Adam Grant Gives Trevor An Intellectual Wedgie! - What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

That's the only way I get back into like. sort of shape is I I have to put weights. next to my bed. That's literally what. I'll do. >> Do you go to sleep in your gym clothes, too? >> No, no, no, no. Cuz you you This is. actually a myth. You don't need gym. clothes to work out. This is a complete. fallacy. You can do it naked. It works. just as well. In fact, it makes me feel. like I'm like in like ancient Greece or. something. Yeah. Yeah, there's like a. moment where you lift a weight above. your head and you're completely naked. and you're just like, "Yes, I am. Spartacus.".

This is What Now with Trevor Noah. [Music]. >> It's fun having you. Welcome. Welcome to. the podcast. >> I'm excited to be here. >> Yeah, man. I'm really happy to have you. here because like like I I love how you. think, but then I also love the science. behind how you think. Some people know. your books or your TED talks, but what.

I've noticed is some people know you as. like they think of you as a as a. researcher. They go, "That's what that. guy does." And then some people think of. you as as really a social scientist and. a psychologist and somebody who looks at. human interactions. How would you define what you actually. do? >> I I mean, I guess I'd say I'm an. organizational psychologist. >> Okay. And I'm interested in how we can. improve the quality of our lives at work. and beyond. >> Is it just like business organizations. or any like how how big does an. organization get before it's no longer.

an organization? >> I think if it's fewer than two people, it's definitely not an organization. >> So it's the Lord's rules basically. >> Maybe. >> Yeah. Cuz he said that as well. He said, "What? When three or more gathered in my. name, then I'm in their presence.". That's. >> I'm going to take your word for it. >> Yeah. Well, >> I haven't had any conversations with the. Lord, so. >> Well, it's in the Bible. It's in the. That's one of my favorite like lines in. the Bible. I like that the Lord is like, "Look, man, there's like two of you. You. should probably go to church. If there's. three of you, I'll come to you.". >> Fascinating. I didn't know there was a. biblical theory of team size or.

gathering. >> Actually, maybe then let me let me start. with asking you that. Is there a science. behind the number of people who come. together then increasing their ability. to connect with something more powerful. or spiritual? >> Well, thinking out loud, there there a. couple things that come to mind. Yeah. The first one is I'm thinking of. Durkheim, the the founding father of. sociology who wrote about collective. effervescence, which is a lot of. syllables for the feeling of energy and. purpose that you have when you come. together in a group for something larger. than yourself.

>> Say that again. The feeling of. >> energy and purpose. >> that you have when coming together. collectively in a group for the same. reason though. >> Yes. With a with a common goal. >> Oh, I like this. Wait, is this So, is. this the same as like Roman soldiers. being able to march further when they. were marching together? possibly. >> Okay. And do we know why that is? >> I think we know we know a little bit. There's there's actually a hilarious. experiment where people had to sing O. Canada uh either in unison or not and. then they ended up cooperating more. afterward if they had been in tune.

together. >> Oh man. Now then it seems like national. anthems have a purpose in a weird way. >> They might like beyond just I thought it. was just like a love song to the. country. Well, I mean, I think you made. the case that Sweet Caroline is better. than our national anthem at bringing. people together. >> I think it is. I think. >> hysterical, by the way. >> Thank you very much. I think it's I. think it's one of the uh one of the. greatest I actually think that's what we. should do. I think every country should. change its national anthem every few. years just to like keep it fresh and. keep it like keep up with the times and. the vibes, you know what I mean? And.

then, you know, like Yeah. Like Sweet. Caroline could have been a national. anthem, I think, for a while, you know? >> How would you choose? You just see what. people like. It's like how do they. choose the charts? >> That's This would be so much fun. >> Yeah. I mean, we just listen to the. music and then we go like, "All right, hey, new national anthem, you know? It's. like, all right, Taylor Swift has a. great one and then Beyonce has another. great one." And then we just like go. down a list and we choose like amazing. songs. Sometimes you unear them from way. back in the day. You know, >> what I love about this is then you would. get people a little bit more comfortable.

with changing old traditions and then it. wouldn't be a far cry to say we should. have a new constitutional convention. Damn, you just took it there. >> I mean, >> I don't touch the Constitution. Let me. tell you something. Now, Adam Grant, I. want you to know you don't bring that to. my podcast. The Constitution is the way. the Constitution was, and it'll always. will be. All right? Anyone else who's. watching this, you know that I believe. in the Constitution, and it stays the. way it should, especially all those. amendments. You don't change those. amendments. How dare you? You you you're.

a big fan of change. I mean I I think. that the world changes and we have a. choice about whether we want to evolve. with it or whether we want to become. obsolete. >> Okay. So let's let's try climb this. mountain together. Somebody who is. pro-change is how I assume you are you. know from reading you listening to you. etc. >> Depends on the change. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. So then let's start. with that. When do you or when do you. think someone should change their mind? Because on like I always go like you.

should always be willing to change. And. for me personally as Trevor I go I. always assume that I could be wrong. It. doesn't matter what it is. I just always. assume that I could be wrong and then I. go from there including about that. Yeah. Okay. I think that change is not. always good. Right. We have to be clear. about that. Um sometimes it backfires. Sometimes it has unintended. consequences. We're living with a lot of. them right now. And your show is about. that in some ways. >> Right. Yeah. I think I think the reasons. for change are really important. So, a.

lot of people change to gain social. approval and. plump. >> Oh, wow. >> Well, I saw that coming and I couldn't. jump quick enough. >> Sorry about Well, it's. >> And it's right out of shot. >> But it's out of shot. Sorry. >> That's hilarious. >> You You're going to just have to leave. it for now. I guess. >> you deal with this change. You got to. run with this metaphor here. >> It's uh Yeah. Not all change is good. >> That's what you were saying, right? >> I Maybe that. >> I didn't know you bring props. I didn't. know you bring props to your interviews. >> You brought the prop. >> That's uh that's really well played.

