Psych Med Withdrawal Expert Laura Delano | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #678

Today's guest is an author and founder. of the Inner Compass Initiative. She. wrote Unshrunk, a story of psychiatric. treatment resistance. Uh we talk about. um mental health, getting on to. medicines, and then how to get off of. them if you want to or need to. Uh I had. a fascinating conversation and I'm. thankful for her time. Today's guest is. Miss Laura Delano.

And I will find a song I've been. singing. >> Uh Laura Delano. >> Yep. Am. >> I saying that correctly? >> Yep. >> Excellent. >> Delano. Yep. >> Thank you for joining us today. Uh you. wrote a book called Unshrunk, a story of. psychiatric treatment resistance. Uh I. want to talk about that today. Um, I. want to talk about my own journey with. antid-depressants and uh with trying to.

get off of the medications um and what. that's been like for me or I want to. discuss that with you. Um, I also want. to iterate that uh one in six Americans. right now are taking mental health uh. drugs. >> Yep. >> And that's even higher amongst college. students. And I want to talk about um. how to properly get off medication, what. that's like for people in that journey. Uh but first I want to hear about your. story. Uh you've had kind of a like so. far lifelong journey with uh mental.

health and medication. Is that fair to. say? >> Yeah. Going back to childhood. >> Okay. And is it okay if we start there. just so our listeners are like kind of. clued in on uh on how how you got here? >> Sure. Yeah. So so I grew up in. Connecticut in a in an affluent town. I. was in a born to a family who had a lot. of resources. this, you know, private. school, all my material needs met. Like. on paper, I just had this really um. wonderful life and and I was always. quote unquote good at school. Like I.

could just sit down and do wrote tasks. like well, it never bothered me or I. never got bored with it. And so I just I. kind of was one of these girls who had. had it all together. Good student. I was. a good athlete. >> What sport did you play? Um, well, squash was my main sport through. college. But, you know, when I was. younger, like tennis, field hockey, basically all the like textbook. prepster. >> Oh, rich sports. >> Waspy. >> Yeah. Like, picture the most.

stereotypical New England Waspy. Prepster. And like that's right here. Literally down to like all whites on the. tennis court. That's me. >> Um, so yeah, so I just like had it all. together. And then when I was 13, you. know, there I was. because I was. president of the middle school. I had. straight A's. I was a nationally ranked. squash player. I had it all together. And I was looking in the mirror one. night, brushing my teeth, and I just. started looking deeper and deeper into. my eyes. And then I just slowly. everything around me started to go.

black. And I left space and time, and I. was just like floating in like what felt. like outer space, looking at this girl. in the mirror, and I was like, who is. she? Who is she? Who is she? And then I. realized this is a stranger. And I when. I came to I was like some terrified by. this out-of- body experience. I didn't. know what to make of it. And the only. conclusion I could draw was like I must. not have a real self. I must be a robot. programmed to perform well. But like who.

am I? What do I care about? What really. matters to me? And I realized I didn't. know the answer. And I I I felt. immediately like my whole life had. changed. And I was just aware suddenly. that I was imprisoned by these adults. around me and and I just freaked out and. didn't know what to do. Knew I couldn't. tell anyone about this experience. And. so I just pretended it hadn't happened. and I just tried to like continue on. being the good girl. But that, you know, compartmentalization like wasn't.

sustainable. And so I eventually began. spinning out. I started cutting myself. I was like fantasizing about death. I. started acting out at home like hitting. my mom and screaming and cursing and my. parents were just like what has. happened? Did you think you were. realizing something like. >> So I'm I love that you're asking that. because in retrospect I'm like holy cow. I was having an ego death like a per. what could have been this profoundly. liberating like I'm so much more than. the self you know like it could have. gone that way but I think because like I. grew up in this in this particular.

environment like we no one was reading. philosophy and like into psychedelics. there I had no frame of reference to. head that way. So instead, I concluded I. don't have a real self. Um, and so I. just I couldn't bear that what felt like. my reality for very long. And I did end. up like really spinning out at home. At. I kept everything together outside of. the home, but at home I would fall. apart. And my poor parents just didn't. know what to do. They were terrified.

They were exhausted. And so they. eventually, you know, realized like we. need to take her to a professional. And. this was in the mid '9s. Um, I was born. in ' 83, so I'm an elder millennial. So. then in the mid '9s, not the whole. mental health thing wasn't a part of the. cultural zeitgeist in the way that it is. now, especially for for young people. So. it was this very private thing. We. weren't meant to talk about it, you. know, that I was going to this. therapist. >> Oh, yeah. It was such taboo then. >> Yeah. And and you know, my parents, you. know, God bless them, like because they.

didn't see anyone else having problems. around them. and they're like, "Oh my. gosh, we're the only people in our town. who has a daughter who's going through. this." Of course, in retrospect, I'm. like, "We were all pretty messed up in. this intense town that we were all in.". But it felt. >> It sounds like kind of a microcosm over. there. >> Yeah, it was a it was a very like. Steepford Wives kind of place for sure. >> Um, and so they sent me to a therapist. The therapist sent me to a psychiatrist. I was 14 by that time. And in one hour, the psychiatrist told me, you know, all.

this anger and these outbursts and this. irritability you're having, these are. symptoms of mania and the fact that. you're cut yourself and you're, you. know, depressed. These are symptoms of. depression. You have a lifelong brain. illness called bipolar disorder, but. don't worry, there are medications you. can take. You can live a good life. She'd seen me for one hour. I was 14. years old. and she put me on depicode. and Prozac. >> How do they diagnose that? Just so I. know. >> Good question. It's literally through.

just observation. So, you just describe. how you're feeling, you describe what. you're doing, and then the psychiatrist. and their subjective opinion, you know, runs through the kind of checklist that. they've been trained to go through, you. know, with the DSM, the diagnostic and. statistical manual. So it's like oh five. out of seven is this four you know and. >> said the DS what is it what is. >> the diagnostic and statistical manual of. mental disorders it's copyrighted by the. American Psychiatric Association.

there's a lot of industry influence. behind it um you know they get a lot of. funding from drug companies and it's. literally it's called like the bible of. psychiatry and it's what um you know. these diagnoses from the diagnoses from. the DSM are what open doors for people. to get treatment you know for billing. it's it's a very powerful book but it's. completely subjective like this is not a. scientific text it's literally the. opinions of psychiatrists like that's.

what these diagnoses were made on the. basis of. >> does that make it somewhat scientific. though that that it's at least psych. it's not like oh just a random person. guessing. >> yeah well for the DSM to be scientific. it would need to be both reliable and. valid so basically the the categories. themselves would need to be um real. meaningful like measurable categories. and. um the the same person would need to be. getting the same diagnosis from multiple.

clinicians. Like if if those two factors. were in place, like you could say that. this was a scientifically valid and. reliable text, but it's not. They don't. Like if you look at, you know, clinicians will give all kinds of. different diagnoses to the same person. um you know bipolar disorder as an. example like there's no measurable. pathology in your brain. There's no. abnormal blood tests. There's no it's. just based purely on observation.

>> Were there like any like biological. tests or medical tests that they ran to. to determine if you had bipolar. disorder? >> And there aren't any for any of these. diagnoses? >> No, there weren't. No. >> Wow. >> To this day, there aren't. Even for. something like schizophrenia, like none. of these diagnoses have any valid. uh replicable, you know, like there's nothing there. there's no test of any kind, medical. test of any kind. >> Yeah. It says right here, bipolar.

disorder cannot be measured with a. single physical test like a blood test. or an MRI. Instead, doctors and mental. health professionals measure and. diagnose it through a comprehensive. clinical evaluation. And you're saying. after only one hour, they had determined. this. >> Yeah. And a lot of people get a. diagnosis in 15 minutes. And and and and. what's amazing about it is that because. we have all come to believe in these. diagnoses as these lifelong incurable. things, like you can manage them, but. once you have this diagnosis, you have. it forever. Like if you pause and think.

about that for a minute, like to tell a. 14-year-old girl who you just met an. hour ago, you have a lifelong incurable. disease in your brain. Like it's a pretty potent thing to say. to someone. >> Yeah. Especially at 14. She's got enough. going on. >> Ser and and it isn't ad I mean in. retrospect I see like adolescence is. literally when we we have a crisis of. self. Like who the [ __ ] am I? Like how. do I fit into this world? Like how do I. socialize? What do I care about? >> Yeah. What do I listen to? Who am I? You. know, how do I dress? Like how do I find.

out what's going on inside of me? All of. that stuff. >> Yeah. And I think because the crisis I. was going through was this deep. existential spiritual crisis of self, I. was especially susceptible to being told. who I was. >> because I was and I think a lot of us. are. I don't know if you if if you. relate to this too, but when I first. >> when I first got the bipolar diagnosis, I rejected it as that 14-year-old girl. Like I knew intuitively this is makes no. sense. like I'm having a healthy.

response to this like really intense. social environment I'm in. But a few. years later cuz because I was put on. those meds but Depicote and Prozac so a. so-called mood stabilizer depicote's. actually an anti-convulsant that's not. even to this day approved for. psychiatric use in kids but I was put on. it back then and it's a very widely. prescribed um psych med. And then Prozac at the time was not. approved for use in kids. Uh, so I just. put right on it and for the following.

years I managed to like not really take. them regularly. I went away to boarding. school. I kind of ran away from I tried. to run away from what that psychiatrist. told me. Um, but by 18. I, you know, was still playing the game, the performance game, and I'd gotten. into Harvard and I was going to play. squash at Harvard. Like literally you. it's almost like cringeworthy like how. just this you know taip a perfectionist. New England girl like I just was like I. was so trapped in this like I knew it.

was all [ __ ] but I didn't know how. to get out. And so there I was at. Harvard and hoping like by then maybe. I'd have figured it all out and I'd be. okay. And of course I wasn't. And so it. was at that point that I was just so. desperate for relief because I was like. doing tons of coke and ecstasy and I. wasn't sleeping and I was like so spun. out freshman fall of college. I was a. total mess and I was like what is wrong. with me? Like I can't I want to die. I. can't live this way anymore.

>> So something was wrong. >> Oh yeah. I mean I was really struggling. Like this wasn't like oh she was just. having a little bump in the I was like. completely a mess. And were you still. taking the medicines, the depaic code. and the. >> No, when I spun out that first fall of. college, I was not on any meds. Okay. >> Um but I was definitely like drinking a. lot, doing a lot of drugs, just overall. like not taking care of myself. >> What things were showing up in your life. that were like, okay, now this is things. are getting too too rough. I mean, >> um I mean, I think a lot of it was just.

I wasn't sleeping. Um I was really. reckless in my behaviors. like, you. know, I'd be like super cod up and I'd. like climb to the top of a building and. I'd be like stuck on a roof and I'd be. like, "What?" And it'd be 3:00 in the. morning, you know, like just these. ridiculous things. And I'd hang out, you. know, with like the the bums in the. square where, you know, in in Harvard. Square and and like smoke with them and. just I I just like wasn't I felt so far.

away from my peers. Um, and I was I. couldn't stop thinking about dying. Like. I I just couldn't see a way through it. I just was so overwhelmed by this like. deep sense that I was this fraud. >> Um, who would never fit in to the world. around her and my mind wouldn't shut off. and you know just paranoid thoughts like. everyone hates you. They're just. pretending to like you like you're a. piece of [ __ ] You just. >> Sounds like a nightmare.

>> Yeah. And you'll get a kick out of this. My breaking point was I came out as a. debutant the w the winter of my first. year at Harvard and I was like in. wedding dress on stage at the Waldorf. Histori in New York City and you know. the whole thing is so absurd like the. tradition of it is like. >> it's tradition. >> Yeah. But it's like a meat market. Like. historically it was like your daughter. is now ready to be, you know, married. off or whatever. And you know, you have. to curtsy and do his like wild spins.

>> Oh yeah. I'll go to like sometimes. they'll have those in the south. They've. had him over the years. Um and. >> have you been to them? >> I've been to in Natchas, Mississippi. My. little nephew was in one for a bit. And. so I'd go over there and watch him. >> Was he like an escort of one of the. girls? >> Yeah. He was like he had a sword or. whatever. So. >> Oh, you had swords down there? Oh, we. didn't have swords. That's cool. >> We They wield weapons at the ones in the. south, so it gets a little bit. different. >> Of course you did. I love it. >> Um, okay. So, you're a debut. You have. all this going on on the outside looks. one way, but you feel a total different. way on the inside.

>> Like, that was the icing on the cake. Like, I'm literally on a stage doing. curtsies. Like, what? This is a. practical joke. Like, is this how is. this my life? And like, how do I get out. of it? So, I felt like the only way out. >> So, it sounds like you had some. psychosis going on. I probably could. have been given a psycho a diagnosis of. like psychotic disorder not otherwise. specified or something. I mean I. definitely had especially when I wasn't. sleeping. I would have these very kind. of expansive thoughts where I was like. deconstructing reality and you know. language is a social construction. So.

like the words I'm using to think these. thoughts it's all. >> I would just get totally swept up in all. the postmodern stuff like I just got all. swept up in that. And so I just that. winter of as an 18-year-old, I was just. desperate for help. And to go back to. this whole, you know, DSM diagnosis. thing, that desperation drove me to just. want to of my own valition go back to. psychiatry and just be like, tell me. what is wrong with me. I need your help. I need to understand why I feel this way.

and I need relief. And I and I just I. always try to like pause on that. whenever I'm talking about my story. because there's I don't know if you felt. the same when you were first diagnosed. with whatever your diagnosis is. I can't. wait to dive in more into it. But I felt. such relief like I'm not a bad person. I'm not a [ __ ] I'm not lazy. I'm. sick. And now I have a treatment that's. gonna help me get better. Like. hallelujah. Like that's how it felt. >> Oh yeah. I um Yeah. I can relate to.

being like, "Okay, something is going to. come and help me. Finally, there's help. is on the way." Y, I can certainly. relate to that. And we'll talk about. some of my experience after after a. little bit, but um I want to hear more. Okay, so you get this diagnosis and this. feels helpful. >> It feels so helpful. I feel such relief, like immediate relief, like you know, I. don't have to fight anymore. I don't. have to keep desperately searching for. answers and to figure myself out. Like. this doctor knows what's wrong with me. and he has the solution. and like I'm.

good to go. And so of of course the kind. of perfectionist type A person that I. was, I immediately applied that to being. a patient. So I was just like so. diligent about going to therapy and. tracking my how I was feeling and. reporting symptoms. And I just it became. very quickly like the void of of meaning. and purpose that my life had previously. held was filled with a new purpose like. treatment. like you're a patient and. your purpose is to get treatment and so.

