Dr. Steven Hassan: Are You in a Cult and Don’t Even Know It?

[music]. This is something that I'm picking up on. already [music] is many of the things. that that a cult might say to you are. actually true. >> Do you get what I'm saying? I I do think. mankind is asleep in that way. And and. we see it in what we eat, how we live, how we how we work, how we consume. There is a level of like asleep. >> sleepwalking. >> Yeah. But I go like, yeah, no, this is. true. We we're not in touch with our. bodies anymore. We're not in tune with. our minds. We, you know, we we we some.

we act mindlessly. We you I could, if. someone said that to me, >> walking down the street. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know how many times I. see people walk into the street on their. phone and then a car has to swivel. I'm. like, "Yeah, we are." So, they would. have me on that line. If they said. mankind is asleep, I'd be like on. another universal point that's really. demanding uh uh underlining and and with. a red pencil. >> Um that that the ideologies have. truthful important things. Yeah.

>> In it and they quote famous people who. say really important things. So, it's. not just all BS. And that's also as a. therapist, that's what I try to do with. helping my clients deconstruct. how did they get hooked? What were the. pieces that hook them? And the technique. I'm jumping ahead and I'll circle back. to your earlier question, but the. technique that's most effective is I. empower my clients to understand Chinese.

communist brainwashing, my model, etc. And the technique is this simple. I ask. people to go back to that critical. earlier moment when they were getting. recruited or they were falling in love. with someone who was a malignant. narcissist that was going to ruin their. lives. If you knew then what you know. now, what would you say and do. differently? [music]. This is What [music] now with Trevor.

Noah. [music]. >> How do you pronounce your last name? >> Hassan. >> Hassan. Okay. >> Like Maggie Hassan. >> Because everyone has a different. pronunciation of H A S A N. >> Some say what? Hassan. >> Hassan. There's Hassan. >> Hassan. Hassan like they all. >> Hassan. [laughter]. >> Now you're just adding words. >> So Hassan was the cousin of Muhammad in.

[snorts] the Muslim religion. >> But my the derivation of mine is Ellis. Island. >> Oh my grandfather was a Kazen a Jewish. >> mazen. South African. I was almost there. with Kassen. >> Yeah, you were actually. You were close. >> But mine sounded more Schwartzenegger. than. >> Yeah. over there. >> I met Arnold when I first got out of the. Mooneyies when I went public and he was.

promoting pumping iron. He was the guest. before me. >> and he heard I was had gotten out of the. mooneyies and he said, "Can I join and. >> join the Mooneyies or?". >> No, he joined my segment. Oh, >> cuz he wanted to talk about the Nazis. I. thought he told it well you [laughter]. left the cult. I left the cult. >> and you told people about leaving the. cult and then Arnold Schwarzenegger. heard about this. He's like, "Can I I. want to join the cult? >> I want to make a cult. >> I just heard you're talking about I want. to can I join?". >> No, but he he stayed and he made.

>> What year? Wait, what? This is 19. >> 1976. >> Yeah. >> I was on the Barry Farber show in. Manhattan. >> I had never met a bodybuilder. He was. there with a gorgeous blonde. >> What is what was the documentary, right? >> Yeah. It was his thing about becoming. his bodybuilder. Yeah. >> Is that the thing that blew. >> Yeah. That's what that's what inspired. everyone to start pumping iron blew him. famous. Venice Beach famous. >> way before he became. >> his documentary is great. I don't know. if you've watched it. >> Which one?

>> The Arnold Rosenegger documentary like. and it's self-reflection as well. He's. in it. >> Talks about his life. >> How old is it? >> Maybe it's like a few years old now. Maybe like. it. Yeah. Well, he talks about his. illegitimate son and his relationship. and. >> talks about everything. I've seen it. >> Yeah. Talks about everything. It's. really good. >> But I watched it again. I think I. watched it too quickly. It's really. really great. So this was wait 197. So. wait, how long were you in a cult for? >> I was recruited at Queens College the. same month Patty Hurst was abducted by. the Symbian Liberation Army. Women.

flirted with me. My girlfriend had. dumped me. [laughter] And a few weeks. later I'm a right-wing fascist cult, but. I didn't know what it was at all for. months. >> I I I feel like that puts somebody in. the perfect position, you know. Um, I. had a conversation with a monk about who. can be a monk and how to become a monk. and what you know a monk life is. >> And it was interesting. So, so we're in. Bhutan. and they took us to um it is it is it a.

monastery? >> Yeah, >> it is a monastery. Okay. Just making. sure. So, we go to the monastery and. there's all the monks there and. everything and there's all these young. boys who've come from different. childhoods. Some have almost been on a. path of monkhood their whole lives. Others have come in because they they're. living troubled lives. >> Yes. >> And so somebody said in the group we. were in they were like, "Oh, but like is. isn't that you know this guy this kid's. been through like this 20-year-old or. 19year-old, he's been through he's done.

all these things and can he be a monk?". And the monk said something really. amazing. He said, "Oh, he's the best. person to be a monk because if you've. been perfect your whole life and you're. a monk, that's fine. normal. >> But if you haven't been perfect your. whole life, you've lived [snorts] the. furthest life from perfect and then you. become a monk. >> He's like, I feel like you're the best. disciple/teer. >> because you've actually experienced the. things that you're talking about. And I. feel like that's that's you. >> Well, that's a piece of it, but I'd also.

say you have to have an ego before you. can surrender your ego if you're on a. spiritual path. And a lot of people. haven't figured out who they are. And to. recruit them into something that's. totalistic. >> is not informed consent from my mental. health professional point of view. >> No, but this is this is what I mean is. like you are you are now an expert in. the world of cults. You're an author. who's written about cults. You teach. people and you help them understand what. a cult is, whether they're in a cult,

the difference between cults, etc. But. your origin story I find particularly. fascinating because it gives you a. unique insight. You're not you're not. just coming at this from academia like. you just told us. >> Exactly. >> You were in a So I I didn't know much. about this before I like read your story. but tell us about like the mooneyies. Tell us about the story. How how does. this journey began for you? >> So I was not a joiner. I w I was raised. in a conservative Jewish family in. Flushing, Queens with two older sisters.

And my mom's side was Orthodox. And my mom was an eighth grade art. teacher in Brooklyn. And my dad took. over his father's hardware store in. Ozone Park, Queens. And uh I played basketball and was. writing poetry at Queens College. A. >> well-rounded gent. And did not I was. reading philosophy. I was 19, had a. ponytail, had skipped eighth grade, extra honors student,

>> so I was in the last draft lottery to. the Vietnam War, which I was opposed, but I got a good number, fortunately. Um, I hated Nixon, my father. >> What do you mean? Sorry, what does that. mean? I got a good number. What is that? >> I was in the last draft lottery, meaning. they were uh picking numbers of your. birthday to decide who was going to. fight in Vietnam. >> Damn, I didn't know. I'm aging myself. Yes. So, >> Oh, wow. >> So, if you got 60 or less, you were. going to Vietnam. I got like 300 out of,

you know, 365. >> That's the reason you didn't go. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> But I hated Nixon. And then I get in the. mooneyies a few. >> months later. I'm fasting for Nixon to. be president despite Watergate. And I. think my dad's going to appreciate me. And I'm like, "Dad, God wants Nixon to. be president. I'm fasting for him." He. goes, "Steve, you are right. He's a. crook." I'm like, "Dad, you don't. understand. God wants him to be.

president.". >> Well, how did you do you understand what. you just skipped for me? You just told. me about art, basketball, [laughter]. philosophy, and then you go into the. gym, and then all of a sudden you you. just jumped into Mooney. No, I need to. understand I'll and and I'll elaborate. on why later. >> Okay. I need you to take us through the. steps cuz I like what you said. I'm not. a joiner. Sounds like you were a smart. kid. Came from a good family. You had. your own point of view. >> And then what happens? When when does. the Mooney So the Mooney is is.

>> educated about the Holocaust? Bicycle. across the US when I was 16. >> Wait, for why? >> Cuz I was like wanting to see the United. States and I was busy. >> I was 16. And I didn't have No, I This. was a This was a an outing to have. experiences. >> How did you get back then? >> Doc, what were you what were you. >> No, you would camp out or stay at. [laughter] host. I went with American. Youth Hostel. >> What bike was it? A Schwin. >> It actually was a Schwin. How did you.

guess? >> Eugene knows. Whenever you try to ride. across the country, there's only one. bike for you. Schwin. [laughter]. Anyway, um, no, my my story is my. girlfriend dumped me abruptly over. Christmas, and I'm sitting at Queens. College cafeteria, ready to start the. next semester, and three women came over. and started lovebombing me, which is a. term for cult recruitment. >> Okay.

>> Oh, Trevor, you're so special. Tell us about you, Trevor. And they were. like, with Steve. And I'm like, >> there are three of them. I'm going to. get lucky with one of them. I can if I. if my. >> math was very good even from age. >> I said are you students here? Yeah. My. math. >> you have a bright future with online. gambling. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> If you're a time machine spread my odds. here. [laughter]. >> What they didn't say is we don't believe. in sex and. >> wait. So how so so they come to. >> No, they were they were just using.

sexual seduction as a recruiting tool. And I they lied. They said they were. students. They weren't. I said, "Are you. part of some religious group?" No, not. at all. >> So, you asked. >> I asked. I literally asked, but they. lied. That's also part of People need to. understand. Destructive cults deceive. >> But wait, what what what made you ask. that question cuz I. >> I don't know. That's I I've asked myself. that question over and over again. The.

only major cult story was the Manson. back in 74 that I can think of. >> Question to ask. It is a group of women. who've just approached you and said, "Wow, you look nice." And you're like, "Are you guys part of a religious. group?". >> No, I did ask a question to ask. >> I can also tell you because I've helped. people for 49 years and I asked them. questions about what were their first. contacts, what was the attraction, what, you know, what was going on for them in. their life. >> And almost all of them have signals like.

that of I thought it was crazy or I. thought it was odd or I had a bad vibe. But they don't listen. >> Yeah. >> They don't listen. They get overwhelmed. by the external Yes. influences. >> and it's a stepbystep thing where they. they don't say, "Hi, we have a cult. Come and join us." They say, "Do you. care about the world, Eugene?". >> Yeah. >> Do you care about starving children? Of. course. Because there's children. starving and they need you. And this.

kind of emotional. >> stuff. And you're a teenager. and they. bring you to an introductory lecture and. a free dinner, etc. The the weirdest. part of my story is I was working as a. banquet waiter at the Holiday Inn on. Hempstead, Long Island every weekend cuz. I was going to college and I wanted gas. money and date money and whatever. >> So, they were, you know, they met me, they invited me over for dinner and they. said, "We're going away for the weekend. It's going to be so great and we want.

you. Please come." And I'm like, I work. every weekend, you know, I'm sorry, I. can't go period. And but they kept. asking over and over and over and over. And finally, I don't know why I said it, but I said, if I don't have to work some. weekend, then I'll go. And two days later, I called my boss up. as I always did because it was a bar. mitzvah, wedding, a this or a that. He. said, "You won't believe it, Steve, but. the wedding was called off, so take the. weekend off." Did Wait, did they have.

something to do with that? >> I don't think so. I think it was just. bad luck or synchrony, >> but I was like, hm, I'm wondering if I'm. meant to go and with this these folks, these fun people. >> So, you call them up, they pull up in. their station wagon. >> No, I went I went to their house. >> Always a station. >> and I I made a mist this was way before. cell phones. So, I made the mistake to. not bring my car so I'd have wheels if I. didn't like it. That was big mistake.

