Cleo Abram: What Could Go Right?

[music]. Oh, wait. Let's talk about aliens. Actually, Eugene is a huge fan of. aliens. >> I am alien. Have you Have you discovered. anything? >> Like, >> apparently, we're close to making first. contact in the next two years. >> You see, I love it. Now, we're at the. party. He's just said that. >> Yeah. So, there's a guy. >> first first have your drink and say it. I think it it sets the scene. >> We're at a party. >> Hey, so aliens. >> [laughter].

>> So, there's an extraterrestrial. uh being that comes through a guy called. Daryl Anker. [laughter]. >> Don't you just hate it when your. pessimistic friend is a DJ? [laughter]. >> [music]. >> This is What now with Trevor Noah.

[music]. You take your time. You take your time. You just go ahead. and take your time. Every moment, every. second you need, you just take it. Do. they have that on on YouTube? But I know. they have subtitles and dubbing, but can. you dub to other accents? That would be. dope. >> That would be nice. We should just have. the whole episode in a certain accent. >> They I think you should do that for this.

episode. >> We really should. >> I think you should ADR it after. >> Just do the whole thing. What's ADR? >> Uh I think it's challenged. >> I actually don't know what I I Oh, I did. what I always hate, which is using an. acronym when I don't know what it stands. for. I think what ADR means is when they. go back in a movie and make the same. sounds again uh when they didn't catch. it. Okay. Oh, yeah. You've acted in No, that. is ADR. Is that right? >> ADDITIONAL DIALOGUE RECORD.

>> Additional dialogue recording. But they. should have a name for it when it's over. the other ones cuz not additional. This. is the same dialogue recording. >> Just do it again. >> It should be called DDR, duplicate. dialogue recording. >> And you can upload your own audio files. on YouTube. >> What do you mean? So you could post the. video. Yeah. And then you post another. audio file. And I think you'd have to. call it you'd have to choose a language. I don't think like southern American. >> I'm actually we should start doing that. We'll make every episode in another. accent as well because people people. think of everyone who speaks other. languages.

>> But what about other accent speakers? What about them? >> Yeah. No one cares about that. >> We could be doing this whole episode in. an English accent. Eugene. I say Eugene. >> I couldn't. But you could. >> Yo, but the universal African accent. must never see the light of day ever. [laughter] again. I'm definitely. >> cuz whoever came up with that universe. cuz even in Africa we are you which. accent are you talking about? >> It's I can't even like do it. It's hard. >> Yeah, that accent. >> it's in like every movie where there's. Africans but they're not African. >> Africans hear it but where.

>> it's a very it's a very specific kind of. accent. I don't even know how to do it. because it's nowhere. >> You shouldn't know. It's nowhere. >> Because if you did know, [laughter]. >> then you. >> No, but do you do [laughter] you um you. know, it's we were talking about this. just before we started recording and I. wonder if you have to think about this, you know, as as your platform's grown, as you've gotten bigger, do you have to. think about balancing out like what.

you'll do for a view and then what the. views will do for the people who are. viewing the thing? >> H. >> tell me more about what you mean by. that. So, what we were chatting about. earlier is let's say I'm interviewing. somebody on the show, right? We're. hanging out here. It's me, Eugene, the. person, who whoever it is. [snorts]. Let's say they're a politician and then. you go like, for instance, we had Zoran. on on the show and then someone's like, oh, it would be cool if you did a thing. on Trump and whatever. And then I go, it. could be cool and it could be crazy and. you could do whatever you want, right? So, I could go off and and do like, let's say I do like a mini roast of.

Trump or whatever. Here I am with Zoran. So he's like Zoran Manny, the mayor of. New York. And then you're like, "Oh, let's play out what happens." Like, "Welcome Zoran. Nice to see you in my. office, Mama Danny. Nice to see you, Mama Danny." Now, if he joins in. >> and [clears throat] Trump sees that. >> and Trump gets pissed off and then goes, "Oh, I'm going to cut funding for New. York.". >> Was it worth it? >> No. [clears throat]. >> That's my point. >> Yeah. >> So now, but I wouldn't have to think. that if we only had like 50 viewers, then you just do whatever you want.

>> Yeah. But you wouldn't feel good about. it even if you had 50. >> Oh, I would definitely feel good about. it. Do you How can you not feel good. about an actout? >> It Well, I'll just say about my show. I've constructed the whole thing so that. it prevents that question because the. premise of the show is I'm going to. genuinely explain something to you. that's complicated that I want you to. understand. >> I'm going to do it in a way that is in. the end optimistic. You're going to have. a specific feeling about like, oh, there.

are smart people working on a hard. problem and I can see how we could make. this better. And then it's going to be. visual and beautiful and joyful all at. the same time. And if it does those. three things, >> visual, beautiful, and joyful. [clears throat]. >> It's uh three things. >> Whenever I look at you, Eugene, that's. what I think of. >> I think you are visual. I think you are. joyful. And I think you are beautiful. You're. >> really beautiful. It's not often. >> Your hands are warm and mine are cold. That was nice. >> Okay, let's go.

>> Um, the three things, no, the three. things are genuinely good explainer, >> genuinely optimistic, >> and visually stunning. A visual piece, >> huh? >> And so, if it's those three things, then. it gets to be on huge. And if it's not. one of those things, then it shouldn't. be there. And so, that provides a lot of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those are the threats. >> Yeah. And if so, it's not one of those. things, then the pressure is on me and. on my team and on I mean, frankly, the. audience now now knows like what feels. like huge and what doesn't.

>> And it it's a pressure that. counterweights a lot of the other. pressures on journalists and on. >> Okay. Okay. Got it. >> Clicky, to be pessimistic, to be um. >> unscrupulous, insensitive, >> all of those things. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a counterweight. And I'm not saying like it's it's. perfect every time. We we also think a. lot about how do I do those three things. in a way that millions of people want to. watch. So there's absolutely like a a. storytelling element to it, but it strips away a lot of the things.

that I didn't like as a journalist that. I don't want to watch that aren't in the. end helpful for me to actually. understand something make me feel. optimistic about the future that I can. participate in building. Um and that use. the fact that it's a video, right? like. watching a video requires a lot of your. time and attention. It requires your. eyes in addition to your ears. And so I. think a lot about how do I earn that. from my audience. So anyway, if those if. I'm doing those three things, then it. should be on the show. And in those.

moments where like you can feel the. pressure. to to do something else because you. think it'll spike in viewership. >> I mean, everyone talks about that. everyone who's been involved in YouTube. because because I think there's a. there's a specific um there's a. delineation between the types of content. you make when you when you're making it. for like what we call like mainstream. media let's say. >> your bosses have already confirmed it. goes out it's commissioned it gets put. on TV or in the movies and then it's. done YouTube you are the boss you're.

making you're making the decisions. you're putting it out there you're doing. your thing so in essence the only. driving force behind whether it does or. doesn't go out as you. >> Yeah. >> Right. But that means that people I. remember talking to is Jake Paul or. Logan Paul? I always forget which. brother. I think it was Jake. I think it. was Jake, but it was and um was. interviewing him and [clears throat] we. were talking about his life and his. show. And then he talked about how the. the click cycle got him.

>> He did one thing. He he he fell. somewhere. He broke something and then. people like more of that, more of that. And they didn't say it verbally, but. people loved it. And then you got to do. it again. >> forest, a suicide forest in Japan, and. you are looking at yourself going, "How. did I get here?". >> But standup has a lot of those elements, right? >> Oh, yeah. Standup when we first started. was just us trying to see how far we can. push the envelope. >> Yeah. You're not wrong.

>> And then you get one TV gig and now you. have to be careful. You get one. endorsement, now they're like, "Also, are you going to say that for real? Real. real real.". >> Yeah. But it's almost the other way. around. Funny enough, with standup, now. that you mention it, >> it's almost like standup. >> they. >> they almost calm you down in a way cuz a. standup's what we're trying you see like. your rules. I I don't know about all. standups, but like I can say for myself. and this gentleman seated across from. me, this fine squire right here across. from me. [laughter]. >> I would say it's like if we think of our. rules, you go, >> do we find it interesting? >> Yes.

>> Yeah. >> Do we think it's funny? >> Yes. >> Then that's it. It's as it's as simple. as it doesn't matter where it goes and. how it goes. You're trying to break. everything. You're trying. >> things that you know the audience might. like. >> that you don't think are funny that you. think are just not they don't make you. feel good. >> Yes. >> That would that that helps a lot. That. feeling like for me it's these three. criteria I've come up with this spec and. it helps to have a. >> I think what I'm what I'm really coming. to in this is it really helps to have a. mission.

>> It really really helps. These criteria. are part of the overall mission of the. show which is in my case and everyone. chooses their own. My mission is I make. this show so I can show people with. those three criteria explain to them. things in an optimistic way in a a. visually beautiful way. >> I make the show so I can show people. visions of the future because I believe. that if they see those visions in a. optimistic way they can help build them.

So my goal, I'm not an engineer, I'm not. a scientist. My goal is to present who's. working on hard things and how are they. doing it and what could it potentially. do and how could it go wrong and how. could it go right. >> and [clears throat] make a optimistic. explainer video that helps people see if. you're watching it in the audience and. maybe you are someone who could help and. I believe that everybody can in their. own way. >> You can help participate in making that. better somehow. >> I look at people like you with a mission. and I go, why do you care? Well, now we could get into all kinds. of, you know, my the way that I grew up.

and and why I want to do this work. >> Then let's do it. >> Let's do it. I'm happy to. Let's. [laughter] do it. >> I like how you said it like we don't. have an option. You're like, "No, well. then I got to get into like [laughter]. >> you've come to the right place. >> Why did you get it?" Cuz I remember when. So I I'll give you a bit of context. When I first came across your work, >> I had just started on the Daily Show. So. um I joined the Daily Show in 2015, right? when John Stewart was still. around. And so I was just a. correspondent. John would phone me and.

be like, "Come and do this funny thing.". I'll be like, "Yeah." And then we'd. leave and then, you know what I mean, back and forth, back and forth. John. announces he's leaving. They find a new. host. The host happens to be me. I've. shrunk the process down. But before I. was going to host the show, I went. through this like I want to say like. six, seven month period of just I mean. like gorging on every piece of content. that I could cuz I just had to learn. about this new country and this new. place. but from the inside, >> you know. So, what's the news? Where's. the news coming from? And and then.

America's unique. And I guess now it's. not as unique as as it was at that time. in that the news doesn't just come from. one place. >> Yeah. >> You know, so we grew up where it was. like, did you watch the news? >> Yes, I watched the news. >> And then now here it's like which news? >> Whose news? >> Whose news? Who said it's the news? >> So now I'm watching all news, collecting. all news. And I remember coming across. your work and at the time it was on Vox, right? Yeah. And Vox was this new. platform that had come out and they were. explaining stuff and they made the news.

digestible. And let me tell you, if. there's somebody who needed stuff. explained. >> Mhm. >> This guy right here. >> Cuz I was like, "What? What? What is a. filibuster? Wait, what is happening? Who's passing? Who Jerry mandering? Who's Jerry? Why is he mandering? What. is [laughter] going on here?" I was. like, "What is happening in this. country?" And you know, the funny thing. is, um, Americans will make it seem like. they know what's happening. >> Yeah. They make it look like everything. is normal. >> Yeah. And then when you find out about. and then you ask most Americans, they'll. be like, I actually don't. I actually. don't. And and not in like a way,

just there's there's so many. >> intricate little details to the system. And that's when I came across your work. You're making these videos, making these. videos, making these videos. And it was. doing pretty well. And then you you just. left. >> And you left when things were going well. at Vox, and you were just gone. This is. the best time to leave anything. >> Ah, I mean that's the greatest. [laughter]. >> there. You have to you really have to. wait for workman's camp. >> Leave your marriage. >> You advice. Leave your marriage on a.

high. [laughter]. >> Make sure to leave your marriage on a. high. Honey, can I just say I am having. the best time ever with I love you so. much. I love you so much. I'm leaving. What? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just figured. advice. [laughter]. >> So, so take us back. >> It wasn't like that. >> No. So, so let's go back. Let's let's. let's try and understand. >> Yeah. >> I think as Eugene eloquently pointed. out, how do we how do we get to the core. of this person who wants to make things.

that are optimistic and informative and. visually beautiful in a world where you. get more reward for making things that. are negative and rage bay and cuz you. could have a big show on YouTube doing. that. You could go, "Let me show you why. the Hedron collider is going to kill all. of us. Let me show you why dinosaurs are. going to come back and kill all of us. Let me show you why asteroids are going. to kill all of you could you could make. that and I think it would maybe do. slightly better than what you currently. have. >> in the very short term, maybe.". >> Oh, I like this. So, let's let's go down. a rabbit hole. You're good. How do we.

meet you at this point? What what what. happened in your life that made you this. person? So I was, if we rewind all the way back, I was a. kid who I grew up in Washington DC and. my parents were both lawyers and my mom. was working for Congress and my dad was. a litigator and he did a lot of death. penalty cases and we would talk about. these things. We would talk about my. homework and we would talk about their. work at the dinner table. And I both of. my parents were the kind of people where. if I gave them something that I'd. written, they would like cross out the. lines really brutally and say like.

there's a simpler way to say this. like. you can always say it in a simpler way. that people can better understand. >> Wow. >> And my dad in these these cases that he. would work on, >> I really saw as a young kid how if you. can explain something complicated in a. way that 12 normal people can. understand. You can actually save. someone's life like in a real way. Like. that's what he was demonstrating when I. was a kid. >> And I guess that lesson stuck with me. It's hard sometimes it's easier now to. draw lines from you know what you did.

like now I see how that's connected at. the time like it was just a thing that I. knew. >> and I grew up and I go to college and I. graduate and I begin working at Vox VOX. and Vox at the time was doing explainer. journalism which I loved um and I'll. shorten the story somewhat but. >> no no there's no rush there's no rush. here we were fully in. >> great. >> you only need to start Eugene does the. yawn. Then we. >> I'll look for it. >> It's a very special It's a very special.

type of yawn that Eugene has. It's fake, but it works well on people. [laughter]. >> I I'll show you an example. Now, I'm I'm. going to tell you about my morning and. then I'll show you I'll show you how. Eugene just gently lets you know that. it's time to move [laughter] on. >> So, this morning guys, I I wanted to. have oats and you know how sometimes. your oats [laughter]. you know sometimes your oats are like. >> I don't need you in my life. [laughter]. >> No, please go on. God. >> Um, [clears throat]. so I.

we can come back to my journey inside. box because I started on the business. side and then I began uh here I I'll. promise. Um, >> but. fast forward to I'd been working as a. journalist for a couple years. >> and I'd been covering technology. I'd. been making things for Explained on. Netflix, which is a a wonderful show. that Vox made. Very intricate deep dives. into different things that matter in the. world. I had made one on computer. programming and one on diamonds. explained which are really fun to work.

on. >> I've seen that one. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's awesome. >> We talked about artificial diamonds. versus we went through diamond the. sentiment and then the history of like. why the market. >> Yes. And then we ended on artificial. diamonds. It was so fun to make. I love. doing that. >> I love that. It was so good. >> Thank you. >> It made me feel smart because I was. like, "Oh, there is a Yeah. Okay. >> Thank you.". >> Yeah. Um, so I I've been working on on. Vox in that way, but I also was a this. is a person who loves learning about. technology and I was looking at it my. media diet and I was really unhappy with.

it. I was really frustrated and I I. think to boil down the reason that I was. frustrated was I felt like. there was this. knee-jerk pessimism. >> in the news that I was consuming. >> Mhm. >> That was preventing me from. understanding what was really happening. in the world and also understanding how. I could participate in making the world. a better place. >> Right. And I in doing some research I. happened upon an article um I was.

looking through the New York Times. archive for reporting reasons and I. found an article from 1903. October 9003 and it was called flying. machines which do not fly. This is like. you can go into the New York Times artic. uh archive and find this article. >> It talks about how we will basically. never have planes. >> It talks about how. >> when is this? >> This is 1903. >> Mhm. We will never have planes. >> We will never have planes. They. basically say it boils down to if it.

took birds thousands of years to de to. develop evolutionarily the ability to. fly, it'll take humans millions of. years. And it ends my favorite line in. this piece, I still remember it is. something like um. >> good luck. >> is basically it basically is like it. basically is like [laughter] the effort. might be employed more profitably or. something. It was 1903 they were. writing. >> That's beautiful. >> And um and so basically they were saying. like do other things. This will never. work. effort might be employed. profitably elsewhere. >> profitably elsewhere. >> Yeah. >> October 9, 1903. December 17, 1903.

