Brené Brown: The Death of Nuance

[music]. I'm a sports girl. Oh, you are? Oh, >> which which sport? >> Volleyball. >> I mean, [laughter] I. >> pickle ball. >> Whoa. Whoa. >> Batminton. >> I play pickle ball six days A WEEK. >> YEAH. LET'S GO. [screaming]. >> LET'S GO. >> HEY, I COULD SMELL IT IN YOU. >> LET'S GO. >> THERE WAS SOMETHING HIPPIEISH. >> It's not like you've got a good nose. I'm a white lady that's in [laughter]. like I'm a I'm a white lady over 50. I. mean, this is NOT.

[laughter]. >> What are you going to say next? I bet. you bake sourdough. [laughter]. >> Wait, you play pickle ball six days a. week? >> I do. >> I have found my kind. [music]. >> This is What now with Trevor Noah.

>> [music]. >> One one one word greet one word greeting. that would not give me away. >> Try [music] what's up. >> Hey. No. >> Okay. Well, give me a context. >> Hey would probably work. Hey. I would. try go with the hey. Hey. >> I fought the water and the water. >> Yeah, >> I fought that one hard. First time I. came, I would go, "Can I have some. water?" And I'll get looked at for a. long time, stared at. Then I'd be like, "Hey, may I please have some water?" And. then I'd get water. >> Your water sounding good.

>> Yeah. You see, I fought that for long. So now, >> but it's interesting that you learned to. say it from a woman. >> Some water. >> Yeah. The way you're saying it, >> cuz you go girl. >> You go girl. [laughter]. Again, Rebecca. YES. NOTHING. >> NO, BUT I'M SERIOUS. YOU go girl. >> You go girl. >> You go girl. Really? You go, "Hey, can I. get some water?". >> Yeah. You're like, "Hey, um, can I get. some water?". >> Yeah. [laughter]. Wait, you go girl. You go girl hard. >> Hey, [laughter] um, can I have some. water?

>> Now it's not really American. >> What is it now? >> No, it was a mix. It was like a hybrid. Your your American girl sounds like. American American girl. >> Let me back up a little bit more to like. let me go all the way back. >> to This is what happens like when I'm. working with leaders and I and every. everyone gets into this conversation, I'm like, "Wait a minute. What problem. are we trying to solve?" That's my. favorite question. Yeah, >> I think Eugene, the correct question for. Eugene is what problem are we trying to. create? [laughter]. [laughter]. >> You're not wrong. >> That's what I mean.

>> Yeah, >> it's the opposite. >> I refuse to answer that question. >> That's my f That's what we were talking. [laughter] about before you came. We. were saying like I was saying I I wish I. get to testify one day in front of the. Senate because first of all, there's no. ramifications. So that's like it's a. loose thing even though people act like. it's a big deal. Oh, >> wait. Hold on. Hold on. >> At a Senate hearing. >> Senate hearing. the Senate hearing and. the Congress hearing two different. things. >> Yeah. Yeah. But what I'm saying is like. if you have to go testify somewhere, you. know what I mean? Where it's like a. congressional, they're bringing you in. >> Yes. Yes. >> They always make it seem like there's. consequences. There are none, which is. great. >> What do you mean? >> This is basically just B-roll.

>> Yeah. But they also don't [laughter]. >> basically B-roll for they don't like. punish. >> Wait, wait. Nothing ever happens when. people like big companies come in, industries come. It's like slap on the. wrist. Nothing really happens. >> Or public flogging with. >> Yeah, that's it. It's public flogging. But what I do enjoy is the just the. >> No, Senator. >> Oh, yeah. >> That is that is correct. Well, I I don't. I don't have the numbers on hand, >> but I don't think it is that high. >> To the best of my ability. >> Yes. Oh, I love that one. >> I'm sorry. I don't remember. [laughter].

>> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I love it when whenever they go testify. in front of Congress, they don't know. anything about their company. [laughter]. >> The person should deny anything. >> It is. It really is. I'm sorry for it. Yeah. That's phonetically. We spent a. lot of time on that, >> right? >> Yeah. >> What do you mean? >> Like it was part of the Yeah. It was. part of our thing and Yeah. We we worked. on it really hard to have the denial. [laughter] with a denial thing. >> You're tricking us. Yeah. Because you're. an expert. Now I have to believe I'm. like I don't know if this is a real. thing or not. Actually, how [laughter].

often do people No. How often do people. >> think that you're saying something. completely genuine when you're not? Because because you're Bnee Brown. It depends if whether they [laughter] if. you're related to me, you know I'm. bullshitting you, right? But if you're. in general, [laughter] like you don't. ever know. But I I I think yeah, I. should probably be. um Well, unfortunately, the same thing. that makes you undatable makes me.

dangerous. [laughter] I. >> You just say the thing that comes to my. head. Yeah. So, I'm trying to I Oh. Damn. Um I. [laughter]. I don't I shouldn't talk about this. Okay. I'm gonna talk about it anyway. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Um that's like your whole. >> Is that a denial? >> No. No. It's It's [laughter]. I did this um interview in January with. the Financial Times. Uptight.

>> Financial Times. >> Yeah. And. I. 20 minutes before I went downstairs and. it was in the like in a room in the. hotel, everything was unfolding with ice. in Minneapolis. >> and I was loaded for bear. I mean, I was. I was coming out of my mind. So when I. sat down, whatever the opposite of media. training is [laughter] is what happened. >> Really? >> Oh yeah. I I just went I and that's the. whole thing that and I kept even on the.

elevator down I was like think before. you speak. Don't think then say it. Think and then pause and then say it. Think before you speak and then just. really pause. Um but it didn't work like. that. And then what I'll go down in. history for is. potentially the best correction in. Financial Times history which said. researcher Dr. Bnee Brown. did not say she's in her [ __ ] era.

She said she was in her [ __ ] it era. Um. >> that is a correction they had to. >> Yeah. in the Financial Times. And then. you know one of the things that. >> that is one of the greatest corrections. [laughter]. >> that's what's going in that gravestone. cuz that. >> no and you know that [laughter] noise. you know that sound effect. You do the. sound effect really well. You might be. my favorite at this. [laughter]. You go like make the noise when the. texts come on. >> when the. >> when you turn on your phone and there's. like seven like you're post Grammy turn.

your phone. >> Oh, you mean like when the when the the. the little likeing like there's like 30. of them. >> Oh, when it's like. >> Yeah. And you turn your phone on you're. like. [laughter]. you do that well. [laughter]. >> You know why he knows how to do that. well? his life. >> He doesn't answer texts. >> Wow. Eugene, >> what are you talking about? >> A text doesn't stop buzzing when you.

answer it or don't answer it. I feel. like you just use this as an as a moment. to like air out a feeling you have about. me. You can't answer a text. >> No, that was a deeply appropriately. contextualized stray. >> to confirm no deny that. >> Wait, so let's go back to this and then. I'm going to handle this. >> No, that that the context for your stray. was on point. It was excellent. Um, >> [laughter]. >> right here. Yeah. >> Um so, >> so [laughter] I so I don't even know. this thing is running and then it's.

and when I saw the article I was really. upset [clears throat] because I thought. we had talked about a lot of great. things and basically they took the five. sentences where I was the most kind of. angry and unhinged. >> Yeah. >> And they just then wrote around those. five sentences. So, it wasn't super. coherent, but it made me look like. someone, one of the comments in the. thing, which I shouldn't have read cuz. my therapist says I'm supposed to be off. those, but I read it anyway. Someone. said, "Oh, wow. She's like the Beth. Dutton, like the the wild character from. Yellowstone that kills people. Like, she's the she's the Beth [laughter].

Dutton of leadership.". >> But then when the Financial Yeah. when. the Financial Times correction came out, >> one one guy on like whatever what are we. calling Twitter these days? I'm not on. it anymore. Yeah. um said a Financial. Times correction for the ages and. there's like. >> 50,000. >> It is the greatest. That is the greatest. correction ever because now it makes me. want to go read the article because now. it makes me But but it's funny, you. know, the thing you're talking about. >> almost maybe answers a a question I've.

had for a while. >> I've wondered why um public conversation. has become so sanitized like like like. interviews, everything. You know, I was. watching clips from late nights, but. like old late night, >> and I was like, it was so much more. honest. >> Oh, it was like, >> yeah, someone would come on and they'd. go like, "Oh, so your your movie came. out. Uh, you know, what do you what do. you think?" It was like, "I'll be. honest. It was a piece of trash." Look, it's it's not a great mo film, but uh,

you know, you make movies and you you. get up and you do it again and you're. like, "Wow, I don't know the last time I. saw someone saying that a movie they. made was trash.". >> It's completely true. Or I I I'm not. sure I was drunk the whole time. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just like that. Those. types of things just and and I found. myself going. >> the reason I was I've been going down. this rabbit hole is because I was. wondering when society sort of like lost. its ability to be honest in certain. spaces. But then what you what you're. saying maybe answers the question cuz. I've experienced this as well. If you're.

going to go out and talk to media or. have any conversation with them and then. they're going to warp that because they. know that's the thing that gets them the. most views and the most clicks, then. people now become more and more and more. rigid. And so when they go to an. interview or when they have a. conversation, they go, I'm not going to. say anything. >> that you can use against. >> that you can use against me. >> 100%. >> That's dating. >> Yeah. But now what what it means is. [laughter] you just end up in a world. where you said nothing because you're so. scared and correctly you're so scared.

that the person will take the one part. of the interview, your [ __ ] it error. They're going to take that and make that. the interview as opposed to putting it. in context. >> And so then people go, you know what, you're not going to see any real parts. of me. >> I will give you the most sanitized. version of me. But then ironically what. that's done is it's made people like I. think there's a reason TV is dying and. like celebrity culture is sort of like. waning and and now it's become more. about social media because people are.

looking for real and mainstream doesn't. like have real anymore in that way. >> So basically you're saying people. conduct themselves in interviews like. sports stars do. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> They just state the obvious facts and. trouble. Well, they're very I mean, so I. what I think is interesting. This is. there's there's 40 steps I'm going to. take here in one sentence. So, I. understand that it seems preposterous, but I think it's also.

what you're describing is also at the. root of things like strongman. authoritarianism. And I I think it it it. the the results of what you're saying. are more to me they're deeper than dying. media. So. >> yeah, because in this in this article. I was unfiltered. >> and journalists, you know, fair play. Journalists don't have the ability to.

pick their headlines. So the headline. for the Financial Times article was. leaders now have permission to be the. [ __ ] they really are. That was the. headline in the Financial Times. Wow. >> You know, researcher Bnee Brown says, >> well, completely taken out of context, I. was talking about the protection of. authoritarian that the protection that. authoritarian leaders are giving. specifically tech leaders right now. >> Um because they are complicit in. >> in. >> you know money, coercion,

>> right? you know, a lot of things that. are happening. [snorts]. So, you really only have two choices. Be. sanitized and media trained, which is. say nothing about nothing. Yeah. >> Or [clears throat] if you. are really authentic in yourself, it'll. be warped to the point that you are. vilified. >> Yes. So what makes us I think so. interesting and beautiful as people is. that we are a combination of holy and.

profane. We are a combination of shitty. and wonderful. And [clears throat]. when you strip. that ability to be both things in the. media, it's just the beginning of how we. see people. >> Yeah. you're human or you're not human, you know, and so I I find it to be we. had, you know, I think we had really. important conversations about.

what people are saying about the new. world order, about how leadership is. being perceived and modeled in. organizations by, you know, they're. looking at politicians and like I can. get away with anything now. And then yet. we just went with the five most. outrageous crazy things and built an. article around that. And so. the con the nuance and the context and. the fact that I am both I think some I.

have something worth sharing and I'm. pissed off. >> those things can coexist. >> Right. But I but I think to your point. that you see that the the. >> one of my favorite you know quotes and. and and ideas to live by a fine I think. it was Charlie Manga who made it famous. but he said show me the incentive and I. will show you the outcome. >> Oh god the whole time that we were you. were saying I was like we've got. misaligned in incentives. >> Yes that's yeah that's exactly what.

Charlie Mer said. He said show me the. incentive. >> and I will show you the outcome. >> 100%. because we take for granted right. we take for granted that a news. organization so let's say if you if you. look at America you know around like. 50s60s even going into like the ' 70s. when the news division of a of a media. company was supposed to be a loss leader. as in it couldn't make a profit. >> there was just a different style of news. telling there was a different style it. was like these are the facts this is. what's happening let's keep it moving.

because they [clears throat] didn't have. to try and get your eyeballs because. they didn't have to try and get. advertising and so on and so on and so. on. >> Reporting the news. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if if your job is. to report the news, you will report the. news. >> Whatever news that is. >> But if your job. >> is to get eyeballs and your job is to. get viewers and your job is to increase. readership and your job is well then. news might not align with that all the. time. >> So then you start going what's. newsworthy.

>> and what's audienceworthy? >> Clickable. >> What's clickable? And so having somebody. say something crazy and making that the. focus that's that's the most clickable. thing that you can create and it robs. but to your point it robs us of the. nuance of like of genuinely of like. everything I feel you know you know. where you've seen it you you say the. thing about athletes. >> honestly one of my favorite things about. podcasts has been have you seen how many. athletes have podcasts now where they. now like say like the real things. express themselves. >> I love it so much I'm a big I'm a sports.

girl. >> Oh you are? Oh, >> which which sport? >> Volleyball. [laughter]. >> I mean, I. >> pickle ball. >> Wo wo wo. >> Batman. >> I play I play pickle ball six days A. WEEK. >> YEAH, LET'S GO. [screaming]. >> LET'S GO. >> HEY, I COULD SMELL IT IN YOU. >> LET'S GO. >> SOMETHING HIPPIE-ISH. It's not like you. got a good nose. I'm a white lady. That's in [laughter] like I'm a I'm a. white lady over 50. I mean, THIS IS NOT. HARD. [laughter]. >> What are you going to say next? I bet. you bake sourdough. [laughter].

