Roman Empire Expert Mike Duncan | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #589

Hey, I just wanted to ask you something. If you wouldn't mind, uh, if you want. to, would you want to subscribe to the. channel? You don't have to do it, but if. you're already here, I mean, get in, you. know, get in, twin. Uh, all right. Praise God, baby. Thanks. I've got some. tour dates to tell you about. We've got. Cedar Rapids. That's where we're headed. St. Paul, Minnesota. Fargo, North. Dakota. Rapid City, South Dakota. Philadelphia, Rochester, New York,

Detroit, Michigan. Uh, that's where. we're going with the Return of the Rat. Tour. It's almost over. You can get. tickets at theon.com/tour. And thank you so much for the support. Today's guest is a historian, an author, and a podcaster. He created the very. popular History of Rome podcast, which. spanned more than 175 episodes over 5. years. I'm really grateful for this walk. through history learning about the rise.

and fall of the Roman Empire with. today's guest, Mr. Mike Duncan. Shine. on me. and I will find a song I've been. singing. [Applause]. [Music]. Mike Duncan, I'm here. That's you. Yeah. Thank you. for having me. Thank you for joining me,

man. I appreciate it. You have a famous. series uh called The History of Rome. that is on YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. And and. available where all fine podcasts are. and found. Uh you can get it on Spotify, you can get it on Apple, you can get it. anywhere. How extensive is it? Uh it. took me 5 years to write and it is 189. episodes long and it will take you. through the complete history of the. empire, at least through the fall of the. west. Uh, it starts with Anias's arrival.

in Italy, which is sort of a precursor. to the founding of Rome, the legendary. founding of Rome, and then takes you. through a thousand years worth of. history all through to the end of the. 400s when the Western Empire collapses. It's one of the few things on YouTube. where I hear that people will go back. like at certain points in their lives. like or years later and be like, "Okay, I'm starting again." Yes. You know, there's there's a lot of relistenability. in the history of Rome. And I've. definitely heard that from people. They're, you know, I've listened to this. 10 15 times and I'm like I I listened to.

it like twice, you know, cuz I like. record an episode and then I listen to. the episode and then one time I kind of. went back through it to like remember. what I had written. Um, but yeah, people. people who get into it and like it, they. really love it and they go back to it. and, you know, it reminds them of the. time in their life when they listen to. it for the first time. So they're. they're it enters like this sort of like. emotional connection beyond just like. what they're learning about Roman. history. Well, yeah. I think that's. something that certainly happened. recently. There was like a lot of social. media. There was this buzz that happened. a few months ago. It was like women.

asking men how often they think about. the Roman Empire. Yeah. Yeah. And um. right when I saw that I was like, "Oh my. god, I think about the Roman Empire all. the time." Right. Where do you think the. Roman Empire connect? Why does Why was. that so popular that meme? I mean, when people would ask me that, they're like, "Do you think about the. Roman Empire every day?" I'm like, "Yeah, I've thought about the Roman. Empire every day for like 25 years. I'm. writing a book about the Roman Empire as. we speak. Like, I'll probably think. about Rome once a day for the rest of my.

life, but I'm I'm I'm on like a a very. extreme edge of all this." And I am a. sicko for Roman history. Like, other. people can be more casual about it, but. I'm I'm I'm a sicko for this stuff. You're like the Marilyn Manson of Rome. Yeah, I am. Uh I'm really really into. it. Um but I think you know Rome is. always going to have like a a hold on. our collective consciousness because. we're living in a post Roman society. uh. most of the you know cultures, nations, countries, whatever that we think of.

sort of in the west um have roots in. Roman history or at least have a phase. in their own history where this is like. the Roman period because the Romans you. know eventually expanded to control the. entire Mediterranean basin like all of. North Africa like all of you know what. we now consider the Middle East and then. they're up into like France and Britain. and this is this is a single unified. state that has never been repeated in. history Like you look at a map of you. know Europe in the Mediterranean today. you know it's 30 35 different countries.

and once upon a time this entire thing. was the Roman Empire and so their. culture their um modes of doing thing. their laws uh their language right I. mean French Italian these are all like. post Roman languages these are all. romance languages and so I think that. because there is this like point at. which they were just everything for like. I mean, not for a thou. They didn't run. the Mediterranean for a thousand years, but that they were just this thing that.

we all come from. I think it's going to. be very difficult to ever like purge the. Roman Empire from the collective. consciousness, and I really don't think. we should do that. Even hearing you say. that, I didn't realize that romance. comes from Rome. Yeah, it's Yeah, it's. it's all linked to it and word, right? I. I never thought about that. It was like. or does it come because it's funny, man? I don't Yeah. Yeah. I don't know about. the I I actually don't know about the. etmology of romance versus like the city. of Rome. The word romance originates. from the Latin word romanticus meaning.

of a Roman style or in the Roman style. because it's just so funny because we. all kind of romanticize it that it's. that present, right? That that it's that. present. We don't even notice when it's. in a term that we use to describe how we. feel about it. Yeah. It's it's. everywhere. It's in tons of invisible. ways. How long was the Roman rule like. just in years? just a blanket like. including like the republic, the Roman. Empire. So, okay, there there's many. different ways we can answer that. question. So, so like in in terms of.

like the legendary origins of the city, it's founded in 753 BC. This is when. Romulus kills Reheis and they found this. city in the, you know, the legendary. seven hills. Um, and it goes in the west. through 476 AD. So that right there is, you know, 750 plus another 500. So we're. like at 1,200, 1300 years. And then we. only here talk about sort of the Western. Empire. That's sort of what it captured. the European imagination because they're.

in a pos society. But the Eastern Empire. just transformed seamlessly into what we. now call the Byzantine Empire and that. lasted for another thousand years after. that. So if you say that there's a. continuum between Romulus founding Rome. in 753 and the final fall of uh of. Bzantium in the 1400s, you know, now we are over 2,000 years. You hear the fable about Romulus and. Remis, right? Can you tell me that fable. of how Rome was found? This is like kind. of a mythological fable. Do you know.

what I'm talking about? Oh, yeah, for. sure. It's and it and it is one of those. like these are archetypical this. archetypical mythos, right? And what it. is is we have a couple of babies who. were put into like a little like manger. thing and sent down a river. They had to. be purged because there was a king who. was afraid of them. Uh these these are. very standard stories. I mean these are. biblical stories uh in the same way. And. they allegedly, you know, wash up into. some reeds and then a wolf comes along. and they suckle. Yes, there it is. They.

suckle at the teeth of the wolf. Uh, and. then they grow up big and strong and. they wind up, you know, o they do. overthrow the king who was afraid of. them and found their own city. And I was. actually just talking about this with. some friends the other day because uh. there's a great bit in Libby uh who's. one of the great, you know, Latin. historians who was writing LI VVY LIV. LIVY LIVY. Yeah. And he was he was. around during um like the age of. Augustus. So So he's writing about stuff. like this is 750 years later. like he's.

he's talking about this and he's like, "Well, you know, it doesn't really seem. plausible that it was a wolf." Um, so. I'm thinking that maybe it was like a um. maybe it was like a corruption of. language and that there was like a local. prostitute whose name was Wolf and she. was the one who got So it's so it's. really funny like watching him sort of. wrestle with the mythos of Rome like. even trying to make this like a true. story at that time at that even at that. time and because he's 750 years in. beyond all that like we go back 750.

years from now like we're you know we're. like in Robin Hood days that's how far. away Livby was from the origin of his. own city. So the the myth isn't true, but how but how did it actually begin? I in my opinion, right, and in I think. in the opinion of like if if I was going. to offer like sort of the most. generalized and acceptable explanation. for this, it's basically that at the. Tyber River, which Rome is adjacent to. and sort of runs through Rome, uh there. there was a bend in it, so there was an.

easy place to cross the river to ford. the river. And right next to that is a. couple of prominent hills. And if you're. in if you're a very very early society. and you're looking for a place to build. a settlement, you know, it's very nice. to have some hills around because you. can build a little fortification on top. of it. And if anybody comes around to. mess with you, you have a a really nice. defensible position. So it really seems. like there were just some some early. people who, you know, come across these. hills who recognize that there's this. nice ford in the river and now they're. sort of on the trade routes that are.

running like up from southern Italy into. Atroia and then, you know, deeper into. the European interior and stuff that's. coming down from the interior and out. through southern Italy. So location, location, location, location. And then. ob and then, you know, the soil around. Rome and and in that whole, you know, swath of Italy is very fertile. So, you. know, they plop themselves down. Uh. they've got some good farms going. They've got trade routes coming through. They have a defensible position. And, you know, they've actually done uh. archaeological excavations, you know,

especially around the Capitol line hill. and the Palatine Hill, which is where. all of this stuff got going. And you. know, the earliest things that they find. are not too far off of like this, you. know, alleged 753. And these are some of. the early findings there on Palatine. Hill excavation. Wow. Yeah. And there. and there's just layers and layers and. layers because they, you know, they. built on top of what had come before. them. And so, do you think we've found a. lot of the stuff that's there or do you. think there's still a lot to be found? There's always more to be found. And.

actually an interesting thing about just. sort of archaeological theory is that. some of these places that you go to um. they know that there is stuff that is. buried that they are intentionally not. excavating because that what we have. right now the tools that we have right. now for archaeology it's it's inherently. destructive like you're going to wind up. destroying things in order to get it. what you're looking for and destroying. things in the ground like yeah destroy. yeah destroying things in the ground and. so there there are definitely places. where it's like we know that there's.

stuff there. We're not going to touch it. because who knows, maybe in 20 years or. 30 years or 50 years, we'll have better. technology and we can analyze this stuff. and dig into like maybe literally dig. into this stuff uh without damaging as. much as we know that we would damage it. today. That's pretty amazing for you. Um. so when you look so going back just to. that fable of Remis and Romulus, right, and Romulus Rome, that was how the name. comes through through the fable. Um like. how big was myth and fable at the time. when Rome began? Very big. Okay. I mean.

this this is you know early human. societies have all had myths and legends. about their own origins. Like this is. this is one of like the most basic. things that you will find in like every. society. You know indigenous tribes in. North America, indigenous tribes in. Siberia, you know the Romans Native. Americans. We have our own origin myths. here in the United States of America. right now. We've got, you know, George. Washington like never telling a lie. Like these are these are myths that we, you know, tell ourselves. Christopher.

Columbus and Thanksgiving, whether. there's truth to it or not, but it's. still these are myths that we tell. ourselves. Yeah. And so this is this is. a very common thing to just all human. societies. And so, yeah, them them. telling this story. And and it helps. you, you know, and it becomes less about. telling an accurate story of where we. came from as opposed to telling a story. about what kind of society we want to be. right now. What are our values? What are. our morals? What is it that we take. seriously? What is it that we think you. should do or not do? And a lot of early.

Roman history, like most of the stuff. that we read today to try to glean. factual information from Libby, from. Palibius, from Plutarch, whatever, um. those guys were using the past to tell. moral stories for a for their own. contemporaneous audience to get certain. things across to people. Like Marius had. an issue with ambition. Let's explore. that. let's talk about that. And that. was really for them the purpose of. history was to tell these these moral. stories. And that's, you know, that's.

that's a very common thing in all. societies. And it was certainly true for. the Romans in a really big way. Dude, having an issue with ambition, what an. interesting thing. Ambition's a. dangerous thing, man. Like it for you. know you we can't do anything without. ambition. Like nobody can do anything. without ambition. I would not have done. what I did without ambition. You would. not be sitting here without a little bit. of ambition to go. Sure, you want to. think about it. Yeah, you want to go do. stuff, but if you but it's like it's. anything. It's it's everything in. moderation. If you indulge too much in. ambition, now you're willing to do.

anything and and break anybody do, you. know, whatever it takes to get ahead and. now you're into hubris and now the gods. are going to punish you. And no, nobody. wants to be uh in the land of hubris. where the gods are like we we have to. show this person who's actually in. charge and it's not him, it's the gods. Yeah, it's fascinating, man. Where where. did we get all of the information we. have on Rome? There's many different. places. Um I think we could start by. talking about the what are called the. literary sources which is collections of.

either Latin histories or Greek. histories that were written at the time. And and again like when I say at the. time and we I I'll just keep going back. to Libby. Libby was writing at the time. but he's telling us about events from. 200 years earlier, 400 years earlier, 600 years earlier. So, it's not really a. contemporary history, but you know, he's. he's a huge source of information. Sorry. to interrupt, but why weren't there. histories at the time? Some of them were. and and the ones that we like a lot are.

the ones that are written very close to. events. Like there's a guy called Solist. uh who wrote a couple of histories where. he is writing about events very near to. his own lifetime where he is able to. talk to people uh who were there at the. time and he himself was a political. actor. he was in Caesar's faction during. the wars and so some of what he's. writing about happened at the time. Uh. Palibius definitely gets into stuff that. happened in his own lifetime. And then. sort of off of Rome, you know, there's. there's a great history of the. Pelpeneisian War by Thusidities who's. one of the main sort of architects of.

what we think of as history. And he was. definitely like you can't write about. history if you can't talk to people who. were there. Like that was his theory. So. there's there's sort of two branches of. of the literary sources. Most of the. literary sources that existed have been. lost. We are dealing with a a. microscopic fraction of what actually. existed at the time. And the thing that. is very frustrating is like we know that. there were these great histories that. were written that are referenced by. other historians and you're like, God, if we could just get a hold of that, oh.

my god. And I mean the the great white. whale is the emperor Claudius wrote uh. he and he comes from the Julio Claudian. dynasty and he wrote a history of the. civil wars that put the Julio Claudian. dynasty in power. Wow. That was. allegedly subsequently destroyed. For. what reason? Because it was too honest. and it was too truthful. And so like, oh. man, Claudius's history of of how the. Julio Cludians got into power, like I. would love to have a piece of that, but.

so we only have like a microscopic. amount. And this stuff is like, you. know, how did it get to us? It's like. it's stuff that winds up in like um in. like monasteries, you know, like monks. are copying this stuff down and. forwarding it along. Um things are just. like found randomly in libraries. So. those are the literary sources. And then. we supplement that with a lot of. archaeology and like and like analysis. of material culture because there are. limits to what the the literary sources. can tell us. And this is this is how we.

know more about how they lived like on a. daily basis, you know, because we've got. pottery, we've got, you know, different. how how did their furnaces run, like how. did their ovens run? Like all of this. stuff is coming from uh is coming from. archaeology. In Roman history in. particular, uh we also do a lot of study. of coins because they were constantly. pumping out coins and coins were were a. a means of sort of universalizing, you could call it propaganda, but like. messages that the emperor, the state. wanted to put out there. And um I think.

that was a big thing. If you started to. get some control, you'd have a coin. almost. It was the the thing like you. could almost say that like what did it. mean to be the Roman emperor? And there. are lots of different sort of things. that that means. The main thing it means. is that your face is on the money. And. your your face goes on the money. And. when we talk about like people rising up. and trying to usurp like like rival. emperors, like there's always this point. where they start minting their own coins. with their own face on it. And that's. okay. Now we've got a viable dude here.

because he's got control of a mint, right? Instead of show me the money, it's like show the money made. Show the. show the money to the people. And it's. and it's always stuff like I love the. army and then then they pump and then. they bump out all these coins and then. and then the army's like, "Oh, he loves. us. Maybe we should support him." Oh, they would put little slogans on them. Yeah. Yeah. There. Yeah. And they they. had all this like shortorthhand for like. what different symbols meant and and. they would recognize these things like. like Romans would recognize these things. at the time where these days you got to. be an expert to really like decode. what's going on on these coins. But but.

they had slang at the time almost or. like almost emoji not emojis but I mean. emojis isn't far gone. I mean it's it's. iconography in this emojis are just. iconography and there's also changes in. like sort of how the faces are depicted. um depending on what era of Roman. history we're into and so people can. spend their entire lives just studying. like Roman coinage but th those are. roughly like the three main pillars of. then how we how we know things about the. Roman Empire. So did people at the time.

keep diaries? Did they think about like. writing about their own lives at the. time like we do like recording ourselves. as much or that wasn't I think for most. people they're illiterate. That's I mean. mass illiteracy is definitely a thing. Okay. So when we are talking about like. what was it like for the Romans like on. a daily basis I think the first thing to. say is well it depends on what era. because we're talking about thousands of. years here and it does change over time.

but in the main uh ancient the ancient. world was largely rural and agrarian. Most people were doing farming. Most. people were doing either subsistance. farming or you know maybe they've got a. surplus that they can sell into the. market. And so you are living and. working on farms in those little. communities. And it's kind of the same. way that we think about, you know, rural. agrarian communities at any time and. place. You're kind of circumscribed. Uh. you're probably not going within 50. miles of where you grew up. Um you're.

living and dying going further than you. mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Excuse me. Like. very similar still to a lot of places. today. It's very it's very similar. This. is these are very human things. like. people don't go far from home like and. so that's that's their life is they are. living you know a a life of of rural. agrarian work which is either nice or. not depending on if you like the work if. you know when when it's going good it's. going good if there's a drought and. there's uh and you know then famine is.

sweeping through and that's not so good. and then but we also do have at this. point the rise of like major urban. centers so there is there there is a. major urban society that is happening. inside Rome. When you say a major urban. society like what does that mean? I'm. talking metropolises. city cities in the way we think about. cities. Okay. Um and Rome for example. was the first city in history to go over. a million people. That's how big it was. at its height. It was, you know, there's. a million people there. Let's, you know,

as big as Tucson, I think. How many. people are in Tucson, Arizona? I bet that's about the same. Oh, Tucson. only has 542,000. Try Milwaukee. Milwaukeee is probably. like 500,000. Yeah, I bet it's close. Look at that. So, the size of Milwaukee. and Tucson combined. There we go. Yeah. Double double double the size of. Milwaukee. I love Milwaukee. I I do too. Yeah, Milwaukee is a great little city, dude. Milwaukee is We've been touring. for p like years. But one of the one of. my f one of the places I found that. surprised me the most was Milwaukee.