>> 2 months later was when the Wright. brothers took their first assisted Yeah. [snorts]. >> two months later. >> And I looked at that and I put the. timeline together and I was like, what? Like that. >> matters to me somehow. Like something. something is wrong here. And we've been. doing this and it felt similar to what. we were doing today. It wasn't just like. a thing they did in 1903. This was like. a knee-jerk pessimism about some about. new technologies or or dreams or.

scientific efforts. Oh, that won't work. or once it starts to work, oh, people. won't want it. >> or this will go really really wrong and. there's no way it'll help people. This. is only going to hurt people. >> And I looked at that and I thought like. first this isn't a modern thing. I feel. like it's been getting worse for reasons. we can talk about, but like this has. been happening. Look at this article. from 1903. But then also, why does that matter? Like why care? Maybe the media is generally a little. bit pessimistic. Maybe there's also this.

like hype cycle that happens sometimes. and that's also a problem. And so. altogether like why is this really a. problem? What why should I start some. new show that's going to offer something. different, you know? And I think there. are two problems with that that. pessimism. The first is. that it stops the conversation from. getting interesting. Like if I tell you. airplanes, they just won't work. We'll. have like a fiveminute conversation. about why airplanes won't work. >> Yeah. >> But you'll never get to the conversation. about like, wait, if they work, that.

means that people are going to start. living in different places than their. families. That means that people are. going to start traveling to other. countries. That means that global trade. is going to fundamentally change a lot. in the next hundred years. if you told. my grandfather. >> what that was going to look like and. just the I mean he was alive when planes. existed but like just the the absolute. skyrocketing of the commercial airline. industry. >> that would have been a fascinating. conversation if you'd if you'd said like. let's just assume that it works for the. purpose of this conversation. >> that's basically what I try and do on my. show and let's assume all the ways in. which it could go you know arai like.

okay now we can have a conversation. about. >> CO2 emissions now we can have a. conversation about like the impacts of. >> tourism. but you only get to those conversations. about real problems when you assume that. it's going to work. >> and you don't have that pessimism. So. that's the first reason. And then the. second reason, the thing that was really. frustrating me was there's this kind of. maybe it's a nihilism that takes hold. when people don't believe that the world. can get better and that they can help. make that happen. It's like if the world.

is just getting worse. >> and I can't do anything about it and I'm. not seeing stories about people that are. helping make it better and I'm not. imagining technologies like quantum. computers for example. I'm only. imagining the ways in which they're. going to be a security problem and not. the ways in which they're going to help. develop new medicines and new materials. >> then I like why do I why should I try. why shouldn't I just be very. self-interested and like. >> pessimism coupled with helplessness. always goes well together. >> That's a much more succinct way to put. it. Yeah. like your dad said, >> "Yeah, >> you just scratched out the thing and you. just [laughter] like bam.".

>> Pessimism combined with helplessness. Go. do your homework. >> You're trying to do the opposite. >> You know, I I I often find that um a. healthy amount of pessimism is a good. catalyst for people to act. >> So, you've you've often heard people who. are very successful talking about the. teacher that told them they'll never. amount to anything. >> Yeah. M. >> then we have that conversation in. hindsight of them being successful and. the teacher seemingly being pessimistic. and and negative. >> Yeah. They were reacting to it. >> Exactly. >> But they had to have the optimism,

right? Like they had to like push off. against it. >> They never speak about optimism that. they had to have to push against the. pessimism. That's that's true. But I. sometimes think to myself in that same. situation to what you're saying. I think. a more positive catalyst is one. >> that sort of prompts your optimism as. opposed to you know because I think of. how many people are defeated by that. that statement. >> you will never you'll never amount to. anything you'll never be anything you'll. never go anywhere. >> I think it works on a lot of people cuz.

if your teacher is telling you that. >> who knows you better. >> do you know what I mean if someone's. like hey I've been looking at your body. of work from the age of 8 to 11. >> Mhm. Yo man, this shit's not going to. work out for you in life. >> But teachers never say that. >> No, they say. >> remember that teacher is per grade. because people always remember one. snippet of their school career where one. teacher said that and it's very rare. that you go with a teacher from grade. zero. >> No, we went with like in primary school. we like the same teacher said this to. you for 12 years. >> We you met them literally.

>> What evil teacher did you have? >> No, but this is what I'm trying to say. to you. We all knew that and there was. always like that teacher. Everyone knew. them as that teacher. Do you get what. I'm saying? Wherever they catch you, they'll tell you. >> The number of people who must have been. inspired also by a teacher who said, "By. the way, have you ever considered that. you could do this?". >> Exactly. >> Like I've actually heard more stories. like that in the end of of teachers. When I think about my life, I think. about the teachers who said like, "Oh, you're very interested in this. Have you. read this book? Have you like done. that?" They're sort of fueling you. >> in this way. And I sometimes think of.

the show that we now make. Um, the show. is called Huge If True, that I left Vox. to make this show independently on. YouTube. Okay? >> And I think about it like that. I think. about it like offering a menu of stories. and options and futures that could come. true to people that might be able to. help make them happen or to an audience. that just wants to understand what they. could potentially do with their lives. and with their time or with their free. time. you take for granted how powerful. that is because.

>> I I don't know if you've if you've seen. any of the um any of the polls that. people have conducted around AI. >> right when they ask the general public. what do you think of AI and not not like. how it's being applied now just AI as a. concept. >> the sentiment is generally negative like. you go would you trust machines would. you trust an all powerful AI do you. think it would be good for humanity. without fail a majority of the. population says no it won't be good for. us It's gonna kill us. It's going to. take over. It's gonna do you know what I. mean?

>> It's also interesting that most of those. people have had their views shaped by. the images of AI that they they had. growing up. So they watched Terminator, they were watching Star Wars, they were. watching. So they go like, "Oh, no. There's only one path that technology. can take. >> It only goes this way.". >> Yeah. It it can only go this way and it. can kill you. An interesting poll that I. saw the other day, I was shocked by. this, is. people in Africa generally have a more. positive attitude towards artificial. general intelligence. >> than people in the Western world.

>> Yeah. Cuz people in Africa deal with. racism for a long time. >> You see you, my man. >> And that was man-made intelligence. >> You see you, my man. >> ARTIFICIAL. [laughter]. >> But I is the other half of my brain. [laughter]. You know when people are like you're. left brain right brain I'm like Eugene. [laughter]. >> but it's true. No but but it's it's. exactly what you're saying right it's. interesting how. >> people who have assumed that the. intelligence will be built around them.

and their histories and their pasts. >> now think that that same technology will. go on to do to them what they did to. others. >> But then the people who were only on. like the receiving end in recent history. of a thing go like oh yeah any change is. good change. >> They could be like maybe this will work. Yeah, cuz it also puts us in an equal. footing. I look at wars the same. >> Oh, damn. I didn't think about that. You. don't know. I don't know. Let's see what. this thing can do for us. >> AI would be the white people of. everyone. >> Yes. Yes. Yes.

[clears throat]. >> Cuz that Hey, >> you want. >> I do. [laughter]. You noticed I [laughter] was feeling a. little. >> She wants a dip. [laughter]. >> I did. You have to take us seriously. >> I [laughter]. >> Please continue with your point.

>> I just actually that is a question. That. is a question that I have and maybe it's. because I'm I'm comedy biased. It's just. because of my brain. It's not like how I. I don't choose to have this filter on. the world. >> But you also have humor in your content. You also. >> do I I don't think I mean I'm not funny. like you guys are funny. >> No, but there's I promise you there's. humor in it. Like when I was watching. your your your asteroid video, it's. funny. Like the fact that you have Mark. Robber voicing an asteroid, that's a. funny thing to do to be talking about. the potential destruction of Earth and. then use a funny person's voice on the.

video. >> That's funny. You know, when you're. talking about like when you're doing the. dinosaurs one and you're going around. with the archaeologist and you're. brushing There were funny moments in. that and. >> Oh, you've really watched the show. This. is awesome. >> Wow. That Why would I invite you here if. I hadn't watched the show? >> Well, that would be a weird thing to do. Just be like come and. >> No, but you've like seen you you. remember this is great. Yeah. >> Yeah. But [laughter] you know why? Cuz. you teach well. Genuinely cuz you teach. well. It it it it's um it's easy to. consume. It's easy to digest and it's.

engaging. But I remember the funny. moments even with like the Hadron key. >> or when you like when you were showing. the um the quantum computer. I was just. like the size of it, the scale, but the. jokes in between are something that that. I found myself fascinated by. I was. like, why why bring humane to something. that most people go this is this is the. future of mankind. There's no time for. jokes, but you're bringing jokes in. >> I think it's it's also that I'm I'm the. proxy for the audience. Like I know very. little. I know how to tell a great. story. I'm a really really good visual.

storyteller, but I'm not an expert in. anything that I'm talking about. And so. that requires. the secondary character. The topic is. the primary character. My goal learn. about quantum computers. You learn from. a quantum physicist on YouTube. Like why. am I there? The reason I'm there is so. that I'm a proxy for the audience. I'm. like having fun with it like you might. have. I'm asking the questions that you. might ask. I'm I'm there to. recontextualize what the expert is. saying to kind of like translate for.

them a little bit. Like that's the magic. of what we do. Because the the problem. with that first bucket that we talked. about, the the feeling of like, oh, pessimism ends the conversation. Explainers that are too complicated, like they're just not they don't bring. people in. The problem with that is you end up in a. place where I think unfortunately. despite the fact that huge is growing. really quickly like we're we're small. compared to you know mainstream media. >> the um the place that we're in is one.

where like most people hear about the. future when it is has largely been set. up by a smaller number of people. And my. belief is that if you bring people more. into the earlier parts of the. conversation, if you say like we're. we're going to need to learn about. quantum computers now, >> though you're, you know, not actually. interacting with them anytime soon, >> more people at the beginning of that. process is a good thing. More people, to. your point about AI, more people are.

helping to build that system if you show. them what it is at the beginning versus. saying, "Oh, it won't work. Oh, don't. worry about it. Oh, this is not. something that's going to be accepted. not something that people are going to. want. It's not going to be a, you know, maybe it'll change the world, but just. you should be scared of it. >> That posture means that you are less. likely to participate in helping it go, right? And so that's something I think a. lot about like how can I make it fun. enough and good enough and entertaining. enough so that you want to be a part of. it earlier in the process. So like now.

when you go about your day, you. understand something about what we've. discovered about dinosaurs. You. understand something about crisper or. quantum computers or supersonic planes. Like. >> maybe you won't work on those things. tomorrow, but maybe there's some way in. which that is part of your life and you. at least know about these topics and. you're you're having conversations that. are interesting and you're more a part. of it than you would be otherwise. I. believe that having more people. understand complicated issues means that. more people will participate in making. sure that they go right. That's what I'm. trying to do on my show.

>> I like that you say that. I um I was in. uh Washington State and I was at an. event where we're working with Microsoft. on basically like getting AI into. schools like having kids learn, teachers. learn, whatever. And they set up this. this program where the teachers are. advising on it. So they're going this is. what we actually need AI to do. So don't. just don't just give us AI. This is what. we need you to help AI or make AI do for. teachers, you know. So it's lesson. plans, it's helping them mark and grade. and all these.

>> teachers aid. Exactly. Supposed to be. that. >> not a teacher. >> Right. Exactly. And then they were and. then parents also like this is what we. need AI to do. And we're at this launch. event and I'll never forget this moment. One of the student um journalists comes. up and at the end of like all the other. like journalist journalists they've all. asked their questions and then this. student journalist comes up and then. asks the president of Microsoft Brad. Smith goes hey um I see that you've got. this panel convened that's going to be. doing all of this in the schools. Do you. have any students on your panel? That's. an amazing question.

