American Amnesia with Tressie McMillan Cottom | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

A lot of. politicians if using like the Pelosi or the Clinton. Okay. I really don't know what ordinary people are feeling, right? And for some reason, he's able to be tuned in on the culture war. No, that's a good of ways that might surprise me. He's chronically online. Because he is. Let me tell you what the through line is for me that. resolves, I would say about 80% of this for me. And I'm like, you kind of have spent a lot, a lot,

a lot of time thinking about this and kind of like holding that voter up in. like perverse fascination, like what's happening in there. And I do think your point gets at it, Trevor, which is I'm not sure that understand is the right word. I don't think you need to understand to act. Yeah. To be able to observe something accurately doesn't mean you diagnose it properly. Yes, that's what I mean. Right. He is the only politician out there right now who says a thing is a thing. Thank you.

That's what I mean. That doesn't need to be around. This is what I need. I came here to be on my side. No, I'm not saying what I'm actually articulate. This is what Tracy does. Brilliant. She articulates some ideas and puts it in the most crystal way possible. It's exactly this. This is what now. with Trevor Noah.

Please tell me, did you see the, Elon Musk, Trump, white House, Tesla sale, car sales? No, I didn't see that. Oh, yeah. Only thing I was missing was Vanna White. When was this? Yes. Yeah. So, literally, it's so funny because we've been talking about Elon. Musk on the podcast, all these things. Trump brought Elon Musk to the white House or Elon. Musk about Trump to the white House. Yeah, depending on how you want to. Yeah. Depending on where you think the power lies. Right. So Elon Musk is then Trump's day. They bring a Tesla and Trump's like I'm buying a Tesla.

with my own money and my and which guy is nobody. And the men did a full on infomercial. Someone took a picture of Trump's notes. He was he was handed the sales notes. Yeah. So the price of each car with self drive. This is embarrassing. And then like a little asterisks like terms and conditions at the bottom. Yeah, please. Self-drive is free. It just needs to be activated on all of the cause. This car cost this much. That one cost this much for low zero Apr for 36 months.

I'm like, this is the president of the United States. Yep. Shilling. Cause on the front. You know what it was for me. If Trump had even a modicum of panache, he would have brought it as more of a this is American engine. You adjust what's supposed to happen with Hugo? Yeah. I just wanted to take a moment to show you why America is great. Yeah. And, you know, Elon here is, like, just like, you know, just try and find it in South Africa. We used to say, like deceased, it means like, it's almost like find a way to like,

it's like just a little openness to what you're doing. Yeah, just a little mechanical, you know what I mean? Bringing, like, three cars, but then focus on Elon's one. No, no, no, this man's fallen for this low. Press one. Damn, Murphy. And then he gets guys out. This moment. You know, Trump, only Donald Trump, he gets in the car, he gets. So the car is just there because he's on the floor. The cars like, you know, the front of the white House. Like this is where this is, right. So the cause they're they pulled it up. Yeah.

And then they get him right. And Trump goes, first of all Trump's like, no, I can't drive. I'm not because I'm not allowed to drive. I want to be like can you drive? I don't think you can drive. I mean, he's like he's like, I would drive, but I can't. They don't lie. I mean, I didn't know. drive to drive to drive does this whole thing they get in the car. and then the president of the United States, the man who claims. to know with technology, economies, markets, all of it is going. He gets in the car, he looks at the instrument panel. and exclaims like somebody who has discovered a new world.

He's like, wow, it's all computer. guys. He says it's all computer. So he's never been in a Tesla. Yeah, but he doesn't say it's all digital. No, it's all computer. Like it's all computer. Yeah. They put computer in car and he shouts it out to us like we don't know. Yeah. He's like you know. Yeah, it's your computer where you look instead. All of you, all computer. It's a wow. This. Yep. That's the man with the nuclear codes for you.

Yeah, actually, I felt more calm. I was like, I actually don't mind if he had the nuclear codes. because it's a man coded computer. If the car's all computer, that man cannot launch anything. You know who's sitting somewhere right now going, are you kidding me? It is Hillary Clinton. Do you remember when they made fun of her? Because she couldn't work the soda machine in a candy or in a convenience? I don't remember where was it? You know, campaign trail? Yes. Campaign trail. So, you know, America, you know, being a regular American. So you go to, like, a 7-Eleven and do this.

And I always felt sorry for her. because I do think those machines are actually really complicated. Yeah. And I really felt a rare moment of deep empathy for Hillary. Rodham Clinton because she was like, she's got a cup, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it used to be a physical thing. You'd press that the lever. Well, that's not no more, you know that thing now. to spin your cup and it does and you mix and flavors and all that. And she was overwhelmed. And they acted like that woman had lost her mind. Yes.

Double standards. Yes. Now Donald Trump getting a car. But I think Trump is the only one. who gets the double standard, to be honest with you. I think every other politician gets nailed for the smallest things. Eating pizza with a knife and fork. Yeah. Who's the guy who's streamlined? Yeah, well, Howard Dean, Howard Dean for Howard Dean. It doesn't matter if you're a man or woman. Binders full of women, women, you name it, you get Trump has some. That's why they call him the Teflon Don. The man does things that no other person could do,

because there is no one who could maintain. the level of respect that he will still maintain from his people. After getting in a car and saying it's all computer. Yeah, I agree, if my six year old or seven year old said. that, I would be slightly disappointed because I'd go, but you know that. that's not how you say it. I would get them assessed. I'd be like, let me get you a six. Let's find out what's going on here. Yeah, because maybe you've seen the tabloid, you know, that's what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But also, you for me, it was also the. It's because of how Trump likes to paint himself as the pinnacle of, of evolution. You know, I don't know why I get I get hung up on these things. more than I do on him dismantling democracy, because that to me. is almost I don't know how to explain it, almost obvious. Like he's just doing it. He's doing it. And he said he's going to do tax and he's doing it. Yes, he said he's going to do it and then he's doing it. Yeah. But then there are the small elements where he gets exposed. for not being what he pretends to be in upper society.

