Dex Hunter-Torricke: Translating the Titans of Tech

The verdict is in, that landmark social. media addiction trial, Meta and YouTube. found liable for a product that harms. the very children who use it. >> Big tech, your gig is over. >> They do it by design. They're trying to. keep us all scrolling. It's bad for us, it's really bad for kids. >> I'll tell you this, if the jury had. returned a no, the champagne corks would. be popping in the boardrooms of Google. and Meta. >> And for parents, we now know that they. were manipulating our children for.

profit. Every kid with a cell phone, that with any device with a camera and. connection to the internet is in danger. >> This is What Now with Trevor Noah. How do I pronounce your name, by the. way? >> Uh Dex, and then Hunter Turek.

>> Oh, Turek. Okay. So, the E, no, it's not. a. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Okay. Where's the last name from? >> Scottish. Weirdly. >> Scottish? >> Yeah, so my my dad's side of the family. went to India in like the 19th century. They were Scottish, and they were part. of the East India Company. So, they were. like the working class Scots who made up. like a huge part of the East India. Company. And then that's how the British. Empire went and conquered places. So, I. think they were like merchants or like.

soldiers. It's like it's such a hazy bit. of history. And then there was of course. just this one like very elderly aunt, you know, in her 90s who like told me. like the family history. She was the. only person who'd like map this thing. out. Yeah. >> She was the only one who knew? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The Dutch East India Trading. Company. >> Yeah. >> What a story, man. >> Yeah. >> What a It It's funny. It's. Sometimes it feels like we're living. through new times all the time. And then you you read like a history. book or you read like, you know, an old.

story that's being told about something. and you go, "Huh, feels like. everything is the same just with the. technology of the day.". >> And a different cast of characters, yeah. >> what I mean? >> Yeah, just this revolving door of. people. >> because because when I when I think. about like a lot of the work that you're. doing now. uh and the conversations you're having, what. some of the conversations we have about. tech feel very similar to the Dutch East. India Trading Company, you know? We're. talking about. an organization that got so big they had.

the power to shift governments. >> Yeah, had its own armies. >> And yeah, it had its own armies. It it. it it changed how people lived their. lives. It started living it it sort of. was lawless, yeah. Had shareholders, yep. Right, I think it was the first. publicly traded company ever. >> Yeah. >> And because of that it just shaped the. world. in many ways that weren't necessarily. for the better. >> Yeah. And it's really funny cuz like now. when you talk about the future and the. fact that you've got this immense. concentration of power and you then try.

to figure out what could that look like. 100 years from now and. people say, "Oh, well, obviously like. this is all just dystopian nonsense. You're not going to have these mega. corporations like ruling things." It's. like, we already had that. >> literally come from there. >> Yeah. We've literally literally come. from there. But let's let's let's talk. about your story in this, you know, um. I remember the first time your your name. came up in my world I I I was reading. something about the tech industry and. I've always been fascinated by. how the tech industry has evolved, you.

know? I've met many people involved in tech, founders of some of the biggest. companies, founders of startups still. trying to get their thing going. And there's one thing I'll say, for the. for the most part, every single one of. them seemed to have, in Silicon Valley. in particular, an idealistic view of the. world. and how they to make it a better place. >> Yeah. >> You know, they were like, "I've got this. app and. you know, it's going to make. accommodation better for everybody. And.

I've got this app and it's it's going to. make getting a car easy for everybody. And I've got this app and it's going to. make restaurant deliveries easier. And. I've got this app and it's going to. improve how people connect with loved. ones. And I've got this app and it's. going to. And everyone everyone came in with this. wide-eyed optimism. But I'd love to know. how you started in this world. Like what. was your original journey? How did you. get into Silicon Valley? You know, and. then we'll get to the world of you like. knowing Mark Zuckerberg and you know, Elon Musk and all of these people. But. but let's start at the beginning. How. did you get into Silicon Valley? >> I was obsessed with.

changing the world from a very early. age. I was a very weird kid. And. part of it was just I was growing up. in the UK in the '80s and '90s and my. dad was the. you know, he was a person who was a. refugee as a kid. You know, he was 4 years old when he was. a refugee from the Second World War. He'd grown up in a refugee camp in. India. Wow. And he'd come to the UK in. the late '50s, you know, total outsider, you know, probably a few pounds in his.

pocket. Um you know, society was deeply. racist. And. you know, his life was just terrible. Like I didn't learn about it until many. years later, actually near the end of. his life, you know, um when I was 30 years old and I was. working in Silicon Valley at that point. Um my mom, she was an immigrant from. Malaysia, came to the UK in the '70s to. be a nurse in Britain's National Health. Service. And growing up, we had. absolutely nothing. There was no money. Um. you know, I grew up mostly in the.

southeast of England in this town, Tunbridge, and it was sufficiently. provincial at the time that when me and. my sister walked down the street, people. would literally stop and stare cuz. they'd never seen people who weren't. white. You know, kids would come up to. you on the playground, they'd say, "Can. I feel your hair, mate?" Um I always. remember like kids would would ask, do. you speak Chinese or Japanese? And I thought I was born in Hammersmith. I mean like. how how likely is it that I speak. Chinese or Japanese? But like that was. annoying enough for me that like from. this very early age I was like. interested in like why we even assign.

these ridiculous labels to people and we. make these assumptions and they. constrain our whole lives and like if I. had spoken Chinese or Japanese like so. what? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um and so like. I really wanted to like spend my life. trying to figure out like how do you. improve these systems that shape your. whole life from before you're even born. Why is it some kids get these amazing. lives from the beginning? Why is it that. others really are struggling the whole. time against the tide of history? And. the logical place to start there was at.

the UN. So I moved to New York in 2008. and I I got a job at the UN. I'd done. research on the UN for my masters. I got a scholarship to go to university. and you know I was I was the first in my. family to get a degree. So I got two of. them for good measure. Thought I will. just like absolutely like work really. hard now to like you know try and rise. through the system and um you know at. the UN I realized really quickly that. it's not the sort of place that actually. you can change the world most days. You're just trying to get through the. day. >> That's that's.

you're not the first person I've heard. say this and it's it's it's. it's one of the most. depressing and frustrating things to. hear people say. >> Mhm. >> is that they go work at the UN. I would. argue most of the people who go work at. the UN. are smarts, idealistic. world changing people who want to see. things become better. >> Yep. >> You know so it's everything from like. the best lawyers, the best like. accountants, the best like whatever it.

is. They they go I want to use these. talents to help help make the world a. better place. >> Mhm. >> They get to the UN and they're like ooh. this place doesn't seem to move. anything. >> Yep. >> But but but help me understand why. Like. like what what is happening at the UN or. rather what is not happening at the UN. that could be or should be happening? >> I think people don't really understand. how. poorly resourced and how weak the UN is. structurally. Like the New York City. Police Department has a budget orders of. magnitude larger than the entire UN.

globally. And like that's shocking to a lot of. people. The UN has hundreds of thousands. of peacekeeping troops in the field. worldwide. They feed millions of people. globally through their aid programs. It's an organization that's supposed to. be at the center of international law. stopping conflict. But like ultimately. the UN is just a vessel for its member. states. You know, it's for a hundred and. you know, ninety several you know, countries. These are the folks who call. the shots. And it's really a very small. number who really call the shots. It's.

the UN Security Council. >> Right, because they have veto powers and. >> power. You know, it's the UK, France, the US, Russia, China. And. I think a lot of countries, a lot of. people in the world would argue should. that be the club that gets to have a. vote, you know, in. >> Yeah, the deciding vote, not just a. vote. >> The deciding vote on all manner of. things that shape the entire world and. all of our lives and the course of. conflicts and the fate of nations. And. that's why the UN fundamentally doesn't. work. It has a structure designed not to. save the world. It was designed to stop.

us having World War III. It was designed. to freeze the international system in. 1945. That's That's literally what it. was for. People misread the original. functioning of the organization and I. misread it. And that's why after you. know, I was at the UN for only like two. two and a half years, every day was deeply frustrating cuz I. thought there's a problem. There's a. crisis. There's a disaster. Why can't we. fix these things? And the answer was. structural. It's not It's It will never. be in position to do those things. probably. >> Is that Is that because fundamentally.

