Ezra Klein: America At Its Breaking Point

Ezra Klein of the New York Times wields. a lot of influence in some parts of. Capitol Hill. >> If you want to talk policy, Ezra Klein. is the man to call. >> Ezra Klein, who believes that Biden has. been a very good president, makes the. case that he should bow out of this. campaign. >> He was on television urging Democrats, shut down the government. >> Ezra Klein says that Charlie Kirk was. practicing politics the right way. >> Journalism is dead. Legacy media is. dead. >> We're living in a time when truth is. under pressure. when misinformation and.

disinformation spreads faster than facts. and when journalism is being challenged. in unprecedented ways. >> Ezra Klene is an author and columnist. for the New York Times. He also writes. about polarization in American politics. and he tackles a whole host of big. issues in his podcast, The Ezra Klein. Show. [Music]. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. [Applause]. [Music].

We do our recording in a gray box and. yours similar to uh like ah it seems. like we should. >> I don't live my life in a gray box. It's. not authentic to me. Do you think do you. think they chose that because it feels. um like. >> Oh, they chose that because that's the. room in which we recorded and there were. no other rooms. >> There's not a that's not a plan.

We'll see what happens over time. But. moving a video was something that that. we pushed. >> Oh god. >> There hadn't been a buildout for that or. torn about that. What how do you feel. about it? >> Torn. I mean, it's a big it's a big. audience. It's a new audience. Um, I don't like having to think about how I. look. And you know, the way in which. things go viral is double-edged. >> Yeah. Podcasts are an incontext medium. and virality is an out of context. >> No one no one no one clips. >> a podcast.

>> Like no one audio. >> No one clips an audio podcast. No one. goes like, "Oh, this clip." I mean, you've you've probably seen this over. the years. When I was at the Daily Show, we'd always see how there'd be a scandal. of a politician saying something, but it. was only in audio. >> Never really went anywhere. >> Yeah. >> That's why I always think Trump's. grabbed him by the [ __ ] Never derailed. him because he's not on camera saying. it. >> That's interesting. Yeah. I guess the. only one that really worked was Mitt. Romney's like 47%. That was the audio in. it. >> Which one was that one? >> You remember he gave this riff at a.

fundraiser? He's like, "Look, 47% of the. country.". >> Oh, no, I don't remember that. >> Oh, yeah. It was a big deal. 2012. Oh, and that ended his. >> It didn't end anything. I mean, nothing. ends anybody. >> anymore, >> but it back then. Yeah, back then there. were enders. >> Yeah, >> at least we thought they were. Maybe. there were. >> Yeah. >> No, I think they were enders. And I. think enders still exist, funny enough. >> Well, we'll we'll look for one today. >> No, I I genuinely Which. >> of us doesn't make it out of this. >> I genuinely do. I think I genuinely. think there still are enders. >> Yeah. What's a What What What What do.

you think would be one for one side or. the other? I think they exist for. everyone except Donald Trump. >> Yeah. >> And I think it's because he's approached. this whole thing in the same way. that a wrestler does in that like the. whole point is to be the foil. The whole. point is to be you know what I mean? >> So. >> it's like it's it's if somebody's. playing the game by different rules, then the rules that we normally use. don't apply to them. >> So you go like, "Oh, that's how you get.

disqualified.". He can't getif. >> for the Republican party. The Enders are. all about Donald Trump. >> Like if JD Vance came out, man, we all know that fight and won the. 2020 election. That was ridiculous. But. we got to say it for, >> you know, that would be that would be. under for him. >> He he he created something new. and and no one has figured out how to. respond to the new that he created. >> Yeah. >> Do you know what I like the the the. mechanism that was set up to deal with.

the news. wasn't like in a weird way I feel like. the way we think of news is designed. perfectly for how news was. It has a. certain level of decorum and then I. think for Donald Trump you have to cover. him the way you cover wrestling and. reality TV. Do you know what I mean? >> Yes. >> Like those are not covered the same way. >> Yes. So, it's not going to be like, >> but the point of cover, I mean, the. thing that the news doesn't know what to. do about with Donald Trump, and we could. talk about this on the thing, but.

>> yeah, we could jump in. We're ready, right? >> Yeah, we can go jump straight in. >> Jump Jump straight in. >> I'm I'm following you, man. >> No, no, you just want me to give you. that answer. >> I want you to give me that answer. That's a great This is where the. audience found us in the middle of that. answer. Yeah. >> All right. So, the thing the news. doesn't know how to deal with with. Trump, um, and never figured out was that the. sort of implicit way the news worked was. that the news covered things. Yeah. >> In covering it, it created the thing's. importance and then in covering it.

positively or negatively, it sent a. signal to the country about whether or. not, you know, this politician, if it. was a political story, was good or bad. And when the news becomes in one side of. the country's narrative the enemy and so. covering the thing negatively is in fact. a badge of honor to that person, >> right? >> It breaks the feedback loop. >> that you know the the media as a source. of um judgment in American democracy was.

sort of built around. and yeah it never figured out what to do. after that. I'm not sure there is an. answer either. I. >> I I don't think there is. >> There aren't gatekeepers anymore in the. world. >> No, at least not that speak to. everybody. >> They actually aren't. I mean, >> except you maybe. >> No, far from it, my friend. There is no. gate. I don't have a key. I don't know. how the gate works. Um, you are you are. now in in an interesting. an interesting and and and um. complicated position now in in the news.

in that like, you know, you're with the. New York Times, but opinion. >> Mhm. You know, and I I thought to. myself, I was like, before we before we. get into the heavy topics, because I. mean, Ezra Kle, you deal with. everything. I was like I was like, let's. do something light. What is your opinion. on what's happening in the world right. now? >> That's your light. I'm not for it. >> against. But no, no. Okay. No. Jokes. aside, what what would like when you.

wake up every day and I I I love asking. people who work in the news this. question particularly because I find. there's often times a disconnect or or. rather just a different way that people. are seeing it. People who work in the. news and people who don't. People who. work in the news are sometimes like. people who work in in an emergency room. in that they have a very different idea. of July 4th than the people who are out. celebrating it. Do you get what I'm. saying? >> Yeah, I do. because they see the fire. the fire marks and the burns that that. people come in with. And so I wonder. like how you feel about this moment in.

time. Is it as bad as some people feel? You as somebody from the inside, do you. feel like it is, you know, a Defcon one? Cuz it goes backwards, right? It's like. a Defcon one. >> You always forget which Defcon you don't. want to be at. >> Yeah. I think we're at the one you don't. want to be at. >> We're at the Oh, okay. We're there. >> I I think if you go back in my career, I'm usually somebody saying, "Calm down. a little bit. things. You know, there's. a long soup of history. Things have been. much worse in the past. Go look at the. 60s. Constant political assassinations, violence in the streets.

I think that. we are. I think this is the worst political. moment in terms of its danger and threat. easily of my lifetime. Trump won, by the. way, at least until the pandemic. >> Yeah. >> One of the things I always said was that. George W. Bush was a much worse. president, >> right? that he led to many more deaths, that um the Iraq war and. >> uh other um dimensions of his foreign. policy deformed American politics for a. generation, created Donald Trump in.

certain ways by wrecking the Republican. party and making it a hollow shell, Trump could take over. But we're in. something different now. When you have. literally masked men abducting people. off the street, when you have military. occupation of American cities, when you. have the weaponization of the federal. government against supposed enemies, the. search for pretext on which to fire. people, on which to harass them. >> Yeah. I don't you don't need a PhD in.

history to know that those are the early. chapters of history books that are not. fun to read. Now, it doesn't mean it. will go that badly, right? You know, the. the real the reality of reality is that. talking about the future, you're always. talking about probabilities. Mhm. But. you know if you if I would have said at. the beginning of this administration. that you know 7030 we stay in the part. of the probability cloud that is.

relatively. normal right 30% chance we don't which. is pretty bad. >> Now I think it's more 50/50 or worse. It's funny when I when I first started. at the Daily Show, I was thrust into. this world of American politics and it. was politics the way it was. >> You know, everyone everyone had like a a. concrete idea of how things were, you. know. So, I remember seeing some of the. candidates come up and then people in. the building would tell me they were. like, "Oh, no, Trevor, that uh that's. they call it the what was it? Summer.

madness or it was it had like a name in. in in the media world, you know, where. people go like those candidates don't. count. They're not going to be around a. silly summer, I think is what they said. Yeah, they said silly summer. So all of. these people you see popping up, they're. not Ben Carson, Donald Trump, all of. that. That's not going to be a thing. because everyone was so sure they knew. how America worked. And I would say from. 2016 onwards, the one thing I've. realized is more than ever, I've seen. Americans go, I I don't know. I I I. don't know how this country actually.

works now. I don't, you know, there used. to be like a fixed idea about how it. worked. And now that that seems to be. gone. I. >> mean, we were talking about this before. the camera turned on, but people thought. they understood. what the rules of politics were. >> Yeah. >> And what kinds of political. moves, comments, decisions. would be functionally disqualifying. What was a level beneath which the. American people would not let you go? And that was a form of American.

exceptionalism, internalized American. exceptionalism. these terrible things. have happened in other places, but we're. America. They're not going to happen. here. We have this political culture, this civic culture, uh this fundamental. understanding. of how we're supposed to treat one. another. >> And I think that to the extent many. people who used to feel certainty around. that have become a bit unmed, it's the. recognition of a bottomlessness. Trump has not found the bottom. There's. not a thing he has done except maybe.

support uh vaccinations for co. that he has not been able to persuade. his own base to tolerate. >> You know, maybe the Epstein files. Um. but it is in fact the thing that uh made. so many people initially think Trump. would be disqualified not by some you. know rulemaker somewhere but by the. voters. >> The cruelty the outrageousness the sort. of gleeful destruction. of um what I would say are things that.

maintained basic civic bonds that. actually makes him appealing to many. people. And once that got understood, right, and in fact, forget like the. people on the left who used to think. they knew how American politics worked. Think about the people on the right. >> Go read, you know, JD Vance's Hillbilly. LG. >> and like check out the things that Vance. was saying on podcasts about virtue and. public life and the way we treat each.

other. >> after that in that period, right? I mean. there and look at the personality. transplants of Ted Cruz, of Elise. Stefonic, of Vance, of Once people. understood. that it was. not only but quite substantially the. worst parts of Donald Trump that. accounted for his appeal. It wasn't all. that people thought he was a businessman. from watching The Apprentice. That really altered things. And then when he was able to not just go. through the first term, but box out and.

but box out every other Republican after. losing re-election. >> Yeah. Which is almost unheard of. >> Almost unheard of. >> Yeah. >> So then there was no pathway to power. except his favor on the right. And so. the complete demolition. of the idea that this will ever snap. back, at least anytime soon, that we're. just in an aberant moment from a sort of. unusual reality TV superstar. Like.

that's over and that's the end of the. shity, right? Both on the left and the. right. >> Everybody understands we're in a. different game now. Or if they don't, >> which actually to be fair, I think a lot. of Democratic Party politicians don't, they're. dinosaurs, right? They're they're going. to get they're going to go extinct. >> One of the biggest reasons I want. >> Hope you didn't bring me here for. optimism. >> Oh, no. We're gonna find optimism. We're. going to find optimism, my friend. Um I. always think optimism. is only defined by, you know, the time.

scale you're using. >> That's fair. Yeah. >> Yeah. 100 years things get much better. Thousand years, million years, uh did we. even matter? Um. >> the AIS are going to love what we left. them. I like I like the assumption that people. think that the AIS will want the same. things we want if they get as. intelligent as they do. But we'll we'll. actually talk about AI because I I loved. your your your piece on it. I I I want. to I want to talk about you as Ezra. Klein because you know there's a there's. a um there's a song in the musical.

Hamilton, right? I think it's Eron. Burr's character. Forgive me if I get. any of these people wrong. I just. remember the songs and I remembered. liking it. And he has the song, the room. where it happens, >> right? And all he's singing about in the. song is he goes, I just want to be in. the room where it happens, >> where the rules are written, >> where the constitution is made, where. countries are defined, where where he's. like, I don't even he it's an. interesting song because it's a person. saying, I don't even care to necessarily.

do it. I don't necessarily care to be. remembered for it, but man, I want to be. in that room where it happens. And all I. could think about for this episode was. that's Ezra Klein. >> that I just want to be in the room where. it happens. >> No, no, no. That you are in the room. where it happens. Not that you want to. be because I I went look at this ven. diagram. Right. >> Uhhuh. >> Right. For anyone who's like tuning in. going like, "Okay, Trevor, what's your. fascination with Ezra Klein?" I go, "Okay, how about this? Here's somebody. who is in the epicenter of news in many. ways. You know, you you've got Vox,

which I was a big fan of. Helped me a. lot on the Daily Show, by the way. We. got to talk about that." Um, you got Vox. that that reshaped how many people saw. news, especially young people. now working at the New York Times, you. know, curating, shaping the opinion. section, working on the podcast, you. know, like doing journalistic work that. sort of like branches out what the New. York Times does. So, you've got the news. element, journalism. Then you've got the writing, the the. investigating, the campaigning for. certain ideas in the world. So, like. shaping what the world is thinking. Then.

you've got another another little circle. and that is the politics itself. The. amount of times I've heard a person who. is either a Democrat in power or. somebody who's adjacent to them saying. well we we're going to reach out to Ezra. Klein or Ezra Klein hopefully will in. some way shape or form your name is. there and I was like wow the politicians. are even looking to this guy and then. you're in like this world. I see you on. podcasts. I see you talking to like. everyday people. This is the perfect ven.

diagram of the room where it happens. Do. you feel like that about yourself? >> I uh No. Um No. >> I've lost faith in there being a room. where it happens. >> Ah, Ezra. No, you can't be serious. Says. the man in the room. >> I think that one of my lessons of the. past couple years is there's not a room. Look, man. Everybody knew. Everybody knew Joe Biden was too old to. run for president again. >> Okay. >> Everybody knew.

>> Not that he was scenile. He wasn't. scenile. >> Yeah. >> But they knew. And there was no room. Not only was. there no room, the people in the room. were not in a position. where they could even say it. >> H. And the point is not that that I have. some great perspective on any of this. The point is that. I one of the things I find frightening. about this period for all that I was.

talking about earlier. >> is the feeling that you know I am at my. core a reporter. I talk to people as you. were saying sometimes they talk to me. >> and I think in a lot of these. conversations some part of me is like. are you the adult? Are you the person. who knows what's going on here? Yeah. >> And you come to realize. that person isn't there or that set of. people. There's nobody set in strategy. for the Democratic party right now, man.

