Carter Sherman: How Shame Became the New Sex Ed

Gen Z is having a sex recession. >> 20 and 30somes are having less sex. [music] than previous generations and. are starting their sex lives later. Gen. Z have been done dirty when it comes to. dating and people's views of dating is. more polarizing than ever. >> For many teenagers, [music]. greater use of social media means a far. greater sense of isolation. The average. 14-year-old boy today has seen more. hardcore porn than all the American. fighting forces in the Second World War. or sexed here in the United States is. nonsense and confusion because it. teaches you how to be safe but not the.

[music] pleasures and porn teaches you. the pleasures sort of but not how to be. safe. >> Carter Sherman, reproductive health and. justice reporter at the Guardian who. interviewed over a hundred young people. for her new book. It's called The Second. Coming. [music]. This is What now with Trevor Noah. This episode is presented by Whole Foods. Market. Eat well for less.

[music]. >> I'm truly so excited to have this. conversation. You understand? >> Well, thank you for having me on. >> Yeah, because like sometimes you reading. a book and then it's just like facts, facts, data, data, facts, facts, facts. And then here it's like facts, data, sex. >> Yeah. >> Good times. >> Why don't you lead with that? [laughter]. >> I mean, >> WELL, HERE COFFEE, COFFEE, MARRIAGE, COFFEE, HOSPITALS, HOSPITALS, RESEARCH. [laughter]. >> You know, I like to surprise. Yeah, that's the secret thing that I also.

write about in addition to healthcare is. sex, which is more fun. That's for sure. >> Sherman, your husband's. >> No, it's my name. [laughter]. >> What? He asked if Sherman was my husband's. name and I was instantly like [laughter]. no just no way. [snorts]. >> Oh, that's funny. >> His name is his last name is Conway. Pearson. And so I would like to combine. our names and be like con man and Conway. and Sherman and be con man.

>> And so I'm a journalist. I could be. journalist con man. He's a doctor. He. could be Dr. Conman. I think it would be. that's the only way I would change my. name is. >> those are some of that's I mean like. those are some of those things in life. that are terrible in the thought. >> but man what a beautiful idea. >> yes. >> that would be a great one Dr. Conman. especially if anything went wrong you. you've you've like immunized yourself. >> yeah what were you expecting. >> well when Dr. Conman I'm sorry you. trusted Dr. Conman totally your fault. [laughter]. >> it just becomes that in everything.

>> Dr. con man. >> His malpractice insurance might be. really hard to come by, but. >> Right. I loved your reaction when I. asked if that's his surname or yours and. you were like mine. [laughter]. >> So So you haven't changed your surname. or you only use your surname when you're. doing business? >> I haven't changed my surname at all. >> No. >> South Africa just made it uh Did you see. the the law just changed? Yes. >> Now I did I was shocked that you can. only do it now. Now husbands can take. >> the woman's name. But I was like now you. know when you you learn about heard. >> of it before. >> Yeah. But I was just like, wait, I don't.

know that there was a law against this. >> Yeah. Would you. >> would I what? >> Take my wife's name? >> Yes. >> Depends on if her name made my name. cooler or more interesting. >> Like it like like it's like let's say. her last name was like Weber. I wouldn't. want to be like Trevor Weber. >> I don't know. I like that actually. >> No, I'm not doing that. >> You do as well. >> Trevor Weber. >> No. No. Now it's like I'm I'm roasting. myself everywhere I go. People are. roasting me. Oh, Trevor Weber. No, I'm. not. I don't want that. >> Okay. Maybe. So [clears throat] it have. to be like lightning. So you lightning.

>> No. Okay. [laughter] I like that I like. that this was your I like that this was. your contribution. Trevor Lightning. >> Are you surprised by the business that. con [laughter] like a cool last name? >> No. But what I mean is like you've got. to take me like Eugene Ka. It has a It. has a music to it because you're used to. it. >> No, no, no, no, it does. There's certain. names that don't have a music. And to. those people, I apologize because your. parents messed you up. >> Carter Sherman. That has music to it. Carter Sherman. You know what I mean? Author written all overact. Somebody did. tell me it would be a good name for like.

a airport paperback thriller writer. It. would like the latest. >> Carter would the latest Carter Sherman. It has that vibe. Even like a rapper. would say Carter Sherman. Never heard. him. You know what I mean? It's got like. a cool like. >> not German. >> There we go. What? You see? You see what. I'm talking about? This I'm going to. leave here with the theme song. That's. what's going to happen here. >> This is You see what I mean? These are. good names. Eugene Ka has the floor. Trevor Noah. No, Trevor Weber. It just. sounds like you stumbled after saying. it. I wouldn't do that. But that's.

that's for your next book. >> Okay. The best names, just a list of. >> who should take whose last name. >> is your next book. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I would advocate I think it is. cool when men take their wives last. name. >> Why? I also think it's. >> because it's unusual. >> Do you want to be the unusual guy at the. bar? [laughter]. >> I mean, not no. It depends. Is it like, oh, I think this guy's. >> Mrs. Cottonman. Yeah, >> THINK ABOUT THIS [laughter] CAREFULLY. >> I THINK THAT WOULD BE so fun.

>> to sign everything as like Carter Cona. Yeah, >> it could, you know what? It could be. your natural evolution because like I. look I look at all this the stuff, not. all the stuff that you've written. Um, but I I was going back into some of your. older writings and one of the first. pieces I could find was the one that you. did for Miz Magazine, >> right? That's that's I think you still. an intern. Yes. Yes. >> And it was a piece about um why why. aren't condoms designed for female. pleasure? >> You know what I mean? >> I have no memory of writing this. What's.

the answer? >> No. No. The question you were asking the. question you were saying like why aren't. they why are they not considering why is. it like how does it fit on the penis? Does it work well on the man's penis? Does he like it? Does it work well for. him? Does it feel this? Does it feel. that? But you like but none of this work. and none of this research is around but. how does it feel for her? And as I was. reading that and then reading through. your book, I went, "Oh, wow. This is. it's it's cool to see somebody's. trajectory. and and and watch them." You you know, like we always meet people as they are. now, but it's cool to meet them as they.

sort of were at a different time. And it. made me wonder like what was the first. thing that got you obsessed with the. topic of sex, how we view sex, why sex. is important to a society, a culture, like what was that first lightning bolt. in your world? Oh, I mean, I think it. was one of the stories I used to open up. the book, which is that I was. pathologically obsessed with my own. virginity. I was so upset to be a. 17-year-old virgin. I thought I was the. >> upset. I thought I was the last. 17-year-old virgin on the planet. >> Might have been.

>> I mean, it felt like it. [laughter]. >> Like, I fully My one of the last girls. in my friend group to lose her virginity. texted me during class that she had lost. it cuz she cut school. >> and Yeah. had sex with this guy on her. laundry room floor. I mean, it was. great, it sounded like. And I kept it. together for the rest of school. And. then I got into the car when my mom. picked me up from school and I just. burst out sobbing because I was so upset. over the fact that I had.

>> You're the last one standing. >> I know. I am. >> Did you tell your mom why you were. crying? >> Oh, yeah. Of course. >> Wait, of course. Yeah. >> Oh, there's no of course in my Wait, so. your mom's like, "Why are you crying?". And you're like, "Well, cuz cuz I can't. get some.". >> Yes. And she was like, you know, it's. fine. Like, everybody loses it at. different times. It's not a big deal. And I was like, >> these are the families I watched in. movies and thought never existed. >> But also, we're talking how people were. born to be villain. I mean, they're. villain. >> Yeah. The villain origin story, the. opposites, >> like Carter Sherman, the last highman.

[laughter]. >> That's my next book. Yeah. >> Can you imagine, Eugene? >> Let's Let's just play. I'm going to I'm. going to I'm going to give you I'm going. to take you through time. We're going to. transport you to a black family, a a. South African family. >> to be exact. >> To be exact. >> Okay. I will play Carter Sherman. This. Trevor Noah as Carter Sherman. >> All right. And then I am I am going to. >> And then you will be you will be my mom. and dad. You can be both at the same I. want parent Sherman but in South Africa.

>> Who was in the car with you that day? >> My mother. Just my mom. >> Yeah. So just just the two of us. All. right. And action. >> and then. >> [crying and laughter]. [laughter]. >> You know what? If you don't stop. behaving like a white girl in this car, I'm going to drop you off now. >> Sorry, Mom. Sorry, mama. Sorry. It was. just such a hard day, Mom. It was such a. hard day. >> What happened? >> My friend texted me, Mom, and I found.

out [laughter]. that I'm the last virgin. I'm the only. person who's not getting sex. Mama, >> what? >> YOU HAD A PHONE AT SCHOOL. >> [laughter]. [laughter]. >> OH MAN. OKAY. WAIT. So your mom. >> No, she shouldn't have had that. [laughter]. >> Okay. Wait. So So your mom your mom. goes, "Don't worry. It'll happen in. time.". >> Yes. And then I was like, "Well, did you.

were you a virgin when you were my age?". And she was like, "Oh, NO, NO, NO. [laughter]. >> YOUR mom Your mom is black. What's. wrong?" [laughter] Oh, this is amazing. Oh, wow. This is amazing. >> Really? Yeah. Oh, wow. >> I [laughter] She of course totally. forgot the story cuz you know how. parents just fully forget the. experiences that shape you forever. [laughter]. >> She forgot this and then I was. >> telling her the story again, you know, when I was writing the book and she was. like, I can't believe I said that. I. really should have lied. And I was like, okay, I get it. Like, you are not a.

virgin at 17. Cool. Thank you for that. [laughter]. She really wanted to impress upon me. Yeah. Yeah, but [laughter]. I feel like I FEEL LIKE THAT story. >> Oh, man. Sorry. [gasps]. >> It's it's it's the perfect jumping off. point into. into what you know it's I don't know if. there's right or wrong in it. I think. rightly and wrongly our obsession with. sex cuz on the one there's one part of. my brain that goes why are we so. obsessed with sex. There's another part. of me that always goes like why aren't.

we more obsessed with sex in that it is. it is the thing that means most of us. are here. >> Yeah. It is the reason the human race. will or will not continue in many ways. >> But what I love about your book is and. and we'll we'll go through like you know. all the different topics that you get. into in every every single one of the. chapters. I think you do it amazingly is. like it it's not necessarily our. obsession with sex that's wrong. It's. what elements of sex we're obsessed with. >> that become detrimental to a society. And so like let's let's talk about. virginity. You know, when you look at.

virginity throughout the decades, it's. amazing how it changes because you're. you're talking about crying because. you're the last virgin and then you just. rewind time or go to a different place. and the the tears are because people. aren't a virgin. Do you know what I. mean? >> Right. It I mean for so long virginity. was something to be prized and in many. places of the world is still something. to be prized particularly for women. like it is essential to maintain your. virginity in a lot of places at risk of. >> I mean potentially even death depending. on where you are in the world. >> And so it is kind of stunning how.

quickly that has flipped here in the. United States where it is seen as lame. to be a virgin past a certain age. >> And I was really struck in writing the. book that the feeling that I had that it. was so uncool to be a virgin was shared. by so many young people I talked to. Like all of them felt like having held. on to their virginity for as long as. they did, even if they lost their. virginity early on, like that was the. wrong age to do it. >> Oh wow. >> I talked to one young man who like as. soon as at 14 he started feeling really. bad that he at 14. Yeah. That he had.