It's got like really cool old. architecture. It's right there on this. bay and it has like this whole like. Yeah, I'm Yeah, I'm about like I don't. know 90 minutes west of Milwaukee and so. I'll get over there a couple times a. year usually usually for a Brewers game. and then I'll like stick around. Wisconsin's amazing, man. Lacrosse was. one of the other favorite places that I. found. Lacrosse. Yeah. All right. That's a deep cut. Just a perfect like. I've been through lacrosse. But anyway, but getting back to it. So, so Rome. actually is like a huge city. And there.

are other cities that are, you know, over a 100,000 people. This is this is. big for the ancient world. And inside of. those cities, you do have sort of this. this is when you have a different life. depending on what era of Roman history. you're actually talking about. whether. you're there as a wage worker, uh. whether you're an artisan, whether. you're one of the elite, and whether. you're involved in the law, like there. there's this whole like stratification. of of like professions that you can. have. And then we get into later sort of.

like the bread and circuses aspect of. Roman civilization where the empire. itself became so rich and so powerful. and all like the wealth of the entire. Mediterranean world is like flowing into. this city and this is what's causing. people to like move there and and come. in to Rome and then you know we need we. do need to feed these people and so you. start getting like grains and uh and. then you know circuses and games were. always a huge huge part of Roman society. and so they would throw these spectacles.

for people. And there there is a there. is a book about daily life in ancient. Rome that, you know, at the height of. the empire, a lot of what you were doing. is kind of like bouncing around from. patron to patron, picking up a few coins. from this guy, picking up a few coins. from that guy, getting through your day, and then getting up the next morning and. doing it all over again. And you didn't. really have a profession. Uh, you were. able to just kind of like bum around, figure out your hustle a little bit. And. what was the religion at the time? like. did things start to change from. mythology into actual religion during. Rome? I think those two things are very.

linked. The Romans are very reliable. They were very into ritual and sacrifice. and they took it really really. seriously. And when we look at the myths. that they told about themselves um you. know the the first the first king of. Rome is Ramulus. And what was Ramulos? Romulus was a warrior above all. And. this is actually like what the Romans. are above all. They are the children of. Mars. They do war. They're really good.

at it. That's why they conquer the. entire Mediterranean world. They're. better at it than just about anybody. else. So, it's a very masculine society. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's it's it's the. patriarchy like to the max. And and they. were very Marshall society and and their. sort of Marshall society. Marshall. society. And like their their political. institutions are mirroring their. military institutions and the console. and their leaders are simultaneously, you know, they're they're the political. leader but also the the leader of the.

armed forces. This is actually what. their job is. Wow. The other role of the. console, however, the console, the. console, right, which is, you know, one. of the key leaders in the Republican. era, is um overseeing these critical. sacrifices and critical rituals that the. Romans felt that they had to perform and. needed to do in order to stay on the. right side of the gods. And that was the. job of the political leadership was to. defend the city using the armies and to. make sure that the gods were happy by. making the proper sacrifices. And so the.

second king of Rome, this guy called. Numa, he was all about religion. And so. when they tell this story, they're like. the first guy is war. And then the. second guy comes in and he's like, uh, we need religion to like guide this in. like an ethical way and like to make. sure that we're not just like insane. barbarians, that we actually like have. an ethical and moral structure to our. society. And those are the two things. And then the next there there's. legendarily like seven kings of Rome. Like there's seven hills, there's seven. kings of Rome. Like you know, seven's a. lucky number. It kind of always has. been. And so when you when we talk about.

the seven kings of Rome, there's like it. goes like warrior, religious guy, warrior, religious guy, warrior, you. know, religious guy in because those two. things go hand in hand for like one side. the other, one side the other. So even. that's even still today in our society. It kind of seems like it's like there's. two parties sort of and it's one it's. one side the other one way the other. Yeah. And and and what those sides and. what they are change and their values. change over time. Yeah. And and when we. talk about them being a religious. people, you know, this is this is uh. sort of pagan polytheistic religion. And.

so there were different gods, right? And. we and we know these gods, a lot of them. were borrowed from from the Greeks. So. it's, you know, it's Jupiter is is Zeus. and there's, you know, Manurva and. there's, you know, Bacus and and all of. these, you know, different gods that are. out there. So they didn't have religion. in the sense of like there was one thing. that everybody did and was a part of and. and everybody went to church on Sundays. There were just there were different. temples in different places and like one. city their patron would be Apollo,

another city their patron uh would be. Diana, right? And so it would it would. change from time to place. And so they. had this very um open-mindedness. towards religion and how you practiced. religion. When they when they would come. across a new society uh and by come. across I mean conquer, they would often. incorporate those religions or they. would or they would make sort of what. they were doing their religious. sacrifices their gods and they would be. like oh this is analogous to our thing. over here. It's probably two aspects of. the same god that we're talking about.

and it would all just be integrated into. one thing. And how were they able to. master that control, but just because. their army was so powerful at its base, the legions do a lot to keep people in. line. Um, so the political leaders were. often also the leaders on the. battlefield. They were Wow. They were. That's what that's literally what they. were there to do. Wow. Yeah. So that's. as if James Carville would actually. would also then have a military he would.

have to be a politician or uh Fedterman, you know, the laidback uh warriors. Um. but anybody or the casual dress down. Friday warriors, you know, which I think. would be they would love it. Great. So. they would love it. But those people. also if I love the fact that if they. made rules for people they also would. have to get out on the battlefield and. at some way they have to put their money. where their they have to put their blood. where their mouth is 100% and it. actually goes deeper than that. So yeah, if if you're run if you're running for. console and you want to be console, the.

thing that you want for yourself and. expect for yourself is to be the leader. of the legion and then go out and defeat. something or someone uh on behalf of. Rome and then come back and have a. triumph. And the triumph is you getting. to parade through Rome and show off the. spoils of your conflict. And um. sometimes there were actual wars to. fight and sometimes there's there's this. very funny thing. It's called triumph. hunting which is when a console becomes. comes into power and he's like there's. nobody to fight. And so he'll just pick. some random tribe and attack them and be.

like oh I defeated such and such a. people so he can have his triumph. Which. we still do today in different ways. Yeah. But create enemies. I mean Yeah. Yeah. We we do invent enemies and then. go fight them, don't we? Um but but. there is but there is a thing like in in. early Roman society. um really through almost to the end of. the republic there was a property. qualification to serve in the legions. because you had to have enough money you. had to have enough land to participate.

in the legions. Their assumption, their. their sort of cultural assumption was. that the people who constitute this. society that we are in are fundamentally. like the the land owners. And if so, if. you own a plot of land, then you're a. part of the society. You're the people. who go and fight for this society and. defend this society. If you are uh you. know, if you're in poverty, if you don't. have land, you don't qualify for service. in the Legion because in their mind, you're not actually really truly a part. of this thing that we are trying to. defend, right? So, how could you put. that you're you're all into it if you.

don't have something you don't have a. vested interest almost. Yeah. And and. then the leaders and then and then yeah, the higher you go, the more you are out. there. Now, granted, like they're in the. command tent, uh you know, they're. you're not like on a horse like. literally leading the charge, but you. were expected to be out there and an. active military leader and everybody who. had a stake in that society. That meant. that you also had to be there. The. richest people in society went off to. war. the poorest people stayed behind. and we have kind of uh flipped that.

Yeah. God, that's fascinating. I can't. even imagine that. But it sounds like, you know, you always hear like, "Oh, I. wish all of these um you know, if these. politicians had to have their children. go off to war, they would feel totally. different about the things that they. send children off to war to do, you. know." Yeah. They're called chicken. hawks. Yeah. Yep. Wow. Mhm. I didn't. know that that was the term it is. Yeah. Yeah. Chicken hawks. Yeah. We've had. chicken hawks all throughout history. the people who will bang the drums of. war and then send other people off to. die. Wow. A chicken hawk has go back up.

to the top. Sorry. Has multiple. meanings. In bird names, it refers to. three hawk species. Coopers, sharpshinned, and red tailed. In gay. slang, it's used to describe an older. man who prefers younger males. Okay. And. politically, it can describe someone who. supports war but avoids military. service. Ah, like draft dodgers kind of. Yeah. Similar to that. H. Yeah. Yeah. And we've had a whole run of them as. presidents. You know, Clinton got out of. it, Bush got out of it, Trump got out of. it. Oh, yeah. Um, you know, Obama, I.

don't think had the opportunity to. Um, but yeah, we certainly have not followed. that same steed where the people who are. writing the rules are the same one who. have to go out there and make sure it's. not uh make sure it's their own blood. that's providing the ink. Yep. Have you ever been to a water park and. when you finally get to the top of the. baddest water slide, you look down and. have that final thought, what's the. worst that can happen? Well, a Morgan. and Morgan client found out. He was.

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topped lemonades. Get sweet topped. lemonades now in the Sonic app. Holy [ __ ] dude. You're so good at this. Have you ever Have you ever taken this. on tour, Mike? Um, do you ever think. about that? So So I go I go on book. tours, okay? And I do that. I did two. years ago. I went I I wrote a 75minute. monologue. that's just me like at a. table talking for 75 minutes and took. that around and that was moderately.

successful. Um, it was sort of like a. big, you know, meta an not analysis but. like meta take on history and how we. tell stories and what the stories of. history mean to us and and it's it is. like a lot of what I just said how we. shape our present society is the stories. we tell about the past. You I could see. this being a fascinating tour. I don't. know exactly how you do it, but I just. You got to do a tour this. I could see. this. I want to talk at the end about. what it would be like if we had a tour. that you went on like with some visual.

Yeah, we're we're actively planning this. now. Great. Good. This is how things. happen. Yes, it is. Because we both got. a little bit of ambition, don't we? Yes. Yes, we do. That is fascinating. And the. fact that that if if if a government. found a way to curtail people's. ambition, Wow. How fascinating that is. because you never even think that that. could be happening to you. you know, were they curtailing people's ambition. during Rome? Um, well, I mean, certainly, uh, slave a slave was. encouraged to not think that there was. anything else that they could do but be. a slave. A woman was encouraged to.

believe that there was not anything that. she could do but be a a woman who was. mostly there to make little Roman boys. Um, so yeah, there there was an elite. that was allowed to have these kinds of. ambitions, but a lot of other people. were supposed to know their place. Got. it. And so it was a cast system pretty. much. Yeah. and and you know like. stoicism there there's lots of great. stuff about stoicism as you know one of. the you know main sort of philosophies. that comes out of the ancient world. Um. but one of the sort of I think negative. things about stoicism is it encouraged.

people to just do the best they could. with whatever they were meant to be. And. so yeah if you're a slave you were just. told well be the best slave that you can. be. That's not really a great message. and and Marcus Aurelius who's one of the. you know great you know voices in. stoicism would be like you know we all. have our role to play in this and I. should be the best emperor that I can be. and you should be the best soldier you. can be and you should be the best slave. you can be and aren't my burdens the. same as as that of the slave and it's. like well Marcus I'm not actually sure. that's true. Um it's a nice thought and.

I do understand that there are burdens. to being emperor but it's easy for you. to say that. Yeah it's pretty easy for. you to say that. Um uh less less so for. the slave. What did people wear during. the time? Like what was some common garb. kind of. Well, I am not an expert. Okay. On on. what they were wearing around. Oh, yeah. I feel that for sure. Um, but you know. the our I I can say this the sort of the. togas that we all imagine them wearing, this is very this is very upper crust.

wear. The toga was, you know, practically a tuxedo. Like you would. clock that in Roman society as like this. person's walking around in something. very fancy. M um and it's something that. the senatorial class would wear around. So like most people are not buming. around in daily life wearing a toga. They and those were actually like. they're very cumbersome, right, to wear. around. It was it was a it was a. cumbersome piece of clothing. Yeah. It's. almost like you're playing hideand go. seek in your own clothing. It's very you. know because you think it's going to be. easy and you got to keep this end up.

It's like people's like Yeah, I'm a go. I'm I'm a ghost or whatever. But and you. probably had a nice piece of fabric from. somewhere which was something only. wealthy people would have. Yeah. Yeah. And and when you get into sort of like. what what are the fruits of having this. kind of empire and having uh trade. routes that are now reaching to China, yeah, they yeah, they've got silks. coming in. They've got other kinds of. like fancy finery that they get to wear. But like most people are are in rough. tunics, you know, and like some sandals. Um and that's about what they're. wearing. Yeah, that's Yeah, you didn't.

have any Air Force Ones or anything. Did. they have um What were people eating at. the time? If you are just a peasant, you're eating. whatever's around, you know, barley, millet, you know, like like parts of. beer. Yeah. Bar Yeah. It's there's a lot. of barley and millet, you know, that's. got that's going around. Um, you know, if you're on the coast, you know, you've. got fish coming in and you've got uh you. know, you know, different kinds of, you. know, the the fruits of the the the flu.

deare, right, in French, which is the. fruits of the sea, which is seafood. Um. there's some, you know, there's meat, there is red meat that people are. eating, but it's, you know, in in far. less quantities than we eat today. And. then, you know, they you can get Roman. cookbooks today where people go through. like different recipes that we sort of. knew that they had and like, you know, door mice always seemed to show up as. one of the things that people like to. eat. Um, a little door mouse. Yeah, a. little a little door mouse action.

