Arthur C. Brooks: Why Humans Are So Bad at Being Happy

[music]. I've often thought one of the worst. things that happened to society was a. series of movies, whether it was kids. movies or adult movies, romcoms, >> but that were happily ever after. Like. they they ended at the moment where the. people met. And I I always wondered what. that did to people's brains growing up. in a world where they went like oh if. you meet the person you love that's the. end and then it's like this is it like.

what is that to us as well? >> I never finished Pac-Man was they meet. and then miss but I never I've never. seen the end of Pac-Man. >> Yeah. >> I saw Junior Pac-Man so I know what they. did but I don't know Junior Pacman. >> Yeah. Junior Pac-Man. There was Junior. Pac-Man. >> Junior Pac-Man. >> Yeah. Junior Pac-Man. Baby baby Pman. >> Like a tiny little Pac-Man had a little. bow and then but like a tiny little. Pac-Man. >> There was a girl Pac-Man. >> Yeah, there was a boy and a girl Miss P. >> No, there was Miss Pac-Man, but then. there was also Junior Pac-Man. >> Junior Pac-Man. Good. >> Yeah. No, no, they the whole family.

>> Yeah, Pac-Man had. >> I like these family values in video. games like this. >> Yeah. No, Pac-Man did it, bro. I was. like, "Okay.". >> Yeah. Mario and Luigi did it well. >> No, they were brothers, bro. I think you. mixing up the story. >> Yeah, they were family members. >> Oh, yeah. They were. They were. >> My kids My kids are, you know, they'd be. they'd be like, "What are these guys? Pac-Man. What are they talking about?". >> Okay, Elder Ring. Fine. and we'll bring. in elder Call of Duty. We'll go. We got. every game covered here. You You tell us. the generation. >> We're here and we've got you. We've. [laughter] got you. >> We got you. It doesn't matter what it. is. [music].

>> This is What Now [music] with Trevor. Noah? [music]. Yeah. No, no. I mean, so you're on. you're on tour all the time? >> Not on tour, but just like life takes. me. You know, I've had the gift and the. curse of planting, you know, many trees. in many different places. >> So often times they call me to go and.

tend to them. >> Right. >> This is not a euphemism for families. Eugene, please. >> Please. >> How many children do you have? >> No, Eugene was about to. >> Please, Eugene, I have zero. None of these things. Oh yes. Do. >> you speak Zulu? I. >> It turns out I don't. [laughter]. Turns out I don't. >> because the way you you turn like Yeah. >> It's like you know it's I got to my my.

grandparents. >> Yeah. My my great-grandparents actually. they they they were Danish and they had. this they believed the Holy Spirit spoke. to them that they should go become. missionaries Lutheran missionaries to. the Zulus. >> South Africa in no ways. >> Yeah. And they didn't speak a word of. the Zulu language which is problematic. >> Big problem. But they knew that the Holy. Spirit would teach them the Zulu. language. >> And he didn't. >> And he didn't. And so they.

>> it was like for Woo. So they left after 10 months and they. came they didn't go back to Denmark. They came to the United States and. started a farm in in South Dakota. >> Do you understand how this one moment in. if. >> your grandparents. >> just learned Zulu, you could have been. South African. >> This would have been a totally different. conversation. >> Completely different conversation and. you and I would have had you know these. sort of parallel. >> This is what I mean look at this. connection. The other day I was at.

Carnegie Hall and I was thinking you. fell off the stage. >> I did. >> At Carnegie Hall. >> You heard about that? Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I did. >> What happened? >> That was my Carnegie Hall debut. It was. beautiful. >> I was 22. >> What happened? >> I was um doing my Carnegie Hall debut in. chamber music. I was like a professional. French horn player. >> You. >> all through my 20s. I left I left. college at 19. I dropped out. >> Just to confirm, which one is the French. horn? >> The round one. >> Yeah. The one you put under you, then. you.

>> It's a round one and it has the bell in. the back that you put your hand in. >> Yeah. >> Huh. >> And so the bell is going backwards. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. Got. it. >> And um I wanted to be the world's. greatest French horn player since the. time I since I was 8 years old. >> You knew this is what you wanted to do. >> I knew. >> What did you see that made you think. French horn player me? >> Well, I I was a good musician. I started. violin at four and piano at five and. then the French horn at 8. And that's. what I was really good at. And when you. were a little kid, I mean, it's not like. I loved music.

>> I loved having people tell me that I was. >> doing well. >> Worthwhile. >> Yeah. >> And I got a lot of attention and. affection, which is what all people who. are addicted to success later in life. have. And all anybody who's a workaholic. later in life ordinarily their their. their childhood is is characterized by. getting attention from adults because of. what they do. >> and feeling like love is earned. Characteristic is people I work with all. the time. I say, "Let me tell you. something about your childhood." And. they say, "How did you know?" Because. every stver has a different version of.

that same story. [snorts] And uh and so. that's what I loved. I loved the. attention that I actually got for being. better than everybody else at one. particular weird thing. And so I went pro at 19 playing chamber. music and and and trying to become a. soloist. And at 22 I got my big break, which was my Carnegie Hall debut. >> No way. >> Yeah. Yeah. And uh [clears throat] at. one point in the concert, the most. stressful point of the concert, I had to. walk to the front of the stage and talk.

to the audience to tell them about the. next piece. And that's what stressed me. out the most. >> Were you holding the French? >> Of course. Of course. But you know, playing the French horn didn't stress me. out. Talking to people in public. stressed me out because I'd never done. it. So, and I was I was rehearsing it in. my mind and rehearsing going through it. and going through and it came time and I. was really nervous and I walked to the. front of the stage and I wasn't looking. at my feet and I fell off this front of. the stage. >> How I've always wondered about horn in. hand. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. And that's what I've always wanted.

to ask somebody about falling off of a. stage. >> The worst. >> Yeah. Because it it you watch videos of. people who do it all the time. Whether. it's a catwalk or whether it's a. performance or they just disappear, you. know, they do that thing. 1 minute. there, one minute it's like gone. How. how painful is it? >> It's very Well, it's about 6 ft. I. landed on my elbow. >> So, so it was very painful and I I did a. lot of damage to my instrument as well. And and of course, I did what anybody. would do, any any 22-year-old man would. do. I jumped up and said, "I'm okay,

folks.". >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> My instrument is mangled. I'm clearly in. pain. [laughter]. >> And there's a gasp from the audience. Oh. man, >> it's so funny that humans do that. Why. are we more concerned with like. assuaging the like like everyone out. there's having their own like fear. Everyone out there's going are you okay? And we're like no no no I am okay. >> Do not worry about the arm that's. dangling in the wrong direction. >> Clearly something broken.

>> You do not worry. >> I also think that a group are you okay. is not about you. It's about them. >> But that's what I'm saying. Why do we. care about you've just fallen off a. stage? >> It's just about them. How is this. concept going to continue? Is he still. going to be able to do this thing for us. that where does that come from? What do. we need to get involved? What do you. think that is? So, that's a natural. human tendency to show strength. That's. a natural human tendency to show. resiliency. And it's especially true for. men. >> They don't want to look as if they're. vulnerable in any way. They don't want. to look like they're weak in any way.

It's very very embarrassing to to to. show that something has hurt you. >> Yeah. Okay. >> For young men, especially in front of a. whole bunch of people that I'm trying to. impress. I'd been spending the last hour. and a half trying to impress them as. deeply as I possibly could. This is my. New York debut. >> Carnegie Hall. >> Carnegie Hall, baby. I mean, how do you. get to Carnegie Hall? >> Well, try not to fall off the stage, among other things. >> And and and so during that, what you. don't want is that to car your weakness. to characterize your New York debut. That's not what you want. >> And so the result is you're trying to.

wind back time. You know, you're trying. to wind back the time. It's saying, "I'm. okay, folks. Let's just go back to the. concert." is like we're never going. back. >> We've just lost a [clears throat] French. horn. >> So that has happened to you. Some. version of that, right? >> Never. >> There's never been anything in your life. that has been. >> Oh, you mean like on a stage? >> Your version of holding off the stage? >> No, I mean we've all had that somewhere. >> But tell me the story. >> We We want to know. >> particularly yours. You think of one. >> You're next, Eugene. [laughter].

>> I thought you were Zulu brothers. What's. going on here? >> [laughter]. >> OH WOW. I'm I'm hoping so this is going. to bring us closer to happiness, right? Okay. So I promise. So we've got to find. the this unhappy memory and then you're. going to bring us closer to happiness. >> cuz we're going to laugh like crazy. about it now. >> Let me think. Where was one? Okay, I'll. tell you where was where one was. Um the. earliest I can sort of remember in my. life was I was in a school play. And. >> your school had plays? >> Yeah. Your school didn't have plays?

>> Hey. >> No. [laughter]. >> So I was in a school play. M. >> and I was. 6 or 7 years old. >> and in the play I was I was uh. portraying a tortoise right and so I had. a big shell on my back and a whole thing. and there was one part of the play where. we all had this like march dance thing. where it was like da da da da da da da. da da and we walk off the stage and then. we walk back onto the stage and we walk. off the stage on on the stage and. [snorts] then I was walking back onto.

the stage and as I got up onto one of. the steps. One of my tortoise feet. caught the step cuz I hadn't walked much. on stairs with tortoise feet. Human feet. pretty much. You. >> not attend much rehearsals. >> I I mean even then I. >> rehearsals don't happen with costumes. on. >> Yeah, they don't. You just you just do. it with like your you know. >> Mhm. >> And I I tripped but it was one of those. like you know where you save yourself. from tripping and so it makes the trip. worse. >> So you just flying off. >> cuz often if you just trip and fall down. and get up it's it's not bad but. sometimes you go I'm not tripping. I'm. not tripping and then it draws attention.

to the trip. So it was like G and then. while this was happening everyone's. turning [clears throat]. >> and the whole school when I tell you the. whole school cuz in the hall. >> laughed at the same [laughter] time and. you know the laugh that kids have young. kids it's not just like a haha. [laughter] like. >> horrible haunting. >> it's that one of LIKE [screaming]. >> they love that laugh [laughter]. >> what the. >> whole school maybe it was like teacher.

>> 300 kids you'd man. And that happened. and I remember the blood left my head. and left my I just I just wanted to. disappear. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> And then. as I'm walking on the stage cuz we have. to do the parade multiple times as we. walking down the other side. We come. back up and then I did it again. But. this time I did it on purpose. >> And then they laughed. Well played. >> I did it as a bid. Charlie Chaplain.

Then they [clears throat] laughed again. >> Uhhuh. >> And then after the show, one of the. teachers came and was like, "That was. comedic genius." Oh, well done. That was. brilliant. >> Star is born. >> Yeah. >> It was literally and and that but I. remember the the shift in that moment. from that that there's few moments in my. life that I think I've had more of an. impact on me than that specific moment. >> The presence of mind that that takes at. 6 years old to figure out that this is a. comedic bit. >> I don't think I thought it was a comedic. I don't think I thought it was a comedic. bit. I think I thought to myself, if I.

can be the person who is creating this, then you can't hold it against me. Does. that make sense? >> It makes sense. It actually explains a. lot. >> Yeah. I was going like, oh, oh, okay. No, no, I'm I'm the one who did it. I'm. the one. >> Oh, yeah. I I did it. I did it. I did. it. >> Yeah. So, the second time it's. interesting. So, you It was surprising. to them, but funny at the same time. The. second time, actually. So, there's this. really interesting thing about comedy. >> There's a little part of the lyic system. of your brain. It's called the. parahhipocample gyrus. And what it does. is that that's what mediates surprise.

That's the reason that all humor is. based on surprise. It's all based on. surprise. >> And and so what'll happen I mean any. stupid I could tell you a stupid dad. joke and it's all based on that. So. >> I want to die peacefully in my sleep. like my grandfather not screaming in. terror like his passengers. [laughter]. >> Right. So that's a good idea. It's great. You'll laugh more with my. kids. So So what that does is that. flicks the parahippocample gyus. >> and and if it's too much, you're going. to like why are you making making fun of.

hurricane victims? >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Right. >> And if it's too little, it's a pun and. you're like, >> you see, >> but it but it's because it's it's. basically what is that part of the brain. responsible for predicting something. though. What is happening is it sorts. out cognitive dissonance. Got it. It. sorts it out that you know the. parhippocam gyus is like you're going in. one direction and then you say what. happened oh that and that makes you. laugh. That's what makes you laugh. That's why surprise is funny is. inherently and then not the kind of. surprise like the lawyer's on the phone.

Not that kind of surprise. >> Yeah. [laughter]. But it's and so that's how all humor. works, right? And so that's what you did. at six. You have a nose for it. You. basically said, "I'm going to come. around the other time and I'm going to. surprise him because the last thing that. they're expecting is that Trevor. >> trips a second time.". >> Yes. >> And that's why they cracked up. But. honestly, the first time they mocked. you, the second time they actually. laughed. >> Yeah. No, no. The second time they were. I had taken control of the thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. But you did it to to flick. their little pair of hippocample gyuses.

When you control the pair of hippocample. gyus, you control the world. >> Actually, maybe that's a little bit too. gyrus part. Does it have anything to do. with a gyroscope? Nothing. Okay. >> What's yours, Eugene? >> Yeah, I know. We We're getting to the. the good stuff here. We'll get. >> What's your What's your moment? >> Why you looking at me like you expect me. to tell me to tell you guys something. embarrassing about my. >> No, it's not. What's your moment? >> So, this was my first year of school. >> So, my parents had bought me a school. uniform, right? So, everyone is excited. about me going to school for Personally,

I've been looking at these gray flannel. plants for the longest time. I'm going. to wear these pants, my uniform, my. white shirt. I'm going to do this thing. So, it came with a belt. Ironically, that's what I forgot this time on my. trip. And I've gone to shop so many. times. Almost bought the shy, but not a. belt. In any case, so I go to school for. the first week on Friday, and remember. orientation for us. So, they're teaching. us the songs that we must sing at. assembly. We had assembly, but it was. outside. No hall. >> You were what, like six years old? >> Six years. Yeah. First year of school. >> So, all of this is happening. I lose my.

belt playing football after school. So, on Friday, I have to go to school. without a belt. My mom notices I don't. have a belt on. What does she do? She. had bought a pair of suspenders for. Christmas clothes. [laughter]. >> This is not the fashion statement you're. trying to make. [laughter] Is this what. I gather? [gasps]. >> Maybe. Maybe. >> he's reliving this horrible moment. Moment of trauma because. >> No, wait. Maybe the professor will. explain to you. >> You are a tripping turtle here AND.

[laughter] I DIDN'T GO. >> NO, let me Wait, wait, wait. Let me let. me let me explain to you. Wait, let me. explain. What happened to my brain? >> What happened there? >> Gyro. >> My hippocimus gyro. >> Paripple gyro. [laughter]. >> That one. >> Found a new one. >> Yeah. >> Hippocle gyro. You [laughter] said. hipple gyro. It got flicked in my brain. >> Uhhuh. >> Because of all the things I thought you. would say, I did not think the word suspenders was. going to come into this story at all. You said then my mom found out and then.

