Undercover Agent Scott Payne | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #674

Today's guest is a retired FBI special. agent who spent 28 years in law. enforcement. A lot of that undercover. He infiltrated some of the most. dangerous groups in America. Motorcycle. gangs, uh, drug traffickers, the cartel. He has a book out called Code Name Pale. Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose. America's Nazis. We go way down the. rabbit hole in this one. Uh we want to. let people know that some of this uh the. stories in this one can be a little bit.

graphic. Uh had a nice chat with today's. guest, Mr. Scott Pain. [music]. Scott Payne, the author of Codeename. Pale Horse. Uh, that's your book. And. you you had some code names, too. I saw. that big country they called you. Is.

that? >> Yeah. I'm more like Schmemedium now. But. yeah. >> Oh, yeah. You coming down, huh? You. deescalating. >> I'm aging. >> Where where you where you from? >> Uh, born and raised in Greenville, South. Carolina. >> Oh, that's a beautiful city. >> Yeah, but born and raised there. Lived. in Charleston. Played ball in. Charleston, South Carolina. But I'm I'm. in East Tennessee now, man. >> Amen, man. Well, welcome to Tennessee, dude. To catch our listeners up for. those who don't know, you spent uh 28. years in law enforcement, right? And and. so that was in police work, SWAT, uh.

FBI, undercover. Um and that was uh. undercover with drug trafficking, cartels, um white supremacist groups. Um. what about your life before law. enforcement made you think uh that. that's a a direction I want to go in? >> Well, it's not. I mean, it's one of. those things you look back and you go, "Oh, I can see what was happening." I. didn't really know what was happening at. the time, but I just love connecting. with people. I mean, I go into great. detail in the book, but like in high. school, when I was in high school in the. 80s, you had a smoking area.

>> Oh, yeah. >> You know, you go out there with your. cigarettes, you know, and then you had. like I could go I could hang in in in. almost every crowd. That's all. It's. it's not saying I could. >> be one of them necessarily. I could just. be accepted. So, >> ptheads, I'm there. Jocks, I'm there. Musicians, I'm there. You look back and. you see these things. Uh, but something. about I don't know if it started when I. became a cop, but like some of my. mentors, there's a guy named Gary Ward, uh, who was at the Greenville County.

Sheriff's Office in South Carolina, and. he was the strongest man in the late. 80s. So, he came in after like Bill. Casmire. He was he was a Marine, former. Marine, but at that time, he was a. Marine, and he he won the heavyweight. class. and bench squat and deadlift. So. now he's on narcotics and he's this. jacked big dude with that. Yeah. Goodness gracious. That's him. Oh my. lord, baby, >> dude. Look at him. And he got bigger and. then poor. >> Look at the thighs on they would damn. sell him at auction. >> Yeah. When I met him, he had a I mean he.

had a beard and everything and Yeah. >> I bet he damn goes to the toilet and his. yard just grows better. >> Oh, dude. You know, I used to ask him, I. go, we'd be at the gym and I'm like, uh, I'm like, man, I never see you doing. like this exercise or exercise like. this, but man, your neck and your. shoulders are He said, "Son, when you. pick that much weight up off the ground, something's going to grow." [laughter]. I was like, "All right, man." Yeah. He. used to bust my chops, man. We he helped. me perfect my squat. Squat was my. strongest lift. So, you know. >> So, you had a role model like that kind. of. >> And he had done undercover and biker.

stuff. And I was becoming a biker. I. mean, I grew up on motorcycles, but I. mean like riding like Americanmade, you. know, Harley out there, going to rallies. and all that stuff. And uh he had done. that. And I don't know if that's what. gave me the bug. All I know is that like. it doesn't matter during that time. frame, that 80s, 90s, it doesn't matter. if it was the cheesiest undercover. movie. I loved them all. >> Amen. >> Loved them all, man. >> Things like that have an effect on your. life. The people you meet in the gym. have an effect on your life. Um, so you.

get into police work over there in. Greenville, South Carolina. Do you. remember a day that it just got real? You're like, "Oh, this is now it really. feels real kind of.". >> Oh, man. There's there's so if you're. uniform patrol, I mean, it's most. people, I guess if you're not a cop, you. don't think this way or know it, but you. just see so much trauma and stuff and. you get desensitized sort of. I mean, we. we compartmentalize it and it's we're. we're not very good at it. And that's. why first responders and I and I'm.

include medic, fire, and military. If. we're not number one, we're very high. for divorce, suicide, substance abuse, and dying within 5 years after retiring. >> So, it's a pressure cooker. But like. going in uniform, you can show up on all. kinds of stuff. I mean, I've I've shown. up and nothing more. There's plenty of. men and women in law enforcement that. have done more and seen more, but you. know, you go into a place and this, you. know, a trailer caught on fire and the. person died in the position where they.

were trying to crawl out the I mean, it's just all kinds of stuff. Somebody. gets hit by a train, you're finding. pieces of stuff. Um. >> um do you remember a day where you're. like, I don't know if we're really. trained for this kind of. >> Um well, the thing that's jumping on my. in my head right now is because I'm. still a tactical instructor. I'm an. instructor with Alert. Um, it's it's. spelled with two Rs, A L E R R T. But. the but the FBI and Alert married in. 2013, and it's the national standard for. training law enforcement how to respond.

to active shooter events. >> So, uh, I was just I was we were just. putting on a class last week in East. Tennessee. >> So, that's a national organization. alert. >> Yeah. So, we doing all kinds of stuff. Stopping the killing, stopping the. dying, and then you got to do casualty. evac. But that what I was saying if you. were asking me about something like. Greenville County um I had a good friend. of mine die in the line of duty and and. this is what we're trying to do a lot of. times we're training we're just saying. man just slow down just a little bit you. know I get it you know young gunning I'm.

still got plenty of testosterone in me. and you want to just bust in there and. and run into rooms and there's a safer. way to do it. Um, but what happened to. my friend is we weren't really getting. the training at that time. But, uh, he. was the city. Uh, I was I was county, but he was city, but his the edge bumped. up to each other, right? So, he sees. somebody's got a lot of warrants on him, jumps out, chases him on foot, chases. him into a building, somebody clocks him. in the head with a board, >> and now you got tunnel vision. Now he's. like, all he's seeing is this. Even. though he got hit in the head with a.

board, he calls it out, but he sees the. guy running. And and Russ was in shape. Russell Sorrow, he was in shape, man. He. took off after him and. we just hadn't had the training to slow. down enough to. >> stop and think. >> to to to pan and and use use distance. and angles and he ran right cuz it was a. hard corner and he ran right past the. bad guy and the guy shot him in the back. and when he went down he walked up and. shot him three times directly in the. back of the head and they rolled him. over and shot him in the mouth and in. the eye and broad daylight. So, um, but.

if we would have had that training and. you got to get the reps, you got to and. it's sad to say, but most places are, they don't have the budget anyway, but. >> at least in my experience, when they're. having budget problems, the first thing. that gets cut is training. >> Wow. >> And then something bad happens. And then. you look and you go, "How did that. happen?" And then you look and people. that are out there in the industry that. have the skill sets, they're like, "Well, this a lack of training.". >> They didn't know what to do, you know? >> Oh, yeah. The rep. I mean, you you say.

the reps, man, the muscle memory, just. the idea, you know, it's like cuz. otherwise I'm sure you're running on. adrenaline and I don't know. >> how much I don't know chemically what is. in adrenaline. if there's a part of it like of the chem. endorphins. I mean, it's going to be. like it's going to probably be like a. epinephrine or something. Right. >> Right. There's not something in there. that's like, hey, let's. >> relax. Yeah. It's not that one. Yeah. It's the opposite of relax. >> So, we we may need some new adrenaline. >> Yeah. It's so so when we're doing those. trainings, we call it a stress. inoculation. So out there on the range,

I get you and and or maybe when we're. doing force on force with the marking. cartridges, you're in a mask, you're in. a helmet, enclosed neck protector, and. you'll hear people a lot of times say, "Man, I couldn't hear anything." When. we're doing the test, say, "Hey, this is. how you put the mask on. Put it on." You. stand up there and you go, "Hey, can you. hear the sound of my voice?" And. everybody raises their hand. It's not. It's not the helmet, it's your stress. >> Wow. Wow. So, you do that and we we. often refer to it as you bleed on the. range so you don't die in the street, but it takes the reps. There's so many. videos I can show you, military and law.

enforcement, where the officer has no. idea how many rounds they've shot. They. have no idea that they did at a magazine. exchange. They had no idea that they did. it behind cover, but they did it because. they trained. So, it became until it. became instinctive or like you said, muscle memory. >> Yeah. When things get intense, man. Yeah. It's hard to sit back and like and. and and remember what occurred. >> Yeah. >> Much like Yeah. when you're having an. adrenaline dump. >> Um and it could be any traumatic. experience. It could be your first car. wreck. I remember my first car wreck. Everything goes to slow motion.

>> Yeah. >> You're just like, whoa. And everything's. a time dilation, so your eyes click. You're just getting screenshots because. it's not a smooth transition. Your. auditory exclusion. You sound like you. feel like you're underwater. Everything's like you just hear wa wa wa. and it's just everything slow. You can. feel your heart beating through your. whole body. I will say though u studies. have shown that the better physical. shape you're in, the quicker you'll. recover from those adrenaline dumps. >> So adrenaline dump is a it's a real. thing that you that you guys.

>> Yeah, that's what I call it, but I mean. there's probably another term for it, but. >> No, this is Let me see right here. It. says, "An adrenaline dump is a sudden. large release of the hormone adrenaline, epinephrine, from your adrenal glands. that rapidly flips your body into fight. or flight mode, followed by a downshift. Once that surge clears and related. stress hormones settle, um, breathing rate increases and airways. relax to pull in more oxygen quickly. Blood flow is redirected away from. digestion toward muscles, heart, lungs,

and brain so you can move and react. faster." And that's on perplexity. Wow, that's inter. Yeah, I just didn't know. that. >> And you can come in and out of it. You. know, you can be like in a situation, have the adrenaline dump, and then you. start, okay, things are calming down. now. You're coming back to normal, and. then something else happens. You're. like, oh, dad gam it. And you're going. right back down to another adrenaline. dump. >> So, and and in your work, you've. probably kind of ridden those like a lot. over the years. Almost like waves kind. of. >> Yeah. >> Like you're surfing a little bit. >> Yeah. But I don't like that kind of. surfing. [laughter]. >> Gosh, man. I never thought about like.

that. That's something. And I mean, you. always hear the term, oh, you have an. adrenaline dump, but I've never really. kind of looked at it as to see exactly. what's kind of occurring in that in. those moments. >> Uh, so you you end up moving, I'm. assuming, from police work uh to SWAT. Is that kind of how it went? Because I. remember I heard you talk one time about. those jumpout boys, right? Yes. >> And I remember reading about jumpout. boys like even down in Louisiana and. stuff. It was like these sort of like it. was kind of this new thing that was. happening. This is what we gathered is. just regular. >> back in the 50 days. Everybody was 50.

Everybody 5, >> dude. Anybody. >> yelling on the corner? 50. I'm like, I'm. not even in a Mustang, >> bro. Dude, you see a white Dodge Neon. and people yell five or even you just. see a white guy that hadn't been out in. a while. I know. Yeah. >> And people would yell 5O. >> Oh, man. You're trying to earn some. money on the corner by being a lookout. >> Those were the days, bro. >> 5. And everybody would run. It didn't. even matter, dude. >> Um, but yeah, but the Jump Out Boys, it. was it was kind of an unmarked car group. that was kind of taking on drug. trafficking. That's what that's how we.

always heard about it. Like. >> so it's not SWAT. Uh at the sheriff's. office, I I didn't get on SWAT. I got on. SWAT in the FBI. >> Got it. >> But I did make vice narcotics. investigator. And that's your jumpout. boys. It's usually your narcotics unit. >> It is. >> We're rolling out. I mean, being young. and dumb, you know, I'd be out late at. night, single, partying. I'd come in and. [laughter]. thankfully Gary didn't like beat me up. or nothing, but I remember we've had to. drive like 40 minutes to where we're. going to do a jump out. I said, "Hey, I'm just going to nod off a little bit. about 5 minutes out. If you'll just wake. me up, let me know." I wake up and I'd.

go, "All right. All right." Cuz you're. young. I mean, you're, you know, nothing's not popping when you stand up, you know, and you just go like, "All. right, man. We're rolling up." And van. door opens. You start running from a. dead sleep, [laughter]. >> chasing you. >> And what? So, I guess I'm guessing they. didn't breathalyze y'all before your. shift. >> I wasn't drunk. I was just tired. >> Oh, damn. >> The night before I might have been a. little snered, but yeah. you know, I'm. just I I had the hair of the dog, you. know. >> Amen. What were some of those calls. like? >> A lot of those. So So the jumpout stuff,

you're going to be going to somewhere. that's got a lot of reporting or. incidents recorded of high drug. trafficking. So they're going to be. pulling up and it may be it may be quick. buys. You may run an undercover in um to. make a buy and then you they either they. identify them or you got it on camera. and they're coming. So you go through. and it's like, "All right, the dude's. wearing a yellow coat, blah blah blah. blah blah." and then they just pull in. right after that and jump out and grab. them because they just sold up if you. want to do it that quick. Um, other. times it might be for me once I was in. the FBI was really source development.

I'd go out there with the lo state and. locals and you know. observe. >> just get involved. >> Yeah, you hop in. You hop in and you go. and sometimes you can get some uh good. information. M. So, as you're coming up. through the police department, what. makes you like is the police department. is the activity there kind of not enough. or is there like an like is are you in a. search for more? Like what makes you. want to kind of evolve your career to. try other uh genres of law enforcement? >> Well, there's a couple of things that.

happen. Uh number one, the pay. >> Okay, >> you're you're at the sheriff's office. for 5 years. You don't get any raises. County council gives themsel raises. Happens all over the United States. Not. just Greenville, South Carolina. What. were y'all getting made? What were we. all getting? >> Oh man, I don't know. We're I was a That. would have been. >> 93 to 98. I was a cop. So, I don't know. 50 60 grandandy. I don't Who knows? You. know, but you know that as a cop, you're. also moonlighting. You're doing all. kinds of side jobs, you know. You get. Oh, yeah. You get off of work and then.

you go to Frankie Fun Park or some golf. thing and you sit there or you go to uh. the Dollar General and you sit, you. know, to for shoplifting and stuff like. that and you get extra money. So working. like security gigs, side gigs. Yeah. Refereeing all kind of stuff. You forget. that. I forget that the police officers. do all kind of stuff. They would be. umpires for our games. A lot of times. they'd be refereeing basketball. I. forgot about all that. >> Or Yeah. Or that's your side. Maybe. you're if you're in uniform, you might. see the cop at the high school game. That's a side job. Got it. >> You know, you're getting paid for that.

But um I looked at the pay cuz after. five years it was kind of like, man, I'm. not making anything. even though I was a. twostriper at that point, but it's like. you look, they would raise the it was. weird because they would raise the the. hiring rate, the the pay for the hiring. So, uh starting rate, but at at some. point, I probably could have literally. quit, walked out the door, and came back. in with a four-year degree and make more. than what I'm making, which doesn't make. any sense. And you also look at it and. you're like, I'm never I'm never going. to max out my retirement. Look, look at.

how much we're making, how little we. get. I'm never going to hit peak unless. I'm live to be a hundred and they let me. work as a hundred-y old cop, you know, in a wheelchair, you know. But, uh, I. looked at that, but I was really. starting to get a lot more exposure um, as far as I was learning more about the. federal agencies cuz we would go out and. help them with arrest and stuff. And I. really didn't know. I thought. [clears throat] the FBI just worked bank. robberies because that's the only time I. ever saw them. And I had a sergeant. He. said, and and my nickname at that time. was Kingpin. And he said, "Kingpan, if I.

was you and I was a single man and had a. four-year degree," he said, "Man, I. would put in for the FBI and I'd list. New York as my first office." And I. thought, >> you said, "I'd list New York as my first. office.". >> Yeah. I'd put New York as I I want to go. to New York. And and and uh and that, you know, uh. >> New York. Yeah. >> And I told him, I was like, >> "Are you what are you smug?" I'm like, "There's no way I'd go to New York. What. are you talking about?". >> I started applying because I thought I. said, "All they work, what do they do?". And he goes, he says, "Scott, they do. everything." And I'd heard that it was.

harder to get hired with them and I took. it as a challenge. I filled out that one. first and I never filled out another. one. Took about probably a year to get. through the whole process. But, uh, the. polygraphs and then the physical fitness. and all the backgrounds and then there's. tests you have to take and then there's. another interview test and and then you. get to the academy. You get your letter. and I arrived I arrived in Quantico, Virginia on 927 to 98 and 928 is your. first day. >> Dang. And. >> before we go into your first day, when.

it comes to the FBI, what were some of. like the the criteria that they were. looking for? Were there unique tests and. stuff that they had you do along the way. that that uh or even experiences that in. hindsight may have been used to weed. people out that you're able to notice. now? >> Oh, yeah. I mean there's all there I. mean they [laughter]. like the phase one test. >> cuz you tickle me I'll tell you what's. going on. >> Yeah. Right. Right. [laughter]. >> You know what I'm saying? >> That's I mean I was very truthful on the. polygraph I did but I sat in the box for. like three and a half hours. I'm like I. don't know what you mean tell you. I'm.

not lying. you know, uh, but that phase. [clears throat] one test, it has like. there's like questions they ask you, you. know, would you be more likely to and. they're giving you scenarios and stuff, but there was this math part. >> and and I had to go back and I had good. grades in college and stuff, but I don't. remember any of that. I didn't remember. any of the geometry and all the other. stuff, algebra. I was like, I don't. remember this. >> Yeah. Nobody does it. >> So, I go, unless your job has you doing. it for something, right? >> No. If you walked up to them, 95% of. people that graduated those classes.

right now, I bet they couldn't tell you. >> So I [laughter]. >> they couldn't tell you. >> I walk in and and. >> cuz nobody's using it cuz what sometimes. it's like there's a missing dog in your. neighborhood or something. If somebody. shows up with geometry to find a damn. missing dog, I'm pointing at them, brother. They got that pup. >> I look at it like this. It it helps you. find ways to solve problems is the way I. kind of look at it. >> That's a good attitude. >> That's that's that's you know uh but I. uh uh so the middle section was math. >> Okay. Now, they do look for certain. backgrounds. When I was coming in, if. you were an accountant, CPA, that's.

good. Uh, attorney with you pass the. bar, that's good. Um, former military, intel, foreign language speaking, and. diverse. And I came in under diverse. So, four-year degree, three years of. experience, but I was a former cop, so. that helped if they're looking for that. Um, >> so they're bringing all types into. completely diverse. Yeah. I mean, you. got former doctors, former biochemists. >> Really? >> Yeah. It's insane. So, it's not just. police officers. >> No, no, not especially not in the FBI. >> Huh. I never thought of that. I always.

just feel like it's police and then it's. uh and they military. Yeah. >> Yeah. Or military and they evolve into. working with the FBI. >> One of my best friends that went through. the academy with me, he was a former. Walmart manager and he smoked the. fitness test and he was a great agent. So, I mean, it's like, yeah, all kinds. of backgrounds. Actually, I think that's. one of the strongest points of the FBI. um is the diver diversity. But sometimes. we place people in the wrong places, you. know. >> Yeah. Oh, once they're in, you. >> Oh, I could see that. >> Like you got knuckle dragger like me and.

you want to stick me on some high. flulutin, I don't know, healthcare fraud. squad. >> Yeah. >> It's not me. [laughter]. >> Yeah. Yeah. Now, but if you want to put. somebody into the healthc care fraud. squad that's familiar with rolling back. prices. >> Yeah. An accountant or a former medical. person, right? >> Or a former Walmart employee. There you. go. There you go. >> And that's the guy we need. So, >> I'm more of the greeter. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I'm that guy. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, oh, they got. him out here for a reason, you know. Um, yeah. And sorry, I interrupted you, man. So, so, uh, so you're going through the.

phase one test, right? >> Yeah. So, there's questions. There's. there's a there was basically three. parts, but the middle part was all that. algebra and geometry and all this stuff. And I mean, I studied I studied and. studied, but as I walk in, I see I've. already met some people, and they're. full-blown CPA accountants who've been. doing this. When we walked out of that. thing, I saw them going, I don't even. know what that was. I think I failed. And I'm like, well, if you failed, I. know I failed, man. I'm like, this. you're this is your world, man. But I.

just I just started just circling stuff. when I was running out of time. So, [laughter]. >> I know, dude. >> The the law of averages was on my side. that day. >> And you and you passed. >> Pick C. I just went [laughter]. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Uh yeah, I guess I did. I don't know. I. don't know if it was something to break. you like to throw you off mentally just. to stress you out because then the third. part was backed into questions again. So, so like if you've ever taken the. MMP2 for a job, it's MMP2 something. It's like 547 questions and a lot of.

places have it and even our. psychological unit has it and I think. you have to take it like once every two. years or four years. But I mean it's. it's like so many different ways to ask. the same question. But if you are hiding. something under the surface, I don't. know, maybe when you get stressed. somewhere in there psychologically, it's. going to slip out on the back end. >> Oh, that would make sense cuz sometimes. a simple word, one word changing. something, a little change, >> a little bit of thing, an angle, how? Why? >> So, you do find your mother sexy and you.

do like harming small animals and you. are fascinated with fire cuz at the. beginning of the test, you weren't, you. know. >> Yeah. Well, I have. >> and then they walk you out. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Yeah. So, I have some hobbies, you know. Awesome. >> But uh but no, I I love what you're. saying, man. The turn of phrase a little. bitty bit can lead to something so. different. And also sometimes just. waiting when somebody thinks you're. going to talk, just waiting. >> and then their energy sometimes, >> oh yeah, it starts eating them up. >> Yeah. Got to fill the space. I got to. say something. >> cuz what does their silence mean? Is.

their silence mean something? Yeah. >> You know, and then you start to. interpret in your head, what does their. silence mean? And that's kind of a crazy. >> So maybe I was maybe I wasn't completely. truthful, but uh. >> and maybe I wasn't completely clothed. you know. Um, yeah, man. Wow. Yeah, this. is interesting stuff. Thanks for your. time today, man. >> Thank you for having me. >> Okay, so you get through you get through. the testing, you pass that. >> and then you were in When do people go. to Quanico? Is that then? >> Well, pretty much I don't know. >> because that's what you hear about on. all the movies. >> It Yeah, if you It depends on uh I know.

you have to pass phase two. Okay. But I. can't remember when the polygraph falls. in and when the physical fitness test. But basically all that you're going to. go to phase one. You're going to. polygraph background. Huge background. Thorough thorough background because you. could you're going to be going into a. job where you could get top secret. clearance. >> So yeah, it's it's like they know. everything. Every credit card you got, any any debt you've got. >> Did you have to sit and tell some. secrets and stuff about yourself that. you didn't want to tell or how. >> No, because I'm transparent. That's just.

me. I mean, I'll just tell them. I mean, I'm not going to hold it back. I'm not. going to lie. And really in the FBI, I. don't know right now because I didn't. work under cash, but um I retired under. Ray and I came in under Louis Free. But. if you lie under inquiry, then that's. recorded. You're kind of dead to us. because you can't go testify anymore. If. you can't go build a case because you're. going to have to release that you were. caught lying. >> and then the defense is going to eat you. apart. So,

>> so the truth has to the truth is the. only way to get there, >> right? So, the I've seen some people do. some or have read about in in quarterly. reports some things that employees have. done whether they're uh whether they're. gun toers or whether they're. professional staff. But in mitigation, if they didn't lie, I mean, they're. going to try to get you help and stuff. But but then you read the next thing and. it's like, oh, somebody was called to. the table on time and attendance fraud. like they were fudging the numbers. Under inquiry, they lied. Dismissed,

>> fired. >> And you're like, >> well, if I've learned anything, don't. lie. >> Don't lie. >> Don't lie. [laughter]. >> Wow. And it's crazy that you would then. end up in a world where you're going. undercover where it's like, okay, now. >> now I'm lying. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Except for now. >> Now I'm going back to Scott. Yeah. >> As you guys know, Moon Pay is my go-to. place to buy crypto. And now they just. launched something new. It's called Moon. Pay Agents. It's tech that lets AI.

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That's betterhp.com. Um, tell me a little bit about the. training for FBI Scott. >> So, it's pretty standard uh test. It's. like the Cooper Institute standard, but. but basically when I came in, you had to. be able to pass a two-mile run in a. certain amount of time. You had to be. able to do uh had a sprint course they. called the shuttle run. You start on. your back, you sprint like 25 yards, turn on a cone, back down, back down, that kind of stuff. And then push-ups,

sit-ups, pull-ups. Um, but that's just. the pass or fail stuff. And then you get. in and you basically live, I mean, Quantico, I look at it like the B, remember that old ' 80s movie, the. Biodome with Poly Shore and everybody, right? That's what I look at it like cuz. I have been in that building for four. days and and realize I have not gotten. fresh air. I've not stepped outside this. building. Yeah. Yeah. So you can go from. that's it. So you can go from that's. Jefferson right there at the front. That's where I stayed. You can go in and. from Jefferson you go down to the.

cafeteria. You get your breakfast and. then you go to class. You go to lunch. You go back. You can go to your room, go. to the gym, go to the boardroom at. night, hit the bar, go back and you. never step foot outside. >> Wow. >> And that's our track at the back. It. looks different now. Or you know what? No, they did put a building in the. middle of it now. Uh there used to be a. nice ropes course and all kinds of. stuff, but um a lot of running. a lot. more running than I ever did. I was I. was a lineman. So. >> So once you were there, that became a. big part of it was the physical. conditioning. >> Yeah. And you're in class all day.

You're learning all kinds of stuff. I. mean, you're getting legal. You're doing. this. And then we're in Hogan's Alley. learning tactics, um firearms range, learning how to be a better shooter. Um. >> what was one of the more unique classes. kind of that you took that kind of stood. out? >> I always loved anything forensics. Like. even though we all know how the uh uh OJ. Simpson trial turned out and everything, but if you have a forensics person come. in and break down exactly what was found. at that, it it just got screwed up how. it was collected and then the defense.

did what they were supposed to do. They. created doubt in the jury's mind. But. you can some stuff like that if a. forensics person comes in, they break. that down on like this is what we found. here and and it's just getting better. and better with uh like I forget what. it's called, but now they can take your. there's something that's matching up. your DNA. Let's just say they're. clearing like a 30-y old case. >> Yeah. >> Because the DNA is there uh from that. original collection before we even knew. we were going to be able to test this. kind of stuff. And then they now they're.

going back and they can actually pull. things and you know how you kind of like. do that uh like almost like a 23 and me. or that genealogy thing. They're doing. that and they can narrow it down to like. almost that's it. >> Testing DNA on cold cases use COD. We. know that. >> genetic genealogy. >> Oh, genetic genealogy. There you go. If. COS has no match labs upload the profile. to public databases like GED match, which I'll tell you this out the gate. You do GED match, you gonna find some of. my family. I got that family, too. I'm I'm first.

first generation law enforcement. First. generation four year degree, >> bro. A lot of empty diploma frames in. our area. >> My dad dropped down to 10th grade, >> did he? >> And he said he stopped paying attention. in the eighth. >> Oh, 10's good. Um Yeah. Oh, yeah. G was. that was a popular uh pastime in our. area. Um. >> so they just cleared one. I was I was. putting on training somewhere and. somebody was telling me how they just. cleared this case. >> That's amazing. Um, and it was it's they. did that and they were able to use that. family genealogy to narrow it down to,

oh my goodness, this is one of the. suspects that they interviewed and this. is one. >> Wow. So, yeah. >> So, 30 years later, somebody's getting. cuffs put on them. >> Dang. >> I love that, dude. >> I feel like you can feel the timeline of. existence breathe a little deeper when. justice is served. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I like that. I like a little bit of. justice. Why? So, and so how long is the. whole overall training for the for for. >> FBI? FBI. It's somewhere around five. months. Sometimes it adds another month. and but but it's somewhere around five. months. >> And what percentage of people do they. eliminate sort of along the way or is.

that. >> you know I Well, it depends. It it it's. a case by case basis. There was a time. where I would go back and and I would. because I was a firearms instructor, tactical instructor, undercover guy and. all that stuff. But I would be back at. Quantico with my peers uh who were in. those units and you'd look at the class. and you'd be like look at the last class. and you see like half of them failed. I'm like what what is going on? Kind of. es and flows. I don't I don't think half. failure is normal, >> but I'm not there every day, so I don't. know. >> Got it. And when did your undercover. work start? Did that start uh from the.

