John Kiriakou | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #661

Today's guest is an author. He's a. speaker. He's a former CIA officer who's. also known for being a whistleblower in. the CIA's use of torture. He has a new. book coming out called The Ultimate. Guide to CIA skills, tactics, and. techniques. Today's guest is Mr. John Kiriakou. >> [music].

>> Yeah, I applied for a presidential. pardon. >> You have You applied for a. a presidential pardon? >> Yeah. Yeah, in fact I I brought a couple. of letters. I. I hope you don't. >> Long as you don't meet me. If I sign. them, it's not going to help anything. I'm just telling you that. [laughter]. >> Oh, okay. I was going to ask if I was. going to ask if you thought it would be. helpful. I got uh. >> Did you really? >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, okay. Dang, I was joking.

>> Oh, no, no, no. I'm talking to Tulsi. Gabbard on Friday. Did I tell you that? >> Oh, nice. Her husband is winning a. surgery today, I saw. I was messaging. with her yesterday. >> She's great. >> Yeah, Tulsi Gabbard, she seems um. she's There's just something about her. that seems genuine to me. >> And and that's why they tried to destroy. her. >> Is that Is that what you think is going. on with her right now? >> why the Democrats tried to destroy her. I really do. >> But even right now, I mean, she's just. taken a leave. I know it's for her. husband's health. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> Oh, yeah, headed into surgery this.

morning. >> Oh, is that what it says? >> Yeah, she tweeted or she uh. Instagrammed it. >> Yeah. Yeah, do you think cuz she's kind of. like and she just took a break. She took. a complete break from politics. >> Yeah. You remember when she was running as a. Democrat, mhm, every time she would inch. up in the polls, the DNC would change. the rules for participating in the next. debate. So, they would do it just one or. two percentage points out of her reach. every single time. Because they were threatened by her. message. She just wouldn't get with. their program. >> She's always seemed very.

um. like she has her own. >> Oh, she was definitely independent. >> Independent, that's what it is. She's. always seemed very independent. Um well, they did the same thing with Bernie. Sanders. It was. >> They did exactly the same thing with. Bernie Sanders. >> So, I guess what my my question would be. like, you know, and I probably I I don't. I can't remember if I asked Bernie this. or not, but why would you stay in a. party that you know at a certain point. is not. that's cheating you. >> Yes. And you know, the Democrats did. something in um after the 1972 election, which I think people don't pay anywhere.

near enough attention to. Nobody at the DNC wanted George McGovern. to be the 1972 nominee. He was the most popular at the time, especially among young people, but he was um. he was the weakest nationwide. And he. ended up losing 49 states. But. you know, it's a party of the people, right? If the people want George. McGovern as the nominee, then George. McGovern should be the nominee. >> And they didn't let him become the. nominee?

>> No, they let him become the nominee, and. then as soon as he lost the race, they. instituted this this thing called. superdelegates. So, if you are a member of the House, a. member of the Senate, a governor, uh a. lieutenant governor, a state party. director, state committee chairman, you're automatically made a delegate to. the convention. Well, there are like. 1,500 of them. And so, you end up with situations like West. Virginia and Wyoming, where Bernie. Sanders. beat Hillary Clinton in both states, and.

Hillary Clinton wins literally every. delegate. >> From those states? >> Mhm. >> Wow. >> Like, how's that fair? >> So, wait, explain that to me a little. bit better, cuz I want to get on this, and I'm George McGovern was a major. reason Democrats later created. superdelegates after McGovern's 1972. nomination and landslide general. election loss, party leaders wanted to a. way way give more influence to. experienced officials and reduce the. chance that a highly activist primary. electorate would produce another nominee. they saw as too extreme. So, you're.

saying the people believed in this guy. >> Oh, yeah. >> Even though he lost, the people believed. in him, but the party. and whoever that is, uh, didn't want it to be like just a. like a populace vote. They didn't want. just the people to have the choice. >> They wanted to go back to the days with. the smoke-filled back rooms with the. party bosses choosing who's going to be. the nominee. >> And if they put it more on the shoulders. of just the dele- the super delegates, >> Mhm. >> then they could control fewer it it was. fewer people they had to control. >> Exactly. Exactly. I am proud to say.

in 1983, I was a sophomore in college, I was the. Speakers Committee Chairman, I was the whole committee, of the George. Washington University College Democrats. in the days when I was a Democrat. And I saw a little blurb in the. Washington Post saying, "Hey, remember. George McGovern? Uh, he's thinking of. running for president again." So, I. wrote him a letter. I said, "Hey, I read. that you were thinking of running for. president again. We have a fantastic. theater here at the school. We can do. all the legwork, ready-made volunteers.".

My phone rings a few days later, wakes. me up, and it's George McGovern. And he. says, "Can I see that theater?" I said, "Of course.". So, he comes over to school. and, uh, we walk over to the theater. Nobody recognized him. >> Mhm. >> And, uh, he said, "Yeah, the theater's. perfect." And there's like a cutout for. cameras, and it was perfect. So, he says, "Don't tell anybody, but I. am going to run for president again.". >> And this is after the '72 loss. >> Yeah, this is, uh, yeah, 11 years after. the '72 loss. Reagan is president.

>> So, um, we put out a press release, major. announcement by Senator George McGovern. on such and such a date, George. Washington University in the Marvin. Theater. And, uh, and packed the place, and it. was on the news. Um, and here's what a sweet guy he was. He did the announcement and brought. important people with him like Mo Udall. Remember Mo Udall? He ran for president. in '76. He was a congressman from. Arizona. And there he is.

And then um. Cliff Robertson, the Academy Award. Academy Award winning actor and his wife. Dina Merrill. Yeah, they both came. >> So he brought some. >> He brought his own A-listers. >> He brought his own influencers. >> Yeah, and uh and Frank Mankiewicz who. had been uh Robert Kennedy senior's. uh press secretary was was Senator. McGovern's press secretary. >> You must have been geeked, huh? >> Oh, yeah. I was. I mean it was incredible. And then he. makes the announcement, he shakes. everybody's hand, and he invites me back.

to his apartment and his wife made tuna. sandwiches. >> Nice. >> Just the loveliest people. He ended up. crazy as it sounds coming in third. Walter Mondale won, Gary Hart came in. second, and McGovern came in third. >> And that was for the Democratic Party? >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> And they kept saying drop out George, drop out George, drop out George cuz he. was pulling young people. >> I remember um Jesse Jackson when he ran, he was very close, right? Wasn't he the. populist choice kind of?

>> Yes, he was the populist choice 1984 and. 1988. >> He was. >> Mhm. Very much so. >> And cuz I remember we had I think we had. a sign for him like, you know, our family was always like, you know, pretty. you know, liberal and hopeful in new. ideas, right? >> That's how mine was. >> Yeah. But like but not but not like. ethereal at the same time. Not like. unrealistic, right? Not unrealistic, but. we were hopeful, you know what I'm. saying? Um. but yeah, didn't Jesse Jackson and did. they just not service him or what.

happened with Jesse Jackson? >> Yeah, they let him kind of. self-destruct. See, it says here he won. 11 contests. He did very very well in. '88, but he was never a Democratic Party. insider. >> Got it. The insiders were not going to. let him have that nomination. Mhm. That's what they do. And the Republicans. don't have such a system. You don't think so? >> No, they don't have superdelegates, which means then an insurgent candidate. like like a Donald Trump can win a. nomination. >> I see, but it's less likely to happen in. the Democratic Party?

>> Much less likely to happen. >> Because of superdelegates. Wow, I didn't. realize that only one party had those. >> Al Franken. >> Because hold on, before we move forward. on Al Franken. So, but didn't Jesse. Jackson win a few like in a row? Like he. was. >> Oh, yeah. He was on a roll. >> He was all He was building momentum. >> Uh-huh. And they were like, "Yeah, we're. going to put the brakes on this.". >> And when they say we are going to put. the brakes on this, who is the we? Is it. just. >> It's the It's the state committee. chairman who make up the Democratic. National Committee. >> Got it. But, it's just the insiders. It's like the.

the money talking. Whoever those like. >> It's the smoky backroom. This. congresswoman from Florida, her name. escapes me, three names. But, anyway, she was the head of What was it? >> California. >> No, she was the head of the DNC. in 20 A Debbie Wasserman Schultz, thank. you very much. Debbie Wasserman Schultz. um. gave Hillary Clinton's campaign all the. debate questions before the debate. But, Bernie didn't get the questions. >> Crazy. >> It's crazy. It's fixed.

>> Yeah. I think we all know what happened. at this point. Um. >> Yeah. The fix was in. >> But, the fix was in, but it's just it's. a it starts to make you feel like, "Okay, that the the regular person like. what you really want. the even the idea of that." It used to. feel real, and it doesn't feel real. anymore. And that I think is one of the. scariest things happening in America. right now. You're like. >> It used to feel hopeful. And now it feels. um. It's. Will we survive? It feel There's.

something else. It's not a hope. I don't. even know if it It's somewhat of a fear, but it's more of an uncertainty. But, America used to feel like this hopeful. thing, like we're building this thing. that's going to. >> Yeah. that that means something that. we're going to pass on to our uh. children and that um. >> [clears throat]. >> and that could possibly stand the test. of time. And when that when something. like that. you believe in something like that, it makes your day-to-day uh. interactions and your interaction with. your country and uh it it makes that all.

more meaningful to you. So, you show up. for it differently. Um we're sitting. here with John Kiriakou. >> Mhm. >> Kiriakou. Uh thank you so much for. coming in. >> Thank you for the invitation. I love the. show. >> I've seen so many clips of you uh. recalling stories from your time in the. CIA. Is having a a good memory a. requirement uh for the job? >> Oh, yeah. >> Is it really? >> Oh my gosh, yes. >> Is it a requirement? >> It's actively encouraged. I had a station chief one time who gave.

me the biggest compliment. >> what one time was it? >> A station chief. >> Okay. >> So, I was doing a I was doing an operation. in the Middle East, but I was doing it. from headquarters. The station chief. called me. We were friends from our. training days. And he said, "Listen, we recruited a. double agent out here. He's insisting on. meeting with the chief. But, it's just. too dangerous for me to meet with him. cuz he doesn't know that we know he's. working for. the bad guys.". >> Got it. >> "Can you come out here every month and.

meet with him and pretend to be me?" And. I said, "Sure." So, I did. To make a. long story short, I would do the meeting and then go. straight to the airport and fly back to. Washington. There was a midnight flight. >> Mhm. >> And um. I would write the cable, the reporting. cable from headquarters instead of. writing it from the station and then. sending it to headquarters. I'd write it. from headquarters, send it to the. station. And the great compliment he gave me was. he said, "Your memory is so good. You. remember so many details that when I. read the cables, I feel like I'm in the.

room watching it go down." And I said, that is exactly what I'm going for. Yeah, I've always been proud of. of being able to do that. >> But it wasn't a requirement when you. when you. I guess I don't know if you auditioned. for the CIA, but how do you. >> Yeah, you kind of do. Yeah. >> What's that process like? Like how do. you get. >> Extensive. >> Is it? >> It's changed from when I joined. When I joined, I was in graduate school. at George Washington University and I. was taking a class called the psychology.

of leadership. And the class was about. why foreign leaders make the decisions. that they make. One of the examples that sticks in my. mind is the Yalta Conference at the end. of World War II. Why was it in Yalta of all places? >> I'm not familiar with it. Bring it up. The Yalta Conference. The World War II. The Yalta Conference was a World War. meeting of the heads of government of. the United States, UK, and the Soviet. Union to discuss the post-war. reorganization of Germany and Europe.

Okay. >> Yeah. So Roosevelt, Churchill, and. Stalin. >> They all met in Yalta. >> They all met in Yalta, which is really, really hard to get to. And you can't just, you know, get in a. plane and fly over the war. The war is. still going on. So Roosevelt took a. train to to Norfolk, Virginia, then took a boat to Malta, which took. like a week, right? Back in those days. >> obviously a side op cuz it rhymes with. the Yalta. >> Right.

And then he had to go to Cairo and then. Iran and then from Iran to Yalta. He was. sick. He died a month later. >> Wow. >> So. the reason why it was in Yalta is. because Stalin had a spy in the White. House. And the spy told him Roosevelt is. sick. And so. Stalin wanted him to be as weak as. possible. When they arrived or when when the. American side arrived, Roosevelt was. exhausted and he wanted to go to sleep.

and he But Stalin insisted that the. talks begin immediately. And so just to. be able to go to bed, Roosevelt gave up. Poland. >> Look, I'll throw in Poland. Let's talk. tomorrow. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, dude. Look, sometimes Yeah, sometimes right you show up. and you're like Yeah, you just can't do. it. Yeah, or you just say, "Look, yes, take that. That's fine. I got You know. what I'm saying? I got to brush my teeth. and lay down for a few minutes." It's. crazy the things you will give up when. you first get somewhere just to get to.

your room and unpack and to urinate. >> So I'm in this class. >> And just to be clear, so they made him. go all that way just cuz they knew it. would weaken him. >> Yeah, there it is. >> So they created a a path that would just. like that would add to him cuz they had. a spy in the White House. >> Yeah. >> President Franklin D. Roosevelt died of. a massive cerebral hemorrhage on April. 12th, 1945 at Warm Springs, Georgia just. 2 months after the Yalta Conference. Well, the grueling 7,000 mile trip to. the Soviet Union combined with his. severe underlying cardiovascular.

conditions took a significant toll on. his already failing health. >> Wow. >> You see what a well-placed spy can do. for you? >> That's strategy right there. >> That is strategy. It's that's the big leagues. Right. there. The big leagues. So I'm in this. class and the the professor, Dr. Gerald. Post, eminent psychiatrist. uh. tells us to um shadow our bosses for a. week, just watch our bosses, spend each. day with them. and then do a psychological profile on.

our bosses. >> And this is when you're at George. Washington University, you're a student. >> Right. I was in grad school. There's. There's Jerry. And what what a great man he was. He died of COVID, the poor guy. So um. >> So he was murdered. >> Right. Right. >> Carry on. >> I'm um. I'm working at the United Food and. Commercial Workers Union at the time. And I work for this guy, he was a mean, like, angry, old-school union organizer, right? >> Mhm. >> I was a little bit afraid of him, to. tell you the truth. Big, strong, mean.

guy. And halfway through the week we got into. an argument. And I called him a racist, which he was. >> Yeah. >> And he got so mad, he set a stance and. he put up his fists like this. And I I put up my hands thinking, "Dang. it, I went too far this time." And he. goes, "My penis is bigger than yours." Mhm. And I said, "What?". And he goes, "My penis is bigger than. yours.". I said, "You know what? You're nuts, and. I quit." And I walked out. So, I went back and I banged out my. paper.

I said he was a sociopath with. psychopathic and possibly violent. tendencies. And I I I footnoted the. whole thing, it wasn't just John venting. on. >> But with a possibly decent weiner on. him. >> Yeah, right. Apparently. >> You got to put that in [laughter] there. >> Apparently. And so, I get the paper back a week. later. Dr. Post gave me an A, and then in the. margin he wrote, "Please see me after. class.". So, I go up to him. I said, "Dr. Post, you wanted to see. me." He says, "Come to my office." The. this classroom was like on the sixth. floor, and the office was on the fourth,

so I went down there. He closed the door, and he says, "Look, I'm not really a professor here. I'm a CIA officer undercover as a. professor here. I'm looking who for. people who would fit into the CIA's. culture. I think you would fit in. >> No way. >> Would you like to join the CIA?" And I. said, "Oh, yes, I would.". >> And so, the rest though is up to you. He. It was kind of a long story, I'll skip. it, but he made a couple of calls that. got me deep into the process.