>> Thank you. >> So So going back No, no. So going back. um. >> why do you change? >> Yeah. Why why do you change or when do. you know that you should change? >> I think for me the starting point is to. say most people base what they want to. what they want to change and what what. they want to keep constant on their. identity. and their identity is a set of. beliefs about what's true. >> I think that's a mistake. I think who. you are is not a question of what you. believe. It's a question of what you. value. So, not what are your truths, but.

rather what are your principles? >> What are your truths? What are your. Wait, wait, wait, forgive me. It sounds. like the same thing. Help me break it. down. >> So, um let's uh let's let's actually. let's talk about you, Trevor. Let's talk. about one of your core beliefs. Give me. a policy that you think is necessary or. effective. >> that is necessary. >> or effective. >> or effective or that we should have that. fairness. Okay. >> The way taxes um are doowled out for. people's education in America for.

children's education I don't think. should be by zip code. I think somebody. should try and find an algorithm or like. a system that basically just breaks it. up equally and every school gets the. same money because otherwise people have. created little little enclaves where the. money ends up. And so even though it's a. public school and everyone's proud of. that, oh my child goes to a public. school, you've made it a private school. by locking it into the zip code where. the school accepts people from. Do you. know what I mean? So for me, that policy. I would change. I would go, no, we find. a system where the money all comes.

together and then it just gets like. spread out equally and then every school. is getting the same amount of resources. as opposed to schools getting money. based on who's the richest people who. live near it. >> Okay, good. So you have a belief that. equal distribution of resources to. schools is a good idea. >> Yes. I think it's a better idea than. what than what it is now. >> Now what's the value behind that? Why do. you want to do that? >> I don't even think about people being. smarter. I don't even think I just think. if if everybody has access to a thing, then they're more likely to be in sync. with each other because in a way we've.

given them all access to O Canada as an. education system and so they're more. likely to feel like they are together. when they go out into the world. >> Okay. So the value you're describing is. community, solidarity, belonging. >> That's your value. >> Okay. Now your belief is you have a. particular way of getting us there. Yes. >> That might or might not be true. >> That is true. >> And so if you stay open to questioning. the belief, you're interested in. whatever is the best policy to serve. your value. >> Oh. >> And that allows you to learn and change.

>> Okay. >> But don't change the value. >> No. No. This makes a lot of sense. because I should be open to the idea. that equally distributing the thing is. wrong. >> Yeah. Exactly. But I still wish to. create a society where people are. generous and connected and living in a. community. >> Nailed it. Look at that. >> Ah, I like this. You should you should. teach. >> I mean, >> you should you should go to a university. and like be a professor or something. >> I I might need a recommendation from. you. I'll be like, can I get a Trevor. reference for that job? >> You know, I So, I I've always wondered. this about you. when when you have this.

much data in your head and this much. science, does it make it harder to move. through the world with people who are. operating completely from like um like I. don't want to say flawed, but what's the. biggest thing that what's like your pet. peeve when you talk to people? >> Astrology. >> H. astrology. You don't believe in. astrology. >> I mean technically I shouldn't believe. or disbelieve, right? I have a set of. values. >> You don't Wow. around scientific inquiry.

and I think the science casts a lot of. doubt on it. Okay, look, okay, I'm I'm. skeptical of astrology, right? But I'm a. Pisces, so that's my nature. Do you know. what I mean? But I'm saying like you. Okay, so let's let's get into. >> Are you really a Pisces? >> Yeah, I really am. >> Do you think that has any meaning? >> Um, okay. So this is this is the thing. Do I believe in astrology? No. I I have. this romantic idea that there is a. possibility that something did affect. people, but I don't necessarily know. what it is. Maybe it's January people.

Maybe we're like giving it star signs, but I keep thinking like maybe if you're. born at the end of the year, you have a. different vibe because like you're born. around like end of the year like people. have a different vibe at the end of the. year, right? And maybe you live a. different life because you know I think. like Malcolm Gladwell did like some of. that work. It's like you also get into. the schooling system at a different. time. So maybe you act different, you. feel different, you are different. So. maybe our star signs are just like a woo. woo way of tapping into something that. might be scientific. Now, do I believe. it tells you what's going to happen in.

the next month? No, I don't. But I go. like, "Ooh, there's something here." So. interesting to hear you talk about it. So I think you're you're talking about. it like a scientist would. And what. drives me crazy about people's stances. on astrology is they come in as. preachers, not scientists. >> Okay. Okay. So what what separates a a. preacher from a scientist? >> So a preacher is basically proitizing. their existing views. >> Mhm. >> And a scientist is trying to find the. truth, not spread it.

>> Okay. So wait, I I've heard you talk a. little bit about this before. Let's. let's break down some. So there's. preachers, there are politicians, and. then there is. >> prosecutors. >> Prosecutors. Okay. Okay. Okay. So. preachers, you're going out there. You're basically saying this is what I. believe in, and everyone should believe. in it with me. Okay. Politicians. >> In politician mode, basically you're. saying, uh, I'm not even going to bother. to listen to you unless you already. agree with what I think. >> Oh, damn. Okay. And then prosecutor.

>> Prosecutor is my biggest problem. So, this is what happens whenever someone. tries to give me a horoscope is I start. to just smack it down with data. >> Oh, you you like you're a pro. You have. a problem being a prosecutor. >> A huge problem. Um, I've been called a. logic bully, Trevor. And. >> you think that's funny? My wife had to. explain that's not a compliment. >> Oh yeah. No, I know it's not a. compliment. That's what I think is. hilarious. >> What do you What do you mean people. don't want to be hammered with facts and. studies? >> Oh man. And I love this. >> Have you gotten better at this? Are you. able to like hold yourself when somebody.

