P*rn Recovery Coach Steven Wolt | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #663

Today's guest is a certified coach and a. founder of Valor Recovery. Uh it's a recovery program that focuses. on porn addiction. Um pornography. addiction, uh intimacy disorders, commitment uh disorders, um a whole. gamut of stuff in there. There's a lot. of things when it comes to emotional. um connection. Uh he and I have known each other for. years. He's a dear friend of mine. Uh. he's been a mentor, he's been a guide. Um. And at times he's been a hero.

I'll say that. Uh this episode isn't really for. children. If you have children maybe in. the backseat or something, you know, it might I mean it might it's not. graphic, but it's just I don't know. Just, you know, I hope this episode. reaches who it reaches. I would like to. say that. I had a great chat today uh. with my guest and friend Mr. Steve Walt.

>> Thank you for having me, Chris. Hello. >> Yeah, love you too, bro. Been a long. time I've known you. >> I know, it has been a long time, man. Um. >> For some of you guys who don't know, today's uh guest is my friend Steve uh. Walt, who is who started a program. called Valor Recovery. And it's a. recovery uh program for men who have. suffered with pornography addiction. Is. that pretty much the safe way to say it, Steve? >> a good way to say it. >> Okay, cool. And thank you so much, dude. I love the work that you do. Thank you.

for like you know, uh you've been a. guiding light in my life and just a. partner in crime and, you know, in. positive crime. >> [laughter]. >> Uh and uh. And yeah, I just want to like we start. We met in recovery rooms, right? >> Yeah. Long time ago. >> Yeah. We met above the bank over there. We're going to recovery rooms in the. Palisades. >> Yeah. >> I didn't suffer from porn addiction, but. I did I have dealt with that like parts. of that and I have like uh. you know, I like intimacy disorder, like. commitment issues, that sort of thing,

you know? Um which those meetings cover. all of that. Your recovery started with drugs and. alcohols? >> It did. I mean, I was one of those kind. of men that kind of struggled with a a. lot of stuff. But, you know, as you look. back, I definitely think pornography was. the culprit. >> Really? >> Yeah, I do. You know, I think. pornography was this kind of gateway. drug that led me to a lot of dark. places. >> Yeah, I'd love to hear your experience, strength, and hope today. Just take us. kind of on your.

uh your journey. This is what people do. in meetings a lot. They'll share their. experience, strength, and hope. Um. and your um. journey with like intimacy, sex. addiction, porn- pornography addiction, etc. Is that okay to do? >> Yeah, it's great. And so, you know, I I. think it it started for me in the late. '90s. You know, I was living in New York. City, working in financial services, from all. outward appearances, like doing great in. life. You know, I remember moving kind of my. first nice apartment. And uh 32nd floor. of a building. I'd worked so hard for.

this, right? Like, my goodness. I was. >> A walk-up, no? >> No, >> [laughter]. >> wasn't a walk-up. 32 floors is a long. way to walk. Yeah, but what I do. remember within a few weeks is getting. the internet in my apartment for the. first time. Pretty cool, right? People could do. research, they could do a lot of things. with the internet. Like, not this guy. I. mean, >> [laughter]. >> I mean, I used the internet for porn. And so, really for the first time in my. life, I had like unlimited access to. pornography. And I'll tell you what,

when I watched porn, it lit me up like a. Christmas tree. When I watched porn, that fog of. depression that kind of hovered over me. much of my life lifted. >> Really? >> Yeah, 100%. >> I can kind of relate a little bit what. you're talking about. Like, there's. something else with it that feels very. addictive. >> Yeah, you know, there's a euphoria to. it. >> That's what I'm saying. >> I mean, it works just like worked just. like a drug for me. Right? That anxiety I felt, that. that kind of loneliness [clears throat]. that was so profound, vanished when I watched porn. So, you.

know, I watched porn to really numb. difficult emotions. >> Mhm. And it worked? >> It worked really, really well. >> And were you using it like Were I mean, were you just kind of like using it once. a day or was it like I mean, was there. an actual like heavy use of it or you. were it was just like this outlet that. was that you knew that was there? >> You know, it started off as an outlet, but then things started to change. You know, this is long before we had. cell phones that had pornography. So,

this is on a laptop in my home. And what I noticed was this progression. I started watching porn for longer. lengths of time. with more frequency. I kind of needed porn. You know, there were nights I'd be. watching porn. throughout most of the evening. >> What? >> It'd go for hours. >> Wow. >> And you know, I'd wake up or I'd come to. in the morning like disgusted with. myself. >> Oh, yeah. >> Disgusted. I'm never doing this again.

I would actually on multiple times, I. would get the laptop and I would throw. it down the garbage chute on the 32nd. floor in absolute disgust. But you know, a few days later I'd be. back in the computer store telling this. poor guy that I have I have a growing. business and we need more technology. Little did I know I just threw my. computer away cuz I couldn't stop. watching porn on it. >> [laughter]. >> The guy was like, "Dude, too bad they. don't have an Olympic event for guys who. are sick of watching porn on their. laptops. You That would be so much. further than discus, I think, you know?".

>> 100%. >> But dude, that's crazy. Imagine like. some guy is just like some little R2-D2. human and there is like what, another. one? >> Another one. Steve's got a very. successful business. He's hiring. He. needs a lot of He needs computers. >> [laughter]. >> Oh, dude, that's so crazy, dude. I do. remember like when I was a kid is it. okay if I interject here? >> Yeah, please. >> Yeah. Um and just to share, man, like I Yeah, I remember like uh. when I was a kid, they had one some. fellow had uh pornos at his house. He.

had magazines. >> Mhm. >> And we'd had somebody had like chiseled. some tits in the wood in the in a tree. near our home and stuff like that. And. we had that when I was young. And people. would show up to that like it was some. like kind of like a you know, some. mahogany chest Mecca or something, you. know? People would make the pilgrimage. to see that in in the woods, you know? Yeah, it's a. >> [laughter]. >> But at one point, I had a a a found a I. had a buddy and his dad had some porno. magazines. And dude, I remember once I'd. seen those, I would bike across town on.

the weekends to go and uh to go to their. home. And I would kind of loiter around. the house until there was an opportunity. to go see him. And um. one weekend, I even broke into their. like broke into [laughter] a window. I didn't break the glass, that's crazy. But I did. >> have been too much. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> You would have crossed the line there. >> But I snuck in to And I didn't realize. it at the time. It was just like I. didn't even realize that I was doing it. But when I later look back at it, it was. like, "Oh, it just like there was.

something There was a comforting thing. or there was like this addiction that. started." Um anyway, [clears throat] go. on, man. So, you would you would take. these computers in. >> Yeah, and you know, it was just a sign. that uh. I was really struggling with this. I. couldn't stop. And you know, there was. such a progression to this. You know, even like taking more risk on where I'd. watch porn. I'd watch it in the office. on my work computer, which is kind of. insane when you think about it. Yeah. And you know, I start watching different types of. porn.

You know, a category I didn't even know. existed. Right? You go down the left-hand side of. that porn and it's category after. category after category. And for me, you. know, I started gravitating towards like. fetish porn. And then eventually porn outside of my. sexual orientation. And uh I didn't know what I was doing. I. didn't know why this was so intoxicating. and why I couldn't stop. >> Mhm. >> And the problem was nothing wrong with. that type of porn, but for me it brought up so much shame.

And that shame was so debilitating in my. life. And so it was really a painful. experience. You know, this is a long. time ago, so there wasn't information. around that. There wasn't a place to go. and talk about this stuff. So, you know, I just had this kind of really horrible. feeling I was engaging in a behavior. that didn't feel like it was in. alignment with my values and I was. suffering. >> Mhm. Man, I'm sorry to hear I'm sorry to hear. that, man. I I know that we've we've. talked about this kind of a lot and and. I've heard you share before and but.

anytime somebody says that they're that. like they feel a lot of shame, like it. just really resonates with me, man. You. know, I've felt a lot of that in my. life. It's just shame for different. things, you know. Um it's so powerful. >> And you can't stop. >> And you said this sounds like a long. time ago, man. I've had friends that. I've talked to this week Yeah. that it's. the same it's the same story. Um. yeah, man, I can relate to like looking. at pornography and the just the shame. the horror you feel after. But then you. still need something that but then like.

it kind of wears off or you get out of. that shame and then you're again or. looking for something that'll kind of. give you a feeling, something makes me. feel good about myself or I'm not having. I'm not dating well or I'm afraid of. women anything whatever's going on and. then you find yourself back there. >> Well, you know, it's interesting the. ease and accessibility of porn today. anyway, make it so easy to regulate your. emotions with it. Right? You just think. about how you're able to really avoid. discomfort. >> Like what do you mean exactly? Like.

avoid it? >> it because here's the deal, right? If. you're feeling anxious, you watch porn, you feel temporarily calm, All You're. feeling bored, you watch porn, you feel. some stimulation. You're feeling lonely, you watch porn, you feel artificial. connection. So, porn for me can actually. affect and change my mood. So, so why is that a bad thing? Right? And so, cuz porn can work in the short. term. Okay? But, what happens, especially for. me, is I weaken my ability to regulate.

my own emotions. So, stopping watching porn wasn't just. stopping a bad habit. I had to learn how. to regulate my own emotions. I had to learn to deal with triggers and. urges. And so, there was this kind of. incredible process that kind of weaning. myself off porn was just not easy. >> Um [gasps]. thanks for sharing, man. Um. yeah, let's go back into your journey a. little bit, if you. >> Yeah. And so, you know, we're in this. place right now where I'm, you know,

using porn to deal with the pain of. being. >> Steve, you were in this place. >> Yeah, so, and, you know, at that time I. was in a relationship as well, and. great [snorts] girl. And, you know, throughout that. relationship, the more porn that I. consumed, things started to change, you know. You know, sex wasn't about connection, making love, it was about. intercourse over time. >> [snorts]. >> It was about replicating what I'd seen.

in the movies. You know, I often like to say. pornography abuse literally burns off. the nerve endings of sensuality in. relationships. Less kissing, touching, holding, caressing. And that certainly. was the case for me. And, you know, over. time in that relationship, you know, I experienced a lot of sexual. dysfunction. I had difficulty getting. and maintaining an erection during sex. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Over time, I actually didn't even want. to have sex with her. I'd been so. desensitized to sex with all the porn I.

was watching and masturbation I was. engaging in. And towards the very end, I. couldn't orgasm unless I was thinking. about a porn scene I had seen earlier. that day. >> Wow. >> So, pornography robbed me of my manhood. And you know, that poor poor girl, I. mean she. I mean talk about affecting her. self-esteem and self-worth. Like, what's. wrong with me? Why doesn't he desire me. anymore? Am I not attractive anymore? >> Mhm. >> And I had no ability to talk about this. at this time. I had so much shame over I.

had this incredible double life. So, you. know, porn helped to destroy that. relationship. And so, and I'm not talking about the. guy who's casually consuming porn. I was. abusing pornography. And you know, relying on it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It was It was just uh. um what you notice is that men who abuse. pornography, you know, there it comes. with some consequences. And you know, for me, pornography was a gateway drug.

Right? All those lines in the sand, I. had a behaviors that I would never cross. over and engage in, all got washed away. >> Really? >> Yeah. Pornography was a gateway drug. that led to strip clubs, erotic. massages, escorts, really dark dark places. It was so painful. You know, there came. a point in time in my life where I. couldn't even make eye contact with the. man in the mirror. >> Really? >> Cuz I knew the truth. >> Mhm. >> When I think about this journey, I mean,

porn was like the culprit. So, it just didn't work for me. >> Did it get to a point where it didn't. work and then you kind of evolved onto. other stuff or how did like. >> in 2008, my life just kind of blew up. I. collapsed emotionally, spiritually, professionally. Everything kind of came to a head and I. absolutely blew up my life. Uh unfortunately. And um but that was the time I also had.

the courage to kind of ask for and get. help. And, uh, not an easy thing to do to kind. of talk about these issues, get help for. these issues. And, uh, it was hard coming out of the gates to. get better from this stuff, you know? >> Yeah, how did you know? What was the Was. it like kind of a breaking point, if. it's okay to ask? >> Yeah, please. I mean, >> Thank you, bro, for just being so open. and like transparent about some of this, man. I think I was scared about even. like talking about this now cuz I'm. scared of like I don't know. I don't. know why I was. I don't know. I know.

you're such like a. you know, this is like your world. You're You care so much about helping. people with this situation, man. Um, so. I don't know why I was. But, um, like. did there come a point for you where it. was just like this is like. I just this is it, you know? >> I You know, I think the, um, the I knew I had to get help. I knew I was in a lot of trouble. I was getting the best help that was. available. And I was still struggling.

And not because I had the desire to get. better. The one thing I did really, really well. is I didn't give up. >> Mhm. >> I kept coming back. The one thing I really did well was I. had so many good people in my life that. saw something in me I couldn't see in. myself. >> Mhm. >> They refused to give up on me. I had an incredible family, my mom, my. brothers, my sister who loved me. unconditionally and were like a.

pillar of strength when I was so weak. So, I was so lucky to have such good. people in my life. And, uh, I had to fight for my recovery. Wasn't easy. It was not easy. I had to fight and. fight and fight. But, I'll tell you. what, I never gave up. And I live a pretty incredible life. today. >> Yeah. >> You know, I'm married to a woman I. absolutely adore, my wife Jennifer. Best thing that's ever happened to me.

She's an incredible, incredible human. being. >> Amen. >> And has made me such a healthier, better. man. >> Mhm. >> I am so blessed for her. And we had our. son, Theo, almost a year ago. We started. a family. >> Mhm. >> And [clears throat] uh all byproducts of. recovery. And so, I'm a huge believer. in. the power of recovery. The benefits of men getting into. recovery, especially as relates to.

sexual compulsivity and porn abuse. You know, when you think about my. recovery journey, right? I think about. it kind of. in three stages. Healthy intimacy, healthy sexuality, and. healthy masculinity. Healthy intimacy. First person I had to have an intimate. relationship with is myself. >> Mhm. >> I had to get more comfortable with. Steve. I had to stop running and. numbing. I had to learn to sit with discomfort.

I had to learn to really identify the. root causes that were driving these. compulsions. Because porn was not my problem. Steve was my problem. >> Wow. Yeah, man. Getting to know yourself. >> Mhm. >> Did you feel like yourself was like your. like self was like hidden kind of? Or that yourself had never developed? >> Does that make any sense? >> Yeah, I think probably both. All I know is I was so uncomfortable in. my own skin. You know, I suffered with anxiety. I. suffered with depression.