>> So, Mr. Post was your professor. >> Yes. >> And you also had this job where you were. under where the where the guy was the. racist guy. >> Yeah, that was at a union. So, I was I. was using that union job to put myself. through grad school. >> Got it. >> And then I just I quit and I walked out. I said, "The guy's dangerous.". And. I I guess the way I wrote the paper made. him think. that the analysis was concise. It was to. the point, and I backed it up with the. facts. So, I go through these weird.

He sent me across the across the river. to Rosslyn, Virginia Arlington, Virginia. It's a little neighborhood. right across the Potomac from. Washington. >> Okay. Hold 1 second. So, so he was a He. was a CIA operative, this professor? >> Yes. >> Now, when someone's a CIA operative, but. also a professor, are they. an actual professor that then gets hired. >> That's a great question. >> Like, which is first? >> That's a great question. It's usually. that they're a CIA operative first, and. then they get hired as a professor. What.

he did is illegal today. >> Got it. >> So, in 1993, Congress passed the Equal. Employment Opportunity Act, >> Mhm. >> the EEOC, which made this illegal. So, um. Now, it's very like not sexy. You just. go to www.cia.gov, and click apply. >> Right. Different. >> It's different. >> little easier. >> Back then, it was, you know, all white. guys from Ivy League schools, for the. most part. And uh now, it's different. >> It was exciting. >> It was exciting.

>> I bet it was the I bet it was one of the. most exciting things. >> I. I used to park my car out in the north. 40, and then take like 20 minutes to. walk all the way around the compound, so. I could walk in the main door, across. the giant seal, and see the wall of. honor, and the flags, and. I felt like I wanted to cry, you know? >> I was so proud to be there. >> Felt like you were part of something. >> I really did. >> I can imagine that you feel like you're. part of something. Like, what did you. feel like you were part of? >> Well, you know, I I came from this very. liberal household, and I remember my mom. and dad getting into an argument one.

time. It was the Pennsylvania primary of 1976, and my my mom voted My dad voted for. Frank Church, who had created the Church. Committee that completely reorganized. the CIA and stripped it of its. his power to its power to you know carry. out assassinations and things like that. And my mom. voted for Birch Bayh who was a senator. from Indiana. And my dad said, "Birch. Bayh? Why'd you vote for him?". And she said, "He's so good-looking.".

And my dad's like, "What? Church is the guy doing all the work.". And I remember being fascinated by this. argument that they were having. So, when. when Dr. Post approached me. I called a friend of mine that I was in. class with who was married to a a guy at. the CIA. And I said, "Listen, I'm not a. naif. I. I know the CIA's history and it's pretty. ugly. Do I want to be involved in an. organization like this? I want to go. into public service. I want to see the. world.".

She said, "Let's have dinner." So, the. three of us get together for dinner. And he's like, "The the bad old days. of the CIA are gone.". >> The bad old days. >> Yeah, the bad old days of the CIA are. gone. He said um. "75 with the Church Committee in the. Senate, the Pike Committee in the House. changed everything. No more. assassinations, no more overthrowing. governments.". Which was true for a little while. A little while. Because. 4 years later. Ronald Reagan becomes president and next.

thing you know we're you know doing. Iran-Contra and we're bombing different. countries and everything just went back. to the way it was. But there was like. this golden period. My friends are going to yell at me for. saying that. There was this period where. the CIA was a really awesome place to. work. >> Got it. And so when you're walking into. that, when you're taking me back to that. moment where you're walking in, did you. feel like I'm a part of something that's. important to America or I'm I'm a part. of just an intriguing life and this is.

exciting. Did you feel like I'm like. Clark Kent? Like And and there's no. wrong answer. This is all just like. curiosity. >> The first 7 and 1/2 years that I was. there, I was an analyst. Actually, in. the the office that Dr. Post had founded. the political psychology division. And. I really felt like I was a part of. something big, you know? I was only on. the job 8 months. And um. it was just as I started to feel like I. really knew what I was doing. I was the.

I was the leadership analyst, the. psychological analyst on Iraq. And the reason I was given Iraq was. because. not my words, these were the words of my. leadership. Nothing ever happens there. It's the same cabinet since the 1968. revolution. Nothing ever happens. So, learn the writing style, learn the. tradecraft, and you can move on to. something interesting like Romania, they. told me. I said, "Great.". >> So, um my friend has played ball in. Romania, actually.

>> place, Romania. I love it. Oh, yeah, it's great. >> I got to get over there. I don't know. My buddy, Patrick McCaffrey, he just. finished playing ball over there. Anyway, carry on. >> I love it. So, um. just as I get to the point where I where. I really feel like I know what I'm. doing, Iraq invades Kuwait. August the 2nd, 1990. I walk into the. office early, like before 7:00, and my. boss says. >> Yeah, shit's popping, now you got to. show up. >> wait to get into the office that day. My. boss says, "Don't take your jacket off. We're going to go to the White House.". I'd never been in the White House. before. >> Mhm.

>> And so, um. we go to the White House. There's this. Marine standing there. He walks us into. the into the West Wing, and we go into. the anteroom of the Oval Office, and. then the secretary takes us in, and. here's the president, the vice. president, the national security. advisor, and the CIA director. And so, you just kind of stand there, you wait to be told what to do. There. are two nice chairs like this. The The. president's in that one, the vice. president's in this one. There's a couch. here. My boss and I sat on on that.

There are two like more uncomfortable. chairs over here for the CI director and. the national security advisor. And we sit down. and the president goes, "Well, now what do we do?". And then everybody turns and looks at. me. And I'm looking at them. And then it took me a second and I'm. like, "Oh, well I got Well, as you know, Mr. President, Iraqi troops crossed the. border at 4:00 this morning and the. Kuwaiti royal royal family ruling family. fled to Saudi Arabia, blah blah blah. blah.".

But I remember thinking, "My friends would never believe in a. million years what I was doing right. now. They would never believe it." And I. was 20. I was 25 years old. >> And it happened overnight that you were. kind of suddenly having an influence. Like you right there, they're like. they're looking to me for information. >> That that actually was kind of a. recurring theme in my career. I I was. just very, very lucky. >> Got it. >> of times. >> So when you're walking into into the. building, when you take that long way. and you pass like the flag and walk over.

the seal, it's just like, "I'm a part of. something.". >> Yeah, you really feel it. >> Do you think that's the same CIA that we. have today? >> No. No. 9/11 changed everything and it. changed it permanently in a bunch of. different ways. Not just Have you ever. heard of Executive Order 12333? >> I haven't. >> 12333 was signed by Gerald Ford. Um and it it was it came in the. aftermath of the Church and Pike. Committees. And um yeah. >> It established. >> responsibilities and guidelines for the. US. intelligence.

community. >> Okay, Executive Order 1233 establishes. the goals, responsibilities, and. guidelines for the US intelligence. community. Got it. >> Number one, you can't kill people anymore, right? >> Well, this was after the Church. Commission, right? >> They said, "You got to stop killing. people." And we had these like, you. know, we're putting explosives in Fidel. Castro's cigar and putting poison on the. steering wheel of his car and stupid. stuff. And so 12333 says, >> and Jerry. >> Yeah, >> exactly. You can't do that stuff.

anymore. And then it's been amended over the. years, well, after 9/11. Bush is just like, just kill everybody. you want. >> Wow. >> And so, we set up these offices. The one whole office called the Special. Activities Division, and then there's in. the Counterterrorism Center where I was. working, there was one called the the. Special Activities Group. And their job, very simply, was just to, you know, send teams around the world, kill people, come back, get the list for.

the next week, go out there, kill them, come back, get another list, kill those. guys. It was like, uh, nobody's trying to collect intelligence. anymore. >> Things changed overnight. >> Overnight. >> One time I was, um, I was traveling. somewhere, you know, cuz I had my. luggage with me and everything, and I. was I think I was in Guam, maybe, or via. Guam or somewhere. I don't know. And I couldn't get the internet. They. didn't have it, they didn't Some people. didn't know what I was talking about.

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or dial pound law. That's pound 529 from. your cell phone. That's f o r the. people.com/theo. or pound l a w pound 529. This is a paid. advertisement. Do you think there's a lot of like. conspiracies about 9/11, right? And I'm. sure you've had. um. >> I take a lot of about the. conspiracies, yeah. >> You do? >> I do. I take a lot of because I. don't believe in them. >> You don't? >> No. >> So, from your experience, cuz you were.

there when it happened, you were in the. CIA when it occurred, to where we are. now, has your point of view changed at. all since then to now? >> Yeah. My point of view actually has. changed. So, I don't think I deserve a. lot of the a lot of the sorry, the. criticism that I get. I'm going to [clears throat] start on. July the 6th of 2001. >> Okay. >> So. >> And I'm not familiar with the criticism. either. >> Okay, I'm glad. I'll explain it to you. then. Cuz I get all the time. the Jews did it, the Saudis did it,

literally the space aliens did it, the. Israeli government did it, the Bush. family did it, the you know, it's like. come on people. Uh nanothermite paint I. There's no such thing as nanothermite. paint. that they painted in 1972 to make the. the buildings blow up. Come on you guys. >> That to me sounds very. That sounds ridiculous. >> ridiculous. >> Uh but what doesn't sound ridiculous is. somebody having long-term strategy like. you were saying a little while ago that. people play a longer game, right? >> And we're not good at that generally. >> Oh yeah, I don't think that we are.

We're We're like a country we want. everything now, you know, and we're kind. of a newer country as well. So it's like. and we got everything fast anyway, and. when you get something fast, you don't. really have a ton of respect for it in. some ways. That's right. >> That's right. >> And it's tough for me to say that cuz we. all just live like one lifetime, but I. think some of that could be infectious. over like a society over time. Um I. never even thought about it before that. it's like yeah, when you get something. easy, you kind of used to something. coming easy. >> That's it. >> And so but I do believe that other. countries.

could have strategy against us and also. >> I believe that there were. >> And would it change for us as a people? Like would it change like. for how we look out of our own eyes, for. how we walk out of like uh. I remember on 9/11 I walked out of a. building. I was staying with some. friends. I walked outside and um. there was just some like construction. going on and it'd been going on for a. while and they were like redoing these. like uh this stone walkway. I was in. Charleston, South Carolina. And they had these bulldozers and stuff. out there and like people had been.

excited about the construction like it. was like um cuz the streets are. cobblestone. It's really beautiful. And suddenly that day everybody was like. are these like are they demolishing. something? Like suddenly this had a. whole different energy of like oh like. this is the rubble like it was a. connection with like what you just seen. on television to suddenly like something. that was being done that was positive. structurally was now suddenly looked at. like there was a lot of fear around it. and I know that's a ridiculous small. thing but that. >> But that's normal that happened at the. time. >> Right and it's just it just is how much.

of a small thing in your head like okay. I just seen this and now everything is. scary that's what I'm trying to say. everything is scary. >> I think that's exactly right the whole. country was traumatized it was our Pearl. Harbor the Pearl Harbor of our. generation. >> And it changed and it changed how you. would operate it changed. it changed just like every it adjusted. so many things. >> Go on though. >> So July 6th 2001. I'm hosting a group of. intelligence officers from a Middle.

Eastern country this is something we did. literally every single day usually. multiple times a day and what we do is. we set up a day of briefings they get a. photo op with a director you know he's. shaking hands we exchange gifts and we. take them out to a fancy dinner at. night. So these guys they were all. mid-level like majors and lieutenant. colonels. >> So it's a lot of. >> Yeah it's a lot of it a lot yes. So I. set up a day of briefings and I I went. to see this kid young guy. 20s. that was covering Al-Qaeda and I said. can you come and just talk to these guys.

about Al-Qaeda for an hour he said yes. So it came time for his briefing but. instead of him coming. the director of counterterrorism comes. Cofer Black. later ambassador Cofer Black and he. comes. >> country? >> the. >> Oh from the US? >> Yeah yeah he was our director. >> So he showed up? >> Cofer shows up with the director of. operations from the Osama bin Laden unit. and and I jumped up I was I was like oh. gentlemen I said this is this is Cofer.

Black he's the director of. counterterrorism for the entire. American intelligence community. >> And you were working in counterterrorism. at the time. Got it. And so, he came in and and sat down and. he was very, very serious. He said, uh, "Something terrible is going to happen. We don't know exactly when or exactly. where, but we know it's going to be an. attack on a scale that we've never seen. before." He said, "We're picking up. chatter from the Al-Qaeda training camps. where camp commanders are on the phone.

with their students and they're crying. and telling them, 'I'll see you in. paradise.' We're hearing code words for. a massive attack. The honey salesman is. coming with vast quantities of honey, where there's going to be a huge wedding. or a huge football game." And he said, "We know that they're planning an. enormous attack. We just don't know when. or where." And he said, "I'm begging. you. If you have any sources inside. Al-Qaeda, please help us." They just sat. there and looked at him. Nothing. So, at.

the end of the day, I was not working on. Al-Qaeda at the time. I later, weeks. later, became the chief of, uh, counterintelligence in the Osama bin. Laden unit. And so, I went to his office after at at the end. of the day before I took those guys to. dinner and I said, "Cofer, I got to tell. you, you shocked me with that briefing today. Was that just for them or were you. serious?" He said, "Oh, I was deadly. serious. Something terrible is going to. happen." And then on September 11th, there it was. He and I were supposed to go to the. White House that morning. We had a.

meeting with Condoleezza Rice, who was. the national security advisor at the. time, on an issue that's so stupid now, I'm almost embarrassed to tell you what. it is. It was about a a book that was being. printed by the Government Printing. Office, this minor governmental agency. called. Greece, Turkey, Cyprus. No, it was. called Foreign Affairs of the United. States, Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, 1949 to. 1967. Literally, nobody's going to read. this book. >> Nobody. I was going to tell you that. Nobody's going to read it. >> Literally, nobody. >> Yeah.

>> And it's like a thousand pages long. >> That's money laundering. >> And it had the names of three CIA. sources who were still alive. And we've got this obscure law in the. United States that if the government. outs a CIA source, we have to offer the. source citizenship. These guys are like. 198. and 97 years old. They're not going to. They don't care. >> Right. >> Nobody's going to read the book anyway. So, um. we were going to go down there and ask. her to just pull those pages out of the. out of the book. You know, nobody's.

going to miss it. Nobody's going to read. it anyhow. Just pull the pages out or. redact the names or whatever. But, I went up to tell them that the car. was ready and the secretary's got a. little TV on her desk and the World. Trade Center's on fire. I said, "What. happened to World Trade Center?". She said a plane flew into it. And I go, cuz I'm a genius, I said, "You know, that happened once before in 1930. A. bomber flew into the Empire State. Building. But, it was like pouring rain. and fog. I said, "It's so crystal clear. today. How can you not see that you're.

flying into the World Trade Center?" And. just as I spoke the words, the second. plane hit. >> Mhm. >> And then she turned and she said, "Did. you see that or did I imagine it?". And it's like, oh, everything's going to. go to now. >> And And at this point, you're already. working in counterterrorism, yeah? >> Well, I was already in counterterrorism, but I was working on a group See again, I'm embarrassed to even say I was. working in a group that was targeting. European communist terrorists like. Carlos the Jackal, who nobody remembers. now. He was the Osama bin Laden of the. '70s. Nobody remembers him in the world.

