Between The Seasons: Stories From A South African Childhood - What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

- Before the new season begins, we return to. where Trevor's story was first written, South Africa. in the laughter and struggles of childhood lie, the roots of. who he became. These are the tales we gather. Now. our journey begins where Trevor's family always began.

with prayer in the townships. Prayer was more than faith, it was identity, a reminder of. where you belong. - This is the awkward part. How, how you. start a conversation. It's the worst part of every conversation. It's. - The worst part. Why don't we start with a prayer? This, this is actually why our grandmother. started meetings with prayers. Oh yeah. The cut. The awkward. Yeah. Because it's to cut the awkwardness. Because now you're. gonna, you can't just come together. and be like, your son has a drug problem. and your husband is cheating. If you start with a prayer, then it opens it up. - But it was also a township power move.

because everyone here will know whose house this is. Because you can't lead a prayer at, - You can't lead a prayer at somebody else's house. No. When you pray, when you pray in a. South African household, right? Mm. First of all, like, I don't, I don't know if your grandmother did this. My grandmother used to give her a dress. and she used to give like where she's. from and her name and everything. No, my grandmother did that. No, really? My. mom, my grandmother would do that. Yeah. She'd be like, and then she'd be like, location, - Orlando. - What location? Yeah. Who. you are, where you're from, whatever. And I remember I asked her once, I.

was like, why are you doing this? And then she was like, why do I assume where I am? Yeah. She said, hi. She said, Trevor, I I must just assume. that God is always listening to me. She'll go, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not fair. And if you think about it, most South African, like prayer in general, I think is very like, considerate of God. It's very much like we know. that you're doing stuff. and we know that. Like, you know what I mean? - Yeah. But I need to, I think. because of missionaries, we never. as black people thought that God is with us. God was brought to us. - Huh. - So we always have to identify ourselves.

and also separate ourselves from the non-believers. - It's funny now that you say the missionary thing. Yeah. I actually think a lot of that was real. - Hmm. - Is that like, 'cause think I, I always think about this. I go like, imagine being a black. person anywhere on the continent. Mm. Right. These people come with religion. Right. And then they tell you. that the reason things are going bad in your life is. because you don't have religion. This, this god in particular. 'cause there was religion.

Okay? There were different religions all over the continent, all over South America, all over these places. They would force, you know, the, the native people. that they would force them to buy goods from them. that nobody else wanted to buy at predetermined prices. They would say they would do the work of like donkeys. and mules and, and all of that stuff. But the main thing was they also came in with religion. So everywhere in the world, I can see this, this, this vibe. where people have come in with religion saying to you, Hey, all these bad things that are happening to you are. because you don't worship God.

And then it must have been weird. because the natives are like, you, you are the bad thing that's happening to us. They're like, yes, exactly. If you had prayed and you have penicillin, - This wouldn't be happening to you. I thought you didn't need penicillin. 'cause you can pray. Yay. Go put on clothes. It's not cancer time. Yet. - Trevor's mind moved to its own rhythm. Some saw disorder. Yet it was a gift, A gift that once left him shoeless,

or on the side of the road, on his way home. - My record with my mom, the, the story. that she keeps bringing up is, one day I came home from school, I had no backpack and I had no shoes. - Come on. - And then my mom said to me, and my cousin always tells a story as well, because he says, that day I got one. of the all time beating all time. And he says, he remembers like watching me going,

but this could have been avoided. He was also a child. And he was. like, he says, he watched me. And he, he thought to himself, but he could have avoided this. And what had happened was I came home. and apparently my mom was like, where's all your stuff? And I said to her, I said, the bag got heavy. - Put it down. - So I put it down. I literally left it on the side of the road. I put it down very logical to me. Logical. - Yeah. - And then she said, and. what happened to the shoes? And I said, the shoes were new. and I didn't want to finish them. So I left them somewhere close to school so.

that I don't have to wear them out on the way home. Because, you know, like your shoes would get worn out. on the, on the sides. Right. Like, we couldn't afford new shoes. the same way other kids could. So I noticed kids always had like a flat heel on their shoe. - Look at how observant you are though. - Yeah, exactly. And then my shoes had the slant. - Yeah. - That looked terrible. So I was like, okay, if I can preserve my shoes, then I won't get laughed at as much. So I'll leave the shoes near school. and then walk home barefoot. And we went back and every everything was where it was. Oh. Which means my plan worked Technically.

