How To Be The Most Healed Guy with Neal Brennan | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

There are few people I know. who have spent more time in comedy. than Neal Brennan, like few human beings. And when I say comedy, I mean every level of comedy. Chief Minister Nation. Yeah. No paperwork. really? Scheduling. You are that guy. Club comedy. Neal Brennan has been in the. the trenches. of the trenches. So I was going. to ask you about this, but like, I feel like. there is no comedian who does not have. something wrong with them.

No, no. Good comedian. learned that from The Daily Show. I was like, all these people are insane. When I was like, These are not normal. Yeah, yeah, like bizarre. And it doesn't matter what it is. It might just. It might be your family. It might be your. the country you lived in. It might be just the neurodivergent thing. that you have in your own head. and you grew up in a fine. What's funny is doing my. I do a podcast called Blocks. where I have people on. and we talk about the their issues. Yeah, and I know that they're not the real issues. Do you know what I mean? Like, these are the issues that you're willing,

these are the showcase issues. man. And I'm like a realist. Do you think they know a couple days a year? They know. They know a couple of days a year. They can actually be like that, but they don't want to look at it. And this is what now. with Trevor Noah.

If you don't know Neal Brennan, you probably don't know comedy, right? Neal Brennan is in. many ways like the Forrest Gump of comedy. He has been everywhere. He knows everyone. No comedian who is worth their salt in anything. does not have a story about Neal Brennan. I don't care where they're from. I don't care what they're doing. Every I'm talking about. comedians from other countries. as well, not just in America. like they know Neal Brennan. Right. I know some of your story, but I don't want to miss it, especially.

for the audience. So Neal Brennan is blown where? Philadelphia. Outside Philadelphia. Okay. I had like Ireland in my head. For some it feels like it. It feels like it's really is the Irish now. It really is. I'm an Irish citizen, but I got my. you are? Yeah, I got my citizenship, like, recently. look, I don't want to deal. with it, but congratulations. And just. You just do it. Just use it. I'm going to. Yeah, I'm going to move some money. The. Okay, so you born in Philadelphia. Philadelphia. The last of ten.

The last of ten. How many boys? How many girls? Six total. Six boys. Four girls and. Yeah. And then, I don't know, I was just. young. It's pretty chaotic. and it's a lot of kids in a house. It's a bit like an orphanage. and but no one comes. We, your parents, no one comes to take. I'm curious. Like the age gap. between one and ten and where your parents had. ten kids in 16, 16 years. But I'm curious about by the time.

your parents got to you, were they like off? Fuck, It was pretty. They do. They just. it was just kind of like, yeah, you'll it's. whatever is going to happen. is going to happen and what? But I would but still I was like, I worked a lot, I caddied I, but I was like drank, smoked. and my mom would just kind of not even we're. How old are you when this is how 13 a.m.. Yeah. Yeah, 13. 14. I got underage drinking when I was 16 cops. damn. Yeah.

So troublemaker? Kind of. Yeah, but I'd stop once. I remember the end of high school being like, I don't really need to drink. Like, I've never been that into. It was just like I was just doing it. I wasn't much I was. I was similar in that. like I was friends with a lot of friend groups. and pretty funny. and like, what was the was the family funny? Because I've never known. this part of your comedy. Like. who was the funny in your family. or where did the funny come from? My dad liked comedy. I think a lot of what he.

his jokes were kind of stolen. from like Frank Sinatra, like where I'd go like, I know that cadence, where I listen, if. I watch a Frank Sinatra, I mean, like, that's where he got it. His he was one of 13. So in it's a lot of boys, seven boys in his family. So so it was like a lot of sort of sarcasm and. and then. there's a funny story. at one year at Thanksgiving, I'm in high school, My one of my brothers. said, Kevin, you're. not even the funniest one of the family.

Neal is Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. Wow. Like kind of overly composed for funniest, I guess. Specifically for funniest. Yeah, I well, I guess in this case. Yeah. Yeah. Or something. Yeah there was. It was. But now having said that, my older one sisters were all so great to me. in that they, they all had jobs. that were interesting, that I got access to. My brother. Joe was a caddy on the PGA Tour,

so I would go to like PGA Tour events. and like I knew Kevin, Kevin was a comedian, so I got entree into that in high school, knew David Town and Louie knew like. met Louie when I was in. high school and Ray Romano, all these guys, Tommy worked at the Chicago Stadium. and Wrigley Fields. I used to go to Cubs games, Bulls games. I, I saw a white girl mistake Michael Jordan. for somebody else. That's how long ago this was, I imagine.

How long ago this was. a white girl said, Hey, are you. Orlando Woolridge? And his I remember my girlfriend's face. falling and be like, numb. I'm Michael Jordan. Yeah. This is this is prehistoric time. So I got I, I got a lot of possibilities in. I got to see a lot of possibilities. and like, a lot of life choices, I'm like pets. from the family. One of I think of big families. I I'm, I'm torn.

You know, my family. black brothers are split, right? So my two younger brothers, one. is ten years younger, one is 20 years younger. So for. all intents. and purposes, it feels like. we were all single kids in a way. Yeah, but then we all occupy an age position, you know? So I do feel like the eldest because of age. Yeah, but your mom's parenting changed a lot. So. I would say she's changed, but not her parents. So her ability to execute. her parenting style has evolved with age.

Like, I was talking to my youngest brother. about this the other day, it's like, I don't think my mom's vibe changed, but when I was young, she could chase me. When my brother was naughty, she couldn't chase him. as much as she could chase me. So I think she then had to adapt. But over a long distance she always got me. She always got me. But I always wanted like in a big family, like because I craved most of my life. And then I would meet people in mega. big families and they would say, I felt forgotten. I felt like there wasn't. enough love to go around.

Like, did. Did you feel like that? Yeah, I think just it's a. resources issue now, having said that, the the economist Thomas Sowell used to say. there are no solutions. There's only trade offs, which I think is just true about everything. So there's no. there's no one thing like that's better. because then only children. There's like downsides. to only children, apparently. Yeah. There you go. And they don't want to share. They don't know how to interact or whatever,

but they're very loved maybe to loved. I, I don't. So I don't. I think you could persuade me either way. I think if a kid's loved. That's good. If. If. But I wasn't necessarily, like, didn't get the most love from my dad. and specifically my mom, like, wanted to. Yeah, but, like, had to cook or whatever. Yeah, So then she did. But it was just it's just, you know,

she had her hands full, so. So I don't know. I don't know what the. I don't know what the best. What are you, you're, you, you're doing it. I know. How do you. Well I'm curious. Before I answer this, do you. and your siblings get on? Are you close? Remember that Thanksgiving story? Yeah. That spirit. For me, it's. so, I mean, it's. It's so. It's openly competitive. My dad was competitive with us. So I think that there's, like, that's kind of.

so he sounds like succession. I mean, I'm like, good dad. It's white trash succession. You said it now. Exactly. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it is. It's competitive. I one of my brothers. used to keep track of who made the most money. stock. Yeah. Yeah. And then. And then I and then Chappelle Show happened. and he was like, This is stupid. So. So.

So I don't you know, I would say it's it's, it's a mixed bag. I think some are close, some are not. But the good news about ten kids, you know. to be close alone. Yeah that's yeah, that's what I mean. It's multiple families in one fam. Yeah. Because most of the time I feel like. your siblings. sort of not have to be, but you have to be close to them. because these are the only people. who've shared your existence. But then when there's ten, there's. a lot of people who've shared you exist. You can choose whether that generational thing. Yeah, of my brother Joe, 16 years older than me.