>> going down. Yeah. >> Well, but it's interesting because. younger people are actually having less. sex than previous generations. So these. young people are telling themselves, "Oh, I'm so lame for not having sex.". But it doesn't match the reality that. like most of their peers probably aren't. having sex at this point. >> So do you find that are people just. lying about [clears throat] having sex. or are they. >> which one is it? >> If [laughter] if everyone thinks they're. lame for not having sex but they are. having less sex than ever before. >> I don't know if it's lying so much as we.

don't really have open conversations. about sex. I think the extent to which. we talk about sex in public is. oftentimes to stigmatize sex. Or when. you talk about sex amongst your friends, you're oftentimes like not lying, but. maybe embellishing stories or talking. about like only the good stuff. >> You're not really discussing the. complexity of it or maybe your own. feelings. >> about how much sex you're having, how. much sex you're not having, what your. last sexual experience was like. And so. I think that we're not really able to. have conversations that get into the. nuances of sex and the role that it.

plays in our lives because I think that. we see sex oftentimes as something that. like should be private. And I'm not. saying it's not something that can't be. deeply personal and something that you. should hold for yourself, but I do think. that we underestimate the ways that. what's going on in public shape our. approach to sex and shape even our. ability to have the kind of sex that we. like. >> Yeah. Yeah, there's some there's some. parts of the book where it feels like it. feels like you're you're forcing us to. ask the question. who [snorts] is obsessed with whose sex. and why and what does it what does it.

mean? You know, like when I when I was. reading through I was thinking of you, you know, going through the decades and. there's always these new moments in. media where they'll be like, "Hookup. culture, is it out of control? Is there. hookup c? What does it mean for your. kids?" You know, and there's those news. headlines and then you like fast forward. a few years and they'll be like, "There's a virginity recession. those. who and there's like they always have. these like these these catchphrases. >> Yeah. >> But it always focuses on young people. That's something your book really made. me realize. I hadn't thought of it. before, but they very seldom are talking.

about 50 year olds or 40ome year olds or. 60 year olds even. It's always focused. on a peculiar thing that is happening in. and around young people's sex. Like why. do you think that is? When you. researched it, what did you find? >> Why do we love telling young people that. they're doing sex wrong? >> Yeah. I mean, I think that in a lot of. ways, like controlling how young people. have sex means you control the future. >> You can reset the narrative about what. an American family should look like, what an American life should look like, how to be good in the United States, depending on how you condition young.

people to think about sex. I mean, I. would also argue that there's probably. some element amongst people as we get. older and maybe lose more of our sex. appeal that we feel like. >> jealous. >> Yes. Yeah. like we want to control these. young people who are sort of like, you. know, rising up, flourishing, what have. you. But I think that there is also a. great political utility in telling young. people how to live their lives and in. particular making them feel certain. types of ways about sex and making them. afraid of certain kinds of. >> Yeah, absolutely. I feel like you've. nailed it and I guess that's why you are.

a great author and um. >> Well, I don't know about great author, but thank you. >> Yeah, >> you don't be Hey, you're Eugene Cer. You. don't forget that. >> Thank you, Trevor. Yeah, thank you so. much. You I don't care what happens in. your life, you never forget that, right? Yes, she's a great author and you might. be useless at everything, but you're. still Eugene Kaer. >> Thank you. >> Your name has a what? What did you say? >> Your name has a it's a musicality to. musicality. You don't forget that. >> Yeah, >> guys. I don't know what to say. Um I'm. touched. I mean, thank you, Eugene.

Thank you for seeing me, guys. We see. you. >> You're welcome. We can all go now. We're. done here. Yeah. The [laughter]. internet. What was your question? My thing is, you're absolutely right. It. almost feels like sex, money, religion. are the only levers that parents can. still use to control their children. And. once they've lost one, they'll try to. cling on to another because while. they're still your depend, you can tell. them what car to drive, what how they. must do at school because you are. paying.

>> Yeah. >> And then you can also tell them, yeah, if you become morally corrupt. >> by having sex, all of this goes away. Yeah. >> But I don't necessarily think at least. here that it is parents that are passing. on this messaging to young people. telling them that certain kinds of sex. are bad or that they should be ashamed. or afraid of certain kinds of sex. I. think it is institutions like in general. most Americans believe that it is okay. to teach young people about more than. abstinence in sexed. Okay. They do.

accept that premarital sex is a normal. part of life. They would like their. young children to know well maybe not. young children but they would like their. children to be provided with age. appropriate. >> uh medically accurate information about. things like condoms and STI and. pregnancy prevention. >> Yeah. >> But what we see instead in this country. is an extreme support among politicians. and institutions for absence only sexed. The US government has since 2000 poured. more than $2 billion into absence only. sex ed which in general does not work.

$2 billion. >> $2 billion. >> into convincing people. >> that they should not have sex. >> until marriage. >> $2 billion. >> We're in the wrong business. [laughter]. >> No. >> Who did I get? Did I get Trevor Noah or. Trevor Weber? >> WE'RE LIKE, "WHAT? YOU JUDGE ME?" $2. [laughter] billion. >> It's And I mean, and this continues. under Democratic administrations. It's. not like just Republican presidents are. in favor of absence only sexed. Every.

year hundreds of millions of dollars are. flowing to absence only. >> What is what is their like to play. devil's advocate? What is their argument. for? What is what is their intention. before I assume anything? >> Yeah. I mean it's true that absence is. the only way to totally avoid getting. things like STI or getting pregnant. And. but I think that that is not only the. message that's communicated through. absence only sexed. oftentimes absence. only sex ed has been embedded with. specific notions around like who what a. man should be or what a woman should be. or what a family should look like and so.

I think for many of the advocates of. absence only sex this is about creating. a kind of American family that looks a. lot like the American family of the. 1950s which is to say like two very. young people getting married because in. the 1950s the average age of marriage. dropped to an unprecedented I think it. was 20 for women and 22 for men. >> Wow. So, it's a man and a woman get. married. They have 2.5 kids. Man works. at home. >> I've always Yeah, I've always loved. that.5, >> but never in black families have I heard. of a.5. [laughter].

>> Never. >> It's always Maybe it's like always the. possibility of more children. >> It's about your neighbor's child. They. have three and you have two. >> That's the That's the five. That's the. half. >> Okay, got it. >> Yeah. And I mean implicit in this is the. idea that this family is white because. like this was not the reality for black. families in the 1950s. This was how. white families in the 1950s lived. Yeah. They the white families had the two had. the.5. >> And so I think that a lot of these. absence only advocates like they're not.

just really talking about sex. >> Yeah. They're talking about a lifestyle. They're talking about a way to be a way. to be perceived or they're talking about. a way that they want the United States. to look. >> Oh damn. Damn. So when you dig into it, you know, like. the when I came across your work, it was. it was around there were all these. headlines about the sex recession. That's what that's what got me intrigued. cuz I'd be reading the news and then all. of a sudden I'd see a headline, sex. recession. I was like, what what is. this? And you and you click into it and. it was like Gen Z are not having sex.

They're having less sex than ever. before. The sex is going down. No sex. for Gen Z. What does that mean for your. children? and you'd see all these. headlines. and you rarely in truly one of the most. brilliant ways. You break down what. people are missing is that it's not a. sex recession because like kids are like. a no sex or I don't want sex or you go. into the nuanced ideas in and around. sex. Intimacy, the responsibility, the. bonds that people have.

>> What do you think people miss when they. just go Gen Z doesn't want to have sex? I think we take the idea of sex as being. like good in and of itself for whatever. reason. Even though there's so much. shaming around sex, it's like treated as. a bad thing, a knee-jerk bad thing that. the sex recession is going on. >> Yeah. >> And I think we should be asking. ourselves like to why does it matter if. young people aren't having sex? Cuz like. to be honest, I don't really care if. young people are having sex or not. Like. what I care about is whether or not they. are willing to be vulnerable, whether or.

not they learn skills like how to risk. rejection and how to handle rejection. and what it means to connect with other. people, not just sexually, but. platonically and romantically. And so. like the reason I I find all these. headlines about the sex recession to be. very interesting is because I think we. don't actually interrogate what sex is. or means or the role that it plays in. our lives. which goes back to this. earlier question. >> that you were asking about like what are. we not talking about when we talk about.

sex and I think that that's what we're. not really talking about and I think the. way that the sex recession headline. happens is it sounds really dramatic and. you can understand why people would. avoid having sex cuz sex is kind of fun. >> but I think that it's. >> I like the way you say kind of fun. >> I mean it well kind of fun kind of fun. >> I like it I've [laughter]. enjoyed it in my time. >> you know kind of kind of fun. [laughter]. >> Was Sex is kind of fun. >> I'm not against it. >> That's a great sticker, by the way. Sex.

is kind of fun. >> It's kind of fun. It's breaking news. right here. I don't [laughter] know. I. don't know if anyone's heard. >> We'll be right back [music] after the. short break. This episode is presented by Whole Foods. [music] Market. Eat well for less. You. know how Thanksgiving always sneaks up. on you? One minute you're eating. leftover Halloween candy and the next. everyone's arguing about who's making. what for Thanksgiving dinner. Who are.

you talking to? Luckily, Whole Foods. Market makes it easy to pull it all. together. With great prices on turkey, sales on baking essentials, and everyday. low prices from the 365 by Whole Foods. Market brand, you can actually prep for. the holiday without losing your mind or. your budgets. Yo, why are you speaking. like that? They've got highquality. organic produce and grab-and-go sides, which honestly save your life when you. said you'd bring something and. completely forgot to cook. Is this an. ad? Did you just teleport us into an ad?

The 365 brand is all about better. everyday essentials, affordable pantry. staples, baking musthaves. All the. basics that still meet Whole Foods. Markets quality standards. So whether. you're hosting, contributing a dish, or. just showing up hungry, [music] Whole. Foods Market has everything you need to. make this holiday season easier and more. delicious. We're sponsored. [music] Shop. everything you need for Thanksgiving now. at Whole Foods Market. Can we go back to. the episode?

So when you talk to Gen Z, when you talk. to young men, young women, you know, however people identify, like across the. board, people are saying that at that. age, they generally have a different. relationship to sex than maybe the. mainstream would think they should have. But how do how do they express. themselves? What what do they say their. views on sex are or aren't? What what is. what is happening from the inside? >> I mean, there's definitely no.