I you know was put back on meds and then. you know quickly. two became three and you know I would be. going in every week sometimes twice a. week to do therapy. I was going to MLAN. hospital which is like a 20-minute bus. ride from from Harvard and it's like one. of the oldest you know most established. institutions in the country. It's where. Sylvia Pla went. Oh, I can imagine it's. prestigious if it's there because the. best doctors are right next door. >> Exactly. And so I think that's with my.

my background coming from, you know, a. family with socioeconomic means, I. always had like the best of the best. care and which is an important. part of my story that we'll we'll come. back to. Um, so yeah, I just had this. new sense of purpose and momentum and I. was like, you know, we're going to. figure this out together and my. psychiatrist and me. But with the, you. know, with the passage of time, inevitably, you know, I'd like not like. I'd be on some med and then I'd have,

you know, sleep problems or like panicky. feelings and then I'd get on another med. or they'd up the dose or they'd switch. and just before I knew it, I was on a. handful of meds. But at the time, this. felt like a really good thing because. progress. Yeah. Because like more meds. is better. Like the more they're caring. for me and the more they're giving me. like the better it's going to be. Like. just and so yeah. >> Well, yeah. If you're if you're bleeding.

profusely, you would think that having. more bandages would be helpful to. >> That's such a good analogy. This is. exactly it. And and what was really. this, you know, what was insidious about. that too and and now if you look at our. culture of like how girls and young. women, you know, in the this kind of. like therapeuticized culture that we're. in, like at the time, what started to. happen for me is I began to feel like. the more meds I was on, like the more. special I was and like the more people.

would understand how much pain I was in, >> like the debuton of like Daza Pam or My. gosh. Yes. I love that. Totally. I'm up. on this stage. Look at me. I'm so sick. I have my baggie of five pill bottles. and now I don't only have bipolar. disorder. I also have social anxiety. disorder and eating disorder that. eventually came. >> Elizabeth Taylor. Yes. >> Like I am so important. I mean, and. that's I think now you're seeing with.

because this was again back in the mid. late 90s, early 2000s. Now it's like. this is how girls and young women grow. up finding a sense of self and belonging. and purpose and meaning like especially. on TikTok like. >> oh it's like a character now. >> Yes, totally. Here's my list of. diagnoses. Here's my list of meds. It's. like oh now I know how to slot in and. where I belong and who my tribe is. And. so that was really just taken off back. in like the early 2000s. And I I it was. very much a part of my kind of my.

journey through my my teens and 20s with. all with all this stuff was like how. much of a an identity it gave me. Yeah. >> Yeah. You were like Amelia Heheart out. there. You were just out there flying. through. >> through the psych warts. >> and landing who knows where. They still. haven't found her. >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And so, of course, like as I'm this good patient doing. everything my doctor's telling me, reporting my symptoms, you know, we're. up up in the meds, this that, my life. isn't actually getting better. It's.

actually falling more and more apart. And I did manage to graduate college, but by the time I did, I had to take a. year off. I'd been hospitalized. I was. like super suicidal. But because this like slow creep of meds. and you know this like prescription. cascade is the term that a lot of people. use. It was just this like slow. unfolding of it. I didn't even. really realize it was happening and just. because my journey with psychiatry.

started when I was a kid. Like I had no. reference point. I had no like baseline. sense of who I was as a person prior to. meds because of course like. >> you were just developing. >> Yeah. And like I was having an identity. crisis to begin with that got me on all. of it. And so through my 20s I just like. kept falling more and more apart and I. like gained you know literally like 70. lbs over over but by by the time I was. in my mid20s. >> and was that attributed to medication. you think? >> Well the for I mean certainly the.

antisycchotics that I was eventually on. I mean those are well documented to. cause all kind of kinds of metabolic. issues. Um, and you know, tons of people on. long-term antisycchotics end up getting. diabetes, but I think what the meds also. did is they, and I didn't realize this. at the time, but they disconnected me. from my body's like signals. So, your. >> instincts. >> Yeah. And I just, I didn't, Am I hungry. right now? Am I satiated? Like, I don't. even know, but like this tastes good and. I'm kind of numbed out, so I'm going to.

eat more of it. So, I was definitely. binge eating. It wasn't like the weight. just came on and I wasn't changing, you. know, what I was eating. But. >> well, your sensory system gets kind of. hijacked in a lot of ways, I find, by. medication. >> Yeah. >> You know, for years I couldn't tell. sometimes how I felt about things, which. is one of the main reasons I've tried to. get off so many times is because I want. to know how I feel like if I'm going to. choose like, you know, if I'm going to. get married or like, you know, I don't. want to, you know, partner with my wife. and then one day I get off meds and I'm.

like this, I don't even like this. You. know, it's like you get scared for for. me, I get scared of the choices I'm. going to make cuz I don't know if. they're fully mine. >> Yeah. Oh my god. I feel I cry all the. time, by the way. So, if I get tearary, you know, I I had a feeling I would. because I've heard you speak about that. >> Yeah. I can't cry anymore on the. internet or it's going to I'm somebody's. going to come and get me. So, I have to. take it easy. But, um I'm here for you. if you do. It's I mean to me crying is. such an essential like I actually think. that when I authentically feel this like.

urge to cry I'm like do it sister. I. like say it to myself because people are. so uncomfortable with crying and as as. you just said like people freak the [ __ ]. out and they're like what I can't. compute what is happening and sometimes. I'll be like giving a talk to a big room. of you know psychiatrists and people and. if I feel myself getting tearary I'm. like oh yeah let it rip because I know. it's going to make them like so. uncomfortable and that's part of our. problem. Like that is part of why we're. in this crisis as a society is that we. are so disconnected from like what it.

means to be human, which is you emote. and you cry sometimes. >> Yeah. Oh, I was crying this morning at a. Bible study, you know? >> Well, how you were moved moved to tears. or was it was it like was it Yeah. What. was. >> I people were sharing different people. sharing different stuff or me talking. about something just a mix of things, you know? And sometimes it like it's not. really crying. Sometimes it's sweat. I. feel like from the heavy [ __ ] I got in. here. It's like I'm, you know what I'm. saying? Like I'm holding up some heavy.

[ __ ] in here. And some you got to sweat. out of your eyes. Oh yeah. >> You know, it's like this isn't tears. This is sweat from like just me like. just from like how heavy some of this. [ __ ] is sometimes. And I'm not even. complaining about it. Like sometimes. it's like yes, part of it is like this. feeling that you have to look away if. you're tearing up or something. It's. like I don't know how some of that. became such a shame thing, you know. Now, if you're just cry being a crybaby. about something, that's kind of. different. But I think if you're just. like feeling something, you know, that.

seems pretty normal to me. Yeah. >> You know, and sometimes feelings are. heavy and so your eyes got to sweat. >> Oh my gosh, that's poetry. And I I I. mean it gets right to the heart of. what I think the the real crisis is that. we're in here as a as a culture, which. is we have forgotten what it means to be. alive. And and I think it's a lot of. this has been fueled by the mental. health industry, but it's more broadly. just like consumer culture where we're.

just bombarded all the time with do you. feel uncomfortable like buy this, eat. this, do this, you know, it's just we've. been so inculcated into thinking that. discomfort and pain is a problem to fix. and and we don't even realize that it's. happened to us. Yes. And and then when. you have these like I do think crying is. almost like a a political it's like a. it's like political activism it feels to. me because. when it it is such a powerful experience. to feel a room of people like.

energetically unsettled. when I'm crying with them because they. they also feel me in my power like I am. I am crying and like incredibly centered. in myself and integrated and they're. almost like I don't understand this. I. don't understand. And I think more of us who are in touch. with tears, this the sweat, the sweat of. grief and rage and all of it. >> Yeah. Confusion.

>> Totally. Oh. And alienation and. loneliness and. >> dude, I'm If I saw my brain somewhere on. the side of the road, it would be. sitting there. It would probably be. smoking. I'm going to be honest with. you. It wouldn't be It wouldn't chain. smoke, but it would be having one. >> and it would be like slumped over. >> Oh, no. I it would be still hopeful. >> Okay. >> But it would be I think and it would. probably be eaten some peanuts or. something. It would have a little pocket. full of peanuts. >> No seed oils on the peanuts, I hope. >> No. No, not at all. These are ones that. he just picked out of a few. >> dry roasted. >> They naturally grew dry roasted. Those. ones. Gods. God's nuts. And then God's.

nuts. >> And then he might be tearing up a. little. That's fair. >> That makes me tear up to think about. your little brain on the side of the. road. >> Hey, look. He's hitchhiking. He's headed. somewhere. Oh, and he is going to get. picked up by a really cute old man in a. pickup truck who's like, "I'm going 20. miles south." And he says, "Your brain's. going to say, "That's my direction. Get. on in, kid.". >> That's romantic. I like that a little. bit. >> Oh my gosh. Here I am with the tears in. my eyes. But but I think, you know, I. just because I was put on meds as a as a.

as a teenager. And so many people are. right now, like you said at at the at. the start, 30% of college kids have been. on psych meds. We have 8% of two 8.2% of. kids collectively on some kind of psych. med. >> That's unbelievable when you think about. it. >> It's wild. It's it's four there four. million kids on psych meds and this is. like age five and up like tiny children. >> Have we gotten lazy in how we try to.

solve psychiatric uh problems? I I think. I wouldn't call it our laziness as much. as I would say that modern society like. modern industrialized. consumer society this like overly. individualistic. you know it's you on your own you're. meant to succeed and perform. It's the. this evolution of our modern culture. itself that has actually made it.

impossible for us to. >> to like really um deeply understand. suffering in the way that you know in. the grand scheme of human history. we used to understand it and and so I. don't think it's about laziness as much. as it is like there's been a collective. forgetting of what it means to suffer. and how to bear suffering and how to. make sense of suffering, but but the. world we live in also makes it. impossible for so many people who might.

actually want to, you know, explore what. they're going through in in a deeper. way. It makes it impossible because like. you got to pay the bills, 9 toive job, like you have mouths to feed, you have. rent to pay, >> right? We've made this society that's so. demanding. Yep. of you to do that you. don't even have time to be or to. self-reflect or to have a relationship. with yourself um or or sometimes with. other people.

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for 50% off your buildout cost. That's m. oip.com/theo. They don't f around. This was a video by James Lee the other. day and uh he investigates a lot of this. sort of thing, just what's going on in. society. Uh if you can't see this chart. at home, it's just showing that since. 1985 uh on average rent prices have gone. up 140%. Whereas income has only gone up uh it.

looks like about 38 to 40%. >> Yeah. I mean, and if what's I'm so glad. you pulled this up because this. encapsulates the whole problem here. If. if you're if you're struggling to make. ends meet and like you have there's like. a there's significant there's. significant consequences to not being. able to make ends meet. Of course, you're going to feel depressed. Of. course, you're going to feel anxious. But what happens right now, the way our.

mental health industry has unfolded is. if you go sit down in front of a. diagnosing mental health professional, you're going to be told you have an. illness in your brain that needs pills. When in fact, you're actually having a. healthy, logical, common sensical, like. natural response to what is the actually. sick situation, if you're going to use. that word, >> right? Yeah. It's it's more like that. our society is sick or that our. environment has a that our environment. has an illness that uh we then get.

diagnosed with by looking at our. society. >> Yep. Yeah. >> And feeling how we feel within that. society. And I'm not saying that some. people do not have real diagnoses. I'm. not saying that some people don't have. real issues. And I'm not denouncing. anybody that's on medication. >> Of course, >> um we're just taking a look at things. That's all we're doing here and we're. using our own journeys to kind of uh to. do that. Right. >> Of course. Yeah. I think people often. get confused when when you're critiquing. the diagnostic paradigm. People.

sometimes think you're saying that. people aren't really struggling, losing. it, going crazy, having breakdowns. And. it's actually the opposite. By by by. challenging this idea that all suffering. is just like faulty brain chemistry, you're actually validating the reality. of the suffering that pe and the madness. and the breakdowns that people are going. through because you're saying like. you're having a very real response that. may be um you know completely derailing.

your life, but it's a response. It's not. it's not pathology. That's it's not you. that you need to fix. What needs to be. fixed is the situation and the culture. And and and I'm so glad you brought up. the medication thing, too, because. people often, you know, hear me share my. story or they read my book or whatever. and they're like, "Oh, she's anti-. medication. She's shaming people who. take medication. She's telling people to. stop." Like you just said, like, this is. not about being against these. medications. I know tons of people.

who've been greatly benefited by taking. these drugs. But what what I am trying. to do in in my work is get people to. step back and and and question the the. information they've been given about the. diagnoses and about the meds and because. I believe that this is a a problem of. informed choice. We haven't been given. all the information we need. Um, and for. people to make true choices for. themselves, they need that information, which also includes information about.

not just the medications, but also. alternatives to them. Yeah. >> Like a lot of people don't even have. options, like because they can't afford. them because they're trying to pay their. crazy rent, you know, and. >> and they wish they had other options, but a lot of people don't have them. And. like I completely get why meds have. become the first line choice for so many. people because they haven't been given. anything else. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of functional. medicine options out there these days. Um, I'm not saying that those are as. good or not. I'm just starting to. experiment with some of those myself, but I know that there are functional.

medicine options out there. Um, and also. I believe that there's bigger, darker. entities at play that are happy if we. are ill there. It's easier to subjugate. What does subjugate mean? Am I using it. right? >> Yeah. To to control, to dominate, to to. control. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's easier to subjugate um if. we're a little bit passive. Yeah. If. you're chasing the carrot the whole. time, you know, it's easier. And it's. interesting because we've come across. some very like huge things that have.

happened in society recently and you. don't see a lot of um a lot of people. standing. Yes. >> You don't protest. >> You don't see much. >> You see some but I think all of us are. kind of shocked at like you know Yeah. with the Epstein files, with choices. that our government's making. When do. people, you know, when is there. something that gets us to stand up? And. has that thing inside of us that makes. us want to stand up? Has that been. compromised at some level that we.

weren't even aware? It was such a. lullabi that we've been within. >> Yeah. Well, everyone's taking their. outrage to their therapists instead of. to the streets, instead of to their. local, you know, politicians instead to. to the voting. Like, it's. >> or everybody's putting a pill in their. outrage. Oh, yeah. >> You know, that's what I want. You know, it's like sometimes it's like, yeah, I. just didn't know how how to I just like. what am I are these even some of my. feelings that I'm feeling? Like I just. didn't know. I haven't known sometimes. when I'm on medicine. And um I didn't.

know how I felt about so many things in. some ways. I didn't know what was being. compromised inside of me at times like. how I if it was affecting how I felt. about uh family, how I felt about. myself, if I could feel about myself. I. I've questioned even if. antid-depressants affect my relationship. with my higher power too. And it's all. kind of um yeah. So then when you take. on the ideas that these. antid-depressants are could be doing. that that makes that's scarier than the.

the reason why I got on them 20 years. earlier was just cuz I was getting out. of a relationship and it was like kind. of heartbreaking kind of stuff. So um. okay let's let's get back into your. story. You've gone through the Debuton. era. Um, where do you go from there? >> Yeah. Well, once I, you know, as as I. was saying, like after I had that total. collapse, like around that time, then I. went back willingly to the mental health. system and I was basically just tell me. what's wrong with me and give me. whatever you think I need to fix it. And.

so that was when I clicked into this. new, like I said, this new sense of. purpose and meaning, like this is what. my life is about, just getting treatment. so that I can finally one day feel okay. in my skin. Um, and so I really. internalized this medicalized sense of. myself, by which I mean this idea that I. had a medical problem in my brain that. had a medical solution, these. prescriptions. And that just became like. the kind of organizing principle of my.

life. Like I have a medical condition. that I'm treating and that's my number. one priority. Everything else comes. after it. And so the more kind of the. the I became this good patient and the. more treatment I sought and the more. therapy, more pills, my life is falling. more and more apart. I'm getting. physically sick, weight gain, you know, digestive issues, skin issues, my hair's. falling out, sleep problems. I'm getting. more and more dysfunctional in my social.