So he was. he said to me recently, he's like, I realize, like, we never really knew. each other was like, Yeah, yeah. Would we have? He moved out when I was. four or something or maybe even? Yeah, Yeah. You know, so. it becomes more like an uncle thing. Also, the thing with siblings is, is like. if you weren't siblings, oftentimes you wouldn't be friends. I'm that's just like, you know, what are the odds? Yeah, the odds But now you're forced to. make some friends which is what. Okay, so tell me what your plan is. I mean, you're executing it. I'm reading this book.

called Siblings Without Rivalry. Okay? and I'm because that's when I'm. I want the book. You know, I'm really afraid. because I come from I don't know. I don't know if it's like. African family dynamics. I don't want to be generalizing here, but I always remember they were always like. fights about land and fights. That sounds so parochial. I was about to say that sounds like an. insult that someone would say, I know you sounds like an African. I'm just you to listen to one lecture. I'm like, They got some dog fighting over land.

Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. But like, I've just conflict was kind of ambient and. extended family. Me and my sisters are. figuring out we're very different. phases in our lives. But where. It's underneath. a big tree from Black Panther, right? Yeah, the one just a few passing the feud. Right? Vibranium, right? Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Few things. you need to focus on with your siblings. You know, the weirdest thing for me. with Black Panther is, like,

sometimes when I would I do that. because it's like the accent. that they're doing. is a South African accent, but then not a South African accent. So even when I do it, I feel like you have to. undo your. and you are in it. and do a different accent, right? Yeah. I to like because I want it. to match the general accent. So I didn't want to like come in. that would like a Yeah. Like what is this guy doing. Yeah. And then so I was like, No, I'll try and like figure out the vibe. that everyone's in. and then, and then I'll go from there. Yes.

And then so it's, it's very weird for me. Are you, are your parents still alive? My mom is, yeah. Mom's still. How old is she? 91. Wow. 99? Yeah. What was it like for you. when your dad passed away? Because, you know, you share very openly. in your special about how, like. And I think you and I have connected a lot. on this. growing up in a home with a man. who's very violent with his alcohol, like it's a terrifying existence. Yeah. And I think. you and I know we bond around this. I think a lot of our comedy is shaped.

by this or this feeling. But I've always wondered, what did it feel like. when your dad passed away? You know, the interesting thing. was like we'd kind of made peace. prior to him dying. The and then he did the thing with the well, which is in three mikes. But for those who don't know what what what I. Netflix is a streaming platform. and I'm especially on there. because the like. it's one of my three specials was one called.

three mice one called blocks. and one called Crazy Good What's the news? I'm pretty proud of my dad. We never really got along. And then he died and left. money as well to everyone but me. so it was just painful. That part was painful, But we, I, I just don't I it's weirdly like. doing three. Mike's got it out of me. He got the pain out of me. It used to weigh down.

I mean, it used to be like a cause of anger. Yeah. And now it's just. either from doing three mikes or something. I just can kind of see the positive in that. And I actually wrote him a note before he died. And love. like I appreciate the. socioeconomic position he put me in, meaning like I got to go to No, I'm paid for some of it. But like, NYU is not cheap. Yeah, anything was possible, right? Which I think is a thing that you.

is it. kind of as a parent, it's got to be one of the main goals. He one time said like, you know when I was growing up I. we were told all you had to provide. your kid was food and shelter. And I remember going like, you know, the government can do that. But so I guess it's. he's born in 1930, dad like, that's a different world. It's just a different and I've gotten more.

I don't even know how I've gotten empathetic, but I've certainly gotten less angry. as time goes on. I'm curious, were you angry because you thought. he was trying to spite you? Because, like, my instant. mind goes to as a parrot, he didn't leave you the money. because you were the most successful. And he's the kid that thought you. were going to be okay. That's like my giving him migration. Yes. But did you. was your anger because you're like, you're trying to spike me? Yeah, it felt like a flick. Like a last little flick.

Like, well, you're Mr. Tough Guy or something. But yeah, it could go either. It's one of the things that like, could be. and you have have you asked your mom, have you all your siblings? Yeah, basically yeah. They, they tried to talk him out of it all. so they knew. Yeah. So you didn't know leading up? I didn't know. Wow. They knew. and they tried to talk him out of it. and he was like that. Right. And he just.

and then I've heard from another brother. that he did he was sort of slagging him. about like, you're just here for the money. wow. Like, it was sort of real. He went down swinging. Yeah, so to speak. So I don't really know what to make of it. other than I'm glad I don't carry it, because it's just not it's not helpful. We're going to continue this conversation. right after this short break.

And so I'm curious, cause. you guys are both comedians. I'm not. Is comedy really that cathartic? Because like hearing you say, like, I released this thing, I surrendered it. and I can put it behind is the love of it. is the what you just say it so much. that it's in a weird way you'll relate. Yeah. It's like material you don't. believe anymore. Yeah. So you just. Chappelle is an observation. that jokes are like tires,

that the tread wears out. And if I'm doing a. show about my dad, you just after. was like I went. So there's. partially that, which is just sort of like. getting tired of saying something. And I would say it's more. from the spiritual stuff of like releasing it. But there was before the spiritual stuff, there was this idea of like, yeah, I don't know. I think I just sort of like talked it out. Have you talk last personally than I do? But, but your earlier shows are a little more.

Yeah, I actually, so I used to speak more personally. and then I realized. I won't make that mistake again. No, I think there was a. sort of a weird idea I adopted in and around. taking over The Daily Show. and was like, Don't make it about you. You know what I mean? It was like, okay, it's about the show, It's about the work. It's about the, you know, And now on the other side of it, now I'm going back into more personal material. Now I'm going back into. But it's funny, I never thought of. I never thought it was cathartic. So even even in your early work.

No, no, no, no. You experienced being surprised. You know, I'll be honest. I don't I don't think. and I don't think it's cathartic. for most comedians, if I'm honest. I think what happens a lot of the time is. comedians have found like a. it's almost like a. it's like a shield. that you that you can put in front of you. to seem. like you are dealing with the thing, but you are not dealing with the thing. And you and you're. speaking about it to people. So we were like, wow, you speaking about it, so you must be over it. So you must be.

But I don't think it's cathartic. The reason I don't think. it's cathartic is because. comedians get to do. the thing with the audience. That is, we escape with the laugh. do you know what I mean? And so I think real. catharsis requires you to stay in something. until it is released, as opposed to finding. a way to escape, you know? And so is it avoidance then? I don't know, something psychological like, No, look, it's not it's not avoidance. I think. and I was thinking about this. before this conversation. I was going to ask you this.

This generation of comedians. is the first I remember the shift. I don't know if you remember. there was a point in comedy where we saw. almost every few months a comedian. committing suicide somewhere. You would just hear. you'd walk into a comedy club. The good old days, everyone would be around. you would be. around a table in the club. and they'd just be like a sad feeling. And you be like, What's going on? And be like, did you hear about Bobby? Did you hear about blah, blah, blah?