Like when they asked him about immigration and he said, he said, we need to be bringing in experts into it. We got to get because H-1b is very good, H-1b one very good, very important. We got to bring we need more people in, like wine experts. I was like, you mean as sommeliers? Yeah. Like if you're an upper society, if you are a wine, you don't say a wine expert, right? Do you know what I mean? That's my quote from him. is when he said people are dying who have never died before.

Okay. But to be fair, as a black American, I love you. Let me tell you what. He's the number of times. I've heard an old black woman say hey down like they never died. Okay, well, not that one. Oh, that's my favorite thing to get. Which people are dying who have never died before. Yeah. That one. Yeah. We have a deep funeral culture where I'm from. And I was like, I could see that one popping off. Yeah, but think about Donald Trump. Are the moments like you? I'm a little obsessed with these moments where he's clearly revealed.

And yes, I think a lot about why didn't that work? Like, right, why didn't that work is a great story to me of Donald Trump. is, you know, he's New York's version of a country bumpkin. Yes. He's not a manhattanite. He was never accepted here. That's what a lot of his grudge is about. He learned, however, that if you just win enough, they will at least give you a ticket, right? He knows he's not invited because they like him. But you know, he learned that. And I think he just got still. And I hate all the psychological explanations. Why why do you why do you hate them? Oh, you know, because I just think it's very American.

Because you're a sociologist. Yes. That's part of it. This is absolutely professional envy. But because I can't just keep winning, I'm not sure they got all the cases, you know what I'm saying? But I also think it's like, very American of us who think. that, oh, it's only true if he really meant it. If there's something deep inside. Oh, okay. And I'm like, it doesn't matter whether he means it, it matters that he does it. And I'm like, you know, I don't really care. if it's because he's insecure or if he wants people who are insecure.

and they still don't do horrible things to people. So I think we can climb over a lie on psychology to excuse away bad behavior. Yeah. Especially in politics. I'm like, does it really matter if he really hates that trans people? Yeah. Like, why lot of people I've, I've heard people have the same argument around Kanye. Yeah. So they'll go yes. Yeah okay, fine. He's bipolar. Fine. But still he's doing the thing. There are many bipolar people who are not doing. That's exactly right. But the one, the one element I keep throwing out is yes,

but how many bipolar people are billionaires? Yes. It's the billionaire problem. I think he has a brain injury. He kind of went through a car, right, I had that oh. Do you ever heard through the wire house? Have you ever thought of it that way? He's like, you know, those athletes with CTE? Yeah. Like kill their wives. And it changes your whole person. Now I'm like, I never thought of that. My brain injury and bipolar and $1 billion. Oh my God, that's my chronic. Oh, that's your crazy. Yeah, I'm just interested. I think he's got TB, I believe. I never thought he displays all the the violence,

the yeah the unpredictability, but I don't, I don't know if. Yeah I, I'm conflicted on that because I often go. how much time should we spend trying to understand how people got. And I almost feel like maybe the two can have, but it's not binary. No. On the one hand, we can say it's good to understand it, because maybe if we understand it, we, we can try and figure out how to not let it happen again. Yeah. You know, but then on the other hand, to your point, we shouldn't be using it as an excuse. So my thing on that is, I think this might be. a division of labor problem, which I mean, like, does.

everybody need to understand it to condemn it. Right. The behavior. Okay. It may just be that, okay, there are people who will puzzle out. the how and the why and then the rest of us. I think it takes a little humility to say, hey, I don't do that. I don't know anything about it. But I do know that he said this thing that I find abhorrent. And so that's enough for me. I think the problem is there are too many people who feel like they can diagnose. So for them that I need to personally understand, oh yeah.

Yeah. Okay. The world is just too complicated for that. That's true. I think the thing I, I'm still fascinated by is the Trump voter. Oh yeah. I, I'm curious about the psychology of the. I and I know a bunch of Trump voters. I might be surprised you know, but because people tell me that truth, that's why people are like, what are you what are you fascinated by? What is it. that you either don't understand or are trying to understand or, you know, because I think that when he first came to power,

the liberal media establishment. spent a long time being like, oh, it's because of the economically disempowered. And then the data show that they weren't actually not mentally disempowered. It's that they're afraid. of being in these diverse neighborhoods with lots of immigrants. And it kind of showed that, well, that's. that's not the neighborhoods they were living in. Yeah. We've never been able to understand these people. And instead of them diminishing, it seems like there's more of them. and there's more consensus.

And I think there's lots of simple explanations for why they do what they do. But he understands that, yes. Right. So I want to understand the people he understands. Yeah. Because he understands his vote more than anybody else in the world. I agree. He knows he can say they are out of this world. He said I can say that. eating cats and dogs and my, my people are not going to care. And he and he knows what kind of like the what is it? The third rail is like Trump knows where not to go, right? Yeah. In ways that we act like he is reckless. He knows what an unfathomable degree.