You're we always we always got to do. that when we do Roman food. Um there's a. great sort of like fish sauce called. garam that they were all you know that. they were wild for which is actually the. principal export of Pompei uh before. they garum. Yeah. Before they Yeah. They. were Yeah. They're famous famous for. their fish sauce. Um and then you know. and then what are they drinking? They're. they're drinking wine and you know. there's a lot of wine being consumed uh. in the ancient world and they would they. would make this like it was it was very.

it was a very thick wine and so you port. almost. Yeah. But so much so that like. you would cut it with water and so it. was it was almost like concentrate right. in the way it's like cool like Kool-Aid. I remember we used to have like that. they used to have the sell that uh. orange juice concentrate like in a. frozen block. Oh yeah that's good. And. your mom would buy that and put that. into something. Mhm. So it's Yeah, it's. basically that and that's that's a lot. of what their wine was. Ah, so a lot of. their wine was a concentrate and then. people would splash would uh cut it with. water and then have themselves a bit and. and there would be um you know there.

would be sort of like you know if if. somebody was really you know had a. problem with alcohol, you would say that. they drank it without cutting it, you. know, that was that was like a a thing. that would get passed around. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. He just he would just drink it. straight. That's not so good. Oh Ricky's. drinking it straight, huh? Oh, he's not. doing well. No, he's not doing well. We. need to have an intervention. Yeah. Um. could a peasant rise up in society at. the time? Was there any chance that like. because you always there's this I think. there's this idea, right, that like.

you're the peasant in the at on the. parade route and you see the princess go. by and and you catch her eye and then. you have a chance to be her boyfriend or. whatever, spouse or whatever. You know, you have I think that's every like poor. kid's dream, you know, like certainly. when I was growing up, you would think. like some rich girl would see you and. then her dad would think you were nice. and then you would have a chance to help. run his car dealership one day, right? That's and that's the dream. Um or coin.

car wash, dude. We had this hottie at. our school, dude, named Emily, dude. And. her dad had two coin car washes, bro. Yeah. Oh, aspir aspirations of a. lifetime. Oh, man. Yeah. And that's what. you could have been doing and instead. you're stuck here doing this. I I bet. that what what an awful turn of events. You could have had two coin operated car. dealerships and instead you just have a. very successful career in podcasting. But you know what's funny? There's a. part of me that still just want you just.

still want to be picked by her to be the. inherity of those two coin op car. washes. God, they were nice, boy. And I. still, man, that just the idea that. still just pressure washes my soul, you. know. So, to answer your question, um, you know, social mobility in the ancient. world ain't great. Um, you know, if you. if you were born a peasant, you're. almost certainly going to die a peasant. There are, you know, once we move along. through the empire, sort of the republic.

has fallen, we are now into the imperial. age. Um there's certainly like commoners. who are elevated a little bit in the way. that you're talking about. They become a. favorite of the emperor and then there's. a lot of like griping like who is this. guy? Why does he why does he get, you. know, access to the emperor when we. don't? This is all very embarrassing. Um. that we have this commoner around. Um. and and that'll happen, you know, sporadically over hundreds of years. It. didn't happen very often. Um when you.

get into sort of like the second and. third centuries um we there is a. phenomenon of being able to enter the. army and having that be the main sort of. avenue of social mobility and and this. is actually you know now that I think. about this is actually true for most of. the empire at least once the legions. become professionalized is how how do. you how do you move up in the world? The. legions and when you say those are the. bad the those are the just the armies. The armies. Okay. We're we're just. talking about that when they become. professionalized. you are they become.

professionalized. So when people start. to see that as a way to move up rank. Mhm. And if you're if you're a. provincial and there is a what does. provincial mean? Just see uh provincial. is somebody who is uh lives in the. province lives in a province of the. Roman Empire who is not themselves a. Roman citizen. Okay. Okay. So this these. are the provincials and a provincial. could become a citizen through service. in the army and that and if you somehow. managed to make it through 20 years of. service you would be discharged with. citizenship papers and there there are.

tablets they're called resumes um you. can find them in museums that then you. would carry that around like for the. rest of your life. It was like the most. precious thing in your possession, right? If you had one of these things. because then wherever you went, you're. like, you have to treat me differently. because I have citizenship. You can't. mess with me. And so these the yeah, these are very very important things. that people would have when when the. empire starts to run into troubles. militarily, socially, politically like. in the second and third and third.

century. There is a run of emperors in. the 3rd century who who become emperors. because they had risen through the ranks. from the lowest rank all the way up. because when you're in a crisis there's. kind of two paths in front of you. You. can either cling to the leadership that. had been leading you before and in fact. like probably created this crisis or you. allow talent to rise up and you're like. okay let's let's have the people who. know what they're doing wherever they. come from like who cares let's have them. be in charge. And so there's this run of.

of emperors from Yria who when we look. at their biographies, it's always like. they came they they were peasants. They. were commoners. They enter in the lowest. possible rank and then they rise up. through through talent and through will. and through merit to become generals. And then that's the transition point. into becoming an emperor. But like when. you actually dig into it there there's. this way of like if you're really rich. and you're like, "Oh, that person came. from nothing." A lot of the times. they're just talking about like a.

regular middle class kid, not like not. really somebody who grew up in poverty. It's just somebody who grew up without. like insane amounts of wealth. And so. sometimes when they're like, "Oh, this. this future emperor came from nothing.". It was very possible that they were like. a wellto-do local family who rise up, right? They just weren't royalty. They. just Yeah. They just weren't royalty. So. it's so it's kind of difficult to tell. But there is but but in general that's. how you're going to go from being what. you were which is nothing to maybe being. something is it's the army that's going. to do it for you. Wow. And it was it's.

been that way for a long time in. America. So I don't feel like I don't. know if it's that way as of much now but. I certainly felt like it used to be that. way more. Yeah. I mean like America's. experience with armies is uh is. different and but very similar to what. it was um you know kind kind of in the. early days of Rome where it's it's not. so much like you only rich people would. go off and serve in in war but when when. we did have broad-based conscription for. like World War II and and for the Korean. War and for World War I like all of.

society's kind of going off and and. being a part of the army and then you. come back and yeah maybe you have like. you rose up the rank and now you're a. captain and when you come back to. civilian society now you've got some. stature you know you've you know you've. you've proven yourself and now your. resume looks quite a bit better for. sure. Oh yeah, I remember. Yeah, when. military guys would come to visit your. school or something. I mean, it felt. like it meant something, you know, certainly when I was a child. Um, and. not that it still doesn't. I just think. there was probably more combat then or. coming off of more combat or you had.

more friends dads who had gone into. heavy combat and so you would those. stories were more plentiful probably in. society at the time. That's why I say. that. Um, what were women regarded like. at the time? Did they because there were. female gods, goddesses? Sure. So, obviously there was a and it was a war. society and you had like Athena, the god. of war, Athena. Mhm. Um, but you had. female goddesses that were powerful. How. how were women viewed in society during. Roman times? So, it's a strongly.

patriarchal society and the head of the. household is invariably a man and they. are in charge of everything. And so, if. you're a woman, in one respect, you. don't really have rights at all. like. who you marry, what happens to you, where you go, like most of these things. are completely out of your hand. Wow. And what you're really there to do, the. the most important thing that you can do. is make babies to fill the legions so. that we can continue to be this strong.

military society that we are. But all of. that said, the Romans also did have. written into law actually there there. did become spaces for women to own. property in their own right to be able. to manage some of their own affairs. financially. Um, a lot of early. Christianity, for example, is bankrolled. by wealthy widows because they had they. had had a husband, they had had a. family, that husband dies, they don't. remarry. There is there is legal space.

for them to exist as a widow who's. unconnected to a man who controls her. own money. And when we this the story of. early Christianity like who was um who. was patron who was a patron of this like. who was patronizing these early. Christian groups a lot of it is like. wealthy widows is where the money is. coming from. So, it's it's a mixed bag, but I would say like in the main, if you. were a woman in Roman society, uh you do. not have a ton of rights at all. Were.

there what did they do like if if. children were born with disabilities, handicaps and stuff like that? How were. people treated like that? Not great. You. know, exposure is a thing, you know. And. what does that mean exposure? Like put. them out on a trash pile? Really? Yeah. [ __ ] That's crazy, dude. What What did. people think of life at the time? Did. they value their life? Did it mean as. much to them as it feels seems like it. does to us today in America? Does that. make sense to you? It does. And I think. it did. I think their lives did matter. to them a lot. And even though, you.

know, we were just talking about like. exposing babies because they couldn't. live, right? That was like a difficult. choice that they would make. But we. often today because we have all this. advanced medical technology and because. we have vaccines and because we've. basically eradicated childhood diseases. which is one of the biggest killers in. world history. Like childhood vaccines. is one of the greatest accomplishments. in the history of human civilization. Right? Prior to the 20th century the.

mortality rates for children were. appalling. And this is why you had to. have six seven kids because three or. four of them might not live to. adulthood. Wow, bring that up. And so we. think these days that like, oh, because. of that, because there was that much. death surrounding them at all times, because loved ones were dropping dead. left and right, that they must have been. more callous. They can't possibly have. cared about each other as much if. they're just going to die. And I have in. all of the historical studies that I. have done, I just don't find that to be. true. People loved their children. We.

love our children as human beings, right? It wasn't different for them. If. a if a woman gives birth to a child, she. loves that child. And if that child dies. at the age of 18 months, that is a. devastating tragedy. It is the worst. thing that can happen to a person is the. death of a child. Full stop. Nothing. else even comes close. It affected them. in that way. They cared about each other. in that way. They tried to protect each. other and save each other. We always we. are always fighting for life and we are. always fighting to save people that we.

love. And so it is absolutely not the. case that they were more callous or more. hard-hearted. Why do we get that idea. then? Because I I see what you're saying. cuz Yeah. God, I can only imagine. because we because we can't conceive of. what that must have been like. Because. if you know, if I had five kids, I mean, if if either one of my kids died, I'd be. that's it. I'm I'm a wreck. Like I I. don't even know how to recover from. that. Yeah. We just had a guy on Kevin. Von Eric and he lo um he has a famous.

movie. Well, he has a famous life. His. five of his brothers died. Okay. They. were professional wrestlers in the 80s, 70s and 80s in Texas and five of them. died from suicides and different and he. said. that and he he's just a remarkable man. He said, "I lost all my brothers." He. goes, "But I could not imagine losing. one of my children." Yep. And it was. just fascinating. Not fascinating to. hear that. Of course, you get that, but.

you know, yeah, it's interesting to. think that that that the that the weight. of that would be it's interesting to. have some quantifiable weight of that um. coming from someone like him. And. hearing it from you, let me see. In. ancient Rome, infant mortality was. significantly higher than today with. estimates suggesting that about 25 to. 30% of children died in their first year. of life. Wow. That's every single one of. those deaths mattered, right? Every. single one of them mattered. You almost. had to have three children to get two. children. Yep. God, it's hard. It's.

hard, man. And that's why that's why. vaccines are so great. That's why it's. so important that they exist because. what was what was killing these kids? It. was early childhood diseases. Yeah. Bring up the bring up how did vaccines. change the life expectancy of children. Just so we know that. We've never looked. at that. You hear everybody talk about. vaccines. We've talked about I don't. we've listened a lot about it in here. Let me see. Child immunity specifically. started with Edward Jenner's successful. smallox vac vaccination in 1796. Yeah.

The practice of vaccination including. for small pox gained traction throughout. the 19th century with Massachusetts. being the first state to require it for. school children in 1853. Great. Dude, they should require it in Massachusetts. just for that uh accent. You know what I'm saying? But I mean. this is obviously something that has. been at the forefront of like scientific. investigation, right? the fact that they. that it was such a problem that they. were losing this many children that it. it was like this is something we have to. figure out. If we can figure this out. and stop this, let's do it because every. one of those deaths, it's not just like.

we've lost that person. Like every. person who was connected to that kid is. now traumatized by that. So you so you. have these societies that just everybody. is walking around not hard-hearted, not. caring about these things, but basically. victims of trauma. They've all been. traumatized. And that is that does. inform uh what previous societies were. like. Um that had a lot more to do with. the fact that we care about each other. than the fact that we did not care about. each other. Wow. And I bet care was.

almost at a different depth than because. it moments probably meant something more. because you there was I mean it was. literally in the trash pile of your like. the mourning was on the curb of not only. of your heart but of your home. Mhm. Oh, I can't even imagine that. It's a hard. thing to imagine. Yeah. And God, I think. imagine how much more light how real it. was then. We one I guess it's a blessing. that we have today is how we're able to. kind of hide things from our own reality.

in a way. um if that makes any sense. kind of especially visually you know. we're were able to uh you know one thing. I always that I thought was neat about. being like cuz we grew up in like a. really poor area and. you couldn't hide anything like if. somebody was getting a butt whooping if. somebody was if parents were fighting. everything it was all right there right. and it was a blessing and a curse it was. like it was too much information for a. kid but then also it was like this is.

real I'm involved in a [ __ ] show, right? Like they nobody's tucking. anybody in. The nightlight in my room. gave up two years ago. He moved to. [ __ ] Minneapolis. It's like, you. know, it just I don't know. There was. something real about And then when you. have some money, you got like you can. get hedges and you get a fence and you. get to you get an attorney, you get. things to hide behind. Well, I I mean, I. grew up in, you know, the affluent. suburbs of Seattle, Washington, right? So, I so I'm I'm from the suburbs of the. 80s and 90s. And so, yes, it was very. much not that. It was everybody's fine,

everything is great. We all go to our. little, you know, single standing houses. and and every family is doing great. And. then, you know, and then it, you know, behind closed doors and underneath all. that. Yeah, of course I listen to. Nirvana. I was I was 11, man. I like. when Yeah. When when Smells Like Teen. Spirit came out, like I was 11 years. old, so like I was I was just deep in. the scene. Of course I was. Yeah. Oh, those early moshfits, dude. Every one of. my friends older brothers was in a. horrible band. Sure. That would play. It.

would be like a pet store. They would. move all the cages into the back and. they would have a little mosh pit and. they would because Eddie Veter showed. everybody that you could sing with a. kind of deep voice which we can all kind. of do. And so it was like oh my god this. is the thing that we can do now and like. and so because we can all do that. whereas before that it was all the glam. metal guys with these like registers. that were just like I don't even know. how you do that. Like I can't even hear. that. Yeah. like Vince Neil, those guys. Exactly. Yeah. Like I can't I can't. emulate that. But Eddie Veter I can do. and like you know screaming into him. I. I I come from punk, right? That was sort.

of my like like Skinny Puppy, that type. of stuff. Oh, no. Like you know like. '90s thirdwave stuff. Um you know like. Rancid and Bad Religion and No Effects. Acid Bath. No, not Acid Bath. Okay. Sorry. It's okay. Yeah. All right. Slipnot. Gas Huffer. Yeah. Uh well, no. Slipnot is like now we're that's metal. We're getting into metal and I've like. I'm not a metal guy. Um, I do not but I. do not uh believe that there is a split. between metal and punk. I think we have. far more in common with each other than. we don't. And so I will always uh be a. peacemaker and an ambassador between.

metal and and punk because I don't want. us to fight. I want us to be on the same. side because we're all probably throwing. shows at the same crappy little place. I. love that. And if there's ever a treaty. to be signed, I would love for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Metal metal and. punk, right? We need to stand in. solidarity with each other. But that. said, I do not listen to metal at all. I. think it's I think it's overblown and. ridiculous. I want three chords and some. incoherent yelling. Yeah, that's that's. what I that's what I want out of music. Dude, that's so cool, man. Um, is.

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Thank you. What did the kings and the. royalty live like? Were they living? Was. it just like a What was it like over. there? Could you just knock on the. drawbridge? How did you even get over. there? Well, for one thing about the Romans is. they did not have kings anymore. And. this is an important part of their. political ideology. Once they kicked the. kings out in the legendary date of 509. BC, um there aren't kings anymore. Okay. And why did they kick the kings out? Uh. the for a variety of reasons. most.

especially like it was it was. immediately caused by uh the. aristocratic the aristocrats of the. senatorial class not liking the last. king of Rome and it's actually a story. that he he raped the daughter of a. prominent senator and so that's what. precipitated the overthrow of of of the. last Tarquin king um and that was the. from R that was in the Roman that's how. the Roman Republic started. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, cuz like if you go back like. Romulus allegedly founds Rome 753 and. then they're kings of Rome for like 250.

years and then around 500 that's when. the republic gets going. And what. started the republic again? Take me. through that story. The like the the. legendary story is that there's a last. king who was the the the local. senatorial elite in Rome did not like. him very much. What was his name? Uh. Tarquin. Okay. And the Tarquin family. comes from Yeah. Yeah. Tarquin is. supervisous. But they they were an. Aturan family and Aturia is north of. Rome, not Roman. So it was a foreign it. was a foreign monarchy that had So there.

were provincials. Uh the Romans were. being ruled Yeah. the Romans were being. ruled by a king who came from someplace. else. That that's all it is. It's a it's. a foreign monarch which which is. something that is common throughout. history. And so they don't like the. foreign monarch. And this is all trying. to like sort of capture how the Romans. get out from under the cultural hegemony. of of Aturia at the time because the. Atruscans were quite a bit better at. things earlier uh than the Romans were. and then the Romans come along and. supplant them. Um but to your question. of which is really like the high.

aristocracy, the senatorial class and. then ultimately the emperors like how. are they living? Well, oh and wait did. we finish the story? What happened? Oh, you told us about the story about what. happened with the with the Oh, yeah. According to according to the story, Tarquin raped the daughter of of a. prominent setter in Rome and and that. guy goes and he rallies all of his, you. know, his brothers and his allies and. his friends and they overthrow the king. and they kick him out and then they say, "We're not doing kings anymore." Wow. We. are going to do a like job rotation. system and set up protodemocratic.

assemblies. And then that's how they ran. themselves for like 500 years. And is. that how democracy began? Well, democracy Yeah, it's I mean it's one of. the places like Yeah. I mean democracy. is coming from like Greece, right? They're they're they're they're they're. taking cultural cues from what's. happening over in Greece because like. just as and and there there is debate. about when the Roman Republic was. actually founded because you do get sort. of Solon coming over to Athens and being. like the great lawgiver of Athens and. sort of the like I'm going to get this.

date wrong but it's like around 470 is. when he's the lawgiver of Athens and. this is when you start getting sort of. like what we think of as democratic. government. And it's entirely possible. that later Roman historians went and. backdated like they retconed their own. history so that they would come along. like 30 years before that because. everybody knew about what was going on. in Athens and they were like actually we. got there 30 years earlier which is just. them you know doing a little light. revision of their own history in order. to make sure that they were always the. super bus. It's like an Instagram. filter. It's like an Instagram filter.