>> nothing's happening on the inside. No, that's that's not what I meant. Eugene, that was a great joke, but that's not. what I meant. >> Sorry. Yes, >> I appreciate that. I love a sex pun. I. want to be really clear. Um I don't know. if the headline or the title of the book. made that clear, [laughter] but uh I. mean I think it's it depends on who. you're talking to. like people, these. young people that I interviewed more. than 100 people under 30 for the book. And so like every conversation felt. really different depending on where. these people had come from and what. their backgrounds were and you know how.

they identified their sexual orientation. or their gender. >> But I think. >> what was uniform amongst these young. people is they really hadn't been asked. a lot of the questions that I was asking. them. They all virtually all of them had. had sex education that they thought was. incompetent. There was a lot of. references to if you've seen the movie. Mean Girls, you know how coach Carr says. like if you have sex you will die. A lot. of people unprompted brought up that. exact analogy to me and said that that's. what their sex ed was like.

>> But then beyond that, they a lot of them. had never they didn't have parents like. mine. They couldn't talk to them about. sex. They didn't have friends that they. felt like they could speak openly about. sex with. And so I think a lot of them. enjoyed being able to have these. in-depth conversations because each of. these interviews ran like maybe 90. minutes. >> Yeah. Um, and I think particularly what. I found was interesting, there was kind. of a gender divide that happened. >> Yeah. >> Which is that a lot of the young women. and also a lot of the queer folks I.

interviewed, they came to the table with. more to say. >> Okay. >> They had thought about it even if they. hadn't had these conversations before. Whereas a lot of the young men I. interviewed had not necessarily thought. about or even like come to the table. with things to talk about. And I thought. that my theory around that is I feel. like the young women and the queer. people had understood that their sexual. desires or their interests maybe created. more friction for them because like. those desires, those interests. >> were not treated as as being as. important.

>> as young men's interests, young straight. men's interests. Whereas the young men. >> like they it sort of took them longer to. come to start thinking about some of. this stuff because they hadn't really. had to put as much thought into it. >> Yeah. And it's it's interesting because. society. >> tells you what your story is a lot of. the time, you know? >> Yeah. >> So, >> if I if I think of it from a young man's. perspective, >> when you're a young man, you're sold a. story of yourself. You're sold a story. that tells you where you should be at a.

certain time, how you should be viewing. sex, what you And you think of like. there's like the fun version like Superb. Bad, a movie like Super Bad or for me. growing up, American Pie, you know what. I mean? It's just this you got to lose. your virginity by prom, man. You got to. lose it by prom, man. Come on. You get. what I'm saying? But there's this idea. and even in those story and don't get me. wrong, those are comedy. I'm not saying. don't make them. >> But society is telling you a story as a. young man about your relationship with. sex. >> and what your relationship with sex. means about you and your your success in. life. >> And I can only imagine, you know, if.

you're a woman, uh you know, if you're. queer, if you're any if you identify as. anything, there's a very different. relationship. And maybe maybe you have. less influence and more room to think. about it, but also less support maybe. for for lack of a better. >> to make it real or to see it out in the. real world. >> There is this concept that I came across. while I was uh reporting the book called. hegemonic masculinity. >> Hemonic mas masculinity. >> Yeah. Which is a sort of weighty word. for I think something that people.

understand very easily which is that. there are a lot of very narrow ideas. about what a man should be. Yeah. And. like in particular when it comes to sex, like men should be big, strong, tall, emotionless cave men who are good at. obtaining sex and always want to have. sex. >> Good at obtaining it. >> Yes. >> And also want it. >> Also want it. So like there's not a lot. of space. >> in those stereotypes for men to have the. feelings that they do have about sex. And I feel like we've done a very good.

job in the United States over the last. 50 years of expanding the ways that we. think about like women's relationship. with sex in some ways. Um, and you know, even if it's harder for those young. girls that I was interviewing or the. young queer folks I was interviewing, it's harder for them to see this out in. the real world or they have to think. about it more and they have all these. ideas like swirling around inside them. But like we haven't even created the. space for men to start having those. conversations or thinking about those. stuff for themselves. And so I when I. was interviewing these young men, they. talked a lot about dealing with those.

stereotypes and feeling like they had to. be a particular kind of way. >> Yeah. I remember having a yeah a. conversation about this. It was um I I. forget where this was but there was. there were there was a panel that was. being hosted and there were some really. interesting um psychologists talking. about it and then afterwards there was a. little breakoff and everyone was just. chatting [snorts] and one of the. therapists there they there were family. therapists, sex therapists, all of this. They said something that stuck with me. for years. They said, "We've lived in a. world where men have been taught that.

they only think about sex and sex has no. feelings. And we've taught women that. sex is only their feelings and it. defines them as a human being and you. you know it's it's the most it's the. most valuable powerful like oh this is. your and so you you have this imbalance. where men go stick it in good times and. then women like it is my sanctity." And. she was saying that no, no, no, the. truth lies somewhere in the middle. Men. need to be taught that they do have an. emotion. They do have a little bit of a.

fear. They do have a connection. They do. have a warmth. They do have a. tenderness. They you get what I'm. saying? And then women can also be. taught like, hey, there's a liberation. in going like, it is yours to wield as. you please. It is not only your. sanctity, it's just yours. So, you know. what I mean? In the same way someone can. choose to spend their Friday night drunk. or reading a book, there's got to be a. freedom in saying to people, your sex is. your sex. do with it as you please and. don't think that it defines you in like. a singular forever. Do you know what I'm. saying? >> I I think all of this is and it makes. total sense. I think all of this much.

like anything else is a byproduct of. marketing. I think sex products don't. need to use sex to market anything. anymore. For example, cigarette smoking. >> Mhm. >> going um remember those ads where you. used to see guys and girls at the beach. having a a bonfire? >> Yeah. Yeah. car ads. There's this famous Mustang one. where there's a woman and the man and. the arm over. Have you noticed how car. ads look now? It's usually one guy. driving it being responsible.

>> or it's like a family or. >> Yes. But it's never. >> car ads are wildly gendered. I have to. say they really are. >> Yeah. They'll pop up when I'm watching. television. I'm like, gosh, this is like. it's like a car for big strong men or a. car for families. And like those are the. two genders of cars. There's [laughter]. there's they don't sell the M3 or the. the the whatever fancy super sports car. with a man and a woman. The only time. you see that is when you watching those. videos of people in Monaco. So now. people have sold have have brands have. stopped being interested in selling sex.

to use to sell a product. So I think now. when kids that are younger gen Z's look. this is just my opinion when they look. at the kind of women of the people that. they idolize they know they'll never. have that woman. when they look at their. favorite sports star, their favorite. rapper, and they look at the kind of. women that they're with, I don't think. they see themselves with that kind of. person. >> So, you think that's affected how they. see sex because of that? >> Yes. But that's why kids now when you. ask them, "What do you want to be?" They. say, "Rich or. >> famous?". >> Yes. Cuz they know that's the only way. to get the kind of girls that they want.

Yes. Because now the normal is not. marketed anymore because it's one or the. other. It's either a guy macho macho guy. in a car by himself or you have a whole. guy with five kids and the person like. I'm 16. I don't want I don't want either. of these. >> Yeah, if I'm going to have sex must come. with these ones. >> I mean, but it's interesting though. because young people are growing up on. in a on an internet that is saturated. with sex. Like they're being exposed to. so many more different kinds of. sexuality than we ever had growing up. I. mean, I'm 31, so I grew up a bit on the.

internet, but not in the way that young. people are now. And so I think that this. is also sort of one of the questions. that perplexes people with the sex. recession is like how is it possible. that young people are running into like. every possible kind of sex that they. want and probably a few that they don't. on the internet and yet not having. >> IRL sex. >> And so I think that it's it's really. hard to say what the messaging is that. young people are getting around sex. right now because. >> the world of the internet is just full. of all kinds of different sex. >> Is that part of the problem though in. like.

>> exactly? Yeah, >> it is. You know, when we when we think. when we think about sex, >> Yeah. >> and you you talk about this in the book, it is pretty crazy that one of the most. important aspects of your life as a. human being, >> something that will stick with you until. you probably leave this planet is not. taught to you in any formal way. for the. like yes you can say there sex ed but. you know as as you write and as we've. seen sex ed has has dropped its um the. the window that it thinks of sex through.

so it tells you like the the the the the. physical function of sex this is a penis. it goes into a vagina [laughter]. >> hey baba. >> we're still from Africa [laughter]. >> and so no but I'm saying like when you. think of that. what do you think that's also done to to. not that it was better per se, but. >> there's a flattening of sex and its educ. and the education that goes around it. >> It means that you have to go to the.

internet. >> That doesn't equip people with the tools. to know what sex encompasses, >> right? Cuz all they hear in school is. like don't have sex, you'll die and then. they open up their phone or their laptop. or whatever and then they see porn. I. mean, 3/4 of American teenagers have. seen porn by the time they're 18. And so. I think and what porn purports to do is. like show you what sexual pleasure looks. like and what it feels like to give it. and what it feels like to receive it. And so especially if you are coming from. a school that teaches you next to. nothing about sex.

>> Like of course porn is going to feel. like oh well this is sex. This is what I. should use instead. >> And like young people do say like oh I. know that porn is not accurate. >> And yet [clears throat] they still rely. on it for this. >> But what does it not tell you? So if if. I'm if a kid is watching porn thinking, "Oh man, this looks like so much fun.". What is it not telling them? >> I mean, it's not telling them a lot. Like, cuz porn is scripted, right? Yeah. It's basically what I know. I'm so. sorry. I'm yet again breaking news.

You're on the podcast. >> Mr. penis over here is surprised. [laughter] But. >> Captain Penas, [laughter]. >> I mean, it's basically like I use this. analogy in the book, but it's basically. like if you learn to drive by playing. Grand Theft Auto, right? >> It's just not It has very little to do. with what real life sex looks like. >> And. >> what does Carter real life sex? cuz. obviously it's bang bang.

swing from the chandeliers. Please send. me that link. >> Yeah, [laughter]. >> please send me that link, Eugene. >> I got you, fam. >> We'll put that in the show notes. [laughter]. >> Let's get that link to everyone. I want. to watch that video. >> It sounds acrobatic. >> It really [laughter] sounds fantastic. and classy. There's a chandelier. >> Oh yeah, this is a really nice set that. they [laughter] probably. >> It's called Sole. >> [laughter]. >> Oh, so Lelay, I see what you did there. Nicely done. >> Wow. Nicely done.

>> You need to catch up on the sex, [laughter] by the way. I don't feel like. you're really pulling your weight. >> So, what So, if if that's advertised. clearly through these clips that they. watch and these movies that they watch, what is the reality of it? Because we're. so quick to say that's not realistic. But what's the realistic part of it? >> What is realistic about porn? >> No. What is realistic about sex? that. porn is not showing people. >> Oh, I mean it's it's not showing like. communication. It's not showing I mean I. think the things that make people good.

at sex are an ability to communicate, having a sense of humor, a willingness. to be awkward cuz like let's be honest, sex in addition to being kind of fun is. usually fairly inelegant. And like none. of those things are present in porn. because porn is very sleek and scripted. and these are professionals operating on. a closed track. And that's fine. I. really don't want the message from me or. from the book to be that porn is bad. It's just porn has very little to do. with the way people and particularly.

young people [ __ ] around. And so what I. found was interesting in the book is I. kind of had thought that young people on. the right would be opposed to porn. I. thought that young people on the left. would have better feelings about it. But. what I found inside is that young people. almost routinely thought that porn was. bad for them and they felt that it had. warped their sexuality. There's this. concept in sociology called the deep. story which is basically the story that. people feel is true. And that story can. have more power than the actual facts.