But I have seen him. sometimes cake walked up to a line that you would assume he would cross. Yeah. And he doesn't. Right. He knew saying black jobs would resonate with like the foundational black. Americans on Twitter. And they were like, yeah, we know what he's talking about. Yeah. So he understands them. But many other people don't understand them, especially the Democrats, the people. saving democracy and trying to stave off fascism or like, you know, but it's not what they do. Well, they claim to be doing. That's what that's not what I said. I had personally. Okay, here's two things that I, I think of sometimes in that regard.

I'd love to hear how you see a Tracy, because I go. On the one hand, I don't think that his understanding is special. I'll put it. I'll put it there first. What I do think is he he is thriving in an environment. where everyone else spends more time. To your point, trying to understand things as opposed to just pointing them out. Yeah. You with me? Yes. So what I mean is Trump will go, the immigrants are coming in. Too many immigrants. Then the person who's running against him will spend more time going. We need to understand how, you know, people move around the globe.

and what migration patterns tell us about the stability of other. You've lost people. So what Trump does really well is he starts with the problem, and then he goes like, we'll figure out the solution. So let's think of it this way. If you were walking across the road. and a bus was coming towards you, bus was going to going to hit you, who would you prefer? The person who says, watch out, there's a truck. It's not a truck, it's a bus. Or the person who says to you,

if you excuse me, if you do not vacate the road as quickly. as possible, there may be a vehicle that might make contact with. And what I mean by that is like, there's some politicians I find. who spend a lot of time delicately trying to answer a question. Ask most politicians, so do you think, homelessness is bad in California? Well, you know, I think. before we talk about what we need to think about, you see, and then where he's winning is he's being blunt. But that's not that's not what I'm talking about.

That's what Black Jobs is. It's a short cut to say something. Yes, I think it's the way he's able to into it. What people's problems are being a man with no problems. Right. But he has them, by the way. No, he genuinely believes he has. That's what I do. Yeah, that's the difference. I have dying, but his diagnosis feels right. Yeah, right. That is what I think, by the way, has cut across class and across race. Yes. This is what like my great aunt is 91, 92 years old. And she goes, no, you are right. He is right.

There are a lot of people out there who shouldn't be here. Yes. So yeah, remove them. That seems like the most straightforward solution. Now, removing them means violating the Constitution. You know, like, as they are not having enough planes. I have no place right there. All types of complications to there. But remove them resonates deeply with a lot of people. for whom observing the problem is the diagnosis of the problem. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Remove problem. Yes. It's exactly that. The other one I think, that we take for granted,

especially if you spend all your time in America is this. And I love this because I go home so frequently now, be in South Africa. and then obviously I live in America, but I'll go home south. if I go back to go back to South Africa. The biggest thing I've noticed is we take for granted. that when you give people two choices, they will pick one of the two choices. Right. And then you will. spend a lot of time asking yourself why they've picked one of the two choices, but you're not asking yourself what having more choices would have revealed to you.

Yeah. Right. So let's, let's, let's think of it through the lens of sports. One of the things that I've been most fascinated by in the world of sports. is how fervently people support a team, and yet how nuanced they are in their ability to support another team. And what I mean by that is someone will go, I'm a Lakers fan. Who are you and the person to be like, I'm an Oklahoma City fan. They're like, okay, you cool? Yeah, because you have, all right. And you didn't lose because as long as you're not a Boston Celtics. That's right. As long as you're not a Celtics fan, we good.

Who are you? Oh, you're a Knicks fan. You're this fan. You're. And that's what happens in sports is. even when we talk about football in England, I'm a Liverpool fan. And then when we talk about who we go like as Man City. wins I mean, what's a man who's a man city Arsenal wins. You see it's a thing and it's Man United wins. It's even more now because it's like, okay, we're in the same region of the so. so what? I think sometimes people forget when they look at American politics is. they spend a lot of time going, why did these people choose this? But they don't realize that if there are two choices, they will choose one.

And because the parties themselves have become almost like, I don't know what the right word would be, but they they've almost gone. If you have the issue we don't have, it's oh yeah. And if you have the issue we don't have exclusive. Yeah about immigration. So we can that's my thing right. So so if I say to you, okay, who is a fan of saying whatever you want, who would you say a Republican. You see, okay. If I say it's you who's a fan of lower Texas Republicans. All right. If I said to you who's a fan of, free health care.

Democrat, you see, I don't think it should be like this. Politics should. you should not be able to pinpoint just like entire swaths or groups in it. You should be able to say, oh, these parties or these groups. or that said, oh, this, this governor believes that and that one doesn't believe this and this. And, you know, you see that graph? I'm sure you've seen it, you know, in all your work. Tressie if you look at the. the beautiful graph I once saw of the overlapping. dots of policy that Americans, lawmakers you see you've seen it.

Yes. Yeah. And it shows you how. a West Virginia Democrat. was further from the same issues as a New York Republican. They were like no, no. West Virginia Democrat was actually quite close to a West Virginia Republican. and New York Democrat was actually close to a New York Republican. It's just you were you were like you were inching. But now because. politics has all become national, I think you're giving people two choices. And so someone will go because most people are single issue.

ish voters, they'll go to your point, remove them. Who says remove them or only one party? All right. Well, I guess what I'm voting for. Yeah. Who says we keeping the coal jobs? Only one party. All right, I guess. Where where did you get on? I'm saying yes. We're going to continue this conversation. right after this short break. I would love, just as an experiment. I would love to see what would happen if you said to Americans, in fact,

The New York Times did this as a game once that people played, oh, your belly like what you actually cared about, let me tell you. Yeah. The consternation it created at the Daily Show. Yeah, was one of my greatest joys. The New York Times came out with a little quiz. Yeah. You remember this? I do, and the quiz said you. We're going to give you a list of issues and how you think they should be solved. At the end of it, we'll tell you who you should vote. Yeah. And it's extremely popular, but maybe not for all the right reasons.