FBI? >> No, it started at the sheriff's office. So, once I made Vice and Narcotics. Investigator, um you have an opportunity. to go to undercover techniques or. technical surveillance. These are. classes that they were put on in in. Colombia, South Carolina at the uh. criminal justice academy. And once you. get certified in that, then they'd let. you go work undercover. But [laughter] I. mean, just just picture me now. Number. one, I don't want to mess up. Number. two, you're around you're around a bunch. of older guys and gals who are seasoned. and and street level buys and all this.

stuff and I'm just trying to you're. going to have to show up. You got, you. know, it's not up to them to like me, it's up to me to get them to like me, right? Got it. >> Um. >> Yeah. You got to ingratiate yourself. Yeah. And it's [clears throat] a tough. crowd. Uh usually is military, law. enforcement. We're pretty we're pretty. tough crowds. So imagine me number one. not wanting to screw up, number two. being scared to death, and number three. thinking about them watching it and not. wanting to screw up in front of them, too. So like Gary Ward and some of those. people, you know. Um but uh yeah, I.

[laughter]. mean the first crack rock I bought, I. was probably 275 lbs with low body fat, you know, just jacked. And I'm like, I. don't look like I smoke crack unless I. just started [laughter] I just started. back, you know. I buy a crack rock and drive around for. 15 minutes and come back and buy another. one. That's I'm not the guy smoking it, you know. >> And so, so something like that, that's a. real instance. You have to come back and. buy another one. And would you have to. seem cracked out when you came back. around? >> Well, what I was told cuz I never smoked.

crack was that it would wear off in 15. minutes. That's why they didn't care if. you came back and bought again. So, I. Yeah. But they were probably giving me. little slivers of soap or something. Who. knows? >> But once I did it, the bug got me. >> Yeah. >> Like the like the undercover bug. I. don't know what it was. It's not lying. It's not like, you know, I I I used to. like it's the infiltration. Yeah. I. mean, getting to know people, but during. the book process, I can't remember what. I used to term it as, but now I just. realized I go, "Holy crap, I just love. connecting with people." Wow.

>> I don't care even if you even if I get. called out at 3:00 in the morning cuz I. was considered a good interviewer. So, you know, to either get information, a. confession, or, you know, flip them and. maybe they work with us. And I would go. and uh I didn't mind getting called out. like that. And and I love it. The. crazier the better. I mean, rich, poor, big, tall, smart, dumb. I love it all. >> Did you guys have groups that would like. like say you go on like you're get put. on an assignment? Is that what it's. called basically? Yeah. For undercover. >> Um and they could be very small or they. could be bigger ones, deeper deeper or.

shallow ones. Um. >> do they do you go to like wardrobe and. stuff like that? Like do they have all. of that? Like who creates your. backstory? How does all that happen? >> I say ultimately ultimately it's on you. Um and what I teach and what Oh, what? I. know, right? You know, you going to come. out? I I believe I did used to call the. unit. I'd go, "When are you going to. call me for?" Because I was big country, even though I'm not big anymore, but. they they like I'd call headquarters and. I'd go, "When are you going to let me do. one of those Wall Street jobs, you know, one of these big old tycoon jobs?" And. they're like, "No." And I'm like, "I can.

say bye, sell, you know, put a big hat. on and have that boss hog long horn on. the front of my car rolling in the" And. they're like, "No." And I go, "Fine.". Cuz it's my skill set. My skill set. leads me to back woods with methheads. and white supremacists and whatever. else, you know. >> Oh yeah, dude. Those are some of my. neighbors probably. Um, what what were. some of those early spots that you got. put into? >> Um, well, early on at the sheriff's. office, it was the, you know, you got to. go buy a crack rock, which was. terrifying to me. And then it might be.

picked. Yeah. Cuz I never bought crack. I'm pulling down there, man. I I barely. cracked the window, you know. I was just. like, they go, "What you want?" Cuz they. come up around the car, you go, "What. you want?" I'm like, I want a 20, you. know. [laughter]. He's like, roll down the window, you. idiot. You know, I'm like, I'm just. sliding money through the [laughter]. >> Let me Venmo. They didn't have no Venmo back then. That' have been good, though. What's. your cash at, bro? You know, [laughter]. I'll send it to you right now. >> Oh, dang, man. >> That's pretty good. And then type in.

what's it for? Drugs. >> Yeah. Crack. >> Uh, yeah. But that that was the odd. stuff there. But I started I started. [clears throat] cutting my teeth. But. when I got in the FBI, >> um, my first long-term, I mean, I was. doing some cameo stuff, which a cameo is. basically what it sounds like, like on a. TV show. You're there just to help. somebody else or it's a quick, it's not. even a full-blown undercover operation. It's just going to be one meat. >> Like, give me an example of that. >> Like a like a a buy bus or we're going. to deliver. Uh, LA takes off a huge load.

of dope. It's supposed to be coming to. New York. So, LA gets on the phone with. FBI in New York. We're like, "Okay, what. does it look like? We want measurements, all this." We would go build the exact. same shipment and then we would deliver. it to where it was supposed to go so we. can get the bad guys on that end. >> No. >> And that's just a one time. So I mean. I'm in a truck with an NYPD detective. and we're just dirtied up and going to. deliver. >> So in that way were you able to bust. both ends of the of the. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> What is the reason that they would do it. like that as opposed to just showing up. at the actual meat? >> Because sometimes you don't know if it's.

getting delivered to a fictitious. address or where is it going to go. But. we were delivering it and and it depends. on the assistant United States attorney. cuz everybody's a little different. So. maybe this one says this is all I need. to charge them. Somebody might be a. little bit more thorough. They go no I I. want to actually know that they open the. box. Well, how can we do that? Well, let's build something so we when we walk. away, it's not enough that they take. possession. We want to walk away and. know that they popped the box before we. hit it. >> And how would you guys know that? Would. you guys put cameras in the box?

>> Oh, something some tech guy is going to. do something. I mean, there's so much. technology now. I mean, I don't know. what they can do. Yeah. >> But of course, most people watch TV and. think we can do stuff we can't anyway. >> Is that true? >> Well, I don't It's getting better. I I. saw I've seen some things since I. retired. I'm not going to say what they. are because it's tradecraftraft, but it. really made me want to go back. undercover just to use it for a. recording device. I was like, I cannot. believe. I'm like, you know. >> Well, they just had those SUVs that they. bought. I think they had Israeli. technology in them. I don't if you saw. that. There was these SUVs that. allegedly can drive by an area and and.

read your phone basically. Can you bring. that up, Trevan? >> Uh, it's probably like if you're on. Bluetooth or Wi-Fi and it's it's pulling. stuff off your phones. >> Israel's Palunteer rival is selling $1. million spy vans to US cops. Is this a. recent story? Because this was like. three days ago. Oh, yeah. This is good. There we go. Let me see. Cognite, which. sells technology to snoop on phone. locations largely in Israel and Europe, is making inroads in America by tricking. out trucks with spy tech. Texas State. Police's purchase of four brand new.

Chevy Taho this March was unusual, not. just because of the staggering $4.5. million price tag, but because the. vehicles were kitted out with technology. that could monitor the locations of. nearby cell phones. Made by Israeli. surveillance company Cognite. The tech. simulates a mobile phone tower which. forces nearby phones to connect to it. that enables cops to keep tabs on any. phones in the vicinity whether they're. owned by a suspect in a case or not. >> Huh. >> You're going to have some issues there.

Uh because I I'm reading I'm listening. to what you're reading, >> but I'm telling you, you've got the. Fourth Amendment protection. So, if I'm. going to be able to track you, at a. minimum, I'm probably going to have to. get a court order. Uh, a lot of places, a lot of times now, you have to get a. full-blown search warrant. >> Do you think though that maybe they're. buying these in advance and they know. that the laws are going to change? >> That could be, but I can tell you right. now if somebody's coming by and pulling. your stuff um and they're actually. tracking you. I mean, like you can like. if say if you've got a scanner and.

you're riding through apartment complex. back in the day, you could pick up. different cell phones and stuff. Is that. I mean, is that a title three wire tap? Uh-huh. I mean, if you're using it for. evidence, it is. But. >> for us, like that's a huge invasion of. privacy for me. Everybody who listens to. your phone, a pin, register, trap, and. trace, that's just going to let me track. your phone and maybe see where you are. off of towers. I'll get to see phone. numbers coming in and calling in and. calling out and texting and texting out, but I can't read.

>> Got it. >> Well, I can't read the content. >> Got it. >> If you start getting into that kind of. stuff, uh, like if somebody puts a. camera in your house, that's a that's a. that's a title three. And it's and I. it's not easy to get. It's not TV. It's. not like, hey, I need to be on this. phone in five minutes. >> It's different. >> We can now you can you can track a phone. in an emergency. Uh or there are some. it's maybe it's harder, especially if. you got a burner phone, but um there are. things like if somebody's missing or. it's a threat to life or maybe a cop.

goes down and we're trying or somebody's. we're trying to do that. That's that's a. we might be able to expedite it a little. bit, but you're still going to get some. type of order. >> Got it. And now sometimes it seems like. uh that police or FBI, they may use. these tactics for the moment knowing. that they're not just to to behoove them. to advance in whatever that moment is to. have strategy knowing that it may not. hold up in court later. >> Well, I wouldn't do that. I really I for.

me Oh, >> but does it make sense what I'm saying? I know it does. It does. But we're. [clears throat]. >> the way I've always done it. >> Like do it now. Ask Ask permission later. like that. So, you know what I'm saying? >> Ask for forgiveness, >> right? Ask forgiveness. It seems like I. could see that being a part of maybe the. strategy. I don't know. >> Well, that would be on the spot kind of. thing. But generally, or for let's just. say for the most part, I would not I'm. retired. I'm not bonded right now. Um, but I wouldn't build a bad case or do.

something like that because that's a. violation. But if there was a gray area, if if. this is just me personally speaking, I'm. not saying it's covered, it's not. covered by policy, but there have been. horrific cases where. girl, young girl goes missing. Uh, I'm. kicking myself for not remembering her. name right now, but she goes missing in. Florida and everybody's looking for her. So, you go out and you start canvasing. the neighborhood. Well, you might look. and you can see, "Hey, man, we've got.

like registered sex offenders right here. where she went missing." Well, that's. the first doors I'm knocking on. >> Mhm. >> Sorry if that offends you, but you're a. registered sex offender. >> Yeah. >> And uh your trade. >> Yeah. And and they're and and they after. the fact they found her. She was dead. She was buried alive with her with her. stuffed animal. But in the original. canvas, they went and talked to the guy. at the trailer that was holding her, but. they never got in. >> So me, uh, that I would I would violate.

I'm getting in there. >> If you feel it, >> yeah, I'm getting then if Oh, you don't. have a problem. You're not holding. anything. You mind if I walk in here and. look? >> And if you say, "No, well, okay. Well, we'll find a way to get in here.". >> Right. >> But I'm not leaving. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? Have you had. instances like that where you had to. trust your instincts? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. As as a case agent. Well, not even as an undercover. But as. an undercover, you're in a situation and. you're you're basically playing chess. You're trying to be five steps ahead of. them, and they're thinking you're also.

like tennis. Like, I'm serving it to. you, and I have no idea which way you're. hitting it back, but I'm over here. going, you know, I'm at goalie. I don't. know what you're throwing, but I'm I'm. trying to be ready. um as a case agent. out there trying to um call a shot call. call shots right there on the spot, you. know. Um I had a case uh. in in Macallen, Texas, where I was at. for six and a half years. And what it. was is that the. the they were undocumented aliens being.

smuggled in. We get the call because the. undocumented family is already in. Virginia. They had paid for two sisters. and a daughter to come through. And what. happened is the smuggling organization. got them across the river. So you get. them across the river, at least in the. Rio Grand Valley. You get them across. the river and then they're usually at a. staging location, a house or something. because now they've got to get picked up. by a coyote, a walker, and they're going. to be handed off and now they're going. to be walked through the brush around. the checkpoints to where they'll be. picked up and then carried to wherever.

Um, [clears throat] where this one. happened was one of the sisters was. physically and mentally challenged and. they left her in the brush to dry to. die. They left her in the brush to die. and border patrol found her. She was 16, but they couldn't figure out a lot. So, they called Child Protective Services. They came over and were able to figure. out, you've got family. They actually. figured out that the other family was in. Virginia and they were now being. extorted. They got him across the river, got them into a house, and now they're.

calling saying, "Hey, we already dumped. one of your sisters. Your 5-year-old. daughter's sick, and we're not getting. her anything to make her better unless. you pay us more money." God. >> So, they're extorting them even though. they paid. And in my mind, I think. that's truly a victim. Even though. undocumented alien is is is an illegal. charge, but I'm not working undocumented. alien. I'm working kidnapping, extortion. >> Well, yeah. Especially if I mean, I. think there's a moral code inside of a. lot of us. Yeah. where you have to. decide what's going on, you know, and. and and sometimes you can't even decide. It's just a built-in thing. You're like,

"This is how I'm going to operate in. this space." Right. It's a very human. thing. >> Yeah. So, in that case particularly, we're probably running for 3 4 days. non-stop cuz we're trying to find this. phone that they're calling on that that. the bad guys are using to call the. family. I've already hit FBI up in. Virginia and say, "Hey, can you go over. and give them recording devices, all. that, all the stuff they need?" And uh. it was a Honduran family and about that. third day we're out and all we know is.

that the phone like I said just location. stuff. It's not I'm not giving away. >> you're not getting text messages. You're. just getting some location tags or. >> but it's not it's not like it's always. it's not always pinpoint you know. It's. not like hey that's it moving right. there 10 feet away. That's right. >> Not at least when I was working it then. and we know pretty much that the phone. is somewhere in the store and they're. like, "Hey, it's moving." And then at. the same time, four different people. come out and they're all walking into. the cars and we've been up for 3 days. straight and we're all most of us are.

parents, which doesn't matter if you're. parent or not, you're still going to be. like, "But you're you're getting. personally involved in this case because. it's a 5-year-old girl." And uh I had to. make the call. They're like, "What are. you?" Cuz I was leading it and they're. like, "Which one?" And I'm like looking. at I'm going a son of a I'm going okay. here we are. Here we are. Here we are. >> Yeah. It's like the mass singer or. whatever. >> Yeah. I'm like come on Lord. And I'm. like hit me. And then I'm like let's go. with that one. And we follow it away and. get to a point to where that one stops. and uh then we were able to say yep the.

phone moved and it's somewhere close to. there. So then we go in and hit the. house but the house didn't have the. undocumented people in it. >> It had it had the guy had the ledgers. had all the names. Of course the phone. was in there. They were trying to fl. they were trying to flush stuff and. everything. We get in there and uh got. the phones on and I call the bad guy. phone and it rings and I go, "It's you.". So, we do a long interrogation and. luckily the guy broke and took us to the. stash house and we and we recovered the. girl and her sister. Yeah.

>> Amen. >> And of course, we're all crying back. All the all the grown men, the my friend. who's a female border patrol agent, she's like she's looking at all of us. are like, [cough]. [clears throat] you know, cuz we put the. young girl on the phone with her. Honduran mother and she's like, "Mommy.". And you know, she still had her school. girl outfit on and man, they want to. dry. They want to dry. >> Dang. Knock knock. Who's there? Knock knock. knock. That's the sound of your bed post when. you're on that blue chew gold.

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because I I mean, you know, it's like. But but again, Yeah. But think about it. Say you're I'm like I've I've. interviewed not this not not that case, but you're interviewing somebody that's. his nickname is Ela. It's because the. cartel's already cut two of his fingers. off. >> They've been tortured. They've been all. >> me yelling at them. How How am I going. to work this to where I can get. something. >> Wow. >> out of you. I can't I can't chop your. fingers off, >> right? >> We have a constitution. >> Yeah, [laughter]. >> that would be frowned upon.

>> Yeah, maybe. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, you got to. you've hoped to play by the rules. >> Yeah. >> Did you see some pretty severe stuff. that came across the board? Like, how. how intense is some of those scenarios. and stuff down there? Like, you hear so. much about the cartels and like the. level of violence that's like um almost. something that we can't even maybe. fathom sometimes. A lot of people don't. um. they value life a little differently. I'm not saying Hispanics cuz I. somebody's going to say, "Oh, you're.

saying all Hispanic." No, I'm not. I. love I mean I got tons of Latino friends. and uh but the cartel at the time I was. down there, Ozel Cardanis was running. it. Um which once Department of Justice. took him off, it actually created a. vacuum because now everybody's like, "Well, who's going to run the Gulf. cartel?" And then you got the enforcers, the satas that are saying, you know. what, we're the ones that kidnap. everybody and torture them. We're going. to run it. And then you got maybe the. government saying they're going to do. it. And then Senoa cartel comes in and. says, we're taking over. And then you.

just end up with a bunch of heads and. bags and vans. >> Really? >> Yeah. I mean, it's you would. >> Is that a real thing? Heads and bags and. vans. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you like it was. getting bad enough to where this was. shortly after I left, but it was getting. bad enough to where because everybody's. vying for the territory. If you're in a. territory and you have a decent vehicle, >> like looks like you've got some kind of. money because there's really not a lot. of middle class. You're either low or. high. >> and you're going through the wrong. territory, neighborhood, whatever. And. and maybe it's the SAT that's going,

>> "Well, you're not one of us. Are you one. of the senior cartel?" And they pull it. over and I mean, yeah, then there's. there's been innocent bystanders lost, you know, because they didn't know any. better. And you know, >> man, I almost invested in a damn zoo. down there in Sinoa with a buddy of. mine. We almost bought into a zoo down. there. >> Well, I mean, I've never been to Siloa, so that's probably like a lot of places. that are. >> outside the United States. There's going. to Well, it's just like in the United. States. There's there's going to be good. and bad. Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. My friend Andrew just went. fishing down there, and he said he had.

one of the best experiences of his whole. life. Some of the greatest fishing he's. ever done. >> Yeah. >> Um, what what's what smuggling did you. see? Did you see any human trafficking? We hear about we hear about that term so. much. What did what what did you see? >> So when I got there, I was working. drugs. Obviously, you're on the border, but you got every federal agency there. Legacy ICE, DEA, ATF, US, FBI, >> DTF, if there's some hotties, huh? [laughter]. >> Yeah. I saw all kinds of stuff. When I.

got down there, I was working drugs at. first. Um I mean, it could be 50 kilos. of cocaine in a tire. >> You see that much? What's the most you. ever saw, man? >> Uh, I personally probably. getting to that 100 kilo mark. >> How much is that? Show me with your. hands. >> Well, a kilo is 2.2 lbs. So, 100 of. those. >> Wow. I saw two eight balls once. >> I know. Way bigger than that. >> in Destin. It was in Destin. >> Yeah. Two eight balls. I used to buy. them five at a time. Undercover. Undercover. >> Undercover all the time. Yeah.

>> Dang. >> But you get deeper and you get into more. serious. Now you're getting up to like. ounces. You're getting up to kilob buys. And. >> so you'd see real that much cocaine. You. saw it real. Yeah. >> Real cocaine. >> Yeah. Yeah. But that's. >> And was it hard was it hard not to smile. when you saw it? >> No. You smile after the take down and. then you get your you get the you get. the photo. You go up there and do your. uh trophy shot, you know. But but that's. nothing. Just picture if you were. working in Miami and then like I'm. saying where I worked, man, 100 kilos or.

you but you go down the border. Well, man, you can trip over 500 lb just. riding up and down the river. >> Yeah. >> Um cuz it's so porous and stuff, but the. biggest weed seizure I got was 5,000 lb. >> Wow. >> We literally filled up two truck. I. mean, my truck was loaded. I was sitting. in the seat like this just I could even. It was just packed. And we loaded. another truck. That's It was a lot. >> Did you even get a buzz driving with it? Cuz you smell it. Was it that strong of. a smell? >> No, it's strong. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But uh dude, one time me and my.

friend Billy Conforto, RIP, and he was. one of the he was one of the first, um. gay male prize fighters in America, but. he um we got taken out of a car. We had. some uh weed on us, some pounds of weed. The cops pulled us over like So he. put it in our front like in our pants. Yeah. >> And the cop was like, "I'm going to sit. y'all in in in the cruiser while I. search the vehicle." So he sat us in. there and we we just had it in here. >> Was it wreaking though? >> Huh? Which could you smell it? I don't. know why he's thought that, but it was. like, well, he just put us in there. We.

had it in our So now we're sitting with. it in the cruiser. He searched the car. and then just said, "Okay, nothing to. see there. Put you guys back in it. You. guys take it easy." There you go. >> So, I don't know what made him think it. Maybe he did smell it originally, but we. fight another day. >> We got lucky that day. And we didn't do too much, you know, we. weren't doing anything real heavy over. there. And I think back then if you were. gay, you had to be high to even just get. through it. It was just a different. time. if you're prize fighting too, you. know. But um anyway, what were you. talking about? >> So, so I've seen a lot of the dope.

stuff, but just picture if you're in. Miami, like I just told you 100 kilos. and you think that's a lot. Well, what. if you bust open the hole of a ship and. you've got 2,000 kilos? I mean, that you. see that stuff and I'm like, I've never. seen 2,000, but I've seen I've seen some. big stacks. >> Does it get competitive to be on a big. bus? >> Yeah, sure. friendly competition or uh I. call it friendly uh you know DEA versus. FBI. Yeah, we always bust chops. Yeah. And you're working cases together. >> Um but then I switched to alien.

smuggling because at that point in time. in Macallen it. >> well I guess in the bureau it was. becoming a serious topic to look at. special interest alien smuggling. And. it's not just you're not saying, "Hey, I'm looking for the the normal um uh. human trafficking." Uh we are looking. for people being smuggled in from threat. countries. So like your threat. countries, Russia, China um. >> and why would they be being smuggled in? Like what is.

>> Well, that's what we're trying to figure. out. >> Got it. So. >> are they up to B? Are they up are they. going to come in here with nefarious. plans or are they legitimately trying to. get out of where they're at. >> is. >> to a better life? >> Got it. It's it's interesting to me that. like that that would be kind of an. assignment for you guys, right? Or or. like that would come down as part of the. uh detail. >> Y. >> but then at the same time you would have. the government that would like. lacadasically. it would seem allow people to come into. the country, >> right? Like it seems like they're trying.

to play both sides of the scale there. >> Yeah. I don't like it. Did it did it. ever feel to you like um like the. government was starting some of the. problems that the go that you guys were. then being hired to go and solve? Like. did it ever. >> Well, ATF's Fast and Furious, that would. be a Yes. I mean, you know, there's plenty of. document documentaries out there and and. some good books. Uh. >> oh. Is that I'm not even familiar with. that. >> Fast and Furious. That's when they. >> the movie. >> No, no, no, no, no, no. That was their. operation Fast and Furious where they.

were, it was it was alleged that they. were allowing guns to go to the cartel. and then those guns would show back up. Yeah. Those guns would show back up and. one of those guns killed the Border. Patrol agent. >> Wow. >> But you're smuggling. So, look at it. like this. And I'm not trying to bash. anybody. I mean, it doesn't seem like. it. >> Everybody Everybody's got Every agency. has their black eyes, but just look at. it this way. If I released a kilo of. cocaine into the streets and it came.

from me, an FBI agent, anybody gets. sick, hurt, killed over that, that. that's that's my fault. That's a. liability. So, I'm looking at it the. same way with fully automatic weapons. and stuff. >> Yeah. Uh, I just know that I know as a. case agent working what I've worked how. hard it is to get approvals for the. anything close to that. So, I was a. little dumbfounded at how. >> how that worked out, how. >> how the heck that happened. You know, >> let me just so our listeners know about. it. Um, Operation Fast and Furious is a. controversial 2009 and 2011 Bureau of.

Alcohol uh Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Sting. operation used a gunwalking tactic, letting illicit firearms pass to Mexican. cartels to track high level leaders, which failed when tracked weapons were. lost and used in violent crimes. Wow. So, they let them through to be able to. kind of maybe I guess they would tag. them or find some way to tra follow them. so they could know who these people were. that were getting them the high levels. But then those were used to kill our own. people. Yeah. >> Led by the Phoenix, Arizona field office. under Project Gunrunner. Um allowed.

straw buyers to illegally purchase. thousands of weapons with the intent to. trace them to major cartel leaders. Um. agents were ordered not to interdict or. seize weapons during purchases, losing. track of roughly 2,000 firearms. They. were exposed after the Border Patrol. agent Brian Terry was killed in 2010 by. rifles tied to the operation. uh. resulted in Attorney General Eric Holder. being held in contempt of Congress in. 2012 for withholding documents through a. Department of Justice report cleared of.

though a Department of Justice report. cleared him of direct knowledge of the. tactic. So was this this was happening. while you were working. >> Mhm. Yeah. Um and did that scare. >> and I'm probably going to get a lot of. hate from ATF. I'm sorry about that. I I. love ATF. I got a lot of friends at ATF. >> Well, I have a lot of friends that do a. lot of things and it doesn't mean that. their bosses or the people above them. may not be having some separate interest. at times, >> right? and and the FBI. were an easy target, too. They can they. can they can name plenty of things that. >> Oh, yeah. >> that organization's done, too.

>> But I was just thinking off the top of. my head like um and you know, you got to. be careful because like let me use an. example. Like I'm a vice narcotics. investigator. So, in Greenville, South. Carolina, at the time I was there, it. was illegal to gamble. >> Okay. >> So, maybe maybe we identify three major. gambling operations. Well, maybe we pop. one of the ones or go and interview them. and flip them, but the head of that one. is now giving us information on the. other two and we're working the other. two. But you don't want a whitey bulier. situation where you're letting this your. source go and wreak havoc for free while.

so it's always a you know what I mean? It's it's it's. >> it's a balance. >> Yeah. And that's that's why when we do. stuff like that, if if you're providing. information, we let you know what you. can and can't do. And I've told many. many sources that I've had for 28 years. career. Um, I'll be like, "Look, if you. do this, I cannot take up for you at. all, but if you call me before it. happens, I can take up." You know what I. mean? It's kind of that thing. >> Understood. Oh, wow. Yeah. Are there So, when dealing with informants, this has. got to be pretty fascinating. So, you. deal with a lot of informants.

>> A bunch for me, operating an informant for me is a lot. like undercover. And they they mesh. because when I'm an undercover, I'm. essentially being a source for another. FBI agent. It's just that I'm not a. criminal. I don't have a felon on my. record. I'm actually a bonded law. enforcement officer, but I'm still going. in and getting the information. I'm. still getting the recorded stuff. I'm. still that person. So, for me, when I'm. dealing with sources, I go, "You're. doing what I do on other cases, but I'm. asking you to do it for me.".

