Sen. Bernie Sanders | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #635

Today's guest is a senator from the. state of Vermont. Uh before that, he was. a congressman. Uh he was a mayor. Uh. he's a mitten meme actually. Uh I'm. thankful for his return to the show. Today's guest is Senator Bernie Sanders. Shine. on me. and I will find a song. I've been. singing. [Applause].

>> You know this is an historic hotel. >> Oh yeah. >> Leonard Cohen used to spend time in. here. >> Yeah. My mom used to play uh Leonard. Cohen for us when we were kids. She. liked him and so she would play his uh. When the Walls Came Down. Remember that? >> Yeah. And you ever hear his hallelujah? >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Sure. >> There's a uh here in New York City there. is a uh Yeah. It's called the Youth.

Choir of New York City. Does that ring. any bells? >> It's kids. >> Pull them up. The Youth Choir of New. York City. Is that it? >> Yeah. It's beautiful. And uh among other. things, they do a beautiful, beautiful. rendition of uh Con's Hallelujah, which. I love very much. >> Yeah. I haven't been to see them. I. would like to go check them out, though. Do they perform pretty often? >> Mhm. What's beauty beautiful about it, these are kids from the city, often. workingass kids. The guy does a.

fantastic job and the quality is really. wonderful. And we're trying to do. something in There it is. God, you can't. say a word here. It's up in there. It. is. Those are the kids. and beautiful. and uh. wonderful. >> Oh yeah. Yeah, that's nice. No, I. haven't I haven't gone to see what did I. go I went to see a Knicks game. They. haven't won a championship in 53 years. >> All right. >> I didn't even realize that. >> Well, I'm done. That'll change. >> Yeah, there we go. Huh. That's Hey, we'll start maybe getting some more. foreign players.

>> Hey, they got some good guys at the Euro. Step, you know, changed a lot of things. Um I saw that you were out there on the. uh on the nurses picket line, the New. York nurses. >> Yep. >> Yeah. That's awesome. We went the other. day, too. We had a great time. >> Oh, wow. That's a nice crowd. Jesus. >> That's when you were I was there. Was. that. >> Oh, that's me today. There I am. That's. you. >> Who's that handsome guy in the brown. coat? Oh, that's me. All right. >> Who's that kid with him? Oh, that's the. mayor. >> Oh, yeah. That's Zoron, huh? >> Yeah. >> Um, yeah, there we were. We went out. there the other day. We had a good time. We stayed for a few hours, walked.

around, shook some bells, you know. >> Great. >> Got out there. My sister's. >> I love nurses. They uh is. >> My sister's a nurse. >> Where is she? A nurse? >> She's a nurse down in Louisiana. Good. But I figured that if you know things. start here in New York, a lot of big. things start here. >> I feel Let me just say something. I. really appreciate the work you do and. other podcasters do. >> This is one of the technological. revolutions that is really good. You. know, sometimes I go on TV and I'm asked. to deal with an issue in 7 seconds. I. can't deal with it. You can't deal with. it. Right. Yeah. >> Takes a little bit of time. So, thank. you for what you're doing.

>> Ah, well, I appreciate that. Um, yeah, we're trying to learn as we go, too. And. it changes a lot, you know. But, um, were you at Mount Si? Which one did you. go. >> outside? Yeah. >> Yeah, that's where we went. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I tell you uh I was. really proud to go there and and be. alongside uh Mayor Zan Mani. You know, I'm the former chairman of the. health education labor committee and uh. I'll tell you Theo, I have met with. nurses all over this country. I love. nurses. Uh it's no great secret that our.

health care system is broken. Everybody. knows that. And the people who are. keeping it going are in fact the nurses. uh you know they're with you when babies. are born. They're with you when you die. They're with you in between. They're at. your bedside. They're the backbone of. the health care system. And I love them. And I'll tell you something time and. time again. Nurses would come into my. office and they'd start talking and. suddenly they'd start crying. And you. know what they were crying about? They. were crying about the fact that they. were unable to do the jobs to do the.

work that they were trained and wanted. to do. that they didn't have the the. number of nurses they need, the staffing. ratios that they needed. They broke. down. Uh and I was just a couple years. ago, not dissimilar for what's going on. in New York City right now in New. Brunswick, New Jersey. These nurses went. on strike. You know why they went on. strike? Because they needed help. Yeah. >> To provide better patient care. It. wasn't even about money, >> right? They're just saying, "Hey, we. can't I can't even be a nurse. This is. my calling in the world, and I'm I can't. even do it to a decent potential." You.

know, and it's tough enough. We talked. last night, we talked last time about um. patients being stressed to the gills, not only dealing with their with their. physical ailments, but having to deal. with the stress of um of begging for. insurance companies to support just all. of that. And now you're going to put the. nurses under the same stress. >> Exactly. It's pathetic. And and I'm sure. you know this, the CEOs there Yeah. >> of these big huge hospital. One guy is. making 26 million a year. Another guy I. think is making 16 million. Another guy.

making five. They're bringing in all. these traveling nurses, spending. hundreds of millions of dollars rather. than sitting down and negotiating a. decent contract with these dedicated. nurses. There they are. You got them up. there, huh? >> Yep. And I'm grateful. I want to just. mention these wonderful CEOs by name. today. Just so because look, it's a it's. time where we put a name with people who. are making certain choices. And so we. have Brendan Carr. Uh that's I know he's. over at Mount Si. Brian Donnelly, there. he is. Look at that big smile. I'd be. smiling too if I just made $15 million. this year. That's Philip Ozua.

who looks like a Guess Who character and. Steven Corwin from Monopoly. I don't. know that's alleged. Uh these are the. CEOs current and I think one is just. leaving the the one of his posts. Um who. are who these are the these are who. nurses are asking for help from. Right. >> Is that right? And just to be clear. Bernie what are the nurses asking for? >> What they're asking for what they call. safe patient nurse patient ratios. That. means if you're a nurse on duty and you.

have too many patients to take care of, you can't do your job. >> Yeah. >> A nur a patient calls out, needs your. help, you can't get there. So, they want. more staffing to be able to provide the. quality uh care that patients deserve. >> And I know in addition to that, I think. they were they wanted health care. benefits not to be cut, >> right, for themselves, right? >> Which is if you think that nurses. nurses. >> pretty crazy, huh? can't get healthare. They can't be sure that they're going to.

have health care. They're working with. the sick. We can't say, "Hey, we're going to do. our best to make sure you don't get. sick.". >> That's pretty crazy. And the other thing. they're worried about, and I hope we can. discuss this a little bit, is AI and. robotics. They've raised that issue as. well. >> Have they really? >> Yeah. And there was a Dr. Oz, who's head. of CMS in Washington right now, was. talking the other day, uh, let me get it. straight. I think it was Alabama, rural. Alabama, where they're weak on the. number of uh obstitricians that they.

have. And he was proudly talking about. how they have robots now who are. providing examinations for pregnant. women. >> Yeah. >> And who's controlling those robots? It's. not some pervert at his house. Huh. >> Well, but the point is, if you're a. patient, do you really want a robot. examining you? >> Right. So I mean I think all of this. Theo adds up to the fact and I tell you. I've been all over the country and. wherever I go I talk about this whether. you're conservative, you're moderate, you're progressive, you understand the. healthare system is broken today.

>> Yeah. >> We are spending this is insane. Do you. know how much we spend per capita add. everything else right? Medicaid, Medicare, what you pay out of your own. pocket. How much do we spend per person. on healthcare in the United States of. America? Do you know? Take a wild and. crazy guess. per year? >> No, per person. Oh, >> per person. >> Okay. >> $15,000 per person. Okay. >> So, a family of four spends. theoretically $60,000. >> Oh, wow. >> That is double what any other country on.

earth is spending. You got it? >> Yeah. >> You would think that if we are spending, you know, if I buy a $100,000 car, you. buy a $50,000 car, my car should be a. little bit better than your car, right? And yet, despite all of those. expenditures, our system is worse than. others. We're the only major country not. to guarantee healthcare to all people. >> But it's because there's these kind of. like darker agreements between um. hospitals and insurance companies, right? And the cost of drugs. >> Yeah. It has to do essentially. Look, in.

this day and age, running a health care. system is very difficult. Technology. changes. It ain't easy. I admit that. But what what is the goal of a rational. health care system? It is to say first. of all to answer the fundamental. question is healthcare a human right? What do you think. should everybody regardless of income. get healthcare? >> I believe that based on how much money. our country has I think it's wrong not. to provide that to people because we.

wasted in so many other ways. >> Okay, good point. So the issue here is. why is the wealthiest nation on earth, United States of America, the only major. country not to guarantee healthcare to. all people. Okay, that to me is a. fundamental issue. So today, despite. spending so much money, 85 million. Americans are uninsured or underinsured. And if Trump gets his way and throws. another 15 million people off of. Medicaid, raise that number to roughly.