Okay. Can I tell you the amount of people who had existential crisis, people looking at their phones that that that I'm not I'm not a Bernie fan at all. Well, what do you mean? I'm a I'm a Hillary. I'm a Hillary. I would never be a. I mean, people were shocked to realize that the person they support. doesn't actually support the issues or the policies that they would support. And that's what I mean by you've given people that option. So I would love to see what would happen. if you said to Americans, oh, that would be amazing.

I would just love to see what would happen if you said, if you just sit in America. Like, actually, we think America is polarized binary. But I would love to see what would happen if you gave this country. a chance to show how complex its tapestry is. I would love to see what we would learn about people. What are the views on immigration, what are they don't perceive politics. People don't be like, you chose this buffet. You chose that buffet. No no no. Ellicott, show me your politics. Yeah. And all of a sudden we start to get more granular. and we start to see things that we've never seen. Because I think that the Democrats have now.

been able to occupy this position of being more progressive on race. And I have not met more racist people. on the liberal white. people in New York who won't even send their kids to public school. Yeah, like just the and the really subtle. psychological warfare reminds me of the racism in England. You know, it's like so taken on, you know, a lot of the contours. of English class based. Right? Yeah. It's like, oh, I think for the same reason.

class became so important to the Democratic Party. because they are trying to serve the interests of a donor class. who has a lot of money. Yeah. While keeping the interest for their identity. We are progressive. We're liberals. aligned with working class, poor people, minority people, immigrants. So to reconcile those two things, right, think about who you have to be. to have both of those things exist for you simultaneously. You got to be delusional in kind of the same way that English people are, who will tell me to my face, we don't have racism here.

We do have class, but we don't have racism. As if these are two entirely distinct. But you do. You have to believe that when you have this, like, really structured, class system and a monarchy. That's right. And you have this really formal system of immigration. Right. And I think the Democrats have oddly kind. of a modified version of that for much of the same reasons. Their class politics right now do not align with their race politics. Yeah. And so you get a lot of people who make do with that.

for the same reason everybody went nuts over their results to the quiz. I mean, you think about who the typical New York Times reader is. Yes, the Daily Show employers for half. Oh, and what they realize is that they have accepted a lot of casual. racism and policy so that they could keep their class politics, which is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I absolutely think we should have more immigrants. We're a nation of immigrants. But I do need local control over my schools. Yes, because I bought a house in a neighborhood that depends.

upon my kids going and being associated with the kids who do that to the right. That's the Democrat deal. And one of the things that Donald Trump did really well, that they still don't have an answer for is he pointed out the hypocrisy of that. He's brilliant at that. And the way that you and I, I've always experienced it. because we were always the black people vis-a-vis the Democrats. So we knew it was hypocritical. But for him to pointed out and do it. so effectively is part of the reason why I think they are spinning out.

Yeah, he's done a great job at that. Oh yeah. That's why he's really good at saying to you, remember when he said, was that. one of like, ask Hillary and her friends about the taxes and where he goes? Well, they don't why don't why haven't they done it. Why haven't? He's like, they've had the power they could have done. They had the presidency. They had the Senate, they had the House. They didn't do it, folks. They said it's a problem, but they didn't do it. It's so interesting that you point that out, because it was. fascinating to see how OkCupid founders, we're going to have him on the podcast,

were able to see in the data. that liberal, proud liberal here. the most did not act. in according to what they said in terms of their views. We love that data, by the way, sociologists say, which we I'm talking about sometimes. we love the OkCupid data because our personal lives are. the only place left in this culture where we feel safe being racist. Class is elitist and ableist because we say, well, it's just our preference. I can't help who, you know gets me going. Yeah, that's biology. This has been my favorite thing is when they get asked.

this, people get asked this in random forums. They'll be like, cool. They'll be like cool white people, cool, cool, cool. And then someone, because things are so cool, someone will say to them, you know, have you ever. have you ever dated a black woman? And the and the person will be like, oh, I just don't think. they had any at my school, you know, I'm sure. And I love how they they do the thinking thing like, you wouldn't know people. You don't need to know. if you ask someone, have you data so you don't be like, yeah. Let me see. Let me think about oh cool. She who was I'm like, you know the answer, You know the answer.

Do you know what I'm saying? Yes. And I think there's like a there's like a level of honesty. that people aren't able to have, but when it's now going to be in their personal life. Oh, yes. They can't hide the thing anymore. That's right. That's why people went. Really? Do you guys remember this moment? I think it was around January 6th where there was, a group of young women, probably just internet based, but who admitted to using hinge.

and the apps to sort of like catfish Republican men. No, no, I didn't hear about it. Right. So there was this thing, they were go, okay, you know, you never going to be with somebody hot like me again, unless you change your politics. And so they would, like, pretend to be Republicans. to allow them to find out where they were on January 6th. They make the romantic match. Right. We helped me break this on. So, yes. So these women went online. Yes. Okay. And then and I think they're not you got to have that part okay.

Very very hot. So these were hot women who went online and they created profiles. Yes. And then they linked up with Republican also men. Yes. Because they are apparently. according to the data is, you know, they are at a disadvantage on. on apps, conservative men, they all complain about it. Nobody wants to date them. Okay then January 6th happens. And I think to started as someone said, they recognize the guy. they thought they saw on one of the apps once in the videos. Oh, so the women start going on going, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that guy seeing that guy.