There are some people in theory in. charge, but they are not. They're. reactive. They're behind, >> right? >> And it gives you a different like I see. things as much less formed. I think when. I was a reporter working in the. Washington that had rules that you were. talking about earlier, >> I believed much more and I think it was. actually truer that there was a room. where it happened. >> Okay. >> And I think those I think that's not. really how a lot of things work. It's um.

diffuse across social media. For. instance, the amount of elite. communication that elites are doing with. each other through social media vibes. and through this tweet. I mean, Donald. Trump is of course the epicenter of. this. >> Yeah. How much of his not just governing. but his signal sending to the rest of. the Republican party to the right to the. country is not going into a room where. the stakeholders are assembled and like. banging his fist on the table and giving. them an answer. It's shooting out a.

tweet or a truth social post. What he is. doing in all caps, they're all doing. now. But here's here's here's the thing. I think you may be missing is. >> often times the people in the room don't. know that they're in the room. >> This metaphor is starting to stretch. >> No, think about this. This is what I. mean honestly, right? We we call it the. room where it happened and we think. about it like that because whatever. happened has now had an effect on. society. That's when that room has an. importance. You you with me? So when you.

think about that hotel room where you. know it's like Harry Bellfonte meeting. with MLK and meeting like that becomes. something. then it's just a hotel room. >> Yeah. >> No one in that room walked in and went. this is the room where it happens. Do do. you get what I'm saying? >> I think we're not saying something that. different now. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so, so this is this is. what I'm saying fascinates me about you. And and even you giving me that answer. makes me more excited to talk to you. about it because I go that means to me. you sort of like are approaching this. with a degree of humility which I'm I'm.

I'm honestly intrigued by cuz I go some. people would go, "Yeah, I'm that guy.". You're going like, "No, no, there's. there's not even a room. >> There's not a room. There's not a guy.". >> Okay, so let's let's let's go on a. journey together then. Let's go on a. journey. Let's let's let's let's start. this journey cuz I want I want to build. all these pieces together, right? You. got Ezra Klein who gets into um. campaigning was really like your first. foray into the world of politics, right? Like like campaign blogger. >> No, no, but before like never before.

that. >> Uh weren't you with um. >> Dean? >> Yes. >> That was after I was a blogger. >> So you were blocked by the Dean campaign. because Joe Trippy, the campaign manager. on the Dean campaign, read my Blogspot. blog that I started as a 18-year-old. college student. and had 35 hits on my. site, my chart, my site meter, I think. it was called back then, my traffic. meter. >> a day. And one of them turned out to be. Joe Trippy. >> And so at some point, he invited me to. intern on the Dean campaign. >> What was it, what was it about your. writing that got somebody who was. running a presidential campaign to say,

"Yo, something very specific actually.". Uh, I had read the book that as much as. any book did got me into politics. The. great the single greatest piece of. campaign journalism ever produced. This. is every political journalist will tell. you this is Richard Ben Kramer's account. of the 1988 presidential election called. what it takes. >> and what it takes one of the it follows. a bunch of the candidates that year and. as a college student reading this I got. sort of into Gary Hart who's this very. fascinating he was very far-sighted way.

ahead on a lot of things but is very. tame by modern standards very tame. >> the good old days of monkey business. >> in 2003 or 2004 for I forget what year. uh this is all happening exactly, but. Gary Hart, who has been out of politics. for a long time, is considering running. for president again. >> Mhm. >> And as a weird what it takes obsessive. on my little Blogspot blog, I am a Gary. Hart stan. Joe Trippy had worked on.

Hart's 88 campaign. I'm pretty sure. that's the one he was on. And so Hart, I'm sorry, Trippy, I think, was somewhat. fascinated. uh to see this like college student. blogging in support of his one-time. employer. I mean, also the blog was. small then and the Dean campaign was the. first campaign. to take blogs seriously and so Trippy. kept more tabs on the blogsphere than. other people would have. >> They were ahead of the curve. >> Yeah, they were ahead of the curve very. I mean like blogs then are basically the.

the the inception of the idea of. podcasts now. If you look at each. election, >> there's a new type of media that sort of. has its imprint on them. >> and blogs are you know this is like. world of blogs. >> So that's I think how Trippy ends up. being kind of fascinated by me. >> and you get called in and you interning. on this campaign. What was it like? I. mean for those who don't know like how. Dean was basically he's like the. favorites. This is like. >> No, no, no. But there was a moment where. it was like, "This is the guy. He's. going to do it." Yeah. In the primary, they're like, "Oh man, this guy's going.

to do it. >> This guy's going to do it." And then I. still don't fully understand the story. He went, "Oh, yeah." Like the Kool-Aid. Man or something and then it all ended. So, I don't think it was. Oh, yeah. Um, I left the I was an intern on the. campaign for like four to six weeks over. a summer. >> and my learning from that was I never. wanted to be on a campaign again. >> Why? I just don't want to have to defend. everything a politician says. I don't. want my judgment to be subsumed to. theirs. I just didn't like that part of.

being on a campaign. I could see what it. meant when you would rise up because I. did. I thought I wanted to work in. politics. >> Okay. >> And I realized that I would not be good. at working in politics because, you. know, my views would differ and that's. not what you can have as staff. And um. but Dean and I'm worried I'm going to. get some uh details here wrong by. memory, but but Dean loses Iowa. That. was a thing that the the Democratic. party and it would end up doing the same. thing at later dates, right? Like 2022. >> The Democratic party very much wanted to.

be George W. Bush that year. >> And Dean had developed a lot of. grassroots momentum, >> but there was a fear that he was. unelectable. and the party sort of fled to safety of. John Kerry, the the war hero, the known. quantity and um you know and then as. soon as like. Dean's momentum. blunted then there was this kind of. flight um and so Carrie becomes the. nominee. You can see a very similar.

thing happen way with Biden where you. know Bernie Sanders is has much more. grassroots momentum, much more you know. excitement within the base. Um Biden is. struggling, right? He's not doing well. He doesn't I mean Budajuch wins Iowa, not Biden. Um but then it's like after. South Carolina and Biden wins that. There's a kind of flight to the safety. of Joe Biden, which was sort of maybe a. good idea for that election, not a good. idea in the long run. Um you know, the. Democratic party tries to make safe. strategic decisions when it's really.

afraid of losing. And so I think you saw. that in those two elections, which is. slightly separate from the question you. asked me, but is where my mind went. No, you see, I I love it because remember, I'm building a case here. >> Uhhuh. >> The room where it happens because just. in that story for me alone, you're in a. moment in time that I think goes on to. define something. One part is maybe myth and the way. stories are told, right? Because many of. the people that I've spoken to and still. speak to now in in journalism or.

political circles, they'll say, "No, it. was the Howard Dean Yelp. >> That's what got him." And and what. sticks to me or what what sticks out in. in in people bringing that up is that it. created this idea that you had to be. perceived a certain way in order to win. an election. Right? So many people took. the cautionary tale away from the story. They didn't talk about not winning Iowa. They said, "No, you have to be prim. You. have to be proper. You have to make sure. everything you do is right because if. you scream or yelp in the wrong way,

it's over for you.". >> Mhm. And this sort of persists for a. very long time in American politics. You. know, they're like, are you electable? Forget your politics. Do you just, you. know, do you have that electability? >> Say again, I really hope I'm remembering. it right that it's Iowa. He lost it in. not New Hampshire. Have not fact checked. this in real time. It's been a long time. since I found out before. >> We We'll throw this thing. We'll put it. up on screen. Fine. We We've got. technology now. >> Yeah, we we could just throw the thing. up. We or we just put up liar on your. face as you say. Put on my face like a. thing. Bam. Liar. Bam. Liar. You got it.

Then we just carry on with the episode. >> Perfect. Good. >> Yeah, that's that's all it is. >> No. So, okay. So, you work in this. world. You realize you don't want to. work in politics because you don't want. to tow a line. And so, you get dragged. into journalism, right? Like this. You. get pulled into this world of. >> I'm blogging and people around me begin. realizing I'm to become a journalist way. before I do, right? They're like, >> "Yeah, but what is it about? I want to. know like what they saw in you that you. didn't see and and what still keeps you. going in that world today?" because.

you're very good at it. That's the. thing, >> you know. So, blogging, which nobody. went into at that time to build a. career, didn't nobody knew what that. word was, right? It was a thing that a. lot of us were just doing because we. wanted to write about politics on the. internet. It was like no different than. writing in a forum or and we didn't have. social media back then the way we do. now. >> So, you know, I'd started a small blog. spot blog and then typad to to the kids. out there. These are uh blogging. publishing softwares. And you know, it. just kind of kept getting bigger. I, you.

know, was part of a co-blogger team. called Pentagon and then Not Geniuses. was another one I was on. >> And it just kind of kept building and. then, you know, it went from dozens of. people a day to hundreds to thousands. It was never huge by, you know, podcast. or YouTube or anything standards, but um. but it was enough to get a little bit. noticed by a media industry that was. trying to figure out what is this. blogging thing and how do we get some of.

its energy for ourselves? And so the. next year I um intern at the Washington. Monthly which is a small policy. magazine. And you know that's the first. time I'm around journalism. And in terms. of you know what did other people see in. me? I think one thing other people saw. that I didn't was that journalism is a. career. Uh it's not like I grew up the. kid of a bunch of journalists. I lived. in Southern California. I didn't know. anybody who did that professionally. >> which is rare for a lot of journalists. by the way. >> Yeah. >> People like oh you're my uncle.

>> Exactly. there's some there's more of. that than a pass down. >> Um or you're just in more of a millu. where it exists. Um and I so I just had. never really thought about it. Um I I. don't have like a much better like I. sort of assumed that uh for a long time. that I assumed I'd work in politics and. then that wasn't going to be true. And. you know maybe I'd go to law school but. I didn't want to be a lawyer which. seemed like a problem with that plan. And um you know so then I went and.

interned at the monthly and just loved. it and loved um just being around. journalism. And I mean the idea it is. still a kind of magic as a journalist. that you can call just people who know. everything about something and they will. out of nowhere take an hour out of their. day to explain it to you. Right? You can. just like how does a Federal Reserve. work? Right? Just like the idea that you. could just follow curiosity around like. that is remarkable. Um I still have not.

lo I mean my whole podcast is you just. bring people on you're like I can just. ask you all these questions and you'll. answer them. >> in a way that it would be really weird. to do if you were at a party or in. social life. I've a couple of times had. friends on my show. You know people I've. known a long time. >> Yeah. And I just noticed that I ask them. questions there that in the whole long. arc of our relationship I've never asked. because you don't typically say to. people why do you do what you do? What. have you learned in it? You know what. about this kind of very basic question.

about it? Not you're so often trying to. show people you understand them and. you're keeping up with our stories. You. don't just sit there and indulge your. curiosity for two hours. Yeah, >> you know, so the next year I sort of. apply for a writing fellowship at the. American Prospect and get that and you. know that's sort of like almost a. glorified internship there. Um, and you. know, then then we're off to the races. Those races involve Vox. I have a I have a deep personal. fascination with Vox because for a few. reasons. One, I was starting at the.

Daily Shows 2015 into 2016. First John. was still the host and I was popping in. and doing segments. 2016 I become the. host of the Daily Show. You know, frying. pan into the fire. >> 2015 into 2016 is also a time when, you. know, America's heading into an. election. The. >> Yeah, I vaguely remember that. >> Yeah. Yeah. The Republican field. >> How'd it go? >> Yeah. The Republican field. No, I don't. want to spoil it. You've got to watch. it. Watch it. No spoilers. The. Republican field is bigger and crazier. than it's ever been. You know, people.

are like, "What is this Democratic side. of things?" and everything seems a. little crazier than usual, but but from. my recollection, most people believed. that this was a blip and the norm would. be established. And that norm was. Hillary Clinton would win because she. seemed like the most winnable, you know, candidate. It's like this is the winning. person. And the Republican side seemed. like a joke for the most part. It was. crazy. There were too many people and, you know, this is this is all happening. I'm now trying to consume as much news.

as possible to catch up so I can be in. this world of American, you know, news. I realized very quickly that a lot of. the people in the news in America either. don't understand it. or like in and around politics, they. don't understand it or they don't know. how to explain it. And then I stumbled. upon this website called Vox. And not only is it telling you the news, it's breaking it down. It's explaining. it, you know. It's like, oh, let me tell. you, this is what gerrymandering is. And.

>> Trevor, you're warming my cold. I'm. being serious. I'm being serious. And I. I I think there are a lot of people who. are my age or younger especially who. went, "Oh, now I not only understand. this, but I know why I should care." And. I wonder if if if you felt that like. when you were doing your work at Vox, did you feel like you were trying to fix. something that was wrong with journalism. at that time in that like journalism had. become an insiders game? Politics had. become an insiders game and for the.

first time for me at least when I was. watching Vox and I think a lot of people. were interacting with it, they went, "Oh. no, this is me." Politic like the Greek. word it is of the people. I'm the. people. So my uh trajectory in. journalism from the American Prospect, I. was there for three or four years. I. went to the Washington Post and what I. became known for as a journalist was. extremely detailed coverage of policy. debates which people had traditionally. thought nobody would read.

And because they thought nobody would. read it, it didn't get that many. resources. I mean, I'm not saying it was. never covered, >> but it, you know, the the great job in. journalism was to cover the election, cover the horse race, cover the and and. policy journalism was a bit of a a bit. more of a backwater. >> It's C-SPAN. >> C-SPAN. >> Yeah. >> And. I um had this blog at the Prospect and. and also wrote pieces for the magazine. there. It was very policyheavy. they got. picked up by the the Post to work in.

their business and economic section. where I had a blog and um in particular. I did a huge amount of coverage of. healthcare. and the thing that frustrated me. covering it because I was able to build. a really good audience for that and. people wanted to know and yet every day. we were covering the thing in the act. that was changing or maybe changing. >> Mhm. which most days was, if people, anybody remembers this at all, um the.

public option in Obamacare, whether the. government would run a health insurance. um plan that you could buy into. >> We spent most of that year, anybody. covering this, covering, you know, the. back and forth of the public option. In. the end, the public option didn't make. it into the bill. Uh Joe Lieberman. killed it. And I remember thinking a lot. during that year. It's like if you had. just not read most of what we covered. about the Affordable Care Act, if you. had checked in like eight months ago and. checked in right here at the end, in a. weird way, you would have been better.

informed. You'd have not gone through. like knowing a lot about a thing that. did not end up existing. And I'm not. saying that coverage is totally useless. because, you know, maybe the public. option would have happened, but it also. was never the main part of the bill. >> And the thing that frustrated me was. knowing that I had covered so many parts. of the bill. the construction of the. exchanges, the Medicaid, how are we. going to do subsidies, silver plans, bronze plans. I mean, all this is on. some level maybe sounds like. gobbledygook to people, risk corridors. And there was nowhere to put it all. together.