100 million. Okay, there are estimates. out there that when you have that many. people uninsured, no insurance, and. underinsured means high deductibles, right? >> So, if you got a high deductible, you. may be insured. I've talked to people I. I suspect you have. They had deductibles. 10 $15,000 a year, right? >> Mhm. >> So, if you don't have any money, what. the hell? How do you go to the doctor? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, you add all that together, people. get sick, they can't go to the doctor. Some 50 60,000 people die a year in.

America unnecessarily because they don't. get to a doctor on time. That is pretty. insane. So in my view, I push very hard. to introduce the legislation what we. call Medicare for all expanding Medicare. to cover every man, woman, and child. without out-of- pocket expenses. We. could do that without spending, to your. point, not a nickel more than we're. currently spending. >> Yeah. How can we get that move forward, though? Why is this Why does this just. continue to be this thing, you know? Why. does it continue to feel like. like nobody really wants to take care of.

us, you know? >> Ah, now you're getting into another. issue. >> Yeah. >> All right. You want to go there? >> I mean, yeah. I think we can go to a. couple of these places. >> All right. Let's do it. All right. Look, in in one respect, the health care. system is working extremely well. Not. for ordinary people, not for you, not. for me. It is working very well for the. insurance companies who make zillions of. dollars in profit, the drug companies. who charge us the highest prices in the. world for prescription drugs. And that's.

the function of the current healthare. system, >> right? >> Okay. So again, you know, running a. health care system, whether it's in. Canada, Europe, wherever it is, it ain't. easy and they all make mistakes. They. all have problems. But if your goal is. if you and I sit down and say, okay, how. do we provide a healthcare to all people. and how do we do it in a costeffective. way? All right. Will we come up with a. perfect system? No. But that's our goal, >> right? >> But if we sit here and say, "Okay, how. can we charge the highest prices in the. world for prescription drugs and make $.

38 billion next year?". >> Yeah. >> How can we deny people the insurance. that they paid for, right? The benefits. that they pay for. That's a whole other. scam. And that's the scam we're working. on. Yeah. >> It is an effort to make huge profits for. the drug companies and the insurance. companies. And that's why we've got to. end this broken system. Again, I will. tell you, I've been all over this. country. Nobody or very few people think. this healthcare system is working. We. got to expand Medicare over a 4-year. period to cover every man, woman, and. child.

>> But is there a real way to get there, do. you think? >> Look, it's. the goal is, and then that takes us to. an another area. You know, you ask the. question why why are we, you know, perhaps the only country on earth not to. guarantee healthcare to all people? Why? The Canadian, you in Canada right now, I. live 50 miles away from the border. there. You get seriously ill, you're in. the hospital for a month. You know what. the bill is when you come out? >> Zero. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And they spend half as much per. person on health out. >> And they have good posture, too. You've.

been over there? >> Yeah, sure. Of course been. >> Um, so the answer has a lot to do with. who controls the United States and our. corrupt campaign finance system. All. right. So, if I'm the insurance. companies and if I'm the drug companies. and you're running around and you're. campaigning and say, "I'm going to cut, as I do, we're going to cut prescription. drug cost in half. We're going to. guarantee healthcare to all people.". What are you going to do? You're going. to spend a whole lot of money on. candidates to defeat me, right?

>> Mhm. >> So, you got a corrupt campaign finance. system in which billionaires in both. political parties, by the way, I think. Republicans now more than Democrats, but. both parties spend huge amounts of. money. Elon Musk, the richest guy on. earth, spent some $270 million to elect. Donald Trump president. So, you know, Musk has his own agenda. Uh, he wants. Trump president. Others billionaires. have their agenda. That's called a. corrupt system. All right. What. democracy in my view, and you can argue. with me if you want, is you and I,

you're running for office, you're. running, you want to run against me, good. What are your ideas? Take them to. the people. People like your ideas. better than me, you're going to win. All. right? It's not me going out raising. money, billions of millions of dollars. to defeat you, to lie about you, to put. ugly 30 secondond ads on the air. Right. Right. >> Okay. It's what democracy is, a real. debate on the issues. >> Yeah. >> All right. Disagree with me. So what? It's called democracy. Right. >> Okay. >> But increasingly what politics in. America is about are super PACs. You.

know, where if you're a billionaire, you. can put that's what Musk does, hundreds. of millions of dollars. And again, it's. not just Musk. Democratic billionaires. do the same. >> Oh yeah. There's the Koch brothers over. the years. There's the Ads who there's. um there's all these different huge bit. just big pockets that are influencing. things. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> A multi-billion. So when these guys. control the political process, you're not going to have a government. that works for ordinary people and it's. not just health care. It's it's many. other issues. So to my mind, by the way,

when we talk about bringing about the. necessary changes, this country needs a. campaign finance reform and doing away. with Citizens United, that terrible. Supreme Court decision, top of the list. >> Citizens United, bring that decision up. >> Citizens United was the Supreme Court. decision that said you have, you're a. billionaire. Okay, you got it. >> You have the freedom of speech, first. amendment, to say anything you want. about Bernie Sanders. If you want to put. ads on the air, you can spend zillions. of dollars freedom of speech. And that's.

what Citizens United said. And uh. obviously that undermines democracy. because it allows billionaires the right. to buy elections. >> And can we bring this back to a vote? Like will u Mike Johnson bring this back. to a vote? >> No, he likes Citizens United because it. works very well for those guys. And I. got to tell you, some Democrats like it. too. But I think the American people, you go out and you talk to again people. all across the political spectrum, they. understand you're not a democracy when. billionaires buy elections. Yeah. Well,

here's the thing. It doesn't even feel. like either one of these parties works. for anybody anymore. Like if if. anything, in the past few years, it's. really started to feel like, oh, all. these guys are working for somebody. else, and we're just this other group of. people down here. because you you have. like there are politicians online that. are like yelling at voters for support. about stuff. It's like we voted for you. like you're yell upwards, you know, like. it just I don't know. It just Yeah, it. feels like a total dead end now. It just.

feels like um it feels like most people. just want to be elected now so they can. uh make a profit somehow themselves. It. almost feels like a a business venture. if you want to be frame it in that way. I would, you know, frame it. feels like. that as a regular person or sorry that's. how it seems a lot of times. >> Okay. Okay. It's I would say it's kind. of cool to be a congressman or a. senator, right? >> Oh, that's super cool. >> Get your name in the paper. You get on. nice shows like this one and all that. stuff. >> Uh and you have a certain amount of. power. >> Yeah. >> I mean that's real.