>> sometimes. >> sometimes. >> sometimes I mean I I met I talked to. somebody the other day who was. interested in exploring ideas and. finding out what's true not preaching or. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. And you know, I got a. like, well, what's what's your sign? Like, I need to know your sign to. understand you. And I just I launched. into a huge rant. I couldn't resist. That's hilarious. Wait. Okay. Wait. So, now let me ask you this. As an. organizational psychologist, as somebody.

who studies people, that is an instance. that a lot of people might be able to. laugh at and go, "Man, this is funny. That's hilarious. I can't believe that. happened." etc. But I feel like in the. world we're living in today, as people. are getting more access to a more what I. would call like a niche existence, it's your for you feed, it's your. algorithm, it's your way of seeing the. world. Is there any science or is there. a proven way to bridge the gap between.

yourself and somebody else? Especially. let's start with people you care about. Someone you care about who holds a view. that you as you said you would make you. launch a rant against it. Like you go. like I cannot believe you hold this view. >> knowing you as a human being the way I. thought I did. So ideally what what you. start with is you say okay I'm feeling. the strong temptation to preach and. prosecute and I want to think more like. a scientist here. Don't let your ideas. become your identity. >> Okay. So a good scientist would have the.

humility to know what they don't know. and the curiosity to keep seeking new. knowledge. >> Okay. >> And the way you start doing that is you. say, "Huh, what an interesting. specimen.". >> I mean, don't say that out loud. >> Okay. >> But I think I was like, "Okay, this is. not going to help build your. friendship." Okay. Okay. >> No, but the the more the more somebody. holds a different opinion, the less you. understand about how they think. >> Okay. >> Even if you're offended by what they. think. And that means you have to want. to know more. So, you've got a couple options. I think. the first one is to just establish that.

two reasonable intelligent people can. actually disagree and that's okay. A. second is what I love to do is I I love. to ask and this is when I remember to do. it. It leads to a much better. conversation. >> Like, okay Trevor, so like you called. yourself a Pisces. That's so interesting. to me that you would put any stock in. something that I think has no evidence. behind it. >> What evidence would change your mind? Hm. And then what what what happens? What. follows? >> Well, usually people start to map out, well, this is the kind of study I would.

need to see. And then they're on my. turf. >> Oh, damn. So, you're out here laying. logic traps. >> a little bit. >> The the logic bully has turned into the. logic hunter. He's like like Adam's out. in the you're out in the forest like. laying out logic traps. >> The traps are better than. let's let's play this game out now. Let's try this again in a benign topic. Let's go with astrology. Now, and I'm. saying this to you and I mean this. completely. Honestly, I do not believe. in it. However, what would you need from. me to accept that astrology might have.

some merits? >> The first thing I I would want you to do. is is to read the science that has. convinced me that it doesn't have any. merit. >> So, I would say let's let's just throw. out a few simple data points and I'm. going to try really hard not to logic. bully here. >> No, no, go. You can't bully me cuz I'm. asking for it. If I say if I say pull my. underwear, then I'm now a willing. participant. There's no bullying here. This is just two consenting adults, one. pulling the other one's underwear up out. of their pants. >> Fair. >> So, please logic wedging. >> Intellectual wedgie. Here we go.

>> Um, okay. So, there's a psychology piece. and then there's an astrophysics piece. Where do you want to go first? >> Okay, let's go psychology first. >> Okay, so psychology first. So, there's a. huge study by um led by Jackson Lee at. MIT. uh it's over 160,000 people where. you get their astrological sign and then. you also have them fill out a a long. personality questionnaire. >> And it turns out there is literally a. zero correlation between any of the. signs and any personality trait that you. can think of. >> Wow. Zero. Zero.

>> Like on a 1:7 scale um like Capricorns. and Pisces would come out 5.62 versus. 5.63 on how agreeable and friendly they. are. And every trait and every sign goes. like that. >> Zero. >> Zero. >> This is devastating. >> Here's the thing. When you share this. evidence with astrology fans, what they. do is they say, "Well, I need your whole. natal chart because it's not enough to. just know your zodiac sign.". >> Which is true because I mean, the moon. also affects and where was Venus? Where.

was Venus? This is a very key question. >> Not in the picture clearly, but that's. where you then start to go to. astrophysics. And I'm not an. astrophysicist, right? So, I'm I should. be careful here. It's pretty clear that. there the the gravitational force that. the sun, the moon, and the stars exert. on us is so infiniteimally small that it. would almost be impossible to measure. it. The force of any celestial objects. on your body is smaller than the force. your own pillow exerts when you go to. sleep at night. >> Damn. >> And you said you're a Pisces, Trevor.

>> Yeah. >> Turns out because of the Earth's wobble, you're not even the sign that you think. you are, which hasn't been accounted for. in the last couple thousand years. >> I'm I'm sorry. Say that again. The earth. wobbles. >> because the earth has wobbled. People. aren't the star sign that they are. >> They think they are. >> How much have has it moved by? >> I think I I don't I don't actually know. This is not my expertise. I think you. might be one sign off. >> I knew it. I'm an Aquarius. I could feel. You know what? I felt a change a few. years ago and I was like, but I I'm. Pisces. This makes a lot of sense.

>> Clearly, you've just you've just helped. me use the science to get back into. astrology. >> No. No. We're going to continue this. conversation right after this short. break. [Applause]. [Music]. Do you think it's more important to be. right or do you think it's more. important to get along with other. people? >> Ideally, for me, a healthy relationship. is one in which people recognize great. minds do not think alike. They challenge.

each other to think again. >> Uhhuh. >> And if we can't question each other and. we can't disagree, then we actually. don't have a lot of respect for each. other. Oh, that's interesting. >> Like, I don't respect your ability to. learn and your willingness to consider. different views if I'm not open to. putting something out there that you. might object to. >> You know, it's it's funny in in um in. one of the episodes we had Gerard. Carmichael on and we're talking about. his TV show and how he came out as gay. and he'd been struggling to get his. family to accept him as an openly gay.

man. And one of the things we disagreed. on, we're still friends, but one of the. things we disagreed on is how he went. about it. So, he went slamming it in. their face, showing my mom, this is my boyfriend, showing my dad like pics of my boyfriend. in his underwear and you know what I. mean? Now, personally, personally as. Trevor, I don't agree with that. And I. get where Gerard's coming from and he. said like this is the only way I could. get my family to change. He knows his.