Exactly. Jakarta. Yeah. But you know if. if you're a senator So now we have the. republic going on. This is where the. republic of Rome. This is the second of. kind of three of the one of the This is. the second of kind of the three main. parts of Rome. Then we get into the. Roman Empire. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. So. now we no longer have kings. No longer. have kings. King's bad. You cannot be a. king. In fact, if anybody tries to be a. king, if anybody tries to become a king, any Roman citizen can kill that person. Oh yeah. Kill the kings. Oh yeah. Sacramento king. No kings. There's a.

there is a reason why the emperors are. not kings because kings are forbotten, right? you are not ever going to be a. king. And every Roman senator ultimately. thought that they were superior to any. king. And and there were kings. throughout the Mediterranean world who. would be like clients of of of the Roman. Empire. And any Roman senator considered. themselves socially, morally, politically above a mere king. So you. have the republic now and the the the. the counselors of the republic, the rich. guys. How were they how were they living.

at the time? those the the people who. were sort of the aristocrats which is. the you know synonymous with the. senatorial class. They are the major. land owners of Rome. And so they do not. have occupations. They are living off of. the rents of their land. They're living. off of the produce of, you know, the. peasants who are living on their land. and then ultimately the slaves who are. living on their land. That's that's. where their income is coming from. That's where their wealth is coming.

from. They themselves don't have to do. anything. They don't have to have a. profession. They don't have to have a. job. And in their minds, this is what. made them the perfect people to lead the. republic because they were the only. people who had the leisure time to like. be literate, to read things about. history, to learn things about how to. actually do statecraft, to have the time. to engage in all of those pursuits. And. that made them like uniquely able. And. then but and then if you say like well. hey maybe we should educate everyone.

then and then like we can have all these. like no no no no no no we don't want to. go that far because really they just. wanted to be in charge. Um but there but. there is but there is sort of a a. self-justifying. um like ideological project there which. is which is like we're the ones who have. the time to do this and so we will be. the ones who do it. And so, you know, they had they had they would have. country villas. They would usually have. like a place in the city. A lot of them. clustered on the Palatine Hill. That's I. mean to this very day, you know, jockeying for a house in the best. neighborhood. This is I mean this is a.

tale as old as time. This is what was. going on on the Palatine Hill. Um you. know, you wanted to be in a good house. in a bigger house um amongst the other. people who were thinking and making. decisions. But at this time even. literacy was kind of a uh delicacy. Yeah. Yeah. literacy was a was a very. rarified thing. Um, and did they have. like prostitutes and stuff like that? What was that? Was that going on? Oh, sure, man. I mean, that's the world's. oldest profession. So, yeah, dude. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. There were.

Yeah, there were sex workers for sure. Um, and then, you know, they would. do whatever they wanted to do, but. there, you know, they're living off the. best food. Um they have household slaves. who are doing all the manual labor for. them you know up to and including you. know at certain points like literally. handfeeding them you know you can really. you could have them do it I mean would. people get kind of exorbitant at that. time how did how strange did it get do. you feel like uh well you know it. probably got pretty freaky um there is.

definitely there's there's some uh. there's some like satires that were. written there were some humorous uh sort. of satires that were written about the. life of the aristocracy Um, and these. are very much like, oh yeah, there. Yeah. What was going on behind closed. doors was quite, you know, we would. consider it taboo. Like like was it. perverted? Like was it like I mean I. know like ped was it like pedophilia. type stuff? No. No. No. Nothing. No. I I. don't think it's anything like that. Although in some times and places, yeah,

for sure. Um because that's always been. something that's been with us, unfortunately. Um, but yeah, you know, there's there's orgies, there's drinking. parties, there's, you know, they're. putting on, you know, theatrical plays, and, you know, it's it's body, it's. rivaled, you know, all that. Bakanalia. That's Yeah. Yeah. Bakanalia. I mean, that's that's where this stuff comes. from. Yeah. I grew up in New Orleans. area, so it's like we would, you know, you'd see the FL, you know, the. different parades. I mean, the list we. put up earlier, that was that's 80% of. the names of all the uh all the.

different parade groups that are there. Yeah. Um, so the rich were living it up. They. were enjoying themselves. They were the. ones who were getting together and. thinking. They were the ones that were. strategizing. Are they still the ones. that are going out into the battlefields. too? Yeah. Yeah. For for, you know, centuries. Absolutely. You know, and and. you know, whether they liked it or not, Cicero famously, you know, complained. about having to do military service. because he wasn't a soldier. He didn't. consider himself a soldier. He wanted. to, you know, he was engaged in the law.

He didn't have to be like Cicero could. have just sat around and done nothing. for sure if he wanted to but but he does. get you know involved in you know. basically having a legal career and but. he had to go do his service in order to. qualify to be a console even though he. wasn't you know a soldier at all and. also you know there there's a very. famous or famous inside the you know the. Roman historian world uh where a buddy. of his is writing to him and it's like. you know how do you feel about being a. console and and having to be in charge. of all these like religious things when. you're like an atheist? ist and he's.

like, "Well, yeah, I'm an atheist. I. don't believe any of it." Not. necessarily. But we go through the. motions, don't we? Um, how did how did people uh what was. plumbing like, waste management? How did. people wash their clothes? Okay. Um, these are not areas I'm an expert in. Okay. So, but I I can, you know, I can I. can tell you some things because the. Romans were very good about aqueducts.

and sort of having running water in. different places, but you know, yeah, they they've got pipes, they've got. public latrines. Um, but sometimes. you've also just got chamber pots that. you're filling up and throwing out the. window when you're done with it. You. know that one of the things about the. past is that it probably stunk to high. heaven everywhere you go. Yeah. Yeah. Like I like when you read about the way. people live. Yeah. Like like oh when you. go back to the past like oh it'd be so. great. It's like yeah it's been you be.

like this smells gross. You know, because I've done a lot of work like in. um in French history, too, and like in. the Louvre, which used to be like the a. palace of the king, you know, they would. talk about this is up through like the. 15600s, just like princes and nobles, like if they had to go to the bathroom, they would just literally go pee in the. corner of a room. This is what they were. doing. No way. And and this is some this. is something that is really SIG app or. whatever. Yeah. Like, okay. Um because. we've we've gotten very used today to. the the glories of of indoor plumbing.

and what it can do for us. Um it's kind. of cool though to just be like uh keep. talking. You just turn your back and. just piss the other way or somebody. comes by with a little piss head and you. piss in there and they run off with it. or or whatever. I don't even know what. they would do with it. Would they. recycle the urine at all? Did they need. like fluids that bad back then? So, not. fluids, but what they did need was like. the um like the the chemicals that are. in human urine, like to actually this. ties directly into your point of like.

how did they do laundry? Um those. chemicals that could be extracted from. human urine was great for washing. clothes. Yeah. This is um really Romans. clean their clothes using a mixture of. water, alkali, often urine, and fuller's. earth. The urine provided ammonia, a. natural detergent. There you go. While. the Fuller's earth acted as an abrasive. to remove dirt, the process involved. washing the clothes in vats, often with. the fullers or their slaves treading on. them to agitate the clothes. After.

washing, the clothes were rinsed and. dried. That's kind of crazy to think. that you would use urine and earth. to clean something. And who figured that. one out? Some there's, you know, it's like. there's like the thing, the bravest man. who ever lived was the first person to. eat an oyster. Yeah. You know, there's. like there there's those little things. It's like, okay, there was a guy who. figured out that if you peed on clothes, you could get them clean. Yeah. Who was. that guy? What was that guy's story? Cuz. we have no idea who it was. Yeah. And it.

would be Yeah. It'd be tough to convince. somebody that today. Um what were their. news sources like? How did they get. information? So information is going to be passed. through like traders. Okay? So that's. one way that you're going to find out. what is happening throughout the world. And so like obviously if you live in a. port of some kind, you're going to be. more hip to like what's going on in. Egypt or North Africa than if you're.

just like somebody who's living on some. uh living in some little village in the. interior of Gaul, which you have no idea. what's going on. Yeah. Um, the Romans do. develop an incredibly extensive network. of roads, like an insanely extensive. network of roads. This is like one of. also their greatest accomplishments. And. a lot of these Roman roads like. basically still exist. And a lot of what. we use today are, you know, the this is. where the Roman road used to be. And so, especially among the upper classes, there's extensive correspondence that is.

going on between people in the upper. classes. And like if somebody goes off. to a posting someplace, they're they're. writing back. There's there's exchanges. of letters and and um and correspondence. that is happening all the time and then. the government itself has agents and. then ultimately like bureaucrats who are. producing material and sending it back. to the center and passing information. amongst each other and all of that is. being done you know via these road. networks or like you know people people. who are traveling from here to there. like like tell you oh well this is what.

was happening down there and then this. was happening down there. Would they. spread misinformation too? Would they. send false information out? Like was. that a thing then? Oh, I'm sure. Like I. mean not on not on the regular. Um. definitely. Is there bad information? Yeah, cuz it's like a telephone game, right? And by the time you get to the. other side, you're like monkey banana. raffle. That does not mean anything to. me. And it started out with like there's. a war in Egypt and it's like by the time. it gets to Gall it's like monkey banana. raffle. I do not know what that means, sir. Um, but yeah, I mean they they were.

they were int when you were engaged in a. war, they were definitely intelligent. enough, you know, I can't think of any. anecdotes right off the top of my head, but like to try to trick people into. thinking things. And, you know, like the. the sort of like the hidden army trick. is always a thing. Um, you know, Hannibal managed to slip Hannibal. managed to slip uh the the Romans at one. point in the Second Punic War by like. tying torches to to some oxen and. sending them off in the middle of the. night. And then the Romans were like, "Oh, the the army's leaving." And then, you know, it's just a bunch of auction. In the Roman Empire, Octaven used coins.

as a tool for spreading fake news. He. had slogans and messages printed on them. to discredit his political opponent, Marcus Anthony. This strategy of using. easily distributed small items like. coins to spread political messages is an. early example of using medium for. propaganda. Just like you said earlier, the coins, how that was such a big. thing. Exactly. And to think, oh, nobody. would take a coin and make it fake to. create a bad message. And that guy did. Absolutely. Yeah. And and I mean and. what Octavian was doing just then is. making Mark Anthony out to be no longer. a true Roman because at this point.

Anthony has gone east and he's now. hooked up with Cleopatra and the Ro and. the Romans had this like very. uh sort of like I would not standoffish. attitude towards the east but they were. very much like oh that's the like a feat. like effeminite you know this like. orientalized. part of you know they're just into. luxury and and and old the old Roman. conservative guard was always trying to. like protect Rome from like these. Eastern ideals. Um, this is sort of like. what's rattling around in their heads. And Octavian uses this to great.

advantage because he starts painting. Mark Anthony as somebody who is no. longer truly a Roman. He's now he's been. he's been easternized. He's been. orientalized. He's gone native over. there with Cleopatra. Um, you know, which was a little bit true. So. propaganda was there was propaganda then. for sure. Oh, propag propaganda is. relentless. Yeah, of course. Um, were. they, you know, I'm sure they were. probably doing the equivalent of. photoshopping stuff, too. Did regular. people live in fear at the time? Did. they? Because if you were just a. peasant, as a regular person, was a lot.

of your life dictated by what your go. not I guess. Yeah. Your what your. government chose kind of for you? A lot. of people who are just living their. lives don't encounter the government at. all. Right? Like when we think about. especially like the high empire, the the. interaction between even the imperial. bureaucracy, let alone the emperor. themselves and really like these peasant. communities in Spain or in Gaul or in.

Syria or whatever, almost certainly. you're not encountering the Romans and. and Roman bureaucratic administrative. anything at all. You're you're going to. encounter your local elites because. they're going to come around and ask you. for taxes. And that's like that's the. main thing is like are you paying your. taxes? Are the taxes of your community. being generated? Most of that work. though was being done either by private. contractors which they had an extensive. private contracting operation to do tax. uh to do tax collection uh or it was the. local elites like uh who are doing this.

So mostly you are just going about your. own daily life. You you're not really. thinking about the wider world at all. um you're certainly not encountering the. Romans in any real way. And when we talk. about sort of the tyrannical emperors, like the worst emperors like Nero and. Caligula, um and we hear these stories. about how horrible they were to people, all of that was being done to the. senatorial class, right? The senatorial. class were the people who were actually.

in the orbit of the emperor such that. the emperor and the emperor's power. could touch them immediately. you could. be arrested and you could be executed by. a mad emperor at like at any time. But. that's not happening to peasants down. It it was not about like the oppression. of the people. And in fact, if if you. want to if we if we really went back. through it and really started doing like. revisions of what we think about things, there's definitely a revisionist case to. be made for Caligula. There's a. revisionist case to be made for Nero. that they were actually, if you talk to.

regular people, they were like, "We we. loved him. That guy was great. Um he he. looked out for us. He he gave us money. The only people who don't like him are. the senators because he's abusing the. senators. But who writes the history? The senators. The senators write the. history. And so now we we hear all the. bad things about these guys because they. were mostly bad to the senatorial class. You know, maybe they get into the. equites a little bit. But I still love. that the effects of things fell on. the higher ups. Like even the higher.

ups, like you're saying, had to go out. and fight the battles. like still cuz it. seems like now more the effects of. things, right? Because it's so. capitalistic now that the effects of. things fall on the lower class, but even. then the effects of things fell on the. higher class. What were things that Nero. and and Caligula were accused of for. being bad? Oh, well, I mean, a lot of it. is sort of arbitrary arrest and. execution. That's always going to be a. fear. That's that's bad. Um just. arresting people for no reason or. whatever and having them killed type of. thing. Yeah. and and you know uh or for. bad information. Se seizing you know.

seizing property is a big one. Um and. then you know it's sort of like there's. always this they they're living too. luxuriously. They're like they're all. they're doing is throwing parties and. not actually paying attention to uh to. state craft and this you know and you. know that's a that's a you know that's a. fair hit on Nero. Nero Nero wanted to be. a musician and an actor. He did not want. to be like an emperor necessarily. Like. his passion was was the liar. Yeah. It's. hard to go to open mic night when you're. the emperor. Yeah. Yeah. But that but he.

kind of did. And it was very. embarrassing to uh to the Roman. aristocracy that he would he would. debase himself and give these. performances because in Roman society. the absol. counting the slaves um but the absolute. lowest rung on in the Roman social order. was like actors and musicians. Really? They were the lowest of the low and like. be and like being caught around and and. of course and people would slum it like. of course they would you'd go down and. you'd slum it and you'd hang out with.

these people and Sulla very famously. like spent a lot of time slumbing it. with actors but this is like a. disreputable thing really for them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Big time. And and this. is again one of those things that's like. it's completely flipped because now. musicians and actors are, you know, that's that's that's S tier level. celebrity for us. But for them it was. like no you these this is the scum of. the earth. You got to keep these people. separate. Why was it looked at so. poorly? You feel like I don't actually. know. It was just like it it's certainly.

it's not productive in any way, you. know? Well, it's not real probably for. one. It's like they're. pantomimeing things. They're reenacting. things. I bet it probably didn't have as. much value at a time when it was like, you know, we we want the real, you know, you know, the gra there's no real. gravitas here, maybe. Yeah. But at the. same time, like there's theaters. everywhere that like theaters are like. are like the thing that we have a lot of. the time that is like left over. So like. they cared about drama. They cared about.

performance. They just like on the on on. a social level. They were just treated. as really really second rate secondass. And so for somebody like Nero to be. doing these things is really like oh my. god that is not what we want him to do. So this is so this is Nero. But the. people probably thought he was pretty. relatable. Yeah. Well and he also you. know he also spread the money around. right and he was he was good at that. So, this is him, you know, playing the. liar when Rome burns. Uh, like this is. not true. Like, he didn't actually do.

this. Uh, and I think, you know, it's. it's been it's been a minute since I've. gone through the exact details of this, but Nero definitely was trying to. organize uh fire relief in Rome when. because the fire is real like like Rome. Rome Rome would burn periodically like. but the Rome was burning. You always. hear that term, right? Rome was burning. Yeah, Rome burned a lot. It's, you know, wood wood burns and they don't exactly. have fire codes at the time. And so, you. know, any little thing could could set.

off a blaze and and portions of the city. would burn. And in fact, like if you. look at the the um sort of the buildings. that they would live in because they did. have kind of like tenement buildings a. lot of the time. What does tenement. mean? Uh just you know just like a. multi-story housing unit. Okay. Right. In inside the city itself. Um, and these. days the where where do the rich people. live in in a building? They live. upstairs. They live upstairs. They live. in the penthouse, right? Like that's. that's the best place you can be. Uh, during Roman times, that was the. absolute worst place you could be. And.

so if you if you had money, you were. living like on the ground floor. Why? Because if there was a fire, you could. get out. And if you're on the seventh. floor and a fire breaks out, I'm sorry, you're dead. Yeah. Dang. How did they. get up and down? Through stairs and. stuff. Mhm. Wow. Yeah. Stairs, ladders. And then there's like there's great. stories about um you know how how to. combat fires, right? And combating fires. was often sort of like private companies. like private basically like privately. organized things and and Craas who's you. know very famous in Roman history. He. was connected to Pompy the Great and.