>> Uh and you associate with the rich and. the famous and that's cool I guess. >> Uh but you know that speaks to where we. are as a nation today. And here's I. think maybe the major point that I want. to make. you're living in the richest. country in the history of the world. Theoretically, at least, that should. mean that all of our people have a. decent standard of living, right? We. should not have people a few blocks from. here sleeping out on the street. We. should not have people unable to afford. healthcare, kids unable to afford to go. to college,

uh people literally unable to feed their. families. And yet in America today, and. I know this is really an astounding. fact, 60% of our people, Theo, are living. paycheck to paycheck. Now, I grew up in. a family, I don't know your background, but I grew up in a family that live. paycheck to paycheck. >> Oh, yeah. I knew exactly how much money. we had, but no, I knew what we had left. at the end of each week, and it was in. mom's wallet, you know. Yeah. >> All right. And so, the simple question. that we have to ask ourselves is how do.

we feel? And, you know, again, you can. disagree with me. You're living in a. society today where we have more income. and wealth inequality than we've ever. had in the history of this country. All. right? >> You got the top 1% doing phenomenally. well owning more wealth than the bottom. 93%. You got one man, Mr. Musk, one man. owning more wealth than the bottom 52%. of American households. What do you. think? >> Well, I think it's tough if I think.

there's two ways to look at it. Well, I. think I think it in a bigger scope for. me, you have yes, you have these. billionaires. You have these guys that. have all of this wealth. It does feel. unfair. They used to say, "Well, just. because one person has more money. doesn't mean that other people have less. money." But I don't just visually, it. doesn't even start to seem like that's. the truth, right? Optically for me, it. doesn't seem like that's the truth. Do I. think there should be a cap on how much. money people could have? I do think that. there should be. To me, in my heart, it. doesn't feel like people need so much. money and so much control.

>> That's the point. I think most people. think and I believe look you go out and. you're doing it and you start a business. you're making money right. congratulations we appreciate that you. make money great. >> do you really need hundreds of billions. of dollars. >> no. >> really. >> no. >> right at that point you know these guys. whether it's Zuckerberg or whether it's. Bezos you know they own their islands. and their jet planes and their. spaceships and all this crap. >> bunkers. >> right exactly all anyhow so I don't. begrudge people come up with a great.

idea. Work hard, make money. God bless. you. You know, but you don't need. billions and billions of dollars when. people are struggling to put food on the. table or afford healthcare. So, that's. one of the issues that concerns me right. now when I talk about fighting. oligarchy. You know, I was on a tour. >> Oh, yeah. I know you had a tour with. AOC. You guys are uh how many cities did. you go to? >> We have been now I was in New Jersey. last night. It's the 24th state that. I've been in. I think we've done 35. events. Well over 300,000 people have. come out. And you know I and I got to.

tell you I've been to conservative. areas. People of this country are not. happy about a situation in which so few. people I mean really a handful of people. have such enormous. political and economic power. >> Yeah. >> Okay. That's not what America is. supposed to be about. Yeah. You got rich. and you got poor. Fine. But not so few. having so much power over the economy. and power over our political systems. Well, here's what I would think. So, but. I wonder if t I don't know if like we.

always say let's tax these people, right? That's what that's a term a lot. of people use. We need to tax them more. Um, and maybe so, right? But I sometimes. with billionaires, I at least look at. billionaires as like people that are. create or more often than not creating. jobs, creating environments where other. people have the ability to make money. like you have like a Larry Ellison. Um. you have u a lot of people that are. Amazon workers, people that work at. Oracle, people that work in data. Um you. have Elon Musk, you have a lot of people.

that work for Tesla, um or you know that. might work for his his Uber type company. if he gets it going. Um but at least. those people are creating jobs, a lot of. them. Now, do they still deserve to have. that much wealth or hold that much. wealth? I don't think so. Um but but. then you also have there's this argument. like well let's get them to pay taxes. but then you have things that happen. like in Minnesota like with the uh the. the Somalian fraud, right? Like you have. this young man who's been going around. Nick Shirley who's like kind of going.

doortodoor like trick-or-treating about. fraud kind of right and figuring it out. Um that almost is like it's like why get. people to pay taxes? Who even cares. about paying tax anymore if we're just. going to let them slip out of the. bottom? But the answer is fraud is. disgusting and especially. to steal money from hungry kids. If you. have a program to feed hungry kids, >> you steal that money. That is probably. as bad as it gets. >> And I think way back in the early 20s. under Biden, they started an. investigation. Those people should be.

severely punished. I don't care if. you're Somali, if you're green, you're. blue, whatever you are. >> Right. I'm using the term Somali fraud. because that's kind of the term people. are using. >> But anyhow, that should be punished. That's disgusting behavior. >> But, you know, understand and I'm sure. you do. It's fraud is not just in a a. child nutrition program in Minnesota. I. you know deal with this a little bit. We. are spending a trillion dollars a year. on the military. Okay. There is not one. major defense contractor that has not. been charged with uh fraud frauding.

being you know providing fraud to the. United States government. Uh their CEOs. make huge amounts of compensation. They. cannot even undergo an independent. audit. They're the only government. agencies. So they don't even know what. they own. I mean, it is so massive. >> But nobody, nobody, nobody, Republican, Democrat, independent, nobody doubts. that there's massive fraud. There's. fraud all over the place, unfortunately, in this country. And we got to do our. best to eliminate that. But at the end.

of the day, I mean, we got to. revitalize, in my view, we got to. revitalize our democracy. We got to hold. elected officials accountable. We got to. run coste effective efficient uh. government. >> But having been in government a long. time, do you think that those things are. actually possible or at a certain point. are you like start to do you lose hope. because as a regular person it feels. like we are our our political system. works against us and it works for big.

business interests and that's not even. up for debate anymore. It feels like. you're lucky to find a couple people who. seem semihuman, that work in politics, who have some semblance of a connection, at least they um will talk about things. that they feel like they really want to. do or will show by some of their. actions, but otherwise it feels really. it feels pretty hopeless. Does it feel. like that to you more and more? >> Uh yes and no. Um. again, what I will give you some. examples and you know this is my own.

political point of view. You agree with. me, you don't. It's okay. Uh, right here. in New York City, we're sitting in New. York right now. Uh, a year ago, there. was a guy named Zaran Mandani who nobody. had ever heard of. He's an assemblyman. in New York. Nobody heard of him. He. decided he wanted to run for mayor. He. got he was at 1% in the polls. He was. taking on the Democratic establishment. So, who the hell do you think he was? You are taking on the Republican. establishment. Taking on the oligarchs of the city, people front page New York Times. We're.

gonna spend tens of millions of dollars. to defeat this guy. >> Yeah. >> You know what he did? >> Not only I mean he's a brilliant guy. himself and a very good politician, but. he had. 90,000 plus people in this city knocking. on doors for him. So you ask me, am I. optimistic? Can we bring about change? I. would say New York City is a pretty good. example of what happens when people. come. And he said, you know what? I'm. going to make this city work for working. people, not just the billionaire class.

>> Amen. >> And he's just been, you know, in office. for three or four weeks. I think he's. doing great. >> Uh. but you you ask him about my optimism. when I see 90,000 people going out on. the streets volunteering for this guy. and he's implementing. He was out, you. know, we talked about being on the. nurses picket line today. He was there. with me standing with the nurses. So. yeah, and I I've seen this other great. members, you know, the media doesn't do. a great job, but you got dozens of young. men and women in the House of.

Representatives, strong workingclass. candidate uh members of Congress. So. yeah, I am in that sense optimistic. On. the other hand, you know, Donald Trump. worries me uh very very much. You. remember, it's funny story here. He was. inaugurated just about a year ago and I. was there. I got for whatever reason I. got pushed into the front row. >> I was I fell out of my chair. My I was. in a chair that broke. >> Yeah. >> Well, my chair didn't break, but I was.

almost as close to Trump is as I am to. you now. And you remember who was behind. Trump at his inauguration? >> Oh, yeah. Um who who was up there? You. had Zuckerberg, you had Elon, you had Bezos. >> You got it. >> Um. >> you had a dozen other billionaires. Okay. So you ask me where I get. pessimistic. is, you know, and literally this is not. just saying this, it's true. Uh I was. thinking, you remember Abraham Lincoln.

in Gettysburg, but he said Lincoln went. to Gettysburg, the scene of this. horrible battle during the Civil War, >> tens of thousands of soldiers killed. And a few days later, Lincoln goes to. the battlefield and he jotss down some. notes. And basically I'm paraphrasing. what he says is you know these soldiers. who are fighting against slavery did not. die in vain. They died so that we will. have and continue a government of the. people by the people and for the people.

>> Amen. >> And then I'm looking at what Trump and. his inauguration and I'm seeing these. billionaires then I'm thinking this is a. government of the billionaires by the. billionaires for the. >> for the billionaires. And and that's. kind of how it's supposed I'm not. surprised that I I just I'm not. surprised that this is kind of where. we've ended up, you know. I don't know. if this happened overnight. Like it. doesn't feel like this happened. overnight with Trump. It feels like this. has happened more and more over time. Um. at least Trump, it feels like to me this. is messed up, but at least he brings his. billionaires up there and shows them.