I thought my mom was going to get angry. My mom was going to shout. My mom was. the many things. >> Oh, she was. No, no, no. But then you. said my mom had bought a pair of. suspenders. >> Yes. For my Christmas clothes that I. avoided. >> to wear. Now carry on. Christmas. >> I'm telling you I wasn't laughing at. you. I was laughing at the suspenders. that were just in the mix. >> He was laughing with you. >> or about you but not at you. [laughter]. >> Sorry. I apologize. Carry on. So your. mom had bought Christmas suspenders. >> that I avoided. Yeah. >> Throughout the whole entire December. >> Yeah. >> And I managed to go through Christmas. without wearing them. And then she said,

"You're going to put on these suspenders. cuz this these pants are going to fall. because they're not the exact size. You. have to wear them. You have to grow into. them a little bit. >> Grow into your clothes." Yeah. >> This is two years worth of pants here. They've hemmed them up at the bottom. They're loose fitting. So I wear the. suspenders and mind you, I have to walk. to school. There's no drop offs here. So. all the way I'm wearing a jersey in the. heat going to school. >> Hiding the suspenders. >> Hiding the suspenders. I get to school. We're in assembly. I'm the shortest kid. So they put me right at the front. So.

we're singing this song, right? >> Uhhuh. >> Our father who art in heaven, >> but we had a version, an English version. and a Isizulu version. So I went to a. Catholic crutch. >> So I knew the song very well. >> So the teacher has been teaching us at. assembly to sing this song for the. longest time. >> Eugene. >> noticed that I was actually hitting all. the notes and switching between the two. languages. >> And then he said to me, "You guys are. idiots. There's this kid here. He four. days in the school, fifth day today, and. he's hitting all the right notes. This.

is our school song. Our father art in. heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy king. >> Yes. And this kid's nailing it. >> This kid is nailing it, guys. He's the. shortest here. He's the youngest here. He's the newest here. There's people. who've been here for 4 years. This song. is not working for you, but this kid is. nailing it. So, what I'm going to do is. I'm going to ask this kid. >> I knew it. >> And you went up in front of the school. I'm going to ask this kid [laughter] to. come in front. >> Yo, >> start the hymn from the beginning and. sing this thing. Then I'm like, eh.

>> So this traumatic look that I have. whenever something when you spring. something on me and my hippogy cambers. is affected. There's the same this look. I've been having since I was six. >> So he takes his time instructing the. biggest kid in the school to go fetch a. desk in one of the classes to put as a. stage for me. Oh, >> then as this stage my Kaneigi Hall is. being erected in front of me or behind. me, he says to me, "This jersey in this. heat, this is South Africa in January.

It's hot." So he says, "You can't be. wearing a jersey. Take off." I'm like, "Don't trust me, I'm fine." He goes, "You are not going to do that." And mind. you, this is with a belt. The tailor. made sure Taylor being my mom. >> that the hemming up of these pants. fitted perfectly to my ankles. Now. suspenders on the other hand, >> they pull. >> They were suspending my ankles. That's. what they were doing. >> And then he says to me, "The jersey's. coming off." So now I'm 6 years old, small kid. I'm trying to argue with this. teacher as he grabs the shoulders and. pulls off this jersey while he's.

plucking me up and putting me on stage. >> Oh man. >> See that laugh? >> Yeah. >> Oh man. All of that the. happened and I knew I had one option. here cuz the other option was if I jump. off stage I'll make a bigger idiot of. myself cuz this rickety desk might. actually be the end of me. >> Yeah. >> Then I stood there and I continued. singing the song our father who had went. on and on and until they all kept quiet. and I switched between the two songs.

Zulu version the English version and it. ended. Then from then onwards everyone. called me our father for that year. Then. I was like it's ironic because. >> guess they didn't call you suspenders. [laughter]. >> So that was that was that was my story. And then I went home and I told my mom. >> that story and you know I was so. embarrassed because it felt like a long. day obviously of what happened the. nicknames that happened afterwards on my. way home playing soccer afterwards there. >> and my mom said you know.

where where okay in Zulu she said. means where were you broken then I said. no they hurt my feelings she says yeah. yeah I hear that but is there any part. of you that they took away from you. physically then I said nothing she says. Life is going to be like that. People. are going to try. You mustn't let them. Someone can surprise you about something. that you are. They will say many things. about you, but don't believe them. because it won't break any bit of you. >> And the other thing was my name. People. didn't know how to pronounce my name or. write my name. And she taught me how to.

teach people how to pronounce my name. He said, "You must say. because if they want you to pronounce it. like that, it means they're slow and. you're not.". >> So, I learned all of those little. things. And when it came to stage and. performing after a bad show, you're. like, "This is nothing compared to. standing in a on top of a desk in an. assembly with suspenders on.". >> Beautiful. I'm basically picturing like. like a African forest gump now. >> Yep. 100%. >> Literally like the suspenders and your. mom being like slow. [laughter]. >> You can't sit here. Our father, you.

can't sit here. I haven't accessed that. memory for the longest time. In fact, never. >> That is so powerful and most powerful. for me. Thank you. Absolutely. You know, you you know what the the happiness. you've brought to me? >> One, you've brought me closer to my. friend. >> But two, and more importantly. >> in your story, I noticed you were. playing football. >> I was good at football. >> This is what do you mean I was playing. football? >> But now I see like you you were playing. football. The football made you lose. your belt and this is another reason. that you now hate football. >> I'm slowly piecing this together, my.

friend. >> But for both of you guys who think about. this, these are the formative. experiences that make us who we are. >> See, here's the deal. And this is a real. problem, especially today. A lot of. young people watch you, big fans. >> Yeah. >> The biggest mistake that a lot of young. people make today is they think that the. pain that they have must be eliminated. And the truth is that these experiences. and the on the day-to-day suffering that. they're going to inevitably face, that's. their teacher and makes them who they. actually are. So to the extent that we.

that we resist the pain in our lives to. try to lower the suffering that we face, the worse off we are, the worse off that. we are. The fact is I asked you about. something that was a really bad day for. you. You turned it into a good day. This. was an unambiguously bad day for you. >> And for me it was the worst day of my. young adult life, >> right? >> And in point of fact, these things made. us who we are in a very a fundamental. way. This was these were turning points. These were inflections. I realized that. day that I didn't actually have to be.

this person. That it didn't matter. It. didn't matter. That that wasn't who I. was. Was the guy falling off the stage. That wasn't who I I s here Here's the. deal. It's funny. I was talking to this. young guy. I was talking to a I do a lot. of talks for young adults and I was. talking to a group of young adults in. Washington DC. Uh they were all working. on the on Capitol Hill and Washington DC. is the world's most dysfunctional dating. market. It's comp it's it's it's a. nightmare. >> In what way? that, you know, everybody's. kind of climbing and they want power and.

everybody's jocking for position. It's. socially dysfunctional. >> and and I'm talking to this group, they're all in their 20somes, uh, on on. the Senate side. And and I was talking. about, you know, you got to treat your. life like a startup. You got to be an. entrepreneur in the business of your own. life. Your life is an enterprise. You're. the founder. And the number one most. entrepreneurial thing that you can do, you know what it is? Fall in love and. put your heart at risk. give your heart. away, right? And I thought it was pretty. clever. Anyway, a couple weeks later,

I'm on a plane and a kid comes up, kid, 26, kid compared to me, comes up. He. says, "Professor Brooks," I said, "Yeah." He said, "I saw you give that. talk on Capitol Hill. I can't get it out. of my head. I'm on my way right now to. tell a woman that I've been lo in love. with secretly for two years that I love. her because of your speech." And I'm. like, it's only a speech. [laughter]. I don't want I don't want to ruin your. life. I don't want to ruin your life. [laughter].

>> And I'm like, >> hippocmpus. >> And I was like, oh boy, her paracapple. [laughter]. gy is about to get flicked pretty hard. anyway. So, and so I said, well, you. know, let me know how it goes. And I get. my email. You don't hear from him, which. is a bad sign. >> I see him several months later at a. party in DC. I was running a company in. those days. He comes up to me and he. says, "Remember me?" And I'm like, "Yeah, [laughter]. >> so much happened.". >> And I says, and I said, "Yeah, on the. plane, right?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "So, what happened with that girl?" And. he said, "She shot me down. She didn't.

just not love me. She introduced me to. the guy that she was in love with. It. was the worst day of my life." And I was. very contrite. I said, "I'm sorry. I'm. not trying to ruin your life." And he. said, "No, no, no. I'm here because I. wanted to tell you that I I meant to get. in touch and thank you.". >> And I said, "What? What are you, a. masochist? Why? Why do you want to thank. me? And he said, "Cuz that was the thing. I was literally most afraid of in my. life. And it happened. And I didn't die. >> I didn't die.". >> Did you break? >> No way. Like my mom did.

>> Exactly. Right. Exactly right. I didn't. look I broke my horn, but I didn't break. my life. This is the thing. It's so. funny because all these things that you. break through, you had to you had to. stand up to your embarrassment, stand up. to your shame. And I my first day. lecturing when I was a brand new. professor, I was nervous and and I had. to give a three-hour lecture in in front. of graduate students. These are this is. hardcore. I was at Syracuse in those. days. I had just come to Syracuse early. on very early on in my career actually. So, and I'm giving this three-hour. lecture and I'm noticing they're very. they're kind of laughing at my jokes and.

they're really all smiley and they were. very very very pleasant and I thought, why is it that they're so amused by. everything? But it went really well. I. was kind of patting myself on the back. >> I had been very nervous. And I walk out. of the lecture hall and I'm walking down. the hall and I see one of my colleagues. coming toward me and he starts laughing. I said, "What are you laughing at?" And. he said, "Your flies down.". >> Oh. >> I had just given a three-hour first. lecture and I was trying to impress them. with my fly down and a little piece of. my like shirt coming out of the fly. >> Oh, that's perfect comedy.

>> That's flawless comedy when it does that. little peak thing. >> Yeah. That's. >> Yeah, it's beautiful. But that's the. point. And the whole point was I wasn't. nervous anymore for any lecture after. that ever. >> Yes. Got many HR complaints though. They. were like, I mean, we would like you to. zip the fly up. And he's like, this is. the new me. >> Sorry. This is the new me, Professor. Fly. >> I got to be me. [laughter]. >> I found myself, baby. >> That's my suspenders. [laughter]. >> But but this is this is what. >> Face your Face your pain. Face your. fear. Face your suffering. Here.

>> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's let's do this step by step cuz I. cuz I you know the thing I I want to be. careful of is um you you actually taught. me this in many ways but it's like. sometimes when you speak to somebody who. has mastered something or has a certain. mastery of something they can gloss. through it and move through it in a way. that sounds correct but then sometimes. doesn't connect with how people are. hearing it. So let's let's take these. things step by step because. >> um. >> you study happiness right? >> You know what I mean? And you've studied.

for how long now? Uh I wrote my first. book on happiness about 25 years ago. >> Right. So you you've really been in the. game. >> Yeah. But I've been the seven last seven. years writing, speaking and teaching. full-time, nothing else. >> So So let's start with the the the core. idea because I. >> I think it's important for us to build. from the ground up understanding you and. understanding your work. >> The first thing I I realize we need to. think about is what is happiness? >> Because every everyone says. >> they want to be happy. everywhere. America the pursuit of happiness.

>> which is not the promise of happiness. >> no but the pursuit you know what I mean. the pursuit so I I want to know from you. as somebody who's studied it how do you. define happiness so first what is it not. it's not a feeling the biggest mistake. that we make is misunderstanding. emotions most people think that. happiness is a feeling but happiness is. a feeling kind of like the your. Thanksgiving dinner is the smell of your. turkey it's not the smell of the turkey. is evidence of of Thanksgiving giving. dinner and your the feeling of happiness. is evidence of actual happiness.

Happiness has like your Thanksgiving. dinner has three macronutrients, three. constituent parts that you need to get. really good at understanding and. changing your habits around. Number one. is enjoyment, which is not the same. thing as pleasure. >> If you're pursuing pleasure, you're not. going to find happiness. You're going to. find rehab. >> And it's very different understanding. the difference between pleasure and. enjoyment. Second is satisfaction, which. is the joy that you get from an. accomplishment after struggle. And the. the accomplishment is not more important. than the struggle for satisfaction. And.

the third is meaning. That's what I'm. doing most of my work on for now years. Meaning, the meaning of life. You know, what is the why of your existence? You. need to become an elite athlete in. enjoying your life. Taking satisfaction. in your accomplishments and your. achievements and understanding the why. of your existence. Those are your three. big jobs. >> You want to be a happier person. That's. what it comes to. And then a lot of the. time you'll get the feeling of. happiness. >> Not all the time, >> but that's not what you can rely on. So. happiness is the byproduct of the. actions that you are taking.

>> Yeah. So the feeling of happiness is the. feeling. The happiness itself is the. amount of enjoyment, satisfaction and. meaning that you're experiencing in your. life. >> Yeah. >> That's kind of like the the the the. amount of protein, carbohydrates, and. fat that you eat is the amount of food. and calories that you're getting. >> That's what it comes down to. That's how. to think about it. And each one of those. things is really important. Some people, the good news is nobody's great across. all of these things. I have tests that I. give my students to find out where in. which macronutrient they need work. I. know a lot of people who take tons of.

satisfaction in what they do because. they have a lot of achievements and. they've worked hard and they've. struggled. >> Yeah. >> But they don't know why they're doing. it. They have a low sense of meaning. And I know a lot of really big. executives, you know, hedge fund. managers and private equity people, people make a ton of dough. >> People that everyone like sort of. aspiring. >> Yeah. And they don't enjoy their lives. at all because they don't know how to. enjoy. >> And what are they what are they lacking. in those instances? So somebody step. somebody comes into your world who says, "Professor Brooks, I man, I am I'm. nailing it. I'm satisfied in in this. realm, you know, I'm doing it, but man,

I just I just don't feel good." What do. what do you find they're missing? Or why. is why is it so difficult to experience. that happiness if they're missing. meaning? >> So if they're missing meaning, then. there will be no reason for what they're. doing. So meaning really has three. meaning is the most is the heaviest most. philosophical part of it all, but it's. the most important of these. macronutrients. It's the protein. is. basically the protein of your happiness. is your drive. >> Yeah. So meaning is is really a. combination of being able to answer. three questions. Why do things happen. the way they do in life? That's.

coherence. And some people answer that. with religion and some people answer. that with science. >> I'm both religious and a scientist. Both. Some people here's a funny thing. You know people who follow a lot of. conspiracy theories. That's very common. today. Going down the rabbit hole. Are. you a conspiracy theorist? >> Generally speaking, >> love your Batman voice though. [laughter]. >> The best one I've heard yet. The what? >> We had Manny trying was okay. >> You rate the sword more? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> No mat for me. >> The Batman vice conspiracy theorist. >> You're a conspiracy theorist.

