Have We Missed The Message? with Ta-Nehisi Coates | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

When I was growing up, even from from good times. all the way to Fresh Prince, I was seen as a different type. of of blackness. where it wasn't its full complexity. and was like, we've got to get to that. And then the music filters to us. and the style filters are the vibe filter. you get. I'm saying I do. And because it is novel and because it seems. to be completely like, you know, devoid of all conflict and. and struggle in a weird way. We are we aspire to it. And then I would. I came to America, and then I met black Americans. who were all like, man, I can't wait to get to Africa, man.

I can't wait. Like, man, I got to, man. And I was like, Wait, what? I think we. My cousins were trying to sound like. Tupac, right? And all. I mean, my cousins were. And I was like, Wait, we're trying to. come here and you're trying to come here. This is. Ta-Nehisi. Coates is not just one of the sharpest. and most beautiful writers working today. Every time he put something out, it seems to shake the world. The case for Reparations. Between the world and me. His work on Black Panther.

and his new book, The Message is no different. because in it he travels to South. Carolina to tackle book banning. He goes to Senegal to rediscover roots. that he's not sure he has. And then. he delves into one of the most. difficult subjects in the world today, Israel Palestine. Most people know his work, but very few people know the man. behind the words. And so this week I sat down with him. and my good friend Christiana. to get into the conversations. that he doesn't always get to have.

and try and figure out. how and why he sees the world the way he does. This is what now. with Trevor Noah. to Yemen. Ta-Nehisi, welcome. Thanks for having me. We're going to do the whole show. because we can I can keep going. We can keep going. Actually, that's the. First thing I do want to ask you is like,

do you ever feel like. do you ever miss being treated like. a normal human being? Because so many people, I think, see you as only an. intellectual body. Yes. That I don't know how. many people just like, shoot the shit with you perform. Fortunately, I have family. and friends who really don't care. They just don't care. You know, I've been thinking. about this a lot this week. It's very, very important. Like I'm a writer, and so that gives me a kind of status, right? But I am rarely the smartest person in. any room. I'm not the funniest, not the best looking.

I'm not the best, most athletic. And so that's good. It's good to be reminded, you know, I mean, at the thing out here, this is the abnormal thing, you know? And then there's life. Do you pop into that abnormal thing? And then you live mostly life. I try to stay as far away. from that abnormal thing as I can. It's very deceptive. and I think it can damage people. So what's this like having going fully back. into the abnormal thing, promoting a book. You know, is dangerous. in a very particular way?

Like, I think like. this sort of thing is always dangerous, but it's dangerous. in a particular way. because you actually are speaking. on behalf of another group of people. it's not really your story. for a lot of it. And so you're trying to take extra care with it. while at the same time still being you. For sure. Frankly, I don't know how. long this can go on for. What what do you mean by that? I just you know, that there are. and we've experiences as black people, like watching. maybe white people. who end up in spaces that we cannot be.

and advocate for us. And it's. like I don't. this there's this great danger. in being that person, You know what I mean? And there are people who I mean, this is like where my darkest thoughts go. The people who profit off of those positions. Yeah. I mean, yeah, Like, you know, I have to say what I. What I really, really need to say. And I really it's. very important that I get out the way, you know, like, it's really, really important. that I, you know, go on in x, you know. That's an interesting thought because you. I think everyone has a different.

example of it in their heads. But I know for a fact. I've seen people who, you know, it's. seldom writers. I think more people on social media. where they sort of traffic. in the pain and suffering of others. at first that. bringing awareness to it that right. And then at some point you like, is this your. is this how you make your money? Now that's that's what I'm talking, right. The only. Thing is when I'm talking, they're. Almost like ambulance chaser lawyers. where you go, I don't know if you actually care. that people got hurt at work. Yes. I feel like this is how you make your money. The things. That's so.

You're concerned about, like people. conflating somehow, the things you're discussing. with the project you're making and saying. you're the spokesperson now. Yes, yes, yes. But I would say even more deeply, like my intention. My intention is to make room. within the frame for people. who have been pushed out of it, that. that is my intention. So it's not even like a. it is a concern about perception, but there's a deeper concern about purpose. Yeah. I think like one of the questions. I often I've gotten over the past few days.

Are you worried about the pushback? Are you worried about the blowback? Not really. I mean, I kind of knew what that was and I knew. what was going on, what, you know, what was going to happen going into it. But, you know, once the attention started, I think the thing I immediately began. worrying about. was becoming the guy and not clearing. space for people who really, truly, truly, truly know. I can really, really speak. in a way that I actually cannot. It's difficult, though. I you know, so I remember. when I started on The Daily Show. and like Christiane has been with me.

almost like. from the beginning, because when. did you come in two. Thousand and seven. I love that. You know the day. Yes, I love the other day. Yeah. Yeah, It was early. So I've been that. that means I've. been only four years I've been hosting. Right. I've been there two years. But you're hosting. and I remember exactly what you're saying. I was What I always loved on The Daily Show. was that I had. a platform. and an opportunity, and I always saw it. as like a not an obligation, but like a like an opportunity. I was like, this is cool. We get to talk about these ideas, and. I was always the person, like, filling in gaps.

I mean, she's like, Trevor, have you heard the story? And I think there's a way. we could look at this and, and to give credit to the building, there were many people who did that. It was like a brain trust. that like sort of, you know, and I was the sponge. and the filter who goes, I don't know. if that works, I don't if this works, etc.. But to your point, it's like we would let's say we would. talk about a shooting that takes place. and then we talk about another shooting. But then very quickly people would be like, hey, there's more shootings. and there's more shootings. and you've got to talk about. And then. it's it's it's weird because on the one hand,

you want to be the person. who gives voice to a topic. But on the other hand, you don't want it to be your thing. That's right. Because in a strange way, you can either. lose yourself. or you can make people feel like it's. you trying to make it your right thing. Right, right, right. And you cheapen. maybe the thing that you're trying. to actually bring attention to, you know? So, you know, I've. and I've been actually thinking about and. just in a conversation with someone about this.

earlier today, about like what I can do. structurally that is not visible, that is not, you know, public, you know, to to advance that. A it's it's so interesting. I love the book, by the way. thank you. I was really great if you said. you hated it. Well, what a joy. I've been through that. You know. I didn't. I didn't think maybe this is my politics. It wasn't that radical. I was like, this is not the man. It's not like this is definitely reasonable. That's how I read it. Right? But the thing I was most. profoundly moved by was your reflections.

on childhood. Yeah, because I'm raising. children now. and I often think about. how my son is experiencing his child. and how my daughter is experiencing. her childhood. I mean, you spoke about being a restless child. and the the confines of the classroom. Yes. And, you know, reading. kind of being this retreat from you, it being passed down by your parents. And it was like. you spoke. about the portray your father made. that you're carrying with you. And I was like, to me, it was like a reflection. on beautiful parenting in a way, but also a child that probably wasn't.

that happy a lot of the time. And I was just. I was to me, it was a remarkable. that this child that was so restless. that would cry about a story about that. while. You really read the book and. you. Is the same child that ends up in the car. And it is. Yeah, just being like, they see me as mixed. And it's now in South. Carolina dealing with this teach. To me it was just like, you know, you, you call your books, your children. But it was it was so much about. you was very personal and introspective.