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facilitate your transactions, not a. source of financial advice. Trade. responsibly. But I love your energy about like that. Like yeah, like how do we stay hopeful, right? How do we stay hopeful when it. seems like it feels almost impossible to. how do you vote somebody in that would. be able to stay in the tide of it all? Theo, this is where we got to take a. deep breath and accept our very serious. responsibilities as citizens. >> Okay? >> And you think back, and I don't want to.

romanticize this, but you think back on. American history, and you know, we read all about this. when we were in the third grade, you. know, those were pretty brave guys, George Washington and Jefferson and all. those guys taking on the British Empire. You know, no one in the million years. thought you could defeat the British. Empire. >> For sure. >> And they did. And a lot of thousands. died. >> Thousands of them died. It was a pretty. bloody situation. And then you think about the Civil War. where very brave people said, "You know. what? Slavery is a moral abomination.

We're not going to accept it anymore. God knows what that civil war was. about." Hundreds of thousands of people. on both sides died. You know, and then. you think about and I think about this, you know, December, was it December 7th, 1941, the United States was attacked at. Pearl Harbor? >> We were totally unprepared. Do you know. that we were totally unprepared? We had. to fight a war against Japan, a war. against Hitler in Europe, right? >> Mhm. >> Totally unprepared. And yet the country. came together, you know, instead of.

building cars, they built tanks and. planes. Literally, in two or three. years, we had put the Nazis on the. defensive. The war was won. So what I'm. saying is this is perhaps the most. difficult moment in my view. >> in modern American history and it's. because Trump is an authoritarian who. happens not to believe in democracy and. I think he's corrupt and it's tough but. we have won great battles in the past. and I believe if we do not allow our.

people to become divided up we will win. this as well and not only defeat. Trumpism which I work very hard to do. but also create the kind of nation that. we can become. Health care is a human. right. You know what if you have some. kids children they have a right to get. all the education they need. We are not. some poor third world country. >> Right. >> Right. All right. So we have got to have. a vision of where we want to go as a. nation. Uh and I think if we fight for.

that vision, if we bring people. together, we can succeed. When you speak. with guys like uh like mom Donnie, did. you give did you have any suggestions. for him? Did you give him any advice? >> Well, actually he followed my political. career pretty closely. >> Uh he studied what I did as mayor of. Burlington back in the 80s, the campaign. that I ran. Uh yeah, so we we chat every. now and then. Uh I am extraordinarily. impressed by his energy, his. intelligence. He has a really good.

persona. He's out there with the people. and uh I I think he's going to do a. really great job for the city of New. York. >> Do you feel like the like the Democratic. party kind of takes him seriously as. like a future candidate for like. elections or for presidential elections. or. >> uh now you are raising a sensitive issue. >> or is it a sensitive issue? >> Sensitive issue. Sure. >> But yeah, is it do they or do they look. at him as like a oneoff like an. outsider? >> No. Look, what's what does it mean to be. the establishment? the establishment. means in a corrupt political system. If.

you're the establishment, what you do is. you leave this, you get on the phone and. you talk to your billionaire friends and. say, "Look, I'm setting up a super PAC. >> I want your help to, you know, win the. congressional race in Arizona and. California. Put in I want you to put in. $30 million each. Okay? I'll have $300. million. 10 of you put $300 million. I. get the ads going next week. We're in. business." Right? >> That's crazy. Yeah. >> That's the way the system works. All. right? And every now and then you have. somebody like Mandani who comes along. and says, "I don't want your money." Not. only do I not want your money, we're.

going to take you bastards on. >> Okay? Do they want them? No. So the. Democratic Party right now is kind of. split. Uh I am an independent. Okay. To. be honest with you, I'm the longest. serving independent. I caucus with the. Democrats, but I'm an independent. Proud. of it. >> Uh but they get really independent, too, when it's time to put you on the ballot, too. I noticed. So, >> right. >> That's fair. uh you know so I work with people like. Alexandria Kaziocortez and Primo Jihol. and Ro Connor and a bunch of other. people and we are trying to move the.

Democratic party to be a party that. stands with workingclass Americans and. has the courage to take on powerful. special interest. Now there's another. faction of the Democratic party that you. know doesn't like Trump for I think a. lot of right reasons. I agree with him. But basically cuddles up to the moneyed. interests and that's the the vision that. we have. Mandani is part of the movement. that I've helped try to build uh. Alexandria as well and others many many. others. So that's the kind of the split.

that we're seeing within the Democratic. party. >> Got it. Do you feel like you've been in. politics for a long time and you you're. growing in to be an adult now um in your. in your years uh. >> by an adult? I my grandchildren will. tell you I'm not, but I don't know. But I just mean um do you feel like at. some point like it's time to start a new. party like more than ever? Like do you. feel that you know because all I mean. you have guys like like you talk about. guys like Roan, people are inspired by. him like you know like I got to sit down. with him. I like a lot of things he has.

to say. He's a good guy. >> An internet bill of rights. I feel like. he has like you know he's a he's a. forward thinker. Um. >> smart guy. >> Yeah. And so I feel like if you got a. band of people it's not that hard to. find the people that people love. >> Good. All right. I thought about it. >> Yeah. Like for about 400 years. All. right. >> That's how that's all you thought about. it? Yeah. >> All right. But all right. Here is this. is the reality that I have to deal with. every day. Uh in my view, the Republican party, which used to be a conservative party, a.

small government type party, has become. under Trump kind of a right-wing. extremist party. Okay? There are some. exceptions to be sure, but that's kind. of where it is. Democratic party as I've. mentioned to you uh their establishment. more or less wants to protect the status. quo and then there are those of us who. want to bring about fundamental changes. in the economic and political life of. the country. So that's where you are. now. Starting a third party is something.

when I was mayor of the city of. Burlington in a sense we did. Okay. I. took on I defeated a Democratic mayor. >> Yeah. And um so we had the Republicans, we had the Democrats, and we. >> That must have felt awesome, was it? >> Yeah. It felt pretty good. A guy had. been mayor for 10 years and nobody. thought we could win. We won by 10. votes. >> Oh yeah. >> And by the way, I say that to people. If. you think it's hard, you could do it. I. We did it. All right. That was a long. time ago. Uh and we started kind of. unofficially. We called it um uh in.

independent party of sorts. Uh. so it can be done and there are strong. independents today. >> running for office who have a chance to. win. But you ask about starting a party. within today's political climate. It is. very hard. All right. For example, all. right you want to start a party in many. states you're going to have to get. enormous numbers of signatures in every. county in the state uh to get even get. on the ballot. >> because the two-party system does not.

want you on the ballot. >> Of course. >> Okay. And you know, you likely don't. have a lot of money to do all that. stuff. So, it ain't easy. But there are. people who are thinking about it. Right. now, where my energy is is to transform. the Democratic Party. You know, when. many years ago under Franklin Delan. Roosevelt, under Harry Truman, the. Democratic Party was considered to be. the party of the American working class. Unfortunately, that has changed over the. years. I want once again to have a. Democratic party which has the guts to.

stand up to the billionaire class and. create an economy that works for. everybody and not just the very rich. You know, we hear a lot about um the you. know, we've interviewed some of these. tech CEOs and and billionaires really um. and they talk about this kind of a. universal basic income, right? But it. sort of feels like it's led by the tech. industry. And if that gets created, that's not the same thing as one that's. led, it feels like, by the government. Does that make sense to you? Yes, it. does. >> Because one that's subsidized by the.

government is more like um it doesn't. feel as controlled. Uh well, I guess it. does. It just feels like controlled by. two different groups. >> But but again, what I want to see and I. suspect you want to see is you want to. see, let's not use the word the. government is not Tesla Corporation. The government theoretically in a. democratic society is you. >> All right? And to some degree, you know, you don't like people, you can get rid. of them, right? Um, and our job is to. create a more democratic with a small D,

not a big D here, a small D where. government is responsive to the people. Um, but I want to say a word on this the. issue that you just raised. Uh I have over the last 6 months become. very very concerned about AI and. robotics. Uh and there are a lot of reasons why. Uh number one, the easiest I think most. apparent reason is what these data. centers I don't know you're following. these data centers. >> Oh yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. What are the.

