Ex-Counterfeiter Arthur Williams Jr. | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #681

He was one of the most prolific. counterfeiters in America, printing over. $10 million in fake currency. He spent. 12 years in prison for his crimes, but. now he's out and he's telling his story. And what a story it is, man. Um, we're. going to hear about it all and we're. going to hear about where he's at today. We really got into it. Today's guest is. Mr. Art Williams. I know.

And I will find a song. [music]. I've been singing. >> Yeah, dude. My friends were texting me. the full moon about the full moon. yesterday. >> Yeah. It's a partial lunar today. >> Yeah. Well, they're like, "Go look at. the moon." You know? Yeah. >> And I feel like it's I wonder if like. the moon feels embarrassed because like. everybody's looking at it at the same. time. That's what I start to think, you. know, like if everybody was looking at. me at the same time, like I would just.

feel so embarrassed. I feel like. >> Yeah. Well, sometimes it feels like. that. >> Yeah. >> But I look at the moon like a mirror. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Reflection, right? Even last night. in the room that you got me. Hey, that. room is dope. I got the dopest city. view. >> Oh, nice. >> I woke up at like 2:00 in the morning. and the moon was just looking at me. Wow. >> Oh, that's a peeping tom, man. >> Yeah, it was peeping on me. The moon was. a peeping time list because the curtains. were open, right? And it was just. sitting right there looking down. I'm. like, whoa. I don't blame it, man. Um, Art Williams, dude, we met uh in Chicago.

>> at the Gibson's restaurant. >> Yeah, we met at at the Viagra Triangle. >> Yeah, dude. [laughter]. But but uh there we are. >> Yeah, there we are. >> But dude, yeah, thanks for thanks so. much for coming in. So, for just for our. listeners who don't know, so in a past. life, you you were a counterfeit. >> Yeah, printed money. >> Printed money. >> Not for the feds either. >> No. >> No. Yeah, >> for yourself. >> For myself. >> Yeah, that's what I like, bro. Hey, we. need more of that. >> Yeah, for sure. Now, right. >> Oh, dude. I think especially look if the. government's just going to print it for.

themselves. >> Yeah. Well, now they're going digital. They're going to they're going to print. it through the digital coin, which is. going to be even more trippy, >> right? And I think Yeah. And and we're. going to get into some of that, dude. I. want I want to talk about some of those. things. >> Yeah. No, I printed money, man. I I I I. when they the 1996 $100 bill came out, they said that it was impossible to. replicate. And I was about I don't know, I was probably like 24, 25. And uh and. so was a child. I said, "Man, I'm going. to replicate it. I think I could." And. and and my story goes back a little. further because I grew up in the south. side of Chicago, you know.

>> Yeah. Take me there. Like looking back, are you able to see any things that made. you think, "Okay, I'm going to head in. this direction kind of." Oh, yeah. Like. was you doing early crime or whatever? >> I was doing a lot of crimes. Yeah. Early, you know, when So when my dad. >> early bird gets the wallet. >> and that's true though. Well, we get the. coins cuz I'd hit the meters. Yeah. The. meters on the side of Hostess Street. >> So that that was like my first crime. when we when my dad left us. My mom was. she dealt with mental illness. She was. diagnosed bipolar. Um so she you know. she had to take lithium you know and if. she didn't take it you know well once a.

year she would go into the hospital. right and they'd have to get the levels. back up and they put us in foster home. right. So my youth grow so when my dad. took off. >> and [snorts] we ended up homeless and. then ended up in the projects on the. southside right by White Sox Park. Um, you know, it was uh the I remember cuz. we you know, you're on welf my mom was. on welfare. She wasn't working for us. It was I came home from school, it was. cold. I come into the the house and my. mom's in the kitchen smoking and um.

>> what she smoked them dur. She used to roll her own. Yeah. My mom. used to back buy big bags of tobacco and. she'd be there all day and. >> Midwestern. She's a hard worker. >> Oh yeah. No, my mind just roll. But but. she was there smoking and and she was. crying and she go and I asked why she. was crying. She said, "We have no food. in the house." So I open up the fridge. and it was empty, right? [snorts] I was. about 12 at that time. We had probably. been living there almost maybe like 9. months to a year. So I've already got a. taste of the streets, you know, and uh.

so I grabbed my brother, my little. brother. We ran outside and while while. I'm walking down Hos Street and I I was. right on 31st in Hos, that's where the. projects that I grew up in. So it's like. Southside, they call it the low end. >> Okay. Right. Anything like under 55th is. like the low end. These are just all. Chicago street terms. I'm telling you. right now, right? >> Yeah. And uh maybe I'll take you over. there one day. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a. cool sp. So anyway, yeah. So that was So. we're hitting the I'm hitting the. meters, walking down hall and I'm. hitting the meters, but as I'm an angry. kid, not thinking about, you know, like.

I don't know what to do, but as I'm. hitting them, I could hear the change. ringing and and so I I figured there was. money in there. >> So you're just walking down the street. hitting him with a stick or something? No, but my fist just you know how you. just snap, you know, hitting it every. because there's a meter like every 20. ft. >> So I'm just cracking it, you know, just. like as a little kid, man. You know, but. then I start hear the jingling jingle. jing jing jingle, you know, like it's. money, right? You bing like the little. thing goes off. >> and uh and so I start playing with it. So this is this is what God gave me. The. gift he gave me is figure things out.

>> Okay. >> Puzzles, >> money. >> Yeah. >> Meters, you know, >> right? Whatever's going on, you're going. to figure it art, whatever the. whatever it is, my brain just like it. wants to dissect it, right? Just. >> But early on, it was just the meters. I. wanted to get into the meter, right? So, so I went in the alley, I made I made. this little metal piece that allowed me. to to to twist the little pins. There. were two little pins on it. And if you. could get them to go straight up, you. could pop it out. And there was always. maybe like 10 $15 of quarters in it. So,

you'd hit like five or six and all a. sudden you got a hundred. And 100 back. then was something. >> Yeah. It's a lot of money. >> I still love 100. I like the hundred's. my number, man. You know what I'm. saying? Yeah. But so so we hit it. We. hit it for like me and my bro hit it for. like 87. We went to Tony Supermarket and. uh me and my me and my bro were just. just putting stuff. We're all excited, right? >> Oh yeah. >> And we get up there and the the big tiny. looks down. He's like, "You guys got. money? We're kids, man." Like and we had. a bag. It was in a bag like a little. jewels bag or something. We just said, "This we got money." And he looked. change. He goes, "Yeah, that's money,

right?" And so he started counting it. It was It was like 86 bucks. We get. home. Th this is what was awesome. When. we walked in the door, my mom was still, you know, kind of in her depressed mode. She hadn't really moved yet, but when. she seen the groceries, she lit up, ran, and hugged us. She's like, "Where'd you. get these?" She probably thought some. church gave it to us or something, you. know. Yeah. >> And I'm like, um, I'm like, "We got. them. How you know?" She goes, "How'd. you get?" I said, "The meters." She's. like, "Well, how'd you get out the. meters?" I said, "We broke into them.". She goes, "And then she goes, "Go up to. your room right now." So she she her her.

demeanor went from happy to pissed like. that, you know, like in heart like real. quick. So me and my brother go upstairs. She comes up after that and she's like. um she's like, "Look, I don't want you. stealing for money. God will provide the. way." I said, "God did provide the way. He showed me how to open it, right? Cuz. I I believe there's divineness in what I. do." Like whatever my mind is able to. do, there's there's there's there's a. creative there's something outside of me. that I could tap into that that gives me. a force. I call it force field, right? I.

got. >> Well, at that time, did you feel like. you were doing it for a good cause, too? >> Well, for my mom, for my brother, for my. sister. What are you going to do? >> Yeah, man. They got to eat, you know, like and that started it, right? Then. once once that happened, it didn't stop. I'd hit the meters whenever I needed it, >> you know? Then then I started hanging. out with the gangs. So, like in Chicago, the gang violence was real strong at. that point. It's like mid 80s, early. 90s, guns are hitting the street, right? It went from It went from uh uh like at. first it was like uh dance crews like.

break dancing. >> Yeah. >> And so the break dancers turned into the. gangs pretty much, right? So you had the. break dancing moments in Chicago and. probably New York and LA, probably. everywhere. And then when the break. dancing kind of faded out, all those. cats turned into Latin Kings or. Disciples or I mean GDs have always been. there, right? It was GD disciples. Okay. Yeah. They've always been before, you. know, and all these gangs have been. there forever. But the break dancing. when it broke out, that's when a lot of. numbers filled it, you know. >> What do you think caused that break. dancing to kind of dissipate over there?

>> I don't I don't I think cuz they started. fighting, right? So at first it was just. like, ah, right? You know, grab my nuts. and put it in your face, right? And then. they started beefing. And then when they. started beefing, you know, [snorts]. physical just always enhances even like. wars. >> Yeah. There's an escalation. >> There's always escalation with it, man. Right. So if it's a, you know, you step. on my toe, then I smack you in the face. and you punch me in mine and boom, boom, boom. Right. So. >> yeah, that's always a way to do it. >> Yeah. So anyway, but that's what I think. happened. I think I said, you know, there's just the beefs and and and then.

the guns. That was the thing that really. for me that sticks in my memory harsher. than anything cuz I've been shot and. I've had friends killed. One right right. there, you know, got shot in the head. >> with you. >> Yeah. We were all out there and we heard. one shot and poof, hit him in the head. and he dropped. Right. I got hit in the. side. >> And were you out there like with the. gang? Like cuz you were just out in the. streets. >> Yeah, we we all everyone had their. corner. Got it. We had 32nd in Luanica. >> The Italians, they had Armor Park, 33rd. and Shields. Latin Kings had uh 33rd in.

Morgan. The the the Spanish chancellors. had 29th in Wallace, right? Like. >> And who was your favorite gang looking. back? Like. >> I mean the one I was with, right? But I. was a disciple, man. Of course. Right. [laughter]. >> That's a good answer, bro. I ran the. streets real hard from breaking into. cars to garages to stealing cars. It. just kind it escalated. >> So you were into crime then? That was. your thing? >> Well, it was to survive, right? Like I I. didn't I didn't ever look at like crime. in the sense and even even when I got. older in the sense of like I I I I.

imagined that it would make me like a. rich drug lord, right? Like I never had. that in my mind that stealing a car is. going to get, you know, cause me to have. something great like. >> one of them have a dealership or. something. didn't have dealership. Exactly. Right. So, so I I always fought. against wanting to do it, right? Like, and then when the money came though, so. I ended up getting in trouble, stealing. a car. Uh, one of my mom's friends came. up to get me cuz they could sign you out. at the police station. [snorts] And, uh, on the on the way back, he was just.

telling me like, you know, what are you. doing, man? You're smart in this. You. know, I see how you are and you love. your mama and you you know what what's. going on. And he brought me into his. world. >> Who was saying this? >> Uh, an older gentleman. I I nicknamed. him Pete. Called Pete Da Vinci cuz, you. know, telling me crazy stories about Da. Vinci, wear a little hat, tying guy. >> Okay, got it. >> So, we're walking back. Me and Peter are. walking back and he's just, you know, telling me, he goes, "Hey, listen. I'm. going to take it. I'm going to show you. how to make some money and and be quiet. about it." Right? That was the thing. That was the difference about what I was. doing. It was loud. The gangs was loud. The guns, the stealing, the the breaking.

windows, right, to get in the cars, right? He he wanted to show me how to be. quiet and make money. And and so for me. with my dad leaving, he was kind of like. the first one, the first guy that like I. I felt like a not like a fathership, you. know, like like a little bit of a. fatherhood to, right? >> Oh yeah, dude. When you're young, if. somebody comes in your life and pays you. some attention or hey, this is another. thing. Hey, let me show you how to do. something. That's a huge thing. >> I just didn't think it was going to be. print money, right? Like I didn't know. >> Oh, dude. I mean, I hate to say Yeah. I.

hate to say you got lucky cuz some guys. are like, "Let me teach you how to play. tennis, you know, let me teach you how. to touch yourself or whatever." But you. got lucky, bro. >> I did. I did. I I really did. And my. whole life has been kind of like that, too. >> I get in places that people just don't. get into. >> 100%. >> I really do, man. It's like the Vinci. hanging with the kings. I don't know how. it happens, man. Just I just Okay, here. I am. Like portal in, you know, >> right? And like here we are in the next. chapter of this fairy tale.

>> I love it. I love it. That's what makes. life alive though, right? >> Oh, I agree. Yeah. I think it's so. interesting that he's teaching you how. to how to do something quiet. >> Quiet. That's what it was all about, right? And and and and as a. counterfeitter, you learn to become a. ghost. I mean, even now, I'm still a. ghost, you know? I still live like that. just because it's how I was trained, you. know. [snorts] And um but yeah, so he he. he takes me to his shop. He had a shop. over by Armor Park and I had one of them. old elevators that went down into the. basement and stuff. And he had his. printer over here. He had his light.

burner over here. He had his uh plate. maker over here where he did his ink, where he held his paper. I mean, it was. just it was fascinating as a kid. I'm. like 15, 16, man. You know, like Karen. and I am with an old gangster, you know. And as a kid in that neighborhood. [snorts] because my my neighborhood was. was where Mayor Daly was from, right? Bridgeport they call it. >> Where Mayor Daly was from. >> Yeah. Mayor Daly, the old Daily Richard. Daily and all the dailies. That's that. neighborhood, you know. >> Got it. And so you have the Irish on. 37th, you have the Italians on 31st, you. got the Chinatown over on 22nd, you got.

Pilson which is over off 18th and and. then and then where I lived was like the. hodgepodge of everyone but poor, >> right? We were all just poor, right? But. there was a little Puerto Rican, a. little Thai and a little little mut, you. know, like everything, right? So for a. kid in the projects to make it to the. Italian side was huge. >> That was like that was like a hand up, man. >> Yeah. You know, like that's what. everybody wanted. You know, you didn't. want to be a car thief, right? >> You know, you didn't want to you wanted. to be with them because you know what. they did. >> Yeah. They at least were a little They.

were organized. >> They were organized, man. And so for for. me to be in the projects and be pulled. out of it, right? >> That was like winning a lottery, man. You know, it's like winning the lottery. So, you know, he took me in, he started. showing me, you know, I would help carry. carry. He was old. So, he needed someone. anyway cuz the paper's heavy, ink cans, the, you know, have to move the. equipment around. You got to keep. everything clean, right? It's con and. that ink is man. I've had it on my. hand and then went and took a piss and. man, I'm burning my piece, you know. Really? >> Oh, that was crazy. Yeah. My p It was. like green for like a week and it wasn't. gorrhea. >> But it's ink. Yeah. It was nuts, man.

>> But it's getting darker. You know what. I'm saying? Win [laughter] some, lose. some, huh? >> I did, man. It was, you know, Yeah. So, >> what what was some of the machinery that. Pete was using to make uh to. counterfeit? >> So, this at that time it was still the. little littlefaced hund, right? Had. there was a time when the hundred had a. tiny face on it, right? Okay, >> we're going way back 1985. So those were. the ones he made and they were and they. were a lot easier because there was no. watermark. There was no shifting ink. There was you just just a visual. >> Okay. >> And so he was making those and he was.

using the old offset technology. So it. was he had AB Dick He had AB Dick uh. twocolor, right? >> What is that? AB dick two color. It's a. paint. >> No, it's a it's a press. It's a printing. press. It's a it's Yeah, I got to send. you a picture. They're they're awesome, man. They're like. >> We We'll bring one up right here. AB. >> Yeah. Look at like a twocolor AB dick. Yeah. There you go. Right. And so. >> so he that's what he used. >> Wow. And that looks kind of advanced for. the times, huh? >> Oh no. Well, I mean it was an offset. press. Ben Franklin invented the press.

>> Like look at Ben Franklin's press. His. first one. >> Yeah. Ben Franklin's first press. He's. the one who invented it. Ben Franklin. invented all kinds of things. So there. was different machines. You asked about. the machines. So you had a machine to. take a photo, right? You would take put. the bill up there. you take a photo of. it, right? And then take it down. Then. there was another machine. It was uh it. made the the negatives, right? So you. would go and you'd make the negatives. with with the bill. And we would always. do three bills, right? Cuz these offsets. um they they would they were best with.

like 8 and 1 half by 11 paper. >> and you would take the photos of the. bill of a real bill. >> Of a real bill. Okay. Got it. >> Yeah. And then we would take it and we. put it into a negative form and you know. put through the machine that makes. negative. And then we that's when you do. your serial numbers. We take this red. tape and we we'd knock out the serial. numbers and because that was one of the. hardest things to change, right? Cuz the. the numbers is what get people caught. back in the old days, right? So you you. you you'd mark out the numbers and then. you'd make the plate, you'd burn you'd. put the negative in the machine, it burn.

the plate, then you put the plate onto. the press and then you make the ink and. then then you run your paper, right? Like it's fascinating. I love it. I I I. really do. I I love it. Well, it's a. piece of art. >> Yeah. And I still got a press, you know, and I sit there and I lay next to it and. reminisce. Oh yeah. [laughter]. >> But nevertheless, yeah, I'll show it to. you one day. But so yeah, so so that. that's that process. But with me, what. happened? >> And just to interrupt you real quick, how long did that process take? >> Well, for him, he could do it quick. So. I had to learn because he never let me. do some of the things. Like he never let. me like uh take the photos and he didn't.

let me, you know, burn the plates. I. would be there. I would move stuff for. him or be cleaning, but there was a lot. of things I didn't get to do. But. because I got to see what he used, I I. replicated that part first. So when the. bill came out, I went back and started. thinking about all the things that he. was doing. >> You mean when the 1996 one $100 bill. came out? >> When that came out, >> because that bill came out and they said. that it was unable to be duplicated. Is. that right? >> Duplicate. Yeah. They said that all the. security features there was a watermark, a strip, uh fluorescents on it, there.

were uh shifting ink, there was micro. printing. You got the moure the So. there's a morray which if you try to. scan it in a present scanner, the lines. around his head will get real wavy, right? There's all kinds of neat things. in there. >> Oh, really? So if you try to scan that. in like a just a scanner to like scan it. over to just even send a picture to. somebody, the lines will get wavy in his. head. >> The lines get wavy in his head. It's. called a morray, right? Um, interesting. >> Yeah. No, there's a lot of cool things. on it. >> It says here six features. Uh, yeah.

