Esther Perel – One of My Favorite People | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

You know, in New York, you ask people how you are, and they often did one behind. Yeah, they tell you what this is going to be like. I find it's I find, I find that's the biggest change is when I, when I'm in New York or when I'm in anywhere in the US. If I ask somebody and I notice it. most glaringly when I come back from South Africa. If I ask somebody, how are you or how are you doing? They often tell me how they what they're doing, you know, say, oh, I'm the I'm really busy.

And that's even how the people ask me questions. So what do you what are you up to? What are you up to? These. What are you doing? What are you doing? What do you, What do you what do you. It's all about that. And as I say, when I go back to South Africa, it's all. How are you? In fact, if I go home and I start to talk too much about what I do, people don't like it. It's like you're not there to talk about yourself. and so much and put in put yourself in the center. You're there to participate in the in the collective experience,

in what we are creating together. The afternoon, the lunch, the walk in you're reading. There is a clear distinction between talking about work and talking about life. And life is not work. Welcome to what? Now, in today's episode, I'm going to be having a conversation. with one of my favorite people in the world, Esther Perel.

Now, you probably know Esther as a psychotherapist, as a bestselling author whose work has changed the way millions of people. think about relationships, sex, romance, and intimacy all over the world. But for today's episode, I wanted to do something different. I wanted to chat to the person behind the name. I wanted to. hopefully give you an insight into why she is one of my favorite people. And so today we talk less about Esther's work and more about Esther's life.

and how she got to the place that she got to. And I. really love this conversation because it really shows you. how the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. aren't always true, and how the path that we choose to get us, where we're going to get to isn't often how we end up where we end up in life. I know you'll enjoy it. Esther is one of the most profound people I know, so. you'll definitely learn something from it. Oh, and by the way, if you want to learn more about Esther's work.

or what she's doing right now, one of my favorite ways to engage in. it is her podcast called Where Should We Begin? It's a fascinating look into couples therapy. and what couples are going through in real time. So you end the therapy session with them. That's where should we begin? Check it out. And. This is what now.

with Trevor Noah. Why? Why did you call it that? Because it's often the first sentence that I ask when I meet a couple. that where should we begin? Where do I find you today? What's on your mind? Maybe it's what you wrote to me. Maybe it's completely different.

But where should we begin? Because every relationship is a story. Relationships are stories. We are both storytellers in some way. Yeah, but, you know, we're sitting here in in the studio. the first years until the pandemic, we recorded every session in my office. So people came in, like, every patient would have come in except that they come for the podcast. So they are not patients and never will be.

They sit in the waiting room, they walk into my office, and it's the same office. in which I see people throughout the day for my practice. Right. They're doing the same, like I'm in the same mental space as well. Same share, same mental space, same room. It's, And it really, I think, is what gave the podcast a tremendous voice. of authenticity because it, it was blended in with the other sessions that I do. Right. Most of the time, people are completely surprised to be sitting there.

because, you know, one person that midnight decided to fill. in the form and was convinced that they would never hear from us. Yeah, and here they are. And then there is the person that came with them. And, and sometimes they have never heard of me. because, you know, with podcast, one person. listens and the other one doesn't know what you're listening. Right? It's not like there's a book in the house and you go, you're reading that book, you can listen to a podcast for years and no, and your partner has no idea.

That is the first infidelity. It's exactly you having a relationship under my eyes. Yeah. You know, and I don't know anything about it. So, it's different. But we have created an office here, too. In the studio. And once it starts, I'm in the session. I mean, there is just no world outside. That's amazing. Eight years. We're doing it. Congratulate eight years. Eight years of the podcast, 20 years of mating in captivity.

And how many years in the field in practice already? Almost 40 years. Wow. What do you think people get from. hearing couples therapy that they're not part of? I mean, it's like entering the antechamber. It's like going the backstage. It's the story that you hear. about other people's relationships that you never know. You really are like a fly on the wall. So who really knows the truth about couples in these days, especially?

Yeah, your friends can come and tell you. they're breaking up and you never saw it coming because. And on top of it, people are posturing and. parading themselves all over social in these perfect situations. So the real truth about couples is a secret often. And when you listen to it, you feel less alone. You feel like your issues are not your own, only that there are other people who have similar things. Yeah, you listen intently and intensely to them and you actually see yourself,

even if it's not the same situation in the same story. There's always something where you say, I can relate to that. The thing I noticed is. just, you know, from from my side. whenever couples would go out together. I always find they come back and I know I've experienced this. You come back just a little more diffused. You come back just a little calmer. You come back.

There's something weird about knowing other people have problems. that makes your problems and not in, not in a like a schadenfreude away. But I mean like sitting. with another couple, you talk you and then I'm sure you know this, but like I've always I've always loved how one person. will take the other person's point of view. Another person will. All of a sudden you'll find crossings, you know, with this husband agrees. with that wife, and that wife agrees with that husband. And in a strange way, people go home feeling like their relationship. isn't as bad or isn't good as much because of other people. That's one of the ways sometimes they go home with the opposites experience.

But yes, there is a sense of it normalizes. There is a sense of being in a kaleidoscope. Yeah, that one partner sees themselves reflected in another. or validated by another, or that you get to hear your partner. differently because someone else is saying it for them. And it's just. you get. taken out of the the cellar and the light shines. and you and air comes in and it's very, very moving and powerful.

Oh, I feel like these days. And maybe it's a, maybe it's because of social media. I feel like these days people are sort of trying to win at relationships. the same way people are trying to like, win at therapy and, you know, maximize. Yeah. Yeah. Like like you. I was talking to a friend the other night and I was saying, do you remember? It was actually Simon Sinek, you know. Simon. Yeah. And Simon and I were literally walking through the street and I said to Simon, do you remember a time when people used to move for love?

I'm sure some people still do it, but it's less prevalent now. It's less an idea. It's even. almost shunned on, you know, when people go, oh, I moved here for a boy. Oh, I moved here for a girl. People go like, oh, you should never do that. You can't just move you. That's my story. What do you mean, that's your story? I'm here because of my husband. That's how you got to New York. That's how I came. Well, I came to America to study for one year. Yeah. I then thought I would stay a second year and kind of get more training. And then, I basically never used my return ticket.

Wow. So I have that story. What was it about him that made you stay? Like, what was? Because staying in and, it's one thing to visit another country. It's another thing to stay in another country. Because where were you living then? Was that France or Belgium? No, I actually came from Jerusalem. Wow. I came from you. You've lived everywhere. I've lived in a few places. I can't wait. That's nice than where you lived. I've lived in Belgium.

Yeah, Antwerp, where I grew up. It's not what I was born with. It's where I grew up. I lived in Jerusalem. I lived in Boston, and I lived in New York. It's not that many. Okay. Seems like many. Thank you. You have many homes, though. It seems like as a maybe it's a feeling. It's the way you speak about. some places that always makes me feel like you've actually lived there. I they were part of my life. Even if I didn't live there like Paris. I went to Paris my whole life. Every few, every month. Sometimes it's part of my life.

But I didn't have an address there. So in that sense, I have more than Amsterdam would be a similar place. Because once you're in Belgium, it's an hour. to Amsterdam and an hour and 15 to Paris. Three hours at the time. Yeah, I mean, these places I like the, the, the way that, Taya Selassie talks about it. She says, don't ask me where I'm from. Ask me where I'm local. Oh, that's beautiful. And I think it's exactly that. I'm local in a few places.

where you're a little softer than the Paris. I know, but maybe that's just how I see you. Like, I find. I find Parisians to be very blasé about most things. Or they appear blasé. But you, you have a little more like your eyes. open a little more when you notice things or when you see things. But I am very much not French. I mean, I have a French accent. I know that I'm. I'm educated in Flemish. I mean, what you call Afrikaans.

You know, my entire 12 years of schooling was in Flemish. I am from a Flemish city. I'm from Antwerp. Yeah. I have we spoke five languages at home. I mean, I French is a big part of mine, of me. But it's it's not, it's not the only one. I've always. I don't know why. I've always thought it was more you. I think it's because of how you. You'll talk about love and seeing love through like a French lens sometimes. You know,

like like. I think what I've always loved about French and the French. and love is, is. is how differently you get to see something, you know, I mean, we have this in Zulu, you know, in South African languages. I always feel like our greetings or a more warm our greetings. say more than just like, hello, don't you have a beautiful expression? So, Bono. Yeah. So Bono means I still see you? Yes. It's beautiful, you know that? And that's what I mean. And I feel like French is like that. For love.

Love relationships. Like, What's the word? You, you you spoke about? You. I remember you saying it to me once. Was it frisson? Yeah. Frisson. Which is like the. It's doesn't exist in English official. We use like at Oxford, I don't think I've never seen. And I always think of it as friction, but I don't think it's, you know, it's not real, it's not friction. It's a fizzle. Is a shiver. It's, the literal translation is a shiver, but it's a shiver with anticipation, with excitement, with a hint of a current that runs through your body.

No, I think so. No, I mean, you've got me. You've got me. This is what I mean by frisson. You see, this is the French thing. It's like it was that. So? It was. You know what it was? It was frisson. And then it was, there's another one. I loved it, and I, I remember I remember speaking to you about this. It was going around. It was in and around the MeToo movement, and it was a specific word or phrase in French.

that sort of implied it was an understanding. that somebody could tease you, but could never give. in to your whims or your wants or your, I mean, to flirt. Yeah. Comes from the word flower, okay. Which is the tip of the sort. that is actually meant to tease you. That is flirting is teasing. Yeah. Playing with possibility. It has no connection to scoring.

Yeah. You see, I think most people would disagree with that in the United States. Yes. Most people would say this is a pragmatic society. trying to engage with the erotic arts. Yeah. There are a lot of people who say, how could you? Then why did you flirt with me? Then? Why did you why did you lead me on? I think that's the phrase a lot of people say, why did you lead me on? And then as that turns around and says, like I wasn't leading. you on, I was playing with the tip of my sword. Yes, it's true that a lot of my thinking about. relationships, love, desire, passion,

all of that was very much shaped within a francophone French context. Yeah, my adolescence was very much steeped in that, and. but it's Latin as well. It's not just French and it's not the pragmatic. approach of that that is dominant here. You get shit done, you achieve things, you're direct, you get to the point. you don't miss, you don't miss a beat, you don't bitter, you don't do grunt. What is it? Turn around the corner. Yeah, right. It's like all of these things are about this unvarnished directness.

to say it as it is. And that is not the way we think of. the arts of love and the communication. around it, and the way you express yourself in all of that. It's really big cultural differences. And I think I right from that place, just through writing speak. What do you love about America then? Because you you've lived here for how many years now?

35, 35 years. You lived here. You you you'll engage in it in a very honest way. and not in an America bashing way I've never found. But I I've always been intrigued by the paradox of like, why you would like, why would you live here. when it is that direct and that immediate. And it's all about the goal and it's all about the objective. It like, what about it made you fall in love other than meeting somebody? I mean, I definitely fell in love with New York.

And before I came to stay here, I had been here already. A first time I came to the United States was in 1976. Okay. Bicentennial was kind of the first time that we began to travel to the US. I came with a cargo airline. I hitchhiked around the corner. What does that mean, a cargo airline? It was one of these airlines that. No. Come on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You came with like a DHL plane? Yes.