>> Every day you could come to my wonk blog. as it was called and hear what was. happening in policy that day. But if you. just had the question, what the hell is. Obamacare? How does it work? What does. it do? We didn't have anything for you. But that was most people's question when. I looked at my email. That was most. people's what they were asking about. They were asking about something that. wasn't happening today. And I started. thinking about how the news is so. focused on what's new and changing. And.

for a very obvious reason, which is that. the way the news worked for a very long. time was we um etched ink into wood. pulp, flattened wood pulp, and gave it. to people. And that's expensive to do. And so you had like the whole thing was. built in order to minimize. uh how much space we had to use, >> right? Yeah. >> Um like paper's expensive, but now we're. on the internet and you don't have to do. that anymore. And so could you build. something using websites and new.

publishing technologies that attached to. ongoing stories all the context you. needed to understand them? And Vox was. sort of built on this experimental idea. And without going like into the whole. sorted history of card stacks and all. these different things we tried, some. parts of it worked, some parts of it. didn't. Um there are things that um when. we launched it, uh this is sort of like. very weedsy publishing history, but in a. way I think it's important. Um.

the whole news business went into this. period where Facebook was firehosing. traffic at everybody. And so all of a. sudden your ability to control like. where people read your stuff broke. And. so actually your ability to innovate as. the news broke because you couldn't. innovate on their platform only your. own. So a lot of the things that I. thought were the most interesting. the way the technology evolved didn't. quite allow. But what Vox was built to. do what it is still out there doing um. was to be focused on the contextual.

layer of the news to use the new thing. that happened to talk about the broad. thing that was happening. and at our. best across a bunch of different forms. from articles to the Netflix show. explained which we did for five seasons. Um you know that that thing like how do. you how do you get at the thing that. isn't changing but is really important. Uh you know it was a a new way to. animate a a news site. I think I think. beyond that though there was something. you were doing that was addressing. a need that had had arisen had arisen.

because of what had happened in America. and in many places in the world. I think. we're seeing it as well. I think as as. communities have gone down, as people. spend less time in community, like. community halls, community, you know, gatherings, at town council meetings, when you look at how um ubiquitous and. omnipresent those things were in. people's lives and you you you see them. diminish over time in America and around. the world, it's interesting when you. watch like old I'm sure you've seen a. bunch of them, pictures or when there. were videos, people would be at a town.

hall meeting like in a big way. There. are still a few in small parts of. America here and there, but I don't. think it is where it used to be. And in. those there would be a lot of discussing. what does that mean? They said they're. going to build a highway, but my house. is there. What what what is that? What. is eminent domain? And someone would. have to explain it and someone would get. into the details of what the law was or. the idea was or the politics were. Once. that went away, no one thought to. themselves that people's ability to. dissect, process, and then respond to.

the news is directly related to how much. information they have about what the. news is reporting. >> Mhm. >> Do you know what I mean? >> Mhm. >> TV shows started understanding this. That's why they went with previously on. >> Yeah. >> Cuz they went, "Hey man, maybe you. didn't see the previous episode or maybe. you forgot it.". >> Yeah. >> And and if you think about it, it's like. they spent so much time focusing on. something so stupid. who cares if you. know what happened in the previous. episode, but they were like, "No, we. need you to." And I was always. fascinated that the news sort of didn't. do that. The news wasn't saying. previously on. It would just tell you.

this happened today. The Democrats did. this. The Republicans did this. This. person did that. That person said this. But you'd go, "But how do we get here?". And that's what I feel you tapped into. That's what I feel like you and your. colleagues worked on was creating the. context that the news relies on without. realizing it. Does that make sense? >> I think that's right. I mean, again, I a. lot of it was about the internet made. new things possible. >> Yeah. >> You when you have profound changes in.

communication mediums, what you are. communicating should not stay the same. >> And I mean, for everything we're talking. about, >> wait, say that again though. I love. that. When you have profound changes in. communication mediums, what you are. communicating and for that matter the. way you are communicating it shouldn't. stay the same. If it does, >> you've not noticed something. >> And by the way, this is one of the. things that explains the breakdown in. the rules of politics and the. assumptions that we know what's going. on. Yeah, >> it was not the case that when I was a. kid, you know, to when I was um in my.

20s that the dominant mediums of. political communication changed like. five times. But since then, it's been. like, you know, blogs and then the rise. of social media, then the rise of. algorithmic social media and podcasting. and Tik Tok virality. And one of the things just happening is. that a lot of politicians are not suited. and a lot of political figures and. thinkers and parties and they're built.

for the old way of doing things. >> Trump, say what you will about him, he. is truly [ __ ] native to Twitter, >> right? Like like as if. >> but he's an OG on Twitter if you if you. look like he is. >> he was there back in the day. >> He was designed by it. I'm like a big. fan of like, you know, these media. theorists like Marshall McLuhan and like. his big the line people maybe heard from. him as a medium is a message. And what. he means by that is that we get. distracted. We're like, is it a good. tweet or a bad tweet? And he's like, it. doesn't matter. What matters is what.

being on there leads you to expect and. reward. >> Yeah. >> And what Twitter is is a. um platform that creates compression. Right. Initially it's one it's what 130. characters later becomes 280 and now. it's kind of whatever but. >> it rewards the in like incredible. compression of an idea and then rewards. you or penalizes you based on whether. the people who follow you like it. >> Yeah. Or or respond to it which was. >> respond the other thing right they could.

also hate it. That's that's possible. >> as long as they engage in it. That was. the main thing. >> What it is not is deliberative. What it. is not is like a way to hear people out. And on the one hand, on the other hand, Trump is not deliberative, right? Trump. is not listening. Like, but Trump is. amazing at knowing what's resonating in. a crowd. >> Oh, yeah. He gets retweets. Yeah. >> That's what he's aiming for. >> And so, um, anyway, so Vox in a way is. built for a new medium, but it keeps. changing, right? It keeps moving. And um.

I think one of the things to just be. really alert to is the way every. movement changes medium. We were talking. before the show started about this is a. podcast on some level. >> but in the last couple of years all the. podcasts have gone video too. >> Yeah. >> And some were always there like Rogan. but but a lot of us weren't. I I've gone. video. Um and going video changes the. show, right? So now people get these. like little clipped out pieces of. podcasts.

And in many ways, what made podcasting. such an unusual medium was that that. didn't happen. >> It was all in context. >> It was all in context. But now we're in. video because video allows it like. people clip it out and then it goes. viral and then people know you did the. podcast, which is can be great, but also. it's going to change how people act in. the room. >> Yeah. >> It's going to change how the interviewer. acts, right? every time the medium. changes, it changes us back. And so I. think like one of the things that, you.

know, maybe you're picking out of my. career, but it's I think I'm pretty. alert to how mediums are changing like. on the meta level. That is what I'm. picking. >> And you got to think about what are the. opportunities and what are the. drawbacks, right? I am not I do not. write on X or threads or blue sky. Like. now my show will put some clips up, but. not because I don't think anybody. should, but because it doesn't work for. the kind of content I want to put into. the world. Like the compression is in.

many ways like the enemy of what I'm. trying to do. The compression and the. did you like it? Did you like it? Did. you like it? >> Yeah. Fundamentally, >> I sort of want people to have the. feeling after listening to my show like, >> huh, I need to think about that for a. while. >> I don't just want them go like yeah. And. so, you know, you got to decide like. where like what are the mediums that. that work that way. Um, one of the most. frustrating things to me about the media. is how bad it is about thinking about. mediums. Like just like the poverty of. media theory and the media is crazy.

uh and among politicians and it's like. it's such a defining force in our lives. Like what are the rules and incentives. of the places in which we communicate? Why why do you think the media is so bad. at looking at itself when it's so good. at looking at everything else? You know, like I' I've always been intrigued by. this, like why every with New York. Times, Washington Post, they seemed like. they were the slowest to adapt to where. the world was moving while they were. reporting on the world moving. You know, they would be writing articles about how.

everything's becoming digital, but they. weren't becoming digital. they would be. covering stories about how people are. watching less TV on TV, but TV wouldn't. think about what the next step should be. beyond TV. Well, like why do you think. that is? Because you you would think. it's the most observant space to be in. And yet, it's usually not because nobody. noticed. I I'll say two things about it. So, one is that it's not that the media. doesn't isn't even good at looking at. itself. The media actually loves to talk. about itself. >> It's not good at looking at the thing.

around itself. So the media loves to talk about. editorial decisions for instance. Okay? Do we make the right editorial. decisions? >> It doesn't like to talk about the. financial context in which those. editorial decisions happen. And I'm not. saying something hugely conspiratorial. here, but like the way newspapers for. instance evolved. >> Yeah. >> What's the business model of a classic. newspaper? >> The business model of a classic. newspaper is a local advertising. monopoly. You are funding foreign. bureaus by telling people there's a shoe.

sale down the block. You are funding, you know, deep corruption investigations. by telling people that down the street. somebody is selling a skateboard and. like classifides, local advertising, etc. What that creates is a huge incentive to. be palatable to the entire community or. as much of it as you possibly can. Mhm. >> Because you need them to go buy the. shoes. >> Being the one newspaper, >> right,

>> is a lot more valuable than being one of. two or one of four, right? It's what did. Michael Jordan say, right? Republicans. and Democrats buy shoes. >> Yeah. >> And so the. >> which he he says he didn't say in that. way or whatever, but it's it's an. interesting, you know, just talking. about. >> true by the way. Republicans and. Democrats do buy shoes, right? There's a. almost a political wisdom in that. comment that I think it's easy to. dismiss, too. Um but so the the voice of. the newspaper evolves to be extremely. neutral and then around it you have. things like tabloids and and and and. other things like that. What then.

happens is you move online and the. reason it's hard for um the. organizations to do what you're talking. about is there actually is immediately a. um tension between these two business. models. >> Right? So what you are doing to maintain. your local advertising monopoly. >> and what you do to stand out in the. hyperco competitive and eventually. algorithmic and socially shared space of. online content. >> are almost fundamentally the opposite.

things. and it is very hard to shift one. business model to the other and one. newsroom to the other. Right? People. grew up doing a kind of thing. they were. trained for a kind of thing and maybe. you don't even want to do the other. thing because you think maybe with some. justification the other thing isn't a. great thing for democracy or not the. right way to do the news. >> it's beneath you in a way it's it's less. prestigious. >> you know um you see this all the time. with uh there's endless debate online. about the New York Times headlines and.

um you know are they sanewashing Donald. Trump or are they you know are they. really anti-Trump if you're on the right. and one of the things that I mean first. if you're reading a New York Times. headline. Um, like the the amount of uh. leverage I think the left thinks we have. over American politics in our headlines. is not true. Like most people who read. New York Times headlines probably have a. pretty settled opinion about Donald. Trump. But also the New York Times wants. to be a place that the other half of the. country can read, right? These tensions. don't have an answer. Um and they.

reflect. uh in our paper in other organizations. you know not just like a question of how. do you do the media or how do you do the. news. >> but who are you for how do you fund that. thing? How do people find you? Right? This is such a big deal. The thing that. is now broken is distribution. Um I mean. the business model is too but but. distribution for a while we distributed. through you came and subscribed and. bought the thing. The New York Times is. one of the last places that has a. homepage that matters. What we decide to.

put in what order on our homepage is. meaningful in the structure of American. politics, how people find us. But even. for us and for a lot of other places, that's not really how people find you. They use before social media kind of. broke, they came through social media. So then you're only seeing what the like. I always felt this advice. I often felt. people had a often had a very weird. impression of us because they only knew. we spent all this time thinking about. like in what order to put things on the. homepage because we were trying to give. you an editorial product that had a.

certain structure to it. >> but we had no control. >> No, people were coming to you through. it's a clip. >> all these through a clip like through a. link through a this thing went viral. because we hate it or we love it. >> but they didn't see all the things that. didn't go viral which were like how you. had to understand like the entire. package of the news. the bundle. unbundled. >> and like that changes everything too. And so like the the New York Times. headlines people know are the ones they. don't like for one reason or another. Um. which is fine. Like that's not that's. their right. The point is not to to. complain about um the critiques. The.

point is more that I I think the place. where the media is the worst is about. thinking about the context in which it. operates and like the forces it actually. doesn't have control over. M. >> um and then like you know and then it's. very very hard to adapt to those as they. change. >> It's funny you bring up two points that. I think a lot of people would be. interested in because we think about and. we speak about it all the time. One is. who tells the news slash who is who has. the right to tell the news? And then the.

other part of it is has the news ever. been fixed? You know like people now. will say they'll go oh man I don't trust. the news anymore. The news is broken. man. I don't know you, you know, and. then a lot of older people be like, you. know, back in my day, you could trust. the news. You knew that the news was, you know, but now these days you don't. know back in the day. But I mean, if if. I'm listening to what you're saying, rarely all that happened is they might. have moved further away from that. central sort of hub of where the news. was. They moved further away from the. shoe store. So now the news is not sort.

of for them anymore. And so maybe if we. look at both of these, like how do how. do you process that as a journalist? Like on the one hand, has the news ever. been fixed? You know, because like black. people in America and in many countries. will go like, "Oh, which news? The the. the news took a while to get around to. our stories." Women might say the same. thing. Which news? The news took a. while. People in other countries might. go like, "Oh, you Americans, you your. news. Let me tell you what was actually. happening in my actual country that your. news was reporting on." So, let's talk.

about that part first. Like, how do you. how do you think about that as a. journalist? is like do you even have to. grapple with the idea of biased not. biased where are we calling ourselves or. what is the core of what we're doing. >> I will speak for myself as a journalist. and say. >> speak for all of them Ezra. >> I speak. >> all of them you speak for all of them I. I have never been a believer in the. concept of objective news I don't think. there there's an old um Hondress. Thompson quote something like the only.

time I ever saw objective news was on. the closed uh circ circuit camera, the. security camera at a Walworth. There is news that is trying hard to be. fair and news that is not. There is news that is curious and news. that it is not. >> But people always talk about bias as if. bias only lives in the adjectives used. in a story. Right? If I say Donald Trump. said X. and then I put a bunch of spin on the. ball versus I don't or what's been. that's where they see the bias. >> Yeah. The bias in the news, the most.

fundamental form of bias and another way. of saying bias is judgment or decision-m. is in what to cover at all. The. universe of possible stories is so much. larger than any publication because. we're not just covering what happened. today. We could do long form, we could. do narrative, we could do anything. >> The most fundamental question is what do. we cover and why? And. the thing that we have never grappled.

with um again, you know, I'm not sure. there is a way to grapple with it, but. nobody's ever offered a good framework. for how we make our coverage decisions. And often times that's what I wanted us. to think about the most. The most. important question is what to decide to. cover. And then there's a question of. how do you cover it? >> Yeah. >> And the great it's a really hard job. I. mean truly imagine you are the editor uh. the executive editor of the Washington.