And I still feel a lot of that is being missed. in place of the final chapter. Yeah. And the way what you experienced. in Israel and Palestine, you know. So I knew that was going to happen to okay. And I was okay with that. One of the cool. things about books is like they sit there. and so people will come back. and they'll see that over time. And in terms of just getting to the more. personal aspects of stuff, I always saw my, my, my writing students, like your readers, could be doing anything else. You know, they could be watching TV.

They could be on a smartphone. You play video games, you really have to justify their time. But you really. And so, like, I am always. like trying to sacrifice and bleed on the page. You know, I really need you to feel like. my work is worth your time. Yeah. You know, it's. I'm trying to give everything I can. Yeah. You know, when I'm writing. Let me ask you a question about, you know, like, on a human level, I honestly have to ask you this. because I very seldom. get angry on people's behalf. Some.

But we haven't been able. to stop talking about the CBS interview. Wow. We like and I mean, when I say. we, I don't just mean the people. who make this podcast. Yeah, I mean, like my friends. Yeah. People online people. Yeah. And I'm. Totally off. Are you really? Let me tell you so. you off. no. You are not happy about that. I mean. I'm obviously hearing this from other people. Let me fool you and let me fool you. I don't think you understand. the shock wave that interview created, not because of what you. said, but because of the way.

people felt like you were treated. Just just. the opening salvo of that conversation. And I'll never forget. the question that you get asked. where I think it's Tony who says to you. When I read the book, I imagine if I took. your name out of it, took away the awards. and the acclaim, took the cover of the. book, the publishing house goes away, the content. of that section. would not be out of. place in the backpack of an extremist. You know, I sat there. I don't get flabbergasted by much. I genuinely don't.

I sat down. I was like, what? My first thought is, yes, but if you remove. every context from everything, then everything could go anywhere. You know what I mean? If you remove America's. history and America's Jewish Americans, then it's like, Yeah, those people who fought. against the Brits, they were terrorists. Yeah. Right. You know what I mean? You can call it like, Yeah, the Boston Tea Party. That's terrorism. Yeah. If you remove the context, everything has no context. And I. I'd like to know from you what, like, maybe, like why you think.

people do that? Why do they remove all context. when speaking about Israel-Palestine? I am. I'm trying to process why. I wasn't so assaulted. I think it's a couple of things. I think. like I love all of those awards and accolades, but they're not really me. So okay, you take them away. It's fine. You know what I mean? I'm still me. I think also I have been in this. in terms of the research and writing, you know, from, you know, over a year now. And I guess, again, I don't know,

I keep saying this. how much the extent to which Palestinians. have been pushed out of their frame, understanding how much of this. was a third rail I really like. I knew this was coming. Okay. Yeah. Even though like, you know, right to exist, like I knew like the states rights too. Like I was like, you've been. you know, like shadowboxing. and waiting for a fight. and you see somebody. throw the left that you've seen. your sparring partner throw like a. thousand times by that. And I figured at some point. it was going to be a fight. You know, I didn't know. was going to be right then, but I figured at some point. it was going to be a fight.

I want to say something. that actually is really important. The thing that. went wrong in that interview. more than anything, as far as I'm concerned, is Gayle King is a great journalist, is a great interviewer. And. Gayle came behind the stage. before we went and she had. gone through the book. And I'm not saying she, like. agreed with the book. She was like, I want to ask you about this and what. actually about that. And it was like Gayle. Was considered, My. Husband, Gayle King is it's considered, but she didn't speak. It was her handwritten notes, her handwritten notes, whatever.

You know what I mean? She had all these things. And I think. while on the one hand, he probably did. me a service, you know what I mean by just kind of. commandeering that interview? I don't think he did. Nate and Gayle a service, and I'm really, really sorry for them. I more than anything, I can take care of myself. You know? I'm good. I'm good. I like I said, I've been hearing. these arguments. I've been rehearsing, I've been. So, you know, if this is what you want. to do, I'm okay doing it like I'm good. I was okay. I left sugar saying I'm okay.

Don't don't cry for me. I'm sure. you know that that that interview. will sell a lot of books, because the fact of the matter is that reaction. is actually endemic of what I what. I'm actually writing. Yeah, it is. There is no way in the world. you can imagine a journalist. who took the other side of that coming on here. and somebody saying, if we took away the cover, we took away. It was we took. I feel like I would find. this in the backpack of a settler.

Colonialism. Yeah. You can't even imagine that. Yeah, that framing just doesn't exist. It's like ten steps. That need to. Happen before. And they aren't there. They aren't even there, you know what I mean? And so. I think to your points, I'm. taking a lot of time to answer your question. I know this is why we here. This is a long time ago. 20 seconds. Yeah. Right, right, right. That's the whole point of a book. We don't have 20 seconds. But but to your point, removing the context, I think, is actually essential. You know what I mean? Because if you start asking why,

then you really, really start. to get into trouble. I mean, one of the. things I've really tried to maintain, both personally and in, you know, my public presentation. is obviously my great horror. at maybe not obviously, but my great horror at October 7th. Right. The fact that I don't say that perfunctorily, but I say it because at the core of. my politics is human life. Yeah. And human life really, really matters to me. And thus, by that same token, if human life matters on October 7th, it shouldn't matter in on October 6th. and October 5th to an understanding that.

that it didn't. When I went over to travel. to the West Bank and to Israel. and I was up and down the country, I went to. Jesus from Haifa, Jerusalem, the south, Hebron Hills, Hebron itself. lead Tel Aviv. What they told me was Gaza's worse. And I know you've seen some stuff. and you and your men. say Gaza, and this is obviously. before October, is it Gaza is worse. Wow. And I was trying to get there. But there's, you know, all sorts of things. in terms of press access and yeah,

that I couldn't. And so I just think. like, is there room in the world? And I don't think there is right now. I actually don't think there. Is to. Have genuine, genuine horror. at what happened on October seven. to feel like there. really isn't a world in which. or reason that I can apprehend. I'm not Palestinian. I'm Ta-Nahisi quotes that I can apprehend. for justifying anything like that, and yet understanding at the same time.

that things have histories, that they happen in the course of events. The example I think about. all the time is like Nat Turner, right? Like Nat Turner launches his rebellion in 1830. This may slide as babies in their cribs. You know what I mean? Like, and I've done this thought experience. experiment for myself over and over. Does the degradation and dehumanization. of slavery make it so that you can look past. something like that?