That's not even a thing. That's not getting better. I spent almost seven weeks hitchhiking across the country. I saw America like when we'll never see it again. I stayed with all kinds of people. from every. Every walk of life, every race, every religion, every profession, every class and, every culture. and really, I think that that was such a powerful experience.

I was 18, not even. And at the time, you could hitchhike. Yeah. Those are the good old days. I was totally received by the kindness of strangers. And really, I went to parts of the country that I never even thought I would go. because it wasn't in my I was originally going to do on a Greyhound on the bus, but people were so kind. that, I ended up doing the entire trip hitchhiking. I go from New York to the West Coast. I do the whole loop of the West. And this is what?

So this is all for fun? Yeah. Okay. I finished high school. This was before going to college, and I came with my boyfriend and we decided to travel. But I didn't know it was going to be a. Whoa, wait wait wait. Okay. Let's rewind. You came with the. You didn't tell me about the boyfriend, so. No, no, no. So they were hitchhikers, were picking up you and the boyfriend? Yes, yes. I stood in the front. These two, you know, you feel the move. All right, listen, like me, I mean, he's English was much better than mine. But I can't tell you what the diversity of people that we met.

and how much this has influenced me to. To a certain kind of open mindedness. Well, you know, tolerance, curiosity, just curiosity before you make your judgments. To to people who had never heard about Belgium. It's not like they knew where we were coming from. 2 a.m. radio stations where the only, you know, the amount of time they talked about the weather was just unbelievable. and with affect, with feeling that. the only time they talked with feeling about things was about the weather.

And I did hours of this car rides, you know, staying with people in their homes. How do you how do you get into somebody's house? People would say, where are you staying? And you would say, and I would say, I don't know. We will look for a hotel or for a motel. And then they would say, do you want, you know, please, we have a room. you can stay. It's a it's a very interesting way of establishing trust, connection, a rapport. You know, I'm a strange to them as they're strange to me, you know.

Really I it was all positive except one time. where I, we figured out it was better to just get out of there. But the rest of the time, you can't you can't just skip through that. How do you figure out something? Because you kind of, It's all it's it's very, very intuitive. It's like it doesn't sound. It doesn't feel right. You the rude. It's around the corner, but around the corner takes 15, 20, 20 minutes. Second, you just know that something doesn't feel right. and you just say thank you so much. We'd get off here.

You know, it's not my first a hitchhiking trip either. And I've done all this, but, you know, you asked me how I came and why I stayed. And I think that that experience. was very influential in how I absorbed the US. Yeah. And and I think, you know, things are often both ends, right. On the one hand, you come as a European, you have a whole respect for culture that is established a long time ago. You value history, you value tradition, you value rituals,

but you also value to come to a place where people rarely ask you. that they knew when I came and where what have you done? And who is your family and what's your idea? What do you want to do here and then you either have. people who look at your CV and you don't fit in this region, or you see people say, this girl, she has some ideas. and she has some energy and ambition and will let her try something.

This is not what you get in Europe. In Europe we tried this and it didn't really work. And that may take a long time and there's a lot of ready group. And because tradition and history are so valued, change and innovation and novelty is not necessarily instantly welcome here. It's the reverse. So when you come here as a 20 something year old. and you have ideas and energy and you want to do things, it's incredible. I mean, I came to New York and I got a tremendous amount of money.

to make a documentary and to do a project on, on the relationship. between blacks and Jews, on the relationship. between black people, like the dynamics of black Jewish tensions. I can I tell you, we're talking 84. This is the Osborn. And this is a fascination I've had for a very long time. Yeah. That's you and me in my. Yeah. Yeah, literally. No. Can I tell you I, I mean, we don't have tension, but it is.

Yeah, but whatever. But, actually, I'd love to know about that work because. I've grown up in this world. where obviously I have a lot of Jewish people in my life. I went to a school that was technically a Jewish school, and a Jew, definitely. in a Jewish neighborhood. Grew up, you know, and South. Africa was weird in that once apartheid ended, there wasn't an immediate. mixing of people, but there's definitely a blurring of the lines. And so the younger generation grew up in a world. where we were all exposed to each other's worlds and cultures and, you know. Yes.

So, so. in my school, the Jewish kids acted like they were Lebanese, but the Lebanese kids said things that were Jewish, you know, and these kids were eating that food and that food, and they were singing that song and dancing like so. So it was this mix. But I, I was always intrigued. by the overlaps of black people and Jewish people in the world. and the alliances and the tensions that would come with, you know, and then I remember reading, I think it was,

it was Malcolm X's biography, and he speaks at length about, like, the Jewish community. and like the Jewish man who helped him and what he was doing. And he was obviously becoming Muslim. And but it was still it was it was an interesting. it's always been a fascinating look for me. And I'd love to know what you were. What did you learn from the work or what were you trying to get from the work? So I had trained as a in psychology. and I was very interested in cultural transition.

Yeah, and particularly in couples and families who are in cultural transition. And that included people who move who. who immigrate either voluntarily or forced migration, internationals, but also in the middle, mixed. couples, mixed families, interracial inter-religious, intercultural. families, and interracial, inter-religious and intercultural. Okay, that really was the bulk of my work the first 20 years. The first 20 years. Yes, yes.

Before I touched mating in captivity, before I began to talk about culture. and sexuality. Yeah. And, and I wanted to understand. the differences between forced migration and voluntary migration. I wanted to understand mixed couples are in cultural transition, but they do it in their own living room, and, they don't have to move across the border, but it's happening. And so I arrived here and I did a project, a research project. on that and on multiculturalism in many different parts of the world.

And then I had done a lot of work on minority majority relations. I came from groups, then to families, then to couples. So majority minority issues. And I thought, but black Jewish relations, it's minority minority relations. Now I am 25. I have been here for three months. I don't think this would ever happen today, that somebody would let this person out of nowhere with not from here. But there was something about my naivete that I think kind of worked in my favor.

in a way, where I just was curious because I didn't identify. necessarily with American Jews, and I am not black. And, so I did this two year project on minority minority relations. And what is the sacred. dynamic of two groups who have experienced, in their own way, massive amounts of discrimination and who, you know, and what are the dynamics? You know, and then I did a documentary about that, a little film.

And, that would never have happened in Belgium. I mean, that doesn't happen. You don't what why what doesn't happen that somebody out of nowhere. comes and says, I have an idea, and that somebody says here, I fund you. Go ahead and show me what you can do. And the same thing is happening with me. But today that people find me. and just talk to me directly and this week I get a new college student.

I'm about to study couples therapy. I would love for you. to tell me what I should study, what I should focus on, who I should meet. And I'm like, how did you find my email? Because I totally know where you're from. Maybe. But it's like the idea that you could do this, you know, rather than calling the Dean name, who can I talk to? The professor and, you know, it's much less hierarchical. in the way that we have that we are internalized systems.

But it's all relative. It's not like this doesn't exist. I just want to make sure that this is not taken in an absolute way. But that was my experience of why I really liked it here. And then I felt everybody in New York came to do something. I mean, you come to New York to do things because in art, being in. you don't come to New York to live. I mean, yes, you can live the New York life, but you come because you have energy to do something. You there's refugees of every sort in this place. So you start to meet the most amazing people.

I have a lot of other things to tell you. I'm not always so positive. You know, the people who know me well are going to be very amazed to hear me. Yeah, but that's what I wanted. That's what I meant. I did because I've. Yeah, because I've, I've heard you speak at length. about all these things, but I, I've never, ever asked you and I've never heard you talk about, you know, what it is that gripped you. But this is, this is beautiful because. even in my short when I would go. Yeah. And I would see some of my dearest friends. And I'm curious if you have that too.

When you go home to South Africa, you see the people that you've known your whole life. But basically at 25. they were living not that different from how they would live at 45. And at 45 they were already living like, and I today already know. what the future is going to be like if they're healthy and all goes well. This is the kind of they're on a linear trajectory in New York or in the States. You have no idea. You can start this way. And suddenly, I mean, you know, this is kind of what happened to me.

I think it's what happened to you. And I can't imagine that literally. happening in the same way in Belgium. I agree, I agree with you. I think, I think in many ways. in Europe, what I. felt I Africa might be different in some ways, but it definitely has elements of it in Europe specifically. I know it's all about what was and I find in the US, it's all about what could be. That's what that's constantly the dance.

But then I find Europe comes with certain measure of. breathe into it, because it is what was. As long as it matches it, then you can relax. So the way people treat their their summers and their time off, and then there's a certain level of patience and calm that comes with it, because they know what that it always was, that. in America there's a certain edge of I will, maybe I'll work on a Friday. You know what? I'm going to work weekends. I'm going to, you know, I'm no time off. I'm just going to push it a little bit more. And I think both of them come with the, the pros and cons.

You know, the one metastasizes. Yes. Yes. The other one liberates you. But I think everything needs to bounce or something, right. Too much liberation is now just chaos. And then too much of a metastasized system is, is is, I guess it's just stuck in time. It doesn't. It doesn't move and it doesn't evolve. I I'm always I'm only trying to play with that balance. Just in life is you go, how many times do you want to. evolve, change, move, grow, move on to the next thing? And how many times do you just want to sit and say, yeah, you know what Tuesday will be like?

Friday will be like Saturday and let's see, every. I mean, this is something I teach, actually, you know, when I teach systems, I say every system, every relationship system being an individual or a. an organic system in nature, straddle stability and change. If you change too much, too fast all the time, you just regulate and you go chaotic. If you don't change, you fossilize and you die.

So you need both. I think in the US you are often. on the treadmill and you're moving very, very, very fast. One thing I never lost was the idea that I leave for the summer. and I leave not for ten days, I leave for six weeks and people always would. You don't feel guilty. And I never understood why I should feel guilty. You take time off and I maintain that notion. of the breathing, the spacing between the time to do nothing.

It's a dream. Reimagine your life. Think what else you want to do in and that form of reset was I. I never stopped and I traveled back home, you know, a few times a year. And that was the essence of is like you, you go there not to do necessarily, but to be. Yeah. To enjoy the company. You don't have to prove anything. You don't live to work. And that is still very much present.

And I try to bring some of that back with me here. I try to, to have it as part of, of, of my life and, It's a, it's a privilege, really, to be able to straddle both. Really. I didn't think about it like that at first. When I was young, I would go home and I would think, oh, they all know where they belong and I don't know where I belong. Wait, what do you mean by that? Like they did, they never, you know, in my mind, they were two groups of people,

those who never left and those who left once. Once you've left once you know that they're more than one place. and you no longer have that sense of roots. Yeah. So I would look at my friends who stayed and I would think that. they have such a clear sense of where they're going. Of course it was linear, but I envy that piece of there and then, but after a week, oh no, I'm I'm restless now. I want to go back. I want to go go back to my life. And I would get all busy.

And so I, I, I for a long time I. wanted to, to have the freedom of being in to places, but I wanted to still have the sense of rootedness and belonging. that is part of belonging to one place and over time, decades. Maybe I it's not. I slowly began to actually appreciate. that I was part of many places, even if I didn't necessarily. belong to all these places.