Watermark, a second faint image of. Benjamin Franklin to the right of the. portrait. Visible when held to light. >> Uh, embedded security thread. A vertical. strip embedded in the paper. Visible. when held to light. It reads USA 100. I. remember when that came out, bro. UV. reactive thread under ultraviolet light. The security thread glows red. So that's. when you take the money to the strip. club and you throw it at the girl and it. the line will glow yellow, red or green, right? Whatever denomination it is. You. want it to grow I would want it to glow.

red, right? Red was the 100 color. >> It was Oh, I wanted to glow What was. green ones? >> Oh, well, [laughter]. no, I think that's 20s, I think. >> Okay, I'll do 20s. >> You can do 20s. >> Help the ladies out. >> Yeah. >> Ultraviolet light. They the security. thread glows red. Uh color shifting ink. The 100 in the lower right front corner. shifts from green to black as you tilt. it. >> And now then now it's purple to gold. >> Got it. >> The new one. Micro printing. >> Micro printing. Tiny USA 100 printing. included on Franklin's lapel and in the. lower left numeral area. And then fine.

line concentric line printing. Intricate. lines around the portrait and on the. reverse that ordinary copier struggle to. reproduce accurately. >> Exactly. The ordinary copers. It makes. it the like wavy. >> Got it. >> But listen to this one. Read that next. line. The 1996 note does not have the. blue 3D security ribbon or the. colorchanging bell in the ink. Well, those arrived on the redesigned $100. note introduced later. >> in 2015. You know why that bill was. made? >> Cuz of me. >> I'm sitting next to them. >> Yeah. >> It's called visual physics, right? You.

know what's so funny? They let the bill. out right when I got out of prison. >> Oh. >> Oh, I thought they were trying to rub it. in my face a little bit. Did. >> you do it on purpose? >> Oh, yeah. They had to have cuz it it was. supposed to come out in 13. >> or no, it was supposed to come out like. 11 or somewhere around there. I got out. in 13, 2013. >> But I'm watching in the paper that I'm. reading in the paper and Matt, you know, this new bill coming out, right? And and. uh then when I got out and I seen that. purple line, I just went nuts. I'm like, well, so what happened is they wrote a. book about me called The Art of Making. Money. >> Mhm.

>> Like way back. It was like 2005. And so, and then they put me in Rolling Stone. magazine, call me the best. counterfeitter ever. >> Really? >> Yeah. It was awesome, right? I mean, I. mean, I went to prison for seven years, so it wasn't too awesome, but it was. still cool that I it got recorded, you. know, and uh but then everyone wanted to. be like me. >> So, you started having guys in. California reading the book. Now, granted, I only there was 12 steps to. the whole thing. I only gave them like. five, right? And so, I I for one, I. would never give my recipe to anybody. >> How to counterfeit?

>> Yeah. But when I was doing the book, I. was like, you know, if I give these. five, even if they tried to do it, it. wouldn't come out like mine, right? cuz. I don't want a bunch of people making. money like me and then I'm getting in. trouble, right? So, I just left a lot of. parts out, but a lot of people tried and. started creating their own money. >> Did anybody ever reach out to you and. say, "Hey, do you want to get back in. the game?". >> Oh, they do now on my Facebook and. Instagram, man. You know, like I get a. little weirded out, you know, cuz I get. that happens all the time. All the time. >> Have you ever just even met up with. somebody just to see what it was like? Like, what's this person even talking.

about? >> Nah, nah, nah. If if somebody comes at. me like that now, like I'm an artist. I. got a great life, man. You know what I'm. saying? Like, and even back then, man, I'd probably trunk them, right, just for. coming to me without knowing me, right? Yeah. So, like, yeah. Anyway, yeah, my. my neighborhood, we trunk. They would. trunk people, not me. >> They put them in a trunk. >> Yeah. Put them in a trunk. >> Um, but anyway, okay. So, take me back. to All right. You're working with Pete. Are you able to learn Pete's method or. or or what happens there? >> So, so when the time I was with him, like I said, mostly I was just moving. things for him, learn how to mix inks.

He didn't he didn't ever let me do any. of the real heavy stuff like the the. brain work. Right. >> Okay. Got it. >> So, I got to watch his what he did. You. know, that's how I learned what he you. know, I'd watch him do the plates. I'd. watch him do the the uh the photography. I'd watch him, you know, mix his inks, right? How he'd weigh it, right? He'd. put the ink on the little scale like. drugs, right? >> Oh, so you had to have a certain amount. of ink on the bill. >> Yeah. Yeah. He had Yeah. Everything. Even the bill had to weigh a gram, right? Because drug dealers like to. weigh money. But nevertheless, so but. then Pete. >> God, I want a gram. Go on. >> Yeah. So anyway, for like, you know, we.

did I I stayed around for for about 9. months to a year and then he ended up. disappearing. He was gone. Never came. into the diner no more. Wasn't at the. shop, you know. And in my neighborhood. that happened to people, right? >> Do you know what happened to him? >> No. No, I don't. I don't. I just He just. never came back, you know. >> If you had to guess what happened to. him, what do you think happened to him? >> I hope he got away. Like that's what I. think. >> Oh, you think somebody might have been. on to him a bit? >> Oh, well that's in that in that world. back then especially, man. Like people. in my neighborhood disappeared. that. that really happened. >> But did you see Pete being paranoid.

about stuff? Like did he also have some. like things that he had done? Like were. there things he set up at his place or. his house to like. >> So So the one thing about counterfeits. that that that that he did not so not. only did he did I get to see what he. did, but we talked a lot, right? I mean. that was the coolest thing I I think. about the whole experience is just. getting getting to hear his thoughts on. different things which expanded mine, right? Which made me grow, right? you. know, so it was more than just learning. how to print money, but it was actually. learning how to use my mind cuz up until. that point, I had it, you know, and and.

so when when he when he did disappear, like it it was hard on me, man. You. know, I'd go over there, I'd be looking. in the window, seeing if he's around, you know, and. >> you never heard from him again? >> No. No. And so the thing about a. counterfeit is the biggest thing is they. teach you how to be quiet. They teach. you how to disappear. They teach you how. to not exist. They teach you how to, you. know, that's the thing that was so. awesome when I later down the road. became a master at it is I could I could. go anywhere. I could go to Florida. I.

could go to New York. I could go to LA. I could go to any country and quietly go. somewhere and not know anybody and talk. to anybody and produce money. M. >> it was the most it was the most. liberating feeling you can have to have. that ability. >> to walk in with with blank paper and. then turn it into to suitcase cash. But. but you learn how to do it quietly. And. so for him when he disappeared in my. mind I'm thinking, you know, he had to. go, right? The the heat's on him, right?

And and and boom, he's gone, right? I I. didn't want to think he was dead, even. though like that's a high that's a. possibility, too. Because, you know, here's the thing. Like, whenever you're. dealing with large amounts of money, every It's not like the movies, man. You. get over 50,000, you get over 100,000, your life's in danger. >> Yeah. >> Okay. It It don't need to be 500,000. It. don't need to be a million. I've seen. people get killed for 5,000. So, so in. that world, you're literally printing. like I So, you asked if people have. tried to get me to do money while I'm.

free. No, because I don't even entertain. it. >> Right. >> Right. But on the streets, yeah, there. were times where there where there were. different, you know, crews that would. hear about me and then. >> they literally look at you like a. printing press, >> right? This guy's ATM. >> Yeah. Yeah. This is an ATM, man. So, so. that was the the thing that I had to. watch for when back on the date, you. know, and that's why you have to be a. ghost. That's that's why you have to be. a ghost because. >> you can't be predictable. You can't I. never even now nobody knows where I.

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or dial poundlaw pound529. This is a paid advertisement. Um so, so just to do a timeline recap. So, um you you grow up in this. neighborhood in Chicago. It's a hectic. environment. You get into stuff on the. streets. So you guys are out there kind. of banging, stealing this, stealing. that. Uh kind of petty crime stuff, maybe a little bit aggressive. You meet. Pete, you kind of go under his wing as. this sort of like. >> not exactly an apprentice, but you're. there with him all the time. >> His helper.

>> Yeah. As his helper. You're watching, you're seeing what he's doing. And also, he's kind of having conversations with. you that are helping you kind of elevate. and expand. Just how you even think. about the world mentally. >> Okay. And now Pete disappears and you're. back uh out on the streets and you guys. start getting into some heavier stuff. >> Pete. Yeah. like you know when he when. he left I went back actually when when. that whole situation he took off I went. back to the streets. I started getting. into the gangs and I started getting. into you know just some real heavy. you know and we started robbing drug. dealers. We dress up like cops. We had.

the cop cars you know really like I said. the drug dealing was a real big thing. So I I didn't like to sell drugs. Like I. had a lot of friends that did but I. didn't like to see what it did to. people. You know, that's why I like the. the counterfeiting, right? Because it. was like I didn't feel like I was really. hurting anyone, you know? I'm not. stealing. I don't like to steal and and. the drug part, like I I seen what it. did, but but we would so we would start. robbing him, right? And and one of my. dudes, he um like But my son, so my my. first son, his mom's a cop, right? So. like and and Yeah. Right. That that's a.

whole another lane. Well, we won't go. down that one. But it it it it it. allowed, you know, a lot of my guys, we. had friends that were cops, so we could. get uniforms, we could get badges, you. know. I always loved a cop car. >> And I had a nice one, right? I always. had a real nice one. Like, and I loved. it cuz I could move through. See, I I'd. wear glasses and, you know, make my hair. to the side and I look like a cop, you. know? But but we started we, you know, we'd start robbing the drug dealers. Everyone's like out in the suburbs and. what basically what would happen these. guys from the suburbs would come in and.

they'd like to hang out at the clubs. downtown and they want to flash their. money to the girls. We'd have girls that. were working for us. So we'd have girls. in those clubs and they' be like, "Hey, this guy he's doing this, this, and. that." And like, "Okay, cool." and and. she wouldn't sleep with them, but she'd. go home with them, become friends, hang. out with them, finesse them, and then. we'd come and right and we' we'd be like. we'd have vests on, guns, like like. legit like dressed like cops like dude. >> But yeah. No, and we did that and then. it got dangerous. It did start getting.

dangerous cuz we started getting stupid. like you know, at first it was and. that's how. >> you throw like a police ball or whatever. like I mean how stupid do you guys get? >> Well, that not not stupid like that. Were you playing softball against the. fire department or something? Like what. were you guys doing? >> Yeah. No, no, no. >> But we were like robbing more. dangerous elements. >> Okay, got it. So, it escalated. >> It escalated like all crime, right? Like. all crime escalates. You go from, oh, we're going to hit these white suburban. kids from out there that think they're. cool and now we get our balls so big.

We're like, oh, we're going to hit that. cat on 18th Street that got 10 guns. around him. >> Oh, yeah. >> Right. So, you go from like, you know, it just escalated. It's escalation. ladder. >> and then I got shot I got shot in my. side and and then and and there was a. lot of things that happened that caused. me to go to my next phase. Okay, got it. >> But we did for for that little brief, you know, there was I guess. >> for about 3 years maybe. I was just. running hard on the street, you know. >> And who shot you? >> Uh Latin King. Latin King shot me. Tried.

to kill me. Yeah. Yeah. And um. >> Did he spare your life? >> No. Hell no. Yeah, he tried to kill me. Yeah. No, they I was walking home from a. a party like 2:00 in the morning. I'm. walking through a basketball court and I. hear two guys behind me. I look, they. got they got handkerchiefs on and. [clears throat] um and I thought it was. my dudes from the party. And so I'm. like, "Hey man, take the handkerchiefs. off, man. You know, you're getting me. nervous." And they're like, "Getting you. nervous?" And boom, they pulled out the. pistols and just started just boom boom. boom boom boom. I turned around, I took. off running and put my head between my.

legs. I could feel the bullets just see, right? And uh and then I got hit and I. fell to the ground right as I was almost. around the corner from the project, you. know. >> Mh. >> I got hit and I stayed on I when I hit. the ground I was just going to stay on. the ground and figured they thought they. killed me and they take off and but when. I hit the ground I looked back they were. running up on me. They were going to try. to dome shot me. >> Yeah. you know, and some something real. spiritual happened at that moment. Like. I felt something grabbed me from.

underneath my my armpits, you know, and. just kind of like lift me off the ground. and and I ran like five blocks to 31st. and hosted. I was on 32nd. >> Was you leaking, too? >> I was leaking. Yeah. Yeah. >> You plug it up? Did you plug up the. wound with like a. >> There was a Chicago Tribune guy that was. helping me. He might have. >> put some newspaper in it or something. I. had put a newspaper on me. Well, I. didn't even know I I didn't even like. feel it. It was weird because when I got. to 31st and I sat down on the bus stop. and I'm like feeling myself, you know,

you're all like shaking and stuff. And. then uh and [clears throat] then I stood. back up and I could feel like something. on my when I grabbed it was just all red. and just blood. And I I told this the. the Chicago Sun Time guy said, "Hey man, I've been hit, man. Call ambulance.". >> Damn. >> Yeah. So then. >> he was delivering papers. >> Yeah. Delivering papers. Yeah. Damn. It. was like 3:00 in the morning. But after. that, that's when I went to Texas. You. know, I was like, my mom was like, "Man, you got to go. You know, I've already. had at that point like six of my friends. murdered, you know. I'm only like 18, 19. years old, you know.".

>> So was getting hot down there, huh? >> Well, well, the southside was dangerous. back then, man. Like I said, guns hit. the street, man. Seemed like everyone. had one. They were called Larsson's. L A. R S. I mean, it's just. >> with a type of gun. >> Yeah. Like right around 90, I'd say like. 92, 93, man. Everyone had these things. It was a. 22, a 25, and a 380. They were Yeah, they they were like that. Little The. little guns. They were real tiny like. that. 22. Yeah, that's what we had. Yeah, that's it. Those things flooded.

flooded the the streets, man. >> A little grocery getter, you think? >> Yeah, they were little tiny, man. But. 22, 25, 380. And you get them for 50. bucks. And it's almost like they dumped. them on the street. And then that's and. it just so it went from you know. fighting and bats and you know like the. old school type to. >> Yeah. real Double dragon. >> Double dragon Yeah. To like. everyone having these little peashooters. that killed. >> That's crazy. >> Mhm. >> I wouldn't be surprised. >> But I lost six of my friends during that. time and uh and so I went to Texas. My. mom said, "Let's get out of here." So I.

end up going down to Texas. And. >> And when you get down to Texas, is that. where uh your counterfeiting journey. kind of continues? >> Yeah. Yeah. So when I went down there, of course, I'm trying to get away from. the gang violence and uh but I'm still. me, you know, I'm still a criminal, right? And [clears throat] so I go down. there, I start getting with the in in. with with the wrong crowd. I get into a. little trouble. Um I go to I go to. prison for like two years and uh in a. Texas prison. Those Texas prisons were. rough, too, man. Wow, was it crazy. I.

thought I was in hell. But uh when I got. out, my girl Natalie, she picked me up. and she took me to a hotel. We did the. whole, you know, the whole prison. release, freedom party, right? >> Oh, yeah. Sex or whatever. >> Sex. Yeah. Anyway, and um and then we we. went to the the first place I wanted to. go was to the bookstore cuz I read a. lot. I've read thousands of books, right? And so I wanted the Bruce Lee. book. And so she wanted to get me the. Bruce Lee book. So we go to the. bookstore and she buy we we're buying. the book and she pays with a hundred the. new hundred. I hadn't seen it yet,

>> right? Cuz I was in prison. and and and. I'm watching. She pays and the and and. the lady just pulls out a pen and marks. it and then puts it in the drawer. and I'm looking I'm like, man, already. I'm thinking like she didn't even look. at the hundred, >> right? She just used the marker. >> Yeah. And I had Yeah. I just used the. marker and that was and trusted it. fully. I was and I'm thinking in my mind. I'm like, man, if somebody figured this. part out, man, you could have a run, right? And that's where it started. Right. >> I just got to beat the marker. >> Just got to beat the marker, right? That's the only thing on my mind. I just.

got to beat that because nobody's. looking at it. And and that's where the. the quest began, you know, and I'm not. even out of prison like a couple days. and here I am already thinking about the. next crime. That's that's what's so like. the criminal mind could be so like. obsessive. >> Mhm. >> And and addictive, you know, like it. really can be. I mean, >> it's kind of an addiction. >> Oh, for sure. Right. Especially printing. money. >> Like the smell of ink even now gets me. aroused, you know? Anyway, I mean I.