And yeah, maybe like, what happened? They like, yeah, no, they found him in. a hotel room in Pennsylvania. They found him in a hotel room in Ohio. Somehow they found him in a hotel room. and this was constant. It was just it. and it was almost. it was almost expected in many ways. And then I don't know what happened, but suddenly something shifted. All of a sudden, comedians wouldn't be ordering the. chicken wings backstage. They were ordering the the celery and the kale. and the baby carrots and the hummus. And then they wouldn't be ordering a drink like.

like a cocktail or whiskey. They'd be ordering water, you know, then you'd know. And then comedians be like, yeah, I got it. I got to leave now. I'm working out in the morning. I mean, we're in a way, it's a contradiction. in that that people are getting. I think culture in general is getting more. like self-care. Yeah, Wellness. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. Right Now, the thing. I wanted to talk to you about. was I had some I want to talk. to you about, which is the what I call.

wisdom theater or wellness theater, performative, wellness, performative wisdom. Meaning we talked about a mutual friend of ours. who wanted to be the most healed guy. Jesus. Yeah. This is killing me. Where people people go on podcasts, they host podcast, they they know it. And you know, shooting. yourself, everyone, how many included? Yes. Where it becomes about performing wisdom,

performing self-care, performing altruism, performing, Yeah. Performing and all that. And it's like this, isn't it, either? Do you think it's even helpful. to have all of this? Like, I meditated this morning. and just all that stuff because I believe it's. all for. in service of being better at capitalism. I always say, you know, the easiest way to see it, I'll tell. my friends, is when you look at a post, let's say online, as soon as somebody says,

Here's how I did it, or, you know, this is how I became more productive, or I'm like, that's not the point. Yeah, right. Like meditating is not about becoming. more productive. Buddha was all about memorizing and grinding. If you know the story at all, it's all about, I don't know. I just think we're in the age of it. right now and I accept it, you know? And I'll be honest, I, I am I don't, I don't mind the fact. that the trend right now is to be healthy. Right. Because that's a trend.

if you're going to pick trends. Yeah, it's like love, wellness. It's the best work on this country and inside. and you don't even want to test it. I'm vegan, so I don't want to. There was a time in comedy. where one thing comedians. all shared was comedy, right? It didn't matter like who you were, where you were from, what you did. Black, white, old, young woman, man, it really didn't matter. It didn't matter. We had this thing. where we would go into a comedy club. and it was like comedy time. Yeah.

And we all just had comedy. And then. I noticed over the past few years, and it's funny, I'm. less worried about it for comedy, and I'm more worried about what it means. for society is I've noticed. a creep of polarization even in comedy. like comedy used to be. Everyone does everything and they're comedians. and someone will get on stage. and say the craziest joke. that is whatever, you know, can be. anything misogynistic, racist, you name it. But it's within the confines of comedy. Like they're. using the tools to make a joke about it, Right?

And then now comedy slowly becoming like, well, those people, that's their politics. We don't do comedy with them. And these people, we don't do comedy. with them. Like, do you think politics is going to end comedy. as we know it? I it is. Well, it's cold. It's the world. like I've known Joe Rogan 30 plus years. and I didn't know. his politics until nine years ago.

And it's not because they were they. he didn't have any. It's just because you didn't know. You literally didn't know what somebody's. politics were. Yeah. Until I'm going to say 2008, the Internet, social media. And then once. social media started, then it became like. Twitter and dunking on people. and see so-and-so's tweet. That's. that's I'm triggered and that's inappropriate. and that's they're going to. and now I have to like. mute them or I have to not like.

I've actually thought, can I like this tweet? Because there's going to be some people. who will see that you liked it. Yes. Yeah. And then. we're all part of so many different groups. that we've always been. But it just kind of didn't. They weren't. you didn't wear them all all the time. Yeah. Now it's almost like the. there's a Daily Show joke. I think where they had. the like the, the Formula. One or the NASCAR sponsorships. Right. But it was all the badges. All the badges of like people that had donated. That's where all these things now.

And we used to just not be. I was thinking this back when, when Elon Musk had. the the rocket come back down to earth. I remember watching that first I texted him. I was so excited. I got known him 29 years ago. You're clearly a verified user. The yeah, I watched I watched the rocket. come down first. I thought it was a fake video. because it's so amazing. Like, did you watch the longer one? Like, yeah, that's what I'm saying.

when I'm talking about this is going to land. So I thought it was going, but I thought someone had reversed the video. because I was like, This makes no sense. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, physics. Well, what is happening here? And I'm watching all of this. And then I. texted all my friends, especially like friends. who love tech, and I was like, This is the most amazing thing. Have you seen this? And I was like, Have these? And people were like, Screw that guy. I know. I was like, Whereas you were going. like, maybe the fascist, It's worth it. That's not what I was saying.

That's not what I was saying. And I was just now learned on the podcast. I have to now be very clear that. that's not what I was. No, no, no. I don't represent me. The no. And even in my group of friends, I didn't understand. and I. still don't understand. why people feel the need to tell me. how they feel about a thing. that I know they feel about. But I'm like, I'm your friend. If I send you a video. of an Elon Musk rocket being caught from space. Yeah. And I go, This is amazing.

Don't say to me Elon Musk sucks. Yeah, I know how you feel. They're afraid in that thing of like, if I like this tweet, am I going to get in trouble? Yeah, but this is in our own right now. But we're friends, right? But it's infected. That as well. man, that's terrifying to me. It really has. I think that is terrifying to me. Once once people. start releasing texts in court cases, in in doxing any of this that's like that.

This is bad. No, this is bad. No, I I'm going to go on the record and say. I will never judge anybody for texts. that get released unless those texts. indict them about something. they've done in public because of the. it's like a comedy club. It goes back to the same rule. If we're in a comedy club, we know that the people in here. are trying to say things that elicit. a laugh from the audience. So a comedian will make a joke about anything.

They'll make a joke about murder, they'll make a joke about genocides, I'll make a joke about rape. They'll make a joke. I heard a comedian make a joke. referring to a bunch of suicides. as the good old days. That was I was on this podcast. that was on one of the episodes. What? Go back through the episodes. and you'll find it. But but, but that's what I mean. It's like there's the context and, and we when we maintain that context, yeah, people know, yeah, you can send something. to your friend or your family member. that is egregious, It can be the most horrible thing. towards them or towards somebody else.

But because of the context. they know that you're joking. They know that you give them saying, and I actually worry about that world. I don't want to live in a world. where we now have to sort of like. thoughtfully, Yeah, we have to. And I will go, Yeah, I've never had that thought. I do not think anything. that is bad could be funny. I think I'll. never say in private. what you won't stand behind in public. No, but it's a joke. I wouldn't say menacing. Right. You know, I say crazy stuff in private. You do actually.

Then there's no difference. between private and public. Yeah, obviously there are private act. There's things that you do in private. that you would never do in public, but just be who you are. I think it's easier. Have you ever been on a group chat. or even a 1 to 1 chat where someone's. texted something. and you've been like, Boy, that's hot. Yeah. I mean, that's what text of all I agree. I agree with me. But have you ever gone Do I give it a ha ha. Do I give it a thumbs up. Do I. What do I give this.

and if it ever goes public, I've truly had that. So I, I think that society, you know, it's. not to delve too. deep into the world. of like the shadow self. and all of these things, But we need to accept that as human beings. The paradox of the brain. is that it is. thinking about what. it should not think about, even when we're telling it. to think about something, it's mostly and intrusive thoughts. Exactly everything. I need percent interest. when I'm on the freeway.

Most of the time I'm thinking, crash. that crash, run over, run over there. Run over them. Crash that crash. I'm not doing. it, though, but my brain is going. What would happen? What would happen? What would happen? What would you know? You know what I mean? So I actually personally, as Trevor, I go I judge people. based on their actions, not their thoughts, because I go, that is, in my opinion, what makes you a good person. is that you act in a way. that is good for other people or for yourself, and you don't follow all the thoughts that are. In fact, if you follow all the thoughts, I think they would put you in an asylum. They would say that you are. you listen to the voice, you just be in jail.

Exactly. I personally just feel suspicious of people. who are like nice about people all the time. I just like that person. Is that I mean, that is true. No, but. yeah, I'm with you. But the world we're in right now, like, Yeah, if you say anything about anyone, public. or private, it has to be. a nice or kind thing. because I just think it's, it's. not the human experience sometimes. Like because I'm like, I don't like them. And people like why I'm like, it's. just a feeling they've done nothing. I just like, that's a real thing to have, like this. visceral reaction to someone.