you can't have a body that is ruling. over autonomous bodies? Like I mean, you. have the UN, which is a club for. countries, but countries already have their own. laws, they have their own rules, they. have their own everything. So, how do. you have a club telling other people. what to do? At some point, every country. just goes, "No.". >> I mean, throughout history, nations have. agreed to compromises, to alliances, to. international institutions that do. constrain their actions in some ways.

when they believe it's ultimately in. their national interest. So, obviously, you have things like the European Union, you have NATO, you have the oldest. international organization, the. International Postal Union. You know, literally, the rules of how you get post. delivered from one country to another. So, like, we have all these things, right? Air safety. Um. but like, the UN is something that was. crafted for a very narrow strand of. things, and over time, you know, the the. nature of the actors behind that has. shifted enormously. And of course, we're. in a moment now, right, where the United. States, which had at least the. rhetorical commitment to advancing, you.

know, political liberalization of the. world and free markets and so on, has. very clearly chosen to take a different. path, which I'm I'm sure we'll get to. you. But after after the the time I was. at the UN, I thought, "This is not going. to work, um at least not for me. I don't. feel I'm having an impact. Where can I. go?" Tech seemed the obvious place to. go, a place which has lots of resources, and technology clearly is one of those. other motors of transformation in the. world. It's something that should be. deeply hopeful and about fixing a bunch. of these problems. >> So, what did you what did you study in. university? What are the two degrees?

>> I did politics, um and then for my. masters, I went and did Russian studies. So, I actually. >> Russian studies? >> focused on Russia's foreign policy in. the world, which was already deeply uh. destabilizing. >> why of everything you could have. studied, why that? >> I was living in Europe. Uh I went to do. my undergrad um 2003, and this was just. before the European Union and NATO had. expanded to the east, and Russia was. about to become the bordering state. And. I immediately had questions about that. You know, I was a teenager, I thought, "We've got the world's largest country.

with a very patchy track record on human. rights and rule of law and democracy and. it's about to become our next door. neighbor and. surely we need to prepare to understand. how to deal with that new strategic. challenge and it was interesting cuz. this was pre Putin you know starting to. you know march into other countries you. know 2008 when I arrived at the UN was. He was He was in power by this time. though right? Oh yeah he took power in. 2000. >> Yeah right. >> And you know. he was still seen as an ally of the West.

you know he would get invited to all. these you know summits with you know. Blair and Bush and so on. >> Oh wow you forget that there was a time. >> Yeah and a lot of the students who are. on my program at Oxford these were kids. who were apologists for Putin. It was. the wildest thing. >> What do you mean What do you mean in. what way? >> You'd literally get into debates with. them and they'd say oh he's making. Russia strong again and he's a you know. he's a great ally of the West and you. know anyone who like questions that. entire thesis is just anti-Russian and. it was like I love Russian literature. I. you know if you want me to you know talk. about Russian literature and food and.

all of that we can do that but like. that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the the fate of. nations and of course uh you know we got. to a moment when suddenly um people. realized that all the things that we had. sort of swept under the rug in the name. of just having a nice cozy alliance. having flat Putin at the table in the. club all these things were were actually. meaningless. There were different set of. interests at work. >> So. here's something I've I've always. wondered about Russia is like. is is Russia.

acting or are they reacting? Yeah what what I mean by this is. you know when you when you look at the. Cold War which you studied I mean. clearly it like like all of this. there are parts of the Cold War where I. go huh. It feels like Russia is reacting to what. America is doing. It feels like Russia. is reacting to its perceived like. threats or it's worried about like bombs. or not having you know. and there's there's there's moments. where like Russia is like bluffing. throughout history which I would I find.

like if it wasn't on a on a geopolitical. scale, it would be great comedy. Cuz. Russia is constantly bluffing. We've. also got a bomb. Oh, we've got a bomb. just as big as yours. We've got a. military just as good as yours. We got. And there's all these moments where. they're bluffing bluffing bluffing. bluffing bluffing. You you you you you you find these. moments where it comes to a head. and then it simmers down. And then from. the inside Russia Russians seem to go. like, yeah, when you look at it in. hindsight they go, we actually wanted. any of that. We never wanted the fight. You know, Gorbachev being like, I didn't. want that [ __ ] Come on, man.

As somebody who's studied it and you. know, you've been at the UN and all of. that is. how do you how do you perceive Russia's. reaction to the world? You know, like. some people would go. well, Russia was always going to react. to NATO being in its backyard the same. way America would react to a another. country's force being in its backyard. How How do you how do you process that. having studied it actually? >> I mean, I think it it's possible that a. nation as complex as Russia is both. being reactive.

and proactive both at the same time and. has a very divergent range of interests. that might explain, you know, all the. things it's done over the last couple of. decades, right? I mean, there are. fascinating historical debates now about. were there moments in the lead up to the. end of the Cold War and right after. where you could have dramatically. shifted, you know, the path that Russia. eventually took and you know, there were. moments where you know, even after. Vladimir Putin came to power he at least. rhetorically. you know, explored you know, very.

different scenarios what a different. security architecture could look like. for Europe. People back in the early. 2000s literally had discussions about. could Russia join NATO? Right. You know, which was something that you know, Vladimir Putin literally you know, he. held events where he would talk about. that as potentially a long-range goal. for Russia. But you know, it's one of. those things where you know, scholars. will debate this stuff. You know, actually at the at the dawn of the Cold. War, there were proposals from the. United States to put all the nuclear. weapons in the world under the control. of the UN. And it turned out that wasn't.

really a sincere thing. That was in fact. them trying to call Russia's bluff cuz. they knew Russia actually would never. agree to it. They would just want to. have their own arsenal. And so it was. just a way to get the US to have some. nice PR. But you know, it's something where I. think this speaks to kind of the moment. we're in, right? This actually is very. relevant to some of the stuff I'm. working on. Um. there was no vision really for what a. post-Cold War international order that. really was inclusive, that would. represent the world's people, that would. stop nations simply descending into.

grievances and, you know, end up butting. up against just Western hegemonic power. There was no plan whatsoever. And we're. sort of still in that moment. There's a. bunch of leaders now who really regret. the state of the world, but they have no. vision for what a real future could look. like. In many ways, they just want to go. back to some idealized moment of the. past. Yeah, it's the '90s. It's 2007. before the economic crisis. It's 2015. before Trump. We're never going back to. any of those moments. That is not the way to actually save,

you know, societies. That is not the way. to ultimately stop any of these. problems. And so, that is something that. is deeply cyclical, a bunch of elites. constantly being off balance. >> Yeah, we we had. Mia Mottley, the Prime Minister of. Barbados, on on on the podcast and. it was interesting because. she really helped frame how the world. and the UN are are. are working. through a unique lens. And it was that. larger countries and more powerful.

nations. have often dealt with, you know, a. one-way. sort of street. It was like, we say and we do, and then. that's it. We we we don't look for. feedback. We don't seek a response. But now the world has changed. You know, whether it's because of globalization, whether it's because of trade, whether. it's because of migration and. immigration, smaller countries affect the bigger. countries. >> Mhm. >> You know, it's it's it's going to be. climate change, it's going to be famine, it's going to be people are going to.

move around the world. The people who can't move are going to. end up finding themselves in some of the. worst places where then the worst things. happen. You know, you look at ISIS, etc., what's happening in Libya and. stuff like that. And that affects the quote-unquote. Western world. And you you you can't. have it as a one-way street anymore. You. can't just tell small nations what to do. or who to be. >> Yep. >> You have to be in a dialogue with them, and I don't think the bigger countries. are used to that. >> Uh they're not. And uh you know, the. West was top of its game for a long. time, economically, militarily, very.

stable societies. It got to dictate. terms to the world. You know what I. mean? And so many of the things that are. unfolding now, where our economic might. and our institutions are in decay, and. our place in the world is being. questioned. Mhm. These are things now. where a lot of leaders, a lot of publics. who have grown up in that world where. the West was at the top of its game, they think, "Oh, it's all a lot of alarmism to believe. that things could really dramatically. deteriorate. Fundamentally, this is all.

just a bit of turbulence, and then. things will go back to normal." And they. don't seem to realize that the vast. majority of people in the world have. lived through everything that's. unfolding now and much, much worse. When. people talk about doom or the breakdown. of societies, that's happened to so many people. It's. happened in our lives in just the last. few years, which is why, you know, there's now tens of millions of refugees. in the world. >> Yeah. It's it's it's one of those. situations where. it feels like for the first time in. history, or rather in for the first time.

in first time in modern history, the. major countries. are experiencing what all the smaller. countries have always been experiencing. You know what I mean? So so so you. you have this UN epiphany, you realize. that. nothing seems to be moving in the way. that it could be moving or at least how. you thought it would be moving. And then you decide to go into tech. But. this is. This is This is when around 2005, 6 somewhere there where. >> Probably 2010. >> 2010 or Okay, so it's much further on.