- Technically, - Yeah. But she, she couldn't understand. And my brain, I remember thinking this made sense. And to me, to me it makes complete sense. Yes. - As children, Trevor. and his friends turned the streets into playgrounds. claiming space where none was given. He remembers how community can be built from nothing. but bricks and courage. - I think the truth is that we think,

we don't have the third spaces, but we, it's, it's just. because we've made every space a private space. Like I was just thinking this, walking. around like parts of Brooklyn the other day. I've noticed a dip in how many block parties there are. - Hmm. - Yeah. Just that was a simple event. where you close the street. - Yeah. - You agreed. Neighbor at the end. Neighbor at the end. We all agree on Saturdays we are going. to close our block and everyone's gonna just open their door. and like walk out. and the kids can kick a ball and can hit a ball.

That is so great for everyone. I've seen a few parts of New York where they do it now. Like this is like in Manhattan by the way. Like Chelsea somewhere there. - Okay. - I remember driving one day and I was irritated. because I was in the car trying to get. to an airport and the road was closed. But I loved the fact that like, I saw like someone hitting a ball, a baseball, and then people running the whole street was just closed. And I was like, oh, we've been tricked into thinking the. thing that's right outside our door is not a third space. - No, but that's not a third space. - Why is - Not it's a home. Third spaces are like actual, I'm talking about parks,

- Libraries. - No, they have decimated. - Them. I'm, I'm with you. And I'm telling you. that when I grew up, they didn't exist. - Okay. - Black kids couldn't go to a library. - Oh yeah. You up - There was no park. There was no, during apartheid, none of this exists. But I have the full. childhood that you're talking about. Okay. - Right. - Because the third space was was the street. The street. That's right. I get what you mean. If your grandmother told you travel around the world, sometimes you don't see girls, but you always see boys playing in the street. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The third space is the street. Yeah, that's right. So you go, you tell. - The kids, okay, go. We need to get rid rid of these SUVs.

I would let my son play in the street if. - Americans didn't have this huge off cars. Exactly. You and you see, I. - Like if he runs in front of the. - Car. Yes. But that's what I mean by close the streets. Yeah. - Yeah. - So I go, I would love to live in a society. where we go, like we used to do this on, I, I wish I could like take you to the picture in my brain. We as the kids ran the streets as if we were adults. So we would close the street with bricks. You take responsibility. Yeah. We would take bricks. and we would put them at the beginning. of each road and close each. - Road. Yeah.

- And then when a car would need to turn into the street. 'cause this is like a road, you know, it's not a public, I'm not talking about like main roads. So if you're listening to this Yeah. No. permission about the highway. Just an informal thing you did. Yes. I'm not talking about a highway, I'm not talking. about a main road. I'm talking about like In your neighborhood. Yeah. Your neighborhood. It was a. township, but it was still a neighborhood. But put bricks there. A car would need to turn, there would be kids stationed at every corner. and you'd shout, you know, car. Okay. And then you'd run there together. You'd move the bricks, move the bricks, let it. through everyone clear the road. Yeah. Yeah. The car would drive either through. where it needs to go to.

or it would like stop at the house that is stopping at. And then we'd put the bricks back on the road. and then we'd continue playing. And because I agree with you, I'm not saying like go play in the street, but I'm saying sometimes we look at problems in life. and they, they seem insurmountable. because we are looking at them the wrong way. Okay, no phones and no this and no, and where now are we gonna build third space? How much is a third space? Where do you get it? How do we build a park? Do we get permits? Do guys, everyone, if you are lucky enough to have a house, if you're lucky enough to be renting a space, if you, you literally have the third space right outside your door.

