Join or Die with Robert Putnam | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

What is it about the bowling versus bowling alone that that the data told you? And what were people reporting that you thought was important to to get into? Well, first of all, bowling is big in America. You may not know this, but more Americans bowl than vote, for example. So wow. So we got to put we got to put polls at the bowling. So when you put your fingers in, you should like get the little die and then you vote straight off. That's what we should be doing. Great.

This is what now. with Trevor Noah. I cannot tell you how excited I am to have you on the podcast. And I think, I think everyone will be because. Robert Putnam is one of those names. That is surprise ingly unknown, but then surprisingly very well known, depending on who you ask. So if you ask a lot of people in the streets, if you said, do you know Robert Putnam, they would probably maybe say no, but it's.

the person in the street that you asked was somebody like Barack Obama? Yeah. Then he'd be like, yeah, I know Robert and I know him well. And you like, wow. Actually, he would say, Bob, I've been over this. There's a really funny and New York Times interview. in which the New York Times interview was trying to say, I know I'm, I'm New York Times reporter, pretty well connected. I know Robert Putnam, and Barack just says, no, it's Bob. I like, hey, that's when, you know, that's when you know somebody.

So actually, let's talk about that because it's hard, although it seems crazy. will tie in to everything that we're going to talk about today. loneliness, community. and fundamentally funny enough, how all of it is integral. in making sure that a democracy actually works, which I think is very important in America right now, because people are wondering. if this democracy can and will work, you know, in the next few decades. And we're experiencing this around the world. But, but, but tell us a little bit about that.

How does Barack Obama, president of the United States, come to know you as Bob? How does this journey begin? About 20 years ago. Not well, maybe not quite that 15 years ago. Maybe. I was trying to run a seminar. I was running a seminar of people, and the idea was to bring people. from very, very diverse backgrounds, together. Once every three months for a couple of years. to try to figure out how to solve the problem. of social isolation in America and its political consequences.

It's not just loneliness. It's also effects, as you said. And we're going to come back to that. The chances of democracy surviving. We had a big multidimensional matrix. We want to make sure we had enough. men and women and blacks and Asians and Latinos and whites. and old and young and rich and poor and business and labor, etc. you can imagine this multidimensional scheme, right? And we got it all filled. But we had one box that we had not yet filled. For a young. black community organizer.

and my son, who had been at Harvard. Law School, said, you know, you ought to check out this really bright guy. I know who I play basketball with because it turns out my my son, this is going to make you believe in the, conspiracy theory of American life. My son happened to be on the Harvard Law Review. with Barack, and they played basketball. Wow. He said, well, he's a he's a community organizer out in Chicago. I said, bingo, that sort of fits our, you know, the right matrix. So we've got this guy here.

He's one of the youngest people in the group. And and he's very ambitious. It's clear he's very ambitious, but he's also cute. He's a little bit like the master of like a, like a mascot in this group. And so, you know, in, like in a summer camp, people develop nicknames. And our nickname for him was the governor because we thought, what a joke. This guy's ambitious and he thinks he's going to eventually become. Hitler governor of Illinois. This is the guy who five years later, is the president, United States. So you weren't you weren't wrong, governor, was a joke.

It was a joke. There was something else that's important about him. Yes. You know, he's very smart, but he's also at least he can be very. quiet. So. And this is a group of a big egos. And so the first, you know, we gather on Friday night, Friday night and all day much of Saturday up until lunch, everybody else was doing what we called station identification. That is they were telling us how important they were. and why their reviews were the most important. And and Obama kept silent during all of that.

And then after lunch, you say, you know, I've been listen to this. I've been listening, especially to Susan and to Josh. And they think they disagree. But I think underneath Susan and Josh agree, and they did. And everybody around the table was open mouthed. How did he see that? We've been all sitting through the same conversation. And there was the whole conversation was polarized in many different ways. But he saw a way in which he could frame an issue. in ways that would be productive for the whole group going forward.

Oh, wow. He's able to see through. all this, you know, all the. Yeah, yeah, he's he's able to he's able. to connect groups that don't necessarily. think they have anything that connects them. But I feel like that's the perfect jumping off point to get into your work. And I won't say single handedly because you always give credit to your team. And I think that's important. But you have been at the forefront of helping us understand. social isolation. and why this can very well be.

the reason society crumble society as we know it. You know, everyone talks about we're more polarized than ever. People say like, oh, I, you know, and I don't get along with the other parents at school. And people say, like, I can't talk to my family because of politics. And I don't even know my neighbors names. And and at the same time, everyone says, I don't even know. if this election will be the last one, because democracy could be dead. Well, today we're going to be speaking to the man who really has worked on. helping us understand the data behind the feeling.

And you've written a few books about this. You know, bowling Alone was obviously I mean, you know, your seminal work, which was then it went on like an interesting journey. And we'll talk about some of it, you know, the praise, the criticism. Right. And then you talked about like making democracy work, etc.. But let's start with the fundamental problem at the bottom of it. Sure. Why do you think it's such a big deal that people are or say they're lonely? What is the value of minimizing social isolation? Well, of.

course there are reasons to worry about people being lonely. That's, indeed the title of this, film that's now, you know, out and about on Netflix and and join or die. You're going to die. Your chances of dying. Well, your chances of dying are high. Actually, I've had sorry to say that, but your chances of dying over. the next year are cut in half by joining one group. And that is, there are real serious health effects. And this is controlling for everything you like.

It's, it's it is really social isolation that causes premature death, but it also undermines the foundation for democracy. And that's another part of the title. Join or die refers to the fact that that, Benjamin Franklin, at the time of the founding of the American Republic, said, unless we join together, our democracy is going to die. Let it is first goes to the personal effects which are big, and to the collective effects and the collective effects, by the way, or not just democracy. Our our economy grows more slowly.