>> And all of us in the room were, you. know, you're like, "Huh?". All of us. And then Brad, to his credit, was like, "No, I didn't think about. that. And why don't we?" And then. literally on the spot was like, "Oh, yeah. We we we got to do this." But to. your point, >> that's awesome. >> Even in that moment, I found myself. going, "Oh, yeah. You you you take for. granted how we are constantly building. futures but not engaging all the people. that the futures are being built for. And then when we get there, we're going. to be like, "How did we miss this?" And. it's like, "Yeah, but did you just ask.

everyone? Did you ask everyone what they. like? Eugene, what do you need from AI? What do you want AI to do for you? Do you know what AI is?" Let me start. with this cuz Eugene is very. >> what AI is. First of all, >> Eugene is my lit. [laughter] Eugene is. fully my lite friend. >> I I always compare everything new with. how things were before there was. technology. So I hear what you're saying. and I hear what he's saying and I. combine it to before there was. technology to disperse information and.

get people into doing something for the. collective good without sometimes. general understanding of it is wars. >> So a few men would decide this is the. greater cause for what we're doing this. >> and then there would be conscription. So. you don't have to understand fully why. we're doing this thing. So we're going. to make you do it. So while you're at. this thing, you might discover some. people might make it, some people might. not. But you look at the ones that came. back from wars and how many industries. were built. It's always been an. accelerant for technology, for ideas,

for industries, for businesses, customizing cars, building technology, weapons, private jets. It's always. because of something huge catastrophic. that happened that included. conscription. And I guess once you add a. little bit of pessimism in there, you. can find a lot of ideas when people push. back because people just usually go with. something. So I like what I like with. explainers is it always starts with have. you ever wondered why? But then you have. to stick around to the end to go what. are you going to do about it? So that.

usually in normal society you have it's. elections. >> You have to wait to choose. >> to almost feel like you have a choice. because you've seen what happened in the. last four years. Did you see, sorry, did. you see that? Did you see that thing in. uh I forget where this is in Canada? I. think they they they they had an. election or they're planning to have one. where everyone can just vote on their. phones from home. >> Yes, like full. >> Yeah, we did an explainer about um. digital voting, mobile voting. Um. >> like full on. >> Turns out it's extremely difficult from.

an encryption perspective. >> Wait, why? So, this was a little while. ago, so I don't want to butcher this too. much, but the question I went into the. story with is why don't we all just vote. on our phones? >> I love this. >> Wouldn't it be great? >> And wouldn't it make uh for a more. participatory democracy? Sounds good, too. >> But I I generally believe more people. voting is good. >> Yes. >> Let's make it easier to vote. >> Love this. I'm in. >> And so I went and I talked. >> I'm not I'm [laughter] I'm not a fan of. of total outright democracy, you know.

>> Maybe we should start there. Well, it. would still be a representative between. the semi dictator representative. [laughter]. >> I'm like, some people don't deserve a. voice. >> Let's come back to that later. >> We should come back to that. [laughter]. >> Oh man. >> As you were. Anyway, [laughter]. >> for the purpose of this. >> Okay. Okay. >> [laughter]. >> So I I went and I asked all of these. encryption experts. And so we talked to.

folks that were working on mobile. voting. We also talked to people that. deeply oppose mobile voting. We should. not do that. That's a really bad idea. And I wanted to understand why. >> My what what it boils down to is um that. voting is not like online banking. >> It is not like the secure things that. you do online. >> Okay. And why is that? >> Couple reasons. The first is that. everything you do online accepts some. level of fraud because the the banks are. basically backstopping a certain amount.

of fraud to make it easy for you to log. in and and do transactions and all those. things. They accept that there will be. some level of. >> acceptable risk. >> of acceptable risk and that level has to. be below the friction that they would. have to put on you to make it less. risky. Okay. So, they just have to mean. like more activity that makes them more. money. >> versus. uh the amount of fraud that they have to. pay for. >> Okay. So, if I if I was to like dumb. this down for myself, it's the. equivalent of like a clothing store.

>> going we'll only put a certain amount of. detectors on the clothing. >> Mhm. >> To make it to buy more. >> Yeah. But we we can't we can't cover the. thing in detectors because then you. won't want to try it on. You won't see. the thing. So we have to accept a. certain amount of risk to have you. comfortable in the buying experience. >> What items in the store are we putting. detectors on? >> Okay, got it. Got it. We do this all the. time. >> Okay, got it. >> We can't accept that in voting because. the the the small amount of risk in. especially in the way that we vote in. the United States with such small.

pockets where it matters a lot. You. can't accept any amount of risk that. way. And also philosophically, we don't. believe that you should. the idea if you. try to explain to people that like we're. going to accept some voter fraud because. more people can vote. >> in America's elections are basically. like 50/50 at this point. So if you have. like like a three 4% that's not good. >> Oh damn. >> So So you can't accept you accept. fantastic in this is fantastic. >> Um it would help more if we had the. visuals. We could have a map. We could. have like a you know system. Yeah.

[laughter]. I guess I do speak English the way that. YOU. >> That was good. >> Um, so that's reason number one. >> Yeah. >> Reason number two is that um. it's just like nothing else on Earth. >> when you have global powers that want to. affect each other's outcomes. Like we. are not talking about stealing. a million dollars, a hundred million. dollars. We're talking about China and.

Russia and the United States trying to. impact each other's elections. This is. like this is stakes like nothing else. that exists at all. And so when you talk. about that, like the way that these. encryption experts talk about mobile. voting, it's like the things that would. have to withstand are like nothing. you've ever experienced online. Like. there's nothing in the world that. matters as much as the outcome of the. elections of the most powerful. countries. It makes absolute sense. because if you think of online versus. physical voting, >> you are more susceptible to whims if you. vote online than you would if you voting.

physically. >> Maybe there's a maybe there's a change. in the way that there's. >> because you might be sitting on your. couch feeling a certain way and then. that might determine how you vote. But. if you have to get up, take a day off, go queue, >> I think that would vote. Now I'm going. to vote worse. >> Yeah, that would be. >> You just don't want me to stay at home. Why you Why are you doing this to me? Also, why are you doing this to me? Now, when I get up, now when I go, I might. change my vote vote on the way there. where I'm like, this is a terrible day. >> about the. >> really terrible day. >> Not after you've My man, have you seen.

the conversation that happens at Q's. when you're about to vote? >> That's another reason I don't want that. cuz now people are talking to each other. about voting. >> Yes. Who should they talk to? >> Nobody. >> Your voters are having a good debate cuz. we're assuming it could work. We're. talking about. >> I I think anything that you're. struggling for will make it worth it. So. if you're standing in a queue in the. snow and you're about to make a decision. around other people who took the same. decision as you to get out there, [laughter] hold on. There's there's. research there's research on the fact. that it's like a community builder.

That's a separate argument. [laughter]. That's a separate separate argument that. I GENERALLY. >> MAKE UP YOUR MIND. WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU. ON? >> HOLD ON. She's not on anybody's side. That's [laughter] what makes her good. She's encouraging discourse. Eugene boo. >> Okay. One more interesting thing about. voting is also um. >> the ways that you would have these. countries hack voting. >> Yeah. >> I didn't really understand what I was. talking about. I was I was thinking like. in like a cyberpunk movie where you like. see you know then then then there would. be a glitch and someone in the US would.

notice the glitch and like there would. be a hack. Right. >> Right. >> A lot of these encryption experts are. like listen the way that they would do. this is like we already know that in. districts if it rains it marginally. affects voting. >> Yeah. for the outcome of older people. and those people are more likely to vote. this way and then all of a sudden. because it rained that one district that. affect this one state that affects the. electoral college that affects this all. of a sudden. And so what they would do, this gave me the heebie-jebies when they. said it. He was like, you could imagine. a foreign power just digitally making it.

rain in just the right places and we. would never notice. cloud CD. >> and I was like like making it like. >> like digitally making it rain like like. um making it um the lag time on the. screen they could make it a little bit. longer and that would mean that fewer. people would vote and you'd never notice. or the the login maybe they would make. it mess up a couple times and that would. affect like older people in particular. like just it just a little little things. on the edges and then you'd have an. outcome that you didn't expect because. >> politics would have very little to do. with that's literally how I keep Eugene. out of my house when I don't [laughter].

want him to visit me. I'll just like. I'll make the lock a little tighter. I'll jam the door a little bit more. >> And he never and he never he has enough. >> And then some days he just doesn't I'll. be like, "YEAH, COME OVER ANYTIME." And. then he'll be there. >> Come in. [laughter]. >> But But you know what? It makes no. sense. >> That is crazy to think about it like. that is like. >> So you go down the way that we did this. episode was you go down this rabbit hole. and you're like, "Okay, what are these. are all brilliant people that I'm. talking to that have thought about this. their whole lives. This these are all. the reasons why you wouldn't want it.".

I'm like, "Okay, but. but you could, right? Like this isn't. I've talked to people who are building. rockets. Like this isn't rocket science. Like you you could do this, right? Like. there's there has to be some." And so. I'm I'm pushing like optimistically like. this could work, right? >> And so then you get into the the area of. science that's a little bit more boring. and I won't talk tell you all about it, but like how would they do it? What are. the encryption strategies? There are. people that are working on this that. could do it in a way that you would. notice the the digital rain. like. there's there's real effort here and.

there are experiments as you said there. are countries that are experimenting. with it. There are places where they're. trying to make this easier. Um. >> and I think I mean the episode ends with. like it's worth the effort to try. Like. here are all of the reasons why it's way. harder than you think. And it's not just. like oh I bank online. I should vote. online. >> But we believe that more people voting. is a good thing. You could be part of a. future that allows that to happen. Like. here are all the smart people working on. this hard problem. And so you don't end. the story with, "Oh, it's way harder. than you think." You end the story with,

"Oh, here are all the smart solutions. It's ongoing. If you want to. participate, you absolutely should.". Don't go anywhere cuz we got more what. now after this. This episode is brought to you by our. friends at Survey Monkey. You know, Eugene, I don't know if you've ever. thought of starting a business, but. every time I think about people who. start businesses, I'm like, man, you. need a specific kind of bravery. And by. bravery, I mean terrifying uncertainty. Because think about it right now,

everywhere in the world, there are. people making massive lifealtering. decisions based entirely on a vibe, just. a feeling in their gut. >> That was me when joining the podcast. >> You know what I mean? >> But what if you actually knew the truth. when you started a business? What if you. knew your direct reports weren't just. nodding along, but actually had thoughts. that they were too polite to tell you? >> Or what if you knew that your best. customers were already halfway out the. door to a competitor? Because let's face. it, we like to say follow your heart, but in business, ignorance is a very. expensive hobby. The good news, Eugene,

is that Survey Monkey takes the fear out. of asking and the doubt out of deciding. It's the difference between walking into. a meeting with a hunch and walking in. with 500 validated opinions, which. mathematically is better for your blood. pressure. The truth might hurt for a. second, but it's cheaper than being. wrong. So, let's get you a survey and. some actual answers. Sign up for an. annual plan at surveymonkey.com/wattnow. and use the code whatnow for 2 months. free. That's 2 months free with code. whatnow at surveymonkey.com/w.

whatnow. You have any questions? >> Is it too late for me to run a survey. about who doesn't like you in the. podcast? >> What do you mean who doesn't like you? Like like me. Like you. Yes. Specifically the person in front of me. >> I think surveys are supposed to be. anonymous so that people's feelings. don't get hurt. >> But I did type anonymous there. Well, I. mean, now I'll know that you typed it. because do do you have a problem with. the working condition? >> I haven't sent it, >> but you want to make a survey about. >> I haven't sent it. >> yet. You can just use the code what now. to get two months free when you do.

[music] it. Still have two months to. complain about you. I feel like this got. personal. [music]. You know what I just realized? You must. be both the most fun and irritating. person at a party. [laughter]. >> That's why she comes in early and uh. comes in early and leaves early. Exactly. >> No, no. You know why? Cuz this is what. this is what I was thinking. >> People love People love speaking to.

other people who know things. >> They love it. >> Until those people actually know things. >> That's what I've learned. >> No, but I don't know anything. >> No, no, no. But you do. You see, you do. Cuz let's say we were at a party now. We. all standing around with our drinks, right? And we're all having this. conversation. We all Yeah. Yeah. So, so. how do you know Eugene? [laughter]. Yeah. Then I'm like, you know, the. election, I think they should vote. So, in Canada, they're going to they're. going to do the digital voting. Then you. go like, oh yeah, actually they did they. did a thing on the then we're like, no,

but the thing and then you encryption, encryption, encryption, encryption, encryption, facts, facts, [laughter]. facts, facts, facts, data experts spoken. to, etc. And then someone would be like, "I'm going to go um I'm going to go get. I out of [laughter] context. >> I'm going to go get another drink. >> I promise. I know [laughter] is what. >> No, I wouldn't. If I were you, I'd keep. doing it. I'm just saying because we. live in a world where, let's be honest, we live in a world where what you said. earlier really struck me. You said, "I'm. not an expert. I don't know anything.".

And I go that's a strange level of. humility for you to approach this this. sphere with because. >> you do know things because you've. learned on it from the experts. And I. always go like knowledge is is from. someone you know what I mean? There's. very few people who make original. knowledge alone. >> Everyone takes from somewhere takes from. somewhere takes from the expert. And. then when you read, even if you read. those like textbooks, I love, you know, when you go down to the footnotes and. they're like, "Oh yeah, this guy said. that part and that person said that and. she said that and that person and that. person and from who?

>> You're always taking me into weird. words.". >> Highly intelligent extraterrestrial. beings called the Anunnaki. >> Oh, I don't even know what that is. >> Yeah. Anyway, >> oh wait, let's talk about aliens. Actually, Eugene is a huge fan of. aliens. >> I am alien. Have you have you discovered. anything? >> Like. >> Apparently, we're close to making first. contact in the next 2 years. >> You see, I love it. Now we're at the. party. He's just said that. >> Yeah. So, there's a guy. >> first first have your drink and say it. I think it it sets the scene. >> We're at a party.

>> Hey. Um, >> so aliens. [laughter]. >> So, there's an extraterrestrial. uh being that comes through a guy called. DARYL ANKER. [laughter]. DON'T YOU JUST hate it when your. pessimistic friend is a DJ? [laughter]. >> We shouldn't have put him in charge of. the music. >> You were saying.

[laughter]. I encouraged him to start mixing. [laughter]. >> Now look at me. So there's this being that comes through. him. It's been doing this for the last. 20 30 years. It's called Basha. So Basha. a couple of years ago. >> Are you ready for a Eugene explainer? By. the way, >> wait, I'm sorry. Are we talking about. like. >> Daryl Anka? >> The real world. >> channels Bashar. [laughter]. >> See, guys, am I the only one who knows about.