Caesar in this thing called the the. triumvirate and they are a major force. in you know sort of collapsing the. republic and turning it into an empire. Each one of them thought they were using. the other two to advance their own. interest and then only and then Caesar. is the one who winds up uh getting. killed. It's like a Spider-Man meme kind. of like Exactly. Did Did you ever do. Game of Thrones? Yeah. Great. So there's. a part in Game of Thrones in the very. first season where that guy gets like. the molten gold like poured down his. Okay. So that's Craas. That's the death.

of Craas. That's where that comes from. Um and is that supposedly true? Yeah. Well, I mean, it's allegedly true. because he goes off and tries to conquer. uh Syria and winds up or he tries to. conquer Partha and winds up getting. caught and Craas was the richest man in. Rome. Right? This is the thing about. like Graas is one of the richest people. who ever lived. He acquired most of his, you know, real estate portfolio during a. thing called the Sullen prescriptions. when he was in charge of going around. and finding the enemies of Sullah and. killing them. And he would often find.

that the enemies of Solo were people who. had really nice estates that he would. like to own, right? And this is what he. would do. And once he's, you know, sort. of past that phase, he had a little fire. brigade and your house would be burning. down. And this fire brigade would come. around and say like, "Well, give us. money. We'll put it out. And if you. don't, then we won't." So like mafia. style. Yep. And there's definitely, you. know, stories that these fires were. being started on purpose. And then he. would send his little fire brigades in. Or he would say, um, sign over the deed.

to this place and we'll put the fire. out. Right? Then you can have your. stuff, but I'm gonna own the property. The flame mafia, right? And like this. and this is how this is how you get. rich. There there is I mean there is a. thing like no great for like all great. fortunes begin with a crime. And that's. I've largely found that to be true. I. think that that still is true today. Wow. That's wild, dude. In crass, that's. where we get the term crass from. That I. do not know actually. Where does that. come from? Crass. Because people say. that's so crass. Crass. The only true.

punk late 15th century in the sense. dense or coarse from Latin crass. Solid. or thick. Okay. I mean it comes from the. same word then. So probably maybe not. far off. Dent. Stupid. Stupid. insensitive blundering. I mean Yeah. Who. knows? But that's how he allegedly died. They poured that gold down him. Yeah. Cuz he was captured. Really? So what? Take me through that. What What was that. story? Oh, well, like I said, uh, if you. wanted to be a major political player in. Rome, you needed to win battles, right?

That was the currency. That was the. currency of the realm in terms of like. your political influence. Caesar had. gone off and conquered Gaul. You know, he did some light genocide along the. way, which is, you know, not so great. Yeah. But he was definitely winning. battles on behalf of Rome and conquering. territory for Rome. That makes him huge. Pompy the Great had a whole resume of. battles uh that he could point to and. say like I did this for Rome and that. for Rome. I conquered the pirates. I. conquered all this territory in the east. and that's why I'm Pompy the Great. And. Craas was rich and Craas wanted in on.

political power. Of course he did. uh. but he didn't really have a great. military victory to point to and say. this is what I've done because the when. he was console the war that he had to. fight was the war against Spartacus and. the slaves which is not the same as. going off and conquering you know some. some group of people far away like. you're just fighting slaves like is that. even really that big of a deal so if you. watch Spartacus right the movie. Spartacus like Crus Douglas yeah yeah so.

so crass is you know arg. Kurt Douglas Okay. Yeah. Kirk Douglas. Yeah. Um he's the main antagonist. Like. he's the one who's fighting against. Spartacus. And so that wasn't that great. of a moment. And uh so he's still. looking for he's triumph hunting. He's. still trying to figure out what he can. do. And so he he so he picks the. Parthans who are basically um the the. heirs of the Persian Empire who then. become the Casanis. This is now. basically like Iran who control things. all the way into Mesopotamia. And so.

Craas is going to try to go in and and. take Mesopotamia and conquer that for. the Romans. And he was led astray and he. made some mistakes and his legions were. defeated and he died. And then they tell. this story about having gold poured down. his throat, which to tie this all the. way back to what we were talking about. at the beginning and how Roman history. was morality tales more than it was like. a factual accounting of events. Look. what happened to the richest man in. Rome. Look at what happened to the man. who spent his entire life doing nothing.

but trying to acquire money. He died in. the desert having molten gold poured. down his throat, right? Which is like, could you be happier? Your life's over. Here you go. So, what's the lesson to be. learned from that? You know, maybe dial. back the greed a little bit and you. won't die like that. You'll die like. Caesar stabbed many times in the back by. your best friends, but still a little. more respected, but maybe a little more. of a respectable death. What inventions. or practices did they start in Rome that. we still have today? A lot of things.

that the Romans were doing, you know, are still around. Like they were they. were great at aqueduct. They were. brilliant at road building. I think like. Roman concrete is still like a legendary. um a legendary mixture for for keeping. things together. Um yeah, bring that up. about concrete in Rome. That's. fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Roman. concrete. Ancient Roman concrete. A. blend of volcanic ash, lime, and. aggregate was a remarkable building. material that enabled the construction. of massive enduring structures like the.

Pantheon and Colosseum. Its longevity. stems from the interaction of lime, volcanic ash, and seawater, which. promotes the growth of minerals like. toberite that seal cracks and strengthen. the concrete. Modern concrete, in. contrast, often relies on Portland. cement, which is more prone to. degradation. Yeah. I mean, Roman. concrete was like better. than what we. have, bro. A couple grams out of that. And and so and so the Romans are like. brilliant engineers. Like brilliant. engineers. They're they're road. building. They're they're monumental.

building. Um and they take pride in it, too. Yeah. Very much so. And like um. through all they're maintaining the. roads through all of this. They're. maintaining these buildings through like. all of this. And and so a lot of civil. engineering going on. A lot of civil. engineering going on. Like a lot. and. building projects like this was another. way. um you know like I said like like. military victory is the main thing but. if you were an upand cominging. politician and you wanted to get your. name out there and you wanted people to. know who you were and the great thing. you were doing you would sponsor things.

you would sponsor games you would. sponsor um you would sponsor you know. like a like a like chariot races or you. could construct like a building and then. that building would have your name on it. the Aian way is called the Aion way. because a guy called Aion like started. its construction The Flaminian way is. called the Flaminian way because that. guy started construction of it. And so. it it was another way to to demonstrate. how rich, how important, how powerful. you were and how much you were committed. to improving the wellbeing of your.

society, like improving the society you. were living. And so to commission a. great work like this and then have it, you know, be carried out to the end. This is this is a way that you would. spread your own name. And now we've kind. of flipped it where they'll name a. street after you if they choose to kind. of, right? It's a it's an honor to have. something named after you as a but but. we definitely still have people, you. know, like if if you look at like. universities like where are they getting. their because if you call it the so and. so and so and so. or whatever Bill Gates. Exactly. And. that and that's it's exactly the same.

kind of vanity and namespreading that. the Romans Gulf of America. Yeah. Okay. Um, but you know, one of the other. interesting things about the Romans and. like the ancient world in general is. that we, you know, we have this very. sort of like technological progressive. mentality. Yes. Like like modern. society. I just interviewed Mark. Zuckerberg the other day. Okay, great. Like it was crazy. I'm like sitting in. front of literally and this is the I. felt like this an emperor. Okay. Well, that's what he would like you to think. He's really big on Roman history and I.

think he kind of thinks that he's. Augustus. He's got the haircut. He he's. done the reading. Like I know this about. Zuckerberg. It Oh, it was fascinating. I. mean, there's some little things you see. right now. You see like uh Bernie. Sanders is preaching against like these. oligarchs, you know, and you see um. Yeah. So, he's the Grock eye. And you. see like there's a lot of uh uh like. people that just have so much wealth and. a lot of it is in tech, you know, and I. believe that we've kind of become this. privatized communism, right? That's a.

thing that I believe. It's like a lot of. people are like, you know, I feel like. the government is, you know, it's almost, I'm not saying. it's disappearing, but people are having. to hire their own fire departments to. take care of their buildings now. It's. like it's getting more privatized than. it is public public. Yeah. Yeah. A lot. of our commitment to universal civic. values has declined. Has declined. And. if and if we can privatize it, we will. privatize it. And if we can turn this.

thing that used to be just a public. utility or a public good or a public. space and make it private and so that we. can make money off of it, we will. definitely do those things, right? And I. don't know if but it doesn't feel like. our government's doing any I mean. they're doing some stuff but it feels. like our it's all become privatized now. which is kind of crazy you know and. that's very scary. Um anyway, where. where are we at? Oh, but the point I was. going to make is that is that for the. last couple hundred years really coming. out of like the Enlightenment, we have a. very uh progressive mentality that that.

we want to improve things. We want to. reform things. We're we're having these. great technological breakthroughs and. like our society and our lives are. driven by rapid technological. progression. You know, we lived through, you know, like when I was born, there's. not really personal computers. They. don't even exist like you know, and then. personal computers come along. the. internet comes along and before that it. was TV and before that it was cars and. so you you know every generation is. living like a very different life. because of all this technological. progress and we just assume that's the.

way things are and like so but then you. go back to the Roman Empire and you go. back to the Roman world and yeah they. tinkered with stuff and they improved. things and you know they would do things. like you know make this better form of. concrete so I don't want to say that. they were not interested in like. invention or improvement. But they kind of fundamentally had like. a small C conservative approach to the. world that they wanted today to be like. yesterday and they wanted tomorrow to be. like today. They liked that stasis.

there. There's a stasis there that. that's what they were aiming for and. especially the political elite want. things to just, you know, just just. basically stay the same. And so they're. not really aggressively trying to, you. know, they didn't have like legions of. inventors, you know, they're not. constantly trying to like invent a new. way to do things the way that we, you. know, we've got, you know, scientists, we've got institutions, we've got people. who are constantly trying to make a. better world for us. Um, and the Romans, right? And at the cost though of a lot.

of stasis it feels like a lot of times. it's like things have become so you know. it feels I don't know at the cost of. almost homeostasis completely sometimes. because it feels like you're not human. sometimes. Sometimes like at a certain. point it's like how much technology I'm. good. Yeah. Yep. I I mean I I think. we're due for for a little bit of a. reset. You know, I would love to get. away from having a screen in my pocket. all the time. And it's annoying because, you know, like I've got kids and so like. I always have to have my phone on me.

because I could get a call from the. school like at any moment. Like I could. there's an emergency at any moment. And. so I got to have the thing that is like. my phone that's my communication device. with me. But then it's also like this. stupid thing that is just designed to be. addictive and the next thing you know. you're just staring at these screen. because they're like the most. fascinating thing that we can look at. with our eyeballs. And so what I want. there was there was this very uh now. we're really getting off on it, but. there was a very specific moment in like. cell phone technology where we had it. was kind of like the Blackberry T-Mobile.

sidekick. Exactly. Where we had Yeah. Where we've got cuz I want to be able to. text, you know, cuz I don't want to talk. to you on the phone a lot of the time. I. want to text with you. So So I need a. certy keyboard because I don't want to. do like the three tap to that we had to. do like in the late '9s and early. Insane. If you saw someone doing that. now, you would literally euthanize them. Yeah. that the he would drop him off on. the trash pile. 17year-olds, but it it. is kind of proof that like humans can. kind of get good at anything if it's. what they need to do. Like 17year-olds. in 2003 being able to run the little.

like ABC thing and just like fire off. text like I was never even that good at. it. But having so having the certy. keyboard, being able to make a phone, be. able being able to make a phone call, be. able to text, but then not have it be. like a screen that is my window into the. world. Yeah, that would that would. actually feel great. It really would. Yeah. I wonder if there's a point where. technology they don't even think it what. happened. I mean it I wonder if it's a. point where being human is just like ah. we're good. Mhm. It you know just like. it it go and then it just you know it's. like no we're it's a you know what I'm.

saying like at a certain point just. whatever's inside of us that wants to be. human has just been pushed too far. It. just the governor strikes and it just. comes back and we just pop back because. fundamentally we're human. And I I think. we're experiencing that some with AI. um. you know the the the the things that AI. is is putting out there. I mean, we're. looking at it now. God knows if that. stuff is even true because a lot of what. AI is spitting out is just like garbage. slop that's being fed off of its own. like pack of lies. Um or it's data but.

data can be manipulated. Yeah. Exactly. And but but being a human being and. encountering other human beings and. encountering the artistic work of other. human beings like there there is a. difference between a poem that is. written by AI and a poem that is written. by a person and we can we can feel that. and you know this like live like going. out and doing like live events and like. live music performances and and live. live comedic performances. There's. nothing like a room full of people who. are all participating in the same thing. together. That's really the essence of. the good stuff of life. And we've always.

been communal creatures. We've always. wanted to come together in these ways. And so I do think that those kinds of. direct human interactions like. inherently matter more to us. And we. will be more willing to [ __ ] But of. course, we're all addicted to it right. now, which is the problem. And addiction. is a hell of a drug. Yeah. [ __ ] Hell. yeah it is. I'm all so much addicted to. everything. But I'll probably okay. But. um speaking of communal things, tell me. take me into like the Kalist. Take me. into how we get into the Roman Empire.

How do you get into it? Like from the. from the republic. Oh, how do we get. into it? Oh, no. No. Like if if you're. in Germany, how do you get to the. republic? Well, you got to go through. the limester dramaticus. Probably got to. check in with a legionary and then they. let you cross and, you know, trade your. wares and then you go back and you pick. up some amber from proto Russians and. you bring that back. Almost exit term. Yeah. You know, yeah. Yeah. You stop off. at a brothel and it's great. Um, did. they have brothel then? Of course. Yeah. Brothel are everywhere. Always. Especially around legionary camps. Really? Of course. For the war? for just.

being a soldier. Um, and a lot of the. times it's, you know, were they cool or. what were they like? Do they have AC in. there? No AC, huh? Do they have AC in. the brothel? No, they they did not. It. was hot in there, but but they have a. cold guy to [ __ ] Well, they you know, but you know, their, you know, their. baths were incredible, you know. Yeah, sure. They And they they had like, you. know, Roman Roman baths had like a. aidarium and a frigidarium. And the. frigidarium is like the cold room and. the cold bath and you could go in there. and and cool off and they would do this. like the hot plunge and the cold plunge.

and you know they they had this all down. to a science man. That's one of them. Yeah, they they did understand they did. understand how to make a good bath. house. That is absolutely true. And were. the brothel hooked to the bath house a. lot of times? Uh I that I don't know. probably they were close to each other, you know, but I don't want somebody to. now send me an email and be like, "No, that's not actually where the brothel. was." Oh, people are sick. I hope that I. mean, I don't care. I mean, I Yeah, they. seem both seem pretty good. Um Oh, there.

you go. According to the AI, right? Who. know who knows if it's true? It's crazy, man. I thought about this. years ago. I thought people were like, "Well, people can make information. that's not true, right?" Mhm. But then I. thought, what if the paper. can adjust the information you put on. it? That's what I started to think, right? This is like about 3 years ago. I. started to say, well, at some point, but. the imagine if you wrote a letter to. somebody, but then the paper got to. determine what you actually said, right?