Our society becomes more unequal. That political polarization is a big consequence. of of the lack of social capital and bowling alone. The book Bowling Alone, first published in about 2000, but most of it was written in the late 90s, said, we've been going downhill for a long time in terms of our connections, all sorts of connections. We've been. we've been going to fewer club meetings, but we've been going on fewer picnics, and we trust other people less, and we're less connected to our friends and.

and to community organizations, but also to our family and all those ways. in which we connect. All of them turned out to be going down. When I wrote that book and now, 25 years later, it turns out they've gone down even further. When you're talking about social connectedness. Just just to clarify this for people, what do you mean? Because there are people who will say, but but but, Robert, I I've got followers on Instagram. and I talk to people on my Facebook and I, you know, I see people at school. And what do you mean? I also of that I'm curious about the why because my world is predominantly women.

and people of color, and our complaint is that we can't get rid of people like, you know, like you've started off with like kind of this collective. we which I'd like to disrupt a bit. Right? Because there is no real collective we hence this kind of political, the political differences that we have. And black women in this country are probably one of the few groups. where life expectancy is actually holding or going up. Right. And one of the reason they say that, and the one of the reason black women.

vote the way they do and behave the way they do, is. because they have this deep sense of community among each other. So I'd say, speaking for black women, statistically, these aren't black women's problems. And that's often because we are the carers. We are the people that looking. after children, elderly family members, they're looking to us. So I don't know many isolated black women in the way that you speak of. Also, I say just like ethnically, I'm Nigerian, British, I'm Igbo. It wasn't just about my tribe, it was about my clan. This is a whole people.

And we had this group where people pay dues all the time. And when my great uncle died, part of the Jews contributed to his funeral. So I think for ethnic minorities in this country, whether it's Latinos, it's African Americans, it's Asians. There are different cultural ties there that the idea of. when I pick up the newspaper and I hear a story of somebody dying alone. and they don't find the body for months, I'm like, how does that happen? Because there's 20 people knocking at your door. But you see, and I'm not saying that for my part, I'm no, no, no, I'm but you know.

So I will say, funny enough, I hear you both saying the same thing genuinely. So, you know, if I listen to what you're saying, Robert, you're saying that our life expectancy is directly tied. to how many groups we are a part of right now. Sorry. Yeah. And how close those are. And everything I'm hearing you say, funny enough, is. and I understand the delineation of, like, the why. But I mean, we use the we in many different ways. But I hear you saying the same thing. You're going black women's life expectancy is holding and going up in America.

because partly they are in these tight knit groups. And so maybe that's sort of what I would like us to figure out. is what are some groups holding on to that other groups are letting go of? Because I agree with you. I think even if I look at my life, you know, Robert, I grew up in South Africa. I know your life. I read it like, for so damn, I know your life. And Christiana grew up in London, right? But we have similarities and and the main thing for me was,

until this day, even black women. almost never found themselves without a community. And they worked towards it. So my grandmother was part of a thing called a society, where all the grandmothers would come together. and they would put their money into a collection, and one member would get money every single month. And then there was like a funeral society as well. And that was just a group of people who come together to talk about funerals. And then there was another church society, and that's self-explanatory. And so maybe,

maybe that's what I want to try to get to, because I actually hear you. both saying the same thing and correct me if I'm wrong. I think the we you're talking about. is like all of us, every single human being in a society. And Christiana, what you're saying is like, you know, black women don't seem to have the same issues. So maybe let's dig into that. You did a lot of this work in Italy, right? A lot of your seminal work came from Italy originally. Yes, yes. And a lot of the time, you know, when I'm having conversations. about what happens in America, I'll say to people, I know, America is the be all and end all for many people.

But I think a lot of America's issues and ideas can be solved. or have been solved in other countries. You know, you go to Italy and really you're on this journey of trying. to understand why democracies work better or worse, or even to get more granular. You're trying to understand why some people trust government more, why some people trust institutions more, and why some governments. and institutions are working better for the people that they're looking after.

And help me understand how Italy ties the story together for you. What do you learn in Italy? Well, I want to step back just a little bit. If you were a botanist and wanted to study plant growth, how. a plant was influenced by its environment, you take genetically identical seeds. You would plant them in different parts of soil, you'd rather them differently. And then you'd measure and see. how you know which plants flourished and which faltered.

And then you knew it would be something that you did in the soil or something, or how much you watered them. That's what Italians did in Italy in 1970. They created a new set of regional governments all across Italy, from the up in the Alps to down in Sicily. They all have the same powers and money. They look the same on paper, but the environments into which they were. in planted in were very, very different. Some were very advanced economically, some were very backward economically, some were Catholic, some were Communist, etc..

And so we over for 20, 25 years followed those regional governments. We could see that some of them were very successful, not only in terms of were they able to build daycare centers. when they planned to, but also in terms of what did the people think? And so we could see there were some successful governments and some failures. And then the question is, well, what was in the soil? And we had a lot of different ideas. We thought maybe it was just economic wealth made the difference, or we thought maybe it was education that made a difference, but we didn't.

guess what it turned out to be, which was rural societies, singing groups and football clubs and so on, by which I mean. some in some places of Italy, people in the region connected. with one another across various lines, singing together. So that's what we came to call a social capital. We were talking about these bonds that brought people. in a given region or community together across lines. And in northern Italy, especially north central Italy, around.

Bologna, for example, there was a lot of a lot of that kind of what I came to call social capital. That is these connections among people. And they had very effective, still do very, very effective regional governments. But some places, especially in the South, they didn't. they didn't have those kinds of groups and they didn't. And they had terrible, corrupt, inefficient, never answered the phone, even regional governments. Now what I want to and now I'm coming back to what Christiana.

ask about, did they just have no groups down there? No. They had very tiny little groups, families. They they looked after their own immediate family. but weren't involved in groups with people, you know, even on the other side of the street, much less on the other side of town. Now, what I'm trying to say is there we. was strong but very narrow. And what was characteristic up north. was that they had,

much broader groups in which people from different families. and different walks of life would come together to sing. Now, Christiane, I may not have persuaded you in what I've said now, but I've tried to convey the way I hear your objections. I actually come from that world. A huge extended family, a huge church family. My husband's an only child, but comes from a big extended family. and loads of friends. So my conception of as much as I had the depth of my clan and my ethnic group,

you know, when it was time to dedicate my kids, I flew back to London. So it happened in the home church where I was dedicated. and sure that Chris and me, Chris and my children do you know what I mean? So, like, this is I guess what I'm trying to articulate. is that for a lot of people, maybe from similar backgrounds as mine, that. so I can see already that like the fact that this it's not foreign to you. You get why when I hear what you're saying, it's like I but it's like this extended group. and clan and so very different and it's very diverse.

So there's one thing I want, I want us to get to in a way, maybe. Let's start with with this parts. The why, why, why does it change anything. So what I love about the story is, you know, oftentimes when we. when we're talking about an issue in society, as you say, because we don't have all of the data and because we we have confirmation bias, we'll pick the thing that we, we think is the cause and we'll stick with it. So we go, oh, society's declining because of social media.