>> First of all, what what people in like. towns and regular towns in America are. actually up being like informants or. narcs or whatever because dude, when I. was in school, you'd always hear like. Ricky's a narc or whatever. You know, >> Yeah, dude. Ricky, bro, Ricky, it would. be like one kid like wore the wrong PE. outfit and like that guy's a. Narc. It was like Narc was the biggest. thing, bro. And people were and. sometimes you'd even find somebody who. got Yeah. snitch who got a little card. from like the local police department. that said they were helping them and. stuff like every now and then they had.

like this like I don't even think it was. laminated, bro. That got wet and. it didn't exist. >> Yeah. Um, but what types of people like. in towns are actually are the first. types of people you would get as. informants for for certain things or is. that not even a real thing like or like. at a high school? I'm just trying to. think where like. >> I would say it depends on what violation. you're working. >> Okay. If I'm working gangs and I'm. working transnational organized crime, uh, which is what I worked for a long. time, well, then maybe I'm going to try.

to find and develop a source that can. give me information on this like this. car, this whatever this this group. that's been bringing in drugs that we've. heard about or what if it's multiple. robberies. We're trying to find somebody. that knows something about, have you. heard any scatter? I mean, any skeletal. butt. Maybe you maybe you talk to ladies. of the night some prostites escorts and. say hey if you know you know things like. that but you can also be a high fallutin. case I'm saying high flutin because look. at me I'm not highutin but but it could.

be like a an espionage it could be like. a white collar case and maybe maybe the. sources for those are very upstanding. members of society and you can go talk. to them and say hey I was wondering if. you could give me some information. they'd be like I would love to give you. some information me. I'm talking when I. say developing sources when I was. working I'm like I'm talking about going. to somebody that you may never would. hang out with that you may think is a. piece of trash or not but those people. have never liked law enforcement and I'm. talking to that person and after a.

conversation I've heard things you you. hear things like uh man for a cop you. know for a cop you're not that bad or I. didn't know there were cops like you so. you just it's. >> it's on you but yeah I mean that's. that's the way I would do it and I do. think it goes hand in hand, but being if. if you don't know, in my opinion, if you. don't know how to develop and operate. sources, um I don't think you're. probably going to be an awesome. undercover. >> Did you ever have to pick like uh. disguises or was there like a war like.

Yeah. Did somebody help like fit you for. a scene? Did Did they give you a photo. or like a lookbook like, "Hey, here's. what you can wear and not wear." Were. there like was there ever a thing where. you couldn't wear a certain patch? like. if it was like a a certain gang. affiliation or something like how did. you manage that? Take me into a little. bit of that. >> Course it really comes down to the. intelligence of the case team that's. bringing you in. Hopefully they've done. their due diligence and as an undercover. you can ask those questions. Now is. there a wardrobe department? No. But do. we have things in the undercover program.

where maybe you could get some jewelry. and stuff like that? Yeah, we've got. that. But as far as like wearing the. wrong patch or not, that's going to be. again ultimately it's on me as the. undercover. Um like if I but if like if. I want to know [sighs]. >> if I if I want to know like if I ask for. a weapon that doesn't come back to law. enforcement, >> well I shouldn't just take their word. for it. I probably need to run that. number in NCIC to make sure it doesn't. come back to FBI quantico because I've. been on cases that that happened.

>> Like what does that mean? Like it means. like it so you got serial numbers on. your weapons. If they check that in. NCIC, it's going to come back to. something, right? >> Well, sometimes bad people have contacts. that can run that kind of stuff, whether. it's through corruption or whatever. >> Oh, I see. So, if your weapon has your. number on it and they see that. >> and they run it and it says, "Oh, this. is a Glock 22, uh, FBI, Quantico, >> right?" And that's. >> So, I was undercover and I'd requested a. fully covert web, whatever. It was. supposed to working with ATF and. everything and and I was probably.

six months in to the undercover. [laughter]. Somehow I was on the call with Quantico. and uh asking how we get the it was it's. it's drawn out. But basically uh the. guy's like whoa. At that point in time. he goes we really don't have any covert. weapon. And I was I looked I said go run. this weapon right now to the trainee and. they ran it. It said FBI Quanico. And. I'm like. >> I'm like bro I mean I could have just. carried my normal weapon. Yeah. That. goes back to Quanico too but really it's.

on you. But um for me now I'll tell you. what I have done. If I go in and I meet. a source. >> uh I'll ask them like sometimes my. beard's this long and long hair which is. getting less and less now. I'm I'm I'm. going to be thinning out here even more. soon. But um. >> looks healthy man. >> But you go the thing is is they'll go uh. I'll ask them hey I was on an undercover. meet the person we talk for hours. I'll. come back and meet them again because. I'm trying to figure out hey am I the. right fit? Do they is this going to.

work? Cuz we're going to be basically. undercover. Yeah, we're basically going. to be undercover together. And I'll say, "Does this work?" And they would look. and go, "No, man. That's too dirty. We're rednecks, but we're clean cut. rednecks." And I said, "Well, what do. you do?" I said, "How about like a nice. goatee? Is that a normal haircut?". They're like, "Yeah, that'd be perfect, man. Button-up shirt untucked." I'm. like, "Cool." Now, I'm just doing that. so I don't look like a like way out of. place. I want to look I'm I'm mirroring. them. >> Got it. Um, but for me, uh, I always. stuck really close to who I was. I was.

always Scott, different last name, but I. may or may not have played football in. college. I may or may not be a musician. and a singer, may or may not be married. with kids or four-year degree, but you. can bet most likely I ride motorcycles. and I lift weights, you know, and then. you just kind of go from there because. my jokes are literally the same. I'm. just twisting them because that it's. real to me, you know, I tell the true. story. Have you ever been in in in an. instance where you weren't even the best. choice for the role, but you ended up in.

it? >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, we call I mean, you can word it a right case, wrong. undercover. Right undercover, wrong. case, but uh I had a buddy of mine and. he was running he's an undercover as. well, but he was the case agent and he. was running this undercover on like a. dirty doctor selling pills or or giving. pills for sex and stuff like that. The. idea was because of my background to. come in and be the closer to get this. doctor on drug trafficking. Right. Got. it. >> And I came in and I'm I basically said I.

I'm a competitive powerlter but I'm. getting older. Bills are getting tight. and I need something for the pain kind. of thing. I was trying to do that. because they had already had a bunch of. reporting of like this this doctor like. you know uh uh a woman goes in for a. visit. She he prescribes her a bunch of. pills or whatever. She leaves and. there's a used condom in the trash can. Got it. >> And you're like, "Okay, all right." And. then maybe somebody reports, "Hey, this. doctor tried to do this to me or. something like that." So now I'm coming. in as a new patient and I knew a lot of. the pill meal stuff because I was.

working it as a case agent as well. Um. but um yeah, I was just the wrong guy. Like I did the first meet and then the. second time I came back, he starts. telling me, "Well, you know, Scott, sometimes people come in here and they. get these and they go sell them on the. street." And I was like, "I never said I. was going to do that." I said, "I'm in. pain, man." He's like, "What?" And I I. left the meeting that day and I went to. hand over the recording to the case. agent. It was my friend. And I told him, I said, "I'm not the right guy, man. You. don't need me to send me back in there.".

I said, "I don't know what it is, but he. does not like me. >> It just wasn't fit." Can you feel when. something doesn't fit? >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz if you. Yeah, you can feel it. Especially if. you're trying to force it, >> you know? And I tried a little bit that. day with that guy, but he was not. something about me. I don't know whether. he thought I was a snitch or a fed or. something or something, but he didn't. maybe he didn't feel he could control. me. Um, but I was not the right guy for. the job. >> What are some things isn't it undercover. just like general rule of thumb that you. don't want to do? It's like do you not. want to talk much? Like is there like.

you know are I guess is it case by case. basis I guess? >> Uh yeah. I mean it depends on I mean. there's actually attorney general. guidelines on what we can and can't do. Like we can't be involved in an act of. violence unless it's self-defense. Um, you can't like instigate the crime, you. know, cuz that'd be enttrapment, you. know what I mean? Um, instigate and run. the crime and then all of a sudden, now. you're under arrest, you know? >> Have there ever been romantic things. that happened along the way where it's. like there's almost temptation for that? Like where you met somebody you're like, well I'm spending half my days in.

this environment, you know? >> Uh, I've been in situations. where Yeah. Uh, but that's You don't do. that. You don't do that. I've seen other. things where, you know, maybe people. fall in love. It's just think about it. like this. If you've got my luck and I'm. doing a deep undercover and I'm at this. bar and you start hitting on me and I. actually is a single man and and and we. end up hooking up and dating, my luck, that's going to end up being the target.

sister or something. You know what I. mean? >> Is that frowned upon? Can you legally do. that though? >> No, it'd be a policy violation for sure. Got it. Yeah, it'd be it'd be a policy. violation. Now, maybe in like if you go. super eye spy, I don't know, you know, I. don't know all the CIA's rules. I don't. know MI5 and MI6's rules, but yeah, that. would be it would just be a bad. foundation, period. Even if that person. ended up not being um I'd rather you I'd. rather you bring in your real wife who.

isn't also an undercover FBI agent. >> Yeah. >> Then y'all just be you, you know, if you. got that. Do you think that most of us. interact with undercover. officers or agents within our lives. without even realizing it? >> I wouldn't say that because literally. like in the biker world they call it a. like you got the 1enter biker clubs they. say that if you're an undercover um in. in law enforcement you're a 1enter. because there's like 1% of law. enforcement that does undercover work.

>> I see. So you don't think most of us. have interacted probably with an. undercover agent without realizing it? >> You might have based on some of your. history. few times. [laughter]. >> Oh, yeah. >> You know what I mean? Depending on where. I'm at, I might have. But, you know, I. know. >> I'm surprised we haven't met. >> I know, right? But if I was at the uh if. I was at the Oakidge Laboratory, No, I'm. probably not running into an undercover. I don't think, you know, I don't know. Maybe you could be if you're trying to. sell, you know, uh uh classified material. then. Yeah. But I I wouldn't I wouldn't. I don't walk around like that. Yeah. I. don't. >> But it's not that common that most of us.

just regular people have interacted with. the undercover agent in our life. You. don't think so? I don't think so. >> Got it. What? >> Well, I don't think paranoid either. There are some people like, "What if. everybody in this room is an. intelligence officer?" I'm like, "What. if they are, >> right? >> They're trying to get information. I'm. trying to get information. Buy me a. drink.". >> Yeah. >> You know, pay for this steak. [laughter]. >> Um, yeah. What is a 1enter? You hear. about that term a lot. And that's a. gang, biker gang. >> Motorcycle clubs. If you are considered. a 1enter motorcycle club, let's see, after Vietnam War, um, and everybody.

should, well, I don't know about these. days. cuz who knows if they know about. Vietnam War, but you they would come in. uh the soldiers were coming back and. they weren't treated very well and there. was no kind of a transition thing, you. know, or decompression. Um and a lot of. the motorcycle clubs um I mean they. started back in World War II and stuff. like that, but a lot of these motorcycle. clubs uh were forming and they were. doing some, you know, rowdy stuff. So. the president of the American Motor.

American Motorcycle Association, I think. it's what it was called, comes out and. does this media blitz to say, "Hey, 99%. of all motorcycle riders are good. law-abiding citizens." So they took that. as a badge of honor and said, "Well, then we're the 1%. >> We're 1enters." And it's a patch on. there. >> on there. Yeah. So you it's your like. you see 1enter, you're going to see the. big ones. Hell's Angels, Outlaws, Mongols, They like to be the out. They. like to be the well, we're not the one. We're we're the we're the non-law about.

it. We're doing our own thing. I like. that. >> So, am I saying be Yeah, that's the. patch right there. Everybody always. asks, you know, they're like, "Well, are. you saying all 1enter biker clubs are. criminals?" I go, "No, but it kind of. goes with being a 1enter.". >> I mean, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. If you're not. >> I mean, I'm not saying that means you. got to go break the law, but you're. definitely not. >> It's just saying you got a edge on it. >> Yeah. You don't care about the law, basically. >> Yeah. you like a or you like to you got. some of your own laws as well. Yeah, >> that's what I think. >> The 1enter.

>> Man, this is it's all interesting, man. Cuz some of these terms I've heard. before and it's nice to just kind of get. to like hear them in the use of the. world that they're from. Um. >> take me into uh your experience with the. Outlaws, right? That's a biker gang you. were involved with where you went. undercover. >> Yes. Uh that was the longest one I did. Two years. >> Okay. >> I've I've done like if if I look back at. my career, I could be like, "Yeah, there. was a year and a half case. That was a. year and a half case." you go where the. case takes you a lot of times. >> Uh or the case ends because something. happened. They're like, "We're not doing.

this." Like something like somebody got. hurt or something. But, uh for the. outlaws, um I was already a certified. undercover. Um I had already done uh I. I'd already done several undercovers in. the bureau, but I had all the state and. local experience, too. And um. I was already roleplaying and helping at. the undercover school that we have. And. this is this is in South Carolina. >> Uh no, no, no, no. Uh by the time I was. doing that, I was living in Macallen, Texas. >> Okay, got it.

>> Yeah. So when I got when I got hired out. of the FBI. >> or when I got hired out of South. Carolina for the FBI, when I came out of. Quantico, my first office was in New. York City, which goes back to the. sergeant, which is funny cuz I did not. pick it as number one. It was like 36. out of 56. So when I went back for my. pick up my clothes and have the after. have the going away party for Scott, I. went up to I go, "Dude, you jinx me, man." I'm like, I got New York City. What is wrong? Um, but I was actually. assigned to New York when 911 happened, but the day of I was undercover.

>> I was in Texas, but so now I'm moved. down to Texas. I'm in Macallen. I'm a. case agent, so I'm still doing that. stuff. Firearms. >> Okay. So, Okay. So, you're down in. Macallen. >> Yeah. And then as a certified. undercover, I can't remember if if they. canvased through an email or did I get a. phone call from somebody cuz once you. start going back and role playinging and. teaching at the undercover school, I. mean the best way to describe it is. let's just say that scared me, man. [laughter]. Thought something bit me. My phone. vibrated. So I I get a call um because.

you're starting to get known if you're. role playing at the school and well. >> what do you mean at the school? So. there's an undercover school. >> to get certified just like just like to. become an FBI agent. I mean it's not 5. months. >> Hold on. So there's an undercover. school, an academy. >> Two two weeks. Yeah. >> And you learn how to be undercover. >> Well, you got to pass. Okay. >> It's not so much that you're learning, it's just that you're learning. techniques and stuff, but Jed, you got. to pass. >> And what are some of the techniques you. learn there? Sorry that I I didn't I. didn't grasp onto this before. Like is. it almost acting teachers that are there.

teaching? >> No. No. So, I won't give away everything. for the school, but I'll give away. what's kind of out there. Um, the FBI. undercover school is considered one of. the toughest certification schools the. FBI puts on. Some say it is the. toughest. I'll say HRT is the toughest. because HRT is tier one SWAT on. steroids. Uh, it's two weeks as well for. the try out. >> What does it mean HRT? >> Uh, hostage rescue team. >> Okay. >> So, you can be SWAT in all your. divisions. Like I was SWAT in in.

Macallen San Antonio division. And I was. SWAT in Knoxville. Um, but HRT is at. Quantico, based out of Quanico. >> Hell yeah. >> Hostage rescue team. And I mean, they're. high tier. They train with the tier one. teams. It's high speed, my high speed, you know, helicopters, all that stuff. Um, but. that one is also a twoe try out. Very. physical and mental. A lot of times, at. least from what I'm understanding, HRT, as you. >> Yeah, HRT. It's like you just want to. get through the two weeks without. getting injured. >> And you went through it? >> No. No, I was going to. If if I wouldn't. have got out of New York City, I was.

going to diet down to probably around. 250 lbs and then because there's a lot. of running and I was going to go try out. that. Does that mean I would have made. it? No. A lot of people don't ever I. don't know if I haven't known anybody. that made it their first time, but wow. >> But the undercover school is two weeks. Um. >> yeah. What are some of the course like. what do you guys So you're going to the. gist is this big on sleep deprivation. No days off. um that sleep deprivation. brings out weaknesses, right? So, you're.

going to be getting training during the. day. I might teach a block on the. outlaws. I might teach a block on white. supremacy cases that I've worked. Maybe. somebody else is teaching. Maybe it's. the legal person. Whatever. You're going. to get training during the day. And at. night, generally, uh the way it was run. when I was in at night, you're going to. be doing role playing scenarios. You're. probably going to get two a night and. everybody goes through every scenario. That way, there's no liability. In other. words, you can't say, "Hey, that. person's background is drugs and you. only gave them undercover drug. scenarios." Got it. >> You know, >> what's like a example scenario you would.

probably go through? >> They probably wouldn't want me to say. That's fair. >> Because it'll give it away. >> That's fair. >> But you say this, you're getting tested. You may die. >> You may die miserably in a scenario and. then you got to turn around and go, "All. right, buck up, little camper. We're. still got one more for the night." You. know, >> bro, if you go 0 for two in one night, bro. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then and I will tell. you this uh. >> I got certified in O2 2002. I started. role playinging in 2003 and I probably. only miss a handful of schools in my 23.

years of the FBI and I never knew or. heard of a 100% graduation rate. That. doesn't mean that it's hazing and none. of that stuff. It just means that it's a. great certification school and not. everybody's cut out for undercover. >> Understood. What do you think is the. number one thing that blows like an. officer's cover? Uh I blow in the cover. Oh man. Uh there. could be I mean bad bad bad. backstopping, bad having a bad legend, you slipping up and not knowing your.

stuff and your story or whatever. >> Yeah, you need to know it. And p picture. if you're undercover for two years. I. meet you on day one. Whatever I say. right now, >> I need to remember two years from now. So that's why I stuck close to who I. was, >> bro. And as I got older now in early in. the game, oh man, I was making like I'd. be undercover and I'd be signing my name. Scott Payne. And undercover I the P. would form and I'd go I'm Callaway and. I'd go, but then I'd be home as Scott. Payne and I would sign Scott Callaway. and you're like, "Dad gum it." But lucky. for me, I I ended up getting better at.

it. And by the time I was when I. retired, I think I had like eight. phones. I had like one FBI, one. personal, everything else was. undercover. >> Nuhuh. And I just I just get so I'd got. so good because I'd be like or I won't. say good because it sounds like I'm. chest beating, but it just it was easier. for me to do like I the phone would ring. and I'd see the skull and the color and. I go, "Okay, that's that case. What's. up, brother? How's it going?" Blah, blah, blah. You know, that's that case. Yeah. >> Dang, man. >> Yeah. >> So, at one time you were actively. involved in how many cases?

>> Oh, man. I don't So, there are again, I'll say it again. There are men and women out there have. done way more than me there. But I will. say that for my 23 years in the FBI, if. you were a full-time undercover, like. like you're not doing anything else with. undercover, that was pretty rare. >> uh as an FBI agent. Um because as I. said, I was still expected to run cases. and do whatever back in my office, you. know. So, um. >> But you were working full on full-time. undercover. Uh there was I know I can.

remember twice maybe there was a third. time that I was listed full-time. undercover in the FBI, but all the other. times I would it might be two weeks. undercover, but I go back home and then. I'm a case agent again and I've got to. run the training for everybody and. firearms and tactics. >> You ever do like chef work? You ever. been like a Cuz I could also see you I. just thought of this, man. I'm thinking. of ways I could see you doing undercover. and I'm thinking dessert chef [laughter]. >> or with a hat. >> Yes, with the hat. Because a lot of. those guys, you know, they'll have a. beard, they'll have some facial hair,

they have tattoos cuz it's a lot of. artist. >> Oh, no. Y can put the hairet on. Oh, totally. Yeah. >> It's artistic people that are are kind. of chefs. You know what I'm saying? It's. like that's kind of like an artistic. style. Screwing the. frosting pipet. >> You like the pepper. >> You put You want the pepper? >> You put a set of handcuffs on the Clair, you know. Yeah. I can see [laughter] you. I can see you doing something like that. Law enforcement thief. Pretty good. Was. there pretty but but most of the ones. that you did it was pretty close to who. you were though. >> Yeah. The exception would be when I got.

called for murder for hire cuz I'm a. jokester. Uh I got a pretty sick sense. of humor. Um I may know I just say this. I might not know a lot but I know funny. >> Yeah [laughter]. >> that's so sense of humor jovial. But. when I'm doing a murder for hire or what. I would call a closer, like if like if. you're somebody wanting to do something. bad and you're meeting me and you want a. bomb, I call that like a closer. Like. I'm providing you with a gun that you. want to go shoot up a synagogue or. something like that. Got it. >> I call that a closer. So those I my.

jovialness goes away. I never I mean I. wouldn't there's no point me really. building rapport with you because you. think I'm a stone cold killer. >> Got it. >> And the stone cold kill those are. usually quicker cases too. >> Have there been some murder for hires. that you got involved in? >> Oh yeah, really a lot. And who's often. trying to kill whom? >> Uh, >> is there a commonality there? >> Uh, well, I would say it would be. spousal, right? Would probably be the. most, but it would be like. wife, cheating wife and her the man.

she's cheating with solicit me to kill. the husband because there's like a. $92,000 life insurance plan. Got it. I. never the stuff you see in the movies. and I mean I've known some of my mentors. that have done those $100,000 payment. hits. I'm like I no not in my world man. It was Yeah. >> It was 10 grand. I'll give you 10 Yeah. I'll give you 12 grand. >> Yeah. >> After we collect. >> the money, >> the insurance policy. I'm like, you're. telling me you want me to go kill. somebody on your word?

>> Wow. >> And we No, that's not how this works. >> Yeah. >> So give me something, you know. >> And where would they meet? Where does. somebody like that usually try to meet. you at for the first time? Like is there. a general place that people. >> I mean I've met them in hotel rooms. I've met them at their place. Uh. >> one of the ones that's in the book um I. got they believed we were bikers. I. brought in a task force officer. They. believe we were 1% are bikers and they. were hiring us to do four home invasions. and murder I think two or three people.

M. But what they do is they knew where. the dope was because the son was running. the dope and the money. So he knew of. four different drug dealers and he knew. where the cash was at, where the guns. were at, where the dope was at in every. house. >> Oh. >> So the plan was to do four home. invasions and then murder two of them. and then I get some money I guess. I. don't know. >> God, that seems like a lot. >> And she was she was a wild one, man. I. got this is later in my career. Uh, and. I.

[laughter]. I like I told you, I would joke around. and be like with headquarters, I'm like, "How come I don't get to go to like, you. know, overseas and how come I [laughter]. don't how come I don't get to get on big. boats, you know?" Yeah, I can get on one. if I'm cleaning it. You know what I. mean? [laughter]. I'm getting the chum out the back, you. know? >> Yeah. Why don't I get the big. >> What is this? Oh, I get to carry the. luggage. That's cool. Yeah. If I'm in a. fancy environment, it's because I was. muscle for the main person there. That's. it. Amen. Yeah. Sometimes you need that. guy to stand next to the guy. >> in the back,

>> you know. Uh but. >> was there ever were you ever in an. environment where somebody pulled out a. weapon and it was really. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, I have been. Um but let. me let me tell you about Tammy real. quick, though. >> Okay. >> So, >> yeah, tell me about Tammy. >> So, we go for this one case and it was. in Ohio. And this this late we think. we're we know we're going to meet the. husband and we thought it was the. husband's plan because we've talked to. somebody that's talked to them and we. know that they they're looking for. somebody to do this kind of thing. You. thought it was the husband's plan. >> Yeah. So, we go we go to the garage and. you know we're we're talking to the.

husband and he's like, "Well, it's not. my plan. It's my old ladies." And I'm. like, "Well, why are we talking to you then? Where's where's the old lady?" She's. like, "Oh, she's sleeping. We're all. staring. Awkward silence. You think I. should go wake her up?" I said, "I. didn't drive all the way out here to. talk to no one.". >> Yeah. >> We're going to do business. Let's do. business. He goes and wakes her up. She. hops in the truck in the front passenger. seat. They're in the back. She is. tweaking. She's clawing herself. Flakes. [snorts] of skin are going everywhere. We're probably inhaling it. You know,

it's Oh, you can cook up a little bit of. that skin. You can grill you up a little. bowl of. >> pork rinds. Yeah. >> Hit it. >> Smoke that. >> That's some pork rind. Um. >> that's some real pork. >> That's some pork rind, man. >> So, we're driving and as she's showing. us all these spots, she's like talking. off fast. She's kind of tweaking a. little bit. At least that's my opinion. I don't know if she was on drug. >> and she's hiring to kill the husband. No, she it was her idea. She just she I. mean the husband's involved, but it was. her idea. So, she's the one that gets in. the car cuz it's her son that's driving.

around the dope for these people. >> Got it. >> So, she's showing us these spots, but. while she's showing us these spots, she. starts talking all this crazy stuff. She's like, she's like, um, you know, I'm really into torture. So, if you need. anybody tortured that you bring, if you. I'm really big into it. And I'm like, okay. Driving. I'm like, all right. And. again, it's later in my career. I'm just. kind of I don't know if I'm nonchalant. or desensitized or whatever you want to. call it, but I'm driving. She says, "You. know that you can take uh I can get. graphic on here, right? Cuz it's. graphic." Okay. [laughter].

>> So, she says in the book anyway, >> she says, "You know, you can take a hanger and. bend it on the end and shove it into the. man's penis." Sorry, I hit the. microphone, so I said it again. >> That's all right. >> Bend a hanger on the end, shove it into. a man's penis, rip it back out, and then. pour salt in the womb. Nuh-uh. >> Now, the guys in the back are going, "Oh, goodness gra." Oh, man. And I'm. like, literally two weeks prior to that, I'd had my second lumbar fusion. The. surgery was great and an easy recovery, but they had messed up. I had to get dry.

cathed. So, as she's describing that, I'm like, I that's pretty much what I. felt two weeks ago, right? >> So, it's hitting home with you. >> Yeah. So, then she's like, and then you. can take there's another one you can do. You can take a PVC pipe and shove it up. somebody's anus, run barb wire up in it, and rip their anus from the inside out. Well, that's insane, >> right? And I'm looking at her and I'm. going, we pull up to the red light and I. lean over and I go, >> "Why are you so angry?" And she's like, >> "Yeah.". >> She said, I think one of the lines she I. don't know if she used it right then or. later, she said, "I've been unlucky in. love.".

>> Wow. >> So, as we're. >> She's talking damn I mean she's looking. at she's doing like it sounds like she's. doing side quest from Home Depot or. something in Laredo or whatever. Like. cuz that shit's I mean under cover in. Larredo. >> What is she talking about, dude? She. sounds just like an angry ex Lowe's. employee or whatever. >> So, we're driving and I'm like, "Are you. sure you don't want to kill these. people?" She goes, "No, no. Everybody. knows me around here, but if you need. somebody tortured, I can torture him.". But I'm like, "Oh my gosh." So, we pull. up to the next red light and she says, "You know, my husband, I told him never.

go on a bender again." She said he was. gone for three or four days up all the. time. I think it was cocaine she said he. was using, but went on a cocaine bender. She said he came back, she couldn't find. him. He came back. She said, "He passed. out so hard he didn't wake up." You know. what she did to him? And he's a skinny. man. She said, "So I went and got a 2x4. and I shoved it under his legs and I. took an industrial stapler and stapled. his scrotum to the board.". >> Oh. >> And he when he woke up from it, he's. trying to stand up, but it's stapled to.

the board behind him and he's he's. trying to move and he's screaming for. her to take it out. She said no. He had. to call his friend over to do it. We. confirmed it with the husband. >> No. >> I thought, man, she's got to be full of. it. And he said, "Nope, she did it.". >> And I said, "And you're still with her?". He said, "I ain't never had nobody do. nothing like that to me." And I'm like, "Well, dad, come. >> eat." It's love. Sometimes love is just. it's so it's violent. >> I know. And she and so when she said. that part. >> as as we're pulling up to stop um cuz. one of the the the task force officer,

he was like, he goes, "Man, remind me. never to piss you off." You know, one of. those things, you know, and uh when we. pulled up, you know, all that stuff's. running through my head, all the. scenarios. And we pull up, I go, "You. watch a lot of slasher flicks?" And she. goes, "That's all I watch." And I went, "Now it's making sense." She talking. about humid centipede, like sewing a. body into a body. And I'm like, "Good. gravy." I'm like, but in my mind, I'm. laughing to myself because I'm going, "These are my people. >> Yeah. >> This is what my skill set leads me. [laughter] to." You know what I mean?