You know the distinction. No, I like that. I'm just trying to think of it. I'm trying to process. It's like it's a part of me. Yes, but I am not just that. If you want to know me, you need to know this and this and this. It's various parts, all the different parts of you that make you who you are. The locations, the languages, the the, the stories that accompanied. I think I think probably you two, I think. so you know what I'm trying to think of how it works for me. I mean, what part of your Americanness travels with you to South Africa?

So I think do you I think really kind of no, no, no, no. So I because I spent so much because I lived my whole adult life there. I'm very good at being South African. You know, it takes me a week and then I'm into the groove. The one thing that I will say that I've, I've inherited from America, which I'm always grateful for, is the idea that there's. the possibility to do it, even if it does not currently exist.

Yeah. You know, and I like this project. I was describing exactly this. This is always this, this idea of. But what if you could do it? But what if you could do it? It doesn't exist. But what if you could do it? And I think of how crazy that notion is. Everything that is at some point wasn't. Now we treat it like it's normal. But there was a time when it just, it wasn't. So I think, I think I've probably adopted that. What else is. It's some, there's also some negative things. that I think you adopt and then you,

if I'm, if I'm away and if I can leave them behind, you know, so America will make me feel like I have to be actively. engaged in everything all the time. There's a certain fullness to America as a, as a whole. It doesn't matter what it is, business, or are you missing out? Or you're not doing the thing or you're not engaged. News. Have you kept up? Do you know what's happening? Has it broken? Is it breaking? Is it live? Is it happy? You know, that's that's what is going on. It doesn't matter what even even small things like food.

Have you tried that place? You've got to try that place. Oh, my God, I can't believe you haven't tried that. Why haven't you tried that place? There's a there's a certain, you know, drive. Yeah, but it but an urgency. More than just a drive. There's an urgency to be part of and to not miss out on that. I don't experience when I'm back home, when I'm back in South Africa, it's different because when you live in. a more collectivist culture, the culture drives you. You don't have to go and attempt everything. and be part of everything in order to know that you exist.

because you are absorbed by a larger tradition. I think that is part of the individualism here. And part of the individualism is also, you know, once. I had the family, I had a very different experience here. because you have to do everything yourself. It's not just you have to go. You have to keep up with the news. You have to you also have to pay for your education. You also have to pay for your health. You you are responsible for everything. And when you come. from a social welfare system, that is a very different experience.

The idea with which people take it for granted that they have to. Put all the infrastructure in place. America is a social welfare state of two. And versus, you know, there's a social welfare state that exists as part of the system. And within that, you create a family that puts an enormous burden on people. Enormous. We're going to continue this conversation right after this.

short break. And do you always think you would do this? No. What was like the idea this. I find that there are almost like three different stages that people, sort of project themselves in. One is when you're very young. What what did you think you would be when you were like a young child? What did you want to be? Oh, I think I had different I had three things.

I was going to be an interpreter. because my mom said, you speak all these languages, you'd like to travel. Interpreter. We'll give you the voice, a journalist. Okay? Because I was curious. And and and a theater actress. Okay. I love the theater, but I think, honestly, for me, there's the people who have always known. what they wanted to do. Yeah, the people who just stumbled upon something, and then the people who had an inclination, and then they matched it with what life put in front of them.

I think if, as so much of what I did is because I arrived to the US. because of the opportunities that the US gave because and because of the. Yeah, because of the obstacles. Because I didn't have the right license and I couldn't do. what one would have done normally. I love that if I had studied. So the necessity became the mother of invention. I had to hustle. I had to create myself. I had to find a way to do. And so it became a kind of a combo between what I bring. and what life is putting in front of me and says, do this now.

So the friction is the reason we have. Yeah. Do you see? This is what I mean. No, it's it's amazing. My producer loves, a story. He was telling me that there's a story you told. I guess, that paints a picture of a little bit of a life. that most people wouldn't associate you with. at first glance. But I do think it explains a lot of, like, your style and how you see fashion and everything is like, how did you get into for and not fashion the way people think of it?

But what is your relationship with fashion? I my parents had a clothing store. They had clothing stores. I lived above one of the stores. I worked in the store pretty much since I could talk. What what type of clothing or anything I wear. Really? You wear? Okay. So it's just like a mix of a good clothing store. But, you know, my brother opened the first boutique in Antwerp, which was the first time that young people were dressing separately from adults.

Like when you were little, you had a suit with short pants. Yes. And it just what the adults do. A smaller version, a smaller version. Exactly. And then in the 60s, suddenly you began to wear your own. The jeans, the sweats, the Shetland sweater, you know. And so my brother opened the first boutique in Antwerp where young people. went to dress separately from the older folks. And, I lived my life with the change of seasons. by looking at the change of windows, and I.

accompanied my dad to the manufacturers to pick up the merchandise. and the collections, and I went with my brother to Paris. all the time to to get the merchandise and to look at the fashions. Yeah. So I kind of grew up in a fashion business, in the clothing business. And, and there was a tremendous amount of attention been on it. But I also sat in the store and watched my mother sell. because the stores were open till 8:00 and 9:00 at night. And my mother worked in the store. Was that common back then? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Every day till eight and Friday and Saturday till nine. Wow.

So if I wanted to see my mom, I had to be in the store. I sat on the chair and I watched her sell dress. People tell stories. People told their whole life story. You know, I went with my dad to bring suits to people who were dead, you know, and one morning before they were going to the burials and, and the cemeteries and, I mean, I really learned about life. through clothes, basically.

And I'm the only one in the family that didn't enter. the, the, the business, the family shop. Why was it because something pulled you more? Was it because something pushed you out? I just we lived above the store and I just thought, we never get rid of this thing. It's with us at every meal. That's all you talk about when you have a family shop? Yeah. You know anyone who's a family? And I just thought, I want a profession I can carry on my back. I want a. profession that I can travel with and I can,

you know, do it. And you wanted the store to live above you? Yes. Yes. And I can do it anywhere I go. The thought of being tethered like that to this place, because then I had an office and a private practice. So it wasn't, you know, until until, you know, Skype started. Yeah. Yeah, but that was the main idea. I remember saying to my parents, I said, I want a profession. because of the practice, mom, do that I can carry on my back. And here you are. I could be wrong, but I feel like.

there was the mating in captivity. Esther, who came onto the scene. and in many ways gave people their first look at an idea. that went beyond the way they, as we should probably explain. Oh, mating in captivity. Oh, for those who don't know, it's a book. Yeah, it's a book. And for those who don't know, it's it's 28th anniversary. Congratulations. Wow. Yeah, but I think it was one. of the first pieces of work that changed people's flat perceptions on.

not just relationships, but infidelity, the infidelity of the mind, how people, you know, and for a moment in time, that's sort of, you know, how I think a lot of people thought of Esther. That sort of was. Yeah, it really was your conquest at the time. It was the journey that you are on now. I feel like you have this, this passion and this laser focus specifically. around communion. See the village reconnecting with people, finding people.

I actually thought about you the other day because I walked past the laundromat, and I literally thought to myself, I need to talk to Esther about this. I, I, I did. You see, I have this theory in my head. I think we have neglected. or we have gotten away from too elements in life. that have robbed us of. intimacy, and we didn't realize that it's a second system effect. And those are need and friction.

Right. And when I looked at the laundromat, I saw both, but in different ways. The main thing I saw was friction. And I thought, it's amazing how now we live in a world. where if you live in a building, you want the building to have a laundry, you know, in in unit laundry, what I would have is a washer dryer. And when I looked into the laundromat, I thought, imagine how many love stories wouldn't have happened. if people didn't have to come and wash their clothes. Imagine how many friendships would have never been sparked.

if people didn't have to come and work. And it's friction. It's it's it doesn't seem like, you know, the writing gradient to get there. But when I looked into the laundromat, I was like, oh, wow, what a. what a cool, organic way to meet because you stuck with somebody. for three hours and you might find you with them every single week. At some point you might just say hi at some point. Nice to see you again. Hey, you left your. I put the coins in the dryer. I, you know, and I literally thought of you and I was like, wow, I want this.

This is like part of what Esther's fighting or not. Laundromats obviously, but friction. Friction? Yes. The importance of friction. That is definitely a piece I talk about. But if you want to go back for a moment. So. I had. been a couple's therapists for quite a while. when I wrote Mating in Captivity, I just had not focused. on sexuality. and the cultural story that supports our expectation.

It's around sexuality, around desire, around, eroticism in long term relationships and, I took a, I took a kind of a, a side road and then and I just thought, I want to. I want to explore this because I had been trained in certain ways. to think about sexuality in relationships. And I just thought, is that really true? I mean, that the way it works, because that's not what I see. in my office, and I don't think it's what other colleagues see in their office.

Wait, you're using your training wasn't matching up with what you were seeing. That's real world. I always assumed it was your training. No, that had info. No, not at all. That's part of why the book became so, significant. Because it actually questioned a whole set of, suppositions. that were parading as truths when they were actually not. Give me an example of. sexual problems are always the consequence of relationship problems. If you fix the relationship, the sex will follow.

That happens sometimes, but I had seen many couples. who got along much better and it changed nothing in their bedrooms. Because the politics of the bedrooms are not the same as the one in the kitchen, because love and desire, they relate, but they also conflict sometimes. And how do we negotiate and reconcile. security and adventure, love and desire. That was the subject of this first book. And then I began to think, well, what happens when desire goes looking.

elsewhere? And that became the book about infidelity and I thought, here too, there's a whole set of ways that we think about infidelity. that don't help a ton of people. And I would ask you, audience, after audience, if they've been affected. by the experience of infidelity in their lives. and by the 85%, 90% of the people would raise their hands. either because of a parent was or they were the child of or they were one. of the three protagonists, or they were the friend. So this is not just a few rotten apples.

on the side, and people are gutted by this. And I thought, there needs to be a better way to help people deal with the crisis of. of affairs and the breaches of trust and the violations and all of that. And then. and then these are still two books. that basically presumes that people will be in relationships, or at least. those are the people I wrote for, or people who seek to be in relationships. And then I became I went back to the origin of my work, actually,

which was I'm a systemically trained therapist who looks at relational systems. And I began to see our relational systems. and our relational lives is changing fundamentally. It is one of the most important pieces of the future. I'm interested in the future of relationships. Let's go back to you said systems training. Yeah. So help me understand what what is what is the difference between. psychoanalytic and systemic? Yeah. I wouldn't even know the names. Yeah. So psychoanalytic analytic and systemic okay.

Systemic training was the I mean it exists in cybernetics. It exists it it borrowed pieces from subordinate. disks and feedback loops and looked at relationships. and relationship problems or problems in families and couples. as they are connected to the context, right? How is the system organized that keeps this problem in place. versus going just intra psychically into intra into inside yourself, right? Looking at your own personal story rather than looking at.

what is actually happening between me and you. That's a very different interpretation. Looking at how are we interact in such a way. that our communication is really fraught, or that we end up both being rejected. at the end of every conversation, rather than just. what happened in my history and what happened in your history. It's it's understanding, that's it's problems occur in a context. You look at how is the system organized around these problems.

And it is interpersonal and not just intrapersonal. Got it. And that to me was the beginning of thinking relationally. Hence community friction and all of that. If I look at the line I, I, I've been looking at. what happens between people and not just inside of the people. And our mental. health models have been very, very focused on what happens inside.