And we see this in politics all the. time, right? People vote for the guy who. they just have a good feeling about even. if he doesn't actually align with any of. your opinions. And so the deep story. among young people is that porn has been. very bad for them. And they feel like in. particular because they can't talk to. their parents about sex or their friends. and because sex ed has so failed them. that they're just stranded in front of. all of this pornography and they've just. been left to deal with it on their own. In particular, one of the things that. really stuck with me is they really felt.

that porn had normalized rough sex and. in particular choking. If you're under. 40, you are almost twice as likely to. have been choked during sex. >> as someone under 40, >> if you're under 40 compared to people. over 40. And like if you like choking, that's fine. Just do it safely and. consensually. And the thing is that most. people or many people I should say are. not asked for consent before they're. choked. And choking is, you know, it can. be strangulation. It can be actually. very dangerous, >> right? >> And so it was fascinating to me to talk. to these young people and they would so.

many of the young women I talked to just. would relay spontaneously that they had. been choked during sex. Like there was. one young woman who told me that, you. know, they called it a love squeeze in. her high school. And again, it's just. one of those things where if you like. it, go for it. But it's not a normal. part of sex. It's not like an average. part of sex. And you do have to have a. real conversation about it before you do. it. And that's just not something you. see in porn. >> Yeah. As as you're saying this, I. realize. the paradox of not having a thought out.

and. centralized form of education means that. the normal becomes defined by the. abnormal. >> Oh wow. Yeah. >> Do you know what I mean? Cuz you just. said choking is not normal. And then I. went. >> except when it is, >> right? >> Because everything that's in sex was not. normal at some point. I remember when I. was how old was I? I think I was 12 or. 13 years old and I remember seeing.

it was like distant aunts and uncles but. they kissed using their tongues and I. remember my mind was like what just I'd. never seen adults do that. >> like because at that time in my life. that was not normal. Even in TV shows. people kissed it was just like a smooch. You just plucked your lips and you. >> camera swirls around them. Yeah, the. camera just Yeah, it's exactly that. >> You know what I mean? And then one day. there were tongues and there were more. tongues and there were more tongues. But. now if you said to somebody, "Kissing. with your tongue is not normal," they go. like, "What what are you talking about?

That's that's weird that you're not. opening your mouth. What's wrong with. you?" So the the paradox then becomes. that normal does exist or or rather like. the Overton window of normal exists, but. what's really wrong is is how it's being. defined. >> Mhm. You know, it's like if nobody's. talking about. the thing that's not happening in porn, then porn becomes the only teacher in in. in essence. You know what I mean? >> Well, the thing is they're also like. they're not even really talking about it. either, right? Silence is $2 billion to.

be quiet. Yes. Exactly. >> And so they're just they're not even. talking about it and it's going on. behind closed doors. And you know, there's been like I was reading stories. and studies where like women would talk. about having a guy without asking use. his belt around their neck. uses what? >> His belt. >> His belt. >> Yes. Oh jeez. >> Or like a necklace to choke her. And. it's like, you know, these are things. that can be dangerous. >> And if you like it, do it safely. consensually again. >> But we're not really, as the internet. has shown us, more and more different. kinds of sex and maybe help normalize.

more and more different kinds of sex. Sex education has receded as a resource. that people can find in institutions. I. also think there's a there's a. [clears throat] there's an ex like um. >> there's almost an amplification effect. that can happen with algorithms and. social media cuz you you're saying this. and I'm thinking about all the videos. young men see where women are mocking. them for the type of boring sex they. have. Do you know do you know what I. mean? It's not abnormal to see like. young men going, "Oh yeah, like like you. still out here." Like you'll see these.

videos and I'm not blaming those people. You make whatever video you want to. make. But you'll see some of these. videos where they be like, "Oh yeah, when he still wants to hug you before da. da and you know like a little Tik Tok. and it's and it is funny, but I can also. imagine being a young man and going, "Oh. man, I guess I've got to know this stuff. because if I don't know it, do I know. sex? >> And do I want to be mocked? And do I. want to be teased? And do I want to be. to to to rewind to back in my day?" But. I remember in in high school how boys.

and obviously I wasn't spending all the. time with the girls, but how boys. particularly were mocked if they didn't. like seem to know things. And back then. it was much less sex-based, but it was. still do you know how to do that? Do you. know how to finger somebody? And it was. like. it's like if you don't know exactly like. that, Eugene, see I taught you well. So. [laughter]. but it was. >> this podcast is not sex ed. I just. You said $1 billion. You had us there.

>> Yeah. You had us there. Two billion.$2. [laughter]. billion. We're coming for that billion. We're doing our best here. >> But no, what I Yeah, it's it's. >> Do do you see what I mean? The conundrum. is is like you you you're in a world. where. >> it's as you as you so eloquently say, you've got women who are saying, "Oh. man, this is my experience of the men. and what they're doing." And I also go, "Yeah, there's a world where the men are. going. This is my experience of what. I've been told a woman likes." And. because I don't meet a woman until I'm. having sex with her, I don't know. actually what the thing is and I don't. want to get there and then not know what.

the thing is. And you don't want to be. the fumbling guy and then what? So to. your point because the the original sin. is committed by not having the. education, >> everyone is now bumping. It's the blind. leading the blind. Well, it also I mean. it goes back to what we're talking about. with like these stereotypes of. masculinity where it's this idea that. men have to know everything about sex. and should be good at sex and like. there's no room for men to ask questions. including of their partner which is the. person they should be directing these. questions at because it's seen as not. being cool including often times by. women. It's not like oh men are just. telling men to be this way. There's a.

lot of messaging from all kinds of areas. including from women at men to tell them. to be a particular kind of way when it. comes to sex. >> Yeah. And I should say one of the things. I wanted to do in the book was also. explain like porn is not a monolith. Yeah. >> And a lot of the young women I talked to. their the kind of porn that they liked. wasn't video porn. It was something like. erotica or fanfiction or romance novels. which often times can also feature rough. sex. >> But because they also had this idea of. like rough sex from those forms of.

pornography like they brought that to. the table as well. And so if these young. men are watching video porn. >> where rough sex is being normalized and. these women are reading porn where rough. sex is being normalized, the story that. young women were telling me and the. story that young men were telling me and. the sort of deep story among young. people was like that's how. >> rough sex becomes just treated as just. another kind of sex and not something. you need to have a conversation about. >> And I I should also say I do want to say. we actually don't really know what porn. does to us. Like the science on porn is.

incredibly muddied. It's very hard to. find a control group these days of. people who haven't seen internet porn. >> Oh geez. Yeah, that's a good point. >> So, you know, to the extent that this is. the story that's being told, I find that. valuable and I find that interesting, but we don't actually know from a. scientific perspective exactly what is. happening to us and our sex lives. because of the proliferation of internet. porn. I think from just listening to you and. the research that you've done, the. people that you've spoken to, I think. the whole entire world is missing a big.

part of what sex education should be. Instead of uh sex health education, they. should focus more on sex mental health. education. >> Oh, >> their ability to connect or disconnect. should the act not go right. Because I. feel like a lot of men who I mean young. men who grow up to be men and how they. view relationships, it's usually having. to prove yourself and then finally when. the act is done, you realize you don't. have to be someone that you are not all. along because again of the. romanticization of relationships and the.

end goal being sex. And on the other. end, it's the now that we've done it, let's talk. >> Yeah. Well, advocates of comprehensive. sex, I would say like. >> healthy relationship education is also a. part of sex. a healthy relationship. >> Yeah. Like how to talk about your. relationships, your feelings, the sex. you want to be having. Like that could. also be a part of sexed. And honestly, the first time someone said that to me, I was like, "My mind has been blown.". [laughter] But cuz I thought I had. pretty good sex ed. Like my sexed I'm. from Seattle, Washington, which is a.

very liberal place. And it talked about. STI and it talked about condoms and it. talked about pregnancy prevention, but. it did do its best to pathize sex. Like. they had us watch a video of I think. this woman was giving birth to a 16. pound. >> baby which is huge. It's large. Yeah. What's the point of that video other. than to make me afraid? >> Traumatize you big babies out. [laughter]. >> Well. >> I am I would love to track down the. woman from [laughter] that video and be. like what's up? Why did you participate.

in this? >> That's one way to learn. >> Yeah. But and it didn't include like. they made sex seem scary even if they. were trying to provide me with the. resources much more so than other. schools do and they didn't talk about. like and here's how to talk to your. partner or here's how to talk to someone. you might be interested in. >> about not only sex but about just the. relationship. >> Is part of this because parents are also. saying I don't want my kids learning. about sex cuz you you you see that. happening more and more in America and I. mean but it it it flares up all over the.

world at different times. parents will. say, "No, no, no, no, no, no. Hey, you. don't know. You don't tell my kid. anything." And there's many parents who, I think, very naively think, "If they. don't hear about it, they won't know it. exists, you know." But, but how much of. it is that? How much how much of it is. it's like we we sort of blame the. schooling system, but parents often. times can shake what a schooling system. does or doesn't teach? >> I think it's a vocal minority of parents. who feel the way that you're describing. And I think we especially see that in. the United States post 2020 and post the.

pandemic. >> where you know we've always had a lot of. conversations around sex ed and a lot of. fighting around sex ed here in the US. but post 2020 I would say that those. fights have reached a new level where. people at schoolboard meetings for. example have just started spouting off. things that have nothing to do with. reality. So, I describe in the book um. there was in 2020 a schoolboard meeting. in Texas because Texas was changing its. sexed curriculum for the first time in.

two decades. And during this schoolboard. meeting, parents were coming up and. talking about things that I mean I. struggled to even understand what they. were saying because it didn't make any. sense. Like they were talking about I. kept on having to rewind and be like am. I hearing this right? But they were. talking about like, you know, teachers. grooming students and teachers grooming. students not only for sex but into being. transgender, which is not a thing. And. they were talking about, oh, comprehensive sexed is just. >> a way to, you know, make students gay or.

trans. And consent even of itself, consent even by itself is a gateway word. is what one um actually schoolboard. member said where they were saying like. this is a gateway word. So that like I. believe he said that like Planned. Parenthood and Nambla the male was it. manboy boy student man boy. national man boy a national American man. boy love association sorry that took me. a minute. >> to like consent is a gateway word so. that those organizations planned.

parenthood etc can sink their hooks into. these young people. >> and I'm paraphrasing what he said but it. was a very staggering thing to hear. right. >> and obviously. It doesn't have anything to do with. reality. >> Yeah. >> And so it got to the point where it's. like, oh, we can't even necessarily talk. about consent in schools because that is. a politicized word at this point. >> The tough thing is it doesn't have to. do, you know, to go back to what you're. saying about like a slither of porn, a. slither of people. I I I truly feel bad.

for those parents because I think they. sort of care the most. >> Do you know what I mean? Mhm. Think of. what you must feel like as a parent. You're watching the news. You see a. story about a teacher who had sex with. one of their students, man or woman. >> Mhm. >> You see another story where teachers had. sex with their students. You see a story. where this child was kidnapped or this. child was this. You see you see a story. of grooming. You see people come out and. say they were groomed from a young age. I it's so hard to say to that person cuz.