family better than I do. So, I go like, "All right, I'll defer to you." But the. thing I said to him was, I find, I'm not. a scientist, nor am I a psychologist, but I find. one of the biggest things that hurts us. in society today is that we. it's sort of like we um how can I put. it? If we spend all our time butting up. against the thing that that that we. disagree on, I was I almost feel like we. form a callous with each other as human. beings. And then that becomes the thing.

that we meet on every single time. Well, well, if it isn't Mr. Pisces, ah, if it. isn't Mr. Science. And now I no longer. see you as Adam. And so I I sometimes. wonder, and maybe maybe you've got, you. know, something to back this up. Or. maybe I'm wrong. I sometimes wonder if. the key to bridging those divides is not. by hitting them headon, but it's by. fortifying the other parts of our of our. connection that make us more likely to.

trust each other in the parts where we. don't get along. Does this make sense? >> It makes a ton of sense. This is. fascinating. Okay, so I have a couple. reactions. First one is uh a callus. protects your hands. >> Okay. >> Right. So it's it's a buildup of I don't. even What is it? I guess it's just skin. that dies and I don't know. I'm I'm not. a anything. But yeah, >> but it prevents you from bleeding, right? There's a there's a protective. layer on there. >> And so I I actually wonder if the. opposite is true. >> If we if we invested in other parts of.

our relationships, we would increase uh. there's a term for it actually. It's. called tensility. >> Um which I had never heard. Um my mentor. Jane Dutton gave me the term. It's it's. basically the the carrying capacity of a. relationship. Oh, I like that. Like. tensile strength. >> Yeah. To bend without breaking. Okay. >> Um and. >> I think you could say, yeah, the more we. invest in the relationship, the more we. build it, >> right? >> But. for some reason, whatever we've been. doing to invest in our relationships in. the last decade was not enough. Like.

people didn't used to fight about. politics, I think, pre205 the way they. do now. >> And we've still watched a lot of. relationships fall apart. Mhm. >> Think about how many in the US. Thanksgiving dinners were just. shattered. >> Yeah. >> So, I actually wonder if we're making in. some ways the opposite mistake. We say, you know, that's that's not important. enough to have the argument. >> H. >> I want to keep the peace. I don't want. to damage the relationship. And so, we. never build the calluses for the big. ones. You you're almost going to an.

earlier stage. You're saying. because we don't spend enough time. challenging each other on the small. things, we're not prepared when the big. things come around for a constructive. and let's say respectful dialogue. >> Exactly. But if you if you think about. it for a second, it's I mean in any. other domain of life, we would assume. you have to practice when the stakes are. low in order to be prepared for the high. situation. But I think so often people are told,

you know, just compromise, pick your. battles in relationships that they end. up treating them as as fragile as. opposed to saying, "No, we we've. actually got to learn how to disagree.". And in fact, there's um there's some. classic research looking at um at. families, uh looking at what does it. take to raise a creative child? And it. turns out that creative children come. from families more often than not uh. that had regular arguments and. disagreements. really. >> Yeah. So, um if you want to raise a.

creative kid, um you can at least. increase the probability. I'm not sure. if it's causal, but by by arguing um. with your spouse a little bit more. >> What What do you think that is? I have. an idea, but I'd love to know what you. think that is. >> Well, I want to hear your hunch before I. I tell you what I think cuz I've for a. long time. >> Okay. So, here's what I think it is. I think the reason children who grow up. in houses that are a little more. argumentative might be a little more. creative is because they're existing in. an environment where there isn't one way. to think. And so what happens is they're.

both stumbling on what I like to call. third thought, right? I had this like. this idea when I was working on the. Daily Show with my team and I'd say I. think everyone has a thought, right? And. then like you can have a second thought. even by yourself, but I think there's. this elusive third thought that can only. come from two different thoughts. clashing together and forming a third. thought that isn't from one specific. place. And so I think if you are. watching people who don't agree as a. child, people who you generally love or.

you care for, etc., you are listening to. a person and you are agreeing with them. maybe or just seeing their point of. view. You're looking at another person. agreeing with them and seeing their. point of view and then maybe you are. holding both including a third which. might be yours which is another opinion. of it and that might force your brain to. think of more things than just the. things that exist which I think is what. creativity fundamentally is. >> I love this. Okay. So, so your theory is. cognitive complexity comes from seeing.

people argue that you don't. >> I need to remember all the you you make. like some of my ideas sound way smarter. and fancier than they are which I like. Cognitive complexity. Write that down. All right. >> I just give you terms for things you. already know. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. Cool. >> I also think you learn to be a. non-conformist through that same. process. >> Oh, interesting. >> That instead of just defaulting or. deferring to whatever an authority. figure tells you, you realize, well, there are two different authorities in. the room and they don't agree. And you I. I think that can both lead to cognitive. complexity, but it can also lead to more.

courage when it comes to challenging the. status quo. because there's not a right answer. coming from. There's not one coming from. above. >> You know, it's funny you say this. My. mom is very religious. Extremely. extremely religious. But I also think. she is one of the most progressive. thinkers I've ever come across in my. lifetime. And one thing I always noticed. as a child was how sometimes she would. disagree with the sermon that the pastor. gave when we'd leave church. And I'd be.

like, "Huh?" And I'm just a kid. I'm. just sitting in the passenger seat. listening. And she goes, "I didn't agree. with that." Mm-m. I didn't I didn't I I. I hear where the pastor was coming from, but I think he was that that story of. Joseph is not about. And then she'd go. into her thing and and then I'd be like, "But he's the pastor." And she's like, "Yeah, he's a guy who reads the Bible. >> He's not God.". >> Yeah, but he's not God. He's like, "We. also have the Bible." And it was an. interesting way for me to view even. religion is going like, "Huh, don't.