>> And I didn't have a phone number to tell. my family or anybody where I was. So, nobody knew where I was. >> And we're driving up to Terry Town to. this multi-million dollar estate. And as. we're passing, it's dark at night. It. was snowy. >> They're in your car. >> We're I'm in their van. >> Oh, you're in their van. >> I'm in their van. and and one of the. people at the front says, "This weekend. we're going to have a joint workshop. with the unification church." And I.

went, "What? [laughter]. What? I'm Jewish. I'm not into church. >> What's this? [laughter]. Nobody said anything about a workshop. I'm out of here. Drive me back to. Queens." [laughter]. >> And I swear to God, that's exactly what. happened. >> You know, you can I tell you what you. remind me of? You remind me of how. Eugene reacts sometimes when he'll be in. my car. >> and I'll just be like, "We're just going. to hang out." And then at the last. second I'll be like, "So, we're going to.

be moving furniture around in [laughter]. my house." And then Eugene is IN THE CAR. LIKE, "LET ME OUT. Let me out [laughter]. of here. Let me out of here.". >> She's like, "Who's moving furniture?". >> It happens all the time [laughter]. >> and switch. and all of that. But and then I was. like, "It's [snorts] snowing outside. It's completely dark. I don't have any. means. I could get on the road and. hitchhike and ask somebody to take me to. the police station, but there I said.

bring me back. We're going in the. morning. So, just you know, come in and. you'll leave in the morning. So, they. but they had no intention of bringing me. back in the morning because the van. left. >> Wait, wait. >> And the phone wasn't working. The the. pay phone. It was later as I was a. leader I understood this was all. heavenly deception. Yes. My man Eugene. >> Before you become a leader, the van. pulls up, right? >> Yeah. >> Then what happens?

>> The van pulls into this estate, formerly owned by the Seagrs family. And. I hear this rap about workshop and the. unification church. I have my thing. And. they did the a very typical mind control. technique. They turned it around on me. >> Can you explain more? >> Yeah. So I said, "What do you mean. church? I'm Jewish and what do you mean. workshop? I thought we were just going. to have fun." And they're like, "Are you. close-minded about Christianity, Steve?".

>> So they whatever objection you have, they make it your fault versus. >> those if it's okay to. curse. Oh yeah, I mean those. said if they weren't. religious, it wasn't a group. I was lied. to. I I I want out of here. But anyway, it was not um I just nobody explained to. me how cults operate and I was one of as.

most people today walking around going. I'm too smart to ever fall for a cult. So let's let's so let's break this. >> I'm educated. I come from a good family. >> Yeah. But let's [clears throat] break. this part down now. So so now knowing. the things that you that you know let's. go through these two major steps. >> to help somebody else understand like. what is actually happening. So let's go. back to the to the university campus. [snorts] Help me understand what that. initial do do you have a name for that?

Is there a term for what happened there? What is significant about the way that. they approached you and and brought you. in? So the mooneyies call it witnessing but. that's a term Christians often use for. procilitizing. >> Okay. >> So but the the key thing is ethical. religious groups tell people upfront who. they are what they believe and what they. want from them. >> Okay. That's ethical. >> before they pressure you or guilt trip. you or indoctrinate you into things. >> So they identify themselves and say.

agenda is exactly. So I have an. influence continuum. It's on my website, freedomofmind.com. You can download it for free of ethical. influence. Looks like this. Respects. your conscience, free will, creativity, um um lovebased, ethical leadership, checks and balances, and destructive authoritarian cults. And. I my my definition is really critical of. authoritarian cults. And that can be a.

one-on-one authoritarian relationship. >> It can be a commercial cult. It can be a. political cult. It can be a therapy cult. or religious cult. >> Whatever. But I have four overlapping. criteria. And that's what I did my. doctoral dissertation on. Behavior. control, information control, thought. control, and emotional control. >> Okay. BI, >> bite model. I call it the bite model. You can download it the whole list. And.

so if they control your sleep, if they. control your clothing, what you eat, you. can start ticking off how authoritarian. it is. >> the scale. >> But critically, did you have informed consent going in. and how free are you to question it or. leave if you're not happy or. >> So that's second part then. So when you. when they're saying to you, >> are you not open? What is that? What is. that technique like? Why why is that so. bad? I'm and I'm literally just trying. to understand this and play devil's.

advocate at the same time. Someone goes. like, "Oh, are you close-minded, Steve?". Right. What are they actually doing. there to you? >> So things have become far more. sophisticated than we were in the ' 70s. in the Mooneys and much is going on. online. So what I'd like to try to do in. this conversation is explain what I now. understand what's happening today in a. way that's going to help the the widest. audience. So what I want to say is that. our attention is very narrow.

>> We can't focus. I think the number is. between five and nine bits of. information at any second. But we're. taking in tens of thousands of bits of. information just visually a second. So. we have a conscious mind kind of like a. tuner. >> on a radio has AM and FM but it's just. listening to this one band but all the. rest is happening. >> at the same time. >> So understand that a lot of what happens.

today is misdirection reversal to. distract people from what to really pay. attention to. Hm. So, you know, I'm asking this question. and now they're flipping it or they're. doing a reversal or or people are doing. a projection onto somebody else. >> and you forget I just asked about this, but now you're talking about that. >> You said, "Hey guys, you said why is.

there a workshop and I'm Jewish? Tell me. about religion." And they flip it. >> They lied to me. They didn't say, "Yep, we did or we had to." He just said, "What? Do you have an issue?" Obviously, you have an issue, Eugene, with trust. Apparently, >> that you're even asking. >> Go back. Yeah. Is that Yeah. >> But the the technique of mind. controllers, the more data they can. gather on a person ahead of time, usually by asking the recruiter who's. already And back then, you couldn't buy.

somebody's profile. Today, you can. So, it's way more problematic now because if. you're a person of influence, if you. have money, for example, you can be. targeted and have no idea you're being. targeted online. with AI. And that's why it's so. important. My solution to what's. happening in the world right now is. psychoeducation about how the mind. works,

>> how social psychology works, how. neuroscience works, >> and how are we going to be ethical so we. have planetary survival. because most people are good. Most. people know there's climate warming due. to fossil fuels and don't want to buy. into the constant brainwashing and. propaganda saying there's no scientific. proof. It's like the tobaca big tobacco. There's no proof it's cancer-causing. They knew it was cancer causing.

>> And the big cults have hired. sociologists of religion to say there's. no such proof of brainwashing at all. So. they use many of the same techniques to. turn the lens to shift your your view. >> Exactly. >> But it's formulaic once you know the. formula. It's you can see it. You can I. name it. >> I think it's also it's also easier when. you when you hear it in a story cuz now. now I'm with you when we go step by. step. So you you're you've just come. into this compound in Terry Town, right? And now they've said to you, "Oh wow,

Steve, you're clearly the cuz. you have a problem with Christianity.". So now you go, "No, I don't." And I want. to go home. Take me home. Sorry, we're. not going. So, like, let's just go in. and we'll sit by the fireside and have. roast marshmallows and sing some songs. and we'll take you back in the morning. >> But at what point does your brain stop. going, I want to go home. >> When you're having marshmallows by the. fire, >> at the point that I I didn't opt for. this is dangerous. This is a mind.

control cult. Get me the hell out of. here. I was like, I'll wait. I'll wait. till the morning and they'll take me. back. >> So, this is a stall maneuver. This is. another important feature. >> A mind controller wants to get you over. there at the corner of the room. They. don't say, "Walk to that corner of the. room." They say, "Would you mind picking. up that pencil that's over there?" Or, "Oh, and do you see that interesting. picture on the wall over there, Trevor? Go over and, you know, see the detail on.

that picture." So they come up with ways. to d misdirect your attention. >> till you're behaving the way they want. you to behave. >> and in the end they want to program a. new identity. >> and it's it's a dissociative disorder. So I was the real Steven and they. [clears throat] wanted me to believe. that Sunyong Moon was 10 times greater. than Jesus Christ or any religious. figure in history that he was sinless. and he was going to save the world. He.

was going to bring peace. He was going. to feed all the starving children in the. world and I needed to be like him. So. they built a a a moon identity that took. over my identity. And this identity said. he's satanic. Don't listen to him. He. wants to write poetry and have sex with. girls and play basketball. Sex is a big no no. Except for the. leaders. The leaders apparently got to. have a lot of sex.

>> They can always have sex. >> Well, they're lot you know. >> Are we leaders? [laughter]. Power, money, not with each other. >> Power, money, and sex is the universal. [snorts]. for for bad groups. So, you you're in. this you're in this this um this place. and you're having these conversations. >> He's having marshmallows. >> You're having marshmallows. >> by the fireplace. >> Nothing nothing says non-threatening. like marshmallows. >> and three hot chicks. >> So, that's another point you're in. So, one of the techniques that cults like to.

do is in hypnosis, it's called age. regression. They want you to become like. a child. >> They bring you back to camp. >> So they bring you back to camp where. you're playing guitar around the the. fireplace and it's bringing up good. feelings. >> Yeah. >> Oh, remember how it was? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because it's easier to to direct. children than an adult. >> Huh. >> Yeah. >> It's very formulaic now. It's very And.

that's why I've written books about it. why I'm teaching clinicians. There's no. graduate program in the United States or. the world that I'm aware of that teaches. mental health professional how to do. therapy with former cult members. >> So, I did I I'm already learning so much. now. I know next time to give Eugene. marshmallows in the car before we. [laughter] go move the couches. just to like soothe his spirit cuz I. just throw couches. I'm like, "Couches?". And Eugene's like, "Now, [laughter].

my back hurts. I should just be like. Eugene. Would you like some. marshmallows? The wheels on the bus go. and bring a banjo. [laughter]. >> You know, the more you talk, the more I. realize that um this is more per. pervasive than we think it is. >> It's a global commercial epidemic. It's. an epidemic. >> Yeah. >> And I tried to explain to politicians. that we should be declaring a public. health emergency. We should treat this like a virus, a. real virus, but a mind control virus. We.

should be doing inoculation programs to. educate people what the techniques are, how to tell, how to reality test. We. should be training clinicians, educators, politicians, media people. >> Yeah. >> And we should be making it safe for. people to exit. >> authoritarian cults and not stigmatizing. them by saying you're a Once. you're in, we told you it was a cult, Steve. How come you didn't listen? People would say that to me when I got.