I didn't feel good about myself as a. man. >> Mhm. >> You know, I had such trouble being in. relationships, experiencing love. And I was so disconnected not only from. myself or from others. And it kind of. made sense why I abused pornography. I was just really unhappy. >> Yeah. >> You know, and that's. you know, the thing that I've learned. over the years is that recovery. is not about stopping a behavior. Recovery is about building a life you.

don't need to escape from. >> Mhm. Were you able to notice some of the. things that you felt like you were. escaping from that you felt like were. kind of sending you in that direction? >> Yeah. Right? And I I I was kind of emotionally. unstable. Right? And so, part of recovery is being. able to regulate your own emotions. Right? People think that like recovery. looks like this. It doesn't. It looks. like a chart of the Dow Jones.

>> Yeah. >> Right? And so, what you I end up doing. recovery is just kind of softening the. peaks and valleys so that I could exist. in life and, you know, not have to numb. the pain of the way I was living my. life. And so, you know, part of that. involved being able to have a. relationship with my sexuality that's. beautiful and empowering and made me. feel good about myself as a man. >> Mhm. >> That's so missed in recovery circles. Everything is about abstinence. And I. get that. There's value in abstinence.

But if you truly want to transcend this. compulsion, you have to build the life. that's more enjoyable, more purposeful. than the life you were living. Or else. you're going to be vulnerable to. returning to it. So, part of that means. like dude, Steve, you've got to learn. how to be in a relationship. You got to learn how to experience the. joys of your sexuality. You have to learn how to experience. meaningful connection. in order to truly transcend this. compulsion. >> Yeah, man. It's so funny you're saying.

this cuz I was thinking the other day. it's like. it's one thing to kind of like refrain. from things, right? Like I'm refraining. from drugs and alcohol and I'm you know, like I'm like I'm uh from things that. I'm addicted to, but it's another thing. like but if you don't have a life. outside of that then you're just sitting. there playing defense all the time. >> I was just thinking about that the other. day and somebody's like, "What do you. like to do?" and I'm like, "You know, well my my hobbies became my jobs." and. I'm like, "Yeah, I got to find I got to. find some things to fall in love with.". I got to find like and there's so many.

things. >> a great woman. >> Yeah, I mean yeah, that's. >> That that that would be [clears throat]. awesome. >> I would [laughter] hey. >> Just saying. >> I'm I'm down. But yeah, I see exactly. what you're saying. >> Like I live a life today where I don't. need pornography. >> Mhm. >> I don't need alcohol. I don't need. drugs. You know, this is like a journey. around. really healthy masculinity. You know, for so much of my life. my behaviors were not in alignment with. my values. >> Yeah. >> And I suffered.

Right? I needed porn. to deal with the way I was living my. life. So when I started to live my life in. alignment with like honor, integrity, love, service, kindness. I felt good about myself as a man. Like. I didn't need to numb the pain of Steve. >> Yeah. >> I could look in the mirror and be like, "That's a good guy." most days. >> Yeah. >> That's good stuff. >> Yeah. >> So that's often what's missed in. recovery. This is not just about. abstinence.

It's about becoming emotionally. regulated, kind of socially connected, living with honesty and integrity so. that you don't need some maladaptive. coping mechanism to deal with life. >> Amen. Yeah, man. I I think that this has been. like. I mean I have so many friends that that. talk about this a lot and even women. >> Mhm. [snorts]. >> I was talking to this girl the other day. and I said. "You know, I have a guy coming in who. started a recovery center for a porn. addiction." and she's like, "Oh, you know, I struggle with that." And I.

was like, It shocked me. >> Yeah. >> It I had never heard a woman just say. that to my face and casually, you know? um. Why do so many men struggle with this? >> So, here's the truth that no one tells. anybody. This is really, really difficult to. overcome. It's almost comical. You go online and. you see these ads, "We'll fix your porn. problem in 14 days." No, you won't. Yeah. Not happening. Sorry. You know, there and there there are a.

bunch of reasons why this is so hard. The ease and accessibility of this make. this like a phenomenon we've never seen. before. And it's not just porn, it's. sexualized social media. And so, so I'm in long-term recovery. from cocaine addiction. And could you imagine. in early recovery having to walk around. all day long with a pocket full of. cocaine. and not do it when you have some. uncomfortable feeling come up? What do you think it's like for these. guys that have their drug of choice in.

their hand on their phone? >> Yeah. >> So, the instant access makes this. challenging. So, that's one thing. But, there's a lot more going on. And. so, when you think This is the way I. think about it, right? And so, I think. that pornography kind of hijacks the. brain's reward system and so. disregulates your nervous system. Porn becomes this learned shortcut to. avoid discomfort. So, when you stop watching porn, you're. not just stopping a bad habit, you are. literally kind of throwing away your.

primary regulation tool. And when you. stop watching porn, I don't know if you. can relate to this, I certainly can, your nervous system can go haywire. Right? You can feel irritable, you can. feel anxious, flat mood, low energy, and. cravings. And these cravings can feel primal. They're literally a function of multiple. systems in your brain and body like. screaming out all at once that. something's missing for your survival. That's why guys return to the behavior. or quote-unquote relapse. This is not.

about willpower, this is not about moral. failure, this is biology and. neuroscience. Your brain has been conditioned. with all the porn that you've watched, and your nervous system has yet to find. another way to regulate itself. So, recovery is not just about stopping. a behavior, it's retraining your nervous. system, it's learning to how to deal. with urges and cravings so they weaken. over time. Second challenge is that.

you've heard it in my story, right? Men. use porn as a way to numb, avoid, or. suppress emotional pain. Anger, pressure, anxiety, depression, trauma that none of us want to feel. And so, when you stop watching porn, these feelings come back with a. vengeance. So, unless you begin to identify and. heal those root causes, you are going to. routinely return to the one thing you. know provides you temporary relief. And that's porn.

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your first purchase with code Theo at. liquidiv.com. But some men it just shows up everywhere. that you kind of get addicted to it like. that. It's like a guy may not have a lot. of problem like I may be healthy. >> Mhm. >> But uh he accidentally picks up some. cocaine off the street and now he's. using it, right? >> Mhm. >> As opposed to a guy who like is hurting. and goes to look for cocaine. >> Mhm. >> Or porn, you know, I'm just I'm using. cocaine as I don't know why I use that, but like you know, there's some guys who. accidentally just shows up on their.

phone, maybe it's a pop-up or whatever, or they just are they have some sexual. energy and they take it there. >> Mhm. >> And they're not really maybe they're. healthy when they get there. >> Mhm. >> And then there's guys who are unhealthy. that go there um. for a fix, it feels like. So, it feels. like there's kind of two different. versions. >> 100% 100. There's casual porn use. >> Okay, so not everybody is. >> Not at all. >> like is is trying to um has all these. things that they that they need to. repair. >> That's correct. >> Okay, got it. >> And there are guys out there that are. continuing to get engaged in the.

behavior despite consequences. And right, and so I think the statistics. say 10 to 15% of men have an addiction. or severe unhealthy relationship with. pornography. So, I'm talking about that. category of men. >> Yeah, because for me I know I never had. like the addiction to pornography. Like. >> Mhm. >> I had the use of it. >> Give it time. Give it time. Don't sell yourself short. >> [laughter]. >> Please, no. Um. but I definitely had uh where it it was.

an it was a way instead of having to. connect with the woman. >> Yeah. >> I would I this is an easier way and that. became like just an easier safer way. I. didn't have an So, I guess there isn't. an addictive element there, but I didn't. have like the the daily like. >> Mhm. >> you know, like the that draw to it I had. um. more like. like intimacy issues with talking with. women and stuff like that and um and. then I would just end up using doing. masturbation a lot of times not even to. pornography but uh but then once porn.

came more prevalent and stuff like that. it was easier. >> Well, I think you highlighted a really. good point. There's another component to. this porn abuse. porn addiction sexual compulsivity. whatever label you're throwing at it is. often referred to as an intimacy. disorder. Mhm. Meaning for many men this. is about more than just a sexual. behavior. This is about a pattern of. avoiding emotional connection. You just. highlighted. >> That was my thing. >> That's right. >> Emotional connection was tough for me. I. didn't have any experience of it and so.

[clears throat]. when I finally got into like like dating. or like where you're having attraction. with girls and they're having attraction. for you and women um it was a lot it was. like it was scary I guess or it was. alarming it was a lot of things and I. didn't have like a safe outlet to talk. about it. um. and I didn't have any groundwork of like. healthy connection at all. So that. uh so I think it yeah that just made it.

like kind of tough and then to avoid it. I would be like okay well I have these. sexual feelings I'll just go and. uh. use. jerking off or whatever something like. that as opposed to. uh trying to figure out how to work them. out cuz working them out in real time. when you're a kid like when you're young. you know when you're. adolescent or whatever it's kind of. scary you know it's like a lot of that. scary you know. >> Yeah, where do you go to talk about this. stuff? >> Right and your peers like some of them. are kind of helpful but some of them are. also like like other kids can be.

[ __ ] about this stuff. So um. anyway I'm trying to some of it I can't. I can't remember exactly some of the. ways but yeah instead of like engaging. sometimes I'll be like oh I'm too. nervous to even talk to that girl. I'll. just masturbate later on or something. >> it's interesting. You You make sense. perfect sense. Men Men. begin to prefer the safety of porn. versus the unpredictability. of. relationships and real people. >> Yeah. >> So, once again, recovery is not just.

about stopping a behavior. Recovery is. learning how to relate, engage, and. connect with others. Recovery is about. learning how to experience real. intimacy, which sorry, has to include. some vulnerability and taking some. emotional risk. Recovery is about. learning to experience the joys of. connection and love. Right? Cuz you know, if you're not on. that path, it's hard not to be in pain and. suffering. >> Mhm.

>> And so, it's so important in recovery. So, when you think about why this is so. hard, right? You just talked about it, right? If you don't understand the. neuroscience and the nervous system. regulation, guys just stay in this. hamster wheel loop. If you don't identify some of the root. causes that are driving this compulsion, you're vulnerable to returning to it. And if you don't do a deeper dive around. intimacy and what's blocking you from. connection, you stay in pain and lonely. So, kind of. all three of these need to be addressed.

in order for lasting recovery to occur. >> Yeah. >> But, it's more than that. >> [snorts]. >> And I'll tell you a few other thoughts I. have on why this is so hard. Early recovery can be very painful. >> Mhm. >> And so, when you so overstimulate your. brain from pornography. and from sexualized social media, when. you stop engaging those behaviors, your mood can be flat. You can have low. energy, and you can have intolerable.

boredom. >> Huh. [snorts]. >> And people think that boredom is the. enemy. It's not. It's actually your body. recalibrating. Everything you want in life is on the. other side of you learning how to. tolerate boredom. But for so many men, they quit too early. because they can't sit with this. discomfort. The other challenge we see constantly. is that so many guys quit before the. miracle happens. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I struggled for many years.

before I was able to make real progress. in my recovery. You know, often times in recovery circles, we. measure sobriety success by continuous. days of sobriety. 30 days, 60 days, 90. days, 6 months, a year. All good stuff. >> Right. >> All good stuff. >> Right. >> However, however, that cannot be the sole. measurement of progress. because for many guys, myself included, they're not going to get it right away.

Right? It's going to be a journey. And. if you keep kind of having to relapse, and you go down this massive shame. spiral that you're failing, that you're. a failure, you give up. So, recovery is about becoming. emotionally regulated, uh socially. connected, learning to live with honor. and integrity so that you don't need. porn anymore. That can take time. Recovery is about building a life you. don't need to escape from. That can take. time. And so, for many guys, especially.

single guys, right, where there's not. external leverage or consequences on. you. Right, a married guy, he's really. in trouble with his relationship, he's. got to get sober or the marriage is at. risk. >> Right. >> That's one dynamic. But now you got a. single guy right now. What is the. motivation for him right now to continue. on this work? You got to keep that. person inspired and motivated to. continue to do the work. And guess what? If the best that you can do is watch 80. to 90% less porn in any given month, great job.

>> Right. >> Great job. As long as that is in. conjunction with you developing new. habits to take better care of yourself. physically, spiritually, and. emotionally. >> Amen. >> Right? Recovery is a the the ability to. sustain abstinence will be a byproduct. of you taking better care of yourself. physically, emotionally, and. spiritually. >> Yeah, it's a three-sided deal. >> 100%. So, guys quit too early. Like, where you going? We just got started. And so, why not also measure consistency.

of going to the gym, consistency of. making social plans, consistency of. learning a new hobby? >> Keeping your word. >> Dude. >> Taking care of yourself. >> that stuff in addition to your sober day. count. >> Yeah, there's a lot of other factors. that start to gauge like that that you. can use to self-gauge as well and that. are super important. But also, a lot of. those factors are things that it's also. just like. you know, uh. it's getting up it's getting up, being.

active. I want to take care of myself. physically. You know, I want to. meditate. I want to have a relationship. with a higher power. I want to like. nurture this gift, this thing that I am, right? And there's this other it's such. a Pandora's Box porn is because it's. like. here's this thing and it's just it's. tricked it's tricked it's it's it's it's. like a. it's a just a finely calculated molecule. of the devil really.

You know, and it's it's and so, when. sometimes people are like, "Man, we're. not at war. There's not a lot going on.". But if we're sitting here losing a. battle a lot of times. So, I do think. there's a there's a there is this. inspirational element sometimes. um where I'll feel like I can I. like if I want a war, there's one every. single day. For me against the dark arts, against. the things that want to drag me down, you know, against the things that are.

literally or. are finessed to take away the essence of. me, right? The essence of me, man. And. so, it's like. there's a battle right now, I think, for. a lot of that, and a lot of us don't. realize. well, and and we can get kind of like. lullabied into the comfort of it. You. don't think it's a big deal. You're. looking at it once or twice, right? But. then you. like I would notice for myself if I was. doing jerking off or whatever, something. like that, the next day I'd feel a.

little bit kind of bad about myself, or. I'd be shorter with people. Um, if I. looked at pornography, it made me look. at. like. dates and stuff. It It just made me like. It carried I had a little bit of shame. inside of me. You don't even realize it. Sometimes it's like. you don't think it's on the forefront of. you or that it's it's affecting like the. look in your eyes or anything, but. there's a little bit of that in there. You know, it kind of like colors your. coffee a little bit. It's like um. but it's not the best color. You know, does any of this stuff make sense what. I'm saying?

>> you you bring up. >> kind of rambling, but. >> No, no, no, there's I want to I want to. >> It's hard to explain. >> Yeah, you did a good job with it. A few. things that come to mind. Number one, you talked about the rig system. And so, I read this. I shared this with. you on the phone a few weeks ago. I read this stat that said that. the dopamine spike. is. from the anticipation. of watching the next video, and not the. video you're actually watching. >> Wow.