All right, so 2010. You still very early for a lot of those. guys. >> Yeah, yeah, tech wasn't what it is now. Like it was a burgeoning world of like. maybe-ness. The dot-com boom still had like the. effects where people were like, "Ah, I. don't know. The bubble could burst." You. know, so it it. it was almost like punk in a way tech at. that time. >> That's right. I mean, it's it's kind of. wild to think back to that moment now. because of course we only think about. those Silicon Valley companies as big. tech. That wasn't even a label. And it. was sufficiently quaint that, you know,

there was a film being made at Google. the first time I went to Google in my. career. So I started at the beginning of. 2011 and. my buddy Jim who sat next to me, he was. the PR guy assigned to manage this film. which Vince Vaughn and Owen Wilson were. making set at Google, The Internship or. like The Intern. And it was actually like it was like a. rom-com set at Google yes. Because you. could pull off that kind of warm fuzzy. stick and people would go and see it cuz. it was like, "Oh, Google. It's this warm. fuzzy company where everyone sits on. colored balls and invents the future.". >> Yeah, and they have the food and. everyone chills and there's no real.

offices and it's just the Yeah. >> Totally. And like Steve Jobs was, you. know, still alive. You know, the iPhone. had just been, you know, announced 2007. So it was like very recent, you know, Facebook wasn't even a public company. yet. You know, and after after I was working. at Google the first time I was working. for Eric Schmidt who was the executive. chair chairman then. I then went to work. for Zuckerberg. You know, I went over to. Facebook right before the IPO and it was. a tiny tiny company. It was less than. 2,000 employees. You know, it was only a few years past. the point where everyone was just. hurriedly adding all your friends, you.

know, as soon as you know, Facebook. >> Yeah. >> extended to your college. And yeah, it. at the time it was just sort of we're. we're making it up as we go, but it. still feels like the early years of the. internet when, you know, every day was a. new discovery and things were deeply. hopeful in a lot of ways. You felt like. you were part of inventing this amazing. future. Connecting people and look, all. the mission statements, they sound. brilliant, don't they? You're connecting. the world. >> You are. >> Isn't that a brilliant thing? That's. what we all want. Yeah. >> But then it turns out the world's really. complex and a whole bunch of things that.

you're not expecting will happen when. you connect the world. >> We'll be right back after the short. break. >> You know what I love about spring? Everything just feels fresh again. The weather shifts, people start going. outside more, and suddenly you feel like. you should be eating something that. didn't come out of a packet. That's why I like going to Whole Foods. Market this time of year. Whole Foods. Market is your go-to destination to. celebrate the fresh flavors of spring.

with seasonal produce at its juiciest, plus limited-time flavors throughout the. store. This is the time to get together and. share vibrant finds with your loved. ones. And you feel it as soon as you. walk in. You've got organic bagged salad. kits, fresh produce, potatoes, parsnips, radishes, spring onions, artichokes, all. the things that make you feel like. you've got your life together. And then of course, you go in for that.

and you leave with things you didn't. plan for, like a peach apricot rosé. Italian soda or those 365 by Whole Foods. Market strawberry pretzels that somehow. disappear before you even get home. And. if you're hosting or even just showing. up somewhere trying to impress people, the bakery has you covered. The mango. yuzu Chantilly cake, the strawberry. shortcake, these are the kind of. desserts where people don't ask. questions, they just assume that you. know what you're doing. And the nice thing is, there are deals. throughout the store, especially on 365. brand items, so you can feel responsible.

while still treating yourself a little. Because that's really what spring is. about, starting fresh and then rewarding. yourself immediately. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring and. save at Whole Foods Market. So so when did it when did it flip for. you? I I It's funny I was actually. reading a book um. maybe you even know the person I'm going.

to be so bad with this. Is it called like Careless People or is. it Do you do you know it? >> I do know that one. >> Yes, yeah. And it's it's it's written by a woman. who used to work at Facebook. >> I worked with her. Yeah. >> Oh, you worked with her? Okay. Oh, this. is fascinating. I'm in the book. Oh, that's wild. Yeah. Oh, this is even This. is crazy for me. Wow. Okay. So. I was reading this book and the reason I. started reading it was just because I. was like, all right, I'm I'm I'm. interested in tech. I'll read a whole. bunch of things about what's going on. there, autobiographies, etc. But then I read this book and I It was.

really interesting to see an account. of. Facebook's. evolution. >> Mhm. >> You know, like we we we like to deal in. absolutes in society. So we go Facebook, you know, people will be like it's. absolutely bad. >> Mhm. >> Or no, it's absolutely good. And then. it's like when you read this book, you. realize there was a time when Mark. Zuckerberg didn't see himself as. anything other than a guy who was. running a tech company that was trying. to connect as many people as possible in. the world. And the people who worked. around him were like, we're just trying.

to connect the world. And every time the. word politics was brought up they were. like, no no no no no no no. We don't want to meet with presidents. We don't want to know presidents. We. just make tech that connects people all. over the world. I didn't know that you. were there for like that I This is crazy. that I'm reading the book that you were. basically a part of. So. help help me understand. what went wrong. >> A bunch of those technologies are things. that did exactly what they were designed.

to do. The world did get connected. There's. billions of people using all those. products. Um. there was a very, very simplistic. narrative and understanding of what. would unfold. as. the world got connected, as all those. technologies rolled out. And. a bunch of the good things, fantastic. Um tech can change the world. But. there's another part of what happens, the world changes tech. It doesn't just. show up in this vacuum.

We never tell that story. And of course, a. deeply complex world with. technologies that change the way. billions of people live and work, every. industry, every government, the nature. of our relationship with each other, with our communities, that's something. which it turned out. very few people had any. real understanding of what the full. scale of those challenges would be, how. interconnected they would be. Yeah. And. I think there's been a widespread.

systemic failure of leadership across. societies. The tech industry absolutely, you know, has a lot of that. responsibility. They built these things. They're things which they had the. closest understanding of as they. emerged. But the feeling is absolutely. not exclusive. We also had a. absolutely historic, you know, collapse. in leadership from political leaders, from a bunch of other people who have. immense power on the trajectory of those. technologies and how our society should. respond. If tech hadn't had all the.

effects it's had in the world, if you. didn't have social media and smartphones. and AI and so on, >> Yeah. >> I think it's probably quite likely that. we'd still be facing huge crises at this. point. You know, a bunch of these things. are unfolding. You know, and of course, you know, AI is a thing which I'm very. focused on and is a big part of this, but part of the reason. what I'm doing now is in fact not just. about tech, really, is if AI vanished. tomorrow, we would still have. Gargantua and problems. We would still. be in really bad shape. It is the. combination of the tech with a deeply.

broken world that adds up to the state. of dysfunction we're in now. >> Yeah, in many ways I I I like to think. of it the same way I think of like a. nuclear weapon. Humans will always fight. But a nuclear bomb means the effects of. that fight are going to be so much. greater than they would have been. otherwise, right? I think the same goes. for AI. I think the same goes for social. media. People who work in these industries will. often say, "We aren't the cause of this. People will always find a way to blah. blah blah." And I'm like, "Yes, yes, I I. agree with that. You're not wrong.".