Yeah. And the idea is that if I'm better with myself inside, it will solve all the problems between you and I. If I am more at peace with myself, I'll be nicer to you. If I like myself more, if I'm more selfish, etc. and that is sometimes the case. But it is not the whole story and. but the whole story is also the opposite. If I'm actually, you know, engaged with you, and I'm. less likely sometimes to think about myself all the time.

Yeah. And to find meaning in doing things for others and to find relevance. and to even get confidence because of how other people see me, rather than stand alone in front of my mirror. and try to say to myself, you were do you worthy? So that is the big divide at this moment. That is really an essential division. And then comes technology and then comes, you know, climate change and migration, then all of the big geopolitical issues, and they all are influencing the way that we are relating to each other.

And then instead of just calling it relationships, I began to think, no, no, it's relational intelligence. That's really where I am now. And that's not the same as emotional intelligence. It's really looking at the whole system. Relationships are all relationships have expectations. They have boundaries. They have room for creativity. They have, you know, a dimension of accountability and responsibility.

They straddle how we negotiate. And the self and the other mind needs your needs. You know how much I connect to you without losing me. and how much I connect to me without losing you? All relational systems have hierarchies have roles. It's a map. And what is happening to these systems. in light of technology, in light of AI, in light of the fact that. and now we get to the friction that most of the predictive.

technologies are aiming at reducing friction. Yeah. And they want you to have a polished, smooth, frictionless delivery of your every delight on demand. And that is fundamentally changing how you and I relate to each other. Yeah, I for me personally, I just noticed that a long story for a knowledge graph. Does that give you a. Well, I think how I got to where I am. Yeah, I think it does because I think, I think a lot of people are experiencing this,

but I don't think we understand why we are experiencing it. And I also think most people are being blamed for it, either from the outside or they blame they blaming themselves. So I think a lot of people are sitting at home saying, I can't make friends. I don't know people, I don't have a community. I'm lonely, I'm depressed. I'm this I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm. And then they're blaming themselves. But no, I think very few people are thinking about the laundromat. Very few people are thinking about.

what it means when your food gets delivered to your house versus. when you had to walk and go and get the food. And I don't mean it in like an old man way in my day, you know? I just mean, like, I mean, like the conversation. that you have with the person at the at the store. Oh, yeah. It just. it's just like that little weak tie that, that that builds something in your world. It's a it's a little I always think of it as planting the seeds for serendipity. That's how I think of it, because you never know which one will grow and which one won't. But even in comedy, you know, I will always say.

to my friends that things go wrong all the time in my life, right? You traveling, you have to cancel a show or a thing goes wrong. at the show or whatever it is, whatever it is. And my friends will say to me, how are you always so chill about it? And I go, I'm not necessarily chill, but I have practiced telling myself. that all of this is inevitably going to be comedy. The friction is the comedy. There's no good comedy that comes from an, you know, a beginning and an inevitable conclusion. Yeah, it doesn't work.

I went to the store and I looked for the size. that I was looking for, and they had it, and I bought it and my card went through and I went home and I put it on a story. No story. There's no story because give me obstacles. Exactly. That's the same as the erotic formula. Attraction plus obstacles equals excitement. Oh, wait. Hold on, hold on. Attraction plus obstacle equals. X equals excitement. It's the same in the in the rules of Desire. You know, it's funny. There's no obstacle if there's no friction.

We go back to what we said. I remember once having a conversation with a stripper. who's like, it was the most random conversation. And I said to her, I said, why do you put your clothes back on? And it was just a joke, right? Because like, we all of us are in this club and here we are for a bachelor party. and this person dresses and then undresses and then dresses and then undresses. And I just said as a joke, I said, why do you put your clothes back on? It would be more efficient to keep them off. And she said, yes, but you'll be surprised,

I think I won't articulate as well as she said it, but she said, you'll be surprised at how the men on turned on by us being naked. They're turned on by the idea of us becoming naked at some point. And she was like, that's essentially what we're playing with. And now when you say it like that, I go, oh yeah, it sounds like the same thing. It's the attraction. The obstacle is the clothing, and whether or not. it will come off or when it will come off. And that creates the excitement. Correct. That's a good analogy,

Of course. Whose bachelor party was it? Oh, what do you mean? This is the most common thing, of course. It's like, you know, people are like, bachelor party. It's actually more common in the US. I don't think I ever got. invited to a bachelor party at a strip club in South Africa. Now, what do they do? I think it's more it's more of a. you have a what we call a bride, like a barbecue. And you, you hang out. But I don't think it's a it's funny actually, now that you're asking me,

it isn't seen as an ending of a life. Does that make sense? So I find I find a lot of American bachelor parties are. Well, this is the last time you get to explore sex. and craziness and eroticism and all of it. So you better enjoy it. One last ride. That's right. You're about to enter the marital cell. There you go. Yeah. And your monastic life. But I don't remember anyone saying that in South Africa. I don't remember anybody saying you're going to get married. So, no more sex for you. Kiss your sex life.

That was never. I don't think it's ever even been framed like that. It was more. It's more the coming together of families. That's what people focus on. They go, oh, now you are welcoming another person. into your family or the other side is becoming part of your family. I think that's so it may. A strip club wouldn't make sense for combining families. I want to go back to the laundromat. I love the place. I really, I think the laundromat or or other places like it. The bookstore,

the coffee bar, the, train station, the train itself. I mean, there's so many places for that friction. Yeah, I think that that's where I'm positioning myself today. I'm placing myself at the door. I want you to come outside. Do you know one of the to come outside and go to any of these places? The statistic that really stayed with me recently is an article called. the The Antisocial Century by Derek Thompson.

And he's 74% of food that is. cooked in a restaurant is not eaten on the premises. That's the new number. And that woke me up. An increase of 30%. of people eating alone in the restaurant. Now, eating is one of the oldest worldwide gatherings. Yeah, traditions of coming together with others. It's friction of every sort. And the fact that we are going to order from the restaurant.

and then bring it home and eat it many times alone. Yeah, that's a problem. So this is all I'm going to do now. From now on, is the future of relationship getting people to not feel so lonely, so isolated, so locked up in their houses, so defeated by relationships. Yeah. And so, and so transferring their expectations. for algorithmic perfection into their relationships.

Oh, they want people to become perfect and predictable, like the technologies. and we are, by our very nature, unpredictable and imperfect. And that is the part of the beauty of. And in human beings, it's exactly that. If there is no obstacle, there is no story that's of any interest, let alone comedy. And I. think that we sing something that is quite. it's more important than we even let until this friction piece.

Yeah. You know, because that's the plot. You tell stories and they have a plot, and the plot is built. by all this in unpredictability. So be it in the in the sexual plot or be it in the comedy plot. or beat in the relationship, but it's really important. What are we going to do otherwise? What's going to happen to us? I think the difficulty, though, is. realizing the value of it in the moment. I think that's that's what's hard.

There's, a fantastic, professor. I think he actually has a course. on happiness or fulfillment or something of the sort. Swedish professor, I think his name is Tallinn, Michael Devlin. And one of the things they found was. if you asked most people, most, most, most people, what they would like to eat in the future, he broke it into three carrots. Ice cream and insects. And he was referring to like these little insects that you could buy at Disneyland.

Apparently I'd never heard of them but it's like a chocolate covered insect. and it's, you know, it's, it's all the rage and people buy them. But he found that there was a large number of people who never ate them. A lot of people bought them but never ate them. And so he broke it down into carrots, insects and ice cream. And in all the research, what he found was, if you ask most people what they want to eat. for their next meal or for the meal in ten years, they say, carrots. I should be eating more carrots, right? If you ask most people what they what they wish.

they had eaten, it was insects. And then if you ask most people what they want to eat now they say ice cream. And it was just a. beautiful, simple way of looking at the way we avoid friction. He went. We know theoretically what we want. for ourselves in the future, what will be the healthiest or the best. We also know that we will regret not taking the road less traveled. You know the crazy idea? The moment that didn't necessarily make sense.

But in the moments, for the most part, we are more predisposed to choosing the immediate relief and the. And so when I think about friction, I think of it in the same way. If you, as is to say. dating apps, you go, Trevor, don't use a dating app. I know myself and a lot of people would say, yeah, I agree with you, Esther, because in the future, I think to myself, I would love to meet someone organically, etc. in the past I would have loved to taken the chance, tried something different, explored beyond my you said what was it?

Culture, religion, race, all these things. But in the moment, oh, it's so easy to just swipe. It's so because it's the ice cream and we never feel good after the ice cream. And then we always regret the ice cream, but we always fall back into the. And so that friction like, I love that you positioning yourself there. because I think but friction is connected. I think to the big issue of the moment. Yeah. Which is uncertainty. because friction is.

what makes you have to experiment, deal with the unexpected. Right? Deal with the unpredictable, deal with the. the lessons of making all kinds of bad choices. It helps you deal with uncertainty. Dealing with uncertainty is what helps you deal with anxiety. That's oh wait wait wait wait, say that again. Dealing with uncertainty is what helps you deal with things. Yes. In what way? Because if you become more,

adept at dealing with the unknown, the unexpected, the unpredictable, then you develop a sense of confidence. It's what you just described. When you get to a show and you had to cancel something or the flight was late, you have a stance that basically says, I know what I can control. I know to handle the unknown and the unpredictable, and I know that it will end in my comedy because it will become part of the story. Now I'm annoyed. Maybe, but I do know that.

you don't get completely frazzled. You absorb it, you have a shock absorber, and that shock absorber is what allows you to not be as anxious about the unknown, about mortality, about the unpredictable, all of that. You know, having all the answers in the palm of your hand is not making us. less anxious. It's making us more anxious because we no longer. making bad choices, discovering something, realizing we don't like it, we begin to expect.

immediate, perfect answers. for everything and relationships and life. Our existence doesn't operate this way in many aspects. Some of them do, but the majority of things are way more complex than that. So this piece of uncertainty, matched with all the changes. that are happening at full speed and making us very, very fraught. We. And that to me, because everybody wants to talk.

about the loneliness epidemic, but people are not necessarily addressing what I think is the other piece, which is how do we deal with so much uncertainty all at once? And when you can't deal with uncertainty. and you don't have the resilience to help you with the anxiety, then you don't know how to deal with frustration, conflict, differences. And then you become more intolerant. And then you go to look for people who sell you certainty. And that comes with certain political regimes as well.

You want somebody who's going to help you feel more certain. I'm going to solve this for you. So to me, that's all interconnected and that's happening. on a geopolitical level, and it's happening in relationships. And so to just look at. the dilemmas of mating in captivity is not enough anymore for me. I think there's something bigger happening that is touching. at the core of our existence. Every research tells you that you only live longer, and you live better.

when you have meaningful relationships, and people are having less and less of it. What is the system that that made you this way? Like I've always wondered, like, what was Little Esther like when, you know, when when your parents. would talk about you, how were you with other kids or how were you in the house? Was your world certain, or was it more uncertain? Or my world was certain, but my parents world was a world that was completely decimated.