assume that the person who stands on the. pullpit. >> has like a monopoly on knowledge. >> You too have the book that you can. read." And so now that makes me wonder. now. I'm like, "Huh, was that part of. >> me?" You know, w Okay, I like this. >> I I like it, too. I mean, you can see. both of those effects playing out. You're not just going to assume that the. pastor's answer is gospel, >> right? And then you're also not going to. be afraid to question what somebody in. power says. >> So, how do you.

if you're a parent? You're a parent. I've met your daughter. Actually, one. one of my favorite things I've I've. encountered is you arguing with your. daughter. >> I don't even remember this. >> You don't remember this? It was really. fun. So, um I don't remember what it was. about. I wish I did, but the two of you. were having a discussion and she said, "I think it's this." And you said, "Why. do you think it's that?" And you're. like, "I don't know if I don't know if I. agree with you." And then I was like, "Actually, I agree with her." And I. really did. I wasn't trying to stir. or anything. She had a a respect for. you, but not like a not like a fear. So,

have you have you encourage that in your. daughter? Have you gone like, "Hey, argue me like on everything, or how does. or does she just see it from you?". >> I I I've tried to encourage it, but it. it's going to happen whether I do or. not. >> Right. Because she I'm assuming she just. observes this. >> Yeah. I mean, she sees me getting things. wrong all the time, and so how can you. not speak up about that? >> Oh, I like that. But I will say, you. know, so you haven't met my wife. Allison, but uh during co we did. something that we'd never tried before, which is we said, okay, we want to we. want to create a household where our. kids are willing to, you know,

constructively disagree and debate. things. We also want to raise a family. in which um you know, they they can. admit their mistakes and not be ego. defensive about what they did wrong. So, we're going to we sat down at family. dinner one night and we said, um, we're. going to go around and each say. something we want to do better, and then. we're going to ask everybody else to. give us notes basically on how we can. improve. And we did it first. >> And we we anticipated some of what our. kids told us, not everything, but it it.

was it was such a powerful conversation. because I think for the I never thought. to do this before, although like we do. this at work all the time, right? bosses. are supposed to ask their teams, "How. can I improve?". >> Um, I'd never seen parents do that with. their kids before. And one of the notes. that that Joanna gave me was that I. needed to be less stubborn. >> And I was like, I literally just. published a book about changing your. mind. And then Elena jumped in and was like,

"You need to think again, Dad.". >> Oh, that's funny. >> And I was like, "Oh, who am I writing. this book for? It's for me because I. need to internalize my own message." But. I I do think that look, some some people. they think this is, you know, gentle. parenting gone overboard. Like I don't. want to ask my kids how I can be a. better parent. >> Yeah. >> I'm like, I don't know a better way to. model to them that we're all works in. progress and we all get things wrong and. we all have to work on ourselves than. that. >> Was there something where you like.

disagreed and you were like, "Nope, I. don't agree with your assessment.". >> Yes. Uh when we got to the We should all. have smartphones. >> Nice. Nice. had to set a boundary there. >> Now, okay, so now let's talk about that. boundary because I think a lot of. parents will relate to this. >> Your kids go, "Hey, I think you're wrong. about us not having smartphones." You. go, "Nope, we we do not think that we're. wrong." Like, how are you making that. decision and what are you basing it on? >> Well, I think look, I think the evidence. is really messy and there are lots of.

conflicting findings. Even some of the. the most knowledgeable experts on this. topic don't agree on what policies. should be. I think that two things. jumped out at me. The first one is um. there was a study showing that the the. earlier kids got smartphones um the. younger they were when they got their. first one uh the lower their self-esteem. um the more emotional challenges they. faced even going into young adulthood. Now is that is that causal? We don't. know. Um it could be that parents who. were lax were lax in lots of different.

ways, >> but that's concerning to me. >> Damn. And then there was just a great um. a great experiment in Scandinavia. showing that when smartphones were. banned from schools, uh kids not only. got better grades, but they also had. better relationships. >> and their social skills improved more. >> And so I think there's enough evidence. to suggest that there are aspects of. smartphones that may not be a net. positive for kids that like a flip phone. or a watch is probably good until high. school.

>> Yeah. like I'm so so I'm on I'm on a. journey of trying to defonify my life. right now. >> How's that working for you? >> It's actually going well. So So what. I've realized is the the gift of the. modern smartphone is is also its curse. and it's that everything is in one. place. And so I'm not saying it is bad, but I just go the collection of. everything is actually a curse at times, you know. So it's like imagine if your. imagine if everything that you kept in. your house food wise was in the exact.

same place. I mean like cake, cupcakes, milk, eggs, bread, you know, beans, you. name, but was all in the same place. Think about how much more likely you. would be to eat a bag of Doritos if like. it was in the fridge. Do you know what I. mean? And so like I think there's like a. weird thing. We we've even done this as. humans where we've gone like, "All. right, that's a snacks cupboard." So, you know that if you open that there'll. be snacks, but if you put the snacks. everywhere else, there's a high. likelihood or a higher I think that. you're going to get sucked in. And I.

think the same thing goes for the. smartphone, right? It's like we we have. this thing. >> This is really good. >> And you go into one part of it and then. all of a sudden you're in another part. of it and you're like, "Wait, what? What? How did I get here? What was I. doing? How did I So, I what I'm trying. to do right now is I'm trying to. defonify my life." So, I go, "I have the. phone. I understand that. But what are. the elements of the phone that I can try. take out of the phone so that I don't. have to take the phone out?". >> Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And then. your friends don't lose you to your text. or your email or Instagram. >> Yeah. The look down, you know, the look. down. And I So I'm I'm like trying to do. that because, you know, to your point of.

like what's the bad thing about I don't. think. >> it's like it's a it's a it's an. unwelcome second system effect. It's a. thing that we didn't necessarily. consider would happen when we made our. phones, our flashlights, our phones, our. email, our computers, our recording. devices, our everything. >> I think your strategy is much better. than what most people do, which is they. just try to use willpower. And the problem is nobody has enough. self-control to resist every temptation. that a phone brings. Man, I wish you. were around when I was a kid just so you. could say that to my mom. No one has. enough self-control. Mom,

professional psychologist just said it. Don't go anywhere cuz we got more what. now after this. [Applause]. [Music]. >> Is it true that willpower like is is a. finite resource? It's a there's a huge. debate about that. I think my read of. the evidence and I just to be clear um I. didn't buy a lot of the evidence when it. was coming out. So I this could be. confirmation bias.