However, the tool that you've provided. the people with. has given them an outsized ability to. inflict damage or harm on society. And. so, I want to go back to like you you your. early days. So, when you when you first. got into the tech industry, you know, like let let's use Facebook cuz you know. Facebook is is really like at the center. of many of these conversations right. now. So, what were you what were you. doing at Facebook? >> Uh I was a speech writer. So, I was the. company's first speech writer. The. company was just about to go public. It. needs to communicate a lot more. And,

you know, folks like Zuckerberg, a lot. of the other senior leaders, um you know, they had to talk to. everyone from Wall Street to publics, media. Um you were constantly doing events and. engaging with other leaders. Um. moving the entire company, you know, this is an organization that grew. enormously in the time I was there from. a couple of thousand people to tens of. thousands in just the space of a few. years. And all along, you know, I was. there to help figure out how do you.

manage the telling of that story at. scale? >> Oh, wow. >> And that's something which of course, you know, in order to tell that story. well, you have to be able to get under. the hood of any number of these deeply. consequential issues, all the things. that are, you know, really. controversial, the things that are. really significant. You have to um. deeply understand the executives and. those voices as well. Um you know, I was. a speechwriter for a lot of my early. career and people often think the voice. of people is about the combination of. words and that's the easy part. The. words are an expression of ideas. And. that's really what made the job so.

fascinating. It was all about trying to. figure out what are those ideas that can. galvanize and move. you know, massive, you know, populations. and audiences and all these communities. on a set of technologies doing something. completely new in history. And it was it. was a very, very. um you know, intellectually, you know, hard and extremely fulfilling perch in. which to see history being made. It was. also something where once you get under. the hood you realize, "Wow, there isn't.

actually a deeper level of thinking. quite a lot of the time." And I think. that's something that came came out in. in the book you read. There were. actually there were lots of things I. disagree with in that book. There were. lots of details which I think were like, you know, absolutely not in fact how. things went down. Oh, okay. >> That's good to know. >> That's also part of history, you know, people will have very different. perspectives on. all those things. >> So, let's let's start with the good days. then. You you join this company. It is. changing the world. It is this. burgeoning idea. What what were the messages that you. were trying to get to the public or what.

were the messages you were trying to. help Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg get to. the public about itself at that time. that you thought were noble? >> The power of connectivity to change. lives and move societies forward. That is absolutely true. It's still. true. Um. people can absolutely detest, you know, any number of these companies. Most of. us still carry a smartphone. Most of us. have social media. Um these are things which have become. really valuable in our lives. And.

those are all real real things. Um. they're things which um you know, can. mean a huge difference in the quality of. life for communities and um families. and, you know, all sorts of people. You. know, in fact, my own journey, you know, going from from where I started to. you know, being able to do all the. things I'm, you know, doing, you know, in my life, um, in fact, I think. technology was a big part of that, you. know, I remember I was at home, my. parents were of no help guiding me in my. career, obviously, like when I was a. teenager and I was trying to figure out. like, how do I apply to university? It's. like my parents didn't go to university,

so it was literally me staying up late, you know, typing away on my dad's old. computer, literally flinging out queries. into the early internet, trying to. figure out like, what would you need to. do to do all these things? Like, what is. an internship? You know, stuff like. that. Where where would you where would. you find that information those days? What was I going to go to the library. and ask the librarian? Like, so. that's the value, right? And there were. things when I was at the company which. really would fill you with pride. I. remember going, you know, to rural India with. Zuckerberg. I traveled on the trip, it's.

in in the book, I think. And. you would meet people whose lives have. been completely changed by having access. to the internet. I remember there was a. we were at this village in the middle of. nowhere in India and it had just got. access to like an internet cafe and this. old man had come into the cafe to get. help from one of the like kids who like. had learned to use the internet cuz he. wanted to track down his friend who. hadn't seen in like years and he was. like, can you help me like research. thing cuz he was my best friend and I. haven't seen him in like 20 years and.

like he's somewhere out there and I. don't know where he is and like this kid. found him in like 5 minutes. And this. guy started crying. And it was like. that is I mean, that is the sort of. >> the magical side of it. >> deeply tangible impact, right? But this. is the thing, this is the tremendous. duality of the moment that you can have. things like that which are real and you. can acknowledge those things, but like. there's all sorts of other things. happening, too. >> So, what what was what was the first. thing. that sort of triggered your your your. spidey sense? What what was the first. thing that made you question the noble.

mission you were on? >> It was the refugee crisis. >> Um, which one? >> Yeah, which one? So, 2015. when. you know, the war in Syria was. >> Okay, yes. So, the Syrian migration. moving people Yeah, fleeing into Europe, going through Germany, etc. >> suddenly had this like rapid. acceleration in the number of people. being displaced. You had tens of. millions of people on the move. So, at. the time there were about 65 million. refugees in the world. And um it was the. greatest number in history. Um biggest.

humanitarian disaster of all time. And. my dad was really sick that year. So, he. had lung cancer. It was the last year of. his life. Um we knew that he only had a. few months left. He had started smoking. when he was about 12 years old as a. child refugee. You know, that's that's. that was the really deeply unhealthy. life he had, you know, living in the. refugee camp. And anyway, it finally. caught up with him. He was in his late. 70s. So, um you know, I had really come. to understand his story in that last. year of his life cuz he never talked. about it. And I had a really bad.

relationship with my dad, you know, he. had you know, had this terrible. childhood. He was like very abusive. He. was psychologically very scarred from. from his childhood. >> yeah. >> Yeah, and so I made I made peace with. him in the last year of his life. And. so, I was already like bubbling with a. bunch of. feelings. And then it was September 2015. and this photo went all over the world. And you probably would recognize it if. you saw it. It was this photo of this. 3-year-old boy, Alan Kurdi, who was a Syrian refugee.

>> I think so. Is it the one If I'm not. mistaken, is it the back of the. ambulance maybe? Or is it like. >> That was a different one. >> Oh, that's a different one. Okay. >> the little boy who drowned on the shores. of the island. >> no, no, no. Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah. And And there's a there's a famous. photo of the body on the shores of this. island. It looks like he's sleeping. And. you know, he drowned along with his. 5-year-old brother and his mother trying. to cross the Mediterranean to get away. And I remember that moment because all. the world leaders were so shocked. because publics were so outraged and.

people were so upset. I remember, you. know, you had prime ministers going on. TV saying, "Right, that's it. We're. going to We're going to stop this thing. now. We're going to intervene. This is. where we draw the line.". Of course, 10 years later, there's now 135 million. refugees in the world, which is more. than two World Wars combined. It hasn't gotten any better. It's. getting worse by the day. But at that. time, that was the first moment where I. thought, "Look at the gulf. between the ambitions of the world's. richest people with all their vast. technology, you know, saying that.

humanity up. And there is humanity right. there, the biggest humanitarian. catastrophe of our time. And you can. say, well, why should it be up to the CEO of one of. these tech companies to go and and solve. that problem? Well, maybe it shouldn't be. Maybe they have. some part to play in it. But that's. that's not the point. The point is, if. you have a thesis that your technology. is now going to be the thing which. automatically leads us to this better. future, and the future is playing out. right there, and you are not doing.

anything to even investigate how you. might shape that, then your thesis. starts to ring a little hollow. I. remember sitting at my desk in Facebook. in this palatial headquarters, you know, on the edge of the Pacific Ocean, just. thinking, "God, I'm like I'm at the edge. of the world in like air-conditioned. luxury." And that is the animating. reality of people all over the world, and people who are just like my dad when. he was a kid. That's my dad's story. playing out right there. Anyway, he My. dad passed away, you know, just a little. bit more than a month after that photo. came out. And.

you know, I went back to England, and. you know, I had a you know, a bunch of. time you know, to to think over the next. few weeks, and I I decided that's it. I. I've got to find a different path. through this industry. And. I was so I mean, that really was. something which started, you know, a. bunch of these gears spinning. I still. was in tech for a bunch more time, and. it was something that. I began to take more and more of a. position that I had to be involved. directly in shaping the causes and the. movements and the issues that were. playing out in very different parts of. the world. >> So, I I understand that on a on an.

altruistic level, you know, as it pertains to the world, but. I'm trying to understand where your. disillusionment began with regards to. Facebook and then we'll and then we'll. move into like the broader tech world. itself because I'm hearing I'm hearing. what you're saying. You know, you you were taken aback by a. story that was affecting the world and. on on your on your side it was affecting. you personally as well because it. you know, it had echoes of a past that. had shaped you in many ways. But I but I don't understand how.

this then casts Facebook in a bad light. You know, this is just a social media. company. What is it that Facebook did? What is it. that Mark Zuckerberg said or did that. made you go Facebook is part of the. actual problem that we're not not the. cause of everything in the world, but. Facebook is contributing to these. problems. >> Facebook has become a central. piece of the machinery for how you. convince the world of things. It's the. battleground of ideas played out across.