out and made me feel worse. >> It didn't make me didn't help me recover. once I got out and realized it was a. mind control cult. >> How did you get to leader though? I. mean, you you go from not wanting to. come along. >> to slowly being soothed into this world. and then how many days are you there? How how long is this process? How how do. you go from skeptic to leader of the of. the organization? >> Good question. So, there's another. weirdo event cuz as I told you, a weirdo.

event with my uh my boss at the Holiday. Inn. >> So, at the I thought it was weekend come. Sunday night. No, it's a three-day. workshop. You have to stay for the most. important day. I'm like, I'm a student. I have classes. Take me back now. And. they worked on me, worked on me, worked. on me. So they got me to stay for the. third day. And I felt like my brain had. been in a washing machine. I remember.

that. But I knew I needed to get the. hell out of there. And I just got angry. and kept saying, "I want to go home. I. want to go home." They started. pressuring me to stay for a 7-day. workshop after the 3-day workshop. And. nothing worked until I like threatened. violence that I'm. I don't want to be here. So, they did. let me go home and my mother and my. father were like, "Where were you? We. were worried. Your eyes are all glassy. Were you drugged?" And I said, "I don't.

think they drugged me. I haven't slept. much." And that's a major technique of. mind control. >> Uh my mother said, "Let's go talk to the. rabbi." That was her go-to. And I went, "Sure, I'll talk to the rabbi." And he. was completely clueless of what to say. or even what to ask. And he thought I wanted to convert to. Christianity, which was the furthest. thing on my mind, [laughter]. >> furthest thing from his mind. >> But they had put in three days, they had. put the idea in my head that we were.

living at a moment in history where the. world was going to be transformed to be. this garden of Eden paradise. because the Messiah was coming. They. didn't say Moon was the Messiah yet, just that we're in that moment. >> And so I asked the rabbi that what he. should have said is, "Steve, I've never. heard of this group, but let me tell. you, if a group is legitimate, it will. stand up to scrutiny. Promise me you won't be in touch with.

them for the next few weeks and we'll. research it together.". >> That's what he should have said to me. >> But he didn't know to say that. >> He didn't know to say that. So I'm back. at home. Three days of hypnotic. programming in my head and I'm going, "These people think the Messiah is. coming. I want to write poetry.". >> You're back in [laughter] your normal. life. Yeah. >> I want save the world. Write poetry. Save the world. Do God's will or write. poetry.

>> And I had this moment where I just was. in my room. I had books all over the. floor. I was reading two to three books. a week cuz I'm a reader like you. And I. >> not two to three books a week reading. >> Back then I was reading two to three. books a week. I'm still reading a lot. In any case, I pick up a book um about a. another cult leader named Gerif. >> Okay. >> You ever heard of Gerie? >> Never heard of G. >> Turned out my next door neighbor's. father was into Gerief. So he had. introduced me to this. So I was already.

primed a bit into. >> mankind is asleep and we have to wake. up. And there were these esoteric forces. that. >> which by the way, can I just interject. here and say which I often find these a. lot of these things are true though. >> So so this is this is something that I'm. picking up on already is. >> many of the things that that a cult. might say to you are actually true. >> Do you get what I'm saying? I I do think. mankind is asleep in that way and and we. see it in what we eat, how we live, how.

we how we work, how we consume. There is. a level of like asleep. >> sleepwalking. Yeah, but I go like, "Yeah, no, this is true. We we're not in. touch with our bodies anymore. We're not. in tune with our minds. We, you know, we. we we some we act mindlessly. We I could. if someone said that to me, >> walking down the street. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know how many. times I see people walk into the street. on their phone and then a car has to. swivel." I'm like, "Yeah, we are." So, they would have me on that line. If they. said, "Mankind is asleep." But we like, >> but you're hitting on another universal. point that's really demanding uh uh.

underlining and and with a red pencil. >> Um that that the ideologies have. truthful important things. Yeah. >> In it and they quote famous people who. say really important things. So, it's. not just all BS. And that's also as a. therapist, that's what I try to do in. helping my clients deconstruct. how did they get hooked? What were the.

pieces that hook them? And the technique. I'm jumping ahead and I'll circle back. to your earlier question, but the. technique that's most effective is I. empower my clients to understand Chinese. communist brainwashing, my model, etc. And the technique is this simple. I ask. people to go back to that critical. earlier moment when they were getting. recruited or they were falling in love. with someone who was a malignant. narcissist that was going to ruin their.

lives. If you knew then what you know. now, what would you say and do. differently? >> And I have them reprocess. because they didn't know what they. didn't know. But if I knew it was the. mooneyies, that this fat Korean. billionaire was a pervert and involved. with the Korean CIA and the Washington. Times, etc. I would have said, "You're. not students. Get the hell out of here.

I'm calling security.". But so, but the point is it's a. dissociative disorder. I was using my. hands before. So the key is once you're out is. deconstructing. the programmed identity. >> by going back to critical moments. >> and rewiring using neuroplasticity and. neurogenesis. >> saying if I knew then what I know now. here's how I would have handled it or. could have handled it or should have. handled it.

>> because then it empowers you going. forward into the future to not get taken. again with those techniques. letting your brain train your body on. how to react next time instead of. freezing. >> And the key is the locus of control has. to be in you, >> not looking outside to some authority. figure or ideology to tell you what to. what reality is or what the beliefs are. We'll be right back after this. All right, Eugene, let's play a little.

game. You know, make something fun. [music] Two truths and a lie. >> Mhm. >> Here we go. One, I've had to tell a. world leader that their fly was undone. Two, when getting dressed, I don't do. sock, sock, shoe, shoe. I do sock, shoe, sock, shoe. Three, I've been a Verizon. customer for 11 years. What do you. think? Very confused. First of all, why. would a world leader own a fly? Cuz. those things just come uninvited. Secondly, lying to your friends is not.

cool. There's never been a game. >> No, Eugene. fly is for like the zip is. what and then it's it's it's not a lie. It's a game where I'm trying it's like I. give you information. Okay, I lied. All. three are true, Eugene. And in case you. were thinking, you know, Verizon isn't. as expensive as you think. In fact, if. you bring in your AT&T or T-Mobile bill, they'll give you a better deal. And the. reason I've been with them for this long. is just because I travel so much. I need. a network that's reliable. That's right,

a better deal on the best network with. the most ways to save on plans, streaming, and phone deals. Take your. AT&T or T-Mobile bill to your local. Verizon store today. Get your better. deal and start saving for real based on. root metrics best overall mobile network. performance. US second half 2025. All. rights reserved. You must provide recent. consumer mobile bill in the name of the. person redeeming the deal. Additional. terms, conditions, and restrictions. apply.

So, do you understand how two truths and. do you understand it now? >> I understand that you didn't have to lie. first before telling me that Verizon is. the best. >> No, I wasn't lying. Eugene, it's not a. lie. I wouldn't lie to you. It's a game. >> Okay. I'm sorry. [music]. >> I lied. UH, [laughter]. [music]. >> you know, the story of recruitment.

sounds so familiar to me. When I when I. was 14, we moved from the township to. town. >> So, we lived in this block of flats. My. mom, >> my two other siblings. >> So, we used to play soccer downstairs. So these friends of mine that I just. made in the apartment block. >> did not show up for soccer that day. Then there were two teenagers like maybe. in university age. >> who were outside our gate in the. apartment cuz we played in the parking. lot. And then. >> kicked the ball came over to them. >> They were on the other side of it and. they just said, "Hey, how you doing?".

And I said, "I'm fine." They said, "What. are you doing?" And I said, "I'm playing. soccer, but my friends are not here.". They were like, "Ah, if the gate would. open, we play with you." And I was like, "Yeah, the gate won't open. It's fine. We can just talk from here.". They kept showing up until they were. familiar to me. >> Yeah. >> A week later they said they spotted me. coming back from school cuz I used to. take the train. >> Yeah. They were targeting you. >> They said, "You look like you've come. from far cuz I was like I was still. going to a township school living in. town." So I took the train. >> So they said, "You know what we could. do? We we're in university now. We could. help you with homework if you want.". >> Then I said, "Yeah, I'm fine with. homework." They were like, "Trust me,

we're good at math. We" And I hated. math. >> We do all sorts of things, but if you. want, we could help you. But now we're. outside the gate just before I entered. the apartment block. >> Y. >> and I said, "No, thank you." Two weeks. went by, I saw them again, but now with. my friends. So now this is important to. mention. These were white kids. I'm. black. Our apartment building was. predominantly white. The two friends of. mine, Fi and Harold. Now I'm seeing them. interacting with them thinking it's all. normal. But the target here was me. So. ultimately they said to me, "You know.

what you do? We could meet at the mall.". The mall was not two blocks away from my. house. It had restaurants. They said, "We can meet at the mall." for all of. us. Funny and did not go. I end up. going. We got to a restaurant. There. were two other people. >> Three on 3:1 ratio. There were two other. people recruitment. >> You're not wrong. There were two other. people and there was a girl in there. So, it felt safer. >> Started talking. They said you could. have anything you want in the. restaurant. Anything you want. I didn't. know what I wanted. Then they ordered. this drink. I'll never forget. It's. ingrained in my mind. I've never had it.

ever since. It's called Horix. So, it's almost like um it's almost like. >> but I think it's a Dutch drink. It's. like a hot chocolaty slash warm milky. thing. >> They had that came in a tall glassy mug. with a long teaspoon. And I was staring. at this thing for long. >> cuz I didn't know what was going on. here. And they were talking talking. That weekend I ended up in a bus without. telling my mom to a stadium and it was a. church event.

>> Yeah. They were trying to recruit you. I. was there. I had they had red t-shirts. The the organiz the church was called. Hope. It was like a red t-shirt with. white writing on it on the chest. It was. packed. I was in a stadium. Got back. home that night. My mom was worried. sick. I had to explain to her what. really happened. She said, "You're never. seeing these people again. This will. never happen again." And they kept on. coming and I never went out the gate. again. >> So you listen to your mom? >> Yes. I was 15. >> Okay. So obviously you had seen a lot of these. kind of things at the hospital at the. ER, people who attempted suicide and all.

of that jazz. But it was a church cult. >> Yeah, exactly. And cults will tell. people, "Don't tell your parents.". >> I was in the car with these people. I. didn't know who they were. >> I get it. It happened to me. >> I went to a stadium. >> No, it it it happens a lot. And I was I. was listening to you read your book. about your childhood. Yeah. And it. sounded like one of those churches that. your went to was. >> like you said there's different ones cuz. remember we use the word church for.

everything, >> right? >> But it's like anyone can say church. >> Mhm. >> Do you get what I'm saying? It's like. the church of anything can say church. and then everyone has a specific idea. What sticks out to me in this story is I. go, >> you were playing soccer. >> Yes. >> Wow. my friend. >> I was quite good at something. >> Good for him. >> Wow. >> Good for him. >> Even now he hates it. Is this why? Eugene, have we [clears throat] found. the source of why you hate [laughter]. why you hate football so much? >> I was like, is this Have we gotten to.

the root of the trauma moment? [laughter]. >> I was like, this is why my friend never. wants to talk about soccer. >> He's laughing very loud. [laughter]. >> It was interesting. >> Both you and my side. >> I'm a mental health professional. I want to say something really important. to today. So there are a lot of people. who claim to be doing Christianity and. evangelical Christianity. >> I really want to be clear the people who. talk about following Jesus. >> love my kingdom is not of this world. No.

one will know the time. You know render. unto Caesar what Caesar. That's not. what's happening to tens of millions of. Americans and hundreds of millions. around the world. What's happening is a. form of authoritarian cultism called New. Apostolic Reformation. >> is the title. >> Okay? And what's different is these. people who run these groups and mega. churches, they say, "I'm an apostle or. I'm a prophet and I go to me [snorts].