- Yeah, that's - Right. You just have to claim it back. Yeah, that's right. You literally just have. to claim it back collectively. Yeah. In. - His home, drugs and drink were shadows never touched. But one day Trevor's mother offered him a cigarette. and a sip teaching him. that even temptation could be faced with honesty. - I think about growing up and my perception of drugs. So I didn't touch weed.

My whole I Okay, so I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll even take it before even like drugs. Drugs. My mom doesn't drink. My mom doesn't smoke, my dad. doesn't drink, my dad doesn't smoke. - Right. - So I grew up in a. home where that wasn't a thing. My grandmother, et cetera. Yeah. And my mom said. to me when I was 13, 12, 13, maybe even younger, she came to my room. and she had cigarettes And she had beer.

And she said to me, do you want, and, and I was like, oh, this is a trap. Obviously this is a trap. And I was, I was almost disappointed. And I was like, come on lady. I'm gonna fall for a trap like that. You're gonna come into my room and offer me cigarettes. And, and she was like, do you want, do you want to try them? And I was like, no, because these are bad things. and we should never, and then she said to me, listen honey, you're gonna, you're gonna encounter alcohol, you're gonna encounter cigarettes and things. So if you're gonna use it, I would rather know. that you use it and then you use it at home. - Yeah. - And then I don't worry.

that now you are out in the world using it, you know, hiding it from me. And then getting into situations. where you can't share that you're, you are using. - It arm reduction. - Exactly. It's amazing. Which is wild. I I, my mom is, my mom is like super religious. and super strict and super, very progressive. Yeah. And so then she didn't even know how. to like light a cigarette. So we have to go, we have to go to an uncle of mine. And then he was like, tra what's up? And she said he wants to try cigarettes. And the guy was like, okay, you want to smoke? And he gave, gave us the cigarettes and I puffed with him.

and I was like, this is trash. This is, so I was like, how is the taste in your mouth? You know what I mean? Yeah. It, it, it tastes like, someone's like eating everything disgusting. and then farting it into your, your your oral cavity. And then the alcohol, beer just tastes like, like old water. that has, you know, dribble down a, a sewer. - Into I'm a bad bri. I don't like, I don't like it. - Either. So I, I didn't like any of that. And then drugs was almost in the same. category for me. In fact. - 'cause of that in initial experience. - Yeah. - Okay.

- Yeah. In fact, drugs, the way I grew up was, you are a loser. You are gonna end your life. That's how I knew drugs. - So that hasn't changed. Now. that was just when you caught up. That's, - That's how I knew drugs, that's all I was told. These are the things that'll happen when you take drugs. So I didn't, I didn't touch weed. I smoked weed for the first time when I was 21. - Okay. - That's how like anti-drug. I used to judge people and I would look at them. and I would say to them, it is a pity. that you've chosen to do this with your life. I used to say that to my cousin. - In South Africa.

Thinness was not beauty. Not at all. It was struggle to gain weight was to be blessed. Trevor recalls how the meaning of a body can change. depending on where the story is told. - Now I think that one of the things. that our whole fascination with Ozempic is based on is, and it's interesting, you know, Christiana, I wonder if you have thoughts with little kids, right? Part of beauty is thinness as, as it's taught.