>> I go back in the back woods and. somebody's talking. Not not not trying. to chastise anybody, but they're. talking. They don't have any teeth and. their lips aren't moving. I had to. revert back to my family, some some. distant people in my family to go, >> "No." Yeah. >> Okay. Now I know what they're saying. >> This where I belong. >> Now, now I know what they're saying. Cuz. at first I'm like, "What?" And I'm. going, "Oh, I know what you're saying.". >> Yeah. This what? Yeah. >> I'm translating. >> Oh, yeah. Well, you never really lose. where you're from, you know? Uh. >> just start hanging out with them. I'll. get more and more country. [laughter]. >> Oh, dude. Yeah. That happens quick. you.

go home and you just go. >> and home comes back to you, you know, because it's always been there. Sometimes it just like uh. >> it's s it's it sits on the sideline. sometimes where it's it's intermingled. with the new places you're at. >> Um was there ever any spaces where you. got involved and there was like um like. human s like any any type of like. sacrificial or like ceremonial stuff. that kind of went on? Yeah. I uh so. working domestic terrorism there started.

to we started seeing a shift where a lot. of the white supremacist groups were. claiming to be Odinist, right? They were. claiming to be pagans. Um but that's not. illegal. U and I've got some very good. friends who are pagans and they are. Odinist. So if if. >> Odinist, bring that up. O D I N I S Ts. >> Okay. Odinism. um is generally a racialoriented. practice that places the highest. fundamental view on the figure of Odin.

Uh Odinist pagan usually refers to a. Norse Germanic pagan who centers their. practice on the god Odin. But in modern. usage, the term Odinist is heavily. entangled with far-right radical. far-right racialist groups. In a. straightforward religious sense, Odinism. is a form of Germanic Norse paganism. that honors Odin as a chief deity along. with other Norse gods such as Thor, Freya, Freya, Freyer, and Fri. Um, can.

you give me any uh any better. information about. >> Yeah, because I'm going to disagree with. what that just said because that's what. I was getting ready to say. Okay. >> The pagan part right there, relationship. to pagan, that would read that. >> Okay. Because maybe they're tying the. word Odinist to white supremacy. But. that was what I was going to say that. true pagans are upset because you know. Hitler used a lot of Odinism stuff. You. would see like the Sonenrad, you would. see all the all the Norse type uh runes. and stuff, >> but that doesn't mean that they're white.

supremacist. So maybe you want to read. that. Odinism is a modern neopagan. religion that revives the ancient Norse. and Germanic worship of deities like. Odin and Thor, emphasizing personal. honor, bravery, and a connection to. nature. While many practitioners view it. as a universal nature-based faith, specific branches and extremist groups. have co-opted the movement as a racially. exclusive white supremacist ideology. Does that sound. >> Yes, that's that's what I was talking. about. >> Got it. So we started seeing a shift back, I.

guess you can say, because even under. the Hitler uh neo-Nazi stuff, you would. see a lot of uh Norse runes and Norse. mythology and and stuff like that. But. >> what years was this when you were seeing. this? >> Uh well, I mean, so the base case that. I'm going to talk about was 2019. We. took it down in 2020. >> Okay, got it. >> Yeah, I took it down in COVID year. So. you start seeing that and. >> I've got close friends who are pagans. and you look at the Assatric community. They are unhappy.

>> The Asatra community. >> Asatru is pagan. >> Assat. Yeah. Asatru. >> Asatru. >> Um so they believe in uh the Norse. pantheon. So what you read uh Thor, Freya, you know, >> Frier. >> Frier and Fri and. >> Odin uh is the Norse. But there's. >> forget about it. >> Forget about it. That's the Italian one. >> There's [laughter]. there's uh there there are other pan. other pantheons where people might be. like, "Oh, I'm an Egyptian pantheon or. whatever, but we started seeing this.

stuff." And if you go and look at. pagans, if like back uh well, I mean, you can find it in Christianity, too. There were sacrifices, right? Um so, >> yeah, the Bible has sacrifices in it. >> Yeah. Old Testament. Um so, one of the. cases I did, I whistled. Sorry. So, one. of the cases I did uh was into an. accelerationist group. So, I go into. great detail in the book, but it's like. if you ask the average person in. America, you know, what do you think a. white supremacist is? A lot of them,

they may know neo-Nazi, they may know. like a skin head or they're going to say. like KKK, clust hoods and robes and. stuff. That's not what this is. These. are accelerationist and they don't. believe that there's a political. solution to save the white race. They. believe that society is going to. collapse either on its own or from. man-made event man-made events. And they. want to speed that up. They want to. speed it up through guerilla warfare. tactics like just small hits. Just. picture like power grid goes down over. here, water systems poisoned over here,

train derailed over here, anything to. create chaos. >> Got it. >> Um I'm not saying it's the best game. plan in the world, and this may be hard. to wrap your mind around, >> but uh we they came onto our radar. um. from being online and recruiting and. >> so they were recruiting online. >> Mhm. And you and a lot of your. accelerations also uh groups were big on. what we call flying or stickering or. postering. So you'll put up a flyer and. it'll be like uh save your race, join.

the base, you know, survivalist group. There you go. And see that QR code. So. you'd scan that QR code and it takes you. right to Bitshoot and there's a. recruitment video right there. And. that's my picture right there. Yeah. I. mean that that those are Bibles being. burnt right there in that fire. >> They are. >> Yeah. If you blow it up, you'll see Holy. Bible on that picture. >> You can you can dim it down. I don't. even want to see that, but I believe. that it's happening. And so, and who's. the people on the left? Is this That's. [laughter] a Christmas thing they do on. the levey over there in Lafayette, is. it?

>> No, that'd be a 20 to 30 foot cross on. fire with diesel fuel. >> I don't understand it, man. >> I know. There's a lot of history in the. clue clutch clan. Um, >> wonder if we should have someone on. sometime just to learn even about it. There's Matt Damon. Yes, >> obviously he was involved. [laughter]. Um, sorry, Matt. >> That's cleancut. That's cleancut Scott. Payne. That's. >> Is it really? >> That's a Polaroid picture. Yeah, >> bro. Oh my god. I just realized. >> Yeah, that's not Dang, I do look like. Matt Damon right there, >> bro. You look like Matt Damon right now. >> No way.

>> I'm not even joking. Bring up. People. must tell you this all the time. >> No, I used to get confused for Toby. Keith all the time. >> No be Keith, dude. You look like Matt. Damon, dude. That's crazy, bro. >> That picture does actually look like. Matt Damon. I didn't never realize that. >> Matt Damon's going to play you in your. life story one day. That'd be pretty. wild. >> Um, okay. So, you're infiltrate. So, so. you get into this group with the bass. and and Yeah. So, yeah. How do things. escalate and what are you learning once. you get in? And you were telling me that. before I interrupted you go on. >> Um, so I'm going in to where they're.

posting because they're trying to. recruit and it would be like, you know, if you're interested, contact us at. thebass_1protonmail.com. Got it. >> Again, Proton Mail, thinking that it's. fully encrypted. Uh I think that one's. based out of Russia. I'm not sure. I. can't remember right now. But um so I I. I start liking some of their stuff. They. start responding back and then I start. emailing. So I go through like a week to. a week and a half of emailed questions, pretty thorough. What can you bring to. the table? This, that, and the other. And then I'm instructed to I mean my.

height, weight, ethnicity, all that. stuff. Um, and then it says, uh, um, if. you want to read that. Oh, Geneva, Switzerland. All right. Proton Mails in. Switzerland. >> Okay. Go on. >> All right. Um, >> thank you. >> So then I'm instructed to download the. the Wire app. It's called Wire. Operates. a lot like WhatsApp. Um, so. >> I'm told to download it, reach out, and. then on a Friday afternoon in July of. 2019, I did like an hour and 15 minute.

panel interview. I couldn't see them, but I could hear like four to five. voices. >> Really? And it was it were you guys. standing on two sides of a fence or. something or what was going on? >> It was just on the app. It was online. Yeah. So, I'm I'm just listening to them. and they're asking questions and like I. said, I don't know if they're going to. tell me to cut my phone on, show myself. And so, I'm I was in a club. >> I'm picturing some damn home improvement. type where you're standing over the. fence or whatever. >> I jumped I jumped in my truck and drove. uh to a abandoned parking lot and I was. making sure I had anything. I cleaned.

it. Make sure there's nothing in there. that says Scott Payne or anything like. that. >> See anything is to know where you're at. >> Just an old truck, you know. Um, >> so I did that interview and there was a. lot of stuff cuz the accelerationist. they b their their Bible is their Bible. is basically a book called Siege. That. book Siege was written by James Mason. He's a longtime white supremacist. He. created Adam Waffen, another. accelerationist group. Um,

>> but it's it's essentially a bunch of. interviews, but he idolizes like there's. a lot of Satanism in there. He idolizes. uh um Charles Manson, things like that. But there's a lot of that. For instance, uh accelerationist, let me say this. So, accelerationist, you know, you've seen. the white supremacists that are out on. the streets with picket signs and. yelling during pride rallies or. whatever. That's not an accelerationist. that the that per the siege method, number one, that makes you a target. Number two, lets everybody know who you.

are. Got it. Number three, it does. nothing for the cause is what they're. saying. So, we're going to do those. guerrilla warfare hits. >> Okay? >> That kind of thing. >> Bring that up again. Siege. I just want. to see that real quick and uh cite it. Uh Siege. Siege, the collective writings of James. Mason, an anthology of essays by the. neo-Nazi James Mason. After growing. disillusioned with the mass movement. approach of neo-Nazi movements, Mason. began advocating for white revolution. through terrorism. >> Bam. >> Um,

though the book was reviewed in several. periodicals upon its release and was. praised and distributed by the influent. influential white supremacist Tom Mezer, most neo-Nazis at the time either. ignored or criticized the book. Um. uh in 20 in the 2010s, the book found a. new audience among online younger. neo-Nazis due to the book's republic. republication by the neoascist forum. Iron March. >> In addition to its promotion of. neo-Naziism, it lionizes serial killers, mass murders, and Charles Manson. Um.

Siege advocates neo-Nazi lonewolf. terrorism. >> Yep. >> So, so let's let's let me go off of. that. >> Okay. So, the base, I do that interview. Uh, they ask me all kinds of stuff. I. answer best I can. Um, again, tennis, right? I don't know what they're. throwing at me. I'm just got to be. ready, right? Um, and then he tells me, I could tell who the leader is on there. because it's the deeper voice, but it. was Ronaldo Nazaro.

After they've explained to me what. accelerationist is, what the base. believes, siege culture, they gave me a. 24-hour rest period. And they said, "Because now I know what they're about, I can decide whether I really want to be. a part of it, and they can talk about. whether they want me to be a part of. it." Got it. And true to the word, 24. hours later on the Saturday, I got hit. Ping uh something to the effect of, "We'd like to have you in the. organization." And I said, "I'd be. honored." So they tell me, um, they go, "Where are you at?" I said, "East. Tennessee." And they said, "Well, the. closest sale, C L," cuz I know I got a.

country accent. C L the closest sale to. me was in North Georgia. Um, and then I. was contacted by the sale leader. But to. parlay off of what that said, um, terrorism siege, he he said, "Forget all. this grandstanding, go more terrorism, lone wolf attacks." So, a lot of people. don't know this. Al-Qaeda, translated to. English, is the base. >> Al-Qaeda's MO was three to five man. sales all over the world training for.

D-Day, waiting for the phone call. the. basis mo three to five man sales all. over the world training for that what. they call the bugaloo. >> if they're still calling it that I've. been retired for 5 years so um. >> and when you met them are these guys are. they aggressive like males what kind of. energy did you feel overall when you met. these guys. >> it depends but it wasn't like back in. the hammer skin uh white supremacy heavy. metal mosh pit crowd um But I don't want.

to get too much on a tangent, but I will. say this when I'm instructing. Um, number one, we don't like to say the. names of the the mass shooters. We don't. want to give them any credit. >> Amen. >> You know, I'll name every victim from. Calibine. Yeah. >> I'll name every victim from Charleston, >> every victim from Buffalo. Don't want to. say the kid's name or the or the. shooter's name, right? >> But sometimes when I'm teaching. undercover, I have to because we're. talking about a certain thing. But um. what I'll say to people cuz it sound.

like you were like, "Hey, were these. like jack dudes or whatever?" Um all. shapes and sizes. But what I tell people. is I said, "Don't underestimate.". If I showed you a picture of the kids. from Coline before Coline happened, what. would you say? If I showed you a picture. of the kid from the Aurora Theater. shooting, orange and yellowish hair, what would you say before that happened? Charleston, bold haircut, skinny kid, but they still killed a lot of people, right? >> So don't underestimate Because dead is. dead. >> Amen. >> We had a shooting here in Nashville.

>> Yeah. >> My buddy I'm I'm buddies with the guy. that had the pistol, >> the two shooters. Um I met him through. some other trainings and I just seen him. like within a month of that shooting. Um. and you know, just don't underestimate, you know. >> So I meet him and and when I'm they call. me. >> And what' you wear to meet him? Did you. have to I mean how do you even pick out. an outfit or. >> I wore like maybe like some hiking type. pants, you know? I didn't show up all. bikerish, but. I go to meet them and they tell me, they.

instruct me, "You come to Rome, Georgia. I want you to park here. I want you to. take a picture of the statue downtown. and then I want you to send it to me.". And and they're watching. I don't know. how many cuz at that point we knew we. were going to meet somebody who called. themselves TMBB. I didn't know he was. bringing a guy named Pestilence with. him. I didn't know. We just they're. they're trying to cover me. And I met. the case team that I even though we. talked on the phone, I'd never met him. before. So, I drive down to Rome, Georgia. Uh, because now I'm being. >> This is crazy. >> I know. Because now I'm being Now I'm.

being invited to meet him for a face tof. face vet. I like the vetting in real. life because I passed the other one. I. passed the I passed the emails. I passed. the interview panel. Now I got to pass a. face toface meeting. And when I met the. case team, again, we don't know really. who we're meeting or where we're going. We got an inkling, I think, uh, but I. know we didn't know everybody in the. group. We did not at all. Um, and. the weather was bad. So, it's like I. don't know. Can you get any kind of. aerial surveillance? Not when it's not. when it's raining and stuff like that.

>> And it's hard to light across in the. rain, too. So, you're not really going. to see. >> Well, the Okay. Accelerations don't do. the cross. Got it. My bad. >> Lighting. The KKK does. >> Got it. >> Um, so these guys are hiding. They're. all wearing Fleckarn camo because the. fleck pattern is German. They're. neo-Nazis, so they wear nothing but the. German pattern. That does not mean if. you have fleck on that you're white. supremacist. It just means that that's. what they wear. >> Yeah. >> So I I pull up uh meet the case team and. they're like, "Hey, we want to slap a. GPS tracker on my truck just in case.". And I'm like, "Yeah." So I said, "Your.

squad says [clears throat] that.". >> Yeah. Yeah. It's my team, my cover team. And cuz let me explain it this way. I. was assigned to Knoxville. So I'm a I'm. an FBI agent in Knoxville. Yeah. >> But because the targets lived in. Georgia. Yeah. Well, now you got Atlanta. field office and the Rome RA, which is. the satellite office out of. So, that's. who's going to be working that those. targets, right? >> So, I go down there to meet that cover. team or case team and we talk about some. stuff. I'll make some phone calls and I. see them kind of go under the back. driver's side quarter panel. So, I don't.

know where they put it, but I know it's. somewhere up in there. I pull up, I. can't find a parking spot. I'm going. back and forth on wire. Hey, man. I'm. here. I look, I found a spot, but it's. behind a coffee shop. I'm in a I think I. was in a a white Ford or something. I. can't remember what truck I was driving. on that trip, but gave them the. description of the truck and then they. go, "Okay, I see you." Um, and I see him. come walking. So, what comes walking up. is about a 21 year old and soon to be 21. and a 19 year old kid. TMBB, uh, is Luke.

Lane. He's about 6'2, maybe 220, 225, but kind of frumpy. Um, and then. Pestilence is uh Jacob, and he is kind. of more uh not goth, but more like black. metal, but he's got BDUs bloused into. his 8 in tactical boots and then a tank. top of some black metal band, you know, >> uh, shaved around the sides. >> Probably Guire, one of those. Instant. one of those ones. No, you I went. to No, I'm talking like we're going to. talk like probably like uh Hell Witch,

Sabat, uh Satanic Goat Ritual, those. kind of bands, you know, >> that kind of Yeah. >> Yeah. And and all it is, if you've ever. been to a concert like that, it's like. it's just constant wa. Home Depot noise. >> Yeah. [laughter]. It's like what I've seen played when. they're trying to break people at. Guantanamo Bay. That's what they're. playing in the background. >> Got it. Yeah. >> Uh with flashing lights and stuff. Or. like the accountant. like the account, you know, like Ben Affleck when he's in. there cuts it on. It's Yeah. >> Um, so they come walking up and uh, you.

know, it's first meet, so clearly I'm. clean because I don't know what they're. going to I mean, if they're doing their. wherewithal, they're going to check me, right? >> How many times in your head do you go. over, okay, is there nothing like am I. missing anything? Like that would have. to be. >> a lot. And and like I'll selfch check. I. may even have somebody check me. >> for sure. >> I I may clean my truck, but I mean, hey, search my truck. Is there anything on. here that would let you know my truck? Yeah. >> I mean, what if you just got dry. cleaning and your and your tags in. there, you know? >> Oh, yeah. >> Or or prescription medicine and it's in.

your real name, you know. >> So, they're walking up there, you guys. are behind the coffee shop. >> Yep. And he comes up and he says he, you. know, I'm like, "Hey, I'm I came in. It's White Warrior 88." I'm like, "Hey, I'm I'm White Warrior." He's like, "I'm. TMBB. It's best, man. Cool. Little. nicities and then I need you to put your. phone in airplane mode." I said, "Okay.". I put it on airplane mode and he pulls. out this thing. It looks like the geer. counter, man. Had like a triangle card. on it. It was big. All kinds of lights. and stuff on it. I'm like, "What the. heck is that?". >> So, he wands me and nothing. I'm cool. He starts wanding the inside of the.

truck and I'm like, "All right." As he's. walking down the side of the truck, that. thing starts going nuts. It's getting. louder and louder and lights are going. off on it. And I'm like, "Oh, no." It's. picking up the GPS tracker. And he's. walking. He gets right to the back. fender. And I'm like, I I've already. eased my right leg back. I'm starting to. get in that stance because I'm like it's. getting ready to go. I'm because who. knows what's going to happen right now. >> Yeah. >> Um I don't know if they're armed or not. I'm gonna assume they are. Um. >> and right when it was it was going it's.

going nuts. Pestilence says, "You think. it could be the power lines?" Cuz where. we were was a steep hill. There were. power lines right there. >> So he walks over and it that thing goes. nuts. What I found out is that thing. picks up. It's a $500 piece of equipment. in 2019. uh $500 piece of equipment that. picks up everything, every airwave there. is, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, RF, whatever, and. it'll color, it'll color code and. different sounds. Yeah. >> Somebody whispering loud. >> Yeah. Cellular. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. So, I I lived to fight another day. He. said, he said, "Hey, follow us to.

another place." So, at that point, I'm. calling the case team and I'm like, "You. need to shut the tracker off.". >> I'm like, "You need to shut it off." And. they're like, "Well, we're not sure if. we can shut it off remotely." And I'm. like, "Well, you need to try." And. they're like, "Well, if we shut it off, we don't know if we can get it back on.". I said, "What I'm telling you is. whatever he's got, >> shut it off. >> is finding it. And if you don't shut it. off, it's going to be a quick undercover. >> and it should be your choice.". >> Well, I mean, they were they were saying. technically like they were saying, "Can. you cut it off from a remote? And if you. did, could we get it back on?" And I'm. getting a concern. You don't want to.

lose me. But I'm like, "Hey." So, luckily I don't want to lose me either. >> I know, right? Luckily, they got it off. and I pulled into the parking lot of an. abandoned concrete plant. I'm like, "Pull in." I'm like looking up to the. Lord. I'm like, "That's funny." Uh-huh. How many people have I seen die in a. movie at empty a concrete plant? [laughter]. But uh they wanded me and it didn't go. they wanded the truck and it didn't go. off. And I'm like, cool. So then I go. and that's when I start meeting. everybody. And then as the months went. on, you would go and train. Um. >> would you ever play ball together or. anything? Or would like would you guys.

do any social excursions, field trips or. anything like that? >> All shooting. All training. >> Really? >> Yeah. Because uh. >> because Luke's dad had a 100 acre. property in Rome, Georgia. >> Got it. And uh that's where we did a lot. of our training that cell and the mar. Maryland cell would come down and train. and then at one point we started finding. all kinds of things like. uh. you talked about sacrifice. That's what. gets me into it. So I'll speed up to. that. During during the case you start. identifying more and more people and.

those people some of them are outside of. the United States. So our world working. partners are opening cases on them. Some. of them are in all kinds of states in. the US. But as I explained before, that. means that maybe Seattle is FBI is. opening a case on the person that's in. their AO. Maybe Detroit's opening cases, Georgia's opening multiple cases. Alabama's opening. It just goes. Um. because at any given time there was. there was a good 50s something people in. the base. Um, but the base was more like. an umbrella group because every member.

that I knew that was in the base, they. were also a part of another white. supremacy group, whether it be Adam. Waffen or Green Brigade or or uh oh man, was it Sunonnen? I can't remember the. name of it right now. Um, but so you. were a member of another group as well, but we did training and that first. weekend, and remember I'm a firearms. instructor certified at the FBI. I was. the lead tactical instructor for my. division and a 19-year-old kid led.

carbine and it led led shooting and. tactics. He led the training and it was. good. It wasn't bad. And I'm I'm. thinking, man, how did you learn? Did. you I mean, you're not you didn't run in. the military. You're too young to be in. and out to learn this. He said, no, it. was I think it was mainly gaming. And. then his dad took him to um a range. >> But he worked on it, you know, and uh. >> I was glad that they were safe with. their weapons cuz I didn't know who, you. know, what their shooting was. I was.

standing back when we started. I was. glad that they were good and safe, but I. was also scared cuz if they were. planning on doing something bad, >> they were pretty uh good. >> Oh, I'd be I'd be spooked, man. >> So, one of [clears throat] the big. things like with Undercover, you go in. there, you've got enough to go in. It's. all been approved. There's a We've got. the reporting and and people are. predicated, so we're going in. But do. you have enough to charge them? Well, in. instances like this, you've been spewing. a lot of hate online. You've been saying. a lot of crazy stuff, but is what you're.

doing just first amendment protected, or. are you actually planning on doing. something bad? So sometimes we go in and. you might just be in there for six. months trying to figure out if they're. doing I've been in cases for five, six. months and I come back to the team and. go they're not doing anything illegal, man. It's all first amendment protected. and we're just spinning our wheels at. this point, you know. And. >> and when did that turn for the base? When did that kind of. >> So I got [clears throat] we were already. talking about a bunch of stuff and I was. starting to get the DM conversations.

going on where it's more private uh. direct messaging for those that don't. know. And what is your wife thinking. when you get home on the weekends and. and you got like a lot more white. laundry or whatever? [laughter]. >> No dark stuff. >> Like is she. >> or I come home smelling like diesel fuel. from the from the close clan. They call. it clan cologne cuz you can't stand that. cross up without the diesel fuel pouring. all over you. Unless somebody was. holding an umbrella over you, I guess. >> Oh, damn. >> Yeah. >> Um but okay, so take us back in. So, at one point there's a uh there's.

somebody that gets doxed and and for. those that don't know what doxing is, basically outing you, right? And the. far-left is very very good at it. They're really good at doxing you, showing up to protest at your kids'. school, at your business, at your home, your parents, whatever. Um, and the. right far right from what I experienced. can't stand that um because they feel. like they're losing their life and their. identity. That's why they're huge on. anonymity. So all these pictures you see. if you pull up the base stuff um where.

the BBC and the Guardian was blasting. all this stuff. I mean I'm there but. we're wearing balaclavas. Um that one. right I'll show you one that was me. Uh. yeah that's me right there. I'm on the. far right. >> You're in that group photo? >> Yeah. >> And who took the pictures? Did you guys. go to a place? >> No no no. Just one of the one of the. guys that didn't suit up. Um cuz you're. always trying to recruit. How was. recruiting going overall? Did you feel. like. >> uh I mean es and flows. You get people. coming in and then you vet them and then. and then some people might drop. Some.

people might get doxed. >> So uh so. >> any women in it? >> No. None. Um which was something I kind. of [laughter]. There was a lot of there was a lot of. the guys that did not have partners. >> Oh, you'd have more men in it if you had. more women in it. >> Yeah. But they don't have partners. So. think about this. You were talking. earlier about radicalization online. picture for these cases. I'm just going. to say it's a young white guy. Young. white man who's probably an outcast. He's most definitely been bullied. Uh.

can't get a date and they're just. hating. So then you go on in these. groups at night. And this works on the. other side too. Far left, black. separatist, radical jihad, kind of same. thing. You're looking for somebody. that's um. like-minded individual. >> Yeah. and and that's how they start. getting you. Um, >> do you think that the media ostracizes. white people? Do you feel like it's does. >> Oh, boy. I'm not answering that. >> Is that a tougher? Is that a bad. >> No, that should probably give you my.

answer. [laughter]. >> There you go. >> No, it depends. >> I don't Look, you don't have to. I I was. just thinking about it like, you know, I. feel like there's a lot of like I don't. know. It's a tough one. It's a tough. question. >> It's I mean, I'm white, so what am I. supposed to say? I mean, >> it's a good point. >> Have I am Am I privileged? Am I not. privileged? Did I get stuff for free or. did I have to bust my ass to get it? So, I don't I just try not to answer that. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I know personally what I've had. to do to be where I'm at. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a good point, man. >> Somebody else might not believe that. >> Yeah.

>> And it's in the eye of the beholder, no. matter what I say, but I can talk till. I'm blue in the face. >> If you don't believe me, then that's it. >> Yeah. We'll think about it another time. >> Well, but picture you're in there and. you're lonely and you're looking for Do. you want to belong? You want to belong. It's It's human nature to want to. belong. >> Yeah. and want to feel a part of. something to feel like. >> brotherhood. Same thing. Same thing with. gangs. Same things with cults, biker. clubs. It's a brotherhood. Your brother, you know, you're now you're now you're. one of us. >> Oh, dude. There was not like when you. were growing up, just having your. friends. It's like going to the gym with.

a friend to go lift with. Anything that. gives you some connection becomes a huge. part of your life. >> Yeah. So, you get that. And that's I'm. glad I'm glad you said that because. another way to describe what I was. describing is isolation. >> Yeah. Oh, it's that's. >> And if you're a believer, when you get. isolated, oh, let's look at the jungle, Africa, if you're a zebra that gets. isolated, you're a lot easier to pick. off. Yeah. You know what I mean? Just. saying. >> Undeniably isolation is for the devil, man. I believe that. Yeah. >> You know, it's like even though like.

there's things even in my own life, it's. like, man, I don't want to go. I don't. want to do that. That is the that is not. the best parts of me talking or. communicating to me. >> Yeah, I'm with you on that. >> Anyway, carry on. So this guy uh a guy. gets doxed. He's a member in South. Africa. Um and he gets doxed and then at. that point one of the members in the the. base is like how many of our brothers do. we have to watch fall before we do. something? And he called for operational. operation crystal knot which was an. actual operation in World War II. Essentially,

uh it what they did is if you were not. white, you were Jewish, you know, anti-fascist, whatever, uh they would go. down and smash your windows of your. business, slice the tires on your car, set stuff on fire. So, that's what he. was calling for. And some members did do. it. They went out and uh tagged some. synagogues with some uh you know, hate. symbols. Um I'm trying to remember if. anybody set anything on fire or not. But. I remember it being called for or. slashing tires. But so now we're.

starting to get a little bit more people. are actually doing overt acts in. furtherance of hate, right? Even though. even though it's just painting and I. mean but you know like I've had some. people say, "Hey man, I mean they just painted a. synagogue, you know, I mean to be. looking at this many years for for a. hate crime or whatever." And I'm like, "Yeah, but what if you were one of those. Jewish people that went to that. synagogue and now you every time you go. there, you're scared to death because. you've seen active shooter, you've seen. mass shooter events, Tree of Life, >> uh, in [snorts] in Pittsburgh, you know,

and I know a lot of those people now. because I've I've helped out with. Eradicate Hate, >> um, and Eradicate Hate's based out of. Pittsburgh. And I've actually met and. I'm friends with um, family members of. the people that were murdered at Tree of. Life." So. >> yeah, my friend Michael the other day. was talking about uh the shooting that. had happened in Australia, >> New Zealand. >> No, I think it was in Bondi. >> Okay. I was thinking of the New Zealand. Christ Church. >> No, I think it was in Bondi Beach. Um. >> Oh, there we go. >> Yeah. This was in December. Um.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sad to say that. these shootings happen more and more. often and I just they start blending in. my head. >> Which shootings do you mean just. overall? >> I mean just like active shooter events. Yeah. Yeah, >> I do remember that. That was the seek. temple or something. They shot up. >> You'd feel like people. um I don't know. Evil's always going to. be around, you know. Well, you know, a lot of interview. >> do you think a lot of this of new age. stuff, like say a lot of like um if. there's anti-semitic, if it's Jewish.

specific hate, do you think a lot of. that is coming from um like people who. have or or do you know actually if a lot. of it's coming from like people who have. Nazi ideology from like like Hitler Nazi. ideology or is it people that are having. reactions to um some of Israel's tactics. and like their government's tactics? It's going to be both because if you're. pro if. I got to figure out I want to word it. right because I don't want anybody to.

say you're saying all pro Palestine. people are no but if you're on that that. extreme side that's pro Palestine over. Israel well a lot of those people aren't. white so you couldn't be identifying. with Hitler cuz Hitler is more of the. white supremacy but it's definitely. anti-Semitic. >> Wait wait wait hold on a second. >> they're hating the Jews too. >> Do you think that's an extremist view. that people are pro Palestine? >> No. Yeah. No, not at all. U but if you. are going to go again, if you're going. to go to extreme or you're going to be. happy that people are being slaughtered. and murdered and raped and tortured, you.

know, and you're anti-Semitic, um then you're more probably more that. extremism side. >> Got it. >> But you were asking me if it was like is. it Hitler driven or is it pro Palestine, anti-Israel driven? >> Yeah, anti-Israel government driven. Like Yeah. So, just to be super clear. >> Yeah, man. I think it's just scary. Like. I have Jewish friends that have been. like who who have spoken out about like. just like being in fear and like they're. like. >> going to class, you know, >> and I'm I'm like I don't I mean heck. Hitler wasn't even solid white.