That's the kind of place I feel like. we're entering. Yep. Where it's like you. can say whatever you want. Yep. But now. the paper and whoever owns the paper. they can construct the ink to create. whatever the you're not allowed to say. but what can be said. Yeah. The the next. the information environment of the next. 10 15 20 years is going to be really. tough to navigate even for people who. are bright and who know what's going on. Um you know it's going to get tricky. It's going to get very tricky because. these AI machines are going to be.

feeding off of themselves and they are. going to be fed bad information that. they will then spit out in very. authoritative ways. And there are, you. know, this is going to trick human. consciousness into thinking that what. you're looking at is a true thing. It's. a true statement. It's already happening. heavily already. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. We. we all believe and and the thing is is. like, you know, I've been tricked by. things. I'm sure you've been tricked by. things and I'm I'm fairly conscious of. of like what I'm paying attention to and. and and how this is all being. manipulated. I'm not illiterate or. anything and I'll get tricked by a video. and then I'll be upset about it and now.

I'm animated about it and then somebody. like that's not even real. And then and. then we're stuck in this place where. it's like anything cool that you see, you know, on an Instagram reel or like. on a Tik Tok, you're like, "Okay, well. that's probably fake. You know, that. probably never happened. That probably. is fake. That probably never happened.". And now and now we're in a place where. we don't trust anything even real. things. And people are like, "No, this. really cool thing happened." It's like, "Yeah, probably not though." So that. where does that leave us right then? Not. not trusting anything or anyone for any. reason, but also believing everything.

for every reason. Like this is perfect. time for assimilation theory type of. idea. Perfect time to to talk to. historians. Kind of true. see if we. can't figure out how to pick our way. through this mess because we've gone. through stuff like this before and it's. like outside of my specific area of. expertise but like when the printing. press came along you know very similar. issues came out of the arrival of the. printing press where the Catholic Church. used to be able to control all. information and now suddenly kind of. anybody can print anything and um you.

know what's being put out there what. people are reading there was there was. no controls on it there was there was no. factchecking to any of this stuff and. that's a great point if something. printed on paper, you almost thought it. was true just because it was written. down. Sure. Yeah. If it if it's in a. book, it must be true. You know, that. that kind of mentality. And and we come. out of like the end of an era where. there is robust and extensive editorial. vetting of like a lot of things like. certainly in the newspaper. And like you. mean right now or earlier? earlier like. you know probably you know like through. the 20th century right there's there's.

robust checks and even though there's. like there's an elite ideological. consensus and like what is allowed to be. printed and what is not allowed to be. printed is a part of like a cold war. consensus like all this stuff. Um, but. you know, if you're reading it in the. newspaper, there's a very good chance. that it's true and it was fact checked. and there they have sources and now the. things that you fire up and read, no. idea where any of the stuff come. Who. knows where any of it and a lot of them. I notice are created just by some. automat like a bot or something. Like.

I'll see things of myself online with. quotes that I've never said. Sure. And. I'll see it shared thousands of times or. commented on and it's like I never said. that. You know, I'll see like news. articles that have been put together. It's all misinformation about a. celebrity or about a place um that you. could go visit or something and it's all. it's a complete lie. But you'll see it. has 30,000 views. Like what is that's. just crazy to think. Oh, I don't want to. forget what was did take me into the. coliseum. What was that like? Did people.

go to it? Was everyone allowed? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The coliseum is open. And. why did it happen? Why did they build a. coliseum? So, well, because they're Rome. and they are hugely wealthy and hugely. powerful and so they need to have the. biggest, you know, theater. So, like. Texas, we want to have the biggest. thing. Yeah. We want to we want to have. the biggest thing going like that's. that's what we want to have. Um the. coliseum is a is like a a later edition. Like it doesn't come until the imperial. times. Um in the 400s something was.

coliseum. No, no. The coliseum is you. know in the first century um is when. it's coming around. It's like Vespacian. um is the one who kind of kicks off that. project and then it takes many many. years uh to to get built. Vespacian also. famously um when he was collecting taxes. off of the urine that they would collect. and people were like that's a little. disrupt. Oh, they were collecting urine. when they're collecting urine so that. they could do all the um so they could. wash the clothes, right? And he would. collect a little tax on that and he. would get money and be like that's kind.

of a gross way to make money and he goes. money does not smell. Right. So and so. he also started construction of the uh. of the coliseum. But so they do this. So. in Roman society like these games right. gladatorial games um you know the. chariot races all of these things are. tied to religious ritual. Okay. It's. it's all a part of these religious. rituals and and performances that that. were integral parts of their society. And so a lot of these games are in honor. of this or that god, right? And we're. making sacrifices to the gods. That's.

sort of the origin point of all of this. stuff. Was that true? You think it was. just a selling point? Well, it start it. starts that way for sure. I think I. think it's it starts out as very much a. religious obligation and a religious. thing. And it turns into, you know, I do. think that there's probably just mere. lip like if you're if you're a spectator. like, you know, you're there to see the. action, right? They're they were sports. fans, right? We all, anybody who's a.

sports fan would fit right in in ancient. Rome because the Romans were nuts for. sports. They love gladatorial combat. They love chariot races. The best. gladiators were famous celebrities. The. best chariot racers were famous. celebrities. And as as you sort of go. forward and get over into the Byzantine. Empire, I mean, there were there were. waring political factions that were tied. to chariot teams, you know, like there. was a huge riot in Constantinople. between uh chariot teams that was very. politicized. So they took they took all.

this stuff like very very seriously and. throwing these games was a way to bring. people in and entertain them so that I. mean a little bit so that you know it's. the opiate of the masses kind of stuff. Um speaking as a sports fan who enjoys. sports I think that there's quite a bit. more going on inside of sports than just. like oh this is just a distraction by. the ruling class to trick you into not. paying attention to what's really going. on. It's like, no, I mean, feats of. athletic strength are like pretty sweet,

right? Like, yeah. Well, like watching. great athletes be great athletes is like. pretty cool, right? It's like the. pinnacle of what the human body can do. And I I love that stuff. And if if you. can get passionately committed to to. something that is happening down there, then I think that that's really fun, especially if you're doing it with like. your friends and neighbors and parts of. your community. I think sports is. actually a really cool, great part of. civic life. Yeah. And it's entertainment. as well. I mean, it's Yeah. You marvel. at some of them. you yourself maybe. played something at some point so you. can envision yourself or live.

vicariously through them. I mean, you. watch you watch a you watch some I mean, I'm not even like a football fan, but. you watch some wide receiver sprinting. down the line doing an overthe-shoulder. catch while tiptoeing both of his lines. like inbounds, making the catch like. like this stuff is like crazy and like. you watch it and you're like this is. just inherently cool. Like don't tell me. this is almost erotic too at times. I. mean they are fit aren't they? Yeah they. are. Um but so but so that kind of stuff.

like that kind of like you know en. enjoying sports in that way and. competition in that way um is a very is. a very human thing and the Romans were. huge huge for it. So that's where the. coliseum comes from. Is it true that the. animals would fight the people and. stuff? I mean this stuff gets into like. those were usually like I mean it's it's. overblown like when you see it in the. gladiator movies like certainly things. would go on but those were usually like. if if the exotic animals so like exotic. animals absolutely brought in to the mix. okay which you know showing off an.

exotic animal is both take a look at. this exotic animal isn't that cool but. also think about how much I had to do. how powerful and influential I needed to. be to bring elephants to you to bring. tigers to you like like this like aren't. you impressed with what I've been able. to do with showing off your wealth. Exactly. Like you're really showing it. off. So there but there would be hunts, right? And there would be like hunting. um sort of exhibitions like great uh you. know great archers taking they would go. out and and shoot tigers. That's that's.

usually at least my understanding of. what would go on and as opposed to send. a gladiator out there and have them. fight. But you know it definitely did. happen. Mhm. Um, how much of ancient. history from Rome is factual, do you. think, or how much was adjusted to make. things look a certain way? That's a, you. know, I don't know what percentage I. could give on things. Um, you know, how. much of it is true, like some of it for. sure because we can independently verify. it from inscriptions and from other sort.

of physical evidence. Um, but like I said at the beginning, what. what the Roman and Greek historians were. mostly interested in was was telling. these morality tales about how to live a. contemporaneous how how to live in. contemporary society rather than sort of. fidelity to the objective truth like. this is what really happened. Now that. said, they cared a lot about, you know, like they were looking through documents. the same way that historians do today.

Um, you know, Livby is or excuse me, like Palibius is is interviewing people. He's he's looking at documents and. they're trying to tell a correct story. I I think that they're gest they're. definitely trying to do it. But if the. if the sort of morality tale runs into. the facts, like which is going to win, they're going to massage it towards the. morality tale. And then you have to sit. down and you have to ask yourself, okay, well, well, what where did this person. come from? What is their own social. position? what is, you know, what is. their own family connections? There's a,

for some reason, we keep going back to. Libby because he's just apparently on. the forefront of my mind. But there's a. description of the battle of Ka, which. is can c a n. Okay. And this is one of the greatest. defeats in Roman history. This is. Hannibal is defeating the Romans. He. just absolutely wipes him out. This is. during the second Punic War. And the. story that Libby tells is about one. particular Roman console who was.

basically an idiot and caused all of. this to happen. Right? The one console. did not want to go into battle. The. other console did want to go into. battle. And they they alternated days of. who was in charge. Right? So it's like. you I'm in charge on Monday, you're in. charge on Tuesday, I'm in charge on. Wednesday. And so the guy Yeah. So the. guy who was in charge on Wednesday was. like we're going into battle. And you. couldn't argue with him because he was. the console and he was in charge that. day. And uh and then they get wiped out. by Hannibal. And then you go look into. Livy's past and his own family tree and.

you find out that he's maybe trying to. make one of his ancestors look better. than they actually were. So this is a. this and this is actually like if you. lean into it, this is one of the it is a. fun part of sort of deconstructing and. decoding these things. If you really get. into it, this stuff is fun. It's kind of. it's it's entertaining and it's. interesting. You have to examine the. author and some of his motivations and. how much would he be willing to adjust. things and possibly why. And then you. have to put that on the same scale on. the other side of the scale of the facts. and information that you do have. the.

the book that I'm writing right now. which is about the crisis of the third. century has like a missing battle that. we have to contend with where there's. this huge inscription um of of these. great cissant kings this guy Sharpur and. and Artichir who have this like huge. monuments that were built to them and. then on the side of these cliffs they. etched in huge letters like basically. their resume all their accomplishments. all the things that they did and one of. the things references this battle where. they defeated the Roman Romans and then.

you go look through the Roman historical. record and it's patchy at the time, right? This is one of the things about. the crisis of the 3rd century is we. don't have a ton of information because. it was so chaotic and but we don't have. any reference to this battle and and. they're specifically referencing like. which emperor was defeated. So it's like. who's lying? Are the Romans trying to. cover up a defeat by not mentioning it? Or is this did this guy just make up a. battle to tell his own people, look, I. defeated the Romans this time, too, and.

he did beat the Romans many times? Wow. Like we just we don't and the thing is. we don't know. We absent a time machine, there's there's ambiguity in the. historical record at all times. And this. is, you know, again, like when you. become a real sicko for history, you. stop needing history to be just an. objective set of events. Like just tell. me what happened is is something that. like take out your ideological biases. like take this like just tell me the.

facts. That never happens. And it can. never happen because humans are always. going to be writing in their own. subconscious biases. When we pick and. choose what information to share, when. we pick and choose how to frame a. certain event, nobody can ever just sit. down. Even me, like, and as I'm just. trying to tell you the facts of Roman. history, of course my little biases are. coming into it. Um, of course my. opinions are coming into it. There's no. there's no sort of escaping that. And. once you understand that it's. inescapable, then it just becomes a.

layer to have an even greater. understanding of the human condition and. human society, which is I think what. we're really after when we study. history. Oh yeah, that's fascinating. I. was going to ask you kind of what makes. a good historian, but obviously one of. the things is being able to recognize. that you're not going to be able to get. something absolute because it's kind of. impossible. Yeah. And and at the end of. the day, it's impossible. Now, leading. up to that, like what makes a good. historian? Yeah. Fidelity to the facts, fidelity to the sources. Like, don't say.

something if you don't have a source. backing it up. Go to the primary. sources, read those primary sources, try. to present those sources in as accurate. a way as possible. And so, it's. absolutely not the case that. professional historians are just running. around out there only publishing their. biases, right? Only doing things in the. service of their own political or social. beliefs. Most historians most of the. time are trying to do that project of. like I just wanna I want to examine. this. I want to examine the evidence and.

I want to talk about it. Um it's just. that the it's an impossible dream. But. moving towards that dream uh in a in a. way that is rooted in the facts is. really important and that does make a. good historian for sure. Yeah, we. certainly got off that path in the past. 20 years where it's like um it felt like. news outlets had it used to feel like it. was real information and it was factual. and it wasn't biased and then they they. went down this other road it felt like. you know um but then it's always been.

like can you trust your government? Can. you trust the reporting? Can you trust. these you know the councils that are. running things? You know who can you. trust? you know, and that's it feels it. seems like from listening to you that. it's that's kind of it's always been. some version of that since the. beginning. Um. certainly through uh through Roman times. when you know you you always hear people. say now well um we're going to fall, Rome fell. Uh the society American.

society will fall. Um, what comparisons. do you see between the two? Or what or. is there any like footprints in the sand. that you can f that you can follow to. see a path to see like a a a story arc. of how societies fall? Do we like are we. parallel enough to Rome to even have the. same trajectory as them? What do you. think about some of that? There there is. I mean like we it's like both.

simultaneously right because on the one. hand all civilizations and all societies. are unique unto themselves and it's not. the case that we just are reliving some. thing over and over again that there. there actually is like a a cycle to. these things that is objectively true. and and we're just sort of bit players. in a in a in a historical a historical. force that's beyond our control. Um but. also we are humans who have come.

together and humans are often behave in. very similar ways and respond to certain. things in very similar ways. And yeah I. mean Rome is a huge civilization that we. see the entire course of it from from. its founding to its growth to its peak. to its decline to its fall. Was it even. a fall? Was it merely a transformation? It's probably just a transformation. Calling it a fall is probably too. dramatic. And of course the Eastern. Empire is going to keep going for. another thousand years. And like, is. America gonna fall the way that Rome. did? Um, well, number one, the United.

States of America is going to go away. eventually. There's no timeline that you. can extend out far enough that does not. involve the United States eventually. disappearing from the face of the earth. That's just what going to happen. Really? What makes you say that? Well, we're not going to last for 10,000. years. We're not going to last for a. million years. The United States will. eventually not be a thing anymore. I'm. not saying it's going to happen 20 years. from now or 100 years from now. Million. years from now, are we here? No. Dang. No, of course not. Of course we're not. here. What's going to happen? So, live. it up. Yeah, live it up cuz we're not. going to be here in a million years. So,

you may may as well get your kicks in. now. Red, white, and blue. Exactly. And so um. but like we talked about at the very. beginning, you know, our society is. rooted in Roman history like and a lot. of the things that stamps are political, our economic, our legal and social. culture like comes from Rome, comes from. the Roman experience. And so it's not. outside I don't think it's out of bounds. to say like yeah like there's probably.

going to be some some similarities into. how these things progress, how great. empires rise and fall. like we've seen. this happen before. Um, so where are we. in the Roman timeline, right? Like are. we at the end? Are the barbarians at the. gate? You know, is is America about to. fall? Um, I certainly don't think so. You know, that's that's not my opinion. at all. I don't think we're anywhere. close to the end of this. And I. certainly don't think that like uh poor. people coming from Guatemala or El. Salvador are like literally the Goths,

which is, you know, how they're often. portrayed in in media. either like, oh, you know, the Roman Empire fell because. of immigration. Um, now the Roman. Empire, number one, didn't really fall. because of immigration, and number two, like trying to make the Huns or the. Goths analogous to, you know, the kinds. of people who are moving to the United. States today is like wildly. it's like insanely uh inaccurate. Yeah. I don't know if I ever would think that. the problem is at the everyday man.

level. To me the problem is at the top. you know the problem is at the in that. upper aura you know I think that you. we've started to fall apart of having a. purpose and feel a connection to our. country and I don't know why I mean. there's a ton of different reasons for. that and there could be different. reasons for people that have even. different political beliefs or different. ideologies um but it certainly used to. feel like we were all Americans and now. it still feels like we're all Americans. but people have a lot of different. thoughts about it Yeah. And so I don't.

know how that kind of permeates as well. so like when I look back on this and. actually my first book which is called. the storm before the storm the beginning. of the end of the Roman Republic um is. about the decline and fall of the. republic not the whole empire. Right? So. that was when the republic turned into. the Roman Empire when the ro when the. republic becomes an empire. And what I. and what I was curious about is when. Caesar comes along and Craas and Pompy. come along and effectively destroy the.

republic and then goes to Octavian and. Anthony and Octaven wins that battle. Like what was going on 50 years before. that, 80 years before that that sort of. starts knocking out the foundations of. Republican society? The the Roman. Republic lasted for 500 years. They went. through a lot. They went through huge. wars. They went through huge upheavalss. There was, you know, there was ambitious. men coming and going left and right for. hundreds of years and the republic. continued to persist. There was a. Senate, there was assemblies, there, you.

know, this Republican project continued. Um, so what is it that started to go. wrong prior to the collapse of the. republic and and then it turns into this. authoritarian military dictatorship. That's what the Roman Empire was. The. Roman Empire becomes an authoritarian. military dictatorship after the fall of. the republic. what Octaven did when he becomes. Augustus which is like you know he's the. first emperor of Rome though he doesn't. say like I'm an authoritarian dictator. now he doesn't say like I am now you. know the emperor he they even call.

themselves emperors that's just. something historians call them to. describe the person who had all of the. sort of powers of the republic they were. simultaneously a tribune and a console. and a proconole and an e dial they had. they they themselves had they were the. pontiff effects maximus. They were the. head of of sort of the Roman the Roman. religion. So they were the Senate. They. were the um uh representatives. They. were every they were the Senate. They. were the Congress. They were the Yeah.