>> It's not bad. It's actually not bad. [laughter]. >> Yeah. That's like I'm I'm actually I did. I'm I'm auditioning to be the next. Batman. I realize it's like it's called. bald Batman. [laughter]. >> You wear No, you wear the the That's why. >> I know. I know. But I know, but they but. Bruce Wayne, he has a beautiful hair. head of hair. >> This is true. >> I know. But not now. It's a new. >> could change. Could change. >> You did. >> But okay. So, yeah. So, you're saying. >> Okay. So, >> conspiracy theorist. >> Conspiracy theorists are looking for. coherence. They're looking for an answer. to the question, why do things happen.

the way that they do? So, when I meet. somebody who's really down the rabbit. hole of weird conspiracy theories, that. is a dead giveaway that what they're. looking for is coherence because they. want meaning, because they want to get. happier. That's where I'm going to. actually work with that person. I'm. going to work with that person on. alternative ways. I'm not going to say. you're an idiot. I'm not going to say. that's not true. I'm not going to say, you know, go read the paper for God's. sake. I'm going to say let's work on. different ways to understand why things. happen the way that they do. I'm going. to re try to reconnect them with the. faith of their youth. I'm going to try.

to get them really interested in. science. You know, different nutritious. ways to actually understand why things. happen the way they do. >> So, it's not erasing their curiosity nor. their need to find coherence, but it's. finding a healthier balance of those. ingredients. >> It's a redirection. Okay? It's a. redirection towards something that will. truly bring you a sense of coherence. >> while not alienating you from, you know, the people that you're thank. So that's. number one. It's just one element. >> But while you're still on that though, let's talk on on that one element. Does. that apply to everything? So can you. meet somebody who, for instance, is so. religious that they're not having a good.

time in life or can you meet somebody. who is so science-based that they're not. having a good time in life or does it. only apply to like conspiracy? >> Well, conspiracy theories, it tends to. be kind of antisocial. And so if. something that your your sense of. coherence is pulling you away from your. love relationships, okay, >> then that's. against another one of the elements of. meaning which is significance. >> Significance is that your life matters. to someone. >> Your life has to matter to someone. No. matter. >> the significant other part, >> it has to be your spouse, your kids,

your parents, your friends, God. >> Wow. >> You need to be significant. And when. you're doing something with your sense. of coherence like conspiracy theories. that's ruining your relationships, then. coherence goes up as significance goes. down and you're defeating the purpose. >> Those are different elements that have. to be in balance. >> You become an expert in that subject but. alone in it. >> And if you. >> My mom said this a lot. >> Nice. >> My mom said. >> I got to meet your mom because already. your mom has made two appearances. >> Yes. My mom used to say if you love. being right you'll be right alone. >> Uhhuh. >> It makes so so much sense now. Yeah,

>> you'll be certainly unmarried. [laughter]. >> It's a good way to stay a bachelor. >> Too deep, [laughter] man. >> I've been married 34 years. [laughter]. >> I'm wrong a lot. >> But I but I guess that's the foundation. of all relationship, right? Is is. >> significance. >> In fact, all society, funny enough, even. if you just keep expanding on it, it. becomes the like how much do you care. about being right, >> being right? I mean, that's the whole. basis of our, you know, culture of. contempt. That's the whole basis of the.

fact that we can't get along. politically, that we have ideological. wars, cancel culture, all of it is this. [snorts] grievance about having to be. right all the time as opposed to, huh, I. wonder I wonder if somebody actually is. saying something interesting to me. >> Inquiry is not about being right. Inquiry is about learning. >> But the system isn't designed to. >> activism is about being right. >> Yes. >> And so when you get the wrong balance of. inquiry and activism, it turns the ship. over. >> Yeah. And and that's why I'm saying the. system is important though because what. you just said about like our childhoods,

>> something forms you, something shapes. you and often times it's how the people. around you responded to an action that. you took, >> right? So now because of your. suspenders, they respond to you a. certain way. Because of the way you. sing, you responded to because of the. way I tripped, they responded to me a. certain way. Because of the way you. fell, people respond to you a certain. way, you respond. When we're living in a world where the. systems themselves are rewarding people. for one versus the other, you don't get. rewarded for compassion online. Let's be. honest, >> you don't.

>> There's it's an entirely different scale. of reward that you get. >> You get rewarded, but you don't get the. same scale of reward, the same intensity. of reward. Yes. >> Which is really, really important. You. get a slow burn of what you're actually. able to you have a different kind of. impact. You have to you have to to to um. become I guess comfortable with the idea. that you're not going to get the same. intensity of reaction. And part of the. reason for that by the way is the lyic. system of the brain has more tissue. dedicated to negative emotion than to. positive emotion.

>> And why is that? >> Because in the evolutionary environment. in the place to scene. >> you needed negative emotions more than. you needed positive emotions. Negative. emotions are an alarm to avoid that for. that. So fear, anger, disgust, and. sadness. Those are the four negative. emotions. And all. >> you're good, man. >> He's a professor. >> That's. >> he's a professor. I love the idea that. Eugene would be in your class. Like, yo, this guy. >> Yo. [laughter]. Hey, my man. I think you're going to ace. this class. >> This guy. This guy in the front. >> By the way, I love your fly. [laughter].

Keep it down. KEEP IT. YOU'RE A horrible friend. [laughter]. >> Now he's yours, Arthur. >> Perfect. I got students who are big fans. of yours like I was there that day. [laughter]. >> I felt threatened. I felt unsafe. >> Actually, let's By the way, let's I'm. going to hold that as we're going back. We're going down. >> No, no, no. This is good. This is like a. nesting doll. This is exactly what it.

is. Like a Matruska Russian figure out. This is exactly Yes. But no, we'll hold. that and we'll let's so keep let's move. >> So the negative the negative emotions so. the negative emotions exist because. those are alarm systems for the things. that can kill you. >> You know you have sadness so that you. will not be rejected by your kin. We're. we're in in the place human homo sapiens. lived in bands of 30 to 50 individuals. >> Okay, >> kin-based hierarchical bands of. individuals and and and the place. starting 250,000 years ago was when we. got the modern brain. Our brains are the.

same. And so all the weird stuff that we. do today is because it's it was suitable. to being in hierarchical kin-based bands. of 30 to 50 individuals. It explains. almost everything. It explains how. genders work together. It explains why. we have envy, why we try to climb in. hierarchies, why we want to be famous, >> all that stuff is is actually explained. by this the place to scene brain is what. it comes down to. But also that place to. scene brain had a lot more space for the. negative emotions. Positive emotions are. nice to have. Negative emotions keep you.

alive. And so if you hear a little snap. of a twig behind you, >> your first reaction is not, >> I bet that's my friend Trevor who's come. to say hi. You know, like you run and. ask questions later. >> And and you know, you you want to make. sure that you're not going to be. abandoned. You want to make sure you're. not going to get killed. You want to. make sure you don't ingest poison. That's what disgust is for. >> There's this beautiful little place in. the lyic system called the an the the. insular cortex. And that little thing is. your is your disgust mechanism. And.

that's all that kept you from ingesting. poison before there was like vaccines. and antibiotics. >> It was just a signifier that this thing. could kill you. >> Yeah. That's why something that smells. dead, something that smells rotten, that's why it disgusts you. And that's. why your dog, who's very disgusting, by. the way, that's why he licks the floor. because he is actually not going to be. exposed to the same kind of pathogens. because of, you know, the the the the. constituent parts of his saliva that can. neutralize some of the germs that you. can't. That's why he's like, "That's not. disgusting." And yet you think that's. disgusting and you tell your kids not to.

lick the floor. Anyway, I digress. The. whole point is, thank God for negative. emotions. They've kept you alive again. and again and again and again. >> But now you want to be in a place where. your negative emotions are in control. >> Well, you want to manage them so they. don't manage you cuz we're not in the. place to sing. >> And that's why we have this great big. prefrontal cortex. All this tissue. behind the forehead, 30% of your brain. by weight that gives you consciousness, >> right? Your dog doesn't have. consciousness. Your dog doesn't know. it's alive. Your dog doesn't know it's. going to die. Your dog doesn't have.

future ideas or past ideas. Your dog's. just here now. It's why your dog's. happier than you. >> It can't tell time. Yes. >> Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Because your dog, it's why your dog is. happier than your dog's mindful. >> Your dog is like, you're thinking about, well, I got to do this thing. I I hope I. hope my flight's on time tomorrow. And, you know, it's like, I got this thing. It's, oh man, I have have a falling out. with somebody I really care about and. what's going to happen next year and. what if the economy tanks and your. golden retriever is like I'm sitting. here with Trevor. >> You are remembering your dog is enjoying.

>> your dog is here now. Here now you're. not. You're in the future. >> So does that also mean that your dog can. experience a lot more stress and pain. because the now can last forever for it? Well, like let's say your your dog is. experiencing an adverse experience, right? Is that thing lasting forever in. its mind? >> Well, the lyic system for the dog is. pretty the the homo sapiens and canines. have they they they they actually. evolved in parallel. Okay. >> So, they have very very similar. emotions. So, when you think when your.

dog looks at you with love, do you have. a dog? >> No, I had one and and your dog looked at. you with love, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Your dog was feeling love. Your dog. actually gets oxytocin, which is a. neuropeptide in the brain, the bonding. hormone, the sense of love that you get. when you look at your kids and your. friends and your your your beloved. >> Your dog looks at you and you stroke the. dog and give your dog eye contact. It. gets a 56% bump in oxytocin. Just like. you, >> your cat 12%. >> I knew it. I always say this. >> Your your dog loves you. Your cat, >> we shouldn't even say your cat. You.

should say the cat without Hey, let's. say the cat you live with. Please, let's. stop perpetuating this myth. It is not. your cat. It is a cat that lives at your. house, >> eating your eating your food. >> Those things do not that is not your. cat. There are a few cats that are. exceptions. I know some cat owners be. like, "My cat's nice." That's your cat. It's an outlier. Most cats, they're not. your. >> cats are takers, >> my man. >> Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, [laughter]. we digress again. So, that's so bad. You. know, negative emotion is really, really. interesting and useful is the whole. point. >> about that. Where were we at? But we're.

talking about meaning. >> So now meaning was the thing which we. did and significance but there's one. more the most important one. Purpose. >> Purpose. So everybody thinks meaning and. purpose are the same. They're not. They're not the same. Purpose is a. subcomponent of meaning. That's your. goals and direction and sense of what. you're doing with your life. It's the. answer to the question why am I doing. what I'm doing? >> Okay. >> And if you don't know the answer to the. question, why am I doing what I'm doing? You're not going to have meaning and. you're not going to be happy. That's why. if you have kids, the one of the most. important ways to actually motivate them.

to do things with more joy is to give. them a sense of purpose, >> which is goals and direction for a. better future. >> Give me an example of that at like. different age levels for a parent, for. instance. So, let's say let's say it's a. 5-year-old, a 15year-old, and a. 25-year-old. >> So, a 5-year-old is the way that you. motivate a 5-year-old is that you say, "If you're a good little boy, Santa. Claus is going to bring you some nice. presents." Okay, >> you're motivating them to behave in a. particular way happily because that's. their kind of little kid purpose is.

getting to getting to Christmas morning. and getting a bunch of stuff under the. tree. >> You get a little bit older, it's like. get good grades in school, you're going. to get get to go to a good university. and you're going to have a better life. >> When you get a little bit older in life, it's going to be if you actually behave. in a particular way, you're going to. meet the love of your life and that's. really going to complete you. >> So, it's always reward based. [clears throat]. >> It's always just like reward. >> It's kind of goal based. It's kind of. getting to a particular goal and making. progress toward the goal. So what how. we're really wired, which is really. interesting. >> Yeah. >> We think that what we really want is the.

reward. What we really want is progress. toward the reward. >> And if we think that we're going to be. in bliss when we get to the reward, we're going to we suffer from a a. syndrome called arrival fallacy. >> It's a funny thing. It's very common. that Olympic athletes who win the gold. suffer a clinical depression in the two. two months after they win the gold. because they've been suffering suffering. and suffering and they think that all. this progress which was awesome is. actually going to lead to permanent. bliss when they win the gold and it's. just another day. They go back to their.

hotel they're like you know looking. >> thing around their neck. >> Yeah. With a thing around their neck and. it's just another day and they're. looking at the rest of their lives when. they're no longer winning Olympic gold. medals and it's very very depressing. So, this is a funny thing about dieting. is another example of this. >> All diets will make you lose weight. I. mean, except for the all candy corn diet. or something, right? I mean, it's like. any sensible diet. You can cut fat, you. can cut carbs, you can cut, right? You'll lose weight. >> and and it's awesome, right? If you're. trying to lose weight because the scale. goes down. It's a reward every single. day in progress toward the goal. But.

what what's the reward when you actually. hit your target weight and that's never. getting to eat what you like ever again. for the rest of your life. Congratulations. Damn. That's why diets. don't work. They got about an 80%. failure rate. And 30% of people who go. on strong diets and hit their goal. developing eating disorder cuz they want. to keep making progress [music] because. progress is everything in life. We're going to continue this. conversation right after this short. break.

All right, Eugene. Let's play a [music]. little game. You know, make something. fun. Two truths and a lie. >> Mhm. >> Here we go. One. I've had to tell a. world leader that their fly was undone. Two, when getting dressed, I don't do. sock, sock, shoe, shoe. I do sock, shoe, sock, shoe. Three, I've been a Verizon. customer for 11 years. What do you. think? Very confused. First of all, why. would a world leader own a fly? Cuz. those things just come uninvited. [clears throat]. Secondly, lying to your friends is not.

cool. There's never been a game. >> No, Eugene. A fly is for like the zip is. what? And then it's it's it's not a lie. It's a game where I'm trying it's like I. give you information. Okay, I lied. All. three are true, Eugene. And in case you. were thinking, you know, Verizon isn't. as expensive as you think. In fact, if. you bring in your AT&T or T-Mobile bill, they'll give you a better deal. And the. reason I've been with them for this long. is just because I travel so much. I need.

a network that's reliable. That's right. A better deal on the best network with. the most ways to save on plans, streaming, and phone deals. Take your. AT&T or T-Mobile bill to your local. Verizon store today. Get your better. deal and start saving for real. Based on. root metrics, best overall mobile. network performance, US second half. 2025. All rights reserved. You must. provide recent consumer mobile bill in. the name of the person redeeming the. deal. Additional terms, conditions, and. restrictions apply.

So, do you understand how two truths and. do you understand it now? >> I understand that you didn't have to lie. first before telling me that Verizon is. the best. >> No, I wasn't lying. Eugene, it's not a. lie. I wouldn't lie to you. It's a game. [music]. >> Okay. I'm sorry. >> I lied. UH [laughter]. I think about like um the conversations.