might be use a different word, but it it. makes me like get goosebumps, you know? Yeah. >> Yeah. The the smell of like old candy. ink when you open it. >> So anyway, so so we start we we start. the journey. I'm and and just and I. again here's one of those moments where. I just in the you know I got got a. little bit blessed or lucky or star fell. on my head or whatever is is Natalie was. was one of the first that was in tech, right? right? When the computers were. coming out, the internet was only in. like the the the libraries and uh the. universities, right? So, I would use the.

the the internet at that time. I'd go. into the library to to look up uh how. they made money. I could go on to the. Treasury site and they had like. educational videos on how they put the. money through each step. It was. fascinating. Yeah. >> You're lying. >> No, it was Yeah, you could still go. I. bet you could still probably look up how. how they how the Treasury makes money. and they'll have videos. But we're This. is early. The videos were slow, but you. could see it. Right. >> Right. >> And that's when I thought about my about. Pete, right? About the offset press, right? And then, like I said, I I got a.

little lucky because Natalie was a. computer genius at the time, right? She. was working for for a tech company to. that, you know, they were callin. This. is before, you know, other countries. took all the, you know, the call-in. jobs, right? >> And um and so I what I did is I combined. the old technology and then the new. technology together. So, I created a. hybrid, right? >> Did you have to have a conversation with. her like, "Hey, babe, this is what I'm. going to do." Or, >> uh, it it slowly led there, right? Like, first, I'm just trying to just figure it.

out in my head how this could be done. >> Yeah. Like, how do you like ease her. into it? Like, just like you're sitting. on the couch being like, "Wish wish we. wish we had a couple hundreds.". >> Well, no, I I didn't ease her into I. mean, a little bit of an easement, but. she was ready to go, too. like she was. fascinated how I was thinking, right? Because I'm telling her about when I was. young and when I got to learn how to use. the old printing presses and then she's. telling me about how she's like a. technician for all the new stuff. And. >> that's a good point. She's already. smashing criminals. So, it's like what. are we even talking about? >> Yeah. No, she she Yeah. So, anyway, she.

me and her having a we we start to come. and form this thing. >> The first thing we had to do is figure. out the paper, >> right? You can't you know, I know how I. could get the press. I'm looking up, you. know, where to get presses. were calling. places. So, we we could almost get. everything we need from the ink to the. printers. The printers were new, so they. didn't have none of the Secret Service. uh uh software in them, right? The. Photoshop was new. All the stuff was. new. So, you that's why credit card scam. shot through the roof. That's why checks. shot through the roof. People were doing.

corporate checks because all this. equipment that was coming out, there was. no safeguards on it. >> Okay. >> Oh, it was awesome. >> It wasn't tested. They hadn't really. thought that people were going to use. this for this yet. Yeah. Well, yeah, we. were using the magnet. They had magnetic. printers. You could print the magnetic. checks like that was like 9697. Probably. looked that up. I bet you fraud went. through the roof, right? Because you. were able to use these machines, you. know, and we used them. Well, we, you. know, she she started looking in how to. uh one of the first things we did was. change the uh the Photoshop program.

where it wouldn't like [snorts] if you. scanned the hundred, it had something in. there where it would um. >> in 1996, financial institutions faced a. dramatic surge in check and credit card. fraud. >> Yeah, right. Yeah, that that's what. happened, man. Driven primarily by. >> I was part of it. I raised my hand. Yeah, I was a part of that But. >> dri driven primarily by the transition. into the early digital era and the rapid. adoption of desktop publishing. technology. >> Yeah, there you go. >> Yeah. I just wanted to get that out. there. Uh but you were talking about the. paper. >> Yeah. So the paper was the first thing. we had to figure out. We could figure.

out all the other things, the printing, the technology, this, but if you don't. get the paper right, it it it's it's. worthless, right? >> Because you had to beat the pen, right? That was the first test that led us. there, right? Was the pen. >> and the paper is what beats the pen. >> Yeah. Well, it's the pH in the paper, right? the the the paper is like a it's. [snorts] a neutral, right? It's there's. no acid. So So paper goes from like. acidic levels. And so the money paper is. like almost like at zero, right? It's. really hard to get it at that. I suppose.

I don't make paper, but as I learned how. to do this, I learned that paper has. these different levels on it. >> And so the pen reacts with that. >> with the acidic level. >> If it's not neutral, then what happens? >> It turns black like a dark brown. >> Okay. Got it. [clears throat] So that's. like you see at the bank or some like. some like. >> when you go to the store you get and. stuff they do that sometimes. >> they do do the pen and if it's real. it'll turn like a light yellow right. it's like a light yellow beautiful color. love that color but so here it is we're. trying to figure out this paper and. we're ordering. >> paper from everywhere but like back in. the day in the yellow pages again the.

internet's only in the libraries and the. universities so you still had yellow. pages back then so here we are going to. this paper company this paper company. we're ordering getting samples she's. marketing it marketing We're going on. and on with this. Finally, I'm losing. I'm thinking we're not going to be able. to pull it off. And so, I'm getting a. little upset with her. I'm arguing with. her that we're not doing something. right. So, she starts screaming back at. me and she's she's waving the yellow. pages at me. You running. me ragged like I was really running the. girl hard too, right? And she slammed it.

down and and she goes, "Nothing works.". And she marked the yellow pages and she. just she stopped. She goes she goes, "I. I can't believe this can't be." And I'm. like, "Huh? What's going on?" cuz I. still don't know. And she hits it again. and again. She goes, she looks up. She. goes, "This whole time we've been. looking for the paper and this is it. Art, come here." And I go over there and. what the It marked. I got nervous. when I seen it go yellow. >> I got so nervous because I didn't have. to do nothing to it. Bro, up until this.

point, >> I even started trying to put acid on the. paper. I almost burned the house down. like a real I put acid in. aluminum. Don't ever do that. Yeah. Right. Yeah, >> don't do it. Go right through. But I was. trying to do all kinds of dumb things, right? >> So, you were trying all different. papers. I mean, >> all different papers. And I hear the. whole time it's the freaking yellow. pages that is like one of the most. widely used paper in the whole world. >> Like what types of different. >> cotton, linens, um different poundage 20. cuz the p uh paper's weight, right? Like.

you got you got 20 lb 30 like like. school paper would probably be like a 26. lb, 32 lb, right? You're printing papers. like 32. >> Yeah. >> Uh what I needed was 18, right? So it. was real thin, right? >> And [snorts] and and this is what. happened. This is what made this so. amazing. So here I was looking to for. the paper that I could mark, you know, mark, right? But now this gave me it it. solved a bunch of things because I.

needed to solve the watermark and I. needed to solve the strip, right? And. then the strip is fluorescent. So now I. got to figure out how to make the strip. fluorescent, but I got to put all these. things in the paper. With the yellow. pages, because it was so thin, it. allowed me to press two of them. together. It was awesome, right? I'd. print three on each side, three fronts, three backs. I'd have my strips of my. watermarks. I'd have a light table, and. I would have all the stuff, just every. piece laid out, and I would just lay it. was all handone. That's the one thing. about my money, right? So, like people.

ask how much I've done and I've I. printed and made a lot, but every single. piece was handone. >> Wow. >> Every piece. Every every one I put that. watermark in. Every one I laid that. strip. Every one of them. She'd be. standing right next to me. You know, >> it's a little newborn. >> Oh, yeah. A little baby, man. It's a. piece of art. >> It really was. And then then then you. press them. But but when we found, you. know, when she did that, now we're. looking for the paper. She she would go. to uh RR Donnelly out there in the. suburbs of Chicago, say that she was a.

teacher and she was doing a school. project with the kid. Could I get get. some paper? And they'd give us a whole. roll of it for free. >> Wow. >> The whole row like enough to do like a. million dollars, right? It was it was it. and and for of the phone book paper. >> of the phone book paper. We get it on a. butt roll, they call it, right? >> So after they're done printing the the. phone books, they would have these butt. rolls that would have like that much. left on it or something, man. and they. would just and so she'd come out there. man with free paper like look at me man. we load that up and [snorts] um and. then we would cut it and then we we prep.

it. We had to do a lot to it because so. when we started to to try to run it. through the the the inkjets. >> it couldn't match the the colors, right? So at first I wanted to just run it off. the inkjet, right? The printer. >> the printers, you know, the normal. printers. >> But you you could get like the serial. numbers really good, you could get the. seals really good. You could get certain. maybe the backs sometimes the right ones. in the early days you could get good but. the actual color of money you could. never match ever. I don't I don't give a.

how good you were. I mean again. again here we go now we got the paper. now it's time to do the files. Right. >> But you think you'd be able to figure. out the color right? I mean a color. >> with a computer you don't control it. The it's the computer that uses the. panone. So it's a panone color. >> I see. >> Right. So so it wasn't really exactly up. to you. I mean, if you're printing, if. you're using if you're using an inkjet, it's going to it's only going to have so. many variations. >> You can adjust it, you know, and so like. with with money, right, you're trying to. create something that is the most.

powerful tool in the world. >> Yeah. >> Right. And and and and money has a feel. It has a look. It has like a a greenish. uh cream color to it, right? Like and. and and this and even though it looks. very simple, it's still still very. powerful, right? That that bill is. And. so if you're printing like what what the. way that I did it is I did every layer. like they did when I went to the to to. to the their website and I watched how. they did it. What the first thing I. learned was they did every single image. by itself, right? That's what made my.

money so good. That's what separated me. from all the other counterfeits before. me and most definitely all of them. behind me. I like to do one thing at a. time. If you try to do everything at one. time, which a lot of the counterfeits. did, you're always going to get one or. two or three of of the the the assets. off, right? Because because the the the. face and the and the weave around it, which is micro printing, or the seals or. the numbers, there's so many different. things that you got to print. And if you. try to print them all at once, it's.

going to be impossible to to match all. of them. And if you only get one or two. off, you could tell. You could tell. right away, right? [clears throat]. Every one of them has to be perfect if. you want to really fool the world with. the money, right? >> So, how would you go about doing one and. then doing the next one like with a. printer? Were you still using the. printer or you you put that kosh on. that? >> Well, no. That's when it advanced to to. bringing back Pete's technology with the. offset because it allowed me to mix my. own ink. >> Got it. >> Right. So, I needed what I needed to. figure out was how to color this paper.

Right. And that was one of the hardest. things. It's so so so like trippy when I. think back on it because on the scale. the amount of paint that I used for a. run was like an eye drop, right? To get. that light light light green creamy look. was one of the hardest colors to match. >> I mean a run means one bill or how many. bills? >> It's just one run through, right? Like. so so when I see what you're saying and. how many times you have to run through. to get a bill correct? >> So for the registr So so I'm going to. give you some printing uh knowledge,

right? So, so what made my bills what. what allowed me to be able to run keep. running it through is the registration. Like on a printer, you got that little. thing that moves to the side, right, for. the paper. Like if you change the paper. size, okay, >> right? If you have 8 and 1 half by 11, there's that little thing, >> that little gauge. It's like, okay, you. pull you move that to the side of it to. kind of keep it right there. >> That's called registration, right? Keeps. the paper straight where it goes into. the computer. Perfect. Same thing on an. offset press. You have a registration. little bit harder to work with on that.

though, right? You got to be really. lined up because that paper's flying. through that thing. Okay. >> Right. Whereas the printer's like, "Right." Right. >> Offset presses. Right. It's just. shooting it out really fast. >> So that registration, but I I was able. to get the registration. pretty much perfect every time, but you. know, just being patient with it, right? Not not trying to force it. And so the. first thing I would do is run the paper. through the offset press. So this is. when I combine the two. I seen that the.

inkjets couldn't print the background. It was impossible. [snorts] And so I. said, "Okay, let me let me get a. printing press and let me go do the old. way." You know, >> one a piece. >> Yeah. One a pet. And then we'll use. Natalie's way with the serial numbers. and the seals. Right. It worked really. good for the serial numbers because I. could change every single one of them. Right. And the seals, it matched really. close, right? But with the with the. printing press, I wanted the color and. the and the weave and the face. I wanted. that face to be perfect. Yeah. >> Because, you know, if you try to scan.

the bill, it would create this little. wavy thing around the head and it just. looked nasty, right? That was one of the. security features. It's called a marray. and they didn't even list it up there. But that's one of them. >> But with the printing press, I get to. shoot my own. I get to take a picture of. it, right? And so when I went back to. that, that's when the bills went like. from here to here, right? Because now. I'm really making it like the feds are. making it just at a very small, you. know, small scale, right? >> Yeah. >> And the first thing I would do is I. would I we would cut the paper and we'd. have to put it on a carrier paper which.

was a thicker paper cuz that 18 lb was. so skinny. >> that it would jam the the big press. >> Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. If you're. putting like Yeah. If you're putting. foam book paper through a printer, it's. not going to make it. >> It would just just tear it up. So, we'd. have to put that on a piece of paper. thicker and then tape the sides. Funny. story. I had a whole a senior citizen uh. living place putting paper on paper for. me. Like 50 boxes, man. Really? >> Yeah. We were doing Yeah. Well, I we. were about to do a big run. >> And so I asked my boy, the Greek I said,

"Man, I got to I got to get all this. [clears throat] paper put on, man." He's. like, "How many buy like 50 boxes?" He's. like, "Dude, that's great." I said, "What?" And he was uh remodeling a. senior citizen home. And he's like, "Well, guess what, dog?" He goes, "The. senior citizen home that I'm doing some. work on, they play in the game room all. the time. maybe I'll ask them. He goes, "There ain't no money on it." I'm like, "No, no, there ain't no money on it. I. just need one piece of paper placed on. another and taped the two sides." So, we. asked the the head of the the the you. know, the the secret citizen and I had. before you know it, I had like 20 old. people doing it. We were doing contests.

I was paying them 50 bucks a day. >> And you and they don't even know. >> They don't know it's going to get. credited. Yeah. They were helping. I had. all the It was awesome, man. But they. they had fun. They were laughing. >> Yeah. They had fun for sure. They did. they did contests for sure. >> Who could do the most? I would give a. bonus with who could do the most. Oh, they would all come out. >> But they had no idea they were helping. you counterfeit. >> Not at all. Not at all. Not one bit. Yeah. And and we and we got it done like. that. It was so awesome. Yeah. That was. fun. But anyway, so yeah, we the the. paper we'd run it through. We'd do the. background. Then we would do the the the.

[clears throat] weave and the face. And. then we would run it through the new. technology and we would do the serial. numbers and the seals. And then that. little hundred, right? Mhm. >> And then even that with the with the. shift ink, this is what was the coolest. thing. I I I think with with me creating. this bill was how I was able to take. just your common things, right? Like. take car paint and use it for the. shifting ink, right? It's car paint, but. I but I was able to alter it. Well, not. it was the same company that made it for.

the feds, right? I mean, wasn't too. smart of them, right? You know, >> how did you find out that they made it. for the feds? >> Through their uh patent number. So, so I. would also look up patent numbers. That's how I figured out the counter. machine in the banks. >> So, I was I'm like a scientist with. stuff, man. I'm always trying to figure. things out. And what's really nuts is. the federal government, man, they give. you like the patent office. If you have. a patent number, you could go to the. patent office and put patent number and. it'll tell you you could make a nuclear. bomb if you wanted. I think actually. >> it'll tell you everything about it. >> Tell you everything about it. Well, it. has to, >> right? So, if you're trying to file a.

patent, you got to do a patent search, right? So, I got the my boy's mom worked. at the bank and I had her get the patent. number off the counter machine. >> and then I just went and put it in in in. the, you know, patent trademark office. and it gave me the whole schematic, man. How it used the magnetic ink for the. thread, how it did this, how it counted. I mean, I literally defeated the bill by. using their own knowledge. Yeah, it was. pretty cool, you know. But, um, >> Wow, dude. Dude, I I and and I remember. whenever we whenever we met up in. Chicago, you told me that um yeah, like. whenever you made that first bill, it.

was crazy. The feeling was like really. overwhelming because um. >> it was scary. It was I mean I don't get. scared much, but it it it put a it put a. a level of fear in me like what did I. just do? You know, like I you know, cuz. I'm from the streets and and I and I and. I've seen people get hurt. [snorts] I've. seen people do really well, but money. can cause a lot of things, you know. >> Oh, yeah. >> And and so for me, I'm sitting here like. the the the first thing that came to. mind is be as secretive as possible.

Don't let anybody know. >> Like I didn't want to tell nobody. Right. So it wasn't, >> you know, sometimes you do something. that that you're so proud of that you. you want to go show your mama. >> Yeah. I didn't want to show my mama this. one, right? Like I didn't want to show. nobody, man. I And I got nervous. I'm. like, man, they'll kill us. They'll kill. us. I told I actually told they'll kill. us for this, man. Like, >> this is their power and we're and we're. learning how to create it out of. freaking yellow pages.