It's it's it's as if one person was. president and speaker of the House and. majority leader of the Senate and ruler. of the milary and the and oh of course. commander-in-chief. Of course. commander-in-chief of the military. Four-star general. Um and fivestar chef. even. No. No. They pay for the fivestar. chefs. They they don't cook for. themselves. and then also like governor. of 25 of the 50 states. Wow. Right. That's what Augustus did. Augustus did. this like power sharing thing with the. Senate when he was trying to settle. things afterwards. And he's like, "Okay, we'll divvy up the provinces. You can.

run half of them. I'll run half of. them." Um, every province that Augustus. had were the provinces with armies and. all the provinces the Senate was allowed. to govern were the provinces that did. not have armies. So, you know, like. who's actually in power here? But, you. know, the stuff that went on prior to. the collapse of the republic is the. stuff that when I look around in. contemporary American society, like you. know, I wrote that book because I was. like, I sure see a lot of echoes here,

you know, like is it is it going to. proceed exactly the same? No. But, you. know, can history rhyme? Yeah, I think. history can rhyme a little bit. And. there there's a quote from Plutarch that. I use in my book that's just like if you. know if if the stuff if if the sort of. the constituent parts of a historical. moment are the same here and the same. there, it's not unreasonable to think. that like the outcome will be the same. or at least very similar. And if we're. studying history, there is a point at.

which like what is the purpose of. studying history? It's a little bit to. learn what happened before, what. mistakes were made, what you know, how. events unfolded so that we can like. maybe do it better. Well, for surely. it's like why it's like re-watching a. football game. It's like why you ran. these plays, you ran these plays, then. this happened and then this happened. Let's never let's never run that play. again. And then we don't do that again. And then over time, you have tons of. games. You're like, okay, these are the. plays. And then you be able to build up. statistics. So, at a certain point, yes, you could. I mean, I'm surprised it's.

not on DraftKings yet whether or not. there will be a, you know, a a spread on. on the fall of America. What were some. of the early things that you noticed? Um, well, one of the biggest is there. was runaway economic inequality um that. was happening where, you know, like we. talked about how you had to like have a. certain amount of property in order to. join the legions. And when they got into. these like protracted wars, people would. be brought into the legions. they would. have to go off and fight in Spain for. like 5 years and while they were gone.

their their little plot of land back in. Italy would fall into disrepair and you. wouldn't really be able to make it. productive. Maybe you'd be down on your. luck financially and you would sell it. off to your rich neighbor and the. richest component of Rome, the senators, there had always been stratification in. the wealth. There had always been rich, there had always been poor but the rich. started becoming like super rich during. the Roman Empire during the Roman. Republic. the later the later days of. the Roman Republic. That's what you're. talking about. Yeah, you said that is. when you start getting these large.

estates like insanely large estates as. opposed to merely big estates that were. surrounded by people families who had. their own individual plots. And the the. basically the small holders of Italy are. like pushed out of uh of the picture. They kind of don't exist anymore in. Roman history. And so there is that. there's an economic inequality that is. unfolding at the time uh that puts. stress on the society because now they. can't uh recruit for the legions for one. thing. Um because you can't recruit for.

the legions because they don't respect. you anymore because they don't meet the. property qualifications anymore. That's. right. So then what you got to do is you. got to lift the property requirements. and say okay now we can recruit anybody. and they will be paid and who's going to. pay them? that they're going to be paid. by the person who's organizing that. legion. Where's that money going to come. from? It's probably going to come from. them conquering something or defeating. something and getting the spoils of war. So now we're going off and we are. conquering things not just for political. reasons, but also to sort of enrich the. army. And then this is where you get.

personalist armies where the legions. aren't fighting for Rome. They are. fighting for Caesar, for Marius, for. Salah. I'm I'm I'm here to fight for. Salah. That's who I'm fighting for. And. so that has a major effect on the. internal coherence of the Roman. Republic. I don't know if we're there. like in a in a war sense, but we're. there in a uh we're there in a um. capitalistic sense, it feels like. Yeah. And I mean, one of the things that gives.

me some hope is that one of the things. that Augustus did during during his. settlements to kind of because the. Romans lived through like a 50-year. period of non-stop civil war. And one of. the things that Augustus did accomplish. was like ending those civil wars. And. one of the things that he did was he. regularized the pay of the legions. He. he put out these mints. You were paid by. the central state. You were no longer. getting your money from your local. commander. You were getting it from the. central state. So like a UBI kind of. Mhm. Well, and it's basically like what.

we have in the military today. And one. of the reasons we don't have to worry. about the army or the navy or the. marines like hauling off and following. some general uh or some political leader. as opposed to like sticking to the. constitution is because their paycheck. is coming from the centralized political. authority not from somebody else. And so. dismantling that, creating private. armies of mercenaries, like that's when. it starts to get a little sticky. And I.

don't think you they would even let you. do that in America. Oh, I mean, you. know, like there's there's the Eric. Princes of the world, like things could. happen. Yeah. But it's but it's. definitely not at the scale that where. where it's uh popularly known. Yeah. And. then there like there's this other sort. of thing. That's a good point. I'm sure. there are people there's very wealthy. people that have their own small. military. Definitely. But not like but. nothing that can take the 82nd Airborne. Right. Right. Exactly. And that's the. thing is you would have armies that. could take the 82nd Airborne. And then, you know, to tie it later to like the.

like the immigration issue, the the. reason why the Goths and the Huns were. such a powerful force in in in smashing. the Empire is because they could take. the 82nd Airborne. They were strong. enough and big enough and wellarmed. enough. There's nothing that can touch. the United States military right now. There's nothing on earth that can touch. us. Not really. Unless the people in it. who were fighting for it started to. realize that they were being you if they. decided that they were being used for. practices that weren't good for the. country, right? But were just good for a.

select few. Is that right, you think? Or. how would that happen? Well, I've. thought about this. Okay. You know, and. it's weird to say it because I have a. lot of friends in the mil, but you start. to think, well, how does a military get. compromised? How do they choose to. become uh like um the people in uh what. was that movie with? Oh, in the Patriot, right? How do they you know what I'm. saying? Like how do they decide that the. who they're fighting for isn't who they. thought they were fighting for? Yeah.

And that's you know that's the plight of. grunts throughout time and history, right? You are ultimately just following. orders and you have to go do it. Um, and. can you have a large enough mutiny to. overthrow a government because you don't. like how you're being used anymore? It's. happened. It's largely the story of the. Russian Revolution. You know, those guys. were being so badly mistreated that the. army mutinied and winds up overthrowing. the Zar. That's definitely that's. definitely a major constituent part of.

the story of the Russian Revolution. Um. but like so what was one of the other uh. there is this sort of overarching notion. that the Romans themselves often pointed. to is that they had been engaged in this. long struggle with Carthage as this. great rival in the western. Mediterranean. This is where the war. against Hannibal comes. um these this is. a series of wars against Carthage where. Rome and Carthage are are kind of equal. going into it and whoever wins this war.

is going to be the dominant power in the. western Mediterranean and then. ultimately like the entire. Mediterranean. So who wins this war is. really important and the Romans win the. war after 100 years 130 years is is how. long these things go on. there was but. between the first between the first. battle and the last battle I think it's. like 100 three generations four. generations maybe it's like 110 years I. don't want to exaggerate um but once the. Romans sort of lose that great unifying. enemy you start getting political.

rivalries inside the senatorial class. breaking out beyond the bounds of what. used to be acceptable practices. There used to be a really strong elite. consensus and they did stick together at. all times and there were there were. things that you didn't do or wouldn't do. even if you like even if you lost a. console ship and you were pissed about. it because I hate that family over. there. Like you did not break the code. of conduct. You didn't break the code of.

conduct. You didn't go get an army and. then like overthrow that person because. you're pissed off that you lost an. election. You just simply wasn't done. after the Punic Wars are over, this is. when we it's like this is when it starts. happening. You know, it's and it's like. the the internal cohesion of the of the. elite ruling class breaks down and then. they start seeing their own political. ambitions as something that don't really. need to have a check because I'm not. worried about being defeat. We're not. worried about being defeated by some. foreign enemy. So, I'm just going to.

keep going. Like, we can we can have a. civil war. It doesn't matter because we. don't have to worry about Carthage. And. so if you're doing this sort of like. let's unfocus our eyes and and look at. sort of the beats of history. Okay. So. what what purpose is the Cold War. serving for the United States of America. through all of this? Is it a unifying. force that that enforces elite consensus. and keeps things in bounds? Yeah. Yeah, it sure does. And when we lose the. communists as a unifying force that. keeps the political class together, is.

that when we start seeing as early as. the '9s great frayings in in that fabric. and people being willing to do things. that are way outside the bounds of what. would have even been considered possible. 10 years earlier, 20 years earlier. because we don't have to worry about the. communists anymore. We won. You know, everything is great from here. And kind. of ever since then there's been vague. attempts to like who who's going to be. the new enemy that that unifies us and. nothing has really done it the way that. that the Cold War did. You know ter. terrorist like you know it was. terrorists for a while but that never.

really did it. Um you know people try to. demonize China and try to turn them into. something but it it it doesn't take the. same way because it's not really the. same thing. So, you know, you lose that. external threat and now you start having. the political ruling class being willing. to turn on each other. And yeah, the the. political the political environment. right now is absolutely toxic. Absolutely toxic. Yeah. And it's because. people I don't think are afraid of the. consequences of pushing things all the.

way to civil war. Yeah. I think some people you start to. feel like what I say doesn't matter. what I feel doesn't matter. I don't even. know if my vote counts because we don't. even know if they're being tabulated. fairly or not. I mean, you just don't. know, you know, and there's so much. misinformation. You don't know. Um. there's never been such wealth in the. power of such few. Um and you start to. feel like I mean, we talk all the time. on here about we just had Mike Row on.

were talking about um having purpose, like having a job, what it means to you. to have a job and to do something and to. make something and to be a part of. something. And once you don't have a. purpose anymore, you'll kind of fall for. you'll find anything. You'll find you'll. find a purpose. Yep. It just sometimes. can be kind of on the darker side of. things. But I think in the end, it's for. some sort of form of self-preservation. Um so I don't know what that looks like. I wonder if there would be a civil war. Where do we meet up if there is? That's. my big question. Where do we meet up?

Like you and me. I mean, I'm Oh, man. Where's a good place to meet up? I think. Denver. Denver. Okay. Should we should. go Should we go to the Rockies? Here's. the thing. You've already said you got. to get a place with some Yeah, you got. you got you got you got to get some You. got to get some elevation. Absolutely. I. just don't want it to come that day and. it hits, you know, say it hits on a. Thursday night and you've already had a. long week. You're like, "Fuck." You. know, cuz you had the weekend off or. whatever, but now you have to do Civil. War or whatever. And then you're like, where do I go? I do not want that.

because you're not going to be able to. text and find out. No, it's No, it'll if. it comes it'll be a huge mess. And civil. wars are like the worst just the worst. thing. They're just the worst thing. Even if nobody wants to do, you know, even if they're fought for a good. reason, right? Like you're only. destroying yourself. You're only. destroying your own infrastructure. It's. on your own front yard a lot of times. Yeah. the the English civil wars which. happened you know uh this like Cromwell.

era like Steuart England you know they. they called those civil wars a war. without an enemy you know like because. that's that's a lot of of what it is and. so we should de we should definitely try. to avoid civil war but also also there. are things that you know if things get. pushed too far and we're also we're. allowed to have values we're allowed to. care about things and if literally every. single thing that you believe in has to. be sacri sacrifice to avoid a civil war, right? Like everything I believe in will.

no longer exist, but at least we won't. have a civil war. Is that civil war. worse than fighting for the things that. you believe in? I think at a certain. point you choose to fight. I feel like I. think so, too. You know, I really. believe that. And I'm saying that as. somebody who like I've studied civil. wars. I don't want any part of a civil. war. And I don't like people who play. fast and loose with talking about civil. wars. I don't I don't like people who. who romanticize it. I don't like people. who talk about it because it is an awful. awful awful thing. Sometimes though you.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's just a it's a. think it's a thought of like, well, how. did that happen? Right. Cuz I'm sure if. you'd asked people 100 years earlier, that would never happen. Right. And how. do you get to things like that? And then. Yeah. I don't want to not have some. place to meet up. I do not want to not. have D. And look, I'll even do. we'll do Milwaukee, dude, if we want to. have two places to meet up because I got. I got some property out in rural. Wisconsin. Denver is far though for. everybody. Yeah. So, you don't want.

people having to go to freaking Trying. to think of one other spot. Well, I'll. tell I'll tell you this. Like, if. there's actually going to the the shape. of the Second American Civil War has. less to do with like territory in that. way, like this these states versus these. states. It's going to be very rural. versus urban and that's that's the one. of the main political divides I think. right now and so so cities are one thing. and sort of the surrounding environments. are a different thing and that will be. the shape of things there will be 50.

regional simultaneous conflicts between. people in the rural areas and people in. the cities and that's I think how it. would go. Dang. Mikey D. Which I don't I don't want any part I. don't want any part of that either. I. don't I I was I was just joking that I. was raising my son to be John Connor. Hey to like fight to fight AI when it. tries to take over. I'm just like why do.

you think I'm trying to teach you these. things, man? Anyway, let's go back to. lockpicking. John Connor for Columbus. We're going to call him dude. Somebody's. got to go into AI and save us. Yeah, I I. mean I showed him the Terminator movies. I'm like, "This is what we this is what. we got to avoid, man. That's what I'm. talking about." And it's it's up to you. cuz cuz I I can't do it. You know, where. will we find our allies at those times? If that were ever to happen, what do you. think people find an ally in the like. how do you how would you say this person. is my ally in a civil war? You think. there I mean there are ways to do it,

right? Like you're going to you're in an. area that has a lot of like-minded. people. We all have our own social. networks that already exist. Yeah. You. know, and like Yeah. I mean, my existing. social network, like I'm pretty sure. would all be on one side of a civil war. Um, and I and I would be on that same. side as them. And that's a lot of how, you know, people wind up joining these. things. They they join they join in. groups. They, you know, a lot of ci a. lot of companies are sort of like. self-raised from some local area. Um,

and so those kinds of things, it is that. kind of like personal trust that goes a. lot into it. But of course, it's also. difficult because there are people who. are intentionally trying to trick you. into thinking that they're on your side, but they're not really. And and then you. got to have internal secret police and. purges and executions, and now you're. living the worst life you can possibly. think of. So, let's just not do it, America. Let's just not do it. Okay, Mike. Okay, I hear you there. Great. Um, we'll have to talk about that another. time. We'll talk about some revolutions.