>> I think he I mean you can pull it out. I. think he it was determined that he had. some Jewish in his blood. >> And then there's probably other. ethnicities who are scared of our. relationship with Israel and what could. happen to them in the future. I get. scared sometimes of I think with. the surveillance state now I feel like. everybody's getting this. I know. And. now now the big the big I think the. fresh topic right now on surveillance is. those flock cameras. >> Yeah. >> It's like I. >> a lot of my black friends are starting. to are starting to them up. >> Yeah. I'm not hating on that.

>> I'm not saying do it. I'm just I'm just. saying that. >> the block verse flock. You know what I'm. saying? >> That's where I'm at. >> You see a flock camera on a culde-sac. One culde-sac. Why do you need a flock. camera? >> I agree. >> Were you are you reading plates. >> or does it pick up phone stuff? And it's. a third party. Here's my concern. >> Third party company. That's not law. enforcement. >> I agree. What are we doing? >> So, what oversight do you have? Do you. have policies stopping? I mean, we've. got a constitution. That is our That's. our law. That's our Bible. If you Which. goes back to, you know, you're talking. about the border and stuff. Listen,

>> if I'm a law enforcement officer, number. one, I'm a peace officer. >> Yeah. >> Most of the cars used to say to protect. and serve. That's your job. You're a. shepherd. You should be. You're. protecting the sheep. >> Yeah. >> From the wolves. That's I mean I'm not. trying to be all you know Jack Nicholson. on the wall and be uh. >> holier than now. It's just my job is to. enforce the law. So I used to tell. people I'm like well don't hate me. because I'm enforcing law. There's been. so many people I've arrested or sat down.

at a table with after they've been. arrested and I'll say man you know I'm. not saying I disagree with what you did. I'm not saying I think you're a bad. person. I'm saying you're an adult and. you made the choice to break the law and. you got caught. So here we are. I'm not. hating. >> Did you ever get so deep and tangled. during like a um during um like a. staying or during an operation or during. an undercover where at the end you were. like, "Damn, this is going to be a long. day when this bust happens.". >> Yeah. Cuz it's going to bother you. Yeah. >> So, and and I'm kind of taking us off uh.

off a base. I'm kind of taking us Yeah. off a base a little bit. So, let's get. back. Um so, there was the doxing going. on. >> Yep. So they did some people tagged some. stuff and also during that time we had a. base member who went out in Canada. He. was Canadian and he went and put flyers. up to try to recruit and then somebody. answered the recruitment. They had to go. through the emails like I did. They had. to go through a uh interview panel like. I did uh on audio on wire and then they.

went and had the face tof face meet. So, this guy that got recruited, one of our. members who ended up being called Punish. Snake, his name is Pat Matthews. >> Punish Snake. >> Yeah. So, Pat Matthews, uh, he changed. his name several times, but he was I I. think it's the Canadian version of our. National Guard kind of, but he was being. train, he was a military, >> he was being trained, um, and he's the. guy. So, we get a new member coming in. Hey, welcome new member, blah blah blah. from Canada. I think his name was Mark. or something. Uh, and he's in the he's.

in the main chat group for about a week, >> maybe two weeks. I don't think it. definitely I don't think it was more. than two weeks. >> And are you in the chat group every day. kind of? >> Yeah. Imagine if I wasn't. So, I work my. job as an FBI agent. I go home, I might. have dinner with my family and then I'm. back out on the porch, you know, answering stuff or I'm checking in. during the day, right? >> But they also knew I was a. >> What's up, fellas? Everybody still. racist or whatever like that. >> You going to commit some hate crimes? Yeah. [laughter]. >> But uh so so this Canadian this he meets.

this guy. This guy gets into the group. and after about a week or so he he comes. out and it turns out that it was a. journalist for a paper. >> No no it's he's a I guess these days. that's probably what the people are. thinking. He he was a journalist for a. newspaper up there. >> He went and met Pat on his own. >> and after about a week or two they were. like hey this is too deep. you pull the. chalks right up. Right. So, this article. comes out and it's basically doxing Pat.

So, Pat, they come the RM uh Royal. Canadian Mount of Police RCMP comes to. his house, takes his guns. He's booted. from the military thing. His parents now. hate him. I think he lost his job and. all of a sudden he disappears. >> Wow. >> His truck is found at the border the. border of CA and the United States. So, we're pretty sure he's here, but we. don't know where, >> right? >> Eventually, we find him and he ended up. being down at my cell. He was he was. renting out one of the horse stalls.

under the barn, under the the residence. on that 100acre property. So, I got to. go sleeping there. Yeah. So, I got to go. spend a lot of time down there training. and it just got crazier and crazier, man. It was like. >> And what kind of stuff were they saying. or or like like how was it? >> Everything's preparing for the preparing. for the bugaloo, building your kit. I. mean, a lot of these kids didn't even. have I say kids. I mean, I I was 48. I. lied and said I was 44 at the time. Um, because literally there was like one. other 40 something. I think Nazaro was.

40ome. So, the leader was 40ome. There. was one other dude that was in his 40s. There might have been two 30somes and. everything else was 20s and teens. >> Wow. >> Um, a lot of these uh these kids, they. didn't have a job. They didn't have a. car. They had to borrow a car to come to. the training, but they were wearing cry. precision plate carriers. Same thing the. FBI SWAT team wears. >> Got it. >> They're wear they're building their kit. up, their pistols, their their uh their. semi-automatic rifles, their ARs or. their AKs and uh and we're coming out. and training, man.

>> Wow. >> Moving drills. And you know, may not be. the best, but still, I mean, I was. looking at a lot of them going, "Holy. crap, man. If they wanted to take on. some if they wanted to do something, they they're probably going to get the. drop on a lot of people, >> right?". >> You know, >> scary, dude. It's so It's fascinating to. think that that goes on. So once we. found Pat um and we had him locked down. so we're like okay we feel like we're in. control of the situation cuz we were. finding out more and more stuff uh are. they plotting something where they're. not. There was inklings of things being.

whispered and said and we're as a case. team in an undercover all the case. teams. I mean at one point we had a. hundred people on a call once a month. That's how many case teams there were in. the United States working this stuff. Um. and it was just kind of like did they. mean that? Did they not mean that? You're trying to find out, are you going. to do something bad or you not? >> Yeah. >> Are you just talking trash, First. Amendment protected, and then you're. going you're waiting for the D-Day and. then it's purge. Yeah. You know, >> um so we get this all started because. you ask about the sacrifice thing. So, a.

lot of these guys believed in uh the. north Norse Norse pantheon. So, they. were claiming pagan, but they're white. supremacists. They're not true pagans. Got it. >> They're white supremacists. And we've. already had a couple of blocks. BLOT, that is the ceremony, the worship. ceremony. Um, >> did you ever go to those? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd already. been cool. >> Well, I mean, I I had to participate. I. had to mirror. So, I would pray to a. god. There were some that we had that. had some people leading it that was uh.

really uh they were some of them were. actually priests in the Asatru family. >> just doing what? Side jobs or whatever. >> No, no, no, no. I'm just mean they've. they've obtained the rank to basically. be a preacher. They are they're a priest. and they can run a block. >> Um, so I'd attended some and it might be. in the middle of the summer and you go. down there and you paint runes on your. chest and we do the whole ceremony and. they'd be like a uh take like a piece of. wood and carve carve uh some runes in it.

which were pagan. >> Res. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then it would be uh then. but then there would be like swastikas. and white supremacy stuff on there too. I got it. >> And then you you would cut yourself and. bleed on the wood. >> and then we set the wood on fire and. pray to our gods until the wood stopped. burning. >> So I was getting in closer. >> Yeah. >> And then and then it was just going so. fast. Uh Theo, I tell you. >> You ever wake up believing it?

>> No. No. Not this. No. I mean some of. these cats were cats. Some of these guys. were saying that Hitler's still alive in. Hollywood. Yes. >> And he's hanging out with 15 foot giant. white dudes with red beards and they're. just waiting to come back. And I'm like, for what? >> Yeah, that's crazy. >> I mean, come on back. If you're saying. we need to fight right now, what are. they? What's Hitler waiting for? >> Yeah. Were they milling around for? >> Yeah. Come on. You know. >> Yeah. Unless he's waiting for NIL money. or whatever. [laughter]. >> Yeah, exactly. I'm switching teams. >> Somebody give him a deal probably. All.

right. Um, but so we get to this point. and it's Halloween of 2019 and we're. going to have a basically what people. refer to as a hate camp. We're going to. be there training and training. I did. some handtohand combat training there. We'd already started doing firearms, but. that that that Halloween night was a. Thursday night and uh in 2019. So, we have a few drinks. I go back to. my uh I go back to my truck. I'm. actually charging my phone up cuz the. battery is dying. You know how it is.

when you go from like sleet, ice, freezing, cold, and you hop in that warm. vehicle and you kind of just defrost and. then you nod off a little bit. I nodded. off a little bit. >> Um, and I wake up to the pounding on my. door cuz I was already pale horse by. this time. Um, I switched my code name. Um, and and they were like, "Paleor, pale horse, wake up. Wake up." I'm like, "Man, what's going on?" They're like, "You got to see this. You're not going. to believe it." I come out and they go, "Hey, remember us talking about. sacrificing uh a goat?" And I'm like.

vaguely and they're like, "We got one.". And I'm like, "Oh." They went, I mean, not far down the road. >> Yeah. >> To a guy who had three. And turns out. that he came out cuz he heard them. They. were armed. They had their fle camo on. with the balaclavas over their face. I. mean, it's a wonder nobody didn't get. shot right there. But they steal a goat. or a ram. I don't know the I mean, I've. asked people the difference. It was big. It had horns. I don't know if it was a. goater or a ram, >> but they uh I walk up and they're like.

uh had it in the back of the truck. And. one of the members who went by um Dimma. Dimma says, "Man, this goat's. all over the truck." And I said, "Well, hell, I wouldn't be too if a bunch of. Neanderthalss reflect horn and. balaclavas just jerked me out of the. backyard at gunpoint. I'm like that gum, you know." And uh and then Eisen was. going to be running the blood on this. one. And I see him over there and he's. petting the goat and he's like, it looks. like he's showing it love and stuff. And. I walked up and I said, "Hey man, is it. bad that I feel sorry for the goat?" He. says, "Hey, pale horse, don't let hear.

the goat.". >> Eisen was the guy's name. >> Yeah, it was his code name. His real. name was William Bill, bro. >> Oh, I say cuz Eisen sounds like a Jewish. name. It seems like a weird name to. have. >> I think I think it was actually a rune. I can't remember what Eisen stands for, but anyway. Eisen is German and. Ashkanazi surname meaning iron. >> There you go. Eisen. >> Okay, go on. Sorry. >> So, I didn't know that. See, I should. have looked that up. I spent seven. months with the guy. [laughter]. >> Well, >> But, uh, I been like, "Oh, iron. I got.

it." Um, so he says, "Hey, don't let the. goat hear you say that." And I'm like, "Okay." He's like, "This goat, we're. showing this goat love. We're going to. sacrifice it to start the wild hunt, and. it's going to Val. It's going to be with. Odin tonight. This is a good thing for. the goat. No negative energy basically. And don't let the other people hear you. with negative energy. I said, "Got it. Push that beach ball down. Never think. of it again." You know, underwater. It's. gonna push it down. So, I walk over to. uh Oh, let me say this. The Wild Hunt in.

Norse mythology is essentially Odin and. other gods going out in the middle of. the night and laying the smackdown to. all their enemies. >> Okay? But in the version of the white. supremacy, he's saying that this. sacrifice is going to start the wild. hunt for us to cleanse the world of. darkness. So if you're anti-fascaloo. happens, they're say what they were. saying is if you were not fascist, you. were automatically anti-fascist and the. penalty is death. >> I mean, these dudes would talk about.

shooting their own dads. man. >> Like I'd have to kill my dad if he if he. doesn't if he doesn't. >> switch to be fascist. I'm I'm gonna have. to kill my dad. >> Wow. >> And then one be like I'd cry myself to. sleep if I did. And other would be like. well I could never kill my parents so. you guys are way ahead of me. So you're. hearing all this crazy stuff and you're. hearing you're hearing Pat down under. the uh barn saying, "I'm a ghost. My. life is over. I don't exist anymore.". >> Cuz that's a guy that got uh doxed. >> doxed out of Canada. >> And so can't y'all bust the group at.

this point or no? We could, but there's. there's that's the I'm going to tell you. in my opinion as a case agent on. long-term cases and as an undercover, that's the hardest decision. >> to decide when do we have enough or oh, this new guy just came in. One more buy. and we can get, you know, it's tough. >> Yeah. Because at what point are you just. like playing house or whatever? It. almost seems like white house, >> right? But what would we charge him with. other than assisting getting an. undocumented alien in right now? >> Right now, what charges you going to. come up with? Because there's no federal. domestic terrorism charge. Okay. There. are federal international terrorism.

charges, but there's not for domestic. terrorism. Got it. >> Um, so I'm I'm hearing all this crazy. stuff like I mean we can form everybody. that's been docked. We can have like a. staging location or or you know a. clubhouse somewhere where it's all us. and we're all ghost and we just go out. and murder. I mean it's talking about. laying out like a homeless person. learning the pattern of the lefty. journalist and then just popping them in. the back of the head with a 38 one day. and just walk off. >> Wow. >> That's gorilla. that kind of small hit. kind of thing. So, we've got them and.

then we get to that Halloween weekend. So, they tell me they got the goat and I. go to my my listening device and I'm. like, "Hey," talking to the case and I'm. like, "If you can hear me, I'm pretty. sure we're getting to go down here and. slaughter this animal." I'm racking my. brain trying to think if there's. anything. I'm definitely not seeing. anything federal in my head. And and I'm. I basically just tossed it to them. Do. you want me to shut this thing down or. you want me to just drive off and come. up with a ruse and kind of drive off? >> I said, "If you want me to, you need to.

let me know." And I waited and I stared. at stared at my waited and I waited. I. waited for my phone to ring. I waited. Waited. Nothing. And I went, "Okay, I. guess I'm heading down in the woods.". So, we head down. We carry the goat. down. There's probably about 12 of us. there. And. >> is the goat sleeping or it's loud? >> No. No. We're walking it down, but you. know. Yeah. So, we get down there and uh. >> just doing ghost around. >> Yeah. Doing ghost Yeah. So, we get. down there to what was referred to as a. holy spot. The torches are lit. Eisen. leads the block. Talks about, hey, we're.

going to uh sacrifice this goat to Odin. It's going to go be with the elves and. everything. >> And is he is it pretty organized or is. the guy like reading notes off of his. phone and. >> No, he wasn't the best. Now, that other. guy I told you about when we were in the. in the summer, I think he was a legit. aatru. >> Got it. >> Priest. I mean, it was it was it was led. very well. This one was a little choppy, you know. >> Yeah, that's crazy, >> you know. But. >> god dang, >> but they're believing it. >> They're believing it. Right. So then.

then uh he has like a it's bigger than a. machete, but it's not quite a sword if. from what I remember. >> We're all around the goat. He's already. given the whole speech about the wild. hunt, and we're going to start killing. all the anti-fas and non-whites. Um. because if everybody's white, that'll. definitely save that that'll solve the. problem. >> No, it won't. [laughter]. >> No, it won't. You know, >> it's still going to be fighting. Still. going to be cheating. Yeah. What are we. talking about here? But uh. >> so I end up we're all in a circle around.

the goat and somehow I ended up at the. back legs. >> and he's already giving the speech and. now he's got this blade and he's he's. like he's bringing it back with his. hands and he's coming down. Practice. swing. Practice swing. Taking a breath. You can hear somebody say, "Just do it.". You know, and he comes down and I'm. holding the back of that goat. He comes. down with everything he's got. And all I. heard was thunk. I don't think it broke a single hair. I. don't know if the blade was dull or the. backstrap of the goat was so strong. And. for that second, I was like, in that. split second in my mind, I'm like, "Oh,

this is going to be bad. This is going. to get bloody." Um cuz I'm holding it. and Yeah. And then you hear, "It may. take two swings. Do it again." And you. know, all is yelling and then uh. somebody says, "Does anybody got a gun?". I think it was pestilence. Does anybody. have a pistol? >> And we pestilence. >> The rule was is we weren't supposed to. bring any weapons down there. But the. one guy Zoomnat says, "I got mine. We I. mean me and Luke TMB both were looking. at going, "What? This is like the least. qualified guy to be holding a weapon. This dude's been up for like two days.

straight on aderall. He worked third. shift in Austin, Texas, and drove. straight to Rome, Georgia.". >> Uhuh. And I'm like, and not coordinated. I mean, gun stuff. I I was like, "Oh my. goodness, man. You're the last person. down here.". >> What the heck, dude? >> He hands the pistol over. Luke takes it. from me. >> This is like Assassin's Creed up there. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, he takes uh he takes. the weapon, hands it to Eisen. Eisen. chambers around, kind of points towards. the goat, and then turns completely away. to pull the trigger. And I just want to. let the instructor in me. I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.".

>> Yeah. >> He's like, "What?" And I go, "Man, look. at what you're shooting at, bro. We're. all in a circle on our knees, man. [laughter]. He's like, "Oh, okay." I know, man. >> I feel like this is a Larry David. sketch, dude. >> I know. I mean, part of you in the comic. comical side, you're like, "I'll let him. go ahead and shoot. I'm over here." You. know, he's aiming that way. Let's see. He takes out, you know. Uh, but yeah, so. he puts one right in his head and then. it goes down and it twitches for a. while. And I I coach him to uh I said, "Man, why don't you go ahead and put. another round in it?" Because it was. debate of is it after death twitches or.

is it still alive? I said, "Just go. ahead and put it." I said for the sake. of the goat because you want it to show. up happy, right? It's going I mean it's. a good thing. I'm using his words. against let it get there quick. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, I thought so he. he did it and then you hear somebody. say, "Now it's definitely dead." Oh, are. we done? No. Now they slice the throat. of the goat, fill up a cup full of. blood. >> Nuh-uh. >> Yeah. And we're all in a circle. And. >> And is it warm out or cold out? >> It is chill. It's cold. Oh, it's cold. Yeah, it's cold cuz it the whatever.

happened that Halloween in 2019, it had. been like 60s or 70s and that day a cold. front came, it dropped to like 10. So, we're down there and uh he um. they slice it, they fill the cup up with. blood. Everybody's still in the circle. except me. I'm holding the flashlight. because Eisen decided to bring acid to. help with the spiritual journey. >> LSD. >> Yeah. Yeah. Had a sheet. Had a sheet. So, >> y all took a hit or what?

[clears throat]. >> No, I didn't. Uh, and that was funny. because they were like, one of the guys. was like, "Hey, I'm a I'm a how do we. worded it? I'm a very experienced, highly experienced psychedelic or. something. I'm a professional. psychedelic." He goes, "We think you'd. really like this pill horse." I said, "Let me tell you something. You have no. idea what's in my brain. You have no. idea what I've done on this planet in my. lifetime. I don't do that stuff. If. somebody slips one on me and I go on a. bad trip, every single one of you are. going with me." Damn. >> You know, that's the only thing I do. I. just. >> call Yes, I'mma use that.

>> And then one guy was like, he was like, "Yeah, don't do it. Don't put nothing in. Pale Horse's drink." But I went around. and I was shining. He would tear a tab, put it under your tongue, chase it with. the blood. Now you're sign now we're. signifying the sacrifice. We're closing. the deal here. >> Yeah. Now you're a sig. >> Yeah. So now it gets to me and I'm one. of the last ones. Well, by the time it. gets to me, Theo, I look down and it is. clotted. It is chunky. And I'm looking. at it going, "Man, I really don't want. to drink this, man." You know, I'm like, [laughter]. but I think pestilence or I don't know.

if he said it or I I thought of it, but. I just stuck two fingers deep into the. blood, pulled out my fingers, and sucked. the blood off my fingers. >> Damn. >> And uh and luckily, I'd carried a beer. down there and I chased it with that. [laughter]. >> What kind of beer was it? >> Uh that night it might have been Bud. Light. >> before the controversy. >> Yeah. Oh, I think. >> No, it's a I think it was a Bud Light, but uh I uh if it wasn't a Bud Light, it. was a Yingling logger, >> which is what I like. That's Yeah,

>> that's nice. >> Um. >> damn, brother. Y'all down there eating. blood and freaking doing LSD. I mean, what in the is going on? >> I know, right? So, we're supposed to get. up the next day and train. No, training. was shot. >> What? >> Cuz only like only like two or three. people didn't do acid and everybody else. was up all night staring at a fire. >> I don't even know what y'all are. training for. This feels like the New. York Jets kind of dude. I'm like, "What. the is going on?". >> So, the second they're like, "We're not. going to go handle weapons and be. running across fields." Yeah. Cuz. they've been up all night and they were. hot. And I'm like, "Great. You just shot. an entire day of training, you know.".

>> Um, but I went to go get biscuits for. everybody. I went to the Bojangles. >> Ooh, they're good. I just had one the. other day, actually. >> Apparently in Rome, Georgia, Bojangles. is where it's at because cars will be. backed all the way down downtown. I. mean, down the main street. Directly. across the street from Bojangles was. McDonald's. There were no cars in it. M. >> But I went and I picked up about 30. bacon, egg and cheese biscuits. So I'm. coming back and all I can smell is that. butter, that bacon, that cheese, and. them eggs. That biscuit. >> God. >> I go to get out of my truck. Punish.

snake says, "Pale horse, you got to try. this goat. It is good." He's been. holding that raw goat over a fire. It. was not prepared at all. >> I've had some gamy stuff in my life. That was the gamiest tasting meat I ever. put in my dag on mouth. >> Yeah. And as soon as I started biting it. after smelling the butter and the soon. as I bit into it, man, I was like I was. like, "That's not too bad." As soon as. he turned his head, I tossed it to the. farm dogs. I was like, >> "Yeah, dude. I've had bad meat on some. LSD and that's.

>> You never forget that. [laughter]. You never forget that.". >> Yeah. I mean, I've just coo I've eaten. undercooked duck on LSD. >> Yeah. >> And I never forget that I still. sometimes I still floss my teeth years. later even just to get the just I feel. like some of it's still in there. So, so. after the sacrifice, uh, they chopped. the head of the goat off and we carried. it around. >> What the hell is that? >> We took a picture, um, because the the. recruitment process was this. Whatever video, whatever new recruitment. video we're doing has to be better than.

the last one. >> Got it. >> Every time the base got infiltrated by. either a journalist or whatever and do. their offset got better and better. How. did that happen? How did we get. infiltrated? How do we stop it from. happening again? Mhm. >> So, Saturday night comes, Saturday. comes, now we can start training again. So, we're out there shooting and running. and stuff and now it's warming back up. and we uh we go down Saturday night to. the holy spot and build a bonfire. We uh. we burn American flags. There it is.

Now, here's the thing. He nicknamed that. goat Gar. Uh his name is William. Garfield Bilbro. His grandfather's name. is Garfield. So, he named the the goat. Gar. So, everybody talked about Gar. after that. >> I am back row. two left from the flag. You can see my. neck. Yeah. Oh, there you go. >> Yeah, that's me right there. >> Showing a little neck, huh? >> Little neck. Well, yeah. The bottol. didn't go all the way down. >> Dang. >> Somebody should have caught that and. been like, "Pale horse, your neck's. showing.". >> You bought that baby clava, which.

>> I didn't know. They gave it to you. That's part of your initiation when you. made it in. They gave me the balaclava. and the the three runes. >> That's smaller clava they gave you, bro. Yeah. Small for you. >> I got I got I got I got a horse head. >> Oh yeah. >> So then we go down and we burn American. flags and we burn holy Bibles. Um. and uh I remember coming back after that. weekend and I remember just feeling kind. of dirty. I mean I've been up and maybe. that's cuz I'd been up for 4 days or. whatever. I don't know. The raining on. and all but just the act and just the.

feeling of it. I was like man uh I just. feel weird. >> Yeah. Your spirit. >> Yeah. Because I'm like Yeah. That's it. Because I cuz I'm like, man, I come back. to the office and I go, I've been. working undercover since 1996, off and. on. Started street level narcotics. I. said, I have never had to burn American. flags. I've never had to burn holy. Bibles. And I definitely wouldn't with a. group of people that went and stole a. goat, sacrificed, and we drank his blood. at a ritual, you know, because even. though they're saying pagan, some of. those dudes are praying to Satan. Some.

of those dudes are praying to like Order. of Nine Angles where it's a lot more. satanic. Um, and uh, yeah, it's. >> but that weekend I guess I had passed. the benchmark of trust because that. Saturday night after everybody's going. to bed, it's me, Pestilence, and TMBB. And I kind of asked him a question. I. go, you know, a while back, of course, I. know what I'm asking about cuz we're. trying to figure out what it is. But I. was a recording that I'd gotten of the. case teams and myself. We were trying to.

figure out what they meant. And I kind. of rec circled back on that and I said, "What what were we talking about there?". And they kind of whisper and I hear. pestilence say, "Yeah, I think we can. trust him." So, hey, phone and airplane. mode. Cool. And we start talking and. they start telling me about that they've. they've been they're talking about. wanting to do bigger things. They didn't. necessarily they didn't ne necessarily. say we were going to kill people yet, but it definitely enough to lead us to. believe that we need to stay in this. longer because we got to figure out what. they're talking about. >> Yeah.

>> Right. So, let's just fast forward. Fast forward. Uh because this was a. fast-paced case. It was only seven. months long, but I'm telling you, it was. like no sleep for seven months, you. know? >> Yeah. >> Um and and just running and gunning. So, what I find out is the Georgia cell um. has. identified a couple a couple of counties. over in Georgia that they believed were. active members of Atlanta Antifa and and. anti-fascists, right? So, they wanted to.

murder him. And so, when you find out. that somebody's getting ready to like. we're like, man, what is it that they. were supposed to do? And I'm like, Luke. would never answer me on the phone. He. would just giggle. And he goes, "Look, I'll tell you to your face. I'm just. gonna do it on the phone." I said, "You. know what? I'm cruising through there. tomorrow." I wasn't obviously. I'm like, I called the case team. You ready to go. to Georgia tomorrow? Are you ready for. me tomorrow? Yes. So, I go down, wake. him up. I'm like, "Okay, you know, I. like to joke. I like to have fun." But. when it's time to be do business, I'm. serious. I said, "So, what the f are we.

doing?" Cuz he wouldn't tell me. They. called us. They sent out a thing like, "Hey, training this. We're going on a. camping trip. Blah blah blah. Bring It. looked like he was talking about going. out and putting up stickers, posters, flyers. But then he said, "Make sure you. bring your weapons." And then we were. all like, "What does he mean? What what. could be going on?" So when I met him. that day, I said, when I said, "What the. f are we doing?" He says, "Essentially, we're going to whack some people." And I. said, "Well, that's way different than. putting up stickers.". >> Yeah. >> And it's something I definitely would. not want to drive my personal truck to.