>> Wait, you play pickle ball six days a. week? >> I do. [laughter]. >> I have found my kind. >> Please don't do this. Let's go. You want. to play? >> You know what's funny about this is You. know what's funny? >> Please don't. >> We'll be We'll be partners. >> You know what's funny about this? Eugene, >> will you teach me? >> I I I mean, >> he's been trying for a long time. >> Don't flirt with me. If you want to. learn pickle ball, I'm going to teach. you. I'm going to find a court and I'm. going to teach you. Look, back where I come from, we say I'm. available.

[laughter]. Can you tell where I'm from? I'm. available. for water. [laughter]. >> You know what I love is you brought a. pickle ball. So Eugene hates how much I. love pickle ball. >> Yes. And so my my deal is. >> Wait, are you feeling Wait, >> surrounded? >> No. Are you feeling left out? No, [laughter]. >> I love that I'm not part of this cult of. yours.

>> Eugene hates how much I love pickles. So, the deal I've made for our. friendship is I won't I don't bring it. up, >> but he brought it up. >> That's what I love about this moment. >> is that he has brought this upon. himself. >> I'm constantly trying to find. reinforcements here and everywhere I go, turn codes everywhere. Everyone plays. pickle ball at some point, loves it. And. I'm like, this guy just the fact that he. loves that thing, man. And I've I've. tried immersing myself in it. I've gone. to his pickle ball matches. >> at night. But you you don't play with. us. >> No, this is not this is not a spectator.

sport. >> I don't even want to touch this thing. >> It's not a great spectator sport. It's. the best participation sport. >> It's participate. I mean, but you know. what? >> Mhm. >> I see you. I think you want to play. pickle ball. I I I think you do. I think. I think. >> I like the clothes. [laughter]. I think. >> the shorts are freeing. >> The shorts I mean there's a lot. >> great excuse to wear the shorts and not. have to explain yourself to anyone. >> I need to see what shorts you're talking. about first. Shorts. >> Oh, what kind of shorts do you wear? Oh, you wear short shorts. Are we talking.

like. >> Are they short shorts? >> Larry Bird Celtic shorts. >> No, friend. No, no, no. You're my friend. who wears [laughter] THE YOU'RE RIGHT. You're right. Lawrence wears the short. shorts. >> Lawrence wears the shorts. >> No, I don't have the shorts. >> Cuz the short short guys can be a menace. on the court. Like we. >> Yeah. No, no. I don't I don't have the. short shorts. I have the shorts. >> His shorts are short. >> But 5'7 or nine inch shorts. What's your. length? >> Seven. >> Oh, you're okay. [laughter]. I see. You like your legs? >> Yeah. But Eugene is still like for him. that's still short. >> Yeah. That's still. >> That's a short short. But are you more.

like an Adam Sandler short guy? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But not too much over the knee. because it kind of squashes. >> to the knee. >> But almost just almost by the knee. Just. enough. Two two fingers. Can I borrow. him to go shopping and play pickle ball. >> anytime? >> I'm going to put you in some 9 in. athletic shorts, right? And then we're. going to play pickle ball. >> No long socks. >> I'm with you. >> I can't do long socks. >> But can you do can you do ankle socks? Are you a no-show guy? [snorts]. >> I can do an ankle sock at a push to.

solidify our relationship cuz I'm giving. you just a little bit just to show you. that I trust you. I'll go secret socks. any day. tucked in. No one can see. I'm good. But. if you're saying, "Okay, Eugene, if. you're going to go with the these socks, I would feel like you're trying to get. involved in my world." Cuz I like. submerging myself in people's worlds. >> If you give me a 9 in hem on your short, I'll give you no show socks. >> Give me a seven and maybe I'll.

>> do a crew. >> Wow. >> You saw it here first. >> I did see it here first. Yeah, >> that is impressive. >> We're playing like I I will fly back. here to play. That is impressive. Impressive deal making. >> Sort of if he wishes. [laughter]. >> But wait, wait, wait. But I want to know. like let's go back to the sports things. like. >> Okay, wait a minute. What? Oh, okay. One. thing I wanted to say cuz I'm I'm like I. just want to finish. Um. >> I want to go back to. when the news was a loss leader. It was.

interesting. It was a financial loss. leader, >> but it was an equity builder for trust. in the network. >> Yes. Yes. Say that again. >> Okay. So news was a loss leader. financially, but it but it's so its only. job really was to build equity in the. network. >> Um so that other people other people. didn't have that job, which I think is. part of I don't I don't want a talk show. host.

being tasked with building equity in. trust, right? I don't I don't I don't. want that because. >> something has failed. something has. failed and a I don't believe you to. begin with like you're you're in a bit. >> you're in a bit right now like you know. and so. >> but the news. >> when the news's job was to build equity. through public trust. without regard to financial encumberment. I guess we were better. >> I think we were better then and then. pickle ball I do play six days a week.

and it and it's it's been it's been one. of the most fun because I was a tennis. player for 40 years and I follow a lot. of sports. I follow Go Birds. I'm an. Eagles fan. I'm a huge Liverpool fan. In. fact, I just did No ways. >> Eugene has just been thrust into Oh, Eugene. I'm sorry. This feels like a. trap. I And I didn't hand. Come on. >> I swear I didn't do this to you. >> Walk on. Walk on. [laughter].

>> THIS CAN'T BE HAPPEN. [laughter] I'M so. sorry. >> Wait. You love Pickle and you're a. Liverpool fan. >> Yeah. In fact, I was just on a podcast. in the UK and [snorts] they handed me. their phone and they said, "Hit play and. it was Stephen Gerard saying." Yeah, >> that's best. >> I got goosebumps when you said that. >> Yeah, me too. Anfield baby. Ride or die. >> I'm dying. [laughter]. If those are the options and death. inside, [laughter]. >> I've never had anyone actually respond.

to ride or die with ultimate death. [laughter]. Don't go anywhere cuz we got more what. now after this. >> All right, Eugene, let's play a [music]. little game. You know, make something. fun. Two truths and a lie. >> Mhm. >> Here we go. One, I've had to tell a. world leader that their fly was undone. Two, when getting dressed, I don't do. sock, sock, shoe, shoe. I do sock, shoe,

sock, shoe. Three, I've been a Verizon. customer for 11 years. What do you. think? Very confused. First of all, why. would a world leader own a fly? Cuz. those things just come uninvited. Secondly, lying to your friends is not. cool. There's never been a game. >> No, Eugene. A fly is for like the zip is. what and then it's it's it's not a lie. It's a game where I'm trying it's like I. give you information. Okay, I lied. All.

three are true, Eugene. And in case you. were thinking, you know, Verizon isn't. as expensive as you think. In fact, if. you bring in your AT&T or T-Mobile bill, they'll give you a better deal. And the. reason I've been with them for this long. is just because I travel so much. I need. a network that's reliable. That's right. A better deal on the best network with. the most ways to save on plans, streaming, and phone deals. Take your. AT&T or T-Mobile bill to your local. Verizon store today. Get your better. deal and start saving for real based on.

root metrics best overall mobile network. performance. US second half 2025. All. rights reserved. You must provide recent. consumer mobile bill in the name of the. person redeeming the deal. Additional. terms, conditions, and restrictions. apply. So, do you understand how two truths and. do you understand it now? >> I understand that you didn't have to lie. first before telling me that Verizon is. the best. >> No, I wasn't lying. Eugene, it's not a. lie. I wouldn't lie to you. It's a game. >> Okay. I'm sorry. [music].

>> I lied. AH. [laughter]. >> [music]. >> So I want to know like going back to to. to sort of the where we started this is. when people like take you seriously or. when people is there a way cuz I don't. know when when did you like become Bnee. Brown and what I mean by that is you. you're Bnee Brown but then at some point.

you become Bnee Brown you're not just. Bnee you're not Miss Brown you are Bnee. Brown and people Bne Bnee Brown Bne. Brown Bne Brown then you're in an. airport Bern Brown okay Bne Brown my. life Bnee Brown and then a a company. leader, Bnee Brown, Bern Bern Brown, Bern I'd love to know like when that. happened and how weird that was for your. life because [snorts]. it fascinates me because of the thing. we're talking about, right? >> Um, you know, an athlete is somebody who. plays the sport that they play and then.

we are shocked in society when they do. anything human outside of what they do. Does that make sense? spotted NBA. superstar drunk at a party. And you're. like, why is that a thing? >> Why is that a thing? >> Because we only see them in one space. We only see them in one world. We now we. now make them. >> one idea. You you are you are a fixed. metastasized idea of a human being. >> and anything beyond that is wrong. >> Can't be you. Yeah. >> And also can't be you. No, it can't be.

>> I think the minute that happens, >> I I don't Let me think about another. word. I wish there was another word for. dehumanizing that wasn't dehumanizing. cuz I want to save dehumanizing for the. really big catastrophic trauma. >> Oh yeah, I hear what you're saying. >> Yeah, but I wish there was a word that. was like uh reductive like. >> it's reductive. It's flattening. >> It's flattening. Yeah. And so I think. >> Oh, yeah. No, I get that. I don't know. whenever I whenever I became that thing. that you're talking about.

um. was really. shocking for me. >> because [clears throat]. when you are a public person this is. what my therapist has taught me and I. think it's been helpful when you're a. public person you become like a screen. on which [ __ ] is projected from other. you know you become the screen. >> and people project all their [ __ ] on. you. And so if I say something like um.

if I if I say something on social about. ice and then the next thing I know I'll. get a picture of all my books on fire in. someone's backyard and they'll say um. you you know it's it's they think they. know me to the point that there's any. dimension of me. >> Yes. >> That's not aligned with who they want me. to be or who they think I need to be in. order to have been helpful to them. Then. they it's like a solid it's actually. weird. It's actually like betrayal. They. feel betrayed. So they burn my books in.

their backyard and they say, you know, [ __ ] you. I hope you die. I hope your. family dies. I can't, you know, my. daughter, you know, our family went. through this thing and you were so. helpful and now you you know, you've. changed. And I'm like, I I don't think. I've ever written a book that if you. really read it, not for what you needed, but for who I am, you would never be. surprised by anything I said or posted. >> Huh? >> Ever. [clears throat] You would never if. you if you had not squeezed the life out.

of me to pluck from me what you need, >> you would never be surprised. Like I I'm. I'm you know, I got arrested in a. protest for the first time when I was. 16. Like this is this is not new for me, right? And so, and I think it's happened. both the far right and I think the far. left. >> Oh, definitely. >> Yeah. The far left is, you know, >> um, that one was harder for me because I. had a lot of identity tied up in that. >> And so, but I I when I became that. thing,

I just really had to I had to go away. for a year or two. Really? >> Oh, yeah. For Oh, for sure. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. And then I had to think, um, do I. [clears throat] want to stay away. because I really love this more pickle. ball. >> Yeah. >> Um, but then I thought, >> let's see if I can do it another way and. then choose from a place other than fear. if I want to go away. Cuz right now I'm. running. I'm not walking. I'm not. walking towards something I want. I'm. running from something that I'm I'm. afraid of.

>> Yeah. >> So now I'm in I'm in that I'm in that. decision-making thing right now. What what do you mean? I I know I know. exactly what you mean. >> I get it. Do you get it? Yeah, I do. I. think we all do because with with. proximity, you get a clearer view of if. I gave the person what they really. wanted, does it actually change their. life? So, if someone says, "I wish you. would die and go away." And you do go. away, you look back and you go, "If I. was away, what really changed?" But then. you go, "From being away, I don't like.

being away.". >> Cuz you've let them choose for you by. being I have let them choose for me for. sure. I've I've been in that space where. there was something I couldn't confront. really. >> and I would listen to what people were. saying which was an idea that they had. about me the the thing that you spoke. about of once they've made you the. person that they think you are and you. stray a little bit because of what news. say or an ex says about you and you. start believing it and you go let me be. away so there's nothing to talk about. >> right. >> but then you go I'm still living while. being away right I'm still living while. being away.