Bashar and Spirit Box at the same time? >> So explain the Eugene, please. This is. this is one of Eugene's favorite YouTube. channels. >> Yes. So, is this like a like. >> spirit box and basha? Two different. things, but we'll go into spirit box. later. >> And are they is this [laughter] like. >> I'll ask I'll ask this the way that my. 5-year-old niece would add this. Like, is this the pretend world or is this the. real world? >> Okay. >> But with some level of pretend I'm going. to pull this up in the meantime while he. describes it, then I'm going to play it. for you. >> So, Bashar has been I mean I mean Daryl. Anka has been channeling this being from.

another planet psychically called. Bashar, right? So Daryl does this and. then Bashar 5 years ago predicted that. in the next coming years we're going to. start seeing things that we can't. explain in the sky. So those are. different levels of aliens that will. start making contact. And then two years. ago, a year ago, we started seeing. drones that people couldn't explain, governments couldn't explain, um. phenomena that was happening globally at. the same time that people couldn't. explain. And then he said, "Two years. from now, we're going to start seeing. more contact, human contact with.

aliens." And I believe it. I was going. to go a different route with this. >> Tell me. >> But. >> wait, wait. Before you do, I'll I'll. play you I'll play you a This is a a I. guess John Bernet Ramsay Spirit. >> I'm pretty sure when we were talking. >> No, Spirit Box and and and Bashar. So, start with Bashar. Spirit box is. something else. >> Oh, I don't I don't know. >> I only remember Spirit Box cuz it like. made my life. >> Say Bashar. >> Okay, hold on. Hold on. >> But then you. >> are we sure we should be giving this. more air time, Trevor? >> We can just We can just We can just.

bleep them all. Remember when you. worried about your your your digital. diet? >> Actually, wait. No. [laughter]. >> So now let me let me ask you as as. somebody who loves science, who explores. who go how do you delve into a topic. like this? This is a good moment. So. let's say we were in the office now. Eugene had just pitched you. >> Well, we did this. >> because it's huge if it's true. If. somebody can show is called huge if. true. if somebody can speak across like. dimensions to aliens and. >> and also I mean I think the thing that I. really like to do when I hear things.

that. >> with all due respect may or may not be. true. >> is uh you take that and you say okay. what are people interested in here and. how can I show you the way in which the. science that I'm confident is is at. least going through the scientific. process is um. >> more interesting for the reasons you are. interested in this than a sort of. fictional world ever could be. So for. example, people are really interested in. the Large Hydron Collider at CERN. There. are a lot of conspiracy theories about.

it. >> The real large. >> What's the conspiracy theories? >> Oh, they think it's like going to tear a. hole in the universe. They think it's. there's a lot of like. >> create a black hole, >> devil worship kind of thing. Yeah. The. sort of pseudocientific, but also like. much more spiritual as well that this is. wrong somehow that we shouldn't be. playing God. There's like a lot of like. centralizing. >> Stargate kind of stuff, opening a portal. for things to come in. >> Yeah. and like all that. Um, >> also like there have been a couple of. instances in which like people have. played into this. Like there were a. couple students who pulled a prank where. they were like dressed up a certain way.

and like did a sort of chanting. >> Oh man, it never helps. You see, when. >> that wasn't ideal, but it got a lot of. headlines. [laughter]. >> I'm deep into conspiracy. So whenever. whenever we like PhD or something. >> and a bunch of PhD PhD students play a. prank and that plank prank becomes more. famous than the original conspiracy and. then it rubs out that conspiracy. cover. >> I think those are agent provocators. >> Maybe. I don't know. I have no idea. >> You'd like this. Actually, you you might. appreciate this. I I remember having a. conversation with someone who was pretty. high up. He used to be at the CIA.

>> and I said to him, I was like, "Yo, conspiracy theories, like, are these. people real? Are they on to something?". And he said something that will stick. with me forever. He said, "At the CIA, we we laugh at conspiracy theorists and. all that, but he said, "But we're also. glad that they are as crazy as they are. because of how many times they are, right?". >> And can I tell you that changed my. perspective cuz I'm he's a conspiracy. theorist. I'm not like, I'm genuinely. not. >> But it changed my perspective. >> forever because I was like, "Oh,

>> we assume a conspiracy theorist is. always wrong.". >> Yeah. >> We assume they're always wrong. Mhm. >> And then what he basically said to me. was, "No, no, no. Sometimes they're. right, but the stuff that they're wrong. on is so often and so crazy that it. covers the things that they did get and. then we just get to that's why they'll. never like confirm nor deny anything. >> because it just it stacks on itself.". >> And I think in the last couple of years, they've tried to do to dispel the myth. that most CIA agents are white and also.

that um what they're doing is unethical. because you've seen there's a there was. a huge in there was this one guy who was. famous with an afro. >> um who used to be on all podcasts and. you'll be you'll be talking about guys. really do you think do you really I'm. here they hired me with an afro and I'm. black do you really think they're that. bad then everyone was like yeah are they. that bad but people who've been affected. by spies and CIA agents and people. who've done things were like they didn't. look like you. >> so there is always like I certain.

believe when there's protests when. there's um. >> oh but that's been proved there's always. been an agent provocate who's just. person credible enough to dispel what is. really going on. >> I mean I think there's there's a lot to. >> provide. [laughter]. contact and a denial. >> I'm not Eugene's easy to to please. [laughter]. >> Are you a spy? >> No. We're good. We're good. We're good. We're good. >> I try and think about it like what is.

the core interest here? Like so for. example, I um. >> I love the idea that I might be alive. when we make first contact. Like the. idea that there are aliens out there, especially intelligent aliens. >> I'm taking supplements for that reason. >> You want to be alive for longer to be. >> not for my daughter to graduate. university. >> to see when we may totally or even I. mean I would be. >> lion's mane. I'm in. >> I would be excited about like bacteria. on another planet. >> I'm sorry. Just.

>> I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. >> I'm I'm really sorry. >> This guy just said, "Wait, I'm sorry. This man just said that's why I'm taking. cuz now I pictured the aliens coming. down to Earth, making first contact with. you specifically, going back to the. mother ship, [laughter] and then they go. like, "Have you met them?" And it's. like, "Yes, I've made contact full of. magnesium and [laughter] high high. levels of lion's mane mushrooms. Is this. all of? Yes, I think they are 50%. mushroom [laughter] and 50% human. Are.

you sure? I'm pretty sure. I I scanned. him. I'm pretty sure. >> And why is PE orange. ashwagandha? [laughter] Lot of. ashwagandha in these species. I'm sorry. Sorry. So, you were going. >> I THOUGHT I WAS BAD. LOOK. >> NO, NO, NO. [laughter] But you He said I. take supplements hoping for that day. >> We never think of which. Do you know how. important it is? >> I just nodded and smiled. Yes, but you. know how important it is to think about. which human will be our first contact.

We never think about that. >> Wow. >> Because if the aliens do get here and. then they meet who they meet first. >> Oh, but I think they're going to be like. looking at us from afar and seeing that. there's nitrogen in our atmosphere. >> David us. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think they're. What do you mean they are going to? They. have been. >> I think there's so many Well, okay. So, to get back to conspiracy theories, I. promise. Um the thing that I am most. interested in is what people are. interested in. So for example, the idea. that people we we as humans feel this.

kind of. loneliness. >> inter like with each other and also. cosmically that I think is really. beautiful somehow like we're we're we're. so used to reaching out to each other. that we we understand that the world is. big, the universe is. >> unthinkably enormous and we we we reach. out and we really want that. And so I. think that is beautiful and interesting. And I when I tell stories, I I want to. make a video. I just made an episode all. about what would happen if an asteroid. were about to hit Earth and how we would.

figure out how to solve that problem. There are real solutions to that which. are fascinating, but I want to do. another version of that where I imagine. like what is the most realistic case. where we might encounter aliens? Is it. that on the moons of Europa we're going. to is it that on Europa we're going to. find, you know, bacteria in an ocean. somewhere? Is it that we're going to. look at a star system, you know, hundreds of light years away and see. that there's a an atmosphere there that. we think looks like ours because it has. life? Like what would the realistic.

scenarios be? And then you create a sort. of I'm really into the idea right now of. mixing science fiction with the. explainer stories that we're doing. because I do think that science fiction, if you are very clear, again with the. voicing with Mark Robber, if you're very. clear about what's fiction and what's. fact, >> you can play out a situation. An. asteroid is coming for Earth. Okay. Now, what are the real what is the real. science and technology that we would use. in that situation? So, in. [clears throat] this case, okay, imagine. the realistic scenarios in which we. might actually encounter life in off.

Earth. What would happen next? What. would we do if we encountered some, you. know, light? How would we verify that? Would we send a probe? It's going to. take aundred years to get there. If it's. 100, it's going to take much, much more. than that, actually. >> Um, >> how would we verify that? And so you you. play this out and you you accept what. people find interesting and what the. seed is and then you try and show them. the science and the technology that. you're convinced is real through the. scientific method but that gets at this. this thing that they are excited about.

So another example is um it's. >> the same as the 1902 article. >> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You try and you try. and do that in in an optimistic way so. people can see like okay if the plane. were to fly what would that mean? Okay. If we were to find aliens what would. that what would that look like? What is. the real science and tech there? Same. thing. I guess what I'm doing is sort of. >> the 1902 first article was 1903 or 1902. >> 1903 for the 193right brothers was 1903. >> I'm pretty sure. Yeah. >> Okay. 1903. I don't know. I'm just I'm. just making sure I remember it.

correctly. And so you can do that over. and over again with all of these. different. >> these different interests. I don't even. want to call them conspiracy theories. It's just like, okay, you're interested. in CERN. You're interested in the fact. that we're smashing particles together. Let me tell you the real science and. tech. >> No, can I tell you smashing? >> Smashing protons. [laughter]. >> The real thing that we're doing under. >> particle smashing Eugene. >> Only Eugene could make science sex. >> You see those particles smashing? >> More combative. But now I get it. >> What did the one Hedron collider.

[laughter] say to the other Hedron. collider? So, did you smash? Hey, there's a scientist out there who's. loving that. He's like, yeah. [laughter]. Um, I I just realized you that's a. superpower that you have. >> that is not just in short supply. I I I. I can't think of many people I've met. who who have this ability. >> You spend very little to no time. focusing on.

the definitive place that people find. their imaginations at. and instead you encourage the. possibilities of where that imagination. could lead. So like you you just did it. now, right? Eugene goes, I believe the. aliens and they they speak like this and. they're doing this and I'm going like I. don't believe in this. I believe it's. part but I don't believe in this and we. roll like that. We're friends and I. always say what I love about that is. like I don't think people have enough. friendships where their friend has a. thing. Like Eugene treats my views on.

soccer like I treat his views on aliens. Do you know what I mean? So when I'm. like ah that game he's like what game? There was no this is all like you know. what I mean? But we have fun with it. We. genuinely do. >> But what you do is is is more. interesting is like you don't sit in the. is it right? Is it wrong? Is it real? Is. it not? Is it no? You go huh. >> how would we? >> What would we? Where would we? It it it. like encourages this jour. It encourages. a journey. >> Yeah. Everyone involved. Do you know. what I mean? Like the energy is there.

the desire to learn and the desire to do. research. >> But I think most people don't treat. people like that. Like. >> I I tried to explain this to somebody. once. I I genuinely did not have the. eloquence nor the compassion that I. think you have when when engaging in the. topics. But I remember saying this. around like parents with vaccines, you. know, and I remember I think on one of. our episodes we talked to maybe Dr. Becky about it and. >> I was saying. a lot of parents are antivaccine, right? And we we live in a world now for the.

most part where people go pro-. anti-fight. >> How can you not? How can you? And that's. it. It's as simple as that. And there's. very few people who who will take a. moment to go, >> well, somebody who is antivaccine has. actually spent a lot of time on their. own googling and reading. And that's. almost why they've become antivaccine is. because they've gone out of their way to. consume copious amounts of information. that have led them down a certain path. Now whether the information is valid or. not is a separate discussion. >> But it means that they have a hunger and.

they have an interest in the topic. >> that has now brought them to that place. >> Can you offer more that allows them to. do that thing that they do in a in a. direction that that has more for them to. do it too? There's more information over. here. You could you could be more. excited about all of the many different. research papers that are coming out. every day. Like here's here's a place to. start. Like here's here's some. interesting information. And I also. think like the. the thing that gets me really excited is.

that the world is. very strange and very exciting and very. and full of things. >> to learn and to get excited about. And. so I [clears throat] I view my job as to. create a a menu of journalistically. rigorous, genuinely beautiful, deep. explainers that might excite someone to. go down all of these different paths. >> Have any of them been wrong in any way? >> I mean, we issue corrections when we get. things wrong. There have been there.

haven't been any ma major stories where. the underlying point of the story has. been [clears throat] wrong. And I we. work really really hard to make sure. that that's not the case. if it ever is, we would do a big correction on that. So. far, it hasn't happened. Um, but every. once in a while, we we'll need to do a. correction on the on a fact. So, you you. can um YouTube has a really great UX. where you can put the time code and then. a colon and correction user experience. >> experience. Okay. >> So, there's a a feature on YouTube where. you can say the time code and then say.

correction and put whatever you want. people to understand that is different. than the fact that you said. I do this. sometimes if I say like if I um an. example would be uh I use the wrong um. we do everything in in metric but I have. an American audience as well. So if the. if a um. >> translation is incorrect I would put the. correct one or something like things. that are sometimes they're they're more. deep than that a we had a cave that we. said was in one country but it's. actually in another. You put the. correction and this is I mean this is.

basic journalistic practice. this is. what you want, you know, if you're. telling a story. >> But I mean, >> you say that, >> but we live in a world where our. journalist that isn't a Why why. journalism, by the way? I mean, if if. both parents were in law, why why did. you pick journalism? >> Well, I began working at Vox on the. business side. Actually, I was really. excited. I had no experience as a. journalist and I was really excited. about the idea that I could help. facilitate the storytelling that I was. so excited about. Um, >> sorry to interrupt you there. Like,

>> are you ever not excited? >> No, you you like you strike me as a very. positive, optimistic, excited. Like, >> I understand making videos about. asteroids hitting the earth and like. explaining the world. Excited. I'm with. you completely. >> Law death penalty. Excited. You just. said I was going to go work in the. business division, business affairs, and. I was excited. And your eyes told me. that you. >> looked excited. >> Yeah. >> Is there anything where you go like like. boring? Like is there anything or or.

have you always had this as a as a as a. filter on the world? >> I think I was so incredibly lucky that. somehow. I I I don't think it's innate. I think I. was taught this somehow along the way. that there's nothing I'm actually I'm. doing an episode right now. I'll spoil. it. When when does this come out? >> Whenever it needs to come out. >> Um I don't know. This is not the kind of. thing that is like a big spoiler. We're. working on an episode for the Olympics. It'll come out during the Olympics. Okay. And we're focusing on curling the. sport. >> The sport.

big wheel of cheese. >> I'm obsessed with curling. I think. curling is just the most fas from a. physics perspective. The ice is amazing. There are all kinds of applications of. the way that it's the curling stone. spins. That might in an interesting way. help. When I talk about you criticize. me. [laughter]. >> No, I promise. >> Uhhuh. Eugene, you're talking about a. grand. wheel of cheese. >> Eugene, >> let's be clear. I've never criticized. you. I've only mocked you. There's a. difference. >> Um I is where in the X UX can I put this.

correction? [laughter]. >> Do you want some? >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> So yes, you're fascinated by curling and. you said how it might help us solve. >> So the physics there's a a physics. mystery in curling which is Oh man, I I. got to explain this now. So [laughter]. >> Oh, this is this is your life. >> No, no, no, no, no. This is the thing. that nobody [laughter] WOULD UNDERSTAND. >> NO, THROW IT. I'll explain this. One. second. I need a I need a prop. >> You need a sip? Yes.