Oh, society's declining because of politics. Oh, society's declining because. Okay, but you had a natural experiment. The very few, you know, social sciences will ever have. help, help us understand the why. And that I would love to know why. your government will work better if your community has more clubs in it. I don't think that that correlation is is easy for everyone to see. Let me see if I can explain it this way. If you. see people regularly and you're good friends, I don't mean.

intimate friends, but, you know, you you have a good, good friendship. Yeah. Much less a deeper friendship. What tends to evolve is, a norm of reciprocity. That is. I'll do this for you. Now without expecting something back immediately from you. Because down the road, we'll see each other at choir practice. And you'll do something for me. I'll do this for you now, without expecting something back. And indeed, if everybody in the community is connected,

I'll do something for somebody who I don't actually know. Because if other people watching. see that I'm cheating him, they won't play games with me. So in other words, everybody learns that the people in this town. are good, are nice to each other. Wouldn't you love to live in a place where people are nice to each other? Yeah, yeah. And moreover, and this is the main point of bullying alone, we learned. when we carried those ideas back to the United States. that that just changed over time. There have been periods in American history.

when we did have connections with other people. I grew up in a small town in Ohio, in the late 1950s, and nobody locked their door. And when I tell my children and grandchildren that they said. they think grandpa's line. But, you know, in that period and it wasn't about race, there were. there were black kids, I played football. I there's a picture on the cover of Bowling Alone of Me. in my bowling league when I was in that in junior high school. And there are three white guys.

I'm the tall, skinny one in the middle, and there are two black guys. And so this was not about race. I mean, it didn't it wasn't bounded. Distrust and reciprocity was not bounded then there by race. I'm not saying race was not a problem. Of course it was. But I mean, in terms of this, in a small town in the 1950s, right, right, right, people left their door unlocked. And that's because of what I, in my jargon, called social capital. So all I'm saying is not that every single person in America has lost trust.

or has become untrustworthy, but on average, and we've now shown this. to be true. All over America, people are less connected. and therefore less trustworthy than they used to be. There are differences across America. and the places that are still relatively high, are in. social connection, are somewhat more trustworthy. And they. I'm sorry. I'm going to tell you more social sites. and you want to know that people do an interesting study.

They drop letters. on the street with money in them. sealed, but with money in them and address. And then they ask of in any given town or a neighborhood, how many of those letters. are actually put in the mailbox so the owner can get their money back? What a fascinating experiment. There are cities in America where your odds of getting your money back. If you drop it in an envelope, drop it on the street are zero, and there are places this is hard to believe. There are places in America where if you drop an envelope with money.

in it, yeah, you're 80% likely to get the money back. So that's amazing differences. Yeah. So Bob, maybe maybe help us understand, you know, the the idea of bowling alone. because I think, you know, it is important to help people understand that, first of all, it is an example. Yeah. Right. And and I think what you liked about it, it's. sort of why it connects with me is that it's a simple example to understand. Right. Because everyone can go bowling, but it's the alone. that really became the signifier that showed what was going wrong in America.

and in many other parts of the world where people are experiencing that. So. help us understand there's been virtually no. decline in bowling itself, but. it used to be. that people bowled in teams in leagues, and the there has been a complete collapse. of team bowling, of league bowling. And when I told a friend of mine that he said, oh, you mean we're bowling alone? And I thought, that's a good title for a book. If ever I write a book about this. It turned out to be a good title.

But what it what is the difference? What is the experiential difference? Yes. Christiana, have you ever bowled? Yeah, a couple times, but I'm from England, so yeah, that's true. for some actually. Football. Football team culture. Yeah. No, no. Okay. So actually I know where every bowling alley in London. is because whenever I've gone over there, I'm selling, selling books. Every, every journalist thought their clever idea. would be to interview me in a bowling alley. So, like, it's fun.

Thank you to every bowling alley in central London in a in bowling. in the bowling league, there are five people on a team. and two teams are playing against each other. And how well you do. depends on how well the team does, not how well you individually do. And at any given time, two people are up at the lane throwing the ball down, but the other eight people are sitting in a semicircle at the back of the alleys. and they're mostly talking, you know, and they're talking about.

what was on TV last night, or they're talking about occasionally. they're talking about, you know, the local schools or, or, you know, whether they should a bond issue should be passed. to cover the cost of the new sewer system or whatever. And now I'm going to suddenly change. that description occasionally they are. having a. conversation about public civic life that's highfalutin for saying. they just had got into a discussion with people they know well.

Remember, these are people they see every week, and they know how to interpret what the people say. They're not total strangers because they because they vote in league. and with other members of the team, but they're also real human beings. And so the reason I decided to use that as a metaphor. is that does say, here are people who know each other. If you're in a team, they know each other and they're not doing politics. But occasionally it helps with the politics. Does that make sense? I mean, occasionally.

they're able to have a conversation that's a kind of a responsible conversation. It's not just two guys yelling at each other, or two gals yelling each other. As two people, we're going to have to get along. because the next week they're going to be back in the same bowling alley. Yeah, that is so. It seem to me a useful. way of describing how. bowling in a league, you know, a team is not just fun. I mean, I it's important to emphasize this. I really wish I didn't emphasize this more. Social capital can't just be eat your spinach.

It's got to be fun too. I mean it's it's it's so and that's why I use the example of bowling. because it's not saying, oh, go to a good government meeting. Well yes or no. Good mother, good government. Meaning it's got to be fun and bowling is fun, but it's also a little bit like a good government meeting is that I'm. maybe exaggerating here, but that's that's where the idea of bowling. a bowling together came and then the opposite of that was we. are just less opportunity for encountering people. that we know well to talk occasionally about public affairs.

Right? If we only meet at a political rally, our conversations will only be political, and then we'll forget what connects us. Yeah. One one other thing I wanted to throw in. Maybe here. I know your work is all about. data, so I don't know if you have the data on this, but how much do you think. companies and jobs and capitalism and the way it's been employed in America. over the past 50 or 60 years, has affected people's ability to do that? Because, you know, when you're talking about.

let's go bowling together, I just think of personally. friends of mine and how we always want to do things, but. more often than not, people will say, I would love to, but I work late that day. Yeah, I wish I could, but I've got to finish this thing for work. Yeah, yeah, I want to, but I, you know, the work and the, And then it's. like my kid and I got to see the kid because I don't have childcare. Yeah. And I've got to and I. And I wonder because you are a man who, as you say, you've lived through time.