And I try to imagine. and I think. I can accurately imagine as much as possible. that there were enslaved people, no matter how dehumanized. That said, this, this is too far. Yeah, yeah. I can't do that. Now, here's the flip side of it. And I haven't said this out loud, but I think about it a lot. where I, 20 years old, born into Gaza, which is a giant open air jail. And what I mean by. that is if my father is a fisherman.

and he goes too far. out into the sea, he might be shot. Yeah. By somebody off, you know, a side of Israeli boats. If my mother picks the olive trees. and she gets too close. to the wall, she might be shot. If my little sister has cancer. and she needs treatment. because there are. no facilities to do that in Gaza. and I don't get the right permit. She might die. and I grow up under that oppression. and that poverty and a wall comes down. and my also strong enough.

or even constructive in such a way. where I say this is too far, I don't know that I am. You know, I don't I don't. I don't I don't I don't know that I am, you know, and I just some. I just wish we had room. to work through that, you know what I mean? And to think about that. and to talk about that. and I think that is not unique to Israel. That is not unique to Palestine, that is not unique to Zionism. That is human history. That's human. beings. I always tell people,

you know, like they think. if they lived in the time. of slavery that they would. not have been enslavers. No, you would have. Yeah. You would have because it's a system. Yeah. And most human beings, you know we exist. Yeah. We exist within context. Yeah, we do within context. And without that, you know what I mean. This idea. that there can be some triumph, that heroic individual who's going to go above. and beyond that is that's not a real thing. That's not history. We're going to continue this conversation.

right after this short break. And I think about, you know, sometimes the best way. for me to process a story. that's happening now is to take a story. that isn't happening now because. I have a little room, I have a little context. But I remember. having a conversation with President Obama. when he was still in office, you know, and we were talking about this like. it was in an interview and we're chatting. And I've asked, you know, state.

officials the same question. As I say, I'm always intrigued. by the notion. of like a strike, as they call it, and the collateral damage. And I always go, do you ever wonder. what collateral damage causes. not and I'm not saying to justify, but do you ever wonder what it causes? So one of the stories. that always stuck out to me was. there was a strike that was conducted. and they were they were getting. I think it was one of the heads of ISIS. He was in the back of a taxi. And if you remember, like and they shot down. a missile, got the taxi, he was dead. And they were they were all happy about it.

And I remember with The Daily Show. talking about this. and I said, wait, what did they kill? They said, Yeah, we got him clean strike gun. I said, What about the taxi driver? Yeah. And they were like, yeah, well, the taxi is gone. I said, Well, what about the taxi driver? And they're like, But this is an ISIS terrorists. And I said, Okay, maybe it's because I come from. a quote unquote third world country. being a taxi driver. Even in America, by the way, even in a first war, is like those people. are responsible for so many lives.

Being a taxi driver is not a passion job. It's not a career that you aspire to. It's like this is what I'm. doing to make ends meet. And I go, When you've. taken out a taxi driver, how many lives. have you taken out around him? And I know you celebrating. that you've killed this person, but who might you have radicalized? Yeah, Yeah. Who might you have? You know, and it's it's, it's. I that's that's I think one of the reasons. I love your writing so much is because. it challenges us to continuously approach.

the most difficult topics with the nuance. that anger and violence oftentimes don't get. You know, and to go back funny enough to that. first question you ask on CBC, I hadn't read the book right. when that when that happened, but I was now ready for this chapter was like, man, I. you know, I read through the book and I'm like, okay, And I'm reading about. you loving American football. In the beginning, I'm like, All this is. but in the back of my mind now, it's like, you know, you've watched a movie trailer. and they've only shown you one part. and you're like, right here. I mean, I know it starts out right. With the explosion coming and I'm. Reading these sweet stories. and I'm picturing you crying.

because of a football player's like, lost. It's paraplegic and you're crying. and you're having this journey. And I'm reading about. you in Baltimore and your father. and you learning about reading and loving. and writing and talking to your students. But in the back of my. head, I'm going, Get ready. Trevor Right. There's a chapter in this book. that is going to make you think about. Tennessee differently. I'm like, What is this extremist thing? And what nobody mentions in that interview, you spend the first, I want to say like ten ish pages. Yeah. Speaking about the Jewish history,

you spend. the first ten pages. talking about the Holocaust, you spend the first pages talking. about going through the memorial. You talk about the names. There's a book of names. that that shows. you all the millions. of people who died in the Holocaust. You talk about the most painful stories. You know, those. those soldiers killing 2000 Jewish people, not because the war was still happening, but because they just. didn't want them to be free. And they knew. the Russians were approaching. and they were going to free them. And I didn't know some of these, like individual moments.

And I was like, Damn, this is hard. Damn, this is painful too. But all I kept thinking was like, wait, this is not in the backpack of an extreme. This is like, it's probably not. No, but that's what I mean. It's like, you know, and. maybe, maybe this was, you know, it's a long way of me getting to the question. And that is like, why would you start telling the story. of the Palestinian people, that chapter? Why would you start that story. with the history of the Jewish people? It's actually not about the Palestinian people. And you know,

I have to be pretty open about that. It takes a particular perspective, definitely. But if you notice, there's like symmetry. always that deliberately called out. between that Senegal. chapter and Israel chapter. Yeah, I felt that Yeah. And it's because in-car I'm confronting stories. imagine ideas. that play a role in the politics. and then having to deal with Africa as a, as an actual place. Yeah. You know what I mean? With people.

Yeah, we will. Yeah. Don't celebrate Kwanzaa. I. have to deal with that, you know. And, and, you know, frankly, I still haven't. quite figured it all out yet, but. But the mess of that and then, you know, like working through that. Right. You know, made it. something to have an African name. that nobody in Africa has. That's what I. Have. wow. African nation. And nobody in Africa has. Right. And so you're kind of. like working through that. And I actually think that's okay.

You know, I actually think that's fine. But like trying to work through that. and then here I am in this place where. some of the. I would say nationalist impulse. that I grew up around and grew up under. has been taken to like the F degree, like it's actually been operationalized. You know, it's not, you know, just people. without power. trying to, you know, create stories. and trying to preserve themselves. and trying to arm themselves. against an oppression. It has become an actual state. And I knew I was going to write about that. But.

you see, this doesn't work. If you can't see yourself in Israel. and in Zionism, if you can't. if you think it is just evil people over here. doing an evil thing, then you've missed it. Yeah, you know what I mean? You've missed it. This started somewhere. You know what I mean? It started somewhere. And I have to be honest, and I said this in the piece. once I started reading like the documents. around Zionism, it was like on one level, I was like, this is so clearly colonialism.

Like, I recognize a colonialist discourse. Well, first of all, they use the word colonized, but also, you know, depicting the people over there. in a certain way either as they don't exist. or what a savage one or the other. But the other part was. I recognized the yearning. Like I recognize. You know, Moses has talking about. being a member. of a degraded people at one place. He says, you know, your your. your nose and your hair won't. be made to disappear. You can pretend you're German. He's saying this before the Holocaust.

You know what I mean? You can't hide your Jewishness. You should be proud of it. And all I can hear is like Malcolm X, right? Yeah. So I'm, like, recognizing it. Like, I can feel the parallels. The parallels? Yeah. And the fraternity for it and the sympathy. Like. Like I understand it, But then you see where it goes, right? You see where it goes and how. a people who have been. Just repeatedly. Degraded over centuries, massacred, killed, chased. and ethnically cleansed themselves I of Spain,

you know, can go somewhere. and perpetrate and create. a system of just dire inhumanity. Dire. And I say this, I haven't seen it, you know, against other people. That was a challenge for me. as a black person, actually. You know what I mean? Like, as much as I was like, concerned about Zionism and what it. what it did, because. I started thinking, and this is imaginative and speculative,

but this is, I think what writers. are supposed to do. What will we be if we had power? What would we do? You know? And then there's. this discourse around Liberia. where African-Americans. had this whole thing about, we don't go back to Africa. and we're going to. civilize our brethren, right? Yeah, we're going to sit we're going. to Christianize and civilize them. And you see, my God, like we could be seduced into the same thing. Yeah. You know, and that's why I'm very. strong on this point. This is not a Jewish era.