That's why I'm asking you, what are we. doing? Do I need to bring something that. doesn't come back to me? Kind of thing, >> get a rental or whatever. >> Yeah. So he he says, um, he starts. laying it out. But now I'm thinking. because the case team's thinking this. too. We got to slow this down. We got to. slow this down cuz if we wouldn't have. found out, I would have been finding out. at a camp on a Friday night. and how am I letting my cover team know. that, you know what I mean? So. >> yeah, you got to hurry. You can't. >> So yeah, I pointed out to him that. >> because you need some space for.

everybody to figure things out. So you. got to understand. So So I'm like I I. told him I mean sometimes the case. doesn't allow for that. You got to take. it down right then and there. for sure. >> But I pointed out to him how little. >> how little planning he had put in to. this murder he's talking about because. the planning he drafted on putting up. flyers was like insanely operational. security. I'm like what what's the I'm. just tired of waiting. >> And I said look I'm a I played a. >> And did he send you a JPEG of it or.

what? Would he just draw it on. something? >> No, he was just telling me no drawing of. it. >> Yeah. Nothing. >> Oh, you got to at least damn draw it up. So, so well, and that's what I told him. I was I was portraying a site survey, a. site survey specialist. And I said, "Dude, this is what I do." I said, "I go. I can go in and pull demographics, homes, schools, crime rates, everything." And I said, "Let me find. out what's all at this house. I mean, have you even been by it?" He said, "No." So, we start building that. I come. in with fake plates. I say, "I just took. these off of a car in Florida. Throw. those on." We go by, we case the place.

>> I'm not leading it. They're leaving it. Right. Um, and meanwhile, Punish Snake has now gone back to the. Maryland cell. He's up there with a guy. that goes by can't go back. Can't go. back was the only one that I really knew. in our proximity that actually had a. job, too. He was a truck driver and he. had a $6,000 thermal scope on a 6.5. Creedmoor. And they were talking about. now they they're up there they're. plotting the kickoff of the bugaloo. because there was going to be a second. amendment gun right gun uh second.

amendment rally for gun rights in. Virginia in 2020 January 2020. >> and they thought okay you're going to. have Antifa you're going to have 3enters. militia types anti-government types. you're going to have law enforcement. what if we start popping rounds into the. crowd from our sniper rifles and then. nobody knows who's shooting each other. and they start shooting each other what. if that's a kickoff to the bugaloo. I. know it's not a lot of forethought or a. lot of afterthought, but this is what. you're dealing with, right? >> And I'll say this, that's a good plan.

>> Yeah. >> For what they're trying to do. >> Yeah. Create chaos. >> It's like when you tap somebody on the. shoulder over here and you're standing. over here. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> You know, which dude, Victor Wimbeani, you know who that is? Basketball guy. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Tallest guy ever. Imagine if he does. that to people all the time where he. would like tap somebody way over there. >> Yeah. and nobody knows. >> and he's three people over, dude. Yeah, imagine [clears throat] in kindergarten. or whatever. He must have been able to. have the most fun. Anyway, [laughter]. back into the story. So, yeah, that's. absolutely insane. >> So, then we start casing that, but.

meanwhile, we're finding out more stuff. on this these the sale up in Maryland. And what the Baltimore division does is. they do a title three wire tab and they. put cameras in that apartment. If I. thought. if if what I thought they were talking. about was crazy face to face, the stuff. that they were sending me that they were. saying in that apartment was just them. two going, I'm like, "Holy crap.". They're talking out breaking out the. Saints and what they refer to as Saints. is your white supremacy mass shooters, the Charleston guy, the New Zealand guy,

the uh the Norway guy. I'm not saying. their names for on a purpose, right? But. it they have like they actually have a. scoreboard and it says the scoreboard. and it's got the mass shooters, the. white supremacist 77 and0. That's the uh. that's the Norway guy. Um I think it's. 55 and0 is New Zealand. You go all the. way down Pittsburgh 7 and0 nine for. Charleston. And it says what when will. you make the leaderboard? >> Wow. >> You know, these are the Yeah. So on the. anniversary of those mass murders, they'll say happy Saint.

>> Right. >> Like if it were me, it'd be happy Saint. Payne Day, you know. Um, and it's just. crazy. So, but again, are you just. talking trash or you going to go do. something? Right. >> So, now we're diving down to the end of. this case and we're on a time. We're on. we're trying to make sure everything. gets together and I'm running non-stop. I go to Baltimore. I drive up and shoot. all day with the the Maryland crew. trying to tighten things up, make sure. we got everything settled for that. Go. down uh to the Georgia crew. who have.

cased the place with everybody in the in. the I mean you got guys saying like hey. are there any kids and another dude. saying I don't have a problem shooting a. comedy kid. >> you got another dude saying oh I'm. perfect I I'm an IT I work 9 to5 I look. like a normal citizen but I've been I've. been wanting to do this for two years. >> damn. >> can I pop my cherry I'm like popping. your cherry means something to me what. are you talking about. >> he actually wants to put a bullet in one. of his head. >> he doesn't want to just be standing. guard so for this Georgia crew they had. it down to where We all four were going.

to go in. >> Yeah. >> One was going to post in the window. >> Mhm. >> Me and this is what I was instructed to. do. Me and TMBB were going to go down. and murder the family and anything else. But if they want to put a bullet in too, we'll let them take a shot. And then. Pestilence was going to set the house on. fire and we're going to leave. And that was that was that was number. one because they had already started. forming a list of liberal journalist uh. anchors. And I'm like, "You telling?" I. said, "You're telling me that you want. to start taking out people uh who are. like popular?" They go, "Yeah." And I.

go, "Well, it's a good thing we got this. family to start and get a little. practice run." But. >> so you're trying to keep them locked. into this so that you guys can you guys. can can uh can take action, >> right? And you're looking at over at. axe. Okay. So what did you do? So if you. want to come back and say, "Oh, we were. just talking trash." No, you bought. catch bags to put on AR so when you. shoot, if you have to shoot, it catches. the brass. You don't leave brass. uh. created a silencer for a gun. Um other. things like uh he told us the way it was. going to work is we were going to go to.

a camp, leave all of our digital. footprint, all media, all phones, everything there, go to a pay by the. hour motel, scrub all our loose skin. off. We're going to put on BDUs or. whatever. We're going to tape our pants. to our boots, tape our gloves to our. wrist, even this he was instructing even. put Vaseline on your facial hair so you. don't drop anything. Um, and he'd even. done enough research to where he had. read that, this would be Luke, uh, TMBB, um, who was telling me this, he had read. that, um,

for a lot of people, the first time they. murder somebody, they lose control of. their Bible. So, he was suggesting we. wear depens. >> What do you mean, diapers? >> Yeah, diapers. >> Oh my god. >> And I looked at him and I said, I'll be. all right. I didn't say I killed. anybody. I'm just saying I don't need a. diaper. >> Wow. >> You know, I'm like, I'll be okay. >> Just letting them. >> let it marinate. So, we were able to pull it all off. We. came in on a Wednesday, man. Yeah. >> Yeah. We came in on a Wednesday, started. the arrest. I picked up Luke because we. figured that would I mean, sneaking up.

on a 100 acre. Hold on a second, man. Hold on a. second. >> Yeah. >> This is going so fast, man. I mean, it's. going it's taking it's a long story, but. it's gone. So, now it's at this. crescendo where it's like this kind of. So, what are you like that day? Do you. like. >> I was running on fumes, man. I think I. had the flu at the time. My back was. spasming because what I didn't realize. >> Yeah. [clears throat] If you're going to. murder someone, I think you damn. That's. L5S1. >> I know, right? Yeah. So, I'm like, uh, I. had a lumbar fusion in 2002. >> Uh, after this case in 2020, I found out.

that my lumbar fusion had broken. approximately 3 to 5 years after. So, they were telling me for like 15 years, I was going around with a a disloc I. mean, >> right, >> a back that's disconnected, you know, >> there's a bad hitch or whatever. >> Yeah. I mean, it's broke. There's. nothing in there's no there's no cadaver. bone. There's no disc. It's just. floating. >> and. >> floating spine trick that sounds like. >> So every you would hear me on the. recording and they was like, "Was that. you making that sound?" I said, "Yeah.". And they go, "What happened?" I said, "My back jerked." You know, I'm walking. I'm like, "I'm walking. I like that.".

You know, [laughter]. >> brother, you just [clears throat] you. barely keeping it together. Okay. So, let's get to the end of this story just. because uh we should. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> you guys are driving over there. You're. driving. >> Yeah. So, I drive. >> And you know what y'all's plan is. You. know what? >> Yes. Yeah. because I for me personally I. was dealing with SWAT teams because they. were going to let a SWAT team hit us. Um. so I made sure that they I mean I go and. meet them, they tell me what they're. planning on and as long as I'm okay and. I don't disagree with safety stuff being. a SWAT guy myself, you know, and I'm.

like, "Okay." I looked at it. I'm like, "Oh, these dudes are squared away." So I. go and pick Luke up for lunch, but I've. already we've already laid out all this. stuff to where I'm like, "Hey man, we're. getting close to this thing." He's like, "Yeah." I said, "You know, I've been. thinking the last thing we need to do is. be riding around armed and get put on. the radar, but the cops stopped us. like," and he goes, "You know, that's a. good idea." So, when I picked him up. that day, I said, "Hey, you're not. packing, right?" He goes, "No, no, no. I. left it inside." I said, "Me neither, man." So, I'm getting the information, getting the intel that he's not. carrying.

>> Yeah. >> We pulled around. I like my truck has a. problem. I pull over. I go I go, "If I. said, if that damn," cuz literally it. did happen to my truck. Uh, the calipers. froze. They got lay locked and froze and. smoke was going everywhere. I said, "If. that damn caliber is locked again." And. he's like, "Man, that's so I pull over. and I get close to the fence to where he. can't get out." And then I go around the. back of the truck like I'm looking and. another truck pulls up. Well, it's. actually an FBI agent, but uh he pulls. up and he goes, "Hey man, you need any. help?" And I look up and I came up with. the whole ruse. We practice it and uh.

and he says, "Uh, hey man, you need any. help?" And I look up and I go, "Holy. what are you doing here?" Now. we're acting like we know each other. He. goes, "What are you doing here?" I go, "Man, I ain't seen you in forever. I. didn't know you lived around here." I. go, "Man, this is a nice truck." And as. I'm walking up to talk to him, Luke's. looking at us and then what he doesn't. see is the Bearecat, which is the. military vehicle the SWAT team uses and. it's coming over the hill. >> So, he's focused on us and I jump into. the truck right when they pull up. Right. when I'm jumping into the truck going, "Go, go, go." They're right there. They.

got I mean, rifles. They're up on a. turret. Don't move. And they got him. out. No issues. uh arrest with no. nothing wrong. And then while that. happens and then they go pick up. pestilence at his house, they pick up. Helter Skelter um who was the Pop My. Cherry guy. Uh they pick him up at his. work. >> He's wilding. >> And then we keep it quiet because. Thursday morning. >> There's still more to bust. >> Yeah, cuz Wednesday, that was Wednesday. Thursday morning, the Washington.

Philadelphia SWAT team hit Bill Bro. the. Baltimore SWAT team hit. Can't go back. and punish Snake. And then now it starts. coming out. So now it's Friday and I'm. still in the group. I'm just monitoring. and it's Friday and I'm now now the. arrests are starting to come out like, "Holy crap, did you see this? Did you. read this?" And now the affidavits are. starting to pop up and they're like, "Wait, it says here that there's a Fed. that infiltrated this group." And. they're like, "Who's the Fed in the. group?" And everybody's like, "Has. anybody heard from Pale Horse?" No, no, no. And it goes on and goes, "I'm just. watching. I'm watching." Somewhere.

around five o'clock on Friday, Nazaro, Roman Wolf, aka Roman Wolf, comes on and. goes, he says something to the effect. of, "I'm not sure we could have done. anything to to pick him up because he. was one of our best members.". >> And then uh and I was like, "Ah, he. knows it's me." Cuz he's gone back and I. mean, I'm sure he keeps recordings of. all the interviews he's done and stuff. or at least say on this date I did this. >> Yeah. >> And uh and they figured it out and I was. like, "Ah, he's got me." Uh, and and and. it says, "Boom, you've been removed by.

Roman Wolf." I screenshotted it and I. sent it to all the case teams, headquarters, and everything. And I go, "And I'm out.". >> Damn. >> But they were talking, we had some other. coverage in there that people reported. And uh um it turns out there was another. dude that had infiltrated that group, not law enforcement though, was doing. it, helping, you know, reporting to, you. know, uh I don't know whether it be the. Guardian, >> something. >> paper. Yeah. BBC something. Um, so we. got copies of what the chatter after I.

got booted and some of my my case team. printed it for me and when I came in it. was highlighted up on my desk. It says. something like was are you saying the. Fed was the guy with the deep voice on. the cause? And they were like, "Yeah.". And they go, "There's no way, dude. That's one of the most solid neo-Nazis. I've ever been around." You know, and. then the other one would be like, "Oh, there was something really endearing. about him." You know, >> and I look at the squad and I'm like, "See, they do love me. These are my. people, you know. But yeah. >> Oh, damn, bro. >> Yeah. >> And then and then you then you get home.

and you go [sighs]. now. Now I take a shower. >> Yeah. How long do you take off after. that? >> It depends. Uh because I used to not. take any days off, but that ended up. being my downfall. And. >> uh I and then I learned how not to do. that to myself. So uh by that time I'm. long in the tooth. >> Um I could have worked till I was 57. That's the cut off for the FBI, but I. was 50 at this point. Uh or at least I. retired at 50. >> Well, you look great, man. >> Yeah. So, it was like uh you know, I was. like that one I probably took a week.

off, you know, just relax, chill. Called. my pastor, though, especially after that. Halloween weekend. I was like, man, I. feel kind of like you said, my spirit. I. was like, I feel kind of dirty, man. You're not praying over me, you know? >> And did you have a family during this? >> Yeah. Do you still have a family? >> Yeah. Uh yeah, but I'm going through a. divorce. >> Are you? >> We didn't make it. not going to talk. about it because it's still going. through, but uh. >> I'm sorry to hear that for you and your. wife. >> Yeah, it's a we're a statistic now, you. know. So, kids kids have grown up, moved. out, and then uh and then I retired and.

Yeah. >> Um do you feel like the job had an. effect on your marriage? >> I'm sure. Um because my wife. was not law enforcement. This was not. her world. Um. essentially, I was her world. So, she. married me, but you married me. You. Yeah, you married the bureau, too. I. mean, you look back and I doing the. book, uh, we had to dive back in because. I wanted to be transparent. That's the.

only way I knew how to be. But I I don't. want it to be all cakes and pies. I want. to tell you when it was sad, too, and. when it was messed up. So, even though. we were happy at the time we were doing. this book, to dive back into times where. we weren't happy, >> uh, that was tough. That was tough, man. to put your mind back when, oh my gosh, you know, 911 hangup call, cops show up. at the house, I got to call my super, you know, whatever, whatever's going on. Me going through, you know, getting. stripped in a basement at gunpoint and. all this stuff. It's just Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it did. Well, I know it did. Uh.

because. especially during some of the cases. early on um when our kids were young, like three and one, man, I'd just to get. rid of her nervous energy, she'd be. moving furniture and stuff. So I'd come. home and you know you walk in the door. and trip over something. I'm like why. the who put the couch here? You know. >> really so much anxiety. >> Yeah. And the way she tells it is that. she finally just had to give it up to. the Lord cuz she she's she could worry. about me all the time. And but I told. her I said when it's my time it's my. time. I think I'm good at what I do. I'm.

not laxidasical. I've been blessed with. this skill set and with this you know. whatever. I've been blessed with all. this. So. >> man, that would be so tough. It'd be. tough to take somebody you love every. day and just let and know that the whole. day there is a risk. >> Well, welcome to first responder in. military. >> Yeah. I mean, >> thank you for saying that. No, you're. right. >> Yeah. I mean, it's. >> God, >> like I said, man, if you're you think a. pitch to hire people is like, "Hey, we're real high in suicide, substance. abuse, divorce, and dying within 5 years. after retiring. Who wants in?".

>> Yeah. Oh, man. I hate to. >> sign me up. I hate to even laugh at. that. >> I know. But it's like, you know, like, so we got to get better. And you're. seeing a lot more stuff. You're seeing a. lot more I I don't know if law. enforcement is going to open up about. it. Uh I they should, but you see a lot. of spec ops, former spec ops, former law. enforcement, and they're getting these. uh they're getting these plant-based. treatments, you know. >> Yeah. I can't even imagine. I never. thought about the stress that spouses. and children must feel with uh a member.

of their family being involved like in a. in a service in like in life risking. service, you know. >> Yeah. I think there should be more. Actually, my wife was saying it from the. jump because we in the FBI we have a a. psychological unit that was specifically. created for undercovers. Um it's called. safeguard. So if I'm an active. undercover, I have to be psychologically. assessed. mandatory. >> Got it. >> Um and then we expanded it out and it's. being used to do a lot of things. So.

like if you're a agent or a task force. officer and you work uh innocent images, crimes against children, we get you. assessed cuz it's tough to look at that. stuff. >> and and see that kind of stuff on a. daily basis. >> Um had to take a little bathroom break. there, man. >> Let's go. >> This is the longest episode we've ever. had, I think, man. So, thank you for. your attention to detail and just taking. us down some. >> being a slow talker. >> Hey, [laughter] just taking us down some. memories of yours, man. It's nice. It's.

nice to listen to a storytell, you know, someone share share their story um and. share stories from their book and um I. know I I know you had mentioned earlier, we talked a little bit about the 1enters. >> um and and you had a a pretty famed case. with the outlaws. Can you take me into. that? >> Sure. Um. again, longest undercover I did, two. years. Um, uh, the infiltration, I kind of got rec I can't remember again. if I got recruited or I saw a canvas,

but it was probably just a phone call. Um, because as I said, working at the UC. school at the undercover school, um, if. you in the bureau, if you say, "All. right, we've got 600 certified. undercovers." How many of those. undercovers have been the primary. undercover on an operation on one? It's. going to dwindle down. more than one, less than five, it's going to dwindle. down. More than five, less than 10, now. it's really getting dwindled down. If. you get to like that 10 and over mark, it's generally. we all know each other cuz we all go.

back to the program. We all help out. with the school and stuff and and you. know who's active and who isn't. So, somebody reaches out. I went up and did. the interview uh in Massachusetts um in. Boston and I got the gig. Um, we talked. about all kinds of things on like what. ways to go in, ways to not go in. I. preferred to go in cold, which means I'm. not being introduced by a source. >> Go into. >> go to try to make that bump. In other. words, the outlaws were already. predicated. They've already.

>> The Outlaws are a. >> The Outlaw Motorcycle Club is a 1enter. club. It's the probably the second. largest. Hell's Angels is probably the. largest. >> Okay. >> But worldwide and that's that's their. that's their colors right there. They. they refer to the skull as Charlie. >> Okay. The AOA uh American Outlaws. Association. Um they started in Makook, Illinois in 1935. The Outlaws MC is the. oldest outlaw biker club in the world. with 441 chapters located in 43. countries. The club is also the second.

largest in the world behind the Hell's. Angels. Um and what made you is it still. active? >> Uh oh yeah, the Outlaws are still going. strong. And what made you want to. infiltrate them? >> Well, it it's the case team. It's not. necessarily me. It's that there's a case. team and the task force and and and. state and local law enforcement that. have been working up there and they've. got different over they've got different. crimes. They've arrested people, but. they they're at a point now in their. investigation where they feel like they.

can get it undercover or that's the next. step to do. >> Got it. And the whole group outlaws is. not a criminal organization. There was. just somebody that was doing crime in. it. >> Correct. Got it. >> That's the argument. Like like I said. earlier, somebody's like, "We're all 1. percententers criminals." Like, >> not necessarily, but it's kind of the. point of being a 1enter. You know what I. mean? But like all bikers, you know, I. didn't, you know, I've heard them say, or not all of them, but the ones I. infiltrate is like, I didn't join the. outlaws to be. >> a beta, right? >> I joined the outlaws to be an alpha, >> right? >> I'm going out here. I don't care what. I'm doing. I'm an outlaw.

>> Yeah. Are all privy equity people. criminals? >> Yeah. [laughter]. But uh so they these guys were. predicated the Tata chapter specifically. Taon Massachusetts and I went up I. interviewed and and I said look okay my. idea was just let me go in there. So. what I did because I used to work at. gentleman's clubs which is an oxymoron. in my opinion because there's no. gentleman in there [laughter]. and neither was I back then living in. the flesh as they say. Um.

>> Amen. >> I know right. Then you have two. daughters and it's all girl dogs. I'm. like, "Y'all stay away from any pole in. this house." I swear. No, I'm just. kidding. [laughter]. Uh, but I uh I knew how those. establishments worked. So, I went uh I. would go in uh when like dayshift when. it wasn't and the outlaws weren't all in. there cuz I we knew that they told me. the bar they were at and stuff. So. that's what [clears throat] I did maybe. two, three times because human nature is.

to exaggerate, you know. So the night. that they're finally coming in, the. outlaws are finally coming in. >> Coming into the strip club. >> Yeah. Because I'm there now. Okay. So. they have uh a lot of your biker clubs, 1enter clubs, have a mandatory meeting. every week. They refer to that as. church. >> Uh some clubs, that's where they talk. dirty business. You know, you leave your. phones outside, all that thing. Or it. just might be shooting the bull. It. might be time to collect the dues, whatever. But the surveillance team was. on them. I'm already at the Foxy Lady,

which was the the strip club. >> And it's in Oregon. >> It was in Brockton, Massachusetts. >> Got it. >> So Taon and Brockton are right next to. each other. Okay. >> But the strip clubs in Brockton. So I'm. already at the Foxy Lady. I'm getting. some drinks. I'm telling jokes. People. are laughing. >> And then here comes like 13, 15 outlaws. And they take the whole back wall in the. back bar. Sea of black leather and. testosterone. Right. And originally I'd. been told that they weren't allowed to. wear their colors, which is the the vest. with the moniker you saw. You got that's. their cut. And I'm that was one of my.

first questions. I'm like, "Hey man, can. they wear their colors in the club in. the bars?" And they're like, "No, they're not allowed to." And I'm like, "Okay, that's makes it easier for me.". >> Yeah. >> Cuz now I'm just a tattooed dude. drinking whiskey, looking at naked. people, listening to heavy metal music. It's the same thing the guy next to me. is doing. But when they come in and. they're all wearing their colors, that. changes my approach cuz listen to me. Do. I sound like I'm from Boston? Absolutely. not. >> Soon as I start talking, they're like, "Where the f are you from?" You know, and I'm like, you know, >> deep south, [laughter]. south, south. I'm from South Boston.

>> Um, I'm a South, but uh. >> South Carolina. >> Yeah, South Carolina. That's it. You. know, Kacalaki. So I, you know, do you. walk over around the bar and go, "Hey. fellas, y'all ride?" No, I'm gonna take. a butt kicking or something. Um, so I. started working. doing doing what I do, I guess. Uh, there was one guy that they had said. that was in the group and they had the. intel perfect on him. He loved to be. surrounded by big dudes. He liked to be. the center of attention. So, I'm.

laughing it up and I'm cutting it up and. it's getting louder and louder and but. I've got people around me. I can see. him, you know, it's like fishing like I. can see him looking, you know, and I'm. like, "Okay, all right." He's paying. attention now. I was a bigger dude, 6'4, probably 280 then and holding it very. well. And uh he uh I see him talking to. the bartender. Well, what's he saying? Who is that? Oh, that dude's from Texas, man. He comes here all the time. All the. time, two, three times, you know, whatever. Then soon eventually he yells at me and.

he says he Yeah, there I am. Right there. after a shoulder surgery, he yells at me. and he says, "Hey, where the f are you. from?" home and I'm like, "Man, down. near the border of Mexico. What?" So, we. start jugging back and forth. I think. he's sitting me a drink first. Called me. over. I went over start talking. Next. thing you know, we're hitting it off. >> Um, he's giving me cards for the Lobster. Festival, which is uh Lobster Fest. Uh, >> yeah. They love it. >> Yeah. Lobster. And it was going to be in.

like the next month. And he said, "Just. tell them you're with me." And so then. you start you just start ingratiating. and you start getting trust. >> Yeah. And. >> they love a lobster, man. They love a. fish that can pinch you. >> Yeah, man. And me, too. I'm I'm a I'm a. bottom feeder. All of them, man. All. them shrimp. Shrimp and crab legs. I can. eat my weight in that stuff. >> Yeah. I'm a top. >> Yeah. So, eventually you get in and you make more. and more acquaintances. And I came in as. a sight survey specialist. The same kind. of thing I did on the base case. But,

um, that allowed me to travel. it. allowed me to be there and not live. there or whatever, you know. Uh I found. quickly when I started flying a lot that. even in Houston when I was based in. Macallen, there's [clears throat] people. that don't live in Houston, but there's. so many daggum flights they literally. fly in, work, fly home or they might. come in for the week and then go home on. the weekend. >> So I I said, "Well, I can sell that cuz. it's true. I mean, I've seen plenty of. people doing it." So that's kind of what. I was doing. And. >> you were living in Texas and flying in.

for work. >> Yep. And then eventually they find out. that I'm also a criminal. Shocker, right? Cuz they're already predicated. I. mean, >> and what were you flying for? Just to be. part of the group? >> No, I originally said I'm there doing. site survey specialist work for. investors that are looking to buy a. property. And I would go do that and and. I would actually go legitimately go down. to the clerk of court and pull records. and stuff and because again, you want it. to look, smell, taste, feel real. Um. but uh they what they eventually learned.

or what I portrayed and what they. believed was that I was a high ranking. if not the leader of an high ranking. member if not the leader of an. international theft ring and I was. moving stuff into Mexico. >> Um so it started with some insurance. fraud. They were report vehicles stolen. motorcycles. Um, and this is all based on the truth. because at that time when I was living. in the border, uh, I'd already learned. through autotheft groups, task forces.

and stuff and from the insurance company. that Harley-Davidsons and V8 4x4s, man, the cartel, they would steal them all. the time. Got it. So, >> so I'm telling the truth and and they do. motorcycles first. So, they report three. or four Harley stolen. So, they get the. stolen money from their insurance. company. I pay a stolen price, which is. usually around 20%. uh of what the real price would be, and. then I'm off. Well, they don't get. arrested. And then the next thing you. know, it's a it's a truck. And the next.

thing you know, then we get. full-fledged. Now it's like, when you. coming back, text, when you coming back, I got three things lined up. >> So you pull up and man, we would load. F350s. >> Yeah. Steal my wife. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> F350, stuff like that. But even if you. were worried about predication, like if. you're predicated, and for the people. that don't know that, it just means that. we've got evidence that you either. talked about it or doing it. So. [laughter]. if we have nothing on you and I'm coming.

up to bump you and I just come and go, "Hey man, you want some marijuana or you. want you want a kilo of coke?" That's. that's odd and that's not right. I'm now. leading it, right? But when the first. time I walk outside with the president. of the Outlaws chapter who went by Joe. Dogs. So he's the he's the chapter. president. We walk outside and he goes, "Where do. you live?" I said, "Mcalla." He goes, "Where's that?" It's right on the. border. Next question. How much can you. get a kilo of cocaine for? >> I'm like about 13 right now. Lives. between 11 and 13 on the border. He. goes, "Man, if I could get them for 13.". I said, "No, you don't get them for 13.

unless you come to the border and then. you drive them back up. The reason they. cost 25 to 30 up here is because it has. to make it here from the border. >> Not a good drug dealer. [laughter]. >> Or his math was off. Not a good. businessman. I'm like, "No, that's not. how it works. There's risk involved.". >> Well, it's a good pitch. I want to get. it for the same as you. >> I know. Yeah. Um, so then next thing you. know, like I said, F350s, uh, 4x4 Tahoe. >> So, it's a lot of insurance fraud at.

first. >> At first. Got it. >> Then I've gained trust. Now they carjack. somebody and they're calling me texts. We got one that is hot. I mean, it is on. fire right now. We just took this dude. at gunpoint. We almost killed him. Blah. blah blah. And I'm like, don't worry. about it. I got it. And now I'm moving. that. Now I'm gaining more trust. Right. So as the case goes on. >> And are y'all using code language? Like. we got a bad lobster up here or. something like that. >> You can, but what's comical about that, Theo, is I've sat on so many wire taps. and and and we've run wiretaps and. you're listening or you get on the phone. yourself as undercover and you're being.

all like super operational security. You're like, "Okay, the the bird is in. the cage and I've got three. cheeseburgers out back.". >> 5 minutes into the conversation, I'm. telling you, 99% of the time they're. just talking openly dirty. It's like. they start with it, you know, like, you. know what I mean? >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Yeah. There's like a whisper in the. wigwam or whatever, >> right? Yeah. So, like I had a guy on. another case. I won't go into it cuz I. stay on the outlaws, but this is what he. he's like, "Now, Scott, you know I don't. do cocaine anymore." And I'm looking at.

him going, "I know, man. I know. He. goes, "I used to do a boatload of it, but I don't do it anymore." I said, "I. know." He said, "This right here, that's. just a bump." And he goes on and I go, "You just did cocaine." And he said, "Okay." And he says, "You know, I don't. sell it anymore either." I said, "I. know, Mike." He said, "I used to sell. truckloads of it, but I don't anymore.". I said, "I know, man." He goes, "But if. you want them 5'8 balls, I'll get them. for 750." [laughter] It's just like I'm. like. I'm like I am confused. So, so during.

this case, a guy I didn't tell you. about, it was actually a picture of him. in that picture you pulled up, the red. shirt, red t-shirt. That's Scott Town. Uh, I talk thoroughly about Scott Town. in the book. Again, I told you I worked. undercover from 96 to 2022 roughly. >> And how much cocaine you on right there. with that bad arm, but look at you. grinning. [laughter]. >> That would be muscle relaxers and pain. pills. >> My god, boy. >> I'm like, I I'm like less than a week. out, I think, right there. You smiled at. a gram at least, brother. [laughter].

