehumanize someone else. And that can't be so it's that cycle. of always believing that there is this,

this final move that we all have to make. And there is, you know, there is also a little bit of apocalyptic. rendering and all that which is there are many people who believe, like, all these pieces must be in place for the final fire. Yeah. That's, that's a strong incentive that I didn't know about. until I moved to America. Oh, they didn't know that was another thing where I was from. There was no evangelical group who was saying, we need this to happen in Israel so that the prophecies can come true.

I only learned about it when I got here as what is in. in terms of like African religious tradition. Yeah, right. How similar is it to kind of the different variations that you see here? Is it like, is it proselytizing? Is it sort of, you know, does it have as many different variations? Yes. Right. I'm not a religious scholar.

My mother actually is, but I'm not. that she went Judaism. She she she actually comparison. She actually. No, she actually did. I think one of the reasons. Not really I asked her about this as it was, I was like, why? Why Judaism? And she said, I was always seeking the source. I always wanted to go deeper. She's like, okay, if I'm at Christianity, I want to know, but where does Christianity come from? I'm going to go deeper and I'm going to go deeper and then you know what I mean? So now, like week in and week out, it's like her reading the Torah, sending me little scriptures. And when it's like, I know when Purim is, I know I have to be in the mix.

I'm always in the mix in that way. Right? You know, my mother sends me messages about knowing when for a different reason. So it's definitely as broad because, yeah, there were so many parts of African religion. that were stripped away by colonialism, right? Right. So colonization comes in. A lot of African religion gets stripped away. And so I think for the most part now you have a lot of hybridization, right? So there's still some people who go, like I still believe in my ancestors, even.

though like strict Christianity will say, you don't know, there's no such God. is your only thing you're worrying about, and you don't speak to your ancestors. If you're Catholic, you can speak to Mary, but no one else. And you know it's that type of thing. So and that for me, it was because I went to 4 or 5 churches every Sunday. So I lived in this most of my life. We went to I went to a Catholic school. Okay. Right. And then I went to a interdenominational church. But then I also went to an Anglican church, and then I went to. Methodist church, you know. Right. But the thing I found across all of them is they just have a slightly different.

bent on one part of the why, right? At some point they have a nexus that that combines all of them. Right. But the biggest thing I'd say that's a difference when you have. when you talk about the African diaspora is. I love that you had the blacks and Jews. because my mom always says that and because I always grew up saying that. And I remember having to explain this once. I was having a conversation with a friend. It was around the time I think, LeBron James had a clip of himself up.

and a video clip and he was saying, like, we're going to make that Jewish money, we're going to be the Jews. You know what I mean? It was a whole thing, right? And he got I mean, you can imagine. Yeah. Just like LeBron this. Come on. The anti-Semitic and and and then he put the video down to apologize. This thing was a whole thing. And I was talking to a friend of mine who lives in LA, and he said, man, I can't believe LeBron did this. And I said, I get what you're saying. And I'm not saying don't be offended. However, I think you are missing some context,

and some of the context you're missing is how Jewish people have been perceived. for the most part, not speaking for black people by black people. Sure, because a lot of black people have gone. There is only one other group we know of who has also been enslaved, who has also been like chased out of different parts and places. We've also been ostracized. We only know one group who's done. that, who we now perceive to be successful on the other side. Exactly. And so I know a lot of black people are going, man, we need to be we need to be the Jew.

When you black Jews, we need. And I'll try to explain to them, I was like, I get it from your perspective. You're not wrong, but I hope you do understand. that a lot of it in like parts of hip hop and a lot of it in black culture is. when when we used to get dressed on Sundays. and you would go to church, you always had to look good. Your parents would put you in your nice clothes. Right? And kids in the township in South Africa would say, oh, go get Jewish, which means wearing your Jewish. up, up, up, up, up, up, up. And it was they said that because has seeds oh always in like a right right.

And you know people would we would grow up just be like, yo these people are blind. Hope you're not. People are dapper. So you got your hair on point. Go get Jewish. That's what I'm talking. You know. So that context I think is, is important. But but I think the main differences just go back a little bit. Some of it I experience. and I say all of this with the caveat that I don't speak for everyone ever. Right. But I did notice in in the United States. there was a similar idea around Africa and African Americans.

The motherland. Right. So there was this idea where people would go, you are not from here, right? People say, go back to where you came from. That's right. And so a lot of black Americans would go, I will never be safe. Yes. Until I can go back to where I'm from. That's right. In the same way that you're saying many Jewish people might go, I will never be safe unless there is a place that is distinctly. and specifically made for me. Right.

And then what would happen was, you know, a lot of African Americans. would come to Africa. And I think on the one hand, they would be shocked by how it's not home right. But there's one part of it that they would get, which is, oh, this is why I eat this food, or this is why I hum like this. All right. These are my people who have informed me before I even knew I was going to exist. Right. And there's a certain solace that comes in that. Yes. And to your point, I think sometimes we focus. a little too much on the physical thing as opposed to the real thing.

Yes. The culture that is the that's the thing that should never die. That's right. Did you get what I'm saying? And that's place less. That's that's that you can put in your knapsack. Yeah. When you, you know, that's and that's the thing. people try to wipe out by the way. Right. And it's the thing also that and when it mixes. and when it create something. new and unique and beautiful. and it has so many colors to it and it reminds me that.

so much of all this, you know, when you say, like, oh, they viewed Jews. a certain way or they might view blacks this way or African-Americans this way. No one has discernment for what they aren't. Your only discernment is for like I can if I can look at Jews and be like. Sephardic Ashkenazi reform that like I can break down. I was in a love that no one has discernment for what they aren't. You can't. It's the hardest. Yeah.

Because it's. Yeah, it's hard enough to have empathy for what you are. You don't, let alone discernment. It reminds me of someone said this once we having a conversation and someone said. I was a white person and they said white liberal was very liberal, very, very, very liberal. Just very liberal. Although not for the school. Not our school. You shouldn't please. Well, that's different because it's the kids. You got to understand. They know each other. They have to be together. No, they know it's very tricky. Other thing too, is you don't want other kids slowing them down. It's it's because they're so unfair to them to be. they want to be gastroenterology.

It's really unfair. You know, Max, it's really so smart. And I Max loves everyone and Max loves everybody, loves everyone, loves everyone. I want him to have more black friends. He has to. You know he has. He really does. We take you know, we shop at Benetton because. because of the role. And we're chatting and this person went, you know, some people. cross the road when a black man walks down towards them, it's like 3 a.m. and they cross the road and I would never cross the if I'm walking at 3 a.m.

and a black man, you know what I do? I walk, I keep my head up. And it was so funny because it was one white person was only black people. that are talking to. And then we went, well, I mean, sometimes you got to cross the road. And they were like, what? And we went, well, what kind of black person? And they're like, what do you mean? And we said, well, you see you just saying a black person, right? I know for a fact every black person walking down. the street will look at a black person and not just see what you just said, not that's a black, but you be like, I don't know if I. if I want to take a chance here, but that discernment.

is something that a lot of people don't understand cross-culturally. Mike Huckabee was on the show once and he was on I thought you said. Mike Huckabee, Mike, Mike Huckabee, my Huckabee, I my mind for a second. Huckabee. Yeah, my Mike Huckabee, I had a a b. he was on and he was on one of his, jeremiads of culture and how I think Beyonce, I had just come out with it, was the album where she was expressing her physical love for Jay-Z. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, my surfboard, surfboard, all these things.

So he was riding on that board writing, riding on that board. This had upset Mike Huckabee. terribly. because of the children. Trevor. The children love Beyonce. Yes. And now the children are going to know that sometimes. when a man loves a woman very much, they use them as surfboards. You understand? It's a very dangerous precedent that's being set. So he's talking about the terrible nature.

of this kind of sexually explicit and suggestive. Mike Huckabee plays bass in a band right? He had on Ted Nugent. Ted Nugent has a song called, Wang Dang Sweet Poontang, and he has another song about banging like a 15 year old girl, Cat Scratch Fever or something like that, that they played.

And I said, Mike, you. you love that job, Ted. He's a good old boy. You don't understand. It's just. But dead surfboard. I mean, come on then, you fucking. But the sweet poontang. Come on. You know, Ted, he's a good old boy. And what people don't understand is, like, they might a car filled with blank people. with a lot of bass on it might scare the shit out of a white person, but do they understand their pickup truck with the gun rack?

Yeah. Blast country. is something that other people don't understand and are fearful of. But that car could pull up to Mike Huckabee's picnic and it'd be fine. Yeah, ignorance is epidemic. Most people aren't malevolent, but it's. We can't discern the difference. I sat with a was on the Brian Show. The barbershop. Oh yeah. The show shabiha. Yeah, they went through. They were all talking about their barbershop. It's like the. It was like me. Did you get a line up or did you like, did you actually get your hair.

No no no. Oh okay okay. They don't know what to I don't even know what you. But we're all sitting around and it was I think Jerrod. Carmichael and Draymond Green and LeBron and Marv Carter. And you know they're telling their barbershop stories and they're like. look at me. And I'm like I'm only here to collect the rent like I don't. That's what that's what we do here. But it was so interesting when we were talking as Draymond. said to me goes jus man. You look out for each other. And in the moment I was like dumbstruck.

of this idea of like Jews. We look out for each other as though again, somebody who's been faced with not having discernment their whole life. Right, who so easily passes. into the realm of and oh, by the way, I don't either, but that's fine. And that's. so much of the issue is we just don't. It was like in the war on terror where we were like,

you know, we were bombing the shit out of country. before we even knew, like, wait, Shia and Sunni? What? Yeah. There's different. What if we were able. to understand that lack of discernment. without placing such negative value on it? In other words, if we were more understanding of prejudice. and stereotype and less tolerant of racism,

we'd start to understand that prejudice and stereotype. are functions mostly of ignorance. and of experience. Racism is malevolent, right? But the other is way more natural. But we react as though it might. metastasize immediately. Yes. And so I think we throw up barriers to each other in a way that.

we're crossing the street before we have to. And, and the anger that, that in genders is, is, is part of what builds, I think, those walls. I think it's also because it's exactly what you're saying. But again, more than most countries in the world. Yeah. And I think it's starting to spread not because of social media, but I think more than most countries. in the world, in America, that's been weaponized. So when I was doing The Daily Show, I barely got time to really go home.

to South Africa. Like, you know, it's. it's a slog and then you need the time to relax and rest and blah, blah, blah. But now that I've had more time to go back and just like pop back and pop. back, right, I, I realized how much nuance I've even rubbed myself of. because America wants a snap judgment, you know? So America immediately wants the you said it. It's over. As opposed to why did you say it? What did you mean by it? Oh, this is how it can be interpreted.

It's slow, it's laborious, it's oftentimes boring. But you know what it is, John? It's context. Right? It is completely, completely. Did you just do a young man? It's context. You just did a callback. But you just listen just around the park to where we started for God's sakes. I think I think that's right. Yeah. And I have notes of grace. Yeah. I think that's the, the missing ingredient of context is. Oh, I like that actually is often grace and the forgiveness.

Going back to Dave, you know he said something once. I can't remember what we were talking about. He goes, so important man. Forgive yourself. You know how it gets. Lead in. Give yourself give yourself. And I was just I just thought that was such a. incredibly. Wonderfully foundational concept. because so much of getting back to sort of the vibration of the brain.

that that you need to calm is a lack of grace for yourself. Yeah. A lack of forgiveness for yourself, for mistakes, for missteps, for. is trying to discern. the context of those missteps and what was done of ignorance. and what could be cured and what could you learn? Not in a performative way, but in a way that you could then. a seed that you could plant in yourself,

that you could nurture and grow into something. Right? Yeah. And that feels like such an important step of that. It's funny you say that the. most difficulty I had on The Daily Show. was when I got into trouble. for saying the thing that I wasn't saying. Oh, really? Do you know what I mean? Yes. I could handle. someone not liking my opinion. Yes. An opinion we all have. That's right. I don't agree with this. Okay, good for you.

Let's have a conversation. Did you feel it was purposeful? The misunderstanding. Because my guess is some people didn't understand. Some people understood and weaponized it because they saw advantage. You know, I think some people, it was actually the people who I think. I was speaking with or for or, you know, in, oh, there's those moments where you go, yeah, no, no no no no no, no, I'm no. What do you mean? You know, it's like you, you played soccer. You know what? It's it's like it literally felt like sometimes you're crossing the ball.

Yeah. And your team goes. You try to kill the both of them and you go, no. I also understand you're talking literally about, like, your allies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get I remember saying this to the team at the show all the time, right. I'd say if there was one thing I would change. about American politics, especially for liberals, especially for liberals, is. liberals have. a really, but for lack of a better term,

it's like it's a really black and white system of being in and out. And I find Republicans or conservatives, maybe because they're more religious, they believe more in the story of redemption. They believe more in like you didn't mean that. Well atone. And you can come back in. That's interesting. You know. Do you know how many times I heard. very Christian people say, I would say, how could you support Trump? And then they would say to me, and I get it completely. They'd go, he's not a perfect vessel. And they'd say, go read the Bible.

The Bible is littered with stories of imperfect men. delivering a perfect message, and I'd be like, damn! And I would envy that for liberals because I would go, right. You know, many times liberals would not consider the possibility. that the person they are in lockstep with slipped. or tripped, or it didn't actually be an imperfect person. You might find. they did something that made sense and it affected you in a way that you thought. And so here's how the liberal mind.

Fights back against that very message. So as you're talking right, it's about the grace of faith. and how it teaches you to forgive and, and to feel redemption, through imperfect vessels. Yeah. It's such an important part of growth. And as you're talking the whole time, I'm like, you know, the Bible, you know, talks about slavery. I mean, the Bible, you know, just literally instructions for slavery in the Bible. So, I mean, you know, you use that as a so you immediately.

and it is it's a, it's a flow. But it's a thing in my mind. And it's why faith. it's why I'm so faith resistant. I can't let my brain stop. the litigation. I'm full of faith. Yeah I can't, you see, that's a weird one. Is like, I, I'm not particularly religious, but I'm right. An example is like, I played football, soccer. Every week I play here. Yeah. Still the knees.

Driver, we're trying our best. Yeah, John. We try it. You don't play at all. Yeah. Once you hit 60, you. You said this to me about 40, by the way. Once you hit 40. No, no, I still play and I joke one of my. one of my best friends now, I met playing soccer here in New York at pier 40. And, we have this team. It is like the United Nations. I mean, Algerians, Nigerians, Ghanaians, French,

South Africans, Moroccans, Australia, you name it, they're on. they're on this team from everywhere around the world, every walk of life. And we played together. And my friends know I love being on the team. that is considered dysfunctional and useless, because I have faith that every player is trying to do the right thing. Right. I genuinely believe in it, and I've noticed that sometimes. what will happen is a player will be on the other team. They will do something that they thought would go well. They try to cross the ball,

they try to shoot, they try to pass, they try to tackle, they fail. and their teammates will treat them like they are against them. And I have such. an allergic reaction to this because I go, no, we are on the same team. Are we on the same team? Yes. What were you trying to do that? Were you trying to kick it into our goals? Right. No, you were not. All right, next time, then angle your foot. And if the person's receptive, I go, yeah, we made a mistake. Let's move on. Yes. I don't think liberals do that, to be honest with you. I think there's like a, there's a, there's a real like,

well not not only are you out. Yeah. You're on the other team. Right. Which is even crazier to me. Imagine playing a game, John. Imagine playing a sport every time. Every time your wide receiver drops a catch, every time. your point guard tosses the ball out of bounds, not only do you bench them, you bench them to the other team. That is an unsustainable way of growing a coalition, right? Do you know what I mean? It doesn't encourage people. The only thing that that because.

and again. you have that litmus test like if I'm looking at. So I'm thinking about the right now and before I grant them the, redemption arc, I think about the vindictiveness. of the Trump era. that there's very little of it, you know, there are really no. deadly sins in the Trump era in terms of that. When you talk about faith and he can be convicted of this. Yeah. He can.

Yeah. And evidence of, unfaithfulness and, sexual harassment, all these different things. And he's an imperfect vessel. Yes, but the one cardinal sin is. fealty is. if you're not loyal enough, you're so wrong. So they do have none of that. It is just the it. That's where religion comes back in, right? You. Thou shalt have no other god but me.

That's right. That is, that places him beyond the scope of redemption and into the pantheon, because I there was a part of me that thought, oh, it is true. Like I've been involved in some liberal movements, like we have a rescue farm. So I was involved in animal rights. I remember when you were we met some of those chasing a bull. Frank, let me tell you. His name is Frank. Let me. Let me tell you something, John. Out in Brooklyn, red hook, you know this. This is this is what I love about our lives. Is that whether you intended it or not, we are forever intertwined. Yes.

You know, we are trees that have branches that have met. And we continue to grow in different directions. Love always have those branches that connect us. I remember the day like it was yesterday. I'm at the Daily Show. and I start getting text messages. all concerned, but in different ways. Some saying. is Jon Stewart okay? What is happening to Jon Stewart.

is and I remember like some people going. that genuinely some people thought you were having your your snap moments. Yeah. You'll run down the street naked. because all some people saw shave the head Jon Stewart running down. Yeah, we were in we were out. along about a a bull had gotten loose. Yes. And from where? By the way, it's an excellent question, Trevor. You know, I try not to ask. Okay. Those that okay. The bull. I don't know where he came from necessarily.

Okay. Because I was like I don't see bulls in New York. It's sort of like they're like brothels, you know, they're there. You don't know the address. Okay. Slaughterhouses are the same. Got it. There's a lot of festivals going on where. they're going to need a lot of goats, and they're going to need them fast, and they don't necessarily want them inspected. So, Frank had gotten away from one of these slaughterhouses. and was running a Franks, the bull, Franks, the bulls. Okay, got it, got it. He got out. Now he's being chased. And it's always that news story. You know, they they a bull running through Brooklyn.

Well I never it's a local news catnip. It's also catnip for my wife. who looks at me and looks at our trailer and goes, if we leave now, we can get to Brooklyn. in an hour and 15 minutes or leave, win new Jersey, leave our farm. We can get there. And if they catch Frank, we can get him and we can take him to a sanctuary. We can get him so that he's not hamburger. So.

and I'm assuming this is an animal trailer. It's like a specific it's a dotson. It's a four door. So as long as you get. No, it's a trailer. Oh, look, I had to learn all this shit, too. And by the way, like driving. a trailer in New York City is not. It's. No easy. It doesn't seem like. Like it's fucking gigantic. It's attached to your. We had a pickup, so it's attached to the pickup. So you are 25, 30ft of vehicle and they don't.

necessarily have to get backing it up is a giant pain in the ass. We get out there too. They finally corral this bull and they bring him in. And we are able to get to the facility where they're holding him. They're holding him at like a dog shelter, like he's literally in one of the, the crates and able to back through and, you know, call the different arrangements and. kind of maybe you try not to pay the people that, the boys escape from because that's considered.

anathema for the movement or whatever. Okay. So but we we get them. There's a bull in our trailer, and I've got to drive them through the Lincoln Tunnel. And it's just, you know, it's he you know, he's not a happy bull. Yeah. He doesn't want to be there. He doesn't he doesn't. You can't say to them like, buddy, you don't understand how. things are going to get better. Fights are about to get so good for you. You don't understand how good we offer you, Frank. But I have to tell you in terms of personal satisfaction.

Yeah, off the charts. Off the charts. It is like the peak of, dare I say, manliness. Through our time, John, if you seen if you all. We were trying to get him into the trailer, I think you would have. It doesn't matter. It does it. Humankind is defined by the moments where we have captured large beasts. But I think to ride or eat, not to take to a park.

Still. Still for me. All right. You get to say what I. Yeah. Captured a wild bull. That's right. In the streets of Brooklyn. But let's go back to what you're saying about, about the Republic that you said you've dealt with some groups. I'll preface it with this. Yeah. One of my greatest joys. about getting to go back to South Africa and spend more time, then come back to the US. And, you know, I live in New York, but I spent time the Aspen. is that it's it's reminded me. to why am I brain differently.

Right. If you live somewhere and if you've experienced something. the way it has always been, you think that that's the way it is? Yes. Right. I find the more you travel and even this is even with languages, the reason I like learning languages is because they remind me that. the order of words is only what I've been told. You are here with me today. You believe that has a certain order, but it's completely. and in another language it is today is you here on with me, me. And it's like, that's fine, that's fine. Right? One of the big ones I realized for me personally, was.

In South Africa, we spend more time. I would argue most people spend more time shitting on their political party. than they do thinking about like, the other, you know what I mean? And I think to what you're saying and I've seen. I mean, we've both gotten flack for in different ways. There is an there's a, there's a certain allergic reaction. that you get in America when you do that. And this I can argue, Republican or Democrat, there's like a betrayal.

Oh no question. How could you do you understand that we are at war right now? How dare you? How can you? You are undermining and you go like, no, no no no no no. I'm saying yeah. We again, we come back to the analogy of sports. Hey, we need to pass the ball. If LeBron says to his team, guys we're not defending and someone says, whoa, what are you talking about? What are you what are you playing for them. For them now what are you assaulting now? What do you what do you mean when you know? And it's like, no, I don't know that that's.

Have you found a soul for that? Have or do you just. You just take it on the chin and you keep it moving. I think you take it on the chin and you keep it moving. I mean, I think the the way that I try and, like you made Biden old. I know, but by mentioning it, I handed the election to Donald Trump. You did, I believe, his his niece, Mary Trump, referred to me. after that as a threat to democracy. Which I thought was an appropriate level of. of threat assessment. It's one of those things.

So there's there's it's sort of there's two things to it. One is we both operated kind of artisanal shit talkers like that is what we do. It's what I do. I have an opinion. I try and frame it within a certain comedic tableau. So when people want to talk shit back, I don't have a whole leg to stand on. To be like, what? Yeah, how dare you talk shit to the man who just talked shit. about the thing that I wanted to talk shit about.

The second part of it, though, is the reptilian nature of people. When they feel that fear, they're very comfortable. attacking who they think are the other team. Yes. And they think that if you give them any solace, they don't view it as that might be a constructive, a constructive. lens by which to view like a stand up comic. What's the worst thing that a standup comic can be? Fragile.

If the audience is worried for the comic, yeah, that's you're not gonna survive. Well, that's what Biden was in that moment. He would come out, and I don't care who you were. Like, you were worried. No. You were. You felt it visceral by. mentioning that as a way of maybe saying to people, either. a prove that this is the wrong emotion that I'm feeling or be. get someone in there that has the wherewithal to take on this, I would think would be viewed constructively,

but it was viewed utterly destructively, you know, in terms of it bothering me like nobody likes to be yelled at a lot. But I think I've been doing it long enough that the the thickness of the skin, like. I don't dwell on it. And maybe the way I would have when I was younger. But the second part of it is. I remember the war on terror. I like America in that fight over Al-Qaeda. Big fan, but I criticized America quite frequently.

That doesn't mean I wanted al-Qaida to win, or that doesn't mean that I think it means that I hold my beliefs and the people. that I want to carry the flag for that to a very high standard. and and that standard, if not met. I think in the same way that I try to hold myself to a high standard. Yeah. And when failing to live up to it and very critical and, and try and grant that forgiveness.

But the point being. If you love something, if you. believe in the idea of something. You have to stress test it. It's like anything else, man. What's what's the toughest part about comedy. is it's not the writing, it's the rewriting. Yeah, it's the editing. And why do you do that? You do that because you think you can make it better. And that's the whole of it.

And to have that viewed as. the antithesis of that, that as though that sabotage. I think is so wholly wrong headed that I don't even know what to make of it. The whole like you both sides are, is that you're saying they're the same. I'm not saying they're the same at all. And anybody who watches me with any discernment. over the course of forget about one episode over a career would know that. don't go anywhere because we got more.

What now? After this? Pretty. And did it surprise you that at The Daily Show. there are so many fail safes of fairness and context? Like, that's what people say. You guys take everything out of context, like have you met chads? Like, I'm Talia, who's a guy who does our research. He's been there forever. He's an institution at the show. These are these are the credentials of Adam Charcol.

Chad's was the keynote speaker. at the World Fact Checkers Conference. This is these are the levels we're talking about, like, yes, this is a puzzle that we trust. Yes. And this is a person. And you know as well as I'd like, if you work or hosts. The Daily Show, you will at some point have to fight with this man. That's right. And and he will say, you can't really say that because the source that that's coming, man, let me tell you some truth. That's a liberal, you know, you got it. You can't trust that fact. Let me tell you something. Yeah, but what he really taught me.

more than most human beings, he taught me how to deconstruct data. He taught me how to deconstruct information. He taught me how to make the argument stronger, as opposed to relying on the first instinct of the argument. Right. Because he says that you don't say to him, what are you both sides of it? You're playing for the other team? No, he's challenging you to be better. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. They thrive in spaces where you can say whatever you want.

and intimidate others into acquiescence or silence. Where they don't thrive are places where there are evidentiary standards and, litigation and proceedings. Right. An interview is a place of where someone's going to ask you. real questions, is a place of evidentiary standards and litigation. So that's not a comfortable space for them. Yeah, because they have a goal in mind and they want to get there.

How else can they be? George Soros is the most evil man in the world because he spends. millions of dollars influencing elections and say it with a straight face? How in the world if you say to them, look, the bureaucracy is is not the issue with our government. These are individuals oftentimes really committed, really smart. working to execute the wishes of the Congress by you demonizing them.

It's you're the guy yelling at the Southwest Airlines counter. Yeah, right. Not realizing it's corporate. Yeah, but they do know. they do it for a purpose. They need scapegoats to get. So if you say to them you're the Department of Efficiency, but you've just cut 20% of this, what are the metrics. that you use to determine waste, fraud and abuse? And their response is always the same. Oh, looks like the force that's get the gravy train stopped running.

Yeah. Looks like you don't want that. You don't want this gravy train. And you're like, that's not what I asked you. What I asked you was show us transparently. why this is more efficient. Their response is always straw man demagoguing. because they don't want to litigate the reality of it. They just want to steamroll to the vision of the world. where if you say die, they go, oh, so,

you don't want a meritocracy? When did we have a fucking meritocracy? Honestly. Like when when is hiring ever not been subjective and done by people. that are more comfortable with people kind of like themselves? And by the way, getting back to the stereotype. argument, like, and we should have grace for that. Anybody who's ever been in a high school. cafeteria knows there's a lot of self sorting that goes on in the world. Gladwell was on the podcast. He had a brilliant analysis of that, and he said,

people are quick to talk shit about de and whether you're for or against. I've never liked the label of it and I don't like the intention. because I go, you're not. You're not saying we're going to widen the aperture to catch those we've missed. We're not going to watch the South African comedian and just put him in the pile. Yeah, because I could have been shit. And you watched. Then you went like, good luck to that kid. Here's what I could have said. You know we need black guy. Oh, wait, that guy's actual African black guy. Oh, wait, black guy I think is three points. African black. I think that might be seven policy, but it's the aperture.

And I think that's where people make the mistake. If you're actually trying to make sustainable change, you look at what you try and look at what you're missing, right? If you don't, you look at the labels. of what you're missing to try and fill up the gaps. But what he talked about was, I mean, it was so brilliant. Classic Gladwell. He went, everyone talks about who gets universities. All these black kids are getting in. And these kids because of, you know, admissions that have lowered the bar, lowered the bar. He goes through the sports that get you scholarships and he goes,

yeah, lacrosse, fencing, fencing, ice hockey, ice hockey, ice skating, lost. And he's like, who chooses these sports? Yeah. Who chooses which sport gets you into a college? If you really slick at what you do, you get around saying the thing, but you make sure you doing the thing right. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. You find a way to go. Oh, yeah, let's let's do you have an outcome? That's where, to be honest with you, that's. where I think the Democrats are shitty, actually, no question.

I actually think democracy is like politicians are shitty. The Republicans are Malcolm X by any means necessary. However, they have to get it and they've got a plan. And the Democrats. You know what I just thought, oh, sorry, someone's going to clip that line. The Democrats or Republicans are Malcolm X, someone's going to clip that. and they're just going to put it up. Like, see, even Jon Stewart knows we're the ones trying to free the people. on the Republicans, you see. And they're going to play you again. The Republicans are called the Mo bucks.

The Republicans are Malcolm X, the Republicans are Malcolm X, and the Democrats are a black square on their Facebook page. There's a performance to it. The Democrats are the audacity of hope and the governance of timidity, like it's the timidity of what's possible as opposed to what should be done. Right. So those two things, it's not a fair fight. So with the by the way, I try and talk about it.

now is in economic terms, don't think about it as, women, black people, poor people, veterans think of it as emerging markets. Oh, I love that. If you're a businessman. who doesn't want to exploit emerging market, that's hilarious. That's how you, you know, it's it's oh, man, that's hilarious. But what they'll do to that is again, they'll Strom at it. Oh, so you just don't you don't care who flies the planes as long as they're black. It's like when they say, can a black man be president? You're like Barack Obama. Yes. Mr.

T probably not as easily like there's discernment, but what they're looking for is to look at where are places, because what is that. do when you start to build up these supply lines that have withered, it increases competition, it increases the meritocracy, it doesn't decrease it. And they like to pretend that hiring decisions. in the good old yeah, yeah, that was merit. People didn't hire their friends or their friends sons.

or some good old boy that they played golf with at the club. No, it was on merit, and I don't know if you remember, but the world worked perfectly. Then. That's one of. the biggest things I try and explain to people about Elon Musk. Peter Thiel to a lesser extent, but still, the boys who came from South Africa. Oh, God. That's right. Yeah, they they've all been touched. I'm fascinated by it because. I don't think it's coincidence. that these guys have all lived in and around apartheid South Africa, right.

And have now gone into the world. and are starting to explain the vision of how it should be. Yeah, yeah. And many, many of the elements sound exactly like apartheid South Africa. And what you're saying now. is one of the biggest slights that a lot of white people felt in South Africa, the ones who weren't honest cause. a lot of honest ones were great about it, but the ones who weren't honest would go. you could. You used to be able to get a job in this country. And I remember asking my mom once, I was very young and I said, mom, I,

I asked that she she wouldn't say shame. This is what she'd say would be at the traffic lights and there'd be. a homeless person black, you know, but the white ones, she always say shame. And I said to one day I said, mom, you give money to both. But you always say shame when you give it to the white homeless guy. Why? And she said, you know, I baby, because. they don't know how to be poor. And I was like, damn, that's harsh. And she said, and I was like, what are you? I said, what do you mean by that? She said, it's not just that they don't know how to be poor beauty,

but they've been told that the world was supposed to work a certain way. Yeah. And now that it's not working that way, I can't imagine what it feels like, she says. But as black people, we've been told that our job is to suffer. And so we suffer, honey. We suffer and we try to not suffer, but we believe as black people, which means we we suffer. We are suffering. And she said, so I feel so bad for them because the only thing worse. they should have worked out. She says the only thing worse than being in a bad position.

is being in a bad position. When you were told that there was no bad position, right, that you were. the default inheritor of the kingdom, and now you go to your point. It's because of the Da. It's because of the it's because now we're going to see with young men, women are going to get jobs. Oh, it's because they're women. Look, now they see what happened. They all these women are going to call title nine all that, and all of a sudden. they start kicking the shit out of men academically. And everybody's like, see the, the terrible, the trials and tribulations of the American male.

And you're like, right? Because. now there's competition. and competition in the thing, by the way, that we were never better at them, at. They were better than women at academics. This is every study that has shown. It is like men, brain throw, run, catch. Very good, very good. No we can't. There's some of us who can concentrate. But for the most part, man brain like. Right. You know, young boys shouldn't be in class early in the day, right? They say if a school was designed perfectly, it would be boys would go in.

Yeah. All they would do is run. Just run nonstop for at least an hour, just run like crazy. Then they would learn, right? Whereas girls can go straight to learn. So the irony in all of it for me is. they were always going to kick ass academically, because that is what their brain is designed for, right? Right. They just weren't allowed into it before, you know? So now you go, oh why, why their sons like yeah. they just want to the exclusion has to be set up as the default setting. Otherwise it doesn't work.

And I think also the other argument that goes through there is. how can you punish people who didn't create the system in the first place, but just benefited from it and bringing this back to South Africa. So that's something that, you know, Elon is now on a thing in other countries. He wants to tell AfD and Germany it's time to get over. He's doing it fully. We're going to give them refugee status. We're going to bring them all over. Yes. And for like a half a day, there were a few white South Africans who were like, yeah, this is great.

And then they said refugee and then people explained what that would mean. It's like, you just leave your shit, you lose your citizenship. Uhhuh. And you just come to America, right? And get temporary status. And like, within a day and a half, some of the. biggest Afrikaner organizations came out and they were like, hey, we actually like it here. I don't know if, you know, we own like 70% of the bar. They were like, look, we don't want to be rescued. We just I think what you need to understand.

is it's not about rescuing us, pussy. It's like the amount of just recognizing we're the real victims of apartheid. There you go, my friend. What are you doing? There you go. You know, it felt like to me, it sounds like people on a cruise ship sending out S.O.S. is saying that they were refugees. And then the helicopter flying in going. Wait, you on the slide? Are you, we're at the buffet. We're not a refugee. Wait, what? And you're like, I thought you were oppressed. They're like, yeah, they said it closes at ten and it now closes at nine.

It's like, well, I don't think that's oppression. I think it just got a little. Yeah. So what do they do with. advantage like that? Do the white South Afrikaners now need a truth and Reconciliation commission? Do they need to go and cry and go sometimes. Now, when I go places, people look at me funny. I think, to be honest with you, you know, to go back. to what we've been saying about social media, to go to what we're saying about, dialog, discourse, etc.. Right.

And I do put a lot of this blame at the feet of social media. And I think the media media got so addicted to the teat. of social media that it started to follow the same circadian rhythms. Thousand people tweets. Jon Stewart offended me. Trevor Noah is an anti-Semite. The news picks it up right? That makes it a thing, then brings it back this way. That's right. And then now the social media gets bigger than the news goes. It's similar to weapons of mass destruction. Oh, we heard there were weapons. The New York Times said they were weapons. We must invade because of the weapons. But it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait.

But this is right. The you were the guys who told them there were weapons, you see. Right. So I think in that. So I think there are many I'm lucky that I get to see them. There are many white South Africans who go, oh, this is bullshit. We now live in a democracy. Things got fit and I'm still in a much better position. Even if I'm poor, I'm in a better position than the average black South African. in terms of poverty, access to work, whatever. But the. voices, John, the thing that I get particularly pissed off about. is that there's a there's an insidious voice.

that knows that this can be used. to destabilize so that someone can be enriched. That's the whole purpose. So you see Elon Musk show me a single cause that Elon Musk. is supporting that does not, in the end, benefit him financially. Then I will go, okay, maybe he does have a value. Where's he fighting in Europe? Predominantly Germany. Where's the place where. he's come up against some of the biggest union violations of workers rights?

And what do you get rid of in the government? All the agencies that were regulating his businesses. So no, you're dead right. The question is going to be not enough to say that. the exclusionary structures of society. are no longer operational. How do you repair them in a manner that is still. equitable? Right.

So South African, I don't know at all. But if 70% of the farms are still owned, right? Yeah, there are white people. You can't just walk in and eminent domain it you can't just walk. in and go, well, it should be 7030 the other way. Right. And so that's what we're going to do. So what do you do. How do you repair systems. without being punitive. to those who may not have had a hand in in all of that? And is that the key?

It's sort of like, look, we can all at the beginning of, of, of every, you know, government meeting honor the indigenous peoples. that came before us, but nobody's giving the land back. So I go. again, visiting another reality with your eyes open. makes you realize that there is no one reality right now. If you suggested that in most if you can. you imagine if you said to Americans, hey, let me ask you a question.

All 330 something million of you, this is your country. Why is it that the oil underneath it can belong to one person, right? He has his straw and he could give you a milk jug to drink your milkshake. And, Why? Why is that allowed? And some would be like. No, because it's, you know, hardest to drill and you got to get to. And I go, yeah, yeah, I get all of that. But I'm, I'm just saying acknowledge that you've accepted a reality. You know, when you realize is when you follow its ultimate conclusion.