>> So, the addiction is to the scroll. And I dopamine This is I may butcher. this, but I think that's what it said. Dopamine is not the pleasure chemical, it's the motivation chemical. It's the. chemical of pursuit. What's next? So, social media is rigged this way. Pornography is rigged this way. You. know, back in the day, you know, getting. access to porn was going to some creepy. video store. >> Yeah. >> Going behind a curtain that said adult.

only. Or beads, those beads that would. hang you obviously know. And all of a. sudden they get this VHS in a brown. paper bag, put it underneath your arm, and do the walk of shame home. >> Yeah. >> Right? But you go watch that VHS you. know, for 15 minutes, do whatever and go. about your day. That's not what. modern-day porn abuse looks like. It's. infinite novelty. >> Mhm. >> Where you're constantly. scrolling. for sexual imagery.

Hours at a time. >> Mhm. >> This is a whole new beast. >> Yeah, it says it right here. Industry. analytics and search engine S studies. estimate that pornographic content. accounts for roughly 20% of all internet. searches on mobile devices. That's. astronomical. This is notably higher. than desktop search rates, which. generally clock in around 13%. The. primary driver of this higher mobile. percentage is the privacy, portability, and convenience that smartphones.

provide. Because of this, studies from. major adult entertainment networks. indicate the vast majority of adult. content is is accessed via a cell phone. >> Mhm. >> Um. Yeah, I read the other day that Pornhub. uh. which is banned. uh here in Tennessee. I do want to say. that. >> Is that right? >> You have to have an ID to access it. And. that's how that dude that. that thing that they have, I think it's. the um. Tennessee Minors Act. Is that what it. is?

The Protect Tennessee Minors Act uh is a. state law mandating that commercial. websites and digital platforms. containing a substantial portion of. content harmful to minors uh. implement reasonable age verification. methods. So you have to you have to. enter your ID. >> stuff. >> That's a huge thing cuz it makes you. take some accountability. Okay, well, am. I is this something that I'm willing to. say I do? Right? Is this something I'm. willing to put my name, my height, my. data am I really you know what I'm. saying? Am I willing to go that far with. it?

I love that. I love that like there's. been times where I've wanted to go look. at stuff and that stopped me right. there. >> Great. >> Yeah. So, I do find that that is helpful. because it like. um. Yeah, I don't want to put myself in. there really. Like I want to look at it. as like this guy in the distance right? >> Have they seen fake IDs spiking right. now cuz people want. >> That's a great [laughter] question. >> Good business perhaps. >> Yeah, yeah. Around 7 to 11% of men self-report. experiencing problematic pornography use. or feeling addicted. I mean, that's unbelievable, man.

>> And it's just not porn, right? You look. at the content that's on X, you look at. the content that's on Instagram, Facebook reels, right? That sexualized. content can have the same effect on the. brain as watching pornography. And so, it's an issue. And [clears throat] so, we live in a. really tricky time right now because. it's everywhere. >> It's unbelievable. that it exists. It is unbelievable that. we allow it. >> Mhm.

>> as well. You know, that we allow it. >> Well, there's also a societal thing with. guys like it it's that's what guys do. Right? It's cool watching porn. And I'll. tell you the truth. I didn't think it was cool. >> Guys don't do it together. Guys watch a. game together. I've never had a guy. like, "Hey, man, I'm having a couple of. the guys over. >> to watch some porn?". >> Yeah. >> The thing that's really interesting to. me is he Here's the truth. >> Mhm. >> So many men who abuse pornography,

right? It affects their sexual. performance. It affects how they show up. in relationships and it builds shame. Right? So, so many men struggle with. sexual performance. That's that's not a. new thing. But what is new and I think. quite concerning, is how many of those. men are under the age of 40. >> Mhm. >> They turn to Cialis, Viagra, or. testosterone replacement therapy. thinking that something's wrong with. them physically. When the truth is, and. the reality is, is their sexual. dysfunction's probably caused by all the. porn they're consuming. So, heavy porn.

use can rewire the brain. And even in my. own story. >> true? Heavy porn. >> Perhaps heavy porn use can rewire the. brain and cause all all types of. problems in the bedroom. Like even in my. own story, right? I had difficulty. getting and maintaining an erection. during sex, especially with a partner. I. had difficulty orgasming towards the end. of my run with pornography. I had. difficulty maintaining an erection and I. needed porn stimulation to stay aroused.

And heavy porn use can absolutely lead. to premature ejaculation. >> Mhm. >> You know, one of the things I didn't. share in my story, which is important to. talk about, right? Because there's. probably a bunch of your listeners right. now listening waiting for someone to. tell the damn truth. You know, when I first started consuming. porn early in my life, before that. relationship, I struggled with premature. ejaculation. And I had so much shame and. embarrassment around it. >> Mhm. >> I got to a point where I'd rather not be. with a woman than be with a woman and.

have that type of sexual performance. >> You feel like you're just so nervous. about sex? I mean, it makes sense. Sex. is a nervous thing for a. >> tell you a few things I didn't. >> for a youngster. >> I didn't realize a few things. >> For the children, sex is nervous for the. children, you know? It's a nervous. thing. >> Even for adults. >> Yeah. >> And so, what I didn't realize at that. time was that all the porn that I was. consuming. and the way that I was actually. masturbating to it kind of conditioned. my brain to orgasm quickly, and that. carried over to real-life scenarios. >> Mhm.

>> I didn't realize at that time that the. intense porn that I was watching so. overstimulated my brain leading to early. orgasm. >> Wow. >> So, my porn use was tied to shame. and secrecy, which fueled kind of. anxiety around sex, making it kind of. uncomfortable. And. you know, porn was the cause of this. >> Yeah. >> So, that's one area, men. Not so manly. when you think about, "Hey, you know, is. it really that cool?". >> Right. >> Second challenge that guys tend to have, it can totally affect how guys show up.

in relationships. >> Oh, yeah, dude. Watching like like. touching your body or whatever, jerking. off or whatever, it was like um. it was like. it just made it easier than having to go. and try with women and having to go and. have a relationship. It made it all just. easier. And if you came from like an it. For me, I just there was so much it was. so uncomfortable. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat]. >> that I was like, I don't really I I. mean, I guess I had a choice,

>> Mhm. >> but I it just was too much of a. of a easy alternative. It was like, I. don't have I don't know how like, you. know, I'm so embarrassed I'm so like just have. so low self-worth, so many little. things. They're like, "Man, I can't. I can't go ask this girl out or do, you. know." So, it became this little thing. And then the This was the part that I. was going to get that you made me think. about. Sorry. Every Everything about sex felt like a. secret. >> Mhm. >> Right? Like I would like it was always.

like when I was growing up, we'd go in. the woods and see the tits or whatever. chiseled in the wood or whatever, or you. would sneak into your. >> still around, you think? >> I'm sure it's been. No, I think they had weevils or whatever. got it. >> I'll stand weevils. >> I think it was that. I can't remember. exactly, I have to look it up. >> Okay. >> But it or it could have been one of. those new ticks that Bill Gates. unleashed or whatever. But so, [laughter] whatever, I'm sure it's gone. these days or it's really. >> Yeah. >> It's eroded to an A cup, you know, for. sure. [laughter]. >> And what's the point to visit it then,

right? Come on. >> At the time, those things were all. >> And they're making a road trip for an A. cup. >> Dude, they had a woodpecker would land. on one of them. >> [laughter]. >> That's big. >> Pretty nice. >> Oh, so uh But, dude, the the biggest. thing that I think about like it was. just like seek everything was set sex. when I was young became like secretive. >> Mhm. >> It became like secretive because. Yeah, if you were looking at. pornography, you she was doing. masturbation, you were sneaking off and. doing it. So, everything became. secretive. So, then like everything like. even when I dating, I never want anybody. to know was I was very secretive about.

stuff. So, it always had all this like a. little bit of extra like kind of taboo. around it, I think. I don't even know. what that means, but it was just like. you know, when things are in secret, it's it's. you know, they they. things in secret can be kind of. uncomfortable. Cuz things you're you're always trying. to hide can be kind of uncomfortable. >> That's right. And I you know, I think. also that secrecy can lead to shame. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, you're always if. something's in secret, you're always. worried someone's going to find out. about something. >> And I didn't have any positive like uh.

relationship with sex or no like I. didn't have any not like I didn't nobody. taught me or told me nothing about it. It was just like your body good you. change and then you're like dealing with. it. And. >> I'm still waiting to get the birds and. bees conversation from dad. [laughter]. You know what I'm saying? >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they should just have a decent man. that travels around the country. >> Yeah. >> helping just have the birds and the bees. conversation. >> Like a temporary rent-a-dad to have the. conversation with you when you're like.

12. >> Yeah, just like some weiner Santa or. whatever who he travels around, he pulls. up, you know what I'm saying? Do it. outside where everything where it's in. view of the you know, where the Lord can. see it. But, um. Anyway, uh you were going into a second. uh part about. >> our relationships. >> how it affects relationships. And dude, I'll I'll even remember like if you been. if I if I say if you, but if I'd been. like. you know, doing touching myself. whatever, off or whatever like that, then I would uh. It You're right when you said it's like.

it changed the amount of intimacy. Now. it's like if my girl and I are going. somewhere, maybe I I I don't I would I. wouldn't touch her I touch her elbow, or. like, you know what I'm saying? Or like. give her a pinch, or like, you know what. I'm saying? I wouldn't create that. energy. So a lot of that energy. disappears. And that's the thing I think. that uh we don't realize a lot. It's. [clears throat] that little like that. yin and yang, that whole thing that. keeps like. nature and society and. and really the future, cuz of. procreation, which keeps it all in. balance, is this kind of tension, right?

A romantic kind of like samba between. like like her aura and mine. And. pornography like uh weakens that. And. then you're right, people take into. their head, like a woman will take into. her head, like, "Oh, something's wrong. with me, or he thinks I'm not this way, or I can't do these things.". >> Yeah. >> Which is You know what I'm saying? So. it's just it's a it's a tough cycle. And. I think a lot of it does fall on us. >> men, because we got to be stronger, you. know? I'm not saying that I'm great at. it or anything.

>> But I do think that. somebody's got to come to the rescue of. us, and I think it has to be us. >> Well, no one's coming to rescue us, right? You got to take accountability in. your own life. But I think you you you. really eloquently kind of laid out the. dynamics that porn abuse can have in. relationships. >> Yeah, really? You really did. That was. really well said. >> And uh. you know, >> I just. >> I just I I feel bad about some of the I. feel like, "Dang, I wasted a couple. relationships. I wasted some and I.

wasted somebody's time, and I wasted. like. and I didn't even know it.". >> Mhm. >> But yeah, some of that. >> You know now. The only way you learn and. grow. >> Yeah. >> And you know, what you often see when. men abuse porn over time, they can lose attraction for their. partners, cuz they can't compete with. porn. I mean, how unfair is that? Right? There Yes. >> I'll say it again, pornography abuse. burns off the nerve endings of. sensuality in relationships. Less.

touching, holding, kissing, caressing. So, [snorts] if I'm watching porn, you. know, maybe I don't notice the waves in. my wife's hair. If I'm watching porn, we. we hold hands less perhaps. So, pornography abuse can deaden the. vibrancy of our partners, our wives, and. our marriages. I mean, that kind of. sucks. >> Yeah, well, it. >> dims the way you feel For me, it dims. the way I feel if I'm waking up. >> That's right. >> Like, ah, I still love My first thought. sometimes is if I look at that. pornography today before, it's like, oh. man, I wish I hadn't done that.

I think I cannot do it. You know, it's. like But you're always in this war, you. know, it puts you always in like this. battlefield. >> It's like being hooked up to an IV drip. of shame. And for not every guy, right? We're not. talking about the casual use. We're. talking about the compulsive use. And. And the other thing you you tend to see. over time the guys that end up abusing. pornography. Porn and masturbation just become the. preferred sexual outlet. And shame and secrecy and guilt become.

the norm. And because of that shame, so. many guys, especially our young guys, are not dating. They've given up on dating. They're not actually having physical. sex. I read a stat not too long ago that. one out of three men under the age of 30. have not had sex in the last year. >> One out of three men? >> One out of three men under the age of 30. have not had sex in the last year. >> But some of those men could be 10 years. old or whatever. >> I would imagine I would imagine I didn't. look at the the fine print of the thing.

I would imagine it probably told me age. 18 to or 30. >> Oh, they should say that then. >> They should probably Yeah, good point. >> Cuz yeah, if it's like it is five year. olds, then I'll tell you like, yeah, I. hope not. >> Yeah, we might We'll fact check this. right now. Anyway. >> [laughter]. >> Recent data from the General Social. Survey indicates that nearly one quarter. of young adults aged 18 to 29 reported. having no sex in the past year. Looking. specifically at younger single men under. 30, the rate of sexlessness can climb closer. to 1/3.

And then, bro, you know what happens I. think when when we you start to when you. start to like. when you dim the men in a culture, anything can come in there. >> True. >> It's like when you dim the warriors who. are standing at the gate, anything can. slip in there, you know? And then they. come in and now they got the women on. OnlyFans cuz the. they're not in a relationship and. there's not like a provider and there's. not like a leader and you're not part of. like a we're doing this together, right? And then like everything's for sale. It's like what's for sale now, you know? And I don't mean that I'm not it's not.

none of that's negativity at anybody. It's just like. uh. you know? It's just like um I don't know. Am Do I. sound judgmental? I'm just kind of. looking at I think it all makes me just. like. I don't know. I feel like we're stronger. than this, but we we are in a war. >> Well, I think what you're highlighting. and what I'm hearing you say is so many. of our young men in particular, they. lack confidence in themselves. They're full of shame. Right? They don't have the uh they can't.

handle rejection. Right? The world needs healthy, strong. men. And pornography abuse is emasculating. our men today. >> That's what I'm saying. >> That was definitely the case for me. 100%. But here's the deal. >> Mhm. >> And I need your listeners to hear this. right now. >> Yeah, amen. Cuz I don't want to get. stuck in the dour parts of it and that. things are not healable because that's. not the truth. >> That's not the truth. The truth is it is. time to reclaim your damn manhood. >> Type [ __ ].

>> You know? Seriously. >> No, I feel you. >> Enough is enough. >> Right. >> Enough is enough right now. Uh there's a. cesspool out there that are killing our. men today. So, let me tell you in my own. journey, when I got the right type of help. >> Mhm. >> I was able to work through these sexual. dysfunction. When I got the right type of help, I was. able to. be in a healthy relationship where I. felt good about myself as a partner, as. a man. So, it's not just like Steve. stops watching porn and everything fixes. itself. >> Right.