>> Yeah. >> You know, like. >> I can't even imagine. >> Yeah. It's ridiculous, you know? And so, >> and so now you can make money. >> Yeah. >> Right. How long does it take to you to. make like a decent amount of money and. then what do you decide you're going to. start doing and what do you start. spending it on? >> Well, again, crime escalates, right? So, you know, at first it was like we wanted. to just because I wanted to be secretive. about it. We would just drive around the. country and just spend it, right? We'd. shoot shoot to the other side of the. country. >> Where'd y'all go? Like Vegas to the. malls, you know? I mean, no, we'd hit I.

probably hit every town in the country. Like I I'm like back roady, man. I have. been on every back road in this. >> You were just cruising, having a good. time. >> I got like 2 million miles under me for. sure. AB: Absolutely. On the road. driving. >> Yeah. Back then we had the Atlas, you. know. So we look at a town and every. town always had like this little mall in. it, you know, and Natalie got good boy. She could hit a mall, man, be on the. other side of it, spend, you know, almost 15,000 in like an hour and a. half. >> And we'd be on the road gone, you know, and we sometimes, well, we the most we.

ever did was three in one day. She was. on a roll. I don't know if she did a. line of cocaine or what, man, but she. wouldn't stop. >> You know, if she did a line of cocaine, but let's keep it going. >> Yeah. Keep Well, she was going. [laughter]. Anyway, so like yeah, we would hit the. road, man. And but what happened is. first we started buying things for us. >> Mhm. >> And then before long, you got so much, man. don't mean nothing. Like. you're almost like, "God, I feel like an. right? I got 150 shirts, >> right?" Yeah. Yeah. What are you going. to do? You have Yeah. A lot of pairs of.

shoes. What are you even going to do? >> Yeah. So then we started getting things. for like our family and friends and. stuff like that. >> And were people noticing that you had. money? For sure. >> Yeah. But the people, you know, here the. thing is is I was always looked at as a. hustler. >> Got it. >> Right. So whether it was robbing drug. dealers or like I mean we even hit hit. trucks a little bit, you know. My boy. was a teamster. We'd get off the. the docks, you know, all the time. One. time I had like 250,000 condoms. Everyone in Chicago was wearing one of. the condoms. I was Yeah. Anyway.

>> Oh, you robbed the truck? >> Yeah. The trucks. Yeah. Trucks in. Chicago. That was another little hustle. we had. You know, I had big razors. cuz. I had man I had I've had everything, you. know. But anyway, back to to to the the. the the money. >> Yeah. How were you spending it? >> So, we So, we started buying stuff for. like our families and friends, you know. But then that that even kind of got to. the point to where like people started. expecting things. >> Yeah. >> Like, you know, like you'd come into. town and like they would be like always. looking what's what's he got me now?

Right. You know, and if you didn't. there'd be like an attitude or. something, you know. So like [snorts]. that's when I stepped away from that and. then then we just started buying things. for kids, right? I grew up poor, grew up. in the projects, you know, we were at. the Salvation Army shelter home, you. know, and so there's a Salvation Army. box in every town, right? >> So I would just tell tell Natalie, "Listen, just get diapers, baby clothes, baby shoes, baby toys. >> Let's go drop them off.". >> And we'll just drop them off. And that. was like that was like one of the. coolest times of my life. >> That's the most fulfilling. They say I.

they say I did that. My my therapist. said when I was in prison, I did it to. like cover up my crime. But but for me, it really I I loved helping people, man. It was awesome. >> What made it one of the best times of. your life? >> Well, cuz I just knew cuz it wasn't even. just the Salvation Army, but even. families like, you know, uh one of. Natalie's friends down in Houston was. struggling, man. And we just showed up. at Christmas and just bam, blessed her. kids with with with with rent and toys. They weren't going to have a Christmas, right? Right. And see that, you know, or. even like I'd go to church, man. Like I. was even I was so sick with it. I would.

take 10% out and I'd go to church on. Sunday. We'd hit we hit the malls Friday. and Saturday and I go church and and. give them 10% and walk out, you know? Like I I just love doing things like. that, you know. >> So you were using some of the. counterfeit money to go tithe. You give. 10% counterfeit. >> Got to give God the money. He's the. biggest gangster ever, man. You know. >> Oh, [laughter] for sure. >> Got to give him his, man. Well, you know. what? That's the thing about life, right? Like the there's there's I call. it the flow, right? Like when you when. you when you give, man, it it you're.

what you're doing is you're opening. yourself up, man, for a lot of good. Yeah. A lot of good. You know, and I. learned how to do that even in the. toughest times. Like, man, we when there. were times when I was growing up, man, where we didn't have uh hot water for. two years, we didn't have no hot water. You know how cold it gets in Chicago? And here you're you're taking a cold. shower, you know, while it's 30° out. Yeah. >> Like that was rough, you know? But. even in that, you found some happiness, man. Right. And it's all about the mind, the thought, man, where you where you. where you going to be, you know?

>> And so for me, helping these kids, giving back, doing that was like, and I. say it's one of the coolest times. because. >> even though there was my mom was. mentally ill, you know, my dad was gone, my brother was, you know, I lost my. brother to mental illness, he was no. longer with us, you know, I lost two. years ago. Yeah. Yeah. You know, out in. LA, man, he just, >> you know, he's gone. But. >> but he was, he was special. He had a. great mind, right? But you know, so for. me, the money at that time, that's what.

brought me happiness, right? >> Was giving, >> right? So it led you to a place where. it's like, yeah, at least I get to do. something for others, right? That's a. good I mean, it makes sense, especially. if you come from a place where you. didn't have much. >> then you would want to be able to give. to others, you know. Um, did you try to. put any money in the bank? >> No. No. I mean, my bank was a forest. reserve. >> Just burying it. >> Yeah, I'd bury it, man. I'd say I'd. stuff it in PVC pipes. Well, first I'd. put it in plastic, seal it, and put. because PVC doesn't disintegrate, you.

know, and stuff it in there and then go. bury it. I I probably still got stuff. buried out there. I just don't know. where it's at. We go look sometime if. you ever come up there. >> Hypothetically. >> I probably at least three that are still. buried somewhere over there. I just lost. the map. >> 3 mil, you think? >> Oh, no. I don't know about that. I'd. always do like $100,000 tubes. Yeah. >> You know, like just little ones, you. know, put maybe two or three or four. tubes in a hole. five tubes, you know. [snorts] But yeah, I did lose some out. there, but I really don't know where. it's at and I don't want to find it.

Just that's just I just need to say. that. [laughter]. >> Did you ever give counterfeit money to. people that you knew? >> Uh not like purposely, right? You know, like I I like to play with it. One of my. favorite things back then, you know, the. bombs on the street that would have the. little signs will work for food, right? I always give them 100. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. [clears throat]. Cuz you know they'll go spend it and. they were good. But I knew that they. wouldn't get caught with it, right? And. they'd go spend it in a place that I. probably would never have gone, >> right? >> You know, so like if it did pop up, hey,

is he, you know, what's going on? >> What happens to places that end up with. counterfeit money? Like what happens to. say like you go to like a bodega or gas. station, someplace, you pass a $100 bill. on them. What happens to those? >> So So here's things like so like. corporate stuff back then, they could. just write it off, right? The bank could. snatch it. They'd have to write it off. as a loss, right? We we'd always try to. stay away from like B, you know, we I I. don't want to go hit a mama pop w with a. bogus hunter, you know, cuz I don't want. it to pop up on them in their bank and. then they get it. So, it was always like.

I always try to stay towards the. corporation stuff, you know, like the. Walgreens, the Walmarts again, you know, I I I wouldn't go to the corner store. and spend it on on on old lady, you. know. Got it. Yeah. So I but but but the. corporations I you know now I mean I. think they changed it to where now they. do make them responsible but back then. because it wasn't so like aggressive. the the laws were a little bit lighter. >> What do you mean it wasn't so. aggressive? >> Well, there wasn't the counterfeiting. wasn't like a really big crime. Like.

there's drug dealers in every city, thousands of them, right? >> There might be one or two counterfeits. in a city, right? Like the crime was, especially when the new bill did come. out, it did defeat a lot of things, you. know, a lot. >> 1996 $100 bill. >> It put a lot of people out of business, you know, like it did. >> Yeah. >> And um, >> you know, and and and and still does. there. I mean, I don't think really. there's been a a huge, you know, impact. of counterfeit since then, especially. with the new bill. The new bill is.

almost impossible to do. >> Yeah. >> It would cost too much money to try to. even replicate it. >> Is that true? >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. >> What new features have been added? Well, the visual physics, it's that purple. strip. So, like I said, yeah, you can. look it up, but that that on the 2015, I. think it came out in 15 or I think it. was 13 cuz that's when I got out. I felt. like they let it out right when I got. out. And uh it's a purple strip that. goes down the middle. Okay. >> And it's actually like a There it is. It's actually like t thousand like nano. nano shards of glass that they embed and.

and it and it it's called visual. physics. It's actually really. fascinating. Do they even tell you it's. called visual physics in that thing? No. No, they don't. >> Let me see this right here. This says it. has a 3D security ribbon for one, where. if you tilt the note back and forth. while focusing on the blue ribbon or. blue strip some people call them, you. will see the bells change to 100s as. they move. When you tilt the note back. and forth, the bells and 100s move side. to side. If you tilt it side to side, they move up and down. The ribbon is.

woven into the paper, not printed on it. Wow. >> It's called visual physics. That's the. name of it. Scientists created and the. reason they didn't release the bill at. the time. >> was because that the bills were. defected. So that that printing. technology wasn't perfected and they. were trying to use it too soon. So if. you take a hundred if we had one and you. folded it right on that, it would rip. from there real easy. >> Real easy. Right. And and so they didn't. release it for a while. >> The ribbon would rip. You mean? >> Yeah. Right on the edge of the ribbon. The bill would just come right apart.

Whereas money's made to be to to last. Right. Got it. And so these ones were a. little bit that that that that. technology wasn't perfected when they. decided to to use it. >> Got it. Let me read the rest of these. Yeah. Bell in the inkwell color shifting. 100. Um erased in Taglio printing. Uh. genuine bills feel slightly rough. particularly across Franklin's portrait. and certain printed areas. Uh UV. >> on his lapel. You could feel his lapel. >> Oh, you can? >> Yeah. When you rub your thumb across his.

lapel, you can feel it. And. >> they had a famous director. um who used to uh they had a famous. director who used to pass money. I think. it was from that movie Live and Die in. Los Angeles. You look at it. Might have. been Williams. >> Oh, Live and Die in LA. >> Yeah. >> It's one of the greatest movies ever. >> Live and die in LA. >> Yeah. I love it. It's the only. counterfeit money. >> Oh yeah. This is the guy right here. William Frein. Let's let's hear this. real fast. >> He introduced me to a counterfeitter. that he had arrested and put in prison.

And he got this guy out to come and make. counterfeit money for us, which was as. good as the government's money. I know. because I used to pass it. >> I used to spend these fake 20s. Th This. guy was an artist. If I was the. government, I'd hire that guy to make. the money cheaper. >> So, yeah, that's pretty wild. I remember. hearing about that. That he used to pass. this money. He used to go around and. spend it. And they had it on this the. money they got. I believe it was from. the set of uh Live and Die in LA.

>> I'd like to get some of that. >> Yeah, >> I collect money. I'd love to get my. hands on some. >> I bet you do. >> I was actually doing a painting of Live. and Die in LA in my gallery and in on. Mel So I'm an artist now, right? I told. you. But I had I had a space on Melrose. in Lassi and I was doing uh a Live and. Die in LA picture, right? I was doing. the the like the poster that it came. out, but I I made it with money. And I. mean, I made it really badass and it was. really big. >> And on Halloween night, I I didn't go in.

cuz I went to take the kids. trick-or-treating. >> Mhm. >> And there was a driveby and all my. windows got shot out and somebody got. shot. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I would have been there if I. didn't go trick-or-treating, but I was. doing to live in Dino and I got bullet I. got bullet holes in my window like what. the hell is this, man? >> Dude, but then predict the future. Predict like a really good like Theo. goes to heaven. Paint that one. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> but yeah. So. >> let's go back into it. So how much money. do you think you printed over time? >> Oh gosh. I mean millions. Millions. You.

know, but I burn millions too. Like so. so my way I I would burn money if it was. if it wouldn't come out right, you know. I'd get rid of it immediately. >> because it was too risky to pass. Try. and pass it. >> Yeah. Yeah. He just didn't want it. floating around, you know, and. >> like what's the escalation ladder like. once that once you start to make money, you're buying things, you're tithing, you don't even know what to do. Like. what's happening with you personally and. then what's happening with you as far as. making the money? >> Personally, you know, me and Natalie are. having the greatest time of our life,

right? But, uh, I was getting tired of. hitting the road all the time. It gets. exhausting. >> because you don't want to spend it at. home. >> No, no, you don't. Yeah, absolutely not. Right. But I hadn't been in Chicago in. like nine years. So when I went to. Texas, I had stayed down there. And so I. wanted to go back home, you know, and. and show my friends, you know, like now. it's time, you know, I know that, you. know, I know I'm from a organized crime. neighborhood, you know. So I'm thinking, man, this might be good, you know, I. won't have to be driving around all the.

time cuz you're taking chances when. you're hitting the road with that stuff, right? You get pulled over and you got. stacks of 20s, fives, and ones, you. know, the cops are going to be thinking. something. >> How much would you have in the car. sometimes? Oh god. 30,000 40,000 like. it's scary. You have so much you know. like Yeah. You're like yeah even recent. you know anyway. Yeah. So yeah the money. you have a lot of it gets you nervous. and. >> and so I wanted a little bit easier life. with it right. So that's what happens. with crime though. It escalates like I. told you in the first and so when I went. back home. my my so when I was growing up in.

Chicago the other thing is I like to. play basketball. Love basketball. So, I. was on different teams and we would go. to different neighborhoods. >> and whereas the the Chicago could could. be a little racy at times, you know. >> Uh, sports always healed that, you know. So, I could go I could go to 47th in. Indiana, man, and go hoop and them boys. love me over there, right? Or I could go. to Pilson, man. I' I'd hoop with the. with the Amigos over there. I mean, I I. was able to go all over the city because. basketball got it. >> And and I would, you know, I I created.

friendships in all the different areas, man. you know, you carry in village and. even now like I go anywhere, man. I'm. probably the only white dude that go. third and Wallace, you know, and hang. out and just chill there, right? >> All them cats over there love me, you. know. >> Really? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> I'd go over there. I'd leave quick. >> I'd take you over there with me. I mean, they would. >> I would leave quick, but I would go. >> But but I'm saying like I I could move. through the city cuz I just And so when. I went back, >> you know, I went back to my boys, you. know. Got it. And. >> so were you trying to big shot at that. time? A little bit like did you get a. >> Not at that time. Not at that time. At.

that time I just wanted to sell large. chunks of it, right? I wanted to sell. 100,000 at a time for 30, right? Or. 200,000. I never really wanted to go too. high with the number. >> That's high. >> Uh 100,000 was a good number, right? 100. for 30. You you could walk away from. that one, right? You start getting into. the bigger numbers, you know? I've had. people say, "I want a million dollar." I. had one guy, Jordanian, dude won five. million. Right. >> Did you consider it? >> Uh I I did, but I I didn't right like I. didn't do it, you know? I I considered.

it. You know, he actually showed up. I I. told him he was full of I'm like, "You ain't got that type of cash." And. he showed up. He showed up, popped his. trunk, man. And uh. >> he had 300 grand. >> Well, that was 5 million. So, he had. like 1.5. It was Yeah, it was a lot of. money. He had a suitcase of money. >> What kind of car? >> First time I Rolls-Royce, too. >> In a Rolls-Royce. >> Well, he actually owned uh he owned uh. >> You can't pull up in a damn with that. >> No, he he owned the exotic uh car rental. company in Chicago years ago. >> Oh, his cousin who I was going through. actually killed himself on the road in.

Vegas. There's actually a video of it. Yeah. It got real weird because. they were taking the money to Vegas. His. his his uh [snorts]. >> his um his stepmom or something owned a. casino in Vegas and they were running. the money through there and the guy. would win. They would win that money. >> They win my money. Yeah. It was nuts, man. Right. Yeah. It was crazy. Yeah. And then I guess Muhammad Yeah. That's. that was a real wild thing. >> Yeah. That sounds like a bad idea. >> It was a bad idea. Yeah. >> But that sounds exciting though. Well, for for for me, you know,

>> and so how much were you keeping at the. house then? >> Yeah. My I I I didn't So, one of my. dudes, um Irish cat from the southside, his his dad was a big re real estate. guy. He had like, >> man, he probably had gosh, he probably. had like 60 buildings on the south side. >> Big apartment buildings. It had like, you know, 20 30 apartments in them. Like. Cat was well off. He had a lot of. apartment buildings, man. >> And when he died, my friend got them. all. Oh So my buddy inherited like. 40 apartment buildings, you know, and.

>> I'd sleep everywhere. >> Well, I had eight apartments at one. time, man. You did? Yeah, I had. something over there. >> You had how many? >> About eight at one time. Eight. apartments. Yeah, about eight. >> And so you would keep money in them. >> Well, I' I'd keep I'd keep equipment and. so so I never did everything at all at. the same place. >> Got it. >> Right. Like I would print the money on. the offset in one area and then I'd move. it. Right. I wanted to get get it away. from the offset as quick as possible. Got it. Right. Because if I just got. caught with this, I'm cool. I get caught. with that, uh-uh, I'm gone. I wouldn't.

even been sitting there if I got caught. with that. >> I see. >> Yeah. So, yeah, I was always able to get. away without getting caught with the. equipment. They didn't they they never. caught any equipment with me, you know, but but so yeah, I would have stuff over. here. I'd have paper over here. I'd have. money stashed over here. >> And And how did things start to get hot? >> Uh just. ego, you know, living life, you know, not the money's coming. Yeah. Buying. extra sandwiches, >> going to the clubs, >> cars, hats, >> cocaine's blowing in there, you know.

what I mean? Just the whole nine. >> You started popping, huh? >> Oh, man. I was an animal. I was a. savage. >> I didn't [laughter] know all that. dude. >> Savage, man. >> You made it sound like you're. >> Yeah, I am. Now I'm a grown old man dad. [laughter]. >> No, but you made it sound like you're in. there tithing. You guys are just popping. into different malls, freaking blessing. cinnabons and And now you're over. here telling me y'all out, getting it. going. >> I was a dirty Christian. That's how I. call it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I. would pray and you know anyway, man. Yeah. That I think who who termed that.