>> that's the hardest part. >> yeah I'm here still here. >> yeah I didn't delete myself I've deleted. myself from your existence, right? But. I'm still here. Then you go, okay, then. I decided to live loudly and say, and it. was on one of the episodes that we first. did together where I would say all the. things that people were always. misconstring about me and things that. were true about me that were deeply. hurtful that I went through. Then I felt. so liberated because I felt like I was. actually saying it from a point of. honesty, not from a point of defending.

myself. >> Defensive. Oh god. Yeah. >> That's the worst part. >> That's the wor I mean it is. And then. cuz it's like oh betray yourself last. >> Yeah. >> Like you know. >> Yeah. Cuz at some point when you're. defending yourself you're going to lie. about yourself. [laughter]. >> You have to at some point you're like. and then that thing happened. Yeah. But. I know why that thing happened and you. keep going back and back and back and. the real rose further further further. until you go I can't go anymore. But. when you're telling the truth. >> it's quicker it's better and it's. liberating. It's like that deep sigh.

that I felt after we did that episode. That episode was long. It was like three. hours cuz we had hung out before and. then we did the episode and we hung out. after. And the relief I felt of knowing. that I said what I wanted to say and I. didn't care because I've experienced the. worst from people who say this is who. you are and this is what you did and d. and I gave them the thing that they. wanted. I went away but I told the truth. and I said I'm not going anywhere. >> Okay. This is so powerful. Can I ask you. a question? >> [snorts]. >> So [clears throat].

when the people are thinking when when. you think about the people one thing. that you said that I have a question. about is. >> who people think I am do you think it's. who people think you are or do you think. it's who people need you to be in order. to work out their own [ __ ]. >> in order to you know feel better about. themselves? Is it really is is the. struggle really about who people think.

we are or is it really about who people. really need me to be? Because if it's. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Because. if it's about who people think we are. >> Yeah. >> I spent a lot of time trying to work to. change that. Oh no. Like let me go in. the comments and say, "Oh, actually. that's not true." That you know, >> but then I realized, well, this is a. [ __ ] losing battle because this is. not about who people think I am. This is. about who people need me to be. >> People need me to be this. >> Because if I'm not this, it's.

confronting to them in a way that's. uncomfortable. >> Yeah. And I think one of the That's so. powerful. I think one of the most unfair. thing that people can ask from other. people is not honesty. It's not. reliability. It's consistency. As a. human, I can't guarantee that I'm going. to be consistent in anything. in liking. you as a partner, in being consistent at. my job or loving the job the same way. again or walking the same path. I cannot. promise that I'm going to be consistent. But what I can promise is I'm going to. do it from a place of love. So whatever.

it is that I change in my ways that. would make someone go, you're not the. same person anymore. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm not doing it to hurt you. I'm. not doing it to hurt myself. I can. promise you now that I'm not going to be. consistent in this, but I'll try to do. it from a place of love. And that's what. I've had to do. And I've had this. conversation with my daughter and I said. there's things that we used to do. together not going to be consistent. with. You'll look at it and go hm we. used to do this and consistently and now. you're not doing it anymore. And I'm. like yeah whatever change happened and.

whatever path I chose to be consistent. on and venture on. I'm doing it from a. place of love. But I realized that I. couldn't be this reliable, consistent. person to everyone because it was those. small little roles that everyone. assigned. And when I strayed a little. bit and everyone go, [gasps]. what are you doing? >> So, >> it's really wow. I I find. >> I find one of the more fascinating.

aspects of life is that [clears throat]. >> we can all solve a Rubik's cube using. completely different techniques. >> At the end we we always, you know, most. people will end up in the same place, but you find we all got there in. different ways. So somebody figured out. like a trick to align the things in one. direction. Other people just kept moving. the pieces around until they got like. all the lines. Someone just went, I'm. going to take the colors off completely. >> I'm going to peel the [laughter] I'm. going to I'm going to peel the stickers.

off, line them up, and go. So, some. people but but but the point is we're. all trying to get to the same place. What I'm genuinely eternally grateful. for even in in this conversation you. we're having here is [snorts]. >> I had one of the stranger interactions. with people online. because I I I didn't I never engaged. with the comment section. >> Mhm. >> But I I would engage with the commenters. in the section. >> like in a DM or something. Okay, got it. >> And I've told you this story before, but.

like when I was very early on starting. the Daily Show, people were just like. this person shouldn't be here. We hate. him already. He's terrible. He he can't. say he he doesn't say women properly cuz. in South Africa we we say like when. we're talking about like uh we say women. that's plural for but when Americans say. women. >> but we say we pronounce the O more you. know and people like can't even say the. word women properly and was like this. whole thing and but it was everything. right. >> and then there was there was one.

commenter who was more prominent than. others in the mix and I DM'd him and I. was genu cuz I was new to this. I went, "Hey, why do you hate me so much?" And. I'll never forget this guy from Canada. And he went, his response, it was. actually beautifully affusive. He was. like, "Hey, Trev. Hey, buddy. I don't hate you at all." He. said, "I I'm just joining in with what. everyone's saying and it's fun and we're. piling in." And he he wrote it out. I. could probably still find it in my DMs. He wrote it out.

>> And can I tell you, I'm eternally. grateful to him because he was honest. enough to. be aware of what was actually happening. cuz someone might be like, you know why. or they try and like put it back on you. He was like, "Oh yeah, you've done. nothing wrong. We're a mob and as a mob. we're coming for you. It's a lot of fun. >> and this is what the internet does. Welcome to the internet, buddy." And he. was like, "Uh, just for for the record, I think you're very funny. I do think. you're going to fail on the Daily Show, but I think you're very funny and I wish. you the best of luck." And I I just.

went, "What is what is happening here?". And and I I I I know this sounds crazy, but just that interaction gave me a. third way to think of it. It went I. went, it is not that the person people. think I'm this way. It is not even that. they need me to be this way. I have just happened to step into the. spot where somebody was about to drop a. bucket of water. >> You [clears throat] happened. >> Does that make sense? >> Yeah. You happened into the spot. Yeah. The right spot. So, so the way I started.

thinking of it is I went everywhere all. the time in our lives as people, we have. buckets that we're filling with water. and that that water is whatever emotions. they may be. We've got a bucket of love. We got a bucket of anger. We got a. bucket of hate. We've got a bucket of. disdain. Whatever these things are, we. are the water balloons. I like that. You. are water balloon kind of guy. >> Accuracy. >> So, >> I can already see it. >> So, we're filling them up. We're filling. them up. We're filling them up. Or. they're being filled up. They're being. filled up. And and if you're not aware. of it, you know, they they they get.

full, they get full, and then at some. point you tip it out. Whoever's there when the tipping happens. gets all of it. >> They just get all of it. And and this. person made me realize sometimes we make. it seem like the bucket is being tipped. on us. >> It's just being tipped and we're there. >> It's just being. perfectly positioned for the tipping to. happen. And so I find sometimes it. happens in life. A parent will fill up.

their bucket with, you know, >> you know, it's like all the things that. frustrate them and and work and this and. and then the kid will be there at the. moment that they're tipping the bucket. YOU LITTLE [ __ ] ALL THE [ __ ] I [ __ ] AND. then the kid's like, "Oh man, >> wow. >> I'm drenched in hate. >> I don't think I deserve this much water. for what I did.". >> Right? >> And now you're the tipper and you're. going, "Ah." I mean the same thing. happens on the internet though is you. when you open the app on a day and your.

bucket is filled in a certain way you. will find the thing to tip into because. it's there already. Yeah. >> So if you're in a good mood you'll be. shocked at how quickly you scroll past. the bad stories and when you're in like. a a rage you know and you open that app. and you're going to find and then you go. like you know what take this bucket here. you go. How dare you study law Kim. Kardashian? Who the hell do you think. you are? Why did that make you angry? >> Yeah. >> Genuinely, what are you angry about? What what what offended you so much? She.

thinks she can. go and be a lawyer, but but why why are. you angry? >> Yeah. >> What are you actually. >> angry about? >> Especially when it's like a complete. random person on the other side of the. globe. And so what it taught me was. and maybe there's like a component of. spiritualism about it was genuinely I'll. go like oh it's it's not about you. But. like in a really wonderful way. >> Yeah. >> It's like it's it's not it's just not. about you. >> It's really not. Yeah. >> It's not about you. It's not about you.

>> But maybe maybe that's the thing. Outrage about you. >> Outrage offers us a chance to be mean. without taking responsibility. >> Definitely. >> Like Yeah. WHY? BUT WHY NOT? >> YEAH. >> EXPLAIN. You can see it. >> By the way, I also I also think we need. it though. >> Being outraged. >> Yes. I think I think in society this is. why I love sports. >> and this is why I think sports is one of. the most important things society has. I I it's the it's the reason I believe. people should go to stadiums. I that's. why I think tickets should stay cheap. They should be affordable so people can.

go. >> I believe that there should be multi. multitudes of what you know why? Because. it is a place where it is appropriate. for you to hate and you let that hate. out. God kill you. I GET THAT off the. field you piece of [ __ ] You and you can. then be like, "All right, let's go home, Billy. Come on. Come on, boys.". >> I've never looked at it like that. >> Yeah. because it's we we we are getting. fewer and fewer spaces and places in. society where we can tip out our buckets. >> in a in a safe, you know, and acceptable.

way. When when can you tip off your. bucket, you know, like you like you. can't even fight as kids anymore, so you. can't tip off that bucket. So when does. that happen? It can't. When can you. swear at somebody? You can't you can't. So you can't tip that bucket. Uh when. can you you and if you can't I feel like. we just become more and more and more. oppressed. the feeling you get. You've. seen me when I if I watch a Liverpool. game with Ryan and Ryan's wife will. always say, she'll be like, "Why do you. do this to yourself?" And I go, "Cuz. it's amazing.". >> Yeah. >> I get to ride a roller coaster of.

emotion. I get to swear. I get to be. angry. I get to be joyful. I get what a. in 90 minutes I get to ride a wave of. emotions. >> that if we're honest, in the grand. scheme of things, doesn't really affect. me. I think that's a beautiful thing in. life. I think it's I think it's worth. preserving for people, >> but now we have fewer and fewer avenues. for it. And one of the last ones is. social media where people anonymously. can just come and be like, >> outrage. >> Yeah.

>> Anger. Sports fans usually when their. team wins, they go, "We won.". >> Yeah. >> And when the team loses, they go, "We. lost.". >> Yes. >> What's up with that? >> I'll tell you where. do you enter? How do you enter into it? >> Yeah, cuz why why did we lose? Why did. >> That's [clears throat] That's 12 12th. man. >> Can I tell you? That's another reason I. love sports. >> Yeah, we're there. >> We take for granted. >> Really? >> Oh, yeah. No, we're there. You think,

wait, what is an without the fans? What's UT football? >> The tough man phenomena is a real thing. 100%. >> Are you experiencing all the emotions? >> Oh, like I work with a lot of sports. teams. >> Take it. >> Yeah. No, you you. >> Yeah. I mean, you have to the 12th man. is such a real thing that if you're. playing if you're playing a. an opponent that has a strong 12th man. element. I would say 12th person because. I'm a women's sports person, too, but. 12th person. Let's say 12th man. [ __ ].

hell, I can't I don't know. 12th man. Um, this is what I. >> Financial Times article. [laughter]. >> [ __ ] THE 12 MEN BY 12 MEN. [laughter]. THE MANISH. >> 12th person. >> 12th person. >> you know can I tell you the funniest. thing about that this is like just. perspective to that so my mom lives the. most offline existence of most human. beings I know she almost lives apart. from time for the most part right and.

sometimes I like to engage my mom with. things that current society is like. dealing with. >> just to see how she processes it almost. from an offthegrid perspective Right. Right. Right. >> The cabin in the woods. >> Yeah. Yeah. Completely. And I'll just be. like, "Hey, what do you think about and. one of my my favorite ones was asking. her about this and I said, um, you know, and I'll say this like I'll poke her, but not in like an agitating, but I'll. be like, "Oh, should we not also say um, you know, because it's person because. and then my mom goes she she literally. said to me, she went not even fighting.

She's like, "Uh, what do you what do you. mean. the man covers everyone?" Then I'm like, "No, it doesn't. Fire man." And then. she's like, "Spell woman for me.". >> And then I was like, "Wa n." She's like, "What's at the end of it?" She's like, "We're using the abbreviation for. everyone." She's like, "I've never. thought of it like that.". >> She's like, "Yeah, fire man." She's. like, "Because it's like human, so I'm. taking all of this." And she's like, "Woman, human, man." She's like, "It's. all. >> We've just gendered the last part.". >> She was like, "I" She" She's like, "No,

you were gender. I'm not. It's just the. abbreviation." And I was like, "That's. interesting.". >> Yeah. Yeah. And she was like, I I don't. know why there's a problem. Yeah. The 12. men sounds better than 12 person nish. human. >> Yeah. But it's also we've it it for me. it just gave me a perspective that I. didn't have. >> Yeah. >> Where I went, huh? H human. And my mom genuinely was. processing it from that lens. She was. going the end of if you want to make. >> if there's a dog that fights fire, we'll.

call it a fire dog. If there's a human. that fights fire, we'll call her fire. man. That's how she was doing it. She. was going the end of Hughes is at the. end. [clears throat]. >> Yeah. The species is the man part. >> Yeah. The man is not gender. >> No, no, that's in her head. That's not. how she was doing it. And I was like, damn, what a interesting way. >> That isn't that linguistically it's. really interesting. I would say when we. make a dollar for the dollar, then I'll. let go of the the gendered neutral. [laughter] But until while we're making. the 74 cents, I'm going to.

[clears throat] be going 12th person. Well, I don't give a [ __ ] whether it. sounds good or not. And if it would have. started 12th person, it would sound. normal now. >> Yeah, that's true. That's language. But. that's language. Everything is going to. sound weird until it's normal. >> So, but the 12th person, the the the the stands or as a player is. so significant that it changes the. training weeks leading up to games where. that phenomenon is the strongest. >> [snorts]. >> Um, I I always show this great clip when.

I'm talking to leaders and I think it. was Colorado going to play Oregon and. their stands are so nuts that for the. week leading up to the training, they. just put the Oregon fight song on huge. stacks of speakers at the training and. follow the players around because you. you can't hear it's so demoralizing. You. can't hear the play calls. um you know. when it's third down I'm a I'm a. Longhorn fan so University of Texas. [snorts] third down it just says on the.

big thing make noise and we get so loud. that they can't hear the play call so. they're probably going to if they can't. hear the play call how fast or slow the. pocket collapses around the quarterback. will change. >> and that means they will probably try to. run the ball instead of throw the ball. and if we're in like a short yardage. situation I mean it just gets very. complicated. Soy it gets messy. So. >> 100%. I mean. >> I think you saw that at the derby.

>> You know, Liverpool, you you saw that. it's just. >> it's very if you love football, you can. you can watch people fighting back tears. that are fans of the other team in. Anfield when when they sing You'll Never. Walk Away. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. It's something. It's it's. >> manumps have goosebumps. >> Goosebumps have goosebumps. It's like. pickle ball. >> You can't even You can't even You You. know who you You know who said it the. other day actually was um they asked um. >> Wow. >> They asked uh Luis Enrique, the coach of.