I have with my younger brother always. fascinating to me because of how he sees. the world. I think he's one of the. smartest people I know and I always tell. him at his age he's way smarter than I. ever was maybe even now you know. But we. we had this conversation about video. games. And I said to him, there's a. there's a video online that that I. really loved and it was some kid who. made this video said, um, how you play. video games is how you live your life, right? And I was so intrigued by this. because he he did this whole breakdown. He said, "Some people play video games.

to finish the video game. They get in, they try and finish the story as quickly. as possible, get to the end, save the. princess, you know, end the story.". Thank you very much. He said some people. play video games and then get bored and. quit. Some people all everyone has. different methods but he said but you. can learn a lot about yourself because. playing a video game especially in. today's game is like a simulation of how. you are. >> And I realized for myself and I realized. for what a good game is. >> Great games. are the ones that. make you feel like you're trying to.

finish the game but constantly trick you. into doing things along the way. the. side quests that make you feel like. you're actually trying to get to the. end, but you get so swept up in these. many moments along the way that you. enjoy the game itself, the progress. >> But those are the great things. >> Yeah, they do it for you. But I've. realized. >> they do say it like that. It's progress. You get progress points. >> They literally write progress. But I've. noticed in the games where they don't do. that for you, >> if you're not careful, you can, and I'd.

love you to speak to this like beyond. gaming, but it's like if they don't do. it for you, >> there's some games where you can. literally just go straight to the end as. quickly as possible and be done. >> And I find you can be very depressed, as. you say. You get there and you're like, "Uh, I don't know about this. this was. it, you know, >> and it was and it was too hard by the. way because you didn't like level up the. way you should have or this the the the. inverse whereas. >> you spend so much time in the side. quests that you don't move towards.

progress because nothing's pushing you, nothing's propelling you, not you know. what I mean? And then what happens is. you quit the game, >> right? >> So you play like 40% of the game, >> you do everything around getting to the. end, [clears throat] but then you don't. get to the end cuz the game didn't it's. I forget what they call it, but. essentially some games will dole it out. in the right amount. you're moving. forward now you're moving sideways. sideways moving forward sideway some go. do whatever you want and it's. interesting how that flips and I. wondered how how that applies to life in. what you're saying. >> almost everything is like this people. who who truly are all about enjoying the.

journey they enjoy their lives because. they understand that life is all about. making progress toward particular moral. goals people who are all about actually. getting to the end so what what's the. the best predictor of having a crummy. marriage is having a destination wedding. because your wedding isn't a destination. Your wedding is just like the beginning. of a journey. Destination. Wedding. Destination. My. destination is actually. >> you're beginning something with the end. >> Locking that person down forever. No, there's no there's no destination in.

your wedding. Elopeice of the peace. I'm. Catholic. Don't do that. We're Catholic. We don't [laughter] do that. Priest. Go. to a priest. Go to a priest. Go to a. priest. >> That'll be thy name. >> Zulu. >> There you go. I wanted it in Zulu. >> Oh yeah. No. [laughter] Zulu because you know my. grandparents didn't lose one of the Zulu. like uh. >> this man is 10 months Zulu. You don't. forget that [laughter] it's epigenetic. expression that you know it's going to. come out. So so so this is really. important right? You got to see your.

wedding day as a step in progress toward. the eternal bliss that actually comes. from a a relationship, your soulmate. with whom you can actually experience. the divine and on whose face you'll be. gazing as you take your dying breath. >> Mhm. >> That's marriage. >> That's poetry. >> Marriage isn't wedding day. So then do. you do you think the worst thing we've. done and and I'm not trying to incept. you cuz this is what I think but. I'll tell you what I think and you tell. me if you agree. I've often thought one.

of the worst things that happened to. society was a series of movies. whether it was kids movies or adult. movies romcoms. >> but that were happily ever after. Like. they they ended at the moment where the. people met. And I I always wondered what. that did to people's brains growing up. in a world where they went like oh if. you meet the person you love that's the. end and then it's like this is it like. what is that to us as well? >> I never finished Pac-Man was they meet.

and then miss. >> but I never I've never seen the end of. Pac-Man. >> Yeah. >> I saw Junior Pac-Man so I know what they. did but I don't know Junior Pacman. >> Yeah. Junior Pac-Man. There was Junior. Pac-Man. >> Junior Pac-Man. >> Yeah. Junior Pac-Man. Baby baby Pacman. >> Like a tiny little Pac-Man had a little. bow and then but like a tiny little. Pac-Man. >> There was a girl Pac-Man. >> Yeah, there was a boy and a girl and a. boy Miss. >> No, there was Miss Pac-Man, but then. there was also Junior Pac-Man. >> Junior Pac-Man. Good. >> No, no, they family. >> Yeah, Pac-Man had. >> I like these family values in video. games like this. >> Yeah. No, Pac-Man did it, bro. I was. like, "Okay.". >> Yeah. Mario and Luigi did it well.

>> No, they were brothers, bro. I think you. mixing up the story. >> Yeah, they were family members. >> Oh, yeah. They were They were. >> My kids My kids are, you know, they'd be. They'd be like, "What are these guys? Pac-Man. What are they talking about?". >> Okay, Elder Ring. Fine. and we'll bring. in Elder Mario Call of Duty. We'll go. with We got every game covered here. You. You tell us the generation and we've got. you. We've [laughter] got you. >> We got you. It doesn't matter what it. is. But But help help us on like. >> Yeah. This is the problem. Happily Ever. After actually gives you distorted. understanding of what brings happiness. and life. It's the journey. It's the.

journey. It's the It's It's walking into. the future together with your beloved. It's actually the the the the process of. actually Lewis and Clark looking for and. going down the Missouri River as they're. going toward the Pacific Ocean. It's not. the Pacific Ocean. You just have to have. there's a there's a really great word in. Spanish that's a metaphoric word. It's a. sailing word. It's called roombo. Elbow is the the word in English is rum. line. R H u m line. And it's a sale. I. know it's a but it's not a metaphor that.

we use typically. That is the the the. the destination. That's a Ukitian. straight line from here to there. >> It's like the the piece of yarn at the. with a pin at the end of it. Right. >> Flying like the what do they call it? Straight as the crow flies. As the crow. as the crow flies. >> As the crow flies. Exactly. Right. So. and and and that's that's an important. concept because you say I want my life. to have. I want. you say you say in Spanish, right? And. and what that means basically is I want. to have a destination. and I want to.

have a I want to have a something that. is the arrival so that I can make. progress. The point is not that you're. going to be on this line the whole time. >> The point is that you got to you have to. have it, but because you can make you. can't make the journey without it. Otherwise, you're going to be like a you. know what's so depressing about cruises. >> There's a cruise ship. I don't want that. I don't want to get. in a boat and just go in circles. >> Okay. >> Because that doesn't feel like you're. making progress in this. >> Oh, now you're a Roomba. Very different. >> Nice. It's not going in one straight.

line. >> It's like the the vacuum cleaner, right? >> Yes. That little that little Have you. seen how that thing moves? You don't. want your life like that. >> Didn't they just go bankrupt? Didn't the. company go bankrupt? >> I wouldn't be shocked because I mean, have you seen that thing kind of. reviews? >> No [laughter] wonder. >> It's a It's a metaphor of unhappiness. So, what do you want? >> So, that's so that's interesting. You. you you want to be in a place where I. mean, this is this requires a total. rewiring of the brain, though. Like, how. I I even think about myself. I I don't. know how you'd think about it for. yourself, but I I think a lot of people. would relate to this idea of going, "Wait, wait, wait, wait.".

>> But but Professor Brooks, I've been. told, "Get the job. >> and then life, >> get the grades. Get the grades and then. I'm going to get the job. The grades is. the job. >> Get the house. Get the job. You're going. to be then you get the house, you're. going to be happy. Get the person in the. house with good. >> You get the marriage." It's like, guys. even say like, "If you marry me, >> you'll make me happy for the rest of my. life.". >> That's what they say. And I got look I. got data on that. >> No, it doesn't matter what you say on. your wedding day. It matters what you. say every day after that.

>> So what should you say to somebody? Not. if you marry me then. >> Let's go on a journey together. >> Ah, >> help complete me. >> Because together we'll wire our. batteries together. We'll create an. antenna to God. >> Yeah. Teach me something. >> Let's let's work beautifully. Let's uh. let's walk through life together. Yeah. >> Let's walk I want to walk through life. together. >> Damn, that's different. >> Yeah. It's a completely different. perspective, but it actually makes. perfect sense and people kind of know. that that's the case. And and if you. don't do that, by the way, there's a. easy neurobiology on why this happens.

We think that if we get that thing, that. burst of of of positive emotion, and. it's this funny little part of the brain. called the vententral tegmental area. When you tap it, it gives you this. [gasps and sighs] this sense of. euphoria. And so, you can get it from, you know, your girlfriend says, "I love. you." Or you can get it from a huge bump. of cocaine. We have very thrifty brains. >> [laughter]. >> It's the same. >> What a broad spectrum. >> Yeah, totally. Like and and it gives you. the sense of immediate abolance, joy, right? And we think we get that thing. that we really really want that the.

vententral tegmental area is going to. get tapped over and over and over again. But let me tell you, if you do something. that taps your vententral tegmental area. continuously, you're going to wind up in. rehab. >> You're on drugs. Yep. >> You're going to you're going to you're. an addict. I mean, that's exactly. >> Is that So, is that because we weren't. designed to have the vententral. tegmental tapped that many times? We're. not designed to feel emotion. continuously. >> Remember, emotions are an alarm. >> that there's something good for you or. something bad for you that you should. you should approach or avoid. >> That the the reptilian part of your. brain, the back of your head, is sensing.

stuff. Sensing stuff, sensing stuff that. sends data to the limbic system, which. is between 2 and 40 million years old. old. It it it predates homo sapiens. And. that's what creates emotions. Emotions. are reactions, a a universal language to. you that there's something out there. that there's a threat or an opportunity. And the opportunities gives you positive. emotion and then and the threats out. there give you negative emotion and they. clear really quickly so you're ready for. the next thing. >> So should we be in nothing states? >> No. No. No. No. We should actually say. understand our emotions, not chase them.

as if we're going to keep them forever. For example, if you're looking for. continuous positive emotion on the basic. basis of what you have or experience, you get on what we call the hydonic. treadmill. >> Ah, yes. >> You've heard about this hydonic. adaptation. >> Yeah. Hedonic adaptation, which is. basically I get the I get the, you know, the person that I love, I get the money, I get the the millionth Instagram. follow, whatever my thing is. And you're. just running, running, running, running, running, and that treadmill starts. speeding up until it's it's going with. terrifying speed. And then you're afraid.

to step off it because you're going to. face plant if you try to step off a. speeding treadmill. Yeah. >> And that's no way to live. And you're. hydonically adapting which is called. homeostasis where the brain is adapting. emotionally back to the baseline state. So you're ready for the next set of. circumstances. >> One of the best pieces of advice I ever. received in my life came from uh my best. friend's dad when we were still in. school. >> and they had grown to do well for. themselves. They didn't, you know, he. didn't grow up doing well and so he had. a nice car. They had a very decent. house, but it wasn't like super wealthy.

It wasn't a mansion or anything. >> But I remember speaking to him once and. I said, um, I asked him, I was like, "Yo, Babin, can I ask you a question? How much money do I need to earn to be. like happy and and to be set and to be. good?". >> What did he tell you? >> And he said to me, he said, "Yes, Trevor." He said, "Can I tell you. something?" He said, "I know some. people," and this was, I mean, now 20. years ago, he said, "I know some people. who earn," and he said like, he said, "I. know some people who earn 5,000 rand a. month, $500, let's say, or 250, whatever." And he's like, "And I know. some people who earn 50,000 rand a.

month." I was LIKE, "50,000 RAND A. MONTH? THAT'S [laughter] IMPOSSIBLE. THAT'S no one can earn that kind of.". And he's like, "No." He said, "Let me. tell you now.". He said, "I know more of my friends who. earn the 5 10,000 rand a month who are. happy than I do the ones who earn the. 50,000." He said, "Because with them, they spend that money and more every. month, then get depressed that they only. have it, and then they try and move it. to 60, then they spend 60, then they. move it to 70, then they spend 70." Then. he said, "I've watched them move up that. ladder." And and he said he genu and I'm.

I'm like 16 years old and he said to me. I know it seems like a myth but there is. no number. He said I've seen everyone in. my life. He said they just there is no. number. And I was like I I just I can't. believe anyone wouldn't be happy with. 50,000 rand a month. My brain was like. that's not possible. >> And the same thing is true with power. and the same thing is true with. pleasure. And the same thing is true. with fame. Fame is the worst. By the. way, fame is the only one of life's. rewards that you can only ever be happy. in spite of, never because of. But you.

want to be famous. Everybody wants to be. famous because fame is rising in the. hierarchy of your band of 30 to 50. individuals. >> where more people are thinking about you. than you're thinking about because. you'll get more you're more likely to. survive, get your caloric needs met, and. get lots of mates. >> The trouble is that we can't accommodate. that tendency to a world in which we can. actually be famous in front of millions. of people. That will make you literally. insane. Okay. >> It will make you literally insane unless. you're very self-governing. Unless. you're really self-managing. And you.

know tons of people in show business. >> Yeah. >> That are pretty nuts. They're pretty. nuts cuz they're on this treadmill of. more and more and more and I can't have. enough. And it's like drinking sea. water. The more that I drink, the. thirst, >> the more dehydrated they get. >> Exactly. Right. It's it's it's also. >> it also does this thing to you where. you know when you think about like the. fame of it all and how powerful it is. I've often thought one of the most. genius. things that Tik Tok did that I don't. think any other social media platform. ever did, but I I I watched on Tik Tok.

>> Tik Tok allows everyone to go viral. >> If you look at old social media, there. was there was sort of like the hierarchy. that existed in old media moved into it. So on Instagram, it was still like, oh, the most video, the most watched is the. Kardashians and there's this actor and. this is, you know what I mean? was very. difficult to just be. >> random. >> random and have no no. >> Tik Tok go to people's accounts [snorts]. watch how this one video almost everyone. has that is an outlier that's a blip in. their world. >> and then watch how their usage and.

posting exponentially jumps off. >> this is this is Vegas it works it works. the brain in the same way so Las Vegas. >> yeah so the the the way to get rich is. to work really hard and get a good. education and and and be responsible and. show up and and create value and create. some more value and and then and then. dot dot dot 30 or 40 years later you got. a bunch of money or go to a casino. >> and get and get a hit. And so the result. is I want the easy way. >> right roulette. That's Tik Tok. That's.

how the algorithm works. I'm going to. get a hit. I get a hit fast. >> because the videos get more and more. extreme. >> Yo man, they give you one and I've. watched people. >> never been on TikTok. I've watched. people like so crazy sto this is the. random thing thank god for me my friend. signed up to Tik Tok for me when it. first came out I I was like I can't keep. up anymore he was like no no no I'll. just do it for you because you don't. want to lose your account and it's going. to be the biggest thing and he was right. and um. >> because of because he was on it for me.

he was just using it and he lived in. like West Virginia and all the content. was to him and so till this day our. algorithm the algorithm is not like. completely correct and it didn't hook me. >> right. >> so I I get to enjoy Tik Tok Tok as a. pop, but I've I've literally never been. on TikTok for more than more than 6. minutes, 7 minutes. I deleted them. because of that. >> Ah, yeah. Because it hooked you. >> So, I had to put as many. >> Which one? Which one? >> Inconveniences. Any of them could. >> Twitter Twitter could get me like all. day every day. Really? Twitter?

>> No, no, no, no. Twitter's. >> news. News from here. Information. Information. Did you know this about. that? Did you know any information it's. got you Instagram? Ah, got you. Got you. Got you. It doesn't matter what it got. Got you. Got you. Got you. Got you. the. apps off your phone. >> Yeah, I deleted them. And then now what. I do is I log in on a browser which is. painful. It doesn't render correctly. The images are off. Sometimes it doesn't. load. Just that that block. >> You're trying to actually increase the. transaction cost. >> Yeah, that's that's all I do genuinely. cuz I I don't I don't believe I've tried. many times to go like I can handle this.

I even put a block on my phone five like. 10 minutes 20 minutes. I was like I got. this and then my phone will be like. you've reached your limit. And I shut up. phone and I'll just go back in. One good. way to do this, by the way, is put your. phone on black and white because it'll. actually make your brain work. differently as you interact with social. media. >> Like you when you change the color. scale, gray scale on the phone, gray. scale on the phone. That actually works. >> You'll be significantly less addicted. >> That actually Wait, how how does that. work? >> So, it's basically like drinking 32. beer. >> I don't know what that means. >> That means 3.2% alcohol.