and things like that. I would love to. get into another conversation about it, man. Um, how did people say Rome fell, some people say it's just um kind of. it's kind of just took on different like. it became the Byzantine Empire. Some. people say different things, right? What. is kind of classified as the fall of. Rome? How did it fall hypothetically? Right. Yeah. I mean, if you if you buy. into the framing, it's a lot of the the. central state stops being able to draw. on the wealth of its own society. Um,

some of this is the result of civil wars. and ongoing civil wars. Um, some of it. is the result of migrations and. population pressures where the Romans. used to be very good at fighting wars. and battles beyond their own frontiers. They would expand, right? So, you're. never fighting on your own territory. You're fighting on their territory. Then. you're beating them and then you're. moving on to the next territory beyond. that. And by by the 3rd century and by. the fourth century, the Romans are. fighting wars on their own territory. And so you're not getting the spoils of.

war. You're not getting booty. You're. not getting you're getting spoiled. Even. if you win, you lose. Yep. Yep. That. things things are getting things are. getting trashed. And so there there is a. long-term degradation in sort of the. military and political and economic. strength of the empire such that on the. other side like on the other side of the. Rine and on the other side of the Danube. you have all these like Germanic tribes. who at one time were smaller and. disconnected. And so it was very easy.

for the Romans to do like divide and. conquer. Like we'll give this chief a. bunch of money and he will be our ally. and you'll be our representative there. and then these guys won't. But this guy. will always be our friend because he. knows that his local power is backed. entirely by Roman gold. So he's he's. with us and we can and the Romans could. keep these groups kind of disunited. This is classic divide and conquer. Eventually, those groups become larger. and larger and they form their own like. larger and larger confederation such. that they're able to um build up.

manpower, weaponry, strength that can go. toe-to-toe with the legions in a. straight fight. And then the Romans are. also saying to themselves, you know, we. don't have the manpower that we used to. have. And so if we want to win wars, we. need to kind of outsource some of our. fighting to these groups. And this. becomes an incredibly there's there's a. couple hundred years of incredibly. complicated political and military sort. of maneuverings between the Romans and.

these groups where you know all Alaric. and the Goths this is this is the people. who who sack Rome right which is sort of. one of the big moments that we point to. and say like gosh that was a big deal. Rome had not been sacked in like 800. years that was a big deal it's not the. case that this was uh all Alaric and the. Goths marauding into Italy and. mindlessly. destroying Rome and and looting it of. its wealth. Allaric had been off and on. allies and auxiliary and a general who.

commanded armies for Rome for like 20. years. You've been a contractor for a. long time, long time. Long time. And was. actually a vital component of the Roman. national security state, if you could. call it that, uh, at the time. And he. was just looking Allar the ambitious. All the ambitious. Is that his name? No. Is it? Is that what they call him? I. don't call him that. I call him Aleric. the Goth. But he was trying to get what. was owed to him by the emperors. They. had promised him. They had made promises.

to him. And what he and what he really. wanted was to be more formally. integrated into the society to not just. be a mere auxiliary, but to but to be. entered into um into the fabric of of. Roman society, which by this point. they're hiding in Ravena because it's. like behind a swamp and like Yeah. No, they didn't let him because of because. of prejudice, partly because of ethnic. prejudice against him. And he said, "Look, if you don't follow through on. your promises, you got nothing. protecting your most important city. I. can just do this if I want. Anytime I.

want, I can just go and do it. So follow. through on your promises to me and I. won't do it. It's pretty simple." They. didn't follow through on their promises, so he said, "Fine, I'll go do it. I. didn't want to, but I'm going to." So, so that sack is a very sort of. calculated political move on his part. So, that's and that's part of the story. about how Rome doesn't just fall. It's. like it's transforming into something. else. It's not just mindless barbarians. destroying civilized life, you know, like in that sense, I think that all.

Alaric was acting in a more civilized. way than the emperors in Revena were. acting because they were acting like. petulant little liars and all Alaric was. trying to do something. What is it? Is it greed that end up. hurting those? Yeah, greed. Greed, prejudice. Um, just sheer myopia, you. know, just what does myopia mean? Myopia. means an inability to see outside of. your own little narrow circumscribed. world. And by that point, like I said, like the political powers that be had. left Rome. like they like for a while.

Milan was was the capital of the empire. because it was closer to the Alps which. put them closer to the borders which. allowed them to like run things better. Rome is kind of deep in the Italian. peninsula. And then when things really. started getting bad they moved over to. Ravena because Ravena's on the coast and. so you can supply it really easy. It's. difficult to besiege and then also was. surrounded by swamps so it's difficult. for a land army to get in there. And so. now you've got like the imperial court. planted like in the middle of a swamp. just disconnected from everyone and.

everything and they didn't know what was. going on. It's like we got child. emperors who have no idea what's. actually Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. what's. actually happening out there in the. world. And so this you know the story of. of the collapse of Roman civilization. has a lot to do then with with like. really poor leadership and poor leaders. organization. Yeah. poor leadership. decisions on top of all the material. reasons why it collapses. Who was one of the most gangster like. children emperors that they have?

Gangster of the children emperors. Who. was somebody that was like, "Oh, this. dude should not be in there to Oh, I. don't I mean I mean one of the great. lessons of the history of Rome is don't. give teenagers power." Like don't do. that, right? Like no like no bad. But. you know like Hanorius um Oh yeah. Who. who are who are the other guys that. were? Oh, yeah. The these are the. classics. Gordian thei was pretty good. Gordian the third. Yeah. Gordian Gordian. thei was actually pretty good. I I'll. give I'll give a shout out to Gordian. thei. Emperor at age of 13. Wow. Yeah.

Which he he he emerges from uh the year. of the six emperors in case you're. wondering how crazy things got during. the crisis of the third century. In one. year. Yeah. There's it's the year of the. six emperors and he and Gordian emerges. as the. as the last of them because the Ptorian. guard supported him and liked him and. actually the people of Rome supported. and liked him. And what were his vibes. like? Did he have a good pretty good. vibe or what was it like? I think he did. have a pretty good vibe. Yeah, he had a. he had a really great adviser who was. with him for like four years. This this.

particular guy who I'm not even going to. attempt to pronounce his name because. every time I try I completely fail. Um. but he had he had good adviserss, right? and he had good people around him and he. seemed to be sort of educated and chill. enough that he wasn't just like I'm here. to just use this power that I've been. given, you know, any way that I see fit. Like there did seem to be some sense of. like I have a civic duty and and my role. as an emperor matters. And I think that. was true with him and I think that was. true of um this guy Alexander Seus too.

And who was a psycho? Any of them? Well, or just like you know just uh. self-absorbed. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the. list the list is Carcala, Nero, Algabis, um, uh, Caligula, and then th those guys. at the end, uh, Henorius, they're just they're just completely out. to lunch. So, they're just completely. out to lunch. And you know and my you. know my big theory is that as they are. um you know as as Rome is is falling.

into disrepair and they are resisting. fully incorporating the Goths into Roman. society. that it was that resistance to. incorporating the Goths that is what. meant that the the power of the Roman. Empire just ceased to matter. you know. like the people who would come along who. were heirs to uh to the Roman Empire. were often still acting under the opaces. of like the emperor back in the east. that like like the guys who come along.

after like oh I'm doing this because so. and so told me that that I could be in. charge over here they were still. referencing the power of the emperors. Um, but if you're going to if you're. going to keep all your all your generals. and the people who are actually running. your society on the outside and not. giving them any real political power, eventually they're just going to stop. caring because force is power. Force is. what underlies everything. Every. society, all political power is rooted. in brute force. And if you can't command. brute force, and they can, they're going.

to take over. And so what the Goss. wanted was to be fully integrated, which. the Romans had been so good at. It was. it's one of their greatest strengths. Like you said in the beginning, they. would take over lands. They would. incorporate the people, the religions, everything. Yep. And like And if you. know, they weren't an inventive people, but if they find a better sword that you. were making, they're going to take that. along. If if you have a better way to. build an aqueduct, they're going to copy. that. And you know, the book I'm writing. right now is about the crisis of the 3rd. century when the Roman Empire nearly.

fell but did not. you know who saves the. empire? It's a bunch of guys from. Alyria, which is the Balkans, right? It's a bunch of like dudes from Croatia. and Bosnia who are the ones who saved. the empire because they had been fully. integrated into the system and they. believed in in Rome and Romanness. There. was never an ethnic component to Rome. Not really. And certainly it's not the. case that when Rome stopped being, you. know, like fully pure blood Italian, um. that that's when things started to go. wrong. actually like in many cases the.

thing that stopped things from going. wrong was that we weren't listening to. the full-blooded Italians anymore. We. were giving power and authority to. people who would not have traditionally. been in in power, but because of the way. that Roman society worked could now be. in power. And to have not done that at. the end with the Goths, like I think. there's a there's a there is a moment. when there is a there's a a sister of. the emperor and a brother of the. chieftain of of it's allergic's brother. They get married and they have a kid.

And if that kid that kid died because. kids die in the past, right? We've. talked about this. And if that kid had. lived and gone on to become emperor and. integrated the Goths into Roman society, I think I think that buys him a couple. hundred years easy, man. That's that's but that's my own. that's my own little pet theory which uh. which I came across by studying the the. collapse of Roman civilization on on a. practically on like a daybyday level and. just being like, "Yep, you guys [ __ ].

blew this one, didn't you? You didn't. have to, but you did.". It just shows you every day counts, huh? Yep. Every day counts. You have a series. that you're do working on now about it's. about in the in the future. Yeah. Yes. Yes. We we'll we'll radically bounce. 2,000 years. That's okay. Into the. future. Um Yeah. So, the other show that. I have done is is Revolutions, which. each season of Revolutions covers a. different great political revolution in.

history. And it is the case I I have. found that a lot of revolutions do. follow like a similar trajectory. There's there's an anseion regime that's. falling apart. There's discontentment. among the elite. Uh there's new ideas. that have been entered and then there's. like a liberal nobility. There's. pissed-off lawyers and journalists. Like. a lot of these things are similar. There's a first wave of the revolution. and then there's a second wave of the. revolution that often throws out the. people who started the revolution. This. is kind of how the French Revolution. goes and the Russian revolution goes. um.

this is where like the Jacabans come. from and and then there's always a war, there's always a civil war like these. So these these things these large. structural beats of the story of a. revolution um there's there's a lot of. similarities and so what I've done uh is. I have taken those structural beats and. I'm writing a completely fictitious. future history of a revolution on Mars. in 2247. and I walk it through day by day and I'm. 20. I am 23 episodes into it. I love it.

I love What is What is that? Where are. you getting that from? Revolution. That's That's fan art. That's not me. Well, it's still nice. Pretty nice fan. art. Yeah, it's nice fan art. Yeah, my. fans are good. Um. Wow. I just think it's so fascinating. because you to take such a breath of. history and information and then put it. into something that's like um so uh like.

uh imaginative, you know, and but also. quickly coming with the future. Yeah. And then and then a lot of the things. that are happening in the Martian. Revolution, if you listen to it, you'll. be like, "Oh, I see." He's also. commenting on present society and where. we're at. because all good science. fiction is not actually about the. future. It's about the present. And so. the Martian Revolution is that, too. But. it's it's a pretty, you know, when when. all is said and done, it's going to be. 125,000 words that I wound up writing in. like 6 months to crank out this massive.

epic history of a science fiction. revolution, which if you're into that. kind of thing, come along for the ride. It's pretty fun. and and every part of. it, you know, is is like constructing. like a mosaic where sort of every. constituent part like has a reference. point in history somewhere. Like I'm. trying to tie all of these different. things together and like oh this is an. element from the Mexican Revolution. combined with an element of the Russian. Revolution combined with an element of. you know the French Revolution and then. moving on to the next thing and oh I'm.

going to take this thing from the. Haitian Revolution and I'm going to take. this thing from the English Civil Wars. and well we just go through it. I've got. I've got six episodes left and I by the. time this thing airs there'll be like. three probably left. Congratulations, man. I'm coming down the barrel of it. It's it's gone really well. I really. enjoyed writing it. Oh, well, it's just. fascinating, man. It's interesting to. talk to a historian. It's interesting to. talk to someone with so much knowledge. Um, yeah, I'd love to talk about. revolution sometime. I appreciate it, man. Thanks for taking us. Yeah. Just. It's just interesting to to be like.

because you always fantasize in your. head like, you know, I think about the. Roman Empire, man. I could have been and. you always fantasize yourself as I never. fantasize myself as one of like the um. slaves or anything like that. I don't. think you always kind of fantasize. yourself at least somewhere in the. middle or upper echelon, you know. Yes. Why does our brain do that? I wonder. Uh. cuz we want to be safe and protected and. so we put ourselves in a safe and. protected environment where the society. is working for us rather than us working.

for the society. Nobody wants to imagine. themselves as a slave. Um and so yeah, when when people fantasize about being. in the Roman Empire and they're like, "Oh, it would have been so great." It's. like, yeah, for like 27 guys, you know, like for the emperor and some people. around him, everybody else, it was kind. of rough going. And there's a very good. chance you died at the age of three. And. if you didn't die at the age of three, there's a very good chance you died at. the age of seven. And if you didn't die. at the age of seven, there's a very good. chance you died at the age of eight,

right? Like you're you're probably not. living very long. So, was it that great? So like as a historian and sometimes. people are like would you want to go. back and live in some period in the past. and mostly I'm really I really like. modern medical technology and a lot of. the things that we have like I am. pampered that way like if I get sick I. want antibiotics. I don't want to just. die of some like festering wound because. we don't have antibiotics yet. Like I. love all those things where I would. really go if I had like a time machine I.

could go anywhere. I'd go back to those. primordial forests before like humans. were even a thing. Like I'm from the. Pacific Northwest. Yeah, it's beautiful. up there. It's beautiful up there. And. like I would go to like, you know, like. basically like where Lake Washington is. right now or like the Puget Sound before. humans were even a thing. Just these. ancient primordial forests and just hang. out there for a little bit. Hey, get get. a nice little cabin and hear the sounds. that I bet animals made cooler sounds. before we came around and started. listening to them. They would certainly. behave differently, you know, because. right now like there's no interacting.

with wildlife. Not really because they. all learned to stay away from humans. Yeah. And a lot of the parents have been. locked up too in uh zoos or whatever. So. I think a lot of them it's gotten Yeah. So like Yeah. You go out to the Olympic. Peninsula and you kind of get a glimpse. of what that stuff used to be or like. when I was writing about Russia and like. you think about like these huge. primordial forests that like stretched. all the way from like Europe all the way. to China. just these amazing, you know, just this amazing number of trees and, you know, animals and plant mother.

nature. Yeah. Just just go chill with. mother nature. Like then once humans. come along, it's like, yeah, all right, I'm going to I'm going to head back to. where I can go to the hospital if I, you. know, if if things get really bad. Sometimes I wonder if we're helping. things are hurting them. Um, Mike. Duncan, thanks so much, man. I. appreciate your time. And um yeah, everyone can check out if you want to. hear uh more about Rome. You have two. books. Your second book you the the the. new book that you have out is the book.

I'm writing right now, which is I'm not. turning the manuscript in until. September, so it won't be it won't be. out till 2026. But yeah, the these are. the ones like Storm Before the Storm, the beginning of the end of the Roman. Republic, which is a lot of what we. talked about today. Like if if you're. interested in those sort of like. parallels between what kind of. trajectory it feels like we're on as a. society and what trajectory the Romans. were on, that's that's my best stab at. sort of talking about that. The storm. before the storm. Yeah. Storm before the. storm. With the storm being like the. civil wars that destroyed the republic. Yeah. Um and then out of, you know, an.

outgrowth of of my work in revolutions, I wrote a biography of the marquee de. Lafayette, uh who is a guy who had like. a 50-y year long revolutionary career. and we only ever think about him as he's. like this like 19-year-old kid who like. hung out with George Washington for a. few years and we like him because we all. like a Frenchman in a uniform. Uh but he. actually lived like this insane 50-year. life in and out of revolutions and you. know as I was write as I was writing the. show I was like god this guy just keeps. popping up so I wound up writing a whole. biography about him. He was a gangster.

huh? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There he is. There's my boy Jerier Marafet. There he is. Mike Duncan, thanks so much. for your time, man. I appreciate it. Thank you very much for having me. Yep. Now I'm just floating on the breeze and. I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I. must be corner stone. Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll. share this piece of mind I found. I can.

feel it in my bones, but it's going to take.