>> but I think that what looked like. ability is actually motivation. >> So let me give you a classic example of. this. All right. So this is this is an. old old experiment. Not not today's. standards of rigor, but people are. brought into the lab and they have to. just write endlessly, okay, for hours. and hours and hours. >> And you're told that you you're supposed. to write until you can't anymore. >> essentially. Uh so your hand is too. cramped. >> Okay. >> And you finish writing. >> Yeah. >> And then you have to sign a form to get. paid. >> and no one complains that their hand.

hurts while they sign the form. It's a. little context switch. and this task. that was impossible to you that you had. exhausted your self-control. >> You cannot write anymore. >> You can't. You're done. Oh, sign this. thing. Oh, no problem. Didn't even cross. my mind. And so, I think what a lot of. us have called willpower is actually. just motivation. It's not self-control. It's a question of do you want this. outcome? Does it matter to you? Are you. excited about it? And if the answer is. yes, you're going to find the willpower.

So then are you saying that the. motivation exerted upon us by snacks or. junk food or social media is more. powerful than the motivation that the. gym exerts on us. >> in the moment? Yeah. Like in that. >> Yeah. Psychologists would say that the. the snacks are a want and the gym is a. should and the wants are they wants. exert a greater pull than shoulds do. But we can outsmart the wants by making. the shoulds um built into our habits or.

by making the wants less tempting. I. think that other people play a huge role. in this too. So um you know the the. famous marshmallow test. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So the original version is uh we put a. marshmallow in front of you, you're a. toddler and you're told you can have it. now, but if you're willing to wait a. little while then we'll get. marshmallows. Exactly. And then the. amount of time that you delay the. gratification predicts your SAT score. and your grades in school. And it's. supposed to be a measure of your. willpower.

>> But to my point about motivation, um. there's a recent replication of the. marshmallow experiment where um some of. the kids are told that uh another child. will get a second marshmallow if they. can wait. >> And what happens? >> And their quote unquote willpower goes. up. They don't want to let the other kid. down. Is the other kid there staring at. them? >> No. >> They they just told about the idea of. another kid. >> Yeah. Just knowing that another kid. could lose a marshmallow because of you. is enough to to amplify your motivation.

and you wait a little bit longer. Are. you doing that because you care about. the the other kid enjoying the gooey. treat? >> Yes. >> Could be part of it. Are you also doing. that because you don't want to feel. guilty about letting that kid down? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. But. >> it doesn't matter whether it's one or. the other or a combination of the two. At the end of the day, I think my. Angelou said, um, I'm counting on you, counting on me. >> So, let's. >> that's what's happening here. >> Let's let's let's take that, you know, out of that world and think, did they ask did they ever try playing.

around with who the they told the kids. was going to get the marshmallow? >> No. >> Cuz I'd be fascinated if like if they. said, "Hey, there's an adult in the. other room who'll get a marshmallow.". Hey, there's a grandmother who there's a. grandfather. There's a dog. There's a. sheep. Hey, the devil is in the next. room. And like Satan, and if you wait, Satan will get an extra marshmallow. I. wonder what the result would be. And the. reason I ask it is because I think about.

like extrapolating this to larger. society. And I go, it makes sense to me. that a kid would think of another kid. when holding out on taking a. marshmallow, right? because they go if I. get I'll get another one and they'll get. another one. Us kids get more, right? What happens when that kid no longer. thinks that the other thing is like. them? >> Yep. >> Do do you know what I mean? >> I do. >> And then the question I have for you is. how do we then overcome that in society?

Cuz we see it in everything, right? In. America, we're getting to a point where. Republicans and Democrats no longer see. each other as human beings. You know, you take it everywhere. You take it. everywhere. You know, Israel Palestine. is a great example. And one thing that. always strikes me is when I talk to. friends, especially from the region, is. they'll be like, "Man, we're a lot more. similar than you guys think we are from. the outside, and this is a lot more like. heinous for us as human beings than, you. know, people sort of play around with. it." And I I so I wonder, is there like.

a way to improve that or is there a way. to understand why we do or don't see. somebody as being. a kid in the other room who might get a. marshmallow? Oh, there there there so. many things we could think about there. First one is. Lee Lee Ross did this experiment years. ago before it was nearly as polarized as. it as it is now. But it was Israel and. Palestine at the time. It was a test of. allegiance. >> Uh so people are people who are strongly. either pro Palestine or pro-Israel are. presented with peace plans uh from the.

other side. >> and the question is how do they feel. about them? And they're also presented. with plans from their own side. And it. turns out the content of the plan is. irrelevant. What matters is what group. you think created it. So if you're pro. Palestine, right, you're more excited. about the plan that is Israelis came up. with if it was labeled a Palestinian. plan than you are your own country's. plan if it was labeled an Israeli plan, >> right? >> And I think that really just speaks to. your point about both in-group loyalty. and outgroup distrust or maybe even.

dehumanization. So, we feel if we think. the idea is coming from somebody that we. don't trust or somebody that we don't. feel holds the same value as as we do as. a human, we're less likely to take on. that idea. >> Throw it out. I think most psychologists. would tell you that uh the majority of. prejudice is driven not originally by. outgroup hate, but by in-group love. >> Huh? Wait, wait. Say more about that. Well, I think the the classic finding is.

that like people will they'll they'll. attach to a group. >> Yeah. >> When they have the the most minimal and. trivial cues of groupness. Uh like you. know you can you can just put people in. a room together and say come up with a. name for your group and all of a sudden. that group is good and any group that's. not us well we have to treat them a. little bit differently. >> It's that simple. >> It it often is. We see it happen all. around us. So, one of the things Tim. Kundro and I did a few years ago was we. said, "Okay, part of what people don't.