>> and God told me so and so won the 2020. election and don't listen to Satan. >> because if you're if you're feeling or. believing that it's because Satan is in. you, but I can help cast out the. demons.". >> Yeah. Leave it up to me. >> So look at the bite model. So they so. they basically become the intermediary. between you and God. They go you don't. speak to God. I speak to God and they. have you cut off from family and friends. who are like go to this church. They.

actually follow the Bible instead of. following a person. >> who's doing these mind control. techniques on them. >> So that's how they also don't stand up. to scrutiny is they remove you from your. environment so that you have fewer. people or fewer places that can make you. doubt them. >> Absolutely. So another critical point I. want to cover that I think you'll really. find important is the notion of phobia. indoctrination. >> Phobia indoctrination.

So let's take um an elevator phobia. Someone is afraid to get in an elevator. because they think they'll plummet to. their death or they'll be trapped for. eternity. >> Very reasonable phobia. So they create. anyone who has that. >> they create movies in their mind where. there this is not safe it's dangerous. >> but the thing is is we have fear to keep. us safe from real danger. >> Yes. >> So if there's emergency breaks so it.

can't fall to your death if there's a. phone you the worst that happens is you. pee on yourself. >> but you'll get out and everything will. be fine. But if you have this phobia of. an of being in an elevator, you'll walk. 40 flights of stairs even though you're. shvitzing like crazy because you're that. afraid of it. >> Understand people in mind control cults. >> are like that. They can't imagine. leaving the group and being happy and.

fulfilled or with God. >> Okay? They can only And here's another. part of my story since you were. interested in how this happened to. Steve. I was taken with a hundred other. Mooneyies to see the Exorcist movie. in Greenwich Village. They rented a. whole theater. We went up to hear Moon. speak and Moon said, "God made the. Exorcist. This movie is a prophecy of. what will happen if you leave the. unification church.". >> Damn. And from that moment I thought any.

doubt was a demon trying to possess my. mind. So I was taught thought stopping. I was chanting. in order to keep the And I didn't. believe in demons. I was Jewish. I I. didn't believe in Satan either. Does it. does it does it make it harder for you. to trust your own doubt and instincts. when you're surrounded by many seemingly. reasonable people who agree with what. you're being taught? That's another very.

important point we teach in social. psychology is that we're social beings. and part of our brain. >> calibrates off of who we identify with. >> and our brains even entrain. There's a. there's there's a neuroscychological. phenomenon that they're tracking now. where you're playing music, you're. singing together, your brains start to. sink. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> I mean this is a known phenomenon. you. have a whole bunch of people singing in.

church or whatever, it feels great. That. was when people say, "What was the best. part of the moon?" I said, "I love. singing in a group.". >> Oh, yeah. It's the reason um armies can. march further together than they can. remember when when when the first large. military like the way we think of. militaries started marching in unison on. a beat. >> Roman military. >> Yeah. Marching together on a beat with a. drum and with like a vibe. >> Totally. >> They went they went further. they got. the maring part. >> Yeah. That cuz that thing it does.

something to us that we don't fully. understand as humans. >> So the one of the one of the social. psychology experiments I teach my. clients and the public. There are three. >> Yeah. >> Ash conformity study, Mgrim obedience. study, and Zimardo prison study. Okay. Any of those sound familiar? >> No. >> Ash was a social psychologist in the. 50s. Very briefly he did an experiment. and he called it a social perception. experiment.

He had the person at the front of the. room, people in a ring, they'd show a. sample size line, let's say 3 in long, uh 3 in line. They have three sample. lines, three, four, and five in. >> They had everybody in the room say which. of the three was the same size as the. sample line. >> Okay. >> Okay. They did it correctly twice and. then all of the people who were in on. the experiment started confidently.

giving the wrong answer. >> But the person in seat six was then like. >> a 2in line is equal to a 3-in line. No, no, no. And they disagreed. But. twothirds start giving the wrong answer. just to fit in. >> Mhm. >> to the social. conformity. >> You see that's. >> and no one gets up to measure. That's. what I teach. It's like if you really. want to know, look for an objective way.

to measure what's going on. But you see. now that that for me. taps into one of the greatest conundrums. in in society and that is for most of. society to function we have to agree on. things that aren't real or rather. realities that are imagined so that we. can function together. Right? >> Like a traffic light is a society. agreeing on something that is not real. >> We go the red light stops us. It doesn't.

stop us. But we all agree that we will. stop. >> It's a rule that we've agreed to. >> Yeah. But we we all have to sort of. imagine that the thing has happened or. hasn't happened or you know the way. people go quiet in certain spaces. We. all agree to be quiet in the space or we. all so it's like it's it's a weird thing. because. >> it feels like we need to be able to do. this as humans so that we can form. societies. But now you're saying we also. have to be careful. >> of when we do it because then the. society we form is a cult. So, I believe.

cults exist from the ethical to the. unethical. So, I I make a distinction. because there are cult classic. I I I. joke I'm in the TEDex cult because I've. done [laughter] four TEDex talks, okay? And I love to watch them. I love to. learn. I love to uh to have fascinating. input in my brain or scuba diving. I I'm. passionate about scuba diving and. there's it's great. It's expensive. I. you know I have to buy equipment etc etc.

but it's it's my choice and nobody's. forcing me or guilt tripping me that I'm. a bad know that nobody's forcing you or. guilt tripping you. >> because I haven't I know my experience. and that's where it comes down to. trusting. >> but I mean this I genuinely don't mean. this faciciously I mean like many people. who are in cults go no I'm not forced to. be there families will say. >> I didn't think I was forced so that's. what I mean so that's what I'm saying is. like now it becomes this weird world. where you're saying, "I love scuba. diving." Now, I don't think scuba diving.

is a cult, but I'm saying we don't think. we're in a cult when we're in a cult, and we don't think we're not in a cult. when we're not in a cult. So, then when. are we in a cult, and when are we not in. a cult? >> So, now you're tapping into another very. important point. I knew you were going. to ask some good questions. So, how did. Steve get out of being a fanatical? >> No, first I want to know how Steve. became leader. I'm not forgetting that. I need to know how I go from I don't. want to be here to welcome to my haram.

>> I'm still stuck at wanting to meet the. real lead, the first leader. >> Yeah. So, there's so many stories. How. much time do we have? >> We got time for this. We got time. Okay. So, >> after this, we're watching The Exorcist. [laughter]. >> That was the first movie with subliminal. images, by the way. >> Like a flash just like a flashes of the. de devil were put in by the. [clears throat] filmmaker. He. >> Yeah. just like yeah. >> cuz it actually can bypass our. consciousness and we can be affected. emotionally. >> When did they introduce that law? And I.

I don't know if this is a myth, >> but I know in. >> enforce the law, >> okay, cuz I I remember reading once and. again I should go and double check it. now now that we have better search tools. >> that they changed the rules about like. ads specifically where you an ad has to. be longer than a certain period of time. on screen otherwise people don't know. that they've seen the ad. >> It's like you could just flash something. and then people are like m I'm craving. something now. We can talk for a week.

about what's happening online with. techniques that are being used by state. actors to hypnotically program the. craziest of beliefs. >> But back to my story. So what happened. in my case, interestingly, >> I think I got to the point in the story. where my mom had asked me to talk to the. rabbi. I'm sitting in my room with books. and I pick up a book. It was a book. about Gerjief. Yep. And I just my eyes. go on one sentence and I my brain.

interpreted that sentence as a message. that I needed to go to the group because. Gerief was dead and following a living. spiritual master was the way to go. And. so I still in my mind I wasn't joining. for my life. But I had this quandry. >> is the Messiah maybe coming or isn't it? So I wanted to know more and that's part. of the appeal at the beginning isn't to.

commit your life. >> but it's learn more curious. >> open your mind don't be close-minded. consider. >> that there's a bigger path for you. >> and where I got hooked was I was. selected by a top Japanese leader that. Moon had brought over to the United. States. Moon was very unhappy with the. American movement because they weren't. militant enough. So they brought this. top Japanese guy over and the Japanese. guy checked me out and he made me one of.

his disciples. >> So through this guy I got to be in the. room with Moon as we had discussions. about infiltrating the US government and. how God wants a theocracy and wants it. thinks democracy is satanic. I got to. hear all of these things in 1974. But I was a true believer because I. learned to shut down any doubts. And I believed that if I just followed. what Moon was saying cuz he was plugged.

into God, then the world would be saved. 10 generations of my ancestors on my. mother's and father's side would get out. of a terrible situation in the spirit. world, which I didn't believe in before. But but this is something that's always. confused me. Like you're talking about. the leaders are now in a room. I I've I've always wondered, do cult leaders themselves believe in. the cult? >> Yeah, it's a great question. >> But do they though?

>> It's a great question. >> But do they though? >> It's a great question. I can't say. definitively. I'm a forensic expert, but. I can tell you that when you're. surrounded only by Yes. people. you tend to believe what you want to. believe. >> that becomes your cult. >> So it becomes your reality. >> but it doesn't mean you don't have. doubts. >> Okay. But now this introduces now. >> I'll say one more thing that's.

>> so a lot of people think cult leaders. are just con artists and criminals. experience. Did I I'm sorry. No. interrupted your question. You didn't at. all. you. >> No, most cult leaders were in a cult. themselves before. That's where they. were trained. That's where they learned. a lot of these techniques. So, it's not um I'm a criminal cuz most. con artists and criminals, they want to. get in, make the money, and get out.

>> They don't want to create something for. 20 years and and follow and Yeah. It's a. lot of responsibility. >> uniform. >> but. >> Mhm. >> It turns out what I learned cuz I was a. whistleblower for a congressional. subcommittee investigation in 197 when I. got it in 76. They were looking into. Korean CIA activities in the United. States and the Mooneyies were a major. part of the Korean CIA. And what I later.

came to understand, we're getting into. politics. Is this okay? >> Yeah, definitely. [gasps]. >> What I what I understood was that. because North Korea brainwashes, this is. the height of the Cold War. >> Yeah. >> North Korea and South and South Korea. separated. There were two unsuccessful. coups in South Korea. The CIA thought we. have to stabilize the regime. So, we're. going to help them set up a Korean CIA. and we're going to pick a proxy group to.

brainwash political dissonance. and they. selected the mooneyies. So the mooneyies were used as a tool to. brainwash South Koreans. >> And they use the mooneyies to make arms. to give to dictatorships around the. world by passing congressional approval. >> Insane. >> No, but I'm not making this up. I've. written books on this. >> No, no. What I'm saying about insane is. like I go it's it's just crazy. Like the.