side effects? They're taking over like. they're absorbing water in a lot of. communities. I know they just built one. in Louisiana near like Bask in. Louisiana. Um, yeah. And they're not. even going to end up keeping that many. jobs for people once they're open. >> There will be a decent number of. construction jobs, >> right? But after that, it's not going to. be many, >> right? To run the place like almost. nobody. >> Security guards basically. >> Exactly. Exactly. Um, and the result of. that is it drains, as you've just said, uh, scarce in some cases water resources. and it raises electric bills. Okay, so.

that's number one. Number two, to me, even the big issue, let me quote, I wrote this down here, >> okay? >> Elon Musk, our good friend, right? Musk. Now, when you understand to understand. AI and robotics, understand that the very a handful of. the very richest people on earth are. investing hundreds of billions of. dollars. Okay, that's Mr. Musk, Mr. Bezos, Mr. Ellison, Mr. Gates, uh, and.

others. Okay, these are the richest guys. on earth. Now, why are they doing it? You think they're doing it to stay up. nights and they're staying up nights. worrying about working people? You think. they're investing hundreds of billions. of dollars to say, "How do we make this. world a better place for working people? Between you and me, I don't think so. These guys have huge money." But getting. back to the point you made earlier, you. know, it's not enough that they're worth. hundreds of billions of dollars. even.

want more and more wealth and more and. more power. Okay. So, let's talk about. what are the implications of AI and. robotics. Okay. >> Well, they're going to take away jobs, so then people won't have purpose. >> You got it. All right. Good. You hit the. nail on the head. Let's start off in. that one. And now the answer is nobody. knows exactly. All right. No one can. predict what happens tomorrow, next. year, 5 years. This is what Elon Musk, leader of this whole effort, says, quote, I'm quoting Mr. Musk. quote, "AI. and robots will replace all jobs.

Working will be optional." End of quote. Then he later said, "Yeah, you want to. do a garden in the backyard for a hobby, that's great, but you don't need to do. that." Bill Gates, worth a few hundred. billion, heavily invested in this. Microsoft, humans, quote, won't be needed for most. things. End of quote. uh Dario uh Amodai, head of Anthropic, quote, "Half of all entry- levelvel jobs. will disappear.". And there are other estimates out there. that we're talking about over a period.

of years. Nobody knows exactly when tens. of millions of jobs in the next decade. disappearing. So, you tell me what. happens when tens of millions of jobs. that people now make an income from. disappear. What happens to those people? Well, I think there's some of the some. of what I've heard is that some of these. same companies would then offer some. share. It's kind of it's a vague. terminology a lot of times of a. universal basic income token or. something.

>> Really? No kidding. I agree. >> And how much you getting? >> I have no idea. >> Who's going to determine that? >> I have no idea, dude. >> It sounds like you get like 111th of a. Rubik's cube every every two weeks or. something. But also, I think if if you. could get to a place where it was like. that and people did feel a sense of some. sense of purpose or peace or part of. something again, it could be good. There's a chance it could be something. beautiful. >> All right, there's a chance. >> All right, good point. I agree with you.

>> But my questions would be, do we just. end up working for these companies that. that are paying us this UBI? Uh what's. the psychological effects of it? Right? like what's the long-term effects of it? And um and then do we still have a sense. of indiv individuality. uh if we don't have exactly anything to. do, you know, or do we just turn into. those kids from Wall-E? Can you bring. that kid up? Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Like a young. Burke Chryser kind of there.

>> All right. But then what we need to do. is to take a deep breath cuz this thing. is moving really fast. I don't know. Have you seen some of these robots on. the internet? >> Oh, yeah. Unfortunately, I shouldn't. some sites I shouldn't have been on, Bernie, be honest with you. But yes. >> All right. Uh I mean, they are moving. very very rapidly. >> Yeah, a couple. Yeah, the ones from. Atlanta are for sure. I'll tell you. that. >> And um you know, in Amazon, I think half. of the workers have I'm not sure about. this. I think half already have been. replaced. >> Well, yeah, especially if you start. thinking that Whimo cars are going to.

pick you up. It's just like what are. people there's going to be a really. tough Does anybody have a plan for the. first two years of this thing? >> You got it. You got it. Okay. you you're. hitting the nail on the head here. The. point is this thing is moving at. revolutionary speed and in I can tell. you absolutely and positively as a. member of the United States Senate that. Congress is in no way prepared to deal. with this. You know, the United States. got attacked tomorrow by some enemy. You. know, we got a large military due.

ain't nobody been thinking about how to. respond to this. extraordinary monumental change that's. hitting the America. I have proposed and I get criticized by. this for this every day uh a moratorium. on data centers. Why am I doing that? Well, number one, I want to protect. people's communities. That's number one. Electric rails, water, and all that. But. also, I got to say got to take a deep. breath. Your point, what the hell is. happening? >> Yeah. >> Are we prepared if tens of millions of. people lose their jobs in the next. decade? All right. What happens? Who's.

how do they stay alive? So, the. economics is one thing, but I want to. take it a step further. And this is now. you're in the crazy world. Okay, this is. science fiction. >> Except it ain't science fiction. >> Yeah, we're here. >> That's right. We're here. Okay. So, you. understand this AI now. You know, you. know what you know based on what you've. read, what you've seen, your life. experience, right? >> Me the same. Everybody, every human. being the same. These AIs have absorbed.

all knowledge. Every book that's been. written, every mathematical formula, every physics proposition, they got it. That's what they got. And what worries not just me and this is. do you remember what was it 2001 the. movie? Do you ever see that movie? >> Oh yeah. Space Odyssey. >> Yeah. Space Odyssey. >> Yeah. >> All right. >> And you remember and this is done many. years ago. Hal is the computer that runs. the spaceship. >> And one day the guy says, "Hal, I'd like.

you to do this." And the house says, "Well, sorry. I'm not going to do it." A. rebellion. Okay. Everyone, oh, we. really, you know, big joke. Funny. I had a public meeting in Georgetown a. few months ago with a guy named Jeffrey. Hinton. Really nice guy. >> Yeah. He's the uh godfather of AI, right? >> Right. He's the guy. He's been studying. the issue. >> alleged. Yeah. >> You know, he's been studying the issue. for decades. Came up, you know, he got a. Nobel Prize in physics. Okay. It's a big. deal. >> There he is. Right there. I've heard a. couple of his speeches. >> Yeah. And this is what he says. He says.

there is no question in his mind that at. some point sooner than later AI will be. smarter than human beings. And it is not science fiction. to worry about whether or not AI is. going to communicate with each other in. a language that people don't know that. ain't going to be English. >> And that they may see the human race as. an impediment to their progress. Okay, >> you with me? Mhm. >> All right. That's that's the doomsday.

scenario. >> So that the computer's like, "God, these. people are slowing us down.". >> You got it. Okay. Now, again, you know, some people I mean, I think nobody. thinks that that is crazy anymore. Some. people say, "Well, you know, it's kind. of unlikely. Maybe 5:1, maybe 10:1, but. it is incredibly risky and they don't. have the safeguards to protect us." All. right. Now let me give you something. that I am seeing today and you're seeing. and that is we are living in a country. with a lot of emotional distress. Okay, for a variety of reasons a lot of young.

people are turning to AI for emotional. companionship. Okay, I broke up with my. girlfriend. >> Yeah, that's ridiculous. >> Okay, and uh you know what do I do? Or. you know my mom is safe. D. So, we're seeing people. not relating to other human beings, >> but relating to AI. What is the long-term implications of. that? I mentioned earlier that robots. are now treating patients.

Um, Musk talks about creating millions. of robots in the next few years through. Tesla. >> Oh, it's Orwellian at some point. It's. this very thing where it's like, do we. would we even here's my question. Would. we even notice the day when we switch. over from thinking that we have control. and we are making choices from our for. ourselves to the day where we are just. following along what the computer says. Do you do you think we would notice? >> Maybe not because they would create the. environment. It's you know. >> dang Bernie.