>> Okay. No, she needs a prop. She's going. to. >> Oh, a prop. So, you Okay. >> Okay. >> You're the life. >> That would be really fun if we were. >> Yeah. If that [laughter] was If we were. at a party now, you'd be like, "All. right.". >> Okay. So, the the mystery in curling is. um usually if I have this and I spin it. um. >> I don't know if you saw that, but it I. was spinning it in this direction. >> and it moved that way. Okay. Does that. make. >> sense? So, it counts as good. [clears throat]. >> Yes. >> Uh, in curling, that's not what happens. I can't demonstrate it with this right.

now, but uh, if you're if you're with a. curling stone, which has a very specific. like bottom, >> and you you spin it on the ice, if you. watch Olympic curling, it will spin this. direction, right? That's the same as. what I spin, >> and it will move this way. >> And that has been confusing physicists. for a hundred years. >> Wh why why why is the other one normally. happening? Is centrifugal force? What. What is happening? something about so. the reason why the reason why that. happens so I spun that way it moved that. way I think I did it a little bit let's. see if I can do it going straight really.

trying to make it work. >> yeah so it moved that way I spun it that. way. >> okay. >> the reason why that happens is something. to do with friction on the front and it. like I I I don't totally understand why. it happens but it basically happens with. everything. >> so if you um the physics of this spin. and the friction of forward motion means. that should move that way. But on ice. with a curling stone, it goes it it goes. the opposite direction than you would. expect. >> because there's no friction.

>> So we don't totally understand why. So. this has been confusing physicists. There are a lot of genuine research. papers written about this. This has been. confusing physicists for like a hundred. years. And there's a lot of very. reasonable uh uh reason. If you if you. ask why and [snorts] you look at the. papers, there are a bunch of reasons. that they give. Some there's there's one. uh theory that has to do with the. friction on the front. uh of a curling stone is different than. if it's on this because the ice is. melting slightly as the friction moves. across. So there's something to change. about the friction. >> Like is it that the is it that the water.

and the ice are like doing two opposite. things and then there's like a layer. between them or. >> it I I couldn't repeat me into being. interested in curling. So this. >> now I'm going to be watching the. Olympics watching curling trying to. figure out why the stone spins the way. it does. >> This is exactly my point. >> And what material is this stone? Granite. >> A really special granite. It comes from. one island. Every single Olympic curling. stone comes from the same island. >> What island? >> Uh it's called. >> You can just say any island and we'll. throw in a correction. We should just do. that for fun. [gasps and laughter] Just. Just to show people how it works.

>> So the specific island it's called. >> I'm not going to remember this. I'm not. going to imagine. >> Just say an island. Just say an island. The island of stone stone. >> Alisa Craig. Thank you so much. the old guy at the party. [laughter]. >> I'm a facts man. >> But see, every single stone comes from. that one island. Okay, here's my point. >> And every single boring person comes. from that island, too. [laughter] Thanks.

for the facts, facts, guy. We were. having so much fun here guessing. >> They were going to make me make up an. island. So, thank you. [laughter]. >> Oh, man. >> Um, here's my point with this. >> The island of Bashar. And then we would. have put the correction. It would have. been perfect. Sorry, Eugene. Sorry. It's. okay. >> My point is that curling is a sport. where if you read the YouTube comments. and most videos about curling or if you. look at the way that people cover. curling, especially on television during. the Olympics, >> they make a lot of fun of it. They they.

they talk a lot about like how did this. become an Olympic sport? Like oh, you. know, why are we like it's it's sort of. a a joke. It becomes a a joke. First, I. think curling is amazing and I think the. curling athletes are amazing. So, I I. think that shouldn't be the case in the. first place. an athlete. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Oh, I tried. curling at the curling Olympic trials. I. tried it. It's insanely hard. >> Wait, what makes it hard? What's hard. about it? Knowing that your friends. might see you doing it. >> No, the balance of doing it. >> You know, you know which side of this we. are, man. YOU KNOW WHICH SIDE OF THIS WE. ARE, MAN. COME ON, BABY. COME ON, BABY.

[laughter] MAN, YOU KNOW, you know, >> I'm so jealous of that line. >> Come on, YOU KNOW WHICH SIDE OF THIS WE. ARE, BABY. >> I've never heard you use voice. [laughter] before. Don't be out here acting like you don't. know which side of curling we are. [laughter]. >> This is my point you guys which is. >> Cleo was trying to trick us into acting. like curling is not funny. Some people. think it's funny. We are those people. [laughter]. You don't have to go far. There are some. people who think it's We are those. people. YOU HAVE FOUND US.

>> I AM GOING TO MAKE THE case [laughter]. for this. I am such a big CURLING FAN. I. AM going to make this case. My point. >> Okay. Sorry. Sorry. [clears throat]. My point is that it is lame to be the. cynic who looks at curling and thinks, "Oh, it's funny. It's not interesting.". >> Not you guys. But. >> damn, >> it's lame. It is much. >> It is much more interesting and it makes. your life better to be the person that. goes, "Why does it work that way? Why is.

that?" Turns out there's a crazy physics. mystery and and a stone island and a. relationship to how we're going to. discover aliens. by the way because we. need to understand we don't need to. understand physics of curling but it. relates to the way in which we're going. to explore islands where or um it. relates to the way that we're going to. explore planets with ice and oceans. underneath. So we need there there's. [music] a whole physics of the way that. ice rubs against other things and you. need to understand that if you're going.

to drill into PL it's just my point is. that there's an endless amount of. interesting things to know. >> when you don't stop at oh that looks a. little funny. >> Yeah. >> There's there or it's boring. >> It's funny you just made but you also. just made me realize that comedy does. the exact opposite of what you're saying. >> but it's all about assumption. >> Mhm. You know what I mean? >> Say that your comedy makes me think more. about the everyday things. >> You're very you're very kind, but I. think like when I think of like most if.

you if you think of some of the crazier. jokes that we'll tell as comedians, >> fundamentally what we're doing is the. seed is the same. It it it's all it's. all born in curiosity and being. inquisitive. However, the conclusion is. necessary. Like the the assumption of. the conclusion is necessary. Otherwise, it isn't. Um, one of the first ones. where where I knew this was um Jerry. Seinfeld, one of his his most famous. jokes was about um expiration date on. milk. >> Mhm. >> And he was like, "How do they know? How. do they know when you milk the cow?".

It's like, you know, they've got the. date and like and he had this really. amazing bit about like he's like, "Are. they milking the cow?" And the and then. the the farmer leans in and then the. cow's like, "Yo, yo, January 7th or you. know what I mean?" Very funny bit. >> I never I never laughed at it. never. found it funny. >> because I knew before I saw the joke how. they have the expiry date and it's just. a number of days after it comes out of. the cow. >> Mhm. >> And so I learned in that moment that a. lot of comedy relies on you not knowing. >> the fact. >> being curious but don't pull out a. phone. Don't don't do the research.

Don't just be like how do they and then. you've got to go on your own journey and. figure it out. >> and god forbid you figure out the truth. It's just like. >> the joke is finished. >> Yeah. the joke just like it like. >> such a CIA thing to say. >> Yeah. I don't know. I think a lot of. what you've been doing with your comedy. is like. you do explain like you land. you land an explainer after a funny. journey. >> if it's if it's a real story. I mean you. and I are similar in that way. if it's. like a real thing. I'm not gonna try and.

make it not but there are moments where. you go. >> what is the like one of my favorite. jokes of myself you know every comedian. has their own favorites is one of mine. was like the origins of the the Ku Klux. Clan. >> and I was like where did they get the. name the KKK. >> right because then I looked into it then. it's like it was the joke was something. about like how the origins were they. they got it from the Greek brotherhood. was Kuclos Alfon was the original name. right Kuclos Alfon Kuclo clan is how. they got the name Kuclos clan Mhm.

>> Right. But then I was like, but then. it's it's not it's not Klux Clan. It's. not supposed to be KKK. It was supposed. to be like Yeah. It was supposed to be. like KKC and then it was supposed to be. a whole thing. And then I played with it. and I took you down the origins of it. But it was crazy stuff. And then I ended. up on KFC and I was like that's the. original. That's supposed to be the name. of the of the KKK is the KFC. But then. they they were like we can't do that. Then I was like cuz black people would. love them. And then. >> who told you they couldn't do it? I. thought you going to say who told them. that [laughter] we love him. Yo, you.

were so close. >> You were so close. >> That's why I'm not a comic. [gasps]. >> And then I ended it by saying, "But I. guess everyone wins because I'm sure the. KFC has been responsible for the deaths. of way more black people than the KKK.". >> Ah, my man, we're trying to get sponsors. on this thing. [laughter]. AREN'T YOU TIRED of struggling? Oh my god. [laughter] Aren't I too. tired?

>> Oh man, we're walking home after this. Thanks to you. [laughter]. >> Amazing. >> I'm going to go get another water. You. see what happens with no fire? >> Actually, I need more. Can we Can I get. water for [laughter]. >> She chugged it. >> for the sake of science. >> She chugged it for the sake of science. to show us something. >> Oh, it's it's right behind you in the. credenza. >> It's in the credenza. The credenza. >> in the credenza. >> and a credenza is something else. Credenza is a problem.

>> Credenza, >> a thank you. So, thank you. >> No, thank you. I'm fine. Thank you. You. need all of it. >> Yeah, you. >> all of it. >> No, no, no. But. >> like how Cleo put the water on turbo. She was like, [laughter]. >> "Oh, so I like but but I think the the. look the seed of it in the essence is. fundamentally the same and that is. curiosity. Once we stop being curious, we stop growing. Like we stagnate. We. don't we don't try and make the plane. We don't try and make the rocket ship. We don't try and make the headron.

collider. We don't try and make the. internet. We don't try. >> All of that requires curiosity. You know. what I mean? And and I've always I know. I've said this to you before, but I go. people forget. that the only way you can invent. something is to imagine it first. >> But it can't exist. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? You have to. imagine it. And then. >> what can exist is someone's imagination. >> Yeah. Someone just went like, "Imagine. if and then now we treat that as like a. helicopter. We just treat as a normal. thing." Of course, a helicopter works. >> Yo, helicopter. Have you explained. helicopters? Cuz those things are crazy.

>> It's actually incredibly difficult to. explain. >> Those things are the physics of a. helicopter is very very hard. >> Those things should not be in the air. >> Didn't Da Vinci draw the first. helicopter? >> Yeah, but even his was more normal. >> Really? That's awesome. >> His one was better. Yeah, it was that it. had that spiraly thing. His one was. better than what they Yeah. what they. made today. >> This is so fun. like this is what we're. trying to do and all those things that. will come next [laughter]. >> that do and. >> have you wait have you explained so are. there anything you've tried to explain. or gone into that has left you with more.

questions than answers. >> oh most things I think yeah because. because imagine so you start out with. something and you're like um. take the CERN episode for example. >> so you start out and you are curious. about why there is a 17mm. loop underground. >> Yeah. >> In Switzerland and France and it runs. underneath all of these farms and houses. and it's just this like massive tube. with a vacuum in it and down the tube.

they're firing protons in opposite. directions and then when the protons are. going nearly at the speed of light they. smash them together in one of these. massive detectors. >> Like why are they doing that? Why did. they choose to build that? Why are they. doing it there? Why are they why I don't. think I don't know. Okay. Maybe. >> Okay. [laughter]. >> Okay. Until someone comes up with a. >> with a better catalyst. >> I think it was just international. collaboration. I don't know. I genuinely. don't know. And and so you have all. these questions and. >> and so you begin to answer them. You you.

ask, for example, why do we want to. smash protons together? And it's like, well, >> the the energies that you can get create. different kinds of particles that we. think were around at the beginning of. the universe. So, it's teaching us. things about the beginning of the. universe. It is also proving the. existence. >> Just to confirm, is it the beginning of. like our universe or all universes which. which I I never no I've never known. >> I don't know that much about. >> cuz it's our universe. >> theory. The thing is the universe. totality. Yeah. But I'm saying are they.

cuz I I don't know. I only thought of. this now while you were saying it. I was. like. >> cuz Tina know there's more universe. >> I think the question you're asking is is. the theory about multiverses. Do they. all begin at the big. >> That's what I'm asking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying is it all universes or. just the our universe? >> All. >> all universes from one big bang. >> One big bang. >> Huh. >> I mean, he said it with such confidence. >> He really did. And this is how he wins. all our arguments cuz now I'm I He beat. me. >> I I genuinely don't know. Maybe. >> Yeah. I I think it's about all universe. cuz you must remember up until recently.

we thought the universe was our planet. >> Yes, that's true. >> That's what we thought, right? But you. can see in pop culture starting to pop. up the theory of of quantum jumping. um. the the theory of the multiverse and. they're all interlin because you look at. >> hey popular movies that show Doctor. Strange going from one port to the other. you like they're explaining that but the. theory of. >> whatever you're going through now. there's another version of you that. didn't choose to do the thing that. you're doing now. >> Yeah. >> Oh this is a really good episode idea. I. haven't done much on like multiveres. I. I'm.

a really good story. So I I think when. when the cat theory as well. >> people like observing photons and atoms. because there's this theory that if. you're observing it it changes but if. you're not looking at it but it's like. mostly with anything but you think of. yourself in your apartment or your. house. If you're in the living room you. don't know what's going on in the. bedroom. But somehow your curiosity cuz. we always think of curiosity as. grandiose. Something has to be invented. and you have to have some show for it. But it sometimes happens to you when. you're sitting in your living room and.

you go, I wonder what's going on in the. bedroom and you meander in there and. then you go everything as I left it. Then you go back to where you're from. So I think answering those questions of. why there's an a loop underground. smashing protons. There's a few guys who. are really interested in finding out. why, but the impact of it will. reverberate towards everything that. we're doing currently. >> Absolutely. And when. >> it's like a cell phone signal, we didn't. care until we cared. And when I look. into those stories and I I wonder why. did a couple hundred scientists build. something like this? What what is the.

purpose? And then girlfriend why do they. [laughter]. >> there's some there some people. scientists do [snorts]. >> um and then why do they want to build. >> stop you? [laughter]. >> You're going to wear white a white coat. and do what? No, we're going to. Switzerland. [laughter]. There's a loop and then then there's a. torch. My other friend is gonna be. [laughter] firing that punch from and. then. and then. >> but like here's a question. >> No science. >> Here's a question that I had when I was. going into this story. How do they make.

them hit each other? >> Yeah, that one that one blew my mind. >> How do they make them hit each other? That's a that's a good So then you you. keep going and every question begets. like 10 more questions and everyone it's. like a fractal says oh out and out and. out. >> But you know what's funny is most people. who do this become pessimistic. >> Really? >> Yeah. I I find most people or many. people who go whatever but but but then. but then then they go into like a spiral. of but then but then nothing. >> no they go they they start they they.

start off curious. >> and they can lean towards pessimism or. helplessness. Yeah, that's what I mean. >> Which comes back to. >> that's what that's exactly what I mean. trying to avoid. >> Whereas you you find so maybe that would. be a great thing to to help I mean cuz I. think it would be great for everyone to. have that feeling and that. >> and that framework for life. What is it about the endless possibility. of questions. >> that leaves you feeling fulfilled as. opposed to debilitatingly.

unknowing? You know, there's this feeling of. awe when you look at something that you. already know is spectacular. Like you go. and you look at I've never seen this, but this is what I imagine the feeling. of looking at um like. the aurora, like the northern lights or. um. >> Yeah. Or like um. >> apparently better on your phone.