CIA, that's what my brain was thinking. was just like, wait, what? Wait, what's. happening here? >> Well, but come remember MK Ultra. Yeah. Okay. So, the CIA was experimenting with. LSD hypnosis. >> And after Jonestown, there was a. special. I think ABC did a special and. the head former head psychologist of the. CIA said, "Yeah, we researched. brainwashing, but we didn't find.

anything that worked and we burned our. records.". >> Lies. >> Total lies. And to this day, no. government has been honest with its. citizens of we know how to hack people's. brains. We know how to recruit and. indoctrinate people. But that's where. we're at now is we have to educate. everybody because America is being. hacked. We're we're in a coup. It's. really horrendous what's happening. And. people need to understand this is a cold.

war extension. We thought the Soviet. Union collapsed, we won. And Putin and. the other oligarchs who are KGB are like. we're taking down the US. You see, but. this is this is what I mean about. where we draw the distinctions. >> Mhm. >> Because in my head I'm going I hear when. there are specific cults and then I. understand what you're saying about the. bit, right?

>> But but then I go it feels like and. maybe I'm wrong, but it feels like to me. there are some overlaps between things. that are cultish. but not necessarily a cult. Sure. >> And then there are things that are. definitely cults but don't seem like a. cult. And so it leaves us in the space. where you go, is this a tool that cults. use or is this a tool of cults that. non-cults use? >> Oh, it goes both ways. >> Absolutely. >> So,

>> so you're not necessarily saying that. like everyone is in a cult or are you. saying that the inner cult? I can't. figure it out. >> Well, we have culture. I mean, I grew up. in the fear of the nuclear holocaust. and, you know, fearing Russia and. getting under my wooden desk at PS1 173. in Queens because Russia may nuke us. >> Um, and then I had my disillusionment. with America and Vietnam when I thought. it was a just war and I realized they. were lying from the whole time and they.

were just killing innocent people who. wanted their country, >> etc. But it was to fight communism. In any case, [sighs and gasps]. what what I want to say is that we are. either going to continue to evolve as a. species with the goal of planetary. survival, which means cooperation with. other countries. Or it's the. authoritarians versus the rest of us. >> Yeah. you know, who want rule of law and.

human rights and gay rights and women's. rights and indigenous rights and. minority religious rights. So, I think. that there's more of us than them and we. just need to understand correctly to. diagnose the situation and approach it. >> Now, actually to that question though, this is something I've always struggled. and grappled with, but I I've gone. Should. we try to immunize everybody from cult.

or cultish ideas and is that realistic. or should we focus more on the. environmental. um circumstances that make it easier for. somebody to be in that situation? So. going back going back to what you were. saying, you know, you playing football, you know, in your in your little one of. the things that stuck out to me was your. friends weren't there that day. >> Do you get what I'm saying? So that. becomes the first I I think you're less. likely to go talk to these people and to.

be taken away. >> when my friends. >> if your friends were there. So. >> I just identify one point by myself as. Trevor. I go like oh okay so if you have. a robust community maybe it's less. likely and then I and then I think of. like economic situations or. circumstance. So. >> if you're in an environment where you. know you're not hungry and you're you're. not desperate and you're not you're not. heartbroken. Yeah. You were heartbroken. You were alone in the cafeteria. Mhm. >> I'm just picking up some of these. traits. Horny as well. >> We can't skip that one.

>> We can't skip horny. We can't skip. horny. >> Not steal. >> But [laughter]. >> we can't skip horny. >> So you go, "No, but people have needs.". >> Yes, but this is Yes. [laughter] This is. my point. >> And but destructive groups are trying to. say that's a that's an evil impulse and. you should suppress it. And it's, you. know, and that's where we get into an. overlap with groups that are giving. informed consent. >> and groups that aren't. >> and aren't. Yeah. And so, you know, the. ones that say it's it's unnatural to.

have sexual thoughts, it's like you. don't understand human psychology. But. now, but this is what I'm so this is. what I I come back to like let's say. when we talk about it's now if we if we. shift the lens into politics, >> you know, and people go, oh, what. politics is doing, what authoritarian. regimes are doing, etc. I've found very few instances, I'm not a. historian, but when I read or when I. watch a documentary or I found very few. instances of authoritarian regimes that. were able to start in good times.

>> Do do you get what I'm saying? >> Absolutely. >> So that's another really important point. that you're making. And I when I did my. doctoral dissertation, I included a law. professor's model called the social. influence model. >> Okay. which he created for expert. witnesses to explain to judges and. juries how to evaluate social influence. And he said you have to look at the. influency and their vulnerabilities. whether they were you know young they. were a minor 15 years old or they had.

been assaulted as a child or whatever. >> the influencer or the predator of the. predatory organization. Was it a priest. or was it a teacher or was it someone. twice their age? etc. And this whole set. of criteria around malignant narcissism, pimps and traffickers are are are also. and how they groom and recruit and. indoctrinate people and what are the. consequences. So, it's a formula. When.

there's economic uncertainty, political. turmoil, people are more confused than. ever and they want hope. >> and desperate. >> and and so trust me, I know more than. the generals. I know more than the. economists, you know, tr you do a better. Trump than me. Anyway, [laughter]. >> don't get him started. >> I know more than any trust me. But it. the the the the thing is falling apart. now. the illusion over the Epstein files.

and and. >> yeah that no that's created a whole Yes. But KQAnon was a scop. It was using. alternate game technology to recruit. people into believing that there was. this conspiracy of traffickers that. >> But wait, was it though because I It's. interesting. I I don't know what the. origins or or not of QAnon are. like you. know definitively cuz I remember I. remember I remember um seeing that some. people said that QAnon was this like.

deep conspiracy or organization that was. trying to control and then another group. said QAnon was literally started by like. trolls from 4chan and those pages. >> well it was started on 4chan. >> okay yeah but but I thought it was. started as like a joke they were like. I'm going to go out there joke initially. goof on the Trumpers there were three. people I found this out from a source. who knows cuz he was there and he said. then they realized they could make money. selling merch and then the Russians got.

involved. >> and we know Michael Flynn got involved. >> and we know this because a PhD who has a. company that's able to analyze Twitter. We can track back to the first mentions. of QAnon and where we go when we go all. the hashtags and you can literally find. who are the trolls, who's recruiting. who, etc. So, we have forensic evidence. and I actually did a bite model analysis.

of QAnon. >> So, how how do people get indoctrinated. into a cult that they're not physically. a part of? Because because that would. that would defy what people believe a. cult is then someone goes, I'm not in a. cult. I'm at home. Mhm. >> Minding my own business. I don't wear a. uniform. >> I don't. >> Yeah. But I I can I can turn it off. Like unlike you who's stuck in Terry. Town for the weekend turned itself on. >> by itself. I did turn. >> Unlike Unlike Terry Town where you're. like trapped. You can't go home. >> I can't be in a cult on my phone. I just.

turn the thing off. >> Well, so ask people to turn off their. phone for 24 hours and. >> Are you crazy? You want me to miss out. on my life? >> So, >> sorry guys. Sorry. Sorry. [laughter]. But but. >> so here's where reality testing is so. important and you you've hit on a lot of. key points and I want to emphasize I. believe you should have a trust pod. You. were talking about Eugene should if you. had friends that they would have. protected.

>> You have a trust pod where you watch. each other's back and even take roles. who's going to be the contrarian. You. know, if Trevor says, "I want to go to. this workshop in Maui with, you know, this or that." And Eugene goes, "Hey, dude, I checked this out and this guy's. a a leech or he's, you know, >> Maui. >> Maui, I'll go." [laughter]. >> Okay. >> But in any case, >> reality testing. So, coming back to my. story, what helped Stephen get out of.

this cult? He was willing to die on. command, kill on command. >> What happened? Steve fell asleep at the. wheel of a van. Drove into the back of a. tractor trailer truck on the Baltimore. beltway at 80 miles an hour. Was trapped. for a half an hour before I was rescued. Needed surgery, but I was away from the. cult. >> Oh, for two weeks circumstances. separated you from. >> eating. Well, my calling divine. intervention. >> My brain came back online because it.

wasn't constant. I was sleeping three to. four hours a night in the car. >> You switched off your phone for two. weeks. >> I had no phone. This was 76 proverbial. phone. >> Yeah, that's what I'm saying. >> No, I literally So, that opened the door. to me calling my sister who was the only. one in my family that didn't say I was. brainwashed in a cult. She convinced me. to visit and meet my nephew who had been. born. I made her promise not to tell my. parents cuz I was afraid of being. deprogrammed. >> Mhm. and she told my parents and they.

took my crutches away and I I had a. situation where I was going to be. deprogrammed and I was going to snap my. father's neck while he was driving a car. on the Long Island Expressway. >> And I thought, but I know God and I know. father and they can't get me out of. doing God's will. So why don't I prove. to them I'm not an occult and I'm not. brainwashed. So that's what my my.

thought process was. And what helped me. get out was learning what Chinese. communist brainwashing methods were. >> What are they? >> What were they? >> So they used a book that was published. in 1961 called. >> Thought Re. No. >> Oh, another one. >> There's some red on the front cover, believe it or not. It's called Thought. Reform: The Psychology of Totalism, a. study of brainwashing in China by. psychiatrist Robert J. Clifton, former. Air Force psychiatrist, and he outlined.

eight criteria in chapter 22, how to. evaluate whether environment does. brainwashing. And every single one the mooneyies did. >> Do you remember them off hand? >> Of course, this is my work. Yes. But I. was like, we're God. They're Satan. Communism is Satan, >> but we're doing the same brainwashing. This this is where the the dissonance. when my brain started kicking into gear. So millure control is control of the.

environment and communication. >> Okay. >> Uh sacred science where you claim to. have the ultimate science and moral. vision. Okay. For the thing. >> uh loaded language which are basically. thought terminating cliches. >> that because words are the tools we use. to think. >> Okay. So if you can have buzzwords, fake news changed, you know, don't think. about what the content was, just label. it fake news.

>> Um, what else? Uh, demand for purity, which is a. perfectionism where they always keep. raising the bar. So you always are. feeling shameful or insufficient. >> Okay? >> So you always are trying harder and. harder. uh the cult of confession and. that talks about information control. finding everything about your background. and if you are you know feeling guilty. over something you did they use it.

against you they have people turning in. each other if they break the rules this. is all outlined in my bite model that. because I taken his model and made it. more codified. >> uh one of the most important ones is. called dispensing of existence. and that says if you're in the cult you. have a right to exist and if you leave. then you're nothing. You're a. non-person. You can be killed. You can. be lied to or whatever. And it's.