>> Really? >> Yeah, Carlos the Jackal. >> Bring him up. >> There he is. >> Wow, he looks suave, huh? >> He was Venezuelan, Ilich Ramírez. Sánchez. >> Mhm. >> Listen to the balls this guy had. OPEC had an oil ministers meeting, right? So, the ministers. >> those who don't know what OPEC is, it's. the Organization of Petroleum Exporting. Countries. So, um it's basically like. your oil kind of. um commission. >> yeah. >> Right? >> Yeah. Yeah, it's the the what do you.

call it? The cartel. It's an oil cartel. >> So, he and his gang of terrorists. raided the OPEC oil ministers meeting in. Vienna, Austria, and kidnapped every. single minister of oil. They killed three people, says there. >> Oh, yeah. >> He and he demanded a plane, flew. everybody to Libya, took his billion. dollars ransom that they gave him, and. then let everybody go. >> Wow. So, he was just trying to get a bag,

really, huh? >> Oh, yeah, and he was good at it. And. then he was so good at it, he set up. terrorist training camps in Libya and. Lebanon, and he trained the IRA, the. Irish Republican Army, he trained. Greece's revolutionary organization 17. November, the Red Brigades, the Action. Direct, the. >> did he feel so convicted to to do this. sort of behavior? >> He was a true believing communist. And he just wanted to bring down the. West. >> Mhm. >> Uh-huh.

>> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> But take me back. So, it's like you guys. hear that something's going to happen. >> Something terrible is going to happen. >> But what do you do at that point? >> Well, see, that's the key. What do you. do? We We didn't know what to do. So, we're going to the, you know, Jordanians, the Egyptians, the Saudis, the this one, the that one, and they're. like, "We We don't know what's going. on." Well, as it turned out, that wasn't. true. Um. almost all the hijackers What was it? 17. 16 or 17 of the hijackers came from. Saudi Arabia, right? And we know that. the Saudi ambassador to the United.

States at the time, Prince Bandar bin. Sultan al-Saud, his wife. transferred $50,000 from her personal. bank account to the hijackers. What are we supposed to make of that? >> Yeah, sometimes you got to get your girl. to Venmo if you need got to You know. what I'm saying? >> Seriously, you know, the only time I. ever saw George Tenet, who was the CIA. director at the time, the only time I. ever saw George completely lose his. was in a meeting with Prince Bandar. He said, "If we don't start getting help from the.

Saudi government. on this case, we're going to start. killing people, a lot of people, and. some of them are going to be named Al. Saud.". >> Mhm. >> I go out to Pakistan as the chief of uh. counterterrorism operations there in. January of '02. So, it's still fresh. We're bombing Tora Bora. All these. Al-Qaeda people are trying to get out of. Afghanistan, cross into into Pakistan, and my job was then to catch them when. they came into Pakistan. >> what? We're bombing We're bombing which.

country? >> Afghanistan. >> Afghanistan, right? But there was Why. were we looking for Al-Qaeda in. Afghanistan? >> That's where they were living, all of. them. They launched 9/11 from. Afghanistan. >> Got it. >> At least. theoretically, the ideas came when they. were in Afghanistan. >> Because from the American like. population, it always felt like we never. went after Saudi Arabia. That's what it. felt like. >> Yeah, and we should have. >> But if you Didn't you know that? >> We did not. We suspected, but we didn't. have There was no smoking gun.

So, that's what I'm getting to. We catch. Abu Zubaydah, Zayn al-Abidin Muhammad. Husayn. Abu Zubaydah, who we believed at. the time was the. >> I thought you were having a stroke for a. second. >> that's his name. >> No, I'm just joking. That was a joke. >> I know. And the profession of faith La. ilaha illallah Muhammad Rasulullah. Everybody. >> around people that are stroking out, and. if you don't tap in with them, they'll. just keep going. >> Oh, jeez. >> You know, and they they never buy a. vowel, and then they just tap. out, you know? >> terrible. So, you guys were doing this. guy? >> looking for him.

>> Oh, bro. >> And we catch him. >> This dude is a mumble rapper, I. think. Go on. >> He We were on him for 6 weeks we chased. him. Some days we'd bust down the door, and there's like a warm meal and a. half-lit cigarette still on the table. We're like, "Dang it, with 15 minutes we. could have gotten him.". Some days we were a day or two behind. So, he knew we were after him. He knew. we were chasing him all over the. freaking country. And. we catch him. In late March 2002 in Faisalabad, Pakistan.

So, we also confiscated his. diary. This This led to a huge fight. between the FBI and the CIA. Huge. And. the CIA was right and the FBI was wrong. But, um. the the fight was Well, we had we. captured his diary. So, I'm sitting there and that sounds so. suspect that he has a diary. >> It was more than a diary, though. >> But, even though, you know what I'm. saying? Like as a regular person. >> have terrorism stuff in it.

>> Right, but even then, first of all, who. the has a. >> See, but look he look He does have an. iPad, so he's a sketcher. Yeah. >> Oh, he drew a lot as well. >> it's all drawings. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah, all of it's drawings. And most of. them are classified top secret. The The. CIA wouldn't even allow them to be. released. >> Um cuz they were mostly about the. torture that was done to him. >> Understood. >> So, anyway, we catch the diary and I. call headquarters and I said, "Listen, we got his diary and there's some. fascinating in here." Like what? And I said, "Well, for one, there are.

the cell phone numbers of three Saudi. princes.". Like, what's up with that? So, they're like, "Put it in writing.". So, I write this cable back and I was. like, "We found these three princes. Here are their cell phone numbers.". George calls in the Saudi ambassador. The president calls the king. "What kind. of country you running over there?". So, we said, "We want those three. princes. We want them like right now.". Next thing you know, one goes into the. hospital for bariatric surgery cuz. they're all fat. >> Mhm. >> And he dies on the operating table.

>> Mhm. >> The other one is driving from Riyadh to. Jeddah on the Riyadh to Jeddah highway. He's in a one-car accident and is killed. in the accident. The third one goes. camping in the desert, which is a very. popular pastime, and dies of thirst. Yeah. So, we couldn't interrogate any of. them. >> Who do you think was it? Do you think. that uh Saudi Arabia did that? >> 100%. >> Right. Do you think we ever got uh.

to the bottom of 9/11? Do you think. >> No. >> You don't? >> No. And I'm going to say something. that's very unpopular. Um I think that the Israelis, while not involved in 9/11, absolutely, positively had advance. warning of 9/11. They had sources inside. of Al-Qaeda, and they purposely did not tell us the. details, because they knew what was. going to happen. They knew that we would attack. Afghanistan, and we would attack Iraq, and we would kill 2 million Muslims, and.

I mean, these dancing Israelis, they've. never answered for this. I'm still mad about the dancing. Israelis. >> I've heard about the dancing Israelis. Bring it up. So, you're saying that you believe that. they knew. >> I I think they knew in advance and. didn't warn us. >> But they didn't warn us because we would. then we would. >> We would do their dirty work for them. >> take out issues with their surrounding. guys. >> You know, there are videos making the. rounds now of Benjamin Netanyahu over. the years, over the the last 20 plus. years, testifying before Congress and.

saying, you know, if if we just took out. Saddam Hussein, we would be peace in the. Middle East. If we just took out Muammar. Gaddafi, there would be I guarantee you, he says, there would be peace in the. Middle East. >> And we do it all. >> We do it. Take out Iran, and we're going. to have peace in the Middle East. >> It's starting to get a little bit more. like. >> I think so. A little sus. >> Yeah. >> So, um the Iraqis have electrical towers. like we have everywhere, but ours have. four legs, and the Iraqis have three. legs. So, just a few days before we attacked.

Iraq, at that time I'm the I'm the. executive assistant to the deputy. director for operations at the CIA. So, it's a serious the most serious job I. ever had in my life. >> have access to a lot. >> Literally everything. >> Wow. >> And the Israelis come to us and they. said, "Listen, you guys are going to. attack Iraq in a couple days. We want. in.". We said, "Absolutely not." We put this. coalition together with all these Arab. countries. As soon as you guys jump in, all the. Arabs are going to drop out. Just let us. do it. Next thing you know,

every one of these electrical towers. just begins to topple over, like 150 mi. worth in the western desert. Because. somebody put explosives on just one of. the three legs. >> Mhm. >> And I remember my boss saying, "These damn Israelis. They just can't. leave well enough alone.". They just don't ever do as they're told. >> Um let me look at this. The dancing. Israelis. And we're talking about the. Israeli government. We're not talking. about Israeli people. >> I'm I'm far less worried about the. dancing Israelis than than I am about.

the Israelis who were arrested on 9/11. >> Okay. >> It was there was what. >> Just so I can just so I can say the. claim because I don't know I've never. even spoken about this. The dancing. Israelis is a 9/11 related conspiracy. trope based on the arrest of five. Israeli men in New Jersey on September. 11, 2001. Um. and this is a according to Perplexity. And it was some guys I think they were. on a building top and they were kind of. dancing like around. >> High-fiving each other. >> Yeah. A bread truck or something as the. uh as you can see the towers in the. distance. Um yeah, New Jersey woman.

reported five men near a van overlooking. Manhattan who appeared to be celebrating. and taking photos as the twin towers. burned. Police later stopped a. suspicious van and detained five Israeli. citizens. Um. they had items like box cutters and. multiple passports, which conspiracy. theorists later fixated on, but box. cutters are normal tools for a moving. delivery job. Um. >> They were happy because they knew. exactly what was going to happen, that. we would have to enter the war, we would. attack Afghanistan, we would probably. then,

you know, uh. take a permanent position in the in the. region, which is exactly what happened. That's why they were dancing. They were. happy. 9/11 was a good thing for Israel. >> Yeah. >> It it it got us militarily engaged over. the long term. >> But you don't think that they were. involved in the setting up of it. >> No. No, no. There's and there's never. been any evidence to suggest that they. were involved in any way. >> have no idea. >> No. But there was another thing, too, and this is this is a bigger issue. Um it's that. uh the Israelis spy on the United.

States. They've always spied on the. United States. >> Do we spy on them, also? >> No. And and that's written in stone at. the CIA. We do not spy on Israel. But. they openly spy on us. They're all over. the country stealing defense secrets. >> Do we spy on other countries? >> Yeah, we spy on almost every. >> Why can't we spy on them? >> It's a political decision that's been. made. Yeah, a political decision in the White. House, on Capitol Hill. >> Sometimes it just feels like our country.

is just kind of owned by Israel and they. just don't say that. Do you think that. that's true or do you think that's. fictional? >> Well, I don't think it's so clear-cut. I. think I think the truth is that the. Israelis have inordinate political. influence in the United States. Especially in our elections. >> Yeah. Well, they just had that election with. Thomas Massie that um. >> Exactly. That that's the best example. >> That got overtaken. What happened with. that election? Let's bring it up. I. mean, I know that Thomas lost a lot, but. it was it was the largest. >> Yeah, $35 million was spent. >> The American Israel Public Affairs.

Committee or AIPAC and other pro-Israel. interest groups have uncorked over 9. million in a bid to unseat Republican. Representative Thomas Massie on Tuesday, which they did in a competitive primary. that has shattered spending records. Uh. prominent pro-Israel GOP donors have. funneled millions more into a super PAC. stood up by President Donald Trump's. political operation that has spent. nearly 7 million on the race. Overall ad. spending has topped 32 million, making. it the most expensive house primary on. record per tracking firm AdImpact. Wow.

>> For a job that pays $180,000 a year. >> So, what are the long-term benefits that. of them getting this position, or was it. just about getting Massie out? >> getting Massie. The thing about AIPAC is. if you are not 100% pro-Israel, they. will primary you. They'll They'll primary you with. somebody who is 100% pro-Israel. And. sometimes, you know, the the perfect is the enemy. of the good, where um. >> What does that mean? >> Uh where you've got, for example, there.

was a an incumbent Democrat in New. Jersey. who voted pro-Israel 90% of the time. They ran a primary opponent against him. Um. and uh. who was 100% pro-Israel, and he lost. But so did she. And the one that won was the one that's. pro-Palestinian. >> Ah, I see. So, someone else by taking. out like by aiming for one, you might. let another through. >> You end up hurting your own cause. >> Got it. Yeah. Yeah, well, I think I. mean, I can understand people's uh. angst with this sort of thing. I mean,

the the biggest thing is just like if. Israel's involved in a genocide, right? They're genociding people. It's almost. like, why would you let Nazi Germany. invest in your in your people who are. going to be running. congressmen or senators in your country? It's crazy. I don't see how there's not. a law Like, why isn't there a law if. there's some if a country's doing like a. like a holo- caust or like a genocide, that they're not allowed to invest in um. that they're not allowed to have a lobby.

in in in our elections? >> See, >> Was there ever a law about that? >> No. And and they would lose their over. the use of the word genocide. You used. it, I use it. It's a genocide. It meets. >> We've been using it on here for years. >> It meets all the international legal. requirements of a genocide. >> Yeah, well, I I the UN is has voted that. it is. Um I don't know if the vote. passed because I think there was maybe. some groups that were that wouldn't. agree to it. >> Well, it didn't pass the Security.

Council, but it passed by 90-something. percent in the General Assembly. >> Yeah, but I just I don't understand why. that seems fair. And also, I'm amazed. that I don't understand why people that. made like movies and wrote books about. the Holocaust, why they don't speak up. and say, "Hey, >> Yeah. >> this is the same thing that I wrote. about." I'm saying you can show picture. to picture that makes it exactly the. same. >> Killing is wrong. It's wrong, no matter. who's doing the killing or who's being. killed. It's just wrong. >> But I don't see why some of those people. don't speak up.

>> I mean, well, there there is an. increasingly large number of Jewish. Americans who are speaking out. There's. a big group called Jewish Voices for. Peace. Um the Orthodox Jewish community. in New York has been very vocal. Just. this week, uh there was um. >> Was there a protest going on? Wasn't. there? >> Israel Day parade. And. and a lot of the Orthodox Jews from. Brooklyn showed up with Palestinian and. Iranian flags, and it caused violence. Yeah.

>> Yeah, I guess I just don't understand. why. What are like What is America afraid of? Like Like What have you seen like in the. CIA because it does You hear a lot that. like that that the Israeli influence. like has taken over our CIA and our FBI. Do you think that that's true or not? >> Well, I can't speak to the FBI, and my. my CIA information is dated. I left the. CIA more than 20 years ago, but when I. was there, we kept the Israelis at arms length, like.

seriously so. Um the very first. intelligence liaison intelligence. briefing I ever gave was to the. Israelis. I had been only on the job 6. weeks, and my boss said, "Listen, you're. going to give a liaison briefing. It's. going to be a whole big group of people. So, you're going to be the last one to. talk cuz you're the most junior. But you. need to know some of the ground rules. He said, "We do not meet with the. Israelis in the building. We used to, but every time they'd come, they'd bring. us gifts. And the gifts are always.

packed with listening devices and. batteries." Is that true? >> Yes, 100% true. >> guys find them? How do you even know. that that's true? >> Because you have to x-ray everything. that comes into the building. You can't. just wantonly walk in off the street. with, you know, boxes of gifts and say, "Here, this is for you.". >> And what they do is sew a couple. Palestinian ears from the rubble? >> And they're like, "Oh, we're just joking.". >> Oh, it's like joking stuff. >> Yeah, it's not joking. >> Right. So, that happened during your. time? Was that with other countries, too? There's So, I'm sure there's other. countries that like. >> Oh, there are other countries we don't. even have liaison with.

