Richard Reeves | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #562

today's guest is a writer and a social. scientist he's also a dual citizen he's. the president of the American Institute. for boys and men I'm grateful that he's. here today today's guest is Richard. Reeds and I will find song I will sing. it. [Applause].

Richard Reeves thanks for joining us. today brother yeah I'm really thrilled. to be here yeah we appreciate it man you. want to move that in a little bit for me. if you don't want sure and you're um you. are British by birth I'm I'm American. now okay you're American now I'm yeah I. became a US citizen in 2016 so I'm very. very proud of this country oh welcome. nice thank you and you're the president. for the American Institute for boys and. men yep new Think Tank like God knows we. need more think tanks right that's what. America's really clamoring for is like.

more Scholars sitting in think tanks. producing charts and right honestly I. was in another think tank for 10 years. before that the Brookings institution. huge think tank in Washington DC great. job and I got to tell you it was not in. my life plan to to be in a think tank to. create another one no actually being in. a think tank is great but what that. means is you basically just get paid. good money to write stuff and say stuff. that you're interested in and what. happens to a lot of that information. from think tanks well that depends who. you ask if you ask the critics say it.

just gathers dust on people's shelves. yeah right maybe like two people in. Congress read it one New York Times. journalist reads it and so there is this. whole thing now that think tanks used to. like produce policy papers and then. grateful legislators members of Congress. would say thank you we'll go and turn. that into a law and Tada right that's. not how it works anymore and so the. whole question of how do you influence. law like how do you influence policy I. think is a really big question now uh so.

that there's a big question mark against. this whole idea of quotes Think Tank I. certainly didn't plan to start a new one. but but it seems like this one is. important that's one of the reasons yeah. that I wanted to get to talk to you. today because you know a lot of our. listeners are men and boys right um I. know Scott Galloway was on and he had. mentioned that you were kind of his um. Godfather of information or somebody. that he really looked up to you know um. and I I did also see you're born on the. 4th of July is that right correct do. they kick you out of Britain if you're. on the that would be great I should just.

have a rule right everyone who's born on. the 4th of July gets automatic US. citizenship but then gets deported from. from the UK right but it's so it's kind. of weird that because I've always had. that and then I actually came to the US. in the '90s to for the Guardian. newspaper I was a journalist for quite a. few years uh I just always loved America. ended up marrying an American do you. think it was because of your birthday at. all or no uh you know because it's just. interesting it would sound weird to say. yes wouldn't it but I if you think. there's no such thing as a coincidence.

I've always loved the fact that I was. born on the 4th of July and now I'm here. it's great everyone has a big party for. my birthday um and actually one of the. things that I've really thought about as. as an immigrant right and I don't when. you say immigrant you probably don't. think of someone like me but I'm I'm a. proud immigrant is that people who are. born here don't actually appreciate what. it means sometimes to be a citizen and. my citizenship ceremony which I did in a. hurry actually because I wanted to be. able to vote and wanted to get into the. you know get into the whole Civic life I.

was surrounded by people in. tears yeah there's people from Iran. there's people from Afghanistan Iraq. what you know whatever refugees a whole. bunch of different people some people. from Mexico and they're waving their. Flags saying the Pledge of Allegiance. you're welcome by the president and. there was there wasn't really a dry eye. laugh by the end of it and so I actually. now think that every high schooler in. the US should go to a citizenship. ceremony that's a great idea just. experience it cuz I don't think if.

you're like if you're born here like you. can take it a bit for granted what it. means to be a citizen but to go and. experience what it's like for people to. become a citizen I expected it to be. more I had a green card and I thought. yeah but I need it I want to be a. citizen as well I actually was. incredibly moved by the whole experience. yeah you don't think about the gift of. your own citizenship right and you don't. think about what others go through to. get it yeah and that yeah they used to. have I know whenever I was growing up. you had the Pledge of Allegiance there. was definitely a lot more even though.

the Pledge of Allegiance was like a. small thing it's one of like those. traditional things that made you feel. like a part of something right it was. like a traditional practice that that. created a commonality between you know. between kids we kind of thought it was. lame sometimes but sometimes you didn't. you know like at certain points of the. year if certain things were going on in. the culture um it meant more to you but. yeah that's and it's also just a ritual. yeah and and I we've come to undervalue. Ritual oh we're start they erode from. our society the point of a ritual right. it's not just like you can overthink.

what the words mean you can overthink. exactly what it means but there's. something about just the ritual of it so. um my my son is at the University of. Tennessee and he he explains yeah um but. actually when his friends come down to a. Tennessee game what's and they say a. Northeastern college or a small liberal. arts college what really strikes them is. less the game and it's more the fact. that there's the pledge of allegiance. that there's a prayer that the Jets go. over that there's fireworks that they. come out through the tea there there's a. whole bunch of ritual around it which is.

actually really beautiful uh and I think. sometimes we overthink the content of. the ritual and don't actually just. recognize it's the fact of the ritual. that really really matters yeah it's. like yeah people start looking at well. what are the words or the pledge of Alle. it didn't matter it was just that we got. do I mean every word of this right. that's we got up and we did it together. and I don't think there's anything wrong. if you live in a country and you're a. member of it to pledge allegiance to. that country I feel like um yeah correct. you know like cuz otherwise then what. are you you're just you're just a past. by are you like working for another.

country like what's your real modus. operandi then I guess um I have one. friend actually who's from Israel and. when he came he gave up his Israeli. citizenship Because he believes that you. cannot have more than one citizenship. you cannot have du dual citizenship is a. contradiction because you can only be. pledging Your Allegiance to One. Sovereign Nation I love that too and I. will confess that I have kept my British. passport oh you have yeah so if you had.

to choose what do you do then oh us no. question. wow yeah I get it I mean there's a. reason why everybody wants to come here. yeah dude the rock lives here right you. know yes I mean is that the main reason. people come here no I don't think so but. that would be a great idea if every. class had to go watch that go watch that. ceremony they always need volunteers of. them as well to like help out with the. paperwork and stuff like that and so you. could just have like some going like. every time like I just think it would be. really nice before you graduate high. school like and I would just anyone. who's listening right if you're thinking.

about a good cool thing to do like. volunteer at your local citizenship. Center and watch the people go through. the process of becoming a US citizen and. that might make you appreciate it a bit. I can't believe that it's not mandatory. um like in classes or in school that you. have to go see that maybe that's. something that one of these think tanks. could change you know well I proposed it. but let's see if it'll change but but we. can do it ourselves as well yeah we. could there nothing stopping us um. you're the president for the American. Institute for men and boys so what is. that Institute so it's a research and.

advocacy organization so what we're. trying to do is the basic premise here. is there are a lot of ways in which boys. and men are struggling in our country. right now and there are no institutions. there's no organizations whose job is to. basically wake up every every day and. draw attention to that yeah with data. with facts you in a way that will. hopefully raise awareness of it it's. this is this huge asymmetry I I I really. noticed it in the pandemic so when the.

pandemic hit there were a lot of reports. about how it was going to affect women. and girls there was a lot of concern. about employment domestic violence a. whole bunch of real real concerns yeah. so and a lot of press coverage for that. and those were perfectly legitimate. coming from women's think tanks from the. UN from the White House Etc but I. noticed that actually the college. enrollment for men had dropped seven. times more than for women in the first. year of the pandemic seven times. difference in that Dro just is that true.

it is true and then the numbers got a. little bit revised and it's partly. because the men were more likely to be. going to like trade school and stuff. which you just couldn't do online but it. wasn't just that it was just it just it. hit male education harder than female. education number one number two men were. dying a lot more from Co yeah Co was. killing a lot more men actual disease or. just the like the loneliness or the dis. disconnection oh the dis men were much. more vulnerable to co uh we last time I.

checked we lost at least 100,000 more. men than women and that's not to be. expected because actually it affected. older people right covid killed older. people a lot more and there are more. older women so if anything you think it. go the other way right but it didn't. because actually men were much much more. vulnerable to the disease and no one was. really researching that no one was. producing reports on that no one was. writing articles about that and it. really occurred to me that that was. because it was no one's job right right.

right there wasn't an American Institute. for boys and men but I can assure you. that if we' existed then we'd have been. pushing out lots of information about. how covid was affecting boys' education. and men's education and also killing men. in massively higher numbers well for. sure because I think also you you um I. don't know if ever in my life there's. been like. a like a lot of organizations where it's. like hey men need help you know it's. like everything is that women need help.

with this children you know and. certainly that makes sense um I always. think back to like women and children. first like when the Titanic was sinking. or something you know when something. like that it's like women and children. first right and that's probably what. most men would want as well but at a. certain point you're like hey uh we. exist what are we doing here you know. yeah um what was your like what was your. first relationship like like with your. dad or something like when you were like. how did you like just so we have some. personal uh attachment to this. conversation as well what was it like.

with your dad when you were a kid cuz. that's usually people's first male role. model yeah yeah yeah my dad was amazing. oh wow just amazing uh and is an amazing. Granddad to my sons as well uh and so I. just I was I was given the greatest gift. that I think anybody can ever get which. is two parents who both loved me uh. still together still loving us and that. sense somebody wants this sounds like a.

bit of a it's crazy that I'm shocked you. know that it's it's crazy that it's BEC. in this world that that's a shocking. thing yeah it's not like not like they. were perfect yeah to be clear but but. it's like like parenting is never going. to be about perfection it's it's always. going to be about the arc right it's. like a I think you almost get like a. parental grade point average right. across the whole decades it takes to. raise a kid right you're going to have. bad days and good days and you're going. to get some days where you get a really. bad grade right that Dad dad got an F.

today right he like said some stuff he. shouldn't have said did some stuff he. shouldn't have done to me but then like. you got a B the next day and then a like. what's my overall and and they were they. were genuinely like amazing and I've. come to realize that that is the most. extraordinary gift I was going to say it. sounds like a bit of a brag but I. remember someone coming someone come up. to me once after I'd done a talk or. something like that and uh there's your. dad right there get a gander and they. just said what's his name Phil David. David yeah that's a proper British name. as well they said like this guy's Dad.

loved him you can tell his dad loved him. and I was like so I loved you right I. was like that's so weird and I like I. don't know that you can just there's. something in people men who were loved. by their dads and I don't you could. never quantify that right there's no. chart you could ever make about that but. I have I've never doubted my father's. love for me and he was a coach for us he. taught us to swim he taught us to drive. but he was also the bread winner and I. had this moment with my dad that made a.

huge impression on me where like cuz of. his generation he had to be the bread. winner married very young and he lost. his job he became unemployed a couple of. times he worked in manufacturing during. the 80s which was a tough time you know. in the UK and the US and there was a. time he was unemployed for quite a long. time but every morning he got up and he. shaved and he put on a shirt and a tie. his concession was he didn't put a. jacket right didn't fully dress up right.

cuz he was trying to get a white col job. and he had breakfast with us and I I. asked him one day I said dad you going. into the spare room to type out like. resumes to try and get a job why why are. you shaving why are you still putting a. shirt on you don't have a job and he. looked at me and he said I do have a job. my job is to get another job so that I. can take care of. you and he worked as hard at getting a. job as he ever had at his job cuz he. knew that we needed him wow and although.