>> No, I did not. Uh, >> just joking. Just joking. >> Yeah, I know. >> Okay, so Scott Town. >> Uh, so this is legitimately the closest. relationship I've ever built undercover. We bonded so well. I It was scary. Like, I mean, I'm talking like we could. complete each other's sentences. We. thought the same. It was literally the. story of that proverbial fork in the. road. He went that way and I went that. way and I easily could have gone his. way. And maybe that's why I was good at.

at my skill set in these types of. environments because. >> he was just friends. >> Well, he was he was he went to jail. He. was a target. I mean, he he was not a. patched member. Um, his story was he was. going to be patched, but he was also. doing some stuff for the mafia and. somewhere his group got pinched and he. was he was he was looking at time. And. at that point in time, he had four. daughters. And he said, "I don't want to. I don't want to go to prison with my. four daughters." And I was like, "Okay, man. Cool." Um, but there would be like.

a lot. They would be talk like, "Man, grenades, bazookas, whatever, rocket. launchers." Not a bazooka, but rocket. launcher. Yeah. >> Um, but those things would talk and then. it wouldn't come to or somebody would. come in talking big and we'd be like, "Oh, this looks good." And then it. wouldn't come through. But, but after. the car jackings and things like that, >> we start getting more and more because. the case team is also running a title. three wiretap. Um, and eventually we got. to the point in the case where I let. them know, not all at once, but I let. them know that yes, I did used to be in.

the drug trade. Got it. >> But heat was getting close. People were. getting pinched, and I backed out of it. because running everything south. Most of the time, law enforcement is. looking for money or guns going south to. trade for dope or buy dope. >> Got it. >> I'm like, if you got a sto This is my. story to I'm like I'm like if you got a. truck full of stolen vehicles if the. bill of laden I mean what's a truck. driver know he sees a bill of laden he. does what he does. I was just talking. blowing smoke but it kind of making it. >> making them comfortable relaxed. Um I.

think enough but I eventually let them. know I did used to be in the dope game. because from day one they wereounding. me. When when you going to introduce to. somebody down there? When you going to. think of it what does a drug dealer. want? They want the purest dope they can. get at the cheapest price they can get. So that way you can step on it and make. some money, right? >> So imagine having a pipeline in little. old Ton, Massachusetts directly from the. cartel. >> Let's go. >> Yeah. Right. You're getting keys. >> So that's what they saw in you.

>> Yeah. >> Got it. >> Yeah. >> And that was all fictional. >> That was my backstory. Yeah. That was my. legend. Yeah. But it wasn't really. happening, right? Um, and like all the. stolen vehicles, they would think. they're going to No, we we we make sure. nobody's following them, but then that. semi would turn around and head up north. of Boston or something to a warehouse. and by the end of the case, you got a. warehouse full of stolen parts and cars. and motorcycles and stolen cars and. whatever. >> Big trucks. Big trucks. But. >> so the case gets to a point like, yeah,

sorry. >> That's good. So I start laying out that. I was in the dope game and Joe Dogs is. chomping at the bit, man. He's like, he's like, "Dude, if I you got to. introduce me." And I started saying, "My. guy's Manny. Manny Manny." Um, and. they're like, "Man, if I can meet. Manny." Well, the whole ruse was, and. this this technique's been used, uh, and. it was a drug protection. I said, "Look, here's the deal. I laid it out over a. long period of time, but I'm like, look, Manny reached out to me, wants to know, he wanted my truck drivers to deliver a.

load into Canada." And I and the reason. I told them that a white guy, the. gringo, never got kicked out of a. Mexican drug trafficking organization or. international theft ring is because I. was the guy with the dirty contacts at. the port of entry and at the. checkpoints. And yes, there's. corruption. Not all, but I'm saying it. it's there's corruption cases on the. border. I mean, think about this. >> You get somebody offers you 15 grand to. do this. >> next. I don't know if you're broke. I mean, you know what I mean? Um, so not saying.

everybody's dirty, uh, but I'm saying. that's why that was my story and they. believed it cuz why else would they keep. me in? So when I did that story about. going to Canada, I said, "Hey, um, does. your guy do do you still have your. people at the checkpoint or at the point. of entry?" No, they fell through. I. said, "I'm not letting my truck drivers. do it.". >> I said, "But I've been beingounded. We. just want to meet them." And I'm like, "What if they come here and we just meet. and we help this cuz we want to make. sure nothing's getting ripped and all. that stuff." And they're like, "Yeah,

man. That'd be awesome." So that's what. we started laying out. Now Scott Town. jumps on. And Scott Town, I even look at. him and I'm like, "Dude, why are you. doing this?". >> What? You told me you went, "No, there's a strong argument to be made. that the reason he did that is cuz he. liked me so much.". >> No way. >> Because he. >> So you kind of let him into it even just. by being buddies. It's not an entrapment. thing, but it's like if you ask him, he's probably going to say something. like this. Um, I didn't want to do it and I was.

suspicious, but he knew Joe Dogs and the. other people involved could screw it up. really bad. And if I got hurt and he. wasn't there, he'd never forgive. himself. >> You see what I'm saying? >> So, y'all were close, huh? >> Yeah. Tight. Real tight. Um, but so. there's a point in the case and. I'm not I'm bouncing his daughter on my. knee. His daughter's one, my youngest. daughter's one. So, they kind of are. making the same noises and moving the.

same, but I'm not at home with my. daughter. I'm there with his. And, you. know, you're looking I know the. training. I know I I put the training. on, but I'm looking over going, "Man, I. love this guy. I mean, he's I mean, yeah. I mean, if he does criminal stuff, okay. But I mean, we think the same. He. likes to do this. I like to do. We work. out, fight, ride, all that stuff, man. And uh. >> do you miss him? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You still keep in touch with him? >> Maybe. Maybe now after after all this.

came out. Yeah. It's uh. it's pretty amazing, actually. M uh I've. also been trolled by people we put in. jail, too. It's pretty funny. But uh uh. maybe I'll end it on that. But so. I'm looking at the refrigerator and I'm. thinking all these thoughts and I'm. like, man, I'm looking at the. refrigerator. He's got all kinds of. stickers and magnets and stuff. And I. saw one that said WWSD. Now, if you're in the Christian faith, you see WWJD a lot. What would Jesus do?

What would Jesus do? Wristbands and. stuff. And I looked over and I go, WWSD. And I looked and it said, "What would. Satan do?" And I went, "Oh, no. He's. different. He's different." But it was. just like a tough guy thing. And then uh. >> So he wasn't a real Satanist. >> No. No. He's just just just bolstering. >> Just joking around with magnets. >> Yeah. But uh but I was like, "Oh, no. We're not the same. You're going to. jail." [laughter]. >> But uh I uh. >> But is that weird, man, to be hanging. out with somebody and always thinking in.

the back of your head, they're going to. go to jail. >> Yeah. It sounds like a power. trip. >> No, actually it could be it could give. you some stress. It could give you some. PTSD. You can start getting anxiety. because you're sitting there going, "Okay, you're you're fearing the end of. the case. You're fearing them finding. out who you are. You're fearing of this. relationship that you built and I know. there'll be plenty of maybe law. enforcement or even people on the case. would be like, I can't believe you. talking like that. Look, man, I'm human. I love that guy.". >> Yes. Well, would it be ever be weird. like if you were leaving a room together. or something and like you wouldn't want.

to walk out first? That would be my fear. all the time. I'd always be like, I got. to walk behind because I don't want to, you know what I'm saying? What if they. know something or they're leading me. somewhere? >> Well, I'll say this. You a lot of cops, >> A lot of cops sit in a restaurant, they. keep their back to the wall. Yeah. Because you want to see everything. >> Yeah. >> When you're undercover, can you do that? I mean, can I come in there and hug the. wall with my back the whole way through. or do I just got to look like I'm a. normal person? >> People would catch on. >> Yeah. So, you don't want to look, you. don't want to raise suspicion. >> Got it. >> So, the case is going and we get to the. point where we're going to do the drug. deal. Um, got everything lined up.

months and months and months. Scott's. in. Uh there's some outlaws from. Brockton that are in it. There's some. outlaws from Taunton that are in it. And. uh you know, you ask the 1enter, are. they all criminals? No. I mean, you look. at the Brockton chapter, let's say most. of them had day jobs. Maybe they bent, maybe they did time, maybe they didn't. But you go to the Taunt chapter and out. of like 13 uh 13 to 15 outlaws, one and. a half had a job. I say half because. that guy was a tattoo artist and a. piercer, but I don't think he worked,

you know, 9 to5. Yeah. >> Seven days a week. It was more like a. part-time thing. The other guy had a. towing company. Everybody else was a. straight thug. >> All criminal activity to make money, whether it's robbing, home invasion, carjacking, theft, dope, you know. >> Yeah. >> So, um. >> I would do the dope. >> Yeah. [laughter]. Yeah. Yeah. I'd probably do that every. car theft for sure. Um, but I. >> cuz I don't even like driving at night. that much. >> really. >> I don't love it. >> So, we get. >> But anyway, go on. >> We get to the night before. We've lined.

everything up and the assistant United. States attorney um is like, "Hey, they're talking are they talking about. this in the clubhouse, you know, kind of. thing about this drug deal that we're. getting ready to do and all this." I. said, "Yeah, I mean, I'm sure we'll talk. about it." Hey, you know, and from an. from an investigative or evidence. standpoint, it would be good to have. because if they're talking about that. planning and all that, that'll help with. like asset forfeiture and getting search. warrants for the for the uh property and. stuff.

>> So, just having recordings of them. talking about it. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I go to the h I go to. the clubhouse. Joe Dogs tells me to come. over. It's the night before we're going. to do the big drug deal. They don't know. it, but we've got 50 kilos of real. cocaine and we got 1,000 lbs of real. weed. >> Let's go. And we're going to have to. move it from one truck to another. Now. snipers are up on the roof. I mean, we. got SWAT all in the hotel. I mean, I. literally did like the TV thing where. you walk in and you can't see nothing. cuz the projector's on your face. And. they're like, "This is the guy that's. going to be the undercover, you know.". And I'm like, "Yeah, I look a lot like.

the other dudes. Don't shoot me, you. know. [laughter]. Just tell me. I'll be real steel, man.". Uh, you know. [laughter]. >> Yeah, dude. I be like, I'm the guy. wearing like the I would wear like a. special neck brace or like a um maybe. like a John Elway jersey or something. Something to stand out, dude. I would. wear like a Yeah, like a Mason Crosby. jersey. I would wear something that like. do not shoot this. >> crash test dummy full jumpsuit, you. know, right? With reflections on it.

Yeah. >> Yeah. Like a suicide boy shirt or maybe. not that. That might not help. That. might not help. >> So So uh I remember here's a funny one. Joe Dogs, I said, "Hey man, we got to be. nonchalant. We're going to be out here. doing all this stuff. I was like, "Hey, uh, wear wear something that doesn't. attract a lot of attention." Yeah. Yeah. Not the way he dressed. You walk out. there with a shirt that says, "F that. bitch.". >> Oh, yeah. >> In all caps. And I'm like, "That's. lowkey." All right. >> Well, I mean, who knows what he told her. before that? >> I know, right? [laughter].

So, so it's the night before I get. there, uh, and they're having church. They're still having church. I'm banging. on the door and it's weird, man. Nobody's coming and all of a sudden Joe. Dogs does that, you know, like, "Hey, uh. uh uh we're not ready yet." And I'm. like, "Well, why'd you call me over. here?". >> Yeah. >> I'm not thinking nothing. I go, "Uh, he. tells me to take a probate," which would. be somebody on probation or they call. them prospects. You're not a full patch. member yet. You're you you've advanced. from hangaround status. You're trying to. become a full patch member. So, he says,

"Hey, take probate, Obie. Y'all go get. something to eat." So, we went down to a. restaurant, got a couple of drinks, something to eat, came back, and. I go into the clubhouse. And when I go. in the clubhouse, I've been in that. thing like teen, I don't know, there's. one door I'd never been in. Now, for the. listeners that may not know, um, at. least with this chapter, if you weren't. a patch member, which I wasn't, um, you're not allowed to touch the door, you're not allowed to touch the phone, but they're giving you drinks for free,

right? I had been asked and actually. been told that I need to become an. outlaw. Um, but I painted it as like I. travel all over the country, man. I. can't have that, >> right? >> That bullseye on my back, you know? But. I'm very humbled by it kind of thing. >> Um, but so I go in there and at this. point in the case, it's been a year and. a half. I'm a year and a half in and. my closest relationship is Scott Town. My second closest relationship is at. point is the enforcer who goes by who.

went by the street name Clothesline. His. real name is Brian Dega. >> So that was my second closest. relationship. My third closest was the. president Joe Dogs and then it just. trickles down from there. But by this. time I've been all over the country. I've been to Sturgis. I've been to you. know Daytona wherever riding all over. the place. So I've met outlaws all over. Actually I've met outlaws from all over. the world. Mhm. >> And uh they were actually recruiting. myself and Scott Town cuz I was bigger.

then too. Uh but it's it Boston's a. little weird because Boston and North is. Hell's Angel territory. Boston and South. was Outlaws territory and they were arts. rivals and then you get to Cape Cod and. Hell's Angels had a chapter there. Got. it. So, the Outlaws were looking to set. up a chapter in Cape Cod, but they. wanted to fill it with big, strong dudes. that could handle themselves. Okay? And. they were recruiting recruiting us for. that, you know. >> Um, so, uh, I go into the clubhouse,

door shuts behind me, uh, dead bolts, uh, steel frame door. They have. >> the door you've never been in. >> No, no, no. This is this is this the. entry door, right? So, if you if you get. inside, you'll see that they've mel uh. welded metal hooks to the steel frame of. the door and put a steel bar across it. So, that's going to from a breacher. standpoint, it's going to be a little. harder. It'd be tougher to breach. >> Got it. >> Um, so I'm in there. I'm having some. drinks and I'd been there, like I said, maybe 20 time. Who knows? There's one. door I'd never been in. Uh, and.

Clothesline, my second closest friend, >> says uh he signed a friend, right? Friend. Uh, he liked Scott Callaway. I. don't think he liked Scott Payne too. much, but he says, "Hey, text, can I. talk to you for a minute?" Or he says, "Do you got a minute?" Either, "Can I. talk to you for a minute or you got a. minute?" I'm like, "Yeah." So, as I'm. walking, he grabs an ashtray and a. lighter and or he tells somebody to. And. we turn in and it is a very tight. stairwell. It's a very to call it a. basement down there is being very.

generous. More like a seller. Got it. >> Crawl space. I couldn't stand up. straight in it, but it's a northeastern. home, kind of split level. >> And as I'm walking in, Chocolate Scott, another member, comes in right behind. me. >> Scott. Yeah. Chocolate Scott. >> Chocolate Scott. Chocolate Scott. >> Yeah. They call him Chocolate Scott or. or or Black Scott. But the thing is is. uh he looked like a black guy, which you. can't be in the Outlaws. >> Oh yeah, >> you can't be. >> I'm guessing I was assuming he. >> No, he said he was Indian. >> He said he looked like he said he said.

he was Indians, but they named him. Chocolate Sky. >> Oh yeah. Um, so. >> that would be my name. [laughter]. >> Yeah. So I I follow As soon as I turn in. behind clos line and Chocolate Scott. comes in right behind me, I know. something's not right. >> And now it's really tight. And you get. down there. It was a little bit of a. false start cuz there was something down. there that that another member of Veg. did not want me to see. >> And they come down. So going down those. steps, I'm already getting an adrenaline. dump like I was talking about earlier, right? We come back up. I'm not free to. leave. Outlaws everywhere. They're.

hiding whatever they needed to hide. I'm. not sure what it was, but then it's. like, "Okay, let's go back down." So, I. get down there and. >> so they take you halfway down, they take. you back up. >> Yeah. They take me down. Be weird. Terrible. >> It's almost like you're surprised party, but they're not ready. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because if V just walks down. there, he's doing this. I see him doing. a movement. >> Uh that's like, "Hey, get out." And I'm. like, "I don't know what's going on.". But I'm looking I'm looking for plastic. on the floor. I saw a rope and I'm like,

"Oh, >> you saw a rope?". >> Yeah. Yeah. Like, and I'm like, "Oh.". >> And you got to be thinking, "I'm getting. out of here then.". >> No, I wasn't. Uh, >> what' you think they were going to do? >> I didn't know yet. But, >> but even if you saw. >> Even if I tried to leave, I mean, think. about it. >> Like, if I see a rope at all, I never. see a rope, right? Cuz I'm. >> 13 outlaws. But I'm I'm And they're they. got guns. They already showed me their. guns. >> Oh, got it. >> Yeah. So, I'm at basically at gunpoint, you know. >> Okay. Um, so I go back up and we walk. back down and that's when we get down. there and clos line says, "Hey, there's.

a lot of going on. It's my job to. take care of my brothers cuz he's the. enforcer.". >> Mhm. >> And he says, "Uh, I need you to take all. your clothes off. Everything. Boots and. everything.". >> And would you give them boots or. sneakers? >> I had boots. Um, and uh, he said, [clears throat] "I need you to write. down your full name, your date of birth, your address, your wife's name." He go, "I'm not going. to ask for your kids' names, even though. I can find them out if I need to." And. he goes, "Everything, social security, everything." I said, 'Okay. But you can.

hear my voice already cuz I'm having an. adrenaline dump. My voice is higher. My. throat's tighter. I'm hearing that. I'm. hearing that underwater auditory. exclusion. It's going woof woof. >> Whoa. I would be so scared. >> My time dilation. My eyes are clicking. Everything I'm hearing is going, I need. you to write down your That's what I'm. hearing. It's like on one of those. boxing video games when you're about to. get knocked out or whatever and you're. like and it starts to get kind of. >> blurry. Yeah. Yeah. So, >> and did you write your real stuff on. there?

>> Yeah. No, no, no, I didn't. I didn't. But I forgot my middle name because of. the stress. I forgot my middle name was. uh uh Andrew. >> Did you just make one up? >> No. No, I should have. That would have. been a smart thing to do, but but then. again, maybe not if they're really going. to run it. >> Yeah. >> Right. So, I'm like I'm going Scott. Callaway. Scott Callaway. Scott. Callaway. And I go Scott Joseph. Callaway. And I'm like, nope. I'm going. through this rolodex in my head. It. feels like it's eight minutes. It's a. couple of seconds. Um and then I. remembered my initials and I remembered, oh, I'm Scott Andrew Callaway. But what.

I did is like when we talked about. shootings and stuff and and and officers. not knowing that that they did it. certain things, same thing happened to. me, but it was on a verbal thing. I. would have never known I said this. unless I didn't listen to the recording. Uh unless I listened to the recording. But while I'm forgetting my middle name, I turn and I go, "And what else do you. need?" But it sounds like this. And what. else do you need? Cuz I'm I'm freaking. out, >> right? My Yeah, my addiction's terrible. Talking through my nose, higher pitch.

voice. >> And then I hear them yell, "What do you. need for that website?" I go, "Oh, okay." Cuz I'm I'm listening. I'm still. listening. Even though I'm freaking out, I'm like, "Oh, okay. They're going to. write this down. They're going to run. me. They're going to Google me." And. back then they had like a. >> who'sar.com you could go to and run see. No. No. Um, but I said, "Okay, I'm. feeling better.". >> Feet finder they had too. >> Yeah. Right. So then he says, "Uh, and. then I need you to take all your clothes. off. Everything.". >> Oh, damn. They want you on feet. >> He said, he says, he says, "Cuz I got to. go because I got to check you for a. wire." Here's the issue, Theo. I was.

wired to the hilt. >> Nuhuh. >> I had two recording devices on me and a. transmitter. And I won't say where, what, but uh. use a damn iPhone at that point. >> Yeah. Well, back then. >> No, I mean, you were one. >> Yeah. Yes. all that on you. >> Uh and back then that would have been. like circa 2006ish. 7ish. They uh they were big on. nexttails. So, >> you know, I know. Yeah. Great radio. Yeah. But terrible to call somebody on.

>> Yeah. Bring some milk on. >> I could key you up in Japan and it'd be. like it'd be like what's up? Hey, you. know, fine. But if I tried to call you, we couldn't hear nothing. I'm like, I. don't know. >> It sounded Japanese. >> Yeah. I'm like, I don't know what you're. talking about. >> So, D. So, they trying to strip search. you. They did. Um, >> and were you wearing underpants or. boxers, you think? >> Uh, boxer briefs. Um, >> nice. >> Yeah. The comfort of a boxer, but the. support of a brief. >> Yeah. Look, I got them on right now. >> I do, too. Uh, >> pretty cool. >> And, uh, and much like that night, they're not white, which I was happy.

>> Oh, [laughter]. yeah. If you'd have soled them up. >> Sold them up. Yeah. >> You know what I'm saying? >> Uh, [laughter] little of that Back Bay. Chow. >> I Well, I tell them I say I say, "Uh, >> so were you joking at this point or were. you scared?" No, I was scared to death. I was scared to I I joke about it now, but I was scared to death. >> So, you took your clothes off here. >> So, what I did is I took I took my coat. and it was cold cuz it was like. November, so I probably had like more. than one t-shirt on. Took all that off. Took my boots off and I dropped my. underwear and jeans down to my ankles. I. never kicked them off. So, from the.

ankles up, I'm completely naked. They. checked me for a wire. Um, he missed one. thing that was that was I had in my. sock. It was a device, but you know, um, so I go, he pats me down and I'm having. an adrenaline dump, right? Everything's. slow motion. I can feel my heart. beating. My my man parts felt like they. were in my throat, you know, >> and are they calling you or anything? Are they calling you names and.

>> No. No, but during the talk there, that's a good question cuz. we, at least the way I was trained, you. just don't want to vapor lock. You don't. want to get the deer in the headlights. looks. At least keep talking. At least. keep trying to find something, right? Find a way out, get some information. >> What are you doing, guys? What's this. about? What's the big. >> I did. I go, "Should I ask what's going. on?" And they're like, "Hey, man. This. is some precautions, blah, blah, blah.". And what he says to me, he goes, "Trust. me, man." He goes, "I like you a lot.". He goes, "But I've got my doubts, too.". He said, "Um, if somebody accused me of. being a fed, I'd probably smash him in.

the effing mouth." And I said, "I'm. not." I looked at him. I said, "I'm not. happy." And he goes, "I wouldn't be. either." But what you can't see is. because we know each other. Even though. my words may be saying one thing, what. my face is saying, the clos line is, "Tell me I'm okay. >> Tell me I'm going to be all right." His. facial expressions back to me were, "It's okay." But I was in fact. undercover and I was wired. And if he. found it, I don't know what's going to. happen. So, >> I pull my pants back up. I think I'm. putting my boots on. And he grabs a. piece of clothing and it had something.

in it. And he says, "I'm not going to. find anything in here I don't want to. Like some pictures of my old lady." And. he laughs and he goes and I go, "I hope. not." Now I'm standing there. I can't. stand up straight. I'm on the wall and. I'm watching him need this piece of. clothing with his hands. He's doing this. and I know circa that year what our. equipment was and all that stuff. If he. he would have felt it. Now, uh, he misses it. He looks right at it.

No, >> he misses it. And even while he's. searching it, I don't know I do it, but. you can hear me cuz I'm just standing. there and you can hear me go. [groaning]. cuz I'm like, "What am I going to do?". Right? So, here's the thing. Um, he misses it. He hands me back my stuff. I immediately go into joking because. that's not only me. It's also a defense. mechanism when you're scared, right? >> Yeah. Been joking my whole life. >> Cracking, right? cracking jokes like.

like I said, I'm glad I didn't wear. white underwear. >> Yeah. >> You know, and uh and we go back in the. business and. >> just keep saying that. I'm glad I didn't. wear white. You just keep glitching. I. know, right? Glad I didn't wear them. [laughter]. >> And it's like, what the is. >> What's wrong with him? He's a robot. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Bring in Choco Stain or whatever that. guy's name was. >> Chocolate Sky. >> Chocolate Sky. >> Um so. people always ask me, "What would you. have said if Clothes Line would have. found it?" And I said, 'Well, I remember. it like it was yesterday. It also helps. that I teach it all over the place and I.

still relive it all the dagam time. Um, so there's really little air room for. error there as far as exaggerating and. stuff. So I uh or remembering it wrong. I I said, "Man, I remember it like it. was yesterday.". Maybe my first response would have been, "I don't know some pictures." If he. said, "What is this?" Maybe I would have. said, "I don't know. Some pictures of. your old lady as a joke because he. already threw that line to me. you know, am I going to find anything in here? Uh, the only other thing that I had in my. head, and again, I remember like.

yesterday, I would have looked at him. and said, "The gig is up. I'm an. undercover FBI agent, and we can I can. walk out of here and we can see each. other in court, or all hell's going to. break loose." The problem is is that. would have been a bluff on my part cuz. as far as I knew, every time I'd been in. that clubhouse, my cover team couldn't. hear me. >> Whether it's equipment, walls, whatever. I mean, it's 2026 and I've got first net. and I can walk into a building and I. can't get out, you know, and I'm like, I. don't. So, it's above my pay grade, but. for as far as I know, >> they kept sending you in there.

>> Well, I mean, they had surveillance, you. know. >> Right. Right. Right. >> But, but uh as far as I knew, they can. never hear me. That night at the end of. the shift, you know, you go meet. somewhere predetermined location and I'm. turning over my recording equipment to. the case team and whatever. maybe. they're giving me more money for the. next day or whatever and they do a. debrief. Well, when I got there that. night, what I found out was is that the. first two guys covering me were part of. the main case team. It was uh uh. Sergeant Higinbottom from uh.