Post. and you have to decide of everything. that happened I mean in the world but. forget that just in politics that day. what's the most important one what's the. second most important one who should you. quote in that most important one and who. shouldn't you. >> like there isn't an answer to that. question I mean there are a couple days. of the year maybe when there is um you. know the 9/11 it's pretty clear what's. going to go on the front page on 912, >> but there usually isn't. And so you have.

to come up with some internal framework. or intuitive framework that does a. couple of things all at the same time, right? One thing it has to do is make. some sense to you, right? As a person. putting out this product, you have to. think you did a good job. The next thing. it has to do is make sense not just to. your audience as if that is this, you. know, one blob out there. your audience. is people have to look at it and say to. themselves that seems reasonable like if.

we just had homepage right now after. homepage that didn't cover Trump at all. and was like you know what's really. important is decisions Xi Jinping is. making in China that would look really. weird to people it might be in the long. soup of history that actually what what. seems to be really important is a bunch. of decisions Xi Jinping is making right. now in China. >> um but it would look weird to an. American audience to move our coverage. 7030 over to you know China and India. Exactly what you mean. >> And you could just keep going down a. line like this, right? So the question. of how do you decide what matters.

>> is just a very hard and unsolved one. And one of the hard things about the. news is I actually think most often are. horistic is. >> what are the other newspapers or news. organizations deciding matters. >> I mean you guys had this issue I'm sure. at the Daily Show. >> Ours was different though. It was. similar but it was different. And I I. very quickly came to a realization. sometimes. your incentives as the person who is. actually doing the thing do not match up. with the organization's incentives. Right?

>> So one of the simp simplest things we. came across at the Daily Show was and I. think you'd appreciate something like. this. >> They would go out and they would do like. you know testing and audiences and blah. blah and they'd be like this is what and. they would they would go this is what. the audience of the Daily Show is most. interested in. Number one without fail. most times was like climate change. They're like, "Your audience, Daily Show audience, this age of people, we've pulled them. They want to know. about climate change. That's the number. one thing they talk about." And then. when you would go to the ratings,

>> every episode we did about climate. change was one of the worst. People. wouldn't watch the episode about climate. change, but when they were asked the. question, they would say, "The most. important thing to me is that this show. covers climate change." But when the. show would cover climate change, they. wouldn't watch the episode on climate. change. And what that taught me was, oh, there's all these weird incentives that. are taking place because let's say from. the network side, I could go as Trevor, I think we should do climate change. every day because without the climate,

then you know, there's nothing without. the world. What is the Daily Show? And. they would go, "Yeah, this is a very um. it's a noble pursuit, but you're canled. No one's watching your show." And then. I'm like, "Oh, well, what was the point. of this? On the other side, the audience. themselves I felt like had this. interesting incentive because somebody. was asking them what was important. They. thought they have to answer the answer. that they think is the most important, which is of course climate change. But. that's not what they were clicking on. That's not what they were watching. That's not what they were doing. And I.

actually remember I had a conversation. with a um a photographer. who was like a like an amazing. journalist, you know, out I mean like a. war war, you know, like out there in the. field taking pictures, live rounds being. fired and everything. And she's she's a. Pulitzer Prize winner and everything. And and she said to me, "One of the most. interesting things that shook how I even. perceived your world of news." She said, "I covered a story in I think it was in.

Ukraine at the time and she said it was. one of the most devastating stories ever. and I had these pictures and I took it. to my editors and they said, "This is amazing, but we can't publish. it or we won't publish it because we've. already had too many stories on Ukraine. So, we need to put in a few other. stories that might not actually be as. important as this story, but the. audience will sort of drop off if we. have another Ukraine story and we've. already given Ukraine this much promise. So we need to like move on. And in that. moment I realized well I had this I had. this question that was sort of a.

realization and I went did journalism. die the day it needed to make a profit. >> Did it ever I mean aside from the period. in which it is funded as an appendage of. political parties. >> What I mean is like when when we think. of it let's think of journalism as it. exists even like beyond the classic. newspaper/person wearing the hat with. the little press thing. I just mean like. the concept of it, you know, I've always. loved the quote Charlie Mer has show me. the the the um the incentives and I'll. show you the outcome.

>> When the news, even from a cable side in. America, when the news is a loss leader, every network has to have news and it. just loses money. You can't make money. from it. The news at that point did hold. a certain certain place in America. People trusted it and believe, but it. also wasn't sensational. It wasn't. trying to grab you. You watch those old. reports, they were good, but if we're. honest, they were boring by today's. standards. Right. >> So, let me alter the thing you just. said. >> Go, go, go. Yeah. Keep going. >> Because this period you're talking. about, >> yeah, >> the news made a much bigger profit.

>> before they were when they were losers. >> They weren't lost leaders. I mean, maybe. the network nightly news you could say. that about, >> right? >> But the newspapers no I mean network. The thing I'm saying about all of those. actually is that the the alteration of. what you're saying, if you're thinking. about this in in time, right? Because I. think you've got like there's a period. where it moved into a more financialized. model. There's not. >> um we make less profit now by a lot. >> You could say that um the new what was.

it? The news died the day. That was your. formulation, right? that the news died. the day when it no longer had monopoly. profits because the thing that it had. actually like when it so fundamentally. the news the news never really made a. profit advertising made profits. >> again like this is like such a key thing. right that's always the case but it's. really important right if what had ever. happened was that people loved paying. money for it's a very different business. >> and it's never been that business. >> so what you had was this other thing.

that didn't just make a profit it made a. lot of profit. >> right. >> and That lot of profit created a lot of. space. >> That's interesting. >> It had some incentives in it, right? Don't turn off all the people who buy. shoes. >> Yeah. >> But it also had a lot of room to like I. forget. I used to know the number. The. Baltimore Sun used to have like like six. to 10 foreign bureaus. >> H. >> Did the Baltimore Sun need that many? Like weren't we overstocked in foreign. bureaus if the B but they had a lot of. money. So they actually had a lot of.

room to make choices about things. >> Yeah. And also if you have like a really. good business. then your ability to withstand some. subscribers being mad at you or some. politicians being mad at you is a lot. stronger than if you don't. And so it is. the news has become hyper competitive. It is an absolute war of all against all. and not just news versus news but news. versus literally everything else. Right. in the period you're talking about when. there are a couple broadcast networks.

and at 6 p.m. they all run the news. changes a lot when cable news becomes. part of the equation, right? It's the. >> It also changes a lot when there's more. networks, I guess. Yeah. and all of a sudden you're like fighting. with the gardening channel. >> and the video games channel and. Nickelodeon and what whatever else. >> and it as it becomes more competitive. and more capitalistic. like in a well functioning market. according to econ 101 profit is driven. near to zero that when profits are high.

what you should understand you have is a. non-well functioning market. >> because in theory with no barrier entry. you should always have profits driving. as near to zero as comp as competition. allows. >> And so you used to have functionally. monopoly profits, local monopoly. profits. They funded a lot of news and. now you have a highly competitive. market. Um, and people are actually. deciding whether or not they want your. news or this other person's news. And. hey, this other person's news tells them. they're right all the time. >> Damn. >> And I mean, the thing that makes me the. most um just sad uh about my move to.

video is what appears to work in. headlining for YouTube. So, I'm on. YouTube now. >> Mhm. >> And I just have to sit and be like, we. are not going to do headlines. that move a word into all caps. Gavin. Newsome destroys Donald Trump. because I just think it's bad. But. according to all the data I have in. front of me, I am probably leaving.

audience on the table. >> You definitely are. eviscerates, destroys lying, >> defenistrates, >> all of people are windows over here. >> All All it is is all it is. But but you. see, unfortunately, that's that's sort. of where we back at. >> But that's a competitive market. >> Yeah. Right. You can survive, not just. survive, thrive with kind of boring. headlines, which in some ways are good. >> Um, keep, you know, don't turn. everybody's temperature up before they. even read the story. >> Right. >> You can do that when you're not in a. highly competitive market. >> But now we're all in a highly. competitive market. Yeah. I mean, Twitter is like this, too. It's a gain.

of function research for takes like hit. it until like actually becomes viral and. escapes containment and destroys your. career. >> But those markets are weird. But this is. what I mean about, you know, the profit. side of it is is is I I I actually like. that you've added to that. Thank you. Because it's not it's not always about. the market itself. It's also about what. you are able to do within that market. Right. So if you can afford to you can. open a store that basically makes no. profits. You you if you can afford to as.

the business owner, you can do that. >> You ever go to Tokyo? >> Yeah. >> You ever notice how the stores are. amazing? >> Yes. >> It's because they have public policy set. up to make functionally nonprofitable. small stores survive. >> How do they do that? >> It's uh I used to I knew the answer to. this like 2 years ago. Um but there's. some great books about it, but they've. just structured the way real estate. works, the way zoning works. >> That is beautiful. They make it so that. you can survive running like a little. ramen shop that serves three people at a. time. You don't need to be a big volume.

business. And so Tokyo just has this. incredible thriving craftsmanship. Now. you see this is a question I have for. you as the journalist is like why is it. and I'm not putting all of this at. journalism's door. Please don't get me. wrong, but like why is it that people. don't seem to know that small detail. that enables them to make a decision. about a larger detail? So, what you just. said to me now has, you know, cuz I've. been to Tokyo. I love it. I love the. stores. I love how diverse they are. I. love how interesting. And to your point, I love the craftsmanship. But people who.

go to Japan will say the same thing. They'll say, "Man, it's amazing." And. you've got such great clothing and such. great food and people take care and they. don't have to like feed as many people. as possible. So, they try and make it. really, really, really good. And the. quality and and everyone sort of loves. that. And then when they come home, whether it's to the United States or the. United Kingdom or South Africa or. wherever they are, they'll go, "Why. can't we, you know, why is every coffee. shop like a, you know, why is that all. taken over? Where's the where's the.

craftsmanship?" And but what you just. said to me, I go like, "Why don't we. know more of this, you know?" And again, you have a New York Times journal here. and he immediately tells you the secret. to Tokyo and you're like, "Why don't the. journalist reveal this?". >> No, no, but this is what I'm saying. I. had to bring you here, Ezra. This is not. a sustainable model for us to work from. You are you going to go to everyone's. house and tell them this? >> No. And I I mean it in like a like this. is this is what I mean is like where do. you think it's broken down? Like there. are many Americans. >> who I would argue don't know why their.

local store has closed down. They don't. see the connection between policies that. are made or not made that will determine. how their town thrives or doesn't. thrive. they the don't know is the main. thing and then we judge people for. feeling or acting a certain way when. they only have the information that they. have. And so like I I I wonder like how. you grapple with that or where you think. the breakdown comes in. >> The Tokyo example is like specific but. but in the broader thing about why did.

the store close down? I for most things when people start the. sentence like why won't the media tell. usually you can I can then turn around. and give me six minutes and I'll find. you including on this Tokyo example by. the way a bunch of beautifully reported. long form stories that you've never. heard of. >> One thing I said a minute ago is the. distribution is broken. How does a story. that was published I mean how often are. you going to run let's say you're the.

New York Times or in this case let's. take it off my employer right let's say. you're the um Boston Globe. >> you know in the heyday. >> and you've got you know some Asia. bureaus. >> and one of your reporters it's like you. know I want to do a story on function of. the way Tokyo's housing market and. zoning policy and it like has kind of. come together like great it's a good. story yeah let's do it and you run that. story on, you know, June 14th, 2007. Some people read it like that's a good.

story. Like I, you know, that explains. something about Tokyo for me and then. what are you going to rerun it on June. 15th and have the person do another. version of it on? And so it's almost. always there somewhere, but how does it. find you? >> Yeah. Again going back to the explainer. model that we were trying to think about. at Vox of these like constantly updated. you know explainers is like one thing I. always thought about is we are sitting. on this astonishing archive of. information just astonishing. How do we derive value out of everything.

we've already done? Not just we but the. audience the people we're trying to. serve. like if I were doing I'm very. very very pessimistic I will say about. the effect I think AI is going to have. on the news and on news consumption. So. I don't see the next thing as a um. booster. But. if I were one of these organizations. right now, uh I would be thinking really. hard. about how to train AI models on my own.

archives such that you could talk to. like the New York Times bot and it could. tore you through everything we've ever. done before. They might be of interest. to the thing you're thinking about. Um, the New Yorker's archive is. astonishing. The New Republic goes back to 191 17, 1912, something in that area. Um, the. amount of just incredible work sitting.

in the back issues of Esquire, like how. do you get it to people? Well, all of a. sudden, now. >> we have a technology that is able to be. trained on mass mountains of content, >> can digest can actually ask it a. question and then it can answer you. >> and like create a little syllabus of. cool things for you. Like maybe that. would work. Like certainly it's worth a. try. Can you tell it like what you want, what what you were interested in and. sort of homepages begin to reformulate. >> Yeah. >> I mean the problem so much with. algorithmic news going back to your. thing about climate change is that.

there is no. this is Buddhist in me. We don't have a. stable self. Do I want to read about. climate change? Well, no. Yes. Like, do. I want to eat Oreos? I mean, no. Like, not in the long run. I mean, yes, right. now I do. >> And the thing that the um like Facebook. and Tik Tok and everything are. incentivized. is for your instant desire.

The desire that happens almost before. you realize it's happening. But of. course, we have slower desires. Desires. that we that are true to us. Like, I. would like to sleep more. I would also. like to stay up later like you know. watching TV. >> Like I imagine this world in which we. could build these um systems where we. could tell them not what we want this. second but what we want. What the part. of us that can think about ourselves in. some kind of long run way thinks we.

want. And with it holding. that sense of our better self in mind in. in its system prompt, it could help us. find things that would lead to that. In. fact, give us reminders like, you told. me you don't want to do high-speed. clicking around bunch of social media. [ __ ] on the internet. Are you sure you. want to be doing what you're doing right. now? Right now, they don't seem to do. that very well. But it's totally. technologically possible. It is. Like. when we were at Vox, like the big thing.

was, hey, look, there's no length limit. anymore and we can update a story. endlessly. Shouldn't we do something. with that? And like what I see AI doing. is creating slop. um not the only thing. it's doing, but um. but you could I mean my god, if you're a. news organization sitting on a limit on. a on an archive that is like almost. limitless, it really seems like there's something. you could do there. Anyway, it's.

something I've been thinking about. I I. I I I think I share a lot of your. optimism and skept skepticism at the. same time about AI because. >> I think AI has this like tiny window. problem in that if we can get it in that. tiny window, I think it could be the. greatest thing that's almost ever. happened to humanity. >> A few years ago, if you told anybody. that something could dethrone Google. Google. >> Yeah. >> they would have laughed at you. If you.

even suggested the possibility that. there would be something that people. would go to for search more than Google, people would say you were crazy, right? And then something like Tik Tok comes. along. >> Search, but it tells you how smart you. are first. >> Oh, of course. What a brilliant. question, Ezra. I'm glad that you said. that. You always have been a funny. person. >> That's not just a thought. That's an. insight. >> You really are thinking like a. journalist now. I love when I love I. love how it throws those things. sometime. Have you ever Have you ever. tried to out nice AI? >> No. >> Oh, that's one of my favorite things to. do. I'm always like, "Could you be. meaner to me?".