PSG. >> PSG. >> They said, "Hey, we we read a story that. you snuck in to a Liverpool match right. after you retired from playing football. You came and you watched the" And then. first he was taken back. Then he's like, "Oh," he's like, "Who who has that. question?" Then he's like, "That's good. research." And [laughter] then he's. like, "Yeah, I just wanted to come to. Liverpool to to to experience it." And. he says, "Oh." He's like, "It's not just. a stadium." He says it was He's like, "You feel the You feel. >> it's a cathedral.". >> Yeah. It It It makes the people feel. diff I've seen teams lose because the.

fans got nervous. >> Yeah. >> The fans start being like, >> and then the players are like, "Yo, stop. that, man. Just you." You feel that on. stage as a comedian. But you see, think. about sometimes you're telling a joke. >> and there's an audience that is. completely comfortable and with you. You. will you'll go to the craziest places. with that joke. And then sometimes. there's audiences where as soon as you. you you go down a then THEY'RE LIKE, "OH. BOY, EUGENE, we all don't. WE'RE GONNA. LOSE OUR JOBS, EUGENE." And then you go, "Damn, if I go, I'm going alone.

Do I want to go alone?" But when an. audience is with you, that's when I. mean, >> oh, you you make magic that you couldn't. make. >> You guys are shifting my perspective. And it's I know it's a sports analogy, but now I'm starting to get a little bit. and about how you describe the 12. person. It's I've always looked at. sports as. exclusive [clears throat] instead of. inclusive. So I've never I've never. looked from the field to the crowd. thinking this thing is bringing them. together. They're having a hot dog.

They're meeting up. They're dressed the. same. They agree on what the play should. be. I've always looked at why do those. people get to do what they like and the. rest of them have to watch them. >> Oh wow. That's how you've seen it. >> I've always seen it like that. So I've. never understood why why why would. everyone come. >> to watch these people few people doing. what they like and then rest of them. don't have the opportunity to do what. they like. I've always looked at it as. exclusive instead of inclusive. >> So this is really interesting because.

okay. I think I disagree with some of the. things you said from a from a different. perspective. >> Do it. >> Okay. Yeah. [laughter]. [snorts]. >> Um, so I'm going to go back because there. there were so many things that I'm going. to um we when we we we I interviewed you. at a conference like was it a year and a. half, two years ago. >> probably. Yeah. >> Yeah. I've not stopped thinking about. that conversation and I really have beef. with you on one of the things you said. because it really changed my worldview.

and oh it really pissed me off. >> Let's do it. >> Um but so that so I don't want to leave. with this unfinished business this time. So, so one, >> that's what we that's what we're going. [laughter] to call this episode Bnee. Brown unfinished business. That's what. we're going to call it. >> I'm going to need you in [laughter] some. 7in shorts. If you're if you're going to. be with me, I want some short shorts, baby. [laughter] I want like I want like. Larry Bird 5 in. Yeah. Okay. >> Um, so [clears throat].

I I don't know that I disagree with you, but I'm trying to make sense of things. So, one, the the collective bucket is full and. you're in the right place at the wrong. time and you're going to catch the stuff. flowing from the bucket. Whether it's. hate, sometimes it's love, sometimes. you're in the right place to catch the. love. Okay. >> So, I absolutely experienced that and like I. had to fight when I had to fight not. crying when you were talking about it. because I have been in the exact right.

place at the exact wrong time. >> Oh, wow. and really caught rage just. just buckets and buckets and buckets of. rage. Um, so I I think that's true. The other thing that is weird that I've. never had a conversation about in my. life because I didn't want to admit to. my team that I didn't want to admit to. my therapist that I have DM'd a couple. of people on occasion and said, >> "Man, it's really hard to hear that you. think this about me and I'm curious. about can you help me understand what.

you're basing that on?" like where what. what how did that happen? I I want to. know and it's always been like oh my god. Bnee Brown is is DMing me and then it's. like they share their screenshot and I. love her and she really you know and. then I've never once had someone come. back to me. >> with never once I've only probably done. it so small sample size four or five. times but it's always been kind and you. know and so that's weird. The thing that I would say about.

the. inclusive versus exclusive. and the collective. dumping of emotion. >> is one thing that we're we haven't. talked about yet that I think is. neurobiologically I know is. neurobiologically hardwired. >> is belonging. True. And so. genuine belonging.

is very very difficult because. belonging doesn't ask us to. fundamentally change who we are. It. requires that we be who we are. So, if. I'm if y'all are friends and I'm going. to, you know, I can't get a brief from. my team on y'all and know exactly what. to say. >> because then I'm not being myself. And. if you like me for that, I know it's. fraught, right? >> Because the second I'm myself, then I'm. I'm doomed. >> Genuine belonging really requires the.

capacity for people to stand on their. own and be alone. >> And if you can stand on your own and be. alone and then be yourself and then. there's real connection. So genuine. belonging is tough. One of the fastest. neuro. hacks to belonging is collective shot. and Freud. >> No ways. >> That that is that is one of the that. that is it gives us fullbody feelings of. belonging. >> We are going to connect.

>> mutually. >> in watching this person fall. And it. gives us all kinds of goosebumps. Oh, >> it gives us all kinds of sense of we're. together. And what I say is I don't. really know you, but our connection, the. three of us, is we hate the same people. >> Yeah. >> We're at the public square for a. hanging. >> Yeah, we're we're at the public square. for a hanging. And. and there's a couple of things that are. happening in that public square at the. moment. One, we're gathered. One, there's a ton of adrenaline. to we're.

very limbic in the part of our mind. that's very fight you know. we're also mitigating each other's shame. >> about enjoying this. >> that's what a mob you said this with. firing squad yeah. >> yeah yeah we're mitigating each other's. shame. >> so the collective shod and freud about. watching someone especially who's got. celebrity or a platform fail. >> is it's not lasting or meaningful it's. kind of like you're you're hardwiring it.

I wiring it hot, right? But it's there. So that's one thing I would say is I. don't think we can forget. >> the counterfeit connection we get. >> from collective shod and freud. >> and in a world where so many people are. in pain and need. don't have what it takes to forge real. connection because we're so lonely right. now. It's very it's a it's a really it's. a surefire way to get it. It's just.

absolutely a Fouian bargain, right? >> We've never been so alone, >> right, >> in a room full of people, >> right? >> Open your phone, dozens of people, >> right? >> So, you're right. We've never been so. alone, >> right? And so, we're so alone. So, we. are so And and again, neurobiologically hardwired for. connection and in the absence of. connection, there is always 100% of the. time suffering. And so, we're suffering. And so to be with a group of people even. in the comment section for it's it's a.

it's a hit. It's just a hit of. connection really quickly. [snorts]. >> Um it is corrosive and damaging over. time because we know it's not real but. it can give us something quick. So I. would say we should really think about. the collective shod and freud and need. for belonging that we're getting. >> [snorts]. >> The second thing I would say is one of. the things that worries me a little bit. about. and I get criticized for this a lot and. I think some of the criticism has been.

helpful cuz I mean if when I wrote. Strong Ground it probably has the the. last the probably the last leadership. book I'll ever write and it came out. last year. It probably has 30 sports. metaphors in it like chapters built. I. mean there's a chapter called the tush. push. There's, you know, it's just it's. based on because I think sport is. leadership theater. >> It's everything. Yes. Right. >> I think it's life theater. >> Oh, it's life theater. It's it really. is. And so the one thing I would say is. dangerous is.

us collectively coming together to find. a place to to. empty our rage bucket [snorts]. >> for me is the best of sport and why. sometimes I find it indefensible and the. worst of sport. >> Interesting. Okay, >> so we know that the busiest day of the. year for domestic violence hotlines is. Super Bowl Sunday. >> I did not know that. Yeah, we know more. women are beat by male partners on Super. Bowl Sunday. >> Are you being serious? >> Oh, yeah. 100%. Yeah, 100%. We know.

that. And and I'm I'm talking about this. honestly because I I came from kind of a. baller family. We were athletes. My dad. played football in college. Um and but I. also grew up with a very complex father. who Sundays were not safe in our house. >> Damn. based on how the games went. because we weren't, you know, American, we grew up with NFL was like our premier. league, right? >> So, I would also say that giving. ourselves permission.

to feel hate or rage. in sport is really dangerous. So right. now what I'm seeing with a with college. football teams that I work with [snorts]. are and I hate to be the downer in this. but I think it's a really important. convers. it's not even down. >> are these 18 to 22 year old kids that. are playing college football. >> that are. >> and we'll get into a really hard topic.

here um that are getting death threats. every day because. betting has become such a problem. It's. a scourge. >> It's a scourge, right? It's and and [ __ ]. the people who do it. >> and that market to young boys who are. lonely and need the, you know, the hit. >> Um, >> so these football players, >> many of them who've trained and worked. their whole lives, for a lot of them, it's their way out. It's their way to a. college education, are getting, you. know, really death threats every day. that, hey, your fumble cost me my.

parlay. Um, and so sometimes, you know, as a UT football huge fan, season ticket. holder, sometimes I have to put myself. in a trance to get through a game when. I'm seeing the, you know, 240 lb guy. yelling at the 19-year-old kid. >> for kidding. He's a kid. >> that you're a loser and your ass out. there and, you know, and I'm like, these are kids. Like it it's I think.

sports is the best of us, but I also. think it's the worst of us. >> I agree completely. >> Look at the racism in in in in European. football. >> Like I mean just. >> so. I think. I think people should take more. accountability for their buckets. >> Oh, that I completely agree with. >> Yeah. No, what I was referring to is. the person who has been drenched. I was,

you know, I was talking about like how. as a we've all. >> the person who catches it. >> The person who catches it, you've. experienced it in your life. You've been. a child. >> Mhm. >> You have been a spouse or a partner. You've been an employee. You've been a. citizen. You've been a bystander. You. whatever it is, you've been somebody who. has experienced a drenching. And all I. was referring to is the thing that helps. me even though the drenching doesn't. necessarily change is just trying to. remember that that bucket.

>> could have hit anyone. >> could have hit anyone. and it just makes it helps me remember. it because I think sometimes what. happens in life. >> what sometimes happens in life is. >> we without knowing it ask ourselves or. blame ourselves or question ourselves or. infer anything about ourselves because. the thing happened. >> What did I do to bring this on? >> Anything. Ah man, I wish I hadn't. crossed the street that day. I shouldn't. have been walking. I I shouldn't, you.

know, because we've been raised in many. worlds, you know, depending on your. culture as well. So many of us have been. told that we are the masters of our. universe. That when it rains, it's. raining on me. I shouldn't have been. And it's like but what this that's why I. say it's a little it's some of it is. almost a little spiritual cuz when I was. when I was in Bhutan and there were. monks who articulated it way better than. I had ever been able to like fumble. through it. They sort of made me realize. they were like oh no no no the thing is. not happening to you in that way. You.

are there so it is it is happening you. know and and and so we think of. >> oh I got chills. We always think. of everything in the world. >> focused on us like it's got a point of. view. We are at the center of it. >> We struggled to consider the possibility. that we are on the periphery of. anything. >> That's why I said when the extraction. happened when I step back. >> I like these things are still happening. My life is still happening.

>> Yes. That's what I mean. That's what I. mean. So, so to to come back to it, I. love what you're saying. >> because that thing. that's one of the biggest things that we. always have to work on in a society is. going, "Hey, >> just because your bucket got full. doesn't mean that now you you know what. I mean? It's the same. We do it with. trash." Funny enough, in real life, we. go like, "Just because your trash is. full, you can't just go dump it in the. street.". >> Mhm. Find a place. >> There's a legal way to go and get rid of. your trash. There's a correct way that. society has determined.

>> You cannot just dump your No. No, no, no, no, no. Just because your toilet is. full doesn't mean you can like go pour. it in the hallway of your apartment. building. >> Oh, well, [laughter]. >> but there's Do you get what I'm saying? There's there's rules about this. But. where do you think it where do you think. >> what I'm saying is I wish in society to. your point actually I wish we spent more. time. >> discussing and trying to figure out the. emotional spaces for dumping the emo. like. because we we forget that nobody teaches.

us these things. Nobody teaches anybody. these things unless you really go out. and look for it. >> Not the emotional offloading. No one no. one. >> no one teaches you these things. But but. you do know even a child is taught how. to throw their trash away. Hey, hey, hey, you don't you don't put that on the. ground. You go and you put it inside the. trash. No, no, no, no. We don't throw it. out the window. We go and we put that. You don't throw it at another person. We're going and just at a very young. age, you learn that the trash you have. is meant to go into that vessel over. there. In Japan, when I was there, it.

was even a higher level. >> That's nuts. >> They were like, "No, no, you keep your. trash. >> and you take it home with you and then. you deal. You don't there's no one who's. going to come fetch bins in the street. >> But they're the same people that. disappear into a forest that never come. out. [laughter]. >> So now it is but it is that actually. it's that extreme. They've gone like one. extreme, you know. So what I'm saying I. wish we had exactly your sentence. >> I wish we had more of learning and. teaching each other how to throw our. emotional trash away in a bin and not at. a person and not on the floor and not.

does it make sense to comfortable. I. want to know I want So that's why Okay. Yes. That's why I think sports could be. a dangerous place to do it because. depending on how dirty your trash is. >> Yeah. >> It it still can be dangerous. What's the. composting plan? >> Like what? Like so so I could say. easily, but this is not this is not. accessible for everyone. I could say I. have tons of bins full of [ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> So therapy has therapy has and coaching. has taught me to compost. >> my stuff, but that's not accessible to.

everyone. >> I I know. Yeah. I I think I figured this. out and I was having a conversation this. week and I said that composting plant. for that discourse is healthy. disagreeability. with people that you like. Yeah, I do. agree with that. >> Oh my god, that's good. Say that again. >> Healthy disagreeability with people that. you like. >> Okay, wait a second. >> Yes. >> And I'm going to compost it because I'm. going to have healthy. >> disagreeability. >> 100% someone that I like. Is it someone. you like or is it someone you trust?