You know, I would love to know. if there's any data or any experience that you've had that has shown you. that our ability to engage in a league. with other people is directly affected. by how much time our work gives us off to do that. Remarkably, I've got good data on how people spend every hour of their day. going back to the 1960s, would you believe this 60 year time trend? And as. very interesting, if you invite me back for another two hours.

and I'll talk about how our our lives have changed, for example, back in the day, in the 60s, we slept. The average American slept, 7.5 hours a day, and that average is exactly 7.5 hours. Today, there's been no change on average. Some people speak more, some. So that's impressive though still. Yeah, but here's the complicated part. Actually. We're spending less time at work. We used to less time always.

So less time at work. So what do we do with that extra time? All of it is spent in front of screens. There's been a steady, steady, long term rise. in the amount of time we spend in front of screens. And the most recent data, you might think, well, okay, used to be screens like television, and now it's screens like, you know. Yeah, yeah, you know, some phones and iPads and whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but it isn't. We're actually spending more time watching TV than we used to, and.

we're adding to that. I've no, don't quote me exactly. Because, I mean, I've got the data. I just don't have it in front of me at this moment. I didn't know you were going to ask me this question. We're at it. We've added since the advent of of social media, another two hours a day, two hours a day. And yet we're spending less time. in the presence of other people. I mean, it's the data are just the worst you could imagine. We've got more free time.

We do have more free time. Wow. And we've spent more than all of that free time. in front of a screen. Damn, I feel called out. Wow, wow, wow. Well, you asked me for data. No, I mean, yeah, I'm just I see, I see every bingeing and every TV show. I see it very differently now. But of course I want people to watch this podcast. This is a different game. Yeah, but I mean, wow, listen to the podcast on the way to meet your friends. Yes. Oh yes. Yes. No, wait. Why?

We love podcasts. Yeah, but. we're going to continue this conversation right after this. short break. Robert, I'm really curious about what you think. Like, I'm a millennial and I have like, younger cousins who are Gen Z, and we spend a lot of our time on the internet like, I like I met my spouse through Twitter, if as crazy as that sounds like. So this is a world where people meet their spouses,

whether it's Tinder or Instagram and then Gen Z, they spend. probably a disproportionate amount of their time online. And for some people, and I think in my generation and younger, that's where they found their connections. Would you think that's a problem, or do you think that can be an alternative. third space that maybe can foster that sense of trust? Christiana, you asked lots of really good questions and they're all complicated. And I'm going to I'm going to try I'm a complicated person. Right? I'm sorry. I'm.

Did you say Robert? No, it's Bob please. Oh we get Bob now. Okay. Wow. Okay. I was going to say Professor Putnam. Oh, please. Nice. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if I get a call, a phone call. And the. person says, Robert, I just hang up right away. because they know me. It's a nice screen, right? It was just a answering the phone. Okay. Bomb. Bob. Okay, I want to say a couple of things about, social media and virtual connections. and then and how they compare.

to real face to face connections. What? In one, some people call IRL in real life, when social media first came out, everybody thought it was, you know, unbelievably great, world peace was going to break out. We would all have. and we would all be friends with each other. because we we all were connecting across. that always at that time seemed a little strange to me. But the academic work about that's true was always more skeptical.

than the people who were making money by getting us onto their websites. You, of course, but the real question at that point, if I can put it. this way, was Is Facebook better or worse than bowling leagues? I'm using that as a center. I mean, it just as labels for those two things. And for a long time the academics said, I don't know. There's some ways in which Facebook is not as good as bowling leagues, but, you know, you can guess what my Mark Zuckerberg thought. And then he one point said, well, okay, maybe Putnam is right,

but we're going to. create a new kind of Facebook that's going to be even super dandy year, and it's going to be wonderful, even better than bowling leagues. But the academic research, I repeat, was always skeptical about that. But then came a terrible natural experiment Covid. But now I probably should. I was going to get more complicated, but I can tell it. Christianity likes to deal with complications. So I'm going to read. I have so far been phrasing this problem. as if the choice we had was between either face to face.

or social media, right? Yeah, but actually that's not true. Almost all of our networks today. are simultaneously face to face and internet based. Yeah. My wife Rosemary and I do see each other a lot every day. That is, there is a face to face relationship there. But she has a different office than mine and astonishingly much of the time.

I sent her an email or sent her a text and she responds, it's not. We have one set of relationships that are face to face and a different set. of relationships that are internet based. They're the same. And I want to use a metaphor here, if I if I can in chemistry, we have the idea of a, an alloy. is a mixture of two different. base chemicals. like tin and copper, and you stir it and heat it.

and so on, and you get something that is neither tin nor copper. But I never remember bronze or brass or something like that. Right. And, and brass is different from either of the either the tin or the copper. Okay. So so far so good. Yeah. Now what I'm saying is all of our networks today are alloys. So the question really is. how can we get an alloy that is has the benefits of both. Yeah. That is to say, could we find a way to create a network.

that has the advantages that the internet has of not depending upon space, but it has the advantages of face to face ness. Namely you could actually get together and cooperate with somebody. Do we know how to do that? And the answer is we sure do. Okay. We know how to. For example, there are there are networks that are. that are internet based for neighborhoods. And it's easy to contact the other people. Just whenever you get the idea. you want to borrow a rake or something, you just send out an email.

But then they're also in the neighborhood. So I could go to get the you go get the rake in person. So it's not a technical problem. So why don't we have lots of these things? It's almost like, is we wonderful to have this right? And it turns out the real answer is these big companies, they know how to do it. They know, and I know this because I've talked personally. They invited me, Bob Putnam, out to wherever it was in, in, in Silicon Valley to talk about social capital. Amazing. And we had a wonderful conversation. They clearly knew what I meant.

They knew the difference. between face to face and connected and they knew how to use. They conveyed convey the idea that they knew how to oh, they knew how to use their tools to get people to connect in person. Yes. But how? Why don't they do that answer when it's much better for their business line? If people fight than if they cooperate. and you can't sell ads in person, that's another problem. No, no, it's true though. You can't you can't you can't monetize people's connections when they on digital. And so now you limiting your revenue, you know,

this seems like a. similar problem that exists in many different industries and fields. All right. In that like let's say food. There's nothing wrong with drinking a glass of coke. There really isn't. There's nothing wrong with having a burger from McDonald's or whatever. There really isn't. However, those products are oftentimes made to make you crave them. and want them way more than you naturally would. Yeah, right. And you know this because you as a person, just think about you as a person.