I think that fatherhood has really. changed it's been different for me right. cuz the economic relationship between. men and women has changed so. dramatically which is a huge Liberation. I think for I was able to be a. stay-at-home dad for a few years in a. way that he would never have been able. to do wow right so it's a different. world now but that basic idea that like. okay you have this purpose in life now. which is I have to take care of you it. just changes you and I had that directly. from my dad yeah and just seeing that. example like okay what does a man do.

every day he gets up he takes care of. himself he clothes himself and he uh. moves forward in the world in some. process you know like yeah no I think. that that's it took him months to find a. job and I've I've never been prouder of. him and I really realize that in. retrospect oh wow and he passed away now. no oh good my parents are in their 80s. now they live in Wales I'm half Welsh oh. you are yeah and that is that the bad. one or what's the bad one bad in what. way yeah I don't know that's a good. point I you'd have to specify yeah I got.

to look it up more I mean some people. would say that the Welsh are bad yeah. but I'm not going to say that okay yeah. okay Scottish the Scottish the Irish. well Scottish is the easy yeah. everybody's like the Scottish they're. over there eating their own teeth you. know but that's we agree on that also. yeah yeah okay no I love the UK because. everybody just just rips on the other. group you know rips on the other part of. it it's true of like almost everywhere. it's like everything it's like college. football it's like States but nowhere. stronger than in the UK. stage yeah you go on stage in Ireland.

you're like [ __ ] England and they just. they will cheer for the they cheer for. the other side right so like if you in. rugby or soccer or something like. everybody will like if if England's. playing Germany the Welsh will support. the Germans right I mean and we have a. history with the Germans but it's like. even then they any it's basically. anybody but England oh so the English. and the Welsh are against each other. even oh Christ oh yes I didn't know that. yeah not quite as much as the Scots. probably but I mean and also of course.

these they have deep history so I mean. it is United it is it is for Nations uh. and so there is always going to be that. difference yeah oh that's interesting. yeah that's it always just seems so much. fun over there how passionate they are. about it that's great I it's a kind of. tribalism can be good or bad but but the. issue of I know you're interested in. fatherhood and yeah for sure and I was. going to talk yeah and just so and just. um so I can just so I'll relate my own. yeah my dad my dad was older when I was. born my dad was 70 when I was born so he.

was an older guy so I think I had this. like this almost like fear all the time. that my dad was going to be hurt or die. maybe you know cuz it was always just. kind of scary you know like. um you know like he would drive and he. would ask us where we were going or if. we could turn and I was just a kid I'd. be standing on it on the passenger seat. was standing up and like getting up and. like looking at the lights and I'll be. like it's good you know it's green or or.

bad or something and I remember one time. I got it wrong and he just drove right. out you were literally having to be his. eyes while he was driving yeah I was. helping out you know cuz sometimes he. would park Too Close under the lights or. whatever you know he'd wait at an. intersection in the middle of the. intersection you know he's just old you. know he was just you know he was like 80. something at that point and um so it was. just bizarre you know I think it was a. very bizarre kind of like probably. fatherhood connection and then my. parents got divorced and so then at that. point yeah you kind of start to and then.

my dad didn't live with us and so my mom. didn't want him to live with us and so. you know then you're kind of like in. this you don't even realize it as a kid. you're just a kid but you're in this. starvation space for where do you get um. probably role models and where do you. who do you look to you know yeah um and. I had my brother around for a couple. years and then I was like a huge. wrestling fan like I really idolized a. lot of those guys um did you do it were. you a wrestler no I got into steroids.

but I never did the wrestling you did. the steroid bit but yeah yeah so I did I. guess you know but yeah I mean I. remember collecting all the figurines. and we would watch it I had a neighbor. and his dad was a his dad was um like. kind of dialed in and so that was. helpful what did he was almost like a. dad to you as well like because you can. share it around I think that's part of. the point oh for sure I think you can. get your father you can get your father. little pieces from different men right. you can believe that like um yeah had a.

basketball coach that you know showed me. like care and affection and um included. me in things that his family was doing. and then I ended up moving out and. living with a different family when I. was like 14 and that family had a stable. father in the home and so that uh that. helped a lot but yeah not trying to like. make it about me I'm just trying to like. um put both of our stories out there I. think know but might like one of the. things my dad also did he was a coach. like he was he coached rugby and and. stuff and I think particularly us I've. become really interested in the role of.

coaches so my basic view is that coaches. especially for boys we're actually. seeing like sports uh is going down for. boys in the US now boys are less likely. to play sports than in the past going BR. up it's going up yeah the Aspen. Institute uh has a really good project. called project play where they they. actually track the data it's going up. for girls and down for boys now it's. always been higher for boys but Sports. participation is going down for boys one. reason for that is coaches right you. need coaches to do that and uh we can.

maybe get into male teachers CU actually. one of the things that male teachers do. and my son has just become a teacher oh. wonderful yeah he's teaching fifth grade. in Baltimore and it like within a day of. starting someone heard his accent. because he's still got British accent. heard his accent he's a soccer coach now. and he actually is a good soccer player. but the point is says he's immediately a. coach right and I think that coaches are. basically mentor health professionals in.

disguise right uh I think they're doing. a lot of the work that you'd otherwise. do in terms of mental health and you can. kind of see like there's they'll be a. line uh from from the Aspen okay here we. go right here it says uh oh we have. fewer boys are playing sports in 2013. half of boys aged 6 to 17 participated. regularly in sports according to sfia. data only 41% of boys did in. 2023 right um girls age 6 to 12 had 34%. and 13 to 17 AG girls were 38% played at.

higher levels in 2023 than in any recent. years so girls is going up like you said. boys is going down some of that could be. attributed to to also a lot more boys. are like they choose to become Gamers. and that sort of thing but more. sedentary things it could be which is. not necessarily a good thing right I. mean you ideally you'd wanted do a bit. of both but then the question is like. why are boys playing less sport than in. the past right and one is this coaching. thing and you can't get coaches I I'd. love to see something like a coach for. America program you know is Teach for. America program which gets people into.

teaching because I think there's a lot. of men who are struggling to know how to. kind of connect with their Community or. what they can do right the some of the. older institutions maybe they used to do. that with through church or the scouts. or whatever have maybe declined they. have declined and so if there was a way. to kind of plug those men into a. coaching role I think that's important. because when I when you when you I mean. maybe this is maybe your experience but. like I think if you look at the the. image of a coach sitting on the bench. like with a student you know a boy or.

young man sitting next to him and he's. like how you doing right how are things. at home you know how are things with. your mom uh you know Etc is you kind of. that's counseling that's therapy but. you're just not calling it that yeah and. the other thing is critically you're. doing it shoulder toh shoulder do you. know this thing about the difference in. communication style between men and. women and boys and girls like men men go. shoulder to- shoulder women go face to.

face it's interesting how we're set up. here um once you've seen this you can't. unsee it oh that's interesting yeah CU. guys don't usually look at each other. when they're sharing information that. much no because actually that's a little. bit of a threatening that's a. threatening stance for men like if men. go face to face that's that might. indicate something some aggression or. some like it's a bit like you're you're. intimidating each other a little bit. right there's a role for that probably. uh when you talk to someone you rarely. stand and look directly there's always a. little bit of not if you're male so my.

we learned this the hard way like even. before I had any of the data and God I. wish I'd had this data when we were. raising our kids right but my wife would. like our kids would come home from. school all boys uh and the two that were. in high school and middle school at the. time they'd come home and they'd like. sit across the breakfast bar from her. right and she'd be feeding them stuff. like she feeding them protein have some. protein and then she'd stare at them. like this and be like how's your day. how's your day and they'd be like I know. fine theyd look down fine did you learn. anything I don't know right what did. nothing right just nothing and then. later on we'd be driving with them.

somewhere or watching a game or video. game or just something something like. that shoulder Tosh shoulder and they. would say uh you know this weird thing. happened today dad or or Mom right this. girl said this thing at school today huh. interesting and what we now know is that. that's very very common that actually. the communication style that men are. most comfortable with is less face to. face and it's more shoulder Tosh. shoulder now think about this.

fishing road trips watching sports. sitting on the bench that shoulder to. shoulder it is the only explanation I. have for the existence of golf what is. golf about do you play golf M okay good. I'd be willing to play it but I just I. can't even calm down right now but it's. like again men have to be doing. something. else and they have to be doing it like. just so if you go to a party now you you. you'll not not be able to unsee this.

watch how the men stand in relation to. each other and there are people who've. done whole phds on measuring the angle. we always stand a a bit catty corner a. little bit of an angle because other. because to go face to face is. threatening now women on the other hand. very comfortable face to face walk into. a coffee shop and count up how many. people are sitting opposite each other. staring each other in the face and then. see what the gender is of them much more. likely to be woman now it's not like one. is good or bad right but what you don't. want is a mental health profession like.

psychology or whatever it is based on. the presumption that we're all supposed. to sit like this and so a lot of male. therapists now they're taking their male. patients out for a walk that's the thing. to do walk and talk walk with them don't. sit and stare at them like as I've been. saying that for years as a man it's like. we don't want that yeah Mike's. girlfriend's a therapist now and she I I. I went she and I whenever we really. needed to discuss stuff we go on a walk. because you're in motion already there's. a part of you that feels like it's. moving forward even if you're sharing. something that's troubling CU sometimes. you get you're sit in a sedentary sit.

you're just sitting there in a in a room. somewhere it's like oh well you you. leave you haven't really gone anywhere. nothing's happened you know but on a. walk you you you're you're making. progress no matter what even by just. like um staying in motion same as a road. trip yeah but they've now got this. physiological element to it too which is. that just how you're relating to each. other physically especially for men it's. just very important that we are I'm. going to try that next time I'm with my. therapist in a room it's like yeah why. do yeah like maybe it's easier if I'm. just able to share and have somebody.

there right I remember one time I was. talking to my brother and um and I. didn't know that this had been important. in my life but he said he said hey man I. can just I was having a tough day man I. pulled over I was like just I was kind. of like falling apart a little bit and. um he's like hey man I can just sit here. on the phone with you uh we don't have. to say anything. right and I'd never. he's like I have some time right I have.

an extra 10 minutes I I can just sit. here with you we don't have to say any. we don't have to say anything and I I. can just be here with you you know and. man I just I mean it was like a damn. inside of me broke you know it was like. literally there was tears coming out of. my toenails you know like it was just. like you didn't realize all the time you. needed someone just to be there I didn't. near needed to hear them say anything I. didn't need to hear the how they thought. I felt I didn't hear need to hear a. response to anything no judgment nothing.

I just needed somebody there you know. and it was like I mean it I mean it like. I remember my hands vibrating it shook. me so much you know um you're very lucky. that idea of being like with somebody. not necessarily for them I think. sometimes we think like we've got to be. for them we've got to be telling them. what to do we've got to be advising them. we've got to be Advocate like somehow we. got to be doing something and sometimes. it's just being with and for them to. know that you're with I'm with you right.

that's incredibly powerful statement and. one of the things that I has really. motivated my work around boys and men. which I didn't ever expect really to be. doing was just this sense that I had so. many boys and men now don't have that. feeling that we're with you that we we. have your back we've we've noticed that. you're struggling and we are we're with. you and instead there's sometimes been a.

sense a lot of men have felt which is of. being neglected or sometimes even blamed. for their own. problems is pornography causing a. problem in your life do you find. yourself watching porno for longer. periods of time and having trouble. stopping is porn affecting your. relationship or dating life well you're. certainly not alone watching pornography. has become so commonplace today and. often times men use porn to numb the.

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to have one I know they're not in. everybody's price range and um and. that's understandable but at the same. time I want to support my friend uh and. his amazing. company so I think there are these real. problems right so I know you talked to. Scott Gallow about some of these issues. Scott's been amazing on this but the. suicide rate among men under the age of. 30 has risen by 40% since 2010 just. since 2010 by 40% is that true bring. that up yeah look yeah the American. Institute for boys and men did AI Trends.

uh analysis and if you go down you can. then see the shift in so up up until. 2010 it was much more older men um who. were there you go you got it so if you. go down um like there's. a let me see if M side rates had been. the same as women's from 1999 to 2023. would have lost 546,000 fewer men yeah. yeah so men are since 2010 rates have.

risen by 30% for 25 to 34 but we've. updated that since and for under 20 it's. 40% wow so what's really interesting. about the side and where do you get get. this information from from CDC from the. centers of Disease Control this is. official. so uh we lose 40,000 men a year to. suicide and since 2010 it's all shifted. to being younger men right so the rise. up until 2010 the rise was middle-aged.

men really and that was about deaths of. Despair you can see it's partly about. the economy but since 2010 the rise has. been among younger men and so that's a. very different thing that's not about. the recession that's that's something. different going on I think that's more. cultural I think it's more just a lot of. these young men feeling lost feeling. unseen yeah what am I a part of yeah. because you have to have purpose right. and I think um you have to have purpose. we've talked about that this on this. podcast learned a lot about it but yeah.

we have to have something to feel a part. of man I remember there was a guy I went. skydiving with and he' listen to this. podcast when it first started out and he. and I kind of connected and. um and we connected on like kind of like. some emotional L was talking about life. and stuff and then there were a couple. times he'd messaged me and I didn't get. back to him over like uh it was like six. months or something I mean life you know. you're busy life yeah and then he took. his own life not that I had you know.

nothing I probably could have done but. just like man it's just. like oh I just like sometimes that's. that just all that stuff kind of haunts. you it's like but you don't you don't. know it's coming and one of the things. that I that stopped me in my tracks you. know how sometimes so I for a living. like I'm reading research reports and. looking at data and stuff but I've also. been raising you know three boys but. even in the research sometimes you get a. finding that. just stops you and and affects you.