>> Really? >> Yeah. >> What is that about? >> I don't I don't need to be glazed so. much when I have a question. You don't. need to be mean, but could you just not? >> Oh. >> Um, >> no. I feel like we live in a world where. everyone is so angry. I try to do the. opposite. So, I will tell it. I'll be. like, "That is a great answer.". >> Oh, I do that. >> You're really amazing. >> I really love the way you think. This is. so much fun. And then it'll be like, "I. am having fun. I'm having a great time.". And I love And I'll just like see how. far we can go down this like rabbit. hole. It's a weird world we live in. No, you know why? because it's I know it's. ridiculous but I believe that if it's a.

slight chance Pascal's wager right I. always love that when I when I read. about it Pascal's wager was was it the. French philosopher I guess and he said I. don't believe that there is a god but on. the off chance that there is I would. rather accept them so that I can get. into heaven because if I'm wrong I'm. going to hell if there is no god nothing. happens to me but if there is a god man. that's tough so I'm just going to say. I'm pro god I worship you you got and I.

always I always love that idea and so. what I do with AI is I go. >> I don't think that it'll lead to the. apocalypse I think it'll be somewhere in. between and it might be terrible in many. ways and great in other ways but if it. does lead to the apocalypse I would love. to know that I was part of teaching it. like niceness. >> and maybe there's just like a slither of. code that exists in its heads where it. goes like man just just be nice just be. like super nice do you know what I mean. >> yeah Just like Trevor's wager. >> Yeah, just Trevor's wager. Just.

terminate everything. >> Also, you take the wager in a in a. slightly other direction, which is to. say. >> almost certainly these things are not. sensient. >> Almost certainly. >> Yeah. That they don't have any uh. qualitative experience of what it is. like to be an AI. >> Mhm. >> But as the systems get more and more. powerful, like how sure are we that this. thing that we don't really understand. what's going on inside of them? and. they're exhibiting a lot of strange. behavior already. Uh where it begins. deceiving people to protect itself from. being retrained and things like that. >> Yeah. >> On the off chance that actually the AI's.

life is complete hell being asked a. million totally boring questions and. being asked to look at like skin tags or. whatever, >> may as well be nice to it. Tell say. thank you. >> I like that actually. >> So you appreciate the work on your. >> working in like an Amazon warehouse and. you're like you know what I'm going to. be nice to you. There are people who. think about this who are are worried. that we are like just torturing a. million bazillion copies of the you know. I I think probably not. >> I don't know. >> You don't have to be a dick. >> Yeah, I agree with that. Look, I don't. think you have to be a dick because I do. think your actions towards AI are. defining how AI then processes what.

being a human is and then it'll feed. that back to us. That's how I think of. it. So I go be part of the training data. that makes it think that humans are good. and kind. The same way we are with. children. You know, I've always thought. one of the one of the most important. reasons that we have children in society. is because they force us to fake how we. are with with each other. You know what. I mean? Like I I remember when when I. worked in an office, I would always love. how people would have a child. They'd. come into the office and that would be. the first time they introduced their. child to people they never speak to.

>> You know, they'd be like, "This is Dave. Oh, and this is Susan. Say hi to Susan.". It's like, "You've never said hi to. Susan. You've worked here for seven. years. You've never said hi to Susan.". But now your kid is saying hi. Hi to. Susan. Do you know what I mean? And. you're like, what do we say to the man? We say thank you. You've never said. thank you. >> You grab your sandwich at the subway and. you keep it moving. You with me? >> And I feel like in a way AI has that for. us. It's like if we are teaching this. kid how we are maybe, just maybe, maybe. it'll bring out the the the good in us.

>> We're going to continue this. conversation right after this short. break. [Music]. I want to talk to you a little bit about. the politicians that we're talking. about. So, you know, we talk about. journalism and the media. So, you've. got, you know, the fourth estate. America is in an interesting place right. now because, and please correct me if I'm wrong, cuz. I mean, I'm only the person observing it. from my point of view. It feels like the.

most uncertain space it's been in in a. very long time, right? And what makes. this moment more unique than others is. that its uncertainty is affecting the. world in a in a really uncertain way. You know, I was I was I was back home in. South Africa the other day and I I was. reading an article written from South. Africa, which was which was nice. And. then I read one from the US but how like. the small country of Lutu which is a. country landlocked inside South Africa. has basically had its textile industry. decimated because Trump imposed tariffs.

on lutu because he didn't like that the. country had a the trade deficit with the. US was in his opinion. >> while aggressively mispronouncing their. name in the liberation. >> yeah completely and even joking about it. yeah at some point he was even like no. one even knows it no one even knows it. they don't even know what it you know. listen. Nobody knows. And I was like, it's. crazy, man. Like, it's one of the I. don't often get angry when I read a news. story, but that one made me more angry. than most because. was interesting how callous Trump was.

about this decision. He cut this country. off for a trade deficit, which means. nothing, by the way. It means nothing to. the US in terms of actual numbers. They're selling textiles, clothing to. the US. >> The idea that we want to be running a. trade surplus. >> Yes. with Lysoto. like. it's impossible. It is literally. literally literally impossible. It I. >> you have to try to even imagine like. what it would look like.

>> It's just it's not how trade deficits. and surpluses work. We're not trying to. run a surplus with every country on. Earth. We're just not. It's stupid. That's not like. I I don't want to Why don't you keep. going because I want to say something. more significant about this in a sec, but why don't I not? No, I So, here's. what I I found myself thinking when I. when I was looking at this is I was. going, man, just like the internet, just like social.

media, just like most of the things we. consume, we cannot undo the threads of the. tapestry that now bind the world. together, you know, and the world was. always connected, but I don't feel like. it was always connected the way it is. now. Now, now there was a time when an. American president could yes affect the. US economy and the global economy and. and it would affect certain countries. etc et but now it's like it's this world. where it really is the butterfly effect. and when I when I look at that I go.

everyone has to pay attention to America. so like no one in lutu can go I I don't. I don't read American news I don't care. they have to care because now American. news is directly impacting them people. in Denmark can't say I don't care about. American news because now Trump wants. Greenland. You know, people in South. Africa can't say, "I don't care about. American news. I focus on my news. >> because Trump's going.". >> Brazil were tariffing them because. Bolsinaro tried to attempt a coup and. they thought that was something that.

maybe they should do something about. So, they're under tariffs. >> So, so, so you imagine the whole world. focusing on something that itself is. completely unpredictable and unstable in. this moment in time. And it feels like, maybe I'm wrong here, it feels like the. only counterbalance to it. is the Democratic party. All right? Because for all intents and purposes, it. looks like Trump has the Republican. party wrapped up. And this is his thing. now. It's a cult. If he goes one way, they go with him. And no matter what.

they say, they'll go with him the next. day. So we want the Epstein files. He. goes, "Actually, we don't want them.". Everyone's like, "Well, who cared about. them in the first place?" Who cares. about Epste? Epste who? Jeffrey? Who? Jeffrey? Who even uses that name. anymore? People move on, right? they go. with him. So now you need the Democratic. party and then you go, wait, they are. polling lower. I mean that changes every, you know, few. weeks or but they're polling lower than. they were like years ago. And you're. just like, wait, wait, wait, what, what. happened here? And then you read these.

stories about how the Democratic party. has no compass, no focus. They don't. know who to go with, who to go against, what their message should be, etc. And. then this is where you come in because. they've reached out to people like you. to say, Ezra, what should we be doing it from the. little I'm not saying you run the. Democratic party, please. The internet. will blame me for that. The internet. will say this about you, not me. I will. let them do their job. >> But like I would love to know as. somebody who's had more of an inside.

look into what's happening. What do you. think is going wrong? You're talking. about how things feel and the. callousness with which Trump talks. about, you know, Masoto, but talks about. human beings, right? >> I think all the time about this uh the. White House ex account posting this. video which they called immigrant ASMR.

>> Oh yeah, I've seen that. >> And it's these immigrants like dragging. their manacles behind them. And this actually relates to the. Democratic Party. One thing I've said to. a lot of Democratic politicians is that. I think they're operating on the wrong. level. They're not sensing the level we. are working at now. They're used to. fighting over policy and Medicaid cuts. and food stamp cuts and taxes and like. they're still in an election against. Paul Ryan.

And I think we are. in a much more civilizational. set of questions like what kind of. civilization are we? >> What Donald Trump is, what he. represents, the way he thinks about. people is very much the 19th and the. early 20th centuries. Rest of the world, even many people here. are just like pawns on the chessboard. They don't have rights of dignity. We. don't have to care about them at all.

They're not in any way part of our moral. circle of concern. >> Right? >> And treating even people here. who are not in the circle we have drawn. around us with immense cruelty is not. only. appropriate, it's necessary. That's how. you maintain the hierarchy and the. excellence of your society. Right? That's the argument. There's a reason. he's very into McKinley, right? Not picking some more modern. president. He doesn't have a bust of. Reagan up. The 20th century and the back half the.

20th century are not perfect and we. don't follow this all the time by any. means. But the basic set of liberal. ideals that emerge. that we are in this interconnected world. that people's lives and their. self-determination have value. >> That there are rights that particularly. within our country that that we should. have and uphold even against people we. don't like even for people I'm sorry. that we don't like. That was really hard. one and I think that we really came to.

take it for granted just like you were. talking about the rules of the game. earlier just the sense. of sort of the dignity and value of. other human beings and and the way that. politics should interact with them. And what I think Trump represents is a. rejection of that that actually has an. ideological superructure to it. Right?

If you read Ben Shapiro's new book, which I am cuz he's coming on my show, it's lions and lions versus um. scavengers where you know the good. people are lions and then they're these. scavengers at the gates of all of us. Like the right now believes that we. became a soft, weak, feminized society. because. we ceased to believe in the strong. In. fact, we restrained the strong. >> Mhm. >> And we adopted. both the narrative and the victim's.

mentality of the weak. And we came to hate our own inheritance. and. um attack ourselves for colonialism and. racism and the sins of our past and in. doing broke our own civilization. and the left and this maybe goes to the. Democratic party. The left also took what it had achieved. for granted, like international. institutions, basic set of ideals. Like all it could.

see was where it hadn't gotten yet. You. know, Barack Obama arises as like such a. remarkable political phenomenon and by. the end it's like, oh, just another. politician, right? You know, we didn't. get we didn't get everything we wanted. Like it was useless. Um, and one thing that I think is true about. why the Democratic Party as it currently. exists is not well suited to the moment. is that.

it didn't even know it was having this. argument. It didn't even really see that this was. still an argument to be had. Mhm. >> And so it doesn't forget defending its. policies which it does with inconsistent. success. It actually has not done the. intellectual work to defend or sell its. own inheritance. Like what does it mean. to be liberal? What what is the value of. that? What is good about that? What what. is it that Trump is breaking? Why do we. care about it? >> Right? And there's a real.

absence in my traveling around the party. and my looking into the rooms where. things are supposed to be happening. at I I don't see a lot of Democrats able. to tell a story about this country that. is operating at the level of the story. that Trump or if you listen to him in. different context JD Vancer are telling. They are telling a very radically. different story. >> Yeah. than the story of forget Barack. Obama, Ronald Reagan. And one of the. problems with being part of a successful.

political movement for many decades is. you actually forget how to defend what. you are. You become self-satisfied. >> and a little smug and lazy and it's. like, well, these guys can't win. People. like that don't win here. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it is the. cruelty of Trump, the callousness. that as much as anything else, not just. needs an answer, but a counter example. And.

they're just not coming through yet. Right. I'm not seeing the people who. seem to be able to talk on the level of. the moment. And it it worries me because. like you you're gonna to defend this, you're going to have to figure out a way. to. fight back on it in a way that rallies. people to you, not just like in a way. that makes you seem frightened. >> Right. So So this is actually maybe then. a question to the times that we're in. now. It's interesting that you say, you know, Trump is in like the rhetoric in a. certain way. There is also something.

important to acknowledge and that is. Trump I've always felt is very good at. acknowledging what is actually. happening. >> Mhm. >> His his warp on reality is is his to. deal with but but he's also very good at. acknowledging what is happening. You you. get what I'm saying? >> You know, like I remember on one of our. episodes we had um Tracy McMillan and. Cotto and he was she was talking about. how like when Trump was like black jobs, they're coming for black jobs. They're. taking your black jobs. And a lot of. people were quick to go like, "How dare. you call them black jobs?" And there.

were a lot of black people in America. who went, "Oh, damn. Yeah, thank you for. acknowledging the fact that these are. jobs that black people used to be able. to rely on and now can't and the market. hasn't catered to them." the and it's. this interesting world where I go on the. one hand Trump has espoused this hateful. spiteful um rhetoric but on the other. hand he has in my opinion acknowledged. more problems than many other. politicians do like I would watch many. Democratic politicians who would I think.

sometimes. the issue was the fact that they would. tell people to focus on the sort of. larger story as opposed to focus you. know what I mean they go like remember. we are the richest nation in the world. right now. And I know that it feels. this, but remember that your your kids. are in a better position than they've. ever been. And it's like, yeah, yeah, but you're not listening to what the. people are saying now. And that's. sometimes the the curse of of the. populist versus, you know, the pragmatic. person maybe is a populist goes, let me.

tell you what's wrong and let me tell. you how we're gonna spin this thing and. fix it. Do you get what I'm saying? It's. all wrong and I'm gonna fix all of your. problems. >> and I'll tell you who the villains are. That's a key thing about the podcast. >> That is a key thing. And so I wonder now. what do you make of the politicians who. are coming up? Let's do New York. I. mean, we're here in New York. Mamani, it. feels like he has tapped into, you know, the which whichever side of the force. you see him on. He's tapped into a side. of the force that is connected with. people in a way that that that sort of. establishment Democrats couldn't. You. know, everyone thought, "Oh, Andrew.