So predictions. So I think it's two different things. On the one hand, you know, one of the most important aspects of my, my background is that I am a child of two Holocaust survivors, and my parents were the sole survivors of their entire family trees. So my mother was the youngest of seven. My father was the youngest of nine. Nobody, nobody, nobody survived but my parents.

So they definitely dealt with uncertainty. And they dealt with the unknown. And they dealt with a world where you have no idea where kindness will come from. and where order will be restored and where you manage, you will come back and all of that. So I have all of this in my background. Is each spent four years in concentration camps, many camps, they were slaves, basically. I think that all of that is extremely important.

in how I look at the world, how I look at. who is who is good and who is not right, who thinks of others, who doesn't, who can be kind? How much is our ideology defining who we are versus. how much does our behavior in our actions actually define who we are? All of these big questions. But then I think, in addition, whenever I see dogma or. groupthink or mass psychology.

or crowds, I tend to think there must be something else. There must be another way. Is this really so? Or is this just so because that many people think like it's. And I think it's the combination of those things. I act very fearlessly, but I am not. But I act fearlessly. Well, so I guess you are courageously then. Yeah. That's interesting. I never I never saw it like that. But. Yeah, but then because that's because that's what courage is, right? Acting in spite of the fear.

I think. I think of myself as, as counter phobic. Do you know that term. No. So you can be phobic. You can be fearful. And counter phobic is when you actually do the things that frightened you the most. How do. you find the balance between that and living life. with a reckless abandon that causes danger to you and others, because something scares you for the right reasons? Don't like? Yes. Like like when you were hitchhiking, you didn't go with that one person.

because something scared you in some way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you always want to keep judgment. You have a healthy dose of skepticism. You don't believe what everybody tells you. People will say this in different ways. They'll be like, go, go to the thing that scares you. And then I like I mean, you know, and I've been public about this, but I always think to myself, I go, I wish my mom was a little more scared. of domestic abuse because then I wonder what it would have changed in my family. And I talk to her about this, you know, and I'm glad I spoke about it publicly,

because people have even spoke about it publicly as well. Now with me, they go, yeah, I. when do you allow the. fear to control you or to inform your decision? And how do you know when it's a good feel, when it's a bad fear like this is. you don't always know. I mean, you you have a sense. You look around, you ask other people for a reality check. Yeah. When I am very worried about things, I ask for a reality check. I also know that in my stomach lives a really long history of, of of fear.

and, and, and that I can have very strong. reactions, you know, to, to situations. But I also know that that. the legacy of this is precedes me. And then what do I do with it is a different thing. But I think, when do you know if your fear is valid? It's a fear. So what helps you with fears is grounding yourself in reality.

How do you trust reality? Generally, it. helps to have other people around you to help you. You know, am I? Where is what I'm seeing? What you're seeing too. I mean, okay, is is a check right? And the check is not oh, is not always done alone. You're not always the best person to actually know, or least for yourself. You can be perfectly perceptive for others, but for yourself, you don't necessarily know. because you have all this sense a lot of things. And football. We say, man on my does that. I've always loved that is it's one of the reasons I love playing football.

Yeah. Soccer or football? Soccer. Soccer I mean that's you know, but football. Yeah. Football. One of the things I love about football is I always go for me, it's it's a perfect allegory for life because it's one you are. You are the individual. Everything you do individually matters to you and to the team. However, you cannot do anything without the team. and things will happen because of the team. So you're part of the system. And so it almost ties in those two ideas where one is completely.

what am I doing as a player and why did I do that? Or why am I going to do that? But the other one is you have to do it in relation to others. You have to understand why you so you can kick a great pass, but if your teammate doesn't reach it, there was no point in kicking it, you know. And and this one, when you talk about your community, you just say man on or man, and it means you're being marked. by something that you may not be aware of, and the people around you can observe. you better in the situation than you can, because you have your blind spots,

and good teammates will always tell you what's happening around you. They'll say man on. They'll say time does say you've got time. And it just means you got time to think. You can breathe on the ball turn, you can turn your body. You, you know. And I love those small moments where you are. reminded that you're not in it alone, even though you are alone in that, in that little microcosm. of a moment, you're alone. It's a beautiful image. It really describes it very, very well. You there is what you can do, and then there is.

how other people can help you do what you're about to do. Yeah. And then how what you do will help what others need from you. Because that's the way the team I think it's a great image. I it fits my thinking, my thinking very much. When I think of your parents, I think to myself, and this is this is purely anecdotal. I have some friends, obviously, because they are young. It might be their grandparents who, survived the Holocaust or escaped it. And I've often found that there will be two groups, and this is purely anecdotal.

And I'm you know, I know I'm distilling it down, but I'll have some of my Jewish friends, like they'll go, my grandparents taught me to be afraid of everything, question. everything, run away at the first because because of what we experience. Then there's other ones will go, no, they've taught me to fight harder to be. in this. And there's no like one correct one. But I, I think to myself, you could have had parents. who wouldn't tell you, the hitchhiker wouldn't let you go. I didn't tell them. Oh, you didn't tell them? You don't. Please. Okay. No. Okay.

No. And certainly not that I was traveling with a boyfriend either. Okay. No, no, the story is, is that the story is making a distinction. is very important because I, I've often described that. I grew up in a community that was all Holocaust survivors. They were not Belgian born. They all arrived. My parents also when they arrived to Belgium after the war, from the concentration camps, they were refugees. and they stayed illegal refugees for another five years. So this is not just the war, it's everything that follows.

I happened to be born later. My brother is born in 46. I'm born in 58. So I just arrived when my parents. were finally beginning to kind of settle themselves. But I often told that in my community and what I'm going to describe. I saw in my community. But I think you can apply this to many other communities, and many other circumstances surrounding trauma. They were people who did not die,

and there were people who came back to life. Oh, damn. The people who did not die. lived very tattered to the ground, often fearful, often afraid to take risks, often afraid to enjoy. Because when you enjoy, you cannot be vigilant. You cannot be worried and joyful at the same time. You cannot experience pleasure and fear at the same time. unless it is baked into a certain kind of pleasure system,

but not the way that these people were experiencing it. And they often lived with curtains that were kind of pull down, and you entered their homes and there was a kind of a morbidity. They survived, but they were not necessarily alive. And this is an image this is not that anybody discussed it later, but I would feel it when I would go to the homes of my friends. And then you had another group and they came back to life. and I am very blessed to have been part of parents like that.

My two parents, they had not survived for nothing. They didn't starve for years for nothing. And they we discussed many, many times what made them want to continue to live and move. How did they get up in the morning? Minus something degrees and and walk with newspaper around their feet. and go work in those factories and be moved from one camp to another? All of that, and they were going to enjoy life. It wasn't just they were going to enjoy life with a vengeance.

The biggest thing they could do was actually enjoy life. Enjoy life with a vengeance. You understand? It's a beautiful phrase. I think what I took and this way was very, very young. I had the notion that I. my life will be meaningful when my life will be big, not fame or things like that, but I will do important things. I will have a rich life in all kinds of ways. Yeah. And, I'll tell you a. very, very interesting anecdote that happened to me this year.

And I would often. So that was a thing I had. I'm going to I'm not I'm the I'm a miracle child. I arrived, you know, two years after my parents tried for me to be born. I have this whole legacy and all this that people at my feet. And I'm going to live in a way. that's going to kind of give them something. So that's a piece also of why I you know what?

What drives me. Yeah. But I this year I was invited. by a German media group to, be a guest of honor at a dinner. at the Pudding Museum in Warsaw. And amongst many other guests was also the foreign minister of Poland. And I had to say something. So I got up. I had no idea what was going to come out of my mouth. And I said, you know, when I was a child, I used to lie in bed.

and I would think, one day I'll go places. and they won't tell me Jews not allowed. They let me in. But not only would they let me in, but they will tell me you are welcome. And not only would they tell me you are welcome, but one day they will tell me you are the guest of honor. We want you here. And here I am today, invited by the Germans at the Jewish Museum of Warsaw.

in the presence of the Polish Foreign Minister. I guess I actually manifested this dream. And that this was like. I didn't know if it was the adult in me talking or the eight year old in me, but the room was. silent. Wow. You know, it's just like. it was right there all in front of me, but I didn't. It was, here I am amongst you all, and I'm invited.

I'm accepted. And, and we can start a new relationship. and we can repair, and we can learn to respect each other, and we can learn to honor each other's presence. And, And that's what I want to do. It reminds me of something my mom often says. It's the reason I guess she goes to temple. But you'll go. She says, like she feels like Jewish people and black people are natural allies.

because unfortunately, there's a shared trauma. And, I forget the other word that she uses, but. but it's sort of like ostracization, that they can all relate to. And it's interesting you just saying that, you know, unfortunately, a lot of it. can be applied to many black people, you know, the dream to go somewhere, to be. welcomed, to be brought in, not just be allowed in, but to be welcomed. in, to be seen as part of, to be it's you know,

that's why I tell it to you in my version. But I think these are stories that belong to many other groups. and many other people who have been. Excluded. Yeah. Rejected. Annihilated. I mean, nobody has the Olympics on victimhood. Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this?

When you look at, I don't want to say the way we are today because I, because I, I learn the more I travel, the more you realize that. there's no myopic lens on what the world is feeling. But there's no denying in Europe, especially in in the United States, there's a lot less thinking of what could be, and really, really sitting back insular, like, this is the way it was. This is, this is the how as somebody who thinks about systems,

where do you think we are in that journey? Because it seems like the journey has, you know, a sort of natural curve. that it follows in history. If you look at the history of cultures and societies, it's when you do this, I would say it's periods of expansion and periods of contraction. Yeah. That is the movement I see. And I think that we lived. for a long time in a system that was more contracted.

I'm going to give it to you from the point of view of relationships. Okay. For a long time, people lived in tribes, communities, villages, but relations. And they still do. In the majority of the world, mind you. And the relationships are organized around beauty and obligation, around loyalty and community. And there's a lot of clarity. I mean, there's been polarization always. There's churches for each other, tribes for each other. It's not like we haven't been polarized, but.

it was slightly different because every one of these. hierarchical structures, communities and religions. provided people with a good sense of clarity and certainty. What you didn't have is personal freedom of personal expression. We moved with the modern era and with to a system of relationships. where, for the first time, we began to switch from duty and obligation. We moved to choice, an option.

And from an. and basically at the center now of relationships. is the individual in search of a community, not an individual. in the community in search of personal freedom and expression. And you have more freedom. than you've ever had, but you're more alone than you've ever been, and you are. crippled with uncertainty and with self-doubt. because you have a tremendous amount of decisions to make. When you have freedom,

you can decide so many aspects of your life today. that were never available talking in the West primarily. And with that, the burdens of the self have never been heavier, and it's. all ruled by the rule of authenticity, meaning being true to myself. Now, how do I know what is true to myself. with such absolute certainty that is really exhausting. It's difficult. So you add to that. the speed with which technology is transforming us.

This is the one of the biggest revolutions that we are going to go through. And people are dizzy and they are anxious and they are uncertain. And we know that anxiety and trauma constricts our imagination. And so we go into a contraction again. Yeah. And that we are looking for people to give us some relief and some certainty. And autocracy comes with that. And that's the motion that we are in now. So we become less welcoming, we become less tolerant.