relationships. Just like really toxic. situations with with guys. I'm like. losing friendships cuz I just can't stay. connected and I can't feel bonded and I. don't feel I can't feel intimacy and my. creativity is falling apart. Like. everything's falling apart more and more. as I move through my 20s being the good. psychiatric patient on all these meds. that are accumulating. and you know hospitalizations start and. I'm taking myself into the hospital. I'm. just like so desperate to lock me away.

from myself because I just feel I I like. I can't live anymore. It gets to the to. those points pretty regular like that. Oh yeah, totally. So like you knowos. multiple hospitalizations and by the. time I was 25 I you know I'd managed to. graduate from college years earlier but. ever since like hadn't been able to hold. down a job had been dependent on my. family and like because I was born into. a family who could take care of me like. think thank thank goodness like they. kind of insulated me from what would.

have otherwise been I don't even know. what like a group home in like long-term. institution I don't even know what and. by age 25. There I was like totally. disabled, almost 200 lb, no friends. I'm. like constantly like achy and getting. sick all the time. I'm constantly. thinking about like how meaningless this. life is. And my psychiatrist says like, you know, unfortunately Laura, your. bipolar disorder has progressed and you.

now have treatment resistant bipolar. disorder. which was to me the most. hopeless message I could possibly. receive because I had literally spent. all of those years leading up to it. focused on treatment cuz I believed it. would one day help me and I'd been told. like you have this brain disease like. this is the only thing you that's really. going to help you and now you're telling. me it's not going to [ __ ] help me. like what and it was at that point that. I that I overdosed like I I you know it. was not it it it was I'd been suicidal.

for years but But in many ways, thinking. about. myself, like similar to booze when I was. a total booze bag, thinking about. killing myself ironically kept me going. longer. Like whether it was like at. least I could get. >> like why. >> between alcohol and suicide it was like. at least I can get shitfaced tonight so. that I don't care about what a mess my. life is. And with suicide it was I. always have that power to end it so I. can go another day. So it was like these. these these two dark companions on my.

shoulders that had ironically like kept. me going and you know eventually it. flipped and I was like it's time I have. poured my heart into getting help like. all these meds all these hospitals all. these professionals look what I've put. my family through I'm a total mess I. can't work I can't support myself and I. if all this is all that's in store for. me for the rest of my life because I. have this incurable brain disease like.

this isn't a life worth living. >> and and when I you know I like you know. flatline and medevac and my oh yeah my. parents were told like dn signed do not. resuscitate be a vegetable it was like. god I mean this was a god thing. >> and had you taken a lot of medicine that. day. >> oh yeah on purpose I took a month's. supply with a bottle of wine um. >> what kind of wine was it do you remember. >> it it was red wine I don't know what. kind. >> it was just like. >> something Nice. If y'all were rich, I. bet. >> No, but weirdly my.

>> like something that came off a pirate. ship or whatever. >> Oh, that would be cool. No, they they it. was like, you know, probably bare. barefoot, you know, that one. >> Oh, those were good for a while. >> That was that that was the era. This is. 2008 when I tried to get myself. >> Yeah. Barefoot was popping. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And here you were barefoot. Probably. taking pills, too. >> Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. >> You were kind of shoeless, dude. I don't. even think they let you keep your shoes. because they have sho strings in them. >> Oh. Oh, yeah. If you're locked up in a. psych ward, that's like definitely they. take any laces that you have.

>> Did you go to a psych ward? >> Four times. >> No way. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Can you take me into just what that's. like a little bit? >> I just laugh because people have this if. if you haven't spent time yourself on a. psychward or visiting someone on a. psychward, you have this like, oh, it's. like the spa, like go away and get some. rest. People are going to take care of. you. You're literally all, you know, any. possession you have that could be, you. know, that they perceive as a potential. weapon is gone. You're on this thin. plastic mattress. And and by the way, I.

should clarify, all my psychward. experiences were in fancy private. hospitals. Wow. >> So, I'm not I've been on in in state. public institutions visiting people. I. can talk about those in a minute, but my. experience was the spa the the. >> the nicer the nicer style. >> The top of the line and you know just a. thin. >> It sounds nice. >> Okay. Well, if you w let me walk you. through the day. So you you you wake up. in the morning on your like stiff. plasticky mattress. >> And do you have a s or not?

>> Um is a s a roommate? >> A roommate. A si. like c e l l y. >> Yeah, >> basically. Yeah. So it it sometimes. you'll have a a private room like I had. a one hospital I was in you had your own. private room but at MLAN I had a. roommate and you know glaring. fluorescent lights overhead when you. first get in they check on you every 15. minutes like through the whole night. they shine a flashlight on your face to. make sure you're still alive and you're. like really dude I was you were just in. here 15 minutes ago. Um, but you wake up.

in the morning and you know, you kind of. like stumble down to the nurses station. to get your morning meds, go into the. the dining room and you get like even at. a fancy place like McLean, like it's not. nice food. It's uh like, you know, dried. out French toast and cereal boxes and. that kind of thing. And then you. basically just spend your day being. coerced into going to these like super. cheesy groups like emotion regulation.

and anxiety management and you know. family skills and you're sitting there. with like 22-year-old like very bubbly. young women for the most part who were. like here's the mood chart. Can you. point Theo to which one you resonate. with most this morning? And then you. pick the like sad face or the anxiety. face. >> Yeah. Or the vape face. That's what I. was. >> Oh, I wonder if they have vape faces on. cuz I haven't been in locked up in so. long. Like vapes didn't even exist. A.

vape face. What would it look like? >> It' just be a regular face just kind of. nonchalant or mildly shalant just. hitting a vape. >> Oh, nice. >> I think anyway. I don't know. I'm just. thinking out loud, but that's the one. I'd probably pick most of the time. But. I'd be aiming probably for the for the. joyful face. Um, okay. So you have so. you're in there and is any of it like. you're doing like family of origin work. like is there some more depth like in. there about it or. >> there's no depth happening there. It's. all these like, you know, it's it's all. very superficial like, you know, my, you.

know, my my mom and I are getting into. fights because there's a whole group of. patients with you and and it's like a, you know, 30 minute so there's no deep. work. There's no meaningful like. exploratory. >> and is anybody chained up or anything. like that in there or. >> people do get uh restrained if they are. naughty. >> Um, >> who's naughty in there? Was anybody. >> Well, one night perves in there. >> Oh, I thank goodness there were.

definitely some some per I mean I. crossed paths with some strange. guys in some of my psych word. experiences. But but one one restraint. story I talk about it in my book. She. was this young woman who was a student. at MIT. Um I can't remember what part of. Asia she was from but she was from. somewhere in Asia. She was really quiet. she'd gotten admitted because she was I. didn't even know why she'd gotten. admitted at the time, but she was. admitted and we all she didn't talk to. anyone. She was just very quiet. And.

then one day someone delivered her. flowers. >> and the nurse, you know, they obviously. will like check to make sure there's no. no, you know, there's nothing bad in. there. Yeah, paraphernalia. That was the. word I was looking for. >> They gave her the flowers and she read. the card and then she just threw them. across the hallway and started. screaming. blood curdling screams and she wouldn't. stop. And the staff tried to get her to. stop and just screaming, screaming, screaming. And then eventually.

staff literally like physically picked. her up and carried her and put her in. the quiet room and she got quiet. >> Which probably means she was injected. with a tranquilizer. >> Dang, they hit her with that dart, huh? >> Yeah. The the. >> Were you able to find out what was in. the card? Like what what was so. upsetting? No, I I never because she. never talked to any of us afterwards. And it and it was, you know, and I I. have tons of friends who I wasn't locked. up with, but who I know from my work. who've been restrained, put in fourpoint.

restraints specifically. So, you know, I'm thinking of one guy I know, this big. hulking guy. He'd been put on meds in. college because one of his best friends. died of an overdose, like an accidental. overdose, and he was super spun out. about it, as anyone would be. And so, he. wasn't able to focus, and he started. taking stimulants, and then he stopped. sleeping. And any human being who stops. sleeping is eventually going to get. psychotic because that's literally what. happens to any human brain. So, he ended.

up getting sucked into the mental health. system that way and got a bipolar. diagnosis. and eventually a schizophrenia. diagnosis. Um, and he was just put on. all these meds and he would take them. for long periods of time and then he'd. stop them abruptly because he didn't. know about withdrawal and we're going to. come back to that I'm sure. And so he'd. get all messed up and then he police. would get involved and then he'd be put. in what will happen sometimes to. patients um on wards is they'll get put. in four-point restraints. So, your your.

wrists are restrained and your ankles. are restrained and they pin you down on. your stomach and they pull your pants. down and they inject you with a. so-called medicine in your butt cheek. and just like knock you out and they'd. leave him he would tell me like they'd. leave me for hours. I'd piss myself like. that that kind of thing happens. Um. >> so so sometimes if things got severe. they would medicate people right on the. spot. >> Yeah. Against their will. Yeah. And that. never happened to me because I was. always so compliant. And I always did. what I was told and and so, you know,

after my overdose, uh, when I I was like in a coma, it was. like a wild thing. I was like intubated. Yeah. It was crazy. Catheter, everything. And I woke up. I go into all. of it in my in my my book. I really want. you to read my book, Theo, because I. feel like we have just from hearing what. you've shared online about I just. >> Yeah. Okay. >> It's It's. >> I love my book. I'm so proud of my book. and I wrote it to help people and but. >> check back in with me in two months. Give me two months to read it, will you? >> Totally.

>> Is that a fair amount of time? >> I also did the audible recording. It's. my voice. So, if you like to listen to. stuff when you're working out, but it's. it's heavy and dark and and I go into. this. >> I've dated some heavy dark women. >> Well, we heavy dark women, we're the way. to we're the way to go, I think. You. know, we're intense. We're a little you. know, it takes a lot of energy to to be. with us. It's like if my husband was. here, he'd be like, um, but we. >> No, and I didn't mean it like that. I. meant I've dated some heavier, darker. women.

That's what I meant. But I've also dated. some women who have uh who kind of like. Yeah. or a little bit have a lot more. Eeyore in them than, you know, than than. Tiger, I guess you would say. So, um, but anyway, we got to move on. >> Anyway, back to I wasn't trying to be. back. No, but. but so so so you know there I was on the. psych word after my overdose like waking. up from a coma and death. that choice I made to kill myself I I.

hold. >> so there was an active choice to take. your life. Oh yeah. And to this day, I. have deep respect for that choice I made. because given the story I had been. taught to believe about myself that I. had this treatment resistant, incurable. brain disease that I would never be able. to manage. Like it was the logical. choice to me. >> Right? So that's something that I think. as as listeners that we we got to. understand a little bit more is that or. I'm not telling anybody to understand. it, but this is something I would. suggest because I'm realizing this more. now is that you're in this idea that. there's no way out. Yep. So you're just.

kind of managing something and it's. getting worse. So at certain point. you've kind of medicated yourself into a. corner and it's like what do you do then. if there is no solution as far as you've. known? >> Well, you're being Yeah, exactly. You've. been told there's no other solution. And. that's that's the thing is that I didn't. realize at the time that that was a. story I had been told that wasn't. actually true. And I think to the urge. to die because I was suicidal for years. It was like like I was saying, it was. like a companion. It was part of my.

life. And I realize now my urge to die was. always actually a profound urge to live. just in an entirely different way from. everything I knew. And so death felt. like I thought that meant death, but it. actually meant really like a the a more. um symbolic death of of the life that I. was living, not literal death. >> So you're saying I I want this this this. version of life that I'm living. I don't.

want to live anymore. >> Yeah. And so you think like that means I. have to myself, but I see now like I. just didn't know how else what else it. could mean. And and of course all these. years later like this is another place. where I'll get teeyed. You know, this. that was 18 years ago. >> Oh, I can't even imagine. >> Had you told me in that and that at age. 27 after my overdose like my life would. look the way it looks now, never would. have believed you. Like no way. Like no. way. in hell is it's not possible.

>> Wow. >> Um and so I I you know it it took. another two years after my overdose for. my turning point to happen for for me to. actually kind of wake up from from all. of this. And um Oh yeah, sorry. And my. suicide attempt was 25. 27 was when I. woke up. Uh so yeah, I was 27. My the. the previous two years after my overdose. were like more of the same. I was still. a mess, living with family, like totally. disabled. >> Did you try and get any pets or what.

modalities did you get? >> Oh, I couldn't have handled a pet. I. wouldn't have been able to. >> Really? But not even a little gerble of. something like that. >> Oh, gerbble. Wait, do you say gerble. down here? We say gerbble up there. >> Gerbble. >> Yeah, >> I like gerbble way better. >> Oh, yeah. Gerble. >> Gerbble. It doesn't sound as nice as. gerbble. >> Yeah, gerbble sounds like it's from the. streets or something. It sounds like. it's like he's from Memphis. You know. what I'm saying? No, but I picture him. with little spectacles on and like a cup. of tea. >> Mr. Gerbal. >> But anyways, no, I couldn't have had a. ger a gerbal. I couldn't have had a.

plant. I was like taking a shower once a. week was a really big deal. >> And Yeah. >> I've been that depressed before. A long. time ago, but I've been that depressed. where every moment feels so heavy. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like a war. you you're. literally fighting a battle every day. and when you put your head on the pillow. and you haven't died, you're like, I did. it. I I I won the battle today. It's and. it's it's not sustainable. And I that. you know of course brings me back to.

just how so you know there it's not a. coincidence that we have 65 million. Americans on these meds because you can. only bear suffering for so long before. you need relief and and you know that. kind of like that sound of those pills. and that capsule like can really just it. brings so much promise until until it. doesn't you know and and and so for me. that turning point happened in 2010 I. was 27. I was just gotten out of my last.

hospitalization, my second to last. hospitalization. I'd quit drinking. because by then, like I'd said earlier, booze became like a, you know, my go-to. way of not killing myself was like. getting drunk every night. >> So, you were on all these meds and. drinking? >> Oh, yeah. Five meds, including three. milligrams of Clonopin. I was on two. mood stabilizers, an antiscychotic and. an anti-depressant plus plus the benzo. Drinking like for some reason I loved. Harpoon IPA. Do you guys even have that.

down here? It's like a New England IPA. beer. This was like before. >> the whole micro brewery thing happened. I'd either drink, you know, like a six. >> I love how you're on all these pills and. you're like and also I'm going to have a. harpoon IPA. >> six of them. Like I I mean I it was I. was a mach I don't know if you if with. with anti-depressants if your tolerance. for alcohol. >> you're like Ric Flair dude. >> I don't know who that is. >> You're like sick Flair. >> Can you tell me who he is? >> Ric Flair was like is is sorry I'm. saying was Ric Flair is this famous um.

uh wrestler. He's actually never I've. interviewed him and he's actually. >> Oh him. >> uh he's actually a great guy and he's. also actually never taken drugs but he. just likes. >> but he has a robust body. He Yeah. He. has Yeah, he's a blonde. >> He's a blonde and he likes to drink. >> That's an amazing outfit. >> And he loves He loves alcohol being a. part of his lifestyle and stuff. It's. always been a part of his lifestyle. That's why I'm saying that. I love you, Rick. >> Well, a lot of a lot of people who've. been on long-term psych meds end up.

becoming total booze bags like like I. did. And they they're told, "Oh, you. have alcoholism." Um but when they. eventually come off their meds, and this. is was my experience, too. Like I I. eventually realized like actually um the. combination was like kind of leading me. to to act in these crazy ways. Like now. that I've been. off these meds for so long and I'm like. in my body and I am in touch with my.

body's signals and needs, like I. couldn't imagine ever drinking the way. that I did back then. Like sometimes I. would drink like two bottles of wine in. a night and I'd be totally blacked out, but apparently I no one ever could tell. I would like act normal until the very. end and then like crazy [ __ ] would. happen and ambulances would get called. on me and I'd wake up with like charcoal. on my shirt in the emergency room. My. stomach would be pumped like. >> Oh yeah, you're like John Dailyaly it. sounds like at a barbecue. >> Darn it. I don't know who he is either.