I I and I've been guilty of this, don't. get me wrong, cuz I would dismissively. go like that's not a thing. But then I'm. like, "Ah man, but how do you how do you. get through to people or how do you help. them balance out. the waiting of risk?" Because they're. saying, "I'm trying to protect my child. at all costs.". >> Mhm. >> And then you want to go, "Yes, but what. cost is too great? At what point are you. not protecting the child?" You know, cuz. It is a tough one because there are.

teachers who've molested kids. There are. kids who be, you know what I mean? It's. this. >> I mean the world is a scary place and. schools are a scary place. >> Yeah. But it's funny. I don't think the. world is a scary place in that way. No, genuinely. And I I don't mean this like. faciciously. >> I just think the world feels scarier. when you know everything that is. happening in it at the at the same time. But most of the world is not a scary. place. You know, like people like, "Ah, I'm scared of flying." But they're. scared of flying because of the plane. crashes we focused on. >> Yeah. But there's no new story about. planes that land. They just there just. aren't, you know, and and we do this.

with everything. And I'm not saying we. shouldn't focus on those things, but the. human brain is very difficult at. understanding how much or how little to. focus on something. >> depending on how much it's been told to. us, >> accurately gauging. It's, you know, >> well, I think also during the pandemic. in particular, you know, people were. trapped at home on their computers. looking constantly at bad news and. conspiracy theories proliferated. >> You said bad news. Oh wow. >> I was like [laughter] I've had those. during the pandmic trapped with bad. news. >> I was like amen.

>> There's nothing worse than lockdown with. bad news. Lockdown on it. >> And I'm like I know the stores those are. run out of razors. Now you. >> actually let's talk about social media. because you you talk about what you call. the fuckability trap, you know. >> Hey a. >> I'm sorry. Yes. >> Oh okay. [laughter]. >> I didn't realize that was approval. Thank you. Yeah. that what is it again? The fuckability. trap. >> I mean, I have to credit fuckability is. not my concept. It's a concept of this.

philosopher whose name I'm definitely. going to mispronounce. It's Amya. Sevastian. I'm so sorry. So sorry if I'm. mispronouncing that. But she is um a. philosopher who talks about basically. fuckability is sexual desire as. constructed by our our politics, right? Wow. which is the idea that like, you. know, how can we differentiate the ways. that like racism and sexism and all. other kinds of isms affect which bodies. are seen as most desirable. >> Um, so that's the definition of the.

fuckability trap. I don't know where. you're going with the actual. >> No, but but the trap that you were. talking about and you see this. >> this is where I like I get stuck because. it's so complicated and layered. You. talk about social media and how. >> we we're given these signals. We're. we've shown these signals. Post a. picture of yourself, you know, just. sitting in a park drinking your coffee. Yeah. Get a few likes. Post the same. picture in a bikini. >> Likes go up. Go back to a picture of you.

reading a book. H [clears throat] few. likes. Bikini, likes go up. And and and. >> am I reading in the bikini in this case? Is Yeah. [laughter]. Yeah. >> Cut. >> I mean, that's good conversation. >> I mean, look, everybody everybody wants. to be smart and hot. Like, that's the. goal. That is the goal. Can I tell? And. I can I tell you, we need to normalize. that. By the way, I'm. >> jealous of that line cuz I wish I had. it. >> NO, BUT IT'S TRUE THOUGH. OKAY. OKAY. [laughter]. >> But no, I I like this because I feel. like we we make it seem like it has to. be one or the other. We make it seem. like we also make it seem like it it.

shouldn't like exist. And maybe maybe. that goes into this this conversation, but but but like what did you notice in. how social media has played a role in. how we define ourselves and portray. ourselves in in in society in and around. sex? I think it is exactly what you're. talking about with the bikini photos and. the ways that those are valued more. So, there was one young man I was talking to. and I appreciated that he said this. where he was talking about, you know, if. he might see a girl that he likes on in. on Instagram, he might keep scrolling. and see another girl he likes, but. she'll be in a bikini and he's like,

"Well, I'm probably going to like her. more. Like, she's going to be more into. her." And that's I think this thing that. people have internalized, which is that. they understand their sexual value and. how to convey it online because they're. constantly getting feedback in the form. of likes and matches and follower counts. and they can quantify what makes them. appear to be sexually desirable to other. people. >> Yeah. Appear to be being the key phrase, >> right? And I think for young people who. grow up constantly having that kind of.

feedback loop, it leads to a kind of. self-objectification where they don't. think about their bodies and what their. bodies can do for them. They think about. what their bodies look like and how. other people think about their bodies. And that feeling is linked to all kinds. of negative outcomes like eating. disorders or low self-esteem or even. potentially people having less sex. because, you know, if sex is another. occasion for you to be judged and found. wanting, you're not going to do it. If. you feel like your body is perfect, has. to look perfect in order to be get. naked, you're probably just not going to. get naked.

>> Yeah. I think I think about when I was. young, >> Yeah. >> we thought the worst thing, you know, when society was talking about this, the. worst thing was the magazines have very. perfect bodies and perfect people. What. does this mean to you? And we thought. that that's the worst it could get. But. now you're on the cover of your own. magazine and no one's buying your. magazine. >> Yeah. >> Do you know what I mean? Like what does. that mean? >> And you can see it now. >> That would be devastating. >> But that's what's [laughter] happening. Think about it. Because before you could. go like, "Oh, that's a supermodel and. I'm not that and that's the beauty. standard." But the judgment wasn't about. you. You knew what people were aspiring.

to and you knew where you were maybe in. relation to it, but it wasn't about you. But now it's completely about you cuz. now you've put your magazine right next. to somebody else's magazine online. And. then a little button. >> tells you how your magazine stacks up. against somebody else's. And so now it's. it's not just an aspirational thing that. you cannot reach. >> It's a realistic one. >> Yeah. >> You see it here, >> right here and right now. >> Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And you know, also we've been.

given young people have been given many. more tools to make themselves appear. more attractive. Damn. >> There was one young woman I was talking. to who was talking about, you know, she. posts on TikTok a lot and she took. somebody else's filter and she didn't. realize that the filter had made her. cheeks look slimmer. And when she. accidentally removed the filter, she. realized, "Oh, I don't like my face this. way. I don't like the way my face. actually looks. I liked it with the. filter more.". >> She catfished herself. >> Yeah. I [laughter] mean, kind of. And. she was saying like, "That's a terrible. feeling." Yeah. >> Like looking at your own face and being.

disappointed by it. >> And so, not only are you like you're. given all the tools to change how your. body looks on social media, can't really. change your body in the same way without. a lot more money and probably some. surgery in real life. And so, you're. again just constantly being compared and. contrasted and falling short. >> Could Could that be one of the things? I. don't I don't know. I don't I haven't. done any research in this field, but. could that be one of the factors? If. people are living in a world where. they're able to augment themselves so. perfectly online, could it prevent them.

from interacting in real life? Because. >> you you to your what you just said, the. catfishing of it all, >> I know how I look online. >> I don't want to show up in person. >> cuz I can't I can't do anything. There's. no filter. >> I can't I can't match it. So if I stay. online, I never get disappointed. I keep. acrewing this feeling and this, you. know, but if I come into the real world, it all it all falls apart. Did you speak. to anyone where that happened? Were. there people who were more comfortable. existing as their full filter selves and. then wouldn't go into the real world.

anymore? >> I think that what has happened for young. people is like just so much more of. their lives has been outsourced online. and the pandemic contributed to this, right? Because these are young people. who are growing up like they didn't have. prom, they didn't have graduation, >> missed a few years of school. >> Yeah. They missed a lot of the sort of. moments. >> Yeah. The ways that the moments that. teach you how to handle being. embarrassed or being rejected or just. the nuances of human connection and so. instead they were on their screens all. the time and that for them replaced a. lot of those interactions. But there's.

nothing that can really replace an IR. >> real life battle experience. >> Exactly. I'm a big fan, me personally, of real life battle experience. And I. feel like there's nothing that will make. you tougher and nicer at the same time. than being done a favor. instead of being rejected. >> Cut. I'm going to tell you the truth. There's some moment back in my life. where I look back and I'm like, why did. you date me? >> But [laughter]. you but you know what it did for my. self-esteem. It took it from here to.

there. That was real battle. And also, so I've decided every year I do charity. drive. I date someone who I wouldn't. [laughter]. It's my outreach. >> So generous of you. Oh my god. >> I write it off with my taxes. I'm like, "No, this is time I will never get. back.". >> You are a philanthropist. >> A few a few tanks of gas that I used and. I put my credit card. I write it off and. I'm going, "Okay, this is my corporate. social responsibility." Like, >> so that that person goes home. What. they'll do is they'll say to themselves, "If that guy saw me, then someone else.

can see me." And we laugh, but there's a. lot of marriages that I think are based. on my theory because now people are. like, "Do [laughter] you know who I. dated?" Now they look at me going, "I. dated that guy." And the person behaves, but [laughter]. no, I love that idea that they're using. you as the bedroom. So they go like, I'm. just picturing a couple right now. And. then the husband is saying something. I. don't know if this is working for. working for you. Do you know how I used. to date and then they pull [laughter] up. your profile and like you dated him?

Yeah. >> Why is he wearing a bikini and reading a. book in the in [laughter] the park? >> He's smart and hot. Yeah. >> So, but that's my thing on on [laughter]. let's. >> but you're right. The good No, but I I. do like the point behind which is. beautiful and we forget that it's all. real life. >> Yes. >> We often will say like the the the bad. and the but man the good of real life as. well. Being real life accepted, being. real life chosen. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I mean, there's nothing to replace it. for sure. >> Nothing to replace the feeling of being. told,

>> "Look, man, I'm out of your league and. I've realized that I can do better in. life." And then at that moment, you. feel, you know, shattered, broken, but. you go, I look, if I were you, I would. totally do the same. And then you move. on. And then you start punching in your. weight class. And when you're in your. weight class, you're like, "No, man. I. actually can do better than you." And. then but I think the craft makra of. relationships is what's missing. It's. it's the end goal has become the win. where people I've heard people saying. how would I want to go out there and. meet people when I could be sitting here.

watching porn. >> I've heard people saying that. So I feel. like the the close quarter combatness of. dating that eventually leads to sex, the. adventure of it all has been has been. taken out. >> It's all outcome based. >> Yeah. Netflix. and then you're talking to your friends. online. You're watching girls that you. will never watching people having a good. time online. Where else with us? You had. to go out there and be rejected. So. that's why my outreach program is still. continuing till this day. I [laughter].