But I think the way our. politics are in the world, the way the world is going, is just that people think that. they have to play nice all the time. It's just they just pay more. It's just the the, the it's creeping. Do you think it's hurt comedy as a whole? No, I don't. I mean, I don't there's no. comedy. First of all, it's never been more popular. It's never been more lucrative. So this idea that comedy is being hurt. or cancel culture or any of that stuff, it's like everyone I know that.

I want to do a joke like, Yeah, you got to be careful as a comedian because, you know, you could say something. and then somebody will clip it. and the next thing you know, you'll be doing arenas. It's everyone I know that gets canceled. It's you get canceled up. It's like it's like it's the crucible. It's like, how are you going. to respond to this? Yes. And then that's how people judge you. And if you if you cower and go and genuflect. and or if you ignore it or if you double down. or there's like ways to do it, but it makes the. audience trust you more, I think. Yes.

I remember. I bumped into Shane Gillis and. and I remember chatting to him and I was like, and I genuinely mean this. I was like, I I'm so proud of Shane. Gillis as a human being and as a comedian. because he got fired off of SNL. People discarded him. They're like, He's out. And then he amassed. a huge amount of fans who were like, Yeah, previous prime cases like,

bring more racism, bring more. They were like, do do the thing that. and I will never forget. His first shows that he booked. I think was at the stand actually in New York. Shane comes out. and he basically addresses. the fact that people. have come there. to see racist Joe and he's like, That's not what I do at all. Like a Chinese. Yeah. And he and he did and then he, he subverted the whole thing. and he joked about it. and then he. and even now, like, I go genuinely, Shane Gillis is one of the people. where and I. don't think anyone, quote. unquote, let's say, has an excuse, but he would have had an.

excuse to be an asshole. Shane was like, No, he's like, Hey, man, I made some jokes. You didn't like them. I'm still going to make jokes. And genuinely, no, I think he's one of. the best comedians working in the world. And when you watch his. comedy, I don't care what you. by the way, conservative, liberal, whatever. you think you are, Shane Gillis is funny. But I also think it's amazing to see. somebody who was able to withstand. the like the, you know, the. the horde that supports the worst instincts. Yeah. You know, because someone one person can go, Neal, how could you say that you get canceled. And then what happens is.

there's a crowd. that comes in to like, claim you. and they're like, yes. Neal Yes, yeah. Join us. We all the things. Yes. And you know how we feel about those people. And you're like, Man, I just made a joke. that some people didn't like. And they're like, No, but Neal do only those jokes. Yeah. And Shane, I don't know, like how he did it as a human. because that must have been really hard. I think he shrugged it off. He just seemed to kind of go like, I don't know how, though. This next. segment called Memories.

is brought to you by Starbucks. The holidays aren't. just about grand gestures, but the little moments. that bring warmth, connection. and joy to the season. I remember the first time. I experienced a winter Christmas in America. It felt like I was stepping into a movie. because you see, back home in South Africa, Christmas is all about summer, right? It's barbecues, cold drinks. and running around outside in the sun. That's how I grew up. But here I was sitting by the window.

watching snowflakes fall. Something I'd only ever seen on TV before. Everything felt. so still like the world. outside had been wrapped in a thick, cozy blankets inside. It was warm, almost too warm, to be honest. The heat was on and there was a smell. of cinnamon in the air, which, by the way, Americans love. I couldn't help but laugh at myself. I was bundled in three layers of clothing, even though everyone else. seemed perfectly comfortable.

in their one sweater, a very ugly sweater. We spent the evening. indoors playing board games. where people were fighting over sheep. I still don't understand. what that game was about, but what struck me was the coziness of it all. Everyone gathered together. and the sound of laughter. filled the room. It was such a contrast. to the Christmases I had grown up with, where everything was. loud and outdoors, and this was slower. and it was more intimate. And honestly, I loved it just as much. There's something magical.

about being stuck inside. because of the cold, surrounded by people you care about. while the rest of the world feels. like it's standing still. That was the moment I realized. Christmas is not really about the weather. or the food. It's all about who you spend it with. There's no denying. moments like. these are. so much more magical when they're paired. with the comforting flavors. of the holiday season. Create cool memories this holiday season. Order your favorite holiday beverage. on the Starbucks app today.

You get in trouble from time to time. And I don't say that joking, but how do you how do you how do you. what's your philosophy? So it's funny, Christiane and I. were talking about this. We're literally talking about it. So like after the Tanahashi. episode on the podcast, right. I had you name it, I had people phoning me, everybody. from everywhere, you know. So every like you run the spectrum. from friends, friends, close friends, going like Trevor, like, how could you have that man on?

And that is extremist and it's. anti-Semitic and, and this is trash. And why would you even sit there. and listen to him. and all the way through to Stranger. just being like, This is why. you should be dead? I wish apartheid had killed you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you got my message. and the two of you know me. in those moments, more than most people. Right. And the first thing I do is listen, because I go like, All right, tell me everything. Just tell me everything, you know?

And so, like, a friend of mine would just be like, he's like, you know, I can't believe you. Why didn't you ask Tennessee this. and why didn't you ask him? And I responded, and I said, I was like, the same way. If somebody's. coming to talk about like their documentary. about something that happened in Israel, I'm not going to push. them on. everything about. what's happening in Gaza, because this is the part of the story. that we had to talk about. And it was it was interesting, like when I have those conversations, I just listen to what person is saying, what they're feeling, and then I try and understand. where we're missing each other, you know?

So the one note, for instance, I said to a friend, one of my friends, he was. he was like, I hated the fact that. you talked. about Jewish people. and then you talked about Israel into. my Jewish people, but then. you conflated the two. And I was like, yeah, actually, you're right. Okay. Yeah. So that's what I'm curious about. How much. because I find that. how much does your. listening affect your judgment conversations? How how big does how big is it? How much growth is there? Good. Because to me, I always see Trevor. as very like, unflappable.

Maybe that's like. the Swiss-German, like the veneer. of like, No, he seems unflappable. So I was like because it was like. the backlash was a bit weird. So I hit him up. But I think Trevor just heals quickly. and better. I call him Wolverine. like he, like heals very quickly and better. because he takes a ton of steroids. Make, you know, maybe. I don't know. It's it's the shrooms, I think. But no, like, I think he does feel. that's what I'm no I feel. all of the feels I feel. all of my future Pisces I feel feels.

Day What do you feel. more sensitive know I am very sensitive. and I feel like I wouldn't have. I'm like, But you don't know, so. you don't see it. So there's a few things. that you asked me this question, and I realize there's a few things. that have helped me understand this. And and it's funny because I think, Neal, you'll have something. similar but different. because of your upbringing. So first of all, I grew up in a house. and in a country where there was a. lot of violence, right? And so when I was a child watching this,

I never once looked at it and went, yeah, this is this is right. Yeah. I even talk to my mom now. And I go, Why would you get so angry. when you were hitting me? And she's like, Because you wouldn't listen. I'm like, Yeah, but. why do you get angry, though? I was like, You know, you could have just, like, done it as like, like, All right, kid, here comes your punishment. And then she would say. she's like, I was so frustrated. And I was like, I was like, I know. I you know, cut something open. I know I dismantled the TV. I know I burnt down a room. I know what have I did. But even me as a child, I would go, That was not ideal,

but I'm not going to lose my cool over this. And then I'd get my beating. and then I would cry and not feel it. I'd feel everything. But the thing that would stick with me. is how it didn't make sense. for people to lose their cool. And I, you know, I talk to my friends. about when we have these big fights, but I go. every one of our parents, especially African parents. But I mean, I know you know how Neal grew up. You know, parents were beating kids and this was like. a normal thing. And now we joke about it. You be like, you pray there's no shoe around. and you pray like, Eddie Murphy had those jokes.

and we all laughed about it. But I think I grew up watching this going, This is not. it doesn't seem to be ideal. and it doesn't seem to get where I'm going. So maybe what I did a little too much. was I internalize it, so I keep it in me. But then what I do is I. and that's what ADHD helps. I'm having six conversations. now at the same time. So you're speaking to me. and I'm listening to what you're saying, and then I'm sort of. going to like one treat, which is like, okay, how do I agree with you? How do I disagree with you? What's happening here? What's not happening here? Do I connect with you? Don't connect with you.