>> Don't work that way. >> Right. >> It's a process of retraining your brain, your body, and your relationship to. intimacy. >> Amen. What were some of the first like. the initial moments? Was there a kind of. like a day or a time in a rehab? Cuz you. went to some different Is it okay to say. that you went to some to some different. rehabs? >> did all of them. >> You did? >> [laughter]. >> [ __ ] your boy. Dude, Stevie was a animal. out there in the party like his old. partying stories are great, bro. >> That's right. >> You have some great ones, man. And I'm. not talking to just sec- I'm not talking. sexual stuff. I'm talking like just uh. your AA partying stories. And sometimes.

we tell those war stories because it. keeps you out of the battle. >> 100%. And you got to laugh at them now. >> Oh, dude, if I go to an AA meeting and I. laugh with my friends about like times. where we used to do stupid stuff or. something ridiculous. >> That's right. >> The feeling I get laughing with friends, I leave out of there, I don't want to. drink, I don't want to use, I don't want. to do anything harmful to myself because. I've just felt connection, and that. gives me something that that I'm. supposed to have. >> So, like you ever see like when a maybe. Theo Von or the Red Hot Chili Peppers go. on tour, they have t-shirts that list.

all the cities they visited? >> Yeah. >> I did that with rehabs. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> So, I don't know. I mean, come on, dude. And so. >> was your tour called? Do you have a tour. name? >> I don't have a name for it. Maybe you. could help me out with that. [laughter]. And so, you know, it's just the. journey's the journey, man. And so, once. again, it's it's, you know, it's about perseverance and not giving. up. But, I'll tell you some things that. are interesting that that when I was. able to get the right type of help as it.

relates to my. porn addiction. I was able to stabilize my arousal. >> Stabilize your arousal, you say? Okay. >> When I. >> tell me what that means when you say. that? >> You know, I was uh pornography abuse so. distorted. my view of women. Pornography abuse had me in a constant. place of euphoric recall and fantasy. Right? And so, I had to learn how to not. rely on that kind of dopamine-fueled.

kind of energy [clears throat]. to deal with life. I had to learn how to. build sensation for sexual experiences, to be present. >> Amen. >> in sexual experiences. So, when I got. into recovery, dude, my sex life was so. enjoyable, right? I learned how to kind. of make love and connection and kissing. and sensuality, all kind of beautiful. stuff. When you get into recovery, often. times you hear you have better erections.

and more satisfying sex. >> That's what I want. I want that super. erection. >> That's it. And you hear all the time. that guys get into recovery and sustain. recovery, it's so much more enjoyable. They're present for it. They're not full. of shame. There's a confidence that. comes from it. >> Yeah, that's what I Yeah, I want that. wiener that's like plays the game. Like, I feel like I might My wiener's like a. designated hitter. Like, it'll get up to. the plate. It's kind of like but it. knows it's not going to be out in the. field. It's like showing up for the. freaking, you know. >> Ohtani's a DH sometimes. >> Ohtani is?

>> Yes. So. >> [laughter]. >> Oh, well. What are you trying to say? I. got a small wiener? >> with that. I'm not sure what I was going. to say with that. I'm not sure what I. was saying with that. Although, he hits. a lot of home runs, so. >> Hey, there we go. >> [laughter]. >> That's what we're talking about. >> Yeah. >> Uh we might take that part out, which is. fine. Um so, so you're saying like you. know and you noticed that? Like, do you. remember Do you remember like a first. experience where you kind of notice. something small that you were like, oh. wow, these things that I'm doing in. recovery are working? And then what were some of the things. that you were doing in recovery? >> Well, I I I a bunch in recovery, right?

And so, I did a lot of therapy. I was. really active in 12-step recovery. I. was, you know, I had my own personal. coaches that were really helpful. And [snorts] and I'll tell you, I. believe that. recovery is a team sport. I think men. need other men to become better men. Amen. I think men need vulnerability. role models. Men need love and support. Men. [clears throat] need to run other men. that have similar life experiences. around sex to transcend the shame that's. keeping our lives small. >> Praise God, bro. That's a good group.

>> really important. I think men heal best. in community as it relates to sexual. compulsivity. And so. >> Yeah, it's so hard to heal in shame by. yourself, bro. >> You can't. I don't think you can. >> I know, man. >> I don't think you can. >> for people, huh? >> Yeah, so I think, you know, in in. conjunction with that, so many men today. are so isolated and so lonely. And so that's the driver of some of. these behaviors. So once again, the road. map to healing has to lay the the the.

groundwork for connection and community. >> Mhm. >> And so where you practice. kind of being part of something bigger. than yourself. You practice. honesty. You practice vulnerability. It. gets modeled to you. Really important for men to see other. men living this way. >> Like in recovery circles and stuff? >> 100%. >> Oh yeah, man. Oh, I'll sometimes, man, I'll be in a meeting and it's like some. guy will say something. My friend James Bushera, he always tells.

me. uh. He says, "We are the keys to each. other's locks." That's what he says. >> Mhm. That's sweet. >> It's one of the best things, man. I. think about it every single day, you. know? It's like something that gives me. hope, I think, a lot of times. Yeah, because it's like uh somebody will say. something, man, that like. something inside of me has been trying. to say my whole life, and I just. couldn't put the right few words. together. It doesn't even have to be a. big huge words or fancy words. Sometimes. it's just a simple thing, but somebody. will say it. >> Mhm. [sighs].

And a part of me will exhale that's been. waiting to exhale for so long. >> How sweet is that? >> Yeah, oh it's amazing, man. So, yeah, I. I I can't iterate how much recovery and. and community, right? And then the fact. that like. dude, sometimes like I'll notice like uh. especially these days you we get so. caught up in our own worlds, but uh it. almost feels like a gift when I think. about when somebody else comes into my. mind or heart. Like this time I don't. purposely sit down. I want to think. about people and stuff, but if I'm just.

like I'll be like, "Oh, I just saw them the other day and they. mentioned this. Let me call and check in. about it." Or just something that's like. if it's about somebody else, >> Mhm. >> bro, that's like the. when that happens naturally in my head, it's the best thing that ever happened. to me. And it's just because of community. Just. But it only happens if I go to those. meetings if I if I'm interacting with. guys, >> That's right. >> if I'm a part of of of community, right? >> And you need guys in your life like, "Okay, Theo, enough with the show.

What's really going on?". >> Right. >> And you need guys like that. >> Oh, dude, to tell somebody that, "Bro, I'm [ __ ]. Yeah, like this one I was in a meeting. this morning, man. I'm trying to let me. think about what I said if I'm really. honest, right? I got into a meeting. A lot of times I'll do a Zoom in the. mornings. Uh you and I go to one that's similar. Is that okay to say? >> Please. >> Um. and I'll be in the gym. I'll work out. while I'm in there. So, I'll listen. because it helps me get two things done. It makes me feel pretty like I'm doing. something. And. uh.

what I said today? Oh, I'm trying to. keep some negative things out of my. head. So, I'm staying focused. I'm. staying on a path. Um. like I'm I'm staying active. Cuz if I. stay active, I stand a better chance. when those things come into my head. Uh and I was trying to be honest to guys. like, "Hey, these are some of the things. that I've been thinking about. I know. that these things grow if I I share. about them at this level, at this level. of being a seed, I know it'll grow into. a it'll grow into a cactus that I don't. want inside of me. So, I have to share. it at a seed, right? I had to learn a.

lot of times I freaking joke with a lot. of cactuses because but learning to. share something at a seed level, um. >> Calling it out early. >> Calling it out early, yes. And then just. said like uh. Yeah, like I'm so sick of myself but I. feel like I'm the only person that I. have. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat]. >> And that was like and I know it's not. true but to share even if it's a. feeling, right? Because once I share this feeling I know. it's not true. I have a ton I have a lot. of friends. I have people that love me. but sometimes I have to share what a.

feeling is, right? So, it doesn't cuz. that feeling sometimes can grow if I. don't share it, it sits in there. You know? Anyway, [clears throat] does. that make any sense? >> I make you know, it's so interesting as. a as you're as you're sharing I'm just. thinking about this concept of like. like recovery is about. this journey towards healthy. masculinity. And and when you think about like like. the word masculinity often gets. conflated with toxicity today.

Which I think is kind of unfair. >> Oh, it's unfair and I think it's by. design. >> That's right. Masculinity to me is what. you just talked about. Honesty, integrity, vulnerability, courage, being. a protector, being a provider, being a. great friend, showing up for others, and. living a life that's bigger than just. yours. >> Yeah. >> And so, when you think about like this. journey of recovery, this journey. becoming a healthy man, what a beautiful journey it is, right? You think about like, you know, porn. abuse teaches us as it trains us to.

objectify and disrespect women. I think healthy masculinity is about. humanizing women. Women are beautiful. and amazing. >> Yeah, and we came from a woman. Like a. what we I wonder what the effects are. See if you can find something about. this. What are the effects of. pornography on young men's relationship. with their mothers of watching. pornography. You know what I'm saying? Like if you. start cuz it's like I do notice when I'm. healthy and I'm taking care of myself, I'm able to view the women in my life. that. uh differently, right? And I'm able to.

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You know, I think a lot of guys are in. hiding. I think a lot of us are afraid. to say that. uh we know that we're in a war. And everybody's going and fighting. behind closed doors. >> Mhm. >> And that's kind of crazy. When you think about that, that's kind. of. >> It's scary. >> It's scary. >> Scary. >> Right? >> Scary. >> And how can Is there a way to win it. that way? I don't know. >> Mhm. >> Um. >> Well, you know, I could tell you from. the life I live today, I mean, I don't feel like I'm in a war, you know? I have a life that's kind of.

rooted in love. >> Bro, you've changed so much since I met. you, man. >> Yeah, I have. >> You give me hope. >> Yeah. >> for the life I could live, man. >> That's right. And you know, >> You really do. >> I'm glad. >> You do. And you were always everybody's. favorite. You said earlier that people. cared about you or like there was some. there was always somebody like. >> Yeah. >> your family's always You were like the. guy in the meetings, dude. It was like cuz we went to meetings that. had like some fancy people in them. >> Real fancy. Some tall people, too. >> Oh, yeah. >> Tall guys, [laughter] all types of.

>> One tall guy, anyway. >> Yeah. >> Couple of real grade A. >> perverts, right? The cream de la cream, right? [laughter]. >> That's right. >> But bro, and it was but bro, we got in. those rooms and we Here's the thing, we. laughed in there, we were uh people were. honest, we laughed. Uh but yeah, you were always It was. like, "Dude, I wish I could be friends. with Steve.". >> Mhm, that's sweet. >> It was the truth, bro. >> And you you just made us. It's so important to laugh in recovery. >> Oh, dude, people don't You got to. realize this [ __ ] it it is a People.

laugh so much. It's not just this dour. thing. >> No. No, because this stuff is dark, it's. heavy, and. dude, laughing at each other. I think laughter is so good for the. soul, man. You read the news right now, it's so heavy. You listen to the news, it's so heavy. Finding a place to be. lighthearted, to have fun, and to laugh. is so healing. >> Oh. Yeah, man.

>> You know, me guys I struggle with that. that I talk to and work with that are. struggling, and if I can get them on the. phone or I can get them to laugh. >> Amen. >> Oh, dude. >> Oh, yeah. >> It just takes it from a nine out of a 10. to a six out of a 10. You know? >> Yes. >> And it's just so important to let the. air out of the balloon with laughter. >> What are the things How how do how do. how do guys not realize um. Okay, here uh Trev and found something. right here. I'm going to interject real. quick here. Just go back cuz I never. thought about that before. Does it.

affect the way I look at my my sister, my mother, women in my life in world? Could be your teacher, anyone, if you're. consuming pornography. How porn shaped. beliefs affect views of mothers. This. article explains that frequent exposure. to pornography reinforces rigid gender. norms and the objectification of women, or where women are seen primarily as. sexual objects rather than full com-. complex people. Yeah. As these attitudes become part of. a teenage boy's belief system, he may be. begin to see women, including his. mother, through a more dehumanized,

stereotyped lens, weakening genuine. mutual respect. >> And I'll tell you, the the challenge. today with what you just read is so many. men today started watching porn when. they're 10, 11, 12 years old. Right? That was like they're part of a. generation where the iPhone just came. out. And so they had access to porn at. this very early stage of their life. And. so by the time you get to work with them.

in treatment or therapy, and you hear. about like their childhood, they've had. pretty normal childhood. Normal, right? Not not a lot of trauma. As we would understand trauma. The. trauma is the porn that they started. watching at 10 years old. >> Mhm. >> And it's just kind of intense porn. How. many guys you hear like 10, 11, 12 years. old watching rape porn? >> Oh. >> I mean, how painful is that when you. think about that? >> Well, yeah, you have to know Oh, it's. unbelievable. It's unbelievable. And you have to know that these. companies and I'm not setting myself.

apart from anybody. Like I've been down. these roads, you know? Um. Uh but you have to know that these. companies it is This is strategy by. them. This is a This is I believe I. don't think that the people that work in. porn or sex work or anything like that. I don't. I don't have any ill thoughts or any. any of that towards anybody like that. that's involved in it. I just think as a. in mass that. they don't have the best These companies.

don't have the best interest for us, right? Like the a lot of the pornography. now it's like mother-son, grandmother-son. You know? Kids. >> Like you can't you can't unsee that. >> Right. Right. And it's also makes you. think it's like well, these are the most. important relationships in the world. Boss-secretary, you know, or just like. whatever it is. Sisters, you know, it's. like they're taking the most valuable. relationships that have been given to us. by uh uh.

our creator and by the world. and even by science and they're trying. to manipulate those that they don't have. any value to us other than sexual some. sexual uh per- per- perversion. >> And if you're 12, 13, 14 years old. consuming this stuff? >> Yeah. >> How are you supposed to process that? >> Yeah, and just even seeing the words. while you're looking at pornography, you. see the word mother, son, father, daughter. It's all like it's all a. strategy. The devil is at work. Um I. believe that, you know, it's the dark.

arts and. um. I'm not saying that I don't wade through. the waters of them and you know, but. that's one thing you said it's like we. continue to fight. We don't give up. >> [snorts]. >> You know, and you learn so much along. the way. >> Yeah. >> Um. Yeah, before we keep moving on, I want. to I want to ask you too, Steve. What are there things that could be. happening that. uh mothers or fathers might not see. that how their use of pornography or. like checking out like that sexually. checking out of like their environment,

you know, their use of watching. pornography um could be affecting things. with their interactions with their. children or their home life? >> Uh yeah, totally. You know, it's so interesting as as a. >> Cuz sometimes you don't correlate that. >> don't. >> You know what I'm saying? You just. think, "Man, my marriage isn't working, but separately I'm watching porn.". >> That's right. And so when you think. about the idea of healthy masculinity, being in recovery, and being a father. Right? So I'm a I'm a new father right. now and you know, my son's young. He's. almost he's about a year right now, but.

the just the the responsibility I have. in modeling to him how you treat a. woman. >> Mhm. >> Really important, right? The kindness. that I show his wife, getting to see. affection, touch. All that stuff is really important. That. I don't you know, you I I your story. from your childhood, you know my story. from my childhood that wasn't. necessarily modeled to us. And so, if. you're watching pornography, right? And. as a result of that it's distorting your.

view of women. Can be challenging, right? You think. maybe they don't know. Trust me, they. know. They may not know you're watching. porn, but that energy you have that you. you can't hide that. >> Yeah, there's a little bit of shame, a. little bit of I'm keeping something. secret. It's That's right. It's a little. bit of something's wrong and I'm It's a. little bit of. I'm scared somebody's going to figure. this out and I don't even know what it. is. >> Well, you know what happens too, also, guys that abuse porn, right? They're. just not present for their lives. Yeah.

They're not showing up for for their. kids, right? They're they're on their. phones. They're consumed in fantasy. They're not present. They're missing. life. >> Yeah. >> You're missing life. And so, when you. you guys get into recovery, dude, you. see this all the time. They start. coaching flag football teams and loving. it. They're able to show up in their. lives and be present. They're better. fathers. They're better husbands. They're emotionally regulated. >> not involved. It's almost like porn is.

like your It's like your weiner playing. video games. It's not real. If you. walked into a room every day and your. weiner was playing a video game and at. some point you'd be like. turn it off and get the [ __ ] up and go. outside. You know what I'm saying? Like. you would tell you want your you depend. on what video game. That's a good point. >> [laughter]. >> That's good if it's Castlevania or. something, yeah. But I'm just saying like. anyway, I don't know what I'm saying. Um. >> [laughter]. >> That's one thing I've noticed in. in meetings when I've been in when. people share. and people start to get better,

they start to say man. like today I had the desire. to spend time with my kids, to engage, to go outside and do this with my. daughter, to like. flirt with my wife in the kitchen, like. I walk in the house and there's a look. on my face and I'm excited to see this. person that loves me. Just little things. like that that I've heard guys share in. meetings that are like that just let me. know that um. that recovery's real, you know? >> And the joy of living. >> Yeah, what have you seen recovery look. like for people? Like, what are some. testimonials that you've experienced in.

the rooms? >> Yeah. >> Um and even through Valor, you know? >> Yeah, and so uh lots of good stuff. Uh let me think of a few good ones that. might be. Well, I'll share a story. One one of our. first clients, um 62-year-old man. been uh. abusing porn for about 40 years. And long time, you know? And uh by the. time he got to Valor, he was 6 years. sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. Um. but he was in so much pain.

He had not uh been divorced for 10. years, had not had sex in 10 years, and. was so full of shame. And when I first met with him, you know, I we're trying to like get some goals. Like, what do you want to try to. accomplish here? And uh he said, "Well, I want to stop watching porn." I said, "Awesome. We're going to help you do. that. What what else? Tell me what to. play with." And he he just couldn't get. there. Just make something up. Tell me a. long-term goal. If you had like a genie. in a bottle, you had a wish, give me. something. I'll never forget what he said.

He [snorts] said, "You know something, Steve? For as long as I can remember now, uh. on Sundays, I go grocery shopping. by myself for the week. And I see families shopping and couples. shopping, and. it's so lonely.". >> Mhm. >> He goes, "One day, I'd like to go shopping. with a girl I'm dating.". >> Mhm. >> I said, "Okay.". You know, about 8 months later, that guy.

sent me a s-. shot of him and his girlfriend grocery. shopping. And it broke me. >> Mhm. >> And I tell I remember telling my wife. the story and just crying. And she's like, "What's coming up for. you?". And she can't really understand because. two things. I know that pain of loneliness. And I know how good it feels to be free. of it. >> Wow. >> Great story. Love that story.

And what's on offer here? >> That's what's on offer here, huh? >> Yeah. The the always of living, finding. love. Another great story you hear You. hear this with consistency, you know. I. get a phone call with a guy that's. maybe sober 6-9 months. This one guy in. particular and he says, "Steve, you. know, last night I was on the couch staring at. my wife. And it's like I'm seeing her for the. first time. And I can't believe how pretty she is.". >> Wow. >> Like to me,

hearing that brings me so much joy. When you kind of that fog lifts, that. porn-induced, shame-based fog lifts and. you can actually see life in color. versus black and white. >> Mhm. >> What a gift, you know? >> Yeah, man. >> And then you see guys that get time. This is what drives me wild. They They They get time. They get 6. months, 9 months, a year away from. pornography and wild stuff starts. happening.

They go back to grad school. They launch a new business. They get a big raise. Like what the hell's that got to do with. you not watching porn? >> Yeah. >> The answer's everything. Because what's happening now is you're. transcending the shame that's keeping. your life small. >> Mhm. >> You always hear like a guy all of a. sudden guy lacks confidence in himself. He's so full of shame, lives a double. life. He walks into a restaurant, can. never actually make eye contact with. that woman at the bar. He maybe looks.

over, puts his head down and walks to. his table. He's now 9 months sober, right? He makes. eye contact, walks over, introduces. himself. >> Yeah. >> And they're now engaged. >> Let's go. >> These are the stories of recovery. Didn't mention anything about not. watching porn. Not watching porn is just. the point of entry. Learning how to live a life that you. don't need to escape from. is what recovery's all about. Recovery's.

about learning how to experience the. joys of love and connection. >> Mhm. >> So, one simple question I tell guys all. the time, it's real simple. It's real. simple. Is your porn use bringing you. closer to or further away from the man. you want to be? And if you don't like the answer to that. question, what are you going to do about it? >> Yeah. Yeah, it's it's uh.

I've been in a lot of the meetings where. I've seen guys share about stuff and. you see seeing a guy have a new. experience, you know? >> It's the best. >> When does a lot of this stuff Is there a. time that you notice how and when a lot. of this starts for a lot of guys, Steve? Have you been able to put together any. theories about that? >> younger and younger. You know, because you've talked a lot. about Valor on your podcast, we we have. seen a lot of younger men in their 20s. When I first started Valor, I thought I. would work with guys like me, older.

professional men that are dealing with a. porn addiction, sexual compulsivity, and. need to get help. And we've worked with. a fair amount of that, but we we because. of. your fan base, there are a lot of single. men in their 20s. And um. challenging dynamic because they're not. married, they're not in a relationship, there's no external consequences, and they've been doing this for like. 10, 15 years. >> Right. >> And so, it's like, you know,

they've been in full-blown addiction for. over a decade and they're 22 years old. >> They don't even realize it. >> even realize it. >> That's the craziest part. >> Wild. Wild. >> It's just like a regular habit. It's. like taking them. uh melatonin. >> 100%. It's just part of their life. >> Yeah. >> It has rewired and conditioned their. brain and they're full of so much shame. and they lack such confidence in. themselves. So, breaking them free of. porn, it's interesting. How do you. motivate and inspire a guy like that to.

stay on this journey? How do you create motivation in their. life to continue on this path even. though their path can be choppy at. times. >> Mhm, yes. >> Yeah. How do you get that guy to. continue to show up and not be in shame. if he watches a little bit of porn? Right? That guy can be getting better. watching 80 to 90% less porn over any. given month. Great job. Keep coming. back. >> Mhm. >> If you return to the behavior and you. relapse or return to use, own it quickly, talk about it, learn. from it,

and keep growing. >> Yeah. >> And so, motivating younger men is been. uh a little different and to create. inspiration because here's the truth. Like, they're so isolated and so. disconnected. They have significantly. less friends than decades before. Everything is kind of online. Everything. is virtual. And so, the loneliness is. profound. >> Well, as part of existence, it's not.

like I think some people you don't even. notice that you're lonely anymore. That's one of the wildest things. You'll. spend all day by yourself, but you won't. really notice that you're cuz you have. some interactions, you see people, you. see them. So, there's all this hijacking of things. that are real that would normally make. you feel like you have are not alone. You see people, you hear voices, you. know, I mean, you're you know, you can. even engage with people. >> hearing voices as perhaps the best.

>> [laughter]. >> He's like, you can see people on your. phone or on your computer. You can you. can do FaceTime. Like you can So, there's all these like. like these secondary little pieces, but. the connection the true the reality. >> And remote work certainly doesn't help. I mean, there are guys that just don't. leave their home. >> Well, yeah, it's like you you could. basically go to work online. You could. get off work, get some order some food. online. Then you could.

look at pornography something go to bed. and that's your day and that's your. existence and you're just sort of this. thing. But there's so much we're supposed to be. so much more than that. I think some of. it has become almost just this habit. that we don't even know that we're in. >> Yeah, I could see that and. >> yeah, and I'm not preaching to anybody. I think it's just like. I don't know, just the. like the awareness that you could be in. something and not realize it is. something kind of wild. You know. >> Yeah, I think that's that's that's. absolutely true and um.

>> What are some what are. I want to ask you outside of Valor cuz. you run Valor Recovery. That's your. program. And um. And thank you so much. I know there was. a lot of guys like who kind of came in. through through the podcast who you were. like were trying to help and offer. um. uh recovery to. So, thank you so much. for having conversations with those guys. over the years. Um. >> And by the way, so many of those guys. are killing it right now. Yes, they are. And I'm going to say this to you because.

it needs to be heard. There are so many men. that because of your vulnerability on. this podcast talking about your. challenges around that gave them the. courage to reach out and ask for help. >> Nice. >> So, your vulnerability is a gift to this. world. >> Well, thank you. I appreciate that. >> Yeah. >> Uh Yeah, sometimes it's scary to be. vulnerable. I don't know. It's not. scary. It's like, I don't know. I don't. know any other way to live, really. >> Mhm. >> You know?

I don't think I know any other way to. live. I don't know. I don't know. Sometimes I'm a think I. share too much, probably, but. >> Well, I can tell you as it relates to. this topic, I can't tell you how many conversations. we've had, in the thousands now, where. the conversation starts, "Theo said it was okay to talk about. this.". I've shared those stories with you over. the years. >> Yeah, I know you have. I appreciate it. >> That's important, man.

>> Yeah. >> stuff. What a gift. >> Yeah, it's I uh. Yeah, I mean, it makes it's it's tough. to know that a lot of people are. hurting, you know? It's tough to know. that I that I we've all hurt. You know? It's tough to know some most. of the people that I love the most have. have. have hurt. A lot of us, you know? Me included. >> Mhm. >> Um. and we didn't just end up, you know, Yeah, I'm just glad I've met a lot of. good guys through through uh recovery.

You know? Uh well, there wouldn't be a. program, you know, if you didn't do it. >> That's right. And that's the great thing. about recovery is you can live a life. that's superior to the life you were. living. >> Yeah, that's the truth. >> That's the beauty of it. >> Yeah. >> And so, not easy sometimes to get there, but if you stay the course, you don't. give up, you keep leaning into this, you're going to build a life that brings. you joy, where you don't need to engage. in behaviors to numb the pain that.

you're in. It's a process. >> Yeah. What what are some of the triggers that. you see uh. that you notice? Is that okay to ask. you? >> Yeah, I can know there's just a. patterns, right? So many men struggle. with profound loneliness and boredom. They're disconnected, they're alone. And. so, when you look at these urges, right? There's tends to be a predictability to. when you're vulnerable to them, right? So, late at night, scrolling on your. phone. Dude, leave the phone don't bring.

the phone in the bedroom. >> Yeah, shut it down. >> Simple fix. Well, Steve, I work all week. long, Friday nights I'm by myself, and. there's just this period of time right. now of unstructured time where I'm. really vulnerable. Okay, let's make a. plan around that. Why don't you Why. don't you book dinner? Why don't you. book in the the evening with a friend of. yours, so you're not alone right now. Make some a dinner date with a friend. right now. Get out of the house, right? And so, there's just these patterns that. men experience as relates to stress,

boredom, and loneliness. >> Mhm. >> And so, when you pull up and kind of. look at this stuff, right? And learn. from this stuff, you can Men don't plan. to fail, they fail to plan. >> Mhm. >> And so, working with people that. understand this can go a long way to. putting you on the path to being. successful. >> Amen, man. Yeah. >> The other thing that's really tricky. today is social. >> for a walk with a friend. Just go for a. walk. >> Dude. >> Dude, my best times. >> Maybe we'll go for a walk after this, me. and you. >> Yeah.

>> I'll go for a walk with you. >> You got little time? >> No, I'll make time. >> I'd love it, dude. >> Yeah, bro. Thank you, bro. Dude, there's. nothing better than going for a walk. with one of your friends. It might seem. like And even if y'all are straight, y'all can do it. >> Even if not straight, you can do it. >> But some of that stuff got hijacked by. the gay community, I think. Like, just. going for a walk with your buddy. I'm. not saying it did. >> Yeah. >> But it got slightly hijacked. >> Just a Just a Just a hint. >> Yeah, we [clears throat] got to take our. We got to take our pedestrian rights. back. Um. But anyway, what were we What were we. saying? >> talking about triggers. >> Oh, yeah. So, that's one for me. I'll.

notice things that would lead me to do. masturbation or be touching my body. sometimes like that, looking at. pornography. Stress, right? >> Mhm. >> I'm up later than I need to be. A lot of. times I'll have to deal with myself. I. will plan to go to bed, [ __ ] will. happen, [ __ ] will happen with work. Next. thing you know, I'm up 45 minutes later. I can't handle it, right? So, now it's. like I got to go to sleep. I'll think. that masturbation will help me go to. sleep, right? Um. What else? Uh. >> Social media. >> Yeah, social media just I know that I. know that that keeps me up late. So, I I.

I don't I do a pretty good job of that. >> Mhm. >> Of like I know now when I when I open up. there's nothing super good in there. >> Mhm. >> You know? I'll maybe say like, all. right, I'm going to over 30 seconds. If I find one thing that's kind of. engaging and I'm shutting it down. I'm. starting [clears throat] to realize that. what a Pandora's Box it is. >> It really is. And you know, the science. will support that. Like these dopamine. spikes from this endless scrolling on. social media. And then you you look at. the sexual content on social media. It. may not be full porn, but it can be.

pretty explicit. >> Yeah. >> And and so, it's a real problem because. it's this funnel. And often time guys in early recovery. get tripped up because they're on. Instagram right now. There's this kind. of image which is a link to an OnlyFans. account and all of a sudden they're back. in the dance. And so, that's really. important. That's kind of, you know, endless scrolling, endless seeking. novelty can be really challenging. >> Because then the alternative the. alternative is though you have to think. about what that is. And you have to plan.

for that in your head. I noticed for. myself, right? So, if I'm not going to. be scrolling, I might just be laying. there in my bed, right? >> And what's wrong with that? >> There's nothing wrong with it. But at. first it can feel a little bit. uncomfortable. Oh, I should be doing. something. Those are the feelings I go. through. I should be doing something, right? And, you know, you're like, well, what would that be? So, at first it's a little tough. Now, sometimes my mind will start to just. imagine or think of things, which is. kind of nice, right? Like if it's not. negative stuff, it's like my mind it's. like daydreaming or something. It used.

to be something people did a lot, daydreaming. But so, that can happen or I can read or. I can just go to sleep. but there is a. little bit of like a uncomfortable. moment sometimes where it's like, "Ah, I should be doing something.". >> [clears throat]. >> But I don't really I'm not really. playing. I don't really mean I should be doing. something. I mean I'm usually mean I. should just be looking at something on. my phone. >> Can you tolerate the boredom in that. moment or do you need to go get a quick. fix? >> If I do I'm doing meditation pretty. regularly now. So I'm having a little. bit more tolerating more toleration with.

it. >> It's important. >> Yeah, I'm a little bit more toleration. with it. >> the this short-form videos, these kind. of quick fixes on all these social media. is such a distraction. >> Yeah. >> Right? And so getting time away from. your phone. >> Oh, yeah. That's key. >> Long-form reading. Hobbies, creativity, working on. projects, I think are so healthy for. you. >> Yeah, I think yeah, doing things, building a little birdhouse, doing. something like that, getting excited. about leap year, just doing regular.