Shila Lu from Transformers. The dirty. Christian. >> The dirty Christian. >> The dirty Christian. Believe in God but. still still sin. No, we Well, that's. what happened, man. Just what when you. Well, one of my boys he So, I got a. really badass crew of cats in Chicago. Okay. >> Still do. My dude owned a drink. He was. one of the owners of the drink, which. was a real famous club in Chicago. Then. he had one of the dopest private clubs. in the city called Stilettos. Like super. private, you know.

>> I can imagine it. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so I had a my my. crew of guys, we we were like we were. serious. We were badasses, man. You know. what I'm saying? >> You guys were out doing it. >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Dude, I will say this, some of. the dudes that I know that get after it. the most. >> are from Chicago. >> Oh, yeah. No, we we know how to have a. good time, right? >> I mean, it's like it's unprecedented, bro. And then they're always like at. some point in the evening or weekend, they're always like, "Oh, have you tried. this like sausage from?" And it's always. like some dude's grilling up some uh.

some Polish Franks or whatever. It's. the best. >> Well, in the summer, my dude Tommy, he. he don't even use the stove. Yeah. And. yeah, it's grilling. We got one of our. guys, one of our guys, Crystal, he. Russian cat, man. He likes to cook. indoors, man. And Tommy tries to throw. him out the window. He's like, "Only. outside in the summer, man. No cooking. inside, you know. Literally that grill. is going non-stop. But yeah, no, I I. just had a good group of guys, but we. were animals. We were savages, man. >> Out getting after it. You doing. >> We were doing limos. We were doing just.

dumb man. >> Oh, limos are for. >> Yeah. Well, back then it was kind of. cool. >> Problem was you get in and the you got. to go all the way. You got to come all. the way out. Now, now we do the. suburbans. Those are the best way, right? Suburban. Dude, when I like. sometimes limos I'd get in if you're the. first person in you got to go all the. way to the like bro I'd be so drunk. sometimes I couldn't even get out like. it I'll just stay. >> out the sun I'll just stay in. there. >> yeah just stay in there go. >> cuz it's too long it's like a it's like. it was too far to get to the door dude.

>> yeah but things started getting out of. hand man you're doing you know you're. drinking going out you're doing you're. flexing show flexing and and you're just. making mistakes you got it. >> with me you know my and and then and. then For when I got caught, it was just. kind of just freak, right? Cuz for I'm. always moving, right? But. in in the early time, it was more of the. quiet, being the quiet ghost, right? You. know, and now you're going to the clubs. and you're meeting people and you're.

doing more and you're doing more and. you're doing more and you put yourself. in in more danger the more you do, >> right? >> And so I actually ended up at the House. of Blues. How I got, you know, how this. the whole thing went down is I I was at. the House of Blues. I was meeting. somebody. >> Dude, I've been to that house of blues. It's right over there. It's across the. river from the uh Chicago theater. >> Yeah. Yeah, it it was awesome back in. the day. >> Was there a band playing? >> Yeah. No, it was a great night. I mean, we had So, we went we were actually. staying at the hotel because I had like. a little I had like where I lived was in. Marshall, Illinois.

>> was like 3 hours or two. I forgot how. how south it was. It was on Highway One. But so, like I told you, I'm real weird. about where I lay my head at night. And. so I I I rarely ever was in the city, right? Where I laid my head was usually. outside the city. Oh, you know. >> Were you saying at that tall hotel right. there by the river? >> Uh well, you had the round things. You. know where the round is husk? >> That's it. That's it. That's it. That's. it. That's it. That's it. That's it. At. the corn husk. Yeah, it's the corn husk. >> That's when you're saying let's go, dude. I've stayed here. >> You want to go? Well, let's go. Yeah. Anyway, I got the cops. The cops kicked.

my door in. Did they ever kick yours in? >> No. >> Oh, okay. Well, they kicked mine in and. uh with guns out. >> You should have left the sign out there. >> No, they tricked me. Did [laughter] they. really? >> Well, what what happened is we were at. we were down at the uh so I'm coming in. I'm selling 100 grand to one of my. dudes. He had me meet, you know, we we. were going to stay at the House of. Blues. So, I had him meet us at the bar. [snorts] So, I get in and uh and and. he's just he he shows up. He's like, "Dude, I can't really stay cuz I got. family from he was a Russian, one of my. Russian friends, and he had family come. in. They were doing a wedding or.

something." And he's like, uh, he goes, "Why don't you come back, uh, to my. house and we'll party with all my family. and then we'll do the deal tomorrow.". >> I was like, "All right, cool. Let's do. it. Do it." So, I went with him. We had. a great time. But the bartender heard us. say party and I guess he was a a snitch. for, you know, some some some dicks. downtown, you know, >> and and so he called his little his. little, you know, contact. And so when. me and and my my my wife's sister. because I had my wife's sister, she. wanted to see the city and I brought her.

up and you know it was all that and um. and she was having a great time. And so. when we went up to the room, I went into. the room and she stayed on the couch, you know, near the front door. I was all. the way in the back in the in the in the. It was like, you know, the sweets, you. got the So. >> the phone rings like So we get we get. into the room like two in the morning. The phone rings. I pick it up and. there's there's no one there. You know, and when that happens, you. know, you got problems. >> You got about 30 seconds. >> Yeah. It's It's not good, right? I put.

the phone down and not like literally 30. I mean, quick, I hear the door knock, right? >> And do you have cash in there with you? >> Yeah, I had like 100 100,000. I had it I. had it in the closet uh in between the. towels. >> Mhm. As I put the phone down, I hear the. the the the uh the the you know the door. hitting and I and I and I scream out, "Don't open the door." Right. But she. got up cuz I was so cuz the suites were.

big. She didn't even hear me. She opened. the door. Boom. They come in. They got. their guns out. I'm like this, man. No. No. I'm on the bed. They It was just a. crazy movie scene, man. You know. >> what they think it was? >> They They thought I was selling drugs. So, so the. >> guy said party. >> Yeah, party. So, he thought it was. cocaine again. Cocaine gets you in. trouble, man. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, anyway, they they they they. came in there. Where's the cocaine? Where's the cocaine? I'm like, what are. you talking about? Like, I have no. clue what's happening right now.

They handcuffed me. They handcuffed my. my my wife's sister. She's crying. She's. only like 16 years old. >> So, she's scared. >> She's scared, right? She's cuz we were. supposed I was going to take her to the. museums and it was going to be a great. little like really nice day. Now she's. in cuffs, right? And I'm thinking, "Oh. my god, what is going on?". >> And does she know you have this money in. the room? >> No, she don't know nothing. Yeah, she. don't have a clue. I was just going drop. it off and and and and Natalie said, "Man, why don't you take my sister with. you? She wants to see the museums and. all that." And I'm like, "Whatever." I.

bring her and what happens? So So now. here I am. We're both handcuffed and. she's looking at me like, "Now, one. thing I will say about her, she didn't. say nothing, man. She was sorry." Yeah. She just stayed there. She was crying a. little bit. Then she kind of said, "Just. calm down. It's going to be all right.". And she listened to me. [snorts] Anyway, they're searching the room looking for. the cocaine. They find the money in the. closet. They got the money. It's a brick. money, you know. They said, "Listen, you're going to go through with the. deal. You're going to call your contact. and you're going to go through with this. deal and you're going to you're going to.

have him come here and bring the cocaine. here." I said, 'What are you talking. about, man? Well, that's why you have. this money. I'm like, man, you guys are. I I ain't doing nothing, you know? And. then they're getting all threaded and. all that. Well, my luck, the the one cop, he starts counting it, right? They get me there, they're. talking to me, you know, they're. they're counting me. He's like, man, you. know, and and then like probably like. about maybe I don't know, maybe 5. minutes into it, he starts looking and. he's looking for something and he calls.

his partner and he and and and he tells. his partner he didn't So the guy was a. banker before he was a cop. >> No, >> he worked at a bank like a teller before. he became a cop. So he wasn't seeing no. red and blue fibers in there. >> So I didn't have the red and blue fibers. in this and I later ended up putting. them in after this because this. happened. >> Yeah. But he didn't that cool ranch. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. He didn't have no. He didn't see the red and blue fire. It. had everything else. Had the watermark, had the strip. He's like, "Man, I don't. know what to think about this stuff." He.

goes, "It got all the stuff on it, but. I'm not seeing no fibers in it. It's. just not making sense." So, they said, "Well, we're taking them in anyway." So, they took me in, they took her in, and. uh and then the Secret Service came, a woman's secret service, and she said, "Oh, we. >> While you're in jail?". >> Yeah. They took us downtown, right? >> And what about the kid? They let her go. >> No. Hell no. They had her they put her. in the cell, too. But they, you know, the Secret Service showed up, right? And. you know, she's threatening me, telling. me, "We know this, we know that. We've.

been look." She goes, "First," she goes, "We've been looking for you. We've been. looking for you." I'm like, "Okay, you. know, whatever." She goes, "Where where, you know, >> then find me cuz. >> Yeah. She's trying Yeah. She's trying to. She wants to know where my stuff is, where my papers at, where this is at. She's. >> She's probably trying to meet someone, too. Well, she's. >> Who knows? >> Yeah. Well, who knows with them, right? Cuz they're so They're You know, you. don't know. >> Yeah. You never know. But what one thing. she was doing was threatening me with my. wife's sister. >> Oh, >> all right. She's like, "You're going to. tell me what I want, but she's going to. face some charges. She's going to face. some charges." And I'm like, "Man,

[clears throat] what am I going to do?". I didn't cuz I had to get my wife's. sister out. >> On a good note, back then you had like. those burn phones. Everyone, you know, you could get them at Walmart, right? Little $20 with the card. Remember, scratch the card off, put the number in. it. >> So, we had I was like I was like a James. Bond criminal, too. never went into. that. But I had uh surveillance. anti-surveillance I had bug. detectors. I had like all kinds of. whacked out stuff, man. Like, you know, just really had I could find hidden. cameras and Had this little thing.

that Anyway, I was real big into stuff. like that. And again, safety, right? Cuz. here, you know, we I didn't I I try I. always wanted it to keep it to where if. anything ever happened, it was just on. me. >> Got it. >> You know, that way I had Natalie in the. world still where she could help me. while I'm away. >> Right. You don't I don't want her to go. down too, you know, because then then it. takes my my access away, right? >> So, y'all ended up getting married, you. and her. >> Yeah, we ended up getting married. So, >> Okay, got it. >> So, here it is. I I said, "Okay, I'll. call her." Right. They said, "We know. you got your stuff here. You know, uh,

Pharaoh said that your mom or her mom is. with her sister right now at your house, but she don't know where the house is.". And there's no way she could have known. cuz it was in Marshall, Illinois. Man, we had they flew into Indianapolis. I. was in the cornfields, man. like real, right? >> And uh and they said, "So, we want you. to call her, right?" So, I called. Natalie and um I said, "Hey, listen. I'm. I'm here in Chicago. I'm not in a good. position. You know, they got your sister.

and uh" and she said, "Yeah, my mom's. trying to figure this thing out right. now." I said, "Okay, well, you know, there this this is a serious situation. It looks like I'm going to be going away. for a while." Well, what was awesome, she she went right into she went right. into uh her movement and she got rid of. everything. >> Everything. Like I mean I don't even. know how she did it. Her mama had to. help her. Right. But like by the time. they got there, Natalie strung them. along.

>> Mhm. >> Right. She kept stringing them along and. by the time they got there it was. completely empty. I had nothing in the. house. Man, the girl really saved my. ass. >> I get arrested. They they lock me up for. the money that was in there. They let. her go, right? I say it's my money, my. thing, right? And my lawyer comes and. he's telling he's tell reading me the. police report, right? And he reads it. off. He says, "Hey," he goes, "You know, they see weed on the they said they saw. weed on the table, right? And that's why. they came in, right? That that they seen.

it and boom, that was their probable. cause." I said, "Well, that's. impossible, man, because the the the. hallway, they'd have to be Superman. They'd have to have x-ray vision to. see the weed, right? >> And cuz there was a table around the. corner. So he had someone go take. pictures and then brought in the um. brought in the uh security person that. actually like came with the cops. >> and threatened to put him in jail if he. lied. So he told the truth, said that. there was no they didn't see no weed and. then he had the pictures. And so when I. went back to court 3 weeks later, my. attorney read off the put the the cop on.

the stand and read off the real police. report. Uh yeah, we seen weed on the. table and that gave us probable cause. then it. >> so it's illegal. >> It was all legal. He said he goes, you. know, officer, he goes, "You're saying. that you were able to see it?" He goes, "Well, I have photos here with an. affidavit from the manager of the hotel. that says no furniture was moved. >> and there's no way you could have seen. the table right away. The prosecutor, ah, judge, right? They stopped the. hearing. judge dismissed it and. I walked right out.". >> Nuh-uh. >> Walked right out.

>> You were free? >> I was free. Yeah. Couldn't believe it. I. remember I called I called she was went. back to Texas cuz she was from Texas. with her mom. >> I remember calling her. I'm like and she. goes, "Where you at? How'd you call me. with you?" Because usually it's like you. got a call from a correctional facility, right? Yeah. >> There's none of that It's just me. calling her. >> and I said, "Man, they let me out today. I just beat my case.". >> She's like, "What?". >> And so then I end up going there and. then, you know, >> then you kept doing it. >> Well, no, I stopped. Then I I I went. through I went into like a real bad. depression and man. and just I I.

couldn't cuz now I got Secret Service. knowing who I am, you know, and like and. and then I felt like I was locked. I I. if I didn't. >> So they knew it was counterfeit. So. >> Oh, yeah. But they they had to destroy. it. They they had throw the money away, you know. >> And did you have any money hidden. anymore at that time? >> I mean, I had money stashed here and I. had But I was scared to go it. I was I. was like I felt like the trees were. watching, man. You know, like it was. like, you know, in the Secret Service, you don't really know know what they. know, right? >> Right. like you they they got secret.

weapons and man. They could see. underneath. >> Yeah, their name starts with secret. >> Secret. Yeah, that's enough right there. Like, you know, so so for me, it was in. my head. And so I ended up I ended up. watching this movie, man. Uh it uh it. was an arm wrestle movie with Sylvester. Stallone. Over the top. >> Over the top. [clears throat] Yeah. >> And And it was about a dad and a kid, man. And And I just was missing my pops. >> Over the Top's a gay movie now. I think. it's like. >> Yeah. Is it? Yeah. >> Yeah. I think it's like [clears throat]. Over the Top or whatever. or I don't. know. I don't remember what it is, but.

it's something like that. >> Well, back then it was an arm wrestling. movie. Yeah. With Sylvester. >> Oh, it's over the bottom, I think. >> Over the bottom? No, we don't want to do. no bottoms. >> That's the one I'm thinking of. >> We don't want to do no bomb at the top. [laughter]. >> Yeah, this movie I remember for sure. >> Yeah, over the top, man. It was awesome. My bad. >> So, anyway, I ended up trying to find my. pops. I went I went on started looking. for Arthur J. Williams Jr. One pops up. in uh uh Alaska. >> So, your past started catching up with. you then, probably. Well, now. everything's caving in, right? You know, like my whole world is is like I can't I.

don't want to go near my presses. I. don't want to go to the apartments. I. don't want to go here. I don't want to. drive that car. I don't, you know, like. I'm in a bad depression, man. Like I. don't I just don't want to move. >> So, you find out where your dad lives. >> Yeah. So, I ended up watching this. movie. Now, I got this thing. So, I find. out there's a PO box in uh what was it? Um it was east of Anchorage. Chickaloon. Chickaloon, Alaska. Damn. Right. Way the. hell up there, man. Right. >> He got far away from you guys. That's. crazy. >> Yeah. Well, it was the lady he took off. with, right? She she didn't want him to.

be around his kids, >> so she made sure she took him as far. away from us as she could, you know. >> That's crazy. >> Yeah. It was terrible. But so I find him. and I I write a letter, you know, I say, "Hey man, if this is Art Williams boom. from Chicago, this is your son, man. Here's my phone number." And I had a. burnout phone. And it took about three. weeks. He called me and when he called. me I I was like you [clears throat] know. I said hey you know I didn't tell him. what was going on I just say man I'd. like to see you know he said well you.

come up here. >> so be that this was before the 911 so. you know you could still get into the. airports you know pretty easily you know. >> and so I had fake IDs too you know so I. I ended up sneaking off to Seattle and. then I flew out of Seattle to Anchorage. and I and I brought Natalie with me. [snorts] and uh I don't know man my dad. picked us up with that chick He took off. and I could just see the the the the. darkness on her face that I was showing. up, you know. >> Yeah. >> And uh and he we I remember driving out. to his house and just kind of tripping.

that I was in Alaska like I'm a straight. southside city boy, man. And now I'm in. a wilderness, you know? And that. shit's wilderness out there, you know? >> Yeah, that's what I heard. >> Oh yeah. It's beautiful though, man. Nothing like it. But like we when we we. we got to this house, he had another. separate like little guest house and. then he had like a little trailer over. here, you know, and so we went into this. guest house and and Natalie went out to. the trailer actually and then uh and his. wife went into their house and me and my. pops just stayed up for like two days,

man, smoking that Alaska perp, you know, cuz he he had the you know that the. purple bud before people knew it was. purple, you know. >> Oh, y'all was been off that iceberg. >> We were just and we were talking. and catching up. Was he like a crime. guy? >> I mean, yeah. Well, he was a paper. hanger at one time, you know, like when. I was young, he was running checks, so. it's kind of kind of odd that I ended up. running money, right? Paper, you know, and at that time, so when when me and. him were hanging when I went to Alaska, you know, and we're smoking and we're. talking. We literally stayed up for like.