Massachusetts State Troopers. Uh. everybody called him Higgy and then. Detective Cummings uh from Brockton PD. And because they had known me for a year. and a half or a little more, uh, whatever happened at that first. interaction with Joe Dogs at the door, it made them think something was up. And. they had pulled close enough or. whatever, they were able to hear. everything. When they heard me getting. stripped. Um, of course they can hear. that I'm scared cuz they know my voice, right? They're radioing back to Boston.

saying, "Hey, anybody in get down here.". And as far as the way I was told is. everybody was coming, blue lights and. siren. >> Wow. [snorts] um down there. Uh and and. they didn't hit it. They they went ahead. and they had a plan because they've been. in that clubhouse on on other law. enforcement activity and they know how. it's set up and they knew how that door. was fortified. So, their plan they they. put their vest on everything and their. plan was if they felt like it was time. to pull the trigger to save me or. whatever, they were going to drive the. van into the cinder block wall beside. the door to kind of breach breach the.

wall. >> So, you're standing there, that's what. you're thinking. if he if he knows. what's going on. Yeah, that's what th. those are your two plans of action. >> and they and. >> and they're out there waiting on I mean. >> and your case team is out there. listening is out there listening and. there's help on the way. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Because clos line didn't find it and. also because that case team uh Higen. Bottom and Cummings. they knew me and they didn't pull the. trigger. They were like hang on he's. still okay. He's still okay. >> Got it. So we go out that night and and.

it's me, Joe Dogs, and Scott Town and I. am livid. I'm raised in hell, you know. And even Joe Dogs is like, "Text, you. got to understand this has happened to. other brothers, other people where. everybody shows up and it's just, you. know, we're the only people there and. everybody else is an undercover, you. know, and I I played it off. I'm like. I'm like, who the hell would spend that. kind of time and money and try to, you. know?". >> Yeah, for sure. >> Besides us, you know, besides me. Uh, but I go back, I probably sleep maybe 30. minutes that night. I go and meet. everybody. Uh I think it's outside of.

IHOP. I hand out the radios and I tell. them where we're going to go and it's. pretty comical on recording because I. say, "All right, we're going back up to. the Westgate Mall in Brockton." And. Chocolate Scott starts bitching. He. goes, "Man, I live right next to there. I could have slept another 40 minutes.". >> Oh, yeah. >> And Joe Dog Joe Dog starts He goes, "You. guys are the lazy." He goes, "You guys, let me get his Let me get it right.". Yeah. He goes, "You guys are the laziest. bunch of damn criminals I've ever met in. my entire life." You know, and I'm even. busting go, "Hey, I thought I left my.

wife at home. Can you stop complaining?". You know, [laughter]. >> talk to this guy. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, we uh we go, we do the. deal. One truck pulls up. Um. >> it's fake drugs. >> No, it's real. >> Yeah, >> it's real drugs. Uh so, I mean there's. they're smelling the weed, you know. >> You must have a good budget up there. then. >> Well, I don't know where the case team. got it. It might have it's probably. evidence from another case. Got it. and. it gets [clears throat] signed out. But. can you imagine if we lost that? FBI. loses 50 kilos of cocaine. Are you. kidding me? So yeah, snipers are up and.

everything. So uh the truck's back up, the undercovers, Joe dogs on the truck, OB's on the truck, we're covering stuff. They're pulling surveillance, you know, and just like normal surveillance. I. mean, they got people, I've been burnt. I've been burnt. There's a guy staring. at me. Calm down, dude. >> Yeah. >> You know, and if a cop shows up, let us. know. We're going to pull the trucks. away. And we pulled off the deal. And. then I went and paid everybody. So y'all. did the deal? >> Yeah, it went it it went across. They. got to meet Manny. Joe Dogs wanted to. meet Manny, who was of course was an. undercover, but he is a Hispanic guy.

that did all kinds of cartel stuff. >> Shout out Manny. >> Yeah, shout out Manny, man. Uh Martin. Suarez. He's actually got a book out, too. >> Oh wow. >> It just And it's it's it's. >> got to check it out. Martin Suarez. >> Martin Suarez. >> Um you do the deal. >> Yeah. And this is uh we get up the next. day and uh like I said, get we do the. deal and then that night maybe I slept a. little bit. You know, >> I'm going to need a massage after all. just hearing all of this. >> And then I fly home and I get I missed.

my flights. The they're delayed, cancelled, whatever. And then I go home. to uh when I landed in Macallen, I would. drove straight to the house. I brushed. my teeth, changed my shirt, loaded up my. daughters, my wife, and my. mother-in-law. And we went to the Rio. Grand Valley FBI Christmas party for. Laredo, Brownsville, and Mallen offices. And I was Santa Claus for the kids. >> after being stripped in the basement at. gunpoint about two nights earlier. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, and I don't stop. So, what So,

what happens? >> Wow. >> If you fast forward a little bit now, we're doing all this stuff. We're still. getting more things. We got the big dope. deal. I'm getting trust here. During. that case, a a president of the Hell's. Angels was murdered uh riding down the. road. We knew that it was a green truck. with Florida plates. We knew that we had. outlaws from Florida up there. And uh. the case kept going and eventually I end. up down in Daytona at a world run. And.

by this point, I'm kind of a zombie. Um. because my MO was I'm a workaholic. I. get it honestly from my parents, but my. my emmo always was like, look, if I can. be above average or if I can on the. squad that I'm on as a case agent or if. I can have some good cases and good. sources, maybe that lets my management. not be able to say no to me. Like, you. know, hey, you're a top producer, Scott, so you can't say no, you can't go on. that SWAT call out or that SWAT school. or that undercover or that undercover.

school. Um, but what I was doing to. myself is I was taking the warrior. mentality, which I think is imperative. for the line of work. >> The warrior mentality. >> Yeah, the warrior mentality. And and I. think that's imperative, but I was. applying it to every situation in my. life. >> So, I was not taking days off cuz I. didn't want management to get mad. >> I was not sleeping hardly at all. >> I got to the point to where I was. drinking I wasn't a big energy drink. guy. Um, >> but you were huffing them, huh? >> Well, no. What it was is I was drinking. like a pot of coffee and taking hydroxy.

cuts with a federan in them and I was. still falling asleep. >> Yeah. >> So I get down to Daytona. We've got. murders that have happened. We get we've. had Sturgis where I arrived and the day. I arrived uh the Hell's Angels shoot. five outlaws point blank range. It was I. think it was two patched one probate. >> in Sturgis that happened. >> Yeah. In Sturgeis and then um and then. two two what they would refer to as old. ladies. Um and it was some serious. wounds like people were paralyzed and. stuff. >> Um it's just dangerous and.

>> put them on a gold wing. >> Yeah. Um yeah, you know, uh hopefully. they turned out uh okay. Um but. >> God, >> so they got all that going on and now. we're wind we're kind of winding down. towards the end of the case. Uh so I. didn't know. We still going but I'm in. Daytona and again by this time here's my. cocktail. I woke up one morning, I could. still feel the whiskey and egg swishing. in my belly. I felt like a piece of. trash. I'm like, "All right, this is it. I'm working out." So, I did like an in. room workout, something like a P90X kind.

of deal. I'm doing push-ups, sit-ups, squats, >> burpees, mountain climbers. >> Uh, and but before I did that, by this. time, I wake up, I take antihistamines, decongestions, hitting an inhaler, uh, which is also a vasio diilator. makes. you shake and stuff, opens up your. lungs. Then I drank two cups of coffee, the strongest coffee I can possibly. make. And then I uh hit three hydroxy. cuts with a federan in them. >> Yeah.

>> So, as I learned later on from the. >> You're a damn jet ski. >> Well, from the from what the doctors. told me, they go, "Uh, Scott, that is a. cocktail for an anxiety attack." And. that's what happened. I started working. out and all that hit me and I was. so beat down. Like, I started. hyperventilating. Um, I mean, it's. humid. It's It's Daytona, you know. Yeah. >> But I'm in there, but whatever. I came. up and I forgot all about combat. breathing. I forgot about, you know, some people call it was it like four. >> box breathing. >> Box breathing. Same thing. You know, I.

forgot about a paper bag. I just I turn. this white as your shirt and an. undercover knocks on the door. He's he. was the guy that was playing the truck. driver and it just he sees me and I'm. just pouring sweat out of every pore. white as your shirt. My lips are all. tight and he's like, "Are you okay?" And. I'm like, I don't think so. So, we start. talking. What I should have done is. said, I don't feel good. I think I'm. heading home. But I didn't. I took a. nap. I got up, self-medicated, went back. out with the outlaws. Mongols were. there. Fights breaking out. All kinds of.

stuff. And uh but when I flew home from. that trip, I didn't know it, but my body. was already done. They wanted to expand. the case because the guy that was now. went by the road named Hillbilly who I. knew through the case and he liked me. and I liked him. Um, he was the. Southeast regional president at that. point and they and they wanted me to. come down to they wanted that Boston not. to take the case down and for me to move. to Florida and patch under Hillbilly. >> Dude, I don't care if you're meeting.

damn Sam Elliott from Mask. Bro, you. guys love that role, >> dude. I love. >> I've always loved him as a biker better. than anything else. It was a good role, but damn, man, to keep pushing yourself. out there like that. >> Yeah. Well, I wasn't smart. And And I. mean, I lied. >> And I'm not judging you, man. >> No, I'm just saying I I lied to. safeguard. Like, I took the. psychological test and I lied. I knew I. was exhausted. I knew I didn't know how. to relax anymore. >> Even because it's almost like I'm. reading the story and it's like, you. know, it's like, oh man, it's it's just. that's harrowing. >> It's harrowing. And it reminds me of. times that I think a lot of us and.

probably a lot of listeners can relate. to when they just, you know, just this. thing I got to keep going. >> Yeah. And at what cost? >> Doesn't matter what you you could be a. doctor. You could be whatever. >> Oh yes, for sure. That's what I'm. saying. >> You can put Yeah, you can you can you. can wear yourself out. So what happens. is I go home uh I sleep the first day I. probably slept 20 hours. >> Amen. >> I wasn't depressed. I wasn't sick. I. know what they both feel like. For the. rest of the week, uh I slept over 16. hours a day. So come Friday, a I I still.

love this guy. I don't think he loves me. anymore. It is what it is. Uh but we. were friends at that point and he calls. me and my again country he's like he. goes how you doing country? And that was. all he said and I said I'm not doing too. good. So for the next hour we talk on. the phone. I'm explaining to him. everything's going on and he basically. let me convince myself I need to call a. safeguard. So I called and I knew one of. the psychologists personally and I. called and I said hey uh I don't know. what's going on man. I'm 30 something.

years old. I'm I'm crashing. I don't. know what's happening. Um, so they came. out and did a on-site. In other words, I. didn't have to fly to them. They flew to. me. >> They did the test. I answered it. honestly. >> Amen. >> Um, and uh, I got put on timeout. But. what they did is they said, and by. timeout, I mean no more undercover for. at least 6 months. But what they did is. they said, "Hey, for the purp for this case specifically, we'll let you stay on the phone." So I.

make a ruse. I'd already told them that. I'd gotten married. So, I'd make up a. story that, hey, me and my wife are. getting divorced. Her family's in El. Paso. I got to re I got to get this. house finished. I got to relocate her. and the kids out there cuz I wouldn't be. able to look at myself in the mirror. again if I didn't. >> got it. >> And you got you got fathers. Scott. Town's a loving father, four daughter. You got And they're like, they all. they're like, "Oh, yeah. Oh, we got it, man." I said, "But as soon as I get them. there, I'm coming north. I'm sick of. this heat.". >> Amen. >> So, we just kept talking. And during. that there was one other guy that we. didn't get but he was calling me and he.

was like he just got out of prison. recently and he was an outlaw and he's. like hey man I heard about you know we'd. met before Scott Town introduced us but. he's like I got a Hummer I got this. $100,000 BMW I need to get rid of and he. starts talking about cocaine and he's. like hey um you know what kind of. business I'm in? I said I can maybe take. a guess and he goes I'm into that magic. powder. And I said the white. He said. yeah. I said oh cocaine. >> Yeah. And I and he said yeah. And he. says, "How much can you get me uh. basically a kilo for?" And I said, "Oh.".

>> He and I he said, "If you can get me a. kilo at 18 a piece, I got enough to buy. 10 right now." He had 180 grand ready to. go. >> And um of course I called the case team. and I go, "Do you guys want me to pursue. this?" And they said, >> "This is your friend though, right?". >> Well, this guy I met, he wasn't like. Scott Town introduced me to him. His. name was His name was Tim Sylvia. Not. UFC Tim Sylvia, but. >> yeah, >> but who is a friend uh but Tim Sylvia. the Outlaw. >> And uh so what happens is is I broker.

the deal for my truck driver and another. undercover who always just he didn't. always but half of the case he would sit. in the passenger seat. Um and. [clears throat]. they go like I'm literally in my garage. in Macallen and I'm on the phone with. Tim Sylvia and I'm on the phone with. him. I'm going he's over here and I'm. I'm guiding them in to meet each other. Well, [snorts] when they meet each. other, you can hear the other. undercovers talking. Even if you see the. recording from the back of the. semi-truck, you can even hear me on the phone. They're calling uh the the truck driver.

calls me. He's like, "Text." I go, "What's going on, man?" Uh we're calling. him Tony. Hey, Tony, man. He's like, "Yeah." He goes, "Uh, I'm here." And he. goes, "I'm with He goes, "What's your. name again?" Tim Sill. He goes, "This is. Big Timmy." I go, "Okay." And he says, "Uh, they're going back and forth." He. goes, "Hey, he wants to talk to you." So. Tim gets on the phone and I say, "Hey, um, you got the same vehicles?" "Yeah, I'd agreed to pay him 21 grand uh for. the vehicles that I was buying from him, stolen." Um, and he says, "Uh" I said, "When are you going to report the BMW.

stolen?" Cuz it had a tracker on it. He. said, "Friday." I said, "Can you make it. Saturday?" I'm just trying to make it. real, right? I said, "Can you make it. Saturday? Going to be one more day and. it'll be in Mexico for sure." And he. said, "Absolutely." So then I get back. on the phone with the undercover. And. the undercover says, "How much am I. supposed to pay him?" I said, "21. grand." So when they go to load the. vehicles uh on the stolen vehicles onto. the truck, Tim hits them and says, "Can. you guys get 10 kilos at 18 a piece?". And they said yes. And that's how we. ended the case. I was drawing up. diagrams of all the club houses and.

houses I'd been in for all the SWAT. teams that were going to be hitting it. and stuff, which was nerve-wracking to. me because I'm a tactical guy and I'm. like, "What if I get this wrong and. somebody gets hurt?" And then. um also. Scott and myself uh with another guy had. were creating our own motorcycle club. called the Righteous Few. It had already. been approved by the president, the. national president of the Outlaws to be. the number one support club for the. Outlaws in the Northeast. Um all I had. to do was go back up one more time and. I'd have got my cut. But you know, it is.

what it is. Um. >> yeah, you were also you were not. >> I was done. Yeah, I was done. >> You weren't even being real. It would. have been cool. >> Yeah, you know, ego wise. >> Oh yeah, for sure. But yeah, damn, bro. This whole thing's insane. >> So, we're taking down a case. I'm. actually at an undercover school. teaching. Um, I wasn't there. I'm pretty. sure safeguard said I couldn't go. >> And this one, you're just doing stuff on. the phone still. Okay. Yeah. And how do. we get to the end? >> This is it. >> Okay. >> Because they said they were going to. deliver the 10 kilos. That's going to be. a reversal and that's going to be the. first arrest, right? So when they show.

up, when Tim Sylvia shows up to deliver. the Hummer and to get whatever, SWAT. team's gonna take him down, right? He's. got the money and all this stuff. SWAT. team's gonna take him down. And that. starts all the arrest happening. >> Um, so I can't tell you what time it was. in Nevada where I was at versus what. time it was, I don't know if that's 3. hours behind or whatever, um, from. Massachusetts, but I go back to my room. and these are long nights at the UC. school like I told you. I go back to my.

room and my phone's chirping and I. listen and it's a message from Scott. Town and I chirp him up and I go, "Hey, what's up?" And he says, he's all raspy. voice. He goes, "Hey, I just want you to. know somebody just called me. Your truck. drivers, Tony and that other dude and. Big Scotty, Big T, uh, Big Timmy, they. got locked up." And I'm like, "Uh, okay." And he goes, "I just wanted to. let you know." And I said, "Well, you. know, they're not up there for something. for me." I said, "But sometimes they do. things on the side for themselves." He.

said, "Listen, I'm going to go to But. something effective like this." He said, "Listen, I'm going to go to I'm going to. get up. I'm going to get showered up and. I'm going to find out what's going on. I'm going to call you back." And I said, "Okay." And our last words to each. other. He said, "I love you, brother.". And I said, "I love you, too." And about. 40 minutes later, a SWAT team hit his. house and he went to prison. They all. plead guilty. >> You ever talk to him again? It's very possible. I can either confirm. or deny. Okay.

>> But since uh since since the New York. Times bestseller and being on. a podcast or two Yeah. Uh. the bond was real. >> The bond was real. >> Was real. >> Like how happy is the ending? Like I'm. just wonder like. >> it's pretty good so far. Is it? >> Yeah. Pretty good. Yeah. really good. >> So, you guys still communicate often? >> Mhm. Yeah.

>> Like in what type of manner you feel. like? >> Call me whatever. I will tell you that. Chocolate Scott started troubling me and. he'll probably get a kick out of this. >> He did? >> Yeah. He started all of a sudden. You. know how somebody finds you on Instagram. and they start liking all your stuff and. it's like from six months prior, but you. start getting all these dings ding ding. ding like they liked your real liked. your Well, it was like this guy sucks. Screw you. >> Oh, chocolate. [laughter]. >> Chocolate Scott like that, dude. >> So, so he. >> Chocolate Scots be Chuck Scott.

>> So, I. >> I almost wish I knew him actually. >> I know. So, here's the thing. I He's. like He's like hitting me with like, "Yeah, you suck. You f this." You know, this that and the other. And I saw it. and it was like I could kind of see the. picture, but I saw that it was Doom 666. And I'm like, "Who the hell is it?" I. don't respond to negative stuff, but I'm. like cuz most of the time you're arguing. with an algorithm anyway. It's some AI. you're arguing against. It's not even a. real person. Yeah. Some pervert. >> But I click on it and I open it up and. it's chocolate Scott and it and for his.

Instagram it says, "F you Scott. Paying. you big bitch.". >> Damn. [laughter]. So he really But he's got a right to be. pissed. >> I know. I know, man. But I could I. giggled because I could totally see him. high laughing typing that stuff, you. know. Uh but the last thing he put out. there that uh that before I blocked him. uh is he put he actually validated me. because a lot of people are like, "Oh, you're making this up." I'm like, "Dude, pull pull the court records. Pull the. reports. It's in there. The recordings. that happened. I I don't know what you. mean to tell you. I'm not making it up. It's there.".

>> But he put he put he would go he found. another one. He goes, "I've seen this. guy naked in the basement. Not much. there." Right. >> So, I so wanted to respond cuz the first. thing I was going to say is, "You're. still pinching me naked in the basement. from 2006?". >> Yeah. >> Must have been tough in prison. Second. thing I would have said is I don't find. you or clothesline attractive. >> The third thing I would have said is it. was very very cold in that basement. [laughter].

>> Yay. And it's it's in Massachusetts. >> Yeah. And the fourth thing I would have. said is I thought I was getting ready to. die. And that's a whole new level of. shrinkage. The last thing I was. concerned about is what I look like. naked. So. >> Oh, I can't even stay erect around damn. broken glass. [laughter]. >> You know, I [snorts] hear a window. shatter. Dude, I won't get hard for a. month. [laughter] That's just who I am. My dad was the same way. >> Yeah. >> Um, did towns go to jail? >> Yeah. Yeah, we we pretty much we pretty. much dismantled the whole uh taunting. chapter. I don't know if it's back up,

but yeah, we pretty much got everybody. >> Have you seen him since he went in? >> Mm-m. >> Nope. >> No. >> How long will he be in for? >> He's out. >> Oh, he's out now. >> Yeah, he's out. >> She haven't seen him since he got out. either. >> Okay, got it. >> No. >> How long has he been out for? >> I don't know. I I don't know if he did. six or eight. And let's just say I think. we arrested I think we took that case. down in 2008. >> Got it. >> But uh. let's see if it says. >> the Outlaws MC Taunt chapter is no. longer active having been effectively. dismantled following a major federal. sweep. >> Woohoo.

>> There you go. Um did you have to miss a. lot of things? Uh yeah, >> like a lot of family stuff. >> Yeah. >> You missed a lot of like birthdays. things like that. I I did pretty good. with that, but I missed like some. recital and stuff like that. Yeah. Or. Father's Day, you know, because it it. might be putting on the undercover. school or it might be being on the on. the case because like I said, you kind. of go where the case takes you. Um if. you get an opening to go to Sturgis with. the I mean, yeah, that's. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean it's all it's. just so it's so fascinating, you know,

because life itself you're kind of. >> we're all trying to be ourselves and and. then to go into life and then go into. another life kind of, you know, like an. other exist, you know, like. >> Yeah. My my big uh my big uh I guess my. my Clark Kent walking into a phone booth. and coming out of Superman is I I I have. a cross on my necklace. And before I. would go into cover, I'd take the cross. off and it'd either be it would either. be a Norse, you know, like Thor's. hammer, but for most of it, it was just.

a skull. But that was kind of my thing. Like I'd go back in, I'd take the skull. off, put the cross back on. It was kind. of like me saying trying trying to leave. it there and now I'm Scott again. But. truthfully, the the the job creeped in. all the time. I mean, how's it not going. to when I'm on a undercover call and my. daughter's chasing me through the house. and I'm trying not to let her hear me. cuss cuz I'm on the phone with a bad. guy, you know? >> Sure. >> Um are are you ever before you go, Scott, are you ever uh worried about.

somebody coming back from the past? Something coming back to haunt us? >> It could happen. Yeah. Um. >> retaliation. >> Yeah. You know, I'm not trying to be a. tough guy or nothing like that, but I do. have a belief system and and for me, um. I mean, I wouldn't want any family. members or anything like that to be in. fear usually. For me, your best defense. is a good offense. That's me. Like. [snorts] just being a uniform cop, how. many people in your town do you think. you arrest in a year? And do you I mean,

they're not all like felony char they. back out. >> That's a good point. So you how many. times as a uniform cop do you go to the. mall or to a movie theater or to the. grocery store and you run into people. that you like? It might have been. somebody you had to fight. >> Amen. >> You know, so. >> I never thought about that. >> And I just I just walk right up to them. That's me. I see them and I'd go if. they're if they're eyeballing I'm not. even going to let them plot. I'm just. going to grow up and go, >> "Good game.". >> Hey, no. I'm going to be like, "Brother, how how are you doing? When did you get. out?". >> Oh, damn. >> How's the family, man? Hey, are you. clean right now? Are you good? How you. doing? Listen, as long as you're on that. up in, you know, the straight and narrow.

on the right path, I'll help you. And I. have I've actually people that I put in. jail that I infiltrated put in jail. But. but they've taken a turn for the better. I at their sentencing, I wrote an. acknowledgement letter or a letter for. their character. >> Amen. >> So they and they got probation instead. of going to jail. So it's not a I mean. >> no. >> it's you know it's if you get for me for. the most part what I found because I do. really make friendships. I mean you're. creating relationships but you're you're.

betraying them a little bit. I mean. you're going to be betraying them if. you're [clears throat] undercover. >> Um but. it's almost like the old Bugs Bunny. cartoon. You got the sheep dog and you. got the coyote and they it's Ralph and. Sam and they clock in in the morning and. all day the coyote's trying to steal a. sheep and all day the sh the sheep dog's. beating the crap out of them trying to. get and at the end of the day they clock. out. See you in the morning Sam. See you. in the morning Ralph. It's just you know. I I been told I've been told this if you. were a biker and and you were part of.

the club and you snitch they'd never. forgive me but I was just doing my job. M. >> So you you see that a lot. Professional. snitch. I'm not snitched. I'm not I'm. you know I'm I'm a bonded law. enforcement officer and. we had reports of you doing criminal. stuff and I infiltrated you and or. somebody did and we found evidence of. that criminal stuff. If you're not doing. anything wrong, don't worry about it. >> Yeah. Um do do they ever Oh, just this. is kind of like a question almost like. the movies. Do they ever bring retired.

agents in for like you know they ever. try and get you back out there for one. more show? Oh yeah. Yeah. But you would. be if you're a retired agent. >> cuz you're retired now. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you could come back. in as a source. That's a That's a whole. different ballgame, though. >> But they're never like, "Scott, we got. to wheel you out one more time here.". You know? >> Not now. [laughter]. I'm overt now, man. You know what I. mean? >> Oh, yeah. People know. >> Yeah, I know. Anybody ever told you you. look like Matt Damon? You know what? As. a matter of fact, the other day somebody. did. And as soon as they pulled up the. picture, I went, "Dang." You know?

>> Yeah. >> Who would have thought it? Uh, no. I. mean, no. I mean, it it could happen, but once I was done, I mean, obviously. I mean, you do Rolling Stone magazine. and then this and Yeah. >> Would you do it again? >> Absolutely. Absolutely, man. But, you. know, okay, they always say, man, you'll. know when it's time to retire. I thought. I was going to work the 57. I thought. I'd be the undercover coordinator for. the state of Tennessee and maybe I could. extend, you know, because uh that's a. skill set that is that that a lot of. people don't have, you know, um in the.

bureau as as opposed to being a tactical. instructor. I mean, there's a lot of. tactical instructors, but uh I thought I. was going to stay to 57, but after the. base case, I was like, man, I had to get. the back lumbar. I got a lumbar fusion. A week and a half after lumbar fusion, I. got Tammy talking about PVC pipes and. everything else in my truck. >> God. >> And you just start thinking, >> she loves to torture people. >> Yeah, I know. I like torture. You like. torture? I like torture. I love it. [laughter]. >> You need somebody torture, you call me. I swear I know I torture myself. But uh.

the thing is is I was 48 going on to 50. How many more? >> Oh, how many more B like I can't go I. mean if Okay, now I'm gonna look like a. pedophile. Oh, there's an old dude. buying beer for young boys and and he's. teaching them widespread. No, I'm not. But how can I infiltrate 17 year olds, >> right? >> You know, and you just start realizing. just one day it hit me and it was right. after the base case. It was in February. We took it down January of 2020. >> February of 2020. I'm in Phoenix,

Arizona. We're putting on training. We're training online covered employees. for domestic terrorism. >> And I don't know what we were discussing. about. I don't know what it was. I know. it was my birthday. Um, but I just this. overwhelming feeling hit me in the face. like a brick. I can't remember what we. were talking about, but I remember like. everything just kind of going calming. down and me saying this in my head. I'm. satisfied with my career. >> Yeah. >> Never said it before. >> Not saying I've done everything, but if. I do something now, I'm just starting.

right back over. I'm like, I [snorts]. think, holy cow, >> I'm okay. >> I think I'm okay. >> Amen. >> Yeah. >> Well, Scott Payne, man. Boom. Big. country. >> Thank you so much for coming in, man. >> Pain, >> Code name Pale Horse. That's his book. Um, >> how I Went Undercover to Expose. America's Nazis. Uh, >> I was going to say, and the paperback's. out now. Sorry. >> Oh, nice. And the paperback is out now. Is that true, Scott? >> Yes, true. >> Thank you so much for uh for being here.

today with us, man. Thanks for sharing. your stories. Uh, yeah, dude. What a. fascinating um existence you've had so. far, man. We appreciate your time, brother. Thank you so much. Give our. best to your family, man. And uh. >> we'll do. >> Yeah. Scott Payne, thank you, bro. >> Thank you, man. >> And I feel I'm falling like these. leaves. I must be corner stone. [music]. Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll. share this piece of mind I found. I can.

feel it in my bones, but it's going to take.