>> Oh, he's a famous golfer who likes to. party. >> Okay, >> there he is. >> Oh. Oh, he's cute. Yeah, he is cute. >> Look at that outfit. Yeah, he's. handsome. I mean, but he has a bar. He. has a bar down. He has a bar here in. town, but he likes he likes to party. >> Oh, he looks awesome. >> He used to live at a Hooters. But yeah, he likes to party, dude. >> Yeah. Well, that I would have been like. with them like out all night people. And. but I I I think the combination of all. the meds and the alcohol was like def. definitely um it it I don't know how it. interfered with metabolism, but it ma it.

made me able to drink a lot more and. blackout. As you say that, I remember. when I first got uh prescribed. antipressants, I got onto Zoloft and um. I could drink. Suddenly I could go out. to drink. I never even really liked. drinking. Interesting. But I was living. in Charleston, South Carolina at the. time um with some people I met in the. ocean or whatever. And. >> in the ocean? >> Yeah. I met some folks in the ocean and. they let me stay over with them. And. then um but anyway, suddenly I could. drink and I was drinking genonics or.

whatever, dude. Like Yeah. It's. interesting. >> like I was like Jimmy Buffett's god. nephew or whatever. >> I don't know what is happening in the. body to enable that. But I think this. this ends up happening for a lot of. people. But so so in 2010 like I I. eventually did make the decision to stop. drinking thinking that if I remove. alcohol maybe this treatment resistant. bipolar won't be treatment resistant. anymore and my meds will finally help me. and because I've been self-medicating. with alcohol and that's why the meds.

haven't helped. So like that was the. headsp space I was in. So, I I'd quit. drinking and within a month or two, I'd. have I'd had enough I'd gotten enough. clarity of mind from not being like. blackout every night to to realize like, holy cow, I've been on these meds since. I was a kid. Like, I don't know who I. am. Like, everything you talk about so. powerfully. Like, what do I really care. about? Like, what does my bo what would. my body actually look like? Would I. actually be in this like 200 pound body?

would I actually feel connected to. people. I just started asking these. questions because I felt such a. difference from just not drinking. anymore. Um, and that was when I began. to bring it up with my doctor like maybe. maybe I could come off some of these. five meds I'm on. Like I was literally. on five meds prescribed by one doctor at. literally at the top psychiatric. hospital in the country. Like the best. of the best care. And the doctor didn't. want to do it, you know, like we don't. want to rock the boat. Blah blah blah.

Um, >> the boat is shipwreck. The boat is the. Andrea Gale. Like, what are we even. [ __ ] talking about? The boat just. started in a perfect storm with Mark. Wahberg. The boat ain't doing well. And. but but what's so tragic about it is. that because the boat was like me. showering more often and like not being. in the psych ward, it felt like the. Queen Elizabeth on her first voyage. So. we feel like the boat's doing better. >> It felt like I am rocking it. Like I'm.

not in the psych ward. I'm alive. I. showered twice this week. >> Let's go. >> And I didn't like binge eat two boxes of. cereal. >> Yeah. With your hand. >> I'm doing great. Yeah. >> Oh yeah. When you hand finish a box of. cereal, dude, >> the hand you got your elbow up and. you're just And then you even get the. >> is a rich thing. That's like having. pinkies up when you drink like a martini. or whatever. Like if you eat a box of. cereal, elbow up with your hand to the. bottom. >> Huh? You just get in there. You put your. dang head in there like a man. Like a. >> You're going like this.

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or email them at admin. valorreoverycoaching.com. Thank you. >> Um, so wait, you get diagnosed with. treatment resistant bipolar, >> but they keep you on on medicines. Well, for me they did. But what is so wild. about the whole treatment resistant. thing, and it's why it's in the subtitle. of my book, because to me this is like a. the kind of one of the core.

problems, is that there's a whole. industry of treating treatment. resistance. So for a lot of people, especially people who have a treatment. resistant depression diagnosis, that's. when you start getting told about. electroconvulsive therapy, electroshock, or transcranial magnetic stimulation, TMS. Like that's when you get into the. medical device realm and they're like, "Oh, all these pills didn't work, so now. let's put this giant magnet on your head.

and shoot powerful current, powerful. magnetic pulses through your brain or. like let's put electrodes on your skull. and shoot electric currents through. you." So there. >> you have investigated those those uh. those things before. Yeah, I I go into. ECT in my book and some of the other. like medical devices in it um because it. is the it's the treatment for treatment. resistance. I never no one ever. suggested those to me and it just speaks. to the like kind of illogical illogical.

nature of a lot of this. But yeah and. and had they offered ECT to me, I. probably would have said yes. But but. actually um like the conventional kind. of like uh protocol for people with a. bipolar diagnosis is that ECT can induce. mania. I I doubt there's any like actual. evidence base for that, but that's. probably why they didn't. >> Okay, got it. Um how do you start to put. the medicine in the rearview mirror? >> So I began bringing it up with my doctor.

like I want to see what my baseline. would be off of these meds I've been on. since I was a kid. and he said no for a. few months and then and then this was. May 2010. Then I stumbled upon a book. that had this old phronology head on the. covers, you know, like those old like. early 20th century drawings where. they're like different compartments in. the skull and and it had in each. different compartment a different. psychiatric drug name. And so the cover.

pulled me in. I was like, "Whoa, I've. been on that. I've been on that. I'm on. that now." And I was like, "What's this. book?" and it was called Anatomy of an. Epidemic and I just felt compelled to. buy it. So I bought it and I started. reading it and it blew my mind and so. basically yeah there it is. So um in a. nutshell, this journalist. sets out to answer the question of like. why why when you look at long-term. outcomes of psychiatric medication use.

for schizophrenia do people in. developing countries quote unquote where. they don't have all these you know. medications do better than in the US and. other developed countries quote unquote. and he ends up discovering like if you. actually look at the what evidence-based. does exist for long-term medication use, it makes a pretty compelling case that. on the whole, these drugs long-term are. making us sicker, >> physically more disabled. And so there I.

was on long-term meds, five of them. through, you know, all these years, my. life falling apart, and it all clicked. and I was like, "Oh my god, what if it's. not treatment resistant mental illness?". Like, what if it's the treatment? >> Oh, >> yeah. And it and then once that was. removed for like I couldn't un unsee. that realization and it like haunted me. And of course I first went through this. state of like shock. It can't be true. like it it can't be true that all this. medicine maybe has been hurting me.

because I just had never it never. occurred to me. And so that was the what. gave me the confidence to go back to my. doctor and be like I don't really care. if you don't want me to do this. I'm. going to do it. are you going to help me or not? And he. was totally unsupportive and basically. you know made me feel like this was the. biggest mistake but he was like I'll. I'll you know I'll allow it. Like he. just you know he he was willing to bring. me off. >> And was this the same doctor that had. put you on them? >> Yeah. I mean I saw so many doctors over.

the years but it was the one I was. seeing with the five med regimen. >> Okay. Got it. Um, and this gets us to, you know, the topic that I I'm like so. excited to connect with you more about. here is when I made the decision to come. off my meds, I had no idea how hard it. would be to get off them. >> Amen. >> No one told me, my doctor certainly had. no idea. Um, I had no idea that using. these medications, which are. psychoactive chemicals that work by.

altering how your central nervous system. works, like if you use them for months, especially years, your whole body is. going to adapt to them. >> Is that true that some of them alter how. your central nervous system works? >> All of them. All anti-depressants, mood. stabilizers, benzo, they they cause it's. a it's basically they create physical. dependence which is different from. addiction in that when you're addicted. to something you have cravings for it.

You like seek it out even though you. know it's causing problems. Physical. dependence is a purely physiological. state where your body changes itself to. accommodate the presence of this drug. such that when you remove it, it's. destabilized. >> Oh yeah. >> And so no one told me no one told you. either, I'm assuming. Well, I'm just. shocked that like I'm shocked that there. was never an exit strategy like when you. get on the drugs. Like I'd been. hitchhiking or whatever to see this girl. that I was in love with or whatever, but.

she didn't like me and like I was like. kind of heartbroken or whatever. And. then um so I went to a doctor in town. cuz I wasn't doing that good. Like I was. sneaking in people's yards at night and. petting their animals and [ __ ] I wasn't. doing great. And so this so anyway, the. doctor put me on this medication cuz I. was like pretty heartbroken. I think a. lot of it was other childhood stuff that. I'd attached to this relationship um. unknowingly. And so I was pretty. heartbroken. Um.

but I was heartbroken in a bigger realm. kind of than just this specific thing. But this was the epicenter of it. Sort. of this had like launched it. >> This was the match really. And so I get. uh I get on these meds and then. everything's kind of fine, but there was. never like a checkup later. I ended up. leaving South Carolina like a few months. after that. And um and there was never. like a check in back really to like. figure out if you stay on them. And so I. was just on them for a long time. >> Was it a psychiatrist you prescribed. them or a general like your primary care.

doctor? Do you remember? >> I can't remember. I can't remember if I. I I think it was a psychiatrist. So I. think I'd went to someone who could. actually prescribe medicine. So, it was. someone that at least knew of what the. medicines were. Uh, but then I got on it. and uh and then I've just been on it for. years and there's times where I've. gotten off to try and um like I tried. plant medicine a few times to got off so. I could do plant medicine experiences. >> Um and some of that helped a lot like uh. doing Iawasa helped a lot. >> but uh the thing that I didn't realize.

was I wasn't getting off of them. correctly. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing that I. most recently when I tried to get off I. didn't get off of him correctly. And I. was talking with this guy uh Dr. Mark. Horowitz is his name. >> Oh, you've talked Yeah, Mark's a close. friend and I was just talking with him. earlier today. >> Oh, were you really? >> Yeah, we're very close. We've worked. together on a lot of this. >> and he's like out of the blue um one of. my friends recommended him to come and. podcast sometime and so I've kind of. just been emailing with him but I've. been emailing with him um in some mild.

consultation about medicine. >> Great. And he and I I got off and I. thought I titrated down well cuz I went. from like 10 milligrams to five and then. to nothing. >> Oh, Theo. Oh my goodness. Which and. which is this? Was this Lexapro that you. were on? >> This was escatalopram then the generic. Lexapro I think. And when I tell you I. hit this thing that was like I didn't. care about really anything and I started. sleeping in and I started um things that. I cared about became like I didn't even.

I didn't know if I cared about them and. so I just kind of didn't care about. them. I started envisioning futures for. myself that were kind of um. careless sort of or mundane maybe um not. even like peaceful one just like. nonchalant about everything and that g. that got a little bit spooky uh because. I I knew that that wasn't real or how I. really felt it and it was too much and. just the sleeping in I hadn't slept in. since I was like really in my 20s.

really. He was like, "So, what am I. doing?" And so, he said that the. titration has to be different. So, I'm. still in consultation with him, but I. recently had to get back on. I've been. off for about 6 months. And I really had. tried my best. >> And had was 10 the the dose that you had. been at for a while or had you been at a. higher dose? >> I've been at 20 before that for a while. Yeah. >> Um, and then at 10 for probably a year. or two, but in the end, it's like 25. years. Some, you know, 20 something. years. So, it's like anyway, there's a. lot more to it. And I still I'm going to. try again at some point, but not without.

better consultation. But um let's get. back. So that's what's been going on. with me about it. But let's get back. into your story. So um what was the. toughest parts about getting off of. these uh for you? >> Yeah. I mean, because my doctor had no. idea what he was doing and I didn't know. anything about physical dependence and. withdrawal. >> And what year was this? >> This was 2010. I was 27. >> Nobody know. >> Yeah. And so I came off five drugs in. six months, which is cold turkey. Like. >> you're like the Jesse Owens of getting. off drugs, like a triathlete.

>> Well, and and this again brings bring. like I can't not mention class here. Like the fact that I had the. socioeconomic resources to be completely. disabled for years, like years. The. coming off five meds in six months blew. up my life for years. And but I had a. family who could take care of me and and. so many people don't have that. And and. so it was just to describe a little bit. about what it was like. I mean things. were bad on the meds. Like I had all.

kinds of health problems and like super, you know, emotional instability and. cognitive issues and all of that. But. that all went on overdrive. Like I. couldn't talk. I'd I' I'd know we'd be. sitting down wanting to have a. conversation and I'd have an idea in my. head that I'd want to speak out to you, >> but the words wouldn't come out and or. they'd come out and they'd sound really. weird. I just like I couldn't translate. thought to speaking. I couldn't absorb. words. >> I would get you quit cold turkey.

>> f in six months. Five med but five meds. So it's basically cold turkey. Like. that's so fast. I just want turkey. I go. back in like just to paint a picture and. you know Mark Mark's work you referenced. like he we've worked close closely he's. a close colleague of mine and so I come. from the lay person world like the. ex-patient world and he comes from both. that world because he himself was on. this stuff and he's also a psychiatrist. >> the protocols that he.

>> um you know writes about and and uses. like came from the lay person community. because it was. >> does a lay person mean. >> lay person means a non-d doctor, a. non-medical expert patients like. >> just a blueco collar pill taker. >> totally just like you know bottom of the. social hierarchy of the medical. hierarchy like the patient we patients. ourselves who basically had to and I. didn't I didn't do it the right I did it. the wrong way because I didn't know but. it's been over decades that patients. have had to figure out how to do it the.

right way just through trial and error. and figuring it out and and Mark's. tapering guidelines and the very very. few number of other um practitioners who. know how to taper safely all come from. the expatient community because what we. realized is to get off these meds. successfully. If you go to your average doctor, they'll they'll say A, they'll say, "Oh, yeah, you can do this in two weeks or. four weeks or eight weeks." And B, they'll say, and you just cut it, you. know, cut it in half and then cut it in.

half again and then stop. And then. they'll they'll just like do a kind of. linear thing where you're on 100 now. drop to 90, 80, 70, 60. But what people. figured out just through what it felt. like is my gosh, you know, at this. higher dose, I can come down like that. But the lower the dose gets, the harder. this feels. I've got to I've got to make. smaller reductions in my dose and maybe. space it out a little longer. So it ends. up looking like this hyperbolic curve.

For anyone listening, it's. >> like a ramp almost like a skater's ramp. >> Exa. Yeah, exactly. That's or like a. bowl, you know, inside of a nice salad. bowl. So you're not making a straight. line, a straight, you know, diagonal. line. >> or like a staircase. >> Yeah. It's not like that. It's more of a. gentle curve. And the lower that you get. in the overall dose, the smaller the. reductions you make. And this is. literally the opposite of what most. doctors tell their patients, they're. like, "Oh, you're on a low dose. You can. just pop off.". And the reason why this is the case is.

now research is verifying what patients. figured out through experience is that. the the the effect that these drugs have. on the central nervous system is not um. directly correlated with the dosage. size. So like if you go from 10 to 20 of. Lexapro, >> you're not you're not doubling the. effect that the the drug is having on. your brain. going from 0 to 10 is has a. significant.

a significant effect on your central. nervous system. It disrupts your central. nervous system in a much more. significant way than you know going from. 10 to 20 or 20 to 40 or so the higher. the dose the the less disruption is. happening to your central nervous. system. >> I see. But that last 10 or whatever. that's a severe. >> Yeah. So the lower the dose you get when. you're coming off, the more of an effect. the changes are having, which is why. like you you experience going from 10 to.

5 to zero like. >> like blue blue, you know, >> just melancholy. Everything was a. melancholy thing and it was very. bizarre. I almost cannot even explain. it. I tried to fight through it and like. I was taking different um. >> doing different things in the morning, trying different modalities. It was just. too much and it just became too much. And so I just said, you know, I'm going. to live to fight another day. So, I'm. going to get back on my meds. Um, >> how long did it take for you to make. that choice? Like, how long were you off. for? >> Well, for the first like 6 weeks, everything was kind of okay, it felt.

like, and then it got like it was just. manageable. A little bit of like. depression here and there, but it was. stuff that I'd done before that felt. manageable. And then, um, and then it. just got too bizarre. Just the. melancholy was a little too much. >> But you knew it was, like you said. earlier, like this doesn't feel this. feels like otherworldly. This is just. like this is not me. >> It's right. I knew it wasn't me. I I. knew it was something. I knew it was me. experiencing something because of. something that was going on. Yeah. Med. medically. And so I thought it would go.

away and uh and I was emailing with Dr. Horton. He's like, "No, it it it could. stay around for a long time." And at a. certain point I said, "I just can't. battle this anymore." It was have it was. causing me some troubles even with my. like sobriety sobriety like just being. able to like with my um just being in. recovery and stuff like that. It was. causing me just a lot of confusion. Uh. yeah. >> So anyway, um so I'm back on, but uh. okay, let's get back into what you were. talking about. >> So yeah, I knew none of what we just. talked about when I came off. So I came. off really fast and then, you know, just. intense magnification of all these.

cognitive problems and emotional. upheaval and digestive issues and like. weird, you know, boils on my skin, weird. smells coming out of my body. Like it. was just it was crazy. And like back. then I couldn't have been under these. lights. These these bright lights would. have set off like a panic attack. So I I. remember you know going to the grocery. store which was a big deal to go to the. grocery store and you know all the. sounds and the movement and the colors. I'd be like I'm uh it would my body it.

was like my body thought I was being. eaten by a tiger just just like being in. a grocery store. So my whole my fight. orflight response was just completely on. on. >> and and of course you know most people. who come off their meds fast. because there's no you know until Bobby. Kennedy you know our country hasn't. really paid much attention to this. So. like most people when they feel that way. off their meds think they're having a.

relapse quote unquote. They think like, "Oh my gosh, my illness is coming back.". >> Ah, >> like this is this is a sign I need my. meds. And and everyone's telling them. that, too. The doctor's telling them. that. Their loved ones are telling them. that. Like, you feel horrible off your. med. This means you need it. Go back on. it. And then they go back on it and they. feel better quote unquote because. they're not like having a panic attack. in the grocery store anymore. So then. they think, "Oh, wow. This medication is. really helping me.". >> Yeah. But I didn't feel It's so funny. you say that because I didn't think.

exactly. I didn't feel like, oh man, that girl broke up with me again. It's. not like I went back to that feeling. It. was just I just feel like I'm off this. thing that I can't that I need to have. now. So, I just felt addicted. >> It's amazing that you had that that you. had that sense so strongly. I think some. some people definitely do. They they. know like this is not me. This is these. these drugs. A lot of people don't have. that. like they I think they they are so.

disconnected from their instincts like. and this was definitely the case for me. too. I just was so disconnected from my. own, you know, intuition about stuff. that I just like couldn't like it's when. you describe how you felt those six. weeks in when you were like something's. wrong like this is not this is not me. This is not my like usual. down stuff like that's was your in that. was your instinct like you know ringing. the bell. A lot of people don't have.

that and so then they go back on and. they stay on for another 10, 20, whatever years because they're like, I. don't want to feel that way again. because they just don't know if you did. it slower it might look very different. >> Yeah. And that's what I'm hopeful for in. the future. Um, what about were you able. to maintain a relationship during any of. this? What was that like for you? >> All those poor I mean I basically dated. guys who were as lost and and uh. destabilized as I was. So, like not a.

pretty picture. Um, and you know, very. we were all just seeking relief. Not. all. It wasn't like multiple of them at. a time, but in each each of those dark. relationships, we were basically just. like running away from pain together. >> And did medicines cause like intimacy. issues kind of did you have like cuz I. know a lot of like a lot of guys there's. fear with guys if if I get on. antid-depressants, it's like it can. affect my like it can it can maybe cause. aimacy disorder. Can you look look that. up, Trevan? >> Well, yeah, it definitely causes sexual.

>> uh Oh, this says right here. It says um. yes, mental health medications can. absolutely cause intimacy and sexual. issues. This is a very common side. effect, particularly with. antid-depressants and antiscychotics. It often happens because these drugs. affect the brain chemicals that control. mood, desire, and physical arousal. >> Does it does this similar stuff happen. with women kind of? And and if it's too. personal, we can take it out. >> Oh, no. Oh my if if you I I will bear it. all like I because to me the more you.

know vulnerable we are in in the stories. you know in our stories is the more it's. the more helpful it is. So no. Yeah. I I. had my first orgasm at the age of 27. I. had zero sexual function on psych drugs. and I didn't even realize what I was. missing because I'd been put on them so. young. So I I just assumed and was being. told that my like inability to feel. bonded to God, you know, bonded. intimate, you know, aroused, all those. things was my illness, my quote unquote.

my mental illness. >> So I never put it together. And thank. God when I got off, I regained my sexual. function. And I and I talk about it in. my book, like of all the betrayals, of. all the loss, of all the, you know, the. the disconnection that I experienced as. from being on long long-term psych meds. It was the the taking of my sexuality. um especially in my teenage and 20some. years that was the hardest to make peace.

with because sexuality is about so much. more than just sex. It's, you know, like. how you are in the world, your vibrancy, your vitality. It's like how you create. art. It's how you appreciate beauty and. music. It's like all tied into. sexuality. And that does get suppressed. and disconnected for a lot of people. And I just want to name too that for a. certain percentage of people, and we. need more research to better understand. this, when they come off. anti-depressants,

they lose sexual function. So they don't. even necessarily have sexual problems on. meds. When they stop it goes away and. it's called PSSD, post SSRI sexual. dysfunction. And it's devastating. And. there are a lot of like actually can I. can I call out a clip to look up? >> For sure. >> Google PSSD Lauren Freriedman. Uh PSSD. is a condition where sexual side effects. such as genital numbness, low sex drive, and weak orgasms persist for months,

years, or even decades after completely. stopping selective serotonin reuptake. inhibitors or related antid-depressant. medications. I will say this, I did. notice that um my orgasms was different. >> They was different, man. They was just. I mean it just they was different, man. They was not they was they was just. different, you know. They were just like. >> like the PSI on them was low. That's I.

just felt like the PSI on them was low. >> And when you were off for those months, did it change? >> Oh, when I was when I got off them, that's what I'm talking about. >> Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. >> Yeah. When I got off the end of the. press, >> that was when it Yeah. >> Yeah. There was just like it was just. like Yeah. It was just it wasn't it was. just not it was just barely just it was. not much. It was just it was low. It was. low man. >> Is there time? It's a short clip. Is. there time? Yeah, there it Lauren. Freriedman.

>> this just to contextualize this. So So I. we my organization Intercompass. Initiative. We helped organize um a. summit on mental health and. overmedicalization in DC on May 4th that. Bobby Kennedy came and spoke at and he. made these big policy announcements. about deprescribing at the event. And. this panel was. >> about deprescribing. >> deprescribing. Yep. About helping all. these guidelines that don't exist that. you know Mark Horowitz's work and our. work that don't exist in the in the. government in the public health system.

um under Secretary Kenny's leadership, you know, they want to focus on that and. actually get good guidelines in and and. train doctors and all that. So, this was. a panel of young people and her clip. Well, I'm going to talk about another. time. I'm going to cry, but you got to. listen to this. >> Yeah, let's watch this. And I remember. Joe Rogan sent me this one night. He he. sends me this stuff to kind of keep me. updated on um some of the awareness. about this stuff. Let's go ahead and. watch it. DSSD is not just a loss of sexual. function but a loss for some people of.

emotional function as well. That has. been the case for me. Um before this I. was a super emotional. uh empathetic, loving, caring like. Sylvia Pla reading and resonating girl. And the day I woke up with this injury, I quite literally felt my soul leave my. body. Like I'm so serious. It was the. most unbelievable inorganic thing I've. ever experienced. And it's a common. symptom of people who have this. condition. Um, to this day, it's been.

years for me. I'm 23 now. I can't feel. love for my own mother, which is the. hardest thing on earth. Um, I can't feel. connection or love for my friends, um, or even pleasure in music, which was the. bane of my existence. I was a songwriter. since I was a child. It was my outlet. Um, and it's been completely. neurologically severed from these. medications. Um, and I just like to say there's a. reason that, you know, every song on the.

radio, every movie on your television, every piece of art since the beginning. of humanity centers on sex and love. And. not just romantic love, but platonic, familial love. And that is because these. are the most central, intoxicating, worthwhile, and fulfilling parts of the. human experience. These aren't luxuries. And to remove someone's ability to. participate, not just physically through. sex, which is completely horrific on its. own. But to remove someone's ability to. emotionally connect with another human. being is a crime against humanity. And I.

say crime against humanity, because. there is evidence that Eli Liy, who. created the first SSRI Prozac, knew. their drugs could cause permanent sexual. dysfunction and emotional numbness in. children especially. And they withheld this from the public. because they knew it would be a threat. to the bottom line. I mean, I'm hope I'm. not the only one who believes that. there's nothing more criminal or. dystopian to withhold from patients and. parents of patients that your medication. can permanently chemically castrate and. emotionally numb its user for the rest. of their life.

>> Wow. Is that true that Eli Lily was. hiding information? >> I didn't know that until she's she. shared that, but it would not surprise. me because drug companies have known all. along as well about withdrawal and they. suppress that. So, they they it would. not surprise me. I mean we we know. especially in the last six years that. pharmaceutical companies are happy to. not give us the full story. >> I don't believe that any of these uh. drug companies can be trusted anymore. I. don't know how you could I don't know. how any of us can trust them. I think it.

that's why there's so much um outside. medicine and internal work like outside. medicine like functional medicine. natural choices um homeopathic or. homeopathic and then um and just. internal work that people are trying to. do now to steer clear of uh of drug. companies. >> and and I think just one thing that I. didn't know when I started my journey on. these meds nor did my parents is that if. you if you actually read the drug labels. themselves that are right on you.

know.gov gov website like it's called. the or orange book if you Google FDA. orange book you can look up any FDA. approved drug and look at the drug. approval package I mean they redact a. lot of stuff but even looking at the. complete drug label if you actually read. the whole thing which is not easy some. of these are 50 pages this is not like. the little pamphlet you get at the. drugstore but the actual comprehensive. drug label you're you'll be shocked by. what you read like as an example.

If you were going to guess how long a. psychiatric drug is studied for in in. humans, like in in the drug trials that. get them approved as safe and effective, how long would you guess. >> that a psychiatric drug is studied for? >> Studied for? >> I would guess 10 years, >> 6 to 8 weeks, sometimes 10, sometimes 12. weeks. >> Wow. That's heartbreaking. Um, it's. brave of her to just like speak exactly. what she's feeling. um like that it's so.

rare that we're hearing sort of this. voice. I guess that's what's kind of. surprising to me. >> Um I think until recently it was rare to. hear someone like this speaking out, but. I've been doing this work for 16 years. and. I feel something profound shifting in. our culture. People are waking up, especially young people like Lauren who. are waking up and realizing the. betrayal. And and I want to be clear. like this isn't about bad doctors or.

mean doctors or evil doctors. This is. about a massive information problem that. is affecting us patients and our. families and the doctors themselves. This is about prescribers who have not. been given comprehensive information. either. Like I bet if you asked your. average psychiatrist. how long they thought the evidence base. was for the safety and and effectiveness. of your average anti-depressant and they. wouldn't even realize it's 6 to 8 weeks.

or 12 weeks. Like. >> unbelievable. >> We have an information crisis that has. made it impossible to be properly. informed on the patient side and on the. doctor's side. And I think it's a big. part of why we are now in a situation. where we have more suffering than ever. before. Rates of suicide are sky have. shot up, especially in young people. Um, in veterans, suicide crisis. We have, you know, 23.1% of Americans have a.

psychiatric diagnosis of some kind. And. so we have this mental health crisis and. everyone concludes like, oh my gosh, people must not be getting enough. treatment. They're not getting. treatment. But if you actually look at. the numbers, more people are getting. more treatment than ever before. >> than ever. So what is the real problem? Do you think do you feel like it's like. that there's uh compromised institutions. that are flooding um us with pills that. are trying to get us all hooked? Do you. feel like it's a big pharma pressure. from the top and like compromised um.

like studies and documentation? Uh, do. you feel like it's uh that we've all. been convinced that there's something. wrong with us? Um, what do you kind of. what have what what have you learned. from looking at this? Like what is the. real crisis? And it it I guess the. crisis is that we're on the medication. The crisis isn't that there's a crisis. >> I think the the list you gave is a great. starting point. I mean, it's so I. wouldn't pretend to have all the answers.

like at all. It's such a big there's so. many reasons why people are suffering. right now. So, you know, certainly. socioeconomic reasons, political. reasons, um, of course, like reasons. about tied into the food we're eating, the screens we're sitting in front of, the, you know, rigid kind of. conventional schooling systems that. young children are sent into every day. through the most critical years of their. lives. They're just being, you know, sat.

in seats under fluorescent lights. Expected. >> You think about it all. It's crazy. I. was even thinking about this the other. day. I was at, we're on a road trip and. we stopped at a gas station. A lot of. the things in the gas station, like. especially the candies, they're more. like plastic than they are like a food. Like if say if you were to take like. real food, and then you were to take. like a piece of plastic, something that. was made with plastic. If you put like. some candy in between them, the candy is. way more like the plastic. And just the. fact that we haven't even really thought.

about like we've just thought that all. of this is okay. Like if you had a. handful of plastic, would you just eat. that? >> But we are eating microplastics all day. every day. I mean, >> I know. But it's just it's almost. shocking to me that visually some of the. stuff even looks the same. And we're. still like I like people would buy gummy. worms, right? And I like gummy worms. sometimes, but it's also the same thing. I'm using to fish with pretty much when. I'm fishing, which is a a plastic lure, right? Yeah. >> But when you think that that's how it's. like I don't know. Some of it's just. baffling to me when I think about it.

>> Yeah. Well, and and that your average. kid, you you know, give them the choice. between this like glaring shiny. plasticky piece of candy and like a. beautiful apple grown on the a. neighbor's tree. Like which kid is going. to pick the apple? I think it it speaks. to how I mean this has been unfolding. for for all of modernity really through. for all of industrialized society. This. isn't like oh a few years ago things got. bad. I mean we've been slowly and slowly. and slowly over decades losing.

connection with our bodies with each. other with neighborhoods with. communities with meaning with purpose. with spirituality with God. as our. culture becomes increasingly. individualized, mechanized, systematized, you know, industrialized, institutionalized, and it's been this. like frog in slow boiling water where we. we haven't even realized what's been. happening to us because it's unfolded. over so much time. And so, I think the. reason we're in this so-called mental. health crisis is vast. And I'm and I'm.

not going to pretend to have an answer. to that. But when it comes to the role. that the mental health industry plays in. it, there are three there are three. critical misunderstandings that our. whole culture right now is is having. One is we are medicalizing problems that. aren't medical. Like that heartbreak you. felt like I'm going to get teary eyed. The heartbreak you felt it's like a. young 20-some guy. You were in love. I. don't even know the details. I don't. even need to know. To have your heart.

broken, to feel that pain, that grief, that, you know, terror of like, what is. my future going to hold? To call that a. medical problem. No, it's it's a social. problem, a relational. >> Yeah. I mean, it's half a chapter of. Romeo and Juliet. >> Totally. I mean, imagine if like people. in Shakespeare. >> Not the end chapter, not the end. chapter, >> but you know, imagine if people in. Shakes in Shakespearean times were like. going to doctors. We wouldn't even have. Shakespeare if they had medicine. If. they had antid-depressants, we would not.

even have Shakespeare. >> That is it right there. We wouldn't have. Van Gogh, Shakespeare. We wouldn't have. We wouldn't have beautiful art music. We. We wouldn't have creative human. expression. >> Yeah. He'd have been like, "Give me. liberty or give me uh. >> lithium.". >> Yeah. >> Oh, man. I was on lithium. That that out. of all the drugs that was Oh, yeah. So, it totally. >> messed up my thyroid. I I reversed it. when I got off everything. But but to. we're medicalizing. So this this. threepart misunderstanding that our.

culture is having and this is what. >> Bobby Kennedy is addressing at HHS right. now and which is really exciting to me. and this is what I think our culture is. waking up to. We're medicalizing. problems that aren't medical. We are. >> when we say we who do you mean though? your average teenage girl who's like. convinced she has an incurable brain. disease, you know, cuz she's feels. insecure and she's, you know, ner, >> right? Just cuz you're having adolescent. feelings or things that are part of just. adolescence and of being human. We've.

we've taken just things that are part of. being human and made them into uh. >> quote unquote symptoms to treat. >> symptoms to be treated. Okay? And don't. get me wrong, there can be like you can. have you can have a brain tumor that's. making you hallucinate and like you can. have an actual physiological problem, but you would go to a neurologist. and get the tumor treated. You wouldn't. be told you have an incurable mental. illness, >> right? And some people may have some. severe mental illnesses. I'm not talking. about that. You know what I'm saying? If. you're out there [ __ ] eating radio. parts and [ __ ] like you might have.

something going on or if something. really traumatic has happened, you could. have some PTSD. I mean, I'm not a. doctor. I'm not saying any of that. We're just saying that there's been an. overabundance, even if you look at the. numbers, there's been an overabundance. of things that are normal human feelings. that have now been um medicinalized. >> I want to. to what you just said though, I even in. those cases that you think of as the. most extreme, like the guy who's talking. to himself on the subway with his pants.

falling off, like. I'm I'm thinking about a guy I knew. He. lived in a group home that I used to. work in years ago. Um, you know, he'd. been living in group homes for decades. He was on tons of psych meds. He talked. to himself all the time. He heard. voices. He was, if you had him, you. know, he couldn't live independently. He. was what any average person would call. like a chronic mental patient. Like he. wasn't allowed to be around knives, all. that stuff. One day I was sitting with. him on this like stinky old fake leather.

sofa in this like ratty group home he. lived in. And I was like, I don't want. to say his name. I'll make up a name. I. like, "Hey, Bill." I was like, "What how. did you ever start medications? Like, what was happening at the very beginning. when you first went to a doctor?" And he. was like, "Oh, I was I was 15 or 16 and. I'd smoked some grass that got me really. scared." He was in his 50s when I was. talking to him. And and I I saw ants. coming out of the television and I told.

my parents and they took me to Waltham. State and Waltham State Hospital was a. state hospital in Massachusetts. They. admitted this teenager on an adult ward, loaded him up on antisychotics. and the rest is history. Decades later, he looks to your, you know, if you saw. him on the street, you he had crazy hair. everywhere. He was disheveled. And I can't help but wonder if you. actually go back to the beginning for. every person you see on the subway on.

the street corner who you think in your. mind like this person has severe mental. illness quote unquote. If you go back to. the beginning of their story, something. happened to them at the very beginning. and they either didn't get their needs. met or they were given something that. they shouldn't have had and then just. systemic year after year after year of. not getting what they actually needed. and getting a lot of what they didn't. need. Who wouldn't be. >> oh. >> that scary guy on the street corner, you. know? >> Yeah. You'd be out there pleading in. whatever words you have left inside of.

you and whatever organizational. abilities you have left, you'd be out. there trying to show people something is. wrong here. >> Yep. >> And it it's like. >> Yeah. So I think we have this this this. view we have that seriously suffering. people are sick quote unquote is a. deeply ingrained story that is just one. story. There are multiple ways to see. people who are in deep crisis. >> Yeah. And that kid could have just have. been high and was telling his parents. something that he thought when he was. really high.

>> He literally was and the rest is. history. 40 years later he's a chronic. mental patient who like talks to. himself. he wasn't talking to himself. prior to smoking the bad grass. And you. know, you might have a doctor say, "Oh, that triggered an underlying mental. illness like or it was a bad reaction to. pot.". >> Yeah. >> Um. >> which we've been there. Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. And so as. >> Oh, I locked my coworker in the freezer. and called the police on him. >> You did? >> Yeah. >> What did you think he was going to do? Like what what what was happening in. your head that made you do that? I. thought uh well we had smoked some weed.

together and we was working at a gas. station together and I thought that he. had uh set me up and was going to do. something bad to me. >> I always got paranoid when I smoked. pots. >> So I tricked him to go in there and then. I called the police on him. >> Was he Was he so cold when they came? >> Yeah, he was cold but whatever. He was. fine. He's a little thick but he'll be. all right. He's still all right. Shout. out Andrew. Shout out Andrew. Or my bad, bro. My bad. Still still my bad. But but. so so we have this crisis where we're. medicalizing problems that aren't.

medical. >> Okay, that's number one. >> Number two, I think what's also creating. this massive misunderstanding is that. long-term use of these medications is. not actually evidence based. If you. actually look at what evidence does. exist and you factor in how corrupt the. evidence base is. So we are often times. confusing adverse effects of medications. for a worsening of the condition. So the. very thing that happened to me, I kept.

getting worse and worse and worse and. everyone saw that as your illness is. progressing now you have treatment. resistant mental illness. No one ever. said maybe these five meds you're on are. [ __ ] you up a bit. Like no one ever. said that. So that's number two. We are. oftentimes misunderstanding. that the worsening that people have on. meds might actually be the meds, not an. illness. And then number three, >> wow, >> we are mistaking. what happens when you stop your meds for.

relapse when it's actually withdrawal. like we were talking about before. So. you get off your med, you feel horrible. You are told you need to get back on. See how horrible you feel? You get back. on, you feel better. You think, "Oh, wow. My medication is helping me. I'm. going to stay on it forever. You don't. realize, no, actually, I was in. withdrawal and I got out of withdrawal. when I went back on it. So, I think that. part of this crisis that we're in, I. truly think is tied into these three. misunderstandings. But that's changing. Like, I really. think we're waking up to the realization.

that. this isn't working here. This mental. health industry isn't helping us in the. way that. we want it to and it wants to. Um, and. maybe it's because we're looking at this. uh in a in a distorted u misunderstood. way. So, yeah. And that and the work of. of InterMass Initiative, which is the. nonprofit I started a number of years. back, is all about we're not. anti-medication. We're not telling. people to stop their meds. We're not.

shaming people for whom meds are. helpful. What we provide is. comprehensive information and resources. so that people can make true choices for. themselves, >> especially around tapering off safely if. that's what they decide to do. >> Yeah, it's got you have to have some. support in it. You know, I thought even. that I had a good strategy, a good plan, I was taking good medicines along with. it, like some functional health choices, but I just wasn't I didn't do um Yeah, I.

I didn't I didn't do it well enough. Well, you did the best you could with. the information you had, just like I. did, just like millions and millions of. people who try to get off their meds do. because you you didn't have of course. you made the choice that you made to. come off in the way that you did because. no one gave you information otherwise. And that's what we're we're working hard. to change. And I think it is changing. And what's beautiful about tapering is. that it's open source. Like we have a. free step-by-step tapering manual on our. website. You do? >> Oh, yeah. that I we published it eight.

years ago, been sitting for free on the. internet. We don't market it well, which. is not great, but it's basically the. protocol that psychiatrists like Mark. Horowitz are now incredibly like getting. into the c into the clinical world. >> What is the practice for tapering off of. uh antid-depressants or off of. psychiatric meds? >> Yeah. Well, so the number one most. important, you know, piece of it is that. >> and this is not doctor's advice also. want you to know. We're not and we're. not telling people to do this, but the.

key the key thing is that it should be. based on how you're feeling. So, everyone's different. There's not like, oh, this is the protocol. Go follow it. Good luck. Depending on each person's. individual physiology and all of that, it's going to look different for. everyone. But the the basic underlying. philosophy is what we we found in the. lay person withdrawal community is that. tapering between 5 to 10% per month of. your dose. So let's say you're on 100. milligrams of cerakquil and you want to.

taper 10%. You want to see how that goes. for you. You cut. So you would cut 10%. of 100 in month one which is 10. milligrams. So you cut to 90 for the. first month. Then in month two you cut. 10% of 90. So you cut 9 milligrams. So. now you're down to 81. In month three. you cut 8.1 milligrams. And you might be. wondering like how the heck do you do. 8.1? And that's where it gets tricky. because drug companies aren't required.

by law to manufacture psych drugs in. taper friendly forms and formulations. They're not. >> No. >> And I and I that may change under. Secretary Kennedy. I hope it does. Um, but it right now people have no choice. but to like make their own liquid. mixtures and use slip tip syringes and. do this wacky stuff at home because they. can't unless you go to a compounding. pharmacy which is expensive and you need. a psychiatrist who agrees to do it. It's. there's no way to make make 8.1.

>> Yeah. Well, I'm I'm even splitting my. pill just like this like any lay person. >> I have to. >> just splitting it with my thumbs putting. my thumbs in the middle of the pill. Both thumbs the thumbnails. >> Oh my gosh, Theo. I want to like nerd. out with you on this because that's. that's not a reliable way to make. >> I know it isn't. Trust me. >> So So you're on you're on a 10. Is that. right? >> I'm on a 10 milligram. >> And it's that little white brown tablet. I remember it well. I was on it for a. long time. Um so someone in your. situation has a few options. You could.

either go to a compounding pharmacy and. have them um you know make a if if you. were going to cut one milligram make you. a 9 milligram tablet which you could do. but you know then you have to keep. getting new prescriptions all the time. each month but you could do that. You. could get the liquid from the. manufacturer which does come as a. liquid. >> Okay. And let let me let me just say. really quick um that I wasn't aware that. when you're getting off. antid-depressants that some of them uh. you can get them in a liquid form so.

that when you're titrating off um you. have the access to uh be able to measure. kind of smaller and smaller amounts. Um. okay, just wanted to say that. >> Yeah, but it's not um some people have a. hard time switching and there all kinds. of weird fillers and preservatives. What a lot of people in a situation like. yours do is they, and this is not me. telling people to do this. This is just. describing the reality of what people. do. Like hundreds of thousands of people. around the world are doing this. They. have no choice but to do this. They put.

their tablet in a a measured glass of. water. So you kind of figure out the. ratio of I'm putting 10 milligrams of my. tablet into x number of milliliters of. water. They break it down in the water. They stir it up and make it a suspension. and then they remove 10% of the water. and then they drink it. >> Oh, and that's how they start to titrate. down. >> That's and and it shouldn't have to be. this way, but that's how it has had to.

be for the for decades, >> right? Because the medical industry is. not offering a solution. >> Yeah. They're not incentivized to get. you off their products. >> Yeah. Which is kind of crazy. And. sometimes it's like I put like sometimes. I think I've just kind of put these. feelings that I had 20 years ago that I. just kept kicked them down the road 20. years, you know? >> Oh my gosh. >> So that's one of the craziest things too. is sometimes I'm like why do I still. have these old feelings? It's just. because I keep just duct taping them. down with these uh anti-depressants. Now.

that's not scientific. That's just me. sharing how I feel. Um, and we're not. off we're not saying that we're just. we're stating that that's what the state. of medicine is right now is that people. are having to figure [ __ ] out for. themselves because uh it's gotten so uh. confusing out there and so unhelpful out. there for people that want to um be away. from some of these uh what feels a lot. of times like a sentence. >> It totally does. it. This is a perfect. way to put it. And I think what you just.

said is so powerful and like it doesn't. need to be scientific for it to be valid. and true and and meaningful. Like this. idea, this gets back to the. medicalization crisis that we're in. We. live in this world where if it isn't. scientific and medical, it's not. legitimate. If it isn't, you know, clinical research, it's useless data. I. can tell you right now that there are. tens upon tens if not hundreds of. thousands of data points out there in. the lay person i.e. the patient and.

expatient community online. of data points of like very valid. information about how to safely taper. We are it's all out there for free on. the internet and until now the medical. industry hasn't considered it legitimate. because it's not researched. But I think. returning to there's so many other. knowledge comes from all kinds of. sources and it and can be valid from all. kinds of sources. This idea that. anecdotal information is invalid is.

preposterous to me. Like your experience. is is is. the most important thing for you. Like. my what I went through, no one knows me. better than I know myself. No one. I. don't care how many degrees they have. after their name. No one could possibly. understand what's happening inside of me. better than me. >> Yeah. I'm a [ __ ] researcher, dude. >> Totally. >> People are like, "Oh, well, you're not a. scientist." Whatever. But it's so much. of science is so compromised. So many. things are so compromised. There's It's.

like the last It's like you need. somebody just to wander in the woods and. come out and tell you what they saw, right? And I'm not saying I'm that guy. I'm saying we're all that person for. ourselves for sure. And then and then. individually we all have to be that. person um more than ever these days as. information gets owned and compromised. and um. >> surveiled and. >> and surveiled and. >> censored and altered. Oh, totally. >> It's like the last thing we have is our. voice is the voice of someone who's had.

an experience and then you trust for. yourself. Do you believe their. experience? Do you not? And that's like. that's what we have. That's all we've. really ever had in a lot of ways. Um, but yeah, I think that I think a lot of. people are like uh a lot of people that. want to get off medication, they don't. know what to do. And a lot of a lot of. times we just say we throw our hands up. at it. Um, I've tried like four times. >> Oh my gosh. Well, I if I can if I can be. like a buddy to you in this because you. need you need friends who've who and.

fellows who've walked the path. >> That's what I was going to ask you. It's. like the 12step world like having mutual. aid, having so part of our nonprofit. besides providing all kinds of. information and resources, we have a. community too where people who've been. through it themselves are all they're. supporting one another. They're. >> there is a community there. >> Oh yeah, totally. Cuz what. >> where are you finding that community? Just online. >> Our n well our nonprofit has one, but. they're all over Facebook. Um there. especially now I mean back in 2010 I was. I was like one of three people on the. internet who was talking about getting.

off psych drugs like no one was talking. about this back then but in forums like. kind of weird reddity kinds of secret. forums tons of people were messaging. each other but it wasn't like visible on. the internet. Now there are hundreds of. Facebook groups. >> people helping each other for each. specific drug. Like you could totally. Google escatalopram withdrawal support. and you'll probably find like five. groups with 10,000 people each in them. >> Yeah. I think part of me I tried a. little bit too much to just do it. myself. I think uh.

>> yeah you need that you need but you. definitely because having friends who've. been through it not only helps you like. get information that maybe you didn't. have before but it also helps you stay. connected to hope like when you're in a. really bad patch if that ends up. happening in the withdrawal process. It's like having someone who's been. there, done that, they're five years. down the road than you'd be like, I see. you. You've got this. Like you will, there is a through here. Like just keep. putting one foot in front of the next. Like you need that hope and you also.

need the validation of like, oh gosh, I. wish you know I'd been able to be there. for you like in that when you were in. six weeks in and suddenly things got. really weird and wacky and you're like. what's happening to me? to have people. who are like, I've seen that. 1500 times. What you're describing is. not unusual. This is totally six weeks, >> right? It changes the way you changes. your perspective. It helps your. perspective. >> So, what what suggestion would you give. somebody who right now who's thinking.

that I would like to try to get off of. antid-depressants? Um, and again, we're. not doctors. So, I'm not a doctor. >> I'm not a doctor. I'm I'm an ex-patient. That's my resume. There you go. Totally. I'm a I'm a someone who's tried to get. off antid-depressants a lot or five. times but hasn't uh been successful yet. >> yet. Yeah, totally. And if if you're I. mean what I would say is this is only. each person him or herself is the only. person who should make this decision. Like I sometimes people really think I'm. telling them to come off because I'm.

talking about withdrawal. I'm like I. have no idea what's best for you. You're. the only person who knows what's best. for you. But if you are someone who in. your heart of hearts your instinct is. telling you I need to give to see what. life is like off the stuff or like I. don't like this adverse effect or I want. to have a baby in a few years or. whatever it is. It starts with getting. informed. Check out our website inter. theccompass.org. There's tons of. information all over the internet on. physical dependence like understanding. how these drugs change our our brains.

and bodies, how to taper slowly and. safely. understanding the evidence base that. these drug your drug was approved on the. basis of like you need all this. information to help you think clearly. about what the next right step is. So. get informed. Um once you're informed, take a look at your life circumstances. Is this the right time or do I have too. much stress going on? Am I in a divorce? Am I about to move? Do I have a lot of. work stress going on? Like if you can. find a time where as many stressors as. possible are removed. Um, number three,

communicate with your doctor. Ideally, if you can get them on board, that's. great. A lot of people don't have the. support of their doctors, unfortunately. I hope that changes. But if you can help. your doctor. um feel confident in supporting you by. showing them you're prepared and you. know what you're talking about here with. how to taper safely. Having having their. support and partnership, you know, as. your especially because you need your. prescriptions written differently when.

you're tapering. That's really. important. Building out a support. system, family, friends, fellow. withdrawal people, mutual aid, as much. support as you can build. >> Yeah. or your withdrawers. Some people. call them withdrawers. >> I love that. That's so great. Yeah, >> I just made that up. I don't know if. it's great or not. It seems uh it's a. little cringy, but it's also. >> And it is you need you are like every. single person who's. >> is a warrior who's. >> this [ __ ] was wild, bro. I'll say the. last time I done it, it was it was I was. surprised.

>> Well, I remember I remember Can Can I. ask you about that? Yeah, >> I know. I remember I don't know if it's. I remember it was last was it last fall. you had and you talked about how hard it. was and how you went back. >> probably the previous time that I went. back on. So this was just recent. I just. got back on like two weeks ago. >> Oh, it was that recently. Okay. Um and. and since you've gone back on, does it. feel do you feel. >> I feel safer? >> Yeah. >> I just feel like uh you know like you're. playing freeze tag or whatever and. you're off a bass, you can get tagged, >> but it's like I feel like I got back.

back on base. So, it's like I feel like. I have my foot on like a base, you know? So, it's like, but I'll get back out. there. You know what I'm saying? >> Oh, you totally will. You'll know when. the time is right. And yeah, all those. things I I said are important. And then. also just the lifestyle piece, like it's. it's, you know, it sounds. obvious, but just the food you're. putting in your body is going to shape. how this experience goes for you. And. ensuring you're eating, you know, healthy fat and gut friendly food. If. maybe you already knew this, but 95% of.

our serotonin receptors are in the gut. So like we have this idea that you know. Lexapros like just targeting serotonin. receptors in our brain. No, it's like. it's influencing the entire body, especially the gut. >> Yeah. I had started buying um they got a. little deal over here on the corner. where they're selling um. you know, previously used cabbage or. whatever it's called. What is it called? >> Oh, you sauerkraut. >> Sauerkraut. That's what I'm talking about. Or. whatever it is. >> Fermented cabbage. Yeah, I.

like to call it somebody else's cabbage. That's what it seems like. But yeah, I. was eating that. I had a I had a good. basket, you know, a couple good jars of. that. >> So, I had like a strategy, but it just I. didn't have the right strategy. So, next. time I'll get a different one. >> Well, the taper speed really is. everything. Like, how you're actually. making the reductions is everything. And. that's the beautiful thing is that. that's all for free online right now. You don't need some special medical. expert to tell you how to do it. You can.

figure it out for yourself online. Um. >> Amen. Um Laura, thanks so much for. joining us today and chatting. >> Oh, I'm so happy to be here. >> I really appreciate it. I uh I' I've. heard you mention a few times uh RFK Jr. during this chat. Um and I know that you. were working with the Maha Institute, right? And that was this past May. What. were you guys doing together? take me. through that and take me through what. what is he doing or what is his movement. doing right now for uh mental health? >> Yeah. Well, I mean, Secretary Kenny's.

long been aware of and and engaged with. this crisis we've been talking about. here. He he he's long seen that we have. so many millions of people on long-term. meds with no off-ramps and all of that. So when he was confirmed as HHS. secretary and. you know my husband Cooper and I who we. worked together in her compass. initiative we we saw him talking about. it you know at his at his confirmation.

hearing and and around that time we. realized in this like very it was it. just felt very surreal because we'd been. operating under the assumption for for. me like for six 15 years at the time the. government's never going to be a partner. in this like we just have to work on. building stuff outside and like. >> I think yeah, we're all realizing that. on every facet of fields. >> Totally. So, I've just been solely in. that headsp space through my career and. I still think that's like the most. essential work to do is like building. new things outside of the system so to.

speak. But when when Bobby came in, you. know, we realized like, wow, this is actually a surreal opportunity. to to partner with the federal. government to support them, to assist. their efforts, to actually try to get. policy changes around um this. overmedicalization crisis as they're. calling it, and like how to help people. who have decided for themselves that. they want to taper off, how to help them. do it safely. >> What policy changes would actually help?

Well, what Kennedy announced on May 4th. at this event that we organized with the. Maha Institute. Yeah, here it is right. here. So, he he laid out this plan. >> The US Department of Health and Human. Services on a May 4th, 2026 announced. efforts to curb psychiatric. overprescribing um at a MA summit on. mental health and overmedicalization. As. the closing speaker, Secretary Kennedy. uh Junior laid out a new action plan to. promote appropriate psychiatric. prescribing and drive deprescribing when. clinically indicated. Today, we take. clear and a decisive action to confront.

our nation's mental health crisis by. addressing the overuse of psychiatric. medications, especially among children. What is actually happening here, do you. find, or is this just like um is this. just talk? Is this just rhetoric? >> No. Well, he announced a few specific um. next steps that HHS. has set out to undertake. >> Okay. We will support patient autonomy, require informed consent and shared. decision-making, and shift the standard. of care toward prevention, transparency,

and a more holistic approach to mental. health. >> There should be more. or I don't know if. it's on another page, but there should. be more like an actual breakdown of I. mean the announcements he made were. around. um. developing guidelines for for um SSRI. tabing. Uh training clinicians in how to. do it safely. um uh enabling through. insurance that deep the the coverage of. deprescribing so that doctors.

prescribers can get paid to deprescribe. through billing codes and all that. >> Amen. >> Um and I think you know getting um uh. federally funded health centers equipped. to support people in deprescribing. So. he there are tangible um policy next. steps that HHS. >> is is aiming towards has committed to. work work towards and I think that. >> which really is surreal like I I never. thought this would be a possibility that. I think in combination with this.

cultural. >> awakening um I think leaves me feeling. really hopeful that substantive. change can happen and of course his. announcements led to all kinds of media. headlines, you know, Kennedy's going to. ban SSRI and they're going to deny. access and remove from the market and. yada yada yada. None of that is true. None of what HHS has set out to do is. about removing, banning, denying access.

It's literally about creating more. options. >> I mean, 90% of the media is owned by the. same groups. So, I'm not surprised. probably I'm probably I'm not surprised. that Bear Bear Monsanto doesn't own half. of the media or you know it's all it's. all a shell game. Um right here it says. the changes new training reimbursement. mechanisms and clinical guidelines nudge. clinicians to help patients getting off. medications and to consider. non-farmaceutical interventions like. therapy, nutrition, and exercise. Psychiatric medications have a role in.

care, but we will no longer treat them. as the default. We will treat them as. one option to be used when appropriate. with full transparency and with a clear. path off when they're no longer needed. Amen to that, man. I've known Bobby for. a while. I've always believed that his. heart is in the best spot. And I don't. know what it's like when you take your. heart into a. [ __ ] den of spiders. But I um but I love this idea because. uh oh, it says, "Let me be clear. If. you're taking psychiatric medication, we.

are not telling you to stop." Mr. Kennedy said, "We are making sure you. and your clinician have the information. and support to make the right decision. for you.". >> Exactly. >> Agreed. Because here's the thing. Imagine you get onto a on an on-ramp. onto an onto a highway and you can never. get off of it. Y. >> and here's the option you do have. You. can pull your car over and park and get. out and walk. You're still on the. [ __ ] highway, though. And now you. just don't have the vehicle you were in. That's what it feels like a lot of. times. >> That's even worse. It's the only option. people have now is to open their door. and jump out while their car is going 80.

mph. aka cold turkey withdrawal. Like. >> I mean, but that's a but so yes, there. should be a way to get off of these. I I. I mean, I applaud that um you guys are. doing this work and the fact that it has. to come from just a lay person trying to. figure it out, you know, that it's come. from like it's a conspiracy theory. almost to trying to get off your. medicine. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> what is your life like now? Uh what is. your medical regimen like now? And um. how do you how are you feeling these.

days? >> Um well I don't have a medical regimen. Um. >> really. >> yeah I mean I haven't it's been a while. since I've been to a doctor and and for. me and when it comes. >> I don't blame you first of all. >> I just find for for me you know God. bless the emergency room if I break a. bone or I have some kind of you know. horrible medical crisis of some kind. But I, you know, I grew up just thinking. that the best way to care for myself was.

to see doctors. Like, and I think a lot. of, especially the generations above us, like I'm elder millennial. You're like a. young a young and Gen Xer, right? So, I. think we you're. >> semi- neighbors or whatever. >> Totally. So, the generation above us. especially, you know, this idea that I'm. taking good care of myself. I'm going to. all my checkups and wellness visits, this, that, and people just have this. idea that like that's how you take care. of yourself. There for some people, sure. that may be true, but there's so many. other ways to care for oneself. And for. me, my own philosophy for how I care for.

my body is how did my huntergatherer. ancestors live? And how can I get as. close to that as possible in this modern. industrial era that I'm in? Because we. haven't evolved for we haven't evolved. for all this bright lights, all these. screens, all this factory food. like our. bodies have not evolved for this. And. so, >> oh yeah, in the timeline of history, if. you were to look at history as like a. 24-hour clock, um, human beings, I.

guess, have been here for like since. 11:59 p.m. >> Oh my gosh. I'm Is that right? I'm sure. it's something like that. >> If if the 13.8 billion year age of the. universe were condensed into a single. 24-hour day, humanity has been around. for less than the final two seconds. before midnight. I wonder if can you is. there a way to to calculate in the scale. of human as long as humans have existed. how much on the clock would like. industrial the kind of industrial era be.

um. >> if the entire existence of modern humans. were condensed into a single 24-hour day. the industrial era would be less than 2. minutes at the very end of the night. Wow. >> Which which is profound when you think. about it like we have not evolved for. the the world that we live in. It has. escalated so rapidly. >> Yeah. We were so quickly ago we were. basically raccoons. >> Totally. Totally. Women were birthing at river. river sides and in bushes and and now. it's going to happen again just cuz our. health care system's so bad. So, oddly. enough, we are making our way back.

because of corporate greed. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. >> Full circle. Full circle. But I think I. keep that in my mind like and and oh. yeah, you know, people often ask me. like, "So now everything's great. Is. that is that right?" Right? Like, so you. you don't have you never had you don't. have bipolar. You never have. everything's happy. You're good now. And. I always have to say like, no, no, no. I'm still the same me. I'm still the. same dark comp, you know, kind of. complex, slightly paranoid me that I've always.

been just because of the, you know, the. way I grew up. And I'm not happy and. balanced and put together and high. functioning all the time. The main. difference is that I'm not afraid of my. emotional pain anymore. I don't view it. as a problem to fix. I view it as a. signal and a message to listen to. Like, what is my anxiety telling me about my. life? What is my despair telling me. about my life? And sometimes it's as. obvious as like, I literally haven't. been outside today. I've been on my. computer. I like need sunlight and to.

get off this screen that's messing up my. body. But sometimes like there isn't a. clear reason. It's just like thinking. about how many potentially millions of. people out there have stories like yours. and mine where we were sensitive, like. alive, vital young people who had things. happen in our lives that left us. hurting. And here we are. Here you are.

20 plus years later. You know, here I am. dig after digging myself out of this. like neardeath like experience. >> Yeah, you [ __ ] went through it. >> How many millions of people are having a. similar experience and don't even. realize it, you know? >> Oh, yeah. I I I mean I also I noticed. this for sure about myself. I was hyper. sensitive for sure. So being hyper. sensitive and hyper aware I mean you're. basically a you know you're a mouse. I'm. a rat but you're a mouse. You know, I'm.

not like a rat like in prison like a. snitch or whatever, but I'm just a rat. >> Rats are very smart and cute. When I. lived in in Boston, I used to go in the. back alley and save the baby blind rats. that were wandering around. >> You were doing You were on dot, so let's. be honest. >> I was on a lot of meds, but I actually. still would do the same thing. I love. animals. But no, I think. >> we're all m Well, yeah, our whole group. is we're all rats. >> I think all human beings are born this. way. Like I think we are born as. sensitive. like can I can I read you maybe this is.

a way to tie it all together. Can I read. you the LA this is it's like a paragraph. two paragraphs. >> Um I have to see if I can find it in my. book here. Um it just it ties in. So. this is towards the end of. >> my book. >> It's just a paragraph. >> Okay, take your time with it. What will. it take for our society to begin. questioning the collective assumption. that the industries that have made. trillions off our worsening pain, among. them health, hospital, pharmaceutical,

biotech, and tech, are the very ones we. should trust to provide us resolution. Two things are undeniably true about our. society today. We're growing ever more. unwell in mind, body, and spirit. And. the business of health is thriving. Industry has subjugated the natural. world around us through commodification. and prophetization. What's left for it to conquer is the. space between our ears. It is now a.

radical act in our medicalized, professionalized world to look in the. mirror for answers and to turn to your. neighbor in times of difficulty and to. open your door to them in return. Or if. you don't yet know the person who's. living life next to you, to bring a pot. of homemade soup over and introduce. yourself. For thousands of years, we. wrote poems and plays and made music and. comedy and art out of our suffering that. we shared with one another in community. Today we take it to a doctor and the.

pharmacy under the false premise that it. can and must be obliterated. >> Yeah. I think one day a smile will be in. like a museum somewhere, >> you know, and people are like, can you. believe that people's used that the. edges of their mouths used to turn up. when they used to feel something? >> Oh, >> that was all the people cared about. >> Blasphemy. Uh, thank you, Lord. That's beautiful. And thank you for um yeah, thanks for. caring. Thanks for sharing what your. journey has been like. Um thank you.

>> Well, thank thank you also for sharing. your journey with so like people the. more we share our own stories, especially like the vulnerable parts of. what we go through, I think the more it. helps other people realize that the. struggles they've had are not. meaningless or wasted or you know that. they have value. Like I I often say to. me the suffering that I went through. when I realized it was actually medicine.

for someone else. And like this gets to. the 12step, you know, the whole ethos of. the 12step world, like you take your own. pain and you get out of yourself and you. use it in service to other people. >> Um, >> amen. >> I think we've so many people don't grow. up with that opportunity. And it's free. and it's available to all of us at all. times. It's not easy to be with your. pain and to share it with with people. Um, but it's medicine. It really is. >> Yeah. My friend James Basher always. says, "We are the keys to each other's.

locks." That's what he says. >> That's beautiful. >> It's a nice statement. Um, >> that's beautiful. >> And he he's like a damn janitor, man. He. is like just he's a keychain of keys. That guy. He really is. >> amazing. >> Um, >> for a suggestion for parents who have a. child that was like you, right? like. what suggestion do you give to parents. who have a child that um is going. through some things that seem like uh. mental that seem emotional um that. they're that they're saying okay let's. take them to talk with someone what uh.

with a therapist or with a psychiatrist. or with a um. >> LHC. licensed mental health counselor. >> yes. >> or someone like that what uh what. suggestions do you offer to them. >> I mean I think the most important one is. never Let someone with letters after. their name convince you they know your. kid better than you. Like as a parent, no one knows your child better than you. Your parental instincts cannot and. should not be be violated. And I think.

that I think it's what happened to my my. parents and to so many parents. When. you're when your kid is struggling and. you're terrified and you're in so much. pain watching them in pain and you're. confused, you're at a very susceptible. moment in, you know, in in in your life. as as a parent and and well-meaning. because I want to be clear, these aren't. like bad people. Do mental health. professionals are not bad people. They. came to this work because they want to. help. So, want to be clear about that.

But I think parents often end up. disconnecting from their instincts about. their kids because they believe that. expertise comes from the institution. Like I'm I'm not a trained professional. I don't know what to do here. As a. parent, you have deep deep wisdom. Um. that doesn't mean you can just figure it. out alone. Of course, support is is. necessary, but I think just keeping that. in mind and not never losing touch with. that through whatever lies ahead is is.

really important. I think another thing. that parents often get um kind of. trained to to do is to see their kid. from this perspective of like something. is wrong with my kid. like my kid has a. problem to fix as opposed to seeing. their kid as from the question from the. place of what is happening to my kid or. what is happening around my kid in their. environment or what is happening you.

know in my kid's body what they're. eating or like what they're watching on. like the screen exposure whatever it. might be. So, if parents can kind of. stay connected to a kind of curiosity of. like some there's a reason why my kid is. having a hard time and it isn't because. their brain is broken. It's it it might. not be clear what the reason is, but to. just be curious and to remember that. they're having a response to the life. they're in. >> Um, >> I think that's really critical. And then.

I think getting support from other. parents. I think in the same spirit that. we were talking about before, the 12step. world, the mutual aid world of. withdrawal, parents finding one another. in their own communities and supporting. one another and like mentoring one. another, I think is a really um it used. to be how it was. We all lived in little. villages together and. >> yeah, there was community. >> Totally. >> Community is so important. It's like if. your grandmother's around watching your. children or if your families live close. to each other, then other family members. are involved. >> Like human beings evolve that way. like. we said until 2 minutes ago in the homo.

sapiens history like that was how we. lived. >> and so just keeping. >> here we are in this outlier we're we are. like an astronaut right now. >> seriously. >> so far away from uh what we're supposed. to be like the umbilical cord is. stretched yo. >> do you know that I when I gave birth at. home uh we my husband and I we waited. hours before we separated the umbilical. cord from my placenta I'm going to go. there with you right now and we burned. it. We didn't cut it.

>> Did y'all smoke it? >> No, but we did freeze my placenta. But. my husband, I asked him to chop it up. into pieces because this is like a whole. in the kind of home birth world. A lot. of women will be like cuz mammals, female mammals will often eat their own. placenta after they give birth. There's. a lot of. >> Some of them are also perverts as well. >> Probably. >> Dolphins are. >> probably, but go on. But yeah, Cooper. chopped up my placenta for me cuz I was. thinking maybe if I want to do this down. the line, I'll put it in a smoothie or.

something. But then he put all the. pieces in a big mass in our freezer. >> It's almost 6 years later it's still in. there. >> No, it's still in there. >> And then when we tried. >> I'll buy a couple grams of it. >> When we tried to burn the umbilical. cord, like our son was, you know, breastfeeding like the placenta's in a. ste stainless steel bowl that Cooper's. holding. We have this candle. were. trying to burn it and we didn't think. about we would know that it's smoky. It. got smoky and we were like, "Oh, please. fire alarm. Don't go off.". >> Yeah. Like it's like grilling kind of a. meat sort of. It's tripe kind of or.

something. >> Yes, that's what it is, >> dude. People Yeah. People act like. >> pig intestine. >> It's what? >> Pig intestine kind of. >> Well, I mean, yeah. People act like it's. kind of like a magical deal. Now, I. think if you chop it up and smoke a. little bowl of it with your husband or. with your stepdad or whatever, that. shit's kind of That shit's wild. I bet. you've never talked about this on your. pod before. >> No, I haven't. Dude, that's it's [ __ ]. bizarre. I'm just trying to pretend like. it's normal [ __ ]. >> But it's. >> But this is what life is about. Just. being your authentic full self. >> Oh, dude. If I had like seven pounds of.

placenta right now, I would definitely. dry one out and smoke it with my boys or. whatever. I don't think that counts as a. relapse. >> Probably sell it for something. >> Oh, you could trade it right now to one. of our politicians for something good. Probably for a favor. Um. what uh I did want to ask. >> anyho. >> Yeah. Anywho. Um okay. So that is the first one. Um. did you have any other uh suggestions.

for parents? >> I think you know just taking all the. time you can to get informed. You know, if you are taking your kid to a mental. health professional of some kind and. your kid is being given a diagnosis and. or you know, being put on a medication. of some kind, just knowing that. you have it's your right to take. whatever time you need to look into. what's being offered to you. like the. the the just because the doctor is. saying something and telling you to do.

something, you know, doesn't mean you. shouldn't take whatever time you need to. first get educated. You know, my parents. were never told, "We're giving your. daughter this bipolar diagnosis despite. the fact that this is totally, you know, subjective. It's just my opinion based. on looking at her. It doesn't mean she. has anything wrong in her brain. I'm. going to put her on these meds, but just. so you know, we've only studied them for. a few weeks." They weren't told that. So, and the chances are your doctor. isn't going to tell you those things.

So, take whatever time you need to. inform yourself. Our our website has a. lot, but there's plenty other resources. out there, too. Um, and you can find. more resources at our website, too. >> And the website is. >> thempass.org. >> thempass.org. Um, do you do you hold uh did you hold a. resentment against your parents? >> Oh gosh, no. I mean, if I was in their. shoes, I would have done the same thing. They were they were terrified. Like I. was slicing my arms up and, you know, screaming and freaking out and they saw.

no other option. They saw no other. option. I I completely understand why. they made the choices that I made. I. mean, I wouldn't change a minute of. anything that happened to me. I don't. know if you feel the same way, but I. feel like every. every painful experience I went through. brought me to my purpose in life, which. is my this work, my writing, and this. nonprofit, and just. >> doing what I can to help inform policy.

um life. What I've realized is that the. objective to living isn't the absence of. pain. It's purpose. It's Yeah. >> finding meaning. It's connection to. yourself, to your body and your. instincts, to people around you, to. nature, to God, to to art. Like I mean I. can't I can I find I'm standup comedy to. me. >> is such. uh I can't imagine the courage it takes.

but I can I can imagine like if you're. tapped into your flow like the gift that. you have in this world to like take your. life experiences and turn them into art. for people and and to use your art to. draw attention. to the world around us. Like, what a. [ __ ] gift. And I imagine if you. hadn't had that horrible relationship. and whatever other painful experiences. you've been through in your life, like. you wouldn't be the comedian that you. are. Like, I feel the way about my that. way about my writing. Pain.

is what makes us fully human. >> I agree with that. I think it's like, yeah, having some fuel. It's kind of so. dark to know to like think that those. types of things are fuel, but it's also. a blessing to know that they're um that. they can turn around and be a fuel like. that. You know, >> that a worm can turn into a um. >> bird or whatever. No, what is it? Butterfly. >> Uh caterpillar. Caterpillar. >> Caterpillar.

>> Maybe there are some worms that turn. into stuff though. I don't know. But. >> yeah, >> I doubt it. But thanks for trying to. help me. and the and the whole analogy. of like the phoenix and the lotus like. the lotus these symbols that have these. ancient meanings in cultures around the. world. It's the it's the the burning of. the bird and they r it rises out of the. ash. It's the mud and the muck that this. beautiful flower grows out of. Like this. is not me being romantic and like. polyianaish or or being like everything.

happens for a reason. It's all great. is. it's just naming what it is to be alive. in this like crazy [ __ ] up world where. [ __ ] up things happen all the time. >> and we've gotten so used to them and. this isn't how it's supposed to be and. this is this is not how it's supposed to. be. We all feel that this is not how. it's supposed to be and we're all mildly. kind of pretending like this is how it's. supposed to be but I think we're just. sick of pretending. Y. >> um. >> and yeah, the pain that we think is a.

symptom of illness, so much of it is. >> it's like we're the canaries and those. of us who get labeled mentally ill often. are the canaries in the coal mine. Like. we're feeling we're sensing. like this is not okay people. >> Yeah. You're an astronaut. You're like. if you were in 2010 if you were thinking. about this stuff like and talking about. it, you were like an astronaut. You were. like feel Armstrong. you were out there. like just like an emotional person like. out in outer space trying to like have. some idea of what's going on like you.

know and we need the we need people to. be out there to be like the uh Paul. Ravier of something um and I think more. than ever in our world we need Paul reve. you know um but I want to say thank you. so much unshrunk that's the book you. gave me you gave me two months to read. it I love this very sense and sense. ability type of cover on it. Pride and. Prejudice energy up front. I like that a. lot. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Or what is that book called? Little.

Women. It has a very Little Women energy. on the front. I like that. >> Um, Unshrunk, a story of psychiatric. treatment and resistance. Uh, can I keep. this copy? >> Yeah. I want to write a message. >> Yeah. Thank you. That's very sweet of. you. Laura. >> Delano. >> Yes. >> Yep. And Cooper Delano. That's your. husband. >> Davis. >> Cooper Davis. He changed his name. What happened? >> He's He's untraditional. He kept his. name. >> He kept his name. Okay. Type [ __ ] Cool.

>> Um, tell him we said what's up. >> Oh, I will for sure. >> The inner compass initiative. Uh, you. can find them out at the. intercompass.org. Uh, helping you make more informed. choices about all things mental health, diagnosis, drugs, and drug withdrawal. Um, do you remember the day that you. felt you were free from medicine? Was. there one day or one thing that happened. that made you be like. >> I I I wouldn't say it was when I felt. free from medicine, but it was when I. felt free. I was I was probably two. years off meds still really struggling.

and I remember sitting on my couch just. so overwhelmed by like physical and. mental agitation. um it felt excruciating and I just. wanted to like rip my skin off or like. binge eat or just do something to get. relief to to fix the problem. And. something came over me as I was sitting. there and I realized they still own me. This this industry of mental health that. you know trains us to think that.

discomfort is a problem to fix. It still. owns me even though I've been off the. meds for a couple years now. And I said. I said freedom is is in this is where. freedom is. It's not in getting off the. meds. It's in how am I with this pain. So I just decided to sit there and I. just sat there. for like at first it was just 10 minutes. and I just sat I guess you could call it. meditation. At the time I wasn't like. I'm going to meditate. I was just like. out of almost outrage like I need to be.

with this because I've spent my entire. life thinking I can't and shouldn't be. with it. And I just sat there and I did. it. And 10 minutes later, I felt more. centered in myself. The pain wasn't. gone, but I was like, I [ __ ] did it. I'm powerful. And I just kept doing it. more and more until eventually I was. sitting for like an hour. And I would. just sit and my mind's going to all. kinds of crazy places, paranoid stuff. I'm It's not like this is this isn't. like peaceful, relaxing time. That was. when I realized I'm free.

>> Amen. Yeah. We we we were one of the. most powerful things that you know like. that God created and we outsource our. power all the time. >> I do it all the time. I outsource my. power. >> It's why we I named the nonprofit Inner. Compass Initiative because to me it's. about taking that back, reclaiming it. The the orientation you need to get you. through your life is in here. >> And who is Unrun for? Who would is. someone who's thinking about getting off. of medicine? Someone who's just curious. about your experience? anyone who is who.

is themselves engaged with the mental. health system in some way like in. therapy on meds or if if you have. someone you love who is and so it's a. big number but really I mean. >> no that's that's a that's not that huge. that's specific. >> but it's like. 60 to 75 million people. >> anyone if your life has been touched by. you know mental health mentalillness.

illness. Amen. >> It's a story to read. >> Yeah. >> Laura Delano, thank you so much for your. time today. I really appreciate it. >> Oh, Theo, it's so meaningful to be here. I'm so glad to to do this. >> Yeah, it's nice. I um Yeah, I'm hopeful. that I'll get off of off of. antid-epressants at some point. I just. have to It's almost like you went out on. the battlefield and you came back. >> Yeah. >> And so, you got to just. >> You're restocking your supplies, replenishing your reserves, >> and I'm here if I can help you. I really. mean it. like I nerd out on this stuff.

like I'm glad that anytime. >> I'm glad that I met you. I'm glad that. uh I'm going to sh just continue to just. kind of share whatever is going on as I. kind of navigate this and I'll see if I. can't do even a better job of it for. listeners that are curious about it or. other people that are curious about it, even my friends, you know. Um and yeah, I I I'm like yeah, I'm just happy that. we got to speak today and thank you so. much for spending time with us. >> Me, too. Thanks. Thanks for having me. >> You bet. on the breeze and I feel I'm falling. like these leaves. I must be corner.

stone. Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll. share this piece of mind. I can feel it. in my bones. But it's going to take.