It's not a Zionist era, you know? I mean, this is a human, a deeply, deeply human temptation that is wrong, but human, human nonetheless. I find in the book. what I found was interesting. I feel you implicate yourself. You talk about I see American. imperialism, I see, you know, evangelical Christianity. And as in a bear. of an American passport, you can go through. certain checkpoints at that part. I am enmeshed with that, whether I like it or not. Yeah.

So you like calling yourself out. as an American in a way that I don't think. people are necessarily acknowledging. You're not saying. this is the big bad Israel. You're saying this is us. It's actually us. And and that's the key difference. And people will tell. you, they said, well, well, what about, you know, Sudan? What about China? What about, you know, they'll name all the places. where horrible things are happening. What about Saudi? And they're not wrong, You know, not wrong, but this is our horrible thing. That is the key. That is actually the key difference. You know, every single fighter plane,

it drops a bomb on Gaza came from America. Every single one. Every single one. You know, I was I got that from. there's a report by this guy, Josh Paul. and this great. Palestinian American law professor, Nora advocate, that they wrote together. Josh Paul used to be in the State Department. and he worked in the area. that oversaw the sale of weapons. to other countries until he was just like, I can't do this anymore. And he sent me, you know, a couple of weeks ago, like the report,

the day that he and Nora had done. just outlining the human. rights violations that that had come over. over the past year or so. And I saw that line about. and this was after and I was like, my God, this is really all us, you know? I mean, you just get. more and more evidence and I'll tell you. even more so because. we walk around the world. We go around the world, maybe not well, we go around the world. saying we are the font of democracy. See, we advanced ourselves. through the fight against enslavement. We advanced ourselves. to fight against segregation.

We advanced ourselves. You know what I mean? Martin Luther King is our patron saint, but we are supporting segregation right now. Right now. That's the one thing about that. CBS interview, right? Like when I say segregation apply. to not once did somebody say, no, that's not true. Yeah. He kept on saying, And why is that Right? Right. Why not? That's not true. You know, he said, And why is. There not a meaning? What is that which. Every single perpetrator. of segregation and Jim Crow says. I'm so excited about apartheid. Yeah. Know, there's all sorts of good reasons for me.

Well, for me, that's the that's. the parallel is like, you know, I've had this conversation. sometimes argument. with some of my friends, you know, some Israeli born, some just of Jewish descent. And we'll and we'll talk about this. And, you know, one thing I wish people knew more. of is how broad the spectrum is. For instance, just to what you said. now, we had on, you know, one of the other podcast episodes, we had the author of Sapiens. and Nexus, Yuval Noah Harari on this, and he's like, he said, I'm a Zionist. And he said, But this is what. my definition of Zionism is.

It is me believing. that Jewish people have. a right to exist. in a state where they do not. have to run away because of their nose. And they had and I'm paraphrasing that part, but essentially that's what he said. Right. And then he went on to say, Israel's. committing crimes in Gaza. and he said. the West Bank is even. more indefensible because it's not. even a boogieman Hamas to blame it on. And he said that students. should be protesting against the U.S. because in your words, funny enough, he said it is America's. participation in that specific thing. And when I think. about apartheid, like I'll talk to my friends.

and I'll be honest, I think this is what it is, you know, and I think we all guilty. of it at different times. None of us wishes to be labeled something that. we can never get out from under rights. Nobody wants to be called a racist. because this is now a stain. that they wear forever. And there's no coming out from under it, you know? And so if that's why people are so, in. my opinion, people are so afraid of saying,

yeah, that was racist. What I said was racist. What I did. Because they're like, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I know where this goes. I know, I know. And I've noticed the same thing. And during apartheid, the architects of. apartheid were like, No, no, no, this is not no, no, no, I'm not racist. Like, no, we we do this for the for the Bantu. And they said, you must understand the black cannot. govern themselves. The black does not have the capability. to understand. governance and we are. protecting them and we must keep and. and then when I talk to my friends.

in and around Israel-Palestine, I'd say to them they go like, how can you call it? How can anyone call apartheid? And they'll say, okay, let's do it this way. You tell me what's different. I'm just going to tell you. what apartheid was, Right. Right, right. I'm just going to tell you what it was. And I would like you to tell me. where you see a discrepancy. Right? And I go, okay, so in apartheid, your ethnicity determined. what your life could be, where you could go, what job you could get, how long you could stay in the major. part of the town with a power was held, you know, where you could move or not move. That's what apartheid did. Then they're like, okay, it's like that.

But now I'm like, No, don't give me reasons. Let's forget reasons for a moment. Let's just talk about. what it was and what it wasn't. And I go. Apartheid also said that you couldn't vote. depending on your ethnicity. Yes, but I go, you're my friend. I'm not indicting you. I just want you to tell me. how it's different to apartheid. Yeah. And oftentimes it's ended up. yes, there's many similarities, but it's because it occurs. And I go, I have yet to find. a thing that happened in our past. that didn't have a because it's. Always like that.

And I don't think folks realize this. That's actually a further indictment. It's actually because you sound. like the thing. you think you're not right. and you don't know the history of the thing. You think you're not well enough. to realize how much you actually sound like it. Yeah. You know, And so when you say, for instance, you know, the Palestinians have. done this, that, you know, suicide bombings, you know, terrorist attacks, etc., that's real.

That's real. And nobody would like deny the pain of that. You know, the problem is the violence of. the oppressed is that's always the reason. That's always the reason, you know. And so, you know, I was on a podcast. with somebody else. and we were discussing this and it's like, I just gave you that Nat Turner example, right? And I say, Well, I think killing babies. in the crib is wrong. Like, I don't think I could do that right. But that doesn't justify slavery. Yeah, Yeah. As soon as they didn't they, you know. Yeah. That's where the Yeah.

Because you're telling me that. Therefore it justifies. No, no, no, no, no, no. And I think like this is like a, a principle thing. that cannot be gotten passed either. You think there are good reasons. for segregation, apartheid, you have go. or you don't. You know what I mean? And in my mind, there is never any reason. You know, like. my dream of liberation is not like enslaving. Why that would be wrong. I oppose enslavement. You know, I use the death. penalty example all the time.

I am opposed to the death. There is no. because for me, for the dead, there is no. you know, he's a serial. killer, killed 30 people. No, I'm against it. I'm against it for Dylann Roof. You're like, I'm against it. There's no because for me, you know, and I think we all have those things. It's just the fact, the bare truth of it is some of us. do not have those things for apartheid. That's just the truth. Some people think. And that is scary for me as a black person, because now I know who I'm talking to. because you would do that to me. if there was a because. You know,

we can't imagine ourselves that way. or we can't imagine ourselves. doing the worst or, you know, it's interesting that we understand that. fundamentally as humans. But then when it comes. to practicing it, our fear takes over. Do you know what I mean? Like, I remember. getting into a passionate argument. with a friend of mine around Israel-Palestine, and he was like, But Trevor, what do you want us to do? And you know that. Hamas is trying to kill us and these. we think these other. countries around us want to kill us. Like what do you want us to do? I was like, Well, I want you.

to not kill babies. I want you to not kill children. And he was like, No, but we don't want you. And we you got to understand. what Israel's kind of like. Yeah, no, no, I'm not saying that. And then I said to him. something that I truly believe, but I don't know, again, because I haven't been fully tested. I don't know that. I would be able to exercise it. And maybe even we are. I said, you know what it is? It's the burden of the good guy. When you watch a movie, watch a James Bond movie. All right. For all his flaws, you watch James Bond.