And so they were catfishing them, pretending to be conservative or interested in conservative men. And then and that would go. Yeah. So where were you last week. Yeah. And it like out it like 3 or 4 people. Right. You know what I always say to my friends I always say this, I go to all of us, I go, guys, I don't know, like amongst us. I'm like, I don't know what our downfall will be, but I know it'll be a woman like, I don't care who you are. That's right. I don't care who you are like men, you know, our weakness is women.

And it just. You don't know when it comes. You don't know how it's going to happen. You don't. It might be your business. It might be your marriage. It might be your sports career. It might be your journalism. I don't know what it is. going to be, but like, that's why the Bible was so prophetic. You see, like Garden of Eden, they were very clear about that. Adam was never going to eat that apple. That meant no, no, no, Adam, you know why? Because my face. Let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. Why? Because, Adam, the way you know why they wrote the story like that? Because they knew they, like Adam, was stupid and simple. And he was just like. Yo, man, I'm not.

And then what happened? Eve, January 6th. Tim. You know, one question she was asked on observation. Like, why don't we eat the apple? And he's like, what? And because all yo, man, it's a prophetic story. Interesting reading. We in it. You think a man could have tricked them even eating mouthfuls about anything? Okay, let me ask. I want to go down. No, no, no, I want to ask you a question. Do you think a man. You think a man would have been able to shift Eve to eat that? But I think he answered me the apple and he lied about it. And now we read the book. Man, I'm not talking about blame.

I'm asking you if I'm lying. Thesis. I like lying, saying no, I'm going to say something sexist about women. Let's not do this. I say, I. mean, two women have the basic nature of being lying, though. I, I know a lot of women who are all about the male gaze. And if a man told them to eat an apple and told them not to, they would do. Yes, but but there's only one man going to. I would think that Adam was too stupid to think.

through the logic of hey, Apple could be good, right? Like to get to that? That's what I'm saying. I'm just saying, yeah. Now, I'm not sure that Eve convinced him so much. She was like, yeah, I'm gonna try to apple. He like, now without me, you ain't. Because I do think there's a basic nature here that we're talking about, you know? So I think that my way kind of came up. I'll agree with that. But I wanted to say something about this app experiment that the women did. Yeah. I don't think that would happen in 2025. because I'm noticing a lot of women get in conservative.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm seeing it all over my TikTok, my Instagram name. I think we're on similar. Oh, we think on the same algorithm I think so, yeah. Yeah. Like the thing about skinning us, how we should dress about being feminine. and being kind of conservative into conservatism. I'm seeing women who were like a few years ago, I considered pretty progressive, becoming more about like, oh, I want only biological women in certain. What is that about dress?

Oh, I think that we talk about it economic anxiety. You guys are talking about that, and I agree, I think we totally miss diagnosed like that whole economic anxiety argument. And the case with women I think is a perfect. example of how we misdiagnosed it. Yes, people are anxious. That doesn't mean that they should be anxious. What people are responding to is perceived loss, not real loss. That's why you like. What do you mean you're rich? You're not economically anxious, you know. It's just not real.

Yeah, it's made up status anxiety. We call it economic anxiety. So you start seeing status anxiety though. That's where I think the gender piece becomes really prevalent. Because what I am seeing happen, same women in my life. who were all pussy headed out about. Yeah. All right, all right. Don't put your head back. And they were like, we gotta go head to head on the pantsuit for Hillary, right? And I'm way I'm wet. And today you know who they are with.

Dude in a fleece vest and khakis. It's like they looked at. I think they are looking accurately at a post-roe reality. A world where truly, the United States government is the most powerful force. in the world still, and it has declared war on women. Yeah. Go back home. We want you out of work. We want you out of schools. Too much, too far, too fast. And I think you look at that and you go, I'm hitching myself. Yeah. To the thing that provides some cover.

Right. And I think that performing conservatism, even if it's just in how you look, everybody's getting a haircut now. I said the natural hair movement, a liberal haircut, by the way, to the conservative haircut. Haircut? What's a liberal? How you know it when you you know, when you see it, honestly, you will. Yeah. You know when you say also with black women, the natural hair movement I think is pretty much like done. folks are going back to the blowout relaxer relaxers.

That's why they were mad when the signs came out. is that relaxers might be causing cancer. Yeah. Because the transition had started. And I think it's the same reason, the same thing for black women, by the way, we have been at the forefront of like economic progress for women. That sort of generational forefront. Right. Black women, women writ large, outpacing men in education, going to college. We were almost at parity in the most male fields, law and medicine. Right. This is that same for black women. All women. All women okay. Yeah.

Black women have already exceeded black men. But white women were now coming for it. I mean, we were almost at parity. And now you see this like hostile. sort of response to women. And I think you start going, if nothing else, let me look the part. And I'm not sure any of that's conscious. I think as you look around and the esthetics, for example, of the Trump administration are really clear. Yeah, blond, blond, as blond as you can get it. And I think that you take that as a cue for this is what we do now.

if you want a little bit of safety okay. So this is what I think about I don't think men are safe like the way. I was maybe. And maybe it's just like the way I was raised was what. I have your own money. Like, what do you mean help me. You mean like men are dangerous or. You mean men are not saying men are dangerous. But that. But then I see that's what I say. Oh you mean they're not. It's not a financial. Okay. Go go go go on. My mind was like my grandma. Yeah. My mom was always like, we spent too much on education for you to become a stay at home mother. And then my dad, like, don't do you had choice.