>> it's pretty crazy stuff. >> It's crazy. >> And then you got even things like. warfare. Okay, you know, right now to. some degree at least, certainly not in. the Ukraine, but or in Gaza, but to some. degree, political leaders are. constrained about going to war because. they don't want to be telling their the. parents of their young men and women who. died in war, right? >> Well, every week there seems like a new. place that we're trying to attack or. bully or. >> listen, we'll get to that one in a. minute, but generally, what happens?

What happens now if I'm president of the. United States? I don't have to send your. kids off the war, >> right? >> I send robots off the war. What does. that mean in terms of farm? Am I going. to go invading every country on the. earth? I don't have to tell any parent. that their kid was lost. Right. >> Yeah. You could sit up at night in your. in your White House or whatever and just. use a remote control. >> You got it. And no loss of life. >> Right. >> All right. So, what does this mean? >> Not here. Not for us anyway. >> Right. Right. Exactly. So, what does. this mean about international. instability? It's incredible. >> Well, there's going to be not much.

communication anymore if someone doesn't. know if a drone just showed up in the. middle of the night and did a horrible. things to their country. >> You got it. All right. So, all that I'm. saying and I I think this stuff is. moving very very quickly. It is being. pushed by the wealthiest people in the. world who in my view could care less. about ordinary people who want more. wealth and more power. Now, they deny. all that stuff. That's my view. I think. we got to slow it down and ask the. question that you asked. All right. If.

AI can and it can do some good medical. diagnosis, do some good blood testing. It's is that a good thing? It is a good. thing. If you're working in a crap job. in a factory, right? You know, and AI. can increase worker productivity. So, you could work 20 hours a week rather. than 40 hours a week. Is that a good. thing? I think it is, etc., etc. >> Right? If the company then shares some. of the profits of that the company's. making with the war with the workers. >> So, that's the issue. It's a very simple.

proposition. Who is AI and robotics going to work. for? Does it work to improve human life. >> or does it work to make the billionaires. even richer? That's the question that. we've got to focus on. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's definitely getting it's. definitely uh. Yeah. >> And I would urge you on the show, keep. talking about it. Bring knowledgeable. people on. You know, I have my views. Other people have different views. But. I'll tell you this is. this is monumental stuff that we are.

unprepared for. We need to discuss it a. lot. >> Well, it feels like I mean it feels like. we're not going to be I don't know. It. starts to feel a little bit hopeless. that we're not going to have things that. could change it down the line or it. starts to feel like with AI stuff that. we're getting there too late. But also. with AI, it starts to feel like remember. the internet. Remember Y2K? Like people. thought like it was going to be crazy or. everybody was going to start, you know, everything was going to disappear, that. a website name was going to be the. biggest thing and that never amounted. really to anything,

>> right? So the answer is we don't know. >> We don't know. >> I mean, that's fair enough. So I'm not, you know, I'm telling you what my fears. are, >> you know, 100%. And I think those are a. lot of people's fears, you know. Um, >> and you know what? They can put up an AI. figure that looks exactly like you. Yeah, >> that sounds exactly like you. That is. saying something you have never said. That's already been done to me. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And it could be done pretty. easily, which raises, you know, you. know, come election time, you're going. to see somebody, wow, why is they saying. that? Can't vote for that guy. Turns out.

to be a total fraud, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Do you feel like it's a time where we. just need to be in the streets more than. ever? Where people need to be revoling? Do you think it takes a revolution to. change? Like what's really going to. change? It doesn't seem like voting is. going to get us there. Now, I do like. the idea that you have a guy like Mam. Dani that inspires you and makes you. feel hope and you feel like it's. different and he's against an. establishment even if feel feels like. it's a local one, whatever that is, that. he feels like it's different, right? I. agree that is exciting. That is. exhilarating. But is that is a guy like.

that is like a Tom Sawyer like him, can. he go through all the rapids of the like. dirty Mississippi that is [ __ ]. politics and get us to somewhere new? >> Nobody is. He's not a savior. He's going. to be a good mayor. We need 100. mandates. We need what I call a. political revolution. And that is, you know, what the establishment does. the, you know, they're very greedy. people. They could care less about. ordinary people. They want more wealth. and power. But the ugliest thing that.

they do is through the media that they. own, etc., etc., is they tell people. that they are powerless and they have no. power. And the answer is when people are. organized and stand together, they do. have power. >> And that's what we're trying to do all. over this country. Bring people, not. allow Trump and his friends. I don't. care if you're black, you're white, you're gay, you're straight, who cares? You know, you're Muslim, you're Jewish, whatever you may be. Let's stand. together. Because again, I've been all. over this country. People understand.

that healthcare is a right. They want a. good education system. They don't think. there should be 1% owning more wealth. than the bottom 93%. that they're. concerned about climate change. They. don't want this country involved in. endless wars. Are there disagreements on. abortion and other issues? There are. But by and large, you'd be surprised. I. was in a few months ago. I went to Mingo. County, West Virginia. You know where. that is? >> Um I don't know where it is. I've spent. some time West Virginia though. I like. it. >> Yeah. I love West Virginia. It's a. beautiful state. It's a poor state. I.

went to the county. Trump won. Trump won West Virginia by over 70% of. the vote. Okay. I went to the county. where he did the best. >> Mhm. >> He got 74% of the vote. And I went to. that county precisely because he got. 74%. I want to hear what people were. thinking about. >> Yeah. >> Walk into a meeting. Wasn't the largest. rally we ever did. 4 500 people in the. middle of nowhere. This is nowhere.

>> Well, that was it. There's a picture of. it. A lot of people thought you were. probably giving away free Ben and. Jerry's out there. >> I'm giving Nope. And And uh there it is. There's a picture of the. >> Oh, that's nice. >> Yeah. A big gym there. And it turns out. this is Trump country. These are decent. people. They're worried about their. kids. A veteran up there worried about. the needs of veterans. You know, mom. worried about a baby. So, I'm not. saying, you know, Vermont's a liberal. state. West Virginia is a conservative. state. I'm not saying that there aren't. differences of opinion. There are.

>> Oh, yeah. But you'd be surprised. This. is the good news that as Americans, we. share a lot of common values. We know that so many people fought and. died for democracy. What does democracy. means? It means that just because I'm. the president, I don't have the right to. shut you up. I don't have the right to. politically prosecute you because you're. against me. >> Yeah. >> You disagree with me, fine. I'll argue. with you. You beat me in election, fine. I'm unhappy. That's the way life goes, right? >> All right. See, the American people.

don't want a few billion few people, billionaires controlling the economy. They don't want an authoritarian. society. They want an economy that works. for all. Those are the common threads I. think that we can build a political. movement around. >> Well, I don't think people care if. they're I think people less and less. even associate with a party anymore. I. think that's happened in the past two. years. That's that that to me feels like. it's happened more than ever. Um, it. feels like how do like like if you even. look at like the fraud case like in many. in Minneapolis and I know it's like we.

don't know all the information about it, but it's like the fact that a vigilante. journalist type of kid, you know, this. Nick Shirley kid has to go doortodoor. and that he's even bringing it that like. whether or not everything he's saying is. true or factual, I don't know. My. understanding on that issue and again I. haven't studied it the senator from. Vermont but I think there was massive. fraud in terms of child nutrition. Okay. that's absolutely right. I believe that. was investigated under.

Biden's attorney general in 20 uh 21. actually. I believe dozens of people. were uh uh arrested. So it is a real issue and it's ugly and. it's disgusting because again stealing. money from hungry children I don't know. that you could do worse than that. >> Yeah. It's like how do but if. >> but this child care thing I think is. largely exaggerated. I don't think. >> you know I think you know you could take. a a a camera and go someplace and the. childare center is closed or something.