Can I see your humanity? And I always go. if I see you as a person, which I do. with most human beings on the show, genuinely, I go like, I'll still find. something to connect with you on. And so on the other side of it, when you ask me like, how much does it change. me, I genuinely listen. So the person. almost only has to tell me once. and I will keep that. because it means something. So when my friend said to me, my friend. who's Jewish. and spent time in Israel, said, I didn't like that. you said Jewish. and Israel, but you conflated the two.

And I was like, okay, I will never do that again. But then when it comes to like arguing about. whether or not it's an apartheid state, I said, You are my friend and I love you, but we're not going to agree on this. And I don't think we need to agree on this. to remain friends. In fact, as my friend, I hope that you'll still keep me in your life. and I will work to keep you in my life. But I don't want to lose you. because of this thing, because there are so many things. that we're going to disagree on. This is just one of the biggest ones, you know, and. and I don't know, you know,

you know, whether it's. just this moment in time or social media, I don't know what it is, but I feel like people are like. people have less and less ability. now to maintain friendships. or to maintain connections. that also hold a space of disagreement. or conflicts. The same thing. It's that thing about. if I like, if I write haha to this. text your. you have this constituency. in your head or imagined or whatever.

that I can't say disagree on this. but love you the same. because then you'll lose your constituency. Yeah and you see for me. that that I don't think that's. I don't think that moves us forward. because I've always believed. that people don't change by hanging out. with people who are like them. I agree. I think we change by rubbing on each other. It's rubbing off on each other. And I think the common humanity. That's why I come back to standup. I think of the comedians I.

used to meet in comedy clubs. And I still to this day, I mean, everything racist, misogynistic whatever you want to call it. But but they're also human beings. Yeah, you know what I mean? And I'm not excusing. any of the things they did the same way. I'm sure someone wouldn't excuse. some of the things I did or said. or as a person, you all have your faults. But I would. the one thing that would connect us first. and foremost is that we were comedians, You remember, we'd. even say as comedians to be like, Man, have you seen that, guys? And you bet you've been.

It is the most racist bit you've ever seen, but God, it's funny. Yeah. And holding that paradox, holding that cognitive. dissonance, I think was key to us. And you would see not all, but you would see. a lot of the comedians evolve over time. because society would evolve. and you would shift and you would. and you'd find. a lot of the comedians. were doing the jokes. they were doing back in the day, wouldn't do them anymore, and they would evolve slowly. My objection to. this primary is like, It's fine. when it's all like theoretical.

We're working on jokes. That person's a bit raised. as a person, a bit misogynistic. But we're living in a time. where women like women, currently. can't get abortions in many completely ways. So there's like real world implications, whether it's sexism, racism, transphobia. So I think it's it's difficult because. these people. in our lives. that have unsavory views, it feels like they're winning. I feel like the world is shifting to the right. I feel like the world is a scarier place. And that's just true.

Like you look at elections, you look at all of this stuff. And so I was like, It's harder. for people to be like, Well, I can. I can see you as a whole human. being when your vote is the reason that like. I was terrified. to do IVF in Texas. because I was like, well, I'm. a woman with a history of loss. and if I need to get a. and C, will I be able to get one? Will her doctor give me one? Right. So there's like real life implications. for like these controversial. right wing or even like super far left ideas. And some people like, I actually don't want to be around. my in my personal life and I don't blame them.

Do you know what I mean? Of course. And that's I in the two thoughts. I had is it's a bit like being friends with. two people who don't get along. And you're like, I was just with. you have lunch with somebody, and then you go there. and then you're like, Yeah. And you're like, Am I a piece of garbage? Both of these people have been good to me. Yeah. And then the other thing I thought I had was, does two jokes lead to action?

If you make a joke, does that mean you stand with. Yeah that yeah. And I b and that that's where comedy comes in. because it's like, do I? I don't know. I can make a joke about anything. I don't stand with it. It just my brain made did that construction. and I was like, this might be fun, but if a comedian does their job properly. and then the joke is good enough, you won't get in trouble. So I used to think that. But then I realized we've robbed. the world of context, you know?

And on one of the previous. one of our previous episodes here, when Yuval Noah was here, right. Took the author of Sapiens and the Nexus, he said something that. really stuck with me, and it was. We are living in an age. where we have more information. than we've. ever, ever, ever, ever, ever had in our lives. We have access to more information, but we don't have enough time to process it. And I think the problem with like comedy now. it's all jokes even, is there's. no context anymore. Yeah. You know, then even when Twitter began,

the first people who followed. comedians on Twitter and people all agree. that this was a place. where people are making jokes, they are not real things. Right. And then the context spread the algorithm, move things around. Now you're sitting at home. minding your own business. You are super religious person, and then some video will come on your feed. where someone's trashing religion, making jokes about it, and you're like, You get angry, but there's no context. You didn't want to see that. Yeah, you didn't ask to see.

And that's I think. that's like. one of my key issues with social media. is the fact that. people are not asking to see. they're not opting in in any way. You know, I feel like it should be like. an opt in as opposed to an opt out. But people are seeing videos. that they don't want to see, videos. that are like actively. making them angrier, Saddam, more afraid, etc.. And I think that's actually hurting comedy. and hurting the idea of comedy as opposed. it being or not being. That doesn't make sense. I also think. there's some things that people should be, Listen, I like shame. I'm not like you.

Do you love? I'm, you know, and I'm just I don't know, Mike King, whether you're a. comedian, whoever you are, I don't think shame know. I'm proud of that. So the one place doesn't shame is king, okay. No shame by nothing. I think that's some things that either. way, I have an erection going, okay, You. know, I'm just like, there's some things. If you say them, they could be consequence. Like, I know every time I say. something, I'm just something. I'm trying to teach my kids something. If I've had to learn the hard way. is like you say stuff. Sometimes people get offended. and there's going to be a backlash.

So you're correct in that. civil rights are a little wobbly. in certain respects. Right. And but there's also people. there's there's a huge incentive to grievance. There's an incentive. The incentive to being in. a conversation used to be. somebody make a joke, you'd laugh. The incentive was to like, be agreeable and hope and enjoying. Yeah, in some ways. And now the incentive is to take offense. and to be like,

this is a chance for me. to get all my picket signs out. Yeah. And represent for my, my invisible constituents. I agree. But I. think we're also in a time. for a lot of people where they feel. there's a lot to be aggrieved about. I agree. I mean, so we just have to. acknowledge that, like, people are constantly offended. because a lot is very offensive. The issue I have with it is that. is the getting offended. It is you. on the other side of getting offended. And I okay, I see this from the. let's take comedy out of it for a moment. I think of language.

So I speak many. languages, as you know, Neal Brown. And one of the things I love. about speaking multiple. languages is the fact that you learn. how offensive. the same thing is. in another culture, in another language. You didn't change anything. You moved your hand in a different way. You did a thumbs up in one country in the like. What did you say about my father? And you're like, Wait, what? You put your hand under your chin. in one country and they're like, What are you saying about, my family? Trevor, Don't you adjust? No, no, no. Let's just in different. Yes, right.