But there's this argument, okay? My mom's like, we invested in these girls. That's right. And part of that is a fear of what a man will do to you. Right? If a he dies or he leaves you. So you always need to have your own means. And my mom's like, even if you're just selling cakes. and you're at home and you'll just have a like, have you a little money? Yeah. But now I'm seeing a lot of women and I'm my circle is a lot of women of color. who are like, I want to be a stay at home girlfriend. Stay at home wife. I want a soft like I just say, I don't want to, I don't girlfriend. No, but I see more on of their.

pushes my buttons and I way you are kind of way. Tell me more. What is a girlfriend? A stay at home. wife is only allowed to be a stay at home wife with the benefits of it. However, marginal benefits are because the state says he owes you the money. Yeah, if you a girlfriend. Okay, I see who is gonna make the sucker give you the money. So that's what I'm saying. Like, people are like, I'll even sell play house. I see this young girl and I feel like I'm turning into an auntie,

but I see these young girls and I'm like, who raise you? Oh, man, I love. I never thought I would see the day when Tressie McMillan Carter. would be sitting in front of me saying, get the bag, lady, get the bad name. At least you know what the bad grandmas did for you. to be able to get that bag, you know? Is she put up with or the bag to be procured. It's become meme. There's a meme now, like, oh, I wish we could go back and tell those women white,

women and say, like, what were you thinking? Why would you fight for us to have the right to work? I hate work, but I'll right. I see this in a different way as well. In South Africa, for instance. Yeah, there are a lot of people now in South Africa who go, maybe apartheid. wasn't that bad because at least then there was no unemployment in apartheid. The electricity was fine. And and then I'll say this, I wouldn't say to women because I wasn't. a woman, that I wasn't even around then, but still I go, yeah, but remember, it is easy to think that the things worked.

well when the system was only designed to benefit a few, because then it was working well for a few. So in South Africa, yeah, we had electricity because we only had to give it to 5% of the population. Yes, the schools were good for 5% of the population. Yes, there was no unemployment because people were essentially slaves. So yeah, if you want to go, you're forgetting that things worked, but. you don't, including who they worked for and how bad it was for everyone else. Yes, exactly. Right. I am curious about like and I think about this about myself.

and like younger women that I'm around, why hasn't there been more resistance. wise and like, people are surprised when they look at the the votes. How many women voted. for Trump in spite of the Roe v Wade thing or just the indifference? Yeah, you're not seeing women marching in the streets about. many of the things happening is feels like we've just been like, I can't do it. What's that about? I think the reality of progress and it is, you know, it's counterintuitive, but we see this with any kind of form of progress.

So the example I like to use is like the classic immigrant story. in this country is the parents who immigrate to this country. will always be foreign to their children who benefited from it. Right? They will never truly understand each other. Right. There are millions of books written about that very story. That's just the immigrant story. Why? Because what it took to be desperate enough to leave your home country. Yeah, to go to the United States. America means you will never be able to fully appreciate or understand.

the benefits of it. So you do it for your children who will understand the benefits of it, but will never understand what it took to be desperate enough to migrate. Yeah, the the conundrum of social progress is what. you have is a generation of women who benefited from feminism, but never experience what made feminism necessary. Right. We think and it's not to say that it is not true that, but we think the sort of like interpersonal bias and violence.

we experience at work or school or whatever is as bad as it can be, when really as bad as it can be, is being fundamentally, according to the state, an appendage of your husband not having a bank account? That's right. That's actually as bad as it can be. But for you, that's like this vague notion. It's very abstract, right? It's very abstract. Right. And I think, knowing and understanding what made you possible. might be fundamentally impossible.

So I'm not, I don't want to throw older women under the bus. because I think we do that too much. Yeah. Did they not articulate enough to us? Who wants to remember what brought you here? Like, I like the amnesia again. Another part of the immigrant story is. how many children of immigrants have said, oh, my parents never talked about this. No, they wouldn't even use a native language. Yeah, I don't know any of the stories that brought me food I didn't like. Yeah. It's just like, yeah, same. Yeah, they survived it. I've been working on this memoir for a couple years.

now, and I promise of my publishers listening, I'm almost finished. I swear to you. I know it sounds like I'm so am I. We're so close. And one of the things that comes up like. And again, nothing unique about this, but like, I don't know anything. as it turned out about my grandmother, who I thought I'd known my whole life, like, the things we don't talk about are huge. things we don't talk about is probably more than the things we do talk about. And so there's a like there's this current, you know, there's. this ongoing generational amnesia when you have suffered in any kind of way.

Like, I just don't think people want to sit around the dinner table and talk. about the beating that finally broke them or the, the, you know, the sexual violence that finally pushed them to leave. Husband. Right. People just don't want to talk about that. And so it becomes real easy for you not to inherit the violent part of the story. And all you inherit is. Yeah, but she didn't have to go out to no job. Yeah. She would have loved to have gone out to a job. Yeah.

She was begging to go out to a job. Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this. You know, when you talk about that, I can't help. but think about how it applies. to many of the moments of progress that countries have made. And society has made. Because everything you just said now. Could completely be applicable to vaccines, let's say.

Oh yeah, that's right. Lutely. Yeah. Because everyone who is alive now with no polio, no measles, no anything, you cannot appreciate a vaccine because you do not live in a world. where you are seeing the effects of not having the vaccine. So funny, because, both my maternal and paternal line, I think particular about my paternal line. My grandmother had a set of kids before my dad and his two brothers. And they kind of always existed in the family imagination. And then when I grew up, I realized that they were pretty old.