>> Is it really? I just I've just heard. this. >> Well, you sound like a Debbie. >> Downer. No, I'm I'm just from the. guides. They say they say when you're. there. >> Yeah. >> Okay. What's something that fills you. with a sense of. >> No, no. I just wanted to let you guys. know that it's beautiful on your phone. when you're there because you should do. something on this. >> about why it like filters. >> Apparently, your phone and again, [clears throat] I'm only working on what. I've heard from people who've gone there. and they've said that your guide even is. like cuz you know some people like your. voice will come all of a sudden. >> Don't pull out cuz it's the nighttime. sky.

You want me to be shouting feeling awe? >> Yeah, we're there and they say pull out. your phone and it looks better on the. phone. You should check. >> Think about that feeling that you have. though when you look at something that. you know is astonishing. Actually, it's. even better for this story when you're. looking at something that humans built. That's astonishing. >> Yeah. >> I have that feeling like my show allows. me to have that feeling a lot. >> Humans. >> Yeah. >> Sorry. Carry on. >> Don't don't don't interrupt. >> Yes. Yes, humans.

[laughter]. >> WHY IS CONFUSING the premise of the Bhal. >> and you were saying? >> I was saying um. >> I have that feeling a lot. I have that. feeling a lot about. >> whispering now cuz in the night time sky. feeling a feeling of awe. put us in the. mood. >> um. >> of like. planes and vaccines and. you know the fact that water comes out. of a tap when you open it like.

>> it is ridiculous. There are things that. are ridiculous and I feel very lucky to. be alive right now. And I feel like. the next hundred years I hope will be. even more interesting. And I have this. incredibly rare opportunity that we all. have to understand what that might look. like. And there's so many things. happening right now. the the idea that I. could get the opportunity to go. understand quantum computers and. bringing back supersonic planes and um.

the large hydron collider and artificial. wombs and you know uh faster more. efficient cars and you know all of these. things that I've had the chance to do. theoretical physics by going in a zero. gravity plane like how incredibly lucky. first of all to be able to tell those. stories but also just as a person this. is the show that I wanted to watch this. is the thing that I felt like I was. missing. >> your version of Popular Mechanics for. Kids. >> Yeah. >> Remember the show? >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. But I think what you're explaining. now is um I I have a theory that the.

next hundred years we won't see any huge. techn technological jumps. >> Really? >> I think it will be to explain it to. people will be the same as how we've. been as gamers anticipating the release. of Grand Theft Auto 6. >> Yes. Preach, brother. >> But then it keeps being postponed. It. does. In its postponement, we've. realized that there's so much we haven't. explored in Grand Theft Auto 5. >> Oo, interesting. >> We keep discovering new universes. There's upgrades. It gets better and. better and we like now we've come out. and said, but Grand Theft Auto 6 can.

wait. But I think there's so much that. we haven't explored about because we've. been on this technological binge and. gorge as you were saying. >> we're just going to the next thing. before we devices. like big shift. >> like I think that's. >> like there won't be any new technology. that blows us out the water. >> That's your bet. That's my 100% bet. >> Wow. We should save this. Please do. No, no, no. I'm I'm serious. Just as like a. bet. I'm interested. >> Yeah, but I think you're crazy. You. could end up I think you could end up. right in a lot of different ways. So you.

could end up right where like we already. have machine learning. So we already. have like AI. >> but there are lots of ways in which it. isn't yet applied right we've just seen. you know AlphaFold we've just seen like. some of these the beginnings of things. that are are going to be hopefully. really interesting for our lives. >> and and so I I think in that sense like. you could call those new technologies or. you could call them evolutions of what. we're already seeing. Exactly. But it's. it happens over time. I think you're. right that it's like a it's it's always. one foot in front of the other.

>> It's an upgrade. >> It's always like that, >> but there will never be anything new. because if you think about it, if we. >> not in the sense of like. >> now we're back to aliens. Oh, no. [laughter] Not not in the sense of like. something just like hit home. >> Yeah. I don't think anything's going to. hit us like a lightning bolt, but I. think like you get to be a part of of. the progress of technology and I think. that's a really exciting thing to lean. into so that you get to say what you. think it should do for us. >> But the more we want something new, the. more the underpinnings stay the same.

because if you think about it, we need. textile has been the same. Just a little. bit improvement here and there. farming, engineering and that is the. underpinnings of engineering can fall. under buildings, transportation and. medication and science and then obvious. textile can fall into other what we use. to design how we dress and how our our. homes look like and agriculture how we. stay alive. So I don't think anything. new is going to come. I think once. people started doing hydroponics we're. like we've reached the end guys. [laughter]. we don't need this this is the limit. I.

was like, >> yeah, I mean I think in a certain sense. like everything is and this is this is. something I I love about. >> humans. Um everything stands on the. shoulders of what came before it. I I. completely agree that like nothing is. new out of thin air. Everything is um. one step above what the people who came. before you built. And I think that's. actually a big part of what I'm trying. to to do is to explain, you know, for. example, when I'm um when I'm trying to. explain um.

new ways to communicate and like like. why, you know, everybody is trying to. put uh. >> satellites. >> satellites to have the internet. Wow, you [clears throat] really knew where I. was going with this. You need to explain. how the internet infrastructure works. right now. You need to explain the. cables on the bottom of the ocean. Like. there's in order to understand what's. next, you need to understand what's now. And we spend a lot of time doing that on. the show, explaining like, okay, if you. are, you know, trying to understand um. why we don't have supersonic planes, you. need to understand the history of the.

Concord. You need to understand how. planes currently work. You need to. understand what happens when there's a. sonic boom over everything, right? Um. that that's a I think there's so much. that we can learn about the future from. understanding what's happening right. now. And I think you know one one thing. that we haven't touched on yet is. >> how we use war to test out technologies. >> We did touch on that. >> Okay. Sh. >> You brought that in. That was. >> always does. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Continue. >> Um is the way in which you get the.

opportunity to go down these rabbit. holes and choose whatever you want to. make is by. >> say more. >> is by owning your own thing. By making. your own thing. We haven't we haven't. talked about the fact that we're having. this conversation on a show that you're. publishing on YouTube and that. [clears throat] you get to decide like. how long this goes on for together. You. guys are coming up with the ideas. >> Well, you're part of it as well. You can. just walk out. >> You could leave anytime as you often do. at parties apparently. You could just. you could just bounce. Yeah, we're going.

to transition. >> No, but you're right. [laughter] And. actually, you know what? I'm glad you. brought that up because it's something. that I've been fascinated about because. I I think you were you're at the. vanguard of a movement that wasn't. particularly obvious at the time. >> There are many people who've started. their own things because they were never. part of something mainstream, which. often makes more sense to me, right? If. you're not part of something, you will. often times create your own thing. you. were definitely part of something and. you were part of something that was. quite popular, quite powerful and quite.

um you know it was quite obvious for. lack of a better term. You then left. when it wasn't obvious. and you went off to do the least obvious. thing in many ways. Help help me. understand that thinking like what is it. about the environment you were in and. what is it about you as a person that. made you go I'm going to go out there. and I'm going to try create the world. that I want to live in even though it's. a lot riskier than the world that I'm. currently in.

>> Thank you for putting it that way. That's a I mean. I first got obsessed with the idea of. this show. I mean we spent a long time. now talking about why I'm so obsessed. with this idea. Like I I hope that you. can see that it's like it really comes. from my desire to watch it, like my. desire to make it creatively. Like. there's just this itch that's just kind. of unbearable at a certain point. And I. wanted I wanted to make it and I wanted. to know if other people wanted to watch. it. I really I mean one of the most.

incredibly gratifying things about. making huge if true has been that all of. a sudden there are other people who are. >> along for the same ride you are that. feel the same itch that you do that that. also felt like the. >> journalism that they were getting was. was pessimistic and it wasn't a full. media diet and they wanted something. like this like to to be um. to see that other people have the same. feeling that you do is really really.

gratifying. >> And I knew that in order to make. something that had this kind of to be. honest like sharp edge like huge is. different than other media that I. consume. And it that's not to say that. other media isn't great. Um but I there. is there are things that I'm saying I. don't like about mainstream media. There. are things that like I the show has a an. incredible positivity and a joy. It also. has an edge. It's saying like there is. harm in being knee-jerk pessimistic. There is a there is a a point to this.

show. Um, and we're doing things a different way. And that that feeling, I just knew that. I wouldn't be able to do that in the way. that I really wanted to do it. And I. wouldn't be able to test whether the. actual thing that was in my brain was. the thing that other people wanted if I. was inside a big media company, right? Like I just I to be clear I wasn't. offered the opportunity to make the show. inside a big media company but I didn't. even I didn't pitch it. I didn't I. didn't want to have the incentives and. the constraints and the lack of control.

>> We talk about this all the time. We. literally talk about this all the time. >> You did this. >> Yeah. >> And in fact and and so that was the the. main the main point was I really wanted. to make this show the way that I wanted. to make it. >> Were you ever afraid. >> of meeting us? [laughter]. >> No. Look at what it's done to you. >> Um, yeah. All the time. >> Yeah. I think there's still when you're. when you're making anything that you. really love, I think there's an. underlying fear of it first not working.

Then when it is working, oh my god, might it might go away. >> Like there's a you live with a kind of. when you're really doing something that. you love, you live with a kind of. healthy fear. I think. >> I think that's good. I think that feels. good actually to not always feel first. the fear of something not working means. that I think you're pushing yourself. creatively. Second, the fear of other. people not liking it means that you are. potentially making something that some.

people will dislike and some people will. love and that's probably healthy. >> And third, there's just a fear of putting yourself. out there. like a fear of. [clears throat] like doing what you want. and it just. >> and it just not working or once you have. success of it going away. Um, and I want. to feel that like I want to feel that. all the time. And so it felt much. scarier to do to do this. >> Don't press anything. We've got more. What now after this?

[music] Now that you're in it, how do. you insulate yourself from the. hadonic adaptation of the success? How. do you It's something that's always. fascinated me when I when I watch people. in life. Um, someone's an actor, they just dream of. getting an acting gig and then they get. into a movie and this is their dream and. then now they want to be one of the. leads and then they are one of the leads.

and then they want to be the lead and. then they are the lead. Then they want. to be a star. Then they a star. Then. they want to be an A-list star. Then. they're an A-list star. And then and. then all of a sudden they spend all. their days depressed that their box. office numbers aren't what they used to. be. I used to think that that was. reserved and maybe naively when I. thought this I thought it was reserved. for like mainstream and industry. But. you realize it applies to everything in. life. And I see this with a lot of. people on Tik Tok, on YouTube who create.

and make and they hit a high. and man getting back to that ah high or. like you have you ever I've I've always. enjoyed doing this. I'll go to. somebody's like let's say a Tik Tok goes. viral like mega viral everyone's. watching it and then I'll [snorts] go. down a rabbit hole of that person's page. >> and it's amazing to see how they were. just doing whatever they wanted to do. and then one video goes absolutely viral. and then watch how their whole page. after that just becomes that video.

>> alters their trajectory. >> Yeah. But more importantly it alters how. they see themselves and what they should. be or shouldn't be doing. So, you find. they're singing karaoke, they're cooking. food in front of the camera, they're. hanging out with their friends, they're. doing all these things, and then the. karaoke video goes viral, then they hang. out with their friends, nothing. Then. they cook, nothing. Then they do karaoke. again, semi, and then you just see them. make that their identity. How do you how. do you grapple with that? And like do. you have any safeguards or do you have.

any ideas that you impose on yourself. where you go, "Oh, this is how I always. come back to me being me and not letting. the clicks define who I become.". >> It's not me, it's the show. >> Everything comes back to the mission of. the show. >> Oh, I like that. >> And so for me, I didn't start with a lot. of different ways in which I could be. popular on YouTube. I started with I. want to make this one show. Will it or. will it not work? Do you also want this. show? >> How do you define work though? Like will. it work? What's what's your metric for? Will it work? >> Can I make things that I'm proud of that.

have this mission of showing people. optimistic visions of the future so that. they can help build them, the three. pillars, can I successfully do that and. get better and better at it? And by the. way, experiment in lots of different. ways. The science fiction in the in the. asteroid episode, the, you know, going. to Formula 1 behind the scenes, like. there are lots of different ways in. which we experiment with formats and. topics. But can I do something that. meets this mission that we set out to. with huge if true? And also,

do people want to watch that? Is that. because the the reason why I am so. ambitious with this show? I really want. this show to be watched by many many. more people than it is now is because I. actually think it accomplishes something. that I want to happen in the world. I I. really think that if more people had. generally a media diet that allowed them. to see these visions more often and. allowed them to participate more in the. conversation and allowed them to explore. how they could contribute to the world.

in an optimistic way, we'd all be better. for it. And I wish more people were. doing it, but right now like the way. that I can accomplish that in the world. is through making this show enormous. And so I I have this incredibly strong. ambition and motivation to make this. show watched by millions and millions of. people, which it already is, and it's. it's growing, and I'm so incredibly. proud of that. Um, but at the same time, I'm not. >> I'm not trying. to find the way in which they'll like. me. I'm trying to see if they like this.