two days just catching up and I was. telling him about everything. I I opened. up about what I did. I had some of it on. me. I showed him some of it. >> You break him off a little. >> Well, that's where all things went bad, right? And that's when I ended up going. to prison cuz you know after I showed. him so I call it gold fever right like. when people when people when I would. show that's the reason I didn't show too. many people because when you showed. somebody the bills and they and even man. like even my canvas ones now people see. can we print it on paper right if. because I print on canvas and I paint.

over it right. >> but even those bills I've had people say. man that looks good it's on canvas it's. not even on paper so when you would show. someone the real They get wet, their. mouth gets wet. >> Yeah. Their brain gets wet, everything. gets wet, you know, like they they just. it's I I call it gopher because they. would go into this [snorts]. >> just their eyes would change, you know, >> especially if he's up in Alaska. He's. already half he's into that. >> Yeah. Well, he Well, it got it got nuts. I mean, he um. >> So, you showed him the money. >> I showed him the money and then after we.

started moving around, he he had his own. thing going on. He was growing bud in uh. like track truck tractor trailers. He. they bury him underground and then they. he would tap into the the the power line. on the side of the highway. Like he had. some crazy going on too. >> Damn, y'all are wild. >> Yeah. No, he was on one. Like I was. like, "Man, you scared to get. electrocuted." He's like, "Man, you was. actually tapping into to the the power. line, you know, >> and they were and then they had this uh. special material that the the heats. could the airplanes couldn't look. through. Like they were on some this is.

early in the game, you know." And um and. so we we were bonding by showing each. other what we were doing. >> Yeah. I'll show you my I'll show you. >> Yeah. I'm doing the money, you're doing. the weed, you know. >> I'll show you my crime. You show me. yours. >> That's pretty much what it was. That's. how we reunited, man. Like through crime. things, you know, and uh and it was. awesome, man. My dad was cool, man. It. was funny, man. He was he was he was um. it sucked. He had left, you know. I. think for him, you know, he he seen how. I was, right? Like we we we were cool, man. and and and and and he felt I could.

feel the the like, damn, I wish I would. have known this cat, you know, like I. wish I would have been around him more, you know? >> Yeah. He pro you guys probably would. have had a good time together. >> Good time. Yeah. You know, but. >> so anyway, he started um he started. asking me if I if he could make if I. could make more, >> right? >> And and and I was like, man, yeah, of. course. And then and then it's my dad, so I want to make him proud, you know? And so, but I came clean with him. I. said, look it, man. the reason I. actually came to find you is because I. got jammed up in Chicago. And so I had I.

had to disappear. And he and he said, "Well, can you still make the money?" I. said, "Well, of course I can make it, but we have to change it. I can't make. it exactly the same cuz then they'll. know it's me. So some sort of element. has to be changed in it." And so then he. goes, "Well, can you do it?" And I'm. like, "Yeah, I think.". >> Were you planning on doing it? >> Uh there was a thought because I knew I. couldn't use the same recipe, you know. But were you planning on making more? >> No. Hell no. I wanted to go up there and. I didn't want to do nothing, man. I just.

I just wanted my pops. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I just wanted my pops. I didn't. want to make no money, you know. >> Damn. That's kind of crazy then that he. asked you. >> Yeah. Well, he's a crime. He's a crime. crime guy, man. You know, and then and. then we're bragging about it. Hey, look. at this. You know, and. >> Right. So then maybe he thinks my son. thinks it's cool, too. >> Yeah. You know, and then and even when I. told him about what happened, man, he's. like, "You got to wait." So there was. even the element that I pulled the fast. one. >> Right. Right? Like that even that was. impressive to him. Right? You got out. I. got out. Right. And now you're here. They don't know where you're at. Right.

them. Let's go. Right. >> So So I told him, I said, "Listen, I'm. going to do this. I got to go back to. Chicago and I got to get some supplies. and we'll ship them up here.". And so I had I had brought with me. I had brought with me about 20,000 of. the fake money. I used to I used to have. a belt that I could put 10 grand in. Mhm. >> And I could wear it around, you know, >> and that's what I was showing him. And. so I said I I said, "Here, listen. I'm. going to leave this. Let's leave most of.

it here and let's fly into Seattle and. then we'll drive across the country to. Chicago. We can spend a little money, check out, get close cuz, you know, we haven't seen. each other for 22 years.". >> Yeah. >> Right. >> And um. >> spend a little counterfeit cash, enjoy. >> enjoy. Yeah. Go to Chicago, get the. material, ship it back. And we did. We. we you know he so he left the stuff with. his his his wife though and she hated me. and so she started spending it in Alaska. giving it to her friends telling her.

friends who made it telling it was fake. you know. >> buying moose meat and. >> just yeah moose meat probably yeah all. yeah. >> fur hats fur. >> fish. made out of fur. >> but they were spending it and and I had. specifically told him you cannot spend. this here in this in Alaska you can't. you know. >> because It's It's way up here, man. You know, you're done. At least in. the lower 48, you know, you you move the. money around. So, anyway, >> she did though. And not only did she,

but then she she made sure she let the. Secret Service know who was making it. when it all came down, right? [snorts]. Because when we were in Chicago, so here. I am in Chicago and I'm send we're. sending stuff back. >> And um and then we see my sister and my. sister, my dad, they get into it. My. sister ain't as forgiving as I am. Mhm. >> She's kind of like, "Man, this guy." Yeah. Yeah. You know, and she's even at me like, "What? What. the deal, man? What do you care? What do. you care about this cat? He left us, you. know.". >> Yeah. >> And uh and so I didn't go back with him.

I shipped every all the stuff and I said. I told him I had to go to Texas to get. one thing. Uh and why don't he fly back. and then I'll come. And I I ended up. leaving Natalie and the baby up there. and she was pregnant right with with. >> in Alaska. In Alaska. >> Okay. And so when I finally called her, I went back to Texas. She goes, "Why? Why aren't you on the plane with your. dad?" I'm like, "Oh man, I had to go. here." She goes, "Fuck that. You better. I'm pregnant, dude. What are you doing?". You know? >> Yeah. >> And so I ended up getting the things I.

needed and I fly I flew back to to. Anchorage, but I stayed with uh Anie's. daughter in Anchorage when he when he. was out there. >> And um. >> and it's so so so weird how things. happened and how fast, but I was I was. getting a bad feeling. I don't know. It. was weird. like I just wanted to get out. of there. So, I'm telling Natalie, I'm. like, "Hey, we're leaving. We're out. here." And and oh, that's what it was. When when when I went to visit him, [snorts] he took me uh he took me to. this biker party. It was Hell's Angels, right? He he was real cool friends with.

one of the big dogs up there. And uh and. we went to this crazy ass like gathering. and and he introduced me to the dude. And then he then he told the dude that I. was the one that made the money. And I. looked at him like, >> "What are you telling this cat that I. don't know that I'm making money, man?". I got pissed with him, man. Real real. real bad. >> That's pretty shitty. >> Yeah, it was terrible, man. He started. showing me colors of reason why he left, >> you know? There was a reason he left. because he wasn't that that that cool. laughy dude. There was something wrong,

you know. >> Yeah. >> And now I'm seeing it, right? And so. after that happened, when I got back to. to to the house, I told, "Hey, pack up. We're leaving. We're getting out of. here." And uh and so then I ended up. flying to Houston and one of my dudes. picked up but the Secret Service was. waiting for me in Dallas. So unbeknownst. to me as I'm wanting to get out of. Anchorage because of how he is Anise is. working with the the Secret Service the. whole time. >> His wife. >> His wife. >> Oh. >> yeah. So they're getting ready to. >> Why Why would she do that?

>> She just didn't want me around. She. didn't want his kids around. It was the. whole reason he took off for 22 years, you know. And so this was her way of. just like get get him out of here, you. know. >> So once you hit Houston. >> Yeah. Once I hit Houston, my boy drives. me up to Dallas to where Nally's mom is. and Secret Service were waiting for me. They busted. They they grabbed us. They. said, "We got you." And they did. You. know, they had me. I ended up going to. prison. My dad ended up going to prison. because he had guns in the house and he. was a felon in possession. And uh and. then she she was the the the.

confidential informant. But when she. went to court, she she pleaded insanity. and they oh no, this woman was crazy, right? She pleads insanity. I get three. years. My dad gets six years or no, he. got four and a half years. And then she. pleads insanity and the judge takes her. to trial and gives her six. >> Wow. >> She gets six years. >> Cuz she was lying about it. >> Cuz she was lying about it. I got less. than everyone. It was wild. On the day I. get out, >> at least you finally knew where your dad. was for four and a half years, you know.

>> Yeah. Yeah, he was in shared federal. correctional. But yeah. Yeah. But. anyway, well, the sad part though is the. day I got out of prison, he died. >> No. >> Yeah. Had a heart attack that morning. >> In prison. >> In prison. >> Oh, man. I'm sorry. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You should not have just said that. >> Oh, no, man. It's cool, man. My dad's. laughing his ass off right now. He ain't. tripping, man. You know, I I ain't So, the thing is is that's irony in life, man. Right. Like, when my when I got So, here you are. I'm getting ready to get. out of prison. You're packing your. stuff. You're happy. you're going home.

You know, there's no better feeling than. getting your freedom back, right? And. you walk out the door and then you get. handed, you know, a phone and and they. tell you your dad's dead. And so you go. from one high to the next quick, right? And [snorts]. and I had to deal with that. And then I. ended up getting my son, right? So I had. now I got a 13-year-old whose mom's a. cop and she's calling me pissed off. because he's printing $20 bills at her. house off her little printer. >> Probably just trying to relate to his. dad. >> Exactly. Right. Because I just got out. of prison. So now I got this kid, you.

know, that I'm taking care of because. she don't want him at the house. And you. know, me and him ended up going to. prison together. >> for what? >> Money. I ended up going back. >> with your own son. >> Yeah. >> No, we're sorry, dude. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> You weren't arrested at the same time. >> No, we weren't arrested at the same. time. So So he's 13, >> bro. I am. >> Yeah, dog. It's crazy, dog. This shit's. wild. You can't I'm tell you, this. shit's so nuts, man. Like I I sit back. and trip out on it. Yeah. I sent the.

picture to your dude with my son rapping. in prison. There it is right there. >> Oh, he raps. >> Yeah, he raps. He's a badass rapper. Yeah. No, this is a crazy situation cuz. in prison it's real racy, you know. >> Yeah. >> And. >> I would imagine that. >> American Greed did a show on me. American Greed, you know. >> Oh, yeah. They did. >> Yeah. Episode 46, right? Early in the. American Greed days. And so me and my. son are in prison together watching. American Greed and they they played one. of his songs on TV. Right. So all the.

brothers heard him rapping and then they. do shows in prison like on on the. holidays. Yeah. You know that's how. Johnny Cash came in there and jam. So. >> Johnny Cash didn't come here but. >> they uh on July 4th the brothers were. doing a concert you know. Well like on. Fridays you know uh the brothers would. do stuff on. >> Yeah. There's like I think it's like a. red, white and black thing. >> Yeah. Just like that, right? And so they. came to him and they said, "Hey man, we. heard you on TV, man. Like rapping." Cuz. we were like prison celebrities in. there, right? Cuz we were on TV and then.

I was. >> And you were printing money. >> Yeah. We were Yeah. We were like the. coolest cats. I mean, >> so you guys were in prison together. >> Yeah. We were selling together. Yeah. >> No. What are you talking about? So you. and your son were then. >> that little boy 18 years old. It was. nuts. >> Yeah. Well, I tell you it was. >> You and him were cellmates for going to. jail for counterfeiting together. >> Yeah. So when I So after my dad died and. I get out, man, long story short, my my. son and me, we're not really getting. along, right? He's being tough kid. His. his mom can't take care of him because. she's a cop. She can't have that in.

her house. And uh and we connect through. music, you know, like he he was a real. good musician, you know? He love and he. was only like at that time like 13. And. so I knew Johnny K who who uh he had. Groove Sounds and he did like Disturbed, Fallout Boys. Those guys came out of. Chicago. It was his studio and that was. my dude. Okay. He's a producer. >> Big producer. Big time. You know, he did. Disturb Fallout Boy. >> Yeah. I don't know a lot of uh producers. in that area, but understood. >> Yeah. So, we we would hang out at his. studio. >> Okay. Got it. >> And then my boy's at this badass studio,

you know, and he's and he's and he's. they're letting him rap in there and. make beats in there and just do some. really cool And and and he had. talent. Johnny was like, "Hey, man. This. kid, you know, this is before there were. any other white rappers besides Eminem.". >> Got it. >> Right. And uh and so he made some song. He made four songs and then it started. getting expensive. My boy was like, "Hey, look it. Let's keep it going, but. you you got to throw me a little. something, right? Cuz that it's not like. now where you could have a home studio, you know, big boards." And so. >> that's what brought me back into. printing cuz I was like, "Okay, you know.

what? I'm going to make as much money as. I I'm going to do one big blast and I'm. going to help my son make it, you know.". And uh. >> Yeah. There's artists now that I think. their parents are helping them make it, I think. >> Oh, no. Yeah. Well, I knew a lot of. people. plus I was, you know, so it just. needed this the money, you know. So the. only way I knew how to do it was, you. know, at that point I was working out at. the at a shipyard and, you know, the. river rat running up and down the river. pushing barges and So I was I was. done with the working myself anyway, you. know. >> So you ready to try one more go at it?

>> I was ready. I was like, let's do it, you know. And then I got my. >> Did you convince him or he convinced. you? >> No. At first I didn't even let him know. It was on me, you know, like this was my. thing, you know. >> Oh, so you were going to make a money. You were going to make some money. anyway. >> Yeah. Yeah. I was already at that point, but this was a perfect reason to do it, too. >> Because he needed money for his career. >> Yeah. For his career. Yeah. So, anyway, now, but at this point, man, all the. technologies changed. They had scrapped. all the freaking presses, you know. They. had. >> What year is this? >> Uh, that was like 2003, 2000. Yeah.

About 2004. >> Okay. >> Cuz I went to prison in 200 end of 2005, 2006. Um, so, so but it was hard to get. the equipment and that now at this time. you got to hook up the internet to use. Photoshop. You can't just pop in the CD. anymore, you know. >> So I pretty much spent time hustling all. the equipment up and getting it ready to. go. And uh, me and my brother broke into. the paper place, you know. We actually. cut a We're probably the only idiots to. to break into a paper company, you know, like we cut a hole in the thing and.

we're like rope and. >> it was Oh, it was nuts, man. And what's. really nuts about it, the paper company. only closed one day a year. One day a. year. Guess what day that was? Christmas. Christmas. We watched. it. Yes. >> So on Christmas, you and your brother. broke into the paper company. >> Yeah. It was the best. We got on to it. We cut a hole in the ceiling in the in. the in the tin metal. It was on. Christmas. We blowed oursel down. We. actually got into a fight in there. because they had these big uh potato. sacks, right? And these these rolls were. massive, right? Like I had always got.

little butt rolls, right? you know, but. the real roll was massive and weighed. thousands of pounds and they were. stacked up real high. So me and my. brother had to we had to scale all the. way up to the thing and then we're. sitting here with our legs up in the air. and we're pushing the roll off the thing. and when it hit it cracked the concrete. and then me like a a madman when we get. down when you cut the roll it makes a. snap. Boom. Real loud, right? Because. that it's tight, you know. and and and I. was stuffing the potato sacks and I had.

about 10 10 big potato sacks stuffed, but I couldn't stop. I kept stuffing and. kept stuffing. And my brother grabbed. me. He's like, "Bro, WE GOT TO GO. WE. GOT ENOUGH. WE GOT ENOUGH TO MAKE 10. MILLION." And I'm like, "There's never. enough." Like, and then we're getting. into it. And finally, he's like, "Well, I'm leaving you here, man. I'm out of. here." Anyway, he waited for me. But we. we got all the paper. We had everything. ready. >> Damn. And then uh and then one day I had. just spoke. This is what was crazy. Now.

they're doing they just did a Rolling. Stone thing on me. I was in Rolling. Stone magazine. Right. >> So you were doing public speaking. >> I was doing public speaking. >> about being of counterfeit. >> Counterfeitter as I'm counterfeiting. This is what was so bizarre about it. >> It's addiction. Really? >> Addiction. Addiction. Couldn't stop. Well, they flew me out to Rochester, right? Document security systems. It was. a a a check company. Um, and so they. wanted me to speak at some conference. and I thought it was a corporate check. conference, right? I fly out there to. Rochester and and I got the same uh.

assistant that Frank Abigail had, right? Frank Abigail was the check guy from. Catch Me If You Can. Well, he had. retired and so they wanted me to step in. his place, right? So, >> so the security company was trying to. get you to come and work for them. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was a It was a check. security. They wanted me, you know, they. would send me product. >> ADP. What? know. >> it was a document security systems DSS. and they. >> and so but you're still doing crime at. this point. >> I am. Yeah. They don't know, right? >> They don't know. So you get there and. what happened? >> So I get there, man, and I'm sitting in. the hotel uh bar with the assistant and. I'm looking around. I'm like, man,

everyone in here looks like a cop, right? Like and and I ask her, I'm like, "Hey, isn't this uh like a corporate. check security thing?" She goes, "No, this is a Homeland Security conference. for for fraud." I'm like, "Well, what do. you mean? Like everyone in here is an. agent?" She's like, "Yeah, these are all. federal agents." I'm like, "What?" I. wanted to run out the door, man. I. couldn't believe it. I was like, "Oh, this can't be happening. This cannot be. real.". >> Do you speak at the conference? >> Yeah. Yeah. But it was not easy, though. I'll tell you what happened. So, >> so here it is. I don't even really drink.

much, man. Right. But I'm pounding. whisies, right? Like I'm pound I get to. the room. >> She [snorts] was worried about me. She's. like She's like, "You're going to be all. right." I'm like, "Yeah, man. I'm all. right." You know, >> I'm just glad if finally at some point. in the story that somebody was worried. about you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You know what I'm saying? Like we got to. have somebody be worried about us. >> Well, you know, I got I got people now. that love me, man. It's all good. It. always. >> for sure. But this is the first time I. heard you say that in all of this. >> Yeah. Yeah. No. Well, my mama always. did, but yeah, mama was always there.