But that's because I've moved two places, right? We are no longer moving. So we now live in a different language. That's what I mean. So we're no longer moving. before it made sense. I go to Dubai. When I'm in Dubai, I acknowledge. I'm in the United Arab Emirates. I will respect the cultures. and the laws accordingly. When I go to South Africa, I know my people. I will respect my people. and I will work accordingly. I do this everywhere in the world, but now I'm not going anywhere. You're not anywhere. You're not going anywhere. You're at home tweeting your friend,

talking your people. You're not going anywhere. And then it takes you. where the people don't agree with you. But you didn't go there. That's what I'm trying to say. And so the problem. with offense. is that everything is offensive to everyone. If there is no context. So you can literally say something. You could say to your own. grandparents, you'd be like, How old are you, granny? And they'll be like 93. They're like, Warp, It's almost time. And your grandparent laughs. Ha ha ha. Yeah, You take that video, you put it on your. your own social media.

page for you. and your few friends and your. you might have 20 followers. for some reason that sparked something. All of a sudden. there's a deluge of people. coming to you saying, how dare you? Do you know what ageism does to our culture? Abuse? You discard. I don't care that they laugh. They probably laugh. because they scared of you and you. and you're like, No, this is my grandparent. They taught me this humor. I'm laughing with them. For instance, I've seen comedians. and you've seen this. I've seen comedians who have disabilities. deaf, blind. They have cerebral palsy, whatever it is,

they make a joke online. People don't know that they have. that disability and they just come off them. How could you? How dare you? Piece of trash. And then their fans come in and go like, excuse me, they have the disability. and the people are like, I didn't know. I'm so old. Well, that's so funny. And I'm like, What just changed? Yeah, nothing has changed. Your context and the way you. saw the thing changed. And so I do agree with you. Yes, words have consequences. Yes. But I think we should never take. for granted our participation. in some of these ideas where we are choosing.

to get angry on some of it. We are choosing to take it and make it like, personally, I do this in my life. with my friends, with my people. I encourage people. to just it's almost like filtering. focus on the things. that you should actually be angry about. because there's a lot of things. that actually it's like, you just, you just misinterpreted it. It's you really just misinterpreted it. It's a different perspective, different language, different culture, different vibe, different story.

And it actually doesn't spoil your life. We're going to continue this conversation. right after this short break. I don't know what the solution to this is, but I still go back to. my belief that the solution. doesn't lie in people siloing themselves. I, I believe, as Trevor. This person. has no incentive. and will never even shift a little bit.

if I'm not in their life. And I will never see their perspective. if I'm not in their life. Trevor you have that Kumbaya. Mandela But it's not Kumbaya, you. know? But it's something Jive Turkey. No, no, I'm saying, okay, Trevor hired me because I was on Twitter. talking about The Daily Show. That's how we met. That's it. No, that's not why you see the why was right. Wait, no. You came across my tweets, right? Yes. this person really disagrees. with what I'm doing on The Daily Show.

You found me interesting. My mind you. That's why I'm meeting you. He's the type of guy. that we like to see those tweets. You know? You know, I'm a hire. That bitch that is Trevor. Like, he just that's a direct quote, but it's like even the way he has it. And look at where we are now. It's you. You were part of helping me win an Emmy. You were part of helping make the show. the best thing it's ever been. Like. I don't know how you hold that. It's something I really admire as someone. You can be very tribal. Actually, politically, my friends, are Hollywood. Have you changed in any way?

That's what she definitely has. I've changed my opinion much. Lots of stuff. yeah. Thank. Do I do? I completely disregard that. So can I just say something. about both of you real quick? As your friend? Both of you, I've seen. both of you change. because of me. And both of you have changed me. because of you. Because you're in my life. So, Christiane, I've watched. you become funnier and looser as a person. in the time that I've known you. Like I've literally watched you. when So I like what you said. But like with the Twitter thing,

yes, you were trash talking me and trash. talking The Daily Show and everything. But more importantly, I saw somebody who was super really. like the way you saw the world. and the way. you, like, understood ideas and what you brought in. and your journalistic brain. I was like, Damn, this is amazing. I didn't. I wasn't hiring people on Twitter. who were just like, Trevor Noah, you suck. You're back to your country. I wasn't like, Yeah, this person needs. to come to The Daily Show. Yeah, it's not about that. I'm able to charity there. Go ahead.

I'm able to look at the. thing that lies beneath how you respond to it. No, I admire. And so, like, when I look at the two of you, you become. like, more chill, more everything, right? Neal, let me tell you something. When I met Neal Brennan, so I'll I'll take you on a little journey. When I met Neal Brennan. for the very first time, I was on Twitter. and this was the good old days of Twitter. where people were just making jokes. There was nothing serious on it. It was just Christina Kumail trying, and there was just jokes. And I remember.

Neal had really funny jokes on Twitter, and I was like, This guy's funny. And I followed him. And then it said, co-creator. of Chappelle's Show. And I was like, Wait, what? And I went in. and I didn't I hadn't even, like, watched the Chappelle's Show in that way. I never had cable. I couldn't afford it. All these things stopped growing. Whatever, you know, copper roof. Yeah. You know how it is. You know, whatever. Yeah. Tough, tough life. Let's keep it moving. But I then went. and I watched the show, and then I saw the first sketch, the. black white supremacist. And then you're in the back. Then you're like, your head explodes, and. But then I, like, started. I was like, Damn, this guy's funny.

And he's he's. just been in everything that I love. So I follow him on Twitter. and now I just love his jokes. And then. I come to America for the first time. doing like, random shows. And I meet him at the Comedy Store. in Los Angeles, and I'm walking through the corridors. They're very dark, very like sad satanic. And it really is. And and I walked in. and I saw his face and I was like, wait a minute, like Neal Brennan.

And he was like, I know you. He's like, Doesn't everyone. what, are you from another country? Yeah, it was very like it was like, like, wow. Cigaret and, and I was like, what? And I was like, I was like, Yeah. Hey, nice to meet you. I was like, I love you. Follow you on Twitter, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Neal was like, very dismissive. and there was like, okay, whatever, man. And, and like, just very like, you know, leaning. against the wall, like, like it's. almost like a scene from Grease, but without the leather jackets, it's like leaning on the wall. and it's like, whatever, kid, keep on moving.

And I walk. I walked in, I went to do my sets or something. And then when I was walking out, Neal goes like, Hey, wait a minute, we've come back here. He's like, Where are you from? And I was like, I'm from South Africa. And he's like, Are you the guy? He's like, You followed me. I was like, Yeah, I follow. He's like, You're the reason. I've got people. What did you say? You said, you're the reason. I've got people with exclamation. marks in their names following. Neal. Neal Neal was like, one Dystrophies. Yeah, you said like one day. I was on my Twitter clicks and.

it was just like Brad and Jenny following me. And then the next day it was like, What? And I was like, Yeah, terrifying. And I was like, That's my friend also. I told him about your tweets and, and that's how we meet. Yeah. Neal was like, and. I hope you don't mind me saying, but like Neal was, I mean, you were grumpy. You were just like, the world is like. everything bad? Yes, Energetically dark, always. Just like everything is shit. And God, what do you know? Religion. And just like.

And why are you smiling? He used to hate that. I smiled. He's like, You serious, Neal? Neal would even say to me sometimes, like, What are you so happy about? I don't think I said. He said, I may have energetically said it. He said, No, he said it. He said. He said, What are you so happy about? In fact, in fact he has a Neal. and I've told the story before somewhere, I'm sure, but maybe with you. But like Neal, I remember. you and I was sitting in a random. it wasn't even a. I don't know what it was. It was a diner. It was a diner in Denver. Neal was doing the improv. I think I was doing the comedy or okay,

the comedy works. So we having late, late, late. dinner after was like, you know, midnight type thing. We've both done our shows. And then classic Neal with his cynicism, you know, Neal's like, How was your weekend? Did you make enough money. to barely pay for your flights and your food? You ate you African food? Yeah. And I was like, Yeah, because we made no money. Yeah, Basically, as a comedian, you were lucky if you came home. with a little money from the road. Yeah, you're just breaking even. That's barely 12 years ago.