>> Oh, okay. Got it. >> Right. And you'll be like bloated and. peeing and and and you'll be like, I'm. going to stop drinking beer. It just. doesn't have enough alcohol in it, too. And. >> to keep you buzzing. >> Yeah. Yeah. To keep you buzzing, you. have to do something that's way beyond. your level of boredom. >> And so, my oldest son, for example, has. I mean, my two I have three kids, 27, 25, and 22. My 25, and 22-year-old, they're in they're in in the military. Yeah. >> So, no, I mean, they're not they're not. active on social media. They can't be. My oldest son, he figured out that it.

wasn't going to be good for his life. So, he put me. >> Marines. [laughter]. I got two. >> That was not going to be good for his. life. Social media or the military? >> Oh, no, no, no. My oldest son who isn't. in the military, he put grayscale on his. phone for social media a long time ago. and he's never been addicted. >> He's never been addicted. >> Whatever. What What is that doing to the. brain? Explain that. >> So, there's a your brain interacts with. visually with social media and the. stimuli with social media in a lot of. ways. So, anything you get addicted to. is is involving dopamine. You know, dopamine is the is the neurom modulator.

of liking, learning, wanting, craving. And we have it because we need to learn. We need to be more effective as a. species. So when something comes along, you get a little reward from it. It's. like and the next time you think about. it, you get a minor reward which will. send you in search of doing that thing. again. But if it's just like it was the. day before, it's not going to be as much. and you want to get a little bit more. spritz of dopamine from the locust. ceruius go in your brain. So you got to. get more of it. >> Is how this works, right? And the.

stimulus, the more visually stimulating. something actually is, more beautiful, the more animated it is, the more it. looks kind of like real life, >> the more dopamine you get. >> is what it comes down to. So my son, my. oldest son, very wise, he just gets less. dopamine from this thing. And since he's. getting less dopamine from it, it's less. rewarding. And so he does it less. >> He's drinking. >> Were you always happy? >> I'm not happy at all. >> Oh, >> that's why I study happiness. >> Oh, there we go, folks. Now we're. getting to the crux of it. I'm much.

happier than I used to be because I. study it because power. >> What were you like before? >> Well, I mean. >> like where do we meet you now in life. and where were you before? >> So I I left I did a lot of different. things in my career as a professional. classical musician. I was a academic. I. I ran a company for a long time. I was a. CEO for a long time. >> And I left and came back to academia. because I wasn't happy. And I realized I. needed to go back to my roots as a. behavioral scientist because I needed to. sort some stuff out. What were what were. you when help me understand what made.

you realize you weren't happy? What were. you not happy about? >> Um so. >> how did you know you were unhappy? What. were you experiencing? >> Um from day to day my life felt gray and. I didn't feel like I was making progress. toward any metaphysical goals. I felt. like my relationships were suffering. I. had a lot of sort of anhidonia which. another way of saying that I didn't. really feel very much pleasure and that. nothing nothing delighted me, you know. Nothing delighted me. And my wife, who's. been with me for decades?

>> Yeah. 34 years, you said. >> Yeah. And she said, uh, you why don't. you use your PhD for something useful? >> Hilarious. That's a good part. >> And I said, like what? And she said, study yourself, you know, heal thyself. >> And and so and so I actually I went on. I'm on a pilgrimage. I retired. I mean, I stepped away, quit my job. 55. >> How old were you at the time? 55. Okay. And I I'd been running this think tank, this big nonprofit think tank in. Washington DC for almost 11 years. Great. job. Great job, but I was and it had.

nothing to do with the job, but I was. just empty, man. I was spent. Part of it. was that I was, you know, I didn't sleep. very well and I was I was working all. the time and I worked 80 hours a week. I. missed a lot of my kids childhood and I. was unhappy and so I did a pilgrimage, which I recommend to everybody by the. way. When you don't know what to do, go. for a really long walk. >> I did that. >> Did you? Would you Which one. >> you walked for a year? >> No. He just he went away. He just. disappeared from where we all knew him. >> Stop social media. Stopped work.

>> Went and lived by the beach. Was just. gone from everyone's lives. >> I recommend. >> decision I've ever made. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I I walked the community. of Santiago, which is across northern. Spain. >> Oh, you did like the actual pilgrimage, like walk pilgrimage. >> Yeah. That's what Catholics have been. doing for 1,100 years. >> How long is this walk? >> It depends on how long you do. I wanted. to do the whole 33 days, which is 800k. Yeah. And my wife's like, "No." So, we. did what she was able to was willing to. put up with, which was the last 160 km. >> Oh, that was a lot to put up with. A lot. of blisters, you know, and you walk.

yourself into a vulnerable state. You. walk yourself into weakness. You got to. be weak if you're going to find the. truth. I mean, that's why St. Paul said, "When I'm weak, then I'm strong." You. can't connect with anybody. We talked, we started this whole conversation. talking about embarrassment, shame, suffering. Yeah. >> Only then I mean it's like here here's. the thing. You guys told these stories. and this is when the audience is like. I'm like Eugene and Trevor. >> because that's how people actually. connect with you. And that's how you.

connect with yourself is by beating. yourself down. Then when the aperture is. opened to actually find the truth. >> and uh and so I had a complete by the. end of the by the end of the walk I had. a completely new life mission which is I. was going to spend the rest of my life. lifting people up and bringing them. together and bonds of happiness and love. using science and ideas. >> Do you have a memory of what your. thoughts were in the first few miles. versus the last few miles? >> The first few miles were you know uh my. feet hurt. Um this is boring. It's too.

hot. What am I doing? Maybe this was a. mistake. And only when I walked myself into a. kind of a submission to it, when I beat. myself into a kind of a submission, which is what a pilgrimage is all about. And life is a pilgrimage. It's also a. metaphor. You know, you enter into. Santiago de Compostella, which is this. city in northern Spain, where you end up. at a cathedral, which is this medieval. cathedral where where St. James, the. brother of St. John is where his remains. are. >> and uh and and that's where you're.

supposed to get this sort of sacred. knowledge. But that's a metaphor for. heaven because that's what life is. supposed to be for many for anybody in. in Abrahamic religions for sure and and. many of the karmic religions as well is. the whole idea is being reunited with. Godhead. >> Yeah. >> Being reunited with the divine. That's. the only See, here's the thing. >> For a lot of religious people, evidence. of the divine is that you crave [snorts]. the divine and can't get it on earth. Yeah, >> that's evidence [clears throat] of. heaven is that you really believe that. there's heaven, but you can't get it on.

earth. And the harder you try, the. further away you get from it. >> And the day you see it, you won't be. able to tell anyone about it. >> and then just for you cuz you can't die. and go to heaven and come back again and. say it was nice. >> And that's the metaphor of this of this. of this. I'm I'm walking to the. cathedral. I'm walking to the cathedral. I'm walking to the cathedral. And when. you actually people have been saying for. a thousand years that they're they're. blessed with sacred knowledge. And so. what what were some of your thoughts. towards the end of it now as you. >> it was becoming clearer? It was becoming. clear. It's like the clouds were lifting. a little bit and and and.

>> was your wife on the walk with you. >> Did her life change? Because it doesn't. sound like she was on the same quote. unquote journey that you were. She seems. like she was a little bit more clear. >> She's in a droid. She's an adept. She's. a spiritual adept. >> Okay. >> So yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. And. and she didn't have the same issues. I. mean my wife like so so the way that you. measure happiness with self evaluated. happiness is called canrol ladder. >> 1 to 10 or zero to 10 where zero is the. unhappiest person you've ever met the. worst so the person who's just miserable.

and 10 is this annoyingly happy person. that you know right. >> Joseph opio [laughter]. >> and and and your number is all things. considered at this point in your life. where you've more or le not right now. because you slept poorly last night or. you got a fight with your girlfriend or. whatever. >> it's more or less in your life what your. number is. That's incredibly stable and. accurate, it turns out. And my wife's a. nine and I was always like a three and a. half. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And and. I was doing, you know, all my work, I. was doing all kinds of cool kind of. interesting things and trying to create.

value and succeeding in my career and. the whole thing. And my wife said, "Why. did you become a behavioral scientist? Why?" And I said, "Well, I want to, I. guess, make life better for other. people." Start with you. start with. yourself because you're not going to. lift other people up unless you actually. start to get your mind around this. And. so that was that. That was it. I did a. pilgrimage and and then I I I left my. old work and I I I this is what I do. now. I get Look, we get to talk about. this in front of millions of people. >> Yeah. But why I'm I'm fascinated by how. you came to that conclusion. I'll I'll. tell you why. I've met many men who have.

been CEOs and have run companies and. have been in powerful positions. And. oftentimes when they hit that brick. wall, often times when their world turns. gray, >> they don't turn to something that's more. spiritually spiritually fulfilling. They. just search to more, right? >> You know, they just they turn to more. They go, maybe I should merge my. company. Maybe I need to buy a bigger. company. Maybe I need to find. So I want. to know what it was that you bumped into.

and maybe it was just your wife telling. you, but like what was it that made you. go, "Oh no, this hydonic treadmill is. not taking me anywhere.". >> So it it was a realization that I guess. I can explain best with a metaphor, which is that um I used to go to Taiwan. a lot for work for when I was running. this think tank. >> Is the food as good as they say? >> The food's great. >> Okay. >> Yeah, food's great. I mean, the people. are awesome. Every single person you get. a like a taxi driver gives you the. business card and it says CEO. >> because everybody is a CEO. I love it. >> Oh, it's really entrepreneurial. It's.

phenomenal. >> But that every time I would go, politicians and leaders and CEOs would. tell me every time I was in Taiwan, before you leave, you got to go see the. National Palace Museum, which is the. world's greatest collection of Chinese. art and artifacts in the world. It was. spirited across the Taiwan Straits. during the revolution. And it it would. take you weeks to see the entire. collection. You can't see the whole. thing. And I never had time. And I know. perfectly, I've been in a lot of museums. in my life, that if you've only got an. hour, >> then you're going to the only thing. you're going to remember is the snack. bar. Yeah. The the gift shop,

>> breeze through it, >> like through the gift shop. Right. >> So finally, um I I knew this was never. going to happen unless I took matters. into my own hands. And I hired a guide. I had two hours and I hired a guide. I. said, "Here's what I want you to do. I. want you to teach me in depth about 10. things in this museum." 10 things. I pro. I promise I'm going someplace with this. >> No. No. I what do you mean? I'm with. you. >> Yeah. 10 things and I want to know the. history and the providence and the. philosophy and I want to know the artist. and this is stuff from 8,000 years ago. until the present. And it was. phenomenal. So I'm standing in front of.

this twotonon block of jade that had. been carved into a Chinese village. And. I said even if I had never left the. United States just looking at this I. would say this looks Chinese, >> right? Why does this look Chinese? And. he said that's because of the philosophy. of art in China. And I said, "Oh, tell. me more." And he said, he said, he. answered my question with a question. It's very eastern. He said, 'When you, as a Westerner, think of a work of art. yet to be started, what image pops into.

your head? And I said, >> painting. >> An empty canvas. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. Painting. >> He said, "That's because you think of. things as starting from nothing and. through your own initiative coming into. existence." He said, "Okay." He said, "I. think about a work of art not being. started as an uncut boulder of jade. where the the the sculpture is inside it. and I have to take everything away until. I find it." And he said, and now here's. the important part. He said, "That's. also the difference in philosophy. between east and west, about life, about.

success." He says, "You westerners, you. think that if you're going to have. enough, add more, add more, add more, add more, add more, then it's going to. be perfect. By by the time you're 45. years old, if you're remotely. successful, more brush strokes means a. denser, darker canvas, and you're not. it's not getting better. It's getting. uglier. >> But you think more more paint, more. paint. You're sloshing paint on. You're. getting a boat at 75 or whatever, and. you're not getting happier. He said, "We. understand that the job on your last day. is to chip away the last piece of jade.

when it's perfect." And that means that. we chip away. We take away. We're. subtracting. >> He said, "That's the difference." And I. thought, "Ah, that's what I was thinking. about on that commamino." That's what I. was thinking about that commamino. What. do I need to chip away? I've been adding. brush strokes and adding brush strokes. and my canvas is not getting more. beautiful. >> I need a different metaphor. >> It's about sharing and giving. >> So, what do I need to do? I need. >> chip away. >> So, I started chipping away. Started. chipping away.

>> It's about giving and not taking. Yes, it is, you know, thinking and and now I. don't have a bucket list on my birthday. I have a reverse bucket list on my. birthday. Like, what am I going to stop. doing this year? What are the. relationships that don't serve me? What. are the possessions that are getting you. taking things out of the bucket totally. throwing totally reverse bucket list. like you know my last birthday, you. know, actually my my on my 60th. birthday, which was in 2024, right? It. was in the middle of an election year. And I'm like, what do I need to chip. away? And you know what it was is my. political opinions. I needed more.

political opinions because I needed. fewer political opinions because I need. more friends, right? [laughter]. And I was adjudicating friendships on. the basis of my political opinions. >> People are like, "No, no." And so I. wrote down my strongest eight political. opinions and I crossed them out. Not. because I think they're wrong. They. might be wrong. I for sure I believe. things that are wrong, but I'm not going. to know which until I'm hanging out with. people who disagree with me as friends. >> It changed my life. Yeah, that's that's. something we spoke to uh Robert Putnham.

about on the show. Still one of my. favorite human beings. My. >> colleague at the Kenny school. >> No, really. Oh, man. Bob Putnham is just. like. >> he's wonderful. >> He's one of my favorite human beings. because of how he synthesized what's. lacking in humanity today. >> And it's that [snorts] we think that. good politics creates good relationships. in society. And he was like, no, the. good relationships in society is what. creates good politics. And so we live in. a world now where we go we don't agree. so we don't spend time and if we get if. I get my politics good enough and I get.

my world for you good enough we will all. come together and it's like no no no if. we all find ways to come together not. around the politics. >> the politics starts to build itself in. the most meaningful beautiful ways which. is which is counter to how people think. and it's it's beautiful that you said it. that way. >> If relationships are downstream from. politics you're going to be miserable. >> Yeah. if uh if politics is downstream. from relationships and it's funny. because I've actually seen and. participated in these studies where when. you when you bring people who are really. diametrically opposed politically. >> together like Bernie Sanders voters and.