Oh nobody's there. I I don't think that. childare is an issue. The nutrition. issue is real. >> Yeah I think yeah I agree. I think. there's well I agree that there's some. parts of it that it's like it's tough to. know and if you just see a clip it's. tough to know what the full reality is. Right. I agree. But the the thing to me, well, there's two things. One is that. we're getting to a place where vigilante. journalism where somebody hitting the. streets, knocking on doors, like you're. saying, whether it's to get somebody to. vote, to get somebody to um open their. ideas to a new thought, to make sure. that something that their tax dollars is.

going towards is going to like that is. becoming more important than ever. And I. think that's going to start happening. more than ever. But two, that it's like. um that why didn't our go why like it. feels it makes us feel as as regular. people like dude, we can't even trust. that our government's going to figure. this out for us that there's money just. falling out of the bottoms here. >> All right, look, the answer is yes. >> And then that makes people can not care. about either party. That's what I'm. saying. It's just. >> buts. >> Okay,

>> let's put this thing in context. >> Okay, >> the answer is what you're saying is. true. Period. Okay, now. >> and I'm not yelling at you about But I'm. okay. All right. But context. >> You got 340 million people in this. country. Guess what? A lot of them are. dishonest. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> There are politicians who are dishonest. There are business people dishonest. There are media people who are. dishonest. That is the reality, right? I. mentioned you before. We spend $8. trillion a year on the military. Every. single major defense contractor has been. involved uh in fraud. Uh that's what.

they do. The insurance companies every. day they're ripping off people. drug. companies lying every single day. You. got fossil fuel companies saying, "Oh, carbon emissions don't cause climate. change." Total absolute lie. You had the. tobacco companies, "Oh, you can smoke. nine packs a day. Ain't going to cause. you." So, look, fraud exists. We got to. fight it wherever we can in government, in the private sector. No argument. And. you're right. When people see it in. government, it discourages them. But you. got to put it in a broader context. You. have, for example, a social security.

system. 99 plus percent of the checks. that go out go out to people who need. them. Okay? You know, so all that I'm. saying is when you're dealing with. hundreds of millions of people, yeah, you can find an aberration. You can find. fraud. Put it in a context. Got it. Understood. Paramount Plus is the new. home of UFC, and the new era comes out. swinging with back-to-back blockbuster. events. For the first time in UFC. history, two numbered events will take. place on consecutive Saturdays. UFC 324.

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One thing that's really kind of changed. a lot of people's like young people's. opinions too um I think is Trump's. relationship and um our funding of. Israel especially during like the the. Gaza conflict right it made it put it. was like one of the first times in my. life where you got to see um you know. you saw children getting killed you saw. a lot of um and I know that there was. there's conflict between those Palestine. and Israel and those October 7th I know.

that I know the history of it um but it. it felt like Trump like just sort of. went with Netanyahu on whatever. was he wanted to do there. And it felt. also like as a regular American like we. were supposed to be the ones to go help. in some instance. Um I think a lot of. young people are kind of discouraged. about our relationship with Israel and. what does that mean like especially like. with Apac and influencing our elections. and stuff like that. >> Let me just say a word on that because. it's an issue I've been deeply involved. in. On October 7th, Hamas committed a a.

real atrocity. I mean, they went in, they invaded Israel, they killed what. was it 1,200 men, women, and children, a. lot of kids, uh committed sexual abuse, etc. Disgusting. They are a terrorist. organization. Israel had a right to. respond. like any government, you know, that's. attacked. But Israel did not have the. right to go to war against the entire. Palestinian people. There are 2.2. million people in Gaza. That's not a lot.

of people, right? There are 9 million. people in New York City or 8 and a half. million people. That's all there are. Two and a poor people. Over the last. several years, Israel has killed over. 70,000, mostly women, children, and the elderly. It has injured, I think, 160,000. or even more than that. So, over 10% of. the population has been killed or. wounded. Okay. again, often. children, the elderly. Israel stopped.

humanitarian aid coming in so that. children were starving to death in. violation of all international law. And. the United States under Biden and under. Trump continued to fund a guy who I. considered to be a war criminal. >> Okay. War is disgusting business. >> Well, the ICC voted him war, didn't. they? Didn't the ICC say he was a war. criminal? They did. Except for America. >> Yeah. So look, war is a disgusting. business, but out of World War II, you. remember the Geneva Conventions, what.

they said is, "Look, war is disgusting, but you don't starve children in a war. You want to kill an an enemy, you kill. an enemy. It's this, you know, horrible. business. We want to eliminate war, but. there are rules of war, engagement. Starving children is under any. definition a har." And that's what. happened. Bombing all of the entire. people don't realize this. not only. killing people, virtually every medical. facility has been bombed, schools have. been bombed, water systems, waste water,

the place has been laid desolate. Those. are war crimes. And I did my best and. and with some success. I managed to turn. around. It started the war started. Almost everybody was say, "Oh, you know, Israel, we're going to support Israel.". Netanyahu. That has changed. And your. point is very important that a lot of. the impetus for those changes in. Congress came from young people and not. just you know people on the left. You. got conservative Republican kids who are. saying you know what not a great idea to. fund Netanyahu.

>> Yeah. How much control do you feel like. like what is that relationship with. Israel like? Because I think it seems. that because of some of the atrocities. >> Yes. >> Um it makes a lot of Americans question. why we fund Israel. Why do we give money. to Israel? answer is getting back to a. corrupt campaign finance system. Uh if. you check the record and again it's not. just APEC, it is the crypto industry, it. is the insurance companies, it is the. drug companies, but Apac is a.

significant funer of I would imagine. hundreds of members of Congress. So as. it's customary, you're there, we can. send you a check for 10,000 bucks. If. you're a leader, we may make it over a. period of years, hundreds of thousands. of dollars. you're in the club, you're. going to be pro- Israel. But having said. that, we're seeing for all the reasons. that you have suggested, we're seeing. more and more people saying, "Apec, thank you. I don't want your money. actually because the people in my. district are not happy with going what. Netanyahu is doing." So, I think we're.

turning that around a little bit. But to. my mind, I have long advocated not. another bloody nickel to go to the. Netanyahu government. But it's not just. Netanyahu. Switch gear a little bit. In. that part of the world, you got Saudi. Arabia. All right. You know who runs. Saudi Arabia? You got a guy named. Muhammad bin Salman. >> Okay. >> You remember Muhammad? >> Mhm. >> According to American intelligence, Muhammad killed. >> right here. >> Yeah. They call him Pizza Hut at Head.

>> There's a guy named Jamal Kushagi. That. mean anything to you? You remember him? >> He was a reporter that got killed. >> He was a There he is. >> That was under his rule, right? >> That's right. So what the intelligence. agency said that the leader of Saudi. Arabia, Mr. Muhammad bin Salman, uh. murdered uh this guy Kashagi went into. an embassy someplace, was it Turkey or. somewhere? I don't know where he was. Walked into an embassy, came back, carved up and put into a suitcase. Okay. Dismembered. Um he murdered him. And yet when bin.

Salman came to the United States, do you. remember a few months ago, White House. rolled out the red carpet? >> We are the Marines there welcoming him. Why was that? >> Why does a guy who the American. intelligence says is a murder, a guy, by. the way, who runs the country, you try. to protest his rule, >> can't even do it, huh? >> Good luck to you. I mean, thousands of. people are in jail. They execute people. There's no disscent. Well, even when. like when Netanyahu came and he pulled.

his chair out for him, remember that? That's the kind of thing to people to. like regular people. It's like, what are. we doing? It feels like our intelligence. agency does not work for us. >> All right. Wh It's not a question of. intelligence. They did work. Why is it. that Musk is investing huge amounts of. money in Saudi Arabia? Why is it that. Trump loves this guy? Why is it that. Saudi Arabia is now allowing the Trump. family to build I don't know what it's. resorts, golf courses, whatever the hell. they do there? Okay, why is that? And. the answer is and this will upset some.

people. It is my view that is the kind. of government that Trump likes. It is an. authoritarian government. They don't. tolerate descent. It is run by the that. family happens to be the wealthiest. family in the world. >> Uh Ben. >> Ben Salman. >> Ben Salman. >> Yeah. They are I think combined not you. know they're probably richer than Musk. >> and those and meanwhile we are attacking. Europe every day. You know we're going. to invade Greenland because Trump didn't. get a prize or something. I mean that's. pretty crazy. >> That is really crazy. >> I mean for a second it is it's so crazy.

sometimes you got to laugh at it. You. have to laugh at it. It's like we've had. police officers on and they say. sometimes you know there'll be murders. inside. There'll be victims people have. been shot murder horrible things and. you'll see us in the front yard laughing. and it's like because sometimes you have. to you have to step outside of the. absurdity and laugh for a second. >> All right. And all that I'm saying and. this ties a whole longer discussion but. it used to be that the United States was. a strong advocate of democracy.