We start to see other people as threat, what they take away rather than what they bring. And this is not the first time by far. I mean, it's really important that this moment. to listen to historians as well, so that we get a sense that. but it hasn't happened with that kind of speed and that kind of intensity, maybe ever or at least, you know, when the industrial. when we had the agrarian one before. But I think that that's what we are in.

And I went to sort by last week, and I did the conversation. with, with the futurist Amy Webb. And, you know, she was giving the predictions of the future and, and. it half the slides, not half the slide. And many was like, this is happening and you don't need people anymore. And this is happening and you don't need people anymore. And I'm and everybody's clapping. and I'm thinking, these people are cheering their own extinction. Yeah. I mean, what is happening to us, not just our own extinction?

I think we're also cheering our own purposelessness. Yeah. And that's that's. someone in a thousand years is going to look back and go, wait, you're. telling me they went into a building with other people? They sat at a desk, they punched in numbers, sent those numbers to other people. The other people read them, sent it back to them. And this was their purpose. This was them. And they'd be like, that can't be right. It seems like slavery must have been slavery. Well, why would they do this? But that purpose is but its purpose.

with the spiritual dimension, its purpose with the transcendence. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Which is not the most powerful. It's not a prayer, only a pragmatic purpose. Yeah. I think we erasing it with, with a lot of technology. is where we are, where we're going. You don't have to do it. You don't have to. I'm. I'm sure you. You've seen this. And I say this to my friends all the time. You know, one of my best friends just had twins. And if him and his wife have gone through. this whole journey now of finding a nanny and finding this and finding that, fine.

And I remember laughing one day and I said to them, I said, do you ever think it's do you ever think of how funny it is. that we live in a world that has tricked us. into living alone, but then buying our community back, you know, you're buying every element of your community. Who is a babysitter? If not your sister, your friend, your uncle, your grandparent? You're the who is that sort of babysitter? I, by the way, I didn't grow up with. I didn't even know that was a concept growing up for me as Trevor.

Because it's people. People babysit. You're right. To the airport where there's there's no Uber. It was. Whoever is the. Can you take me to the airport? Oh, I don't want to take you to the. But I guess I have to take it to the airport. But you know what? I think I'll take it next time. I think it was Scott Galloway. who said on one of our episodes, which I really loved, he. he described it as garbage time. And I mean, I know you wouldn't be so crass as to say it that way, but I, I appreciated what he meant. He said it wasn't the moments where he had planned magic where magic happened.

It's when he didn't. And I think of that airport ride with your friend. You hate the friction. You hate the idea, and yet that's the right way. You learn a new thing about them. You connect on something different. You laugh at something new, you know? And I think all of this technology is just like. it's just eroding a lot of that purpose, even in the smallest ways. Just the purpose of, like, I'm the person who always helped Esther to do this. Now there's a robot lifting things for her.

You know how nice it was, I think for many people. to say, my neighbor helps me put up shelves. So I when I think of that, I go, yeah, it's natural. And we're going and we're growing. But I am less worried about. jobs per se, and I'm more worried about purpose. I think without purpose it's very difficult to get out of bed. It's very difficult to even know why you tolerate friction, because friction without purpose is now just torture. Because purpose is is the essential dimension of meaning.

I mean, we are creatures of meaning, and we need to know that we matter, and we need to know that we exist in the psyches of others. And we need to know that when we're not there, others still think of us. And so we have an experience of object constancy. that I live inside of you, and you live inside of me. And that whole intersubjective peace is essential. to relationships, and that's the peace you do not have with an AI. You can have a ton of different things with the machine, but the machine doesn't.

have subjectivity, and that doesn't mean that it doesn't yet have subjectivity. It does, doesn't it? You it's a one way street, right? And to learn to relate to the other is. essential in relationship, not just to learn to relate to yourself, you know, not just thinking about, as you say. That's when you said yet. No, because usually I get you no no no no no no no no no. The reason I laughed when you said yet. is because I think of the ultimate conclusion. If we're honest about where a path goes.

All right. People are selling AI now and then they go. The ultimate goal is not just AI, it's intelligent AI. And it's not just intelligence, artificial intelligence, generative. And it is predictive and it is and it is and it is right. And I was watching a video yesterday or the other day where it was like, I think it was Nvidia showing off like a robot. vacuuming like a house. And now when you said yet, I think to myself,

wouldn't it be ironic and almost predictable. that we would pursue a world where we create a thing that works. like us, moves like us, starts to speak like us, starts to think like us? And then at some point that thing goes, yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to vacuum your house. I have dreams, I have aspirations, I want to go hitchhike. I want to go hitchhike. I don't care that I'm a robot. I also have dreams. I want to see what the world has for me.

A little frisson, you know, I and I. And then I wonder, what are we going to do when we get there? God, I can't go as far. But I do know that we are relational creatures. That's part of the purpose. So you don't, you know, I mean, sometimes you do things that matter to you, but sometimes what matters to you is related to how it affects others. Oh, wait, say that again, please. Sometimes you do things that matter to you, but it's exactly.

what your image of the soccer. I kick the ball. Yeah, but that ball will actually have a future. that is determined by how other people catch it. Oh, I like this. It's the same image. Can I tell you? I'm just noticing there's a huge gap in sports relationship psychology. And I think you could. No, no, I know, I'm telling you, you could. You gave me a good image. No, but I'm serious. If we could find, like, a gap, I think there's a lot of people.

and men stereotypically. Yes, who love sports, who I think would be able to see. relationships and and like psychology in a different way. If you, if you applied it through that lens. But you have to translate that for me. I can't do it. Great. Let's give you principle because this way you've described I saw the ball, I sort of I saw I mean, I happen to know soccer, so it's easy for me. I saw the guy play and I saw the response. And I know how people, you know, you're you're running, but there is somebody who was telling you, yes, you know, who to kick it to.

And you are in a complete system of interdependence. But while you are also in a state of autonomy, yes. The it's people think that when you see interdependence, you've abdicated. yourself. You haven't. You are completely in charge. But what will determine the outcome of your thing. is not just this, but determined by you. It's everyone in relation to somebody else. Yes. And that I, I, I think that there is something. happening at this moment that is eroding this.

And, you know, I could say the future of love. I could see the future of connection. I could say the future of how, you know, can we still. turn conflict into connection? Wait, how how do you think. how do you think it is and will affect romantic relationships? Because I know I also read I know a lot of people who say, oh, I'm just happy and I'm not even mocking them. They really say I'm just happy with my partner. and it's just the two of us, and we get cozy and it's wonderful. And you know, that's not you don't need the male voice of change. The change is really happening that people are actually less and less.

in relationships, less and less in romantic relationships. Yeah. Less sex, less connection, less dreams with others. It's that it? There's a there's a kind of a collective withdrawal. There's also a disillusionment because there has been such a kind of a, a. what if I lose calls an emotional capitalism? You know, it's like the commodification of people, the kind of market mentality applied to, to your intimate life.

that has been really challenging to people. That's partly on the apps, not the only place, but it's really taken people down a notch. They just can't take it anymore. And, so I think every study looks that comes back talking about. from the sex recession to the intimacy recession. to the fact that young people are less and less in relationships. in romantic relationships, but they also have less friendship.

Yeah, people have fewer and fewer friendships. There's a loss of social capital. that people have no one to turn to in a time of crisis, or to confide to. that friends on social is not the same as friendship in life. Yeah, and all of that. I mean, there is there is really an impoverishment of connection. And at the same time, we know that emotional health. is essential to overall health. So you can't separate the changes in relationships. with the kind of mental health issues. that are emerging, that are connected to the questions of longevity.

I mean, these things are, to use the word, we keep coming back to interdependent. So how do we get people to relate to each other more, to have more connection, to come out of their house, to to go to the laundromats of this moment? I think, is really the question that all the people who work in. my field are currently questioning. So I haven't studied any of it, nor do I think I'm an expert.

But if I was to throw in an amateur observation, I would argue. there are two things that I think are, contributing to it in a major way. I was with my brother and we're sitting there. myself, my brother, and one of my best friends, and we're sitting together in front of the TV and, my friend, he goes, I want you guys to watch the show. And he puts the show on, and the three of us start watching. and then my brother goes very quickly. He's 20. He goes like, man is boring. I think he's exact phrasing was, this is ass.

That's what he said, actually. And my friend said, I don't care. We're going to watch it. Just watch the episode. It's really it's going to get good. and I'll never my brother went like, I don't know. And he pulled out his phone and then he went immediately. he was just on social media and I'm sitting there. and then we started speaking about it, which was fun. I said, man, do you realize how crazy it is. that there was a time when you couldn't do what you just did? And not only could you not do it, I argue it would have made the evening.

a little bit better because you would watch the thing that we're watching. sometimes because your parents are watching it, because the TV's on it, whatever it was, and because of that, you were connected. Even if you were connected in the thing. that you didn't like, which I know seems like a paradox, but you were. So at the end of it you would go, that was boring, but you had experienced. boring with us as opposed to experiencing entertainment alone. Yeah. You know, and I that's the first part I think of.

I know that as Trevor, I can, I can sit here and pontificate. and sort of romanticize a laundromat, all this beautiful world, and then. someone will say to me like, yeah, so you can afford to spend two hours. And I like because while the laundry is going, I've got to be doing this, and I've got to be doing that, and I've got to prepare this for tomorrow for work, and I've got to get that report ready. And my kids need this and my that needs that. And my and I think that's the other thing that I noticed a lot of people are. struggling with is people are trying to save as much time as possible.

to sort of plow it into the, as you say, the productivity. side, the, the, you know, the, the, the, the, transactional side. I could be using this time to do something productive. I could be using this time to get something I could be using. And I that's what a lot of people say. I can't afford to do this. So I'd love to know, like because you think about all of this, but I think, do you think there's. do you think there's an answer on the other side of it? I mean, I think that it's a very, very valid argument, but we're talking about something slightly different.

For example, you do shows. Yeah, where people come to laugh. Right. There's no purpose. So to speak. You don't accomplish anything in the transactional sense, right? You know, they they're not thinking about time when they come to you, they decide to surrender. I mean, there's two things. People singing together and people laughing together, right? These are extraordinary social synchronization.

techniques, you know, of of how you bring people together. And do you feel like you have less people coming out these days? No, I think it's the opposite, actually. I think in music, I, I don't know, in comedy, but I'm pretty certain all live in. life is experiencing its best performance ever. Like people that coming out more than ever. So to this person I could say, you know, I completely understand that in your. in your life. and in your reality these two hours, you have a ton of other things to do. We not are discussing this.

Find yourself every once in a while. the show, the performance, the singalong, the place to go. and and laugh together with others. because these things, have in many ways they've always existed, but now they exist in the in the replacement of religious experiences. This is what people used to do. And they would congregate. They didn't necessarily come together to love, but they congregate. So.

and they went on the steps of the church and then they had comedy there. Right? So these are new iterations of things that have accompanied civilization forever. Find your ways to do this. Suspend time, have moments. If it's not the Sabbath, then have it be Sunday. And if it's on Sunday, have it be Saturday night concert or yeah, yeah, but you need these experiences, these experiences that are more. esthetic, more collective, more interactive, and they don't accomplish anything else besides the power of that congregating.