to you from a really early age. Like fatness, queerness, darkness, all. of these things are like coded as signs of deviance. I like you, you learn. as a really young child in Disney movies in anything. like beauty is really coded as morality. Right? Right. And there's this protestant work ethic thing. Right. It's something that you should achieve through hard. and punitive work and discipline. Right? - Yeah. - And when people use ozempic, it's like, hmm, you cheated, you skipped the hard work part, you know? Mm. Yeah. And so you, you got the thing we demanded of you,

but now we find this a vaguely immoral thinness. - Like you worked hard to achieve the right thing. Okay. I I, I hear exactly, I hear what you're saying. It's funny because I, I don't know how it was. for you growing up, but, so I have, I've had an interesting journey with weight. and how I perceive it and fatness et cetera. Because I grew up in South Africa genuinely growing up. This is such a weird thing to try. and explain to people in South Africa, you did not get made. as much fun of if you were fat. Like, so like a fat person, you'd just be like, I mean,

I don't even remember if we had that many names, but I remember all the ones for skinny people. who were six Zaza. It was, that was my favorite one. Sticks Zaza skinny man. It was like, there were all these names. where it was just like, you you, you are a twig. You're thin. You, and it was a sign there of, of a lack of having, - Yeah. - If you got married and you didn't gain weight, people would say that your marriage is not going well. Literally, they'd be like, is is your. wife not treating you well?

I man, no man, look at you. If I would come home from the states, and like many times I would, I'd come back from America and I gain weight. And so whenever I go home, people would be like, ah, you're looking good man. You're looking good. America's treating you well. You're looking Trevor. No. And you're looking good. Look at your cheeks, you're looking good. And then, and, and, and so where I grew up, fatness was considered like sort of a choice. And then being skinny was like, whoa, your life is not going well and you're not. making the right choices. - For sure.

- So it's interesting how it, it flips, you know? And I'm sure it's time as well. - As a child, Trevor learned. that even authority could be questioned. around the dinner table disagreement. But new ways of seeing, he explores. how questioning can spark creativity.

- There's some classic research looking at, at families, looking at what does it take to raise a creative child? And it turns out that creative children come from families. more often than not, that had regular. arguments and disagreements. - Really? - Yeah. So if you wanna a creative kid, you can at least increase the probability. I'm not sure if it's causal, but by, by arguing with your spouse a little bit more. - What, what do you think that is?

I have an idea, but I'd love to know what you think that. - Is. Well, I wanna hear your hunch. before I, I tell you what I think. 'cause I've, I've, - Okay, so I'm - Thinking about this for a long time. So, - Okay. So here's what I think it is. I think the reason children who grew up in houses. that are a little more argumentative might be a little more. creative is. because they're existing in an environment. where there isn't one way to think. And so what happens is they're both stumbling on what I like. to call third thoughts, right? I had this, like, this idea when I was working on. the daily show with my team. And I'd say, I think everyone has a thought, right?

And then like, you can have a second thought even. by yourself, but I think there's this elusive third thought. that can only come from two different thoughts clashing. together and forming a third thought. that isn't from one specific place. Yes. And so I think if you are watching people. who don't agree as a child, people who you generally love. or you care for, et cetera, you are listening to a person. and you are agreeing with them maybe, or just seeing their point of view.

You're looking at another person agreeing with them. and seeing their point of view. And then maybe you are holding both including a third, which might be yours, which is another opinion of it. And that might force your brain to think. of more things than just the things that exist, which I think is what creativity fundamentally is. - I love this. Okay, so, so your theory is, cognitive complexity comes from seeing people argue. - Okay. - That you don't. - Default to, I need to remember all the, you, you make like some of my ideas sound way smarter. and fancier than they are, which I like. cognitive complexity. Write that down. Alright. Alright.

- I just give you terms for things you already know. - Okay. Okay. Okay, cool. - I also think you learn to be a non-conformist. through that same process. - Oh, interesting. - That instead of just defaulting. or deferring to whatever an authority figure tells you, you realize, well there are two different authorities in the. room and they don't agree. And you, I I think that can both lead. to cognitive complexity, but it can also lead. to more courage when it comes to challenging the status quo. 'cause there's not a right answer coming from above. - There is not one coming from above. - Yep. - You know what's funny?