When my dad was like three and seven, they died in infant hood and early. childhood and from, like, things that I had never dies from now. Yes. And when I think of especially. my paternal grandmother, she never got over that grief. And so I think we we live in the shadow of a lot of grief in my family. Like the grief I think of that particular event. Those are just killer events. And so I said, I said, look, when I hear about anti-vax stuff, I get personally triggered because being the child.

of two Nigerian immigrants, I'm actually not that. far away from a world where there are women who would. But you, your child gets an MLR, right? So you say thank you Jesus. That's right. Because you know what it means, right? Yeah. You know what I mean? So that thing about the distance and vaccines, I think there's some populations who, like, are a bit closer. But for your average person in the West, they don't know if somebody has nine or, you know, meningitis like some people take the meningitis vaccine for granted now. But I remember when it was a death sentence. Yeah. You know, I think about this in, in all aspects of life,

the family is a great example, because America has had such an impeccable track record flying. Yeah. People now take for granted the apparatus that has gone into making sure. that America has such an impeccable record while flying people. You don't understand how many planes are flying around all the time. Land and taking of it. I mean, these are like decisions and some of it is, made. Yeah. And and then people go, well, you got the FAA,

we need to and you and you go, no, you say that. because you don't understand that you're experiencing its benefits. That's right. You know, if you've only been in the time of something existing, it is hard for you. to imagine a time before it existed and how much better life has gotten. And so then you don't think that it's meaningful anymore? That's right. Yeah. We talk about like the the shadow state, which I find. I have found that the way the GOP, you know, headed by Trump, but not just Trump in this instance talk about, you know, the deep state,

you know, the scary deep state deep state coming for you. You know, sociologists. have this thing like the shadow state, which is our government function. So well for such a complex, large population. and most of that is invisible to the average American poor people. See, because they got to go to court. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yes. But everybody else water just shows up. Trash just rolls out like. Yeah. So what we are talking about here is like a sort of like.

politics, a disease of like privilege. Right. That the state works so well. Yes. It's been so stable which in the like. global scheme of things really is phenomenal. Yep. And it works so well for a diverse, far flung population that a huge cross-section of people. who don't have a ton in common any other way. can be convinced that the state is unnecessary. Yes.

And that in fact, the only way this is working. is that there's a secret deep state. Right. But know what they mean by the deep state is the functioning government. Your checks arrive on time. Right. And so what they think the government is, is that customer service number they call. where admittedly, you might get a sister who don't want to talk to you for. a minute, but what they do not see is like that. You are just like a small handful of exceptions. that didn't fit into the bureaucratic majority that time.

your stuff got lost, but the vast majority of people's did not. Most people stuff at the DMV actually go smoothly. Believe it or not, we love to hate. On the DMV. I wrote a piece defending the DMV once, and the number of people. who wrote me letters to tell me their personal stories. I was one of that day. I figured. I thought what sounded like it was like you had a deer who's just like, no, I'm saying if you have a problem with the DMV, you're like .01 percent. Yeah, but you take for granted that the whole population is there.

So the point on oh 1% is huge. Yeah, exactly. That's what people don't get. They don't get this about airports. They don't get this about the government. They don't get this about medicine. They don't get this about everything is it's almost impossible to understand. what you have if you weren't around for when you didn't have it. Yep. And so, like, I'll try and say this to my younger siblings with like, phones. and technology and all this. I remember saying to my brother ones, I said, you know. what's crazy is in your life, you've never waited.

And he said, what do you mean? I said, your generation does not know the concept of waiting for something. And he's like, what do you mean? Should I wait all the time? I said, no, you know, I said, I used to stand in a line. at any. number of places that sound like a hundred years ago. He goes, I stand in line at a post office. That's right. And all I could do, my only entertainment was to look at the back. of the head of the person in front of me. That was it. There was no what's happening in the news. There was no music. There was no video game. There was no sending messages.

No, I stood there, yeah. And I looked at the back of their head for anything. from 10 to 15 minutes, and that was it. I would sit and wait for a bus to show up. I didn't know where it was. I didn't know what was coming. I just stood there and I would judge generally by how many people were with me, whether or not I had made the right choice in the timing. If there was no one, I'd be like, Maybe I'm ahead of them, or maybe they've left me. Yeah, and if there's a bunch, okay, now we're not the problem. The bus is the problem. But I'm trying to explain this to him.

And I said to him, and by the way, he wasn't even being a brat. We were just discussing it as like a fun thing. And I was like, man, it's amazing how you can't you can't even a preciate that. You don't wait because you've always, never waited. Yeah. You know, you know why things are not happening or happening. You know where your friend is. Do you remember just waiting for your friend somewhere? This was the thing I was thinking about. I and I know this is a generational thing. And again, I really don't want to turn into an auntie, but, you know, destiny, you know,

I say to somebody, you know, it used to be a thing. that I'm going to meet you somewhere at 2:00. I would just see you at 2:00. Yes. Yeah. Now you have to share your location. Yeah. They want to know when you've left the house. They want to know when I've gotten in the car. They want to know how far away I am, where I'm going to pot it. Just all of this constant interaction. Mostly because the idea to your point of waiting is like, counterintuitive. Yeah. Everything. I'm like, I'm just going to see you at two. I like I'll get there, I get there, we'll see each other it two and it'll be fine.