Lifton's description of cancel culture. Wow. Cancel people. The right does it, the. left does it. But you I say, you know, people should have the right to leave an. environment if they're not happy or they. find something better. >> Wow. Wow. >> If it's healthy, you let people go. Nope. You You left us and you're the. enemy now. >> Yeah. And so you're no longer human. You're no longer You disagree on this. >> So you're a traitor. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Right. So but you know, >> but no, you see now, okay, now my brain. then goes everything is then a cult. That's what my brain says because I. Okay. So let me tell you why. So I'm. saying. cult comes from culture. So we have. culture. We need culture. >> No, I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm I'm. I'm saying. >> both on my behalf and someone who's. listening to this, >> right? >> I start with like let's say a family. A. family can say we are the Johnson's. You.

are a Johnson. I am a Johnson. And in. the Johnson family, we always have. dinner at 700 p.m. And at the Johnson. household, we go for walks on Saturdays. And you know what I mean? And if you. don't like it, you can leave. But if you. leave this house, we will cut you off. from the Johnson's and you're no longer. Johnson and you will never walk into. this house. >> Have a healthy family. >> Okay, but that's so if you have the. influence continuum chart, folks, please. go download it so you have it in front.

of you and you can understand this. Healthy parenting. recognizes that each child is a unique. being and healthy parenting is to help. that unique being grow up to adulthood. to become their best self. >> It's developmentally appropriate. It's. not too micromanaging. It's not being. too permissive. It's giving challenges. It's not not constant praise. It's. rewarding effort.

>> and it's also not setting them up for. failure. >> and not setting them up. Right. >> Correct. An. >> addiction of some parents. >> So we know models of excellence for. healthy attachment like you need you. need to keep babies off of screens for. the first 3 years. This is. wellestablished. neuroscientifically. Not even TV. screens. No iPads, no phones because the. baby's brain is. >> malleable. >> Yes. And it's pruning neurons and it.

needs to smell mommy and daddy and needs. to feel our heartbeat, hear our voice, reading books to the child etc. This. helps to the child to feel loved and to. feel safe and secure. >> Healthy attachment is the key to. avoiding all personality disorders. >> Unhealthy families are authoritarian. They want the kids to be obedient. They. often do corporal punishment, which is.

illegal in most civilized countries, except here. >> But beating children is traumatic to the. brain. It does not encourage children to. think differently and act differently, etc. M. >> and and um and often kids who are gay, if they're in a homophobic church or. something, are kicked out and then. they're picked up by pimps or. traffickers or somebody else on the. street and more trauma happens. So when.

when you say, Steve, some families are. authoritarian cults, I'm like, yes. >> Yeah. No, but that's what that's what I. mean by everything is a do you get what. I'm saying? So I'm saying. >> I wasn't beaten as a child. I was I I. honestly I had very. >> That's why you went off on a weekend. doing nonsense things. Steve, you see. when Steve, if you were in my house, you. would have Hey, w Steve, where you. going? Schwini, we can Hey, Steve. Yeah, cult. You'll.

see your cult. >> But when you grow up with [laughter] an. authoritarian, you're going to be attracted to an. authoritarian cult because it's. familiar. >> That's the thing. The familiarity of. control. >> Sorry. As you speak, I'm thinking about. how a lot of commercials uh how a lot of. TV shows, there's a TV show where people. who are frustrated with their own lives. enter into a house, meet up with. strangers, >> a reality TV, >> reality TV show. They're trapped into. this house with cameras everywhere.

There's a confessional booth where they. go in and say their desires. >> to a a faceless person that speaks to. only them at that time and can find a. way to manipulate so that they can get. what they want. And the ultimate. objective is to co-opt everyone outside. the house, which is the viewer to vote. for them. But there's temptation in the. middle of it cuz you can't have sex. inside the house. But if you do, make. sure that you're not seen. But the. camera can see you cuz it's got night. vision camera. So that causes disorder. inside the house. But ultimately, the. most deceitful, the one who plays the.

game the best, will ultimately become. the leader of the house once a week and. will ultimately win the show. The show. is called Big Brother. >> Yeah. >> Wait, are you you I mean, >> so I. >> It's crazy that they're like just taking. >> So. >> they should have to pay royalties to the. cult. So the what we need is to. celebrate people who have virtue and who. are good people and not. >> go first in the house. >> and not malignant narcissists. We should. shame.

>> malignant narcissists who have hundreds. of billions of dollars and they could be. feeding the poor and they're pushing for. for legislation so people don't have. health care and they can't feed. children. Shame on them. And and. seriously, we need to start getting out. of the, you know, the Hollywood and all. of the social influence that this is. okay to harm people and trick people and. abuse people for entertainment. I was talking with one of your your your.

production people, Trevor, before and I. was just saying that there's so many. cult documentaries and they're not. educational. >> Yeah. Why why the trauma point because. they're not explaining. >> what are the techniques that are being. used in a way that the listener can. understand and yeah and protect. themselves and see how it could have. happened to them. >> It's like trauma porn. Oh, look how. screwed up they allowed it to be branded. with, you know, their crotch with no.

anesthesia. >> That's not the the the message I want. people to because I'm a survivor of a. cult. I mean, that's that's why I've. devoted my life to this is because it's. like. >> it never. I I've entered into a world where people. need to know this on a global scale, >> but we're going to lose our world. >> Like, it's getting really crazier and. crazier. >> and it's not healthy.

>> Don't press anything. We've got more. what now after this. This episode is brought to you by our. friends at Survey Monkey. You know, Eugene, I don't know if you've ever. thought of starting a business, but. every time I think about people who. start businesses, I'm like, man, you. need a specific kind of bravery. And by. bravery, I mean terrifying uncertainty. Because think about it right now, everywhere in the world, there are. people making massive lifealtering. decisions based entirely on a vibe, just.

a feeling in their gut. >> That was me when joining the podcast. >> You know what I mean? >> But what if you actually knew the truth. when you started a business? What if you. knew your direct reports weren't just. nodding along, but actually had thoughts. that they were too polite to tell you? >> Or what if you knew that your best. customers were already halfway out the. door to a competitor? Because let's face. it, we like to say follow your heart, but in business, ignorance is a very. expensive hobby. The good news, Eugene, is that Survey Monkey takes the fear out. of asking and the doubt out of deciding.

It's the difference between walking into. a meeting with a hunch and walking in. with 500 validated opinions, which. mathematically is better for your blood. pressure. The truth might hurt for a. second, but it's cheaper than being. wrong. So, let's get you a survey and. some actual answers. Sign up for an. annual plan at surveymonkey.com/wattnow. and use the code whatnow for two months. free. That's 2 months free with code. whatnow at surveymonkey.com/w. whatnow. You have any questions? Is it. too late for me to run a survey about.

who doesn't like you in the podcast? >> What do you mean who doesn't like you? Like like me. >> Like you. Yes. Specifically the person. in front of me. >> I think surveys are supposed to be. anonymous so that people's feelings. don't get hurt. >> But I did type anonymous there. Well, I. mean, now I'll know that you typed it. because Do Do you have a problem with. the working condition? >> I haven't sent it, >> but you want to make a survey about. >> I haven't sent it. >> yet. You can [music] just use the code. what now to get two months free when you. do it. Still have two months to complain. about you. [music] I feel like this got.

personal. >> [music]. >> It's interesting when you say um when. you talk about how people speak about. themselves post a cult, >> a lot of it sounds similar. >> to how people speak about themselves. post an authoritarian regime. >> Yeah. You know, so like when they when. they interviewed people when they. interviewed people post Hitler and the. Nazis, they asked many Germans and. they're like, I I I didn't, you know, I.

just found myself being part of this and. I I I didn't know and I I I really just. found myself and when they would talk to. people in in America who were part of, you know, whether it was the Klas clan. or whether they go like I. >> I just felt myself being swept up in a. wave and looking back I can't believe. that that's me. That's what a lot of. people say. I I can't believe South. Africans who you know what I mean. South. Africans who like I can't believe I ever. thought that I I just can't it's it's. thising. world where they do not see themselves.

themselves from the. >> Yeah. from from the person. >> and it feels like the same thing. It's. like in the moment someone can do. anything and then in hindsight go I. can't believe that that would have been. me. I can't believe that. >> Right. But instead of walking away, I. realized because I have such a unique. perspective, having been in the room. where they talked about taking over the. United States and destroying. [clears throat]. the rule of law and and and separation. of church and state and everything, I. feel an obligation to say, "Hello,

here's how they're doing it. M. >> these are the techniques we have to. teach everyone how to protect. themselves, how to talk to pe family and. friends who've been radicalized. >> A lot of people have blocked their. family and friends because they can't. talk about what's a mistake that. families make when doing that, you know, because like you you said something. interesting. You said, "I spoke to my. sister because she was the only one who. didn't say to me that I was crazy and I. was in a cult.". >> Correct.

>> But I didn't speak to the rest of my. family. So what can someone do right to. have a conversation with someone in. their family who they feel is an occult? >> Perfect question. So I explain the real. Steve and the Mooney Steve. >> The Mooney Steve is trained that if any. attack happens against Moon or the. doctor or the policy, >> defend, label it as evil, chant, pray to. them. So what do we learn from this? We.

say never attack with logic and facts. the leader, the doctrine or the policy. of the group that the person is in. >> because it will make them deeper. >> Mhm. >> It will you as the enemy. >> Mhm. >> Okay. That's rule number one. What works. is finding out from the person another. group. >> that they think is a cult or is. brainwashed. >> That is hilarious. And with MAGA, it's. Chinese communist brainwashing or pimps.

and traffickers. [clears throat]. >> That is hilarious. >> And explaining the bite model and how. people get taken in and how they are. programmed and these behaviors. And the. critical technique that works is being. warm, >> being respectful, being an active. listener, and asking good questions just. like you do. You ask good questions that. make people think. That's the goal, not. to persuade them to leave,

>> to reality test for themselves, >> but if you understand the techniques. that were used on them, like I was. saying before, I ask people, go back, what was your first feeling and thought. when that person invited you to the. thing? I remember very. >> I remember it was odd or I had a feeling. in my pit of my stomach. there was. something wrong and now that you know. more how would you have liked to respond. I would have liked to have questioned it.

or I would have liked to say no way Jose. or whatever but the point is people want. to be free people don't like to be. abused and lied to but they need a face. saving way to exit so if they understand. how pimps recruit women to be sex slaves. or labor trafficking victims if they. understand the method methods and you. ask them so what's your understanding of. how intelligent people can be controlled. that way and give them the tools and ask.

them to go back and reflect because a. lot of people hated Trump and then they. got converted who converted them watched. the movie they went to a rally they had. a friend at work like get them to. remember what they thought they were. hearing and learning. >> those those I uh you know I've seen a. lot of people I mean I've obviously read. about your book and and you know what. people have said and.

you were welcomed into many spaces. when you were writing just about cults. right then you. >> every TV show in America 60 minutes. everything. >> yeah you were everywhere basically and. then you wrote a book. >> entitled the cult of Trump. >> for Simon and Schuster Yeah. And then. all of a sudden you were sort of. >> crickets. >> Yeah. >> Now we all know doesn't matter who you. are. You don't even this is not like a.

political thing. You just know many news. organizations many TV station they've. just been very afraid to be on the wrong. side of Trump. Companies as well. This. is not like a forget the politics side. They've even said look we're not trying. to we're not trying to get on the wrong. side of Trump. But I want to know what. the push back was that you got on Trump. And I also want to know why you. why you so confidently could say that it. is the cult of Trump when someone who. supports Trump would go like no hey I'm. voting for um you know my country I'm.

voting for the border I'm I'm this is. politics yeah but also this is politics. why are you making this about about a. cult this has nothing to do with a cult. so I invite you to read the cult of. Trump because it still is valid. everything's been validated. >> when I was asked by my book agent and. Simon and. >> when did you write it by the way this. was It came out in 2019. >> I wrote it in 2019. The Muller. investigation was going on. >> Um, I started because I grew up in New.