This isn't, like, forever. Yeah, it was 12 years. And at some point, Neal turns to me. and he goes, What are you doing here? Yeah. And I was like, What are you mean? And he's like, Man, He's like, I've seen your life in South Africa. He's like, Why are you doing this? He's like, Go home. People. told me to go back to where I came from, and he's like, this People love you. Then you're doing a arenas. He's like, Here. you you're in a comedy club. where people came in for free. and they don't know you.

They don't even like you. And he's like, Why? He's like America, he's like, America's. not ready for a What did you say? America is not right. Americans don't like foreign yes comedians. Yeah, you're like Americans. don't like foreign comedians. And then we went through. a list and he wasn't wrong. He's like, Ricky Gervais is the only one. who made it. And they made a show. They made Americans. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. And then. and then Neal said this to me. and we had this discussion. back and forth for a while, back. and forth, and I was like, and I was. I took it in a good way. I'm not Neal sick. Thank you. What like, wonderful.

You such a good friend. He's like, I don't even know. if I'm your friend. We just. We just want the same city. But I always. and I've always seen this, you know, I've always said that I was always like, What a sweet, loving guy. I was like, This is a sweet, loving. human being. who's been hurt by something. and someone in the world. And now he wears like. a little shell on the outside, you know, the same way I see you, the same way I see everyone. genuinely, we see past all this just down. to the real you. I don't like to be seen, by the way. That's very uncommon. So I was like, this guy's a nut.

Because I think sometimes I meet people, sometimes who are. very nice, and I go, This person is an asshole. and I do not want to know. them as a human being. Yeah, they will burn. your life down if they get the chance. Yeah. And then I meet people. who are prickly and I'm like, you. You're a good person. Yeah. You know, you hide. Also like to say that once John Oliver made, I called him. This was really fun. and said, okay, you can come back. No joke. I stand corrected. Yes. He literally phoned me. Yes. And I was in South Africa. Yes.

I go, all right, you can come back because there was. no it was kind of pointless. Yeah. Yeah. But my point is, when did he get sweeter? But this is what I'm saying. got sweeter over time, especially in the last five years. What happened? What made you. I remember telling you. about therapy, and you were like, Emory. didn't tell me about that. No, I remember talking to you about, you were like, Man, that's a therapy. I've been going to therapy. since I was 23. Yeah, but now you went into it. once Trevor told me. No, you know. You know what I mean? You opened your heart, Neal, I.

my heart. From Iowa, Skin, DMT and MDMA. I'm sorry. I don't know how. Who did you tell? Who did you tell about? Religion. Who do you call when you said like, I now believe there might be a God? You were one of the. first people I believe I call. Really? Yeah. So because I. knew he'd like it, But, you know, I was coming back to, you know, what you see, he had. Trevor doesn't like to speak about him. Even even cared that I would like. I remember what people are saying. Do as I would. My God. Which is a nice. That's what I mean. That's what I. Yeah, I never was a jerk.

I seemed I seem that's my point kind. That's my points. But Trevor, the thing about you, because you don't like talking about yourself, but I want to make it about you. that I find remarkable. And I'm still learning. Is that you? Yeah. And I think it shows. in your fans, in your life, you're able to have like this big tent. where loads of different people can come in. and you never feel uncomfortable. Like you could just live. indifference and tension and maybe that. because of your child. Yeah, because of my childhood, but in a way that I'm still not there yet. yeah, but you were lucky. You grew up like,

first of all, you're Nigerian, so you always had, like, your people. Yeah. And then also, like your family and your. I've grown up as a singular. You know what I mean? I was. I wasn't. Still am the only person. in my family who even looks like me. Obviously, you can find features in my parents. You be. I see. Yeah, but no, my mother's a a different color to me. My father's a different color to me. We look, we are different people. And in the family I'm a different person. And did you get anything? So does. he feel like lonely or you just know it.

was the opposite? Funny enough, it didn't. It didn't make me feel lonely. because I don't spend all the time. looking at myself, which is great. It's interesting that you say, like you. or maybe you said it like that you. because that you are like kind of tribalist. in terms of nobody looks like you. So so the whole everyone's your tribe. You could take it as a. as a prescription to be lonely. Yeah. Or you take it. It's like, all right, well, I guess I'm everybody. Yeah. No, I, I was just like, you know,

because it was the only way I was. And I think most importantly, my, my type nucleus treated me as the in. So it's not like my cousins. treated me straight, my grandmother, my mother, my, nobody in my circle. I was never fully, fully just Trevor. And then. because I understand other people's language, I would find a way to get in quickly. And then my friends, very quickly. I mean, till this day, you all know my friends, but they just treat me like me. Yeah. So I, I don't even look down on me like, well,

my skin is different, you know, I don't do that. And so let me ask you this. Why do you think I would love to know? Why do you think, Neal, you were always more comfortable. and more honest. in black spaces than most white people? I'd never I've just never been that racist. Would you say that? No, because everybody's racist. You know, I just think it just a matter of degree. Yeah. So I've just never been that racist. I had access. because one of my brothers had worked. at the Wrigley Field.

and all of his coworkers were black. They were always so nice to me. Eddie, Eddie, Michael Jordan, Spike Lee, Arsenio, Right. I mean, this is like a creepy story. Mike nine, Right. Nine years old. I used to have Eddie's concert live. I used to have to run my parents to get home. I used to have to run upstairs to hide, too, that I wasn't watching it. Right. Because they were they'd get home. I was nine. Yeah. But at a certain point I say to my mom, Hey,

you need to let me watch Night Live. It's important. I remember being nine and going, What are you talking about? It's important. I can't. It's not even like it's. I'm so saintly. It's just like. It's stupid. It's just like. It's illogical. It's illogical. It's like. you and I immediately, like, I was like, I think I know what you're like. I don't care about. I don't care about your anything. It's like, I know what you're like.

You're fucking you're a very. opinionated person. Like, okay, I'll see you at the next argument. I like. There's no. So it's just it's not I don't know. I just. never really bought that into it in terms of, like a social construction. You, I don't even if. you just want to, like, this is the person. Yeah. I don't know. It's also just access one like that. Most of sexism, racism, it's just all these. separations that we deal with. It's like if.

If what? What I, if I was. In your experience, what, what conclusions would I come to. if I was in yours? What conclusion I come to, if it's like I under, it's assuming that people. are coming to conclusions. for a lot. the same logic that I come to conclusions. and not. if I were black, I'd be. I'm mad as a white person, so imagine what I'd be like. And if I was a white. man, I'd be so fucking rich. you're kidding, right? I mean, like I say to my husband. all the time, man. Yeah.

If they made me look. like one of your friends and. Yeah, so, like, I don't. I'm sensing a movie here. Yeah, but he wanted to be a black man. Someone wanted to be a white man, so. And drive. one of these white men on our podcast. Yeah. So I don't, I think it's just theory of mind. It's like, what would it. I don't know. if I just assuming. that someone's going to think. the same things you would think, but if you were in that situation.