James Bond is pursuing one of the villains. They've got like a vile that's going to. kill the whole world. Some virus. The bad guy gets to drive through. a crowded market and crushing. everyone who's in it and not give a damn. James Bond has to stop, has to go around people. If a woman is thrown, he has to catch her. If a child falls, he has to stop you. Superman. Man, I want to go off the Zod, but the building is falling, so I have to stop the building. from falling. Because while I'm trying to beat Zod, the building is full of people,

and my mission is to save people. And so I cannot let the people die. in my fight with Zod. Yeah, Just because I'm trying to get Zod. And I do. You know what I mean? I keep going. I'm like, Man. Do. You understand that? On like a. on a on a hypothetical. moral level, when we watch it, right? But when we're tested, very few of us. pass that test to get beyond our fear. The other thing is like the building is filled. with people who are not you. You know what I mean? And so then it's like, you know, how can you have empathy beyond. By yourself? Which I just think,

I don't know, man. Like, one of the things that I was. I thought a lot about there was the Israelis. I spoke to. They spoke in terms of survival. Right. Which is actually and that's. why I started with Yad Vashem, which is I mean, when you have faced, you know, real existential violence, you know, you might. would start. to think of things in those sorts of terms. But equally interesting was like the story. they told about. that survival, not all of them, but one of the more popular versions of it,

which holds. that they went like lambs to the slaughter, like that there was no real resistance. And, you know, and so it's a kind of like. not just. I won't let genocide happen again, but next time I'm, you know, I'm. going to go out, you know, fighting. I don't think that story. is particularly accurate. I only. that version of it that just. it doesn't correspond with how oppressed. people act on the systems, ever, you know, any human being, you know, ever. But I think also beyond that, it's like,

what is life for? You know, like what is. what is what is living for? What is what is like you're trying to survive. for what you know. And if and like you say, you haven't been tested. So I don't I agree. I don't want. to speak for anybody else, but I don't know. if my life depends on daily killing babies. I mean, I might jump off a building myself, right, Because I don't know what my life is. Then like, I don't I don't know. I have a life worth living myself.

Like when I think about. that, when I tried to do that. thought experiment, like I feel like I'm like, somehow lost, like, is it just oxygen? No. But in the book, I think you answer it when you talk about. the parallels between. the dehumanization of black people. and the dehumanization. of Arab and brown people, Yeah. When you no longer. see the humanity in these people, I think you can do anything. Right? Right. But what about, like, your own humanity? Yeah, well, you're. losing your own humanity by the act, which is, I think, the sadness.

And I think that's. What I would I would challenge that. Funny enough, I actually think it's. the first part and it's what you said. I don't think many of the people are. forced to. They're not challenging. We are not our humanity. because we've made it numbers, because we've made it statistics. And you talk about this in the book we go read. If you go read like the articles. and I think. I'm really happy. that Gen Z. has been as on this as they have on like. tick tock on Twitter, on all of it. You now. see with a real clear lens how the media tells. the stories. about what's happening in the Middle East.

They will say, you know, a family killed in Tel Aviv, you know, they'll they'll make it human. And then on other side, they'll go. 60 Palestinians. But Palestinians is not a thing. They are not Humans. do not I mean, a Palestinian is not a. the like when you think of it, if you take that word, you should remove it and just write. humans, children, humans, children. I don't think anyone, to. borrow your words from the book, would be able to grapple. with that constant toll and pain. Yeah. Yeah. Because we'd be like, Whoa, how many humans. and how many children and how many people?

And and I think that's actually what it is. throughout history. Even if we zoom out. from the conflict in the Middle East, what we've been very good. at doing as a species, you know, through a few people who have assumed power. is they've managed. to dehumanize the people that it's happening to. so that we don't have to question our humanity. Yeah. So when the U.S. drones a part of the Middle East. with a wedding or no no it's collateral damage. Insurgents. Yeah. We got the. But collateral damage is not people. Yeah, it's that I'm saying it's enhanced.

Exactly. And that and then I think is actually it's. don't go anywhere because we. got more what now after this. And it's interesting. because when you go to South Carolina, you go to this kind of school board meeting. and where people are defending this. teacher called marry, they're trying to ban your book, basically. And it's interesting to me. that you would say, how can they do that to me as a black person.

or as a really prolific black author? There is this movement to ensure that children. don't read your book. because they don't want the widening of the. their imagination, the aperture. Yeah. So how did it feel. actually living through that? Because it felt that. like you were more burdened. by what you saw in Israel and Palestine, but you were more passionately impacted. by what was. actually happening in South Carolina, kind of like in your backyard? Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. Why was I not more burned by South Carolina?

It probably is. The fact that. this is less of a threat to me than it is. to the students and the parents. And I didn't really feel yeah, like between. the world to me is going to be fine, you know. So I probably felt it less personally. Maybe some of it also. was the fact that it was like, I got to tell you, this was a little weird, right? Because it was. Really. White self-interest that I was observing. And I mean that actually. in the best way, right? Yeah. Because look like like all.

People, you know what I mean? These white. parents down here, they want their kids. to have a first class education. They want them to be able. to go out in the world, in a world. they don't want people. mocking them and laughing at them. And, you know, and to them, it's like. book banning, like I'm going. to have to send my kid out into the world and. like, I come from a disability. ban books like they, you know, obviously have enough. sense to realize. that is not how you raise a world. kid with, you know, expectations Like these were kids.

in AP English class, right? So I'm trying to get credit to get ahead. In the university, you know, and it's like this is like barbaric. You know what I mean? What we're talking about here. So when I say self-interest, I mean. they might have my politics, but they recognize part of a first rate. education is reading different things, taking things from different. like like it was kind of. recognition of that value. It's not We completely. and totally agree with Ta-Nahisi Coates, You know what I mean? It's just.

we want our kids to have a, you know, a relatively high level education, you know, And, you know, as I say in the book, I mean, you mock that. You can laugh at that. But there are not too many freedom struggles. that have been advanced without, you know, some group of people. from the majority seeing that interest. Yeah. You know, you know that, too. So I was fine with it. I want to say. they want something really quickly. And I have to remind myself. to say this all the time as I talk about this. I was talking before about my sympathy, like I was reading the documents. and everything, and I felt,

you know, like the similarity. in reference to that. I get how hard it might be. if you are Jewish and you're trying to. reckon with this stuff. You know what I mean? That was the other reason. why I was kind of written a way. It was, Yeah, because. man, you know, and I have some exposure to this in other ways, but I won't make this about me. I can imagine it is great. It is really, really difficult. to be within a system. I saw with my own eyes, actually, within a system.

that tells you you're noble, that tells you what you're doing is correct. It tells you. you are within the tradition of people. who have been correct within a movement. That is correct. And somebody is telling, you know, you're actually sticking. your foot on people's throat. That's hard to take. Yeah. You know, that's why it doesn't mean. it shouldn't be said, by the way. It should be. No, no, no. But to deconstruct. like the core of your identity that way, because when you do it, what's Well. There are two stories, one less, one. less a story.

But I don't know if you remember when. World Central Kitchen, Jose Andres, you know, I mean, he does an amazing job. He's all over the world. and he just feeds people and it seems like. such a simple mission. But what he does with his organization. is there's a devastation anywhere in the world. from natural disaster, from war, you name it. He gets in there and he gets in there. faster than most, like giant organizations. And he just feeds people. from Haiti to Florida, from Gaza to Syria.