emotionally and there's one study that. looked at men who taken their own lives. and then looked at the words they'd used. to describe themselves before they'd. taken their lives and the two most. commonly used words that men were using. about themselves before they took their. own lives was I'm. useless and I'm. worthless and I think that sense of. worthlessness of genuinely feeling like. maybe me my family my community will be.

better off without me than with me is. what leads to that tragic outcome and of. course that's just the tip of the I. think that's the tip of the iceberg if. you then look at drugs you look at. substance abuse you look at what's. happening in the employment Market I. think that sense that a lot of men have. is that there isn't really a script. anymore to to follow to like to manhood. right to mature. masculinity and I think that that's in. one way that's for a good reason but the. way I think about this is if you think. about like the script that my dad had.

right about being a bread winner I was. going to say let's look at some previous. scripts so we can examine those so like. my like my parents are a good example. born you know uh born in the' 40s had. the kids in in the. 1960s and and then it was like my mom. knew that she was mostly going to be the. Homemaker and the mom she worked as well. she was a nurse but my dad knew that he. was going to be the bread winner right. the provider there was not a discussion. about that there was no question about. that so they had prettyy clear roles now.

the problem with that of course was that. the roles depended on the woman in this. case my mom being economically dependent. on my dad right right right that's the. problem and that's what the problem that. the women's movement successfully to a. large extent set out to solve right but. my dad was also quite emotionally. dependent on my mom right H and vice. versa but I do think there was like it's. a two-way street that was missing from. the analysis anyway we tore up these old. scripts right and we said to women you. don't have to be a housewife and and.

mother anymore or at least that's not. your only option you can be whatever you. want to be you go girl right be. president be an astronaut be what which. is amazing totally amazing that message. of empowerment we sent to women so we. tore up the old female script provided a. new one about empowerment and. Independence in new gole we tore up the. old mail script which is you're going to. be the provider and the. protector we don't really have a new one. we didn't replace it and so we're all. improvising now so basically we've gone.

from having some kind of script to. improvisation and that's really that's. incredibly difficult to do and so it's. hard because the good news here is. what's happened to women right like no. nobody wants to roll back the economic. gains of women but I think it's. incredibly irresponsible and naive of us. to think that that doesn't have. consequences for how we think about the. role of men we've got to be able to. think both of those thoughts at once. it's good that women are gaining ground. it is bad that men feel lost and.

purposeless and we have got to solve. that problem as well yeah yeah no I I I. I think that's that's really cool. information it's good to look at it's. good like and it's really it makes. perfect sense right and it's like you. want to have a reason right and I and. and some I think I think women yes they. didn't have the access to money and in a. capitalistic Society money is power. right but also I think there was a. missing respect there right there wasn't. all I think if women had been if it had.

been totally respected the the the. sacrifices that they made and the the. just intrinsic value of who they are as. mothers and as caretakers and as um. bridges of empathy and affection um and. as Homemakers no matter where they are. whether they're in a home or whether. they're in a conversation in a just. being able to have that ability to. create peace I think if women had if. that had been more respected then um. maybe they never would have felt as much. of a movement uh or as much of a desire.

to have so much of a movement because. they had the power right the power and. the money is the power is the power and. that's what that that the women's. movement had a huge fight about that. because there were some people in the. women's movement saying no no no we this. it's called the wages for housework. movement which was basically what we. need to do is pay women to do the. traditional women's role it's a cool. idea and and that lost out that was a. real idea yeah bring that up the wages. for housework movement this is there's a. big split in the women's mov between the. ones who are saying we need to Value.

care and value care work like wages for. hous work and then there's another. movement which is like actually you've. got to be yeah 197 in the 1970s I never. knew about this the wages for housework. campaign was a 1970s International. movement that demanded governments. recognize the value of unpaid domestic. labor primarily performed by women wow. the founders were Sylvia federici Selma. James um. marela daak. and Bridget galtier their goals were to.

change the dependency of domestic. workers reverse power relations and. redistribute wealth yeah dude that's. fasc that's another way we could have. gone in theory at least right and I'm. not saying that women didn't deserve to. have all the jobs and whatever they. wanted to do I'm just saying if there. had been a different level of respect. and some yeah and this makes perfect. sense and some Financial equality maybe. they they they would have uh they. wouldn't have wanted that I have no idea. I'm just thinking no well this is a. really interesting question because I.

now think we're at a point where a lot. of men and women are feeling like this. isn't quite working we're trying to. raise kids we're trying to form families. we want to raise our own kids right both. parents are so stressed out that they. can't even have a relationship anymore. right we want to stay together and be. married we want to raise our own kids by. and large right and we don't want to die. of stress right so one of the way to. think about this is like you had this. old family system where which was. Breadwinner for father hom maker mother. H and it was unfair in many ways but it.

was also pretty stable and very clear. what everyone's role is and it was. pretty good for kids right because of. that stability when it worked right. right we've replaced that with a. different model now where we don't want. that economic inequality so we're going. to both men and women are going to. work that can create all kinds of stress. and maybe that relationship is hard to. sustain which means it might end up. separating which is not good for kids. right and the rules super clear you. don't know who's going to be doing what. you don't know who's getting certain.

things done you don't know I the. division of labor is not clear anymore. there and a division of labor in other. words like being clear like you do this. I do this like an organized business. really yeah I mean it's like everybody. knows that it makes more sense like. you're in charge of X I'm in charge of Y. so you get you know really good at X and. I get y right um and the the interesting. path we took instead was like okay women. need to get into the labor market and. have Labor Market power I think that was. almost certainly I mean that's the right. I don't imagine a world where the wages.

for housework movement like huge. government subsidies to people who are. staying at home was ever likely and. there's all kinds of problems with that. idea but there interesting idea thought. behind it which is are we doing enough. to support the people who want to raise. their own kids the whole point of the. women's movement wasn't to turn women. into their fathers it was to give. everybody more choice right and we. haven't achieved that yet because we. haven't done the rest of it which is to. change the way the workplace Works to. give more more support to families I. know you had JD Vance on right and J.

jdance has supported like a child tax. credit to which is seen as a leftwing. idea to give more money to people who've. got kids in the house yeah right and so. that's that's not wages for housework. but it's in the direction of of actually. valuing care through government subsidy. but that has not been an idea that's. been popular for a pretty long time. really well since the yeah you're saying. that yeah that's interesting right so. it's a similar idea it's not the same. yeah and it wouldn't be framed as way. for hous anymore and it certainly. wouldn't be aimed just at women anymore.

it would be for families Etc but the. idea that another way to go is to. actually provide financial support like. most European countries do to parents. who are at home and not just to parents. who are in the workplace that's an. interesting discussion right now and I. think as long as it doesn't become a. call to go back right we're going to. help women stay in the home instead it. should be to help parents figure out for. themselves and I'm a huge that actually. fathers a fathers are doing so much more.

than they were in the past right fathers. are doing so much more in the home so. much more child care and dads are saying. they want to do more interestingly now. men are more likely to say that having. children is important to them than women. are yeah men are more likely to say that. getting married is important to them. than women are right and so that's a. really interesting moment in history. where if you've got this stereotype that. it's like women who are obsessed with. like getting married and having kids. like not anymore it's now men who are. saying that's a high priority for them. it's almost like men are coming to the.

to to bridge the gap there of like. making cuz there always needs to be some. one of the parties has to be until we. can get both of the parties to be. aligned has to be the one that wants to. bring it back to let's have a family and. move CU I think you have to do it it's. like it's how we're built yeah right. exactly how am I going to get that. purpose that you talking about I think. I've heard you say that you want to have. kids at some point oh yeah I would like. to have some kids man i' Ed this. campaign uh it's called 202 W that means.

like 2025 but it's like the this is this. is the year I get a wife oh I see so. that is I thought you meant you were. going to get 25 wives oh no now look I'd. be willing to have more than one wife. but we would need a change in the law. for that to you hey I could be a dual. citizen you'd have to be a dual citizen. with I think Afghanistan okay maybe Iran. I'm willing I could do it man you'd also. have to convert to Islam oh really well. how long does Christianity doesn't.

doesn't look kindly on multiple wives. can you do can you convert to Islam. online or not bring that. up I'm not the right person to ask that. how to convert to Islam oh good and. there's a 1 1800. number there is scroll. up scroll down oh it's an 866 number. damn that's great does that mean you. have to pay for it I I'm sure they hit. you with something man can converted. Islam is very easy to process and can be. done online in privacy okay if now that.

makes it sound very suspect the fact. that it has to we could just tell. someone right oh yeah no one can know. yeah secret if it sounds like somebody. is recruiting I think a better route for. you if I can offer some advice yeah it. is is is to just have one wife I think. that there's that stood the test of time. as as a way of doing things no actually. I I look I should be very recent time I. think most human societies have been. polygamous have actually had really yeah.

it's like 95% of known human societies. have been polygamous and almost always I. don't I'll get the word wrong it's. penous I think which means men are. allowed to have multiple wives but not. the other way round wow right very rare. to find it the other way around and. which is one of the reasons why I don't. this is a fact that like blew my mind. I'm going to try on you okay see what. you think um we have twice as many. female. ancestors as male.

ancestors okay twice t as many female. ancestors an ancestor means what across. human history right an ancestor means. somebody that existed so twice as many. females existed as men there are twice. as many women in human history as there. are men twice as many the modern yes. modern humans have approximately twice. as many female ancestors as male. ancestors this is due to a number of. fact I love the fact that you're. checking everything I say this makes me. feel much more confident about saying it. because then you're going to check it.

yeah good because we yeah we're trying. to do a little bit better job that's one. of my goals this year is just to have a. better um cuz sometimes I just assume. everything is true right and a lot of. this stuff is just helpful information. but I don't understand though right so. how can you have twice as many females. so you're just saying that two-thirds of. the people that have ever existed have. been female yeah wow but that I guess it. makes sense because you know there's. mother earth right so obviously she's. going to want more kind of babes around. hanging out on her and then you're going.

to have like there's going to be um and. females are the producers they have like. a they have the womb and they're the. makers they're like the re they're the. chefs so you need like more you know. life is about creation so I think it. makes sense that you're going to have. more women around probably right does. that make any sense you think no okay um. I just I just think women are the ones.

who like keep things together sure so I. think you're gonna need more of that. probably to keep the world functioning. okay oh I actually the idea do you know. why they have more though yeah oh sorry. Jesus no I like guessing I don't I mean. I don't hate your idea it has a certain. like the idea that mother earth like. wants more mothers around it's I think. it's kind of beautiful idea yeah I think. it checks out to. me why why aren't we googling this. that's a good question who wants a bunch. of dudes loitering around anyway.

someone's going to call the police every. time I I say something you have this guy. Googling it right whereas you say stuff. Google Google his stuff like there you. go right there look at that lady right. there like are there more women because. Mother Earth wants likes women better oh. for sure well she's obviously going to. have a probably like definitely I don't. know maybe Mother Earth is very jealous. and she doesn't want women around could. be the other way around yeah could be. like what wouldn't Mother Earth want. lots of men that's what I would think. too if she was straight but men are just.

men are just they're just loing around. they're jerking off in the parking lot. or whatever you don't want that I don't. think that's a that's not what you want. you want some babes around I think can I. give you an alternative Theory that's. why which is that um you because you. societies have been polygamous right you. don't need that many. men oh yeah uh in order to have a lot of. children it's like the NBA it's like NBA. players kind of thing what do you mean. like a lot of those guys have who has. the most kids in the NBA bring that up.

wow think it's some are they are NBA. players well known for having lots of. children I think they're promiscuous. type of you know so it's like Calvin. Murphy there we go 14 children so I'm. just saying yeah these guys can. definitely well you see it on Tinder as. well you see on these apps this um it's. got like a winner takes all type thing. words guys at the top that's what Scott. Galloway was saying that like the top 1%. of men what the numbers but what's. interesting about that is like that's. human that's basically human history I.

actually showed that Tinder data to an. evolutionary psychologist I who studies. like whole history of humanity and he's. like yeah that just looks like human. history to me which is high status men. mating with multiple women um and. therefore we are kind of reproduce but. 50% of men across human history didn't. have kids at all they didn't reproduce. now what that meant was there's all. kinds of implications for that like one. is first of all um I'm reading this book. by Neil Ste Stenson now um it's called. seven EES and that we basically have to.