Donald Trump voters which actually they. have kind of a lot in common but anyway. there you and and you say okay you're. going to talk about politics it's like. daggers drawn right yelling but if you. tell them you're going to talk about. politics but first you got to talk to. each other about your kids you got to. tell each other about your. and they're laughing. >> and they're sharing stories about the. people that they love the most. And if. they have both have teenagers, it's like. you have a common enemy and it's just. and they and then they talk about. politics and this like they don't hate.

each other. Why? Because there's no way. to get to hate if you start with love. >> And that's the point. That's Bob. Putnham's point. >> I think we've placed such a I think from. the conversation that we're having now. and realizing what you're saying, we've. placed such little value on community. and the people that we have around us, right? We don't have a giving spirit when it. comes to opinions and what the likes of. other people are. For example, I hate. pickle ball, >> but there's these two friends of mine. that I can't shake off. >> that love pickle ball, but I've realized. >> relationship ender. >> Yes. But. >> is that you? Are you the pickle ball.

guy? [laughter]. >> I wasn't going to name names and out. people. >> One of them is at this table and it's. [laughter] not and it's not me. my process [laughter] full of. but I realized that the first time I. watched them playing pickle ball I was. like oh this is boring this sucks the. second time I went I was like they look. so happy doing this and the third time I. saw them growing within the game that. they were playing from the first time.

that I'd seen them which is three games. ago you know and I thought to myself if. I'm able to take myself away from what I. think is entertaining and watch others. who I care about being entertained that. makes me happy. It was almost like being. there and I started enjoying the snacks. there. I enjoyed the little walkabouts. there. I enjoyed the people that work. there and overhearing conversations. Then I realized it wasn't just about. seeing them happy. It was once I. realized that they were happy, I could. go out and find my own happiness and I. end up with happy friends in the car. >> What [clears throat] you did was you.

stopped doing this and you started doing. this. >> So So there's the that you you're two. people. Eugene is two people. Mh. >> There's me self, Eugene. >> Mhm. >> Looking at yourself. And there's self. >> There's there's suspenders. >> So there's [laughter]. >> I don't expect that from you. >> I'm sorry. That was a low blow. Low. blow. Turtle feet. Yeah. [laughter]. >> And there's self, Eugene, which is. looking out looking outward. And And it. is funny because you know the the most.

popular class on most college campuses. You know what it is? >> Astronomy 101. >> Why? Exactly. Why? Finally, I ask a. student, "Why do you are you?" Because. they're like English majors, communications majors. They're not. astronomers. They're not physicists. They say, "Why do you love this so. much?" And this girl says, "Well, you. know, I don't know." But on Thursday. morning, I got my astronomy class at. 9:00. And I go in, I'm super stressed. out because because I had a big argument. with my mom and I think I'm going to. break up with my boyfriend because I got. a B, which at Harvard is like the end of. the world. and and and she says and I.

sit in that class for an hour and a half. and I come out and I'm a speck on a. speck on a speck. [sighs]. >> That's the eye self. >> And we can actually that's the self. It's looking outward looking outward. looking outward. That's the reason that. >> out and out standing in awe watching. people who are enjoying themselves. >> serving other people worshiping God. being in nature listening to the works. of Johan Sebastian B. Whatever your. thing is, that's the eye self. Looking. in the mirror, notifications on social.

media, pure torture. >> I had been there three times to tell you. the truth, Arthur. Three times. And I. didn't realize that they had ginger ale. While when I was the happiest yesterday. about what they were doing and what we. were going to do afterwards, which was. going to go eat steak at Peter Luga's, which was in my bucket list forever. I. discovered in that fridge that they had. ginger ale. >> Do you love ginger ale? >> Love ginger ale. >> Really? But you couldn't have seen it. before because you focused on how much. you didn't like pickle ball. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And yesterday I saw it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you looked out and saw.

something beautiful, which is people. that you loved. >> doing something that they truly enjoyed. And love is the basis of happiness. And. enjoyment is a macronutrient of. happiness. And when you witnessed that, it changed your life. It changed your. perspective. It wasn't a pickle ball. It. could have been anything. >> So how do we find this balance? Because. >> pickle ball, by the way, was invented in. my city where I grew up. You grew up in. Washington? >> I grew up in Seattle, Washington. >> Yeah. Wow. Look at that. >> Yeah. I grew up in Seattle, Washington. And when I was a kid about which was a. lot like 70s and ' 80s, people were. playing pickle ball. It was like a local.

thing. Now everybody's playing pickle. ball. >> Yeah. Know upon then or was it always a. thing of cool people playing it? >> It was I don't know who it was. All I. know is old age homes. Old age homes. invented it as a as a lowrisk sport. >> Yeah. Exactly right. That actually you. wouldn't wipe out your knees or. something. >> Yep. >> I used to go. >> No one said anything about your wrist. [laughter] Yeah, >> I used to go to the only Starbucks in. those days. I used to walk to the only. Starbucks. >> because that's the capital of it, right? That was the I lived I grew up in Queen. Anne Hill and I would go over the top of. Queen and Hill and down to the the Pike.

Place Market. >> This is back when So this is when it was. Boeing town basically is when you were. when you were growing up there. This is. when Boeing ran the town. >> Warehouser and Boeing warehouser is. >> warehouser is a is a logging logging is. a. >> I did not know that. >> was an extractive industry and so sort. of low. >> low education high skill was warehouser. high education high skill was bowling. when I grew up. My dad taught at a local. college there. >> So the techn. had a PhD in bioat.

>> Yeah. >> And your mom taught? My my mother was an. artist was a artist of like like a minor. acclaim in the Pacific Northwest. >> What a beautiful combination, right? The. arts. Yeah. No, it really is. >> They were wonderful people. Wonderful. people. >> You you just saying that this is just my. anecdotal amateur, no no science-based. research, nothing brain. M I feel like I. have noticed a decrease over the years. in people and [snorts] maybe this is. soioeconomic whatever it is but I've.

noticed a decrease just from my. perspective disclaimer disclaimer. >> in the amount of people who are with. somebody who's like from a completely. different discipline to them. Do you. know what I mean? I feel like a a. previous generation was like my dad was. a scientist, my mom was an artist. My. dad was a this, my mom was a that, my. dad was and then like these days people. like we're accountants we're lawyers. I. know that's called homogamy. >> Homogamy is a really is a very is a it's. a a phenomenon that's growing in. prevalence where people is happening. >> Oh, totally totally completely and and.

by the way it's socioeconomic too which. is a real problem. Yeah, that's what. that's sorting. It's assorted. assortative mating where people are are. meeting. It's like they go to college. and they meet they marry people from. other fancy colleges that do the same. thing that they do, right? And you know. that's just. >> wow. >> I mean great fall in love with whoever. you want, right? But it's. >> Yeah. meet more people that you can fall. in love with. >> There's another problem in here. There's. another like a neurochemical problem. Here's the here's the the wrinkle in. this. And this this is exacerbated by. the way by dating apps.

>> Dating apps allow you to curate the. relationships, curate the people that. you meet on the basis of your comp uh uh. your compatibility. >> So you say, I want somebody who, you. know, is votes like I do and somebody. who likes the same kind of music that I. do and somebody who thinks that, >> you know, Austin, Texas is really. awesome and and somebody who likes to. eat Sriracha. I don't know, whatever. >> You want to date yourself. >> and and that's not hot. >> It turns out that what's most hot is a. baseline of compatibility and tons of. complimentarity. And you don't find it.

you don't find it on on on most apps. Some apps are getting much better about. this because they're trying to not. maximize time in app. They're trying to. maximize time in person, which is really. important. But there's this whole. literature on this. There's these. >> this uh physiology experiments where do. have you ever heard about the t-shirt. sniffing? Uh. >> oh, yeah. That's one of my favorite. experiments of all time. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, >> what happened to my t-shirt? [laughter]. >> Did you? >> It is one of my favorite experiments. >> It's great. >> Eugene. So, so Trevor and I will tell. you about the t-shirts. >> Yes, please. No, you go. You go. Please.

You know the I'm sure you won't mess up. the details. I I think I know all of. them, but I you can go. >> It's a mid '90s thing. So, and what the. the the the researchers did was they. they they used they have an experiment. with undergraduates cuz that they'll do. anything for 20 bucks. And uh they had. guys who would wear these t-shirts. around for 48 hours, >> but no deodorants and no, nothing. They. would do their thing. They play sports. or walk around, just go to class, whatever. Then they took their t-shirts. off and they put them in shoe boxes and. drilled holes in the shoe boxes and they. gave them to random women who didn't. know the guys necessarily. There was no.

identifying marks on the boxes and they. would sniff the t-shirts through the. holes and then they had to rate them on. the hotness of the guy. And it turns out. that the hotness was inversely. correlated to the similarity genetically. of the men and the women. No. >> And the reason is that what it was. Yeah. So the more different somebody is. from you genetically, the hotter you. find their smell because the alactory. bulb in the brain picks up what's called. the major hystocompatibility complex, >> which is a measurement of how much. genetic uh or or how much um um how how.

resistant you're going to be to. diseases. You want people somebody. really different than you that you have. kids with. >> So your kids get a better repertoire of. defenses, >> right? >> And that's how you sense it. One of the. ways that you sense it. >> That's why you should never pick your. that that you should you should never. pick your own perfume. Women should. never pick their own perfume. >> Because if women pick their own perfume, they like something, right, that smells. like that smells attractive to them, which is like their boyfriend. And their.

boyfriend smells it and says, "That. smells like my sister. not hot. Always let your beloved pick. your boy pick your perfume. >> because you you're trying to smell good. for them, not for yourself. >> But what you're doing is you're trying. to smell good for them. So you pick. something that smells delicious to you. and something that smells delicious to. you. You've already you've already. picked that person on the basis of your. old factory bulb because that person is. right for you. That a a huge amount of. attraction comes from smell. Like I met. my wife and I'm like I don't know. It's. like it's like cantaloupe on a August.

afternoon. Hey. M m. >> It's [clears throat] just like I can't. get enough of it. I mean, 34 years in, I. can't get enough of my wife's smell. Can't get enough of it. >> That's because it doesn't smell like me. >> Yeah, it's it it is the right kind. Is. it Is it true? And I correct me if I'm. misremembering this in the study. I also. remembered that they um showed the. people pictures of the guys. >> Yeah. >> So, they give you the box, you sniff, >> and then you go rate from 1 to 10, but. then they would also give them a picture.

of guys and go rate them from 1 to 10. And the numbers that they chose were. almost exactly like so the guys they. gave a seven was the picture they gave a. seven. The guys they gave a three was. the picture they gave a three. And. people were like how is this? >> Yeah. So Love is Blind is great as long. as there's like holes in the wall that. you. >> that [snorts] you can sniff through. >> sniff it through cuz you're it's. basically you're going to you're going. to get a lot of the same information. >> So now let going back to sort of what. you were saying earlier about us finding. this balance. You know, you talk about. your wife, you talk about your. relationship, you know, applies to kids,

families, societies, etc. >> Are we in danger of living, you know, when you talk about east versus west, are we in danger of living in a world. where we are so encouraged to pursue. individualism that we then end up losing. happiness? Like is there an extreme that. you can go to where it's like your. rights, your freedom of everything, your. house, your car, your swimming pool, your you know what I mean? Like does. that limit your happiness in a way that. we don't really understand?

>> For sure. Absolutely. For sure. And this. the balance that we're trying to get. This is like the dark side of the. enlightenment in its way. I mean, the. enlightenment is phenomenal. It's great. You know, we we've gone from might makes. right to trying to persuade each other. rule of law, markets, individuality, >> democracy, all this good stuff that we. count on. But the other truth about this. is this individuality, it it makes us. into islands. >> And that's something that we have to. it's it's it's something that we have to.

be aware of and be taken care of in our. own lives. I have this super ultra my my. my favorite my favorite philosopher is. Ralph Waldo Emerson. >> Okay. >> Have you ever read self-reliance by. Ralph Waldo Emerson? >> I don't know that I have. It's just like. the sturdy lad who always does it on his. own, who farms it, who minds it, and who. always lands on his feet like a cat. That's the stuff that I want. I mean, I. bailed out of my hometown when I was a. kid, never came back. It's me, man. It's. me against the world. That's not the.

secret to happiness. It just isn't. >> And I have to be really, really aware of. that all the time. I have to be clear on. the fact that my impulses toward. individuation, toward radical. individualism. I I get it. I'm I'm I'm. an American by birth. You guys are. Americans by choice. >> No, we're not. We're South Africans all. the way, baby. [laughter]. >> I will notice that we're in New York. We're in New York. >> New York doesn't count. [laughter].

>> Trevor Millie just said that New York's. not part of America. Anyway, New York. said New York's not part [laughter] of. America. You can't that one. You can't. get me on. New York will protect me. They'll be like, "Yeah, what you going. to do about it, Bruce?". >> No, no, no. So, so, >> but this is important because like a lot. of people watching us are are really. really individualistic. But the point is. that you can't you can't actually find. love by becoming more and more isolated. >> Yeah. >> And that means that there's so many. things that we have a tendency to do. that we actually have to self-govern. that we actually have to manage. You.

have to walk back from I mean look. there's many tendencies that everybody. knows about. I want to you know go get. drunk because it's awesome. Yeah. >> But I'm not gonna do that because it's. not the right thing to do. >> But that's like an obvious one. >> That's sort of obvious. Not obvious to. everybody. I mean that's the pursuit of. pleasure is really diliterious. As it. turns out. >> people do all kinds of things and they. think if I get it goes back to what we. were talking about. If I get enough. money there's going to be a number. >> I'm going to meet my number. I'm going. to scratch the itch so hard that finally. I'm not going to itch anymore. That's.

true for money. It's also true for. individuality. >> We need people. We're social animals, right? >> What does it do to our brains when we. cuz I I think I've heard you speak about. this or I've read something about this, but it's I I'm I'm intrigued by what it. does to our actual brains when we need. people and we actually express that. need. Why does that make us happier? I. don't understand that. >> So, we're effectively we're emotionally. completed. And there's a lot of, you. know, we could we could talk about this. neurobiologically, but it makes sense.

Yeah. >> That we actually don't feel ourselves. when we're all by ourselves. Yeah. >> That we really are. And, you know, we're. we're we're made to live in kinship. We're made to live in kin groups. And. that makes perfect sense because if you. you truly were an individual, you'd be. walking the savannah and getting hunted. down in minutes. >> So, you need to actually feel complete. when you're around your people. that. that's and that that's a an evolutionary. imperative is to be around your people. because you know the the members of the.

species that didn't have that they're. going to die off [laughter] they're. going to die off you know that's just. the way it is and that's one of the. reasons that there's very very very few. people I've met a hermit I met a hermit. in the Himalayas and he hadn't lived. with anybody for 27 years he saw people. very infrequently he he granted me uh. and what he does every day he wakes up. 6:00 in the morning and he you know. makes himself a little breakfast by. himself and then he reads a bunch of you. know texts in Tibetan and and you know. and then and he sees nobody and he he.

you know he'll say he'll talk to the. monkeys a lot of monkeys and and he says. he's blissfully happy blissfully happy. that's very unusual that's an aberration. that's not that's not the norm as it. turns out now some people are more. introverted and some people are more. extroverted but introverts need people. too we need people we don't feel like. ourselves you don't know who you are. unless you actually have Somebody who. mirrors your back to yourself. >> Yeah. >> Oh, that's deep. >> Mhm. >> Don't press anything. [music].

We've got more. What now? After this. You know, Eugene, one of the things I've. always loved about food is you can. travel without going anywhere. Some. people book flights. I just walk into. Whole Foods Market. Whole Foods Market. is your go-to destination for a flavor. tour inspired by regions across the. world. [music] Like one minute I'm. thinking about making dinner, the next. thing I know I'm in Italy because I. picked up the Czech pasta and Rio's. sauce. The Czech pasta. Then I see Ciet.

tortillas. San Pelro. Now we're in. Mexico with sparkling water confidence. Ciet tortillas. And if you don't feel. like cooking, well, the prepared foods. department at Whole Foods Market makes. dinner time so easy. Empanadas, burritos, soups, lunch or dinner solved. You just follow the yellow signs and. suddenly you're on a flavor tour without. leaving your postcode. Burritos. Exactly. Uh if you want snacks, plantain. tostones, uh Peruvian potato chips, filos, walking tamales. You're basically.

touring Latin America through crunch. alone. Tamales. And don't forget dessert because every. good trip ends with something sweet like. t leches cake. Expand your horizons. without expanding your luggage. T lees. If you need a weekn night shortcut, you. could also head into Isisles for 365 by. Whole Foods Market. Rice, beans, chunky. salsas, instant taco nights. Tacos. Or check the frozen aisle for 365 brand.

takitos at low prices. Dinner handled. >> Tito? >> What are you doing, dude? I'm trying to. do an ad. >> I think I can speak Spanish now. >> What do you think you could? You're just. saying the words that I said. >> I said everything in Spanish. [music]. >> I mean, the words are already in. Spanish. I commit takitos. >> Save on regional flavors at Whole Foods. Markets. >> [music].

[music]. >> There's something Eugene will often. bring up that I think is important to. get into and it's. how we talk about. this how we talk about these ideas. whilst also acknowledging the positions. that people are in their lives you know. so I would love to know when when you're. teaching people about happiness is there. a way to break it down according to how. people are living their lives. And this. is what I mean. You know, sometimes. people go, "Hey, money is not. everything." But it's often the people. who have money who are saying it. And.