You say this, my mom is very religious, extremely, extremely religious. But I also think she is one. of the most progressive thinkers I've ever. come across in my lifetime. And one thing I always noticed as a child was. how sometimes she would disagree with the sermon. that the pastor gave when we'd leave church. And I'd be like, huh. And I'm just a kid. I'm just sitting in the passenger seat listening. and she goes, I didn't agree with that. I didn't, I didn't, I I, I hear. where the pastor was coming from,

but I think he was that, that story of Joseph is not about, and then she'd go into her thing and, and then I'd be like, but he's the pastora. And she's like, yeah, he's a guy who reads the Bible. - He's not God. - Yeah, but he's not God. He is like, we also have the Bible. And it was an interesting way for me. to view even religion is going like, huh, don't assume. that the person who stands on the pulpits has. like monopoly on knowledge. You too have the book that you can read. And so now that makes me wonder.

Now I'm like, huh, was that part of me? You know? Okay. I like this. - I I like it too. I mean you can see. both of those effects playing. - Out. Yeah, yeah, definitely. - You're not just gonna assume. that the pastor's answer is gospel. - Right. - And then you're also not gonna be afraid. to question what somebody in power says. - Travel was part of the first generation. to sit in classrooms of class color lines. The fragile experiment, very fragile if I'm to be honest. with you, shaped by apartheid shadow.

He recalls what it meant to grow up in. that moment of change. - You know, I I I was talking to a, a friend. of mine the other day, Dale, and we were talking about how. at our school they had a program where, because we were the first generation. that was like literally I, you. and I were the first generation. How old are you, Dan? - 31. - 31. Yeah. So we were the first generation of kids that went to school. with kids of a different race. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Literally. I sometimes think about. how crazy that was when I go,

like literally the first year in my school. that there were black kids, Indian kids, colored kids. with white kids. That was the first time that it ever happened. - You guys were round one, you were the first child. We were literally not on experiments. - Yo our teachers so wrong. Our teachers had never seen a black child in front. of them in a classroom before. - Our parents had to wear their Sunday past. for the first drop off, drop. - Off. - Our parents didn't even know what a drop. off was. I mean, drop. - Off life. No, but the think about, just think about that as a concept.

I remember being shocked that when I went to school, kids were dropped off. by their parents in a vehicle that they owned. Like one child got out of one. - Car. Mm. - Meanwhile when the black kids got there, it looked like a circus trick where like one car. and they'd open a door and. - Then like, so many, - You're 15. Mm. You, and and that's how we just traveled around the back. of every bucky the back of every van was all of us. You know what I mean? But that exposure, like our school had this program where they went,

we want every kid to go. and stay at another kid's house who they're friends with. They weren't even like, they weren't like a stranger. - Yeah. - But they said, Hey, you guys are friends. But it was a deliberate program. Yo. - Yeah. - It was amazing to see. to talking about like exposure therapy. It was amazing to see how the black kids weren't. particularly surprised by what they experienced. because many of them had moms who were working. for white people. So they had seen a glimpse of a white life. - That makes sense of it. Yeah, for sure.

- Lemme tell you something. Every single white kid who went. to go and live with a black family for a weekend, every single one of them went home and said the same thing. They said, mom and dad, do you know how black people live? And not in like a, a righteous way, just as like a child, - Like a way, - Like a 14-year-old, 15-year-old. They went, yo, do you, do you know how they live? Do you know how they come to school every day? Do you know that they have to take three buses to get here. with other people, with rangers?

Do you know that they don't have hot water in. the morning at their house? You you have to make a fire and then heat it up. and then they call stove out and then you have. to do it again for each person. And they have to, you know, they all, they don't have their own bathrooms, you know, that their toilet's outside. I go to school with this kid. I see myself as his direct like competition in that way. - Yeah. - But I'm going, how is he doing math? When he woke up like that. - In the spinning of a simple roundabout, young Trevor found joy in bringing people together.