He gets in there, he feeds people. And one of the more tragic stories. that came out of the. Israel-Palestine conflict was, I think it was. seven of the World Central Kitchen people. being killed in a in a strike. And, you know, there's been all these reports. and then the Israeli government said, it was like rogue, sort of like. some soldiers in the ranks. who weren't supposed to be doing something. They went against orders and it's muddled. So I want, you know, put my foot. anywhere in particular, cause. I keep reading new things about it. But what was most interesting for me. was seeing that he got interviewed afterwards.

by he got Ha'aretz. You know, in Israel, they they did like a almost full page. spread on him like an interview. And then he was on I think it's. Channel 12 in in Israel. And I saw multiple people online. when that was happening saying. and it seemed completely honest to me. They said this is the first time. I have seen a story saying anything about. what's happening in Gaza from inside Israel. Yeah.

And I saw multiple people saying that. Yeah, multiple people saying I, I wasn't hearing this. I wasn't seeing this. I wasn't. And in a way, I think, you know, I think of what you talk about in your book. You know, when you when you talk. about the importance of being a storyteller, the responsibility that writers. bear, the obligation that you have. when you're putting words on a page, because I think about how powerful it is. to be able to craft a story. or a narrative for people. You know, one of the key things. I hear from many white.

South Africans, some could be lying. But I think genuinely. when I talk to them, many of the months. they'll tell me straight up. they go, Trevor, I didn't know, think. And I'm like, What do you mean. you didn't know? And they go like Trevor. They go, Nobody knew what was happening. And I'm like, How could you not know. what is happening in apartheid? And they say, Remember, we have the national broadcaster. Yeah, they broadcast what we watched. We weren't getting international stuff. It was banned. You weren't getting music from America. That was anything like Sugarman. and all these songs that, you know, we weren't getting. anything. So. our reality was shaped by the government.

And if your reality is shaped, you almost have to be like Neo to escape. Yeah, you really got to think. Because I always think about that, you know, on that level I go, Forget. who's a good person, who's a bad person. Think about. what kind of person you have to be to say. Everything in my reality makes sense, but I'm going to question it. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And I think about. how many Israelis don't get like. the story on all sides. I think about. how many South Africans didn't. get the story of apartheid. They were just told. Yeah, they were even told.

that black people. loved living there, by the way. They were like, No, this is great. They're loving it. They love how they live. And and then they would. show, look at the violence. or the ANC is trying to disrupt this thing. They're trying to blow everything up. We've created working system. Everyone is happy. And maybe, you know, it's a question. I have to you. then as as a writer is like, how do you. how do you escape that? How do you even begin the journey. of puncturing your reality? Do you know what I mean? You know, I think it's important. Everyone who listens. to this understands. that the book as a whole, it's.

not If you think. it's Israel-Palestine, it's not. That's the most contentious issue. right now. Right. But the. the part of the book. where you're going into Senegal. for me is like you having. to puncture a reality. You having to now see Africans as human beings. who don't just exist as numbers. You know, it's not just the beginning. of a slave trade. Yeah. it's people, right? It actually started back. when I was in college because when I. when I went to Howard, I was in a history department. They were very scholarly.

and it was like. all of this stuff about like they. they came. and kidnaped us and we were kings. They had no tolerance for any of that. And it was extremely disruptive of my concept. of what Africa was and what it meant for me. And I finally, you know, went over myself. And I think, you know, I think by then I had let go of. a lot of stuff, right? And I say I'm still in process. because. even as I was walking down the street, I really do think I was that. the film was still over my eyes. And I'll give you an example.

I would just like repeatedly remark. on the beauty of the Senegalese people. Right? They're very beautiful. I have to say. Okay. But have a question about that. Yeah, I have a question about that. Yeah, let's do it. Is it that now they are are. But is it that. Well, is it. also the fact that I'm speaking. as an African-American maybe here. that you grow up under all of this stuff. telling you you're ugly, you're unattractive, your nose is too. Big, too big hair is like all that. And then you go and you're like. These are stunning people.

These are stunning people. And you see. Them and they're the coolest. people in the world to like this. Smooth And you know what I mean? Style their style. And it's like what? You know what I mean? And so. but I am trying to, I guess, comprehend. how much of that is me. looking at them through this. You know what I mean? Trying to escape. like what I've been told here. And how much of that is the reality of it? You mentioned the ideology. nigger ology. Yes. I couldn't. couldn't get over that even existed. I knew it existed in an abstract. Right. This real way of thinking. Yes.

And you were like, have I been somehow tainted by that? Yeah. I'm surprised by the humanity. That was the worst part. I was like, that's just the way they live. And then. No, it was that was. so I think like, yes, you know what I mean? I obviously did bring it with me. Like, that's just the truth of it. And the fact of the matter is, all of the work I had done. to escape it, you know what I mean? I don't know if you ever get out of it. The second thing was like, I read all of the scholarship. about how door no return is bullshit.

It's not real. Not that many people went through. gory, you know, eight and gory. Ain't that. And I'ma tell you, when that boat pulled off. I lost it. Yeah. Even knowing you still see it? Yes. Even knowing this is B.S. I like empirically. This is not what they said it was. You know what I mean? And so what is it mean that. even after, you know, you deconstruct. all of this stuff that is myth and is. and is not real? Like some of this stuff. still has a hold on you. I mean, I would there.

be, you know, evenings when I would sit. with two of the people. I talk about. in the book, how I would do it. and how Nana And it's like. we have this whole conversation. about who's mixed and who's not and all. that sort of thing. Right. But see, the fact of the matter is, while some people might find out, fine, I can't conversation hurtful, we had to have some kinship. to even joke like that. Yeah you don't. Just say that to people. You know what I mean? Like, you had to have like. there has to be something. No kidding. Right? Right. Yes. That you have that kind of. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Like cousins ribbing each other.

But why are we cousins again? Yeah. Down but it. Was like, well. Maybe. I mean we are I feel. Yeah. Yeah, I feel you. You know what I mean? But what you know. when you mentioned how like, kind of grieved you are by them saying, you know, the women out here, they bleach. and they change their hair because they want to look. like African-Americans. And it seemed that that really sat with you. You're like, okay, now. what has happened here? Yeah, it was so meta that you couldn't really. Because this was at the. Same time as I'm doing.

You so be like, I'm doing that. How would you like us? Like, why would you? And then, you know, the other thing. is, and I don't know. if this is where you're going, I might have cut you off. No, no different. But we look the way we look. because rape is an indelible part. of the experience of enslavement. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, it's. It's not a. Gift. Yes. Systemic sexual assault. Right? Right. That's that's why, you know, it is the way it is. And so and it's a it's a it's. actually a marker, you know, in that way of out of our division, you know what I mean? In a way that we were kind of.

very much like like. as Nikole Hannah-Jones is, you know, like Born on the Water, like that was like, you know what? We were. there was stripped away, taken, and then something out. of what was left of that. And you know what we got here forcibly, you know, became who we are. Yeah. You know, And I mean, that's probably. even tied to that. Why we cousins thing, you know what I mean? Because it's like what are we like What. Like what, What like what? Like what are we. It did. feel like in the car that you experienced. some sort of psychic shift. and I don't want to make it a trophy. because that's the whole thing. So African-American.