>> We became a model for countries all over. the world saying we would like to be. like the United States. Our. constitution, our bill of rights, declaration of independence was an. inspiration to a lot of people. And now. you got the president of the United. States having his best friend, a. dictator in Saudi Arabia supporting a. war criminal in Israel, Mr. Netanyahu. etc etc and by the way going to war if. you like I hopefully not literally. figuratively at least with Europe. Why. is that? Europe is a democratic.

democratic governments. Some are. conservative, some are progressive but. they are elected by the people. Trump. does not like democracy. So that worries. me very very much. >> All right, maybe one or two more. questions if we could. >> Okay, great. That sounds good. Um. recently with the ICE raids that have. happened in Minnesota and they're. happening everywhere, right? I mean it's. it's become a big thing. Um and for me a. lot of it is in response to you know. there was a such a border policy that. was keeping allowing a lot of extra. people here right extra people that were. not meeting up with their um. >> like their probation officer not.

probation officers but their like. attendance officers at times that sort. of situation right so it resulted it. seems like in this situation we had to. hire a lot extra ICE agents um some of. them even unqualified anyway it's left. us in a unique place in America right. now but also just another place where. people in the streets are having to. figure things out, right? >> And we are the all the ones fighting. about it online. >> Let me briefly tell you my view. People. agree with me or not agree with me. I. agree with you that our border security. was weak. Okay? There is no excuse. All.

right? My dad came from Poland. You. know, other people's parents came from. all over the world. All right? You come. through it. Um there are reasons why. people have. kind of try to slip into the United. States. 99% of the times it's poverty. It's uh violence, drug violence in. wherever it is, Mexico, Guatemala or. whatever. All right. But other but. that's illegal and it should be. prohibited. We need borders, strong. borders. We need an immigration process. in my view. Okay. That's number one.

>> Number two, we have between 10 and 14. million undocumented people in this. country right now. No one knows exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> All right. But the vast majority of. those people. work hard and obey American law right. now. Uh during CO, by the way, those were the people who. are working in the meat packing plants. Those are the people who got a lot of. the virus. Those are the people who. died. They kept the economy going in. many respects. All right. In my view, and I think what most Americans agree.

with, if you have lived in this, even if. you came across the border illegally, but if you have obeyed the rules of. America, you haven't committed crimes, you're working hard, you're raising your. family, you need a path towards. citizenship as part of comprehensive. immigration reform. And by the way, given the fact that we have worker. shortages all over this country, we need. those workers. Okay. So, that's I think. what we need, >> especially skilled labor, we need right. now. >> That's right. That's right. And a lot of. these people are doing important work.

keeping the economy going. What Trump has done is in this big. beautiful bill of his greatly expanded. funding for ICE. And in my view, what he is doing is not. just trying to get and by the way, it. used to be we're trying to get the. criminals out of America. Remember that? >> Yeah. >> You know, rapists and the murderers and. we're well beyond that. Now you're. knocking on doors of American citizens. You're arresting America. arresting. people who have never had. >> Oh, now that it's they're finding. anybody that makes good tap us.

>> You got it. That's right. That's exactly. right. Okay. And I think this is what. frightens me. What Trump is using ICE. for now is a domestic military operation. and it's part of this intimidation. And. if you stand up and and that woman in. Minnesota, good is her name. Um. >> yeah, Renee Good. >> Renee Good. All right. I saw that video. You know, you don't shoot somebody in. the head who is in that car. And I think. it's Trump saying, "I have the power and.

we got domestic army. It's called ICE. And we're going to go out there and. we're going to arrest and we're going to. intimidate." And part of that, this is. what Trumpism is about. It's. intimidation. All right? You're in the. media, your CBS, you say something, I'm. going to sue you. You know, uh, Theo, you say something I don't like, I may. sue you. you know, in in I don't like. Venezuela. I'm gonna, you know, send in. the troops. I got the power and I'm. going to use it. I I really that scares. me because that's what authoritarianism. is about. So, do we should we deal with.

immigration through comprehensive. reform? Absolutely. I think that's what. the American people want. Do we want. guys with masks around their face. dragging people out of their apartments, out of their cars? I I you know, I I. don't think so. I don't think that's. what the American people want. Yeah. More and more resentment to that. >> And we're in a tough spot, too, cuz we. see things more now, right? We see all. of it. We see it. So, before you would. just hear about her, you would knew it. was a plan, but you didn't have the. visual effect of it. And how the visual.

effect makes you feel. >> Cell phones have revolutionized politics. in that. Everybody got a cell phone can. take a. >> And I think there's that's one of the. side effect like I agree like Trump has. an authoritarian energy, right? He. there's this, you know, and there's. there's positive parts about that and. there's negative parts about that. >> No, I don't agree that there's anything. positive about authoritarianism. >> Well, maybe authoritarianism, I think. somebody that's like somebody that hears. >> decisiveness, yes, that's what I mean. >> Decisiveness, yes. Making bold. decisions. Yes.

>> Yes. >> Authoritarianism. Disregarding the. Constitution and the rule of law. I'm. sorry. No. >> I agree. I agree with that. That and. that's what I meant. Um, one last. question before you go, Mr. Sanders. And. Nick, will you bring up those CEOs one. more time? I just want to see the faces. of those good gentlemen who have made 15. million allegedly, I believe, and 26. million allegedly as well. >> Not allegedly. I think that's a fact. >> Oh, there you go, Bernie. I'll take. that. Um, while nurses nurses are trying. to make sure that their healthcare. doesn't get uh discontinued at certain. points. Um, and uh and just real quick,

uh people can get involved by donating. to the NYSNA hardship fund. And uh we'll. put the link to that and where you can. show up to support the strike. It's. going on every day right now. There's a. one other big concern that people have. is that there is with the Epstein stuff. that there are people really protecting. pedophiles. Do you think that's as big. of a thing as people think or do you. think it's more of a political kickball. that gets kicked around a lot? >> Hard to say. We don't know. Uh.

all I can tell you is when Trump ran for. office, what did he say? Going to. release all underline all the files. Yeah. >> Okay. I think you should. And I think. the thing about the Epstein files is it. touches on everything we've talked about. it is there is a sense we're living in. two worlds. You go out, you know, you go. through a red light or you do something. stupid, get drunk and drive, you're. going to be arrested. Right. >> Right. >> But if you're a very very wealthy person. or you do some really disgusting things. with women and girls, well, you're rich. and you're powerful and you have.

friends, you don't have to pay the price. >> with children. And that's a that's the. fear is like you say we we can't even. protect our children. >> But and these guys get away with that's. the it's a two-tier system. You get. punished. You're average person. You're. a billionaire. You could do horrible. disgusting things. Hey, no problem. That's what it is. So my own view is. Trump said release all the files. Release all the files. >> We should release them. Did you But you. never knew any but it when like it was. but you don't hear anything super that. we don't know by being in uh by being in. your position. >> All you hear is speculation, you know.

That's and I don't want to engage in. that speculation. Just release all the. information and let people decide. >> Let people decide. All right. >> Yep. One more time, bring those CEOs up. I just want to see them. And uh and. Bernie Sanders, thank you so much. And. um yeah, I just appreciate your time. >> Well, it's my pleasure and thank you. very much for the work you're doing. >> We're trying, man. You know, it it's a. you know, I'm learning as I go. Look, Theo, the important point is you're. honestly, you know, you and I can agree. or not agree, but having serious.

discussion about serious issues is. exactly what the country needs right. now. >> Yeah. Well, thanks, man. Yeah, I do. care. I know that. >> I know you do. >> Now, I'm just floating on the breeze and. I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I. must be corner stone. [Music]. Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll. share this peace of mind I found. I can. feel it in my bones.

But it's going to take.