I'm literally borrowing this from you. You know, it's like, "But you have the. money." It's it's a lot easier for. someone to say it when they have the. money. And it's a lot easier. It's a lot. easier for somebody to say, "Hey, man, don't let work be your life." And it's. like, "Yeah, but I have to work for my. life, and this this has to be my life.". So, how do how do you think of happiness. in in those ways? Is there is there a. you know is there like a shifting wheel. that clicks? Is it you know is there a. way to think of it differently or does. it just apply to everyone the same. regardless of what's happening to them? >> So everybody needs enjoyment, satisfaction and meaning the.

macronutrients for sure. But there are. habits that everybody actually that the. happiest people are are dedicated to. [clears throat] and and those basic. habits fall in the categories of faith. or life philosophy, >> friendship, uh family and meaningful work. Those are. the four big buckets. The happiest. people are doing. >> what our grandmothers did. Funny enough. >> Yeah. Kind of. >> No, they really nailed that. Everything. you said there was like these are. grandmothers. >> And what's actually pushing us away from. this by the way is the misuse and. overuse of technology. That's one of the. reasons that the big the big problem the.

crisis that we're having in happiness. today for particularly for people under. 35 is that they don't know meaning. The. number one predictor of depression and. anxiety is saying my life feels. meaningless. And the reason for this is. because the misuse and overuse of. technology have changed the way that. people use their brains and pushed them. away from the old ways. So the old ways, you know, it's like I I I I guarantee. you that, you know, Grandpa Noah never. came home to grandma and said, "Honey, I. had a panic attack behind a mule today.".

>> And then grandma said, "You have a. mule?" I was picturing, [laughter] you. know, I'm picturing the same thing. I. was like, >> "Mule?" No, but I was like, you're not. wrong, though. >> But the reason is because, you know, I I. don't want to go live like Grandpa Noah, and neither do you. >> Yeah. >> I don't want to live like my grandfather. and smoke a pack of Winston's a day. I. don't want to do that. >> But I do want my brain to work the way. it's supposed to work. >> Oh, >> and the truth of the matter is that. we've hemispherically lateralized our. brain. We've moved activity to the left.

hemisphere of the brain, which is all. about what and how and efficiency and. grinding and achievement and and and. reals and apps and tech and the right. side of the brain when you're bored and. when you're in love and when you're. suffering and when you see beauty, that that right side of the brain gives. you mystery and meaning and all the. stuff that you actually can't quite. articulate. So that's the this is the. big difference that I actually see. The. unhappiest people that I meet today are.

all living on the left and the people. who are happiest are doing a bunch of. old weird things that are weird now that. would have been ordinary life before. that are helping them to be on the right. side of their brains. >> You know, also what you're explaining. helps me rationalize my. hate for conversations about AI. >> Yeah. Because when when I hear people. who despise the thought of AI coming. more and more into our lives, it makes. me understand that they are more and. more addicted to this technology that.

they feel like AI is going to take. >> AI won't replace you making breakfast or. taking a walk with your loved one or. with your child or writing a book. It. has no interest in that. But if you have. made technology your the cornerstone of. your happiness and of your purpose and. what keeps you busy and what keeps you. entertained, of course you're going to. worry when someone or something comes. and threatens that, right? >> Of course. No, no, for sure. And you. know the way for people to understand. this for AI, can AI make me happy. What. will you love? Your cat? I know you. won't. Or a mechanical cat.

And and and it's it's a question that. answers itself. Mechanical cat can be. really, really, really amazing. But. you're always going to know it's. actually not alive. Yeah. So, what does. live mean? I don't know. It's I can. simulate it, I guess. No, no, no. You. know what alive means. You know it. So, that's why AI, by the way, can bring you. greater happiness if you're solving how. to and what technical problems, freeing. up your time and going being with the. people you love. But it will lower your.

happiness if you're using it for right. brain functions by making it your. therapist and your lover and your. friend. I mean it might fool you for a. minute but it won't fool your brain. You. can't simulate meaning. >> it can give you high resolution of what. Central Park looks like or you can be in. Central Park. >> Yeah. And that's a point that's an. important point. You can't So when I was. a relative much younger man 25 years ago. now was the most popular movie of the. year was the Matrix. >> Oh right. >> That's a great movie. >> Still my most popular movie. It's a. great movie. Still my most popular.

movie. >> 26 years ago now. Depending on when we. air this, it's going to be 27 years ago. >> 26 years ago. >> It was 1999. >> Oh, wow. I don't feel like the Matrix is. that. Wow. >> Sorry, dude. >> Yeah. >> Damn. I know. Not in a bad way. I'm just. like feel It's like imagine how I feel. Anyway, [laughter] so. so and and in the Matrix, the the plot. of the movie obviously is that there's. this super intelligent machine life, like fake life in a machine that has to. it's it's an a super intelligence and it.

has to power itself on human endeavor. And it does so by putting people in pods. and simulating a real life that's really. really pleasant and distracting and and. kind of narcotic. >> and and that's like crazy science. fiction. We're in the Matrix. We're in. the Matrix. I mean, it's like I'll get. up, you know, I check my phone and then. I go to work, which is on a Zoom screen. and all my friends are kind of on social. media and then I'm going to date. and and a lot of my accomplishment is. going to come from gaming. It's the.

matrix. >> which is getting you stuck in the left. side of your brain. And the one thing. you'll never get from that is meaning. >> Isn't it weird that we go, I'm bored, swipe. I am hungry. I want to get from A. to B and I want some company. >> Yeah. >> But we're doing all of it is here. >> And the great irony of this is that your. grandfather, he his day-to-day existence. was pretty damn boring. It was he did a. lot of a lot of stuff was his job was. pretty boring. He. >> worked in the railway. So he was pretty.

bored. Yeah. But he never at the end of. his life, he wouldn't have said, "My. life has been very boring." Because his. life wasn't boring. But here's the. thing. If you live like modern people do. today, not using your brain the way it's. supposed to, you're never actually bored. moment to moment, but your life is. unbelievably boring. I always say it's the um elimination of. friction that that we take for granted. Like as as you increase convenience, >> I've implemented that so many times. remember when we spoke. >> like the cost of convenience is one that. we haven't fully understood yet in life.

>> and it's it's actually interesting to. see I know I've spoken about this before. but. >> go and look at the tech entrepreneurs. who make technology in India all over. Africa Nigeria Kenya South Africa you. name it look at the tech that they make. they make tech that solves a problem. that was otherwise unsolvable. >> you know what I mean so they'll make an. app that enables farmers to know when to. plant their crops so that they have the. highest yield and they don't lose, you.

know, 40% of their crops or whatever. And then you look at the western world, the US in particular, most of the apps, they don't solve a problem. >> You can find a closest pizza at 10 p.m. >> Do you know what I mean? And and I think. of. >> meaningful. >> No. And [laughter] and I think of I. think of what you're talking about now. What it's robbed us of is. [clears throat]. >> the walk to go find the pizza place, the. conversation. Remember asking somebody. for directions? You know how crazy those. moments were? Or asking someone where.

you're trying to get somewhere and that. might spark something and then because. you're in a place then someone else. talks to you and then a thing happens. and where did you bump into each other? >> All of the most wonderful things or many. of the most wonderful things that will. happen to you in your life are. inconvenience. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's that's why they happen. A. pilgrimage is induced inconvenience. >> Oh, I love that. Induced inconvenience. >> Totally. I mean, you're putting a bunch. of friction in your life. Like, I'm. going to walk. Even though I could fly, I could drive, I could take a train, I'm. going to walk hundreds of miles, I'm.

going to walk, and it's going to hurt. I'm going to do that. Take time. >> Why? Because I want to I want to get. access to the special information that. comes to me when I'm not actually. arriving. So, let me ask you this. As. somebody who who's written multiple. books about this, I'm always intrigued. by the things that scholars keep. learning about a subject that you would. think they would have otherwise. conquered. >> You know what I mean? >> And I want to know what what you are.

newly discovering or or what's newly. exciting you in the field of happiness. that you haven't previously delved into. >> Yeah. So. my background is behavioral science. >> Okay. >> And behavioral economics, psychology, etc. I had to retrain learning a lot of. neuroscience because the vanguard is. this realization that psychology is. biology. >> that if you don't understand the brain. you don't understand the mind and I'm. not a radical physicalist I'm a. religious person you know I'm a.

traditionally religious person so I'm. not a radical physicalist where it's. it's all. >> it's all here and nowhere else. >> I I don't actually believe that but the. truth is I'm not going to understand. what's going on with my emotions unless. I understand what's going on with my. lyic system Mhm. >> And that's the vanguard. That's super. fun and exciting. It's unbelievable for. my writing. I'm reading 10 to 20. neuroscience articles a week. So, I've. had to really retrain in it. I'm not I'm. not an expert. I have a PhD in. neuroscience. I mean, I I talk to. neuroscientists. It's like, "Oh, man. This is so far above me." You know, I. listen to like Huberman. He's truly is a.

great neuroscientist. >> and and I don't hold a candle to that, but the more that I'm learning, the more. excited that I actually get. And that's. the that's a that's a learning. pilgrimage that I get to be on for the. rest of my life. It's just so exciting. >> discovering new parts of. >> you're pumping that limit. >> How the how the thing one thing connects. to the other thing connects to the other. thing. >> What so so it's the same thing I can ask. you though. So you've been at the top of. your profession. What are you doing to. stay fresh and to learn? What is. thrilling your heart these days that.

you're learning? >> So now I'm trying to be a professional. at living. Tell me more. Sort of going. back to what we spoke about earlier. Um, I realized I'm very good at working. >> Yeah, >> I've worked my entire life that I've. that I've been allowed to work, you. know. >> So, I've I've worked my entire life. I'm. very good at working. I'm very good at. adapting to that work, understanding it, and getting to a level of proficiency. that allows me to earn a living in that. work. >> What I've never been particularly good. at is living. >> Ah, you know, so recently I went to my.

first wedding ever. That at the age of. 41 years old, I went to a wedding. I. >> And it wasn't yours, right? >> No, it wasn't. [laughter] I accepted an. invitation. I attended and for the first. time I was like, "Oh, this is what a. wedding is. >> I see." And we sit like this and then. those people, "Oh, wow. This is a" Do, you get what I'm saying? >> Yes. >> I've never done that. And I've never. done it because. >> I think for the most part, it's been. work. Work comes. Most people don't know. when their weddings are before I know my. schedule,

>> right? >> So, by the time you know your wedding, I'm like, I'm already working that day, >> you know? And now this one was a. combination of me saying I will make the. space but I luckily the person told me. >> why why why why why the the. preoccupation with work. >> So why the preoccupation with work? No, it was. >> because you love your work. >> I think it was a combination of two. things. One. >> um survivability. So the first one was. just like earn a living, >> right? >> There was no like choice and I always. tell people people like why did you. become a comedian? I'm like because it's. the only job they weren't interviewing. for. You know what I mean? I didn't need.

to come with qualifications otherwise I. would have done other things. No dates. >> Yeah. Yeah. Really? >> Um the other thing was that I enjoyed it. and I started developing and I still. work on a. >> master super high achievement. orientation. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I go like this is great. because you are your number one. macronutrient is satisfaction. >> Mhm. >> Is achievement that you get after. struggle. Achievement. Achievement. Satisfaction from So So and you're like. a virtuoso at satisfaction. >> So what I love is I'm I'm a big fan of. luck theory.

>> Yeah. Right. And when I discovered this, it changed my whole life. So there was a. a French philosopher who wrote a whole. book about luck. >> Yeah. >> And the principles of luck. And he said, we always just talk about luck as if. it's this one flat idea. So lucky, unlucky, terrible, good things, not bad. for you. Uhhuh. Lucky. And he wrote this. whole book. And he broke luck down into. these four quadrants. And he said, we. need to understand what luck is to. understand how we welcome or dissuade. luck from coming into our lives. >> So he said, >> it's not luck.

>> Yeah. So, so the first thing is dumb. luck, right? It's the luck where. something just is. It is because it is. where you were born your grandparent. Dumb luck. If they learned Zulu, now. you're a South African. That's totally. different experience. Washington show in. Zulu. >> There you go. Brooks. emotions.

[laughter] What do you How do you flick. in Zulu? What do you even say? How do. you flick? I don't know what flick is in. Zulu. >> I don't think there's a word for it yet. >> Yeah, we got to come with a flick. You. got to flick your Yeah, but anyway. Um. [laughter]. >> No. So, so, so there's your your dumb. luck. >> We almost lost the whole show there. >> You cannot control [laughter] it. Oh, >> yeah. Yeah. YEAH. >> YOU'RE NUMBER ONE. THERE'S A SPIKE. THERE'S A SPIKE in the [laughter]. rating. What's happening? Um, >> so dumb luck. Things that you cannot.

control. This. >> you cannot blame anyone. You cannot. thank. It's just happening. That's you. >> Country you're born in, people you're. born to, lang, etc. >> Family. >> Then the next one is luck of motion. >> Luck of motion is literally what it. sounds like. Once you start moving, luck. can happen to you. You can't stub your. toe without getting out of bed, but you. also can't bump into somebody in the. street without walking into the street. Do you get what I'm saying? And that's. luck. Oh, so lucky. You know who I. bumped into? Oh my god. Luck of That's. lack of motion, right? Then the third. one is lack of awareness.

>> This one is an interesting one to me cuz. it's the ability to see and notice the. ginger ale. >> at the pickle ball place. >> I'm so lucky there's ginger ale here. No, you were aware that there was ginger. ale and so you became lucky. Mhm. >> So, there are two people walking down a. street. >> There's $100 on the ground. The one. person is aware that there's $100. The. other one isn't. One person says, "I'm. so lucky. I found $100." The other. person, oh, I'm unlucky. I've never. picked up. I've never found money. You. weren't aware that there was money. Exactly. >> And that applies to everything. It.

applies to love. It applies to. opportunities and work. It's someone who. sees a sign that says, "Help wanted.". >> They're just aware. They see a place. opening and they go, >> "Hey, are you guys going to look for. work? Do you need people here? You. haven't even advertised, but I've. noticed that you're starting a new. store. You know, that's awareness. And. then the last one, which I find most. interesting, is the lack of uniqueness, specialization. When you choose to delve. into something and really, really, really get into it. It doesn't matter. what it is, a sport, a hobby, uh a.

profession, uh it doesn't matter what it. is. It presents unique opportunities to. you that'll make you feel lucky, >> but they aren't necessarily just lucky. So, by you being a professor who. specializes in happiness, you are more. likely to be lucky to bump into Oprah. Winfrey. I'm so lucky. Oprah liked me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a lot. harder to meet Oprah. >> when you're not in this world. Do you. get what I'm saying? >> No, for sure. >> It's a lot easier to meet LeBron James. if you specialize in basketball. It's.

just a lot easier. I'm not saying it'll. happen, but it's easier. >> So, this is this stuff is great. And. there's a the best psychologist on this, a British guy named Richard Wisman. Oh, I mean, if your name's Wiseman, I. mean, you've got to now. You can't. What. are you going to do? >> You can't be can't be stupid. >> Yeah, that's like old wise over here. >> And and then his [laughter] his his. cousin Henry idiot. >> Yeah. Like, oh man. >> Didn't do as well. >> That was a good [laughter] one. >> So, so and and the fact that you think. about this an awful lot. >> You got this heavy achievement. orientation.

>> Yes. But what to to to wrap it up in. terms of the life thing, what I realized. was I was like, "Oh, Trevor, you think. to yourself, you're like, "Oh, man. I I. wish you know I had more wedding. stories. I wish and I was like oh. instead of wishing for them. >> why not try and work on the luck that. makes these things happen. >> So create more space in your diary. >> Mhm. >> And this is this is your project now. >> Yeah. This is my this is he knows this. is my actual project. We and he's been a. great friend in this.