Instagram and WhatsApp and Facebook. Connects billions of people. It. connected the world. And all. of the central problems of our time are. playing out in those communities. And so. Facebook absolutely has a role in how it. prioritizes and it thinks about the. architectures that might dramatically. shape and shift how the entire world. acts on any number of problems. And of. course, the company absolutely would. point to all the things that. it thought might be positive stories for.

the company in how it it did those. things. You know, you'd look at here's. all the money that's raised on charity. on Facebook. True thing. Um very very. powerful for lots of organizations to. raise money on Facebook. But at the same. time there'd be other things where, you. know, the company would have a sort of. we've got enough on our plate. You know, that's that's not really a thing for us. right now. And so actually I'm not. saying that. suddenly Zuckerberg had to make the. refugee crisis his number one thing. I. absolutely think if you have a thesis. about you're connecting the world and. you're building this motor of society. and you happen to be one of the world's. richest people, you probably should make.

it a part of your responsibility. But there's any number of other issues. which absolutely are. things that were the company dropped the. ball on. Why is it our societies are so deeply. divided and angry now in a world awash. with disinformation and hate? That is. something which absolutely wasn't in the. company's power and it touched the lives. of refugees and non-refugees alike. It. shapes all of our lives. It shapes the. entire digital ecosystem and the company. did not meet its obligations there. >> When I when I read.

you know when I read this book and when. I've read different accounts of people. who've worked in. Facebook and then to a lesser degree. Twitter. at the time. they'll talk about how. they got frustrated. at seeing which scales the company would. put its thumb on. >> Mhm. >> Right? Tech companies generally will tell us. the general public that they are not. shaping anything. >> Right. >> They will say we're a platform. We're a.

message board. It's part of the reason. they don't. have the same obligations that a TV. station does. So you know if if somebody. tells a lie or an egregious lie on CBS. or NBC or one of those. >> Mhm. >> they get held accountable. >> Right. >> Facebook, Twitter, all of them go like. no no no no no. We. >> say nothing. >> Mhm. >> All we do is provide a message board and. the people say things but we. do not participate in what is being said. or not being said.

>> All right? When you read accounts from people. who've worked in these organizations, it. seems like that couldn't be further from. the truth. >> Yeah, that's absurd. Like look at how. much the algorithm on X shifted once. Twitter became X under Elon, right? You'd like spend 5 seconds on there. It's just a complete cesspool of the. absolute worst people who've been. algorithmically boosted now to dominate. your feeds. So, like absolutely there. are choices made every day in the. architecture of these platforms and like. the content they're surfacing. Like, you. know, one of the things that, you know,

occurred, you know, during the first. Trump administration onwards was um you. know, Facebook started experimenting. with reducing the volume of news and. political content in some feeds uh. because they discovered that people were. getting to the point where they were so. like exhausted from the output of. political content that they said, "Oh, you know what? This is bad for. engagement. Let's just get rid of the. news." And. that's the thing where hey, maybe that. actually gave people some better, you. know, experience in there. Like, maybe. they spent more time. That would be how.

Facebook would define a better. experience. But like in fact. if your society's in flames. wouldn't it be like more responsible to. actually share these things? Like, if. you had a thesis that this is the, you. know, global town square. That was. literally how you know, Jack Dorsey used. to describe Twitter. >> And the global town square has to have. all the conversations that matter in it, right? Not just the ones that, you know, give you the easier life when you're. living, you know, in Palo Alto or San. Francisco. >> Yeah, it's it's it's. it's fascinating because you you realize.

that these guys have built a world where. how. it would be so much easier. if they were just trying to be evil. >> Mhm. >> But it seems like. their evil is a byproduct of the apathy. or rather the appetite that they have. for just getting their thing to grow as. much as possible. >> That's right. I think that's spot on. And that that is the complexity of this. entire situation, right? If they were.

just cartoonishly villainous. >> Yes. >> you know, like Zuckerberg was like, "Right, I'm going to like get these. people's data." And it's like it was. never like that. In a way it's like, you. know, the data's, you know, to fuel what. Facebook really is, which is a big ad, you know, machine. Uh Um you know, his. ultimate evil is to give you some crappy. click-baity ads in your feed. I mean, it's not it's not the most, you know, you know, wild scheme ever invented. But. like. the failure to engage with a whole bunch. of other things which are within his. power and which are playing out on the. platforms, that can end up exerting.

tremendous evil in the world. So, it's. something where there's a there's a. again this great duality about these. things, right? And you can be an. engineer working at Facebook and every. day you go in there and you work on. things that are really really boring, designed to sort of incrementally. improve user experience, and they do. improve user experience, and yet you are. also part of an institution that might. also be doing things which in some other. part of this vast global machine. actually aren't effects you like at all. And you still need people to go and do. the good things as well, right? Um you. know, all institutions are imperfect and.

there's lots of good people I think who. work within tech companies because they. they are driven by nothing more than. they want to build systems that really. do solve problems for people. >> Do you think Do you think we got it all. wrong in terms of like assigning. a political point of view to tech. leaders? I think of all of them, Jeff Bezos, um. like when he bought the Washington Post, people were like, "Oh man, democracy has. been saved." And they came up with that. slogan, "Democracy Dies in Darkness.". And it was this whole thing, and it's. like, "Oh, this is what we need mega.

titans to do is save the journalistic. world that we. Mark Zuckerberg, people like, "Oh yes, he is a titan of free speech, and. because of him we will move this thing. you you look at all of these these. figures, even Elon Musk, they're like, "You know, electric cars, and here he is. pioneering a world that gets us away. from fossil fuels." And. it seemed like they were liberal. bastions. It seemed like they were. progressive icons that were trying to. move society. to a place that was better for everyone.

And then almost overnight, it was like, well, Jeff Bezos is like, nope, nope, shut that down, move that thing, pay the people less, get this go I'm I'm. doing my own thing. Zuckerberg was like, actually, screw the news and and we're. not fact-checking anything and we're not. doing that and and you know what? I I'm. actually pro this. I actually think. Trump's a cool guy and I'm at the. inauguration and you see this happening. and Elon Musk is like. you're like, oh, so he likes electric. cars, but not necessarily. he doesn't care about the whole thing. It's it's it's it's this weird like.

it's this weird gray that I think people. struggle with. >> Yes. >> From the inside. did you see a shift or do you think that. there was just a big misunderstanding of. who these people were from the very. beginning? >> I think it was both. Um. people are desperate for heroes and. you know, I moved to New York in 2008, you know, right on the eve of you know, the economic crisis unfolding and. how many more crises have we been. through since then? It's like the 21st.

century has been a never-ending series. of disasters befalling most of the world. and in that context people will always. look for heroes. Um we're looking for good guys and bad. guys. We're looking for a simplistic. narrative to make sense of deeply. complex events. Who were the good guys. in the economic crisis? >> Yeah. >> Um you know, there were lots of. different bad guys. There were lots of. different shades of gray every single. day. But the real villains weren't even. just these individuals, you know, we. would sort of say, ah, that person's. going to prison, right? Screw that. person. There's entire systems that are. rotten. And of course, this is the.