>> But so anyway, so here I'm at the. conference and and I go up to the room. She wakes me up at like 6:00 in the. morning telling me what to not eat, what. to eat, what I could eat, you know, and. um we [clears throat] go. >> Was she worried about your diet for you. got to speak that day? >> Yeah, that morning I was first being. nervous. Yeah, she don't want me being. nervous. I was the first speaker. It was. at 8:00 in the morning, right? >> So, I I I go into the the the hall where. where it's all set up and I walk into. the front and uh I'm looking at who's. speaking. It was the guy that caught the. son of Sam was speaking that day, too, right? The serial killer. It was pretty.

cool, man, actually. >> But I'm like nervous. My stomach is just. ripped, man. Right. And [snorts] I'm. looking like at who's coming in and I'm. thinking to myself, "Oh, man. It's 8 in. the morning. They're not going to be. here. Maybe 10, 20, 15. Not too many. people are going to show up, so I'll be. all right. Yeah, it was it fit a. thousand people, right? Literally, man, I'm not kidding. Like, that hall stayed empty till like 2. minutes before 8. >> Yeah. >> I thought I won. There was only like.

just a few people and I'm like, "Oh, yeah. They're still sleeping. This is. their vacation. They're not going to be. getting up at 8 in the morning to watch. some counterfeit, right, man?" Bro, like. in a matter of like two minutes, man, it. started filling [snorts] up and the. whole place was packed. All agents damn. >> with their badges and and I start. sweating like I'm I'm sick. I don't know. if they I don't know if they know what. I've done back in Chicago, right? I. don't know. I'm I'm thinking, man, am I.

being set up? Do they know? Are they. playing games with me? Are they like my. brain was rattling, right? >> And uh and so she gives me some water. She sees me sweating. And I said, "Man, I got to go to the bathroom." So, they. hooked me up. They put the thing the mic. on me. I'm getting ready to go and I'm. I'm looking around. It's loud, you know, and everyone's sitting down and um and. the and the and the pres the president. the the guy that was presenting. everybody, he came up. He goes, "Hey, you all right?" He goes, "You know, let's test the mic and you know, we're. about I'm this is how I'm going to do. this. I'm going to say this and this and. I'm going to call you up." Okay. >> I'm like, "All right, cool." You know, I.

said, "Can I can I use the bathroom real. quick?". >> And uh she's like, "Yeah, it's right out. the door." So I I go out to the bathroom. and I and I just start throwing up. I'm. in the bathroom just throwing up. There. was a door that went outside. I kind of. stumbled out the bathroom. Went outside. and I'm talking to myself. I'm like, "What the is wrong with you? What. are you doing? You man like I'm. really like insane talking to myself. >> and they can hear you. >> and they heard me." She comes. out. She comes running out. She goes, "Dude, dude." She grabs the thing. She.

goes, "We're we're canceling this. you're not going to you're not speaking. And and I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, they they've listened to. everything you just said right now. >> I killed them all. Remember that guy? He's like, I killed I killed them all. Who was that guy? >> They heard everything. I was talking. about, "What the am I doing?" So I. said I said, "No, man. We're not going. to cancel this, man. We're not going to. cancel it." So I walked back in in. there. >> We're not going to cancel. >> Well, that's the problem with me. I'm. stubborn, dog. Right. Like that's the. reason I ended up making the money. I.

did. >> Robert Durst muttered, "Kill them all.". Of course, >> Mike. So, so I go back in there and it's. silence now and they're all staring at. me. You asked the first question you. asked me, "How's it feel when people are. staring at you and all that stuff you. were talking about?". >> Yeah. Like the moon. >> Yeah. Like the like the moon. Yeah. That's what I was going through, right? That's what it felt like. And And I They. walked me up to the front. The. presenter, he starts then he calls me. up. >> There's no way you got through it. >> Oh, listen to this. It was awesome, actually. I get [snorts] up there and I.

look and I freeze like I'm frozen for. sure. >> Like I can't move, dog. Right. And there. was a there was an older woman that had. this silver hair. I'll never forget her. She was about 15 rows in and she just. lipped it. Uh you're going to be all. right. I could I could read her lips. It. was weird. She goes, "You're going to be. all right." That's what she kept saying. like. >> and and then I then I just came out of. it. I said, you know, I'm I'm a little. froze right now. That's the first time. I've ever been in a room with this many.

agents. Usually I'm getting hauled off. to jail. And they all laughed. Okay. >> Right. And once they laughed, then I. just started like going in with. everything. And it was amazing. I ended. up speaking for like 45 minutes. I took. questions for like 30 minutes. They. ended up sitting me next They sit me at. the head table next to the Homeland. Security Secretary, right? And we were. joking about how he was making credit or. uh fake IDs when he was in high school. And so like it what turned what looked. to be terrible, right, turned [snorts].

out to be amazing, you know, >> but I had to go back to Chicago and I. was still printing money. I I was going. to anyway, but now I'm having second. thoughts. Like there was all kinds of. things going on when I was flying back. to the city. >> Okay? >> You know, like I I I was like, man, am I. really going to do this? You know, when. I actually got this opportunity right. here that maybe could actually take care. of me, you know, >> right? [snorts] And when I get home, you know, my son's being whatever and I. I do a few things and when I come back. to the house, he's printing money, 20s.

We get to he's with one of his friends. We get into it. He runs out. I run out. after him, you know. I'm trying to tell. him he don't have to do this and he. throws the money at me while while a cop. is passing by. >> Nuhuh. >> Yeah. Yeah. And the cop gets out. I'm. trying to pick the money up off the. ground. And the cop, I tell the cop my name and. right away, boom. And it was over, right? They called the secret, he. arrested me, called the Secret Service. Secret Service was toying with me. actually because they they were like,

you know, we know this is your son's. money and all this like we're not we're. not looking at you. But I had some I had. some of that old money that I got busted. with, you know, >> from that was buried and and I played. with it a little bit. >> and and and and it popped, right? and. they knew. And so they they pulled me in. and they said, "We we know we know what. you're doing. We know you got a whole. new off, you know, a whole new place and. you got paper and you got the ink and. you know, we got we're about to get you, man. You're going down for the rest of. your life." Like cuz cuz if you get.

busted with the presses and the files. and the plates and stuff, you're done. For sure. >> Yeah. You're done. Right. So what did. Well, what happened is they ended up. they ended up um. they said they knew where I was at. They. they took me in and and my boys let me. know what happened. I wasn't there, but. they literally had helicopters and SWAT. teams and they busted in my. space. >> Wow. >> But what happened though is three weeks. before that, >> the old man that owned the building, Rick Benny, he owns Rick Benny's. It's a. British shop. He's dead now, but.

>> he had sold it. It was an old warehouse, old dingy warehouse. And he had sold it. before before this happened. >> and told me that I had to get all my. out of there. So the Secret. Service, yeah, they knew that I was. there, but they didn't hit me. I don't. know why they waited. And so I ended up. moving everything out because he told me. to move everything. And then he had a. cleaner come in and clean everything. So. when they kicked in the door, there was. nothing in there. It was insane. Nothing. I wouldn't be sitting here. right now if if if there was. Yeah. They.

And they were messing with me. They're. like, "We got you now. We got you. We're. going in." And there was nothing. The. press was gone. The paper was gone. The. ink was gone. Everything was gone. It it. was it was so like blessed and cursed, bro. It's kind of like this perfect mix, bro. >> It's perfect mix, man. But. >> but did you have to um testify against. your son or anything like that? >> No. No, he didn't go to jail. >> So, how do you and your son end up in. jail together? >> So, after this happens, they kick in the. doors, whatever. I go ahead and take the.

beef, right? I got probably the shortest. paragraph federal indictment in history. Literally one paragraph, right? They. give me seven years, 105 months. I go. down. My son's left. He's 15. Well, he. kept doing it, right? He he he got he's. a smart kid, right? He's seen some of. the stuff. He gets the paper. He's like, he's getting everything. My brother's. still out there playing with him. So, him and my brother, whatever, right? And. I'm in prison and I'm gone for like. three years now. >> Were you able to help give him advice. and suggestions about it from prison?

>> No. [clears throat] No. We didn't really. talk much. You know, that was it. You. know, I didn't see him at all. I saw him. three years later. So what happens is I. get a call I I call home and my sister. says, "Hey, you need to call Karen.". The day my son turned 18, the Secret. Service went and arrested him. As soon. as he became an adult, they pretty much. let him play money man, >> right? Cuz there was like these charges. aren't that good if you're a kid. >> Yeah, you're a kid. Nothing's going to. happen. As soon as he hit 18, they. kicked he his stories. He he got a crazy.

story how they grabbed him, but he was. on the run a little bit and they grabbed. him finally. And so I call my sister. tells me what's going on. And uh and he. gets sentenced to I for I think it was. like 36 months. So now I'm already been. gone for three years. Now he's 18 and. they ship him to Forest City, Arkansas. I'm in Big Spring, Texas. Had a real. hole and I've been trying to get. out of there and they end up. transferring me from there to to Forest. City. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And it was crazy because when I.

got there, I knew he was I knew he was. there, right? >> So, as soon as I went through. processing, you go through all that. all day. As soon as I hit the hit the. dorm, some of the white guys came up to. me, hey, you know what's your name? I. told him, he's like, oh, your son's. here. And I'm like, yeah, I know. And I. need to see him as soon as I hit the. yard tomorrow. Right. They were like, "Shit, you don't have to wait till the. yard. Your son's in the dorm." I'm like, "What?" He's like, "Yeah, he's he's here. in this dorm. He's in TV room right. now.". >> Damn. >> I'm like, "What?" So, I haven't seen my.

son for three years, right? And I I I. belineed to the to the to the uh the TV. room. And when I opened up the the the. TV door, and he he was sitting right. there on the the front thing looking up. at the TV with his little headphones on. And when he seen me, man, he just he. just he got up and just ran straight to. me, man. I'm tearing up because my boy's. in prison. So, as happy as I am to see. him, >> I'm devastated inside that he's here.

>> that both y'all are there. >> Yeah. Just devastated. Well, I could. handle me. >> My life's been hell. I don't want him do. going through it, you know. >> And what this is what was cool, though, man. Here it is. Some of the hardest. cats, man, in this TV room and it's just. pure silence. M. >> and you see this guy crying over there. and this guy crying over there and that. guy crying over there. Like people were. thinking that their kids and they're. seeing me and my son just embracing I. just held them, man. >> Damn. >> And that's where I learned to become a. dad, man. The next two and a half years, man. I started I've been painting. I.

paint, you know, and so in prison, that's what I did. And then my son was. music. So he he was writing lyrics. And. so our plan was Yeah. That's me in. prison with one of my first pieces, you. know. And [snorts] so, so the the plan, the grandmaster plan was, you know, that. that he was going to do music and I was. going to do art, you know, and um and. so, you know, I I got out in 2013. I got. out a month before him. They let they. wouldn't let us out together. The the.

therapist, the counselor said, "We're. going to let you out first so you can. get yourself situated, then we're going. to let your son out.". >> Okay? And so when I got out, you know, I. just I I had an unbelievable. I had an unbelievable. um community around me, you know, like. when I got out, my attorneys were there, my friends were there, they got me a. job, they got me a place, they got me a. car. I had to go through my struggles. It wasn't easy, you know. >> And then my son got out. He ended up. getting his CDL and then he started. driving a trash truck. Now he's doing.

amazing. He's been out 13 years. We've. both been out 13 years now. He just. bought his first house out. Yeah, it's. amazing. He got just had a baby, you. know. He's doing amazing. He's writing. new music now. His music is freaking. awesome. Like, he's really getting down. on his music. And then me, you know, I I. I went through the art thing, you know. I first two years out, I I almost. actually went back to printing. He. busted me. He busted me with some with. some chemicals. And [snorts]. >> your son did? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, like two years after. this, after. >> he said, "This ain't it?".

>> Yeah. Well, it just like it was a bunch. of things like I I. you know, I I I just met someone was. about to have a baby, you know, and it. just felt like deja vu all again, right? >> Yeah. >> And so I ended up walking away from it. and um and I ended up one a big time cat. in Chicago, his name's Joe Catch. He own. he owns Lakeside Bank. He took me under. his wing. He said, "Look at man. I don't. want you to go back to prison, man. I. want to show you how to make it." You. know, >> and uh and damn, here it is 13 years. later, you know, and I've had five.

galleries. I've had unbelievable shows. from Rolls-Royce to Satai. I've got to. meet some of the most amazing people and. you know just life has been so. awesome man. >> A better community too. It just shows. you what a community do really. Like. >> what about um tell me about like when. you look at like crime and the effect. that it's had like on your family. overall. Like what do you think about. that? >> I mean for for me like. what what I what I what I because I've. mentored guys getting out of prison. I.

speak at schools. I spoke at schools, you know, to talk about how to overcome. stuff, whether it's mental illness, whether it's drugs, whether it's crime, right? Because crime is can be. addictive, too. And and. >> yeah, I'd never thought of it as an. addiction until I spoke with you about. it. And it almost seems like a familial. addiction, too. >> Yeah. They say it's worse than heroin. Counterfeiting. >> If you looked it up, I think it says. that counterfeiting is more addictive. than heroin, you know. >> Wow. Bring that up. >> Yeah. There's there's something saying. on it, you know, for me it's like it's.

so so I I I have a few cats that I've. kept in touch with that I was in prison. with. >> Yeah. >> But sadly almost, you know, 78% of. people go back. Small percentage of us. that make it out. There's even a smaller. percentage that make it into something. really big, >> you know. So what I've done with my art, with my life, and with, you know, is is. a is is very unusual, >> right? you know. >> Well, that part I get, >> but do you think what effect do you. think that crime had like on just like.

your like, you know what I'm saying? Cuz. you had it it's it's very wild that you. had this happen in your own father-son. relationship and then had it in the. second generation of it. >> Well, here's the thing. The the crime. crime actually it the streets, it's even. deeper than crime. It's the whole aspect. of the streets and the and the mental. illness with my mom. Those things I. think make make allow me they they've. taught me how to deal with now, right? Like like before what would. happen the reason I would always go back. to the crime is because the stress,

right, of of being able to survive, right? I need to eat. I need shoes. I. need to take care of my kid. Like people. have these stresses. Everyone does, right? Some people deal with it. differently, right? Me, I was trained. since crime from the the first time. breaking into the meters. I I was I the. training was to just like an animal to. hunt, >> right? You'd learned that. >> Yeah. I learned that. That's what that's. where Yeah. I don't blame you. >> Yeah. And and so. >> there there wasn't like I there wasn't. the guilt, there wasn't the shame, there. wasn't that part of it. But [snorts].

>> the crime and the streets and everything. I went through, it it's made me now like. aware like I see through a lot of things. that other people don't see. >> But looking back, do you think um Yeah. Do you have like was there any. situations that you caused like by. passing all that fake money? Like did it. like did it ruin some people's business. or anything like that? Did you have to. make any like amends with that sort of. situation? >> No. The the the the more of the amends. that I needed to make was with my my my.

son, you know, and and my kids and and. and the people that that relied on me. that that that I, you know, I wasn't. there for, right? Like even even when I. went back for seven years, you know, Natalie was still had the three babies. down in Austin, you know, and I didn't. even know I didn't even get to to meet. the the young one till like four years. later. >> Wow. >> And so the things that I regret are are. more family, you know? I I I.

didn't sell drugs and I wasn't into all. that other stuff, you know? So for me, the money was almost like, >> well, [snorts] they're doing it. you know? Like why can't I, you know? And and then I was always doing good. with it. So whether that was to justify. me doing it or not, I just I I didn't. ever feel that guilt for it, you know. And um. >> did anyone ever come to you and say, "Hey, you passed this much fake money. with me and this was a problem.". >> No, no, no, no. I've had people come to. you and say, "Hey, man, I got one of. your bills and I loved it." Right? Like. people even even now there's a couple. people in the city that had had some of.

them that actually framed them. >> Are they still in circulation? >> No. I don't know. Maybe. You know, the. money was good. Do you if you even have. one, will you send it to me so I can. have one? >> I will. You will? >> Yeah, I will. Yeah, I actually brought. you one. >> No, you did not. >> No, I brought you a hundred, but not one. of them. I brought you something, though. No, I mean it was it was it was. a wild time, man. You know, and then. like. >> Oh, yeah. Here we go. Yes. Counterfeiting money can become a. psychological or behavioral addiction. While it's not classified as a substance. addiction, criminologists and. psychologists recognize that the process. of committing highstakes financial fraud.

can trigger the exact same neurological. reward pathways as gambling, stealing, or substance abuse. Uh, the high of. counterfeiting comes from the. combination of chemical rush of the. crime, the artistic obsession, and the. illusion of ultimate control. Dang, bro. That sounds like some I would love. to do, but I just wasn't brave enough, you know? I did that nose crime, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Cocaine that. Yeah. No, the money, man. Like, even now, so. when I I I I print sheets of money right.

now, like, >> but it's for work, right? It's for your. art. >> Yeah. It's canvas and I paint over it. But I still get that same when when I. see that sheet coming out and I could do. it legal. >> Like, it just warms my I just get like. all giddy, man. Seems. >> Do you think that people should be. allowed to counterfeit money? >> No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. >> Well, because money is just like a so. it's like a kind of a social construct. that we have. It's like this, you know. Well, see the thing about money, you. know, like my my my my things were I. think we should be allowed to keep more. of it. So So I think that we're taxed. too much, right?