>> I'll go Eugene what are you doing? Nothing. Great. pick something for us to. do and then we just drive. >> and we go have lunch or we don't or we. walk or we don't or we but we. >> but I I I now. >> create the space that I didn't. >> hoping that maybe something can come. into that space that couldn't otherwise. if I hadn't filled it with work. Does. that make sense? >> Yeah, it does. So So this is really. important. So um remember there's three. parts of happiness. >> Yeah. And so based on this and you know.

we've met before but we didn't like grow. up together. >> No. >> And we haven't played pickle ball. together. >> No we have not [laughter]. trying to hurt you. >> You know it's like [laughter]. but um [clears throat]. I would say of the three of the three. macronutrients of happiness you're a 10. on satisfaction. >> probably. Yes. >> You're probably a six on meaning. >> Oh. You think it's that low? No, it's. not low. You think six is high? >> I think so. Six is pretty moderate. It's.

pretty pretty normal. >> And I think you're a three on enjoyment. >> I think that you never learn how to. enjoy your life. And so if I were. working with you on this that see I want. to be better at living. I want to be. better at living. The problem is that. when I'm doing these things to be better. at living, I'm not putting points on the. board. I'm not making progress in my. life. That's what all strivvers think. Yeah. >> Right. And so the way to deal with this. is to understand how enjoyment works. So, I've you and I were working. together. We were talking about this. every week, right? That's okay. We got.

to have a an enjoyment plan. We're going. to have a strategic plan for enjoyment. because we need to reframe it kind of. like you do with getting good at this. >> It's so funny you say this cuz I never. remember I never learned it. I was. talking to my mom about this the other. day and I I said to her cuz my mom is. like the ultimate worker. Yeah. >> And I said, "Mom, have you noticed that. you work yourself to death, then you. rest, but you don't rest. You're just. exhausted.". >> And she was like, "Yeah, how else could. I be?" And I was like, "Well, I think. you and I both could practice. >> enjoying. >> before we're exhausted.". >> And she was like, "You do it and let me.

know how it goes and if it's good, I'll. join you." And so I'm on that journey. And she's not against it. She's just. like, "Hey, kid.". >> She's like, "Look, man. The life I. lived, I didn't have sort of the. luxuries you had. So work hard and I'll. I'm open to it, but but so carry on." So. you you work on and learning to enjoy. >> Yeah. So let me make a suggestion. Yeah. >> All right. There's a great book um that. was written by a German philosopher in. the middle of the 20th century named. Yseph Peeper. >> And Peeper, he wrote this book called. Leisure, the basis of culture. >> You're like, okay, so he's going to. write a whole book about chilling on the.

beach. No, no, no. Chilling on the beach. isn't leisure. >> That's that's that's a means kind of a. laziness. And and there's nothing wrong. with chilling on the beach from time to. time, but that's not actual leisure. Leisure you have to be excellent at. You. have to be excellent at leisure. >> I'm already in. Leisure is something. you're truly good at. >> This guy here might be an expert, but. carry on. >> Okay. That that that they don't pay you. for, >> but you're just really, really good at. And so, he talks about in categories of. spiritual depth, going deeper and deeper.

and deeper in your spiritual life. It's. developing your relationships with your. closest friends. It's developing. relationships at a real level where you. go out to dinner, it's like, "Go deeper, go home. Go deeper, go home." And it's. like, here's the first question, Trevor. What are you most afraid of? That's the first question because we're. going to we're going to learn about each. other here. That's leisure. That's. actual leisure. >> It's about getting an aesthetic sense. It's about going deep into the works of. >> So, it's not how's things been. No, no, that's nonsense. Who cares? It's like I.

don't care about the weather. I don't. care how the Jets did on Sunday. No, no, no, no. I want to know what you're. afraid of. I want to know you. That's. leisure. And that's what you that that. will create enormous strivvers can enjoy. their lives only when they understand. the truth about leisure. And when. they're like if you don't you're going. to be like yeah so so I I guess I'm a. vacation I got to go someplace and sit. on a beach bored. No you don't want to do that. I know you.

don't want to do that. That sounds. horrible to you, right? >> Yeah. And it's always been horrible. >> The sound of that has always been like. of it all. And it's like and and the. problem is that a lot of stvers who have. families, they're like total killjoys. because their kid, you know, their, you. know, their spouse is like, "Let's go to. the beach. Let's take the kids to the. beach." And you're like, "I don't, sweetheart. I can't tell you why, but I. hate it. >> I can't tell you why, but I hate it.". And that's because you in your heart. know that real leisure is something that.

that has incredible value. That creates. value for you and value for the. universe, but it doesn't pay you. So what? >> Yeah, that's not the point. Yeah, >> but the the enjoyment now Eugene Eugene, what's what would you say Eugene's. numbers are? >> So higher on enjoyment. Higher on. enjoyment. >> Um I don't know about the satisfaction. numbers because we actually haven't. you're you're I don't know as much about. your career. >> Mhm. >> I don't know about Yeah. So tell me. >> So I started off doing comedy, but. comedy introduced me to television to.

doing a bit of radio and now it's led me. to this path. And we've had guests here. that asked me, "So do you miss comedy?". And I'm like, I can't miss comedy cuz. I'm happy here. >> Like, I'm enjoying this. This this was. part of my visualization. Six, seven. years ago, I wrote this all down in a. book. I said, I want to do something and. I want to do it here and I want to earn. in this currency. Wrote it all down. So, when I'm here now, when someone askked. me, don't you miss the other thing. I'm. like, it doesn't it doesn't come into my. world. You know, when other comics ask. me, now that you're in New York, are you. going to go do a club? I'm like, I don't.

I'm not even thinking about it. I'm. thinking about eating pig's feet and. hang out with my friends. >> So I'm like, I don't think that far. And. we we've also had this conversation. I'm. like, no, no, this for me is the World. Cup of it all for now. This is what's. happening and I'm enjoying this. >> So tell me um what's the mission. statement of your life? >> I do not want to regret not doing. things. I for a while I forgot the philosophy. that my mom taught me that no matter who. says what and how uncomfortable it is.

you didn't break anywhere you must just. keep going other philosophy was you can. always start over you know try again and. try again and try again and there was a. time where besides the sbatical that I. took I just paused I stopped doing. things that made me happy and I started. doing things that made other people. happy and when I when I was in really. really a bad place I had lost my son. things were just horrible emotionally. those people that I tried to satisfy. were nowhere to be In fact, I would find. out when I came out of it that they were. the first people that will call me. unreliable. They will call me I don't.

show up for places that don't show up. for work and they didn't even bother. knowing what was wrong in the first. place. So, that alone freed me and gave. me the independence to just ride bikes. by myself. Uh go to shooting by myself. So, I learned to do these hobbies and. those side quests as my daughter calls. them you know by [clears throat] myself. >> So, you have low what we call pos. negative a effect. Negative effect is. intensity of negative emotions and half. the population is above average and half. the population is below average. Right? >> So you're you're low in negative effect.

and which is one of the reasons that you. can terrible things can happen to you. and you feel crummy about it but it. doesn't ruin your life. >> It doesn't ruin your life. >> Huge amount of resilience because of. this which is really great. I would say. that you've got what we call the. temperament of the cheerleader. high. positive ne high intensity positive. emotions and low intensity negative. emotions. It doesn't mean you don't feel. these particular things, but that's just. the functioning of the liyic system. >> I know it's going to work out. >> Yeah. You on the other hand are high. high positive emotion, high negative.

emotion. You feel things really. strongly. >> Oh yeah. >> You feel things strongly. That's the mad. scientist profile. >> Mad scientist. >> The mad scientist profile is like. everything is like. >> I love this laboratory. So you're the. cheerle I love and you're the mad. scientist, right? Okay. So there's two. other profiles which is low inensity. positive and high intensity negative. That's the poet. >> That seems rough. >> That's rough. That's rough. >> That's the poet. But those people Yeah. Those are the poets. >> And then there's low low amplitude. emotionality. Those are the judges.

>> Those are the judges. They're not. freaking out. >> Incredible. >> They they don't they don't they're not. freaking out. And this it's quarters of. the population, but you find people in. different in different lines of work. that tend to crowd into one of these. into these into these quadrants. >> So you find that CEOs and entrepreneurs, they tend to be mad scientists, >> right? Because they're just taking a. bite out of life. You just told me. you're taking a huge bite out of life. all the time. >> Yeah. >> That's like time's ticking, dude. Let's. do this. Right. And sometimes it sucks. and you understand that and you feel.

that deeply and and you got bad days, but you're going to keep going going. going. >> And you on the other hand, you're. actually able to stop. You're actually. able to stop doing things. Why? Because. you're a cheerleader. And the the. amplitude of your negative emotionality. is not going to impel you to be. constantly in motion doing something. You're actually and and that's that is. the happiest that is the happiest. profile. It doesn't mean crummy things. aren't going to happen to you like or. they do and you don't care. That's not. it at all. What it means is that you're. highly highly highly resilient. You're a.

highly resilient person. And now what. does this mean? This means that you can. bring I mean this is this is you're. perfect. You're perfect here. You're. you're it's interesting. Comics who are. who are cheerleaders. There's kind of. two kinds of comedians. They're. comedians who have really high intensity. negative emotion. And what they get is. they do a lot of emotional substitution. where they figured out when they were. little kids. I'm I pal around with Rain. Wilson a lot. Yeah. >> And he had a really really rough. childhood. He grew up 5 miles away from. me in Seattle and we're about the same.

age. We didn't know each other as kids, but we bonded over this, right, watching. the same shows on TV and, you know, fifth grade. And and and what they do. when they have a rough childhood, he. really struggled, is that they figure. out that they're smart and funny. And. when they make a joke, everybody else. laughs and then life feels better. >> That's the first kind of comic. They're. really good at with a straight face. making everybody else laugh. Then the. other kind make everybody laugh because. they they use emotional contagion. That's you. So you do this. You use.

emotional contagion. You laugh all the. time. >> Mhm. >> Which makes me laugh and makes me happy. >> Mhm. >> And there's a kind of comic that does. that. >> I can hear you coming. >> Yeah. Yeah. This is great. And there's. two kinds of comics like this. But you. have figured out you've you've you've. you've you've unlocked this success as. somebody who's going to bring happiness. to everybody else around you by sharing. your happiness. >> Mhm. >> And you've even done it by laughing and. being a comic who laughs a lot.

It's an amazing thing. >> It's crazy. >> This is the reading. >> It's an amazing thing. >> Before Before you go, what's your. quadrant? What's your. >> I'm a mad scientist. >> Oh, mad scientist. >> I was like I was there. >> Mad scientist. [laughter]. >> I was there. Scientistsite totally laboratory. And. what this means, by the way, that for. you, >> you don't need to worry so much about. raising your happiness. You need to. manage your unhappiness. >> You need to manage your unhappiness more. than raising. >> Can I tell you? No. Can I tell you this. is so crazy? Maybe it's be I'm.

>> I wrote down I remember in one of my. journals, I said, especially for me, I. said, I just need to worry about what I. do not like. >> Mhm. I I believe this for most people cuz I. go we do not know what we want. We only. remember what we enjoyed and then we. want to replicate it. But I was like for. myself for me me I went just find the. knots and just minus them minus them. minus cuz those things cuz I I I did not. know how much fun I would get have. getting to know you. I did not know how. much you would influence me when I first.

met you. So I'm always open to those. things where I'm like well you never. know what'll happen. It happen but the. knots hey yeah totally yeah. Can you try. this? Zulu thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There you are. See, [laughter]. you're in now. >> I got it. >> You're in. You are much closer than your. grandparents were. Instantly, you were. flawless there. >> The Holy Spirit just worked through me. >> It worked [laughter] straight through. you, my friend. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but this is. important because you know what? There's. all kinds of people who have really high. negative affect. There's all kinds of. destructive ways to manage your negative. affect.

>> Oh, okay. >> Drugs and alcohol classic way to manage. your lyic system, which is overactive on. the negative side. >> Okay. >> That's why people do that. You know, there's sort of two reasons that people. become, you know, addicted to alcohol, for example. It's boredom and anxiety. Oh, man. [snorts]. >> But for high achievers, it's always. anxiety because they're highly anxious. people, which means they have a really. active amigdala, >> and that's the only way they can like. calm down. >> That's a connection between your amydala. and your prefrontal cortex. So, you're. actually really stressed out, but you. don't know. >> Which is why two drinks you're like, h,

okay, I'm all right. >> And and so there's self- treating for. that. It's a very destructive way to. deal with negative a effect. Another is. workcoholism. just just just like this. I know how to do this. This I know how. to do. And they ruin their marriage. because they're trying to get away from. their negative affect by staying at the. office for the 14th hour before the. first hour with their kids. I'm guilty. I'm guilty. That's the problem. When I. was running the company, >> how do how do we work on these things as. people? Like how do you. >> you find better ways to manage your. negative affect? >> Yeah. So, how do but how do people even.

begin how do you even know that you are. doing it and then how do you begin to. work on it? >> You got to know yourself. you actually. have to do the work as they say, which. doesn't necessarily mean going, you. know, getting tangled up in the therapy. industrial complex. That's good for some. people, but it's not it's not necessary. for everybody. The reason I teach this. stuff is because I want people to think. about their lives. >> I want them to understand because you're. a laboratory. It's time to go experiment. in all these different ways. You've been. telling me about experiments that you're. doing already, like I'm going to get. better at living. What you're telling me. is that you're a living lab. >> And why? because you're treating these.

different things to be a more effective, happier person that can lift other. people up more effectively, which is a. beautiful thing. >> And so, what are two great ways to treat. negative a effect? Get deep more deeply. into your spiritual life, >> more deeply in your spiritual life. Hugely effective. >> You see that finger? >> And we recommend Catholicism by the way. So, and [laughter]. our father, >> I'm learning Zulu. And [laughter] uh and. the second is is really is is really. simple. It's run around and pick up.

heavy things. >> Ah that simple. >> It's that simple. >> Run around and pick up. >> heavy things. It's like exercise. Exercise. And so I, you know, I'm a mad. scientist. I have to treat my negative. effect. I start every day. I get up. I. do an hour in the gym and I go to mass. >> That's every day. >> Every day. >> Take care of the physical, take care of. the spiritual. >> because and and it's just self-defense. You know, it's not like I'm some great. guru sitting in a cave in the Himalayas. It's just I have super astronomically. high negative a effect. I'm at the 90th.

percentile in negative affect and I. don't want it to interfere with my life. And that's what I figured out by. studying this stuff when I left that. job. And that's what I've been doing for. the past seven years. And that's what I. want to bring to everybody. >> And you are this information. >> You are and you have and you continue. to. >> We We got to do this again. >> Thank you. This is so much fun. >> Thank you. I loved it. >> Did I pro Did I not promise you this as. well? I was not going to say this, but. on our way here, he was like, "You're. going to absolutely love this guy.". >> Do you, >> man? You're a wizard.

>> I love you, too, Eugene. >> Love you, too, man. >> No, man. Professor Brooks, thank you so. much. This has really been great. Thank. you so much. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. >> Fire, guys. Thank you, [clears throat]. >> man. You were the conversation we. needed. >> Thank you so much for watching the. episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on. to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friend still. let them suffer for a change. And don't. forget to engage with us in the. comments. Uh if you want to [music]. suggest a guest, maybe there's questions. you want, maybe there's ideas that you.

have, you can chat to us. We will. [music] read through the comments and. we'll get into it. Either way, I. appreciate you taking the time. Thank. you for hanging out with [music] us on. What Now. And remember, we do this for. you, so we would like to hear from you. Till next time. Thank you.