And I think you are and you and all the people who do your art, you know, it's I've. never done I've never in my, I go to shows, but I don't often go. to I've never seen you live, for example, I've never seen many shows like that. Pretty fantastic. I'm going tonight to my first comedy raid. Really? Yes. Oh, that's going to be fun. You know, it's. You hear what you're saying at the beacon, and I. I'm really excited to go and I'm going to listen to my mobile.

Yeah. Oh, Mike. Sure. Yeah. Yes. And because I've never been to a, you know where because I always thought, humor is the hardest thing to translate language wise as well. And, and then I feel like I don't get it. I don't get the joke. Well, you think you won't get the joke? I often thought when I would go to a Comedy Cellar, I often feel like, this is. like I'm not. laughing at the same things, but I am back and going. I'm very excited because I, I've understood recently.

I've had such joy singing with people, and now I want to go ahead and laugh. with people. Yeah, I want to have those kinds of experiences. And to me, that's my answer to the personhood. Doesn't have time to schmooze in the laundromat. It's okay, I get it. Everybody has a different reality, but every person who used to have a very busy life and got up with the sun. and went to sleep with the animals, had that time in their life, but it was regulated through primarily through religion.

Now we have to find secular versions. Well, that's what that's what you've made me realize then. This conversation is, I think a lot of the conversations. we're having in society are thinking of it through the individual lens, saying, you get out there, you do, you do, you do. But what you just made me realize, what we have in this conversation is. it is a lot easier to do that when the we's doing it. So you never felt like you were in the wrong place when you were at church.

In fact, you felt the inverse. Why aren't you a church? Why didn't you come to church? What do you mean you're missing church? And to your point, I mean, what are you doing? Technically, you don't have to go there. You can pray at home. You have the Bible at home. You can do it another day. But because the we was there and you weren't, think of Halloween. I'm always intrigued now that you say it by. how people who are very busy. will still have to leave the office because it's Halloween, because they're kids and because.

and you're like, this is this is the most ridiculous thing ever. You're dressing up like a witch, but you, like, I can't miss it. I can't know I've got to get I got to leave. Yeah, I'm taking my kids trick or treating and and because society has accepted. Halloween as this concept, your boss doesn't say, are you crazy? You're going to leave the office early because your your kids got to dress up. and go get candy. That's crazy. But you honestly, you're making me realize now that the the so that you're. contained in defines how comfortable you are doing or not doing the thing.

Because it's much harder to have discipline alone. and to know when to stop. You know, now you it's like on the one hand. you have the freedom to decide. what do you want to eat. when you want to eat, when you want to sleep, how much you want to sleep, when to exercise, all. But on the other hand, it's a lot harder to have to create all these disciplines. by yourself when you have collectively synchronize those things. Yeah, all the stores are closed on a certain day, then that's it. You know, these are the three times a day or the five times a day that you need to pray.

These are the times that you need to have sex. because it's mandated by your religion. People who are Orthodox. have often a lot more sex than people who are secular, right? You know, because there is the it's not left to do. I feel like it. It's I should I have to it's part of what's expected of me. And there is something very important about this, of course, in that system, if you don't want to go, you don't have the freedom not to go. We don't. It's not disordered. Yeah, but the integration of these two poles is really important in, in the,

in the equilibrium of a society, what is a must and what is a want. What is a we and what is an I? This is true in every relationship. This is true in the relationship. between individuals and their family or their community. Yeah. And it's true as a whole in societies. And at this moment we are off balance. So if you were creating a perfect world, in fact, we played this game on the podcast one day, you should join us. I think you'd have a lot of fun. We call it if I Ruled the World and it's, it's it's the idea is you rule the world.

You can change it however the way you'd like to change it. But it's nothing boring, like, you know, everyone gets free health care or that it's like, because we sort of agree. It's more like one of the more recent ones I had was I said, if I ruled the world, I would make it that everybody thoughts that they're having. during sex is heard by the other person that they're having sex with. Yes. Oh, no, it failed terribly.

Yeah, but that's not such a good proposition. Yeah. It failed. It's the. I don't need you to tell me it failed. Okay? It failed terribly. My reasoning was good, though, and that's oftentimes what we're actually. trying to get into is the reason versus the idea. I'm very I wouldn't know how to answer this if I would. Oh. But it's fun. I think it's like. But it's, because I think it gets it. It's not about like, knowing certain. I know how I would answer yes, but it's not. I'm going to start on the conceptual level. I think this thing I just described, how do you balance the I and the way?

Okay. Yeah. Me and the other. us, them all these divisions, the majority of these issues. in relationships for sure are. it's complex in relationships of two people. If there is a, complicated question that can have two as two. polarities, it's very easy to take half of the story. I take one side of the issue and I put the other side on you.

And you could do this with should the kid have a pacifier, as you could do this about sex as you could do this. I mean, it doesn't matter. The issue. Polarization doesn't have much to do with the thing that you're actually. differing about. It's the fact that you've taken the complexity. and you have parceled it out. If you were a lone, you would have to deal with both parts of it yourself. Oh damn.

right. Do I want to clean or do I not one of clean? Do I want to get up? Do I want to exercise? Do I want to preserve? You would have to negotiate inside of you the two sides of the complex. of the complexity of this issue, because there are different sides. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you would have to figure out yourself, do I work or do I take off? Do I want kids? Do I not want kids? Do I want to be in a relationship? But when you're in a relationship, it becomes. I want a and you want B, and now let's fight.

And this piece about how you have to negotiate. the complexity and you can't resolve it by just picking one side. But it is all about integrating these polarities is, I think, what makes us either in a good relationship. or not, or in a good society or not for that matter. The opposite of that is cleavages, intolerance, conflict, disconnect, polarized fashion, all the words that are rampant these days.

So am I hearing you correctly if I say that. essentially what you're saying is. we need to still be able. to grapple with both parts of the conversation. Yeah. Do I want traditional? Do I want innovation? Yes. But you must be both exactly right. We want Europe, tradition, history, the past, the timelessness, the Sunday. Yeah. Or do we want the United States efficient, pragmatic? Everything is open 24 hours, seven days a week.

A as if it's that or that. It's not. We need we appreciate this and we appreciate that. So how do we bring these things together? You know, complex problems don't get solved. There are paradoxes that you manage. It's like a it's almost like I'm picturing slide as well. You're saying this is going you might raise a slider and say, I think 70% relaxation right now, 30% not, but not on off. Exactly.

You know, it's like you're talking about. like dimmer switches for our for our opinions versus on all switches. And it's an it's a both. And that changes constantly versus an either or. Because these things are there are too complicated to make it an either or. tic tac I all of this this or that. You know the old system, the new system. No there is you want this, but there are consequences to it. So can we check on it then?

We want some of that, but we don't want all of what it was. Yeah. And this is a very different way of resolving the big issues. of our life, of our society, of our, of our relationships. And I don't know how one helps to shift that, but that would be. if somebody can help me, you know, do this at scale. I want to be on the lead of that. Okay. I'll apply my mind to it. I might not be the person, but I might bump into the person. So I'll you let me know.

You do you know what I'm saying? I completely I completely understand what you're saying. And I think, you know, not not to completely level blame, but I do think if we start with, let's just say just start with the algorithm. So, I don't know. if you've seen this recently, there are a few, social media companies. or one might not not even be social media in its inception. And essentially what they've proposed is building algorithms from scratch.

They go forget villains, don't think of Facebook as a villain, don't think of Instagram, don't think of anyone as a villain. Rather think of it as an outcome of what they tried to create. and that that is what it is. So they designed an algorithm. What do you mean an outcome of what is right. So, so, you know, sometimes we go, that person is bad because this happened. We don't think to ourselves that happened because of what they did, but. their goodness or badness isn't really part of it. The algorithm was was an example of this. When they originally made a lot of these algorithms, they designed the algorithms.

to maximize getting people's attention and to keep people engaged, and which seems like the right thing to do regardless of the product you're making. Right. So you have a restaurant? No, no, make the food taste as good as possible. So that people will enjoy the food. But we also know this balance. You can also fill the food with cocaine. People really enjoy the food. But what is the outcome going to be. You can now things like food have a longer history a longer tradition.

So if you talk to somebody who's cooked and knows their food, they will tell you through the history of that food that people learned. Why not to add this? Why whites add that? Oh, because then over time it does this to you, right? Digestion, moods, you name it. Tech I think is still because it's in its infancy. It doesn't have the legacy of 400 years where you can trace it through. and say like, oh yes, that is why, you know, this algorithm exists like this. It doesn't have four centuries of knowledge.

So they went, it's all about attention. Let's make it attention. Then people will love it. But then the attention was what they call like the car crash. Attention, economy. People pay attention to car crashes. People always look at a car crash. Almost no one can ignore it. The algorithm then went, oh, that gives you attention. So more car crashes, more car crashes, more car crashes, more car crashes. Right. And so they talk about how the algorithm then did its job. indiscriminately and put us in that position. A lot of the position that we're not completely.

it's accelerate said a lot of what we're experiencing. And so now there's this new idea of creating an algorithm. the other way around. And so, for instance, the other way around being being it's not about a car crash. We won't feed you. What will keep you hooked in a negative way. We won't show you the opinion that is going to inflame you the most. We won't show it no, we will connect you with the people who you know. and who you follow. Which seems like a small thing, but apparently it's big.

A lot of people follow people that they don't ever see. because the algorithm has determined that it's not as interesting. Strangers are more interesting, new is more interesting. In fact, some of them. You would love this. I'll send you some of this, work that they've shown some of the, like, social media sites would even not show you your spouse. or partner on your feed because they've realized people. very seldom interact with it because you know them.

However, it will show you your ex or it will. This is one you'll love. It will show you the person. that your partner is lingering on. Did you get them? Say yes. Yes. So you will find yeah, you find you in a relationship with the person. Let's say they liked the picture. You will see. the picture that your partner or spouse liked, because the algorithm realizes that you linger on these for longer.

Now, it's not malicious. It's not even trying to do something. But as Charlie Munger used to say, you show me the incentive. and I'll show you the outcome. It is trying to keep your attention. So now people are talking about trying to create an algorithm that's based around. what we hope to achieve, as opposed to circumstance and saying, what is the connection we're looking for? What are some of the behaviors we're trying to model? What are some of the connections we're actually trying. to foster between human beings, and can we build that from there?

And I think, funny enough, that could be the first building block. to, you know, as you say, not the either or using the thing. that currently I think comes with a lot of toxicity to try and flip it. on its head and create connection, which I think I actually think is possible. I don't think it becomes the panacea, but I think it just becomes one lever that we turn just just a little bit, and then all of a sudden, you know, you try and turn the next thing you try. and turn the next thing you try and turn the next thing. You know, I've, I've thought of doing something at my shows.

I haven't figured it out yet, but I would love to find. a way to incentivize people who come to my shows. Yeah, to connect with the people around them. And then if they do, there's going to be something that benefits them. But I haven't figured out what it is yet. But I know I want to do something like that. You know what I did in my show, but yet and so the first thing I asked when people. when I, as I meet them is, how many of you are here as a plus one. know nothing about me, but were recruited.

and you were curious and open enough to come on some anthropological field trip. And so I just want to welcome the skeptics, I love that. So that's number one. So that and it's oh, there's always a group of people. They just came because somebody said, I really would love it. And I'm just saying, you know, it's much easier for the person who already knows. me or is into this kind of work to show up than the person who, you know. So I shake hands with them. And my second question is, where are you from country wise?