nature of many of the problems that are. playing out now. We have deeply rotten, you know, systems that um you know, are. behind many of the problems that are you. know, unfolding in many many different. domains. Um so, I think that was part of it, but. also it was genuinely. um you know, it was a whole bunch of very new. challenges emerging in the world. Which in ways. these were leaders who simply weren't. engaged at all. Um there were things. where. um they might have had more constructive. roles. They almost certainly would have. had more constructive roles if they took. those seriously. But there's lots of.

other leaders who should share that. blame, too. Um. the failure of technology in our society. is is only part of a general failure of. societies in the last couple of decades, which political leaders, a whole set of. other, you know, thinkers and actors, they absolutely should share in that. blame, too. >> It's weird because it's it's like we're. trying to figure out where the first. domino fell, right? Some would argue. there's a moment when Facebook said, "We're going to allow political people.

on Facebook. We're going to allow them. to run campaigns. We're going to allow. them to buy ads. We're going to" Some. would say, "Oh, that was it. That was. the domino." Other people would say, "No, it's when the lawmakers allowed. Facebook to have the thing that it. would" So, where do you think the first. domino Like, were there conversations. within the company in and around. politics and Facebook when this was. still, you know, sort of burgeoning? >> Oh, yeah. I mean, these conversations. are, you know, happening over many, many. years, you know. These were things that, you know, predated me. You know, companies were already really agonizing.

over these things, you know, as as. social media was, you know, getting. started and reaching, you know, big. scale. And a lot of the thinking, right, was again driven by things that were. very idealistic. Can you build a global. town square. >> Yeah. >> in which, of course, you want democratic. discourse. You want politicians on. there, and you want people exposed to. their views. And these are things where, you know, political content would. naturally appear cuz, you know, if you. want to build something for free. expression, then people will talk about, you know, something that is one of the. central things in our in our lives and. our societies. You know, that early. idealistic moment in that journey of.

tech, you know, for me was the Arab. Spring. You know, I remember walking. into the hall at Google when news came. through that the Egyptian government had. fallen, and people started cheering. You. know, it was literally like, you know, there is something in the world. happening, you know, fueled, you know, combined with the power of technology, you know, people power plus these, you. know, instruments for like mass. communication and and collaboration. suddenly like exerting, you know, dramatic shifts in societies. Um. but it's it's very hard, I think, to. think of like that's the domino that,

you know, played the central role when. really there were so many, you know, interconnected systems that really were. were breaking at the same time. The. failures of leadership were happening on. any number of fronts, right? You know, disinformation on Facebook, right? You've got the failures of platforms to. think through how algorithms would, you. know, shape content and shape, you know, communities. But at the same time, you. had a global order breaking down in. which nations like Russia, Iran, China, the US, a whole bunch of people were all.

employing cyber weapons and looking to. drive influence operations through. social media and to weaponize all of. those new platforms in order to achieve. their geopolitical interests. That's a. reality, too. And so, you can't just, uh, you know, look at one of these. problems. You got to actually have a a. thesis on how all these things play out. together. >> Don't go anywhere cuz we got more What. Now after this.

You said that you. you really had this moment for yourself. in 2000 and. >> That was 2015 when I started having. >> 2015 is when you when you start feeling. this. You then leave in 20. >> I left Facebook in 2016, but I was still. in the tech industry. >> So you so you stayed around for a while. >> with Elon then. When I was at SpaceX. And so, I went to the space industry, which is something that should be deeply. hopeful. I mean, I grew up watching Star.

Trek. Um you know, >> And many elements of it of it have been. Like I I I often say this like with with. my friends all the time. I go, "Look, man, I'm not a fan of like half of the [ __ ]. Elon says and like his views on many. things, but I'm like, you know, Starlink. and the idea is pretty amazing. You. know, we live in a world where many. people are not connected to the internet. and we've seen what that can do to their. financial outcomes or, way, you know, there's a young Deck somewhere who's. trying to find another internship. You can't do it. But if you have an internet that doesn't. need last mile, it changes your your life. So, it's.

fascinating. Electric cars, I don't. think the industry would have moved if. it weren't for Tesla. You know, so there's there's many. elements where it is deeply hopeful. But you seem to have gone from one place. to another. And am I correct in saying that you are. disillusioned by the entire tech. industry now? >> No. Tech This is the duality of the moment. Yeah. It continues to this moment. I absolutely believe in the power of. technology. No No one's ever accusing me. of being anti-tech. >> Okay. >> Like technology is something that can be.

and should be deeply hopeful if it's. managed well. Is it being managed well. by our societies? No. Are. tech industry leaders meeting the moment. and the nature of the disruption that is. now unfolding as a result of AI and a. bunch of these breakthrough. technologies? Absolutely not. And so, that's why I'm no longer in the. industry. Uh I don't think that's the. right perch to be for somebody who wants. to focus their time on figuring out how. as societies do we get out of the mess.

that is the consequence, the backdrop of a technologically. infused civilization in the year 2026. Um but the technology itself could do. wonderful things, right? That is the. complex everyday duality which infects. every part of how we think about these. technologies, which is why, you know, lots of leaders, lots of institutions, lots of regulators, they really struggle. with this stuff. AI might help us cure. all diseases this century. That is. something which lots of scientists are. very hopeful about. We're going to see. the first drugs coming to market in the.

next few years which have been developed. with the help of AI which can treat. cancers and all sorts of things. That's. real. But at the same time, you also have AI. driving disinformation and hate and. cyber weapons and all these things, fueling autonomous weaponry and AI. military targeting systems right now in. action today in the Middle East which. are inflicting enormous damage on. people's lives. You have an industry. with a rapacious appetite for resources. which is absolutely going to be part of. accelerating climate change and the. devastation of ecosystems at a time when.

we're heading for some of the worst case. climate change scenarios and you have. this soaring gulf. in. societies between the winners and losers. in our economy. You know, 12. billionaires in this country have as. much wealth as 49% of the world now and. that's before we've seen most of the. effects of AI on economies. If anyone. think think that's that's going to get. better, they have got a bridge to the. future to sell them. >> Right before you left Facebook, did you voice your concerns and try and.

like shift the company? >> Uh as a cog in a machine, I did all the. bits that I felt were within my ability. to go and do these things. Uh. every single day. Um what could I do? I. was a guy who was a words guy. And so my. my ability to argue over the message and. how you frame these things and what are. the things we should really be talking. about? That's something which I. absolutely exercise that power every. single day and that's that's what drove. my whole career. >> Did you experience any wins?

>> Yeah, I mean you would get lots of sort. of little wins. >> Yeah. Do you remember any? >> Yeah, I mean like even like how. choosing to even like, you know, focus. on you know, topics which people would. say, "Oh, really? Like why is like some. tech executive like posting about you. know, uh let's say international development.". >> Okay. >> I took Zuckerberg to the UN in 2015. Um you know, like that's the thing where. you know, for me as a former UN person,

it felt really important actually that. you bring Silicon Valley, you know, people building these platforms with. this immense reach together with a set. of people who are deeply. non-technological but need to achieve. really hard things in the world. So for. me, you know, a lot of the work I did. was on advancing this idea that. connectivity should be a human right. It. should be something that people have. access to and they have the ability to. express themselves freely. Um. I consider that that a very, very small. win. Um lots of other things I would I would. lose arguments all the time. One of the. things that I, you know, was part of my.

sort of final chapter when I was, you. know, at Facebook was um Trump was now. running. >> Yeah. >> And I absolutely did not believe that. Trump should be given a. um you know, an unfiltered megaphone to. spew all sorts of hatred. And I had. furious arguments with, you know, very. senior people, you know, saying. you are the boss of Facebook. You have a. megaphone, if nothing else, you get to. say that that's not acceptable. And they. wouldn't even do the bare minimum there. You know, they sort of, you know, I. remember I had a huge argument with some. folks there about, you know, a post.