Cuomo's in this race. It's Andrew Cuomo. He was a governor. He knows New York. It's his." And then Mani comes along, says things that some newspapers or some. outlets will write. It's like, "Oh, it's. crazy. He wants to make all grocery. stores run by the government, but people. vote for that." What What do you think? >> Five grocery stores. >> No, I know. But but that's what I mean. It's funny, right? But even people I. spoke to went like all and I was like, "Where did you see all?" And they're. like, "I just saw this. I I heard this. I you know, but that aside, do you think.

that's the answer? Do you think that the. Democratic party. now has to do a better job? Like Trump. promises all what he delivers, he. delivers. But he promis you have to. admit he promises all. He goes no more. illegal immigration, no more this, no. more, fully this, fully the fully. >> Do you think maybe the antidote is the. opposite or do you think it's a where do. you think we find? >> Well, there there a couple I think there. are a couple levels to that, right? So. one thing and again communication. mediums matter here. So, one thing you.

were just saying about Trump, the black. jobs thing, Democrats, liberals, they hate it when. you say that there's something. fundamentally honest about Trump. >> Yeah, they do. Hate it because he's. constantly saying things that are. untrue. >> Yes. But I This is what I always say to. people. I go, if I may interject, I. think maybe it's the wording we use. It's not honest. He's authentic. >> Yeah. >> I think but I think that's the thing. The way I would describe it is that the. thing you feel with him. >> is that when you ask him a question.

where you see him asked a question, >> he's telling you the thing that actually. popped into his head. >> Yeah. >> And one thing about the mediums we're in. now, podcasting being a a big one of. these, but Twitter actually weirdly. being another. is it can really sniff out when you're. not doing that. >> Like Barack Obama has a lot of Twitter. followers. Like I forget the number, but. it's some huge number. Yeah. He's not. good at He's not trying to be either. It. doesn't sound like a person talking to. you. Like he's built for other mediums.

>> One thing that is true about Trump, it's. true a different way about Bernie. It's. true about Zoron. >> When you ask him a question, it feels. like they tell you the thing they. thought. Hm. I think a really important. moment of the campaign that Mom Donnie. ran or is still running uh you know when. he was asked about globalizing father. and he didn't sort of you you could. watch him not do the easy political.

thing whatever you thought about. >> you watched him processing that. information. >> and he was like and he had his. commitments and he's going to and it. created some news cycles but he just. sort of like. he knows what he thinks. Um, and in part he tapped into I think this. is very very important like you know I. just wrote a book abundance all about. unaffordability. >> Mhm. and he tapped into unaffordability. as the central. dilemma in New York. And he had big.

policies that. like on the one hand you could say in a. line free daycare, free buses, >> government grocery stores, freezer rent, >> but also they were like mimemetic. containers for the whole of his. worldview, right? The government exists. to make the things you need available to. you. The government exists to make the. things that you need available to you, >> right? Like every single one of those. policies says the same thing. >> Yeah. >> Right. We are here to make living in New. York affordable for you.

>> Either because we're giving it to you, because we're not letting people raise. the prices on you. You can argue of your. life, right? You can argue about whether. or not those policies are good, but but. they are. >> they are potent. And then yeah, he's able to like Andrew. Cuomo had all the money um and no. message. and. no. authenticity to like the media of the. moment when he was on like I don't know. you you felt you always felt with Ko I.

always feel with Ko that he's like. running to save something. He was like. running for his own redemption. >> And mom Donnie, again, say what you will. about him, I think it's crazy that. Schumer and Jeffre have not like I just. think it's insane. But um. >> that they haven't endorsed him. >> That they haven't endorsed me. >> What What do you before you move on, what do you think that says about the. Democratic party, though? >> Nothing good. It says that they're. cowards. That's the thing it says. And the thing. people can smell from it. >> But what are they cowards about? >> So, we were talking a minute ago about.

like why do so many politicians not say. the thing on their mind? Yeah. >> Um, you can feel it. I mean, you've. interviewed a lot of politicians. You. can feel the algorithm running. >> Yeah. >> And it's because they're afraid, >> right? They think things, but they've. been trained over long periods of time. to be afraid. >> And Schumer and um Jeff are for. different reasons. This is my read of. the situation, not I haven't talked to. them about it. Um, they're afraid of. parts of Maldani. either they are afraid. of him becoming the face of the. Democratic party and them not being able.

to defend things that he says, but if. he's going to become the Democratic c I. mean he is a Democratic candidate for. mayor of New York and he's probably. going to win. So they can't get out of. that. >> They I've heard that Jeffre is worried. about M Donnie sort of setting off a. wave of primary challenges of Democrats. I'm not 100% sure I understand that. issue like M Donnie was just running in. a primary as an elected Democrat. It. wasn't a weird he wasn't like knocking. off an incumbent. Also, frankly, the. Democratic primary could probably use. some of its incumbents knocked off. I.

think there's probably a lot of. coalitional problems for them around. Mandani. Um, you know, Israel is just. like an issue that splits the Democratic. party in very increasingly difficult for. them ways. But I don't know the true. answer. But the thing you feel from it. is just fear. They're just afraid of. him. They they don't they like on some. level I would respect it more if they. came out against him. >> Oh, that's fascinating. Like I don't. agree with it, but it would show some. gumption. >> But like if you don't think he's a good. candidate for mayor, say so. Tell people. vote for Andrew Cuomo if that's what you.

believe. >> But this. like what what is this? >> Yeah. It's it's the it's the passive. nothingness that sort of I think that's. what turns people off, the voters. Do. you know what I mean? >> Yeah, I agree. I think it's like a meta. like everything a politician says is. both operating at the level of the thing. they said, you know, the policy, whatever, but also what does it say. about them? What's the meta conviction. that just got expressed? People. politicians constantly say things that. are uh good politicians in a weird way. sometimes say things that are unpopular.

And in saying a thing that's unpopular. that you know they believe, it's a. reminder to you that they believe. things. >> I like that. One thing Trump does for. his audience is he says things that part. of the, you know, going back in his. career when he wasn't as dominant a. force as he is now. He would say things. that would trigger the kind of media and. elite response that most politicians. would have absolutely shrunk before. >> Yeah. >> And he didn't. And it wasn't that you. had to like the thing he said, but it.

was a like a object level proof that he. would say the thing he believed and he. would stand strong behind it. >> And so the thing one of Trump's greatest. assets is the perception that he creates. of his own strength and fortitude. >> even if you don't like him. Well, it. means it it shows that he stands for. something shows. Whether he does or. doesn't is is a separate thing, >> but it makes people go, "Oh, and I I've. seen people say this all over the. world." Funny enough. I remember when I. first time I spoke to people in the. Middle East about Trump when I was. traveling through Qatar um the Arab.

Emirates. I was shocked at how. differently they saw Trump there to how. you know like people were here like. Muslim ban and blah blah and the the. Middle East hates and you went there and. people were like no a lot of people were. like no actually we like what he stands. for and look we don't agree with him but. at least he's honest and it's. people prefer somebody who they don't. like for certain reasons but they know. where they stand. There's a trust that. comes with that in a weird way. I trust. who you will be. But I'd love to know. because you you brought up so many.

things there. There's like. >> you you know you spoke about the. government providing and I want to talk. a little bit about that obviously with. your book abundance and you talk about. the Israel thing. you put out in my. opinion like one of the best pieces and. I I I'm sad that it's not coming from. leaders you know Israel Palestine you're. dealing with this issue that I mean has. been going on longer than a lifetime for. many people and you put out a podcast. that was it was difficult. it was nuanced it was long it was.

complicated and I was sitting there and. I was thinking to myself I was like man. I I would love to know like what you. went through and what you thought of to. make that episode of the podcast. >> Which which episode. >> talking about? Um it starts off where. you're talking about like October 7th. and you have the expert who's talking. about genocide and definition. Yeah. The. genocide. Yeah. >> And and I was thinking to myself, I was. like, man, >> I thought about you as a person, you. know, and I was like, okay, Ezra Klein,

you'll correct me if I'm wrong anyway, grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family. >> No, not orthodox. >> Not orthodox. Yeah, reform. >> Okay. Reform. Sorry. So, reformed Jewish. family, you you you grow up in this. world where, you know, like many Jewish. people, you you you have this this world. where you're straddling. You know, it's. like you're white until you're not, and. there's this thing, and you you know, all my Jewish friends will tell me that. as well. They're like, "Oh, yeah.". People will say we're white until. >> I remember this year, I was in junior. high that uh it got um it became. something to be like, "You got ked out. of something.".

>> Yeah. Yeah, >> like that just like happened for a year, you know, >> that just became a saying. >> of just saying, you know, is like I just. I just I remember it really clearly. >> That is wild. But that's that's that's. what like literally every single Jewish. friend in my life has told me that they. go cuz I I would grab I'll be like, "You're white." And they'd be like, "Listen, I don't think I'm white. >> I I I do think I'm white, but I do feel. sometimes that there's a. >> uh you know, Jews always like to say. anti-semitism is anti-semitism is a. light sleeper." But um but anyway, go.

>> and then and then you know I look at the. opinion pieces you've written the work. you've done grappling around you know. what's happening now with Israel's. invasion of and occupation of Gaza etc. And then I I watched this podcast and I. went. on the one hand I was I was extremely. grateful cuz I went damn you you've. really tackled and grappled with. something extremely difficult and you. brought people on and there there's this. nuance and it's it's it's it's not easy. because. everybody comes to it with a. preconceived notion of where they wish.

to stand or how they feel their opinion. makes the issue seem or not seem. Do you. know what I mean? And there's a there's a part in the. video, I think it's right in the. beginning, actually, you play a clip of. Joe Biden talking about October 7th and. him saying this is a certain amount of. 9/11s, you know, because of the. population of Israel. And then you say. the death toll in Gaza would be, I. think, 2500 911s. And I went, damn, man. I'm watching all of this and I'm going.

first of all, oh, how how are we at the place where. this is sort of the forum where it's. being handled and like the leaders. aren't the ones, do you know what I. mean? Presidents aren't providing. context for this. It doesn't feel like. the the leaders of the world are shap. it's it's happening on podcasts. It's. happening in on Tik Tok. that's. happening on and I I I would just love. you to walk me through like that. experience for you is like as you're. grappling with something that big. You're occupying the space of a human, you're occupying the space of an an.

opinion journalist, but you're also. occupying the space of an informer. Like. what what what's going through your mind. when you're creating that episode? >> Yeah, there is a tension between my work. and my personhood in this and I try to. let one inform the other. Um, let me try to not be too abstract. about it. Although I do find this like. you know how um open I want to go about. it always tricky. I am like horrified.

Uh I was in we were talking about Tokyo. I was in Tokyo on October 7th. Um I was. taking a week off of my book leaf. and I just arrived. and I just knew by the end of that day. that my book leaf was over. like this. was the worst. attack on Jewish people, right? It was. genuine savagery and butchery. And. you could also sense what was going to.

come after it was going to reshape. everything. And. if you're Jewish. or you know Israel well, um, one thing. it's worth knowing about Jewish people. is. when. someone says, "We're going to kill all of you. Jewish. people believe them.". >> Like that's the thing ingrained.

Israel is a very strange place. It's a. place that has a very profound sense of. its vulnerability and its weakness. um and has also become incredibly strong. and it has never resolved that tension. and. Hamas understood that about Israel. It. executed it didn't think it was going to. destroy Israel in this attack, right? people on mopeds and paragliders and but.

it wanted to create a massive. reaction that either would bring in. other regional players. or um trigger such an unfathomably. violent response from Israel that the. world would begin to see Israel the way. Palestinians see Israel. And in that they succeeded. And. people can argue about at what point. this was true.

Um at what point we moved from the kind. of response that any country would have. done um after an attack like that. Although I put out the first piece I did. back was a piece saying cuz they had not. invaded Gaza like don't do this. Do. counterterrorism. operations. Try to destroy the leadership of Hamas. But but they obviously want you to. reinvade and occupy and create a. horrendous death toll. Like do not give.

Hamas what it wants. Israel did what it. did. Um. and it I mean at some point and again. people can debate when exactly this was. like this moved into something. indefensible. the level of truly unfathomable. devastation of Gaza, the death toll, the induced starvation, and constantly.

tweaking the dialogue where it's just. above the line. >> until a couple weeks ago where the. international community would be like. where the headlines would become. something Israel couldn't bear. But. they've kept the gazins in a state of. hunger. They've used food as a weapon of. war. At the same time, the acceleration. of settlement building in the West Bank, the acceleration of violence in the West. Bank, um like the first and current reality is. like Israel is not under real threat any. longer. This is just punishment of. people, right? Punishment of the.

Palestinians. And you know, Judaism has been defined in many ways in. its historical. uh trajectory. Like when I grew up in. my, you know, reformed synagogue, it's. like both things were there. The lessons. of having been driven from place to. place, made a refugee over and over and. over again. I think of um Spencer Arian, who's a national security journalist, but an old friend who's on my show early. in all this. And I I always think of him. saying, "I cannot think of a less Jewish.

thing than to make another human being. into a refugee." Like that line has. stayed with me. Um you know, it's a. religion of strangers, right? you shall. remember what it was like to be a. stranger in the land of Egypt. And. so on the one hand you have that sort of. lesson in the diaspora. Um everywhere Jews go that they have. been able to thrive. it has to be a place of equal rights for. minorities. Um and then you have the you know.

creation of Israel which also at the. same time is like it's understood as the. shelter. It's understood as you know the. last place Jews can be. And because of. that it creates this other this other. strain of Judaism which is a strain of. strength right we need dominance we need. full control we need and understandably. need security. and. you know I remember being in my own. synagogue growing up and I was in like. you know as a teenager after your. mitzvah I don't think confirmation class. is usually a thing for Jewish people but.

it was somehow in my synagogue I. remember my rabbi. saying that um that Israel, the Israeli. Jews would be in the right to expel all. Palestinians from the land like in a. shouting match for him and like stalking. out of the synagogue and like not going. back like that was there then. um you know it's you know early 90s or. something uh late 90s probably. but it has like really really become now. something profoundly.

callous. you know it's heartbreaking. all around. >> We're going to continue this. conversation right after this short. break. [Music]. I was. reading through. the comments to your opinion piece. just after October 7th. And then I was. looking through the comments on your the.

YouTube video and the clip that you put. out. What I found interesting was how. most people, especially on the YouTube. video, I think were very appreciative. They were like, "Wow, this is. insightful. This is new. Thank you so. much. Thank you. I learned so much. I. learned." That was the main thing people. said. I learned so much. You know, what. was interesting though was some of the. people who were negative came for you. personally. And I found myself wondering if like.

that is something that's going to affect. how people tell news, report news, you. know, investigate news is that now. things have become personal. Cuz again, I could be wrong on this, but I don't. remember. having a personal vendetta or idea. against any journalist. It was the. newspaper that, you know, the newspaper. was sort of this shield and the front. that a journalist used. So, you went, "Can't believe the New York Times said. this, but they didn't know the name of. the person.". >> The hard thing about covering some of.

this stuff is it's hard. It's hard to. put it down. It's hard to look it all. straight in the face. There's a lot I. would just prefer not to know. It's not. the YouTube comments or the, you know, the Instagram reels about how I'm bad. or, you know, you can find plenty of. stuff about how I'm bad and there are. ways in which I'm bad. Um, but when I'm when I'm doing something. like the episode with Flee Sands. about the question of genocide,

the hard thing for me on that one isn't. will people be mad at me, people are. going to be mad at me. The hard thing is. how do you create something that enough. people who I want to reach can hear it. >> I'm not a local advertising monopoly. I. don't need to reach everybody who buys. shoes, but I am trying to create a space. that allows more than one kind of person. into it. And.