>> Got it. >> But with the Israelis, we had to we had. to rent a place and we would meet with. them in the place. Um on my very first day at the CIA, you. meet in the auditorium called the. bubble. And the head of HR comes out and. the director comes and says, "Welcome to. the CIA." And then the head of security. It's just a parade of important people. come to welcome you. So, the head of. security said a couple things. One was. funny. He said, "The gravest threat facing. America today is the threat of Soviet. communism." And I said to the guy next.

to me, "Does this guy not read the. papers? There is no Soviet Union anymore.". Anyway, he went on to say that the. Israelis have two. declared intelligence officers in the. United States, one Mossad and one Shin. Bet. So, CIA and FBI equivalents. They're at the Israeli embassy in. Washington. But the FBI has identified. 187. additional undeclared Israeli. intelligence officers spread out all. over America.

stealing secrets from defense. contractors. So, the the lesson was, don't ever talk. about work outside the building, don't. ever eat at the restaurants in McLean, Virginia, cuz they're all Russian KGB. and back then it was the KGB and Israeli. Mossad agents eating there to hear what. the CIA people are saying after we left. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> It sounds exciting though, at least like. >> exciting. >> I bet it was it was like a real whodunit. back then. >> loved it. I really did. I loved it until. I didn't love it, you know? And after.

9/11 everybody went nuts and just wanted. to kill everyone. I was getting ready to. go to Pakistan. And so I stopped by the office on my way. to the airport just to say goodbye. Cuz. Cofer said on 9/11, he stood up on his. desk Cofer Black, you said? Cofer Black, yeah. He stood up on his desk and he said, "Today we're at war. All of us are going to have to do our. part. Not all of us are going to be able. to come home.". So he said, "If you if you want to walk. now, walk and nobody will think less of. you." Nobody budged. So.

I stopped by the office cuz I want to. say goodbye. I don't know. Am I going to. get shot? Am I going to get blown up? Am. I going to get killed? I don't know. So. I just want to say goodbye. >> Say goodbye to Cofer? >> No, to Cofer, to my boss, excuse me, and. to the. people I was working with. >> Well, why would you have gotten shot um. um. >> I was the chief of counterterrorism. operations. That's what the job I'm. going out to. I'm busting down doors. three nights a week. And um. and I worked for this guy, lovely, lovely guy. Nice suits, just a really like like very. professorial.

And he gives me a hug and he leans in. and he says, "Kill them all.". And I said, "Really? Have we gotten. there already?". >> Wow. >> And he says, "Kill them all.". And then I went to the airport. I was like, "Am I the only guy who. thinks we should do this by the book?". >> God. >> Apparently I was. >> That's That's crazy, man. >> It was ugly. You should see some of the pictures I. have on my phone. Those make your hair. stand up. >> I don't know. I'm already There's. already a lot of stuff I'm not allowed. to look at. >> [laughter]. >> Um.

I have blockers on my phone, so. uh yeah. I'm just going to donate my. eyes to charity, I think, soon. Um. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For some, summer is their favorite. season. Travel picks up and the kids are out of. school and adventure is the focus. For others, juggling it all can be tough. and and they're just counting down the. minutes until the kids are back in. school.

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how bad did it get after 9/11 where the. rules of like um interrogating and that. sort of thing changed? >> Ah, that's a good question. You know, the the dirty little secret was. literally not one single CIA officer was. trained in interrogation techniques. So, I as soon as we started catching. these guys, I mean, I'd only been there. but a week, we started catching them. And my boss is like, "Interrogate him.". I'm like, "I'm not I don't know how to.

interrogate people. I can interview. them.". >> And what do you even wear sneakers when. you even put on to do something like. that? >> Yeah, I wear sneakers most days. Uh polo. shirt, jeans. Bro, you can't interrogate. somebody in a polo shirt. >> That's all I brought with me. That and. sweatshirts cuz it was cold when I. arrived. >> You got to put on a Chicago Bears jersey. or something. >> [laughter]. >> Oh my god, it was so weird. See, in one. of the early raids, we had also. confiscated the Al-Qaeda training. manual. Well, I I speak. >> still have one of those now?

>> No, no, no. I turned everything in. Uh but you know what? It might be. online. It might be out there. And I I. want one. So, I was uh I spoke and and read. Arabic. And so, we're going through the. training manual and I and I'm. translating it to the guys in my branch. as I'm reading it. Well, everything that was in the manual, these. prisoners would do as we would catch. them. So, I say, "What's your name?" The guy. goes, "Oh, like he's having a ruptured appendix. Oh, what's your name? And he like. pretends to faint and falls off the.

chair and then he just kind of opens one. eye to look at you. I'm like get the. up and get back in the chair. What's your name? And then like do you do you hit him? Do. you not hit him? Do you grab him by the. shirt and shake? >> You didn't know what the rules were? >> So there were no rules. And so what kind. of environment I mean. >> What did you end up having to do? Like. what do you do in those sort of. situations? Like are you responsible to. garner information? Do you even feel. like the people you're catching have. real information? The sounds kind. of vague.

>> Everybody has something. It's called the. mosaic concept where everybody's got a. little tile in his brain. And if you. collect enough tiles, you can put the. whole picture together. So I mean some of it sounds comical now. Um. I would say the Pakistani lieutenant. colonel that I was working with. on a daily basis, I'd say you want to be. the good cop today? I'll be the bad cop. or you want to be the the bad cop again? I'll be the good cop. And then we decide. in advance. Then I go in, you know, we. start talking to these guys. The first.

guy we captured, he was a Jordanian. And they bring him in, he's shackled at. the ankles, shackled at the waist, and. then they undo the waist shackle and. they they chain him to an eye bolt in. the in the table. So. you have to know the answers to all the. questions that you're asking, right? So. I'm like, what's your name? He tells me. his name. Uh how. where did you come from? I came from. Tora Bora. And what happened in Tora Bora? The. Americans began bombing us. And then. where did you go? He said I tried to.

escape, so I went into a cave and then. the Americans bombed the cave and the. guy like had blood squirted out of his. ears and he had brain damage and. finally made it across the border. I lay out a map. Tell me exactly how you. got across the border. We knew what the. rat lines were. And he told the truth. This is the way we came through this. pass. Everything he told me was true. And so I I said to him. He said, "What's going to happen to me?". And I said, "Honestly, I don't know.

You're probably going to spend some time. in jail here and then we're going to. send you to Jordan and I don't know what. the Jordanians are going to do to you.". Because he was Jordanian. >> Yeah. >> So, I said to him. "But let me ask you something. I know that what you told me was true. Why did you tell me the truth?" And he. goes, "I'm your prisoner. What good would it do me to lie to you?". He said, "I know how these things work. I know that you knew the answers to. these questions. It doesn't help me in. any way to lie to you.". >> Mhm. >> [clears throat].

>> And then I said, "Okay, thank you." And. then he says, "Let me ask you something. now.". He said, "I assume you're Christian.". And I said, "Yes.". And he says, "I would like to invite you. into the embrace of Islam and I'll be. your godfather.". I said, "Well, thank you very much.". >> And what is that? It's almost like the. Boy Scouts or something. I mean, he did. like as a scout leader kind of like kill. like. >> Yeah. Be like your sponsor? >> Yeah, like my sponsor. He's going to. convert me to Islam and I'm going to say. >> yeah? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Okay. >> And um. And I said, "Yeah, thanks but no thanks.

and I wish you the best." And I remember. saying to a colleague of mine, "My God, if everyone goes like that, it's going. to be incredible." The next raid we did. we bust down the door 2:00 in the. morning and it's two kids. They're 19. years old from Tunisia and they both. just burst into tears. >> Aw. >> And so we cuff them and one kid is just. heaving, sobbing and the other one is. begging me to let him call his mother. And I'm like, "No, I'm sorry. You can't. call your mother.".

>> What they do? >> They. They were Arabs without passports or. visas in an Al-Qaeda safe house and that. was good enough for me. >> Got it. >> So, we got to the point where. we had literally filled the Rawalpindi. jail. In In Rawalpindi, Pakistan, it's. it's this gigantic city that's kind of. attached to Islamabad. Islamabad's the. capital, but it's very very small. >> Mhm. >> Rawalpindi is where the military is. located, and it's like 5 6 7 million.

people there. So, uh. Rawalpindi jail, there it is. That's it. >> My god, I haven't. >> I haven't been to Rawalpindi jail in 24. years. And I'll tell you what, I don't. remember it looking that good, either. >> I've never been. >> Well, you uh thank your lucky stars. >> Really? >> Yeah, it's not good. So, so the the Pax called me, and they said, "Look, we've we've literally filled the. jail. You got to do something with these. guys.". I said, "Okay." So, I called. headquarters. I said, "The Pax are. telling me that the jail's full. What do. you want to do with them?".

They said, "Put them on a C-12 and send. them to Guantanamo.". I said, "Guantanamo, Cuba? Why would we send them to Cuba?". And they said, "We came up with this. idea. We're going to send everybody to Cuba, and then we're going to divide them up. after we figure out what federal. district court to charge them with, cuz. 9/11 was an open criminal investigation. at the time, and the crimes were. committed in the. Eastern District of Massachusetts, hijacking,

the Western District of Pennsylvania, hijacking, the Eastern District of. Virginia, the Pentagon, and the Southern. District of New York. I said, "That's a great idea.". So, we just started loading these guys. on an endless, you know, parade of C-12. transport planes and sending them to. Guantanamo. And then somebody. in Dick Cheney's office, probably David. Addington, although he's never admitted. it, somebody said, "You know what? These guys don't have any rights in. Cuba.

Why don't we just leave them there, like. forever?". >> Mhm. >> And here we are, 24 years later. >> Some of them are still there? >> And they're still there. >> Most of them, you think? >> 34 of them. At the height, had like. 770, I think was when it was at its most. full. >> I went there one time as a. to perform as a comedian. >> Yeah. >> Went down there and was performing for. some of the troops there and stuff. You. got to see some of the uh. just the way you would fly in it. >> Oh yeah, well when you would the way you. would fly in at night, uh they would fly.

in like this kind of crazy pattern. >> Yeah, they do. >> And it was lit up. It almost looked like. a big wedding ring in the distance. because they had like just these bright, bright lights um. on the fences surrounding the uh the. base. And so you come in like at this. crazy kind of pattern. And uh and you. kind of had to go around. We went from. >> Right. >> I think we went from I think we went. from I think we went from. >> So you have to go around and come up. from the south. >> We went from somewhere in Florida and. went around. >> Yeah. >> It was pretty intense. I mean it was. definitely it was interesting. Uh and.

then we got to go right up by the the by. the detainee centers. And I think we. even saw some guys playing volleyball. and stuff. But um. Were there tortures where people lost. their lives? Were you that you were. involved in? >> Not that I was involved in, thank God. >> [snorts]. >> There were you know. >> But like at what point do you call like. one office getting out of hand? Like. have you been in one that was getting. out of hand? >> No, because when we were catching guys, we had not yet implemented the torture. program. So the torture program was was. conceived and approved in October of.

2001. >> Okay. >> I got to Pakistan in January of 2002. And we're like, what do we do with these. guys? Well, I we the FBI's there with. us. They're like, you can't you can't. like hit him or you can't do anything to. him. If they don't talk, then okay, we. just send them to Guantanamo. >> And cuz you you ended up coming out and. talking speaking out about uh torture. that was happening. >> Right. >> But how would they let you do that if. you weren't aware of it first hand. though? >> Well, because remember I became the. executive assistant to the deputy.

director. >> Oh, so you would see the reports coming. back. You see all the cables coming like. in? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Huh. >> Mhm. >> [snorts]. >> Was some of it pretty intense, do you. feel like? >> was. >> bad. You know, I. Most Most of the news outlets that I. talked to, they make the biggest deal. out of waterboarding. There's. waterboarding right there. Um I think that there were. there were techniques that were worse. than waterboarding. Sleep deprivation. >> Yeah. >> is one. Um. and in terms of causing death, uh the. cold cell. You see sensory deprivation,

that was also a terrible one. >> What is that like? >> Sensory deprivation, they put you in in. like an isolation tank. >> Mhm. >> and you're surrounded by water. and you literally go crazy from the. silence. >> So, you're in like a like one of those. uh. one like kind of one of those places you. can go pay to do and it's like quiet in. there? >> But instead of being in there for an. hour or 2 hours, you're in there for 3. weeks. >> Is there Are they playing music or. >> No, it's it's complete silence and. darkness. Complete and total like you're dead.

>> Wow. >> Yeah. >> I think Aaron Rodgers does that. >> I think that's nuts. But there were a. couple that were worse than. than uh waterboarding. The cold cell, we. strip the prisoner naked. You chain him. to an eye bolt in the ceiling so he. can't lay or sit or get comfortable in. any way. >> your underpants on or you can't? >> No, no, no, no. Cuz the idea is to. humiliate them. >> Oh. >> Remember in their religion. >> Oh. >> uh nakedness is shameful. >> Yeah. >> Right? And nakedness in front of a.

woman. And we would have women. interrogators strip them naked just to. humiliate them. >> Yeah. >> You see this rectal feeding? Um. >> Rectal feeding? >> Yeah, what we did is we forced tubes up. their asses and then with a pump. pumped hummus up there just to insult. their culture. >> No way. Who was coming up with these ideas? I'm. sure these. >> There were two contract psychologists at. the CIA. Um James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen. >> Is that true? >> Mhm. >> They came up with these plans? >> Yeah, and we paid them $108 million of.

taxpayers' money for it. >> Wow. But when you look at were these people. criminals? I See, this is what's. interesting. >> the thing. That's the thing, Theo. They've never been charged with a crime. >> Right. >> So, charge them with If these guys are. as bad as we say they are, charge them. with a crime. If they're as bad as we. say they are, find them guilty, sentence. them to death, and execute them. We. won't even charge people in our country. who are committing a crime a crime. No. >> So, I think that it's like. >> That's like a problem that's been across.

the board is like. What is the crime? Charge somebody with. a crime. >> Yeah. It's not happening in our own. country. >> But because this is so wild to hear. about because it's like You know, it's. really it's interesting like just as a. person, right? You're like, okay, did. these guys do something really bad to. kill people in our country, right? Did. Were they doing really harmful stuff? Are they like. >> And they were. >> Right. >> Yeah. But But they confessed through. torture. So, none of it's admissible. None of it. >> Right. Okay. So, but then it's like.

Yeah, it's like how do you solve. something like that? You know, with more. crime? >> Well, there was a There was a deal that. was made during the Biden. administration. So, it was It was like. the top. three or four. Um Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, uh. Ammar al-Baluchi, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, and somebody else. Um they agreed to plead guilty to. terrorism. And what they got in exchange was life.

without parole. and a promise not to send them to. supermax in Colorado because they they. said they couldn't deal with the cold. They wanted to stay in Cuba cuz it's. warm. >> Mhm. >> So, life without parole. And Biden's uh. Secretary of Defense. um. vacated the deal and he says, "You can't. make a deal like that. I have to make. that deal because I'm the Secretary of. Defense." And it went [clears throat]. through the courts, and then the Biden. administration There it is, right there.