which I had drafted for Zuckerberg to. take on Trump directly and call out his. [ __ ]. >> Oh, interesting. >> And, you know, it's been reported that. you know, it's been covered in some. other media over the years uh in the. Washington Post, I think. But, you know, that was a thing where I lost. that argument. You know, the company was. absolutely, you know, you know, cowering. with the idea that this is something. that, you know, they should have any. sort of direct view on. And so, the it. ended up with one of those messy, unsatisfying compromises where like a. post was put out and all the sort of. sharp bits of language were, you know, watered down and it didn't mention Trump. by name. It was just the sort of like.

thing expressed in the ether. And it was. like, why are we playing coy with this. stuff? Like, if you really do believe. in, you know, the values which at the. time Zuckerberg really said he believed. in, you know, things like standing up. for dreamers, you know, standing up for. the rights of, you know, underrepresented people, for for. immigrants, um you know, for. communities, you know, that were, you. know, diverse. All those communities Trump attacked. From literally day one when he rode down. that escalator in Trump Tower and he. said that it was his mission to. basically, you know, exercise them from.

society and roll the clock back to the. '50s. And if you're not going to stand. up for your values when, you know, there's something as consequential as a. future president of the United States, you know, starting to spew those things, when are you ever going to stand up to. them? >> So, so Facebook I sort of understand. because it's, you know, it's. public-facing in many ways and and we. see its effects. You know, you see. um Facebook on trial or Meta on trial. for like Instagram and the things they. knew and how it affects um you know, younger users, particularly girls.

Um you see them on trial for like. trying to get kids addicted to the. platforms that they create. So, so. they're they're pretty like. front-facing. Help me understand on like a SpaceX. side. What could go wrong? It's It's. space. You You're launching rockets into. space and then this is a good thing, you. know, you launch the thing and you make. it cheaper and you put satellites where. they're supposed to be and we see the. world and and like. what what could go wrong at SpaceX? >> Well, uh. this is now well after I've left SpaceX, but now SpaceX is one of the companies. that is uh.

obviously a prime defense contractor and. part of the work um you know, that is. now unfolding is, you know, to obviously. develop a new generation of weapons and. infrastructure to enable the US to win. future wars. Um you know, there are proposals such as. Golden Dome, you know, the absolutely. astonishing space-based missile defense. system that Trump wants to build, which. some estimates say will cost over a. trillion dollars. SpaceX is going to be. the primary contractor for all of that. And these are things now where.

again, this is the duality of the the. moment. Um you could say, "Oh, it's a defensive. missile shield, designed to shoot down. incoming, you know, nuclear warheads.". >> Yeah. >> Maybe that's okay. Except if you are part of a nexus of. leaders and institutions which are. exerting tremendous political authority. and economic power because the. technologies you're developing have. become so central to economic growth in. the United States, you have the ability.

to radically shift agendas here. If you've chosen instead to just make a. bunch of money building space-based. military infrastructure rather than. using your overall influence to in fact. shift us to a world where. maybe we don't have to fight. Why are we. preparing for a nuclear war instead of. trying to figure out how to not have. nuclear wars? Then I would say that is a historic. mismatch of resources that is like not. the wrong strategy that's not the right. strategy. And of course Elon Musk. himself.

well after I worked for him has now. taken on a role which I think is. unforgivable in the tech industry and in. the world. The the work he did on its. own of gutting USAID through Doge which. we have emphatic reporting about the. lives that have been lost the children. who died. He should not ever be rehabilitated. Like that is a guy who should be on. trial. Yeah, it did um. Yeah, that I mean that's that's probably. one of the most heinous things him and. the administration did. >> Mhm.

>> Because it was. was just spiteful. >> That's right. >> Do you know what I mean? It it had no it. had no material effect on the United. States on its budget on its money but. the effect that it has now had on the. countries and in the world that needed. it has been. like like generationally devastating. >> That's right. So that's the thing right? Space and space technology could just be. brilliant. And if we just looked at that. if we just had a tunnel vision we had a. naval gazing on that. Fantastic. But. like when your boss is like out there. gutting aid agencies and children are. dying like the two things are connected.

>> So so what do you what do you feel like. your mission is now then now that you. are not in the industry? What what are. you what are you trying to rally? What. are you what are you trying to move. people towards? >> I'm very focused now on the societal. implications of AI. Um. I spent the last several years and you. know I was back at Google and you know a. lot of the last 15 years have been. involved in AI and the technology and. how quickly it is gathering steam how. much more advanced it's getting, how. much more advanced it will be in the.

next decade. That is something which is. going to be wildly more devastating than. any of the consequences of the. mismanaged technologies of the last 15. years. And the consequences will crash. land on societies all over the world. We. are not prepared for these things at. all. Economically, societally, geopolitically, environmentally. And. that's the agenda that I'm really. focused on. The tech industry has. massively distorted the agenda for how. to manage these things. We talk about AI. governance. Yeah. And there's a whole. bunch of stuff which is about how you.

manage the AI systems themselves. That's. like 1% of the problem. 15 years from now, probably less than 15 years, when a lot. of people have lost their jobs to AI, and we have no economic solutions, we. have no idea how to give people a good. quality of life, that is a much, much. bigger problem than some of the. technical issues we're facing with those. systems. What happens when AI. turbocharged industries consume wildly. more resources, and they destabilize. already reeling ecosystems which we know. are hanging by a thread, and which will.

impact the lives of millions, if not. billions of people. Um, between 2018 and. 2023, the world consumed almost as much. resources as 1/3 of the 20th century. And it's accelerating all the time. And. these are these are things where in. fact, you know, big tech companies, they. go to government, they're desperate for. economic growth now, right? A lot of the. advanced economies in the global north, they've got plateauing growth, they've. got declining living standards. They go. to them and say, "Build this wondrous technology. Build. this infrastructure. We will give you.

back the keys to a good future." And of. course, that's not happening. Um, this. is something which on the present path. promises to enrich a tiny sliver of. societies, mostly in the United States, mostly in China. And I think the world. we're going to end up in, you know, in. the next, you know, 10, 15 years, is. going to be much more unstable than. today, with rapidly declining living. standards for hundreds of millions of. people, I think a lot of graduates will. not be able to get good jobs at all. People who did a whole bunch of things. in their lives and were told if they did.

these things right, they would get a. good life and their kids would have. better lives than them. That is not. going to happen at all on the path we're. on. And so, is the tech industry going. to solve these things? No. And in fact, they they have tried to minimize debate. about these things. They've tried to. point people back towards the technical. solutions. Now, it is a moment in which. societies and our leaders need to have a. mainstream conversation about what the. heck we're going to do to manage all of. those effects. And that cannot be left. up to the tech industry. >> But now we're in a situation where.

like you said earlier in the. conversation, the world affected tech and now tech is. affecting the world. >> Mhm. >> Right? In the lead-up to, you know, some. of the. elections happening in the US, the tech giants have put together some. of the most insane. like amounts for for for um. political campaigns. They're going after. every single politician who is proposing. any type of restraint or constraint on.

um AI. And whether we like it or not, you know, money shapes a lot of uh an election. So, you have the tech industry fighting. to define how it should be managed or it. should be governed. >> Mhm. >> And the people who are going to govern. it being funded by them. It seems like a an infinite loop that's. that's for the most part already lost. unless something big breaks as we've. seen, you know, in the past. It's only. when something big breaks that that.

something changes dramatically. >> I mean, I don't think we should be under. any illusions. The most likely path. we're on, the one we are on right now, leads to disaster for our societies and. all societies globally. I actually don't. think anyone gets out of this thing. I. have I've the last, you know, 6 months. traveling the world talking to leaders. and, you know, a whole bunch of people. behind closed doors where you have some. really, you know, spine-tingling. conversations. And there's a there's a. strain of opinion, mostly in the US and. China, which thinks we can just win this.

race for AI. And. yeah, a bunch of other people get. screwed, but we'll be okay. And that's. not going to happen when, of course, you. have societies all over the world that. are going to be in chaos. No one gets. out of this thing in one piece. But, uh. we're in a moment now where I think. actually a lot of. >> across societies, you know, who are. paying a bit of attention, they're. seeing things are failing on a number of. fronts. You know, you look at all the. polling. Why is it the overwhelming. majority of societies in almost all the. world say things are generally going in.