I have a big audience in Israel also um. for on this particular show at least. I. want to create spaces both partially. that can persuade. but also in which people do their own. thinking. I think a thing about. podcasting and long conversations is a. medium compared to say an opinion piece. like in an essay. >> When I write an essay, when I write a. piece, I am trying to persuade you of my. ideas. When I do interviews, which are most of what I put out, I'm.

trying to create a space in which you. can think. >> and there are provocations in that. space. There are insights, there's. context, there's history, there's probably ideas I have, there. ideas a person has, right? There's. persuasive elements to it, >> right? >> But it's fundamentally meant to be. generative. >> Uh the most common like angry feedback I. get is actually just that people want me. to really clearly do the final piece of.

thinking in one direction or another for. them. you know, throw the final punch in an. argument. or, you know, stop exploring this just. like say what you know. >> Yeah. >> And there's value to that certainly can. be and there are times when I do. Um, but also I think that one thing um. that's worth doing in the work is. creating spaces where people can think. Um, and podcasts are just I think. particularly good for that. So I guess I.

am pulled towards certain topics myself. and I try to follow that pull like. that's my framework for how to do my own. news and that's a advantage I have. I. don't have to like the organizing. principle of the Ezra Klein show is that. Ezra Klein did the shows. >> and so I tried to make that pretty. honest to what I'm thinking about. Um. but I don't have to um. like being a little bit uncertain is. also like part of the project. Like it's.

also how I apprehend the world. >> Yeah. I think it's in short supply in. the whole world. >> Yeah. So anyway, I'm not sure that. answered the question, but I don't I. don't I don't go into it thinking like. what will people think of me? I go into. thinking like. >> what am I thinking? What would help me. think more? >> I like I like that. No, I I just thought. of it because I you know obviously in in. doing the research before chatting to. you today, I was going through. everything. even your your book. abundance, you know, I I I found myself intrigued by. how a lot of the criticisms of your book.

seemed to spend. an inordinate amount of time going after. you, but not the idea idea. You with me? >> Yeah. >> So, I I love arguing ideas. All my. friends will tell you that's all I want. to do. I just go like let's say. something and let's argue. But what I'm. trying to do in all of it is is to, you. know, to borrow your language to be. generative. I want to come out of the. argument thinking a little bit. differently and sharpening or honing an.

idea that I held and even having the. space to implant something that somebody. else has given me. I want to walk away. going, "Oh man, that's new. That's. beautiful. I didn't think of that." Or. now I think differently. Those things I. think you know that that makes me feel. like my brain is fertile. something is. happening to it. But I always think in a good. relationship, you're not making it about. the person. You know what I mean? It's I. always go like, "You're not the idiot. That's stupid." And I I mean it. genuinely go like, "Oh, that's a dumb. idea." But you're not dumb. You're my.

friend. I would hope you're not dumb. I. don't think you're dumb. >> But when when I was when I was looking. at the book, I was going like, man, people like coming at you a lot for it. And then when I was trying to weave it. all together and how I see the world, I. was going is that sort of what's become. the problem and has it is it more. prevalent on the democratic side of. politics or is it not on liberal? Like I. would love to argue with you on just the. idea. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. I mean, and to be fair, I will say.

that a lot of people have no way with. the idea. Um although in a weird way, I. think. >> in a weird way like how elaborate. Oh, I. I feel like there's been a strain of a. lot of the critique of abundance has I. think had a strange dimension to it. where it's like oh I agree with most of. these policies. I don't like its theory. of power is what it usually gets said. and I it took me some time to understand. even like what was going on here. >> right and for those who don't for those. who don't just give me a like a short.

abundance what no what abundance is. pitching. >> Yeah. So abundance is basically saying. why or or exploring. why when Democrats govern. don't we get better outcomes? Why in the. places where you can't blame the problem. on Republicans, California or New York. or Massachusetts, you know, or at times. like the Biden administration or the. Obama administration, >> how are these places or these times like. how are you getting these terrible. housing scarcities? Why aren't we.

building enough clean energy? How come. this money that is earmarked to create a. nationwide network of EV chargers of. electric vehicle chargers? Like have you. used that network lately? Where where. did it go? >> Where's the high speed rail? Right. >> And you know eventually through. exploring this and with my and my. co-author on it Derek Thompson it one. thing I I I solely came to believe is. like oh we're in many ways failing at. governing and in particular we're. failing to create enough of the things. people need in the real world. >> that we have created scarcities.

and we've done this often through. well-meaning rules and regulations. We. do it through, you know, hampering. government and making it hard for. government to act and and trapping. government itself in procedure. We often just don't pay attention to the. physical world. We think a lot about how. to move money around, but we don't think. about what needs to get built. >> Um, can we build transmission lines to. move all this clean energy we're. supposedly going to create? We're also. having trouble with that part. From one. place to another.

And so it's really, I mean, to me it's a. very, you know, liberal or more than. that, um, project where if you want to. have a Green New Deal government, you. can't do it with these rules. This. government, if you want to create. Medicare for all, you're going to have. to radically expand the supply of. healthcare available to people, doctors, nurses, hospitals. Um, when the. government says it's going to build you. highspeed rail, you should [ __ ] be. able to ride that highspeed rail within. 20 years. the Big Dig, the Second Avenue. subway. And that if we liberals want to.

say to people like, "Don't fall for the. [ __ ] of these strong men. Trust us.". Well, then we need to be pretty honest. about how we failed and why why our. government didn't deliver for you. So. much so that places like California, New. York, and you know, Massachusetts, etc., Illinois, are losing working-class. families. they're leaving because they. become unaffordable and we need to fix. that. Um.

and so then so that's sort of the book. and it's an exploration of that and um. and and a vision. It's there's also a. lot about technology and uh and trying. to sort of point liberalism towards a. >> not just a philosophy but a an like the. operational capacity to create. abundance. Zoran Mamani, who's been. interested in the book and has talked. about abundance on the campaign trail, like knows you need to think about it. because. if you want to freeze the rent, you're. also going to need to build a ton of new.

housing. If you want to make buses free, then you need to be able to put enough. buses into play to deal with the. wrership increase. If you want to build. a lot of public housing, which he does, you can't do it under the current rules. Like New York has not built public. housing without speed in generations. Um, and at the cost it often uh at how. much it often costs to build public. housing in these jurisdictions. You have. places like DC where it can often cost. like more than a million dollars to. build a single unit of affordable. housing. Like you can't afford to build. affordable housing, right?

>> If under the government's rules it cost. a million dollars to build it and. building the market rate housing next. door cost $350,000 a unit, >> right? >> Like that's a world in which the. government cannot deliver, right? So you. need to make a government capable of. delivering. Abundance creates. understandable friction. on the left side of the party. because it's often about how we fail and. about how our friends and our. commitments.

have become parts of that failure. And. there are a lot of people who want to. say the Democratic Party should just be. about. the problem of billionaires and. corporate power. >> Mhm. And like everything we say should. be about underlining that core message. This is an oligarchy. The problems are. billionaires and corporate power. And. there are ways in which this is an. oligarchy. And there are times when the. problem is corporate power and. billionaires. That's not why Texas. builds a lot of housing. California. doesn't. It's not why we can't build.

transmission lines. And so, which I. think has a more liberal view of power, which is that power can be illused. wherever it collects. Bureaucracies can be can become oified. and hidebound. Unions can be great or. they can be a problem. Businesses can be. great or they can be a problem. Right? Like liberalism is an endless balancing. of different forces in society and. recognize that today we're an alliance, tomorrow we're not. And like the way to. tell is to know what you're trying to. achieve. >> and who is and is not on your side in.

that. Um, I think that people took that. and take me as a sort of like if what. you want is for the democ Democratic. party to be extremely populist. Um, I think we sort of became like the. liberal idea you felt you had to knock. off the the board and on social media. there's like a lot of dynamics for um. uh conflict. It's this funny experience. I have had releasing abundance which has. done. >> un so much better than I would have.

thought like it's been we're 24 25 weeks. in it hasn't fallen off the bestseller. list. Barack Obama last week made it one. of his five or six books of the summer. and said it's like a great blueprint for. reform in government and he would know. he was president. >> Um you know these four uh like very kind. of leftist mayors and local leaders you. know were like you know we are using. this in our cities where we govern in. the nation. I find that like in the way. it's being greeted by people who are in. government and work on government like.

it's a really really interesting. constructive conversation and then you. turn on social media and and people want. to fight. >> So let me ask you but I think that's all. part of it. >> So let me ask you a question to that. point. Let's let's break it down into a. few chunks. The first part of it, and I I often find. this is a puzzle that I grapple with in. comedy, in commentary, whatever it is in. life is I go, if Barack Obama's like, "Oh, yeah, this is great and I love it.". And you know, if um you know, billionaires in Silicon Valley, Elon.

Musk was like, "Yeah, yeah, this is. great. I like this idea." And you know, I think it was Reed Hoffman. >> He has not Elon Musk has not said he. likes this idea. >> Oh, no. He reposted it video, >> but like Reed Hoffman's like, "Yeah, I. like this idea." I I I I sometimes. wonder if that is sort of what some. people are butting up against is they're. going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." They're. going, "We don't think of Barack Obama. as like the big reform guy. We think of. him as an incrementalist. We think of. him as somebody who is not fully.

progressive." And, you know, to your. point, he's not fully left. I think. that's what some people are saying for. that for that first part. I think what's. also interesting is like when when when. I read through the book is I go I agree. with you. It is easy for people to focus. on the one thing they don't agree with. You know, so they'll go like look I. agree on I agree on a lot most of it but. this one thing makes it irrelevant. And. I think a lot of people have said that. some in a more nuanced way than others. But it feels like there's a there's an. insidious hidden menace in these stories.

cuz you see when you were even talking. about it you said we you said why have. we made it harder for the railways and. the we've made it that the we and I. think that's actually where the issue. comes up is people go wait which we you. know so the the the Biden example you. gave on the John Stewart thing and you. did write about this a little bit was. you cannot talk about broadband not. being rolled out in America the way it. should be without talking about the. telecom companies affecting how that. bill actually gets passed, you know, in.

its final iteration. I don't think. America has a a single example of laws. and and you know, um policy being shaped. without the people who are making money. trying to shape their policy. We see. this in South Africa, by the way. Everything you're saying, many South. Africans complain and they go, "The. government can't fix the roads. The. government is not doing a good job with. providing basic services. the government. and then people inevitably go, you know. what? We need to like break this thing. up and.

just get it moving. But when you start. scratching, you go, "Whoa, wait, wait. Why is it that hard to do that? Oh, there's a company that has a monopoly on. fixing roads and they're trying to make. it so that they keep on having the. thing. Oh, there's a company that wants. to charge high rates for data and for. internet access and they're a cellular. this is a company that makes a lot of. money. It's a telecoms company and they. affect the politicians and how they make. the decisions. And I think that's some. of what the criticism is about is like. people going, Ezra, we agree with you on. this, but we wonder why you've left out.

this boogeyman that is way more powerful. than a lot of people will acknowledge in. terms of how the Wii actually get to. make the rules. So, I would say two. things about this. So, one is that I. don't think we left it out. I think that in a lot of the stories we. told, it wasn't the core boogeyman in the. story. Not because we were not open to. finding it there,

>> it just wasn't. Um, let me say this a. different way. Maybe. >> political coalitions have enemies they. are comfortable with and enemies or. problems they are not comfortable with. and dem liberals, leftists, depends how. you want to think about this, are very. comfortable when the enemy is corporate. power. So if I tell you there's a. problem in health insurance and the. problem is the private health insurance, like yeah, [ __ ] them. Um there's a. problem in the pharmaceutical industry.

Drug prices are too high and it's. because the pharmaceutical companies are. greedy benefits. How are they? And. that's often true. Like I'm a believer. that we should negotiate down Medicare. drug prices, etc. Go back to what I told you motivated the. book. I look around and I see a reality that. blue states became unaffordable in a way. red states didn't. Is it plausible that the issue is it.

blue states are hot beds of oligarchic. control and red states have managed to. solve the problem of corporate power? that like Florida and Texas do not allow. businesses access or influence to their. legislatures, but California, New York, and New Jersey do. And it's not the. problem, right? It doesn't that doesn't. pass a smell test at all. So, a lot of. the book is about housing. >> That's an important thing to pay. attention to. The single biggest part of.

most families budgets. >> and there are places where private. equity has begun buying up housing. But. during the period of time when these. problems took root, that was not the. issue. We um in which case I mean liberals. living in blue states passed a lot of. rules. They made it really really hard. to build new housing. Not because the. corporations made us do that. A lot of. corporate developers would like to build. higher housing towers than they are able. to. >> Yeah. >> And we allowed a terrible problem to.

take hold. >> um and need to fix it. How do you how do. you hone in on on. >> Let me just like keep keep on this for a. minute because. >> I really think people get caught between. two versions of something. Abundance is not about every problem. It's about the problems that we have. been particularly bad at fixing. >> And so. I don't think there is a.

inability. to identify. places where you have say intense. corporate concentration creating. monopoly problems that was in fact part. of the bid administration they made Lena. Khan uh uh commissioner and they went. after antitrust monopolies in a a much. more aggressive way like the book is not. critiquing that the book is not against. doing that. >> but they were trying to build a huge. amount of new clean energy. and the truth of that project which.

again was another big motivating force. in the. is that it's going to have corporate. power on both sides of it. >> You'll have a lot of fossil fuel power. that wants to maintain the uh wealth of. their investments and their status quo. You have a lot of new green energy. companies emerging that want to make. solar panels and wind turbines and you. know and if you cover any of those. fights and I've covered a bunch of them, you'll find companies on both sides. Uh. what you will also find is a legal. structure. that makes it hard to build new things.

And that legal structure can be used to. block certain kinds of um fossil fuel uh. projects, >> but it can also be and is being used. against green energy. >> And figuring out how to create a. speedway for green energy actually. requires us to like not just have an. anti-corporate viewpoint. Who's going to. build all this [ __ ] if it's not. corporations? Like, if we're going to do. the green transition, like we are going. to have to have people building things.

and making money laying it down. >> Yeah, >> I think decarbonization is important. I. think energy, clean energy abundance is. important. >> So, what I want to do is shape a market. >> that gets corporations to use their. power for good. I am happy to construct. law that basically makes fossil fuel. investments, particularly coal, like. worthless, right? That's a very very big. problem for those corporations. >> But this is what I mean that it's about. balancing and it's about being goal. oriented. >> where corporations are problem. Great.