>> It's so beautiful, Eugene. >> Thank you, Trevor. >> So beautiful. >> I'm touched and I think inspired as. well. I think a lot of people don't. consider. Imagine what kind of impact. you would have with your reach. [laughter]. with. with your. everything. You can just the the impact. I mean you can have one in Harlem, the. Bronx. You can outreach even in Africa. You can do definitely do an outreach. where a person can say look who I took.

yourself and look I dated this person. and then you can just lift up your. self-esteem one girl at a time. sometimes a man here and there. But if. if anyone can do both, >> I've seen the things you do when no one. is looking. >> Thank you for seeing me, Eugene. Thank. you so much for seeing me. I've got you. That's me almost crying. Thank you, Sh. Beautiful. Over to you, G. >> Oh, thank you. [laughter] I don't have. anything to add. It was Yeah.

>> Don't press [music] anything. We've got. more. What now? After this, [music]. wait, [music] let's talk about sexing. Um, throughout time, the way humans have expressed their. sexuality has constantly evolved and. changed. and and you you spend a section. in the book talking about like, you. know, like how people see sexing and and.

what it should be and how they. communicate their sexuality to each. other. What would you say has been the. biggest change for like Gen Z from what. a previous generation might have. considered what's appropriate, not. appropriate, what they're doing or not. doing? Has there been a shift? >> I mean, it might be sexing. Yeah, >> I think that, you know, when I was. growing up, my parents were always like, you know, everything you put online, be. prepared for the New York Times to. publish on its front page, which. >> I know really puts the fear of the New. York Times into you. >> Um, [laughter]. but.

now I think like everybody sends nudes. Yeah. >> And that's just how it is. And I think. that there is a much more generational. acceptance that like yeah, probably, you. know, depending on the future of. American democracy, if we end up having. a younger president, that president will. probably have nudes out there. And. that's just how it is. >> And so I don't think that like sexing is. an inherently bad thing. I think it gets. stigmatized a lot of the time because. it's new and because it's new. >> Yeah. >> But one day it could be the norm. >> Ask not what pictures your president can. send to you. [laughter] Ask what.

pictures you can send to your president. [laughter]. >> That's the best Kennedy ever. [laughter]. He even did Kennedy with a with a bad. radio speaker. [laughter]. Kennedy's like, "I never started on. that.". >> I mean, look, if any president got a lot. of nudes, it was probably [laughter]. Kennedy. Let's be honest. >> I knew you had it, didn't you?

[laughter]. >> Thank you. >> Um, but yeah, and I don't think that I. think that we just like porn treat. sexing as a monolith and treat it as a. bad thing. And the thing is though that. by in so doing, similar to how we. pathize sex through sexed, >> we make it impossible for people to. handle it when something does go wrong. We don't create avenues for people to be. able to seek accountability or to even. feel better about themselves when their. nudes are leaked or shared often times. without their consent. And that kind of.

stuff happens all the time. and we just. blame those people, right, for having. sent out the nudes instead of. recognizing everybody sends nudes and. actually leaking somebody else's nudes. without their consent is a violation. >> But to your point, the difficulty, and I. think this is something we we struggle. with in society across the board, >> we love flipping between binaries, >> you know, and we think the equilibrium. gets reached when we go to the opposite. end of a spectrum, but it doesn't, >> you know, so people will go, "Oh, this. is unequal and let's switch to the.

complete opposite." Now it's then it's. like no now it's an unequal the other. way you know. >> and I remember like I think of. >> goes from exclusive to super inclusive. >> Yeah. And it's like but but if you think. of the um. >> Nelson Mandela for instance a lot of. people wondered why he said what he was. like he was like I do not seek the the. oppression of black people. I do not. seek the oppression of white people. I. do not. And people like why is he saying. that? >> Cuz he was like I want to be crystal. clear with you. I'm fighting for. equality. M.

>> I'm not fighting for a role reversal. >> And and sometimes people miss that and I. think when you're saying that. to go back to what your parents said. that is one of the dichotoies that we. also face in this world. One half of sending nudes. >> and your nudes getting leaked. >> is not your fault because somebody. leaked your nudes. >> Yes. >> One half is your fault. >> because you've sent nudes. >> Now I'm not saying you deserve it. Please don't get me wrong. I'm not. saying that. But I'm saying there's. there's like we don't want to live in a.

world where there's nuance. We don't. want to live in a world where there's. gray. But I think it's important for us. to say to each other and to the parents. and to also go like hey please know you. are making it more likely that a nude. can be I'm not saying it's good if it. happens to you and I'm not saying you. deserve it and I'm saying should. >> but just understand that there's a risk. that you're taking but on the other hand. even if that risk. >> if you are a victim of that I'm not. going to now blame you. >> Yes. >> But understand like the the the. complicated ramifications of this thing. you know. >> Yeah. I mean, I think in the flipping. from one side to the other, like you.

just it's a rejection of reality because. reality is always in the middle. And so, we can't actually acknowledge or grapple. with the nuances of reality if we're. constantly moving from one extreme to. the other. Oh, I like that. >> I'd even say it's the language that. people use. >> to not make that a crime. People call it. revenge porn. You're like, "No, porn is. an industry. It's a business with actors. with willing participants with. incentives. Someone leaking your nudes. is not revenge porn.". >> Yeah. >> Mhm. Yeah, it's not porn at all because. it was never porn in that way.

>> at all. Yes. So, I think the wording. around it gives these tech companies. plausible deniability because once they. get dragged in to what they allow. someone else to do as a proxy of someone. else's uh uh willingness, then they'll. be in trouble, right? >> Well, there's new I mean, advocates now. would say instead of using revenge porn, we should use terms like non-conensual. image abuse or. yeah, you nailed it. >> Yeah. And acknowledge Yes. to your point. like porn is an industry. People. participate in it for money. It's their. job. Like someone who's nudes leaks,

that is not them agreeing to be a. performer. That is them being. victimized. >> Yeah. It's a completely different thing. And now we've made it seem like they're. part of an industry that they're not, >> which. How do we expand that into the world of. dealing with sex and the and the way we. think about it? You know, you you talk. in the book about um college campuses. and how there's this swing that goes. back and forth in how college campuses. have dealt and then are now dealing with. sex that is consensual or non-consensual.

or somewhere in this gray area on. campus. What have you found in in the. has happened in the past few years? >> I think in general, college campuses are. often times treated as like ground zero. for all of the kinds of battles that. we're having in American life. um like. right now for example there's a lot of. discussion around free speech on college. campuses and what we should do there. >> but one of the things that I was looking. at in the book is Title 9 and Title 9 is. the federal civil rights law that. protects against sex discrimination in. education.

>> and it has become a political football. over how we should be treating non uh. sex and rape on college campuses. >> which is to say like under the Obama. administration it was its powers were, I. don't want to say expanded, but maybe. more illuminated to the extent that you. could use Title 9 to combat sexual. harassment and sexual abuse. And that. sparked a huge backlash from the right. that said that, you know, this was. overreach by the Obama administration.

>> And for example, they took specific aim. at the standard of proof that the Obama. administration said that should be used. in adjudicating these kinds of cases. And so then when the Trump. administration came in, they changed a. lot of the rules around Title Nine and. they rewrote them to, for example, make. it that you have to have like in-person. uh hearings around these kinds of things. where both the survivor, the alleged. survivor and the alleged perpetrator. have to be there.

>> And this amongst other changes made it, as one activist told me, basically title. N became unusable for survivors. It just. did not kangaroo. >> I mean, that's that I mean, they. basically the Trump administration said. that you guys made Title 9 a kangaroo. court first and then we're fixing it. >> We're going the opposite direction, >> right? And then so like basically it's. now at this point the Biden. administration rolled in. They again. rewrote the rules of Title 9. Trump. administration, as people might have.

heard, is back in power. And. >> wait, what? >> I know. Ah, >> how long have we BEEN IN HERE? [laughter]. I MEAN WHAT IS INTERESTING is like there. are things. [laughter]. >> there are things in the book that I. predicted would change under a Trump. administration and title N was one of. them but I did not predict the speed at. which a lot of this stuff would change. like in between I mean writing a book. takes time in between turning in the.

final draft and the book actually coming. out some of the stuff that I predicted. would happen over the course of a. four-year Trump administration happened. more or less immediately. And so the. Title 9 rules have reverted at this. point to what they were underneath the. Trump administration. And I think for a lot of survivors on. college campuses, it's been very. difficult and upsetting to see like sex. effectively being treated as a political. football. Yeah. and not really being the. nuances of it not really being reckoned.

with just people again flipping from one. side to the other. >> and you know I think we have to think. about like what is a college campus like. a college campus is where people go and. learn about the world and if they're. being taught at that age that maybe. there are not consequences for sexual. abuse for sexual harassment for rape. like what does that say for the rest. >> of their lives. >> sex or rape is one of The rape is one of. the number one reasons that women leave.

college campuses. >> Damn, no way. >> And so when that happens, we're creating. a situation where women are less able to. flourish. They're not able to get the. education. They're not able to get the. jobs. They're not able to ultimately. have as much of a public voice. And so. we create like a snowball effect here. when we don't take sexual abuse and. harassment on college campuses seriously. in all kinds of ways. It's also um I always feel like it's. also a little disingenuous. to deal with the people who are.

dealing with the ramifications of a. system without thinking of the system. itself. >> Like like one of the biggest ones that. throws me in my daily life is I'll think. about like drunk driving. I always think it's confusing. that if you sign a contract and you are. inebriated, most courts would argue that you did not. have the capacity to sign that contract. Let's say you were drunk at the time, so. you couldn't agree. >> altered state. >> You were in an altered state.