You do not say to yourself, I should do that again. You don't you go like, oh I can't believe I did that again. I had too much of it. I but then you want more of it. and then you want more of it and then you want more of it. Right. And we're supposed to be having quote unquote a balanced diet. So it's like, have your vegetables, have the salad, have the stew, have the this, have the that, and then have your snacks and you'll be fine. But it feels like we're in like an arms race against companies. who go, we're not going to give you a break. if you have a choice of ten meals, we want you to pick the snacks ten times.

And we're going to designed in such a way. that you're going to pick the snacks ten times. But then on the outside they'll say, no, no, no, no, no, we want you to eat healthy. And you're like, yes, but you, you made your product so that I can't. do you get I'm saying yeah. And I think the same thing goes for like what you're saying about social capital is. they'll say it, we want to connect people, but they don't. You know how you know, they don't want you to stop using the product. The simplest answer is infinite scroll. Yeah, right. If social media companies wanted us to not endlessly use their product cause.

they'll even have a label, it's like, hey, remember to take a break now. and then, you know, you can just make me take a break. Yeah, you could literally they could literally just go like TikTok. Girls, girls, girls, girls, girls go school. You're done. This is your limit for the day. Yeah. And you know what? I almost think that people would actually like the product. more because people would go, oh, yeah, I finished my TikTok for today. I'm done. Yeah. You know, like you're chronically online. Let's not talk about me. No, we must talk about I am an I'm an addict. But, Bob, it's so funny. You mentioned the neighborhood group and the rate.

So recently I joined my neighborhood WhatsApp. group, and, it's very Nimby. I thought it was very Nimby ish, but there was just, like, legit concerns about crime in the neighborhood. and the LAPD getting out when they would come out. And, you know, sometimes people be like, there's someone walking in the neighborhood. This is the description. They're a bit suspicious. And there was one day it got a bit loaded because it was just like, there's a black guy. he's in a hoodie or something, something like that in the description. And it was somebody else in the group who's white said, hey, let's be careful.

We're not profiled like anyone know. someone you know, because I live in a majority white neighborhood and I'm like, I don't want to be the black person in the group. Being like, you shouldn't say that. There's a white guy said, hey guys, we should be careful. And people will figure it out amongst themselves. Yeah, because it's also the same neighborhood group. that when there is something suspicious happening, when there is a break in and LAPD don't get that. Yeah, yeah, that's the same people in the group. that may say something offhand about a description. that will show up to your house and make sure you're okay.

And this means. and there's something about that group that's completely transformed. Like, I would be sensitive typically if I read a bad description. Yeah, that everyone has this trust among each other to say, even if we say the wrong thing, we don't mean it in the wrong way. We want to keep our neighborhoods safe. And fundamentally, we all trust each other and look out for each other. And sometimes, just like I need flour, does anyone have flour? You know, and this is something. I've never been exposed to, but it's happening through WhatsApp. But I'd say the critical thing is we have a great leader.

I don't want to say a name because you probably don't want people to, but then you meet in person to what she. she messaged me and she said she was like, she told me that history. And she was like, I want to meet your husband and your kids. So we're trying to figure it out. And she's like, so that's probably one of the nicest neighborhood walks. Oh, there you see, this completely changed how I perceive. not just people in my neighborhood, but how I even saw this profile. But it's not. It's the neighborhood. There's something to the neighborhood group. It's what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And there's wonderful data on that. But if you were worried. about crime in your neighborhood and you had one of two strategies,

you could have a lot more cops on the beat, pay cops more and, you know, arm them and so on. Or you could know one another's first name. The second is the more important crime fighting strategy. That is, it's more effective. to have eyes on the street from your neighbors, just as you're saying. And what I'm talking about is big, huge studies. that have done this experimentally, this is different neighborhoods. And it's not like an opinion. This is data that's been.

Yeah, well, I'm sorry, that's what I do for a living. That's what I'm fighting for people I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, the one I don't want to interrupt this conversation, except that I hope we have a chance to go back to bowling alone. and explain and say why it explains Trump. Let's fast forward to that point. We are now living in a country and the world is living in the shadow. of this country that is experiencing levels of polarization. and levels of vitriol that most people say they've never experienced.

Right. And one of the key tenets of this moment is that people. do not trust the government. They don't believe in the government. They don't believe that anything can get done. They don't believe anything will get done. And and a lot of people who are being elected. into government, ironically, by the way, I always think that's ironic. is that those people are being elected into government because they say. government shouldn't be a thing and we should just dismantle it all. And fundamentally they're saying like, hey everyone, you just take care of yourself. Why does the government do your education? You do your education, and why does the government do your health care?

You do your health care, you do your own research. You do your own thing. So actually help us understand how do we go from a world. where people spend less time and I it is crucial to remind. everyone bowling is is one of the things it doesn't matter what it is. It could be a book club, it could be a running group, it could be a bike club. Anything. You know how how does America go from having fewer clubs. to creating the movement that leads to Donald Trump? Right.

Remember, bowling Alone said 25 years ago that we were. had been for 25 bites at that point, had been it been 25 years. We've been going downhill in terms of our social connections. Yeah, various sorts. Anything that brought people together. from different walks of life to connect across different boundaries. That's right. And they've been that been happening for 25 years now, 25 years later, we've gone back and done the same study and it turns out nothing has changed. It's still going downhill despite all of my pleading and talking with people. This is going downhill, which now means for 50 years we've been going downhill.

Donald Trump did not cause that. And this is the main thing I want to say here. Donald Trump is not the cause of our problems. He's the symptom of our problems. American democracy had these problems long before Trump appeared on the scene. And most importantly, we will have those same problems. leading to faltering democracy when he's no longer on the scene. Donald Trump exploited this, and I mean that. So this is Bob Putnam saying,

you know, Donald Trump exploited what I had discovered. That's not just me. Steve Bannon has said, I can show you the quote. Well, we were trying to figure out how we could get Donald Trump elected. And then we read this book by this crazy guy Putnam about bowling alone. No way. Are you being serious? Yeah, yeah. She's quote, you can fly I mean later. Oh, wait. So and what did they use? I don't understand what did they use from your book to help Trump get elected. What did they identify? They said effectively, as I said in the book, but I wasn't doing it.

We have all these isolated people there. They're ripe for having a kind of populist. come to power and say, you're all unhappy and isolated. Trust me, I'm the one. Does that sound familiar? Does that sound like he's the guy? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what Bowling Alone said, and I didn't act on it. Maybe I should have, maybe I. Yeah, you could have been the president. Have been president. President. But president Bob Putnam. and J.D. Vance has said something very similar to this.