>> Both. It could be someone I love, someone I like, someone I trust. >> Essentially, fundamental is get along. with. >> I do know I do know the one thing that. could that scares me the most that you. would have you said at the beginning was. belonging. I know that's not threatened. >> Yeah. >> By us not agreeing. >> It's not threatened, >> but that is so rare. >> I'm never going to not belong. >> here anymore just because we had this. healthy disag. fact that you like. Liverpool and I like nothing is healthy.

cuz it's a disagreeably that's healthy. It doesn't threaten the way you think of. me. I will never not belong here anymore. in this friendship. So we can so I'm. training that muscle and I'm learning a. little bit of rejection here and a. little bit of being wrong here and. sometimes giving in cuz I've learned. that sometimes in those healthy. disagreeabilities people go oh I see. >> Okay I am having such a moment. I I do. love you even though and we'll go to. Anfield after pickle ball. >> You will never walk alone. [laughter]. >> Wait, he looked me dead. He looked me.

dead ass in the eye and said that like. you meant it. Um I got goosebumps when. [laughter] you said it. Thank you. Welcome. Yeah. Okay. [laughter]. >> What is he doing? >> He's such a troll. >> He said he trolled me, right? >> He knows exactly. [laughter] He knows. exactly to be to be a to be an excellent. troll, you have to be willing to delve. into the depths of the things that you. wish to troll about. That's that's. Eugene's level of dedication. He'll.

learn players, coaches, games, everything so that he can fully. participate in the level of trolling. that he needs to. >> Yeah. I mean, I felt I felt like you. just did something where it's like I'm. like, "Hey." And they're like, "Oh, I'm. bleeding." [laughter] LIKE LIKE I I JUST. GOT shiv by like like Yeah. But but I. didn't even feel it going. >> No, no, [laughter] no, no, no, no. Really gently. >> It's a smile. >> Yeah. It's the shing versus the. shanking. [laughter]. >> Okay. I am. Okay. So, what's so weird?

>> She my [laughter]. >> Yeah. Can you put that [ __ ] away? Um. Yeah. This Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Got it. In. your 5 in shorts. [laughter]. OKAY. SO, so I'm like I'm I'm connecting. things that are like maybe true, maybe. not. Let's just try it on. So, you said something. When you listed all the things that are. happening as we disagree, like, oo, I'm.

I'm kind of. >> I'm I'm taking one to the chin. I'm. giving one. I'm being forgiven. I'm. forgiving. There's some grace. like that. back and forth that happens, right? When. you belong and you can really disagree. >> One of the things that I'm tying that to. when you said, you know, we're not kids. are not fighting anymore, which is. probably good that you know, we're not. like, you know, like to the to the. degree that like when I was raised where. you you. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's degrees of. everything. Yeah. >> Right. Exactly. But I will say one of.

the thing that's really one of the. things that's really coming up for me is. the [clears throat] research. on the importance of play. >> Yes. >> And physical play. >> And kind of shoving down play. uh you. know, I'm I'm swinging from the bar and. I kick you and then you you know, because one of the things it does um. when we're young is play teaches us a. lot about how to develop relationships. in the context of learning how to push,

how to be pushed, how to forgive, how. our choices actually impact other people. and how to we can wrestle and have fun. and enjoy it. There's a line. >> Mhm. >> Right. And we're kids are not playing. anymore. >> Kids are on screens. They're not playing. anymore. So I think. >> I'm I I'm just curious about like. it it it goes back to. even our conversation about sanitized.

sanitized interviews or weaponized. interviews. We just don't know how to. get in there and shove around a little. bit and become better human beings. So. >> even when I Sorry. >> Yeah. No, no, I was going to say so, so. even with you know what I love is is the. the framing that you're using there with. the kids. >> Mhm. >> I think we take for granted how. how adept kids are at actually. understanding that play delineates from. life.

So, if you remember being a kid, there. are things that would happen on the. playground or in a play setting that. would hurt you, that would make you. angry, that would make you happy, that. whatever it was, >> but in a strange way, you knew that that. wasn't your life. >> That's 100% true. >> Does that make sense? >> Uh-huh. >> So, you you could say with a kid, I. mean, you're a father, but you could. like say with a kid, you could go, "What. happened?" And then it's like, "Oh, they. were playing, don't push while you're. playing. So, but there was this weird. there was this line where you sort of.

like knew that that happened in the. playland. >> Mhm. >> Even though it was real, but it happened. in playland and then you can now come. back to normal life where it is not. happening. >> You hurt your knee doing. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. that thing. happened there. The person pushed you. there and [clears throat] while it is. still not. >> acceptable, >> it is more acceptable that it happens. there. So if a kid pushes you on the. playground, when I at least when I was. growing up, they would deal with it. differently to if a p kid pushed you in. class. >> Yeah, for sure.

>> Don't play rough, >> right? >> But in class, I was like, "No, no, no. Now you're fighting. This is full on.". >> Okay. I I don't know where this is. going, but this is so true. Okay. Yes. That's true. But you. >> 100%. >> So what what the scar is real, the. bandage is real, but it happened there. >> in a context where it was normalized. >> Yes. And it was almost not real. >> That's that's the main thing for me is. that it was almost not real. Maybe that's where. cuz I'm starting to realize here there's. a pattern of.

the effects of things that we feel. >> Say for example, you're in a. relationship. >> Yes. >> And then you are being vulnerable to. this person. >> Yeah. >> And then they throw it back at you. >> Oh god. >> Later on like no, it happened there. >> Yeah. >> When I was feeling this, but now you. bring it here. So that scar is real. That pain is real, but it's at the wrong. place. We're not at the playground. So. you're not allowed to shove me. And then. the fall won't be associated with play. >> Yeah, it's not. >> Yes, the fall is real because now you've. taken what should be happening there and. it's happening here.

>> So the best way I can if I go back to. sports, this this is what I will say. One of the things I try to remind myself. of is the fact that. >> there are many things happening in the. world that are merely magnifying glasses. on a symptom, but they're not the cause. So where I'll go back on the sports. thing is I'll go. it is sad to say but it's probably true. I don't think domestic abuse changed. because of sports. I don't know the numbers but if I was if. I was to bet I would say I don't think.

that domestic abuse changed because of. sports. >> No. >> I still go back to the bucket. I go that. man uses the sports. >> to fill his bucket. Who's in the house. with him? His wife and kids. >> Unprocessed rage. >> Yeah. But the buck he used so that. sports game became the thing that like. all right now I've got the excuse. It's the excuse. >> but the excuse would have come from. anything and anywhere. >> And so that's that's why so may maybe.

this this will help like what I what I. what I love about it in the right ways. One of the things that has gone down in. soccer at least over the years racism. has gone down. There's still many. instances but it's definitely gone down. in football and footballing. >> Another thing that's gone down is. violence. >> I agree. >> Right. >> So the hooligans. >> Yeah. It's really really it's really. gone down. There's still definitely case. of but it's not what it used to be. [snorts]. >> And again this is just me and my. observation of the game. I think one of.

the things we take for granted in the. sport and I I'll show you why why I. think this is important. is I think it when athletes themselves. saw and treated each other like humans. beyond the the uniforms I think the. teams and the like the fans also started. seeing that as a possibility. >> Mhm. >> Subconsciously or consciously. And what I mean by that is. >> I agree. >> If your team is playing on the field and.

they go punch the other team, something. went wrong on the field and they start. punching. I believe you are more likely. to feel like it is apt for you to go and. punch someone outside cuz they're. wearing another uniform, >> right? >> That's what I believe, >> right? If they do it first. >> Oh, I think violence is normalized then. >> Yeah. You go like this is what we need. to do to the other. >> Yeah. This is normalized. This is. >> because my because the people I look to, they do it. I will go outside and I I. too shall do it. >> But when you see them helping each other.

up, hugging, talking after the game, just like not having. >> to give the other person a breather. >> sort of what happened in in was it one. of those big Wrestlemania at Madison. Square Garden where like I think it was. like I think was it Brett Hart or I. don't know who was breaking off. It. might have been like um who's the guy. with the kick again? What was his name? They say I'm sexy. Shawn Michaels. Yeah. When they were like they were breaking. off. Remember what did you I had to do. the move to get. >> distinctly gravitate to they say I'm. >> I thought it was the song I'm sexy I.

don't know how to dance. I'm sexy. >> cognitive bias [laughter]. >> no. >> the world of science we call that leave. me alone so. >> I I I'm like fascinated. >> NO NO [laughter] LIKE ABOUT WIMBLEDON. >> no I know it's a long explanation but. this is what I mean. >> no I'm tracking. >> in that moment yeah. >> what the wrestlers did was so some. wrestlers were breaking off to a. different federation. It was like live and. >> and then on the night they stopped in. the middle of a fight. >> and they went and they hugged each other.

and they were like, "I'm going to miss. you." And but they were like like. enemies on the wrestling scene. >> Yeah. They were the rivals. >> Mhm. >> I love those human moments in sports. They're my favorite. >> But so many people in wrestling and the. fans, they were so angry. because it like broke the thing that. they were trying to maintain. >> Do you know what I mean? >> Directly in the camera like Yeah. They. they let their humanity out a little. bit. >> But more than that, for me, what I think. was the people, especially the fans that. night who were there, I think they were. angry as well because you you've taken.

away our sort of like not that people. were going to go punch each other. I. don't think wrestling at hooligans, >> but you've sort of put the. responsibility. back on us now. >> to check ourselves. >> because you can't go that they hate each. other and beat each other. So, you're. like, >> so my rage is just my rage. It's it's. not a Does this make sense? >> It's my thing. It's not their thing. And. so when I when I extrapolate it further, I go world leaders.

I don't think you can take for granted. how in the United States, people always. talk about people are more polarized. people. Yes. But you know what we should. never take for granted. is the fact that over the past few. decades, fewer and fewer politicians. from opposite sides of the aisle, cuz. there's only two here for some crazy. reason, don't come out together and do things. together and show each other together. and be they don't. And one of the one of the worst examples.

of this for me was when I think it was. like Chris Christie was fighting, you. know, up against Hillary Clinton back in. the. >> I was like, but these people they're. they're like friends. They get along. It. felt like wrestling. >> But I was like, but their fans don't. know. >> The fans don't know that they can argue. about law and still get along. Mhm. >> The fans don't know that they're arguing. in Congress, but then they go have lunch. together. The fans don't know this.

>> Theater, >> but I'm just saying it's in theater, right? >> No, but I'll say even, right? >> Okay. >> Theater. >> Yeah. But I'm saying even beyond. theater, let's even give them the. benefit of the doubt. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It may not be theater. It's an aspect of. what they do. When you when you work in. government, you argue against the other. side. You fight against the other side. That is part of the job. you're playing. a sport of fighting in politically, but it would be nice if you showed that. you also see them as humans when you're. not fighting because I do think then.

your fans in the stands would go, "Oh, oh, Mitch McConnell goes for lunch every. day with, you know, Chuck Schum. >> It's why people lose their mind when. they see George W. Bush and uh Michelle. Obama.". >> Yeah. Yeah. People are like, "No, >> people are because now they seem like. outliers cuz they do that when they when. they get along." But that used to be. normal. And I think if you if the fans. don't see it, if the people don't see. it, we take for granted how much it's. monkey see monkey do. >> Yeah. But I think um I when I look at.

sports, I look at how cuz I like. watching boxing, but this one referee, I. don't know his name, but whenever he's. officiating a fight, he also has blood. on his shirt. >> Damn. Have you seen that referee? I. don't watch boxing. Like gets in there. and he's like, >> "What does he look like?". >> Um he's got a mustache. Mustache. Yeah, >> I know. I think I know. >> Yeah. He's the only He's the only. referee. >> He's the black guy. Yeah. Yeah. I know. the guy. I know the guy you're talking. about. >> It feels like. >> he's been in the game. >> He's been in the game. It feels like he. can't take a side because you don't know. whose blood that is.

>> But it also I've seen it with football. as well. There's coaches who are calm, who will just sit there or with their. hands behind or who will just calm the. players down. But there's other coaches. who are like. >> and the fans get instigated, you know, and the outrage becomes more but the the. coaches where I feel like if something. wrong happens in the field, they're the. first person to go, "Yeah, they take responsibility for the men. that they lead. And I think that's. what's missing right now. There's not.

enough emotional refereeing that people. who know better can do. people who can. stand up for each other, who can get. themselves bloodied, although not. needing to, but then they can get in. there and go, "This doesn't need to be. said. That bucket does not need to be. spilled, and it wasn't your fault that. it was spilled on you.". >> Can I can I challenge this a little bit? >> Mhm. >> I agree with you, but I actually don't. think it's a fault thing. I think it's. an amplification thing. I would argue there are as many people. online who are putting out positive as. negative, >> right? People, not bots and things.

Let's So, let's let's exclude that cuz a. lot of the internet is just fake. It's. like 40% or it's a crazy number of like. things like I get a I get a thing from. Instagram that literally will say 51,000. of your followers are bots. Please. delete like. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So there's a large portion. >> keeping them [laughter]. there's a large portion. >> FAN. to me bot [laughter] HP2811. So so so let's exclude that part the.

fake part of it. I'm saying the people. online. >> Yeah. >> If I again if I was just to guess I. would think you probably find it's an. equal amount maybe even more positive. >> But I think those people don't get. amplified. >> H. >> I think the person especially in the. digital world we live in even in the. political etc. I think the people who. step in. >> to try and referee moments the people. who try and do that I don't think they. get amplified. They really really don't. No, I'm I'm I'm like fixing to square. up. Like I No, I uh Okay,

I agree with everything you're saying. and I agree with everything you're. saying. >> Please come live at our house. >> Yeah. Yeah, I will. Um bring pickle. ball. Yeah, we'll make a net. I'm so frustrated right now that that I. think everything you're saying is true. I. think. I wish there was another name for. liberal democracy besides liberal.

democracy because people hear the word. liberal as the adjective to the type of. democracy and they go they go just. freaking crazy. But democracy. I think democracy depends on what you're. describing. [clears throat] I think. that's I think democracy depends on what. you're describing. Democracy depends on. people understanding that we are not. hating that politicians are not hating. each other. They are lunching but. they're debating politics. They're. debating you know that is. >> I absolutely believe that.

authoritarianism. >> um depends on the vilification and. dehumanization of political opponents. So when Trump, you know, whatever his. thing, true socials, >> it reminded me of your joke. [laughter]. >> It reminded me of your. >> Don't put me back in there. Let's move. on. Don't put me back in there, please. >> I'm like, you own this freaking. platform. [laughter]. Why do you have to have the real doll, not real dolls on top? 4732. Like, dude.