>> The Biden administration Department of. Defense. um And who were these four guys? They. were the men accused of. >> Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Walid bin. Attash, Mustafa al-Hawsawi. >> They were accused of plotting the. September 11th terrorist attacks, right? The Biden administration Department of. Defense reached plea agreements with uh. three prominent al-Qaeda figures whom. you just mentioned, accused of plotting. the September 11th terrorist attacks. However, following intense political and. public backlash, the administration. moved to block the agreement, and the. courts later threw it out. So, what. happened to the guys? Are they just. still in being held?

>> there. You see right there the terms. They They agreed to plead guilty to. murdering 2,976. people. >> Mhm. >> in exchange for life without parole. Okay, so the deal was thrown out. So, now what do they have? >> Why was it They They have life without. parole. They That's the deal. Right. >> Same thing. >> It's the same thing. They're never going to be released. >> But why didn't we What was the reason. why the Oh, cuz the reaction from. people? >> It was It was really reaction from the. Biden adminis- from the Biden Defense.

Department. >> is 9/11 families, too. I guess they. thought. >> families just want to chop everybody's. head off. And I understand. I get it. I. really do. I make sense. I get it, but. that's never going to happen. It's never going to happen. We're a. country of laws. We can't just pretend that we're a. country of laws except when the laws. aren't convenient for us. >> you kill enough people, it seems like. you would face the death penalty. >> Yes, but this You have the You have to. blame the CIA for that. If the CIA. hadn't tortured these guys, they would.

all be have been executed. >> It's all inadmissible. >> Got it. >> They confessed everything, but it was. all under torture. And so, you can't do anything with that. Now, there's no evidence against them. None. >> What a I can't even imagine what it's. like to be some of those families and. like and just the drawn out of all of. that and just. >> year 25 years in in September. Um. Let's get a little bit more current. Do. you Oh, did you see that they just had. the like they have those flotillas that.

are going to Gaza? Did you see that the. Prime Minister of Ireland's sister. was on one of them? >> [laughter]. >> I'll tell you the Irish hate the. Israelis and the Israelis hate the. Irish. >> Has that always been the case, do you. think? >> No, only in the last eight or 10 years. >> Let me see this. Gaza aid flotilla. activist home after torture ship. nightmare. Scroll a little. Irish. activists have claimed they were. kidnapped and beaten by Israeli forces. after their aid flotilla to Gaza was. intercepted in international waters.

Margaret Connolly, the sister of. President Connolly, was among the. emotional arrivals at Dublin Airport on. Saturday. "They wanted us to suffer,". she said. "None of them could look us in. the eye. What a dehumanizing thing to do. to men and women aged from 22 to 75.". It's just wild. Imagine if like Obama's. sister. or. >> Can you imagine? >> Can't imagine. I want to interview Greta. Thunberg. >> That would be fun. >> It'd be cool, huh? >> Yeah. >> I just would like to get to see what. she's like. You know, I never been. around her. I just see you just see like. bits and clips of people. >> Right.

>> Um so, it'd be pretty fascinating. The. Irish detainees were among hundreds of. par- participants from other countries. who were also detained when the latest. iteration of the global. Sam Samud flotilla flotilla was stopped. by Israeli forces in international. waters. And a lot of these groups were. trying to get there to bring aid to the. people in Gaza. And then also, I think. to just document what was going on. there. >> Yes. >> Um they've had the largest killing of. journalists. >> Yeah. >> in the history. >> of time.

>> Yeah. >> of the world. >> in the history of the world. >> Yeah. How are people not outraged? Have. you heard of. >> I don't know if people have any feelings. anymore. I don't know what's going on. >> Have you heard of Shireen Abu Akleh? >> No, I couldn't even hear that. I don't. even know how to you know. I [laughter] couldn't Yeah, I couldn't. do it if I Yeah. >> Shireen Abu Akleh. was an American citizen. And she was the. top journalist on Al Jazeera. So, um. Bring her up. >> Shireen. >> Shireen Abu Akleh. >> Abu Akleh. >> So, again, American citizen, she goes to.

Israel and she's covering the the. fighting between the Israelis and. Palestinians. I think it was in the in. the West Bank. There she is. Yeah, in the West Bank. So, she's wearing a bulletproof vest. that says press and she's wearing a. helmet that says press and she's she's. taking cover behind a tree and an. Israeli sniper shot her in the face. >> Oh. >> And killed her. Killed her instantly. So, her funeral is held a couple days. later in a Greek Orthodox church in the. West Bank. The IDF raids the church,

beats the pallbearers, and they drop the. the coffin. >> You're lying. >> Isn't that awful? >> Let me see. The manner of her death and. the subsequent vile violent disruption. of her funeral drew widespread. international condemnation of Israel. During her funeral procession, the. Israel police attacked the pallbearers. at the Saint Joseph's Hospital in East. Jerusalem with batons and stun grenades. The hospital itself was also stormed by. Israeli police officers who assaulted. patients and threw stun grenades.

What is. >> An American citizen. >> Unbelievable. And we and we didn't say anything. >> We didn't say anything. Our Well, most. of our media won't say a lot of stuff. about this. >> No. >> What do you think's going on? It feels. like this is almost like. it almost feels like um like the. Twilight Zone. Does that make any sense to you? >> Yes, very much. >> Well, as someone who's seen like a lot. of like sci-ops and things that go on, what's going on here? Like like what. does Israel have like an end goal? Like. I Like I have a lot of Jewish friends.

that are great people and stuff like. that, right? >> of my best friends is an IDF special. forces veteran. >> No way. >> Yeah. >> How does he feel about this sort of. thing? >> He's ashamed. He's like, we didn't used. to be like this.". I just don't under like is there some. goal of Israel that's is a bigger goal, do you think? Do you think some. >> Well, the goal might be in the 2027. National Defense Authorization Act, it. integrates for the first time ever the. Israeli and American militaries.

So, they become like one military. It's. like, who who thought of that? >> Oh, my friend Ro Khanna actually is. putting together. He's trying to put together a bill, I. think, to challenge this. I'm not and I. don't know if the term is a bill, I'm. not sure. So, you know, I'm more of an. emo emotional guy than I am like. >> and respect Ro Khanna. I hope he runs. for president. >> He's a neat guy. We had him on here and. it was it was cool. I think he's a I. think he's a really interesting guy. I.

think he's brave. Um I like the stuff. that he's brave enough to do. >> Um See, and I say the same thing about. Tucker Carlson. I think I think Tucker The one I'll tell. you something about Tucker is the Tucker. that you see on the screen, that's. Tucker in real life. >> I agree. >> He's he's the sweetest guy. He means. exactly what he says. He doesn't hold. anything back. Totally honest. >> Well, I think it's like you're just a. human being who lives in a country and. you're supposed to have these like.

things of what means something and then. you start to see all this stuff that. you're like, "Well, this goes against. everything that I've learned. This goes. against like. especially like you grow up like you see. like every other book at the airport is. about the Holocaust for the my entire. life. So, it's like every time you get. on a plane, you're grabbing one of. you're learning about and you're like. you're you you see these things that are. wrong or that are like you know, and. then you see this thing happening like, "Well, how is this?" And then if you. mention like.

and people act I don't know. It's almost. like you feel like you're being just. gaslit and then your media won't cover a. lot of it. >> That's right. So, I don't know what's. going I don't know. And I don't know. what's going on. >> I was on I was on the Piers Morgan show. not too long ago. I I go on every couple. of months and. >> I've never been on his show. What's that. guy like? >> Oh, he's he's a good guy, too. And I. have to admit. >> tall or not? >> I haven't met him in person, actually. Only on Zoom. >> I always wondered how tall he was. Somebody said he was like 5'5", dude. >> What? >> Yeah. >> That would surprise 6'1"?

>> 6'1"? >> That makes more sense. >> Maybe the exchange rate on him or. something. >> Yeah. It's the exchange rate. So, um I. was on his show and I was with um. Scott Horton, who's one of the most. brilliant people I I've ever met. Um and. Alan Dershowitz and uh Danny Ayalon, General Danny Ayalon. Um and a former Israeli general. And. What There we are. Hey, there we are. So, uh. >> [laughter]. >> So, when when you're on with Dershowitz,

Dershowitz never shuts his mouth. >> Oh. >> That's it. That was what I was going to. say. >> Let's see. Former CIA agent John. Kiriakou uh believes Jeffrey. >> Oh, no. That wasn't it. That's Jeffrey. Epstein. Uh no, it was about It was. about Hamas and Gaza and he asked me cuz. I had said the least on this episode. And he said, "Do you believe that Hamas. is a terrorist organization?" And I said. I said, "Yes, if the point was on. October 7th was to attack civilians, the. definition of terrorism.

is the act of using violence to instill. terror in a a civilian population. So, that's the definition of terrorism. So, yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization." He. said, "Uh do you believe October 7th was. a terrorist attack?" And I said, "Yes.". He said, "Then what are you doing on. this show?". I was supposed to be in the like. anti-Israel, I guess, or whatever. And I. said, "Piers, you can't have as a policy. just kill everybody. Women, children, the elderly, wipe out every hospital, every school, every apartment block.

That's genocide." know. >> Yeah. >> Somebody's got to say it. >> Yeah. I mean, it's scary. And then And then. And then to think, how would our country. be okay right now with us joining. military forces with a group that's. doing that? >> I'm sure not okay. And then then you. have to ask, what about these people. like. Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham. Lindsey. Graham said the other day a week ago. that until I breathe my last breath, I. will stand with Israel. Why?

Why? >> Oh, that dude's just the Newt Rockne of. >> god. And Cruz is just as bad. And these. clowns from Florida that have that wear. IDF uniforms on the floor of the house, they should be arrested. >> even see that. >> It was Congressman. Fine. >> But you're like an eight you're supposed. to have like a read on these types of. things. Like, what do you think's going. on? >> I think it's AIPAC money. I think it's two things. It's AIPAC. money, millions upon millions and. millions of dollars in American.

politics. So, they have an inordinate influence on. our political system. And AIPAC is the. only group of its kind that does not. have to register as a foreign agent. >> Right. >> You know, I've made a I've made a point. on a couple of podcasts. Back in 2000 like eight, I got a very small contract, just I. don't know, five six thousand bucks, to. write four op-eds in support of the Abu. Dhabi Chamber of Commerce.

So, I wrote these op-eds, "Oh, you. should do business in Abu Dhabi. It's. really business-friendly. They love. Americans. Everybody makes money. All. right. Send.". I had to register as a foreign agent. >> Mhm. >> Because I was uh I was. I was publishing in support of a foreign. entity. >> Interesting. >> What the heck is AIPAC doing 24/7? How come they don't have to register as. foreign agents? >> Yeah, and I I get I think it seems like. we have our our uh. our people our government officials are. afraid to stand up to them. I don't know. why though. >> afraid. And then you have these morons.

>> do you think they're afraid? Well, why. do you think they're afraid? >> primary. >> Like even if you get primary, but like. you would. eventually somebody will win, right? You. like yes, but but. >> who among them has the courage to be the. first? I mean, Massie stood up. Massie took it. I I saw him about a week. before the election. >> But he can't be the only person in. there. >> Well, Marjorie Taylor Greene, but she. didn't have the guts. She quit. She quit halfway through the Well, what. are they What do you think. >> they're compromising with these people?

Like what are they saying to them? Are. they saying like something bad is going. to happen? Like what do you suggest? >> will never work in politics ever again. We will hound you for the rest of your. career. >> if you lose then what do you have any Do. you have Do you have nothing to lose. then? >> Yeah, that's what you and I say. You and. I would say would stand up. Yeah. >> Bring up the thing about the just the. government just like the government's. being interacted those two are that. right uh. The House Armed Services Committee has. unveiled its proposed 2027 National. Defense Authorization Act, which would.

see a record-shattering $1.15 trillion. spend on the US military over the next. fiscal year. Among the bill's many. provisions is section 224 entitled the. United States Israel Defense Technology. Cooperation Initiative. Uh the provision would bring the US and. Israel into an unprecedented partnership. covering technology sharing, the. co-production of weapon systems, and. bilateral research and development. across multiple domains of warfare, including biotech, autonomous systems, AI, cyber warfare, and more. Well, this. could just mean that we are.

uh. we're employing technology that they. have, right? Is there any more specifics. about this? >> closer than that. I'll tell you what, if. if. >> And I'm not saying it isn't. Look, it. definitely scares me. I mean, I don't. want to be involved with a country. that's doing something like that. And I. don't think that's crazy [clears throat]. for me to say that either. >> Even if it's just this, um that means they're not going to have. to steal the 2% of defense technology. that we don't give them. I'll give you. an example. When I was still there, we were. developing the F-35. So, they came to us.

and they said, "We want the F-35. We. want want to be the first ones to have. the F-35." We said, "Great. We're going. to have We're going to give you the. F-35. We're going to call it the F-35i. for Israel. And it's going to have just a barely. slightly degraded um, avionics system. just in case, God forbid, you know, that it doesn't get shot down. and then the Chinese and the Russians. get it and then they can steal the. avionics. They said, "No, not good. enough. We want the We want the F-35, the same one that you guys fly." In the.

meantime, the Emirates came to us and. they said, "We want the F-35." We said, "Great. We're going to give you the. F-35e, we're going to call it for. Emirates, and it's going to have just a. slightly degraded avionics package, same. thing we're giving the Israelis." They. said, "Fine, we'll take it.". >> [snorts]. >> The Israelis. then tasked their spies. with stealing. whatever the downgrade was in the in the. avionics so that they could re-upgrade. it once they took delivery of the F-35. Well, now we're just going to share. everything with them. We'll just give. them the F-35. >> But can you I like can you fault a.

country like it's kind of interesting. cuz. I think if you if you think that we're. playing like that the I I guess I always. felt like we were out of the. colonization era. >> I'm with you. >> And and. >> And I know what you're getting at. >> And so, it's like. you can't fault a country really for. just trying to survive. >> I don't. >> Right. And And I'm not saying you are. I'm thinking I'm thinking out loud. But. let me finish this sentence real quick. >> Sure. Sure. >> Sorry, John. But yeah, you can't fault like, you. know, if a country's just trying to. survive and they're good at it and.

better at it than others, then it's like. that has to be respected in in some. senses, for sure. >> Agreed. I don't fault the Israelis for. doing this. If I were the prime minister. of Israel, I would do the same thing. when it comes to acquiring defense. technology. I fault the US government and it makes. not one whit of difference if there's a. Democrat in the White House or a. Republican in the White House. We don't. stand up to the Israelis. >> Yeah. >> You know, I will say Reagan did in the. so-called year of the spy when Jonathan.

Pollard was uh No, it actually wasn't. Reagan by then. It was Clinton, wasn't. it? Clinton stood up and said, "We're going. to prosecute this guy Pollard." He got. 30 years and he did every single day of. the 30 years. >> Mhm. Peaked in '84. >> Jonathan Pollard. >> When was he arrested? '85. Okay, so it. was Reagan. It was Reagan. He did every. single day of the 30 years. And um then when he got out of prison.

Miriam Adelson or not Miriam Adelson, her husband. It was uh what's his name? Adelson. Uh the the king of Las Vegas. sent his private jet. The jet took Pollard to Israel. Netanyahu met him at the airport. He. kissed the ground and in an interview. Sheldon Adelson in an interview he urged. American Jews to take up arms against. the American government.

And then. Huckabee meets with him. and welcomes him into the American. Embassy. I would have shot him if he had. come into the American Embassy and I. were the ambassador. >> Yeah, I just don't understand. I think. it makes it like I don't know. I think a. lot of people are looking for guidance. right now. I think you're right. If. you're a regular person who we're just. trying to get through the week, we want. to believe in our country. We get scared. that our taxes are going towards like. >> Yeah. >> violent things and evil things. That's. the thing. It starts to feel like. there's something evil going on. Um.