There's lots of empirical evidence. I won't bore you with all the data. There's lots of data that's saying a the strongest predictor actually, of support for Donald Trump, of places who support Donald Trump. and people that support Donald Trump is social isolation. Now, we're not just talking hypothetically. Oh, it'd be nice to have more people joining clubs. We're saying the pickle that we're in as a country is precisely due. to the fact that we're going to be isolated. Yeah, yeah. I'm not trying to say we ought to reconstruct bowling leagues, but it's got to be something that brings us face to face.

Is that making sense? You know, you know, what makes complete sense. is because I think of it through a few lenses, like you and I have talked about this a bunch. I go, one of the things I'm saddest about in America. and I see around the world is the decline of churches. Yes, because I go, I understand that religion has many issues. that it's come with, whether it's pastors, whether it's, you know, the way. they treat certain people or whatever it might be. Right. What may you take for granted what that building did.

Yeah. There are very few places in our societies where you can come. and regardless of the language you speak, the color of your skin, your socioeconomic background, your location, whatever it is. you are allowed to join and identify as being part of that group. And I've always thought that's. maybe the most important thing is the fact that you can become a part of it. Do you get what I'm saying? That's like really, really important to me. And I think about it through that lens. I go like, wow, man, I understand that. People go like, oh yeah, religion. I don't care about it. And I'm like, yes, but you also losing the church.

and the church was the place where you saw people to tell them you were sick. The church was the place where you got a little help. The church was the place where you got you found out about a new job listing, you know, someone. Music lesson. People learn instrument. People learned music. People think about how all the greatest singers. Yeah. Of like, you know, the last whatever many decades have all come from church. Yeah. You know, so the training, the connections, the the understanding that it came from. And it's funny that you say that when we were still. on The Daily Show, I remember the thing I used to talk to everyone about was how.

Jordan Klepper would say this. I'll say to him, he'd got all these Trump rallies. And I said, Jordan, what do you like? What do you notice when you have the Trump rallies? What do you notice that we don't from far? And he said something really fascinating to me once. He said A lot of people are there for the vibes. Yes, he said, a lot of people are there for the vibes. And you think about it. Donald Trump created many clubs where clubs didn't exist. He said, I'm coming to your town. I'm going to sell you hats that you can all wear. We're going to sell you little scarves that you can all wear,

and you're going to come into a room and then you know what? We all going to hang out and chant this. You know, when I knew that Trump, by the way, Bob had reached the pinnacle. of understanding this is when he was at a political rally right? People are there, ostensibly, to hear about your plan. for the future of the country and how you plan to run the economy. And Trump was just like, let's just dance. Do you remember that moment? He said, oh, I don't remember that particular. You don't remember that moment? Yeah, sure I do. This was one of.

I remember watching that moment going, this man is he's completely lost it. Yeah. Well, he is a savant who's completely understood it. And now I think he's the latter. Yeah, yeah, I don't I thought he was a former. Yeah. Donald Trump realized in that moment he's like, man, you guys don't. You're not here because of like. what I'm going to do with the economy or not do what? You just came here to hang out. And we're in a club and everyone in that club says the same thing. We've been forgotten. So there's a man who grew up in a town where the factory was shut down, and that was a piece of his club.

So he's forgotten there's somebody else who grew up in another city, and because that city has lost its population, the church died. And now they don't have a church, so they've been forgotten. That's right. Someone's kids left to go to a big city. So now they don't have to. They've been forgotten. And it's just a bunch of forgotten people who are now seen. They come together and you go you when you go home, watch the video. I promise you, it is one of the most amazing things. Trump literally just goes like he just playing my playlist. He shouted to some person who rolls with him. and they just play all of his favorite. And I'm talking everything from YMCA to Ave Maria,

like it's the most eclectic mix of music, and he just dances. Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this? So Trevor, my question is, is like you've hit on something with this Trump thing. How do we guarantee in this crazy world we live in that people. don't start clubs of hate? Which I think what Trump it as much? Oh, that's a good question.

You know, I mean it's just like because. that that's then my concern because the Ku Klux Klan is definitely a club. It's a local, it's a local club membership. They took care of each other like a uniform. Yeah. It's just like, how do we in this, like, very polarized moment where there is. what all sides seem to have deep resentment for each other. How do we make sure these clubs don't become spaces, or is that even necessary? Well, yes, I think it is necessary. There are different kinds of social capital, different kinds of networks. And one important distinction is between what I call.

bridging social capital, that is, ties that link you to people unlike yourself. And bonding social capital. Bonding social capital are the ties that link you to people just like yourself. So my so my bonding social capital. are my friends with other elderly white. male Jewish professors. That's my that's that's my bonding social capital. and my bridging social capital, my ties to people of a new generation.

I have a little bit of bridging. that I rely on heavily across generations, because I've got my grandchildren. And I'm not saying this is important. Bridging good, bonding bad. Because if you get sick, the people who bring your chicken soup. are likely to reflect your bonding social capital. That's a little bit what Christiana was earlier saying. The people who would really take care of her if she got. who would bring her chicken soup or the equivalent would be bonding. social capital. I'm saying bonding social capital is not necessarily bad, but bridging.

social capital is crucial for a modern, diverse society like ours. Bridging across racial, across. age, across gender, across party and so on. So far so good. Right right right. But bridging is harder to build than bonding social capital. My grandmother knew that. My grandmother said to me, baby birds of a feather flock together. Right. She didn't think I'd understand. She what she meant was Bobbie.

Bridging social capital is harder to build and bonding social capital. But she didn't think I'd understand that, which is why she used the avian metaphor about bird, about birds. But that's the basic point. So here's the challenge. Much of of, Trump's. support, it draws from different. kinds of demographic groups, of course, but it's bonded. heavily on politics and not bridging at all. And so now I'm back at the question, why doesn't Putnam saying he wants lots of of Ku Klux Klan?