[laughter] Um, anyway, but. >> I think like when when Robert Müller. died. >> Yeah. >> And he said, "I'm glad he's dead." Mhm. >> Like that is not that that that could be. pathology, but it's also. authoritarianism from the playbook. >> Oh, for sure. >> So, it absolutely depends on that. >> Um, but. >> what's scarier to me is democracy. depends on. understanding that policy differences.

can exist between people who see each. other as humans with different ideas. about how to achieve the same goal. And. what I think is interesting about. this tying sport back into that where. you see those coaches and this is this. is incredible. So when you look at the. research on [clears throat]. two types of teams, a team playing to. not lose.

versus a team playing to win. >> So I'll take you right back to kind of. the birds and the Chiefs Super Bowl. Yeah. >> Um, one of, and this is what's so. interesting about what you're saying. about amplification, one of if you if you blindfolded me and. put my back to the field, it doesn't. matter the sport, and just had me listen. to what it sounds like on the bench from.

team A and the bench on team B, I could. predict probably with 90% accuracy the. winner based on the contagion. of. emotion in the sideline. So negative. contagion, the coach that's losing his. [ __ ] that kind of stuff. Um, negative. contagion is one of the biggest. predictors of a team playing to not. lose. >> No way, right? >> So let's say you, let's say, uh, let's take American football. So I. fumble the ball.

>> Yeah. >> And I come back to the sideline and. you're like, "What the [ __ ] dude? That is so cont negative contagion for. so so amplification it is amplification. because we know that all of the social. media platforms we know that we can keep. people on the platforms longer through. negativity than positivity. We know. commercially. >> incentives again aligned incentives. right so the more vitriol and hate the. longer I stay on. We also know that in.

general negative rumination and emotion. lasts longer than positive emotion. So, >> but if I get off the field and then you. hit my helmet and say, "You're good. >> You're good.". >> Mhm. >> When I after I've dropped the ball and. caused a turnover, >> you're a thief. >> I'm safe. Yeah. It it And it actually. predicts winning. It predicts score. >> Wow. >> So, one of the things that just. happened, like I'm a huge Spurs fan. Let's go. I love the Spurs. I love Pop.

I love Tim Duncan. I love David. Robinson. I love Wimi. I love the Spurs. I love Genobi. Like, let's go. So, in a. press conference, I could cry and tell. the story. And first of all, like. watching David Robinson and Tim Duncan. on the sidelines watching the Spurs. right now. >> Intergenerational joy. >> I mean, >> I just cry when I see it, literally. And. so during a press conference they asked. Wimby, "Is it really scary for you this. this like threat of seeing those guys on.

the sideline like like just legends, right? These legends." And he said, "No, it just feels safe. I feel held. Like if. I if I fall, there'll be someone there.". Look at Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan goes to. takes goes to rehab with Papovich every. day. >> Wow. I mean, this is like. this is not soft. [ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> This is what it means to win. Positive.

emotional contagion. >> Mhm. >> Love, care, that's winning, you know, and people. don't get it because they're so afraid, you know, that it's not masculine and. it's not tough. But love is what wins. Leading with it. Yeah. >> Leading with love. >> Yeah. We were saying this the other day. We're saying kids get taught this. almost instinctually and automatically.

from their parents to lead with love. We're just using two words that lynch. everything in. Thank you and please. So before you have. to say the thing that you are thankful. for, you have to say thank you for. >> and before you have to ask for anything. and be vulnerable and open yourself up. You have to say may I please have da da. da da da. And then we as people as we. grow older, we find ways not to use. those words and lead with love first, right? You be like, "Yeah, yeah, for. that thing." Mhm. Yeah. You know what I.

mean? But you're like, "No, you could. have said, "Thank you for that thing.". >> Or, "May I please have this thing?". >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Thank Yeah. Yeah. So, you're avoiding leading with love. >> and you're avoiding vulnerability. >> Yeah. Because you know that once he said. this the other day, he was like once. you've said, "May I please put yourself. fully. >> and then you've put the request last. So. you were like me my need and the request. may I please have whatever it is and. that's what not what we want and I feel.

like adults can just go back by just. using those two words again please and. thank you. I think they're functions of love and. they're function they're functions of. love. >> Uh I think hard they're functions of. love. They're functions of. vulnerability. >> I haven't thought about it enough but I. guess what I where I'd be curious is do. they require a level of safety? >> They definitely definitely. >> I think no a thousand% they definitely. do. >> because each one. >> requires you to in some way shape or.

form humble yourself. >> Right. So. >> there is a humility. >> Yeah. Because thank you for opens you up. to debt. >> It does. >> It immediately opens you up to debt. >> Neither one of us like that. We don't. like that over here. [laughter]. >> We don't like debt. I don't want to OWE. YOU. >> You owe ME A PICKLE GAME. [laughter]. >> YOU'RE DIFFERENT CUZ you're wearing. short shorts. >> But it's different. Yeah. You see, there's no debt now. It's paid. But you. see what I'm saying? >> Paid in full. They [laughter]. >> People take that for granted. One of the. reasons thank you can be so hard is.

because it opens you up to debt. Thank. you for. looking after me when I was sick. Thank. you for coming to my birthday party. Thank you for loaning me that money. Thank you for calling me. Thank you for. because we live in a world where. somewhere along the line we've been. taught whether it's internally, externally, whatever, >> that debts have to be repaid. You know, Lannister always pays his debts. >> And so now. >> it fits it hits against. hyperindividualization. There you go. So. now for me if I say if I say thank you.

>> damn okay you've got it now it's a debt. now yeah and maybe your parents taught. you that for instance so you go like hey. thank you for fetching me from school. mom and then your mom goes yeah next and. now when I ask you to do your clean your. room later you better do it. >> a damn. >> so you know what this there's a meme. right now for Mother's Day that I. freaking hate. >> it's thinking about not saying thank you. to your mom This is how long an epidural. needle is.

>> You see, it's debt. >> Yeah, it's debt. >> That's that's what I mean. >> But love is not duty. >> Yeah, but that's but this is but this is. what I mean is like. >> love is not. >> love is not duty. >> Yes, but it is debt. This is this is. what I mean. So all these things, same. thing. Open you up, >> please. I mean, you are completely at. the mercy. >> Open. Yeah. >> You are completely at somebody's mercy. It's easier for me to say, "Yo, Eugene, are you going to finish that?". >> Yes. >> Now I'm almost doing you a favor. You. going to finish that? No. [laughter] All. right, man. Let me handle that for you. I I didn't You didn't do anything for.

me. I Are you going to finish that? You're not going to finish it, so I will. finish it. Whereas, if I go, Eugene, can. I have the rest, please? May I have the. rest of your your drink? >> Yeah. >> Now, you've opened yourself up. >> I'm dead, bro. >> You've given me enough time to even. decide what I want to say. I'm dead. >> It's a signal. It's too And boy, we hate. this. Um, we love death by rugged. individualism in this c country, but. >> it is a signal to please and thank you. >> of something we're not good at, which is. interdependence.

>> Yes. Completely. >> Yeah. >> Interependence. I need you and you need me. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I'm going to use a language because. like say something like, I really thanks. for taking care of me when I was sick. last week. Say that to me. >> Thanks for taking care of me when I was. sick. >> There's nothing. >> Yeah. >> It was nothing. Yeah. >> Like as opposed to you're welcome and. I'm so glad you're better. >> Damn. >> You know, it's it's or. >> Yeah. >> Um.

[laughter]. >> when my kids were growing up, [snorts]. we really taught them that when someone. said, "I'm sorry," to never say, "It's. okay.". >> Say more. >> So, we always taught them to say, "Thank. you. I appreciate the apology. Like I. just say thank you that I appreciate. that. So like let's say. >> Yeah. But but why? I'd like to know the. why. >> Because it's not okay. It was not okay. So. >> it was an offense. >> It was it was not okay actually. And so.

it's not my job to make you feel better. and I appreciate you making repair. So. So let's say. >> um you say to me, >> Rene, I'm sorry that text came off as. shitty. >> Mhm. So, you say that to me, >> Bnee, I'm I'm sorry that text came off. as shitty. >> Thank you. I appreciate it. So, the first time I had to apologize to. one of my kids for kind of losing my. cool, I went and I said, you know, I'm.

really I think he was 10. I said, I'm. really sorry about how I showed up. Um I. think I got scared and I wasn't my be my. best self and I apologize. [laughter] My. son looked at me and he goes, "Thank. you, I was like, "God damn, you're. grounded, dude." [laughter]. I was like, "Smart." YOU KNOW, EVERY parenting gene that was set by my. parents. >> That's so funny. >> Who would have killed me in that moment.

>> That is so funny. >> When he said, "Thank you. I appreciate. it." I was like, >> he didn't absolve. He wasn't like, "It's. okay, mommy. You're doing your best, and. I know what you're going through." No. >> Thank you. I appreciate it. I I. literally had to like close this door. and be like, >> [laughter]. >> I was like, "What the fuck?" Um, but I. really because like you know, you see. brother I have a daughter and a son and. you know Ellen might like weigh Charlie, you know, and then. >> it's like how do you think it feels for.

your brother, >> right? >> It probably hurts. I'm like, right, so. what what do we need to do next? And. this is like such a pain in the ass cuz. like I'm cooking and taking a work call. I have to pause everything and it's I'm. like, you know, I was RAISING LIKE TELL. YOUR BROTHER YOU'RE SORRY. I'LL KICK. YOUR ASS AND YOU'LL be grounded for 6. weeks, you know. So then I had to sit. down and say, "How do you think that. feels this and this?" You know, and so. >> then, okay, Charlie, I'm sorry. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Repair. See, that scenario that you painted.

though is one that I often mourn. [clears throat]. >> when I when I think about. >> the cost of hyperindividualism and. extreme capitalism, the way we. experience it now. It's it's made us. trade without realizing. our independence, but then also our. level of connectedness. >> Dependence. Yeah. >> Literally what you're saying there. >> I'm cooking. I'm on a call and I'm. looking after the kids.

>> Mh. >> And then I can't help but extrapolate. that to everything in society. I go, "How many people are cooking, taking a. call, looking after the kids, and then. we expect them to be more patient in. traffic?" Do you get what I'm saying? >> This is how my bucket gets full, actually. >> That's what I'm saying. That's exactly. what I'm coming to. >> This is my rage bucket. >> There you go. Because you're cooking, you're taking a call, you're looking. after the kids, and and then on top of. that, you got your work. You're cooking. You're taking off the And you got this. You're cooking. You get what I'm saying? >> And you got the patriarchy and fascism.

>> There you go. >> Yeah. like. >> whereas whereas when we look not to like. some magical concept to a thing that. many peoples we're doing all over the. world. I'm constantly shocked at how few adults. you need to look after groups of. children. >> yes. >> we take that for granted even even now. people have a babysitter for their child. a babysitter for a child. >> that's true. >> you know that you go to places where one. adult can look after like a squad of.

like 15 to 20 kids and it's fine. >> That's how I was raised. >> It is fine. >> Mhm. >> But we don't we we've like we forgotten. what that load does. Like if you if you. live in a community, if you if if you if. we didn't and I understand why these. things exist, but if we didn't live in a. community where [snorts] you know like. the emotional boundaries between our. spaces also like enforced our physical. ones, >> you realize like one person could cook. and go like I'm going to cook and now.

all the kids are in one place. >> and then the person who's looking after. all the kids and then other people are. helping with the cooking and then other. community. >> Yeah. But I but people sometimes treat. it like you you you're you're pitching. like a weird commune type. But I'm like. but we used to like do this. We had the. ability to do this. And life is a. constant balance between how much do I. have to myself time privacy etc. And how. much do I get to bear with others. because it's necessary. >> Yeah. And if we get that balance wrong,

and I think we're getting it wrong, especially in the West, what it then. means is your bucket is going to fill up. so much faster, and we're just going to have less time. to be because everyone is doing the work. that each person needs to do when one. person could have been doing a bunch of. work for a bunch of people, giving them. time off, giving them, you know, where I. realized it, funny enough, one of the. craziest realizations for me, I love speaking to people who've been. married for long and people who've been. divorced and people one of the most.

fascinating conversations I had was was. with a man who got divorced. Him and his. wife were married for like 25 years. they got divorced [snorts] and he he he. even said he was like um the reason I. asked him was because we were in the. same vehicle being [snorts] transported. to a hotel and he was on a facetime with. his ex-wife and they were laughing and. chatting and blah blah blah and shar. okay bye bye bye um. and then we started talking you know. just conversation one thing led to. another and he was like oh no that I'm.

divorced that's my ex-wife I was like. damn you guys seemed pretty cool he said. yeah I'm really lucky we had a great. divorce you know as great as a divorce. can. He said, "But now we always joke about. how we're living our best lives, me and. her." And I was like, "What do you. mean?" And he said, "Because we didn't. realize the whole time when we were. married that we didn't have to do all. the work together. We could give each. other a break and one of us could work. and one of us could rest.". >> And he's like, "Now we do that. So now.

when I'm working with the kids, she's. completely free. When she's working with. the I'm completely free." And we joke. and go, why didn't we. >> do this? >> Do marriage [clears throat] like this? >> Because one of the things that drained. them was the fact that they were. constantly doing they were up at night, then they were at school, then they were. at then they were at then they so both. people are getting tired doing a job. that [clears throat] one person can do. >> and then when they now split the labor. they're living their best lives.