the wrong direction. People are angry. They realize that, you know, there. aren't new answers. There is no vision. coming from the top anymore. And in that. context, you then have big tech racing. to install these systems where people. are now really worried about their jobs. You know, there's a lot of polling. showing that the number one thing that. gets people, you know, panicked about. AI, which explains why it is, in fact, incredibly unpopular with societies, is. because they're worried about their. future jobs. Um so, this is something. where I think actually there's a lot of. people who already are looking for a. very different approach to how you.

manage these things. Um the debate has. not shifted there yet because I think a. lot of people don't understand the scale. of what might happen, the speed at which. this will unfold, and how interconnected. all these agendas are. When people. really do understand that the. technologies that might give you amazing. apps on your phone also might be things. that destroy the prospect of your kids. having future jobs, and also will. threaten, you know, natural ecosystems, then it becomes a very different um. agenda. >> So, I hear you on a.

on a on a on a macro scale. But, like. what are we actually doing? What are we. actually trying. to do? Like where where where does it start? Who does it start with? >> Mhm. What is the first action, the. second action? What do we hope to. achieve on the other side of it? >> I think before you can get really. granular about lots of tactics, you. really need to have one on the idea. Like does anyone think Donald Trump is. the president because of his exceptional.

ability to run a disciplined campaign? Like he had an idea and it was an idea. fit for a moment and you know, poised to. disrupt a whole bunch of bad incumbent. ideas. His answer was another set of bad. ideas, some really truly evil and. villainous ideas, but he had ideas. And. what is happening now is that. in the absence of any vision of what our. future could be, we're just staggering on trying to prop. up the things that are not working, the.

remnants of these old economic, political, geopolitical systems, the. shreds of the international order built. in the 1950s. No one is truly saying, "This isn't working. What could. something that actually works look. like?" And don't don't focus on what's. politically achievable, focus on what do. you actually want to build? If you could. get away with it, what's the real. best-case scenario? And I think you have. to start there because if you do that, the world isn't static. The moment you. have leaders with vision, you can change.

reality around you in enormous ways. You. know, Donald Trump is the guy who was. hosting The Apprentice and now he's the. most powerful man in the world. The moment you have a vision, you can. start to really move things in ways that. may seem utterly implausible. And I. think actually the things that most. people want in the world, including the. United States and the UK, wherever you. look, are generally things that were. pretty timeless. They want to be able to. give their kids a better quality of life. than they have. They want to be able to. live in peace. They don't want to have.

to worry about going to war. They They. want to preserve nature. They want to. have a climate, you know, that is. something that, you know, isn't. something that's you know, collapsing. And. when you really wake people up to the. fact that there is no plan for any of. these things now, and we're almost out. of time, and there is still a chance to. not only avert the disaster, but here's. the thing. What if we could use all that technology. now. with a very different vision of our. societies and our politics and our. economics to build a radically better. future, something that really does solve.

these problems for all time in a big. way? Then a lot of people get really hopeful. They get excited about that. You know, so this is the stuff that, you know, I'm. going around the world talking about. I. absolutely don't believe we solve our. problems by pretending they don't exist. There's a certain strain of people who. think, "Oh, this is too depressing. Let's not talk about all these things.". But if you can admit the path we're on. is not working, but then also wake. people up to what could the tech really. do. if it was harnessed with an agenda. designed to truly provide a good life to.

everyone, not just that narrow sliver of. billionaires and to the, you know, tiny. percentage of people, then people really, I think in many. cases, they long for it. They wish that. there was something coming that would. save us. >> That's an That's an interesting It's an. interesting idea because it's it's um. yeah, it proposes. it proposes something that I guess. isn't often pushed, which is first shift. the mindset and then let's get into the. granular. Let's sell like the idea of a future or.

a world. and get people on the same page. Is it possible when we. I mean like. we even having this conversation at the. mercy of the very machine that we are. trying to disrupt. I always think about that paradox. I go. you are putting a thing on the internet, on social media platforms, basically trashing the social media. platforms and the way they run, which. which. inherently is like this weird conflict.

of interest {slash} even like it you you. you go will it even allow you to do it. if it gets to a certain point like. like how do you think of that conundrum? Like we how do you how do you begin a. movement when the very thing that is. moving you is part of the thing you're. trying to change? >> I mean it's something which I think. there probably are real consequences, right? I mean and things that we may not. even know about. You know, the lack of. transparency in how algorithms operate. means that certain content may maybe. deprioritized when it's critical. or you know, touches certain issues.

That's something you know, I was at. Meta's oversight board, you know, a few. years ago which you know, was an. independent body looking at how content. was managed on these platforms and the. things that the company did every day to. put its thumb on the scale or blow your. mind. You can see all that data online. The board has made it publicly. available. It would shock people. But. they can't stop everyone. If conversations. and agendas really are, you know, moving. people and there's lots of other. channels which we can go for, right? These are agendas which have to be. pushed politically, in business, you.

know, in the vast majority of the. world's economies which are not the tech. industry, through communities, right? Through. nations all over the world. You can you. can advance ideas on infinite numbers of. other vectors which ultimately are going. to penetrate and you know, you see lots. of you know, different points of view on. social media even while you've got some. platforms which have clearly tried to. put their thumb on the scale. People. aren't going to shut up. And in fact, some of those heavy-handed attempts to. muzzle debate or to pretend that.

everything's fine, it's just the. industrial revolution again. That stuff. backfires so catastrophically on the. people who say those things, you know, because of course, you know, I think. every serious person realizes that's. that's [ __ ]. So I think we have to try. I mean. ultimately comes down to this, right? The. the vision of the good future and then. how we actually achieve that, turn it. into a plan, you know, what does a new. economic model look like for societies. when machines will take jobs? Um. that's going to be really hard. It's. going to be the hardest thing we've ever.

achieved in history and the odds are. stacked against us from the start and we. would never choose to do it at this. moment in time when we're already. reeling from crises and yet what other. choice do we have? And that's the thing. I think there's a moment now where. politicians they can just keep trying to. pretend everything's normal and they can. try to cosplay basically as like 90s. politicians when everything was sort of. >> Yeah, yeah. It was easier, simpler, yeah. >> They can do that and that's what most of. them will do. Humans are just like AI, they're bad pattern recognition. machines. So people will look at all. this stuff and they'll be like, "Ah, actually it's not this doom and stuff.

It's just It's just this stuff over. here. It's stuff from the past we've. already seen.". But they'll fail. They won't solve these. problems and because they will not. succeed in solving them, angry, volatile. populations facing declining living. standards and rising chaos, they will. overthrow those people. They will demand. probably worse alternatives. That's why. populists are coming to power. That's. why nationalists are advancing every day. and then we end up in more and more. chaos. But the politicians who realize. that that is not the good future and now. we really need to say.

we don't have the answers but we do. understand what is happening and the. problem. They will be the people who can. begin to shift that agenda and that's. what I'm trying to do now, to work with. the leaders, to work with people who. really want to start having that. radically different conversation and I. don't think talking about it is a sort. of Kumbaya kind of thing. It's not a. let's spend years having a nice. conversation. It is. this has to happen really fast now. We. have to have people understand. specifically what is happening and if we. can do that then we can very quickly get.

to a practical tactics and an agenda but. we have a we have a narrow window in. which to do all these things now. >> A narrow window and. yeah, a mighty mighty tall ask. >> Thanks. Thank you very much, man. >> Thanks, Damian. >> Yeah, man. Um good luck. Good luck on. the on the rest of the tour and the. leaders that you meet. Um. I think you're giving us lots to think. about. >> Yeah. >> It's going to be a. a hell of a 15 years. >> There is a way out of this stuff. We are. not destined to fail, but we have to. admit that it's not working.

>> All right. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. >> Thank you so much for watching the. episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on. to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friend still. Let them suffer for a change. And don't. forget to engage your lesson in the. comments. If you want to uh suggest a. guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you. can chat to us. We will read through the. comments and we'll get into it. Either. way, I appreciate you taking the time.

Thank you for hanging out with us on. What Now. And remember, we do this for. you, so we would like to hear from you. Till next time. Thank you.