>> There's a world in which nobody wanted. to watch this and then I just stopped. Okay? >> Because I wasn't I wasn't experimenting. I didn't start out the channel by. saying, you know, here I am. I'm going. to explore like I'm just going to make. things like come along with me for for. the journey. I said I'm going to make. this show. >> And that I think has been really. protective. >> Yeah. You've separated yourself from the. project, from the work. >> Yeah. And then the other thing that's. happened. >> is isn't that in Sorry to interrupt you. I feel like that's. >> that's in that book. I'm sure many.

people have said it, but in that book um. the war of art. >> I think one of the it's really amazing. I think you you'd enjoy it. But it talks. about the the complicated nature of. artistry and and the journey of making. and what it means to create, right? To. take something from nothing, bring it. out into the world, make it something, and then other people consume it. >> And one of one of the main things it. speaks about is how the true mastery of. being an artist requires you to know. that you are not your work and your work.

is not you, but you have deep pride in. that work. Because if you're unable to. separate yourself from it, >> then in its success or in its failure, you will always define yourself. >> But if you go, this is a thing I made or. did. >> Do you like it? >> Yes. No. All right. Well, I made it. >> But I guess you are experiencing there's. always what I find is an healthy amount. of u insecurity that comes with being an. artist. And I think that's why even the. greatest artists were either unhappy or. they had to have paradigm shifts where. they move elsewhere. >> you know because I I I think when you.

catch on to a great idea they always. explained as you have an antenna. everyone has ideas are floating around. but one person will catch it but they. have to have the naivity and the. confidence to think that what they're. thinking is unique then go out there and. do it then if they've done it enough. they start thinking well if I'm here. like Einstein he he thinks if I'm here. in Germany and everyone maybe I must go. somewhere else then he goes somewhere. else then he comes here [clears throat]. then here they're like tell us more. about that thing of yours cuz he goes. where I come from everyone's. >> thinking and Braun is here because he.

makes rockets so clear there's something. there so you go somewhere else and. that's where I think the analogy that I. made about being in the living room and. then going into the bedroom to see. what's going on only to come back again. to the living room comes into play and I. think if you don't move as an artist and. I think that's what you are. >> if you don't move you've realized that. you you die if you don't evolve you. perish. >> and then you try to create a show that. makes us evolve forcefully at our pace. and the comfort of our own homes and. screens. Right. >> Thank you for saying that. Yeah. >> You want this?

>> Yeah. >> That's beautiful, [laughter] Eugene. >> I think I think that's exactly. beautiful. >> Yeah. >> I. >> So I I wanted that creative opportunity. I wanted that for myself. I wanted it. for the show. I wanted it for the. audience. >> Now I have this incredible team that I. work with that you asked also, how do I. how do I make sure that it stays the. show? like they know what feels like. huge. Oh, that's great. And they create. a constraint. Like there's a there's a. team culture and a team mission and.

we're all together making this thing. And so I am the the vessel to make the. thing better on screen, but we're all. making it together. And that I think is. really important to to maintain the. mission of what you're doing. And so so. all of those things I think help a lot. And then there's also the enormous wave. I mean, we haven't talked yet about I. think. huge and what we're doing is part of at. least three big trends in media right.

now. >> Okay. And what are those three? >> The first is that YouTube is eating. television. >> I mean, YouTube has been the most. watched streaming platform for at least. two years. >> It's eating it alive, which is very sad. >> It's It's wild stuff. >> Don't wait for it to die first. It's. kicking it. >> No. By the way, [laughter]. I mean, you guys are you guys have been. part of that. Um, [laughter]. >> oh, sorry, it's a deep cut. Yeah, it's a.

sorry. >> And um and so you guys have been part of. that. Uh, and the the wave of YouTube allowing I. mean because the bet that YouTube made. was incredible, right? Like every other. streamer said, "If we have a small. number of gatekeepers and they decide. what gets made, [clears throat] then. that is the best stuff that most people. will want to watch and that's the stuff. that should get made." And there's a a. whole business model around giving. upfront money. You make the thing, you. put the thing, you have a subscription, you watch the thing. And that's the.

philosophy that has grown every other. streaming platform. And YouTube had a. fundamentally different bet which was if. we give a platform and split advertising. revenue with anyone in the world who. could make great things. Then if we wait. and we allow that work to kind of. improve and percolate upward and have a. system that recommends the right work to. the right people then that is actually. the way that we will get the work that. the most people want to watch. That's a.

crazy bet. That is a fundamentally. different bet than every other streamer. It turns out it's working. And how. incredible is it that that works? >> I'm torn though. Yes, there's a lot. >> I'll tell you why I'm torn. Only because. to obviously on the one side, I think. it's amazing. >> I think to live in a world. >> where people can create what they feel. needs to be created if they don't see. it. >> And people get to consume what they want. to consume. Like I have a friend who. watches knife sharpening videos. That's. pretty much all he does is just like. watch knife sharpening videos.

>> Is he in this room? Yeah. >> Is he good? He is in this room. >> He passed away [laughter] by in this. room. He means. [laughter]. >> OH, HE'S HERE. >> HE'S HERE WITH US NOW. >> He's here with us now. >> His voice [laughter]. screaming from the great beyond. >> Um, no. So, like but but but what I mean. by that is I do think that part of it is. amazing. >> Just like your show. What I like to try. and do is also think about always the.

second system effect. what are we. missing. >> that we we we take for granted cuz with. every gift comes a curse. And the other. side of it is those institutions while. they were and while they still are. definitely flawed, they're a lot easier. to hold accountable cuz you can find. them. Do you know what I'm saying? So. when the BBC says something that's wrong. or that people don't like, they can find. the BBC. They can like go after the BBC. in a in a very definite way. When. Netflix has a show that people are not. angry about or you know what I mean?

like didd he suing Netflix where he's. like I'm going to sue you for the. documentary. >> but he can sue Netflix but if that thing. was put out on YouTube just it becomes a. little more opaque it becomes a little. less tangible it becomes. >> and so it's like that's why I say I'm. torn because it's this world where it's. like ah you want people to have as much. freedom as possible to put out what they. like. >> but we also don't want to live in a. world where. >> the ultimate harms can be done because. nobody can be held accountable do you. know like I'm sure you think about that. as well.

>> And it's made even more complicated by. the second trend which is that people. >> like all of us who might have been. employees at large companies. >> then go independent. And so the the. trend I mean I I'm thinking yeah I'm. thinking of the trend particularly in. journalism of people going independent. Um but it's true in in many other places. too. It's obviously true in comedy. It's. it's true in lots of different. industries. And so that I would say I'm. a part and huge is a part and you're a. part of this second trend of.

independence. >> that is created by the first trend of. the success of YouTube. >> And then the third trend is maybe maybe. it's a part of a story about pessimism. itself. It's it's part of a story about. the feeling that people have about news. and the world getting worse and the. feeling that that news has. contributed to our understanding of the. world getting worse and huge is. something different. And so those I. think are the three. >> like stories in the world that we are.

somehow in the middle of the ven diagram. on. And it's an interesting place to be. because to your point there are all. kinds of parts of those stories. There. the the shadow sides of each of those. things. there's the extreme upside of. like what if what if this these trends. continue and you know I mean we're. already at a place it's so interesting. to look at the difference between when I. launched just 3 years ago and where we. are now I mean the story when I launched. was like new media is coming this is.

something that is coming [laughter] like. >> we're we're long since here like that. story makes no sense anymore like we are. >> already. that are larger than any other media. company. in the world. >> Um, >> and so that's. >> that's really important and interesting. And to your point about accountability, like how do how do people that have are. now independently running these shows. that are bigger than the media. operations on the biggest platform in.

the world, >> how do they take responsibility, as you. said, for the things that they publish? Um, >> and so it's it's a it's a really. exciting time. I'm obviously I'm in true. to form, very optimistic about where. this is all going, but I I think it's um. it's interesting uh and complicated and. thrilling. And I remember um I've been. wanting to ask you this question because. I remember when I left Vox and I got a. lot of congratulations,

but a lot of it was with this tone of. like, oh, I would I would never do that. were. like, "Oh, um the the phrase a lot of. the time was that's so brave.". >> Oh, I love that phrase. >> Yeah, so brave. >> And uh and I got a DM on Twitter from. you. and. you said. congratulations, like best of luck. And this was when you.

were on the Daily Show. Yeah. And I had. been watching your stuff for a long. time. >> And I had no idea that you were watching. Vox and you were watching mine. And so I. had announced that I was going. independent and you said best of luck. and it I mean I've said this to you. before but like it was a real moment for. me to say like oh. like I knew I was already making the. bet. But it was incredibly helpful to. hear from someone who had a show that.

was, let's be honest, like the. definition of mainstream success. >> say like best of luck. Basically, like, I think this is a good choice for you. >> So, thank you. >> You You're welcome. But for me, it's. it's an obvious one. And Eugene and I. have been on this journey for what, 20. years now? >> I've I think it's two things. One, I love appreciating the people who've. made an impact in my life even from. afar. Do you know what I mean? So, in my.

whole journey, whether it was on the. daily show or not, I remember like in my. whole life, every comedian who like put. me on on some stage or introduced me to. another comedian or promoter in another. country. I remember journalists who. wrote great pieces, who helped me. understand the world that I was trying. to understand. I I authors who've. literally changed my life. I try and. have them on this podcast now. And some. of them will say to me, they'll be like, I wrote that book 10 years ago. And I'm. like, yeah, but it's it's still with me. now. You know, they're like, why did you.

call me now? There's literally some. people come to the show and go, I. haven't done anything in 10 years. And. I'm like, yeah, but it stayed with me. for 10 years. >> That's the first part. The second part. is. exactly what you said is is the. the unsafe bets. And. I think there's a misalignment often. times in how we act in society versus. what we say. We will say we want to. explore. We will say we want people to. go and try things. We will say we want.

what we often want is the reward from. these things. >> We want huge if true. We want the show. now that it's working, >> but we don't really want people to go. out and like try it in that way. And and. I don't know what it does to people, but. you you and I have spoken a lot about. it. It makes people uncomfortable. when people, as Eugene says, go rogue. It It It's interesting how it makes. people around you uncomfortable. >> Yeah. >> The amount of people who said that to. me, and by the way, this has been the. story of my life. When I.

>> when I first started doing standup. comedy, I had been lucky enough to get a. job on a radio station at 3:00 a.m. on. the weekends in Johannesburg in like in. Koeng only, right? >> [clears throat]. >> one state, one province, >> regional, >> regional, >> and that's where I was. No one listened. I knew all my listeners by name. Tiny. little thing, but it it paid my bills. I. started comedy while doing that. >> Comedy grew and I was lucky enough that. comedy, it just got to the point where I. had to choose which one I was going to. do. I chose comedy. Everyone said,

>> "Yeah, >> what are you doing? You have a great o. what are you doing step away from being. at breakfast?". >> And the thing it made me, >> you're one slot away. What it made me. realize even at that time was. not only did they not see the. possibility that I was aiming for, >> it made them uncomfortable. >> because if you're on if you're living on. an island, someone gets on a boat and. says, "I'm sailing somewhere else that. we cannot see." You'll be shocked at how.

it makes the people on that island angry. and uncomfortable. >> because they're like, "Are you saying. this isn't it? Are you?" People start to. internalize things. They go, "Are you. saying I'm boring for staying on this. island? Are you saying there's a better. island out there? Are you saying this. island might not exist in a few days?". >> And all of a sudden, people get angry at. you. How could you? Why would you leave? What are you doing, Fox? Are you. kidding? >> And so whenever I see people who do. that, you know what I mean? It for some. reason it it sparks something in me.

>> We only want to leave when everything's. fallen apart. We only want to explore when we're. forced to go. And I I often think to. myself, wouldn't it be beautiful if you. could find those opportunities and those. moments. to do it in like a good leave with. energy, you know? Don't escape. >> Embark. There's a different feeling in. in both of them. And so for me, it was. one of those things where I was like, what you're doing was crazy. It was. genuinely crazy. And I was so impressed. by I was like, ah,

>> I mean, I've loved the stuff you've. made. Good luck. You're going to kill it. out there. You've got the talent. Those. types of people, you're one of them as. well. Those types of people who inspire. me cuz I go like, "What are you doing?". Oh, boy. All right. Well, [laughter]. that's a crazy thought. Like with. Eugene, it was like the opposite. Eugene. like just took a break at some point and. I was like, "What are you doing?". Eugene's like, "Yeah, I'm taking a. break." It's like, "You're taking a. break?" He's like, "Yeah, I'm just going. to pause for a while.". >> And I remember, it's the craziest thing. I was so inspired by the fact that this. human being showed me.

that there was the option to take a. break even though you don't know what's. on the other side of that break. >> So in all of these I'm just like, "Yeah, man." And and by the way, I didn't think. you were making the right choice. I just. thought you were making a good choice. >> Good choice. Yeah. >> Oh, interesting. Because the question I. wanted to ask you, >> if [snorts] I'm if I'm honest about that. message, what you said was, "I've been. wondering when you're going to do that.". And I thought to myself two things. >> Sounds like him. >> I I thought to myself two things. The.

first was you know who I am. [laughter]. >> When did you start wondering this? And. the second thing I thought was how did. you know that that was even an option? Like because for me going independent on. YouTube, there was at least one person. Johnny Harris and is Harris who were. building a journalistic independent. media group from that he had left Vox. And so there was at least one example. that I could see of someone doing this. well.

>> But until I actually began thinking. about doing it, it didn't feel like one. of the options that was available to me. And I thought it was going to be the. start of. what what has now become true, which is. this wave of sort of people going. independent both in journalism and in. comedy and in and in all walks of life. Um, but at the time like how did you. know. that that was an option? Because my. perception is I should have been more. likely to know that that was true than.

you who were at the kind of the the. pinnacle of. mainstream media success. So, I I didn't. know that it was an option, but I think. I sometimes. have I don't know if it's just an innate. ability, but I I can often times spot. somebody. who is an outlier in the environment. that they're in. >> And it doesn't necessarily mean that. they don't gel with their environment. I. just go like, "Yeah,

you're going to leave." And not leave in. a bad way. You're just you're going to. leave. Does that make sense? because. there's there's there's something about. you that tells me you are going to do. something that goes beyond this. So on. your side, I mean now I'd have to be. like trying to go back and remember what. it was, but maybe just having this. conversation with you, I was probably. thinking at the time, you're creating. these explainers. You're you're you're. making this world really interesting, entertaining, positive, despite what the.

content is. It was all about like. Congress and and the Senate and. >> this is not an a positive world and it's. not necessarily an interesting world. >> Exciting. >> Mhm. >> But it is definitely a limited world. >> You know what I mean? And so maybe I saw. in you something that maybe I hope to. see in myself, which was, oh, I'm not. only this thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I love politics, but I'm not only. that. You know what I mean? I' I've. literally met people who think that's. all I am all the time. Mhm. >> I'll never forget in the like in Miami.

at like midnight, some random guy came. up to me in the street and he was just. like, "Donald Trump 2024." Yeah. And I was like, "And. he was like, yeah." [laughter]. I was like, "And I genuinely looked at I. was like, "What do you what do you. think's going to happen? Did you think. you were going to say that?" I'll be. like, "No, [laughter]. no, no." Said Mandela. Like, what? What. did you think? I was like, "Oh, it's. because your your experience of me.