>> That's true actually. >> And my brain genuinely finds these. connections through all things in. society. genuinely like all things all. things in society. We don't understand how much we can be. helping each other with just things, but. we haven't been sold that as a as a. feasible way to live. And then we wonder. why we experience the effects that we. do. >> I mean, I think that's true. I mean, Steve and I will be together for 40. years. >> My husband. Yeah. >> So, what was this whole flirting thing. about then? [laughter]. >> Well, were we flirting? >> I thought we were going somewhere, you.

and I. Now you bring up Steve. [laughter]. >> You really have to be careful about how. [laughter]. Wait, I want to know what was flirting. Joking. >> No, >> cuz we were going to play pickle ball. together. >> Oh, no. He's joking. This is This is the. troll. Welcome to my life, [laughter]. Renee Brown. Welcome to my life. >> I mean, if I have to flirt with you to. get you on the pickle ball court, [laughter]. I'm not above that. >> Oh, man. Eugene. Goodbye, Steve.

[laughter]. >> Don't press [music] anything. We've got. more what now after this. This message is a paid partnership with. [music] Apple Card. Imagine this. You're. at a checkout counter. You're ready to. pay when you realize you don't have your. wallet. D. You could drive all the way back home. and you could get it. But you remember. that you have your Apple card on your.

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They were just videos. >> What kind of videos? >> That's not the point. >> Sure. >> The point is I knew that I didn't want. to order those videos anymore cuz I'd. spent too much money on it. It was. videos on how to not spend money online. [laughter] I felt like I'd been duped. Point is, Apple showed me what I was. spending my money on and I was able to. change my spending habits. And you can. do it, too. I earn up to 3% daily cash. back on every purchase with my Apple. Card. That's unlimited daily cash back. no matter where I shop. What a.

refreshing change of pace. Apply for. Apple Card in the Wallet [music] app on. your iPhone. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank. USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and. more at applecard.com. >> [music]. >> You know, actually, there's something I. was wondering the other day. You you. work with a lot of um company leaders, right? Like CEOs and everything. I was. wondering if you have any intimate. conversations with them about.

>> how they or or rather what role they. should be playing in a country that's. falling apart at the seams. >> I have Yes. Yeah. I mean, I do. Um, let. me go back to Steve because I want to. tell you something about what that that. you're the connection you made in that. car ride. >> Yeah. >> I think that saved my marriage, >> like what you're talking about. And. >> I fought it tooth and nail. Um, people. always say like, "God, you y'all been. together for 40 years, you know, what's.

the secret?" And I always remember. someone asking Paul Newman that about. his marriage with Joey, you know, and. she he said, "Neither one of us wanted. to get a divorce at the same time." Um, and I think I think you know when you're. talking decades that there's some truth. to that. But I also think that um. >> I mean I hate this for you, but he's an. amazing guy. Um, just really sweet. Um, just a kind, strong, but very loving. person, pediatrician. Um [snorts].

but every day he just saw woman after. woman after woman drowning in resentment. and rage and grief. >> with a baby on the hip and a stew on the. stove and you know and then every now. and then you know a husband would come. in and say oh here's my note about what. I'm supposed to ask you and could you. write everything that we need to do on a. note so you know you know, and he was.

also raised by a single mom. >> Um, and a Latina single mom, you know, >> so he he had firsthand firsthand. >> Yeah. He had very firsthand knowledge. and he's, you know, and I remember when we had our. first daughter, I was still in my PhD. program and. I said, "Oh, God, you know, baby's. crying." He's like, "I got it." And I. said, "No, I I need to get up with you.". And he said, "I don't understand.". And you know, and I remember this is. like this is so related to it. [snorts]. I remember going to a therapist before.

we even had kids and said, "I I think. I'm going to get a divorce. Like this is. I just don't think this is working.". >> Wow. >> And she said, "I could see that." And I. said, "Right, right." [laughter]. Like I left this like therapist. certified problematic. And then she's. like, "He just likes you so much more. than you like you. I can see how that. would be frustrating. Yo, >> wait. I love why we're pointing at him. Is this what makes him undatable by his. therapist? [laughter]. >> No, no, no, no, no. He's He's saying.

this is what we've been talking about. [laughter]. >> That wasn't that wasn't that wasn't a. that wasn't an accusatory snap. That's a. That's like you hear this. That's That's. what he's saying. >> I I read that. conversation. That's his. >> That's his like we said liking trumps. everything. >> Yes. You have to really like the person. cuz loving them sometimes you love them. more than but when you like someone when. you like your sweater when you like your. life is huge massive love but that.

that's a that's an even that's a next. level one of Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> He liked you more than you like. yourself. >> Yeah. I said [ __ ] you dude you're fired. >> I'll find another therapist. Yeah. But I. it was true. And I think part of it was. [clears throat]. >> I think coming from a single mom. >> Yeah. in a pretty racist San Antonio and. a Latina single mom who was hustling and. grinding, you know, and then I'm getting. my PhD. I've been when I told the.

program director at the time that I was. pregnant, his first line was literally, "We thought you were going to be. someone.". >> Jeez. >> Yeah. And so I think for Steve, he just. was thought, [snorts]. "You're you're racing. to find a spot under the buckets. you're waiting for the buckets to fall. and then running under them to catch the. [ __ ] confirmation about what you're. afraid of. >> Like move away from the bucket spill, you know, to use our language. Yeah.

Yeah. And so I think for me. >> it was and it and it absolutely comes. back to capitalism. It definitely comes. back to, you know, patriarchy. It comes. back to I should be able to do all this. at one time really well. Never miss a. feeding. Never miss this. And he's like, you know, you've got a grant due. tomorrow. You sleep. >> Okay. >> I'll do this. >> Yeah. >> You know, and then. >> Did you have a lot of guilt in and. around the idea of not doing it? >> Uh yeah. And then I would be like, "Oh.

my god, how am I going to do this? I've. got this I'm teaching, the class is. going long and Ellen's got this thing at. 3:30 and can you be there?" And he said, "I I can't be because I'm working." I. Okay, I'll I'll reschedle. He goes, "And. you can't be because you're working.". >> Wow. But then when my daughter turned 16. for Mother's Day, I got a card from her. that said, "Thank you for showing me. what it looks like to have a career. that's meaningful for you and be a great.

mom. That's what I want. >> But and I wish that you didn't feel as. bad about it as you do sometimes. Wait, I'm going to do that part better.". that the. >> I know. >> in in other societies and other levels. of life that inconsistency for one. parent or the other to be there might. have been looked at as irresponsibility, >> right? >> But you allowed yourself to be. inconsistent about it. I'm not always. going to be there on Wednesday or for. your doctor's appointments or to pick. you up from tennis. I won't always be.

there, but it doesn't mean I don't love. you. I'm leading with love. I'm doing. what I need to do, what I love doing. He's also doing what he needs to do and. what he loves doing. But the. inconsistency of the Wednesday pickup. and the Saturday drop off won't be. there, but it doesn't mean it's the. absence of love. >> Oh my god. And this ties right back to. what you said because what happened that. specific day? >> Tell me. >> My mom went. >> No. Community. >> Yes. >> Community. >> Yeah. And so it was Yeah.

>> Yeah. Community. >> My mom went. >> Yeah. Or. >> Yeah. when I had to put her in, you. know, daycare, my sister was like, "Oh, cuz I have two younger sisters. I'll. pick her up on Tuesday and Thursday." My. other sister was like, "I've got. Fridays." And then when there, you know, it was like, so we were definitely. raised in that. >> community. >> that that and we didn't have the 1 to5. ratio. We just had the oldest person to. the 13 kids that were there. So the So. we got the 16year-old taking care. >> Yeah. But it works.

>> Yeah. And then we like. >> people forget that it works. Every. parent best parent ever. >> Guys, we're still here. This is what I. always try and tell people is I go, "Sometimes in life now, we're creating. safeguards for things that were never. really a problem.". >> Do you know what I mean? They go like, "Right now, there's a a 15-year-old. taking care of a a seven-year-old." I'm. like, "Yeah, that and it works. It you. It works surprisingly well. Great with. Yeah. But [laughter] I'm saying like. this should not be the permanent. solution. But we take for granted. >> that as a species we are quite.

interdependent and it works. It is not. the anarchy. Yeah. It's just not the. anarchy that you sell it as. >> Yeah. And it's why it's like. >> Yes. But you see I and this is where I. have like a my conspiracy theory mind. goes. You cannot show people that it. works because then they will not. participate in an economy. they won't. buy the [ __ ] they need. >> Because if you if you learn that your. mom or dad is willing to take care of. your kids on certain days, >> why are you now dipping into an app that. finds babysitters for you?

>> Why are you doing afterare? >> If you know, did you know this is going. to blow your mind? Both of you, I hope. you're ready for this. >> Did you know. that someone in your life is willing to. drop you off at the airport? >> No. >> This is a real thing. I know a lot of. people are going to be like, "That's not. a thing, Trevor." by Huber. >> You know, you see, it's funny THAT YOU. SAID [laughter] THAT. >> You see, I love that. >> I got from both sides. >> YOU SEE, BUT YOU SEE WHAT THEY'VE DONE? [laughter] I KNOW. I know. I know. You. see what they've done. What they've done. so well is they've made us replace.

ourselves as the default. >> and now we've thought of the service as. the default. >> We've replaced each other as the. default. >> Or here's what Yes. And here's what's. the other thing that's happening is I. feel bad. >> because I couldn't pick you up on. Wednesday. >> Yes. >> So, what I'm going to do is I'm going to. take my eight-year-old for a splurge at. the cosmetic store so she can get. 8-year-old facials and 8-year-old. lipsticks. I mean, it's like it is there. is a Yeah. I mean, this But.

>> I hate the latestage capitalism thing. because it's just true. But what are we. going to do? I mean, like like. >> No, I look I. >> What do you do? I I think it here's the. thing that I try and tell people and. that's why I haven't forgotten my. question to you. When I have the. opportunity to talk to like CEOs or big. companies anyway. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I genuinely ask them this question. I go. I said, "Do you realize I understand. that you live quarter to quarter? I. understand this. So maybe you're not the. person to speak to, but you do realize.

that society doesn't live quarter to. quarter. and over the long term you will have. fewer quarters because at some point. society is going to turn against you. I. don't know when but I know that they. will because what you are doing is. unsustainable. >> Mhm. >> It is unsustainable. We now live in a. world where we don't even own things. that we buy. You ever think about how. crazy that is? Mhm. >> You buy music now. Have you ever read. the terms and conditions? I do this to.

myself sometimes just because I'm. entertained. >> It'll be like new terms and conditions. and I go read it. >> You know, now on many streaming services. where you buy not I'm not saying you you. have a streaming service, not Netflix. >> Mhm. >> You buy an album or you buy a movie. Buy. it. >> You know that you're not buying the. movie, you are buying the right. >> to watch the movie or stream it as long. as that service exists. >> That's right. Yeah. >> So if they go away, the money goes as. well. >> Yeah. But but you don't know this. You. think you are buying Bad Boys the movie.

>> and you have it. You do not have it. You. you don't even have the right to give it. to your friend to watch anymore. You We. live in a world where now we're not even. This is like the furthest stage of. latestage capitalism is. >> para consumption. >> That's what I mean is like before at. least it was like okay capitalism is bad. but at least you were getting what you. bought. >> You were getting what you bought. Now. they're like no no no no you do not own. your car. You do not own your music. You. do not own and it will they will keep. finding more and more ways for it to. happen.

And we don't realize that the the. infinite of I tell leaders this all the. time. I go at some point it's going to. come to you. Trump is a byproduct of. this. Yes, you know Trump. Yeah. Look, I. think he's very like good at being. charismatic. He's very good at seeming. real on stage and all these things. All. these things. Yes. But. >> him and the timing of him had to be. perfect. >> I believe that's true. >> Him and the timing of him. >> People love disruptors when something. needs to be disrupted.