Yeah, I've a brought in France. Right, right, right, right, right, right. Which I've done. Yeah. What you guys have done in the j. I wrote some of this book is right. in the James Baldwin's edition. Right, right, right. It's like going to some place in West Africa. and feeling something. And you do mention the ancestors a lot. Which. Which means what? Because you know. Right, right, right. Right, right. You're like, you know, part of. I'm paraphrasing, but part of your writing. and the tradition you're in. is like veneration of the ancestors. speaking to you in three years.

Yes. Yes. But it felt like. with the Israel-Palestine thing, you felt that you had come. to a personal conclusion. based on your morality. and your feeling about the human experience. But you come out of Senegal. kind of still grappling. Yeah, No. And I wonder why. Why is that? Did it not feel like home enough. or did it feel like home? Like what was that confusion? And that was. there was an underlying tension there. that I didn't feel anywhere else. I think is the what do we. I think I never figured out the. what a we I know what the. feeling is, but I can't I couldn't why.

We to each other or. Just what are we to each other. I feel like wicked. Yeah. And I felt like I felt that. but I couldn't put it into words. like I couldn't quite name it, you know? And I guess that's understandable. That was my first trip there. Again, a lot of that was about, you know, grieving and being, you know, African-American and. like, I think about. like I. spent so much time about a war. and I think about like watching. I talk about this in the book, like these little black boys surf.

I don't think I've ever. in my life seen black boys surf. Damn. Until I went to Senegal. It was doing it. It was the most natural thing in the world. But because it is. Because it is. Because it. Is. You know what I mean? And it really struck me. And it's really, really kind of, you know, beautiful way. And I think it. probably will take a few more trips. Yeah. Until I'm like, not amazed by that. You know what I mean? And then I can, you know, figure out like what that can is. and what it means and everything. It's funny, I think of. just the differing experiences you.

what you're sharing now. reminds me of. when Ryan Coogler, the director of Black Panther in Fruitvale. Amazing, amazing director. He was. he was going to South Africa. to do research for Black Panther. Right. And directed you. I just yeah, that's a good friend of mine as well. So I've seen you. yeah, Yeah. So, so, so Ryan reaches out to me, says, Hey, I'm going to South Africa. Can you help me out? I was like, Yeah, I'd love to. So I said, Ryan, let me let me hook. you up with my people. PBS tour guides. Yeah, Not like no, I don't. I just want you to be with people.

That's what he said. He said he was in it. Yeah. And so Ryan goes to South Africa, and I'll never forget one of my best. friends was with them, and they. walking around in Soweto. and Ryan's walking around, and he has. like a my friend described it to me. He's like, he's like, it's over. He's like, I mean, this guy, I mean, he's Egyptian. It's he's edgy. He's like, This guy's edgy. And I'm like, What do you mean? He's like, I'm a he's. Every time. we turn a corner, it's like he expects. something to happen. Yes. He said. And I was like, What do you mean? And and then. And then they tell me. the most beautiful story.

And Ryan Ryan told it to me. and sort of my friend from a. different perspective. But he says. they're walking around, they walk around the walker. And I don't know, this was day one or day two, but Ryan stops and his shoulders relax. and he starts to cry a little bit. and my friend's like, Yo, is everything okay? And Ryan goes, I've never felt this feeling before. I have never seen blackness. expressed in its full. Right. Like range, like,

you know, it's like we're black. isn't defined by something or not. Like, no one's looking at you. because you are black. Might be. because of your sneakers or your T-shirt, but not because. And you're not out, You're not in, you're not, you know, you know, it was a weird it's. a feeling that I can't imagine. Because I can't imagine. because I was lucky enough. to grow up in South Africa in that. In a place of family in Soweto. Yes. I'm like, okay. But when he described that, it was the most poetic thing, What a gift it is. to be able to see yourself. as everything and anything.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I think that's that. when I'm listening to you. and even when you read it in the book, I feel you moving through it. So willing to question out a little bit. Yeah. And the reason why I want to question. that is that's what I thought. And maybe it's still true, but when I just it's told me. about the bleaching and everything. Yeah. So what is like, well, okay. This is my theory, This is my theory. Oftentimes times we, we look to those who. we think have like figured it out.

and have found like. we look to those who inspire us. is the easiest way to put it right. I know this personally. Growing up in South Africa, many of us looked at African Americans. and we were like, yo, that is it's. I mean, I look at the struggle. in South Africa, the Nelson Mandela's the Winnie. Mandela's the, you know, the Oliver. Tambo that if you have the range of humanity. No, no, no. Because what you're seeing is a glimpse. What you're seeing is a moment. Does this make sense? I could be wrong because I'm not a. scholar in this, but I do think in some ways.

it's because. while there is still a struggle, it's. not the same struggle. And so it's sort of it sort of feels freeing in. a different way. And it's sort of it makes me. aspire to you in another way, you know? So, like, I remember. the first few weeks we were in New York. Meet Joe OPIO from Uganda, David. friend of ours, also from Uganda, a South African. We were walking through. the streets of New York. We're coming back from a soccer match. Cops pull us over, mind you, as the host of The Daily Show. At this point, they pulled us over. It was like on. 11th Avenue and maybe just into the teens now.

couples us over carrying our sports. We dressed in our sports gear, Hey, where you guys coming from? And we're like, we're coming from soccer game. And he's like, Where are you going? We're not. We're going home. We live uptown. He's like, You walking like, Yeah, we walking. He's like, It's midnight. Like, yeah, I mean, the game ends at midnight. So you guys are playing soccer now? We're like, Yeah, It's like, Do you mind if I search your bags? No, go ahead. And he stretches and we're standing there, you know, like against the car. And he's such an icon. Explain this to you.

We could not have been more relaxed. Wow. And this all happened. and then we were done and we're like, Have a good night, officer. And then we carried on and, you know, join me. And now we kind of talk about the game. Joe was like, No, Trevor, you have to pass the ball in. The middle. Of the thing. And then I paused. as I think like two blocks up. I pauses and I said, Guys, guys, guys, do you realize what just happened there? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And they were like, yeah, we got to stop it. And I was like, No, but because we haven't lived in this experience. for that long, that to us, we treated and felt differently. about because to us that wasn't like police.

weren't our struggle in that way, right? So we were just like, yeah, sometimes the cops need to search, you know, we just keep it moving. Yeah. That's why I say it's not a scholarly answer, but I sometimes. feel like it's like. you aspire to a thing. that's fixed in another world, and it seems like an answer. And another. And yours seems more layered. and more complex and more difficult. So I have a view. on bleaching and I would encourage. everyone to read. the work of Professor at Yale Bublé, who's done really great work on like West. African communities in the diaspora. and in like the black diaspora and bleaching, whether it's Jamaica, Nigeria, etc., etc.

Colonialism did a number on. yeah, definitely. Like Colourism is so rife. Like I grew up. seeing women bleach and it was just a very. normal thing, you know, it was, it wasn't until like. I grew up. and deconstructed and it was just like, I feel like the Middle Passage. It's very clear. the tragedy and the trauma of that. Right, right, right. Displacement. You know, you were taken to another country, whether it's in the Caribbean or in America.