[ __ ] you know? Huh? >> leap year? >> We'll never know, bro, because before. you know it is gone. >> [laughter]. >> That's right. >> That's how it is, bro. >> That's right. I missed a lot of leap. years over the years. >> Who who hasn't, twin? Um. Let's look at some of the stats. What. did you have, Trev? I want to get a. little bit of information here. Um. I want to say this just so people to. give a little bit more context to. pornography overall. Uh Pornhub was the. fifth most visited website in the world. by December 2020. Just so people don't.

think that we are at war, right? Some. people think like, "Oh, America, we're. safe. We're not we're. we're at war. Um. Pornhub had about 170 million visits per. day and 62 billion visits per year. And that was uh 2020. Um the amount of content uploaded to. Pornhub in a single year would take. about 169 years to watch if you played. the videos back to back. Um. And and this was this was some. information because there's sometimes. that you're watching stuff on there.

where the people in it have not. consented to it being put online. >> Mhm. Some or that it was even recorded and. sometimes that it's not um. that they haven't consented even. to the sex in the video, right? The. Broward County, Florida case, this was a. case a 15-year-old girl missing for a. year was found only after a Pornhub user. recognized her and tipped off her. mother. Police eventually found her in. 58 monetized videos on the site.

So just to know how Pornhub is okay with. operating. Laila Mickelwait, who came on here and. she's has done a great job with exposing. the porn industry. um. for the negative aspects of it. The. London Sunday Times investigation. reporters are able to find dozens of. illegal videos on the site within. minutes including videos of children as. young as three. that were on. on Pornhub. Um. so just to let you know like the kind of. stuff that can be happening on there.

Oh nice, so Laila tested that. Oh, at the time Laila tested the upload. flow to just see how easy it was to just. put something up. All it took to upload. a video was an email address, there was. no ID or age verification, no consent. verification required for people in the. videos. Huh. Anyone with a smartphone could upload a. video in under 10 minutes from anywhere. in the world. So. anyway, it just gives a little more. context to what we're even watching cuz.

sometimes you're looking at something. and you don't even really know what it. is. >> Or where it came from. >> Or where it came from, right? And if you. can add some context to it, it makes it. a little bit different. >> Yeah, so many of those people are been. either physically or sexually abused in. their childhood. Right, have been trafficked. This is not. sometimes this is non-consent. and uh. there's just a gross element to a lot of. it. >> There is and you get try you kind of to. tricked in a little I think in a way. You don't maybe realize it. I don't. know. Especially if you're if you're. kind of susceptible. Um.

Oh, yeah, this right here. I remember. this. Visa and MasterCard suspend. payments for ad purchases on Pornhub and. MindGeek amid controversy. Um. Visa and MasterCard said Thursday card. payments for advertising on Pornhub and. its parent company MindGeek would be. suspended after a lawsuit stoked. controversy over whether the payments. giants could be facil- facilitating. child pornography. Uh. Visa condemns sex trafficking, sexual. exploitation, and child sexual abuse.

It is illegal and Visa does not permit. the use of our network for illegal. activity. Because Visa was was being. accepted on these websites. So, it's kind of crazy. It's like, okay. So, you're saying that if this is. happening on these websites, then you're. okay with your. >> kind of complicit. >> Right. You're kind of complicit. Give me. an update on that if you can. And who. owns MindGeek changed to Aylo? I. remember it that aylo. Who owns that. company? >> Ethical Capital Partners.

>> [laughter]. >> Of course they do. Of course they do. >> Unbelievable. Parent organization is. Ethical Capital Partners. Key ECP. leadership is Fadi Mansour, a managing. partner, Rocco Meiliandro, and Solomon. Friedman. Um. Through its parent company, ECP owns. some of the most highly trafficked. digital networks in the adult. entertainment industry, including. Pornhub, RedTube, YouPorn, Brazzers, and. men.com. Find photos of these guys if. you can, just so we can put the faces.

with uh just who they are. And that's. all according to what site? >> Wikipedia. >> Okay, that's all Google and Wikipedia. So, um. Yeah, give me pictures of those three. guys. Let's put them up, just so people. know who is. who feels like it's okay, you know? And I do want to say most recently I saw. there was a there was an article there. was a story I saw where, um, one of the financial companies failed to. stop a payment for, was it OnlyFans? It. was something that was.

Mastercard, Visa failed to stop payments. on OnlyFans for child sex abuse content, says a whistleblower. Let me see. Mastercard and Visa failed. to stop their payment networks from. laundering proceeds from child sex abuse. material and sex trafficking on the. popular website OnlyFans, according to. allegations in a previously undisclosed. whistleblower whistleblower complaint. complaint filed with the US Treasury's. financial crimes unit. Um, the complaint. was filed in January 2023. The complaint. said the whistleblower and other. anti-trafficking experts, including US.

federal agents, alerted Visa and. Mastercard to unlawful content on. OnlyFans in a series of calls in 2021. and 2022. The federal agents. corroborated the presence of child. sexual abuse material on OnlyFans. The. complaint said it also drew heavily on a. 2022 study by an anti-trafficking group. that said it had found a high volume of. OnlyFans accounts with common indicators. of child sexual abuse material or sex. trafficking. The whistleblower said he. helped with the study, which was shared. with the card companies.

Um, in the interview, the whistleblower. said the agencies never contacted him to. discuss his complaint. The card. companies had the power to turn off the. switch to stop illicit material from. being monetized. So, there's just, you know, it goes to. that place, I guess there's like a. there's a business element to it. A Visa spokesperson said financial. institutions and merchants that don't. comply with Visa's robust compliance. requirements will be terminated from its. network. The company uses best-in-class. controls to deter, detect, and remediate.

illegal activity. If there's anything else I should add in. there, let me know. Um, since the whistleblower complaint was. filed, Reuters uncovered more. allegations of child sexual abuse and. sex trafficking on OnlyFans, a. porn-driven site that generates money. through subscriptions and pay-per-view. content. Huh. I mean, think those companies are also. so big. I bet it's so hard to. police everything. >> Sure. >> And that was just a complaint, Trevin? >> That's right, not a ruling. Um but it was officially filed. It's on.

the record. >> Okay, got it. Okay, thank you so much. Um. tell me a little bit about um. Valor Recovery. And this this episode. was not intended at all to be an ad for. your company or anything like that. But. um. you know, this is just such a thing and. you're the guy that I know and we've. been friends for so long. Um but tell me. about Valor and thank you for starting. it. >> Yeah, thank you. Uh Valor Recovery is a. company I founded many years ago now. that helps men that are struggling with. pornography abuse and sexual. compulsivity.

Uh it's a virtual program. You know, what we have found over the years is so. many men struggle getting help for this, finding the right type of help. Um using. community-based resources are. challenging because of shame and stigma. >> Like, what do you mean by that? Like, going to a meeting locally? >> meeting locally, um going to a program. locally. People are just uh they're so. concerned, given the nature of this, and.

they don't take advantage of those. resources. So, creating a virtual. program that can be accessible with a. click of a button, right, is amazing, right? And offering something that's. more discreet just helps guys feel more. comfortable getting help. And so, virtual program, it's a coaching. program. And the thing that's really. unique about that, what we have found is. so many men. uh benefit from coaching on this topic, different than therapy. Therapy's very. valuable as well, but coaching is around.

accountability, setting goals, learning. new skills, and practicing those skills. so you think and feel differently about. yourself over time. >> Got it. Yeah, you have to put something. on the other side of the scale. That's. one thing I've learned in recovery. I'm. not saying I do it all the time. >> Mhm. >> But. you you you can't just. you have you have to put something on. the other side of the scale that has. valuable weight to it. >> I think that's right. And so. you know, the program is unique. One of.

the unique aspects around it, everyone. that works at Valor Recovery is in. long-term sexual recovery. So they these are men that have 10. years, 20 years, in several cases 30. years of sexual sobriety. >> Wow. >> Why is that important? It's just the. shared life experience puts us in a very. unique position to help people, to. understand people, cuz we've been there. We are you. So collectively this team. has helped thousands of people over. their lifetimes deal with these. challenges. Right? So that's really. important.

>> Mhm. >> Uh it's a program that really uh is set. up with small intimate groups so that. men learn to be part of a community. >> Got it. >> Men learn to how to connect with each. other. You know, the opposite of. addiction is often not recovery. It's. often said to be connection. And so. we're a program that offers small group. settings, process groups, there's. curriculum around, you know, how to deal. with urges and triggers, identify root. causes that are driving compulsions, you know, curriculum around healthy.

intimacy, healthy sexuality, and healthy. masculinity. >> Amen. >> And so we've had a lot of men come to. this program and get better. Something. we take a lot of pride in. Now, it's not. easy work. I can promise you that. It's. not easy work, but we take a lot of. pride in helping men become the men God. intended them to be. >> Amen. >> And I whatever that word God means to. you, higher self, whatever that is, we. help men and put them in alignment with. their higher self so they can go on and. do good things in their lives.

>> Are there guys or women out there. >> Mhm. >> who may not have a problem specifically. with porn, but is there other things they could be. having a problem with? >> Yeah. I think what what you're what. you're asking me is if the. can people be suffering from other. behaviors. other than pornography. >> that could be having the same outcome. for them. >> That's correct. >> Yeah, that's what I'm asking you. >> is it relationship compulsivity, infidelity in relationships, prostitution? I mean, there's just a. host of behaviors that can manifest.

itself. uh that are just really unhealthy for. people. And so, man or woman, doesn't. necessarily have to be pornography. Um. and so, the answer is yes. And there are just a lot of great. resources out there for both men and. women to deal with these issues, whether. it's working with a therapist that may. be trained in sexual compulsivity or sex. addiction. There are great 12-step. programs out there, different. fellowships for men and women, Sex.

Addicts Anonymous, Sex and Love Addicts. Anonymous, Sexaholics Anonymous, uh that men and women that are. community-based 12-step based programs. that could be really valuable. They're. great. >> Adult Children of Alcoholics. Sorry to. interrupt you. I just don't want to. forget. There's a lot of important Yeah, people. don't realize that there's things out. there that it's like you might be like, "Well, I'm not this. I don't have this, but maybe my parent did and you lived in. the shadows of it or you lived there as. a recipient of the byproducts of it." Um. there's recovery stuff for that. And.

we're not saying everybody needs. recovery, but we're saying that this. some of this stuff is a big issue that's. facing people and we both struggle with. it, so [ __ ] other people might. >> And that's right. And I think the one. thing you can listen to this is not a. life sentence, not a death sentence, man. You can get better, for sure. You. can actually get better and you can live. that life that you've dreamed of. It's. going to take work, but there are great. people out there to help you. >> Yes. >> And so, if you're struggling, I mean, have the courage to reach out. and get some help. >> Yeah. And we'll put links to like uh.

Valor, we'll put links to um. sex and love addiction intimacy disorder. anonymous just give will put a link to. to some of those things in this so. people can check it out. There's like. some online like. Zoom sex addiction meetings that you can. go to. Can I share that out publicly? Yeah, there's those meetings you can go. to you can just sit with your camera off. and just listen and and see what it's. like see how people are sharing and see. what's going on. Yeah, just want to know that that. stuff's out there. I think sometimes.

people don't even know that it's out. there. I didn't know it existed. You. know, until you get in a certain places. and you're like, you know, I was. realizing I was just having such a tough. time in relationships and a relationship. with myself. It was like. it was so hard for me to get to know. myself without like um. I always feel like I had to just prove. who I was even to me. Like almost every day it was like. yeah. It was like if I didn't.

I had to do something to show you who I. was. I couldn't just be, right? Um I've had like that love What's it. called love attraction love avoidance? What is it? But what is it when you it's like come. here go away or whatever that thing? >> Not sure. >> It's like come here go away. I would. have whatever that [ __ ] was, bro. >> Sounds awful. >> Yeah. Oh, but it was a. it was a lot of my relationships. >> Yeah. >> It was like hey, I need you over here or. I want to be with you but then when. second somebody got close I could I I. just like.

>> That's right. And then for a lot of guys there's kind. of sexual anorexia. >> What is that? >> I mean they just a complete avoidance of. all sex. >> Oh, I thought you're starving so you. have sex or whatever. >> [laughter]. >> Good hamburger, you know, no. >> That's how that American Pie scene came. to be. >> Sexual anorexia is a term coined in 1975. by psychologist Nathan Hare to describe. a fear or deep aversion to sexual. activity. It is considered a loss of. appetite for sexual contact conduct and. may result in a fear of intimacy.

May result in a fear of intimacy or an. aversion to any type of sexual. interaction. >> And the compulsive non-sex. is an addiction of it itself. Right? And. so you just think about like, you know, what we are striving for. Right? It's a. version of healthy sexuality that works. for you. >> Yeah. >> And so many guys get into recovery and. then that's it. I've stopped these. behaviors. And they can go for a while, but they're kind of unhappy and. miserable.

So unless you kind of lean in and. challenge yourself to date, companionship, connection, healthy sex, that's what recovery is about. That's. how you put these behaviors in the. rearview mirror and never look back. You have to replace it with something. that brings you more joy and purpose. >> Amen. Yeah. And a lot of times that will happen. because you're. the way the program's set up. It's like. you interact with more people, you say. yes to more things. It's like, you know,

so it's like it can that. >> And it's easier to say yes when you're. not full of shame. >> Oh, for sure. >> When you're feeling better about. yourself cuz you're not putting that. junk in your system with consistency, you know, it just gives you. uh your ability to show up as the best. version of yourself. kind of happens over time. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's a learning process, man. >> Yeah. >> And the thing is the program's always. there. So if you if if something happens. or something, you know what I'm saying? If you have a setback or whatever is. going on, it's always there. It's there.

It's like unconditional. >> Mhm. >> That's pretty cool. >> It is great. >> That's like that. Oh, here's a summary of Hal Shorey's. Come Here, Go Away: The Dynamics of. Fearful Attachment. >> Wow. >> I think this is what I had. Uh. >> Past tense? >> Fearful attachment. Yeah, I don't think. I have this anymore. >> Nice. >> Which is it's kind of crazy. It's like. now I feel like. I used to never think I would dude it's. so funny when I was a kid this is true. and when I was even a teen and young. adult I didn't understand how people.

could be married. It didn't even make. sense to me. >> Yeah. >> at a level of like human affection. >> Mhm. >> Like I don't even understand. I remember. I'd go watch people's families eat. dinner and [ __ ] I'd go sit in like watch. Peeping Tom and or whatever, right? >> Yeah. >> Cuz it was it was like a four I didn't. even understand it. >> Well, what was modeled to you in your. childhood home? Now you understand it. >> Nothing. >> There it is. >> I mean nothing. In fact the opposite. So. like.

>> of nothing. >> Yes. >> Less than nothing. >> Less than nothing dude. Some weird. integer. >> [laughter]. >> But dudes I can't but at the time I. didn't even know what I was I didn't. even know what I was doing. >> Mhm. >> But I was just so like. it was like it was like watching. somebody find something I don't know see. something foreign. >> Mhm. >> And then. uh. and then slowly over time it made sense. to me and then there was like times. where I was like I'm going to the first. time. that I thought I wanted to have a. family. >> Mhm.

>> Bro it blew my mind. I'd never felt that in my life. You know? >> wait till you get married and have a. kid. >> Yeah, we got to get it out there boy. >> I cannot wait. You're going to ex just. hey you're going to be you have a heart. as big as any person I know. >> Thanks bro. >> And the more that you get comfortable. showing that side of you to a woman and. build a life right now with that person. my goodness. Going to be incredible to be part of.

>> Yeah, we going to have to get a camper. dude. We have to hit the road. >> That's it. >> Yeah, take that love on the road. brother. But no I feel you man. Thank. you bro. >> Yeah. >> Like yeah my first instinct is to kind. of joke sometimes when things get. serious or something and I used to be. that way all the time. Now I'm not that. way you know there's times where I can. be in the of those spaces, but dude, I. remember the first time I thought, man, I would like that. >> Yeah. >> It blew my mind. But it's all because of just. things I've learned in meetings over. time, you know? Things that there's that.

there's. a different way. Right? Um. Yeah, what would you say somebody out. there who's thinking, I think this is. me, right? We're talking about porn. addiction or some of this intimacy. stuff. Yeah, what what can they do to. start getting some help? >> Yeah, there there are lots of great. resources out there. >> And we'll put Valor, too. >> Valor Recovery is a great resource out. there. Uh happy to talk to anybody. listening here to see if there's a way. we can help you. Happy to refer you to other programs as. well if you need a higher level of care,

right? There are great therapists out. there, there's great 12-step communities. out there. I think anybody that. listening to this, the one thing I hope. is that you have the courage to reach. out and ask for help. >> Amen, bro. >> That's it. Dude, and I want to say this. I want to. say thank you. There was like I have. received messages from so many guys that. said, I called and I talked to Steve. I. like he had he like. you know, a lot of places that's not the. thing. >> No, I promised you early on. I promised.

you. I made a promise to you that I was. going to handle your people that called. me on a podcast myself personally. >> Yeah. >> And I did. >> I appreciate that. >> I did. It was important and I, you know, it was it was the. rewarding. I learned so much about how. these men are hurting and struggling. and uh I also learned so much on how. important your voice is. in these men's lives. And so, keep doing what you're doing, brother.

>> Well, thanks, man. Yeah, I yeah, we're just learning as we. go, you know? And we don't have to do it. alone. >> No. >> So, I haven't had to do it alone with. this show. This show helped me not be. alone. This show gave me something to. do, like. you know, there were times I probably. would have been using or doing things. that I, you know, like. there's times it hasn't saved me from. that, but there's been so many times. where it has, you know? Where it gave me. like some sense of like value or. uh purpose. >> Yeah. >> Even sometimes. >> Your your voice matters, man.

>> And sometimes not even my voice, just. listening. Just being somebody like I learned that. at sometimes. Sometimes I still make. mistakes on it, but let me just listen. so other people can listen. >> Yeah, beautiful. >> You know? And I don't mean that in any egotistical. way. I just feel like it's just been. like. yeah, I think when I was little I just. wanted to have a voice. Like I just. like I wanted like. yeah, I was just I think when I was. really young I was in so much pain.

and. just nobody could hear me, you know? And I didn't even know what was wrong. I just knew that it hurt. And then yeah, you get to like. uh. and that's all I wanted and God helped. me have that, you know? And so it's been like. >> It's not by accident you're here. >> Yeah. >> We all have this belief like some reason. like going to it should have looked. differently. It should be different than. it than it was. And the truth is it all. happened exactly the way it had to.

happen to be here right now, right? I. look back at my history and like oh my. god, like that should have looked all. the money that I wasted on drugs or. crazy behaviors. Well, if I had $1 more, maybe I would have bought that line of. coke that had fentanyl. If I had $1 more, perhaps. I don't meet my wife, have my son, or. start Valor Recovery. So who am I to go back and say this. should have looked differently? Everything I went through I had to go. through to be here right now. The only.

way to put purpose to your pain is to. have lived through that pain. I think that's what you just shared. >> Thanks, man. Yeah, amen. I'm glad you. did, bro. I'm glad you stayed the. course. >> Yeah, me too. >> Yeah? I really am, man. I was super am. Mike. Tyson said that same thing, man, when I. talked to him. He [snorts] just said, man, I wouldn't. trade any of it. >> Mhm. As painful as parts of his were, as. disgraceful as parts of it were, you. know, I had to go through all of it to.

be the man I am today. >> Yeah. It's kind of crazy. I mean, it's yeah. I. mean, it's unbelievable, really. >> of crazy. >> Yes. >> It's kind of crazy. You had to go. through everything you I know a lot. about your childhood. I know a lot about. your life, right? It. it prepared you for this moment. So, it's crazy to go back and think, oh, it should have looked differently. >> That's a good point, huh? Wow, I think sometimes it's tough to. yeah, you're so right. And sometimes I. still will think that.

I don't know if I still will think that, but I still will suffer some of like. there's still like some old pain that. flares up. >> Me, too. Me, too. >> And people sometimes will be like, you. have to get over you have to get rid of. that. And it's like you can, but. sometimes it's it's still a real thing. It's like. just because you forgive and you move on. doesn't mean that there's sometimes. still not some [ __ ] that hurts. >> That's right. And both things can be. true. You could be living a good life. and still be hurting at times from your. past. >> Yeah. >> It's not either or, it's yes and.

>> Yeah. I agree with you, man. >> There's this idea in recovery that, you. know, everything is rainbows and. unicorns. Well, yeah, that's not life. That's not life. >> Yeah. >> Right? Part of life is discomfort. Part. of life is. being uncomfortable. >> Yeah, they and I wish they kind of would. have told us that. >> Would you have joined if you That was. the sales pitch. >> That's a good point, though. >> [laughter]. >> If you If they would have told It's such. a It's such a Here's the deal, dude. You're not really going to feel that. much better about yourself, but come on. in, try this. I'm not sure that's a good.

selling point. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, dude, they just show you future. and it's just you like you're just. crying behind a Winn-Dixie in your in. your truck. >> Geez. You got to do a better way of. selling me on this recovery thing than. that. >> Dude, that's so true, bro. Um We had some calls, man. These are. calls we have a hotline here on. 985-664-9503. That's the hotline. We're coming up on. 10 years, I think we've had this. podcast. When did this podcast start? >> December. >> Of 2016? >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Incredible. >> That's crazy, man.

>> Incredible. >> In your place in LA? >> Yeah. >> Incredible. >> In my kitchen over there in Westwood. >> We put those curtains up. Shout out to. my ex-girlfriend Megan who. would put up with me and when I would. sh- you know, it'd be like our one night. of the week to spend together and I. would. you know, I would spend it doing this. >> Yeah. >> And then like getting a bed like you. know, just. you know. >> She was such a nice person. >> I know. She's the best. >> Yeah. >> She's the best. >> Mhm. >> Um. Let's play a couple calls that have come.

in on the hotline. And. uh. This this may sound weird because it's. like we're like one of those call-in. shows where we're like experts. We're. not experts. We don't know anything. We're just two guys who are surviving. and doing our best. Steve's doing better. than me. Um. but let's play some of those calls if we. can, please. Steve, if you'll sit here. >> Sure. >> Thanks, man. >> Hey Theo, this is Siege from New Mexico. and I just want to say, man, you've been. help- you've been.

a great help. And uh not going to lie, I'm kind of drunk right now. It's like. 12, you know, it's afternoon. It's about. 1:10 or whatever. But I just want to. seek your advice on some [ __ ] Uh. you know, I've been uh. addicted to. porn and masturbation my entire life and. that led me to being addicted to. alcohol. >> Mhm. >> And a way to cope, maybe. I don't know, but uh. you know, I was texting these Filipino.

ladies on some [ __ ] app. and uh it turned into me sending them. money, and they sent me nudes, and then. it turns out it was all a scam. Obviously, I should have known that, and. I did know it before I even. went into it, but uh I don't even know. if I'm addicted. I've been on a. 7-month 7-month bender. I think I've. only missed 4 days. of uh drinking alcohol within the last 7. months. >> Hey, Siege. Thanks for the call, man. Um. yeah, I would just appreciate you. sharing so honestly. Um Steve, what do you think is like can.

addictions jump from one to the next? What have you noticed about that? That's. kind of the thing that I'm taking away. from just listening to this. And thank. you, Siege, bro. And just thanks for. being honest, and um I think I'm going. to let Steve kind of share some of his. insights here. >> I I You see that with frequency, just. the relationship between alcohol and. drugs and compulsive porn use. And so, making recovery difficult. You. know, that was the case for me, but I. had a history of porn abuse, but also. challenges with cocaine and alcohol, and. um hard. Really hard.

>> Yeah, cuz it'll be the one you one can. cause the other. >> Chicken or the egg. >> Yeah. >> Chicken or the egg. And how many guys. kind of uh because they're hung over. turn to porn to try to feel better. How many guys kind of make a bad. decision, like he did, reaching out, giving money to this scam, because he's. under the influence of alcohol or drugs? It's just really hard. And in one of the. thing that he highlighted, these scams, how often we hear guys kind of being. blackmailed. because they got caught up reaching out. to people. There's photos, there's.

information. It's dark stuff. It's. really dark stuff. So, sounds like this. person can really benefit with you know, getting help. And the Here's the truth, you know, um. sometimes it's hard to address all this. at once. >> Right. >> And so, maybe you you pick one. And maybe you start with alcohol. And. say, "Okay, I'm having sh- I'm having. some issues with alcohol. What can I do. to get help?" I mean, I'm a huge fan, as. are you, Alcoholics Anonymous. Great resource right there. Often times,

you see guys kind of pouring new spike. in early recovery coming off alcohol. because it's just a way to numb. >> Oh, yeah. I've had issues where it's. like I don't want to uh. engage in certain behaviors, so I'll. even masturbate to keep myself away from. those behaviors. >> Mhm. >> It's like sometimes you're. you know, you're cutting off a chicken. to save the horse or whatever it's. called. >> I'd like to think of it as harm. reduction. >> Yeah, harm reduction. That's what I'm. saying. >> Nothing wrong with that. >> Yeah. >> Nothing wrong with that. Especially, you. know, often times, even with sexual. recovery, sometimes you get sober off.

more detrimental behaviors first. You. know, if a guy has issues with uh a. married guy and you're dealing with. things that might end the marriage, infidelity, strip clubs, or a host of. those behaviors. You know, getting sober. off those first can be critically. important. And then, over time, explore. your relationship with porn and. masturbation. Often times, porn and. masturbation can be a harm reduction. tool not to engage in more harmful. behaviors. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's And it's all a process. And.

the good thing is, even if you just go. to AA, bro, you go to a 12-step, you. start learning about this. You start. getting into the world of it. You know, or if you go to like a SLA Zoom. >> Mhm. >> Or if you call and talk to someone that. works over at Valor, it's like, you know, you just start to get into the. world of realizing that there's some. hope for whatever is going on. >> Well, this guy You're not alone. >> Yeah, that's my part. You're not alone, man. >> You're You're not alone. I mean, you're. looking at two guys right here who are. You're not alone. Yeah.

>> I know, man. You're not alone. And. anything is possible. >> That's right. >> You know, anything is still possible. >> going to quote one line that I hear you. say you say all the time. Nothing changes. if nothing changes. >> Nothing changes. >> Yeah. And guess what? I learned that in the. >> That's right. So, whatever you do. something. Don't do nothing. >> Yeah. >> I can guarantee that one way nothing. will improve is doing nothing. >> Yeah, that's [laughter] for sure. >> I mean, this ain't rocket science. >> Oh, dude, I've walked into some meeting. rooms and be five like and then 10 years.

later walked in again. >> That's right. >> Walked in and said, "Man, I think I need this, but I'm not sure.". 10 years later I'm back. 5 years later. I'm back. You hear that all the time of. guys like, "I knew 15 years ago there. was something wrong.". >> Mhm. >> And I didn't I I didn't step all the way. in. >> It's okay. >> Yeah, it's okay. >> You're now. >> It takes what it takes. That's what they. say, too. >> That's right. >> It takes what it takes. Um. Let's take another call. Thank you, Siege, bro. >> Hey, Theo. This is Ashley.

Um. I just wanted to call, I guess, and get. some advice about my relationship. My boyfriend. of almost 2 years now, um struggles a. lot with. lust and not. >> Lust? >> being able to control himself when it. comes to. looking at porn or OnlyFans and things. like that. And.

I love him so much. And I just. wanted to get your advice on. if you think men can change. >> That's nice. That's thoughtful of her to. call. >> Mhm. What came up for you when you heard. that? >> Uh. Just I thought it was nice how much she. cares. >> Mhm. >> That she chose to call. I First of all, I believe her. >> Mhm. >> Sometimes you get a lot of calls you. say, you know, I don't know if this.

person's realistic or not, but I just. for for to me, I felt like she was. genuine about it. Um. And it was kind of and it and can people. change? [clears throat] She didn't. really make it about her. >> Mhm. >> You know, and she said about lust, like. she understands the bigger picture of. it. So, it's obvious that she's put up. some attention towards it to maybe even. look go search and look online and see. if see some ideas or read up on it or. something cuz it's not just like, "Hey, this guy's watching porn." It's like he. has a problem with lust. And it's fascinating to think about. lust.