think about is they think about the. group that they belong to as um as part. of their essence. It's who I am.". >> But if you run the counterfactual, it's. very possible you could have belonged to. a different group, >> right? >> So, we started out with a really simple. example. We did um Red Sox and Yankees. fans given that that's one of the most. intense rivalries in American sports. It. >> is indeed. What we did was we said, uh, we want you to just, uh, write about. what it would be like if you're a. Yankees fan to have grown up in Boston. And then they're less nasty to the other.

side after doing that. >> Why? It seems to be the case that they. start to see more similarities between. them and the people that they thought. were their enemy and they realize like, wow, this deep allegiance that I thought. this was who I am. >> It's actually just an accident of birth. or where my parents happened to live at. a given time. And then we said, okay, well, what if what if this process of. counterfactual thinking could go bigger. than baseball rivalries? >> So, we had people on opposite sides of.

guns and abortion do the same exercise. And we said, "Okay, if uh if you're. somebody who's um who's very strongly um. gun safety, >> Yeah. >> Uh imagine you grew up hunting um in, you know, in the South with your family. How might you feel differently?". >> Um and we found that not only were. people um more open to having a genuine. disagreement with the other side, not. only more were they more willing to. listen to their challenging opinions, they were more interested in dating. somebody who disagreed with them.

>> Oh, that that switched quick. >> Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And all I mean this is. literally a one-minute intervention. Now. the problem is a lot of people won't do. the exercise in the first place, right? So I sit down with somebody and I say, "Hey Trevor, like imagine you'd grown. up." Well, I wouldn't have been raised. in those circumstances. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So I I think that's the next step is is. to figure out how to get people to. engage with that. >> Yeah. It's I often I often wonder if. this is a. you know I I sometimes think of it as a. failure of leadership you know um.

there's a so for instance America is a. good example you know the ascent of. Donald Trump I found particularly. interesting because he was the first. politician I had seen in America who. really made it zero sum in a way that I. I'd never really seen any polit. politicians do for you know it doesn't. matter if it's like George Bush it. doesn't matter if Bill Clinton there was. always an element of like reach across. the aisle and and now Trump has gone. like no actually forget that no reaching.

no shaking hands no nothing you're scum. of the earth you know what I mean and. I'm in I'm intrigued by why. that attitude which we're seeing around. the world by the way I'm not saying this. is a Donald Trump thing why is that more. seductive than the people who say, "Let's see it from the other side. Let's. shake hands. Let's think about this. Let's find like why is it more seductive. if the other one makes us better human.

beings to each other?". >> I think it's not a coincidence, as you. said, that this is happening around the. world. >> Yeah. >> And I think that it's happening around. the world in a context of perceived. scarcity and fear of loss. >> Oh, yeah. So the the American version is. like this is the first generation on. record that is not going to be better. off than their parents. And you if. you're sitting around worrying about. that all the time, it is really. appealing to have somebody who tells you. uh I alone can fix this.

>> So from a psychology standpoint, how do. we fix it? >> The Heineken commercial was a good. start. >> I'm sorry. >> You've seen the Heineken commercial, right? >> Which one? There there was there was. just a massive experiment where I think. psychologists submitted at least two. dozen different interventions to try to. bridge divides. Okay. >> And the Heineken commercial beat all of. them. >> The commercial. >> The commercial. Yeah. Can we pull it? >> This one. >> I would describe my political views as. the new right. >> I say that I'm left. >> So it's a 4-minute Heineken ad where.

essentially they bring people together. They play us their I guess main belief. >> Somebody said to me that climate change. is destroying the world. Then I'd say. that is total piffle. >> You know, I'm anti-trans. I'm feminist. Uh I hate feminists, etc., etc. >> So transgender. It is very odd. >> I am a daughter, a wife, I am. transgender. >> They put the people who have the. opposing beliefs with each other. Then. they give them a series of tasks to.

complete and then they expose to them. the main belief that other people have. that I guess differs and then they agree. and they sit down and they have a beer. >> Even if you wanted to to convince people. about your point, the productive thing. to do would be to sit down. Just engage. >> I've been brought up in a way where. everything's black and white, but life. isn't black and white. >> Yeah. Just. >> now let's go back to what you said. the ad itself. >> Yes, this is the amazing thing is you.

don't have to go and have the beer or. build the box with the person. You just. have to watch the ad. It's enough to. reduce your prejudice against the other. side. >> Huh. Why do we think that is? >> Well, I think what's what's happening, and you can you can actually hear some. of it in the video, is we're confronting. binary bias, which is the basic tendency. that people have to oversimplify a. complex world into two categories. >> Okay? >> Um, you know, Republicans bad, Democrats. good, >> right? and showing a 3D view of that and.

sort of busting that um that bubble. >> So, you know what's interesting about. this? You talk about coming around full. circle. In a weird way, it almost feels. like we. as adults should be living in a world. where we watch multiple parents arguing. because then it'll help us be more. creative in how we see our connection. with other people. Because if if you. think about it, if you show Americans. Republican and Democrat, they believe. that there are only two ways to see an.

issue, there are only two outcomes to. every issue, and there are only two ways. to be, that then fundamentally means at. the end of the day, just I mean. averaging and odds and you're probably. going to end up at a 50/50 impass. because that's what it is. But if you. found a way to show them sort of an. anonymized. breakdown of views, people may be more. likely to come to more complex. conclusions about a varying set of. topics. >> Yes. And I don't need you to think I'm. right. I just need you to recognize that. you might be wrong, >> just as I know I might be. And actually,

Trevor, there's a really specific. example of this that if you were still. hosting the Daily Show, I would say do. it this fall. Um Sarah Conrath has. tested the effects of changing the maps. we show in election seasons and says. there's no such thing as a blue state or. a red state. They're just different. proportions. >> And it turns out if you show people a. purple map with different shades, uh. they're actually more uh they're more. open to the other side and they show. less prejudice, less stereotyping, less. discrimination. >> Oh, that's amazing. Why haven't we just. done that? >> I don't know. I think we all should be.