York knowing that Donald Trump was a. malignant narcissist because I knew Eric. from work about Hitler. I knew about. cults. So, I knew he had a cult of. personality for sure and the people who. worked for him were in that cult. But. what I understood when I started. researching was there are actual. authoritarians. cults that comprise the cult of Trump. that bring millions of their followers. to follow Trump. And I put.

>> suborganizations essentially. >> For example, I mentioned New Apostolic. Reformation Churches and megaurches and. there is 30 to 40 million Americans in. those that are saying that Trump won the. 2020 election and Trump is the vessel of. God. I've seen some of them say, >> "Yeah, he's a King Cyrus figure, etc.". >> So, I made a distinction between people. who just always voted Republican, just. voting Republican the first time, but. the second time things have gotten.

connected with the billionaire techies. >> Yeah. hacking Facebook and algorithms. and state level manipulation of people's. perceptions and minds. It's not just. this information. [sighs and gasps]. So I talk about a cult called the family. that recruit recruited Democrats and. Republicans into it. They were doing the. National Prayer Breakfast. Jeffrey. Charlotte wrote two New York Times.

best-selling books and did a Netflix. series on this political cult. I wrote. about Opus Day, which was a Catholic. cult that was saying the Pope was. satanic. They're the ones who put in the. Federalist Society Supreme Court. justices. They're the ones behind the. Heritage Foundation Project 2025, Opus. Day, and I've helped many people get out. of that group. Um, so I talk about different cults. The.

Fallen Gang does the Epic Times, Scientology, the Mormons. The Mormon, nobody wants to talk about the Mormons. as an authoritarian group, but talk to. former leaders of the Mormons and. they'll tell you what it's like. pyramid. structure B I T. >> and you can go on my Substack and go. through some of the criteria fit, some. of them don't depending on where you are. in the pyramid or if you're a fringe. member.

But um so the po the point is also that. I named Russia as one of the puppet. masters because I came to understand. that when Trump was first in Moscow in. 1987. and came back he took out a full page ad. in the New York Times saying NATO should. be disbanded. >> He did it back then. >> 87. >> Oh, I didn't know that. >> Yeah. and he had no political thing.

before that and who paid for that. And I. interviewed Craig Unger who has written. numerous books um he's a very respected. author. I interviewed him and a former. KGB official. Um for his book American. Compromat. and the former KGB official, no kidding, I had a two-part podcast. He said, "I. was much higher up in the KGB than. Vladimir was. It was standard operating.

procedure to take Western businessmen. and co-opt them for our purposes.". And so, and then he named the place in. New York City and and the Russian the. Russians have been. getting revenge on on the United States. ever since. And that's what people are. Russia hoaxes. Russia hoax. It's like. read the Muller report. There were. Russians named. >> Yeah. But you see this is this is where.

I now my brain. >> come on. Let's go buddy. >> No, but it's like my thing is bring it. on. >> I spent seven years like just in a world. in inundated by this stuff. And the. thing I started realizing was. >> the fingers that could be pointed in. terms of how people saw the world in. like the Trump world. Man, I also saw. people who are anti-Trump. There's like. an anti-Trump cult as well. Then if. that's the case, where some people go. every anti-Trump and I'm like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait." I go, "But okay, this.

this has nothing." No, no, no. You see, he he he did this and this is I'm like, "Okay, but what are you basing this on?". Genuinely, what are you basing this on? You're basing one person who showed you. one video who made you think and I know. you hate him but you should also not now. just become a default. >> correct. >> anti- anything. >> correct. >> because you might now be indoctrinated. You see what you just said? >> No, you're absolutely right. >> And that's what I say when I talk to any. person in any group is like change my.

mind. I'm really I'll listen to whatever. proof you have. I'll show you my proof, you show me your proof, and let's if if. it's legitimate, it will stand up to. scrutiny. >> Someone might ask this question. They. they might ask, and I'd love to hear. your response on someone might say, "Okay, but if if Trump is a cult, then. how come his people are angry with him. about the Epstein files and Marjgerie. Taylor Green is turned against him?" And. why is that happening then? >> What would your what would your response. be? >> I'll tell you in one minute, but I first.

want to just say two points. Forgive me. No, you're the you're the. >> So if you're Russia and you want to do. psychological warfare on the United. States, you want polarization and you. want division. >> So you're not just influencing the right. one, you're influencing the left. >> Oh, completely. Yes. >> So authoritarian manipulation is. happening on both extremes to create. confusion. So that's one point. >> Let me interrupt you on that point to.

add to it. By the way, >> same team here. and care about humanity. >> Yeah. Yeah. But in and around not just. the the the start of the war in Ukraine, etc. >> Microsoft did this whole thing where. they analyzed a lot of where the. information was coming from from like. the farms and everything. >> And that is something that I wish more. people understood to your point. Fight. if you want to fight, disagree if you. want to disagree, but also know what is. prompting your disagreement. And they did find genuinely that a lot.

of the posts that were coming out. online, both proTrump, anti-Trump, pro-democrat, no were coming from the same Russian. farms. Yeah. Yeah. Full on. >> troll farms. >> Yeah. Full on troll farms. And and then. I mean I'll always say with a little. asterisk I go I always find it funny. though that like America says well the. Russian then I'm like but also you guys. I mean you're the professionals of the. it's just a funny you know a world of. every country doing developed all these.

tools that are being used on us. >> Yeah. >> No big and this is where we have to. understand complex systems. >> Yes. Yes. We invented roadside bombs for. the Afghans to use on the Russians and. then we went into Afghanistan that were. used on Americans. Like we were. developing all of these technologies. etc. and it's being used on us. So for. but it's a complex system genuinely. >> So it's moving. >> So the other point I want to make is.

something called fourth and fifth. generation psychological warfare. >> I wrote about this in the cult of Trump. Fourth generation warfare was first. written down as a thing in the 80s by a. guy, a military strategist, American. military strategist named William Lind. And it's about attacking experts, science, and democratic institutions. to demoralize a society so you can.

influence and put in a dictatorship or. whatever. >> Yeah. Replace one authority figure with. another. >> Right. But so because human beings we. can't know everything. We depend on. experts who spend the depend on. institutions most important and we want. to trust the experts but that's we've. seen a systematic assault on experts and. on science. >> There's good science and there's. science. Good science doesn't. say we have the truth. that says we have. an hypothesis and we test and we have a.

community of people who test the test to. make sure that it really is what it says. and if we have a better hypothesis we. get rid of the old one and we go with. the new one that's progress that's what. we should be having. >> so fourth generation cycle will William. Lynn met with Trump in the white house. connected with Michael Flynn who would. do it on the enemies of the United. States before he got turned. and he's gotten involved with the.

Christian right that thinks that we. should have a white Christian country. and that everyone else you know is. inferior etc. Like that's a real thing. The guy who did the apprentice, Mark. Bernett, is head of Seven De Mountain De. Seven Mountain Dominionism, the media. part who who made Trump's. um image as a successful businessman on. that show. >> Yeah. When he was completely failing, >> but he was he was a Christian. He's a.

Christian Dominionist. So we need to understand there are. specific actors and positions of. influence and they this has been going. on for decades. This is not something. that happened overnight. But all of this. wouldn't have been easy to achieve if. the status quo had done a better job of. making sure that Americans weren't in a. place where their rents and mortgages. were out of control, where food became.

unaffordable, where schooling and. healthcare was un Do you get what I'm. saying? So I'm not disagreeing with. that, but I'm just saying. >> we we also we I think we should be. careful to just like sort of blame. cults, >> but in this system not understand that. people are a lot less amanable to these. ideas if the people in power actually. address their needs and concerns. Do do. you know what I mean? We we want to be. angry with people for becoming a certain. way, but we don't want to be angry with.

why the situation existed for them to be. even open to be becoming that way. >> Yeah. Desperation and isolation, right? >> Absolutely. We want to be solution. focused. You know, we can analyze what. went wrong and how they. >> because otherwise otherwise we go Trump. bad or we go that thing bad or Yeah. But. then you don't you don't like go no no. no no no. What's bad is people feeling. like they just have to vote to break a. system because the system is not caring. for them. When we had uh you know mayor. of New York now Zoran Mandani when we.

had him on the show he talked about. Yeah. where he goes the people don't. they don't even even him is a response. in that way to that people are going. look we don't care about all these old. school Democrat there's no one else in. this race we're going to vote for this. guy and then people like he's going to. break New York and they're like it's. better he breaks it because the fixed. New York was not working for most people. in New York do do you get what I'm. saying so it's this it's this world. where you're trying to find a balance. between as you're saying analyzing the. the the thing that's doing something.

wrong Right. >> And then cuz it's interesting seeing by. the way Marjgerie Taylor Green I find I. find. her and I can. >> because of what you're saying. >> Yeah. >> Some of it speaks to exactly what you're. talking about. Marjgerie Taylor Green. has fully been with Trump from the. beginning. Fully fully fully. >> Then she basically said, "Hey man, this. guy's deviating off the path. We we said. America first. We said no Epstein. We. said what is happening here?" And then. now she's been cast as the, you know,

the traitor and we will never talk to. her and she's out on her own. And it it. it's interesting how that ties into what. you're saying. >> Yeah. Well, that's part of what you. realize when you're in an authoritarian. group that you think the other members. are your friends, but you see what happens if somebody. questions it or doesn't go along and how. badly they're treated. People get that. message and they're like, they're. they're they'll they'll only be my.

friend if I obey. >> and if I conform and do exactly what I'm. told. [sighs]. >> Look, um. I don't trust Marjorie Taylor Green. until she says cuz she's saying I'm not. in a cult. I'm not in a cult. I'm a cult. expert. Kinanon was a cult. I wrote a. whole bite model analysis. I called it a. sciop. I I analyze why it it's an online.