>> Yeah, and it's not like. we're right and everybody else in the. rest of the world is wrong. You know, you look at these votes. >> know if I'm right about anything. >> You You look [snorts] at these votes at. the UN General Assembly. and it's. everybody in the world voting yes, and. voting no is the United States. I'm. serious about this cuz I served at the. UN. It's the United States, Israel, Costa Rica, and Palau. A A little island with 30,000 people in. the Pacific. That's it. And the whole. rest of the world is voting the other.

way. >> You've talked to Like you've worked in. counterterrorism. >> Mhm. >> Is it weird like terrorism is such an. interesting term, but cuz it's like at a. certain point it feels like. we're chasing the tail of the dog we let. loose, kind of. Does that make any sense. even? >> Yeah, I like that. I might steal that. >> Yeah, steal it. I don't even know. exactly what it means, but um. you know, they just had a They I saw. something the other day. It was like uh. $300 billion.

to rebuild. um. parts of. I don't think it's Iran, but I think. it's Libya. Can you look that up? $300. billion to. rebuild parts of Libya? >> That we That we blew up. That we just. blew up. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So right here, it says a truce $300. billion investment plan in Hormuz. What's in the deal draft that can end. US-Iran war. US and Iran mediators are. now engaged in high-stakes negotiations. aimed at ending the conflict despite a. fragile ceasefire in the place and.

months of turmoil in the Middle East. The possible truce plan includes key. bargaining points between the two two. sides, including a $300 billion. investment package. uh and the crucial Strait of Hormuz. issue, making the agreement extremely. closely. watched for. However, one of the biggest developments. emerging from the discussions is a. proposed multi-billion dollar. reconstruction and investment package. that could fundamentally reshape Iran's. economy if a final deal is reached. So it's just why It's like we just went.

there. and got involved in this. I don't know. if this is a taxpayer thing. >> God, I hope not. >> But just the whole thing is like uh I. don't know. You start to feel so defeated sometimes. >> Yeah, isn't that the truth? >> And you start to feel like your vote. isn't going to do anything. >> Yes, yes. >> That's the scary part. And then part of. this feels like a long-term side up. Like it's a slow weakening of the. values. Like, "Okay, let's put things in. this society over time that'll like, you. know, tear apart the American family and.

like that'll like poison people and. let's Do you think they're like. there's big side ups like that going on. like let's put COVID out there so that. uh people are separate from each other. and um and that people can't go to. meetings and meet up and so you start to. deteriorate the value of human. connection and uh let's put let's make. food so that it's just poisoning people. and that it's um you know, that it's. it's just going to you know, it's going. to make people sicker. Let's make health. care so it's not There's no real way uh.

besides extreme stress that you have to. go through if you even have to make a. claim. Like, you know, do you think that. uh some of that is just corporate greed. and stuff or do you think some of that's. a longer-term side up by like bigger. powers out there? >> I I don't I I don't think it's a part of. a bigger side up. But I do believe firmly that it's mostly. corporate greed. You know, you just. reminded me of something I saw. Excuse me, I saw recently. Um and it was this experiment that I.

don't know, somebody did. I saw it on. YouTube. Where. they put a. They they put a homemade um. hamburger on the ground. and they put a. a McDonald's Quarter Pounder on the. ground and then they photographed it, you know, over the course of days and. then weeks and then months. Bugs come. Ants come. They they go to. the to the hamburger. They tear the bun. down. Mostly they went for the meat, but. they end up, you You a week later it's.

just a spot on the sidewalk. Even bugs won't touch a McDonald's. hamburger. And then months later, it's it looks. like it just came out of the package. >> Yeah. >> And Europeans can't understand how we. eat like that. >> Yeah. >> Like the their laws are different. McDonald's can't do that in in European. countries. >> Yeah, let's look up the ingredients. right here. The difference between uh. McDonald's Europe and. McDonald's America. >> 10 plus ingredients versus four. ingredients. >> Wow, so the US has 10 plus ingredients.

and yeah, Europe has four ingredients. In the US, potatoes, vegetable oil, uh hydrogenated soybean oil, natural. beef flavor, wheat and milk derivatives, dextrose, sodium acid fice. pyroso pyrophosphate. and salt. >> pyrophosphate. >> pyrophosphate, thank you. And then. Europe has potatoes, non-hydrogenated. oil, uh rapeseed or sunflower, and dextrose. >> And look below that. >> And those are contains hydrogenated.

>> oils, beef flavoring, and TBHQ, which. are banned restricted in EU. >> [laughter]. >> These are for the french fries. It says. contains hydrogenated oils, beef. flavoring, TBHQ, uh and then it says for Europe that. those are those exactly things are. banned and restricted in the EU. Um. What about the burger? Yeah, what does. it say? The US beef is 100% pure beef. The. additives several hundred additives.

>> Several hundred additives. >> Prohibited in EU. And uh let me see. Europe says 100% beef from British Irish. farmers, no hormone treated beef, and. then uh the additives are stricter. quality control and fewer additives. >> Look at Look at the big Big Mac sauce. The special sauce on the Big Mac. contains HFCS, xanthan gum, propylene. glycol alginate, and caramel color. >> What the. >> Why? >> I I just I get so at some point you have.

to be like, "Well, what happened?" You. know? Um and while the Europe. uh Big Mac sauce contains simpler. ingredients list uh and 40 fewer. calories, it says. Um. the differences are EU food regulations. are much stricter, uh customer. preferences and local supply chains. vary, um and the US fries would likely be. illegal to sell in Europe due to. ingredient restrictions. >> Have you ever seen what's in the McRib? >> Mhm. >> I'll tell you what, I I loved those. McRibs.

>> Well, the black community goes bonkers. when they come back. I know that. >> to McDonald's for McRib, but then when. you see what's in it, you're like, "Oh. my god.". >> Well, yeah, dude. Anybody thinking it. has anything to do with a. animal, the McRib? But at certain point, we are also guilty. >> are. >> It's like if I Yeah. >> It's our own laziness, and we give in, and we just go do it. >> That's a big part of it. So, that's. what's interesting, too, right now. It's. like there's a real test of like what do. I, you know, how much do I want to stand. up for myself? And but then also, how.

much can I? Some people are trapped. financially by certain abilities and. restrictions. >> Yeah. So, it's just kind of interesting, and. it's tough. Um and I don't want to get. all super dour. Um what. uh. do you feel like there are a lot of uh. foreign agents in America right now? >> Oh, yeah. In fact, there's an. advertisement that you see on the sides. of buses around Washington saying that. and and it's the the advertisement is to. visit the Spy Museum.

that there are between 10 and 15,000. foreign intelligence officers in. Washington, D.C. >> In Washington, D.C.? >> More than. anywhere else on the planet. >> Wow. Do you think that's real? >> There's a spy on this bus. >> Oh, that's what that advertisement says? >> That's part of the. Thank you, Edward Snowden. Um it's part. of the advertising campaign. >> Yeah. And it's a campaign to. >> To what? To hire more of them? >> No, no, to get people to go to the spy. museum. >> Oh, it's to get them to go to the spy. museum. Dude, I've been in the spy.

museum before. It's awesome. >> It's great. >> Spy museum is so good. >> really great. >> I agree. >> Times were different back in the day. when it was like you'd like be like. using a secret pen or like you'd have a. homing pigeon with like a little. backpack on. >> it's all so crazy sophisticated. I was. just telling somebody the other day. Um about uh. the the uh CIA trained cats to wander. onto the Soviet Embassy compound with. collars that had listening devices on.

them just to see what the Russians were. saying when they come out of the. embassy. But that didn't work cuz you. can't train the cats. So they trained. pigeons and they put little listening. devices around their pigeon little. pigeon feet. Um and they would land on. the window sills. But the thing is that. the Russians had double pane glass and. they were piping music in between the. two panes of glass. So the pigeons. couldn't hear anything. >> [laughter]. >> What a game like what a game of like uh. espionage, huh? >> much fun. >> That's so See, that kind of stuff is so.

exciting. Now it feels like um I don't. know. It feels like we're entering. something like a surveillance state or. >> We are. We are. It's not like the old. days. You know one of the best. recruitments I ever made, Theo. I was doing surveillance on this guy for. a week. I I thought, you know, this guy. would be an interesting target. He doesn't have He doesn't make much. money. Um. >> Who you were doing surveillance on a. guy? >> On a guy. >> And what does that mean you're doing. surveillance? You're like you're. wandering around in the distance? >> Yes. That's exactly what it means. Yeah. You're just wandering around in the. distance. Watch him every day, see where.

he goes, what he does, where he hangs. out, who he talks to. His His wife had. left [clears throat] him. But I noticed he walked his dog every. morning at 6:30. >> Dang. >> Every morning he'd leave the house at. 6:30 and he would walk across the park, the dog would do his business, and then. he'd walk back. So I asked in the. office, I said, "Hey, does anybody have. a dog?" And one of the women's like, "Yeah, I have a dog." I said, "Can I. borrow your dog for a week?" She says, "For what?" I said, "I want to I want to. accidentally bump into this guy. and while he's walking his dog, I want.

to walk your dog and then I meet him and. I'm going to say hello and then the next. day I'm going to say hello again and the. third day I'm going to invite him to. lunch and whatever.". It was the best recruitment I ever made. in my entire career. And we bonded over the dogs and it. wasn't even my dog. At the end of the. week, I just gave her a dog back. >> And did you learn something from the. guy? >> Oh my god. This guy was like every case officer's. dream recruitment. >> And what do you recruit means somebody. that you're just you're get trying to. gain intel from? >> The the person you you pitch him, you.

say, "Look, I'm with the CIA.". >> Oh, you're paid you told him that. >> Oh, yeah, I'm with the CIA. I know who. you are. I know what you do and I'm. willing to pay you very handsomely to. give it to me. And he's like, "How handsomely is. handsome?". And I gave him a number. >> What's that number ballpark? >> Well, this is 25 years ago. And then it was $5,000 a month. It would. probably be 20,000 a month now. And um. >> Good money. >> And he wanted all of his expenses. I. said, "What expenses do you think you're.

going to have?". >> Yeah. What dog shots for the dog? >> right? So, oh, he nickel and dimed me. the expenses. And my boss would always. say, "Just just give it to him. Just. give it to him." Cuz the information was. so great. So, we had these. >> Information about what? >> His country. >> Oh. >> in the embassy. >> Got it. >> of his country. And uh. I gave him a disposable cell phone and. back then, you had to buy these little. cards at the convenience store and you. scratch them off and you put the number. in your phone and it gives you units,

you know? >> that. >> And um. So, the phone was always supposed to be. used to call me. He used it for. everything. He gave me like $800 phone. bills at the end of the month. And I'm like, "Come on, Come on. >> That's awesome. >> grand already. >> That dude's a freaking snake. I love. that. >> Yeah. My boss just just pay it. Just pay. it. >> Acoustic Kitty. >> Oh my gosh. Oh, it's an Oh. >> Acoustic Kitty was a Central. Intelligence Agency project launched by.

the. Directorate of Science and Technology in. the 1960s. It was intended to use cats. to spy on the Kremlin and Soviet. embassies. In an hour-long procedure, a veterinary. surgeon implanted a microphone in the. cat's ear canal, a small radio. transmitter at the base of its skull. Dear God. And a thin wire into its fur. This would allow the cat to innocuously. record and transmit sound from its. surroundings. Due to problems with. distraction, the cat's sense of hunger.

>> sees a bird. >> had to be addressed in another. operation. >> [laughter]. >> $20 million. >> $20 million, dude. And that's your. Somali fraud right there. The first Acoustic Kitty mission was to. eavesdrop on two men in a park outside. the Soviet embassy in Washington, D.C. The cat was released nearby, but was hit. and allegedly killed by a taxi almost. immediately. However, this was disputed. Uh. The equipment was taken out of the cat. The cat was re-sewn for a second time.

and lived a long and happy life. afterwards. That sounds like a cover-up. >> Nothing to see here, folks. >> Just a cat that has call waiting, you. know? That's a insane. >> I worked with this one guy. who was going to a denied area. A denied. area is a place where CIA people just. can't go, right? But he looks kind of. ethnic and he could fit into, you know, whatever the culture. And so I said, "Buddy, aren't you afraid. of uh like being kidnapped and then we. just never see you again?" And he said,

"Yeah, they offered to implant a. a chip, a beacon, that a ping. in my butt crack." He says. And I said, "Nah, leave my butt crack alone.". >> Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. That's fair. >> [laughter]. >> I think that should be our national. anthem. Um. How wary do people have to be of being. spied upon today? Do you think like. there's a lot of these new like data. center projects. >> and stuff like that that's going on with. that. Um.

First let's talk yeah, real quick about. the data centers. What do you think is. really going on? Because if you look at. the the size of these places. Like we don't need that much data. Like. we're already using our phones. We. already have like. televisions. Like you know, there's. already like a lot of stuff being stored. on servers. How are we jumping to a. level where we need that? That's what I. want to know. >> Oh, I have to agree. Besides the fact. that they use massive amounts of water. And oddly enough, they're located in a. lot of states that don't have a ton of. water, like Texas.

>> Yeah. >> Or you go out to Loudoun County, Virginia. Okay, we have enough water. But Loudoun County, Virginia, you drive. for miles and miles and they're just. these never-ending gigantic complexes of. data centers. >> The proposed Stratus project in Utah is. a massive 40,000 acre. >> in Utah. >> a 40,000 acre AI data center campus. um. >> two and a half times larger than. Manhattan. >> Yeah. I wonder how long the actual data how.

big the. >> Oh, and and just the data center. requires more than double the current. energy consumption of the entire state. of Utah. >> Yeah. >> Come on. >> I mean, that's unbelievable. What do you. think is really going on there? Do you. have any intel about it? >> You have to assume that this is intel. related. Because look at the the. companies that are involved. We're. talking about Palantir and Nvidia and. Abraxas and all these these big. companies that either took CIA. investments to get started as seed money. or um.

or are staffed by retired senior CIA. officers. They're not doing it for their health. Why is this CIA So, is the CIA now is. spying on our own people? Oh, yeah, that's what Ed Snowden warned. us about. Yeah, without Ed Snowden's. revelations, we wouldn't have any idea. that NSA and CIA were spying on. Americans. Which is not just illegal, it's a part of NSA's charter that it may. not spy on Americans. And this place in Utah?

Um, he and Julian Assange told us about. Utah. This new compound in Utah that NSA has. built has enough memory, storage space. for every phone call, every email, and. every text message from every American. for the next 500 years. >> Wow. >> Why? >> Just that building? >> Uh-huh. >> Then why do they need all these. buildings? >> Yeah, why? They're everywhere. >> What are they collecting? >> I'm not sure. >> And that's it. They It's like what It. must be It's got to be all of our.

information. What would you do right now? Is there. any way that people can protect. themselves? Do you know? >> It's almost impossible now. I I wrote a. series of books during COVID for. Skyhorse Publishing, the CIA Insiders. Guides to surveillance and surveillance. detection, uh, lying and lie detection, and. disappearing and living off the grid. They put them together and they're. republishing them in the next month, I. guess. >> Mhm. >> Um, as one volume, CIA Skills, Tactics, and.