Well, I think we know the answer to. that. >> Yeah. It's not as dramatic. It's not as. >> and I think you see like this is what I. this is what I mean is like not that. things are you know again not the binary. good or bad but if you look at like if. you look at incentives. in many ways I would say like the news. in in and around the world has. tendencies that the snack and junk food. industry has and that it is trying to. maximize. So if they show you a red and. blue map, it makes you feel like you are. engaged in a battle where one side is. encroaching and you are either winning.

or you are losing, but you really see. this thing visually. Showing me a shades. of purplish map is just like you've now. just shown me the United States of. America, which is not scary, is not as. exciting. And so it's like in a weird. way, it's almost like that's what we. have to ask ourselves is where do the. incentives lie? If the news has an. incentive to keep you watching, unfortunately, that incentive will probably be best. served by them making you feel like. everything is always ending and then. people are coming to get you, right?

Maybe. >> I think so. I don't know. I mean, >> oh, people are going to listen to this. podcast. They might even watch it. >> We haven't discussed any urgent news or. any headlines. Yes, >> there's there's a there's a huge. appetite for long- form, thoughtful, complexified conversations. >> Yes, >> I don't think we figured out how to put. that on TV. >> Yeah, in a weird way, it goes back to. the incentives and who's running them or. controlling them. >> It does, but I think on the margins. there are still things we can do. So, like we were talking earlier about uh.

people not trusting science and I think. a huge reason why that happened is um. science was oversimplified. And so what. what we ought to say is, you know, here's an initial study and the best. available evidence points in the. following direction, but here are the. caveats, right? You see that in any. scientific paper you read. Well, journalists are afraid to do that. because they think it undermines. interest. >> Yes, >> it doesn't. Um there are a whole bunch. of studies which I should caveat. We. don't know if if they're going to. continue to replicate, but. >> people are just as interested and they. read with healthy skepticism and they.

appreciate the complexity. >> So then let me ask you this. Using everything you've taught me in. this conversation, how do you think you. will. bridge or re-evaluate your relationship. with the friend of yours who believes in. astrology and you had like a a little. like ranty bust up with? What do you. What do you think you can do now to. connect with them? >> What do you think I should do? >> I would start with the like apology.

Just be like, "Hey man, really sorry. You know me, science. I put science. above everything and studies have. actually shown that people like me are. less likely to be open to a different. opinion and and so yeah man anyway it's. actually funny I wouldn't have usually. done that but Mercury's in retrograde. and that that probably contributed to my. inability to um connect with you as a. person and then if if they laugh then. you know you're in the space and then if. they don't you can be like I'm joking or. whatever then maybe you you know you.

find like a little bridge and you know. their sense of humor and you know what. connected you in the first place and. then you go from there and then you're. like anyway how's and I think that is. enough I don't think you're supposed to. solve it there personally let's sort of. build a scaffolding around this this. fracture in the column of our friendship. and then when that scaffolding is intact. at some point you can come back joke. laugh connect and whatever cuz I don't. think you need to agree with your. friends on everything but if you get. back to remembering that they're a human. being I do find you can you can have.

like a really wonderful relationship. Well, you can even now mock each other. about that and just be like, "Yeah, of. course. What are you going to say about. that? What are you going to say?" I I. think that's what I would think. >> I love this. Do you do you talk about. astrology again or do you just leave it. aside? >> Yeah, but I think you it's it's it's. it's no different to a limb that is. injured, right? Why do we put people on. crutches? We put people on crutches so. that they can stay off the limb that's. hurt right now. in the long term, you. intend to get back on that limb and. you're going to do some physical. therapy. But for the short term, it's. like stay off of it and then next thing.

you know, you're back at single leg. squats and and you're in the game. And I. think I believe that that point of a. friendship actually becomes greater. because now you have a rift that you've. repaired. And I sometimes think I. sometimes think the most important. connections you'll make are actually in. the rifts. I think those moments is. where like the the real like like core. of a friendship actually existed like. the strength of it. >> Why?

>> Because I think you've now built a new. type of trust. You've shown to each. other that you have the ability to come. back from anything. And I think that. resilience might be more important than. just like a like a theoretical. willingness. And so you can then laugh. and go like, "Man, remember that fight. we had? Remember that that went. wrong? Remember that? Wow, that was I. can't believe we man that was that's. what I think. >> So you've you've proven your commitment. to each other also as part of that it. seems. >> Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I'm trying to. work on in my life with people is I go. like all right I disagree with that.

Have we shored up every other part of. our lives? All right let's tap on that a. little bit. How you feeling about that. today? Let's chat a little bit more. Have you seen this? What is your. perspective on this? I find that helps. me a lot with people as I go. I've read. this article. I would like to know how. you how you see this and how you. perceive it before I say anything. And I. find and that's maybe why I keep them. and and call them friends. I find the. people who I have in my life are willing. to say yeah actually that's not or this. is and I find over the years and over. the months our conversations have become.

a lot softer at the edges than they once. would have been. >> Uh this I think you missed a calling as. a therapist life coach. >> No, no, no, no. Well, you do it. masterfully and I I can't help but react. to one thing that you just highlighted, which is I don't think character is is. how you treat people when things are. going your way. It's how you show up on. a hard day. >> And I think true character is what do. you do when your values are tested? >> Yeah. What do you do when your values.

are tested? Damn. What do you do when your values. are tested? Well, we'll leave everyone. thinking of that one. Adam Grant, it's. always a pleasure chatting to you. Honor. is mine, Trevor. Thank you. It's a blast. as always. [Music]. >> What now with Trevor Noah is produced by. Spotify Studios in partnership with Day. Zero Productions. The show is executive. produced by Trevor Noah Saz Yamin and.

Jodi Avagan. Our senior producer is Jess. Hackle. Cla Slaughter is our producer. Music mixing and mastering by Hannis. Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another. episode of What Now? [Music].