Water. Like if you said, okay, Trevor, I'll give you some oil, I'm like, what do I do with oil? I don't know what to do with oil, but water. Now, the same trajectory has started moving. Right now, more and more water is owned by corporations. Yes. And slowly, slowly, the municipal water supplies are getting shitty. They're not looked after as well. Now, your tap water is not as drinkable and saltier. Yeah, less and less American water is. Which, by the way, it was the it was the a standard. a lot of people may not know this. And a lot of people may take it for granted.

because they've always been drinking the water from the tap. It's not normal ever in the world. Right. Quality goes down at some point. You have to buy bottled water. At some point you have to buy water, but no one goes. Where does the water come from? Why are we even paying for it? And people go, but Trevor, you got on. Then I go, okay, let's play this game and go to the ultimate conclusion. What if I found a way to extract oxygen from the air? What if I found a way? What if I made a machine that could suck all breathable oxygen out of the air?

And I now had it in my machine. I had it in my machine. And you? Health has it. You've cornered the market. Cornered the more reasonable air I've cornered them on. Let's say the machine's not. It's not perfect right now. It can only do, like a 100 block radius. Right? But in that 100 block radius, I have the air. Breathable air? Yeah. Do you think my neighbors would agree. with the notion that they should now pay me to breathe? Would that be. Would that not be reasonable?

John, I worked hard for this oxygen. I extracted it, and yet, if you did it. a month. later, it's it was just be the way it is. When people go, you buy oxygen. Yeah. You buy the oxygen. The oxygen to know a corporation. And number one provided you would developed. We do have a baseball league for kids who are from disadvantaged backgrounds. I hope you know that we sponsor the baseball league. and we have a line of blueberry. I say oxygen for the very rich people.

I know I got let you go at some point, but, if you had, a magic wand, what's one thing you'd think you'd change? I know one thing won't change at all, but in this moment in time, I would use it to make more magic wands. You see, this is why you're brilliant. Well, the. temptation is always with the magic wand is to go global and to do the whole. You know, and we all have a world of plenty. It's an Eden where. And in this time in the Eden, we decide let's, you know what?

Yeah, but this. Let's just not plant an apple tree. Maybe the whole idea is if we don't put the apple tree, the Eden doesn't get spoiled, so I will. I will not take the easy way out, which would be to wave the magic wand. as a panacea, because I think it just doesn't. There's probably nothing for us to have in sight with. There's not much of a meal in that. It's like just what what would you do? And it would just be like ice cream and pizza driver. That's what I would do.

I think. what I would focus on. is information ecosystems, because. ultimately. people. are creatures of free will, and that's the joy of humanity. And so to steal the free will with a magic wand. almost makes this entirely an exercise in The Good Place. Yeah, yeah, you're in somewhere and you're. And you're bored. There is a there is a beauty in the not knowing.

There's a beauty in the finite nature of all that we have. And there's. And there's a beauty in the resourcefulness. that is necessary because life is fucking hard. It just it's it's hard. It's a challenge. Yeah. So I think. the thing that I would wish for. is not an instruction manual, but an information ecosystem. that allowed those who.

Who would wish to access it and see it to be able. to make those decisions about their future and about the future. Yeah. What you mean? Yeah. With the good data. Yeah. With not the data that's been, co-opted and warped and. Yeah, I'm with you because ultimately. the machine's only as good as the input. And so I would probably, with my magic wand, want to clean the inputs so that we'd still fuck up.

We'd still make terrible mistakes, but at least we'd all be. be working off of the good data. I like that I have a friend who works at the United Nations. and I was saying, what? What is different in how you see the world versus how other people see the world? And this person said, I know the UN is not perfect. and it's fallen apart in many ways. And you know, but they said the one thing I do appreciate is at the UN,

we get our news from primary source. Yeah, almost everyone in that building. gets the news from where the news actually happened, right. And they were saying how you'll be shocked at how different it shapes. how you, you know, like a simple example was, I think it was like the US at some point. they proposed a, and you, you know, all these English words I lose. I think it was like a treaty to a cease fire or, or a preprint server.

Yeah. I'm sure, the referendum, was it something like that? Yeah. And then the American News reported and said America. has supported a cease fire, and and everyone in the UN was like, no, no, no, no one knows what that sentence means. Yeah, you said ceasefire but you put. but because they had primary source they saw it. And I, I feel like would you would you ever do something like that. Would you ever go into something organizational or would you. I mean, people have asked you you'd never run for president, right? Run for president. Sure. Let's do it.

Let's do it tomorrow. I mean, Stephen Smith. I mean, you could that's that's a winning. Anybody good. That's a winning ticket to play. I think, you know, that's a hell of a winning ticket. Know I somewhere I'm not sure where basic cable. But you don't think you and Stephen Smith could win the presidency? No, I don't, I don't. I think we could win the news that we can't. We would we would win the news that week. Someone's been chasing bulls for too long. I don't know, John Stuart. I don't know, my friend.

If you had asked me the magic wand question 30 years ago in that in the era. that I was in that we talked about earlier and my answer would have been, oh, I think I would, have hot and cold running cocaine and blowjobs. And that'll probably disqualify me from. I think it makes you the perfect candidate. Thank you. Flawed and evolved. And can I tell you, you look happier. I am happy you look, You look young. You look backward. Now you've Benjamin Button. You know, when you leave. Yeah, yeah.

And then the once a week, I mean, that's you get. Can I tell you, Joe, I feel like you walked so that I could run. And then I ran. So. So that you could fly, my friend. Yeah. You are flying once a week. Jon Stewart. Thank you for the time. Such a pleasure to say that. Truly a joy, my friend. Thank you. What now with Trevor Noah. is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, CNN's Yamin and Jody AV.

Again, our senior producer is Jess Hackel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music mixing and mastering by Hannah Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?