The Ultimate Guide to CIA Skills, Tactics, and Techniques. >> There we go. >> But, when it comes to protecting yourself. from from, you know, the data state, you got to go Eric Rudolph. or Unabomber. and just own no technology at all. It's. the only way to protect yourself. Otherwise, you're going to be scooped up. in all this. Now, the odd thing is, according to Ed Snowden, uh, NSA, CIA,

other governmental organizations are. scooping up all this data and they're. just holding it. Why? Why are they holding it? Now, time. was really until the immediate post-9/11. uh. period where if the government wanted. your information, they had to go to a. federal judge and say, "We want Theo. Von's information and this is the reason. we want it." And the judge had to say, "Okay, that's a legitimate reason. I'll. sign the warrant.". Now, they just write something called a. national security letter.

They give it to your provider. and they say, "Give us everything you. have on Theo Von." And they just turn it. over. Or they [clears throat] go to these new. data centers. and uh and just put your name in, your. information, and everything pops up. They don't even You don't have any legal. protections. They just take whatever they want. >> And that's legal now they can do that? >> legal now. >> How'd that become legal? >> In the National Defense Act of of 2016. National Defense Authorization Act of. 2016. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Which also, this is a a pet peeve.

of mine that nobody knows about. It also for the first time in American. history allowed the American government. to propagandize the American people. It was always illegal for our government. to propagandize us. >> What does it mean? >> Well, for example, the Voice of America, that's our government's propaganda news. outlet. And we beam it overseas so. everybody gets the official US point of. view. Okay. Back in the in the '80s, the Reagan.

administration came up with with these. two broadcasters called uh Radio Marti. and TV Marti to beam at Cuba. The Cubans try to jam them all the time, but what they mostly are used for is uh. to broadcast baseball games in Spanish, which the Cubans love. >> Got it. >> I flew down to Cuba to to do a study. I. did a study for the Senate Foreign. Relations Committee when I was the chief. investigator there. And um. nobody watches TV Marti. You can only.

actually get it in the. waiting room of the US consulate. >> Got it. >> So, if you're there to apply for a visa, you can watch a soap opera in Spanish. that's American propaganda. Nobody. cares. Radio, people like listening to. baseball. So, DISH Network, when it began. when it began selling um services in. Florida, found that there was this just. narrow swath along the shore on the on.

the west coast of Florida where you. could pick up TV Marti. That's illegal. You can't propagandize the American. people. >> Got it. >> As Americans, we're not allowed to watch. our own government's propaganda. So, instead of telling DISH Network, well, you're going to have to like move. your satellite or do something or. pixelate it or whatever, said, "No, no, no, we'll change the. law.". And so, in the National Defense. Authorization Act of 2016, the Obama.

administration said, "You know, we can. propagandize Americans now.". >> Wow. >> And and so, now radio TV are no problem. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> But I mean, we're always propagandized. I mean, people put out propaganda all. the time. >> Yeah. I went to Yemen in 2011. uh when I was with the Senate Foreign. Relations Committee. My first trip to. Yemen. Every time I'd go to Yemen, it's worse. than the previous time. So, I have a meeting with the defense. attaché. And he was so proud of this thing that. he was doing, this psyop. I hate that.

word. Psyop. I said, "Sure, what's your. what's your psyop?" And he goes, "We're. funding a radio station here modeled on. NPR. And it plays American jazz. And then, it has a call-in show So, young Yemeni guys can call in and talk. about the jazz. I'm like, "What the are you talking. about? That's a terrible idea. Nobody's going to listen to that." And. nobody did, and they shut it down after. a year.

But that's that's what we're doing? >> But what was the goal of it even? >> To make people pro-American, cuz they. would be like, "Oh, Americans have. jazz.". >> Oh, I see what. >> So, I'm going to be pro-American now. It's like, "What are you thinking? You. You sit there and say. >> like money laundering. >> Yes, seriously. >> That's what it sounds like. Um. How do I know I can believe you about. anything, kind of? People ask you that. all the time? >> Oh, yeah, people ask me all the time. Um. >> Cuz who would believe anybody that's. ex-CIA? Who would even, you know what. I'm saying? >> Oh, that's such a thing with me. You know, generally I don't read the.

chats. Anywhere. Right? >> Mhm. >> Everybody I talk to. I your level, you, Tucker Carlson, you. know, Patrick Bet-David, Rogan, whomever. They never read the chats. Sometimes I can't help it. And I'll scan. them. The only time I ever respond is when. people say, "Once CIA, always CIA.". You You thought of You thought of. all of that all up on your own, huh? >> true. That's true. >> So, I said I said to one guy, I said,

"You know what? Let me call Ed Snowden. and the sons of Philip Agee and Ray. McGovern and tell them that you think. they're all still in the CIA.". >> Mhm. >> So, I went to prison for telling the. truth. And I would. >> point. >> I would do it again in a heartbeat. In a. heartbeat. Nobody else has gone to prison for. ratting out the CIA and its illegal, you. know, programs. I was proud to do it. >> That's a good answer.

>> Thank you. >> It's a really good answer. >> [laughter]. >> If you Look at here it is. I can say you. this. If you really went to jail and. everything, then it's a great answer. And if you did. I'll believe you. I'll believe you. But. also, there's a little part of me that's. like, if he didn't then that's. even colder that he's making it up and. living it. That's the most CIA. >> would be pretty intense. >> But that's what I'm saying. >> Yeah, yeah. No, nobody hate in the world. hates me as much as my ex-wife. does. And. >> From spending all that time in the CIA. or in jail? At least jail you have a.

good excuse. >> but she came every month with the kids. and visited me in jail for 2 years. Yeah. >> And so why does she hate you then? >> Oh no, that's that's all. Yeah, post. story. Post Yeah, I'm actually. prohibited by court order from answering. that question. >> [laughter]. >> Well, that's I think that's amazing that. she did that and brought your kids to do. it. >> she was great. She was great. >> A lot of wives I mean I think it's a I. can't even imagine it's a tough thing. for families, especially if you had. young children. Um. Kudos to her for that. >> Yeah. >> Um.

Was being in prison kind of fun? >> Um fun? No. I No, I wouldn't say fun. >> Like what was kind of cool about it? I've always wanted to go to jail. >> you know, there's this old saying that. you don't go to jail to make friends. And I made some lifelong friends in. jail. Um mostly named Gambino, Lucchese, Bonanno. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Genovese. >> So a lot of good storytellers in there I.

bet. >> [gasps and sighs]. >> Listen, those guys. were so honorable. I learned so much from those guys in. just 23 months. >> Wow. >> Uh lessons I'll carry with me forever. Real honor. It's funny, the Italians. were the smallest They they call them. gangs in prison. The Italians weren't a. gang. This is I'll I'll use the word. gang just for the purpose of this. response. They were the smallest gang in the. prison, yet commanded the highest level. of respect. >> Really? More than the blacks and the.

Latinos? >> The blacks and Latinos were always at at. each other's throats. And they had Like. for example, it was Crips and Bloods. and there was this uneasy peace between. them just because it's not worth. upsetting the apple cart and everybody. goes to solitary and then get spread out. all over the country. For the Latinos it. was far more complicated because it was. Burachus, Norteños, Latin Kings, MS-13. um. Mexican Mafia and then the individual.

cartels. So overall there's one gigantic Hispanic. prison gang called Pisces. and then within Pisces are all the. different divisions. >> Gosh. >> Yeah, and the Pisces if you were. Hispanic you were automatically in. Pisces whether you liked it or not and. you had to work out every single day. >> Oh, that's pretty good. >> for the coming race war with the blacks. >> Mhm. >> Right. And the whites are like. uh then we have nothing to do with this. >> Yeah, I just want to I would just want. to do it just to get in shape but.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Sometimes you need motivation. >> We had we had Aryan Brotherhood. >> What's that? What are they doing? What. are they up to? >> You know Aryan Brotherhood of Texas is. far more violent than Aryan Brotherhood. and they're not uh it says there right. there they're not connected. Um I never. met anybody from the Aryan Brotherhood. of Texas. Aryan Brotherhood. at a low security prison. just wants to sort of you know go along. to get along. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You stay out of my way I'll stay. out of yours. My very first day in.

prison my very first hour in prison. when the when the guard dropped me off. in my cell the only thing he said to me. the whole time I was. you know checking in and getting. processed. was if. somebody comes into your cell uninvited. that's an act of aggression and I said. great thank you. I've been here 40. minutes I'm going to get my ass kicked. now. Sure enough as soon as he left these two. guys walked into my cell just walked. right in. One of them had a swastika.

that took up his entire neck and then. came up onto his face and the other one. had you tattooed on his eyelids. >> Oh yeah, that checks. I mean that's. yeah. >> And so I jump up. I go, "What do you. want?". Cuz I thought, you know, if I'm going. down, I'm taking one of them down with. me at least. "What do you want?". And the the one with the swastika he. says, "You the new guy?" I go, "Yeah, so?". >> Is this like a This sounds like a story. from like the 1940s, John. >> Isn't it awful? >> It would It would sound real though. >> in my second book, "Prison is a.

combination of seventh grade, The Lord. of the Flies, and a mental institution, and it's set in the 1950s.". >> That's hilarious. >> So I go, "What do you want?" He's He. goes, "You the new guy?" I said, "Yeah, so?" And he goes, I'm standing there. like this. He goes, "You a faggot?". And I go, "No, I'm not a faggot.". He He says, >> And they were bummed out? >> "You a rat?" No, no No gays allowed. "You a rat?" And I said, "No, I'm not a. rat." "You a chomo?" I go, "I don't know. what that word means.".

>> [laughter]. >> He goes, "Chomo, child molester." I. said, "No, I'm not a child molester.". >> That's good. >> And then he says, "You can sit with the Aryans in the. cafeteria." And I was like, "Oh.". >> Yeah. >> I guess I'm I'm with the Aryans now. But. then a couple of months later I was. across the hall from from a captain in. the Bonanno family. And he said to me one day, he goes, "Let. me ask you a question.". "Why do you sit with those Nazi retards. every day?". And I said, "I don't know." I said, "My. first day here they just told me to sit.

with them." And he goes, "From today, you are with the Italians.". >> Mhm. >> I said, "It's about time.". >> That was it, yeah. >> Took you long enough. >> You got drafted. >> Yeah. But they were the best. >> Yeah, but a lot of good stories, dude. Any good story come to mind from. somebody you like a good story you heard. in in prison? >> Yeah, there's there's one. I'm actually You're going to think less. of me and I don't care. >> That's fine. I could tell you some stuff. >> [laughter]. >> that would probably make it even.

There was a guy in my housing unit who. was a serial killer. He was called Truck because he drove. long-distance trucks from East Coast to. West Coast. And he would pick up. prostitutes at uh. truck stops and he would rape them and. murder them, drive them a couple of 100. mi down the highway, and then dump the. bodies out. So, the cops estimated that he killed 14. It. was probably more than that. But, um he. strangled one and she survived, and she. was able to give the cops the license. number. Now, this was in the days before. DNA training DNA testing. So,

this guy. >> Before DNA testing? >> was in the '70s. >> Oh, he'd been in for a long time. >> life. >> Got it. >> So, um. for reasons that were never clear to me, this guy constantly sought my approval. He was full of He would come up he. had the worst breath cuz he had just. these blackened rotten nubs where his. >> Oh. >> that used to be his teeth. And he was. saying you can see. >> dicks off, dude. >> awful. Awful. He goes, "You CIA?" And I. said, "Yeah, I used to be." He goes, "I.

did work for the CIA. I ran a shrimp. boat full of weapons to Angola." I go, "Get the out of here." I didn't. know he was a serial killer. I go, "Get. the out of here. A shrimp boat to. Angola? Have you ever been on a shrimp. boat?" And I walked away. People are looking at me like, "Are you. crazy? Do you know who that is?" Well, I. didn't know who it was. So, um. instead of making him mad, it just made. him more actively seek my approval. >> Mhm. >> So, I'm a big Pittsburgh Steelers fan.

>> Oh, yeah. >> And um. he would say, "Hey John, the Steelers. are the game of the featured game of the. week. I saved you a seat in the TV. room." I'm like, "Oh, thanks, Truck.". Like, "Okay." "John, uh I I know you. listen to classic rock. There's a new. classic rock station, 1600 AM. You. should check it out." I'm like, "Okay, thanks, Truck.". In the meantime, there's this guy we called Cat in the. Hat cuz he had this oddly elongated head. like a birth defect, kind of giant Cat. in the Hat head.

And he comes up to me one day and he. said, "Hey, I heard you had a an empty. bunk in your in your cell. I want to. move into your cell. I heard it's a good. cell." And I said, "Well, not so fast, buddy." I said, "We don't allow any. pedophiles in our cell and no rats." I. said, "What's your crime?" He goes, "Murder for hire." And no f-. I don't even care about that. Yeah. >> But the other guy. >> I can't speak for the other guys. >> Yeah, I was just trying to like I was. trying to be part of the group, you. know? But go on. Go on. >> [laughter]. >> So, uh. So, he says, uh.

I in murder for hire. I said, "I don't. think I like that any better than the. pedophiles or the rats. What what were. the circumstances?" And he said, "I owed. the mob a lot of money, 100,000 in. gambling. I couldn't pay it. So, I took. out a life insurance policy on my. business partner and I hired a hitman to. kill him and uh and the hitman got. uh got caught." I said, "Mm, let me. think about it." Well, think about it. I. went straight to the law library and I. looked up his case and that wasn't it at. all. It was true. He owed the mob. 100,000. He took out the life insurance.

policy. He hired the hitman. He got caught cuz of course he's going. to get caught. Where the Where's the. first place the cops are going to go? >> Where the money went. >> ratted out the hitman so that he. wouldn't get the federal death penalty. Instead, he got 20 years. >> Oh. >> So, I said, "No rats in the room.". So, he was mad at me. Anyway, one day Jake Tapper comes up to. the prison to interview me. and I get called down to the. lieutenant's office. Normally, if you're.

called down to the lieutenant's office, it's to go to solitary. If you come. back, usually it's cuz you ratted. somebody out. Well, I went down there to. sign the the waiver so I could give Jake. Tapper the interview. So, I'm sitting in the TV room next to. Truck. Truck was very very sensitive about. being called a chomo cuz that girl that. he strangled was 16 which technically. made him a chomo, right? Right? So, Truck's sitting here, I'm sitting here. Right here is Cat in the Hat with his. back toward me. He's on the computer. There's like this.

internal internet, not internet, internal email system. He doesn't see. me. I'm sitting 18 inches away from him. And then he says to the guy next to him, "Do you hear Kiriaku got called down to. the lieutenant's office?" He goes, "That. guy's a rat. He went down there. to rat us out." And I just sat there. watching the game. And then Truck says, "That guy just called you a. rat?". And I said, "An hour ago I heard him call you a. chomo." Mhm. Which was a total lie. I.

just made it up. He didn't say a single word. He just. stood up, walked over here, and beat. this guy almost to death. They had to land a helicopter in the. yard to life flight Cat in the Hat to. pick. >> It's perfect. >> They gave Truck five more years and Cat. Scan in the Hat, huh? Yeah. Yeah, it's. Cat Scan in the Hat. See, now how come I. didn't think of that? Cuz I'm not a. comedian. I should have put that in my. book. >> know. Is there any real value in me. thinking of that? That's a good. question. I don't know. >> Six weeks later, Cat in the Hat is.

finally released from the hospital. He. comes, he's all up still. And um and he's like this. Somebody had. told him what had happened. He He goes, "I I wanted to say I'm sorry for calling. you a rat. I should never have said. that.". And everybody is stops to look to see. what I'm going to say. Well, what am I. going to say? Uh forget it. It's all. water under the bridge. I go, "Listen. Look at me. Look at me." And he lifts. his head up. And I said, "So help me God, if I ever.

hear my name cross your lips ever again, you're dead. And they won't even find. you.". "I'm sorry. I'm sorry.". So, everybody's like, "Huh?". The CI guy is tough after all.". But, I said in the book, one of my rules. that I learned at the CIA, let others do. your dirty work. And then I get called. down to the lieutenant's office again. Because as he's beating him, I sat back. down. I'm watching the game. Everybody. else runs. As soon as there's a fight, everybody just runs like cockroaches.