If somebody drives drunk and they crash. their car into people, >> they are prosecuted fully because the. law says they made a decision to drive. drunk. Mhm. >> But I'm like, yeah, but that same law in. another instance says you did not have. the capacity to make a decision. >> Mhm. >> Do you know what I mean? >> And it's these small paradoxes that are. complicated. And that's what law needs. to get into. That's what I think law was. fundamentally meant to be about is. trying to understand the complicated. nuances in a society, >> provide clarity as to how to deal with.

them on a case-byase basis, >> but the messiness of the system isn't. dealt with. Like whenever these college. things came up, I would see them have. all these conversations. But very seldom. would I see colleges say, "What do we. think about how we allow alcohol on a. campus?" Do you know what I mean? >> Mhm. [clears throat]. >> And I'm not saying that that is the. cause, but I'm going, "You cannot. separate a conversation about sex and. young people from alcohol.". But you're just going to talk about the. people and not the environment that the.

people are in and how they're consuming. the alcohol and then what then happens. And then you you with me? And sometimes. I think it's it's such a it's such a. shortsighted and and and small approach. that you may end up swinging back and. forth the whole time because you just. go, "Oh yeah, you know, one. administration goes, it's the guys who. are the problem." Then now it's the. girls who are the problem. Then it goes, it's just going to keep going back and. forth. And the institutions never. actually have to ask themselves, wait, >> what environments are we creating? To. your point in educating, in they they do.

those campus tours. They tell you about. the morals of the camp. This is what. it's like to be a student here. This is. where you should go for this. This is I. feel like even on that level, colleges. should say, "Hey, we're going to teach. you about sex on campus. This is part of. your onboarding. This is part not sex. also in life, but we're going to like. we're going to talk about sex in a. college setting. We're going to talk to. people about sex. We're going to talk to. you about shame. We're going to talk to. you about pleasure. We're going to talk. to you. But these things are all part of. sex itself. And if we don't, we're just.

going to be living in a world where. everyone is coming in with like their. own little manual that was written by. porn or their friends or their parents. or a random school teacher that taught. them nothing. >> And then we wonder why there's so many. breakdowns in that world. Do you know? Do you get what I'm saying? >> Yeah. I mean, I do think colleges do try. to some extent. Like I remember on my. college campus we did get uh you know a. talk about how to handle sex, how to. handle drinking. And the thing is like I. still didn't really know that title N. existed until my senior year.

>> Oh god. It's. >> and so it's not something that I think. can be solved by like one talk that the. college campus gives to incoming. freshmen especially. I mean when you're. >> Yeah. I mean more than a talk I mean. like it's it's to me it's a syllabus. It's part of life. But but carry on. Sorry. >> Yeah. No, I mean I think that it just. I don't know. I think I'm thinking back. to all these young women I interviewed. So, in the course of doing these. interviews, I never asked people if they. had been sexually assaulted. Like, that. was not a standard question that I had. because.

>> I didn't necessarily want to put people. into a space if they weren't willing to. talk about it. >> Yeah. >> But I was staggered by the number of. young women and some young men who told. me that they had been sexually assaulted. that it ca it just came up organically. in the course of the conversation. And to me, I feel like we are just. simply not at a place where we are. dealing with this or thinking about this. at the scale that it's occurring. You. know, post. >> I did ask young people, you know, can. you tell me about a. >> uh cultural or social or political event.

that shaped your approach to sex? And. almost all of them said me too. >> Most of them had memories of it. Some of. them didn't, which was very shocking to. me because made me feel very old. Um, but like it turns out that very little. has really changed postme too in terms. of like actual legal reforms, actual. changes on college campuses. Like the. main change we saw postme too was. reforms in NDA laws which are not very. helpful for college students who are not. working. >> and better HR trainings or more HR.

trainings I should say on sexual. >> yet again they're also not at work. >> right and so it just we really I think. have a resistance to having any of these. kinds of conversations about the system. or about how the system can be improved. or what the law should do or what even. like we should talk about as terms of. culture like is the law always the best. mechanism for dealing with the aftermath. of That's a great question actually. >> Like not everybody actually wants to go. through the legal system. I can tell you. I was sexually assaulted in college. I. never thought about going to the cops.

cuz it was me and him alone in a room. and like I knew that it was my word. against his and it wasn't going to end. well. And incarceration is also not. necessarily the same thing as justice. Mhm. >> And so I felt like what became very. clear to me is in talking to these young. people is like there is just a. resounding failure across the board to. take sexual assault and sexual abuse and. its aftermath seriously. >> Yeah. >> And like maybe Title N. we at least need to be talking about. Title N as more than a political. football in this environment. It can't.

just be something that Democrats and. Republicans use to wield against each. other to prove that one. Oh, you're. attacking men, you're attacking women. real conversations about. the beginning of a foundation for. cultural change. >> It's a noble thought, >> but I can't no [laughter] I can't I. can't No, fair enough. >> I can't help but think to myself, >> is that a possibility. like ever in our evolution as humans? cuz you can go back and read I mean like.

like ancient texts and it's shocking to. find like the Greeks and the whatever. like on a on a legal level talking about. morality and what is and isn't. permissible and what a pervert is and. you know it feels like it's always going. to be politicized. It's always going to. be political because to what you said in. the beginning of the conversation, >> there's a power attached to it. >> and it's also a very a very um. it's the perfect tool to define where.

morality lies in a society. >> You know, you think of like. >> or. >> Yeah. No, no, but like how we view sex. and and the even beyond the laws around. it itself, but the how we view it, you. know, you know, you think of colonial. writing that they the savages, the way. they have sex and the savage sex and the. It's such a powerful tool to define. >> where the norm exists and where the. other starts. >> And I actually wonder because you do. write quite a lot about this. I actually. wonder how much you think we can learn.

from societies or peoples who have been. pushed to the fringes of society cuz I. often find that they do a lot of work in. defining sex in a way that like. mainstream doesn't. You know what I Like. I remember in around the me too movement. I learned more from the BDSM communities. that came up online. >> Everyone was like but how would we know? And then BDSM people were like oh so. this is what we do. This is because we. have been choking. We have been. whipping. We have been. >> and it's it was I was ignorant to it.

>> I couldn't believe that people who were. in those communities had checklists and. had very. >> you know like tender and interesting. guidelines on how to go about this. And. I so I wonder like what you learned. about what we could learn by engaging. with groups or communities who have. generally been pushed out to the. fringes. >> I mean a lot I think that a lot of these. groups I mean BDSM is a great example. and I'm paraphrasing um somebody else. who said this uh a philosopher at Yale. who's talked about BDSM needs hierarchy.

into an erotic resource through consent. >> Wow. And so you can use consent to take, you know, all of these different. >> hierarchies in society and like work. with them and make them a part of your. sexual play and your pleasure. And the. fact of the matter is like I don't think. that we should necessarily be aiming at. abolishing hierarchies or that because I. just don't think it's necessarily. possible, >> right? >> But I do think that there are a lot of. communities that have thought a lot. about like how do we take the world as. it is and figure out a way to ring.

pleasure out of this. Um, I I was really. inspired in in doing these interviews by. the number of young people I spoke with. who were. interested in activism around sex. I. talked with a lot of young people who. were fighting against sexual assault, who were fighting for abortion rights, against abortion rights, who were. fighting for LGBTQ plus rights. And. there was one young woman who I talk. about in the book, Zoe, who actually she. had been sexually assaulted and she had. also had her nudes leaked multiple. times. And she it was it was devastating.

for her. It was profoundly difficult for. her to pick herself up again after that. But she got involved in pleasure. advocacy on campus and became really. invested in sex ad. And she got to a. point where, you know, she is interested. in sending nudes to her now boyfriend. And so the answer isn't necessarily, you. know, never send nudes again. You've. been hurt by it. It's to. >> create a framework for yourself where. you can say, okay, I recognize the. risks. like maybe my nudes will get.

leaked again. Maybe this boyfriend who I. love so much will betray me. But if I go. into these situations knowing the risks, I will feel more empowered than I did in. a previous situation that I was in. And. I found that those kinds of stories to. be very inspiring because, you know, people do pick themselves up and go on. after these circumstances. And they do. think about new frameworks for. themselves that make them feel. comfortable as opposed to just rejecting. the thing that had hurt them in the. past. I I I don't want to probe into. your past, so please feel free feel free. to not share, but I'd love to know what.

you would have thought justice would. have looked like in your story because. you say you weren't comfortable in going. to the police, but you wanted something. to happen, but you said an interesting. phrase after that. You said you don't. necessarily think that incarceration. would have been the right solution. So, when when you look back on that, and. again, like I say, we can move on, but. like what do you think justice would. have looked like for you? >> I think an apology would have actually. done a lot. >> Yeah. like it actually I wasn't I. wouldn't have really needed frankly that. much and I should say that I I wasn't. raped it I describe it in the book but.

it basically became like. >> he wanted a [ __ ] I didn't want to. give him one we had like a physical. tussle over it and I ultimately was able. to effectively push him out of my. apartment and so maybe if someone had. had like a different kind of assault or. was just a different person they would. have wanted more but I would have felt. that if he had acknowledged what had. happened as something that had hurt me. >> and said I'm sorry that I did that would. have been enough for me. >> And you know, this is something that. gets talked about in the concept of. restorative justice, which I bring up a.

little bit in the book, which is that. you can have. >> if you have conversations and create a. safe space for conversations, I think. people don't necessarily realize that. like, you know, there's actually a wide. variety of outcomes that some people. would accept. >> that are not just punitive. Yes. >> But we don't create the space for those. kinds of outcomes. We don't create the. possibility for envisioning a world. where it's like it's not necessarily the. law that's going to solve all of this. stuff for us. >> Yeah. In a in a world where the law has. now become responsible for handling all.

of community's conversations like every. every aspect of a of a conversation that. should be held in a community, >> everything becomes legal. Do you know. what I mean? And it's that's like one of. the the things. >> that you see. It's really big in. America, but it's expanding to the rest. of the world as well, where people have. lost or misunderstand the value of, as. you said, I'm sorry. >> Yeah. >> Or the value of do you acknowledge the. thing that happened to me? The value of. >> and because of the business side of it.

>> Yeah. >> You know, which you talk about all the. time. >> There isn't really value in the other. one. There's no there's no money in the. sorry side, >> but there's money in the legal side. >> You know what I mean? There's money in. the punitive in [clears throat] the. punitive side. you put the person away. in jail, there's money to be made. somewhere, but there's no money in. connecting human beings on a restorative. on a restorative path. So, that's like a. it's a it's a beautiful way to think of. it. Thank you for sharing that. >> Yeah, I I think uh. in the in the most softer side of it,

which is the one extreme, which is an. emotionally unavailable boyfriend for a. woman, is again the battleground is a female. body. And on the extreme side of it, which is assault and rape, is still the. female body. And. on the other end of it, there can only. be one perpetrator because they come. from one gender. So even the innocent. parties feel like one step could get me. in a wrong place. So I think young. people are not having sex because they. don't like the human connection. I think.

they're scared. >> Women are scared for what might happen. to them. Men are scared of what they. might do because they don't know much. So, I think you're right when you're. saying it should be all-encompassing. when it comes to um sex education. because I think it exposed how much is. missing from those people that we look. at and go those were the nuclear family. who were conservative in in how they. behave. the world. >> Yes. Because at some point we have to. admit that that generation also raised. well balanced and well-rounded.

individuals. So now this freestyling. that's going on has left kids to their. devices quite sooner. kids take. themselves to school earlier, they do. their own homework, they bring. themselves back. So, there's no. conversation. There's no way. And also, there's no um for males especially, I. can speak for myself. I'll see that with. younger ones, there's no examples of. what a good man is, of what a good uh. protector is. You know, I've had these. conversation in South Africa where. during GB gender based violence month, I.