kind of send out a few people to survive. and there's this passing comment because. the Earth's going to be destroyed seven. EES seven EES yeah okay um there's this. passing comment there which is like most. of the colonists will have to be. female right and the reason for that is. the ones we're talking about which is. you need a lot of WBS to keep the human. race going but you don't need as many. men right right there's this guy. actually he's I can quote him directly. this guy Roy Bal who says we have a. penile Surplus which is a kind of brutal.

way of putting it but it's like we just. don't need that many men right now one. consequence of that is this is going to. get me back to your skydiving I'm I'm. going to Loop this if I'm successful. here if if I'm successful I'm going to. Loop this back to skydiving I have 0%. chance of looping things let me try I. believe in you so um okay yeah so 50% of. men have not reproduced in human history. so half the men have kids half of them. don't have kids and it's the lower. status men men who are not going to have. kids right because the higher status men.

have multiple wives they're actually if. you like they're overc consuming and. they can afford to do it correct and so. if you're a low status man there's a. good chance that you're just not going. to reproduce at all right you're going. to be an evolutionary dead end your DNA. is not going to go anywhere and under. those circumstances you will risk almost. anything to raise your status go to war. go exploring turn to Crime do anything. to try and get yourself up that. hierarchy so you have a chance of. reproducing if you stay down there you.

ain't going to have kids you're right. and so you got to get up there so you. take risks oh yeah you risk your life. because actually if you die who cares. who cares you only got a 50/50 chance of. having a kid anyway right and if you're. down there it's not 50/50 it's maybe. like you're almost certainly not going. to have a kid so so you take crazy risks. to raise up the hierarchy and one. consequence of that is men on average. are more RK taking than women even today.

which is why they go skydiving like what. do you what do you think about skydiving. like men are also twice as likely to. drown Men twice as likely to drown drown. yeah there's all kinds of ways like. risky Behavior both good and bad is. higher among men right good could be. like being entrepreneurial whatever I. don't know any women that have drowned. and I know some men that have drowned. right and so. skydiving ah you know what I'm going to. say something and I don't know if this. is true so you're going to have to get. your fact tracker and the sky to check. but I bet you more men Skydive but I.

know for sure that smoke jumpers are. almost entirely men do you know what a. smoke jumper is I don't think so it's. not a Native American thing is it no. you're from the south right where are. you from yeah I'm from Louisiana yeah. yeah okay You' know if you were from out. out kind of West right what does it say. about men and women well the number of. men and women who try tandem SC is. roughly equal the sport of skydiving is. predominantly male professional. skydivers only about 14% of professional. skydivers in the United States are women. okay some reasons for the disparity. women may be more risk averse than men.

just like you're saying yeah um that's. number one and women may be perceived as. less interested in taking risks if. you so just from an evolutionary. perspective or if you're a woman you are. highly incentivized to protect your own. body right because you probably this is. just EV in evolutionary terms yeah. you're the one who's got the future and. you're going to have a kid probably most. women have reproduced right you're quite. like to have a kid whereas if you're a. die actually if you've only historically. had like a 50/50 chance right and you.

got to get more status and your body is. kind of less quotes valuable right so. who cares if your nuts land out in the. desert or whatever cuz you shoot didn't. open or you throw yourself out of a. plane so so these these smoke jumpers. smoke jumpers are highly trained. firefighters who Parachute from. airplanes in remote areas to fight. wildfires wow it's almost like um severe. barbecue like one of those TV shows or. whatever smoke jumpers are really. interesting because these are people who. have chosen for a job okay that they.

will go up in an. airplane jump out of the airplane even. when there's nothing wrong with the. airplane which is what you do apparently. jump out of the airplane but the. difference is they jump out of the. airplane into a blazing Inferno in the. middle of nowhere and stay there for. days on end fighting that fire that's a. interesting job choice and it's almost. all men now there are some women of. course women should be encouraged to do. that job and that's great if they want.

to do that job yeah but I'm just going. to go I said this to a female friend of. mine I said you know this profession I. explained to her what it was and she. said you can keep that one yeah right. there is no big feminist movement to get. more women into smoke jumping smoking is. so bad for you anyway I guess the point. here is like there's there are ways in. which on average men and women are. different and one of them is that men. have this different appetite for risk. and if that do we think that that's good. or bad is the wrong question it's both. good and bad it depends how it's.

expressed right because there are times. when you want people to be willing to. take risks to put themselves on the line. uh or to kind of try a new venture or. something like that and there are times. when it's a really bad idea yeah right. to try a new drug when it's not a good. idea or to jump too high off a off a. bridge or whatever it is and so there's. there's ways in which those differences. between men and women can either become. good or bad but we don't get anywhere by. denying that they exist what we we do is. we say there are these differences how. do we Channel them in productive ways.

and so if young men for example are a. bit more risk-taking and they're a lot. more risk taking when they're young if. they're a bit more more potential for. physical aggression which is absolutely. clear Etc if they're a bit more driven. by sex for example which is also. absolutely true we see that playing out. in all kinds of ways around kind of. pornography Etc it doesn't do any good. to just say that's not true right that. those things aren't they're all. socialized actually instead what we're. going to say is they are true so what do. we do about that as a culture and as a. society how do we kind of take those.

differences responsibly and not fall. into the Trap of saying one is good or. one is bad we used to think that somehow. the male attributes to call them that. were better right that's a patriarchy. and the female ones maybe more caring. more nurturing Etc as you said a minute. ago right we just we value them less. right we don't want a society like that. but we also don't want a society where. the male the more male leaning. attributes are seen as intrinsically bad. it's one of the reasons why I hate the. term toxic masculinity by the way well. also there's no toxic femininity either.

which is interesting you know it's like. because you you got to have one and the. other no matter what I feel like um. getting your sweat on might seem like. hard work but with symmetry sauna it's a. work of art premium custom saunas for. your home or business plus a series of. sleek pre-built saunas I just got myself. a symmetry sauna and I'm sweating out. bad decisions. like the time I tried to just uh fill my. own um chip tooth in why sauna well it.

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with Aspen wood from ancient Estonian. forests oo yep fancy trees symmetry. sauna the perfect balance of Form and. Function learn more about how to get. your own premium home sauna from. symmetry sauna at symmetry sauna.com. SLO just to kind of circle back to where. we were um so there's a lot of men that. are suffering right there's that's kind. of been proved there's a lot more of. suicide um there's uncertainty as what.

it means to be a man masculinity this. kind of uh masculinity with this new. femininity kind of being defined now the. the new masculinity is kind of. undefined um yeah that's a good way to. put it and a lot of men are looking for. their place what do you feel like is. causing that these days um because it's. not women causing it it's not this this. equality of women no no it's not and I. think that's really important thing to. say because that sometimes is what feels.

like might be the case and what some. people are saying including kind of. online which is what they do is they. take two facts which is women have risen. significantly economically in terms of. Education now massively overtaken men. Etc men are struggling and suffering. there's culdesac of sorts yeah and like. so maybe that's because of that right. maybe the maybe the struggles of men are. the result of the rise of women that's. completely untrue they for different. reasons so the economy has changed right. so a lot of the jobs that men used to be. able to do especially without maybe that.

much education in manufacturing and. steel works and Mining and stuff they've. largely gone right and so are they gone. for good or they've just gone away from. um America they've gone away from. America they've gone away from America. okay and there's no serious Prospect of. those male jobs that required like. strong physical labor like Bruce. Springstein type stuff it's not coming. back I mean it's we can be nostalgic for. them by and large I mean I'm not saying. there's none no none of that right um.

but that's a huge shock right it's a. massive change in in the workplace it's. just those jobs that men used to be able. to do that their dad maybe did just. they're just not there yeah I mean that. was a lot of the commercials when I was. a kid it was like I was born in a small. town you know what I'm saying there was. that commercial of like somebody made. something and I remember my grandfather. worked at the um plant in his town and. they made elevators and stuff they made. parts for elevators and it was a small. town but he worked there and my grandma. would take him lunch over there at the. weekend or during lunchtime and they had. a lunch whistle in town and there was.

just these little things you know and. and and whenever we drove past there you. know like Grandpa works there you know. it was like so there was um it added. purpose to everybody's existence there. yeah and there was a real structure to. it I mean just think about my own family. I took my three sons to North Wales to a. town called Blinder fog in North Wales. that will that will blog is a disease as. as well I think oh in a few minutes. it'll be a new uh drug available in in. America okay that's this will fool your. fact Checker they will not be able to. even spell blind of fog uh but it's a.

you was the biggest producer of slate. for a long time and generations of my. family have worked in that slate mine oh. really we went there and we found their. great great great great great. grandfather's grave no way and went down. into the mine and spent some time there. had a big effect on them and it's like. what did you do you did what your dad. did go down the mine what your granddad. did go down the mine right go down the. mine go down the mine and and even when. I was growing up and I grew up in. Peterboro an industrial Town my mom was. a part-time industrial nurse for a while.

and the Hooter for the ends of the. shifts we could hear it across the town. and so we knew when she was coming home. CU we would hear the factory Hooter horn. horn yeah Sounder Sounder alarm thank. you wow yeah so it's almost like as men. we're out of the minds now a little bit. like we had that not everybody some. people are still in there and that's. tell you it was such a weird it was such. a weird experience like we went down to. the bottom of the Slate mine and there. these little huts. in the bottom of the mine and they would. go in there for like 30 minutes at.

lunchtime and they would sing this is in. Welsh right so they' sing they'd sing. and they'd eat and they'd talk maybe do. a bit of politics right and then they'd. go back up and start cing out the Mind. very dangerous incredibly well paid for. the time very dangerous work and there. was something about I went into those. huts and I sat in there like with my. boys and we're kind of sitting there and. thinking about like seven generations of. our family being down there and actually. this is going to sound a bit weird but. almost being a little bit envious of.

what it was like for those men to go. down there and be in that like little. heart and then of course you catch. yourself and you think you're an idiot. right it was dangerous work it was hard. what are you talking about right and if. you put me in there now right I probably. wouldn't do great right but I think what. what it was catching for me and with my. boys especially was this sense of like. male solidarity right just a sense that. visceral sense of like it did structure. l male lives in particular and in that. in that town when the men went down into.

the mines all the all the wives would. come out and the kind of children and. stand silently it was bad luck for there. to be any noise so they stood silently. while the men went down into the mine. wow and hope that they would come back. uh and so there's something very. beautiful and nostalgic about that and I. get that Nostalgia yeah it was a. tradition right but it was a ritual. ritual tradition purpose space clear. script right what what are you going to. do how about you do what your great. great great great grandfather did and.

your great-grandfather and your. grandfather how about just doing that. right um and I don't think we we. couldn't even if we wanted to. reconstruct that kind of world but I do. think we should be honest about the fact. that the collapse of that structure and. those scripts has really left a lot of. men incredibly uncertain about am I. going to be needed by my family what am. I going to do what's my job going to be. so we had this massive economic change. and then along it alongside it we've had. this huge social change which has been.

the economic rise of women right and so. it's no longer the case that women are. now like looking for a man Gloria steinm. is a very famous feminist still alive uh. from the 1970s I actually had a really. cool meeting with her really cool lady. or not yes totally cool I got to meet. that lady she's amazing uh and she said. famously she said the point of the. women's movement is to make marriage a. choice. for women not a necessity ah right.

because women needed to get married. before to right is the only way who's. going to pay for dinner right and not. yeah right not a fancy restaurant just. right and to the whole point is make it. a choice so that women have enough. economic power to choose marriage rather. than being forced into it she she. actually this is a weird Coda but she. actually just got married herself I. think she's in her '90s now she's so. cool but she got married uh partly cuz. samesex marriage is legal now and. because she said we've made enough. progress that Mar she used to describe. marriage as this patriarchal Citadel Etc.

here's the weird thing she got married. to Christian Bale's father wow which I. just find a bit random uh and he's. British isn't he interesting no is he I. don't know I don't know either David. Bale right there in 20866 the long. single steina married for the first time. in a Cherokee ceremony in Oklahoma so. that was a while ago it was in 2000. right her husband entrepreneur activist. David Bale sadly died of lymphoma 4. years later wow yeah but so even in the.

end even glorious steinm felt like it. was okay to get married right we've made. enough progress that actually women. marriage was no longer this kind of trap. for for women economically but it was a. choice it was a choice and and so but of. course what that means is when it's a. choice there's a lot of women that might. be like I choose not to marry you I. might or might not have kids your kids. but we're now in this world where a lot. more freedom of choice and of course. that is a great and wonderful thing but.