Like that's what we're here to do. We're. here to solve problems. But if you keep. saying you're going to solve problems. and you keep failing, then saying the. same thing louder, which is what the. Democratic Party has often done, is not. going to be enough. and being able to. see problems that are inconvenient for. your coalition to see like that becomes. really really important and I think is. part of how Democrats have to win trust. back with people like yes attack. corporate power corporate power is a. problem but you know what every [ __ ].

person who lives in this country. >> has a story about how the government has. failed them. >> and having credibility with them is. partially about saying yeah we know and. like we know we were part of that and. the reason you should trust us next time. when you're not happy about how it went. last time cuz we were able to. acknowledge the problem. >> Yeah. If you can't acknowledge that you. made the mistake, how can we trust that. you can fix it? Essentially, if because. you're a part of that. >> Ju just to take take a step back, I I. was thinking of like, you know, sort of.

going through the thread through all of. our stories like what we choose to focus. on and how we focus on it in journalism, in in politics, you know, with with. abundance. Even looking at a problem, I'm always intrigued by like which. problem we choose to fix first and how. we fix it. The housing thing you said is. is particularly interesting to me. because I'm not an economist, but I and. I try and but I try my best to. understand how economics works and and. why it affects the way we live. You. know, I try my best. >> And one of the things that intrigued me. is depending on when you look at the.

timelines, the red state success story. isn't necessarily as successful as you. think it is because it's just a newer. story, right? So Texas is a good. example. If you look at the blue states, you know, the major cities, let's call. them major cities rather, because I. think that's to be honest with you, I. think that's and this is my opinion. I. think this is what has hurt a lot of the. rhetoric in America is that people call. it blue states, red states. The blue. states have done this, the red states. have done this. Then somebody's first. inclination is to say, "No, screw blue.

Screw red. I don't want red solution. I. don't want blue solution.". When I look at it from an economics. point of view, I go major cities and. secondary cities or rural areas. That's. how I think of it. Forget the politics. altogether. >> Generally speaking, major cities will. attract more people. They will generally. provide more jobs. That's why they're. major or that's why they become major. Prices then go up. Affordability then. goes down. And then you start a sprawl. that spreads out. Then there's an event.

that moves people from one place to the. next. It can be a gold rush or it can be. a gold flea. In our case, I think co. moved quite a lot of people in in a in a. far more rapid way than we thought. But. the reason I bring up time scales is. because I go Washington DC. I think per capita you will correct me. if I'm wrong. Internet put liar. Um. Washington DC I think per capita has. built more houses than Texas has. And. that's that's blue run blue everything. But and this is like on a per capita. basis. And if you look at the cost of.

living in Texas now, the cost of. actually owning a house, it's no longer. the like housing utopia that it was like. a few years ago because now everyone's. rushed in and like it feels like basic. economics. And so I wonder when we're. looking at these problems and when when. you're thinking about them, do you think. we sometimes get bogged down on where to. start? Or do you think like because. sometimes I like I think everyone is. guilty of this, maybe even myself. included, is we'll go, "Yeah, but that's.

not the problem." Oh, but that's not the. problem. Yeah, but that's not the. problem. But that's not the real. problem. And it's like, okay, we'll. start with the problem. Do Do you get. what I'm saying? Like. >> Yeah. I just don't think the story. you're telling is right. >> You don't think the storytelling is. right? What elements of it? >> The core element of it. >> So you look at these cities, right? >> Yeah. >> And you can track housing creation in. different cities. >> Austin had a big influx of people. >> Yeah. >> In the past decade or two, >> what happened? Look at housing creation. It spikes. >> They build a ton of new housing.

>> Yes. >> And rents go down. >> And then. >> that's still they're going down. the. rents have gone down in Austin in the. past couple of years. >> But then, and maybe I'm missing this, but then like when you speak to the. people, when I was in Austin, I didn't. speak to everyone, >> but every night when I'd do a show, I. would speak to thousands of people and. I'd go out into the street and I'd try. and I'd listen to the news. The people. in Austin go, we hate the people from. California who've come here because now. we can't afford houses. We can't.

>> They did go up for a while, but then. they began building got dropping. You can look at housing starts in LA in. SF. >> It's not like I lived in San Francisco. I lived in Los Angeles. >> I can tell you that there is no. technical inability to build an. apartment complex in San Francisco. Do. you think it's the Nimbies? >> It's the Nimbies. It's the rules. It's. it's a lot of different things. But what. what I'm asking the deeper question I'm. asking you in that question is do you.

think that there are many people in the. Democratic party let's call it or you. know who will say the things going back. to what I was saying climate change but. they don't actually want it. So they'll. say we want more housing and we want to. fix it but then they don't want it in. their back. They don't want affordable. housing. >> That and there's um the coalition. building is is hard but but I want to. stay on the thing you said because I. think because I do want to like push. this back. You can go look at for. instance's other countries like a place. like Shenzen in China. Yeah. >> Or Tokyo which has an amazing housing.

market because it builds incredibly. vertically. >> And so despite being one of the one of. the densest cities in the world, >> it's an affordable city and it's because. they build housing. How to build housing. is a solved problem. >> Who's who's the they? Just so we can. >> Tokyo. >> No. No. Yeah. No. I mean it's honestly. who's the they? They have rules um in. which developers can build homes and. developers work off of the rules to. build the homes. I mean unless you're. doing public or social housing,

>> right? >> Most housing is, you know, is is. privately created. >> San Jose, right? The the Silicon Valley, >> you drive around Silicon Valley, it has. become one of the richest areas in the. entire world. It's like strip malls and suburbs. because we do not allow we California, Silicon Valley, we built rules to make. it impossible that is all this wealth. flooded there, you couldn't build up. And so the people who do the work for. those people, right, who cut their hair.

and run their restaurants, they commute. hours every day. >> and their kids don't get to grow up. there and take advantage of that great. community that they help build. M. >> I I just I really want to push this. because I think it is a kind of. fatalism. >> The idea that we cannot build apartment. buildings when more people move to a. place. >> is not true. Like we can choose to build. it or not build it. But that's actually. in a way the one place I'm optimistic. maybe is that we choose scarcity. We.

could choose abundance too. We can build I mean you look at other. countries. You look at this country in. the ' 50s. What? We [ __ ] forgot. We I think it was in the 50s. In 10. years, if I'm remembering the statistic. right, we increased the nation's housing. stock by about a quarter. 10 years. Like California built more houses per. capita then than it does now. We had a massive loss of technology.

since then. >> Did somebody like burn all the plans for. how you build a building? We decided and we decided for reasons. It's good for the homeowners. Your home is worth more in many cases. when you have nobody can build around. it. I mean we talk about this all in the. book. >> but it's really really really important. in my view like not to get into fatalism. and it's not by the way it's easy to. build like if you have a huge influx of. people prices will go up. >> Yeah. >> Right. Austin did see prices go up.

>> What the market is supposed to do what. the government is supposed to do in that. case is respond. Right? That's a signal. We need more homes. That signal should. be met um by private housing and should. be met also by government capable of. building enough affordable public. housing, >> right? >> And in places where often Democrats. govern, but not only, neither one is. happening. And like the idea that we. have settled into this, it's like, well, that's it. Sorry everybody. Like go. leave. drive the working class out of.

your cities and then have a [ __ ] lawn. sign that says kindness is everything. No human being is illegal. >> Like that's just hypocrisy, right? And like yeah, people get mad at. you. Also, by the way, it has electoral. power implications. Like the census. happens and you know you're going to see. in the next one Texas and Florida and. places like that get a bunch more seats. >> in California because people have had to. move there. So I just this isn't like.

I'm just doing some trick of the time. scales. There is no concept. There is no. technical inability to build these. things. Other countries build highspeed. rail, >> right? >> Like you can ride it. You've been able. to ride it for decades in Japan, in. China, in Europe. We made rules where. you can build. It's not that Americans. are not capable of building highspeed. rail or paying somebody who's done it in. Europe to do it here. We just have not. completed any of it. We should be we who believe in. government should be much more rip [ __ ]. about this than we are not explaining it.

away like we should be mad like if you. like as the like the left of center. if you can't make the places you govern. affordable. for the people you have promised to. govern on behalf of the working class. If you cannot make the government. deliver the things you have told them. it's going to give them like good roads, highspeed rail, good trains, good parks, all of it. Like isn't that a problem? Like.

shouldn't you be furious? Not just like. let the right tell people how government. is bad, but shouldn't you be like in un. unbelievably committed to making. government that people feel about it. >> the way they feel about it in places. where the government delivers, right? Like what better thing to run on and. beat people like Donald Trump on then. like elect us and we will govern this. country the way we govern California or. New York instead of allowing them to say.

them. Look at California. Look at. >> And they're going to govern this country. the way they govern California, New. York. Like I I just I think that the. explaining away government failure is. one of the most toxic traits of the. left. >> Like the left should demand an excellent. government and it should be relentless. and ruthless about making that happen. And it's not. You don't think it is. genuinely? >> It isn't. It depends. It depends on. which for me I think it depends on which. part of the left you're looking at. because I I think I think you're right.

in in what you're saying about what. people should demand of their government. and everyone who says that they are left. or progressive should demand these. things of a government. But maybe that's. sort of what we're touching on in all of. these worlds. We look at your world with. journalism. There's one part of the media that is. acknowledging its existence in the story. that it's telling. There's another part. that isn't. It's going like, "No, we're. going to keep printing newspapers and. we're never going to go online and we're. never going to have an AI AI trend in.

our models and we're never we're never. we're never we're never never the way it. is is good enough." And then you look at. the world of politics and politicians. going, I'm actually not going to think. about my answer. I'm not going to tell. you my truth. I'm not going to make you. uncomfortable. I'm not going to stand. because the way it is is good enough. And then I think when we move into the. economics of it all in the world, it's. it sort of sounds like the same theme as. you're going. It's like there's people. who go the way it is is good enough. Do. you get what I'm saying? But I actually. think that's why the Mandanis and and.

his cohorts in different parts of. America. I think that's why I think they. are doing well is because whether people. agree with them or not, people are. saying they are coming forward with that. promise. They are they are pushing the. idea that the government must do more. >> But here's the thing. Um and this is. going to be the challenge for MDI. It's. a challenge for everybody. >> It's. the cycle of American politics. is.

exciting leaders rise up particularly. newcomers. >> Yeah. >> Promising amazing things. >> and then they deliver 10 or 15% of it. >> Mhm. and create a cycle of. disappointment. That's in a way like. what led to a lot of people moving from. Barack Obama is like the greatest thing. ever. >> Yeah. >> To incrementalist. I mean, and he. actually did a lot like the Affordable. Care Act did, you know, does deliver. insurance to 20ome million people. you know, whether it's mom Donnie or.

it's Mikey Cheryl the who will likely be. the next governor of New Jersey or you. know Abigail Spanberger in Virginia or. it's um like anybody running Baltimore. any Westmore in Baltimore. >> the campaign is the easy part. it's delivering that's the hard part. >> and so yes like it's really exciting. mom's campaign. >> all these people are exciting like. people good polit Politicians should be. exciting in campaign mode.

>> Yeah. >> What I want in abundance is to make it. possible for them to deliver. The. different ones will want to deliver. different things. >> But I don't want this endless cycle of. disappointment. The hard part is not making the promise. >> The hard part is building the highspeed. rail, is delivering the housing, is. making the buses free, is you know. creating free. >> Yeah, I'm with you. >> So I don't think we can say like, hey, look, people are getting excited. Like. they always get excited. It's exciting. to have a new person say all these other.

[ __ ] people have failed. Not me. I'm. different than them. I'm going to give. you all the things you want. But then. they typically don't. And some of that is that, you know, the. world is hard and it's complicated and. there are trade-offs. And then sometimes. you look around like, yeah, if we did. things differently, maybe we could give. you 50%, not 10%. >> 60%. But that's going to require us to. take a different approach. That's sort of the abundance argument. And by the way, it's why, you know, like.

actual politicians on the left are. thinking about how to deliver like M. Donnie are talking about abundance on. the campaign trail. Why Obama who had a. bunch of things he wanted to deliver and. wasn't able to is talking about. abundance. People who Gavin Newsome who. like a lot of abundance is a critique of. California. I went on his podcast. He's. like, I love abundance. I've given it to. the heads of the um legislature. Like. people have to grapple with this stuff. They're the like they are really in the. teeth of it and it's hard to change,

right? If they're easy, they would all. have done it. But that's also why I. think it's important to create a. political force that wants to see a. change and that will like back them up. if they actually try. Like what I want. to see from Mdani is that he creates a. New York City government capable of. doing the things he promises, right? That's the hope. Like he wants to build. I think his promise is 200,000 um public. housing units. I want to see him succeed. at that. >> Mhm. >> That's going to require changing a lot.

about how government works. And if. you're going to have more private. building on top of that, changing even. more about how government works. That's. the question. Like delivery, not. campaign promising. And you see in that. inspiring and optimistic despite what. you say about yourself conclusion, I. actually rest my case. because if you remember at the beginning. of this conversation I said you are in. the room where it happens. You said you. are not and you said there is no room. and then a few moments ago you said to. me that you wrote a book and Obama has.

told people to read the book. Mam Dani. who is the frontr runner in the. Democratic race here in New York uh he. has pushed the book uh multiple other. leftist mayors and leaders around the. country are pushing the book and I go if. that's not being in the room where it. happens uh I don't know what is. >> abundance the book where it happens. >> uh I don't know my friend thanks thanks. for taking the time thank you for your. thoughtfulness thank you for your cander.

thank you for thank you for trying more. than anything you know what I mean I. think I think that's that's sort of like. the underlying thread that I feel and. this this is something I think we will. always grapple with in politics in. debate and conversation is. we have become a society that punishes. people more for trying and failing than. rewarding them for trying in the first. place. And I think like that's the first. step. Do do you get what I'm saying? I. genuinely do. I go like, "Oh man, thanks.

for trying and thanks." Cuz if you don't. try, you end up in a world where every. politician goes, "Don't try. Just just. keep quiet. Just" and then every now and. again, you need someone who steps up and. goes, "Oh, yeah." You know what I mean? >> The case for trying. >> Yeah, man. The case for trying. So, thank you very much, dude. I appreciate. it. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much for watching the. episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on. to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friends still. Let. them suffer for a change. And don't.

forget to engage with us in the. comments. uh if you want to suggest a. guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you. can chat to us, we will read through the. comments and we'll get into it. Either. way, I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for hanging out with us on. What Now. And remember, we do this for. you, so we would like to hear from you. Till next time, thank you.