>> is onedimensional." So you think that my. world is contained in that one. dimension. I. >> often times will latch on to people who. don't operate in that one dimension cuz. they inspire me. So this guy here is. like comedy is one of his dimensions and. then I mean history you know nature. documentaries, guns, motorbikes, um. aliens like but I mean it's no but it's. infinite really. It really is infinite. with you and.

>> I think when you when you see that and. you see somebody especially somebody. who's creating. >> you'll see that they they're forced to. create in one sphere. Like we had Derek. Fjo uh on on the podcast and he's a. friend of mine who's an artist, phenomenal, phenomenal artist, but. everyone knows him for like his. paintings. >> Mhm. >> And then he started making sculptures. And I remember asking him one day, I was. like, "Hey, why the sculptures?" And he. was like, "Cuz I want to make sculptures. as well." And I remember going, "Oh. yeah, >> just because you're famous for this. thing doesn't mean you should limit.

yourself. Just because you're successful. in this thing doesn't mean you should. limit yourself.". >> And then he started making a whole. interactive show. I'll tell this to. anyone who can. If you ever see a Derek. Forger show come up, they're always. free. They had an art gallery, but. they're always free. Go. It is one of. the most amazing experiences you'll ever. have because he makes the life live. Like you you're not you're no longer. just looking at a painting. You you. you're transported to a time. >> Music, videos, paintings, sculptures, installations that you have to walk. through. >> And I always tell him, I go like, "Oh,

you remind me to use your analogy that. Being a human being, no matter who you. are, you have your antenna up there, >> certain things will make them vibrate. more than others. You'll catch more. frequencies than others, >> but it doesn't mean that you should only. vibrate at the strongest frequencies. Explore the other ones. >> Mhm. >> Do you know what I mean? >> The faint signal. >> Yeah. There's this this faint signal. that's also wonderful to have. And so, I. don't know. I I think it was something. like that with you where I was just like. when I'd see you there, I'd go, well,

this can't be the only thing that you. find interesting. So, it's only a matter of time before I. assume you're just going to go and make. your own thing somehow somewhere. So, when it happened, I wasn't I wasn't. particularly shocked. I was like, "Oh, yeah. All right. I was waiting to see. when this would happen.". >> I think um. sometimes when you revisit the past, you. get to see what the present and the. future will definitely look like. What. you guys are explaining now and from. hearing this is is no different from how.

ancient civilizations always rewarded. and found a way to crowdfund well they. called it something else back then. [laughter] to crowdfund philosophers and. those philosophers should have. apprentices and those apprentices will. one day become the philosophers of their. time and the written word was the only. way that those philosophers was there. was their YouTube. >> interesting. >> so those people were paid to think of. ideas to envision how politics should. and how art and culture and if you had a. great idea, if you could think, if you.

could paint, if you can sculpt, pay this. person to just do that thing. And that's. how civilizations are born. And I think. we might just not see this now, but 200. years from now, if someone looks at this. portal that was open, which is YouTube, which is equivalent to thousand years. ago to written and spoken word, scrolls, it's like a press. It's the same thing. This footprint, there's ideas, they will. never be new again. Everything that. you're speaking about now might be. obvious in 100 years but will never be. new again. And I guess that's the whole. thing. That's the whole synergy and.

that's what you've been good at. spotting. You know, you've you've spoken. a lot of people off their cliffs and. giving them their careers without even. knowing is the ability to see another. philosopher. and go if you explore this idea further. you might hit the jackpot of your own. independence, of your own freedom and of. your own autonomy because that's the. ultimate reward. And I think that's why. super uh thoughtful people who are. philosophers, financial reward is never. their aim. It's autonomy. It's them. feeling like I can do what I want when I.

want. >> Yeah. >> And once you've reached that, that's the. pinnacle. And I think. >> I think everyone exactly that, right? >> I think everyone benefits. That's the. most important thing as well. >> Yeah. >> Is the understanding that everyone can. benefit from it. That's what that's what. I also find selfishly. I'm going as a. fan of yours. >> Well, I hope I see more. Same with your. comedy. remember even from back in the. day I was like when when Eugene. >> I'm waiting for this I'm waiting for. that I'm waiting you know what I mean. I'm selfishly I'm going this this this. benefits me so I'm assuming it benefits.

>> basically what you're saying is myel. didn't spend years upside down painting. the ceiling of the of the basilica for. him to look at it. >> he did it for other people. >> other people that's beautiful. >> that is. >> and so what's it what's it been like. what what is if the lesson is. an ability to more fully experiment. experiment with or express who you are? What's it been like for you? What do you. feel like you're able to express now? What are you trying to experiment with? >> That's an interesting question. Damn. Um,

okay. So, here's here's here's the. analogy I would use. I think a lot of. life is us. trying to climb a mountain. and a lot of the times that mountain is. often introduced to us by others. They. tell us hey that mountain over there man. if you can climb that mountain. you've done it. And so then we we grow. up our whole lives going okay mountain.

all right mountain one day and then at. some point you start you start climbing. the mountain you start climbing the. mountain you while you're climbing the. mountain you might meet some people. along the way who've either come down or. have settled at certain parts of it and. they'll you know they'll be like oh yeah. the mountain welcome to the mountain. yeah the mountain yeah mountain we go to. see at the mountain. >> and you're climbing it and if you ask. yourself the question why am I climbing. it it's because I've I've always wanted. to climb I've always you know. >> it's only when you get to what you have. to define as your peak that you stop and.

go, "Oh, this is lovely. This was hard, but what mountains do I want to climb? Do I want to go walk in valleys?". >> Mhm. >> Do I want to stroll along rivers? Do I. want to Oh, I've I've now climbed what. mountains people hoped I would climb. So, now what would I like to do? Mhm. >> And in that exploration, it's terrifying. because first of all, success or failure becomes like a, you. know, everyone has the when are you uh.

you going to get back to mountain? And. you're like, no. >> Yeah. >> You know, like one of the number one. things people ask me in general is like, "So, what's uh what's next?" That's. that's why I named the podcast. I was. like, "What now? So, what now?". >> Yeah. >> What now? I was like, "What do you. mean?" And they're like, "So, what uh. what?" I'm like, I'm going to live life. And they go, yeah, but I mean [laughter]. beyond that, I'm like, what is beyond. living life? And now I get to enjoy all. of that more. I wouldn't have had the.

time before to sit down with you like. this and to sit down with one of my best. friends and explore and learn and have a. deeper understanding of how you create. and, you know what I mean, get into the. mind of somebody who's going to be. shaping generations to come because of. her work. >> You I wouldn't have the time. And so. everything in life I find now is there's. a there's a beautiful book that I that I. read. We should have we should have the. author on if he'll join us. It was a. book called 4,000 weeks. And it's a book. that just breaks down that the average. human has about 4,000 weeks on this. planet.

>> How do you want to spend those weeks? And when you understand the limited. nature of those weeks, you also. understand that you're always going to. be missing something because you're. doing something else. And so instead. instead of instead of having FOMO, >> rather enjoy this thing that you're. actually experiencing. So when you're at. this party, don't think about the party. you're missing. Or don't when you're at. home, don't think about the party you're. missing. Be like, "Ah, can't believe I'm. in my bed right now. What a joy.". And there I genuinely have found some of. the most fun and the most joy and the.

most like and so when people ask me. these question sometimes people be like. wow but I mean you. >> what do you what do you what do you what. do you and I'm like well a little bit of. this a little bit of that maybe nothing. I see them get uncomfortable on my. behalf. >> and I'm like no. >> maybe this is because I'm trying to. climb my mountain you know. >> but do you ever think about the fact. that this mountain might be bigger. It's always going to be bigger. >> But like the the that what you that what. you are doing right now is part of like.

we talked about this this wave that. there is a very real future where in in. literal terms in the success terms that. people used to talk to you about that. this actually could be the bet that is. the biggest thing you ever make. That is. [laughter]. that is like like and that's kind of. hard to keep together, right? Because. what you're expressing is a very healthy. psychology of like I'm doing this. because I want to do this. >> But at the same time, there is a reality. here where you're experiencing this wave.

of independent owned media and you own. it and you're making something that I. don't know what the Daily Show. viewership was. I don't know what your. viewership is right now, but like in a. very real way, this could be or become. the biggest thing you ever make because. you're all of a sudden part of this. >> this new mountain. It it's it's. >> hard to do hold things at the same time. >> I think that's exactly what it is. Hold. them both at the same time. I'll tell. you why. >> When Eugene and I started doing comedy. in South Africa at the time, comedy was.

how many years old? >> True. Less than. >> like like standup comedy. And I mean. this because less than 10. >> Yeah. Because remember we didn't have. free speech in South Africa because of. aparttheite. Right. So it's not that's. what I mean by standup comedy widespread. people doing. It wasn't really a thing. >> Less than less than 10. You have the. first wave of comedians who jumps out. and they start doing the comedy, right? We were like the second wave, I would. argue, >> but it was a relatively young scene. There were no comedy clubs. >> This was not a structure or a thing. I. remember once my mom saying to me, "What.

do you do? Like, where are you going? What?" And I said, "I I do standup. comedy." And my mom said to me, Trevor, this lifestyle of selling drugs is going. to catch up with you. [laughter]. And I said, "What?" [laughter] And she. said, "Man, this lifestyle of selling drugs is going. to catch up with you.". >> She was so gentle with it. >> And I said, "Mom, I I don't sell drugs. I I do comedy." And she says, "Puty,". she said, "that.

save your lies for others. This. lifestyle will not end well." And I was. like, "Mama." And she said, "Even. asking, what do you what where do you. say your money comes from?" And I said, "I go and I tell jokes." And she's like, "My child." And then she just walked. into the house calm, but she was like, That's how I I don't know what it was. like for you when you first told someone. what you do. >> There were cops in my bedroom. [laughter] Then my mom was like, I TOLD. HIM. this lifestyle won't end well. [laughter]. But but you do you know what I mean? That's how that's how random it was,

right? So, but I there was there's this spark and I. this is what I always encourage people. to do this is I go. remember that you need to do things to. survive. >> and you also need to do things to. thrive. >> Mhm. >> We often times forget the latter. >> Mhm. >> Survival is important. I'll never tell. anybody. I don't like it when people go. like chase your dreams, throw everything. else. No, no, no, no, no, no. Hey, survive.

>> Mhm. >> Survive. Work. Survive. Come on. get. that thing going, >> but also don't forget to find ways to. thrive. >> I'm always searching for ways to thrive. So, comedy was that when we did it. genuinely, there was no money in it. There was no industry in it. There was. no this was the thing we did. We met. each other at it's like a local bowling. alley and telling jokes type thing. That's how that's the vibe. Then at some point, it seemed obvious, right? When I was going to do the daily show, it was it wasn't obvious at all. In.

fact, it was a it was an it was a. failure for I would say like the first. year and a half at least. It was an. utter failure. >> In fact, you didn't come here to do the. Daily Show? Yeah, I didn't. >> Which is what people get around. >> I didn't. No, I was here doing standup. comedies, doing stand up and then I was. home and then the Daily Show, John. Stewart phoned me and was like, "Please. come do one episode. We did one and then. he tricked me and trapped me and I still. hold it against him and I also am. grateful to him forever for it." But. like. that thing I I hope I never lose it and. I hope everyone has the opportunity to. experience it. >> because what happens is you bump into.

the things right. So Joe Rogan for. instance is one of the people I speak. about this. >> It seems obvious that UFC is the biggest. you know fighting platform now and it's. worth all this money. But when Joe Rogan was starting in UFC, it was this fringe. >> They used to call it cage fighting, >> cage fighters, and Joe Rogan loved it. And people did it and and he and then. they were like, do you want to comment? He's like, I want He was I think he was.

the one who was like, can I come and. commentate on this thing? People like, you know, about it now. It seems. obvious. >> No, >> it was his passion. It was his joy. He. did that thing. >> and now it seems obvious. And so I I. think sometimes we make the mistake of. only thinking about where we'll go. because it might become something and. not just because we want to do. The. Wright brothers did not think I I would. say I don't know you you've probably. read more on it. >> I don't think they thought about airline. industries. >> Yeah. >> The Wright brothers were probably just.

like man. cool to fly. >> Wouldn't it be cool to fly? >> They just wanted to prove their. girlfriends wrong. [laughter] You're. never going to fly, Mark. The next thing. crash investigation. Oh, >> jam. >> Maybe maybe they were the the version of. the teacher that said, imagine you could. fly. >> Exactly. >> And they said, "Oh, >> yeah." And a few months before that, they wrote an article that said, "This. thing will never happen. >> This thing will never Yeah." So, I think. I think that's all it is, you know. Um, >> yeah. And and that's that's why you are.

here. So, thank you. Thank you for this, by the way. Thank you for the. conversation. >> Thank you so much. Most importantly, thank you for putting you out there cuz. we've all benefited from it. >> And uh I can't wait to see what you do. now. I mean, I'm in curling in a way. that I didn't need to be. >> In February, I'll have a video for you. >> I was already going to watch for the. jokes, but now I'm there for the science. as well. [laughter]. She did it again, folks. Cleo's done it. again. >> This was fun. Thank you. >> This is awesome. Thank you, guys. >> All right, folks. >> Cheers,

>> Cleo. You are worth. >> Thank you very much. For real. Thank you. so much. Likewise, >> you were worth the hype. You were like, you delivered and surpassed. >> Thank you so much for watching the. episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on. to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friend still. Let. them suffer for a change. And don't. forget to engage with us in the. comments. Uh if you want to suggest. [music] a guest, maybe there's questions. you want, maybe there's ideas that you. have, you can chat to us. We will read. through the comments and we'll get into.

it. Either way, I appreciate you taking. the time. Thank you for hanging out with. us on What Now. And remember, we do this. for you, so we would like to hear from. you. [music] Till next time, thank you.