Yeah, the answer is I don't want lots of Ku Klux Klan. because it's bonding and I want a lot of more bridging. Does that make sense to what I'm asking? That makes that makes sense, and I want to know how to do it well. But I'm just going to throw this before we move on. I'm going to throw something out here. Maybe controversial. I would argue the reason the Democrats didn't do as well in this. election is because they were bonding. They weren't bridging. Yes. So if I look at Barack, I look at Barack Obama and they thought they were bridging. Yeah. But if I look at Obama's campaign, right, Barack Obama was going, hey, hey,

hey, hey, I don't care if you're in Kentucky. Let's connect them. Let's connect. Yeah. Do you have this issue? I have this issue. This is something I grew up with. You grew up my grandmother. Looks like you. My mother looks like you. My father looked like that. My, this. I grew up in this world. He was bridging to Iowa. Yeah, yeah. And he was like, yes, we can like it was bridging, bridging, bridging. We really it's got to be. Yes. Right. Yeah. And so as much as it's easy for everyone to be like Donald Trump and blah, you know. and we all guilty of that. But I think of like the Democrats. in this election, a lot of it was bonding stuff as well. It was very much like, you know, like,

you know, white men all this and, the rich have done that. And, and it became bonding that way, as opposed to the coalition of saying, like, Bernie even did. Well, by the way, when he was running, he did a lot of bridging, like, you know, hey, let's all join. We're all struggling. Let's all come together struggling people. We all deserve health care. You all doesn't matter where you from. Bridge, bridge, bridge. And I think in this election in particular, there was a lot of. bonding from both parties.

And as crazy as this may sound to a lot of people, I think Donald Trump engaged in a little more bridging. than people will give him credit for, which I think is. why he connected more than people thought he would. In some spaces. I want to know what Bob thinks of that. So this is sorry I you you didn't invite me on here. to cite all my books, but I'm going to say yet. another book because that's exactly why we invited you on your expert. Okay. I want to talk about. the growing gap between rich folks and poor folks in America.

And the book was called Our Kids. The book was focused on a whole series of charts and graphs. that showed the gap between rich kids and poor kids growing. And I'll say more about what I meant by that, but in particular. by Rich, I didn't mean literally having lots of money. The book is based on the upper third. of American society, which is basically college educated folks. Okay. And the lower two thirds of America, which is basically people. who didn't graduate from four years of college.

And what that book showed is a growing gap. Also, among their parents. Those two groups are increasingly they don't marry one another. It used to be that there were people. would marry across these class lines, but they don't now. They used to be that they. that they would live in the same neighborhood, but there were increasingly living in. not racially segregated, but class segregated homes. And I and what I'm trying to say is that class. lens was, when I wrote the book, at least as important as the racial lens.

And it's becoming, relatively speaking, the class lens is becoming more important. relative to the racial lens. The plight facing working class whites. is the same as the plight facing working class blacks. That's what Bernie Sanders noticed. He was talking about everybody who's down, not at the bottom, eating the poorest of the poor, but the lower two thirds of the country.

Right. And I think that the Democratic Party, this may be controversial. I think the Democratic Party has got to start. focusing more on those class differences and less exclusively. on the racial or other identity issues. Now it sounds like I'm saying let's forget about, black folks. And and I'm not saying that. I'm saying let's really focus on working class black folks because they're the ones. who are falling further and further behind. Yeah.

To follow up on that, they, because a lot has been said about black. male increasing voting for Republican, they actually split the vote. And they look at the black male vote. specifically, and the black men most likely to vote for Trump. But non-college educated. Exactly. Unchurched. Unchurched. That was the key. They, up to a high school diploma. Yeah. Black young black men. That's the group most likely to vote for Trump. The black men that voted Democrat, are college educated, tend to attend church professionals.

Yeah. And that's and they. they vote at similar levels for, Democrats as black women do in general. So that that group that's actually splitting off from the Democratic. Party is like the most oppressed class among black people. I almost want to know what you think the future will be, because. I remember speaking. I forget who this person was. It was such a wonderful conversation. we had in one of my first times going to London, and I was talking to them about living in America, and I was talking to them about coming from South Africa and everything.

And, and this woman said to me, she said, she said, oh, darling, she said, I can't wait for South Africa and, and America to get over race. because then they'll realize that everything is all about class, baby. It's all about class. And it really was an interesting idea, which has stuck with me because I go like, yeah, the most classless society I know. Yeah, you know, but you know, but what I, what I liked about it was this is. she forced me to hone in on something that I think people do take for granted. Yeah.

Oftentimes when we talk about issues that are like pertaining to black people, you be like, oh, black people have. that has just become an easy identifier for a class issue. Right? And that's why like people like that's why people like Doctor Martin Luther King. like MLK was like, yo, I'm fighting for class. A lot of this stuff was class related, very socialist. Yeah, he was fighting for class. And black people are disproportionately affected by it. But that's why, like, even the Black Panther Party, they found a coalition. Yeah, between white people who are proudly.

racist and black people who are militantly fighting against racism. But they were like, yo, union jobs. Yeah. The guy was like, hey, man, we should all come together because we are all being affected by this. And in all of these cases, by the way, they formed clubs, the Black Panthers formed a mini club that wasn't the Black Panthers. that involved all of these poor people. Yeah, doctor Martin Luther King, he formed multiple clubs and chapters and all of these organizations. And it's interesting to see what you're saying is, like, these clubs. came together around the issue of class.

And so now let me let me ask you this then. So do you think, say, the people who are in the bottom two thirds. Yes. Are they more likely to be negative affect. negatively affected by not having a social club? Yes. And they're. certainly much more likely to be socially isolated. I mean, they've got they've got at least two strikes against them once, maybe three a they're more socially isolated, okay. And B they're poorer financially,

and C they have got less education. So all that those folks are in a pickle. And what that means is it's important to just understand the math. This is simple, simple arithmetic. We could have a clean system here in which we had all the colleges. You could be educated people, you know, vote for the Democrats. and all the Non-college-educated people vote for the Republicans. What's wrong with that? Well, there are a lot more of them than of us. We, the Democrats. If we're going to retain power democratically,

we've got to begin. appealing, not ignoring race. I'm not saying that, but appealing more to the class based interests. I want to try to end with three. tattoos. Oh yeah, that's great, cause that's what Christiana was asking for. What? What were you going to ask? Because then you can say it. And then this came from my homework to do that. Okay, great. So the what now the what now Bob Putnam I'm going to try to keep it simple.

Not not because you guys couldn't understand. more something more complicated, but. because I think we've got to understand in very simple terms one. go young. It's much more important. that we focus on young people, regardless of where they are right now, because they're the future. And I'm now talking as an historian, looking back, not just over the last, you know, five, ten, 20, 50 years. I'm looking over the last hundred and 25 years. And in my last book, which was called The Upswing, I looked. over the whole of American history over the last hundred and 25 years.