So you see I come back to what I was saying now. about sharing space with people. I listen to your story and just listening. to what you said because of your brother, you went to a place. where all of his coworkers. were black at Wrigley Field. You're now associating and seeing black people. in their fullness, in their completeness. It is a lot harder to be racist. to black people when you know black persons, it's a lot harder. because you're like, No, I know, I know Dave and I know Steve. and I know Daquan and I know like, I know,

I know people. I know someone like this. I know someone that like this. You know, you get them saying, yeah, you then go. you Now you're also in comedy, then you're in Chappelle's Show again. Now you're experiencing black people. from all different walks of life. You everyone from most definitely, I think. And I also think it's good. personal experiences, meaning like Dave was we. I don't know, we just got along. We were like, close. We were like, in. this exact at the same age, 18, 19. He was nice. He we wrote, he gave me an opportunity. to write happy with him.

A lot of this is like. I feel it is like recompense. for the opportunity that I've been given by. Dave specifically. And. and then I give I take, I. give like black people all credit for that. A bunch of meaning like, okay, I'll try to hire. as many black people as they can. because I can't because my person hired me. Yeah, I kind of have to I morally I have to. if I believe in. any sort of moral framework, I have to try to not be that racist.

When you when you became. more spiritual, I'd love to know, like you. and I, many years ago on The Daily Show, we talked about depression. and how it affects people differently. And this is before I knew I had ADHD, and then I was like, mine is not like depression. is just a byproduct of ADHD at times. I want to know from you. What do you think. some of the biggest blocks, what you. figuring it out?

You know, in one special. you're joking about. wearing a device on your arm. that electrocute you. to remind you to smile and to more affable. Yeah. This is a real thing. Yes. And then it zaps me and I smile. Yeah, that's the cover art on Netflix. Is me fake smiling because you've been. being zapped. Yeah, but then now you smile more as a person. You just generally. Yeah. What do you what do you think was the. And it's not the. Let's start with the thing that you did. but tell me what you discovered.

that shifted you out from under the cloud. It's the I mean it's, it's, it's. very danger Ayahuasca, five amino DMT. and then MDMA. It's I. wouldn't recommend it because it's like it. the five amino DMT. I like kind of lost. my mind for a couple days. but I those in, in. sequentially, that's how I did them. That's and they worked for me. Did you do under guidance or just. No, I mean,

I mean yeah there's like a person there. but like they don't, they don't, they're not, there's like there, there are tribes. I mean Amazon. who who have a lot. of experience. and hundreds. and thousands of years of sort of. how to deal with certain things. And then there's people that I dealt with that. they they mean well no, no, I'm curious, right. Because any time I see your working, I've never seen you like in a. because you don't want to hang out. with black women obviously.

So like, I'm going to see you socially. So, so like. now I'm curious, what. does your depression look like? Because like, you know, there's always this. image of like in bed, I can't work. I, I don't know. I was never I was always trying to. I tried to work my way out of it. Okay. So that's why. you always work my way out of it, okay? Yeah. Like, if I could get an achievement, which I think we've talked about before, it's like, Yeah, you get an achievement. You get a kind of a adrenaline. spike that you take for good feeling,

or you get an ego boost, which you take for good feeling. And then you kind of just like. and then it wears off. like I got to do something else. Okay. And that's what they call a career. Okay. So but yeah, the, the, so I did all that stuff it more it's, it's more. a matter of changing my relationship to. the facts of my life. Meaning I'm incredibly lucky.

I used to think I was unlucky. Yeah, you did crazy. I really thought I was unlucky. I really thought I was like a. like reason for grievance. And. And then I realized, like, no, now I have a new idea, which is, like, life isn't fair. No one's life should be as good as mine. Like, I was dead wrong about what I thought. was happening. Even the things that I. thought were negative were positive.

And it is like everything. was your friend. It's all been good and it's all. been to my favor. Even if it's in the. I sent you that thing the other day about. it's a Buddhist story about like, yeah, you never know. You never know what. Something means. Chappelle's Show ends. I mean, I never would be a comedian. if it didn't end. Like, all these things that I think. were negative, positive, just in a different time frame. So.

that's the biggest takeaway is that like. changing my relationship. to the facts of my life? And I do a thing. where I literally. write the facts of my life down. several times a day. wow. Like journal. Yeah, but I call it checklist. to make it masculine, but I call it. like a checklist of like the facts of my life. Like you are this you or this or this or this. You've got to do this. You got to do the like.

This is incredible. Yeah. Just enjoy yourself. Yeah, I, I think that's a good, good advice. for anything. It's like I can stay mad all the time. in this situation, or I can take this. as an opportunity for whatever, you know. And so for me, it goes back to what. we were saying about a fence. It lives in the same world. I think in everything I'm hearing you,

the facts didn't change. You know, your house, your car, your life, your job, your friends, your your, your opportunities. That didn't change. your relation to them, change your relationship to them changed. And that's what I think about, funny. enough with genuinely how we see the world. a lot of the time, whether it's, you know, things online that offend. us, people that make us angry stories. a lot of the time it's just it's just. your relationship to it is is acknowledging. the fact is it has happened or. You're seeing it. Yeah but now.

what is my relationship to it. and just shifting. that lets. you off the hook from feeling. like you're wearing a weighted vest. That's what I hear you say. So hot, though. it's incredibly graphic now, but. But even like being a mom, I'm. sure it's like, really tries your patience. Yeah. Yeah. And you could occupy that space of. just being aggravated all the time, which I think. a lot of parents did for a long time. Or you can just be like it's, it's, it's, it's. I, I'm going to feel this way.

and I have to figure out how to deal with it. Yeah, I mean, I just, like, surrender. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Then my girlfriend says that all I'm like, because then thing in the world, it's just like a heat. I have a four year old. They're going to be four. Yeah. Until he's five. And then then they're going to be fine. He's going to be fine. Yeah. So yeah, he did his own and use like the surrender. and the acceptance of like this is what it is. I can either look at it and be have fist. balled up all the time or I can just be like,

okay, this is got I'm here, I'm here. I might as well enjoy it. Which is the corniest straightest. Which is scary. No, I know, but I like to drive. I love I. But I think life is a balance between the two. I think I think if we live. only in the moments we neglect. Yeah. People that live in the moment are, it should be noted, are incredibly boring. Yeah. You speak. I think you should. Honestly, I think it's about finding a balance. It's it's and it's with two ideas. it's impossible.

because it's like how you look at it, how you choose to relate to it, how you move through. And sometimes you're not choosing it actively, but that's, but that's how I. Yeah, so that's how I understand there's. a bunch of stuff was falling on me. and then I just tried. to make it fall on me in a different way. Yeah, Yeah. In that like, yeah, I'm and, and I'm incredibly lucky. I would argue most people hearing. this are incredibly lucky in that like, you probably have enough money. and all the think. the infrastructure. that is in place for you to have Spotify.

has Spotify or any way you get your podcast or. fantastic. You know Neal this was. every time I speak to you it's a joy, but. this was this was extra special. Thank you for thanks for joining us. Witcher If someone has to watch. one of your specials now which one and say, Watch crazy, get crazy the most recent one. Yeah. All right. It's kind of most timely joke. Well, for me, I think of it like. Like Star Wars. Go watch the trilogy.

Yes. If you watch three mikes. and you watch blocks. and then you watch Crazy Good, you will know this Neal Brennan. and you will see the four. Yeah, you will see it no different in my. Yeah, because the last time. I saw you was before Trevor quit the show. Three years. I haven't met this now and it's good. Goodbye. Well, you know, you got that dad energy in a good way. I can tell he's with a boy. You're not always with him. cause you're like, being with a four year. old kind of does something to you. and you're like, I just fight with him. Yeah, You know, I. Yeah, I fight.

I fight. Children. We'll save that for another episode. Neal, thank you so much for having me. By. What Now with Trevor Noah. is produced by Spotify Studios. in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor. Noah, Seema Yasmin and Jody AV. Again, our senior producer is just Hackel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music. Mixing and Mastering by Hannah Brown.

Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode. of What Now. will.