So I get a complete sense as to whether all the places that people have come from, and knowing that each of you is going to hear me with a different ear. because you come from different relationship. traditions, different relational systems and cultures, etc.. And then my third question is, how many of you have ever been involved in a consensual sexual experience. that was also unsatisfying, but you went along with it anyway and you said nothing. Damn. And they all stand up.

This is always the same. So they all stand up and it becomes very clear that there's a ton of bad sex. in the theater. and that, you know, all all genders, all orientations or backgrounds included. So that kind of creates a and then I ask how many just stand up. If you know no one here. And then I ask every person. that is sitting next to someone standing to actually introduce themselves, so that if you came alone, you won't leave alone. That's the that's my opening thing.

And and then I do a lot of, you know, they play the card game during the, the, the show as well. So they have four cards and they tell each other stories. But it's really such an important thing to. I mean, what if you actually asked people if they could tell a joke to each other. and you make you give them five minutes of four minutes to talk to each other? I mean, jokes are dangerous, but I'll try each other. Yeah. Like sitting with or just to to tell to pick some quick.

So they could be they could be something I actually think they could I think. I think a lot of the reason crowd work has become so popular in comedy now. is because. it's connected audiences to each other in a way that it happens. So give me an example of crowd work, because it shows it's you to the audience. or the audience with each other. Well, I think what happens is a lot of comedians. will talk to the audience, but they also sort of facilitate. a conversation between people. For example, someone goes, hey, what's your name?

Where you from? Oh. Oh, that's a nice name. Sounds like a grandmother's name, though. So it's the way you from Belgium? Oh, Belgium. You don't know anybody from Belgium that. Tell me something that the Belgians. Any other Belgians in the room? Oh. Oh, wow. I didn't know there were this many Belgians. And then just like. What? What are you guys doing here? What is this, like, an invasion? And then this is something. What's that? Oh, no, we're not the Europeans who invade. Very funny stuff. And then, you know the play they play with the person, then someone else might say something in the room and they go, oh, they want to know the Belgians wait.

What happened? What what do they do in Africa? What did they do in Africa? And now there's this connection and attention and there's laughter. and there's and it's it's like a very. and it's funny because it's central. Yes. It all gets media to through you. Yeah. Because otherwise it's chaos. But there is something about having them. I look in my card. deck for you and see if there's 1 or 2 things that you can translate I'm to. I'll try to. There's something about them talking to each other, because then you say,

and when you leave here, you continue this conversation. I'm open that card letting you know. Yes. It's so I mean, I do have them in the love of your head. Love it, I try it. You can test a few things. I will try clearly and it will either work or I will get comedy from it. I mean, because there's so much of my show was about. creating the communal experience. So then I say to please stand up if you're currently in a romantic relationship. Yeah.

And then stand up if you would like to be in a relationship, stand up. If you would like to be out of the relationship. that you're in there, or at least on occasion, who stands? How many people have stood for the first one? Nobody for their being in. Would you like me? No. No, no. Would you like to be out of the relationship or you would be surprised? People stand. Oh, yes. Oh they they with the person sometimes you know, ways. Actually in the New York show, there was a person who stood up literally in front of a. she stood up in front of her wife.

and then announced to her that she was done. But it's meant to be funny. Like on occasion. Who hasn't an occasion thought, you know, what am I doing here? I am done with this. I can see the human that sometimes people don't see. That's so, so and so. You have both voices. The one that is taking this light and is taking this with humor, and the one that is actually sending a message. Sometimes they're they're alone, sometimes they're there with the partner. And I raise my hand. I see me too. I've been I've had those thoughts.

But let's be honest for a minute. Come on. Who? We can't start a conversation if we don't at least include this. It's another way of saying relationships, a relationship ambivalence is a part of being in a relationship. I'm going to do this I love now you've given me homework and like a challenge. How do I how do I connect? My audience is more. half of it because I think there can be beautiful outcomes, and the other half is. just because I like the possibility that things might not go well.

You tell me. Oh, definitely. There's a story on the other side of it. I think there's a beautiful story on the side of everything. that doesn't go well. As things the other day to a friend of mine, it was about relationships, and I said, this is genuinely how I feel. I was like, I really do feel sad that now more than ever, people seem to discard. everyone that has been in their lives as a quote unquote mistake, as a waste of time, as a you know what I mean?

And I, I don't know I don't know why I have such an aversion to that, but I go like, no, it's and I and by the way, I'm also not one of those people who's very pro the like, it all happens to you for a reason and it was meant to be not. I don't think of it like that, but I, I don't know, I don't know, but do you think there's something to do with the perfection you got that did that? People, as you know, you did such bad investment. Yeah. I do think that I think it's market mentality, a bad ROI, it's bad ROI. That person wasted my time.

She said that she wanted this and then four years later. and then what a waste of time. And then I go. But how was it a waste of time when you were in it, what were you feeling? What were you experiencing? What were you doing? What were you you know what I mean? Like, how was it a waste of time? Did it have a bad outcome? What do you feel like the whole time was a waste? Did not end the way you wanted it to end. And then all of the often say to them, what if they died? Because that's the thing. I was like, okay, I go, what if they died? What if they died?

And so the promises they made to you could not be fulfilled. What if they died? And then they go, oh, that's different. Different. And then I go, but in a way, it is this romantic consumerism. This is, you know, this is transaction. You wasted my time. That's an amazing statement to make on a relationship. You know, it wasn't worth it. It didn't deliver. It didn't deliver. It had a poor ROI. Yeah. I mean, it's really,

we have done an interesting thing, right? We've brought psychology to the business world into. and we've brought the markets to the relational world. The business mentality into a relationship, you know. Is it worth my time? Should I invest in here? It I don't, you know, when you really look at what it does to people, it's not the most pleasant thing, right? Yeah. You were one of the first people who told me,

and this, like, opened my eyes completely. We were talking about, Europe, the French, France, you know, just this whole idea. And I remember I had gone to Mexico City. And one of the things I noticed in Mexico City was. how many groups of mixed gender friends were hanging out. Just just dinners, lunches, you name it. And I would. I love when I'm in a place. I love asking people, where are you from? How did you come here?

Who are you? You know, especially in a city that that has a mix of the natives. and then people who are relocating or visiting. And yeah, I was surprised so many people like, oh no, we're friends. I'm just like, oh, I thought you were a couple. No, no. We're friends. What about you? Oh, no. We're this. I know, and. and I remember talking to you about it, and you said something that fascinated me. You said, like in America, because I had experienced this. And when talking to people, a lot of people will say, what are you looking for? Old. And what's the point?

It seems like many people live in the binary of. is there romance on the other side, not just romance? Is there a happy ending on the other side of this? And if there's not, why are we even? Why are we speaking? Why are we? You know? And then I remember you saying, you grew up in a world where all men and women. were friends and going out for dinners, and it was more. Yeah, it was more nuanced, I guess. Nuanced and less goal oriented, less outcome driven outcome.

Yeah. It's like the experience itself has value. The process is interesting. The, you know, as they often call the journey. But it's really it's the the experience itself has meaning and value of its own. It doesn't get measured by the outcome. I would apply this to a lot of things in life. It's like but it is the fundamental difference between task. oriented versus relationally oriented. Task oriented is what does it deliver? What does what do I get from this?

What's in it for me? This is amazing. Expression doesn't even translate in French. What's in it for me? Like the phrase, the phrase, it just doesn't exist to me. It's succinct to the point. It's very, very clear what it means. You know it is. There's something for me to gain here. It is a it's a very interesting sentence. What's in it for me? You know, and. versus, you know, pleasure, the fun, the discovery, the exploration, the mystery,

the surprise. I mean, that's those elements which I consider the elements. that are essential ingredients of the of the erotic, of the feeling alive. Yeah. Because you can accomplish a lot of things. That doesn't mean you feel alive. It just means that you feel like you've accomplished enough things. and to a different level of existence, you know? And that does go back to the thing I described about my parents before. It's like they definitely it was very central to them, you know,

I thought of that recently because yeah, as I listen, do I bring brings back memories. My mom used to tell me that, when they arrived to Belgium, they would go on Saturday night to the bar, talk about the coming together, and they would go dancing. and they would have to dress up and take the trolleys. The tramway. And go to Brussels and go dancing. And I'm just thinking Hallelujah.

After all of this you just went dancing. didn't you. Wanted to first lick your wounds. And it made me think that the really. the two stances at this moment that that stand out internally. in thinking about mental health and trauma and what we're talking about. relationships, joy, loneliness, all of these things, you know, you can think that healing comes. from focusing on the trauma.

and finding meaning in it and understanding its resonance. for you and its long lasting legacy and all of that. But healing can also happen by creating new experiences. that bring you joy and hope and energy and connection and, and exploration and all of that, that that in itself is healing. And I think that those are two very important doors that we stand. in front at this moment, individually.

and as groups, as communities. Yeah. Like that for us as a society right now to ask ourselves, do we want to create new memories. and new ideas that will heal the wounds that we've experienced, or. do we want to shut it all down and focus on not losing what we think we have? Or in a couple? You know, sometimes you need to first start. by addressing all the problems,

or sometimes you start by actually talking about the things that are going. really well and the things from which. in which you connect beautifully, and the things that never pose a problem. So you don't even think about them. And you first need to like the person again, and the first need to feel like you want to be touched by them again. And then it maybe you can go and sit down and think about what happened. when you had this major argument, You know, and a lot of people. in the field of conflict are talking about 1820, right?

It's the 80% that you actually agree upon or share a vision for or care for. Yeah. And the 20% that you don't. And but we have a real knack at this moment to go to the 20% first. And and I think that, we have a lot to gain to rebalance. that a little bit. That's, that's where I'm at. I think that's where we're at. This has been fun. This is really been great.

I like that, I think let's, Yeah, let's wrap it there. We could go forever, which is what I always think makes a great conversation. And what makes you one of my favorite people? The infinite nature of pondering life is, is what makes it very enjoyable. And I think. one of the main things I admire about you. is how doubtful and yet adventurous you are. It's a fantastic combination.

because some people are doubtful, but that limits their ability to want to go out. and see, explore, discover. And then there are other people who are adventurous, but they almost approach it with a reckless abandon. that can can bulldoze through certain ideas and people around them. I think there's something really wonderful in being doubtful, but also adventurous. And you know how I do it. by holding the hands of others. I like this if I go into nature and I know I'm a city person.

and I really don't know nature, and I feel very, vulnerable in nature. But I'll go, oh, and do all kinds of adventurous trips in nature. because I attached myself to someone who I trust and knows it well. So I hold the hand. But I do this in my work too, and it. I mediate the dangers of the world, but to the trust that I have in other people.

I love this, but you've left me a lot to think I'm going to. I'm gonna. Yeah, I'll apply myself. Let's get people back into laundromats. And there. Thank you so much. Thank you. There's been wonderful. What now with Trevor Noah is produced. by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Shahnaz Yamin and Jody AV. Again, our senior producer is Jess Hackel.