And big changes are not the creation of old guys like me, old guys like me. Sometimes. We've been around so long. that we understand that it doesn't have to be the way it is today, but. we're not the people who have the ideas that will work to build social capital. and save America in the, I don't know, 2050s or something. I'm going to be long gone. So first thing is go young. and inspire the young people to come up with the new bowling leagues. It's not going to be bowling. this, it's going to be something else, but almost surely.

will involve something of of high tech. But it will involve real personal relations with before you move on. A perfect example of that for me was Pokemon Go. So I don't, I don't I'm assuming neither of you played it, but I was I was a huge Pokemon Go fan. Huge huge huge. I think this was the best execution of a video game in the modern age, because it was a video game that everyone played on. It was on your phones, right? And the goal was to catch Pokemon. You don't need to know what any of this is.

Just think of a game where you're trying to catch little creatures. Okay? But what they did that was amazing was. you had to catch the creatures in the real world. So they used your camera on your phone, and you would literally. have to run out into the streets to catch these digital creatures. And so at first it was just like, oh, this is silly and this is fun, but I will I'll never forget the joy I experienced when one night. I was in New York and I was running with a group of people in Central Park. with strangers at 11:30 p.m.

because someone had tweeted and told us that there was a Snorlax, which is one of the creatures. There was a Snorlax in Central Park, and Bob and Cristiano. When I tell you. they were, if I was just to estimate they were like maybe 500 people. from like from like little kids would drag their parents out of the house. all the way through to like adults who were playing the game running. And I remember at 1.1 of the kids turned, looked at me. because we're all running because there's a time limit.

You don't know how long the creature will be there for. So we're all running through Central Park together and one of the kid turns, turns, looks at me. This kid's like me, like 14, 15. And he looks at me and he's like, he's like Trevor Noah. He's like, you playing Pokemon Go. He's like, now I know I'm in the right place running together, but I what I, what I loved about it was it to what you're saying. It was the perfect culmination. It wasn't the either or. Yeah. We were all playing a digital game. It was the Eloi. You could play the game at home and we were playing it at home. But you could not help but bump into other people.

who were playing the game as well in the real world. And it was such a beautiful because once the Snorlax was gone, all everyone could do now is talk. Where you from? Hey, where do you live? Yeah, where did you. What's the best one you've caught? What have you? And this was like the game won awards, by the way, even for getting people fit. and running and moving it. But I love that. So like when you say the going young and figuring out the. the hybrid, I think there are ways to do it. because some people be like, oh, I don't know if you can. I think we actually have seen one of the ways. and I know because I played it, but yes. Okay.

So what's rule number two? Rule number two is go local, go local. All the times that there have been major. social revolutions, they bubbled up from the bottom. And at local levels, people can more easily collaborate across. party and other lines because somebody's got to fix the sewers. And so, yeah, you don't have to have. an ideological discussion about how important is the environment. You know, everybody knows that the sewers got to be fixed.

If we're going to be able to survive in this town or the schools. You know, you can have a national debate about, I don't know, some issue in education, but. but somebody's got to fix our schools right here. And so sometimes left wingers are in favor of national solutions. And and for race, we did have to go national. because there were whole regions of the country. which were if we went local, it would we would have stayed segregated forever.

So I'm not saying always go local, but if you want to have a major revolution. and that's this is exactly what MLK did, right? He didn't start with his march on Washington. He started in in Montgomery. What do you think is the most important social reform in the history of America? I'm going to tell you in just a second the high school. When was the high school invented? The high school was invented in 1910. God did not invent the high school. It was invented. And where was the high school? White high school. I mean, a secondary school that a public high school.

And everybody could go to. Yeah, we had private schools, of course, there's like eating or whatever, but I'm talking about public high schools, first place in the world. was in 1910, in flyover country in America. It was not invented in Massachusetts or in Chicago or in LA, or what was invented in small towns in the middle of America. And it went viral. And within 20 years, every city in America, every city. and town in America, had a high public high school.

That's viral 20 years. It went from that's amazing. So what I'm trying to say is the really good ideas, policy ideas the next time they spread. And thirdly, and I want to come back now to this is your religion go morality. Stick with me. I'm an academic, but I'm about to start preaching yet you both me? Yeah, I, I apologize for that. When we look at long run changes, long run changes in political polarization,

in economic inequality, in. connections and so on. The leading indicator, it turns out that people in a given period. and place actually think they have obligations to other people. We need to have a moral reawakening in America. I'm talking about simple golden rule. Read the sermon on the Mount. I mean, any any religion says. we at least as much about other people as you do about yourself.

Loved religion should. Religion should be a we phenomenon, not an I phenomenon. Yeah. So if I had a magic wand. I don't. But maybe somebody listen, we don't have a magic word. I try to make the magic wand, make young people remember young in localities across America. think that they have obligations to other people. Does that make sense? I mean, yeah, and and my basic message is if we want to fix America.

and I desperately want to fix America, it's probably. not going to come in my lifetime, but I want to have it. come at least in my grandchildren's lifetime. And we got to get about it now. And that requires mobilizing large numbers of people. at the local, large numbers of young people at the local level, thinking about. their obligations to other people and not just about themselves. Sorry, that's the message. Oh, no, I don't think you have to be sorry. I think it's given us homework.

So play Pokemon Go. Go. Yeah, yeah, people. in your local neighborhood and help them catch the Pokemon that they caught. Yes. Yeah, that's the thing. Because. Because you're helping each other. And then when you speak to them, talk to them about spiritual awakening. Yeah. Yeah. So you guys are going to you're going to lead this revolution. I'm. Yeah. Sign me up. Let me know how I can join. Oh, Bob, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for taking the time. Q Bob, you know, it's such a simple idea. And unfortunately, sometimes the best ideas are so simple that people don't want them.

It's simple, but it's hard. Yeah, no, but that's what I mean. It's like it's the same way, like eating healthy. It's a simple idea. Eat the vegetables and don't eat things that come in packets. And your body, your body changes and people are like, yeah, yeah, but I need something more complicated than that. But yeah, I want to say thank you very much. Thank you for doing the work. Thank you for taking the time with us. And, you know, we started at Robert. We end at Bob's. Thank you very much. It was wonderful getting to know you. And, I hope I hope you do get to see some of this in your lifetime.

So don't write it off yet. You keep talking about you're going to be gone live. Maybe some of it will change. We'll see. We'll do our best. Thank you. Christiana. Thank you, thank you Trevor. Thank you so much, Bob. But. What now with Trevor Noah. is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Shahnaz Yamin and Jody AV. Again, our senior producer is Jess Hackel.

Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music mixing and mastering by Hannah Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now? Looks.