it's also created a huge amount of. uncertainty especially among men like. they just I think a lot of men feel now. that they've been told a bunch of things. that they know they shouldn't. be uh shouldn't be Predator shouldn't. you know there don't do this you can't. peep in time you can't quite and quite. right too right but there's no like I. sometimes think that we had a long list. of don'ts for men right right but not. very many dos yeah where's the list of. to-dos for men now for sure and it used. to be that yeah almost every man was you. weren't guaranteed a wife but everybody.

was going to need to pair up because the. way that the the the script was put. together you needed each other because. um you needed someone to be in the home. you needed someone to be the bread. winner the script was there you had to. partner up so figure it out and let's. move on let's move forward in the world. exactly and what I fear now is that. there are some more. reactionary forces voices saying the way. to to actually for men to find purpose. is to go back because it's very recently.

that there was a world where men felt. purpose which was the world we just. escaped from where women were. economically dependent on men and so I. could totally understand why this is. happening where people are saying well. we used to know what our role was when. women were economically reliant on us. well first of all we ain't going back. there's no switch you could turn out. even if you wanted to yeah and we don't. want to but that doesn't mean we. shouldn't be doing more to help men move. forward and actually having a bit of. empathy for the fact that this is a.

difficult moment a difficult transition. for men and so rather than kind of. pointing fingers at them we should maybe. offering them the occasional helping. hand and I think that lack of empathy. and understanding and awareness of the. genuine suffering of many of our men has. created a huge vacuum in our culture and. in our society and we need to fill it. fast otherwise we're going to lose more. and more of our men and we'll be right. back wow very very true so one thing you. have to start to look at is then where. do men start.

to you know or where do men continue to. uh find these building blocks right to. to create the worth inside of themselves. um for me one thing has been through. other men right and and um and even like. you're saying shoulder toosh shoulder. like things that experiences that I've. had that have been the the best um like. even when I used to go to uh Brazilian. jiu-jitsu and take classes there it was. really amazing you're in this physical. space but Al also there's so much mutual.

respect in there it's not people trying. to beat each other up it's trying to. help people trying to help each other um. physically uh learn how to take care of. themselves right and but with with that. there's so much camaraderie and um and. um love and compassion that comes along. with having great instructors and a lot. of times it's just the guy next to you. who's your best instructor for the next. moment um recovery meetings you know I. go recovery meetings for um intimacy and.

um AA and those meetings for me are. really great um especially the intimacy. ones like where you know they call it. like sex and love addiction and stuff. but it's really just like intimacy. disorders or connection disorders or. just it's almost just low self-worth. it's all it's all of that and sometimes. you base it off of your relationship. with women or you can look at your. relationship with women to see how. you're doing on your own and other are. there men and women in those groups or. is it just men the a lot of the ones I. go to are just men and it's not that I. don't want women in them it's just like.

I want a space where it's just men I can. be able to share openly if I'm. struggling with a certain thing or how. I'm feeling or um and it just be other. men you know it just feels and it and. then you're not trying to like uh slurp. on any of the chicks that are in there. either you're not trying to flirt or. anything you know you're just which. would seem bad given the nature of the. problems that many of the men have oh. you'll be shocked be like holding an AA. meeting in a bar or something yeah I. understand that yeah so it's yeah so but. getting male solidarity from both that's. you're getting and that's one of the. reasons I go I go to hear other men. share I I go to share and sometimes.

they'll say something and. like my body will just go like that. right it's like just your shoulders drop. you breathe it's an exhale that I didn't. even know I needed to take it's an. exhale that has just been running in the. back of my subconscious for sometimes. decades sometimes hours sometimes years. minutes but it's something that I needed. to hear I needed to hear everything was. okay yeah and I needed to hear another. man's voice say it and um and it helps.

it helps uh it helps yeah it's interest. I well thank you for sharing that yeah. you're welcome but yeah what spaces are. there for men like it's something. beautiful about that I think I know back. to my story about The Hut like in the. bottom of the Slate mine it's like. there's something oh yeah there's. something nice about it beautiful it's. quite fragile I think that male. friendships take work I think we. sometimes don't pay enough attention to. them it's actually something like I go. on road trips with my best friend Al. every year I get together with my male.

buddies and we go hiking so that we're. shouldered to shoulder and and just talk. and catch up and that's I I think one of. the one of the damaging Trends in recent. years has been a suspicion of male. spaces right of like the boys weekend or. even some of the institutions so if you. actually go through the institutions now. like the Boy Scouts is not the Boy. Scouts anymore I'm actually a scout. leader I'm not doing as much now but. used to run a scout group over in the UK. and I was a scout but it's co-ed now Boy. Scouts is co-ed it's Scouting For.

America now and what is Girl Scouts are. they just join forces no Girl Scouts are. still Girl Scouts no yeah and we can't. go over there the Girl Scouts does not. allow boys in WoW but boy scouts has. become Scouting For America ladies. that's that's not even but there's a. pattern here uh you've got the YMCA is. now co-ed right well no one thinks no. one really thinks about the m in YMCA. anymore that's your point H right. whereas the YWCA still very kind of. focused on women Boys and Girls Clubs.

used to be boys clubs and think there's. one other one I'm thinking of and it's. not that it's not it's always bad for. things to be co-ed it's not that you. also don't want institutions for girls. and women but what we've got now is a. situation where we're actually really. very often applauding having these. spaces for girls and kind of women to. have female solidarity work together. grow together but we're really. suspicious if it's if it's men doing it. and I get why right because of our. history but I think that as a result. we've actually deconstructed a lot of.

these institutions where actually boys. could learn from other boys and from men. and so on too and so I I think that. turning the Boy Scouts into Scouting For. America and taking not for it being I I. think we'll I think we'll look back on. that and just say that was a bad. decision it's kind of emasculating as a. in a way it's just like why can't I mean. I just think about my own experience and. it's not I went to co-ed school but. actually the fact that I was able to go. to Scouts and there would be guys there. and we could learn from each other and I.

weirdly I actually think that male. spaces are where you can help men to. learn some of the not traditionally male. attributes like caring and nurturing and. love and expressing that stuff it's just. easier right or a male sports team right. like you're learning love you're. learning comradeship you're learning. solidarity you're learning exactly and I. just think that's a bit and it probably. is true for girls too that kind of. learning some of those skills that maybe. go against The Stereotype of about girls. like learning to be more assertive maybe.

or competitive Etc like you you. generally don't have to encourage a. bunch of boys to compete with each other. right that just tends to be a bit more. baked in right it's in their nature yeah. and there should be spaces where it's. like hey men can meet up here tonight. and they used to have more of them there. was like more American Legions there was. more like vfw's but a lot of that was. military based type stuff it was and. since we haven't had that large of a war. you know I know we have conflicts and. we've had some smaller words but I know. we haven't since we haven't had such a. huge conflict there hasn't been that Big.

Band of Brothers type of vibe that's. that's brought men together so much and. then also even if and I'll go even as. far to say if you're a white male right. like there's there's spaces for black. males Latinos Middle Eastern clubs there. can be all types but if you're a white. guy you just are [ __ ] a you're looked. at as you're pointed out a lot of times. it feels like by the media as like a. loser as part of the problem as the. Creator of the problem I don't think a. lot of that energy is also good um in. our country when we do we have white.

males in our country you know and it's. you can't like you can't make also white. males feel like they don't exist you. know um because also a lot of white. people didn't have a lot of like yes I. know there's privilege but if you grew. up with nothing you didn't [ __ ] feel. any privilege sometimes in fact being. white and having nothing I would get. looked at personally as why the [ __ ]. don't you have anything how did you [ __ ]. this up so bad. you know like you must something really. must be wrong with you if not you have. the right color but you your family.

can't even get [ __ ] together enough wow. what a loser and I'm not I'm not. speaking against any other group but I'm. just saying sometimes you know like uh. there's not a rep there's no one you're. not allowed to speak up for your own. group just because of um history and. that doesn't feel super Fair sometimes. you know does that seem crazy or not it. feels to me I'm as a a new American I. learned a lot about the history of. racism in in this country and. particularly for black Americans I feel. very strong I start starting slavery.

[ __ ] yeah gone me down but so like civil. rights but if I'm just playing a fantasy. football and trying to take care of a. family [ __ ] let me be somebody again. I think the way I see this is that it's. part of a more General problem which is. to be able to hold two thoughts in your. head at the same time which is it is. true that America has this history of. racism and that there are still some. racial issues that we need to deal Brit. started it yeah we polished it up a. little I'll agree but other people. started it too you know yeah and the. first slave I think was who was it who.

was the first slave ever in the history. of time it was in the Bible wasn't it. well there's lots of slaves in the Bible. there you. go. so the US has a uniquely terrible. history when it comes to slavery yeah in. modern history right that is true yeah. that is absolutely true and has a issue. around race absolutely true still issues. around race yes still issues around.

gender equality yes and if you're a. white guy particularly from a low-income. background right now you're actually at. the highest risk of suicide right and. your economic prospects compared to your. father have seen the biggest drop okay. so two things can be true at once it can. be simultaneously true that we' still. got to deal with these issues and that. we have this history and not throw. anybody Under The Bu. oh yeah right no one has to be left. behind we have to rise together we have. to think about a way in which like and.

class is a big part of this I think like. what's very often missing it's weird for. me as a a Brit coming to the US one of. the things I've really noticed is that. the US has a class system which I think. is every bit as brutal as the British. one the difference is Americans we. pretend that we don't have a class. system oh the Brits don't hide it we. have a king now forget King we have an. aristocracy we have knights we have all. kind we have all kinds of like we're.

we're obsessed with class in the UK. where I come from right it's one of the. reasons I ran here right one I loved. America was there was less of it but. like the US is a class system too and if. you look at like trends for men it's. really workingclass men right it's men. like who maybe didn't do so well in. school maybe haven't had college degree. from poorer parts of the country etc. those men are the ones who are suffering. the most right from from substance uh. problems m health problems family. problems employment problems right those. men like they're really struggling and.

that includes white men as well as Black. and Hispanic men that's a class issue. not a race issue yeah and I think that. quite often in the US people are more. comfortable talking about racial. inequalities than they are about the. overlapping class inequalities because. most of the people talking about this. are at the top of the class oh yeah well. in a lot of it's to our media our media. is usually very well-off people and. they're like let me Brak break out the. racism drum and beat that when it's on. and of course those things need to be. addressed but it if it if that stuff.

becomes the only sound you hear then you. guys are going to just then everyone is. going to continue to dance the same. dance and so I think that that's where. we're missing some of the evolution but. I think that that's starting to change. it's why people are um sick of uh of. Hollywood and everything that they've. created for a while like that point you. just made if that's the only sound you. hear I think that's the point what I've. discovered in my family my extended. family through my wife Etc we have a lot. of political diversity right and a lot. of huge amount class diversity my wife. is from a much more workingclass.

background than I am even kind in in in. the uh in the US on the Maryland. Pennsylvania borders where she grew up a. lot of diversity and actually what I've. kind of found in talking to a lot of. them is that like they actually are. significantly more tolerant about a lot. of these issues than probably the. mainstream media would would think but. they're becoming but if that's all they. hear they they need to hear the other. bit as well and I think this is kind of. if we can move from or to and right so.

on gender like all this stuff we have to. still stuff to do for I don't think. there are enough women in politics in. the US I would love us to have a female. president I think we need to do more. around kind of women in certain. occupation sure. yes and we've got to tackle the male. suicide crisis and we've got to figure. out why boys are doing so badly in. schools and we've got to figure out why. male wages have been flatlining for. decades right it's an and not an or yeah. but there are too many people out there. who have a vested interest in making an. awe so men are struggling why because of.

women right we're going to blame women. and blame feminism blame the progressive. no that's not it or women are struggling. and you know why because of the men. because of patriarchy and toxic. masculinity Etc has to be all and that's. where the clicks are that's where the. that's where the money is that's where. the speaking gigs come from that's where. your ratings come from is if you can. position it find a villain find someone. to blame that's where you get drawn but. it's almost never true right well a lot. of times now the lens is the villain.

that's the thing that I've started to. realize the villain the lens is the. villain and we didn't realize that we. were having we've been forced to look. through this lens for so long because. our media has just been the same it's. been so uh command deared you know and. so now it's becoming Freer and um and I. think that that's scaring kind of like. the powers that be you know I think it's. one of the reasons why they don't want. Tik Tok taken over you know they want to. force a sale of Tik Tok you know they're. afraid um that it'll share truths that.

they can't hold you know anymore right. but I've been thinking a bit about this. the role of podcasts like this one and. others and I'd be interested to actually. just ask you about this because one of. the things I've been thinking about is. the way in which these are very. freewheeling conversations right they're. very like we're talking so there's a. thought you have a we have a theme we're. going to talk about but what you've got. is usually two people thinking out loud. and trying to learn from each other and.

trying to say stuff and sometimes you. try and fact check what you're saying. but like this is a very different kind. of environment to like a classical media. interview right you've got your points. you've got your bullet points you've got. it's much more and I think a lot of. people are really attracted to it maybe. especially young men I think maybe they. kind of like that sense of like we're. just trying to figure this out right. we're having a. conversation it feels that s to so vibe. way it does it does it feels more like. his and almost like they're overhearing. like we like we're overhearing a.

conversation right so I know this is a. little bit weird to be talking about our. conversation but but but I don't know. what you do you it's not just like a. different media Outlet it's like a. different way of doing it well because. at a certain point you can't hide it's. like I think there has to be some bit of. there enough of you will be revealed. it's like even sometimes I feel like if. I don't fact check certain things and. I'm learning how to have certain. conversations like people will get an. idea of who I am or who you are by.

listening to us for a certain period of. time and then they can make a fair. judgment for themselves and it doesn't. even have to be um a good or bad. judgment you're not we're not saying. that either one of us is good or bad um. we're probably saying that we're both. both we're just trying uh to have a. conversation together and I think as a. listener you get that you're like okay I. don't maybe Vibe with this guy I'm glad. I got to listen to him you know um it. gives you value for your time to I put. my time in I'm grateful I got to listen. to that person I agree with some of the.

things they say oh i' never thought. about that but you also get to see. people as more um complete and I think. it goes back to what you're saying like. um that you know a lot of people can. we're not they people aren't as simple. both things can be true all the time for. a lot of people and they are usually. they are usually they are usually two. things are true and I think that's. what's that's what's a lot happen with. podcast is it it holds two three four. seven things true at the same time while. you're having a conversation which is.

very normal as opposed to get this. answer get this clip make it short let. it we want to get our how we feel across. and that's what matters you know it's. more like the fullness of it right you. know there's this line I thought about. this quite a bit in terms of truth I. mentioned earlier the difference between. telling the truth and being truthful. like someone who's just trying trying to. call it as they say it trying to be. truthful you know when you when you. swear to do J service or actually to. kind of do testimony you swear what do. you swear you swear to tell the the.

whole. truth the truth nothing but the truth. the whole truth the truth the whole. truth and nothing but the truth truth. they make you triple down on it right. but think about that why didn't they. just say I promise to tell the truth. right the truth yes the whole truth and. nothing but the truth right and actually. the middle one is really interesting to. me because of course what you could do. is you could go to the stand and say the. say things that are kind of true right. so you meet the first and the second. third but like yeah but you're missing. something out and I think right now.

people are hungry for the whole truth. they're actually hungry for people to. just look I'm saying it all I don't. agree you know you might disagree with. three of the seven things I've said but. there's actually a kind of sense of. which these. conversations I think are trying to get. at something more like the whole truth. which is more just a broader conception. of it and you you have the opportunity. in the space to maybe get stuff wrong to. just think out loud to kind of come back. and that's completely at odds with the. old media which is more about I'm going. to take every word you say literally.

yeah right I'm going to take a clip of. it and I'm going to fact check you and. I'm like that's not how conversations. work and this is a very different kind. of environment for conversation I agree. with you that it means you have more. authenticity but the thing I've come to. Value more than almost anything else. when I'm talking to someone is that this. person is trying to be truthful they are. they're being on it they're looking. stuff up they're trying to figure if say. to them that's not right it's this they. go oh interesting I got to tr and the. same with me and I'm just aspiring to.

try and be truthful in everything that I. do and if I get it wrong I want to be. told I'm getting it wrong but I just. want to try and be as honest as possible. yeah yeah and I think then it makes it. not about you it makes it about this. greater presentation of like um of Let's. uh let's yeah let's just be let's be as. honest as we can right and learn from. each other so one of one of my weird. backstories is that I am am a massive. fan of John Stewart Mill the 19th. century British liberal philosopher so.

much so that I ended up writing his. biography John Stewart Mill let's bring. up a JPEG of him this is just making my. day I got to tell you oh wow um he also. was the first person to introduce a bill. to give women the right to vote in the. in the UK obviously he was trying to get. laid too undenied that in his case was. almost certainly not true although I. spent a lot of time enjoyed I spent a. lot of no no he was just well he. actually the truth is that he had a. woman who was in love with who was. married to somebody else oh and so it.

was an unrequited situation and so I. spent quite a bit of time around that. but he had this lovely idea which is. that we learned from each other right we. share we said we share the truth between. us and he said that when you're arguing. with someone disagreeing with someone. try to imagine that you're both trying. to climb to the top of the same Mountain. just by different routes and I love that. idea and when I'm trying to debate with. someone now if I'm disagreeing with. someone I'm like you know I think I'm. trying to get to they probably have got. some truth that I don't have and that's.

great but also let's assume let's start. with the assumption that we're trying to. get to the same place yeah right and. you've got a different view about it so. if I'm arguing with a conservative who. says it's all about marriage right got. to get everyone back to marriage and I'm. like I'm a bit skeptical about that I. don't think that's because that person's. a crazy right-wing misogynist who wants. to kind of in trap women again I think I. think they want a better life I think. they want better families I think they. want happier children which is what I. want right so just arguing about the. means it is kind of interesting how you. can have two people that want the exact. same thing they'll one will say that.

they're this side one will say they're. that side and they cannot agree on [ __ ]. there I don't understand there's some. minutia in there that I can't even. figure out yeah because it's they want. the exact same things they' even they. could even write these are the three. things I want and they and the other. side write these are the three things I. want but if they don't each say that. they are on the same side yeah then they. will dis find they almost find a way to. disag because they want to dis agree. because at that point that's become kind. of a bad form of tribalism there's this. really interesting one of the things.

that really has Disturbed me about. political Trends recently is the. clustering of ideas now and so actually. now if you're on one side or the other. you have to like agree with I agree like. and so it used to be more possible to. kind of like well I agree with that side. on this and this side on this and. whatever and everyone was a kind of. different mixture right the idea that. anybody is going to subscribe to all the. views on the left or all the views on. the right dystopian terrifying and no. one even knows all them either and. they're all so distorted anyway yeah and. then if and if they're told by the way.

that that policy idea is being proposed. by your guy then they suddenly support. it right and if it's being proposed by. like if it's being proposed by the other. guy you're suddenly against it and so. what's actually happening now is you're. defining your position based as much on. well what does he think because I don't. like him and I'll take the other view. right so you saw this massive swing. towards being much more pro-immigration. for example among Democrats after Donald. Trump came to office in 2016 because he. was so anti-immigration right before. that Democrats were pretty moderate on.

immigration but they suddenly became. really really pro-immigration. why the only explanation why is because. he was so anti- it and you see it in. both directions right you can see I mean. well some people say also though that. they wanted to um load States up so that. they could create more voters in certain. States you know I've never understood. that argument really yeah because they. can't vote right but if you legalize if. you just bring them in and then you find. quick paths to legalization then they. would be able to vote well one thing I. will say I hope that if that idea is.

still out there that the results of the. last election kill it for good because. we saw a massive swing to the. Republicans among Hispanic Americans and. given that most of the immigrants that. people are worried about are from Mexico. and Southern America I don't know if. they are though I think a lot of the. immigrants that we're getting are also. from like we they were getting like so. many Haitians and right but they're not. reliable Democrat voters is my point. right so any idea that like the. Democrats are trying to do this because.

they think well if we bring them all in. and then legalize them yay well they. well that's not true right the idea that. those groups are just going to reliably. vote Democrat that has gone out of the. window I don't know I think if I come in. and somebody's feeding me the first hand. that feeds me that's probably the hand. that I would think that I'm going to. cater to I don't know if that's a. definite thing that they were doing you. know what I'm saying it's hard to say if. it is or isn't but letting 21 million. immigrants in you know I mean we had two.

border patrol agents on and they said it. was it was a nightmare for them you know. it was a nightmare for them and their. families the stress that they went. through um the fact that they would just. have to get a an agreement from somebody. that they would come and meet the agent. like or a middle person they would like. have like a connection piece to America. um and they'd have to sign an agreement. that they would come back and meet that. person at a certain time or place and. never show up and then there's no Trail. for them it was a the plan was not there. was no plan it felt like that's a better.

explanation than that there was this. secret plan to create millions of Voters. I don't know if there are or not that's. a no plan is better and again it's an. example of like the extremes winning. right it's like actually most people. have probably got pretty moderate views. on immigration or at least used to which. is we should control our borders which. is not a controversial idea in any other. country in the world you can't know bu. unless you know the inventory right how. can you do anything it's not like the. idea in any European country that like.

people should only be there legally like. every European country thinks that right. so it's not of course we've now had so. many people come in that we've got a. different problem but we just SC our. borders we should actually have pretty. good legal immigration systems I'm. biased I'm biased I'm an immigrant but. like like good legal immigration has. been great for this country properly. controlled legal good right and so the. idea that you're either for or against. against immigration strikes me as. completely dumb you've got to be what. kind of immigration do we need and want. yeah you got to think a little step.

further but right but the trouble is the. way that our politics works right now is. you've basically either got to be like. anti-immigration and anti- immigrants or. you've got to be open border I mean. exaggerating a bit but like that's how. it feels yeah I agree that's how it. feels that well that's another issue. that we just have we don't have enough. parties we don't have enough parties and. there's not enough um and I think that. it's also kept that way as you know. capital ism is just you know there's. only so much you can do you know it's. like you can't you can only do so much.

and then there's a lot of Darker forces. that play I think that just care about. finances on no matter what side of. things you're on and then I don't even. know if America still owns itself. anymore to be honest with you I feel. like we're just a LLC of the Middle East. sometimes but you know different people. think different things you know I really. the thing that I worry most about is. that we lose our sense of optimism. I agree that's the next thing to go and. when that goes it gets it gets that's. bad for any country but I think it's. virtually existential for America.

because one of the things that people. always say about Americans they're like. ah they don't think about they have no. sense of History you know whereas like. in Europe like all we think about is. history right like in the UK one things. I ran away from is just like it's always. Winston Churchill and World War II and. World War I and the war of the rooses. and I I I have relatives who fought in. those Wars I'm not like they're. important but like we're always looking. basically Europe feels like it kind of. has been looking in the rearview mirror. right for centuries whereas Americans. are like yeah that happened that was. interesting but we're going there we're.

going to the Moon we're going to. wherever we're going like we're we're. going to build a better economy there's. this there is this thing about like. looking forward which I've always loved. about America it's one of the reasons I. wanted to come here I wanted to finish. raising my kids here like that future. orientation corette and I really I worry. about that on both sides now right I. don't like you have American Carnage you. know from the right and you have climate. catastrophe from the left take your pick. but that catastrophizing that sense for. the first time ever we're seeing people. now say that they are not confident.

their kids will be better off than them. yeah that's a huge problem in a country. like America and I think it's based on. this problem we were just talking about. which is this kind of Zero Sum idea that. like somehow there's only so much of. something to go around money or empathy. or whatever and so if group a is getting. more of it that means Group B is getting. less of it right so it's the same with. the male female thing exactly it's like. well like we can't if women are doing.

better maybe that's why men are doing. worse and for women to rise men have got. a for like crazy stuff but people think. that same on immigration by the way. people think more immigrants bad for. America Etc we're constantly thinking. about zero sum whereas America at its. best has always been positive sum in. other words we can grow we grow the cake. and argue less about how to divide it up. we can all be more we can get better we. can get bigger and like all rise and I. think that's been lost not least on. gender but let's talk about some escapes. for men let's talk about how do men you.

know how do we combat like some of this. illness and the because men are. resilient men are warriors I believe in. our hearts and um and in our spirits and. I believe that I've seen enough. connectivity amongst men that we want um. to move forward right and we want to do. it together what are ways that you. recommend um mhm well we've talked about. male spaces and having like groups and. spaces for men I think so starting one. of those is good if you yeah and if.

you're like and you're seeing that. there's this thing called The Men's. sheds movement have you heard of that. it's coming over from Australia it's. just guys who get into like a shed and. start fixing stuff together really bring. it up shoulder toh shoulder the men's. sheds movement oh I love it's basically. about like guides and they get in a shed. and they fix stuff right and it's very. male because it's about fixing stuff us. men shed assoc Association has partnered. with grouper to offer eligible members a. 65 or older payments for staying healthy. and socially active Okay so the men's. sheds can you do an image of it just us.

men can we just do men's shed movement. images oh there's some fellas right. there building a little uh like cuz like. when men what is that a birdh house or. something men have to be doing something. else while they're a Rob while they're. being together right not just right it's. just harder for us to just be together. like like when was the last time a. friend of you said let's just meet for. coffee and then sit down and stare at. each other for two hours yeah that guy. is obviously trying to be like sexy. buddies or whatever I think and I think.

yeah you got to find something to do. together paint something look for. something let's go look for something be. of service find service I think that's. hugely important boys and girls like uh. join your local Boys and Girls Club chap. or you can volunteer there um what's. another one you a champion like you can. be uh you can be a big brother yeah that. was a good one I'm just going through. the process for that myself I'm signing. up to do that cuz I do that being like. just I know you talked to Scott about. this but just being a presence I think. is usually important and like raising. other people's kids like there's this.

line it takes a village to raise a child. that's true but here's the thing some of. the villages need to be men and like we. we're in that village and we're helping. to raise those kids our neighbors kids. you know it does gen that statement that. it takes a village is right oh you don't. realize as a parent if there's a kid. hanging out of your house sometimes one. of your kids friends or something you. have a ton of influence on that kid. totally I mean I got so much influence. from most of my influence you you. realize how important how many men there. are out there who sometimes just kind of.

need to be asked there was this example. happened in a school I think it was a. predominantly black school and they had. this day where they were going to teach. the boys how to tie. tie and the dads were going to come in. with their sons and kind of teach their. sons how to tie a tie but then they. realized that half the dads were not. there half the boys didn't have D didn't. have fathers uh or their fathers were in. prison or they'd gone away or whatever. and so they then really realized this. was going to be a huge problem because. they going to some of the boys were. going to have their dad come in and do.

it and the others are going to feel left. out so they just did a a call out to the. community I think it just I don't even. know what it was like a Facebook call. like could could we get some volunteers. we just need some men to kind of come in. and help these boys kind they had. something like five times as many men as. they needed to these guys just all came. it's really beautiful so so men are. looking for it yes just need to be some. asked and and called and the other thing. I'll say because we haven't had a chance. to talk about this yet is that the the. fact that male teachers have become so.

much less common I think is a real. problem it's gone from 33% male in the '. 80s to 23% male now and continues to. fall and I think that's a problem for. all kinds of reasons I think that for. boys to sort of see men in the classroom. to actually have them as Role Models. also to see the education is a thing. that like men care about as well oh it's. a great Point yeah one of my greatest. influences was this guy Charles Alder he. was my teacher he was missing a finger. and um but how did he lose his finger. you know what happened to him he was at.

a baseball game cheering on his son he. stood up his wedding ring got caught on. a piece of metal on the bleachers and. pulled his finger right off I you know I. wish I hadn't ask now but God bless him. pretty crazy and my dad was missing a. finger and so I just related I was like. oh God wants these men without fingers. to love me or whatever you know that's. how I was thinking as a kid it was just. CRA but that's how you think as a kid. yeah okay so he was huge influence on. you yeah right and I had yeah same for. me I had this teacher Mr Wyatt English. teacher and up until that point we were.

like you know words and poems W. [ __ ] and a bunch of 15 16 year old boys. and then we had Mr Wyatt and Mr Wyatt. was a Korean War veteran he was a bus. driver in part-time he was total kudin. and he had us reading Korean bus driver. sounds very risk Korean veteran he'. fought. in the Korean War yeah and he was just. like this kinly guy but he had us. reading this poetry and he loved it so.

much that we ended up loving it and. getting into it and I was like huh maybe. this whole writing words thing I used to. be in remedial English way back before. that but maybe it's hey maybe maybe guys. can do this too and it was a huge change. for me and I I mentioned before that you. know my my son is now is teaching in. Baltimore City that's one but we're like. missing about a million men if we were. to get close to you know G gender. equality I'm not saying we'll get to. that but I think that the best answer to. sort of some of the problems that a lot.

of boys have got is real living flesh. and blood men in their lives their dads. their neighbors their uncles but also. their teachers and the other thing the. other thing male teachers do they coach. between 30 and 40% of male teachers are. also coaches much higher than for women. for all kinds of reasons we could go. into but the point is simply that for. every male teacher you get like half a. coach right and so if we want more male. coaches to be coaching our boys sports.

teams Etc we need more male teachers and. I can't believe that we're just letting. the share of male teachers just go down. and down and down and down and no one's. doing anything about it especially even. we had a great TV show here called. Prince Vice principles or whatever and. that [ __ ] you think would have helped it. was with Dan um Danny McBride was in it. how long ago was that it's a couple. years ago so it might take it might help. a little bit but definitely it might. have up The Vibes of some of these guys. being teachers also like ABA do you know. Abba Elementary yeah people like that TV.

show that's got a bunch of male teachers. in it too which is like so maybe you. just need influence that like I remember. when I was a kid they had coach was on. and stuff like that but I guess it. didn't really resonate that much but. they had like um what was that TV art uh. Dead Poet Society or whatever they Robin. Williams yeah but I guess we there was. um the one with um they sh up with Teek. man uh who's that guy Malcolm L L. Jackson or whatever that guy's name was. uh no it's uh he looks like kind of uh.

older but still they said it would take. a man 600 years to get out of this here. prison you know what I'm talking about. he talks like that no he's um that was a. good accent but I than he's in sha Shank. Redemption you know what his name his. name is like Morgan Freeman he played a. school teacher really lean on me it was. oh yeah yeah yeah but this new one. there's this other one the holdovers U. couple like a couple years ago um with. Paul gamti that I saying his name right. yes I saw that yeah really good and what.

those things have in common is there's. this kind of Rel this relationship. between this kind of older guy this kind. of younger man and they kind of learn. from each other and they go through some. stuff together end and it's like it's. really beautiful yes um it was that's a. cool Point that's a great movie and it. this and it's kind of I was really. pleased to see that uh because it came. up again with this thing but one of the. things that really frustrates me is. people will say ah boys need more you. know we need more positive male role. models and I'm like we do it's actually. you can't create them out of thin air. right you can't just like add add water.

and create male role model but one thing. we could do is make sure we have a lot. more men in our schools right that's. something we could do we could have. scholarships we could have Outreach. programs we could be incentivizing men. we could also be making it much easier. to become a teacher as like a second. career because one of the things that we. know is that men are much more likely to. go into teaching later ah right they do. something else first and then go but. it's really hard to do that well it. shouldn't be that hard no I agree that. that's a great point we start instead of.

lenting the lack of male role models how. about how about having more male. teachers and I would love it if more. politicians I I actually was kept. waiting for Tim wals on the Democrat. side we asked him to come on here we. asked him and KLA to come on here but I. would have Lov to have talked with Tim. Walls Tim wall would have been a perfect. person to kind lead that campaign. wouldn't he to his whole interview he. just that he seemed like this cheery. kind of guy you know but he's like high. school high school teacher yeah so he. was the first actually career public. school teacher to run for such high. office he was also a coach imagine if.

he' done a campaign around like we want. to recruit more men to teaching we want. more men teaching coaching helping like. a really positive PR male campaign I. think he would have been an amazing. spokesman for that and I think could. have been bipartisan I think could have. found some people on the right that. would have agreed with that yeah I think. I I don't know if he it felt like all. the time like he was making all of his. own choices that's the only thing about. some of these parties you start to. wonder too much control if there's. bigger Powers it and then you're like. and you can feel that sometimes it feels. like but I don't know some well it's. back to this point about the different.

medor environment now right which is. this freewheeling be authent like just. go with the flow yeah kind of. environment now that I think people. people like watch the politicians in. those environments so they can make a. judgment about what kind of person they. are it's not scripted right they get a. feel they get a feel for them exactly. some of them ask they like can we do we. get edit or something like Timothy sham. came on they didn't ask for one edit. they didn't ask to look at anything they. didn't ask I was like that's wild you. know I mean but they didn't and then. we've had other people come on and their. you know their agent or whatever we get.

all [ __ ] nitpicky or whatever some. little [ __ ] lizard and uh well ask to. edit stuff out or just like say certain. things now I didn't know that was if. something horrible happens somebody dies. or something we'll edit it out you know. it's like we don't want something. horrible or somebody turning blue you. know what I'm talking about somebody. can't breathe or whatever like yeah. we're not going to [ __ ] sit there and. ask questions to somebody who doesn't. but anything short of that so if if I. die brain you might you might edit that. out but anything else I do like but it's.

just crazy that you know no you can't. control it but actually this is what. happened I think this is a great example. right before he was selected like wal he. was like famous for being you know he. did the weird thing and he was quite you. know he just he was like but no no he. described the Republicans as weird. that's what I mean like he just had a. certain I think that's but actually what. happened was that then he was like told. to be super careful and you get these po. Ians they sometimes remind me like. they're like a guy carrying an. incredibly precious vase across a. polished floor you know they're so.

terrified they're going to slip and say. the wrong thing right and that kind. everyone's like be disciplined don't say. anything wrong we don't want to screw up. the news cycle don't have a gaff don't. like don't don't say something exactly. just stand still don't say anything hope. for the best that's crazy but I do think. that was the old politics I think it was. all about message discipline and I think. that the wals before the pick and the. wals after the pick if you watch them. they're totally different people I know. I still wish he would come on and talk. we that's a good point I'm going to. reach out again we even try to get kamla.

after to see if she would come on and. talk to because you I that's the only. thing I just felt like you don't know. who some of these people are you know. it's like and not even that you do after. a conversation there's still a. politician right but at a certain point. you just can get a feel for him and also. people at home can just get a feel you. know just you want a little bit more. feel these days you had Bernie on. recently right yeah it was great have. you had him on before we had so much fun. no I'd have him on again though dude we. had a blast we just have so many things. that you know we both care about it. seems like um yes so so men so places.

that men can get involved it's like a. big brother program like do know this. about Big Brother program if you're only. going to be in town for like a couple. weeks make sure it's going to be a place. where you're going to be able to commit. like cuz you're saying to a a child or. something I'm going be there every other. week or every two at least at least a. year in fact the evidence is that if you. do it for less than a year it's actually. harmful right better to not do it at all. right if you can't do it for a year so. that's something right there even just. men get in together to like take a walk. together think together you know spend. time together it's like how do we start. to build those new things um and also.

some of that is like the cycle has. changed you know a lot of our energy. came from uh Wars and stuff you know and. there were a lot more bowling leagues. there's a book book it's called bowling. alone maybe yeah Robert putam yeah all. about what he calls Social Capital which. is basically just this connection and. community and how important that is for. people and he talks about the decline of. bowling leagues which are basically just. structures through which to have this. solidarity right yeah it's just hiding. from your wife for an hour and you and.

your buddies calling each other fat. right but that's what men need sometimes. right but you can't say to your wife I'm. going out to just hang out with the guys. and call each other fat you have to say. I've got bowling tonight right there has. to be a thing right I've got darts. tonight I've got kind of whatever it's a. thing right it's not just I'm not we we. can't just say I'm just going to maybe a. bit more now but like you needed like a. a and I think it's a deeper truth truth. that men do need a reason sometimes to. kind of be together and that's just okay. right yeah yeah you don't want to tell.

your wife yeah I'm just going to hang. you know it's like yeah I'm going to do. something that's a man thing too is. doing something like we're creatures. that are supposed to be in action right. it's like the more sedentary I get you. know like I just notice that it's like. if I do the next right thing I'm. supposed to do everything goes fine the. second I stand around and think it's. like things get a little weird yeah just. a bit of forward momentum right do the. next thing yeah it's just keep it moving. and ites it helps you but then yeah um. but what was I thinking oh I was um I. wrote down was I making a point there or.

no I can't remember I wrote down this. this question because I thought a lot. about this like men and women stuff. right and and I'm glad that we talked a. lot about it like just cuz yeah women. have had this sort of evolution in a way. um societally and um financially and. they had to do that it felt like to get. more respect and maybe if there had been. a different respect in the beginning. things could have been different we live. in a capitalistic Society type of thing. um and so I wrote down what I wanted to. say because it was too hard for me to to. remember and say so it just said I was.

saying it seems like through the. feminist movements and trying to make. more gender equality um Clos the income. gap Etc that women were striving to have. what men had such as more income such as. more Equitable treatment such as being. able to strive in the workforce having. more access to educational opportunities. Etc that women wanted more power or what. was conceived of as power and in a. capitalistic Society money is power but.

is it really power though I think it is. pretty lonely and disconnected when men. achieve the status of being powerful. either through a lot of recognition or. wealth or just producing a lot in. general I'm not saying that men could. not have this type of power and not be. connected to the world around them and. people around them but I think for most. men it was basically lonely and. disconnected is this what women really. want when it comes to Equitable. treatment Etc or having the same. opportunities for financial success and. upward Mobility do women really want.

what men have or had I wonder if women. are really the ones that generally. speaking have it right as far as being. connected to others being able to. communicate better generally and. providing more of a home in the sense of. a settled space around themselves. wherever they go or wherever they are I. think it's interesting that in trying to. balance out male and female the female. wants to move towards the male I get it. but I just wonder if maybe it made more. sense to have the male move towards the. female and I don't mean that men should.

be women what I do mean though is that. these attributes that women seem to. possess base primarily on their sex and. some gender roles seem to be more. fulfilling overall so wouldn't it make. more sense that the men would move a. little closer to them or the women would. tout that what they have is good enough. and it is best instead in said of going. ahead and trying to get what the men. have um uh like I said I get it and I. can understand why women want what they.

perceive men as having I just wonder if. that's really the best direction for. women and for children and for men and. boys and for people in general do we. really want to show our children that. women can Dominate and produce in the. same ways that men can personally I I. don't really think so I think men have. it wrong I think that the men should be. masculine and women should be feminine. but I think that the expression of. masculin generally speaking in our. society has been kind of weak and kind. of disconnected and honestly sometimes. kind of dumb um sorry that was so much.

words good but I just did I was trying. to like I was like I can't remember this. but I this is like what I think you know. like it's not a clown on women or that. their Journey or anything it's just like. what are what are we all really looking. for you know yeah I think we're a really. important moment for that I think I I I. see the movement of the last let's say. 50 years as largely being about women. trying to get more economic independence. I don't I don't really like the language.

of power around this because it tends to. presume that it's like power of person a. over power of person B it's much more. like opportunity Independence chance to. flourish to be you to yeah to let. yourself be seen to let your yes and. that's and to feel equal to feel like oh. I I can do these things as well to get. equal respect and and and I I feel like. we've been so I think this sense of like. if you think about the more female. virtues do use your framing as being. more about like care and connection and. so on and the more male ones being.

around kind of material money Etc I do. think that it was quite right for women. to have more opportunities to acquire. more of that Economic Opportunity yes. right and economic independent quite. right now I think that we might see the. next 50 years are about some of movement. in the other direction which is that men. also learning that like it's not. actually just getting to the top of the. economic ladder is like that's not what. life is about it's important to provide. it's important to bring material.

resources to your family to your tribe. to your community but it's also. important to have those relationships. and that care and if that's seen as more. of a female virtue then I agree that we. might see a little bit more movement now. toward of men towards women but in the. end it's just about creating. opportunities for all of us to be able. to flourish and to rise and to do that. together yeah and to have equal respect. for what we each choose to. do without one set being dependent on. the other without one group having power.

over the other without one group being. seen to be better than the other or one. set of Virtues being better than the. other yeah and instead to just say look. we're all in the end I hope that my work. focusing on boys and men is partly in. the end humanism it's partly about the. end like we want to get to a world where. we're all able to kind of flour flish. together and we're not going to get. there if we pretend there are no. differences between men and women we're. not going to get to equality through.

androgyny right pretending there are no. differences between men and women right. but we can learn from each other and. isn't that amazing isn't that an amazing. opportunity and so I think the. opportunities for men now to kind of. grow and expand our roles as Fathers as. coaches as mentors as Community leaders. in the home in the community whilst also. I think building staff and providing in. other words reforming masculinity rather. than ditching it and saying we don't. need masculinity anymore or somehow.

trying to get the old kind of. masculinity back so I think when I'm. feeling optimistic and it's good to be. optimistic sometimes I actually think. what we what we're experiencing now is. like the birth pangs of like a different. way yeah right and I think it's all been. about women up until now and I think. that's understandable but I think the. next few decades have got to be about. how do we help men as well how do we. help men rise not instead of women but. with women and women rise with men yeah. and how do we even yeah how do we just. yeah and evolution takes it takes pain.

you know it takes discomfort for. everyone changes hard yes change is hard. and also I think though you look at like. people having the time to do things in. the evenings and stuff um it's like we. create you know like a lot of people. live in separate households I talk about. it with the holidays the holidays are. bummer a lot of times now because you. got to go visit both your parents have. been married two times and divorced now. you're visit visiting six people or. something on a you're dividing your. Christmas up there it's you know it's. like we're dividing up the the.

the the Comfort we had you know and it's. becoming a nightmare because you're. having to drive so many places to see so. many people like um but I I I think the. spirit of what you're saying throughout. this whole conversation has been about. equal empathy and respect for men and. women and I feel like there was probably. a time when like if women complained. about stuff and wanted more power men. would be like patronizing or maybe roll. their eyes at them a little bit like oh. God you know off she goes again right. but I now think the opposite is. happening I think when we talk about.

some of the problems that men are having. and men saying I'm struggling I'm trying. to figure this out there's sometimes a. tendency for people to roll their eyes. and just say well get over it and. neither of those responses is good. enough we need to kind of look each. other in the eye and just say look I'm. here for you let's figure this out. together yeah and not pit us against. each other the thing I really worry. about is particularly politically right. now that we're somehow going to end up. young men and young women seeing each. other as somehow not on the same team as. against each other you see this growing. political divide cultural divide less. dating I think it will be really bad.

news if we don't see young men and women. seeing that their interests as being. more aligned than in antagonism with. each other yeah well politics is just. it's a societal structure I know it's at. some point it's something you need for. um diplomacy and stuff but I don't even. I feel like it's been so commandeered. who I don't think most people even know. what it is anymore or don't believe in. the uh sanctity of it um but I do think. that in the end you that other humans. are your real government mhm you know.

your neighbor is your government you. know it's Norms it's the atmosph it's. the like yes your tradition whatever. you're you know and I think it is men. need to just wake up shave put on a. clean shirt and be ready for you know. whatever blessings do come with the. things that they create for themselves. too I think some of it is like just. showing up for the day in the world um. but also we need if we could it would be. nice we need to what the [ __ ] do I know. but it'd be nice if families were. together and that um that everybody. didn't have all these separate homes to. go it was just everything didn't feel so.

divided I feel like even managing a life. feels very dividing for a kid when one. week they're here one week we're there. and then the parents are separate and. they probably sit there you know yeah. maybe they go on and but they wish maybe. they' had been able to figure I I don't. know what do I know I think I'm I'm I. romanticize a lot but it can be like the. key thing is the relationships right. that's like I found this very. interesting study that said that kids. whose father is not resident with the. mother doesn't live with the mom anymore. but has a good relationship with them. they do better than the kids whose dad. is with them but they have a terrible.

relationship with and so it's like it's. it's in the end it's the relationship. that matters like your point about like. care and nurturing sometimes I think we. obsess about the structure and we don't. actually think no actually what really. matters here is the substance what's the. relationship like and so one of the. reason I feel so strongly about that is. because so many kids now like most kids. to parents without college degrees are. born outside marriage most like that's. the norm outside of the college educated. class and so I don't want to say to.

those fathers oh well sorry you've. already failed right you don't right. that's you're bench the dads right right. and so uh it's incredibly important that. fathers hear the message that they. matter in their kids' lives that's a. great Point whether or not they are with. the kid's mother and in some ways if. they're not with the kid's mother. romantically anymore the father might be. more important because there's a good. chance that that kid going to be. struggling in other ways and so there is. no pass for fatherhood if you become a. father it doesn't matter how you ended.

up having that kid you have a moral. responsibility to be there for that kid. period that is not unnegotiable now you. may or may not be married to the mom and. I'm not saying it isn't easier but you. know to be married to but right but that. doesn't really that doesn't really make. it different always no and also like and. also don't don't point at these dads who. for whatever reason are not married to. Mom and blame them yeah yeah yeah I. think I had I just have this romantic. view but yeah I think if if yeah being a. father is just being a father it's like. and also what do I know what the [ __ ] am.

I talking and it never ends I mean I'll. say that it. um it doesn't end with being a father. like one of the I mentioned my my own. father my dad earlier um and watching. him as a. grandfather to my sons has also been an. extraordinary experience and made me. think about I'm already thinking about. what kind of Grandfather I'm going to be. my sons are all in their 20s now uh from. late 20s to early 20s and so that's the.

next stage for me and I'll tell you like. my one of my sons really struggled uh in. high school he's the one who's now. become a teacher uh and he when he went. went to college he chose to go to. college back to the UK but not just back. to the UK he went back to Cardiff in. Wales where my parents live cuz he. wanted to be near my parents and he told. me once that on a day when he was really. if he was really struggling he get out. you know some mental health issues. whatever uh he was really struggling he.

would look he could look when he was. walking to his lectures at College he. could look to the north and a couple of. miles north there's this big tower of a. hospital right next to the where my. parents live and he said to me even on a. really bad day I know that I can look up. there and I know that Grandpa's there. and if I need him he'll. come and I thought I want my grandsons. and granddaughters saying that about me. one day too and and so the point is like. as parents you do the best you can and.

then as Grandparents you help out and. then as uncles or nephews or neighbors. or mentors you kind of help out but it. it it this it never ends H and that's. not a bad thing it's a good thing it's a. it's a beautiful thing and I I as a as a. father to see my father being such an. amazing support for my in cuz you're in. the middle I'm in the middle and guess. what sometimes maybe Granddad is going. to be the better person for your son in.

this moment than you are and what a. amazing blessing that is to have that I. feel so incredibly fortunate that my. kids have had that opportunity to have. that relationship with the grandparents. so I've gone from thinking oh god really. grandfather I have to do it all over. again really to being like you know what. yeah this could be good yeah it's a. apprciate you thinking about stuff this. stuff with Richard and I know there's a. lot of other things we could talk about. too about um recovery programs in 12st. step we could save that for another. conversation anytime I feel like we've.

had I feel like this has been a nice. conversation and um just some good food. for thought and and not to harp on man. or what's going on and if you feel. uncomfortable it's like I think there is. that there's a sense inside of a lot of. us of like what do we do where where is. my purpose and um and where is that. coming from you know and um and that's. okay yeah yeah yeah thank you I've. really really enjoyed this me too. Richard I appreciate it Richard Reeves. you have books out don't you yeah of. boys and men okay excellent and how do.

people um if people want to get involved. with your organization what uh do they. just donate is there volunteer. possibilities or what are the things. donations would be great but yeah so. it's a ibm. org aibb m.org uh there's. there is a donate button there we'd love. your support but also the main thing is. just to be part of this conversation uh. and let's have a positive conversation. ation about boys and men without putting. down women and girls and just love the. men and boys in your life like just. that's the mission I'm on I feel called. to this work now and I'm I'm excited to.

be part of it I love hearing about it. man and I appreciate you just being. patient with me to to today while we. just kind of had this conversation and. um yeah this was a great practice for me. and just like uh learning to talk and. think about things together um it's. amazing that you want to get more into. the space thank you yeah just so. important man and I'm going to have a uh. an ad too at the end of this for Valor. recovery it's a um. sexual uh uh sex and love addiction uh. group that we um that I associate with. and so uh if you're struggling with porn.

addiction and that sort of thing you are. animacy disorders anything if you are. just struggling with something we can um. that's a great program right there and. uh my great friend Steve started it and. I've been in recovery with him for years. and just blessed man blessed to be on. this journey and and just know that. other men are on it too and trying to. figure it out and you know stay alive d. kind of gives you some you know what's. weird it kind of gives you a little bit. of purpose yeah you know what I'm saying. yeah no and that life without purpose is. not life it sure isn't man um thank you.

so much Richard re you bet. Justa and I'm falling like these leaves. I must be. [Music]. Cornerstone oh but when I reach that. ground I'll share this piece of my life. found I can feel it. in my. bones but it's going to.