>> though, man. >> Right? So, I'm watching the game. "Kiriakou, lieutenant's office, immediately." They always do it the same. way. It's like a They're They're. caricatures of themselves. So, I go down. there. And the one of the lieutenants, there. are two of them, and he says, "So, tell. us about this fight.". And I go, "What fight?". "What fight? You're going to be smart. guy now?" I said, "I don't know what the. you're talking about.". "The fight. We had four cameras. showing you saying something to that.

crazy person, and then he got up and. beat the other guy." I said, "I was. watching the Steelers game. I don't know. what you're talking about.". "Oh, you're not going to tell us about. the fight." I said, "You know what? Maybe I will tell you about the fight. Maybe it was you that started the fight. Did you ever think of that? Maybe it. wasn't me. I was an innocent bystander. Maybe you put them up to fight each. other. I think I might make a complaint. against you." He goes, "Get the out. of my office." And I wrote in my book, rule number one,

admit nothing, deny everything, make. counter accusations. And as I was walking out, I just said, "Exactly.". >> Dang, bro. I don't even know what to. think anymore. >> You know, I figured. >> Sometimes that's where you get people to. that point. You're like, this you know, it's like. >> me and pushed me and pushed me. And at. sentencing, the judge sentenced me to a. minimum security work camp, and the CIA. was furious that I got such a light. sentence and I was going to minimum. security camp. So, the CIA intervened to.

send me to a media Sorry, a low security. prison, which is an actual prison, with. the double you know, walls and. >> They were furious that. >> Cuz yeah, I was? >> When I was first charged, I mean, this is a potential death. penalty case. Three counts of espionage. for talking to ABC News and the New York. Times. >> Cuz you were talking to them about uh. about uh torture, right? >> Mhm. >> What cases specifically were you talking. to them about? >> Abu Zubaydah.

Mhm. And they were furious because. nobody had ever confirmed that there was. a torture program. And I said it was illegal. Besides being. immoral and unethical, it's illegal. You. want to torture people, God bless, but. you got to change the law first. We're a. nation of laws. >> Which countries do you think had the. most the like the toughest torture. programs over the years? >> [sighs]. >> Or do you even know? >> Over the years, you like let's go back a. hundred years. The Chinese, the Vietnamese, and the. Belgians.

The Belgians, if you can imagine, the. the horrors that they perpetrated in. Congo. It. of of. >> Mhm. >> epic proportions. Um [snorts]. Yeah, the Russians, the Iranians, the. Israelis, the United States. >> Is it weird like cuz we talk about the. term terrorism now, but it's like it. definitely feels like when we talked. about it a few a little bit of earlier, it's like it feels sometimes it's like. how much is America like a terrorist. state in the world? And I hate to say.

that because this is the country that we. live in, yeah, but it's like I think at. a certain point if you use. it you know, I I don't know. I don't. know, you know, it's got to be hard to. figure that out. But it's like um. you know, it's like when do you use like. fear tactics and and that sort of thing. to make sure that everything's okay, you. know? Um. yeah, I don't know. It's like. do you Here's my question. Do you think. it's possible for America to get to a. place uh. where we're an actual peacekeeper?

Or do you think it's possible to keep. peace without terror? Make any sense or not? >> Yeah, that's a hard question. >> Good. >> and and I think my answer has changed. over the years. I believed for a very long time that we. were the good guys. I was a true. believer. That's why I worked there. We. were the good guys. >> And we still I think as people we still. are. As citizens we still are. >> Agreed. We still are. Somebody commented. on a Facebook post that I made the other.

day. Like. I heard you say that the United States. is the best country in the world. You. should be ashamed of yourself. I was. like, I believe that the United States. is the best country in the world. That's. why I live here. >> Yeah. >> I could go live in some other country if. I wanted to, but this is the best. country in the world. We have problems. Every country has problems. But the. reason why I'm as active and as vocal as. I am is because I want to change the. things that I disagree with. I don't think we should be a nation that.

tortures people, or murders people. without trial. If somebody is a clear. and present danger, which is the. language that's used in the amendment to. 12333. Okay. Clear and present danger. They're. getting ready to, you know, deliver the. dirty bomb, or you know, whatever. Okay. Sometimes we have to work in the. shadows. Awful, but it but it's a fact. of life. But if you just send teams. around the world to kill people whose. politics you don't like.

People who have never been charged with. a crime. Then shame on us. That's not what the. founding fathers gave us. So if you want to torture people, you. got to change the law. Ronald Reagan. said. we were a shining city on a hill, right? We're a beacon of hope for human rights. and civil rights and civil liberties. That's the country I want to be. >> Same. That's what most people want to be. >> Exactly. >> Do you think we can get back to that. place or what do you think?

>> I think it's possible. >> You do? >> I think it's going to take a very long. time, but I think it's possible. >> Mhm. >> And I think we have to start by. by trying to snap out of this mindset. that we have to be the world's. policeman. >> Yeah. >> Like why? I have relatives in Greece and friends. all over Europe and they ask me the same. question all the time. Why are you guys. doing this? >> Yeah. >> Like Like did we really need to. overthrow Libya? Uh. Gaddafi rather in Libya?

>> Yeah, I think. >> I think a lot of people are don't know. what's going on. They just want their. families to be okay. They don't want. data centers. A lot of people do not. want AI. They don't give a about. it. It's not going to benefit them. >> frightened. >> Oh, the Pope is frightened. I'm trying. to get the Pope to come and. offered that I would go to the Vatican. and talk with the Pope. I just want to I. want to learn about what he thinks. >> The Archbishop of the Greek Orthodox. Church just issued an encyclical 100%. supporting everything the Pope said on. this. Wow. >> Yeah, I mean it would be a blessing to. get to talk with him and just learn. I.

just want to like be able to like, you. know, share a message. Be a part of like. not me share but just be like, you know, just part of the. telephone game of of helping or being a. part of the message getting out if I. can. >> Yeah. >> Cuz I do think it's important. We don't. want that. Nobody wants it. 30 people. want it? 100 people want it with a lot. of power? >> Exactly. We don't want it. Exactly. Yes. >> Nobody wants it. I Nobody wants it. >> Yeah, there it is right there. His. encyclical.

>> Yeah. I read about this. I've read part. of the Pope's but I haven't seen this. new one. This is from the Orthodox. Church? >> Yeah, the Greek Orthodox Archbishop. It's Elpidophoros is his name. Endorsing. everything the Pope said about AI. >> Um You have a new podcast. Thanks Sean. for hanging out. Sorry if I haven't had. the best questions at certain points. It's like. >> questions were great and they cut right. to the heart of things. Trying to get my. brain back on track a little bit. It's. just been like a long month, but um. before you do leave, I know you have a. podcast that you're starting your own.

Finally, thank you. >> Finally, thank you. >> on You've been on all of them, so you. have to start your own. And it's called. The Briefing Room? >> Yeah, John Kiriakou's Briefing Room. >> John Kiriakou's Briefing Room. >> We're going to launch it in about 4. weeks. Um if you go to real John Kiriakou on. YouTube, it'll pop up saying coming soon. Please, please, please subscribe. And I have. another one, too, called John Kiriakou's Dead Drop that's. on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It's just. story after story after story and it's.

it's been actually very popular. Been. very lucky. We've gone up to number five. in the history category worldwide. >> Oh, it's exciting. >> Yeah, very exciting. >> Yeah. It's an exciting time. I mean, that's one thing that we also have to. remember is like sure things seem this. way and that way, but also it isn't. like if you can see excitement as like. being of all things. and not just things that seem positive, but things that could seem um. to be decided.

then there is a lot of excitement. And. so that's like a nice way to think about. things. >> Agreed. >> Um. and you did Does your book The Ultimate. Guide to CIA Skills, Tactics, and. Techniques Is there a basic one you can. give us out of the book, man, that's. just something that you can notice about. people when you. >> Yeah, the one I the the part that I'm. proudest of in this book is the section. on surveillance and surveillance. detection. I took it so seriously that I. actually became a surveillance. instructor at the CIA for the last uh 2. years that I was at headquarters. Um.

I'll tell you. something that happened to me when I. [clears throat] was in Pakistan. I was always very, very, very careful. about my own personal security. And um. I noticed one day. I I was staying at a. at a guest house, a little 14-room guest. house. And I noticed one day there's a guy in a. motorcycle. He's trying really hard to. stay in my blind spot. And the only. reason I even noticed him was he had a. red motorcycle helmet on. And nobody in.

Pakistan wore motorcycle helmets. I. don't even know where you would buy a. motorcycle helmet. So, I was like, "Huh, that's funny." I. speed up, he speeds up. I slow down, he. slows down. I change lanes, he changes. lanes. I'm like, "Oh, this this isn't. good." I get to the entrance to the. diplomatic quarter, which was the part. where all the embassies were, and he. breaks off. Well, I work like 14, 15, 16 hours every. single day. I get to work when it's. dark, I leave work when it's dark. And. so, I pull out of the diplomatic quarter. and the guy's on me again. And I was.

like, "Oh, this is. definitely not good." I was worried. about it all night. So, the next morning I get up at 5:00 in. the morning and I'm taking a different. route to work every day. I'm leaving at. a different time every day. My routes to. work don't make any sense. >> Mhm. >> Just to make sure I'm not being. followed. And now twice I am being. followed. There's a definition of. surveillance at the CIA. It's multiple. sightings at time and distance. So, you. see the person more than once at. different times of the day and at. different places.

So, we have a database. So, I put in the. database when I first arrive, I think. I'm under surveillance, it's a. motorcycle, here's the license number, this is a description of the guy, he's. wearing a red helmet. Next day I get up at 5:00 in the. morning. I just open the door a crack. I. look up and down the street, I don't see. anybody. So, they they had assigned us these like. poles, these retracting poles with a. mirror on the bottom. So, I look under. my car, I don't see any explosives or. tracking devices or anything. So, you. got to be careful, you know? So, I get. in the car, I go like two blocks and the.

guy's on me again. So, I finally get to the office. and um I waited for the security officer. to come in and I said, "Listen, I'm. under surveillance. I'm 100% sure I'm. under surveillance. I told him about the. three sightings. He's like woo, this. isn't good. I said I know. He said we. have to wait until the chief comes in. So finally the chief comes in around. 7:00. and I said, I'm under surveillance. 100% certain.

So I explained to him the three. different sightings. And he's like, >> [sighs]. >> well. you know what you have to do. And I said. I I know. He goes, you never popped your cherry. that way, did you? >> Not shoot somebody? >> Uh-huh. I said nope, never needed to. He's like, well, we're going to have. we're going to have teams out there. Don't worry. We're going to have guys. all around you. You're not going to be. alone. I'm like, okay, all right. I was. very worried. So I get back to my. office. My office, it was me. I was the. only staff officer and six retirees who.

had all been in the senior intelligence. service. Every one of the six had either. been the chief or deputy chief of Near. Eastern Operations. One had been the. assistant deputy director of the CIA. But they all came back after 9/11 for. patriotic reasons. But if you're a. contractor, you can't. be the chief. So they all worked for me, right? And word got around. They're like, don't. worry, buddy. We're all going to be out. there. Don't worry about a thing. I'm. like, I'm very worried.

That afternoon, I have a meeting at a. safe house that we shared with the. Pakistani Intelligence Service. We interrogated a prisoner. And I get up to leave. and I don't know what possessed me. to stop and I turn and I said, General. Muhammad, are you following me? And he says, no. Why? I said because I'm under surveillance. I'm 100% sure that I'm under. surveillance and I'm going to kill the. guy this afternoon. And he's like, no, it's not us.

I never saw him again. Mm. So weeks. later. we heard that a bunch of them were. sitting around the table. and one of them said, "The new guy, Kiriaku, he's a nice guy." And everybody's like, "Yeah, he's a very nice guy." And then. one of them said, "You know what? Nobody's that nice. He's probably being nice just to to. trick us. into a sense of complacency. We don't. know what he's doing when he's not here. He's probably spying on us.".

>> Mhm. >> I wasn't. But they put the worst surveillance. officer in the entire Pakistani. intelligence service on me. So, instead. of two blocks back, he's right there in. my blind spot. And it was only because I. stopped before I got to the door that. afternoon and asked General Muhammad. if they were following me, if that's the only reason that guy's not. in the ground today. >> Mhm. >> I was going to kill him that afternoon. >> Oh, yes, I was. >> Dang, John, about to pop off, bro.

>> convinced he was going to kill me. >> That big guy. >> Mhm. >> That's crazy, bro. Dang, dude. I think everybody wants to. shoot somebody. But they don't let you. >> I worked with a guy, great friend, go to. the same church, from the same men's. group. >> let you. >> And he's a psychiatrist. >> [laughter]. >> Sorry. You made me laugh. He's a. psychiatrist. And he said to me, "I find it fascinating. that you don't have PTSD.". And I said, "Is that good or bad?" He. said, "From a psychiatric point of.

view?" And I said, "Yeah." He goes, "Not good.". >> Mhm. >> I said, "I wasn't afraid of those. people, Steve. I was not afraid of them.". >> Yeah, it is interesting, man, the things. that we hold, what's going on inside of. us, you know? How it comes out, what. gets figured out, you know? >> You just never know. You never know. what's going to bother you. You never. know what's going to stick in your mind. and bother you and fester for years. It. happens. >> Yeah. The stories, man. And about just making a story, you know?

I mean, you seem like a kind of guy that. likes to make a story, you know? >> I like telling these stories. And people. say, "Ah, you're living a story though, I mean." Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, listen, I'm. an adrenaline junkie. I don't know what. I would do if I didn't have these. stories in my past. I'd be like, "Oh my. god, my first wife, she's like, I want. to move back to Ohio and I want you to. sell car insurance with my cousin Dean.". I said, "I would rather cut my throat. than move to Ohio and sell insurance. with your cousin Dean.". >> join the Aryan Brotherhood in prison. >> Seriously. Seriously. >> Wait, and you did. >> And I did. >> So, I take a look.

Insurance next time. >> Yeah, next life. >> Don, tell your son I said what's up that. you mentioned on the way in. Thank you, Max. Max, tell him I said what's up. And. is Kyriakos a Greek? >> Greek. >> Greek. I was thinking about that. Um, you have. the new book, you have the new podcast. Thank you so much for your time, brother. >> Thank you. Thanks for the invitation. It's great to meet [music] you. >> You too, man. It's a pleasure. Thank. you. >> Thanks. >> Now I'm just floating on the breeze and. I feel I'm falling [music] like these. leaves. I must be. cornerstone.

Oh, but when I [music] reach that. ground, I'll share this piece of mind I. found. I can feel it. in my [music] bones. But it's going to take.