would say I hate. >> that's why we're against it by the way. >> Yeah, that one month. >> just No, but we're against it. Just so. you know cuz you never know. >> on the 31st. >> you never you but you can't just say the. month cuz you never know if you for. against. >> I assumed against but. >> you I'm just letting you know I don't. want you walking away being like in. South [laughter] Africa they they. celebrate gender based violence for a. month. >> a month we don't celebrated we. highlighted. >> against. >> Yes. So I and I said these activists and. these NOS's I feel like there's someone. behind them obviously because the. assault side of it like punitive side of.

it is a big business and when they say. they want to take the drive to younger. men at school I'm like no you can't. automatically assume that a young man is. going to commit sexual assault against. or gender based violence against a. woman. You're not giving them the. benefit of a doubt. You're already. accusing them before they've gotten. their first kiss or their first crush. fear to your point is something you talk. about even on the you talk about in the. book in and around like Roie Wade. >> and it it is it is something that has to.

be again we we don't know any number. conclusively. >> but I do appreciate how you talk about. what fear does to us and how we how we. should like count in all these things. you're in school. >> the fear is you have sex you're going to. die. >> or you're going to have a 16 pound baby. these are your options. >> and then you move on to another one and. then it's like your fear if you're a. virgin you're a loser you're going to. die you know it's fear and then there's. another type of fear if I come forward. I'll be shamed or I I will be you know I. won't be listened to or this will it'll. be a kangaroo call it becomes a fear and.

then you come into another situation if. you if I say no it's a fear if I if I. don't say yes even as like guys do you. know how many young men I've talked to. who go. >> I don't think that as a man I have the. option to not want sex. >> yeah I want to be clear also you know. one in 25 young one in 25 men in the US. has been penetrated against their will. and one in nine has been made to. penetrate somebody else against their. will. >> Wow. >> So this. >> but I'm saying that's that's them like. even against their will. I I wonder if. that includes.

>> men who will say and this is what I mean. by the complicated nature of it. They. may go. >> not it not against my will but I didn't. know that I can say no. I I and I think. >> because men are expected to always want. sex. >> Yeah. For take forget it from like even. kids sides. You know how many couples. are in therapy because a wife is going, "He doesn't want to have sex." And the. man's like, "Yeah, I I don't always want. to have sex." She's like, "I mean that. that clearly there's something wrong. with me." And then now you're living in. a world where. >> one half of the couple's going, "There's. something wrong with me because men.

always want sex. Why doesn't he always. want sex?". >> And the man's like, "Men don't always. want sex. That's not like a real thing, but now I can't say this to you now.". >> Or the man is thinking, "Men always want. sex. Why don't I always want sex? What's. wrong with me?". >> That's exact. So when we talk about that. fear, >> you're right. >> I think of you add another layer to it. People go, "Oh, Gen Z, why are they so. afraid of?" And then you go, "Yeah.". >> Have you seen sex lately? >> Yeah. And also like look at Roie Wade. If you've told somebody. >> that the actions of your sex. could lead to somebody being pregnant.

when you they didn't want to be. pregnant, you didn't want to be. pregnant. And now that that's your life, that's your baby. You're moving forward. Otherwise, you're a criminal. I can see. some people going, "Ah, then I don't. even want to have sex then." you know, and I I'm assuming you you you saw this. or you felt this. How much. >> how much do you think that affected how. Gen Z now sees sex in America? >> I think one of the thesis of the book is. that the changes in the landscape around. sex have added so much anxiety and fear. around sex that. >> it is for young people easier to opt.

out. And I'm not saying that this is a. conscious decision that they're making. Yeah. >> But when it feels so fraught to be. vulnerable with another person, to have. sex with another person, you know, why. do it when porn is out over there? >> Actually, one of the sort of moments I. decided to write the book was there was. a young woman who messaged me right. after Row was overturned. I think it was. the following day and she told me that. she was pregnant and she didn't want to. be, but she lived in Arizona and Arizona. had a law on the books that was.

centuries old that banned virtually all. abortions, >> right? >> And abortion providers were afraid to. provide abortions because they thought. that the law might be back in effect. >> And so she could not end her pregnancy. in the state where she was living. She. ultimately ended up ordering abortion. pills online and ending her own. pregnancy in a motel room with her. ex-boyfriend. And you know that is safe. to do. Medical experts widely agree. You. can order pills online and you can end. your pregnancy in your first trimester. of you can end the pregnancy in the. first trimester of pregnancy safely. But.

what she told me and what really stuck. with me was that she felt like she was. being humiliated for having sex. That. even though the abortion was something. she wanted, she felt empowered in the in. having it. She felt like that was a good. decision for her. She felt like. Republicans in particular were trying to. punish her for having been a person that. had sex. >> And I think that that is a feeling that. a lot of young people are grappling with. right now, which is that. >> oh there is politics is making me a bad.

person for having sex or the the state. of politics I would say right now is. making me a bad person for having sex. And you know, with Roie Wade gone and. more than a dozen states having banned. almost all abortions at this point, you. know, we're creating a generation that. has to grapple with that fear. >> every day. >> and has to think about, okay, if I did. get pregnant or if I do get somebody. else pregnant, what are we going to do? Do I have the money to end this. pregnancy? Could we go out of state? >> Would what does it mean if I just.

continue to have this baby? Um, one in. five men have been involved with. somebody who went on to have an. abortion. And so this is not just. something that affects women. >> knowingly or unknowingly. >> uh both. >> And so this is not just an issue that. just affects women. It is something that. many of the young men I spoke to were. also thinking about and were also racked. with anxiety over. >> Yeah. I' I've seen how it also what's. happening in the world affects how men. date because sometimes disagreements.

with someone that you're dating are very. tricky when you think what could happen. when they leave here. You know, I've. seen people who are going, but you know, might not agree about me not wanting to. have sex with her or her wanting to do. it with me, not now she's here. I must. play along so that at least I'm safe. It's not a thing of when she can go out. there and change her mind about what. happened here. Because also, we've had. pe stories of people who become. malicious and weaponize the fact that. many women get raped and many women get. sexually assaulted and a slight. disagreement in a relationship can turn.

to, you know, >> because a few of those stories. It it is. actually sad how that happens. We we've. seen a few of those stories recently in. the news. >> and it is it is interesting to to use. the airplane analogy. >> It's amazing how people can use a few. stories. >> to create so much fear and do do you. know what I mean? It's like um it's it's. it's it's messy and it's complicated and. it's like I I wonder if you came to any.

um. I wonder if you came to any. light at the end of a tunnel and not. that this is a morbid thing by the way, you know, >> but like listen like to what Eugene is. saying now I agree with completely. Do. you know what I'm saying? Think about. like some of the conversations we've had. on this podcast in different episodes. [snorts]. you you know you you have a health care. industry that does something that's. pretty good for people with their. kidneys dialysis and then there's a few.

companies who come in and go this is how. we can use this to to make money and it. hurts people. >> in the same instance here. >> you know some people can use the laws in. their favor to hurt somebody they can. hurt women can use a law to hurt men. have been using the law in their favor. to hurt me women for you know decades. and decades. but where's Where's like the is there a. hope in all of this or is it just us. always grappling with the messiness that. is never contained? >> I mean I think grappling with the. messiness can be something that is a.

hopeful process cuz I think the. messiness of sex is what makes it. interesting. It what is what makes it. kind of fun. And I think that we. shouldn't try to make sex something that. is black or white or that is very. strictly one thing or the other. Like I. think we should try to look at sex in. the landscape of its messiness and enjoy. that. Um, and I I think one of the. things that did give me hope was the. extent to which young people were trying. to do that. And I think. >> because these young people have grown up. seeing Rogue get overturned, seeing me. too break out,

dealing with a profoundly turbulent. political environment. I think they. understood a lot earlier than say I did. that sex has political dimensions and. that no matter what we do, sex will. always have those political dimensions. and that political veilance. And they. said to themselves in many instances, okay, given that that is true, what can. I do in my community to change those. dimensions and make sex be something. that is something that I don't have to. be afraid of or that my friends don't. have to be afraid of? >> Yeah.

>> And I think that as much as the. political elements of sex can make. people anxious, it can also be. >> it can also give them the feeling like, okay, I can create change around sex. It's not just something that happens in. a bedroom between me and my partner or. me and my partners. It's something that. I can go out and try to redefine the. terms of in school rooms or go out and. try to redefine the terms of in. schoolboard meetings and in courtrooms. and in state legislatores and in. Congress. Like it is possible to change.

as opposed to thinking that sex is just. this dirty thing. >> that we can never ever. >> seek to make better. >> 100%. I think what's tricky about sex is. it's both a want and a need at the same. time. >> Oh, damn. >> So, it makes people, you know, very. confused about where to draw the line. So, yeah. >> Yeah. That I never thought of it like. that. >> Did I you see what I did there? >> You. >> So, these things happen happen often in. this podcast. [laughter] Uh. >> I'll take it to the top top.

>> Then we get stuck there. [laughter]. >> Then there's just a moment of silence of. reverence. a moment of silence and. >> the pointedness [laughter]. of your just that was an incredible. insight. >> I mean I mean more than that what. happens is I think to myself we're so. lucky that he would dare to be with us. >> Oh man, >> this community service is just I go wow. again you're philanthropy. >> We just don't deserve I just that's all. I think to myself. I'm like man I've got. to go and talk to somebody who doesn't. deserve it the way [laughter] I don't. deserve to listen to you. Um Carter uh.

we really had fun. This was this was. great. Um I I I think I appreciate more. than anything how nuanced your book is. >> Yeah. >> You know, in in a world where everything. is turning into. like one thing or another, it's so rare. to read an account of just like human. complexity, you know, age, gender, legal, parent, child, you you name it. I. don't think there's anyone who wouldn't.

be seen in this book. And so, thank. thank you for coming and chatting to us. about it. And, [music]. you know, I I I hope everyone reads it. and I can't I can't wait to see what you. write about in the [music] next one. >> Thank you so much. That's very kind of. you to say. >> Thank you very much. This is dope. Too. much fun. >> Thank you for all the [music] sacons. >> You are so good. >> You made this so much fun. >> Yeah, man. Thank you very much for real. >> Of course. Thank you. >> Jeez, that was fun. This episode is presented by Whole Foods.

Market. Whole Foods Market is the place. to get everything you need for. Thanksgiving. [music] With great prices. on turkey, quality organic produce, grab-and-go sides, and everyday low. prices from 365 brand, you can prep for. the holiday with big [music] savings. Shop everything you need for. Thanksgiving now at Whole Foods Market. Thank you so much for watching the. episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on. to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friends still. Let. them suffer for a change. And don't.

forget to engage with us in the. comments. Uh if you want to suggest a. guest, maybe there's questions you want, [music] maybe there's ideas that you. have, you can chat to us. We will read. through the comments and we'll get. [music] into it. Either way, I. appreciate you taking the time. Thank. you for hanging out with us on What Now. And remember, we do this for you, so we. would like to hear from you. Till next. time. Thank you.