But I found that the level of anxiety that younger people. have about not knowing your precise. Yeah. Movement. Have you left location. Yeah. I can't imagine a kid don't want to be one of these people, but I cannot imagine that our brains have developed fast enough for that. to be okay. Not with us. Yeah, it's just not an 11 year old asked me recently, what age was I when I got my first phone? My smartphone, and I said, what do you mean, honey?

How young? With the smartphone went in, I was like 25. What are you saying? Just like, yeah, I bet you got yours when you were 13. And I was like 13. I think we just got an call waiting. That's. And we ran it into the ground. That is hilarious. Right. And yet you can't fathom the idea because that was her point, by the way. She was like, I don't have anything to do. when we're in the car because I don't have a smartphone. Yeah. So you look out the window. like I looked out the window for 20 years.

Yeah. But the concept and I just don't think the brains are prepared. And I do think that a lot of what we see. at sort of a societal scale is that chronic anxiety. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, everything should happen. I should be able to predict everything. You know, the total fear of any risk missing the bus. No big deal. You missed it. You waited for the next one. Now it would be considered like some major. I've seen people risk limbs being chopped off. Amputated by the train. Yeah, because they don't want to miss it.

As if another one is. It could not be coming in five minutes. Yeah. And the time they're saving is so that they can get home and scroll on TikTok. Yeah. It's not like when they get. when they get home, they've got five more minutes to solve, you know, like some crazy equation that'll solve the universe. Yeah. No, they are rushing five minute, just five minutes faster to get somewhere. Where are they going to then waste that time doing a thing. And the reason I say waste is because it's not like what they want to be doing. But as as we rep Tracy, I want to know from you if like as a sociologist, as someone who's looked at societies and nations and the way things work,

do you. think that means the unfortunate ultimate conclusion is for, let's say, America and many parts of the world, as we're seeing now, is the unfortunate conclusion that people will only appreciated. when it now breaks down for their generation. So will Americans only appreciate democracy? Yeah. When Trump has completely obliterated it? Will people only appreciate free speech when it's been ripped away? Will women. appreciate the advances that were made by the women when they no longer have it?

I am so sorry to say this like I am so sorry. you asked me this question because I have an answer. I've thought about it so much and it is not a good or fun answer. But yes, I'm not. I don't want to be dystopian. I actually don't think it'll be like, you know, I don't think. it'll be the type of revolution that maybe some of us imagine and hope for. And I don't think it is like a complete, you know, reversal of rights. But I do think it will take the first hand experience.

of the loss of a functioning bureaucratic state. The type of security I don't think we understand. how much like emotional security we get from knowing the government works. From not having to worry about where the water is coming for. not having to worry about whether when you call 911. Oh is somebody coming and can I say something. Yeah. I've for some reason every American city I've lived. in, I've been there at a crucial catastrophic event.

So I was in New York during Covid. I was in Austin, Texas, when the first snowstorm happened. that collapsed the grid. Yeah, right. So we had no power. Yeah. And had this one year old child and it was freezing and no help came, right? People even died. And I knew that those people that use that fireplace. Yeah, yeah. And then I also was in LA during the fires. Oh, we should maybe quarantine. Yes. Oh I'm the problem I. No, no I'm the problem. Oh it's all it's me.

But like la during the fires and it's like you're using this app. actually which is telling you. where all the fires are and how contain the access, etc.. And that's when you kind of realize that you're like, oh, this is teetering on the edge, especially in Texas. Yes. When it was like, oh, this is a grid that's not connected to the grid. Yeah. This is a state with no income tax. Only has property taxes. So it's not like there's like volume as income to like help people. It was a Republican utopia. Yeah. And you're like I think that's already what happened in North Carolina.

This stuff is already happening. We're having these events that are showing you. if America gets into like a real disaster. That's right. It's going to fall apart very quickly. And like the LA fires was the moment I was like, oh, there wasn't enough water, but this guy could get a private fire service to protect his malls. Yeah. That's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah he's homes. But I was like, yeah, people can see it firsthand. The American sickness, though, is that they would look at that story and go, the solution isn't more taxes. The solution for me is I need to become that rich guy.

Yeah, I want to be rich. That's the American disease that we look at that. and what we diagnose again back to like the wrong diagnosis. It was like, oh, if I want the state to work for me, I just better become rich. Now, everybody cannot, of course, be rich, which is why we created governments. But what we don't understand, I think Texas is a great example of this. Texas is like again, one of these, you know, utopian political realities for. people who believe in like the core tenets of the GOP's political platform.

But it only works because everybody around them is not a Republican utopia. Wow. Yeah. You need the government to be somewhere. And so you can only be a state like Florida. You can only be a state like Texas that says, we don't use a federal government. See us, you know, big f you to to, the federal government. Well, yeah, you know that because all of the rest of us, however, fund it. and keep it going and you draw from it and you still need it, right? People learned that during Covid. We saw it firsthand.

The thing about this country is our need for ongoing amnesia, about how vulnerable we are, keeps us from doing the right diagnosis. Yeah, you look at that and go, the rich guy was able to get private firefighters. And you go, and I guarantee he's going to be mayor. I think he's going to run again for mayor. And people like, oh, he needs to be our mayor because. Oh, yeah, yeah, he kept his mold private. He's going to say to you, because, you see, I was able to do this,

I'll do this for you. And that's how Trump won, by the way, that is exact. Trump won by saying, look at what I've done with my life. Yeah, I will do this for your life. And then we go back there. Yeah. Well all right. Thanks y'all. That really was great. That's a that gave me a lot to think about. Thank you. What now with Trevor Noah. is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions.