Retired Las Vegas Police Sgt. | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #584

We want to let you know that today's. conversation may be a bit graphic for. some or gruesome. Um it's containing law. enforcement and um some of their. involvement just with society. So if you. don't like that sort of thing, you may. not want to listen. Today's guest is a. retired sergeant from the Las Vegas. Metropolitan Police Department and a. former crisis negotiator. He was born. and raised in Queens, New York before. spending 20 years on the force in Las. Vegas where he pretty much saw it all.

Today's guest is LVPD's finest, Christopher Curtis. Shine on. me and I will find a song. I've been. singing. [Applause]. [Music]. Okay. Sitting here today. Um, retired. police officer, Sergeant. Sorry. And is. that a that's a that's a thing with.

police? Yeah. Pop. Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. For Yes, sir. All right, sir. Yes, sir. um retired police sergeant. Yes. From the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police. Department. Las Vegas Metropolitan. Police Department. You did 25 years of. service. I Well, I did 21 plus and then. um I bought some of the time. A guy. actually bought my time out to go work. for him afterwards. In Nevada, you can. do that. So, you can So, if you're a. police officer and you have you still. have so many years left on your um lease.

or what is it called to collect your. retirement? Okay. Right. Okay. Okay. So, you want to get you your pension, right? So, you can buy it yourself. But what. happened was I was one of the first. people cuz there was a guy in the. private sector. You ever heard of the. company Zapos? Zapos. The shoes. Yeah, the shoes. So, the guy Tony Shay who. passed away some time ago, he was a. billionaire and he Yeah, he had one foot. in the grave. That's an old Zapos guy. I. won't tell anymore. He um he was revitalizing downtown Las. Vegas and he was investing 350 million. into it and he heard about me doing some.

innovative things down there and uh he. he through a friend he asked to meet me. at a bar and so we meet at this bar and. I'm like this Tony Shay like this and he. says um he told me about the project and. he's like would you like to come work. for me? I was like, "I'm not old enough. to retire and I don't have, you know, the time." And he said, "Uh, can you buy? How much does it. cost?" And I said, "I have to get back. to you." But I knew it was a significant. six-f figureure number. And, uh, I got. back to him with a number and he wrote.

the check. And so at like 21 years on. April Fool's Day of 2013, I retired. So. he paid your So he bought it. So at a. certain So if you want to collect a. retirement, you have to do at least a. certain amount of time. You get vested. in the state system. Got it. So to make. it worthwhile, to make it a significant. amount of money, you want to do at least. 25 years. I mean 20 years you could do. it, but at 25 years and 30 years the. money's pretty nice. Yeah. And so to get. to 25 at the time he wanted me to. retire, you needed to buy it and it was. six figures and he wrote the check. Wow.

And so and within like a couple days you. were done. No, what I pl I kind of was. strategic about it and I planned it out. and I wanted to see exactly what his. process was and he was a very very smart. guy and a very forwardinking guy. So we. kind of planned behind the scenes how to. work it out and so I had enough time to. set everything up and then April Fool's. Day uh I retired. Wow. And he paid off. How many years did he pay off? So it. turn it turned out to be like maybe like. uh three and a almost four years. Basically four years. Yeah. And at that. point you started working for him at.

that point. I started working for him. Yeah. So I had my my full police. retirement and then I had a significant. salary from him. So that was nice. Living in Vegas still at that time? I. was still living in Vegas. I had to. because I had to be kind of working in. that project downtown. Can I give you. something? Actually, I brought something. for you. Yeah, sure. I, you know, I'm a. I'm a fan, man. I I really like what you. do and I I think you're awesome and I. figured I could give you something a. Vegas souvenir. So, um, open that up. Okay. A. coaster. Oh, this a beverage coaster.

Police managers supervisor association. Las Vegas Metro badge. Huh? Now, now. open it up. Okay. And look at the back. Gang boy. Commemorative only. Thank God. Yeah. So you don't go out and start. jacking people. Okay. Yeah. I wanted you. to have a badge, man. And so then you. can just put it on this little uh thing. and then you can put in one of your. places, man. You do a lot of really cool. stuff, man. When I when I came into. town, man, and the people I talked to,

you know, small group of people, everyone really thinks very very highly. of you, man. I watched your stuff. You're a good dude, man. Well, thanks. Chris, man. I appreciate you saying. that, dude. That's awesome. Yeah, because we need some You got to put it. back in the thing in order to hold it in. there. Oh, that's fair. Yeah. God, that. should Yeah. And I worked in zoning for. a little bit, so sorry. That should have. made sense. Um, dude, that's awesome, man. Thank you very much. Yeah, we have. a nice little collection of some neat. stuff that people have given us. Well, now you got a badge. Yeah, that's very, very thoughtful of you. Thank you. Thank. you, man. Yeah. And thank you for your.

service, too. Right on. Um, dude, I'll. tell you a story. So, one time I'm at. the University of Tennessee football. game and some guy and he was like a. drunk guy and he was like, you know, he. just kept making sounds like that and. just like and he could breathe but he. wasn't great at it, you know, he put on. some weight or whatever and he was a. sheriff or something, you know. And uh I. was like, I need to go downstairs and. use the restroom. He's like, oh well, if. anybody gives you any problems, just. show them this. He gave me his sheriff's. badge, right? In a little flet. It comes. in like a little wallet. So I'm.

downstairs, dude, right? Things start. kind of like people start getting weird. down there. Like there's some stuff kind. of popping off in a tunnel. And so I. pull this thing out, dude. And I show it. up in the air, right? And now there's. other police officers come up and. they're looking at each other and. they're looking at me, right? And uh how. old were you? Oh, this was probably 8. months ago. And then uh Yeah. And then. the lady pushed me up against the wall. for having uh fake identification, being. a fake police officer. But they didn't. know they recognize you. She did. They.

She didn't want any [ __ ] I guess. she recognized I I was not an officient. of the law. You were just the Ovon with. a badge. Yeah. And she's like, "This. kind of [ __ ] is too much." So anyway, just be careful where you use um where. you use uh badgerie, you know. Um so, so. what did you do for Tony Hier? Tony. Shay. Tony Shay. So for Tony, he's he. was revitalizing downtown and he wanted. to create like an ambassador. you know. those ambassadors that kind of give out. directions or eyes for the police and he.

wanted someone that knew the area. So I. like hired like 60 people and they just. walked around the area cuz it was pretty. high crime rate back then. In fact, what's interesting is I had worked a. double. homicide on Fremont like maybe. about 6 months before he approached me. It was pretty bad down there at one. point for a long time. When I first. hired on in '92, it was like if you. wanted a cop to learn how to be a really. good street cop, you would want to work. downtown on Fremont. So, basically, to. answer your question, it was to um have.

these ambassador people who wore like, you know, shirts, you know, and very. welcoming to people who were looking for. directions because there was an. infrastructure of people that were. working and living down there. And he. was trying to build that cuz he had. residential businesses and all kinds of. stuff. and and in in not having the. police, he wanted to have a civilian. group of people that could interact with. people and make them feel safe. Yeah. I. guess as like a business person and a. connector like him, you think of those. types of things and you start to see the. value in them. How did Tony Shay die? So.

I, you know, I'm not very comfortable. speaking about like specifically how he. died. I know there was an incident where. there was a fire and he was inside the. fire and I believed it was related to. something about being inside the. building with the fire. Once I because I. wasn't with the company when that. happened. That was sometime after the. company and and you know it got to a. point where after I retired and I had. throughout the years of dealing with so. much death and all the craziness on the. police department. I just tuned. everything out. I really didn't engage. with people if it wasn't a positive. experience. And then it became a point.

where I was just like a solitary person. So I I wasn't really very intimately. involved in the details to how he died. But that's kind of like the gist of it. Got it. So we see how you finished The. Force. Then how did it start? Like how. did it first start that you decided to. become um join the force in Las Vegas? I. was a Marine. So when I was 17, I I. joined the Marine Corps and this was way. I so this was 1987 that I went into the. Marine Corps. Okay. Um Paris Island, Third Battalion, Eye Company, super.

hardcore. And my dad was in law. enforcement too. And I cannot overstate. the importance of having a strong male. role model in your life. My father, I. genulect to that man. He died in 2017. And um what I can say is that my dad I. wanted to do everything like my dad. So. my dad was in the military, my dad was. in the army, but I wanted to be a marine. and my dad was in law enforcement. So. while I was in the Marine Corps. uh you know there was I was on embassy. duty. I ended up on embassy duty which. is like one of the best most challenging.

duties in the Marine Corps if you go to. the right countries. And uh I was in. Belgrade I actually was when I was in. Kacus. When I was in Caracus there was a. and that's Venezuela. Caracus Venezuela. There was a um economics officer who. took a a liking to me and he knew I. wanted to go into law enforcement. He. said to me, he said, "In the '9s, the. economy in Vegas is going to explode." I. got on a plane and within like a couple. weeks, flew and took the test and then I. ended up in the academy in '92. Wow.

Yeah, dude. I bet the streets were hot. in '92. Were they? That's crazy. It was. the wild west. Vegas was the wild wild. west. if you you know everyone says that. their department is the best. I'm going. to say that Las Vegas policing. especially in the '90s I call it the. golden era era of policing which is. phenomenal. I mean you really got to. understand the psyche of the human being. because so many people come to Vegas to. do whatever crazy thing they want to do. and and you got to interact with people. on that level and it teaches you a lot.

about people. Is it is that a more fun. place to be in law enforcement do you. feel like? Like I know that's a strange. word probably to use with policing, but. is that a more entertaining place? It. is. Um, it is because you you deal with. everything they deal with in LA, everything they deal with in New York. And then Vegas is just, you know, they. say New York is a city that never. sleeps. It kind of I'm a New Yorker. It. kind of does. Vegas never sleeps. Vegas. can't sleep because it's coked up. usually. Yes, for sure. Or meth coke or. meth. Did meth was meth a little bit.

popping? It is because you know the area. commands that you the area command that. you work would kind of define what drug. you would deal with primarily. Got it. And so there was a time where I was. working in the northeast and they used. to call them it was called Frank area. Now they used to used to be David area. They call them Frankites or Davidites. cuz they'd be up just tweaking out doing. stuff on trailers and everything. And um. you know I there was a transition for me. in my life because I was a straightedge. guy and I looked down on drugs and I. didn't have a lot of. um I guess empathy for people who were.

using drugs and now I'm I've completely. learned the opposite, you know. Oh yeah, I bet you because you're firsthand right. in front of those people all the time. I. got to see like I would go to a single. wide trailer at 3:00 a.m. Lady's. completely tweaked out of her mind and. her kids are awake all nasty, you know, crying. The neighbors have called, spaghetti sauce on the walls, and I'd be. pissed at the mother. And what happened. throughout my career is I ended up. seeing that little girl that I was. trying to protect becoming the parent of.

a kid in the same type of situation. It's just cyclical, you know. And then. for the police to be judgmental, I found. that to be incredibly. um disheartening for me. And in in fact, if there's anything I think back in my. life, it is if ever I treated another. human being improperly or if I didn't. spend time with my children when I could. have spent time with my children. You. know, it it it makes me get emotional. sometimes when I can think of specific. situations. They'll tell you a story, man. There was one time where I took a.

little girl from her mom and this is in. Vegas. This is in Vegas. Oh, yeah. All. my police stuff is in Vegas. There was a. little one time that she was the mom was. completely took out. She was slamming. speed and she was just up and just doing. all kinds of stuff and the neighbors was. at some point called Yeah. Slam and. speed is injecting it. Yeah. He's. injecting it. Okay. And and. so I I go there and I remember I had to. take the little girl from her. mom and this girl was crying in such a. way. I I recorded this that it was. almost as if someone was literally.

though I wasn't pulling her heart out of. her body. Now, mind you, that's a kid. who loves their mom no matter what. Yeah, you you love your parent in spite. of Right. And and I'll always remember. in my mind that I have to learn to look. at other people the not only the way. that I'd want to be treated, but the. through the experiences that I've had. That's how I look at people. Now, you. know, once you get older, you you you. can start to get emotional about just.

the simplest of things. Oh, yeah. Hell. yeah. Jesus. Most of this podcast is. like that. Yeah. I Yeah. It's funny. The. little things that'll trigger, things. that you didn't have or things you. admire so much or even a word sometimes. that um or phrase somebody will use and. it'll just like well you up with. emotion. Um, well, I do think it's. interesting for for people in police, fire departments, those types of jobs. where yes, you I'm sure you develop a. lot of empathy, but then also you are. put under an unrealistic amount of.

stress. A lot of officers are, I would. assume, it seems like to me from the. discussions I've had that a lot of. people get put under um stress that. they're not really even as a human. equipped to deal with. So then at that. point, it's probably tough for you to. engage your best feelings and your best. empathy at moments when you're under. stress. And then you also have to look. out for your own survival. I'm not um. debating you with it. I'm just saying. I'm sure it's quite a juxtaposition, you. know, um when you first start out in. Vegas, what are some things that you. saw?

So anything that stands out, you know? So So from a crime perspective or from. just the culture of policing. perspective? Um let's start with the. crime perspective. So from the crime. perspective, drugs. are one of the most I mean drugs and. alcohol, okay? Because drugs and alcohol. kind of run hand inand when it comes to. the challenges that I would run. into. The drug scene in Vegas was either. it was crack or it was speed and and. like I said before depending on the area. command management and I would go on. Fremont because I worked Fremont.

primarily the first part of my career. and I'd see these young girls hooked on. crack prostituting on Fremont Street. Then you would see guys who came into. town to party in Vegas. They, you know, gamble at the casinos downtown and then. they want to come and pick up these. girls. They get trick rolled. I mean, it. just this like incredible web of vice. that occurred and it was like Gotham. City. And what's trick? Is that that. thing where you somebody send you that. video or whatever? No. So, trick roll is. when um you a a girl, a prostitute ends.

up getting you in a hotel room, either. drugs you or steals your money and rolls. you. So, the guy's the trick and they. roll him for his money. And they finesse. kind of. Yeah. Sometimes a finesse, sometimes it's with with with some with. drugs. I mean, there are a lot of. different ways that that could. potentially happen. The act of a person. commercially exchanging sex, robbing or. stealing from their sex buying client. known as a trick. Got it. I got it. Okay. Yeah. I thought it was some at a. sushi joint, too. I'm like, damn. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Just make sure you. cook it first. Um like would you bust.

into some like wild parties? Like would. you bust in and people have been up for. days? Would you bust in and people were. so bummed that you were ruining the. party? That ever happened? No. You know, the thing was was not so necessarily. bummed. it was that that people felt. like it was in Vegas like come on cop we. should be able to do this I mean like. we're why are you you know bothering us. right now like not they wouldn't even be. mad it was almost like a joke or people. who would want to try to pay you off or. or stuff like that but the funny thing. is that when I was talking about the. girls doing the trick rolls and stuff. like and everything these people were a.

lot of times close to my age so I would. see these you know do do you know. there's a um there the guy's name is uh. he was a famous uh poker player Um, I. can't remember his name. I pulled him. over one time. Um, and he was completely. cracked out of He's not He's dead now, so it's not me. He was driving. He was. No, he was in the passenger seat. Stu. Stuer Stunger. I pulled Stu over. He was. in the passenger side of a car. The The. driver was this dude who I knew was a.

dealer, completely cracked out of his. mind. and Stu tried to play me as I was. standing at the at the passenger side of. the car to try to get me to let him go, knowing that the car was full of all. kinds of stuff. Now, in Vegas, I can. tell you that without telling you that. on both hands, I've run. into easily five to. 10 B-list people involved in very, very.

compromising situations. And I know that. happens in LA, but the Vegas stuff is. really superseded. It's almost always. some kind of sex prostitute drug type. thing. And I and you know, I was like. 21, 22 years old and I was interacting. with people who I had no idea that I. would be interacting with them on that. type of level. Like were there times you. get called to hotel rooms? Like I'm just. trying to think of like take me on like. a specific call if you can. Um so and. you don't I'm not saying name.

celebrities. I don't need that. But I'm. just saying like, yeah, take me on like. a call where things are like, you know, I'm just kind of curious as to the level. of um like just the things you would see. cuz it's Vegas. Like, you know, it's the. craziest place on earth. So, here's a. story and and it's a sad story. Sorry. Do I sound demanding about that? No, not. at all. I'm sorry. I mean, I that's kind. of why I came, right? My hearing is kind. of sensitive to Yeah. I don't know why. I think I'm just tired, but So, so. working downtown, I I got a call once. So, you you guys walk the beat down. there. What do you guys That's one of. the things you don't really walk as much.

as in in Vegas. You know, everyone. really drives a car. And I could talk. about that a little bit later because I. think foot patrol is kind of important. But I remember one time going to uh. there was this movie theater called the. Flick movie theater. It was right on. Fremont Street. And I remember going in. and uh and going to a hotel getting they. would compass our dinner. So we get a. comp and go eat dinner at one of the. hotels. I remember meeting the security. guard. He gave me a comp. I went ate. dinner and then I got out. You're. talking about foot patrol. I got out to. walk my food off about an hour or so. later and I go in the Flick Motel and it.

was one of those kind of triple X kind. of movie theater and the same security. guard that gave me the comp was getting. a [ __ ] from a a young guy in in one. of the back seats in his uniform. Wow. Comping dinner, huh? Um, so he's sitting. in the back getting a [ __ ] and what. do you do? Do you go in there? Are you. wearing like a shades and like are you. hiding in the distance? What are you. doing? No, no. So, what I hated having. to do that cuz I was a rookie at the. time and and like you walk in there and.

your boots are like sticky because you. know all kind of disgust which is kind. of gross. People don't clean the place. up. There it is right there. Oh, the. flicker. You can still see the Yep. That. flick. Yeah. And were there live sex. shows in there? No, they weren't. There. was a movie theater, but they would want. the rookies to walk through it so that. stuff like that wouldn't happen. Right. But what was weird was that this guy. felt he was comfortable enough to go in. his uniform and get a [ __ ] you know, in a in a movie theater, like not even. take his his uniform off and go inside. And that was like that wild west. mentality. Vegas on that same street.

Maybe a couple of weeks later, and this. would happen frequently, I got a call of. a person now answering their door at. their hotel room. Go up to the hotel. room. Security with the pass key. Wow. Opens the door. They open the door. This. dude was butt naked on the bed, completely bloated. He was, we say 419, which is the code for a dead body. Completely dead. He I think Rigger had. he might have started turning purple if. I recall, but he was definitely dead. And he had a picture of his family on.

the um. nightstand. So, fast forward to the end. of what happened was this guy came to. Vegas on a like a conference or. something like that. He has a beautiful. family. Picks up a hooker, tries to have. sex with her, heart pops, and he dies. She leaves him and and she leaves with. all of his stuff. And then that's the. legacy that he leaves for his family. And it was almost like it was movie like. because on the nightstand I the guy. carried a picture of his family and put. it on the nightstand and then I can see.

his dead fat body, his little sticking. out and he's on and he's and his kids. with his wife picture is right there. Wow. And you think about that kind of. stuff like see when we talk about this. police thing I think that death is the. recurring theme and and it gets scary. like you because you see so much like I. would look at a dead body and I'd be. like did that guy realize that that was. the last time he was going to put on. those underwear? Is that the last time. that he realized that he was going to do. that? Brush his teeth, put lotion on his. limbs or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, dude.

That's Yeah. Sometimes I think like like. um I have like a moment each day kind of. where it's like I sometimes it is kind. of putting on your socks you're like. what if this is the last day you know I. think cuz that's one of the moments. you're kind of suiting up for the day. I'll have moments like that. Um yeah. what does that kind of I guess if you. see a lot of death how does that change. your perspective or do you think it does. for officers or even just you. personally? One time I was on a call. where a guy hung himself and I was. second to arrive and there was another.

cop in there and the guy was there. He. had cut him down but left the liature. around his neck because they didn't want. to make sure that it was actually a guy. was just dead and the cop was there. playing with the guy's um because a lot. of people in Vegas have those video. poker little handheld video poker. things. I mean cuz this was they don't. do it on their phone. They had and the. cop was just sitting there. He was like. just talking to me like yeah and the guy. was dead there. this I'm talking about. stuff from the beginning of my career. more so um because I think that that. really kind of formulated how my mind. looked at death and you know it's.

evolved some but that's those things. stand out my mind and I was like d how's. this cop sitting here playing this video. game and I was like that's why he's. playing the video game right that that's. why he's playing the video game cuz he's. got to sit up here with this guy he. needs an escape yeah you want to sit. here and look and just keep taking the. guy's pulse or yeah it would be hard it. would be crazy if he's sitting there. Yeah. Do you mean anything else besides. trying to occupy his brain? You know, that same time period in my career, it. also taught me a lot about what we do.

with our loved ones at the last moment. There was a recall. On domestics, you. get a lot of recalls. There was this. lady. Okay. And on domestics, you mean. by domestic violence? Yes. Domestic. violence and there was a recall. You. said it's a recall. A lot of times you. end up having to go back to the same. address multiple times. Okay. So, that's. a recall. So, we got recall back out to. so and so. And uh I remember it was. really really pretty um kind of I'm. guessing at because I was maybe in my. early 20s. I'm going to guess this lady. was about 30 something. Really really. pretty light-skinned black lady. And she. had some kids and and she got she had.

recently been divorced. And so she got. the two kids. She got it was a son and a. daughter. The daughter was about 14 and. the son was about maybe nine. And I'm. just guessing these ages. And I remember. these kids would like be so mean to. their mom because the divorce caused. them to pick sides cuz the mom ended up. with the custody of the kids. And the. dad was a pretty violent guy and she. would always call if he was coming. through. And I remember going and the. kids were just so mean to their. mom after maybe the third recall there.

was a call to the residence. It was I. was just about to get off on graveyard. of gunfire and I showed up and the mom. was laying on the sidewalk shot in the. face by the dad and the kids were. screaming, "My mom, what am I going to. do without my mom?" I mean, just. screaming. You can feel that go through. your whole body. And you but you have to. remain professional. Wow. And in my. mind, I'm saying, "But you never said.

that to her when she was alive. you why why didn't you know why didn't. you I didn't say that to them because. these kids are going through trauma why. didn't you say that to them to her when. she was alive so you know when I when I. talk to people about policing you know. it's nice to tell stories but is there a. lesson that I can learn from this if. someone watches that's why I really like. you man because people relate to you. dude and like there's some kid or. someone watching this that's like maybe. going through something and if they can. take that away that you know what I'm.

going to say I love you or I'm going. hold back yelling and being rude to you. just cuz I'm having a bad day, then. this, you know, to me is a win. Yeah. I. think it's hard for children to learn. that. I think one of the things that I. think and I don't have any children. I've been a child but I don't have any. children but I think one of the things. is nobody teaches you kind of how you. know a lot of times to interact you know. how to express your feelings like and I. think a kid they you kind of feel like. they just are going to know those things. naturally you know how to talk to their.

I mean I think parents probably talk. about how to speak to your mother how to. speak to your father but I think. sometimes there is this missing element. sometimes of like how to feel what a. feeling is you know like kids may be. confused they may think something's. anxiety for a lot and it's really just a. feeling, you know. It's like I I think. some of that I think there's a missing. piece of education there and I'm not. even blaming it on parents or anything. I think it's just a part of our maybe. our culture um that could be more. expanded upon and maybe even a classes.

in school. I know it sounds crazy. No, it doesn't. And it sounds real. Yeah. But if somebody would have taught me in. school how to recognize if one of my. friends might be struggling, right? or. how to like, you know, approach an issue. if there's some, you know, some type of. thing goes on or if somebody's um, you. know, like how I'm feeling about [ __ ] I. think that could have been super. helpful. I agree 100%. And as we get. older, I think that we learn how to do. it better, but there's so many young. people suffering. And, you know, I hate. to use the word term bullying because it. sounds kind of corny, but like I don't I.

don't like bullying in any way, shape, or form. there's someone going through. something so difficult we have no idea. how you know that saying that says um be. kind for everyone you meet is fighting a. very hard battle you know I I don't go. to Vegas as much you know I go to Vegas. a couple of times out of the year for. just different things uh because. obviously I still have some roots there. but um even being a New Yorker I spent. so many years there last time I came to. went to Vegas or maybe it was the last. time my daughter picked me up right my. oldest daughter picked me up she's. amazing all my kids are amazing but my.

oldest daughter picked me up and she. says, "Uh, we coming back from the. airport and I we drive by this apartment. community and I without even thinking by. an apartment community." Yeah. By. apartment community and without even. thinking I was like, "Oh." Cuz when you. when you're a cop, you're like, "Okay, that happened there, that happened. there, that that's all you think about.". And I remember I said I said, "I'm going. to tell I I told her the story that. there was this pizza delivery. guy. His girlfriend went to pick him up. from work and she rode on him on his. last delivery.

And these guys come out from the. bushes and rob and shoot and kill him. I was the first to arrive. I get there. and this girl grabs my arm and she's. saying, "Wake him. up. Wake him up." And you don't there's. in the Bible there's a story where this. woman walks by and I'm not saying that. I'm Jesus by any shape, but where the. woman touched Jesus and and he said he. felt, you know, he instantly turned and. knew that he was touched. There's power.

that goes through people when they're. going through things. And like I that's. why I feel like being a cop for that. long. I don't know that the human psyche. is meant to be able to deal with going. through that. It's like you go to work, you're like, "Okay, give me a conflict. Okay, I'm done with that one. Give me. another conflict. All right, I'm ready. Give me another conflict." I go to. lunch, then I go home and got to deal. with my own conflict. You know what I'm. saying? And you have to go to lunch, dude. What kind of lunch goes with a. homicide or a burning, you know? Like, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'll have nuggets after.

a burning. Like, but then at the same. time, you still have to eat, right? But. it's like, yeah, you see [ __ ] Ronny's. having, you know, a eight pack of. nuggets and like, dude, calm down. You. [ __ ] had four drownings this morning. and you're out here just nuggeting up. Yeah. I can't even imagine. I would be. so It'd be crazy to see a pairing menu. for crimes and then different, you know? I think if there's a couple B& or. whatever, you know, Yeah. I'll have a. [ __ ] appetizer. You feel me? B& You. mean breaking and entering? Yeah. I'm. trying. Okay, I'm going to work back. with you, dude. I got you. I got you.

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Nauseium about like um the em the stress. that all a lot of officers feel. He told. this amazing story about um he got. called to a scene and the mother is in. the yard saying, "I think my son is. thinking of committing." They look in. the doorway. the guy um takes his own. life with a shotgun, shoots himself in. the um head. Now he has to go back. Now he's standing. there talking to the mother when it. happens. She's saying this. Now this. happened.

So he has this thing with the mother. He. still has to go inside and make sure. everything's okay. Like is that exactly. what happened? Who knows if somebody's. still in there with a weapon? You just. don't know. He can't get the door open. because the body's right there. He. finally is able to get get it open, maneuver, and part of the matter from. the guy's head falls down the back of. his shirt. Disgusting. Yeah. So now he. still has to deal with the other he has. to fill out reports. It's 4 hours before. he even gets to think about and the. whole time he has like, you know, but. yeah, I just you guys are like the drain.

of society. You guys have to be this. catchall in this. You have so many. responsibilities. Um it's tough. It. really is. You know, and there's a story. that that story you just told me. reminded me of. And again, it's a nexus. to about how we treat humans. What's a. nexus mean? Nexus is like a connection. to so when one thing connects to another. thing. Okay. So the this because the. story that you told me reminded me of. this story where um I negotiated this. guy. So I get a call. I was I was a.

sergeant actually at the time. So I I. ended up negotiating because I was part. of this um crisis intervention team. Okay. So, I go from Southeast Area. Command all the way to downtown. It's. Valentine's Day, February 14th. A lot of. people end up attempting or committing. um we'll say 405. We our term for that, unlivvening themselves is 405. Okay. They 405 on these on these holidays or. at um you know um cemeteries sometimes. But this guy's on Fremont Street, about.

14th in Fremont, walking up and down. Mhm. And he's got a gun in his hand. And. so they pull me into the scene. They put. me in a car and I'm like the guy I mean. the guy was like about maybe about 12 or. 13 ft that way when we first drove by. I'm like, "Dang on, bro. You going to. drive me this close together?" So close. He was so close. But they they end up. pulling behind this cuz they it was. really kind of a haphazard thing cuz the. patrol officers pulled up on him. No one. called. I think the guy just the patrol. officer pulls up. So the the perimeter.

was set up kind of weird. So they we. pull up and I you know I get to a safe. distance behind and so I start on the PA. talking to the guy. You're the. negotiator. So yeah. So I'm I'm talking. to him. I'm the responsible, right? And. so I'm I'm saying to him and then I look. at the guy, he looks kind of Latino. So. then I start saying in I said maybe I'll. say it in Spanish. So then in Spanish I. start giving, you know, saying to him, listen, you know, giving him the whole. thing, right? And he keeps starting to. raise the fire and I keep going like. this because all you know these got you.

know um officers with their rifles on. him and off and I'm like this guy's. gonna get and I can see him talking to. him and then one time he lifts they. light him up. So we all just run across. the street and these weird things happen. when when you're in a very critical. situation like that. I remember one of. the first things I noticed was that his. pinky was shot off when I first got up. to him. So, we get the scene, calm down, and then uh I see also in his boot he. had a a a daringer, a little small 22. Daringer. The gun that he had was um not.

real. It was a it was a replica firearm. if I recall. It was a pellet, something. like that. This is what's called side by. cop. I don't know if you're familiar. with that term. Now, I am now I totally. understand it. They trick you into. shooting them, right? Because they don't. want to do it themselves. What? Yeah. because well some people because of for. religious reasons they feel like if they. kill themselves that's the last act that. they committed and there or some people. just don't have I I guess I don't want. to say courage cuz I it's ballsy to unal. alive yourself. Yes it is. So 405 is is.

a serious thing. So those are some. replica. um firearms. It was a legit I shot a guy. with one of those by the way. Yeah. That's a six hour right? I have a. six hour. Oh yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't. I kind of prefer a Glock. Yeah. It's. just it's a personal preference, you. know. I have a few different guns. My. favorite gun is my AR pistol, though. You know, but I mean, I'm not a big gun. person, but I strongly believe in. protecting mine. Yeah. Peeps. Oh, for. sure. That's why I like living in a. state where you can um where you can.

have a weapon, too. Is nice. Um so, in. that instance, say you're you're just. you're talking to somebody. It's a hosta. negotiation situation, right? Yes. But, you know, let me just tell you one other. part of that story that I'm going to. tell you. Forgive me. Yeah. No one. Um. so what happened was we had to go to. coroner inquest for that and we all go. and we tell you go to what it's called a. coroner's inquest where everyone gives. testimony about is that the same day is. right no no no it's sometime after. because homicide has to collect them. their their information everything and. mind you know this is some weeks later. so this lady where after after all the.

officers and everyone testify this lady. walks in no one knows who she is and. she's in like this kind of like plain. jane kind of outfit and she walks walks. up to the front and it's almost like a. movie scene cuz it's all quiet cuz I. didn't know who she was. And she gets. gets up. They swear in or whatever and. she. says, "I just want you to know that. while you guys were on the police side, this person was my brother. I'm not here. to try to defend his behavior. I just. came so.

officially, you know, that someone loved. him." And then she got up and she left. Wow. And so to me it's like you never. know what someone's going through in. life when you go you know with the whole. road rage thing or whatever you know. like maybe that person may let me cut. them a little bit of slack you know let. me cut them a little bit slack and I. mean I'm raising my hand I am very very. guilty you oh for sure all of us are I. don't think it doesn't sound like we're. trying like you're trying to exclude. yourself it's just like yeah it's funny. you get so active and so animated it's.

hard to sometimes have that control you. know Yeah. And self-control is such a. huge thing. But God, that's a powerful. moment. I just wanted you to know that. that somebody loved this person. Yes. It. was deep, man. Yeah. Cuz otherwise you. just see this person. A lot of times you. don't even get a sto you don't even know. their story. You just pull up somebody's. deceased, somebody's killed someone, somebody's tried to take their own life. Um what's that moment when you're. negotiating, right? And you were so or.

do you have a weapon on the person or. you don't have a weapon on? You're kind. of No. So, so negotiation happens in a. lot of different ways. That's not that's. atypical way because it's typ from a. negotiation team. There's they set up a. command center, the whole nine yards. You're very far back. I mean, sometimes. you don't get on the phone for maybe an. hour. It could be two hours later. That. situation was a very critical situation. where they needed someone who had. training on the scene. So, what what's. kind of fun that I've been able to deal. with those kinds and also the kind where. you're in the tactical operations.

center. So, you know, another one of. those kind of um dynamic situations was. a guy who was inside had a gun, his. neighbor called and I was negotiating um. and it's called a face to face, but it's. really we weren't really face to face. because we don't do face to face. It's. like it's incredibly dangerous, but I. was actually in patrol at the time and I. was the first to arrive and I ended up. getting a rapport with this guy and I. talked to him and talked to him and we I. developed, you know, I want to say. liking the guy, you know, and. understanding what he was going through.

he's going through and they, you know, it's usually like three things, you. know, it's a a health issue, loneliness, you know, a family loss, and a financial. issue or a medical issue. It's any one. of various things. And he was going. through like maybe all of those things. And and I remember talking to him and. I'm like, and he says, you know what, we. got to a point where he said, you know, I'm going to come out, but I want to. come out and I want I want to talk to. you. Will you welcome me to the. ambulance? Cuz I told him he was going. to go to the ambulance and get. transported. And I did that and I stay. with them at the ambulance. The. ambulance people come out to me and they. say, "Hey, officer, you might want to.

come see. this." I go inside and inside of his. drawer, stacks of kitty porn. Mm- stacks. of it. Dang. Now, mind you, I would talk this. guy out of 405, right? You talking from. I would have went alive in himself and. then now you're like, "Look what I've. done." You know, it's really Is that the. thing? It's like I kept this person. alive. It's like you have this really. kind of dual like this kind of it's. really like right like if I had my. choice if I was able to walk up on.

somebody in the wild west I would. probably you know you you it's a very. difficult difficult situation to be in. and you know when you talk to a person. for extended periods of time it's called. Stockholm you've heard of Stockholm. syndrome Stockholm syndrome bring it up. let me read the definition of it because. I always hear it and I even say it and I. thought of originally it was people from. Norway that got lost or whatever I think. but let me think it was a banker. Stockholm syndrome is what' you say? It's a bank robbery thing. Oh, it's a. bank robbery thing. Stockholm syndrome. is a psychological response where a. hostage or victim develops positive.

feelings or emotional attachment to. their capttor or abuser, often as a. coping mechanism during prolonged. captivity or abusive situations. So, it's kind of like marriage or whatever, but it's like very. severe. And that's just a joke, but. yeah. So, psychological. So, that's. interesting. Speaking of like that kind. of thing, you hear a lot about child. trafficking. You hear a lot about. trafficking. That is a buzzword right. now for sure. Did you see a ton of that. kind of stuff or is some of that cuz I'm. not saying it doesn't happen. I know.

that there's a lot of things like that. But is there a lot is some of that just. heightened because we hear about it. every single day now. Did you see a lot. of that sort of thing or what do you. see? So okay what define child from your. definition of child? That's a great. question. So I guess you would think. of right did you see a lot of pedophilia. or did you see did you see like more. like um people just trafficking like. prostitution type of that being run by. pimps like what did you see kind of like. what kind of those things were separate.

kind of separate right the pedophilia. you' see like familial stuff like that. or you would see like that guy that had. the pictures inside the room it wasn't a. person running you know females one time. I was um I was actually with the cops TV. show And for this they in this episode. they couldn't air because of we drove we. drove into the desert because a a. vagrant had found a campsite and there. was a person who was living there and. this guy and I'm going to assume it was. a guy cuz we never caught him. But all. of these pornographic.

magazines and this is scary man. He cut. little kids' faces out of other regular. magazines and pasted the little kids. faces on all these explicit. um magazines. So, this is the type of. person you think would be like a serial. like kidnapper rape like whatever. Yeah. And uh the cops didn't end up airing it. and I'm sure why because it was. incredibly graphic and and and. creatively weird and disgusting at the. same time. And um we never ever caught.

the guy. Oh, never caught him. What was. the campsite like? It was just a. disgusting campsite in the desert area. Um because Vegas has a lot of desert. areas. So if you especially if you go. like to the north northwest area and. Vegas vagrants kind of hang out there. kind of a little near Nellis Air Force. Base like jugs of pee pe stuff like that. like just like stuff like food stuff. sitting around. It's like somebody just. so exactly like that you know old you. know cans beer you know beer bottles. soda bottles there was like a sleeping.

bag and stuff like that. That's so. bizarre. Yeah. So that's kind of like as. far as like a perverted type of thing. you see. And it's kind of crazy like. it's crazy what happens mentally to. people that they that that becomes. something for them, you know, like what. sickness happens inside of them, you. know, and a lot of that you hear too is. um uh cyclical I think, right? Yeah, it. is. And you know, that's one of the. things that I So yeah. So that the one. that was molested ends up molesting. Yeah. Is that true? Let's look up what.

percentage of people that get molested. end up becoming molesters. And I don't. know if that's the right terminology, but you always hear that. So, let me see. if I can get a little bit of information. with that right now. Trevan, if you have. something. I just wonder if that's fact. or fiction. I think it would probably be. significant. There's widespread belief. in a cycle of child sexual abuse, but. little empirical evidence for this. belief. The aims were to identify. perpetrators of such abuse who had been. victims of pedophilia and/or incest in. order to ascertain whether subjects who.

had been victims become perpetrators. The results among 747 males, the risk of. becoming a perpetrator was positively. correlated with reported sexual abuse. victim experiences. The overall rate of. having been a victim was 35% for. perpetrators and 11% for. non-perpetrators. Of the 96 females, 43%. had been victims, but only one was a. perpetrator. A high percentage of male. subjects abused in childhood by a female. relative became perpetrators. That's. interesting. Having been a victim was a.

strong predictor of becoming a. perpetrator, as was an index of parental. loss and childhood. Wow. The data. supports the notion of a victim to. victim cycle in a minority of male. perpetrators, but not among the female. victims studied. That's interesting that some of them. also be having become a victim of strong. um an index of parental loss that that. sometimes you you do that if you lost a. parent. Yeah, that's interesting. I. don't even know why that would happen. Huh. Just kind of interesting because.

you always hear that, you know, that it. happens a lot in male and then you see. that it happens a lot of males but not. as much in females. Um what in Vegas? Yeah. You run across uh you know, everybody's there to have the craziest. time. Yes. Right. Everybody's there to. have, you know, bonkers times. And I'm. sure and there's tons of like uh. prostitution, sex work, um girls who. were just partying for money. I mean, there's everything there. The. prostitution in Vegas is just off the. meter. A lot of people think that it's.

legal in Vegas. It's not legal in Vegas. It's legal a little bit north in NY. County. You can go to the there's a. chicken ranch and there's other places. that people can go. Um but in Vegas, it's illegal. It's a misdemeanor, but. it's it's still illegal. But inside the. clubs, inside the um casinos, I mean. there's tons of girls who are working. and most of them um not most of them. A. lot of them work for pimps. Oh, they do. A lot of them do. What's that kind of. connection? Would you see that sometimes. like does the pimp come and drop them. off? Does the pimp put them does he like. Uber pull them or whatever? Like how do.

they get the hook the women down to the. strip or whatever? Is the pimp down. there? So there's a thing. Well, pimps a. lot of times from a pimp perspective, they they have a stable of women and. they'll go from place to place to place. Like they'll go to Miami and bring their. girls to Miami to work. They'll bring. their girls to um you know, New York or. Vegas or whatever. And there's a and. these girls are called I don't like. terminology, but they're called carpet. holes or holes that actually work inside. of casinos. And they'll they'll walk. inside the hole inside the.

casino on the carpet and they'll go make. their money, come back and give it to. the pimp. Then you have the lower level. prostitutes which are the ones that work. the tracks. And a track is a place where. it's known for prostitution and Vegas. and every other major city has tracks. and lower level pimps will drop their. girls off on the tracks and then they'll. walk the track and make their money. Then you have the ones that are the call. girls who work out of the books and. they're the most highle females that a. person can interact with. The track the.

people who drops them off of the tracks. What kind of ve what kind of vehicles do. pimples drive? Do they still drive like. these crazy classy cars? Do they drive a. van? Like so, you know, I'm still I'm. retired, so now it may have changed, but. I I can tell you that in the time when I. was uh working, those their cars stood. out. It wasn't like the 1970s pimp. mobile type vehicles. Um, but you would. see the nicer, you know, Escalades or. whatever types of vehicles. But you. could, we would know because I mean, if. you're on a Boulder Highway, which is a. really really kind of seedy area,

especially where the track is by five. points. Boulder Highway. called. It's. called Boulder Highway 5 Points. Yeah. Uh cuz it five points of the city. intersect at that location and that's a. track. It's still a track. Okay, let's. see that. Boulder Highway 5 points. Yeah, cuz when sometimes if I go I'll. drive just to see what places are still. popping. Yeah, sure, brother. And. a lot of the pimps are they uh what. types of guys are they? Black men, are. they? Asian men? Black men. It is. Black. males are mostly pimps. So that's more. of it's a black guy in character. Yes. It's a black culture thing, huh? It is.

You didn't know that? I've seen I've thought that because uh. the pimps that I've met the pimps that. I've met I've only maybe met three pimps. but two and a half of them or one of. them was mixed but two of them were full. or potentially full black. But even in. in rap culture you can hear people talk. about pimp culture. So you so it's yeah. it's like a very it's very clear that. that's a subculture of I just didn't. know if it was also Chinese or Russian. type of thing you know. Do you see a lot. of that Vietnamese stuff? No, not in my.

career, I didn't see that. But in New. York, I know that, you know, the. Russians have a lock on a lot of. different vices in New York. Uh that. didn't really translate into Vegas as. much. Yeah. At a certain point, do you. let the um women trick? Do you let them. do whatever they got to do out there? Like I mean, what do you kind you just. want to make sure they're safe? At a. certain point, if you know the crime is. going to go on, right? if it's a kind of. a fluid crime that happens regularly and. is there more of a idea like okay we. just want this to happen safely or is it.

more of an idea of like we want to stop. this so it's a very good question so. there's only so much you could do right. so the primarity pime p um primary. responsibility for a patrol officer is. to respond to calls for service so I'm. going to speak to when I was a patrol. officer and I'm talking about. prostitution right for prostitution so I. mean you see two or three prostitutes. walking up and down the street I mean. you can only stop one. But most of the. time they would if they saw a patrol. car, they would just keep walking and. and if I hung out in the area long. enough, they would realize that no trick.

is going to stop and and and pick them. up. So you could affect it like that, but then you get a call for service and. then you got to leave and then they're. going to be back doing exactly what they. want to do. Is it was it a crime that I. was really super concerned about? No, it. wasn't. But it looks bad when I'm part. of the responsible party of keeping that. area safe. And you know, if you have a. prostitution situation going on, either. something else is going to occur, you. know, connected to that. Either she's. going to get beat up or she's going to.

steal his money. A lot of times they. would do that to guys if they felt like. they could take their money cuz they. weren't the guy wouldn't report it to. the police. That would happen for. low-level for people who wanted to buy. drugs, too. You would get these kids. from the Midwest to come there or. they're in Vegas. Okay, we go down on. Fremont. let's go buy some um whatever. they want to buy and I'm gonna you fill. in the blank of whatever drug it could. be. And they would just get they would. just rob them. They would give them. whatever and they say go call the police. if you and and then what are they going. to do? They're not going to call the. police. And then you got all of this. crap going on and it looks bad. It's.

like why why are tax dollars paying for. the police if we're not going to keep. the area clear. So I think to answer. your question, yeah, what I would do. mostly is I would leave the prostitutes. alone with the exception of, you know, interacting with them to say, "Hey, it's. time to clear out." Do officers respond. to in casino activities or do in casino. security respond to those so that it's. not a public thing. Right. So the casino. security are pretty high level. They're. pretty well trained. They handle what. they can but they can't arrest anyone. Ah so if it's a felony we have to come.

and take care of it. For most. misdemeanor a lot of times they would. give a person a warning. I got called to. casinos a lot of times for a lot of. different things. I mean cuz you know. people get drunk. Hi. Um, you know, I. told you if we have dead bodies, obviously the police have to respond to. dead bodies. Um, that's crazy. Oh, yeah. But and a lot of times people die in in. in in these uh casinos. What do they. die? Overdoses probably. A lot of times. it's overdoses. Yeah. Really? And is it. a lot of times just people doing cocaine. by themselves? Is it what is it you. think? Um, so let me speak to the things.

I can specifically remember. So. sometimes it's been just over partying, overexertion of their heart, and it. could be a combination of using drugs, trying to have some sex that they. weren't trying weren't capable of doing. But a lot of times it's an overexertion. and trying to put too much in a weekend. and thinking that Vegas is going to be. the panacea to whatever they had going. on in their life back in Minnesota and. it wasn't. Yeah. Was there ever like a. murder in a casino? A murder in a casino? No. I don't I I've. never ever responded to a murder in a.

casino. I've responded to a lot of. different murders, but in the procity, a. lot of times those murders were either. uh a robbery. Uh the really sad ones. were obviously the domestic violence. ones. Um but the casinos, they did a. pretty decent job of the ones, the. casinos that I dealt with of kind of. monitoring their clientele. They've done. Vegas because you don't you get issues. like that then people are not going to. come back to casino. Vegas is run by. money and most of the directors of these. casinos are people who were prior who.

were cops before. Oh, that's true. Yeah. It's just like um. yeah, people that lobby and people that. work in Congress. It's like you're only. so far from the other side. It's like. once you know so much about being an. officer, at a certain point the. criminals might hire you because you. know so much about being an officer, it's like there so many things are kind. of sympatico like that. Um what about. did did prostitutes offer cop stuff a. lot? Does that happen or no? Yeah, there. were some cops that have gotten in. trouble for getting some of the, you. know, prostitution stuff on the side.

Um, and that's another thing is that. they you ever heard the term badge. bunnies. So, it's not just prostitutes. It's just. a lot of times women in general would. offer police, you know, sex or sexual activities. activities. Oh, yeah. A lot a lot of the. chicks over by We had a foot locker. A. lot of chicks over there was always. trying to slurp on the cops or whatever. Yeah. my my uh one of my attack. officers, the guys who teach you when. you're in academy, he said um this badge. will get you a whole bunch of coochie, but one coochie will take that badge.

away. Damn. And it's true. And what a. lot of off a lot of officers still like. whatever. This is part of my I had a. cough one time. This dude was super. squared away. I mean, tall, goodlook. I. mean, straight out of central casting. and and I'm definitely not going to say. his name. I had a ton of respect for. this guy for sure. Um, in fact, I think. he was good enough to almost play. professional baseball if I. recall. He I was his I was his uh boss. at the time. And uh he uh he goes on a.

call and this girl he was supposed to. take a I think a burglary report if I. recall. And uh he ends up hooking up. with the girl. and realizes that he screwed up. And so, and the girls, I guess, having feelings. for him. And so, like, how he ends up. going and putting like a hoodie on and. going and trying to buy the morning. after pill at a convenience store, whatever, or CVS, wherever you can buy. the morning after pill. And he had. called me and said, "Hey, I'm not.

feeling well. Can I get off early?" And. I just, this guy was so sharp. I was. like, "Yeah, go ahead. Go home." And it. So, he and he tells the girl he wants. her to take the morning after pill. And. then she ends up calling the police. calling police. and then it turned and. he lost his job over it. And then. there's there's a video of him. This is. like a a married guy with a with a. hoodie on going in buying a morning. after pill. Um and it's just it was that. that that temptation story involving me. I went on a call was loud music call and.

it was all these girls that came in. drunk from a from a party all really. high girls and it was like three of us. on the call and we told them to turn the. music down and this beautiful girl looks. at me and she says and they're like oh. she got her naval pierce she got her. naval pierced and um I was like oh cool. and she goes like this she goes look and. pulled the dress up no panties on and. showed me her naval piercing. that kind of stuff happens and what do. you do can't even I'm just kidding of. Can you look or not? Of course. I mean,

she was standing right there. I wasn't, you know, I just said, "No, you know, we're going to leave." You know, you got. to be professional and and you got to. go. But you're going to get that kind of. stuff all the time. I mean, I there was. a time I mean, you write people tickets, they track you down and want to, you. know, meet up or connect or whatever. There are people who just have a thing. for police. Is it hard to say no to that. type of thing now at some points? No, because you get off shift. I mean, you. get off shift and you can, you know, meet the person after. You don't have to. try to do it on duty. Oh, so you could. still do it at off duty. It depends on.

what kind of situation it is. There were. guys, now there are cops who have banged. the the wife. They will This story's. happened more than once where a guy a. cop arrests a guy the husband for. domestic violence and hooks up with the. wife. No, that's happened more than. once. What's that called? Is there a. felony? I mean I mean a bad business. I. mean it's it's just it's it's really bad. business. I mean Damn. Yeah. I was. wondering if there's a term for that, you know. Yeah, it's it's bad. It's it's. a very very bad thing. Um, what are some. of the I heard you talking about earlier. with the guy or maybe it was drug use.

where it was Valentine's Day, I guess. Valentine's Day guy. Is that a scary. time like what's like one of the most. dangerous holidays? New Year's Eve. Really? And I didn't like working cuz so. many people shoot guns in the air and. all kinds of stuff like that. And I. remember I went on a call one time. A. lot of it's Mexican people, I think. I'm. not saying any whites. Well, what the. story that I went to is a a lady um what. goes up must come down. Yeah. Someone. shot a gun up and bullet came down and. was right in her in her boob. Yeah. So.

that's a cautionary tale to people who. go out and shoot on Valentine's Day. Of. course, we didn't catch the guy, but. Yeah. So I didn't I didn't And New. Year's Eve is just people getting wild. and drunk and fighting. The one time a. person spit in my face was on New Year's. Eve. A woman. What do you do then? It. was tough deal. I was going to I was. about to retire, man. And um this girl. was just incredibly drunk. You know, she. couldn't go into the casino. We end up. getting her into custody. My officers. got her in custody. And I'm trying to. calm her down face to face. And she just.

spit right in my face. Man, I'm telling. you, it took everything. You know, I saw. my whole career, Madison, you know, and. she ended up getting booked on that cuz. you know, you that's a crime obviously. And we went to court and she was dressed. up completely nice and they offered her. a deal if I would agree to her getting. the deal. And I and I gave her the deal, man. Wow. Gave her the deal. People get. drunk and do stupid things, man. It. sucked getting, you know, it's the not. only does the smell and all that other. stuff suck, but what sucks is being.

humiliated on Fremont Street on New. Year's Eve in front of thousands of. people and seeing people laughing at you. for being spit upon suck, man. It really. did. But I but you got to you know for. me you got to learn to forgive man. Yeah. Well you're out there though in. moments like yes you do. It's really. it's interesting because I feel like. we're at this justosition sometimes in. society where it's like you know yes you. want to treat people with respect. Yes. you want um people to you know you want.

to believe that all people are good. But. then it also you it starts to be like it. feels like the bad stuff is winning. sometimes. But I don't think that all. people are good. I think that we are. human that are capable of doing things. that we don't even know that we're. capable of doing. I have this thought. that we if placed in the right or wrong. circumstance, a person that you would. think would not do a certain thing would. do that certain thing. That's the thing. about being human. That's the beauty of. of free will to some degree in my.

opinion. Right. There's that famous case. where someone was giving someone an. order like through a wall or something. Can you find it really quick? Oh, and. they were asking to shock and they and. they Yeah, I think I know which case. you're talking about. And the person. Yeah, they Yeah, the Mgrim experience. there is um in 1961, a series of social. psychology experiments were conducted by. Yale University uh psychologist Stanley. Mgrim who intended to measure the. willingness of study participants to. obey an authority figure who instructed.

them to perform acts conflicting with. their personal conscience. Participants. were led to believe that they were. assisting a fictitious experiment in. which they had to administer electric. shocks to a learner, which was another. person. These fake electric shocks. gradually increased to levels that would. have been fatal had they been real. What. about the McDonald's one? Did you are. you familiar with the McDonald's case, the police case where the guy craziest. thing I've ever heard. And and just cuz. he thought it was a cop, they were. willing to go to that degree. This is. the craziest thing that ever happened. The strip search phone call scam was a.

series of incidents mostly occurring in. rural areas of the US that extended over. a period of at least 10 years starting. in 1994. The incidents involved a man. calling a restaurant or grocery store. and oftent times it was a McDonald's. claiming to be a police officer and then. convincing managers to conduct strip. searches of employees and to perform. other bizarre and humiliating acts on. behalf of the police. It's hard to. laugh, but the [ __ ] is unreal. Yes. With every hoax, a male caller who.

identified himself as a police officer. uh would contact a manager or supervisor. and would solicit their help in. detaining an employee or customer who. was suspected of a crime such as a theft. or drug possession. He would then. provide a generic description of the. suspect like, "Oh, it's a female. employee, etc." Which the manager would. recognize and then he would ask the. manager to search the suspected person. So, basically, just had a guy calling up. Mhm. McDonald's. Oh. Eventually, the caller. would have groomed the manager to the. point where they would do almost. anything asked by the caller. Yes. Such.

as spanking, kissing, inappropriate. touching, oral sex, and even and even. sexual assault. And Yep. Many of the. incidents would last. hours. I'm sorry, man. This is not. funny. I don't know what I think there's. something about it that many of This is. [ __ ] crazy. I think, right, it's. psych. It's crazy. Okay, good. Many of. the incidents would last hours before. either of the participants of the strip. search realized the call is a hoax or by. the intervention of a bystander. Do you.

know what even came is even crazier? This became a form of porn that became. super popular. Really? Yes. Where they. were having it would look they would. just filming exactly like that. God. Yeah. I I did a deep dive on this whole. thing. Yeah. This thing is fascinating. Um Yeah. Basically, they would call, they would have the manager, they would. get the manager on the phone and they'. be like, "Uh, yeah, I'm calling uh with. the police. Um, we have security camera. footage that one of your employees has. been stealing." They would give a. description of the employee. Then the.

manager would bring the employee into. the back room with the police, alleged. police officer still on the phone and be. like, "Okay, yeah, I need you to have. the employee take off their shirt.". Right. Yes. And a lot of times the. person might have access to the cameras. in the um in the McDonald's or in the. restaurant so they can actually watch. this somewhere a far, right? Totally. Yeah. So, but anyway, they'd be like, "Yeah, now have the person lift up their. arms, have them take off their bra or. their pants or whatever, spread their. leg, and you have this.

Mc [ __ ] crazy. You have a manager in. McDonald's and an employee of. McDonald's. another but they're looking. at each other's private parts for. something they didn't even say what they. stole a lot of times like what are they. gonna like you know and one of them was. a husband and wife the the manager the. male manager and the female is a husband. was a wife that's the best yeah the the. the the lady was like oh my god cuz she. was a manager she's like it's busy today. I have to get back to work she's like. let me call my husband who I trust.

and let him do it to come down here and. finish this examination of this of this. female male employee. So now you have. the husband of the McDonald's manager. sitting there strip searching a female. employee who's done nothing. The whole. time there's a cop on the phone. It's. been a couple hours now. And they at one. point they told the girl, the woman, I. believe, to [ __ ] the man. So now you. have somebody who allegedly stole from. McDonald's blowing the boyfriend of a.

man. I just Sorry, this is crazy. I I I. don't understand how they could go that. far. And then at a certain point, the. janitor literally gets on the phone. Yeah, this is a part right here. On. February 2003, a phone call is made with. McDonald's in H I'm sorry, man. This. [ __ ] in Hinesville, Georgia, the female. manager who believes she was speaking to. a police officer who was with the. director of operations for the. restaurant's upper management that she. believed she was speaking to, took a. female employee into the women's. bathroom to strip search her. She also. brought in a 55-year-old male janitor.

who conducted a body cavity search of. the woman to uncover hidden drugs. Yeah. It's just crazy. And then the j and I. think it was a different instance, but. the janitor got on the phone one time. and was like, "Oh, this guy's just. screwing around." Yeah. And hung up the. phone. So then people are just standing. there naked and like, "What the [ __ ]. just happened? God, this is crazy that. this was just such a huge thing that. happened." Can you imagine that? And it. started I I couldn't believe it was. true. I could not believe it was true. And it started when you were saying.

about the authority, right? Like just. the authoritative voice or or thinking. that it's a police officer that these. people would be willing to do that. It's. unbelievable to me. Is pornography. causing a problem in your life? Do you. find yourself watching porno for longer. periods of time and having trouble. stopping? Is porn affecting your. relationship or dating life? Well, you're certainly not alone. Watching. pornography has become so commonplace. today, and oftentimes men use porn to.

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www.valorreoververycoaching.com or email. them at. admin. valorreoververycoaching.com. Thank. you. Yeah. Can you take me on a call. that um that kind of baffled you or. still sticks with you? This one is is is. tough, man. So, the call comes out and. and this was a swing shift call. So, it's usually right before, you know, after 3:00 p.m. Swing shifts 3 p.m. until about 1:00 a.m. So, the night.

hours about um 9 to 11 are the hours. where things really pop off. So, this. call comes out uh where this these guys. are screaming on the phone, "My. brother's been shot. My brother's been. shot. My brother's been shot." It it. happened at the uh at the Circle K. So I. drive up to the address of where it is. and these two guys are on the sidewalk. just whailing like freaked out. Like you. I know that true. That's why it's hard. for me to watch TV shows, but these. these guys are truly in trauma and. they're whailing and I could see the car.

where they're talking about they're like. my brother, my brother, my brother. And. I go to the car and I get to the window. and I see this like this guy had a lot. of hair. It was all matted and mushed. and you can tell that he wasn't moving. and and I open and his face was just. because he had been shot in the head. His face was just mush and it was just. all this nasty purple blood and. everything. So I close the door and I go. and I talk to the brothers and they tell. me that they were driving by the Circle. K and that someone shot at them. And I.

was like this, it didn't just didn't. make a lot of sense to me. that, you know, the entry wound was in. the back of the head and there's no. entry in the window of the car. What. turns out is it was three brothers in. the car and the brother in the back seat. was playing with the gun and he put it. to his brother's head joking around and. he pulled the trigger and shot and. killed his brother. And so in that short period of time, the. two alive brothers have to figure out a.

story because this happened very very. you know quickly. And I remember when I. because the brothers ended up confessing. to this is the trauma of killing your. brother and then having to make up a. story about it and having to deal with. that grief. one of the most like wild. crazy things because you do have it was. an accident but it's negligence but. right but the the biggest crime is that. he that he has to almost didn't deal.

with this burden. of killing his own brother it almost. sounds Shakespearean or something it is. and you know that's you know playing. with guns is another thing because one. of the first calls I ever had to. translate on was because we had we have. AAA well I don't say we cuz I don't live. there anymore but in Vegas they have AAA. um baseball and they had this AAA team. this guy was had Tommy John surgery and. Dominican guy had Tommy John and um so. he was partying with his friends. They. brought some girls over and he was. playing with a gun and shot this young.

girl in the head. She was probably like. 19 years old. Killed her. And I walk. into the I walk into the I walk. upstairs. I walk into the apartment and. the girl her eyes were open and she was. just to the side like this. And the guy. is just like he's completely freaked out. and he's thinking about his career, right? And I so I'm he didn't speak. English so I'm you know translating to. him in Spanish and I'm like the. stupidity again of playing with a. freaking gun. You just life is done you. know I mean you're done you career is.

what you're thinking about right now. How do you live with that? Don't even. think about the legal stuff that you. have to go through living with the fact. that you took this like 18 or 19 year. old girl's life because you wanted to. show off and play with your guns. So. that like there's another lesson. And. it's like, do not play with freaking. guns. And they're not toys. They're. really not toys. And so many people do. So many people do. It's ridiculous, dude. I would not. Yeah. We had a kid in. high school and um there was I guess. kids playing poker together and he was. messing with the gun and shot himself.

There were two brothers in our town and. one of them they were playing Russian. roulette together and they were idiots. I'll be honest. They were dumb, not. smart guys. And one of them shot himself. I mean, how But what a weird moment. Then you're. sitting, you're the brother like what. even we could have played. We could have. played hoops or something. You know, just like. it's heartbreaking, man. Responsible gun. ownership is good, but you know, when. when it comes to playing with guns or.

showing off with guns. Yeah. I mean, it's it's just one of the stupidest. things that you can possibly Have you. ever been involved in a shooting? Yes, I. have. And in fact, I was mentioning. earlier, I was involved in two and I was. a sergeant on nine. You were a sergeant. on nine shootings? On nine different. shootings. Yeah. So I've I've I'm. intimately uh And a shooting means. somebody shot somebody or it means. somebody shot an officer. It means an. officer shot someone. It can mean any of. those, but but the ones I was involved. in the the one that I was specifically. will reference is this interesting story. was a a cop buddy of mine. This mo this.

mom was taking her kids out and having. one of the kids like make a commotion. and then the rest of the kids would. steal stuff and run out. So my buddy had. a warrant for at a grocery store like. more like those uh Target type places. Got it. My buddy had a warrant for one. of the people in the family and he asked. me to go with them to serve it and it. was it was an arrest warrant. So, we get. to the apartment community and he thinks. he sees one of the guys involved in this. thing and and the guy I remember he had.

on these red cargo shorts, a white. t-shirt, white wife beater and uh he he. goes that's the guy. So, there's a thing. that we do is called contact cover where. one officer does all the talking and the. other one covers to make sure that um. the person's not doing anything and Oh, okay. So the guy up front can feel. comfortable knowing that the guy behind. him his sole his sole purpose is just to. see if this dude tries to make a single. move. Yep. It's called contact cover. And so I was the cover officer. And as.

I'm looking at the guy, I see in his. cargo pocket the outline of a. gun. And so our code for gun is 413. So. I made the 4 I give 413 to him to the So. my guy sees it. He's like, "Oh shoot.". So the guy was being a no. So there was. a yes people, no people, maybe people. And the guy was being a maybe maybe. person like maybe I'll comply and that. maybe people we want to get them in. custody. So I made the choice that I. knew I could tell it was the gun. So I. made the choice that I went and I.

grabbed it and this guy yanked away from. me and he got away. And so the foot suit. starts and he reaches. into his cargo pocket and I'm running. after him, gunn. And and this was um. around 4:30, 5:00 in Vegas, so it's. still very light outside. Mhm. And I'm. running after him and he keeps turning. around and looking at me and I keep. saying, "If you pull that gun out of. your pocket, I'm screaming, "If you pull. that gun, if you pull that" And then he. pulled the gun and I lit him up. I.

remember after I shot that, you know, he. does a somersault and everyone in this. place is screaming at the Target at our. apartment complex. At the apartment. complex, everyone's screaming and they. were This place was kind of anti police. They're like, "Oh, he shot that guy. He. shot that guy." And the the guy's mom. came out. No. She was one of the first. people to come out. He. lived. It turned out that it was a. replica gun. It wasn't even a real gun. Replica. It was a replica that looked. like a firearm. Was not even a real. weapon. It was not It was not a fireable.

weapon. It was a replica. What? That is even dumber than anything. Well, it it makes sense. It actually is. a blessing then. It makes sense. It. makes sense because it makes sense to. why because a lot of those guys will. they'll rob people with them. Oh, I see. Or or if someone, you know, and he he's. a a gang member and so a lot of times. they'll flash those or if they have the. inability to get something that's better. than nothing. Um, but it was just. incredibly and it became a race thing. which was really weird because I'm not. white. Um, you know, but the media.

portrays things a certain way and and it. flips. Was it a black uh perpetrator? Yes. Okay. Yes. He He was He is He's still alive. Um. Wow. And do you choose at that. point? Are you trying to maim someone? Are you trying to just slow? No. No. We. shoot to incapacitate. You're taught to. shoot center mass, but again, do you are. you do you train running at full speed. through an apartment? There's a whole. bunch of different dynamic that come. into play. Yeah, that's got to be kind. of fascinating with a lot of RA Yeah,

there's so much racial stuff surrounding. police and policing. Yeah. Um, what does. that look like from the inside? What's. that? Because if you were if it was a. black group and you got accused and. you're Dominican? No, I'm half black, half white. Oh, you are? Okay. So, you're black and white. Well, actually, both my parents are kind of mixed. So, I. guess I'm But I'm consider myself black. Yeah. But I speak Spanish cuz I learned. to speak Spanish as an adult. That was an intent of mine. I I respect. cultures. I think that and I lived in. another country that spoke Spanish. So,

I felt that if you go into another. country and learn their language. I. think that makes good sense. It just. helps you probably too. 100%. Yeah. And. probably help you so much in your. service in your and you know cuz. immediately you can relate with somebody. else. Yes. Um on a level that a lot of. people wouldn't be able to. Um yeah. What is race? What is that profile? What. is that like? There's so much racial. stuff that revolves around the police. all the time. Does that get. uncomfortable out there in the streets? What is it like? It's really interesting. because you know a lot of people being a. white. cop is really really difficult. a white.

male cop because so often the default is. that you did it because I'm this race. and you're white. And I was around cops. for 20 plus years. And I can't I can only think of one. instance, one instance where there was. an overtly racial thing that occurred. and it was a it was a comment that was. made in a briefing. room. And but as far as the treating of.

a person because they were a certain. race, I I I I've never seen that. And. I'm I'm hyper sensitive to that kind of. stuff. Like I study that. In fact, I. taught it for a while. And taught what. is that called? So, some people call it. diversity. I call my class was called. human and I called it the soul search. warrant. And I think that we all have. biases. All of us have biases. Oh, for. sure. And I think that you as a comedian. know that part of those biases is what. makes a lot of comedy funny. And most.

black comedians, the first thing that. they talk about is how black people are. a certain way and white people are a. certain way. I mean that that's just. kind of how we are. But we get along and. it works. But in policing to default. that because one person is one color and. another person is another color is the. wrong way to look at it. I mean this. whole thing that happened with George. Floyd. I mean we we're talking billions. of dollars and people who were the. cities were destroyed and all stuff. I. have yet to see a piece of evidence that.

Derek Schovin did that because George. Floyd is black. I I haven't seen that. Now, can I speak to the tactics? I can. of course speak to the tactics, right? But right, was race involved or was just. a guy maybe who didn't use the best. tactics in the moment who was probably. also scared? Who who knows what was. going on? I don't know exactly what he. testified. I studied that case pretty. close. I did. What did he What What did. Chovin say? Looked at that. So, I can. tell you that. So here were the factors. and this is a big can of worms for us to. open up but I'll speak to some.

specifics because you know there now. there's a push that he should be. released right I've seen that recently. but you're a police officer or you. you've been a sergeant you know I'll. tell you I'll tell you my thoughts on it. uh you want to talk to that about that. for sure and you're black and white yeah. exactly so we can All right so I'll tell. you my here's here's my take on it. um and because I have cops who say oh. yeah he was wrongly convicted he is. wrongly convicted. I say, "Okay, let's. just set that aside for a second." You.

roll up on that. scene and Chovin is has his knee on. Floyd's neck. Tell me what you're going. to do at that point. And he's not. moving. What are you going to do? And. every one of them says, "Of course, I'm. going to tell him to get off." So I. said, "Then we need to start from that. point about the sanctity of a person's. life. Let's forget about the fact that. George Floyd was likely on a very high. levels of fentanyl which was proven and. all that other stuff. But we're the. professionals, right? We're the professionals, right?

Like at what point do you not does the. governor inside of you not activate or. trigger that? It's like, okay, I have to. go here from policing to um person from. to being human, you know, or I don't why. can't policing be be human? You know. what I'm saying? That's Yeah. I'll give. you an example, Theo. Check this out, right? Judge me on this really quickly. Okay, this is a typical car stop. I pull. you over, Sergeant Curtis Von Police. Department. Reason I pulled you over is. because you were speeding. License, registration, and proof of insurance.

Please grade me on that. A, B, C, D. I would. say B. Okay, you give me a B on that. Okay. A to B. A to B. A to B. Okay. So. now you go to a restaurant. I come up to. your table. I'm like, "Hello, Mr. Von. My name is Christopher. I'd like to tell. you about our specials today. We got a. chicken. We have uh a fish and we have a. new tiramisu. Um how grade me on that as. your server? A to B. So I'll tell you I.

would not give the that server an A to. B. And most most servers are going to. come to you and be a lot more congenial. than I I was to you. Probably a little. more energetic. A little more energetic. A little more. Don't Shouldn't policing. be even better? How about this? How you doing, sir? Sergeant Curtis, uh, Vaughn Police Department. I know this is. probably not what you want to be doing. right now, but I just want to explain. something to you. We had a little kid. almost got hit the other day and we're. pulling people over. Just to warn them. to slow down a bit. If you give me your. license, registration, proof insurance,

I try to get you out here as quickly as. possible. I'm sure that you probably. have something else more important to. do. I just want to let you know that I'm. here to help. That was maybe what 30 more seconds of. words. Yeah, I'm on a date now. Yeah, but it changes the whole It changes the. whole See, it changes the whole thing. But this mechanics has changed. So, what. happened with this? Let's go back to. what we were talking about with with um. Chovin and George Floyd, right? When I watched the video, the you. definitely can see that George Floyd was.

having some issue with being. claustrophobic and getting inside the. vehicle. Okay. Now, we're not saying. that it's made for comfort and if you. get arrested, it's not going to be a fun. experience, but can we be a little bit. different? The one cop said, "I'll put. the window down. I'll put the window. down." And you can even see Floyd. saying, "I'll do the countdown. Let me. let me countdown before I get inside the. car." Is it possible? Is it possible for. us? It's especially if the person's. handcuffed to reach down into a degree. of humanity to another human being and. say, "You know.

what? Take a deep. breath. I'll count with you. Can we get. you in the car then? Let me tell you my. name. My name is Sergeant Curtis. I. don't want to hurt you. Look at me in my. face. Look at me. Take a deep breath, my. man. Okay, I see you're breathing a. little bit better now. You're going to. be going to jail and you got to get in. the car, but you got to work with me. Now, granted, I'm talking in an air. conditioned place. I slept in a great. hotel last night, and it's a lot easier. than being in the field. But I've been. in the field, you know, I've been in the.

field, and I've made mistakes, but we. got to be better than kneeling on a. person's neck for that period of time. So, the specifics of what he was. convicted for, I know that we could pull. it up and look at it. One of the charges. I believe he was convicted for was. involuntary secondderee murder, right? I. don't believe it was in I don't believe. he viol I don't believe he was trying to. kill George Floyd. I don't believe he. was trying to kill him, but could his. behavior have contributed to it? Possibly. You stealing kneeling on a.

person's neck for that period of time. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's interesting. And. then you're like thinking of what all is. going around around the environment at. that moment. If people are are you do. you get caught in a almost in cuz you're. a h you're still a human, right? And if. you're do you get caught in some weird. um flight or freeze thing 100%. You're. 100% right. Because if you listen to the. tape, there's a guy on the side that's. yelling at Chovin. He's saying, "Look. what you're doing. Get off that man's. neck." You know what? And then what. happens is then it becomes a battle.

between the officer and this other. person. I'm standing my ground and. you're yelling at me and I'm the officer. here and in 9 minutes or six minutes or. whatever minutes it was is really a mere. is seconds because I'm locked into this. as opposed to focusing on this person. That's why bystanders to me if you want. to be a bystander stand back, record, but don't be yelling. You're not helping. the situation. That ruins a lot of. things. I think it does. But then also. it's like you wouldn't have, you know, it's just it's so it's fascinating all. the things that go on in that moment and. how equipped are police officers um how.

equipped are human beings to deal with. all of that at once. So now you're being. recorded. You're in control. You're. scared for your your own safety. You're. should be scared for the safety of your. perpetrator or the person that you're. putting under arrest, you know. Um it. just it's I don't know how a human. system even figures all that out. You. you sometimes you don't and we see what. happens when you don't. That's why. mental health awareness is so important. for police. It's it's it's so so.

important and not to be stuck in that. that that just police ecosystem and have. other things to do because that's what. happened with that in my opinion that's. what happened with that chovin thing is. what that he got locked into I'm the. officer cuz police have this thing. called ask tell make ask tell make you. ask them to do it they don't do it you. tell them to do it then you make them do. it got it definitely but that model only. works. sometimes there is a model. So the. father of modern day policing is a guy.

named Sir Robert. Peele. Back in the 1800s, he created the. first modern policing in England. Sir. Robert Peel known as the father of. modern policing for establishing the. first modern police force in London. That's why they call police Bobbies. because of after him. Oh Robert Yeah. Bobby Peele. Um known as Bobbies or. peelers. How did Peele perform policing? Go ahead. So what he did was really. interesting. He he created, you know, this thing where it was the the.

principles of of policing that really. the policing should be modeled after. I. think that you could probably pull those. up, the nine principles of policing. But. one of them that I find interesting and. that I've always found this, he talks. about persuasion, advice, and warning. I. remember because of P AW, persuasion, advice, and warning. So while modern day. police have ask, tell make Peele talked. of this thing called persuasion, advice, and warning. So is there possible I. could persuade this person and obviously.

if it's if it's a a dynamic situation. and I got to take care of business then. I have ask make always in my pocket. right I got a big tool belt but is persu. is persuasion advice warning something. else I can put in my belt can I persu. potentially persuade this person because. time is often on the police officer side. persuasion can I give him some advice. listen to me sir listen if you don't the. other officers are going to come here. and they're going to make it more. difficult don't you see that I'm working. with you and we can work together and. get this thing done we can do this. together. Mhm. Warning, if the other. officers come and I step back, then.

they're going to be a lot different than. I am. This is just another tool that the. police can put in their belt so that we. don't have to get into this situation. I. bet you if Derek was to be able to go. back and think back, I bet you he would. have done things differently in my. opinion. Yeah, I'm sure you kind of What. did he say? Did he What was his. testimony? What were the key points from. his testimony from Derek Chauans? Did he. have Did he take the stand? He decided. not to testify in his own defense. exercising his fifth amendment right. Hm. Wonder why they made that choice.

Because you would. think, oh, I don't know. But he's got. the federal case, the federal case, and. he's got the state stuff. And I think. he's run has another case running. concurrently for tax evasion as well. So, he had a whole bunch of different. things going. And I'm not saying that he. was guilty of any of of all those. things. No, I think you're just looking. at what happened. But it is fascinating. how that turned into a racial thing, though, as well. And I say that all the. time. Is it? Yeah. Which which which. case had that Can we definitely say that. was race? Which one? It's very difficult.

to find that case. And just cuz if you. call Well, what percentage of officers I. thought this I thought that well each. police department should have five. different races at it and you call and. then that you get that race to come. Right. Then that way nobody could ever. say that again. Yeah. But you know, I. mean that would be absolutely. ridiculous. But it's like is that what. we should that is that you know I think. that that become I I I I don't agree. with that model because I think that. that separates us more and more but you. go to any bar in downtown Nashville and. you're going to find people of all.

different races sitting around and you. might engage with a person. It takes us. back away from the content of one's. character. I don't you know what people. call racism I think that it's more bias. because I agree it's more it's much more. bias than it is racism. I I give you an. example. I was invite in the Vegas airport. This. guy is walking in front of me. His pants. are like sagging down and you could see. his underwear. What was really. interesting was it was like this really. interesting floral print and his socks. matched his underwear and I had a beer.

or two. So I wasn't mess with the guy. I. was walking by. I said, "Oh man." I. said, "Dad, them underwear nice. They. look good with them." And he turned. around. He was like, "Who are you. talking to?" Like I mean going off. And. then a TSA agent comes up and like. what's the matter? And he said, "He's. talking about my" and I was, "This is me. in civilian clothes." He says, "He's. talking about my underwear." And the and. the uh agent, the the the TS agent says, "Well, they do match your socks." And. the guy gets pissed off and walks away. Now, you can picture this situation. happening, right? Mhm. Now, when you.

picture the situation happening, did you. think it was a black guy? I don't know. At first, when you said. pants sagging, I did. There you go. But. but then when you said matching with the. and black people like to match. So I. thought that as well floral print then I. started to think maybe it was like a. white guy from maybe Milwaukee or. something or Toledo or something trying. to celebrate. But but the but the point. in in the story and it was a black too. but in the point in the story is that we.

have biases to behavior. It wasn't. because of the person's skin color. And. then what happens is if we create a. squad of police that says just because. you're black that means you're going to. respond to black people. What if that. doesn't necessar what if you don't oh I. don't think it'll work. I'm just trying. to think how do you get the racial. issues out of it because yeah at a. certain point you do get t like I don't. know I don't see as much racism like I. grew up in the south you know when you'd. hear some people's dad they were just. sit there and just say the n-word or uh.

and call people or whatever and just. like um they would say a lot of racist. jokes that was it you know that was a. lot of what you'd hear but I don't even. hear that [ __ ] anymore dude like I'm not. saying it doesn't exist It's because. people are scared to say it. It's. because they're scared they're going to. be true. But I think people I think more. people now I don't think that there's. more racism than they used to be. I. think sometimes there is a fear of some. black cultures in areas because I think. people probably want to be safe and they.

fear that some of those areas don't have. a lot of safety. But I don't know that. that's true. And I also don't know um it. kind of that that kind of bums me out. sometimes cuz it's like well I would. like to go support probably more like. blackowned businesses and see them in. certain areas probably but I think. there's sometimes where I'm just. probably afraid it's like I don't want. to risk my safety today to do that in in. in a in a predominantly black. neighborhood. Right. Yes. And maybe and.

that may sound racist saying that it. doesn't sound well I don't know why you. why would that sound racist. Yeah. Why. would that sound racist? Okay. Name me. three major cities where you think. there's a lot of crime. Three three. major cities have a lot Oh, yeah. Memphis. Okay. Um, New Orleans, probably. Los Angeles. Okay. Um, which cities have more crime? Yes, they do have more crime. Okay. How. about What about Chicago? Chicago. Chicago. Now, when you think about that. crime, do you think of it as black. crime? I think maybe in some areas. So, you probably do because you hear a lot.

about Chicago black crime. You hear that. term a lot. I'll show you something. Can. you pull up um heyjackass.com? Have you. heard of this? Heyjackass.com. This is a guy who tracks every single. shooting that occurs in Chicago by the. minute where it occurs by race and time. So, how does he do it? I was going to. He's like the Santa of bullets or. whatever. How does he get it all done? She said Santa of both or like how's he. doing it all in one? Before you look, before you look, before you look, how.

many people do you think have been shot? Just shot. Shot in Chicago. I'm going to. get this right. I bet I would say. uh 41 people. 41 people shot in Chicago. on March, right? Oh, deceased or just. shot? Just shot. Oh, just shot. I would. say 71. 71. All right, take a look. This. is cool. Oh, total shot 87. So for for. year total, look at year total year. today, 80 330 total shot. So that means.

330 people have been shot and we're not. even how does how does a mayor have a. job if that many people get shot? Now. look at it by race. 75% black, 18.8% Hispanic, 6.4% white or. other. So it's so there's more shooting. between with blacks and. Hispanics than whites or of the three. black leads 75%. And this is only. Chicago. But do you So why do you think.

this is right? Because you've seen. you've been on the streets. I mean this. was Las Vegas which probably has more of. a Latino population as well. Huh? It. does. Why do you think this is? Is it. just a financial thing? Is it a culture. thing? Is it um cuz you start to think. that so like the weird thing about crime. is it starts to become part of a. culture. So you're saying a lot of very. very interesting things and I'll speak. to the first one first. Why do I think. it is? I think it's because.

um Okay, let me speak to the specific. question. Why is it that it happens in. black culture? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I. think about it's like, yeah, it start. well, it starts to seem like, well, that's become part of the culture and so. it's just too risky. It's like I want to. Okay, it's I think it's part of the. subculture. Oh, that's a better term. I. think it's part of the subculture. Yeah, that's what I mean. That's a better. term. Yeah. Some don't know the words. It's part of a subculture. It's part of. the subculture. And so, I'll tell you. why it happens is because not enough. people call it out.

It's okay. for. rappers to come and be in places and. celebrated when rap culture has become. so openly violent not only towards each. other and gangs gang versus gang but. towards women and that is not called. out. That's where people who have a. voice need to stand up and say, "No, young man, that's not appropriate. That.

that doesn't work." When I spoke to you. in the beginning, I said, "I cannot. overstate the importance of my father. being in my life, but for that fact, I. was able to reach the degree of just. basic, you know, and I'm not going to. say success. I'm I'm I'm content with. what I have. But but for me having both. of my parents in my life for such a. significant time, a lot of these kids. don't. A lot of them do not." And the. fact that that's not called out and. that, you know, and I don't want to turn. this into a political conversation, but. I have very strong feelings about the.

fact that there's so many people in one. in in a certain group that don't say. that is not acceptable. behavior. We we're not going to condone. that. You must act and behave. differently, otherwise we can't hang. here. Yeah. And until that happens, that's going to just be a continuous. cycle. Yeah. The media I mean they you. can't you couldn't say that there's a. black crime problem you know it's like. the media is very there is a black prime. crime problem there is but you can't. yeah the media seems like they never.

would say that you know and the media is. kind of what people absorb you know but. I think now you're able to have people. who have come out of black culture and. are I think there's I think there are. good leaders out there who are saying it. you know I think that hopefully it's. going to change too you know subulture. because the shitty part is it's like. yeah I I had a friend and She had the. she had like a hatch store and she. wanted me to come by and I was like I. it's just that's too I don't want to be. in that area. I don't want to be in.

there. But to be like I don't want to. shop, you know? It just kind of sucks, you know? Like [ __ ] like that kind of. sucks, you know? Self-preservation is a. thing, right? That's the first thing. And it's the best thing. It's like I'm. not going to [ __ ] risk my life to get. a [ __ ] fitted, you know? Yeah. But at. the same time, it would be nice to, you. know, it's like and that's not. everywhere. And that's but it's like. Yeah, that kind of [ __ ] sucks, dude. You. wish that [ __ ] would go away because it. [ __ ] sucks and it makes cities bad, man. Like, um, New Orleans has a lot of. that murder over there. A lot of. black-on-black murder. And it makes you.

not want to be around certain like it. makes you just not be able to relax and. enjoy yourself. At 300 and some people. have been shot and there's a mayor who. still has a job. So, being an officer. and um being a sergeant, what what. effect can the mayor really have on the. crime in an area? So the mayor, so we we. have a unique situation in Las Vegas. where we didn't report to the mayor. The. our sheriff was was an elected official. So the police in Las Vegas didn't have. to worry about politics with a mayor. The sheriff was almost every single time.

a police officer before. And in fact, the former sheriff who was the governor. now was one of my sergeants. He. understood policing. So the top ranking. law enforcement person understood. policing. And I think that that became. in a very effective model where you. don't have to report to a mayor. That. mayor uh is is is dealing with politics. and the police chief has to report to. that mayor. So how do we affect this. situation happen? It's not the police. that are going to fix. I mean in the. immediate they can put a band-aid on it.

and put cops on dots and corners and do. stuff like that. But we have to say. fathers have to be in households. They. have to raise their kids. I can tell you. in the beginning when we started. speaking I said that if I was to one of. the other things I said that affected me. is the times that I didn't spend with my. children when I could have where I was. either working or being selfish and. doing something on my own whatever. fathers have to be involved in those. lives otherwise those young men are. going to continue to do the same exact. thing in New Orleans in Memphis in. Chicago every one of those things we.

should be screaming at the top of our. lungs when we see that 300 something. people were shot in one city and that's. okay how is that okay it's Not. But then. you'll see people protesting about this. or protesting about that and claim to. really care about humanity. But before. we're done with this um podcast, there's. going to be at least two or three and. maybe 10 people that are going to shot. across all these different cities. But. you know what? We we don't you know. there's a saying that says all men are. hypocrites. Most deny it. I myself admit.

it. And I do. I admit I'm a hypocrite. My life is good, Theo. If I really. really cared. If I really really cared, and this is an honest admission, then. maybe I would as a retiree with all the. time I have, maybe find one of these. Chicago kids and spend time with him and. do something. And maybe at some point in. my life, I will. But I think that we. have to call out our own hypocrisy in. life and say that we as Americans love. our lives the way they are. These people. protesting all these places, they. getting a a latte at Starbucks right. afterwards, getting on TikTok and.

sending out videos and claiming that. they're revolutionaries. They're not. revolutionaries. There are no real. revolutionaries right now. And thanks. for sharing, dude. I know that, you. know, I appreciate you sharing. Forgive. me for preaching, man. Now, I don't know. if we sound preachy, you know. I I think. it's okay, you know, like like two of my. black friends got killed in drive by. shootings in New Orleans like in the. past eight years. Um, and they didn't catch the guys that. did it. Um, actually one of the guys. they did, one of them they did catch the. guy that did it. Um, but just like it.

was like uh just [ __ ] in the city. just [ __ ] shooting, you know, and it. starts to get sad. It starts to get like. I don't know. Like people ask me now, "What should I do when I'm in New. Orleans?" And I, you know, I say, you. know, these are places to go, but don't. go in these areas, you know? It kind of. [ __ ] sucks. It's like, but what I was. thinking was um we had a guy named. Richard Ree on and he said, "Well, one. of the problems these days is there's. not a lot of young male uh role models, right? There's not a lot of young male. role models." And he said a lot of men.

used to be teachers. I don't have a lot. of male teachers anymore. He said there. a lot of men um were boy scout and cub. scout leaders, troop leaders. Um there. was more I guess more young men used to. be involved in the church, right? So you. had and obviously some of this [ __ ] got. haywire and some of those people got. molested or whatever, but outside of. that there's just not a lot of um a lot. of male role models. And so it's like. how do we start to become male role. models in our community? Right. Did you. did you did you mean just male role.

models or did you mean black male role. models? I just meant male I think male. role models. His his work is just. looking at um it's the uh the founding. president of the American Institute for. Boys and Men. Uh he's the author of. several books including boys and men why. the modern male is struggling why it. matters and what to do about it. his was. just saying that yeah it used to be like. so to become if you have spare time to. become a baseball coach to do the big. brother program if you can commit the. time to it like because it takes like a. lot of real time to do those things. Um.

and it really kind of just put me on. notice like yeah how do I create. something that's or just give back to. like you know since I don't have any. children yet how do you be a part of. that you know because I think some of. our men too this is something that I. believe is happening is our men are. still being really young. Mhm. It's like. we don't have to grow up. It's true. It's very true. And look, I'm [ __ ]. I'm still trying to not be grown up, but. I got to [ __ ] grow up, dude, because. of they're coming after me or whatever, you know? But nobody is, but my mom's.

like, "What are we doing?" You know, like, "Are we getting are you going to. get a family or what's going to go on?". Do you want a family? I think so, dude. Because I think I would miss out on it, you know? I'd like to have a son, be a. good dad, make my wife happy or whatever. until she gets [ __ ] all pissed. What's stopping you? Huh? What's. stopping you, dude? I haven't even met. my wife yet, first of all. And I'm going. to be [ __ ] I got some [ __ ] to tell. her when I do meet her. I'll tell you. Do you pray for her? Huh? Do you pray? Yeah, I do pray about it. Do you pray. for her specifically? No, I haven't. prayed for her specifically. But I do. pray. That's a good point. I guess she's.

alive. So if she's alive, maybe a good. prayer would be, you know what, cuz just. think she's doing something right this. second. Just think if you started to. fervently pray for that specific person, you'll be building her before she even. gets to you, bro. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's. like creating when you get to make your. own person on on uh NBA 2K or whatever. The spiritual side though. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got you. Yeah. I got you. But yeah, I made a list. of like, you know, things I would like, but then it's like I don't want to get. too locked in. But I That's a good call, man. Yeah. And just pray that God, you.

know, I I have been praying that God. gives me um the just the ability to lean. more into becoming who I need to be to. be in that situation, you know. Can I. ask you a semi-personal question? Yeah. Is the reason why maybe holding you back. a little bit the fact that you still. like dating multiple women or like being. you don't really want to lock down. You. kind of really want to experience more. Well, I think you know I've thought. about that. I. like I don't know. It's been hard with.

work. It's like work is my biggest. relationship. I mean, when I have a free. moment, I'm working, I just I like it, you know, where I'm planning or I'm. thinking what could I do? And not even. just work, but like how could I start to. do like work that is more um giving back. to the community, like, you know, but. you start to think of like, okay, well, what like what can I create now that. could really be part of something cool. or help people? Um, and I think we all. think like that, but but yeah, so just. any facet of like what can I create. while I'm still have some creativity in.

me, you know? And then as far as dating, like I try to put myself out there, you. know, I'm not on the. apps, but I'll meet girls, go on dates. You know, I'm pretty brave to be like, "Oh, let's meet up for a coffee or let's. grab a dinner or something like that." I. feel like I'm kind of tired of running. around to be honest. I think it's kind. of leaves out of your system a little. bit. It does. Um Yeah. So, that's kind. of where I feel like I'm at. Cool. And. then it's like you get into an age range. where you're like, "Okay, well, you know, it's kind of tough.

Sometimes some people have children.". So, but then you go, but once you. realize that, you're like, "Okay, well, I never thought about it if I would date. somebody with children, you know?" So, um, then you start to think about that. and learn different little things and. stuff. Was sleeping in the same bed with. a person, does that bother you to Yeah, that bothers me a lot of times. I don't. like it that much. But so maybe that's. something that you could find in common. with a person and maybe your intimacy. comes together at a certain space and. you still have enough space to be apart.

from each other. And if they have if on. the at the jump if they're cool with. that, maybe that's something that you. can start off from that point cuz some. people don't like to sleep together. You. heard of sleep divorce? Uh-uh. You never. heard of sleep divorce? No. But I would. love if my wife had her own room though. Yeah. Sleep divorce is where people um. don't sleep in the same bed, but they. maintain an intimate relationship and. then um their relationships actually. flourish on and I don't like to call it. sleep divorce. I like to call it like. solitary uh intimacy like where you're. cool being by yourself and you're cool. being by yourself when we come together. whenever. Just some stuff to throw. No,

I think it's neat. I think there's stuff. like that. Relationships are kind of. evolving and stuff too. I think people. are figuring out kind of what works for. them. I think sometimes I've been afraid. to maybe even say what I feel like if I. would be like, "Hey, I'd love it if my. if I could have a separate bedroom than. my wife, you know, and if we wanted, you. know, like then we could have our own. rooms." I think that that's the most. awesome thing possible and that would be. fine. Yeah. So, but I think for for. years you get caught in this idea like, "Oh, that's going to be crazy to say to. somebody, you know, but then I think as.

time goes on, you're like, uh, nothing's. really that crazy. You just have to say. it and see if somebody else is okay with. it, you know? You've talked a lot about. like policing and like how to police. That seems like to be something that you. care about. Has policing changed a lot. over the years. Do you feel like Yes. Um. because of, you know, technology and the. advent of of cameras and everyone, you. know, when I came on the police. department, people defaulted to the. police being right. Now, people default. a lot of times to the police having. questions about the police behavior. And.

it's it's fair because a lot of things. have occurred that would make people. question that. So, it's changed in the. sense that people always have the. cameras out. Obviously, police now all. have body cams. So, things are. documented and memorialized in a digital. format that we didn't necessarily have. before. And I think it's essential when. a person can take away a person's. freedom or take away a person's life. that it's documented. I got a ticket. that I, you know, I got a ticket first. ticket in my life. I got it in um last. in July. Oh, really? It was the.

trippiest story and it made me realize. what people have to go through and and. and so check this out. So in Florida, I. I I have a house in Florida and I was. riding my ebike on the beach just. pedaling. There was a a plastic cup. I. pick up the plastic cup and I I ride my. ebike over to throw it away and I turn. around and I use my throttle to go back. All of a sudden, this buggy with lights. and siren comes screeching up on me on. the beach and this cop jumps out. First. thing he says to me.

is, "I need to I need you to get off the. bike and I need to see your license.". Those are his words as soon as he stops. me. And I don't know if he was. intimidated by me or what. And I was. like, "Well, you're not going to get any. problems out of me." I said, "Listen," I. said, "I'm a retired cop. I'm cool. I'm. not going to do anything to you. This is. Oh, there you guys are right there. That. that that's that's the cop. Is that. Shawn Kingston? [Laughter]. He does look like Sean an older version. of Sean Kingston. Yeah. I mean, he was. sweating. I mean, he really I mean, he. was just looked like I I just can't even.

explain how stressed out he was over me. riding my electric bike on the beach. And he wrote me a ticket. And so I was. like, you know what? I'm going to ride. this whole thing out because I want to. see what it feels like from the side of. because I gave out a lot of tickets. I. want to see what it I went to court and. everything. I had to go before a judge. There were people in there for like. felonies and everything else. And I went. through the whole process and and and. and paid my ticket. And it it was. disappointing to me that at this day and.

age that there are still police that. don't that the first thing they say to. you out of their mouth is get off the. bike. I need to see your license. It. goes back to what I was saying to you. before about when I just, you know, told. you how I interact. I prefer a person to. interact. Why not do that? Well, I think. but now in some instances things are. manic and the situation has escalated. already, right? Like sometimes it's. already things are insane. Like if a guy. is shooting or something. Sure. I mean. you're gonna be Yeah, of course. I'm. saying just walking up person to person.

What is the daily interaction like? Yeah. Yeah. You Why every single. interaction from the police should be. something that should be not friendly. and almost as I'm the servant of cuz we. are we're supposed to be serving even if. a person makes a mistake. Come on, bro. Oh, I look I I love that idea. I love. the idea that that's what keeps it what. keeps that from happening then because. then you would almost want to be able to. check each day. Okay, how is this. officer doing today? Are they going to. be able to manage to be out there in.

this field or do are they getting paid. enough to be able to take care of. themselves to get um massages or ice. packs things that people need though. that to de-stress them? Dude, I go get a. massage. I it'll change the way I talk. to my mother on the phone. It's like I. love that concept, you know, but it's. like yeah, it seems like we would be. able to take care of these people more. who are the really the saves of our. society that are like drain, you know, they're the capture. They're the catch.

at the drain, you know, that analogy. You know, they to me I think it would. actually make policing less stressful if. the police interaction from the police. side is that entree into being so kind. and polite from the very beginning of. the stop because you're not going to get. into that many arguments with people cuz. most people like dag on it. I've written. tickets to people that are like, "Thank. you." You know, because and I'm not. saying that I was great at doing there. were a lot of cops who know how to talk. and and and act that way. And it's. usually when you get older. It's just. that there's so if you look if you know. if everything was like a nail, well, if.

if you have a hammer, everything looks. like a nail or whatever. If the hammer. is your only tool, then everything looks. like a nail. And that's the only way. that you deal with things is hammering. it in as opposed to trying other. methods. Make that tool belt bigger. Yeah. I mean, I'm learning that in my. own life, man. I've really showed up. with a hammer a lot of times and trying. to have less of it. And uh it's been. getting better. Oddly, I just find. little moments where I'm like, I've. tried that so many times waiting or. waiting for somebody to act a certain.

way towards me instead of just acting. that way. Yes. [ __ ] That's a [ __ ]. I've spent a lot of my life waiting. Oh, I'm I'm just I'm just going to wait for. you to act this way towards me cuz I. deserve that if that's the way it's. supposed to be or something. And not in. like a way of like. um praise or anything like that, but. just even something simple like a. relationship, work relationship or even. with with family. I'm going to. wait, you know, instead of like I'm. going to wait for you to hold my hand. instead of me just holding your hand. type [ __ ] you know? That and that's.

deep, man. you know, the way that you. adjust, evolve, and treat people. And I. learned this very interesting story when. I first heard on the police department. and there's race in incident here. I was. coming on graveyard. This is downtown. There's a foot pursuit, swing shift, gets the guy in custody. The sergeant, I. was an officer at the time. The sergeant. calls me over and asks me to transport. the guy. I get there and the guy's. leaking and a black dude. He's pissed. And two officers that took him into. custody, white. One of the officers was. a guy who was a senior field training.

officer and he was about to go to SWAT. and I'm this rookie rookie. I come over. and the black dude he's his eye is. leaking and um they call medical and. medical comes while I'm sitting there. The sergeant says, "Hey, you take him. because you know he figured he the guy. would feel more comfortable with me cuz. the guy was saying oh they they just. roughed me up." So I get the guy uh I so. this is the important part. The FTO has his handcuffs on the. suspect. What you're supposed to do is.

conduct a pat down, go through the whole. process, put your handcuffs on the. person, and then transfer him in the. car. I didn't want to offend the FTO by. making it seem like I didn't trust his. pat down. So, I put my cuffs on the guy, I take the guy in the and I'm getting. ready to put in my car, and the. ambulance lady says, "He can't go. straight to jail. You got to take him. over to UMC, the which is the hospital, because they got to sew that up. take. him over to UMC. We go there, the doctor. says, "I got to unhand cuff his hand and.

cuff him to the gurnie and I'm talking. to this dude and I'm just like vibing. with him and like I just I felt kind of. bad for him, right? Like he just was. like, you know, you look at a person. just dejected like their life sucked and. he was being booked for running, you. know, they were trying to stop him. He. was running, right? And he's leaking. like just it was just like his life was. sucked." So we get down to the hospital, they sew him up, I recuff him, bring him. to the to the jail, CCDC, the detention. center, county detention center. I get. him inside. Before we before we get.

there, the guy said, he was John Doe at. that point. So if the person doesn't. tell us their name, we book him as John. Doe. The dude says to me, he goes, "You. know what, man? You've been cool to me. I'm going to tell you my name." He tells. me his name. I put it into the. computer. My computer starts going. crazy. All this information pops up and his. warrant pops up. The dispatcher says, "Ask me if I'm clear for the information. and he's wanted by the FBI murder by. burning.". I get him down to to the jail. Yes,

chef. That's crazy. The CO is one of my. boys and he goes screaming. He's like, "Chris, what the after?" And he's. yelling. He comes back this big huge. knife the guy had on him the whole time. Big big knife. You didn't check him? I. didn't check him because I didn't want. to offend the FTO. And the dude says to. me as he walks by when they brought him. out because he got booked on additional. charge. He says, he said, "You know, if. you weren't kind to me the way that you. were, I could have done you in the.

hospital and I would have done. you. Me being kind and polite to that. guy saved my life from that stupid. rookie mistake that I made." Yeah. I'm. like, Yeah. I mean, I I don't know what. it's like. I don't know what it's like. How do you make sure that an officer. when they leave out for the day each day. is in the best state that they can be in. to be these liaons between right and. wrong in the world you know and and. that's what it's like how best can we. take care of these people these you know.

I feel like if we can afford to give. money to other places we should give it. uh poured into these people it should be. expens it should be a well- paid job and. I'm not saying that it isn't but it. should be you know I feel like these are. the [ __ ] a lot of Other shit's easy, dude. You should incent also incentivize. officers with more than 10 years to go. back to patrol. What one of the. challenges that happens is you get cops. that want to go through the ranks. They. get work go work in specialized units. and then never go back to patrol and. then patrol. Oh, so they get.

disconnected. They get disconnected from. troll and then you have young guys. teaching young guys and it's usually the. older wisdom that is what helps policing. because I remember I always was an. knucklehead when I was young. I know I. made a lot of mistakes. Oh yeah. Oh god. Yeah, dude. So, how do you get it to. become a hostage negotiator? Because. that's what you're became. So, be so, right? So, that's a special specialized. unit, specialized training. Um, you can. keep your primary responsibility cuz. what happens is you end up being on call. and that sucked cuz you would be in the. middle of something and you'd get a call. out and you have to go. And you have to.

go because there's not many of you. No. And you know, you need the team to. assemble. On rare occasions, you can. call out. Um, so they'll put out an. opening and every department is. different, but they'll put out an o you. know there's an opening and and then uh. you interview for it and then uh. you how well you do in the interview you. get selected and I was the young at the. time I was the youngest ever to be. selected on the team and um that was a. phenomenal experience and so once you're. on the team you know you get your you. know your phones but then you had pagers.

too and uh you get your gear your jacket. and everything and you just start. responding responding to calls. You. know, obvious obviously after training, start responding to call outs. And. um it's if anything on the department. weighs on you, it's talking to a person. for a significant amount of time or. listening to a person talk to for a. significant amount of time, being part. of the team, and then the person does. themsel cuz hostage negotiation isn't. really a good term for it. It's more of. a crisis negotiator because most of the. time that we do it, it would be from a.

person in crisis. a person that wants to. 405 as we said earlier that was. considered uneven themselves un. themselves. Yeah. Yeah. Take me through. a scenario like that. Okay. So an actual. situation or Okay. So um this is uh this. one is was deep and and I wasn't the. primary on this one and this is a story. that resonates and they even tell us in. the class now. Uh a guy who just life. was horrific. He had a terminal illness. He had uh and and I wasn't really when I.

was younger I didn't realize how many. people have back issues and their back. pain is just suffering and they don't. want to live anymore. And so I think. what he had was cancer. He had a back. issue that was just causing him severe. severe pain and his wife left him. because it was a whole bunch of issues. and he had financial issues for all. these things that he was going through. So what happens is you assemble a team. There's a primary, there's a secondary. The primary is a person that talks to. the person and they're on the phone. sole focus focus is to talk to the. person. Talk to the person that's in. crisis. That's in crisis. Okay. The. secondary is the person that is.

monitoring the primary and getting. information from the rest of the team. And the team can vary, but two positions. that are really important is the intel. leaison, which is the person that tells. the background of the person. The. person's this age, they they were. married this amount of time. All the. intel that you can possibly get on the. person, right? Okay. Then you have um the tactical liaison. person because you have a SWAT team. that's assembled as well because you may. have to potentially breach or go inside. of the residence. So tactically you have.

to know has this place been evacuated? Have you um is it does are there weapons. inside? Has this person done this. before? So the TAC and the intel person. feed this information to the secondary. The secondary can write notes and feed. it. Then you have a scribe who scribes. all this information. Okay. So the case. that I was talking to you about was this. same was this person who had gone. through this thing. He was going through. this thing and it was a newer negotiator. that was on as the primary. And after. all this time of talking this guy and.

getting to know him, it the guy. says, "I know exactly what you're doing. and you really suck at it." And then. shot himself in the. head. He said, "You really suck at it.". That was the last thing that he said. It would kind of suck though if that. you're considering unal aliveing. yourself, you get on with the negotiator. and he's just horrible at it. You're. like, "Oh god.". Like, yeah, dude, that's crazy. That's a.

mic drop, bro. Yeah, it is. And that's. that person had to live with that, you. know, that they're that's their their. record on the department is that they. that were they really good at it though. and the person just didn't know it. No, because you anybody could say that that. could be an [ __ ] move. You know, it. can be and part of it was that because I. mean how is it and what is good, right? How is it and what is good because I. mean I actually brought a scenario that. I was going to work through with you if. you wanted to try to be a negotiator and. and so so basically this is pretty cool.

man because this is this is a this is a. I put this together uh which is a. composite of a few different negotiator. things and I'm going to be uh I'm going. to tell you you're going to be the. primary. Okay. And uh so here's the. situation. Um you I can read it or you. can read it on what the situation is. And um actually I'll read it to you like. as if you just showed up at the scene. that you just rolled up. All right. Okay. Great. All right. Uh Theo, you're. going to be the primary on this one. Okay. You got it. The subject's name is. Michael Brady. He goes by Mike. The.

background intel we have is he's a. middle school biology teacher for the. last 14 years. He's a youth pastor at a. local Christian church for the last. seven years. He's 47 years old and he's. a white male. He's been married for 18. years. His wife's name is Carol Brady. She's 46 years old. They have one son. His name is Bobby Brady. He's 9 years. old. Today, Michael was put on. administrative leave for school when. sexual assault detectives came to the. school in an anonymous.

tip. He allegedly impregnated a. 14-year-old student. Her name is Pamela. Phillips. Mike Brady is currently barricaded. inside the residence. We got the call. because Mike came home, told his wife to. get out of the house as she entered and. up as he entered an upstairs bedroom and. shut the door. He appeared to be holding. a firearm. He is currently barricaded. inside the residence. Your personal. observation, Theo, is that as you pulled. up to the scene, you see a young boy in. a baseball uniform talking to detectives.

and he's crying hysterically. Presumably. this is the son Bobby. Okay. Tactical intel. There are two known. firearms. There's a shotgun inside. 45. caliber automatic pistol. SWAT has. arrived and they set up the inner. perimeter. Neighboring houses have been. evacuated. You can ask me three. questions and then I'm going to begin as. though I'm Mike and you're going to talk. to me. Okay. I asked you three. questions. You can ask me three. questions to get some information to get. started about the case. Yep. Okay. Um,

is it based on the Brady Bunch at all? A. little bit. I used that because I knew. I'd remember those names. Oh, very fair. Okay. Damn, that's one of my questions. Um, let me think. No, that one you can. throw us out. You can ask me three. questions that pertain to because you're. going to go online and when you go. online it's going to be pretty intense. Okay. So, I'm going to go online. You're. going to be talking to me and I'm Mike. Brady. Okay. Um, you're the primary. Has. Mike ever committed any priors? Prior. crimes or with with young women? Prior. uh like assault charges? Nope. He has. his his record is completely clean. Okay.

[Music]. Um, how tall is he? Interesting. question. Uh, he's 6 foot even. Okay. And is he on any medication? Very. good question. He is uh he takes. um uh u a sleeping pill to sleep. He has. a sleeping issue. Okay, sir. Hello. Hey, Mike. Yeah. Who's this? Uh, this is Theo. Actually, I'm the I'm.

working I'm here today, man. Just um I. really screwed up, didn't I, man? I think it seems like you've had a tough. day. I have had a tough day, but I mean. I I screwed up this time, didn't I? I. think you're probably going to have to. answer some questions, you know, but I think everything's going to be. okay, man. How's it going to be okay? This girl, this girl's pregnant, man. I. mean, how am I going to face anyone. after this? Well, I think you're going.

to have. to Her dad's going to be pissed. Yeah. I. mean, yeah, people are going to be. upset. I'm not thinking about her dad. I'm thinking about my family. Okay. People are going to Yeah, it's going to. be Yeah, man. It sucks. Okay. It does. suck. It sucks. But here we are. Yeah. I. mean, how am I going to face my son? Your son's pretty upset right now. Yeah, he is. Of course, he is. I knocked up a. 14-year-old girl. I'm a youth pastor in. a church. I teach at a school. My life. is over. Give me a good reason why I.

shouldn't just put this thing to my head. and bl my brains out. Cuz your son's. life is still. around. and that's not what he needs right now. You know, probably right about that. But. you know, I I mean, how can I face him, man? I think you call him first. Call him and say what? What would you. say in that situation? I don't know. Uh, [ __ ] I don't know. I would.

say I would tell him the truth. I would. say I messed up. And you think that's. the answer to tell him I messed up? I. know I messed up. I think it's part of. it. I know you know you did, but he. probably doesn't know what's going on. He doesn't. Is he out there right now? Yeah. You want me to put him on? Would. you? Yeah. Okay. How do you feel? How do. you think you did? Was that intense or. huh? It is intense. It is intense. [ __ ]. It's intense.

Cuz you're like, is now if even if you. get to that part, is he just going to. tell the son goodbye? Exactly. See, you. see Theo, you are super wise, brother. That's exactly why we wouldn't put the. son on the phone cuz that's exactly what. he would likely do. He would try. He. would likely. And so this is why we. train. This is why we train. So a couple. of other things, right? When we said. son, that was a good opportunity for you. to do what? Identify his son by name. Bobby because isn't Bobby different than. saying son. Yeah, it's different, right?

Yeah. My wife that was opportunity and I. knew that you know look instructional. use instructional. It's very. interesting. But that's when you say. Carol, right? You got Carol. Yeah. And. but what I like is that you humanize the. situation, right? Like you you that's. the thing again. It's where you get the. theo where like you he's talking to a. person that he could potentially relate. to and and you you create that kind of. that air about the the situation where. you would get other cops to be just. completely freaked out or completely.

militaristic, you know, and and I like. that you kind of humanize the whole. situation. And this is obviously super. condensed, but No. Well, the fascinating. thing to me is Yeah. when you realize. the gravitas of this like you think it's. easy and then even this is a placebo. even in that you're like I don't have. the answer right now and if I don't get. this right what happens and then I'm. starting to learn as I think about it. too I'm like well it's not about you. anymore it's about your son and then. that kind of makes me sad then it's like.

now suddenly I feel more feelings cuz. I'm like well [ __ ] now I'm doing this. really for the son and I didn't even. realize that until that moment you know. even though like you could be trained. for that it's like until that's said and. it's a real moment and you can picture. the sun and you God dude it's like it's. just scary and then at some point you. might agree that the guy it might be. best if he lets God just I don't know is. that crazy to say that I don't know I. don't think it is crazy I think it's.

normal there are so there are a lot of. people who not from obviously from not. from official police but there are. people even in their own mind would say. I wouldn't want to if if that was the. case. Right. Right. So I so I'll tell. you a situation that I dealt with and I. sent some audio for it. It was um a guy. named Michael Shiovalier. This was a big. case in Vegas. So here's what happened. So the call comes out. I'm a sergeant at. the time, right? Swing shift. Um so it's. still light outside. The call comes out. that a lady is talking on the phone to.

her friend and she the friend hears a. struggle and then all of a sudden the. line goes dead. She calls 911. and obviously we get dispatched and. sergeants when we hear certain calls. we're like that's something I should. roll to. We don't have to but that's a. call I should roll to. I happen to be. close enough to where the two offic So. it's one of those apartment um. communities where it's one floor, two. floors, then there's top floor and then. there's an apartment all the way down. here. So the officers I see I pull in. the parking lot and I see my officers. walking to the door. Then all of a.

sudden I see the door open and the. officers pull out their gun and fall. back like to try to get away from. whatever was going on at the door and I. hear them on the radio. 413. Subject has. a 413. So he the subject came to the. door with his arm around the female and. the and the and the firearm to the. female. I have my car in the parking lot. and then obviously code red. That means. only emergency traffic. All the officers. come. We get to the we get into the. front of my car and I have a a a dry. race and I'm on the hood of my car.

pointing out where I want my officers to. go and how we're going to deal with the. situation. One of my officers at the. time really sharp guy. He says, "Hey. Sarge, I got my rifle. In case he comes. out, let me go over to this pizzeria. right here and I can engage him if he. comes out with the gun. It great lesson. If one of your subordinates has a great. idea, be very quick to listen and learn. from them because it was a great idea.". Because the second that he gets over. there, Shiovalier comes out and starts. shooting at us. Wow. We all go down. My. guy engages Shiovalier at the door and.

he hit like hits the door frame and all. this wood and everything hits and. Shiovalier goes back inside the house. I'm like, I got to call in. There was no. time. No, no negotiators had not been. around, nothing. So, if I call him, he's. not going to be shooting. He's not going. to be hurt anyone. So, I get in and I. start having a conversation with. Shabalier and we develop a rapport. Interestingly, I was able to record a. segment of this conversation. I'll play. this. We'll play the conversation and. then I will tell you the nuances of the. conversation that occurred, the. aftermath of it, and how deep.

negotiations can be. Okay, cool. Yeah, tee that up there, Trev. I like to keep. my word and I know you do. And I. remember that you said that if you get. back on the phone with me that you and I. can work this out. Can we if if this. house we can come to some type of. agreement. and I'm a man of my word. I think it'll. I think the agreement that will come to. will be uh release of the hostage and. perfectly. uh see will be unharmed. But um.

I like what you're talking I like what. you're talking about and that peaceful. agreement is the route that we got to go. now. here. Oh, SWAT team is here. Christopher, I want you to tell the SWAT. team to move away from the front of the. door. Just tell them move them now. Would you tell them to move them now? Can I Michael? Can I tell you what's. happening? You tell them to move away. from the door. Okay, Michael, can I tell. you something? Tell them that. All. right, listen. I see them. Give me a. second. I see the ladder and I see them.

Yes, Michael. That's absolutely quiet. Listen to me. Let me just tell you. what's going on. Remember before I. hostage what? Remember before I. explained to you what was going on. Remember I tell you what, Michael. Michael, remember before I explained to. you what was going on? I tell you what, we're going. to call 911. and have this h Okay, so let me let me. give you some background on this. Okay, I I still get like really amped when. just listening to that again because it.

takes me right back there. So Michael. and I had been speaking for a while and. situation seemed like it was pretty much. cal. Negotiators were arriving, SWAT. team had arrived and they were setting. up in their. position. At that point, Michael freaked. out when he saw the SWAT team because. you see the SWAT team in their greens. and their rifles and you know that at. some point if you have a hostage that. something's likely going to happen. It's. not going to be good for you. Ultimately, the decision was made to go.

to condition two. Condition two is when. my job is to talk Michael in front of a. window so they can shoot and kill him. So, there is this interesting element to. talking to a person that you are talking. into their own demise. Wow. Talking to a. dead person. essentially. That ended up not. happening. What happened was. through electronic means we were able to. find out that Michael was doing things.

to the female. The decision was made to. do an um explosive breach into the. apartment and then take Michael out cuz. Michael had been her and I'm condensing. this because this is a very long drawn. out process. Got it. And he kidnapped. the woman. Yeah, he did. He she had her. door open and she was out talking to her. friend and he grabbed her and pulled her. inside. Got it. pulled her inside. Yeah. Lady's just out there talking. Unreal. So my So ultimately after SWAT goes in.

and kills him, she's laying right. there. Talk about PTSD or what a person. has to go through. It's absolutely. horrific. But let me talk about the. nuance of language. If you watched what. Michael was saying, mind you, the team. is listening and watching every single. word that a person says. There's one. very. very interesting part of his. conversation where he says the hostage. Now again we would always want to change. that to back to saying the person's name. but I didn't get a chance to do that and.

I did at other points in it but what he. says is she will relieved in perfectly. and he stops at perfectly and she will. be relieved released unharmed. So why. did he stop at perfectly? He stopped at. perfectly because he knew that he was. doing things that she was not. perfect. Our minds and our language are. so intimately connected. And when you. get to understand, see where he says. release of the hostage. He says, play. that again that part. Just back it up a. second or two.

Uh release of the hostage. imperfectly. Uh she will be unharmed. But you see, he stopped and he flipped. it because he knew that she wasn't. perfect. He knew he was doing horrific. things to her and we listen to these. types of things because we have to make. a decision. How long do we wait before. we go inside? Like is he just sitting. there or is he actually doing that. horrific cuz she be lose her life. Yeah. You have to make choices. And in. becoming a negotiator you even in your.

own life you're very very careful with. your own word choice. And often you I'll. find myself when I speak to people there. are certain words that I don't use. I. just have excised them from my. vocabulary. And and it's about and and positivity is. also like when I said sleep divorce like. I've caught myself because I don't like. to attribute divorce to something that. could potentially be positive. I I. almost I don't almost I commit myself to. utilizing the positive form of speech.

whenever I possibly can and it's. incredibly important. It changes a lot. of things especially when you're. inter. So, um I don't I don't use the. word problem like like I say challenge. because then you look at things as a. problem like like you who wants to see a. problem. I'd like to see a challenge. because if you overcome it then it's. just a challenge. You can almost always. if there's a negative connotation to. something even when you go out with your. mom to dinner if you think about and. listen to the words that you speak. there's almost always a positive way. that you could flip it. Back in the day.

I Wow. It really is. It's fun, too, when. you think about taking that much. It. does seem fun because then it kind of. adds a little bit of a challenge to your. own how you're communicating. And the. crazy thing is, you know who hears us. the most? Us. Yes. Yes. And it means you. care about what comes out of your. mouth. You know, I back in the day, I. wrote a dating book called Mac Tactics. Really? I did. It was called Mac. Tactics. The art the science of. seduction meets the art of hostage. negotiation. In 2005, I wrote this book. and it was about utilizing the land.

Yeah, there it is. It's about utilizing. language in the day. Yeah. Is it helpful? Yeah. How would a. host negotiator what are you tell me if. I'm talking to a lady? So, it's. interesting because it was more about. So, Mac, I changed MAC from from what. most people think Mac is and I changed. it to method, action, confidence, and. knowledge. I co-wrote with my boy Rob. Weiser. Rob is like really the I mean. Rob is an NYU dude, super smart. He's my. boy. Like, I was the the content guy. Okay. And so, method, action, confidence, knowledge. And all of those.

were what we called the pillars of power. and conversation was incredibly. important as far as method was concerned. and minimal encouragers like so you know. what a minimal encourager is and so. minimal encourager and paraphrasing are. two things that negotiators learn to. master. So a minimal encourager like. when I'm looking at you like how you're. like minimally like shaking your head. like that you're naturally encouraging. me to continue on with my speech. Okay. We have verbal minimal encouragers as. well like when a person's speaking. you're like okay. Yeah. Yeah. So when. you learn to naturally incorporate those.

things into your speech, it really. encourages a person to open up. And if. you're a good listener, you can hear. everything that a person wants to say to. you. And paraphrasing is when you listen. to what a person says, and then you say. it back to them in a slightly different. format, adding positives if necessary, which really shows them that you're. listening. And in dating, that's an. incredibly effective method of building. a bond between two people. Really? 100%. Let's try it. Okay. So, if you.

So, how do we do it? So, here's how we. do it. Like, uh, tell me about your what. your day was like yesterday. A small. segment of your day. Yeah, yesterday I. went to. um Yeah, I went to watch some music and. uh I was pretty tired. Probably stayed. up a little later than I should have, but had a pretty good time, you know. So, so when you were going out. yesterday, did um is it retired because. you were having fun or was it because. you um just didn't have enough rest? Oh,

I see what you're doing. So, you're. saying the same thing? I'm I'm I'm. saying back to you kinds that I'm. listening and that I care about what the. outcome was. Usually, men will encourage. I mean because then I feel a little bit. more okay, this is nice. This is fun. This is worth our time. Yeah. And it and. and it gives you time to just kind of. build a person's trust in sharing with. you. It conversation and listening are. two very very important things. Not to. be overbearing in your conversation and. listening to the other person and. showing that you're listening. Negotiators are very good listeners. The.

so me and me doing that that exercise. with you. I had an idea that you were. going to be kind of good at it. Most. people don't even get first of all they. don't have the confidence to even try. it. I was very pleased that you were. willing to try it. But I had this thing. about it because you're like very very. relatable. Like I I have a thing that I. think that you would be a good. negotiator. I think that you have at. your core the ability to be a really. good negotiator. I thought about this. movie where that they call you Mr. Relatable the primary where like you you.

it was not even really you. It's like a. person who was like a younger you that. was like a like a person who was a. stand-up comedy and a guy goes to the. show and decides he wants to 405 because. he's just done with life. But you, he. just related with you and that you. negotiate him out of doing it and the. police see you doing it and then you. your arc is that you realize that in. negotiating with people that how much it. relates to things that you've been. through in your own life. Do they have that almost sounds like a. movie that I bet somebody would not. exactly but I bet yeah a negotiator and.

they're h and it's they're really. channeling things that are going on in. their own lives or what they It happens. to us. It happens. It 100% happens to. us. But most of us don't have the. natural. relatability that you have. Like I. mean, no, I don't have any need to blow. smoke, right? Like I really like you. I. think you're dope. But I'm just saying, but your relatability is level is off. the meter with all races of people, with. all genders of people. I don't know if.

you relate it to yourself as well as you. relate to other people, which might be. an interesting element for you. That. might be even part of the element of Mr. Relatable, the primary. But there's. something there. And I think that, you. know, you could definitely be a. negotiator. The primary. The primary. That's a cool name for something. The. primary. There you go, man. Imagine. that. You know, you talk the guy out, someone gets it on video that you did it. and the police are reaching out to you. to handle these highlevel negotiations. and you're trying to make your career. work. You could do it, man. Thanks, man. That's some nice thoughts. And just so. so, so that's a nice thing you can do if.

you're talking with a woman. pay. attention and share stuff that they said. back to them to create comfortability. Yeah. Because a lot of times as guys, we. don't necessarily listen like sometimes. the No, in the beginning, especially. you're just doing your best. It's like. you're trying to survive. It's almost. like you're treading water. It's like I. know I'm swimming, but I'm really just, you know, trying to stay alive at this. moment. And open-ended questions, you. know, this is an excellent open-ended. question. And how did that make you. feel? That's an excellent question. And be. sincere about it. Like this the stuff.

that I'm selling is not I'm not trying. to sell it. This is the stuff that I'm. sharing that really matters. Asking. like, "How did that make you feel?" Like. if the girl that you go on a date with, she's like, "Oh my goodness, it took me. forever to get here." The Uber driver. kept looking at me. It looked like my. boob was popping up. I get it. How But. how did that make you feel? Yeah. How do. you feel about it? Like, I'm okay with. it. Actually, just kind of a tactic. Cuz. sometimes you need somebody to put you. you get all soiled. You need somebody to. put you back in the pot, you know? Like. sometimes I'll be frantic and but. everything's fine. You like Yeah, everything's fine. It's like [ __ ] you. know, I'll get caught down. you know,

I'll get caught going upstream when I. really don't need to, you know. Um, what. else was I thinking about? Oh, there's. that famous case in Las Vegas of the. shooter, right? In the Yeah. You know, there's a lot of conspiracy theories. about that. Was that a real thing? Oh, yeah. It was real. I know some some of. the cops that enter and one of my cop. buddies got pulled a guy off the street. and drove him to the hospital and. dropped him off. I mean, one of my. closest cop buddies did that and I. actually got a recording of him telling. me about that cuz I used it in a.

training class that I had. But that. situation that 100% happened. Wow. Yeah. That that was real. Yeah. That's. unbelievable, huh? Yeah, that was that. was wow, man. And just to show you, you. know, I wear this thing. It says momento. morti, which means you remember you will. die because you never know when you're. going to die. Can happen at any time, man. And that's this messed up thing. about cop work is that it's always at. either the forefront or the back of your. mind that you know you think about it. like when I know what's crazy when the. driver picked me up today in the black. vehicle and this is cops think like. this. I was like is this really this guy.

not setting me up right? This is legit. like you know you have this like a. paranoia thing that goes around in your. mind about like if a person walks into a. restaurant we always sit with our back. to the door. It becomes uncomfortable. sometimes. Yeah. Or not with our back to. the door facing the door. So, but yeah, because I guess you develop it's not. really a paranoia as much as it is a um. preservation really. It is. self-preservation because seeing death. on on those levels, it's a trip. Um does. doing uh police work, sergeant work, um.

a negotiation um work, does it wear down. your compassion or does it build it over. time, do you think? Oh, that's such a. good question. For me in the in the. immediate you you you kind of build up. this um this thick skin where you don't. like for me I don't showing emotion is. still a challenge for me in life. I get. emotional and you sometimes will see. that there'll be tears that come well up.

in my eye but I don't want to let them. fall down. Oh yeah. So it's it's tough. But to answer your question, I think. that in the while you're doing it thick. skin, as you get older, you become more. like that, you know, I I really feel. what you're going through. You know, I. wish that I could, and I don't like to. say I wish there's a way that I could. help you. My goal is to figure out how I. can do that. My one of my lieutenants, I. think I you guys have the audio on this. One of my lieutenants um 405 and uh.

there's audio of it. Um, this is. horrific horrific story. Las Vegas cop. shot wife and 5-year-old son before. taking his own before unaliving himself. Okay. Yes. He uh so this guy was my my. my lieutenant and uh you can play the. audio if you want and this kind he tells. everything right here. I'll give you a. little bit background afterwards. Okay. 911. What's the address of your. emergency? Hi. And what's the problem? Tell me exactly what happened. My name. is Hans Walters. Uh, I work for Las.

Vegas Metropolana Police. Department. Uh, I just shot and killed. my son Max and my wife Michelle and I. killed her because she's in such chronic. pain from her neck and back and on more. medicines and she's not going to. survive. And we were both. seeing a therapist and a psychologist in. Boulder City. His name is and.

uh I feel terrible for doing it. Okay. And you don't have a voice out. Please don't please don't interrupt me, please. Okay. I I've also set the house. on fire and if the fire department comes. to my house because there's a fire. hydrant right in front of my house, uh. I'm going to open fire on them. So, I. have to wait till the house is burning. and then I'm going to shoot myself. Okay. So, okay. I don't I don't ask me. any questions. This is This is real.

This isn't a joke. The fire alarms in. the background is because I set the. garage and the bedroom on fire. My. wife's in the bedroom. I shot her in the. head. My son, unfortunately, is in the. living room watching Oswald and I shot. him in the head, too. And. uh Oh, forgive me for my sins. Please. don't call back. Thank you. Oh my god. So, uh, Hans was, uh, my lieutenant and, uh, really for a period of time. Yeah. He was my lieutenant for a period of. time. And, uh, he was one of the most.

softspoken, polite. Every time he would. talk to you, he would say, "Please and. thank. you." Total family man. Not wasn't a go. out after work drinker type guy. Everything in the time that I knew him. was about his wife and his son Max. I. remember there was a time, that's him. right there, and that's his wife. She. was a cop at one time and I remember. there was it when when he was my. lieutenant, he would go take time off to. go take care of her and he would put me.

as to to to take care of the lieutenant. paperwork and he was always just very. please and thank you and he was just. just I mean it's so weird for me to be. able to say that one of the most kind. softspoken people to me and to the other. people that he interacted with which was. so wild. So his wife had some. significant medical challenges. And when. I was younger, as I said before, I. didn't understand how suffering from. pain can be so debilitating for a.

person. Now, this is what's really. interesting in this situation. Hans. walked outside after he shot his wife. and his son, and he didn't get shot. The police. didn't shoot him. And I believe that he. wanted it to be aside by cop and that's. the only reason I can me you know muster. as to why he would walk outside but they. didn't shoot him and he went inside and. then he he. 405d. What's interesting is I told you. as I listen to the conversation I listen.

to the language. What he says is he says. please forgive. me. What would a person normally say? Would you just say please forgive me or. would you say God forgive me? But in my. mind, I feel like potentially. Why you. Theo, you're a negotiator now. Why did. he nice use the word God? Um, because he'd done some things that. were bad that what God wouldn't forgive. him for. There you go, brother. See, you. get this stuff, man. You really get this. stuff. And that's why that word did not.

come out of his mouth. What a horrific. situation. But let me tell you. something, man. There are some people. under those circumstances who don't want. anyone else to raise their kid. [Music]. Can I speak to why he did that? I don't. know. But I can tell you that I do have. experience with a person who's something. like that. And I sent you, there's no. audio of this, but I did send a a file. of this case, Timothy Blackburn. I was a. negotiator on the team at this time. And. my team got the call out from Blackburn.

I did not negotiate on an FBI agent who. who. was connected with Blackburn, negotiated. Quick story what Blackburn. did. Blackburn committed a robbery of a. vault in Vegas. A million plus dollars. Wow. A million plus dollars he got away. with. But he got caught. So Blackburn, that's Blackburn right there. Oh, he's. Asian. Yeah. Blackburn got caught. Yeah. Blackburn got What you What do you. think? What' you think he was? Blackburn. Yeah. Probably white or. black. Yeah. Well, he So he got So he.

got caught. He's in the North Las Vegas, one of the North Las Vegas detention, whatever, because it was a federal. crime. And um his wife breaks him out of. the jail. He escapes. She put a a. screwdriver in her hair. They un he. escapes. Dude, I love them. There's a. manhunt for them. Okay. It was like the. one of the biggest manh hunts in Vegas. And they kept telling us that we're. going to get we're going to catch him at. something. We're going to catch him. There's a a reward. They find him. barricaded in one of those daily suite. hotels. Okay, this story is trippy. He.

doesn't want to talk to anyone on our my. negotiation team. He wants to talk to. the FBI agent who arrested him. this FBI. agent said when Blackburn said, "How am. I looking at much time?" He said, "Your. probation officer hasn't been born. yet." And um so so Blackburn is in there. and they're talking, you know, the the. the the FBI agent can, you know, hear. the kids in the background. And. Blackburn is like he was with his. family, you know, he was he was a a. family guy. So SWAT is set up on the.

house and they're they're figuring out, you know, whether or to breach. You. know, time is on our side. But here's. what happens. A cop I know is on the. outer perimeter patrol officer. He's got. his shotgun. He's moving from one. position to the other. Slinging his. shotgun. His shotgun goes off. Blackburn. thinks that SWAT is making an entry. They weren't. It was just the guy had an. a negligent discharge. Blackburn then.

sumearily shoots his wife, kid, and. himself. SWAT goes in just as he's doing. that and shoot Blackburn as he's fallen. to the ground. And even in the testimony. was that the SWAT officer says, you. know, I shot a dead man cuz he killed. him cuz Blackburn was saying stuff like, I don't want to visit my kid through a. plexiglass. and he was of the mindset. that no one else is going to raise my. kid or be with my woman and knowing that. there are people like that. And that is. a very I have to walk very carefully.

when I say these things because this is. very sensitive information. I'm only. speaking from my perspective and the. information that I have in hopes that it. could help someone else in the future. that if you find yourself in a. situation, God forbid, where there's a. degree of you feel like you can't go on. without a person, you can. And everyone. has a sanctity life and should be able. to go on. It's just, in my opinion, not. the way to go. Yeah. It's I mean it's.

crazy to think of all the little pieces. of. um all the little avenues of things you. would never think need to be information. or that you would glean from. u an officer, a sergeant, a detective, a. hostage negotiator. But the simple fact. that you're saying based on my. information, if you are unaliving. yourself, you shouldn't unalive other. people with you because it's not that's.

not the way to go. It's. just I don't even know who else even. Yeah. I mean, that's an easy thing just. to say, but you're saying it based on. information that you've seen, you know. Yeah. Um Yeah. I think we tal Man, thank. you so much today, uh Chris, for. joining, man. I think a lot it's like. it's just interesting. you start to get. even more of a scope of. like just. what fills up the minds and the. histories and the timelines of um of.

officers of people that are there to. serve, you know, people that are there. to protect and how do they manage all. that? Uh cut people slack, too. Cut. people slack when you're driving on the. road, when you're in a restaurant, you. know, cut people slack. You could just. really avoid so much stuff by taking a. deep breath and and and making a. different decision and don't and and and. not bullying people, man. You know, all. of that stuff can lead to a person doing. some bull crap like, you know, some of. the stuff that we see when people. barricade and want to 405 them, you.

know. Yeah. Cuz once somebody goes over. the edge, they're over the edge. They're. over the edge at that point. You know, the original plateau doesn't matter to. them anymore. You know, the original. gradient of things doesn't matter. You. know, when I drive, I I carry something. in my center console that will address a. road rage situation, and it's not what. you think. I carry a clown nose, a a red. clown nose, and if I see a person. driving crazy, I really I really do this. deal. I really do this. I put the clown.

nose on myself, and my only rule is I. cannot take the clown nose off because I. know that I'm not going to yell and. scream at a person while I have the. clown nose on. And if I take the clown. nose off, I'm being a clown. You will. not believe how many times that has. stopped me from acting like an idiot. And it's just such a stupid basic simple. way to avoid road rage. Because I tell. you the thing that will get the average. citizen in trouble, two things. One is a. domestic violence situation. And the. number two thing is something that they. do driving, drinking, or acting like an. idiot in a road rage. Those are the two.

things. Those are number those are the. top two. Say them one more time. So. domestic get into a situation cuz you. know domestic is brother to brother. I've been to so many calls. One time I. went to a call a brother got out of the. milit he's on leave from the military. they got drunk they got into a fight. that's domestic you know you it's a. mandatory arrest so that's an average. citizen and you know you lose your right. to carry a firearm then wow and it's a. misdemeanor and then the other thing is. some kind of driving road rage battery. situation that a person gets to or. drinking and driving. Those are the top.

top. So you called three because if you. want to say drinking and driving or road. raging and getting into a situation. where you end up, you know, getting into. a a fight with someone. Those three. things are the civilian the civilian. things that happen all the time. If you. can control those things plummet, odds. are you going to be super safe? Yes, man. Christopher Curtis, thanks so much. for hanging out, dude. I got to take my. mom to eat or I would chat a little. more. No, I'm down, brother. I mean, I. really appreciate it. It was an awesome. experience. Great hotel. Your team is. phenomenal, brother. You got a really.

cool team, man. Oh, thank you, dude. Yeah, I feel really lucky, you know? I. think we did a good job today of like um. kind of learning about some stuff and. also some of it is just like getting. into the psyche of seeing what it's like. to go through the minds of someone who's. gone through your life and then yeah, how do you best try to manage it? And. then what can we even expect out of. people, you know, who aren't able to. manage their their emotions and. mental the fatigue? Where's them, you. know, and they're not able to manage it, but they're still required to be at.

work, you know? It's like it's a huge. asking. It's a huge [ __ ] undertaking. It is. But this is good stuff, and I. hope that it helps officers and. civilians alike. Yeah. Well, it's just. great to have this conversation, man. And we learn more as we go. Um, Christopher Curtis, thank you so much, dude. And yeah, I appreciate I love that. hat, dude. Mote. papa in lucha. Now I'm just floating on the breeze and. I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I.

must be corner. stone. Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this piece of mind I found. I. can feel it in my bones. But it's going to take.