>> I agree. >> You're taxed on what you do. You're. taxed on what you buy. You're taxed on. your car. You're taxed on this. Like. before the 1900s, there was no tax, right? And and so like there like even. me, I love to barter. I barter a lot, man. I trade paintings for cars, for. this, for that. I love to barter, right? >> So So like is should people be allowed. to print? No. Neither should have I, man. And it was wrong. You know, >> these days it's like our government is. just printing money. They're just. siphoning money out. Like they give. they're giving money away to these. different like um um.

>> Well, I think they gave up. I think they. gave up. I think I think that they g. they they knew that this thing is going. to collapse. >> The society, you mean? >> Well, the the financial system that they. set up, it's 40 trillion to hold, man. Like, you can't there's no way to get. out of it. Impossible, right? And they. know that. And so, like, for me, I look. at it and I analyze it. Like, I think. they gave up already. There's going to. have to be a reset. There's going to. have to be some sort of and that's what. that the the digital dollar is going to. be, right? It's going to be a reset. I. just hate that it's going to be. programmable, right? That's what they. need to get rid of.

>> Like what do you mean when you say that? >> Well, if you look it up, digital. currency, have them look it up and pro. it's all programmable, which means they. could say, "Hey, you can't buy gas on. Tuesdays." And guess what? Your card. will not work on Tuesdays. So, it's. programmable. They could give it. direction. >> But if they have certain coins, they. are, but Bitcoin isn't necessarily. programmable, right? >> Bitcoin ain't. the US the the US uh the. digital dollar will be right. >> Okay, got it. A US digital dollar is a. proposed central bank digital currency. that would be issued and backed directly. by the Federal Reserve as a digital form.

of physical cash. >> governmentbacked unlike decentralized. cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin or private. stable coins. Um a CBDC the central bank. digital currency uh would be official. legal tender backed by the US. government. It would represent a direct. digital liability of the Federal Reserve. available to the general public. Wow. >> Ask if it's programmable. They don't. want to tell you that part. Just put in. there, is it programmable? Cuz this for sure is. And that's the.

thing that people need to be asking. questions about. >> Is it programmable? Whether a US digital. dollar would be programmable is one of. the most heavily debated aspects of its. potential design. And the Federal. Reserve has explicitly stated it would. oppose making it programmable. >> for retail users. >> For retail users. So what are you saying. that means? So what happens is that the. the just like they got these cars coming. out where they could turn them off, right? >> They'll be able to turn your money off. really easy, like easier than we it's. ever been in human history. So. throughout human history, it started.

with bartering and then coins and then. paper. Right. The the human has always. had the ability to trade something for. something. Right. Right. And you can do. it in a private setting or a public. setting. Right. With this, there will be no more private. ever. That's gone. And some people say, well, if you're not doing anything. wrong, but what happens is. >> is you can see through time that laws. change where you thought it wasn't wrong. this day is now wrong this day. Right. And that's where this gets dangerous.

because. >> like explain that to me a little bit. better. What do you think? >> It's kind of like the uh the truckers. that were in Canada that were protesting. and then the Canadian government turned. their accounts off. >> Got it. >> Right. I'm sure you remember that, right? Well, it's just like Kanye West. when he was like speaking out against um. >> I don't know exactly what it was, but I. don't if it was like Jewish people or. just some things he said or things about. the record industry at some point they. cut off some of his. >> Oh, yeah. Debbank you and all. >> Yeah, they debanked him. Yeah. This they. won't have to debank you. They'll just. turn it off. >> It's just programmable. AI kind of the. same, right? AI is not being too honest.

right now about this because it's saying. it possibly because these cats here, they they don't tell you the truth all. the time and and but there's the the. engineers, believe me, they're putting. the programmables in the in the in the. in the the digital dollar, right? >> Would the digital dollar then u be. counterfeitable or No, >> it's a good question. We could try. We. could try, man. I would love to try it. >> We can't use paint on this, though. >> No, we just have to figure out how to. break into the system. But no, I mean. this here's the thing. I I hope that.

you'll have the states that uh that pass. like Florida's passed laws uh where you. can't refuse cash, you know, but I you. know there in other countries they're. already you see all these kids are. raised on their phone paying with their. phone. >> Yeah. >> Right. That's crazy to me. Like I see. that and I'm like man I don't even like. to have my phone on me. >> Right. and you're letting it like do. everything for you from your money to. your life to your social media to your. dating to. >> Yeah, we just got Well, we've just.

gotten so addicted. We've gotten so used. to it. I think it's hard to separate. that. And I think a lot of people don't. realize um the depth of the. surveillance, you know. >> Well, now they got flock cameras going. up. they got, you know, they I mean it's. it's getting really interesting, you. know, and and you know, for me, because. I was a ghost, I I pay attention to that. stuff real carefully, you know, not cuz. I'm doing anything wrong. It's because I. want to be free. Yeah. >> Right. At the end of the day, you know, this this is what I look at this. country, you know, like I love this.

country. I've been on every road that. there is probably, right? I've been in. so many towns in this country, man. And. I've watched the middle middle the. middle part of the country just. disappear, right? where where where. there was a time where I would drive. through a town and and it looked a. little bit alive and then five years. later drove through it and it had. boarded up windows and everything. Right. >> We've seen the same. I mean, even. [clears throat] Yeah. Oh, it's. heartbreaking, you know? >> Well, it's just like Yeah, it feels like. our government has just sold everything. out that was good from here. It's like. they've let it like just let it be. siphoned out. >> Yeah. I think they gave up. I think they.

gave up. I think. >> Did I Did they give up or were they I. mean, it seems a lot more like they were. um. >> Well, they were siphoning it. Now they. gave up. right now. They're looking. like, "Oh, just let's get what we can.". It's going to it's going to get reset. >> The digital dollar divide right here. It. says, um, "The anti-CBDC act would bar. the Federal Reserve from issuing, piloting, or implementing any digital. currency designed for general public. use." The bill's supporters, led by. Representatives Tom Emmer, French Hill,

uh, >> well, this is awesome that they're. filing a bill for this. This is the. first site risks of government. surveillance and programmable money. pointing to China's digital yuan as a. cautionary example of state control over. individual financial behavior. Banking. industry groups argue that retail CBDC's. would enable consumers to bypass. commercial banks entirely, potentially. destabilizing credit intermediation. I. >> So China already does it. They do the. programmable. Right. >> Right. But if that becomes here, then.

it's like, yeah, if you didn't spend. your money appropriately, it would just. be cut off. Or also, >> yeah, no more buying cocaine, >> right? Which is good for me. Which is. good for me. But but also, if you. >> if you spend a money where they don't. they don't like it or you're paying for. a service that they don't like, they. could cut your money off. If it's. something that they deem that isn't. right, or if you're um. >> even paying to see, say you're paying to. see a speaker that says things that the. government doesn't like. >> Oh, yeah. They could they could cut your. money off.

>> Yeah. It's terrible, man. It's terrible. >> That's super scary. >> Yeah. No, there it's you know like but. you know my hope is is like you know. well the good thing is I'm learning how. to create currency with my art, right? Like so so now that I'm an artist, you. know, like I it it's been 13 years, 10. years professional artist. You know, the. first time it you know that I got into. the industry was when I met Arnold. Schwarzenegger. I got to go out to his. house and have a show. Sold a bunch of. art and. Wow. >> Oh, it was badass, man. I mean, here I.

am two years out of prison. ain't. working. Can't get nothing going. You. know, the catch there, me is Arnold. right there. And um here it is. I feel. like I'm about to go back to printing. Catch Tori kind of, you know, scoops me. in. I work for him a little while. And. then [snorts]. I end up going to Florida. >> I remember you telling me about some of. this and being in a show. >> Yeah, I was in a show. Well, before we. get into something else, let me just I. want to go a little bit further about. like because like Bitcoin is. like.

because say something is a money, right? It's just because we all agree that. money has value, right? Like if tomorrow. everybody just agreed it didn't have. value, then it wouldn't. >> It wouldn't. And and that goes for a lot. of things like e and I and I I I I. reference art because like really what. does how do I sell a painting for 10. grand that I sold for a,000 5 years ago. >> Right. >> Right. How do I do that? How do I make. it valuable? Right. And it's the same. thing with paper and actually in the in. the old money, the 1800s money, it looks.

like little pieces of art. And the. reason they did that is because them. old-timers didn't want to give up their. gold, right? So they had to make the the. paper look valuable, >> right? So, if you look at look at this. money, man. Some of this stuff is. beautiful, right? Look at look at the. educational series, the 1896 educational. series. I mean, that thing is is is is. just unbelievable. And and so they had. they had to to make this stuff look. valuable. And then they made gold. illegal, right? To get the old-timers to. get give up the gold. Like, look at this. stuff. That's a $5 bill. You see that?

That's nobody's seen no $5 bill like. that. >> Look how beautiful that is. It looks. like a piece of art. Yeah. >> Right. So they they it's it's all about. really kind of trickery a little bit a. little scop right you you you you you. give the and then the way they created. the system right the system for us. really kicked in after World War II. right that's when they really created. the financial structure right how how. America would loan money to different. countries and then they would buy goods. and then it would create this system. right.

>> but what happened is they just dug too. deep into it right I mean it could have. been a unbelievable system. >> right but then people started. manipulating. certain countries there's sort of this I. mean we just had a guy on who was. talking about uh secret societies that. manipulate things. to like we have immigrants that are. going from here because we caused. starvation here or we stopped a we we. put a like a fuel uh uh embargo here and. so now this country is going to behave. like this and so it's like and they're.

all betting on that at a higher level. I. want to I want to get this point out. there. Franklin uh President Franklin. Roosevelt signed Executive Order 6102 on. April 5th, 1933, which largely outlawed. the private ownership of gold coin, bullion, and certificates in the United. States. The Great Depression, widespread. bank failures caused citizens to hoard. gold, shrinking the circulating money. supply. So, >> but then when they bought it back, sorry. to interrupt you, but when they bought. it back from them, I know that they.

bought it, >> they made everybody kind of give their. gold and then they sold it back to them. at a cheaper uh at a cheaper rate. >> Yeah. >> Let me see that. Americans had to turn. in their gold to a Federal Reserve bank. by May 1st, 1933. >> The government paid citizens 20.67 per. troy ounce of gold. Um, >> yeah. 10 years in prison if you didn't. do it. >> Yeah. Is that what it says? violations. Violations carry penalties of up to a. $10,000 fine or 10 years in prison. And. then in January 1934, FDR raised the.

official price of gold to $35 per ounce, increasing the treasury's value and. deval. >> Wow. >> And devaluing the dollar. >> So they gave 20 and then raises 35. I. mean, money like even like I look at how. they change like when they changed the. bill to the new purple thing. >> Mh. like that that really was. fascinating to me that I I was able to. create something that caused them to. change the whole system, you know. >> Are you sure that that was the cause? >> Oh, yeah. I mean, it it Yeah, they need.

the paper, you know. The paper they. there was too many people doing it, you. know. They had to they had to fix it. They had to fix it, you know. But, you. [snorts] know, and and and soon, you. know, like like you I I I look at my art. kind of like historic art because soon. there won't be currency. Soon there. won't be paper currency, you know? Right. Right. And. >> so for me, it's almost like I'm I'm. preserving history through my pieces. >> that every piece I make that it's it's. going to be historical. It's all. >> because a lot of it's printed on actual. money. >> Oh, yeah. The canvas. Yeah. I print. Yeah. I love to print. Yeah. Maybe one.

time you're in town, I I'll print with. you. There you go. There's a sheet of. money, >> bro. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'll give you one next. I. I'll give you a little one, dog. Yeah. But I paint right over it, man. I love. it. You know, look at that. Now, this. sheet almost. >> Dang, that's just popping. >> Oh, no. It's awesome, man. And I love. it. Yeah. So, so I still get to print, you know, like it's just it's just. awesome that I get to do it. But, you. know, soon soon currency will be gone, you know, and. >> it'll be digital and it's going to be an. interesting time in humanity. Like, big.

time. Like, it's going to get it's going. to get like I get more nervous about. that than AI. I think AI is kind of a. little bit of hoaxy because the. don't really work well, you know? >> Yeah, I agree. The shit's capped. >> The data centers are for the robots. I'm. tell they're making that for the. robots. Oh, the data center is just I. think it's to store a lot of information. from all the surveillance information. When you think about. >> activating surveillance and how they're. what they're going to need. I think. there's a lot of I think there's a lot. of future stuff that's going to be super. scary and I don't know if we're ready. for it, but we don't have a choice but.

to go into it. It doesn't look like. because it doesn't look like anything is. going to save us. Or you can move to a. country that doesn't have it, you know, >> or like you bringing it to people so. they understand it so we could go into. it the right way, right? I it really is. about just information like ju teaching. the people the things where they can. make a choice to make this world better, right? Like and that's what's awesome. about podcasts now because you guys get. to actually inform people about things. that are happening so that maybe it. could change like to have hope. I want. to have hope that even if they change. the money, even if they have.

surveillance that somehow humans will. find a way to thrive. Yeah. Right. And. >> we need a he we need like a new male. gifts. We need a new patriot, you know. >> New patriot. Yeah. We need We need a new. patron. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Art Williams, you have your studio now. People can find it. >> It's Chicago. Yeah. I got Julius da. Vinci.com. I got uh. >> Julius ddainci.com. >> Yeah. And then I got artjwills Jr..com. My name. And then I got a gallery in. Chicago on Clark and Diversity and uh. just started showing other artists which.

is kind of cool cuz. >> Oh, that's cool stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah. I like to go see art. >> Yeah. You got to come to the gallery, man. You know, you you'll dig it. I got. I got a printing press there. Do you? >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I got a pretty price. there. Um, and uh. >> Oh, one thing I wanted to go into real. quick. What are the top Can you look up. Trevan? What are the top things that can. be counterfeited? >> Clothes, bags. >> Okay. >> Um, >> uh, medications are a big thing. >> The 10 most counterfeited products in. the world. Let's see them. Uh, food. products. >> Food. Oh, that's 10. think that food.

products and well-known brands of food. could be counterfeited, but that is. increasingly the case, especially as. food prices around the world continue to. rise and companies. >> Yeah, it's an interesting one, huh? >> And companies charge a premium for their. brands, whether it be coffee, chocolate, or fruit. For example, in Canada, the. most popular and profitable coffee store. chain is named Tim Hortons after a. hockey player. However, in South Korea, people are sold Tim Morton's coffee, which is a blatant knockoff of the. popular Canadian caffeine product. Huh. >> Designer labels, tags, that's pretty. obvious. Computers.

>> Computers. I wouldn't have thought that, but I guess it makes sense because you. do hear people like on Facebook. Marketplace and stuff like I went to buy. this computer and it was cap. >> Yeah. >> Uh pharmaceutical drugs. >> Movies still. >> Fake pills. Oh, movies. Yeah. Like in. third world countries. >> Uh sneakers and shoes. That makes sense. Smartphones. >> Jewelry. >> Jewelry and accessories. >> Money is not even on there. >> Watches for sure. Handbags, purses, wallets. >> No money. >> No money. Man, I got I got to get money.

on there. [laughter]. >> Yeah. Hey. >> Yeah. Figure out the digital. >> You'll figure it out. >> Oh, no. I'm done. I'm retired, man. >> Look, um Art Williams, man. Thanks so. much, dude, for hanging out. Thanks so. much for just telling us about your. story. Congrats on I mean, in the end, you were kind of just an artist, man. >> Yeah. Really? >> You know, and not just an artist, but. Yeah. It's like. >> an artist that went through some. that just, you know, >> Yeah. If you're an artist and you're. locked and you're stuck in like criminal. type then of course you're going. to start your art in criminal type. And these days, dude, everybody should. be able to make their own money.

You know what I'm saying? If the. government's just printing that and. just handing it out. >> Yeah, we could give classes. >> Yeah, [laughter] dude. It might not be a. bad idea. >> Chris Theo making money classes, man. >> TBD, man. And you have a book. I don't. want to forget the last counterfeitter. Um, Art, man. Thank you so much, dude. >> Yeah, I appreciate this, man. It's been. awesome, brother. >> Yeah, I appreciate it. Tell Penelli I. said what's up. Yeah, I will. Yeah. [music].

Corner stone. Oh, but when I reach that [music]. ground, I'll share this piece of mind I. found. I can feel it in my bones. But it's going to take.