cult, but it was a mind control cult. Until she gets what I'm talking about, until she says Trump did win, excuse me, Biden did win the 2020 election and. anyone who says that Trump won it is in. the cult. Until she says that, I don't. trust anything she says. You you think. that she's just sort of making a. splinter cult? >> Yep. >> Is that common in cults, by the way? >> Yes. >> Oh, >> yeah. >> Cuz she doesn't understand brainwashing.

and mind control. And there are those. colleagues of mine who thinks that she's. co-opted by Russia. >> Damn. The Russians. The Russ I would like to go get co-opted. by Russia. It sounds like a fun vibe. >> Criminal. criminal. You know, >> you guys are haters, man. You guys are. haters, man. >> You're too nice. >> You guys are just haters out in these. streets. >> You choose ice. >> So, I I have [laughter] another quick. story. Do we have time for another. story? >> Okay, go for We got time for one more.

story. 1993. I'm invited to Moscow. Soviet Union fell. >> and they said every cult from the United. States is coming into mother Russia and. we want to psychiatrists and. psychologists we want to understand what. are cults and what is what what is this. all about? >> Like they were they were experiencing. cults coming in. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, the Soviet Union collapsed. >> and opened the wall and and the mental. health people are like, "What's going on.

here with all of these Western groups. that are showing up?". >> So, they brought me over. They didn't. pay me. I paid my way and went to Moscow. and I taught my work. >> So, I'm teaching about Chinese communist. brainwashing and my model. And they're. like, "Dr. Husten, don't you understand? you're describing the whole system of. pedagogy of the Soviet Union. And I said, "Uh-huh." And they said, "Don't you understand? We would put.

dissident into psychiatric facilities. because they were criticizing the. regime." And I'm like, "Uh-huh.". And they're like, "Oh, so you are. counseling us.". >> That is so insane. >> And I said, "If if the shoe fits.". And then beyond those psychiatrists. >> wait but how did they respond to that? Were they were they like. >> no they were they were understanding the. model because the model is it does it. doesn't have any.

>> interesting so so the model is agnostic. the model the model you can you're. basically saying to everyone hey I'm not. saying anything about your world here's. a model. >> I'm just going to put in front of you. and then you just need and here's the. influence. here's healthy and here's unhealthy. You. decide for yourself. That's my approach. >> is you determine reality. >> Please don't use it. Just now you're not. helping me with couches anymore. I know. how this goes. >> I have a disciple here in my midst. >> You know, all of this is interesting to.

me, especially when you think of where. our country comes from. >> Yeah. >> And how you find that people who grew up. in the generation during apart sometimes. long for those days. >> when things don't work out the way they. should according to them. They'll always. say things were better during that time. And I'm not talking about the oppressor. I'm talking about the oppressed. >> No, I and and slavery in the United. States. That was psychological. brainwashing done. >> to not only the slaves but everyone. else. >> Apply the bite model and it's like duh.

Of course. >> And you think of how many people still. long for those days when they talk about. efficiency of anything, public. transport, the roads, housing, education. And this is my biggest pet. peeve and I've spoken to you about it. with many of our other guests and I've. said I hate how arts and culture have. been slowly been eroded out of the. schooling system. When you grew up you. had a mother that was doing this and you. wereant you were writing poetry. You. were reading three books. You were. riding a bicycle. All of that is being. eradicated. And I see these young adults.

that have tried so hard to get an. education and a job. Well, before you. would know this, >> you it would have to be an interrogation. or an a a a communist country or an. authoritarian country that has video. footage of people saying how they feel, good or bad. >> Right. >> Right now, it's volunteered to everyone. with these people with people on social. media. So now they're co-opting. themselves. They're recruiting. themselves for their next employee and. showing their desperation and the and. the dead end that some systems that.

they've taken have taken them. and. they're going to AI to do creativity. instead of themselves going inside. >> It's like we're living in this weird. dystopia. I think some if someone was in. a cryogenic. coffin and wakes up now 40 years later, they would be shocked to see what's. happening now. It's people are literally. doing their own depositions in the. comfort of their own homes with their. own devices and sending them out for for. the world to see. >> And and the brain adapts to whatever.

environment's happening. And if you. spend 10 to 12 hours on digital devices, it's going to rewire your brain. Attention spans are shrinking. Creativity is shrink. >> It is exactly the same debate that when. I was growing up, our parents would say, "We're spending too much time watching. television." This time, this generation. is spending too much time making. television. >> Damn. >> No, you're right. And I I'm guilty. I. watch TV, but I also read a lot of. books. >> Yeah, I was the same. I was a bit of a. mix of both, you know. >> No, technology is both a positive.

That's fantastic and can be used. negatively. And we have to be wise. >> We have to be [clears throat] wise. We. have to really realize how precious it. is to have freedom. >> for ex members. We know what it's like. to live in authoritarian. >> state. Even though I didn't grow up in. China or Russia, but China wants to make. us like them. All this surveillance crap. with Palunteer and cameras everywhere. >> Yeah. But ironically now you can't.

really separate a lot of how China works. with how the US is trying to work. >> That's what I'm saying. This is this is. not it's. >> we we need to keep the vision of what. humanity and what you know human life's. about. When people are on their deathbed. they're not going damn I wish I had. another million dollars. They're like, "I should have spent more time with my. kids, or I always wanted to go kaying, or I always wanted to learn scuba. diving, or whatever." And it's like, we.

need to come back to this is a very. unique, precious opportunity to be. alive. And we have an amazing I I'm so. grateful to meet you cuz I've been. listening to you for years and I'm like, damn, Trevor wants me to be on. I'm. coming. >> Oh, you're very kind. >> I'm flying. No, I mean it because this. has been a really interesting. conversation cuz you you're getting at. key things. >> Yeah. >> And we'll do a part two at some point. cuz there's so much more that we can. say. >> This is my kind of guy. >> You know, we speak about this all the.

time. We need more people who are coming. back. I'm coming back for part two is. the way to go. [laughter]. >> No, we there's a lot with different. character. >> You know what? This this was this was. amazing. Yeah. >> Actually, what's interesting what you've. just mentioned and you've made me. realize it. I'm very people who know me, they know that I'm I'm very much against. technology. I think there's a word that. you use to describe me. >> A ladite term. >> So, >> I try not to know as much about. technology because I still like the.

human experience. I like I'd like us to. throw information to each other and not. Google if it's true or not and we can. discuss. I'd like some other things to. be done physically. I try to spend as. much time as I can in the outdoors and. go on side quests and find new. adventures and things to learn. And. that's what I wish for for many people. is to just try things out. Try as much. as you can to create your own memories. instead of viewing other people's. memories. >> Hey bro, >> you know, and build social. relationships, you know. >> No, that's a big one. Create your own.

memories and not explore everyone. else's. >> And and just appreciate the human. experience. Every time we meet someone. new, it's like opening another book and. going, "Wow, tell me your story." You. know, like show tell me your journey. That's what you started with me and but. it's fascinating. I'm a therapist so I. get to hear incredible stories and help. people in their way. But I'm helping. them to help themselves. So I'm not. making myself you follow me and I'll. tell you how to get fixed. I'm teaching. them the techniques and strategies that.

worked for me and that has worked with. other clients. >> And there's reason to be hopeful and. grateful, but we need to have strategy. We need to correctly diagnose the. problem and we need to understand who's. the bad actors and we need to have a. plan. >> where we can bring out the best in each. other. >> to to s sustain this earth. We're on one. planet. >> You know, I'll tell you now,

Dr. Hassan, I like didn't know you. before I met you. >> Same. >> Now, now I've met you. You've pulled me. in, man. I'm in your cult. >> I'm in. >> Sign me up. So, >> let's go to Cherry Town for the weekend. >> Call me Steve. [laughter]. >> That van and let's roll. >> And so, I say freedom of mind is what I. decided to name my company, not Steven. Hassan Foundation. Freedom of mind. I. say it's your mind and only you should. control it. >> It's like own it.

>> You can make mistakes but learn. Don't. make the same mistake twice. >> but don't be paralyzed and not try new. things. >> Yeah. Be open to other perspectives. That's another key. Blind faith, the. cure is perspective. >> Yeah. >> To look at it from other points of view. That's why looking at Chinese communist. brainwashing or pimps and traffickers is. a new lens, >> right, >> on it. Gives you an opportunity to take. a step back and say, "Oh, maybe I'm. looking at this in a in like a limited.

way, and if I just just move myself. around it, maybe I'll see a different. side." That was that's what Rodan always. wanted. The the. >> sculptor. >> the sculptor the French sculptor. What. made him so special they said was when. you would look at his his art his. sculptures. >> depending on where you looked at it from. you had a very different feeling of what. was happening. So the same the same. sculpture could look like a pained. person, a strong person, a pensive.

person. And he did that on purpose. because he wanted you to feel he he. always said from every angle I've made a. different sculpture. And so. >> that's true. >> Thinking of it. Yeah. Thinking of it. through that lens. >> That's all you have to ask yourself in. your world basically is. >> the system you're in. Does it allow you. to look at the sculpture from a. different angle? If it doesn't, you. should probably go and look at this. website, download bite, and then see. what happens. >> And the influence continuum. One last. thing. I know we're going over, but. >> no, no, no. Beware certainty.

Hey, >> beware anyone who says. 100%. this. >> because if you have a lens thinking your. beliefs are certain. >> the world is flat. >> You whatever information you're only. doing confirmation bias to confirm your. worldview. >> If you start with. >> it's like you're wearing glasses. I have. beliefs but they could be wrong and. there may be better perspectives. Then. the more you learn the more you realize.

you don't know and it makes you more. curious. >> It makes you more engaged to learn and. get other people's perspectives. So you want to be this. You don't want. to be this. >> So less Eskimo glasses, more Apple. Vision Pros. >> Not Apple Vision pros. Dude, you're the. lite. You You just. >> Oh, sorry. Yes, you clearly have never. used an Apple Vision [laughter] Pro. I. was like, Eugene, do you know what an. Apple Vision Pro? He's like, "Hey, man. I think it's the one that lets you see. out [laughter].

reality. >> Really, really appreciate you. Thank you. so much, Steve. Thank you for joining. us.". >> You have for having me on. >> Oh, no. What do you mean? You have for. joining us. Thank you so much. We had a. great time. Pleasure. Thank you. [music]. Take care. >> This was fun. Thank you. >> You're amazing. >> Thank you, my man. >> Thank you so much for watching the. episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on. to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friend still. Let. them suffer for a change. And don't. forget to engage with us in the. comments. Uh if you want to suggest a.

guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you. [music] can chat to us. We will read. through the comments and we'll get into. it. Either way, I appreciate you taking. the time. Thank you for hanging out with. [music] us on What Now. And remember, we. do this for you, so we would like to. hear from you. Till next time. Thank. you.