He uncovers how that childhood game revealed the. purpose guiding his life. Oh yeah. - Okay. Tell me an early specific. happy childhood memory. Something I can relive with you. - An early - Specific. - Specific happy childhood memory. Childhood memory. Yeah. Damn, this is an interesting one. Let me think. 'cause there's many, how, how old gimme an age and I'll tell you I don't care. No, but what, what, when does childhood end forties two.

- Okay. No, no, I'm being serious though. I want when you're, when you're, you know, a child, like under, you know, in, in school like a. - Okay, my - Early childhood memory, - One of my happiest childhood memories is me the only one. who's ever asked me What do you mean by. - Childhood? - Yes. Because because I think. because I think your memories of different. ages are very Yeah, - Definitely. Early specific childhood. - Memories. Yeah. So, okay. When I think of young, young, one. of my favorite memories was playing on the, on the roundabouts at a park near my house.

- Yeah. This is something a a specific. time, not just a thing you did. No, no, no. This is one time a specific one. Okay. Yeah. Go. - On. And we were all seeing how we were all teaming up. I got a bunch of people together to see. how fast we could make this thing spin. But like, it was, it was a monumental effort. Do you know what I mean? Because everyone had to be at the. right place swinging the thing at the right time to get it. Our goal was to make it fly. That was the dream. We thought if we spin it hard enough, it's gonna take off. And this, this was a, but that was one of my, when I think back I go like, wow, what a day. What a.

- Day. And of all the amazing things you had happen in this magical. childhood that you've talked about, what specifically was it about this one thing. that stands out so much that you wanna talk about it now? - It's collaboration. I. chose the people I was doing it with. We didn't pick the random kids. who in you had no coordination. 'cause the things are gonna smack you in the hands. Right. So we got the strongest, fastest, smartest, like, you know, most affable. We put the people together and we were like, this works. So it wasn't like, if you were the small kid, then your job might have been to be more on the inside. If you were the big kid, your job was to push.

But we put people together and it, it matched in many ways. Right. And the most important thing, funny enough, Simon Sinek, the most important thing. was that we were having fun. And I mean this genuinely we were having, - Yeah. - We had a purpose, but man, we were having fun. - So you, so so now what I'm doing is I'm looking. for the connection between those things. Yes. And saying, okay, that's the common factor, right. Which is you, the. where you find great joy is when you can bring the right. people together to do something that matters.

and have a, a ton of fun doing it. - That's, yes. - Okay. And that's sort of your, your purpose in life, which is to bring people together. to do something bigger than themselves. and have a good time doing it. - Right. - And if everything you do in your life, you can Is is that, is that, is that, yeah, - Roundabout. That roundabout mer go. We got to call Mery go-round. - Yeah. The the, and everything in your. life was like that roundabout. You, you, that is what a game on is. Yeah. And so the opportunity for you is. to remind yourself of that. Right. So I, whether you get a Lego merry-go-round.

or a picture of a merry-go-round, or just you that merry-go-round. Oh, this is, I like, this is, I like sentimental things. Right. This is the merry go-round is it's. your, it's your talisman. It's your, it's your, it's the thing. that reminds you of why you get outta bed. - Today. Hmm. - All you wanna do in life is work tirelessly. to create the merry-go-round. Right. And, and the thing is, is. because you're, you have vision. We're gonna make this thing fly. Yeah. Okay. So people go, huh? And you go, you, you, you and you. Yeah. Okay.

And now they're all coming in and you're having a blast. And whether it succeeds or fails, it didn't fly. - It did not fly. It - Did not fly. It did not, it did not fly. So it actually failed if we're really honest with ourselves. Yeah. But it didn't matter because it was the joy. of the together and the fun. Even with the vision that made it worth, you'd never said at any point, and I fricking nailed it. No, - That's not the - Point. Right. The point wasn't the result. No. The point was the people coming. - To the outcome is a bonus. I always say this, - The outcome is a bonus. And so this chapter ends, childhood stories fade,

but the lessons remain carrying us. until we meet again.