What do you think like when she says. that like what do you kind of think. Steve? Like what is that about? Like. >> Well, first thing I felt was she was. sharing. I felt first thing I felt was a. little sadness. >> Oh, yeah. I did feel some sadness for. her. I know she's going through a tough. time. And thank you Ashley for calling. Sorry, I should have I should have said. that first. >> Thinking about her boyfriend, the. behaviors that she actually knows that. he's engaging in are leading him down. just a a dark path. And and so, first. thing I was thinking about is wow. she.

>> [clears throat]. >> um. I hope she has to be able to take care. of herself. Mhm. You know, often times. uh you know, we we focus so much on. trying to get the significant other some. help, which is important. Directing him. to really good resources out there if he. wants to get better. Does he recognize. this as a problem? And if he does, you. know get him some help that cuz guys can. get better and your relationship uh can. thrive at some point time in the future. as he does the work and hopefully you. guys get to do the work together and.

grow closer together. Doesn't always. work that way, but there are some. countless amazing stories where a. couple's kind of do the work and their. relationship gets better than it ever. was before. >> Mhm. That's the truth. >> That's the truth. That's the truth. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way, but my as she was sharing, I just hope. she's got a a place to go, a person to. talk to, perhaps a therapist that she. can just share, find ways to take care. of herself in the process right now. >> Yeah. >> And she stays on this journey.

>> Yeah, and you know what? Sometimes it's. like the first time you have a real. intimate conversation with somebody. >> Mhm. >> You know, I was at a meeting the other. day, and my friends and I were talking. and. they were saying after like, "Dude, we. never even really talk like this.". >> [clears throat]. >> You know? And I was like, "Fuck A, A, like. recovery gave me the. I've been waiting my whole life to talk. about something that meant something.". >> It gave you like the language, too. Like, what Think about growing up, where. like the kind of man rules, right? Men.

don't cry. Men are tough, right? If. you're sensitive, you are a fill in the. blank. Yeah. And and so all of a sudden. >> see a Ford Festiva, you got to yell [ __ ]. down the street or. >> Something like that. Yeah. And so not a. Mustang. And. >> not a Mustang. It's not a Mustang, dude. >> And so, you know, so for so many men, right? You know, where did we learn. how to be vulnerable? Where is it a safe. place to be vulnerable? To be sensitive? >> Yeah. >> The truth of the matter is, I'm a very. sensitive guy.

A lot of men in recovery or dealing with. addiction are very sensitive men. And. for so much of my life, I tried to hide. >> Mhm. >> that part of me, thinking it was a. weakness. >> Yeah. >> And I used drugs, I acted out in certain. ways to numb the pain of that. sensitivity. I can tell you right now, my sensitivity today is a superpower. >> Amen. >> Because it allows me to have empathy. and to feel your experiences and pain.

given where I've been with this. >> Facts, dude. Yeah, man. Facts, bro. And you have the best stories, too, dude. We didn't really tell any of them. today. >> Thank god, because you'd probably have. to filter them out. >> Yeah, I have the best [laughter]. stories, dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we. can even We can take this out, but you. have one story I remember about partying. in so hard in Miami that you and a. friend. went instead of like you guys bought. more drugs and more diapers out on the. dance floor so you didn't have to. >> Yeah. Well, we bought dope. It was.

obviously laced with a laxative and we. had a choice. We had a choice to either throw the. drugs out or make these kind of. makeshift diapers and keep the party. going. Needless to say, you know how that rest. of the story goes. >> Yeah, brother. [laughter]. Just so you guys know, Steve is a real. one. The Steve is a and that's just that is. [laughter] the tip of the Iwo Jima, dude. That's the tip of the iceberg. Steve's a real one. Um.

Oh and what else was she she was asking. about something else she was asking. Oh, do you does she think it's possible for. him to get better, right? Did you did we. answer all that? >> I. I am such a believer in the power of. recovery. >> Yeah, for sure. Yeah, no doubt. This. this whole episode I think could help. could maybe be beneficial to him if you. want to share with him. You can tell him. like it's a just say, "Hey man, Theo, want to you to listen to this um if you. want." I don't know if I know him or not. or if I've ever met him. You know, you meet a lot of people, but. um. uh so.

yeah, just say, "Hey man, hey, this is. something your girlfriend wanted you to. listen to. I've had issues with it. So, if you feel. okay listening to it, then check it. out." So, you can send him that little. clip right there and that can go along. with this episode if you want. Um. And then oh, lust. She talked about. lust. Lust kind of gets hijacked or something, doesn't it? We don't talk about lust too much, do. we? >> Yeah, you know, it's. >> Is it matter or is it just a word?

>> a word, but I'll tell you what's what's. interesting. How many guys come to me and be like, "Steve, you don't understand. I think. I'm just so horny.". Maybe. But what's probably closer to the truth. is you're actually just really. uncomfortable and you've sexualized that. discomfort. >> Oh, yeah. If every time you get. uncomfortable, you end up jerking off or. looking at pornography, then we when you. get uncomfortable, you're like, "Oh, I'm. horny." It's like, no, you're not. >> the two in your brain. And so, you know, and what happens when.

guys get into recovery and get some. time, you know, they stabilize. And they realize that they're not as. horny as they think. >> Yeah. >> Cuz you're no longer using it as a tool. to deal with your emotions. >> Right. Dude, they hijacked us, bro. The devil. hijacked a lot of us, bro. You got to give props to the devil in a. weird way because. check on this one. Yeah, they win this round. >> They won this round. They won this round. They won this.

round. >> Hey, what's going on, Theo? Uh my name. is Donald. Um. so I have a situation. Uh I have a. girlfriend. She's a long distance type. [ __ ]. Yeah, we've been together for 3 years. But for the first year and a half, I. would just I would just, you know, lay that semen around type [ __ ]. Yeah, I was a big infidel. Just cheated on her. I don't know. Stop. Um I told her a couple times, you know,

I uh. made me feel a bit proud of myself, but. um. but yeah, lately, you know, it's been. it's been a while, and I just been. jerking off, to be honest. Um. just been jerking off a couple times a. day, honestly. So, not really sure what your thoughts are. on that. I mean, it's better than. cheating, but, you know, I'm I'm struggling out here. Uh.

yeah, been watching mom porn. Um. that thing. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah, dude. I think we've kind of we've. talked about some of this. Thanks for. calling, bro. Donovan or Jonathan? Um. >> Do- Donald. >> Donald. Okay, thanks for calling, Donald. I didn't know people said the. name Donald, but I'm glad they do. I'm glad they do, bro. And bring it. back. BYOD, bro. What I'm saying is. this, dude, is. um. Yeah, sorry. This whole this this whole. segment to me just feel it feels like. it's very foreign. It feels like.

Here's the energy I don't like, and this. isn't the real energy of it, that we. know something you don't, right? Like. we're just two guys who [ __ ] trying. our best here. Um. But we have shown up a lot to places to. try our best. So, I'll give us a lot of credit with. that. And Steve has done a great job of. like transforming his whole life. Um. [snorts]. Yeah, dude, I just know if you do that, it just weakens the spirit. So, something's uncomfortable in you. Something's uncomfortable in your. spirit. Right?

And you're only going to get clues from. it probably if you stop masturbating and. stuff, you'll start to get some clues. But the tough part is, and this has been. tough for me, the clues get scary, and. it's sometimes it's. it's hard to handle. You don't know. something's off. You know? Sometimes you just want to. scream, and sometimes it's like primal. stuff, you don't know what's going on. And so, you just you sedate yourself. with like pornography or masturbation to. keep yourself at bay. But. um. But it can be different, right, Steve? >> Yeah, what I took from the call was uh.

this kind of idea like. you can't really do this alone. >> Uh yeah, cuz this this dude sounds like. he's pretty capable of getting stuff. done. >> That's right. And he's insightful, he's. honest, but he's running the show. >> Right. >> And so, you know, I I would strongly. suggest to get some help. You know, willpower will will only get you so far. >> Yeah. >> Right? Getting some time to understand. what's driving these behaviors. Get to. the root cause of some of these.

challenges. Get some professional help. Great resource there. Get involved in a. community, a men's group where you can. kind of have some a band of brothers. where you can kind of run stuff by and. talk through these things. Tough to do. this by yourself. >> Yeah. >> What happens is that we 10 years from. now, and you'll still be struggling with. this stuff and you'll just lose time. That's bro, that is the truest thing. If you relate to some of this stuff, if you relate to it at a pretty strong. level where you like, I think I had it.

it does not just go away. >> No. >> I can. there's nothing that's been That's the. most honest thing I could ever tell you. in my whole life. It does not just go away. >> When I started this process, I had a. head of hair like you. And I look at. this thing right now, yeah? You just. lose time, you lose hair. >> [laughter]. >> You look great, man. >> And bro, you've done a great job today, too, dude. >> Yeah, thank you. It's been a pleasure. being here. >> Thank you, bro. Thank you so much just. for being here, for talking about this, man. Some stuff.

it's like I don't know. I just have been. so much more comfortable than I thought. it would be. And I don't even know why I didn't think. it would be, you know? Um all right, let's see let's have one more call that. came in, please. >> Hey, Theo. This is uh. Cody from Florida. And uh. I I I see you're really big on porn. addictions and. that's kind of a weird topic. to get personal about, if you know what. I mean.

Very awkward topic, but. I feel like. I feel like I just lost the love of my. life because of it. >> Mhm. >> I I can't control myself. I I can't. I feel like. just in my generation cuz I I'm I'm 19, man. I'm. >> Mhm. >> I just. I feel like it's so normalized. It's so. routine. It's so normal for me to.

to feel normalized about doing this [ __ ]. and. I just lost. the best thing that's ever happened to. me. She broke up with me, man. >> This is the [ __ ] This is a gooner. national anthem right here. >> me and I can't believe it, bro. Can't stop thinking about it. I can't. stop dreaming about it. I can't. I can't get past the memories that we. had because of my actions. My actions. My actions made me lose it, bro. And I just I just wanted to.

see if I could get some advice from you. >> Yeah, dude. Thanks for calling in about. it, bro. And uh yeah, sorry I was kind. of joking around, dude, but it's real. And it's. And if you really have this porn. addiction, if you related to it enough. you were you kind of called you heard it. and thought about it and called, then it. must have some relative There must be. something inside of you that's. connecting with it, right? If you've. even just heard me talk about it before. cuz today's the most we've ever even. talked about it ever. So, if you're picking up on something.

from the from before, uh. it. it won't get better. You have to have. You got to help it get better, right? So, you got to show up for it and help. it get better and it will get better. And as far as yeah, you might have lost. your girl this situation for now, but you I I I believe you get a second. chances and I believe that you won't. miss out on the next good one. And you will be so grateful down the. line that. you started to solve the solve some of. the issues.

now than waited. That's what I think, man, from my own. experience. >> [snorts]. >> Steve, what do you What do you think? >> I think um. everywhere I go, there I am. Meaning that um. You know, that's just the reality. If I. could date that woman without me, probably be a great experience, but I. bring me to that relationship. So, I. think pain is the cornerstone of. spiritual growth. And what happened happened. Sounds like.

awful, tragic, horrible, but I'll tell. you what what would be really tragic if. you didn't use this moment in time to. get the help you need. Leverage the pain you're in right now to. get the help you need. Really important, right? The gift of. desperation. Don't let this go by and pass and like, "Oh, maybe it wasn't that bad.". Use the pain you're in as leverage. to get help. >> Amen. That's the truth, bro. That's.

Dude, that's cool, dude. Yeah. Yeah, bro. The gift of desperation. >> We both lived it. >> But yeah, thanks Cody for calling in. Um. did we get those three guys, guys, by. chance? We have Accurate shot them. Here we go. right here. These are the Ethical. Capital Partners. This couple of guys right here. There's. the managing partner, Fadi Mansour. Uh Rocco Melia Ambro. And he's definitely been gooning.

And Solomon Friedman. Had a feeling he. was involved. Uh there he is right there. He's the. partner VP compliance. I love how. compliance is part of it. >> I think you know [laughter] what? What. What do you do working at a porn company. for compliance? I'm curious. >> I don't know, dude. [laughter]. I do not know. So, there That's them. right there. Ethical Capital Partners. So, we want to thank those guys for um.

being Basically, they are. uh. Those are your porn Sackler family right. there. That's what I allege that that's. what I call them. That's just my. thoughts. Those are the Sacklers of. pornography right there. Those are good. people. Fadi Mansour, Rocco Melia Ambro, and. Solomon Friedman. Um thank you guys for your service. Uh. Steve Waltman, thank you for your. service, dude. Today is a service call. That's what they say in recovery rooms. if like you you know, you make a service. call on people, you do something.

to be helpful. to the group or to someone. So, >> What a treat to be here. Thank you. >> Dude, what a long journey, huh? >> Yeah, it's only just started. >> Wow, that's the craziest part, bro. And. that's the best attitude to have. Congratulations, man, on starting a. family, on making something real out of. something that was just Like do you look. back sometimes and you're like, I cannot. even believe it? >> I really do. And I just talked to my wife last night. in anticipation of this and I was like,

"I I can't believe I'm here.". Really unfathomable. And how did I get here? Just one day at a time, one step at a. time, taking better making better. decisions. >> Yeah. Anybody can do it, huh? >> 100%. >> You believe that? >> do. >> Yeah, doesn't matter if you have money. or don't money, if you're, you know, in. a wheelchair, if you can't see far, it. doesn't matter. >> No. Anybody can do it as long as you don't. quit before the miracle happens. >> Amen. Steve Olbro, I love you, bro. Thank you.

for being a part of my life, bro. Thank. you for letting me be a part of your. life. Um you showed up for my comedy show when. I came out to Bend, Oregon. We had so. much fun. >> awesome. >> That was cool, dude. >> And uh and you've just been such a light. over the years, dude. We know so many. friends. Most of like the most important people. in my life, uh. you know them. >> That's right. Best friends in the world. that have friends in recovery. >> Oh, dude, nothing nothing better. >> No, amazing human beings, crazy as can. be. They could be decades sober, off. their rockers, incredible and beautiful.

>> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Oh, the good that the good times do not. end, bro. >> No, they don't. >> You finally You always want to know. who's got the best story in the room, dude. You finally get to meet all of. those people. >> That's right. It's good stuff. >> Steve Olbro, Valor Recovery, you guys. can check out his his program. Um if. anything you feel like you can relate. to, uh Steve, I love you, bro. Thank. you, bro. >> Thank you. >> Now I'm just floating on the breeze and. I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I. must be.

cornerstone. [music]. Oh, but when I reach that ground, [music] I'll share this piece of mind I. found. I can feel it. in my bones. But it's going to take.