>> Mhm. >> You get what I'm saying? >> 100%. People don't want to hear that. though. That's really tough for people. to hear. >> Yeah. So, people love disruptors when. something needs to be disrupted. >> That's hard. >> Zoran Mandani, there's a p version of it. completely opposite where you go like, well, how did his thing? Because people then again went actually. you're right. You can't afford to live. in New York. No matter what your job is, it's like only the super super super. rich are having a good time in New York. Places are empty. People can't live. What's the point of the city anymore? >> And then they go then Zoran comes in and.

people are like, "How could anyone vote. for like Yeah. The only reason you don't. understand it is because clearly you're. living in the lap of luxury and you're. so removed from reality that you don't. understand the people." Yeah. All that's. why all the newspapers were like, "Is. Zoran going to destroy New York?" It's. like no that's the question that the. boss of your newspaper has not what the. people have. >> these things cannot go on forever. >> Mhm. >> You cannot extract from people forever. At some point people go you know what no.

look what's happening now. There are. cities and counties and places where in. America they're going to approve the. data center. This is a community. >> The community is going. >> I know you want to build a data center. here. No. Oh, but AI, but they're like, eh, [clears throat]. our electricity prices keep going up. Nobody comes to us to tell us why or we. don't see the benefits. >> Our water's running out. We don't see. the benefits. And on top of that, it's.

not even like you're giving us this. thing for free in some. >> We still have to subscribe and. >> Yeah. So, why would we actually No, no, thank you. No more. And I think the more. people realize that the more they are. going to do something cuz they can do. something. >> and then that's when business is going. to remember like business didn't stop. putting asbestos in things cuz it was. fun for them. >> Business didn't stop you know or start. putting catalytic in converters into. cars because it was fun for them. >> Business will always work within the.

parameters it is given. >> Yeah. >> It's a shark. It grows as big as its. tank. >> Mhm. >> It's as simple as that. And that's why I like I I find myself. wondering I'm like is it because but but. you you literally work with CEOs, you. help them the human side of the company. I would love to know what some of the. conversations you are that you have with. these leaders in this climate where you. go, hey, you realize you you you're. contribute you're contributing on one. end or the other. either the threads you.

pull are so tight that people then make. more extreme decisions. >> or the example you're setting is so you. know callous that people then feel like. they should be does this ever come in on. on that level. >> yeah I mean I think it comes in on a. daily basis I think first of all I just. want to say [clears throat]. the attention in the stories and the. examples that you're given. on something we never talk about which. is the importance of conditions for. things to. Yeah,

>> there there's very there are very few. people talking about what conditions. needed to be present for a second Trump. presidency. >> What conditions from Amdani? What what. are the conditions? And it's interesting. because. we. it it it's just a separate conversation, but I just wanted to say that it's very. rare for me to be in a conversation with. someone who appreciates.

that there really is very little that's. as important as understanding. conditions. People just don't understand. it. >> Let me tell you how much people don't. understand it. >> I can't wait. One of the most. fascinating books I ever read was a book. that basically argued pretty. successfully that all the beliefs you. hold are not necessarily beliefs that. you hold. >> They're merely the beliefs that were. available to you in the environment that. you were placed in. >> Mhm. And it shows you how in America for. instance, you just look at mountain. ranges that exist around across the.

country and how water fell on either. side of a mountain range. >> and that tells you whether or not. somebody's conservative or liberal. >> 100%. >> But I don't think many of the people who. are there would think that I am like. this or I I the things I think I believe. >> are actually just primarily influenced. by the condition. I was on this side of. the mountain. There was less water. >> Times were harder. >> Things weren't as And that is why.

whereas on this side we had a river. It. rained more. It did this. There was. there was more. There was more. There. was more work. There was more. So then I. have these views or these ideas. We. [snorts]. constantly take for granted the. environment. Constantly. >> Oh my god. Yeah. I mean this is this is. okay. This could go down. We just have. to do podcast 47 on on on per on on on. systems theory because this is system. theory like person and environment. Um I. think if you understand conditions and.

you understand the neurobiology of the. fact that we are not cognitive beings. >> who [snorts] on occasion feel we are. emotional beings who on occasion think. >> Damn. I think so. If you understand. conditions and person and environment. and you understand. emotion Yeah. and em the neurobiology of. emotion and everything emotion. decision-m emotion everything I think. you we would have a very a much more. clear picture of what we're complicit in. what we're doing and what's happening. I.

think for the conversations. [clears throat]. I have to be really careful about. talking about this and not for NDA. reasons which those are I gota those I. got I'm into those ass high at this. point but it's really because. I didn't come into the work because I. have an expert opinion on how the. straight of hormos is going to affect. supply chain along with tariff like I I. have to understand that stuff because.

I'm mostly just sitting in a meeting. trying to understand if a group of. people at a table can work well enough. together. >> Yeah. >> And have the grounded confidence to make. hard decisions together that are, you. know, I think a lot of times people. people who know me well will say, "Is. your work kind of just a Trojan horse. for making people kinder and braver to. each other?" And I was like, "No, no, it's really about supply chain." Um, you. know, because it's not really. And so. for me, I have to be careful because the. assessment process for me to work with. someone starts with the first question.

of. you want me to come in and make people. braver. Um, I'm I'm happy to talk about that. from an assessment perspective. [snorts]. The opposite of courageous leadership is. not fear. What gets in the way is armor. where you know people who are afraid. every day and they still do brave. things. The opposite of courage is. armor. How do we self-protect and armor. up when we're in fear? That's what.

drives bad strategy, bad human, you. know, bad human interaction. And so if they're like, "Okay, we're. willing to talk about armor in our. company and how we armor up." And I. said, "Great. Then I'm going to talk to. the people with the least formal power. and ask them why armor is required here. >> Oh jeez. >> The vulnerable ones. Yes. >> Right. I'm going to ask the people that. don't look like everybody else that have. the least proximity to power. I'm going. to start there. >> And so I'm really only working with CEOs. who say, "Ask anything you want of. anyone you want.".

>> Oh, interesting. >> I. We need more strategic risk-taking. We. need people to be braver. We need more. collaboration. and we need more. productive challenge. I can't have. people on teams who are afraid to. challenge their boss. Right? >> So I'm like great then this is a good. fit for me. So what I would say in. general and what I see working across. companies globally right now is. [clears throat]. if. you are. trying to create a place a culture and.

it's interesting because the work that I. do you would think because that's where. we start we would measure culture but. actually the first ch things that change. when we go into a company probably not. surprising but counterintuitive to some. is actually performance gets stronger. Wow. >> When you create a workforce of people. who feel seen and respected and heard, performance just sky. And that's whether. we're talking I'm talk working with a. soccer team or I'm working with a. manufacturing company. It doesn't. matter. >> When people feel seen, heard, and.

believed, and trusted, performance goes. through the roof. Wow. >> You cannot stop people, right? >> So, [clears throat] so I'm a hard I'm. not for everyone because we are going to. talk about identity. We're going to talk. about power. We're going to have all the. conversations you're not supposed to be. having right now in organizations. because if you want to drive. performance, we need to talk about that. >> We because because let's say I'm leading. a team and we're the AI adoption team, >> right?

>> It will never work unless you trust me. enough to productively challenge what. I'm saying. >> If you say, "Hey, Bernie, I'm really. excited about what you're excited about. based on the data I have. I don't think. this is going to work." M. >> I'm like, "Okay, Trevor, go. What What. do you What do you see that I don't. see?". >> But I have to believe that I can do. that. >> You have to believe that you're. respected and trusted and your opinion. matters and there won't be the moment. where you're vulnerable and then you'll. pay for that later with a promotion or a. performance review. >> So, what I always say about the people.

that I'm working with are these are. normally CEOs who care more about. winning than their ego. They are willing. to have very hard conversations about. identity, very hard conversations about. power, the misuse of power. They really. want to win on all fronts. And they. believe that winning will require human. beings who are respected and deeply. connected. >> They're not playing not to lose. >> They're not playing that. That is the. metaphor. They're not playing not to. lose. >> They're playing and the hard thing is.

even right now if we go into a really su. a company that has a lot of success. >> Yeah. It is the nature of the seauite to see. the flag planted on the top of the. mountain and [clears throat] say protect. the flag. >> Yeah. >> Protect the success, protect the stock. price, protect the organic growth, protect the revenue. [snorts]. >> What's interesting today. is that mountain is crumbling from the. bottom up. M. >> so it is full of cra it is the the the.

the fault lines are geopolitical. instability um competition market change. AI so you can protect that flag but as. you're protecting it that mountain is. just coming down and down and down so as. a leader right now today the only choice. you have is to look for the next peak. and go and you don't jump from the top. of one mountain to the top of the next. mountain you jump from the top of one. mountain to the side of the next. mountain and you're holding on like this. >> and all the people you lead are tethered.

to you. >> and no one taking them with you. >> You're taking them with you. And I mean, let's just be honest. Like, I think. y'all are smart, fun, but I'm going to. take my chances going alone if we have. to leave. If we if you and I have to if. the three of us for some reason have to. leave out this window, [laughter]. I'm gonna be like, I hope I see y'all. again on the pickle ball court. But. it actually doesn't work cuz if you're. my team and the three of us don't make. it together,

>> the survival is useless. >> Then the survival is useless. So then we. have to be like, "Ah, [ __ ] man. We have. five minutes. The three of us have to go. together. >> What? How do we think we do it?". >> Damn. >> You know, and no idea can be stupid. You're like, "We find a giant crane, we. swing from it.". >> And then I can't say, "Shut the [ __ ]. up." I'm like, "Okay, what kind of. crane?" And this is why this is why I. just I was hoping I could work this in. This is why. you saw the world full of people crying. and cheering for Artemis, too.

>> Mhm. M. >> what we saw were four people from very. different lived experiences who looked. different. loving each other kind to each other. >> needing each other. >> needing each other facing complex. challenges together and winning. >> and definite uncertainty. >> defined by uncertainty. >> yeah 100% that was the bedrock of it all. >> that's that was that that was the yeah. and I'm lucky enough to have taken those. four folks along with all the earthbound.

astronauts at the time through Dare. lead. >> Wow. >> And what I can tell you is when they're. problem solving, if you're like, "Okay, we're on like we're on the 20th floor. We're going to have to go. We're going to have to get out the. window and we're going to have to go and. then we have to stay together." When. you're sitting at the table and there's. thousands of engineers that are involved. in something like Artemis 2, not just. engineers, just Yeah. Yeah. >> When someone says, "We build a giant. crane and we hang it from a cloud." No.

one says, "Dude, shut up." They're like, "Tell me about the crane.". >> Mhm. >> What's a crane made of? >> The guy goes, "Legos." The woman goes, "Okay, Duplo or Lego Legos." Like they. are, it's trust. >> They are willing to venture into the. unknown. >> They are willing, tell Yeah. How does. what would happen if Yeah. What is that? >> Because then all of a sudden they go, "Okay, so what? Let me play back." Which. is one of my favorite tools that we. teach leaders. Let me play back what.

you're saying. >> We're going to build a giant crane. >> Yes. >> It's going to be out of Legos at the. bottom, but Duplo at the top. >> It's going to swing from a cloud and. it's going to grab the capsule and get. it upright before the Navy can get there. and get them out. Is that what you're. saying? >> And you're like, "That's what I think we. could do." Okay. Don't we have something. like that? Don't we have a clown hook. crane over in payload that we were. working on a couple years ago? And the. guy's I mean it's not a giant crane, but. it does operate with a lever like a. crane. Okay. So,

>> playback. >> play the playback because what happens a. lot of times, especially in feedback, is. I say to you, here's what I think is going wrong. I. think you are doing incredible work. you're saying yes to too much and you're. not able to deliver everything on time. because you're saying yes across all. these meetings. I want to help you set. the right boundaries at the right time. >> And you're like, "Okay." And I said, "No, no, Eugene. Play back what you. think you're hearing.". >> Oh. >> And then you say, "I'm an [ __ ] I'm. going to get fired." Because that's.

that's a lot of times. I won't be here. for long. >> Right. Okay. Okay. So, what you. [clears throat] heard me saying is if. you carry on this way, >> you're not going to be here for long. Right. So, we need to do this again then. because what I'm saying is you're doing. excellent work. You're taking on too. much. It's not good for you and there's. no way you can deliver against those. things. Play it back again. You're doing too much. Eugene, you're. carrying this podcast on your shoulders. [laughter]. >> Tri is to wear less sweaters.

>> Wait, did y'all decide on [laughter] the. white t-shirt cardigan? Can I tell you. >> my Can I tell you my my greatest joy in. life [laughter]. my greatest joy. >> You should come your office. >> is when is when I'm wearing the same. outfit as one of my friends. >> because they hate it. >> You don't know. >> I walked out of my apartment [laughter]. and Eugene was there and I literally. went I was like cardigan boys and his. face dropped. [laughter].

You could see Eugene was LIKE. THIS. He he just I get so h I'll start. singing to my friends sometimes like if. I see them and we walk out wearing the. same thing and I'll be like the best. friend the [laughter] best friends. forever and they're just like. >> I hate this with a passion idea how this. has messed up the algorithm because. since we started shooting the season I. was thinking I was monitoring the. outfits. I was like okay t-shirt jacket. jacket shirt t-shirt jacket. >> the algorithm. >> Yeah. Yeah. I knew. So today I kind of.

my algorithm. >> Yes, there's an algorithm here for. outfits and I was like, "Okay, colors. Colors. What are we going now? A bit of. topia brown. Brown. Okay, now we're. going earth colors." And I was like, "Okay, so a kind of blue and a white lot. of vibrancy and color and sweater is. totally off of my algorithm." Then I was. like, there's no way. >> This is not your normal fit. >> No. >> No. Nowhere close. >> Then I was like, I calculated properly. I was like, I know. I know this is not.

going to happen. He's not going to be. wearing anything that has a hint of blue. and brightness on it. And why would he. wear a jersey or a sweater after all of. this time? Because he hasn't done it. We've been. never. >> You know why you ended up here, Eugene, is because you were trying not to dress. like me out of fear. And I got here. because I was trying to dress out of. love. >> You weren't walking towards your fit. You were walking away from his fit. [laughter]. And that's how we ended up here, my.

friend. >> You did the playback in real time. I. hate you. [laughter]. >> You just invited me back. But I'm going. to tell you the I'm going to tell you. I'm going to confess something. I did when we sit down. When we sat. down, I did try to see if you had a. beaded bracelet on cuz I thought maybe. y'all plan something. >> Oh, no. >> Cuz he does. And I thought maybe that. was cute. >> that you're like, >> "Oh, I wish I had. >> But I wouldn't but I would never do it. on purp." [laughter]. >> But I thought it was cute. I thought it. was like cardigan crew magic. >> Yeah, we do indeed. We do indeed.

>> We have a jingle. [laughter]. >> I LOVE IT. ACTUALLY, this has been it's. been amazing. This has been You Eugene's. not wrong. You got to come back. We just. This is part one. >> Oh my god. >> This is just part one. >> Pinky promise. This is part one. >> Defos. >> Let's go. >> Part one. >> Walk on. Walk on with hope in your heart. and you'll never [singing] walk alone. You'll [singing] never.

walk. alone. [singing]. >> Yeah. [cheering] Go. That's a vuella. >> I need to take a vuella to Anfield. [laughter]. >> just to test my membership. >> Oh, this was so much fun. Thank you, Britney. For real. Shout out to Steve. >> Yeah. [laughter] Nice. Thanks.

>> [ __ ]. Water. >> Thank you so much for watching the. episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on. to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friends still. Let. them suffer for a change. And don't. forget to engage with us in the. comments. Uh if you want to suggest a. guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe [music] there's ideas that you. have, you can chat to us. We will read. through the comments and we'll get into. it. Either way, I appreciate you taking. the time. Thank you for hanging [music].

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