But the people that are. still in Africa. who stayed on my family, who were taken, they don't you don't necessarily. do the unraveling of like. what did colonialism and slavery do to us? And I think it. warped our sense of what is beautiful. and separate from African-Americans. and the media and stuff like that. Like Farah is seen as better. Right. And that is something that still hasn't. changed. Do you know I mean, I know.

women my age and young. I know Gen Z girls who bleach. Right. Did you guys have me now? But so really ignorant. But. for all of his like political impact. in terms of Malcolm X, one of the things that. came out of. that was like he like. he made a lot of that shameful. even though. it still happens, you know, but like that. whole like looking at yourself like. there was a stigma then from that point on. among black people about like nose jobs. to guys doing so. It's I think. there's a key psychic difference where.

I'm not going to speak for all. Yeah, of course West Africans. because there's a perception. like this is something I do. as an act of social mobility. It's got nothing to. Do with. Like how I actually feel about myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My, your bonus, my, your money. Okay. My tribe. You are. Right. It's something I do. Because I know in this world, especially in a country, I mean, if you are fair. skinned, you are treated better, and there's, like, studies on it, like. Yes, of. Course not.

So, yes, Trevor, I talk about all the time, like all the faces. of Africa, like Trevor Tyler. Yeah, like, you know, like, why is it that we, the face of Africa. that the West has bought into is mixed race? Because they're like, we, that's what. we want to see, right? And Africans intuitively know. that when you're like unambiguously. black and darker skinned, there's a. you're not going to get perceived. as African America, which is closer to power. and opportunity in your mind. So in your. Status. Yeah, status. So you're like, okay,

I'm going to lighten my skin. And it doesn't it's not it's a very. again, because race is constructed differently, your skin is not necessarily. the basis of your racial or ethnic identity, nor is your tribe. Right? Yeah. I fully trust. Yeah, it's your tribe. It's fully tribe. Bleaching your skin. doesn't impact your tribe. But I think if you're in an American context. Yeah, that's like dissonance. You feel the way you have this. You definitely have. Legacy of a legacy of passing. as a whole because.

Your tribe is defined by color in the U.S. and it isn't in Africa. You know, a. Tribe is always going to be your. Tribe. Your tribe is always your tribe. No matter. There's not enough bleaching. cream in the world. that's going to stop me being right. So I think there is that difference. But there is a sadness. that because. I think that sometimes. that can be an arrogance of, like I say, as an African right in diaspora, we were never enslaved, but we lost so much. We lost so much as well. And we often have the arrogance. It's like, well, we have our language. We have, but we lost a great deal.

And I think one of the things we lost. was seeing ourselves in the mirror and feeling. we are beautiful just the way we are. Whereas out here. you guys had the Black Power movement. and we're like, We're going to reclaim. the thing that you have said. It's not beautiful. I wonder if, like, I'm still there. because you asked that question about, you know, that essay being unfinished. But no, unfinished. No, no, no. Processing, no grappling. I'm with you because I. Feel emotionally, at least it was like, yeah, like it wasn't unresolved.

And I think what I hear you saying, like when you hear it, when you say loss, that is something. I obviously immediately relate to. And it's like, of course, we had a. Music, you know. We have that, you know, but as a real thing. I mean, it's been this musical exchange. back and forth, you know what I mean? That is, you know, even happening now. But I guess if I'm honest, what I left wondering about is, is the root at is kinship. actually a shared sense of loss? You know what I mean?

And if it is, is that actually enough? Is that kinship? You know what I mean? Like, is that okay? And when I was. thinking about it, I was writing. I was like, I don't think that's enough. Because actually, in fact, the way I phrased. it was all we have in common is the white man. was like my mind. Like, that's how I approach that. But you're saying something different? Yeah You're saying something different. You're not saying it's. the feeling inside of you, you know, of having. Because I'm saying. we do have that that sense of loss.

I mean. That's why we go back. Yeah, that's why we go back. I mean, all of these. people doing, you know, my, my family's from here in Scotland, which is a very American thing. I'm from here. in Ireland, I'm from and we're just like you. At a certain point, it just disappears. Yeah, we just don't know, you know? I mean, it's been erased. And that feeling is a deep, deep wound, you know what I mean? That so many of us are chasing, So much. so that we, you know, we would invent stuff. It's interesting. because you mentioned a lot. the Jewish experience and the Jewish diaspora.

It feels like to me. that they actually have bonding going. on, this feeling of loss and in ways that. Yeah. Many people have contentious. feelings about. Yeah, but it was like whether you're. Moroccan junior, right? Shoe polish, Jew. Right. We're going to be under this umbrella. Yes. I think loss can be has great kinetic energy. But what about the tracing I it's funny I think of. all your work in many ways is tracing, you know, and every beginning of a chapter.

and every story that you tell in the book. has a has a feeling of like, go and see. Yeah. It really has a go in. Seems like yourself. Yeah. Your book is getting banned. Go and see you went to go and see. You know, your people come from Africa. You have this identity. and maybe you connect to me, but go and see. Yes. Yeah, that's. You know what I mean? The people. of Gaza are being bombed. and the people of Israel. are fighting for their survival. And there's this conflict of ideas.

But go and see. Yeah. And it made me realize. how important a writer is, how important. a journalist is, how important. a storyteller is, because oftentimes we can't go and see. Us, right? Yeah, that's right. That's right. And there are a lot of journalists. and writers who won't go and see. Yeah. You know, even though, you know, they they should. And this is like, again, you know, the book is. written to my students. and this is like something. I'm really trying to drill in them. You really have to touch the thing. Like you got to touch it, you know, you got to feel it,

you got to experience it because. the way it will occur for. you will not be the way. it will occur for somebody else. You know what I mean? In its most specific, I think somebody with. a different history, with different things. might have thought. everything I saw in those ten days. and they would have been. something totally different, you know what I mean? And so I think. seeing it for yourself, running it through, you know, your own filters is crucial and key. You know, I know we're going to. wrap up soon, but I was thinking. This is my black. Podcast. This is what I like. I mean, run around talking to people. for like three days and I have not.

you know, I have not done this. I mean, I've needed to do this. I diaspora of. Black Britain, but I love this America. That warms my heart. Thank you for saying it. Thank you for doing this. Beautiful. You know, you know what? I think I said this to my friends people. I'm telling you, I'm a send. this like like my black friends. You know, we we blacks. I love I love them too much. We black when I'm doing comedy out there. Black Love it. Yeah. Because even over there, I tell my wife.

I don't want too many African. American friends here. Like there's a whole African-American. diaspora. Paris. Yes. I just want to be around. Well, I feel I'm just fine, but I don't want to like, I got to, you know, see my people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to break it up. you want to break it? I got to see some of that. Yes, exactly. You've got to break it up. You got to break it. No, no, no, not at all. And this is what it's for. And I'll end by saying this to you. I think if you remove the accolades, if you your words, if you remove the publishing house.

If you remove. The smartness, if you remove everything. we know about Ta-Nahisi Coates, that book would fit in the backpack. of somebody who truly sees. other people as human beings. first and foremost. And man, I wish we all thought like you. I think we're all guilty of stepping out of it. But yeah, thank you. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for writing and thank you for going. and seeing where we couldn't. And yeah, I hope we hope we get it. Maybe we'll do it in Paris next time. Yeah, I would. Love it I would love it. Thank you for the discussion. And thank you so. Much. Yeah, great. What now with Trevor Noah. is produced by Spotify Studios. in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor. Noah, Farnaz Yasmin and Jody AV. Again, our senior producer is just Hackel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music. Mixing and Mastering by Hannah Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode.

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