Dr. Jordan Peterson | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #328

today's episode is brought to you by. magic mind the anti-procrastination. sipper if you want that small upper. you can get it go to magicmind.co. and use code theo magic for 20. off today's guest um. is his second time returning to the. podcast he has a new book out. beyond order 12 more rules.

for life i am uh i'm almost to rule. number four. right now and um and man he's just uh. you know i'm gracious for his time you. know i'm honored to be able to talk to a. thinking man this man is a real thinker. and. and an order and sometimes i can think. and sometimes i can talk but. rarely can i do both uh he's a professor. he's high level. in so many fields he's a. best-selling author sold over 5 million.

copies. of his first book 12 rules for life. um ladies and gentlemen mr. jordan peterson. [Music]. [Music]. i'll sit and tell you my story.

[Music]. [Applause]. just. dr peterson great to see you again hi. theo it's really good to see you too. it's been a while a long while. yeah it has been a while thank you uh. for the new rules i gotta ask you how. many. how many more rules are there overall. because it's starting to add up.

well originally there was a list of 42. i published that on quora i've heard. that. yes and so in principle there's 18 more. but of course you know there's an. infinite number of necessary rules. um i don't think i'll publish any more. rule books however. uh yeah i'm just letting you know as a. as someone who's trying to abide by the. rules we're. doing our best out here and we're glad. that there's more but it's also it's a. lot it's a lot to do you know it's a lot.

yeah yeah well and and you can only beat. the same horse so many times. yeah i don't think that's actually a. saying but now i've invented it. well i've seen so i grew up in some. areas they had a little bit of mild. animal cruelty by us growing up nothing. real heavy but you know uh. probably i'm glad some of it wasn't. documented at the time actually. um so i i tried to get as far as i could. in into a beyond order into the new book.

and um and it's just you know it's hard. there's a lot of like. you have to you have to take your time. and you have to really absorb as you go. and um there was one part there's a lot. of parts that stuck out for me but. so far there's a part in uh chapter. three. um where you talk about fear and you. talk about the fog. and um and i i wrote down a sentence. that says that sometimes you're so. afraid. that you will not allow yourself to even.

know what you want. uh i think that's very common it really. hit me hard because. sometimes i you know i admit i'm afraid. to like. i'm afraid to even map out even to. really write down and map. out what i want um but i don't know. exactly i tried to really drop down and. figure out what the fear was like why am. i afraid like. and and i had some i've had some trouble. really figuring that out like. am i afraid that i'll have to then do it.

am i afraid that i'll then. feel inadequate based upon what i really. want and where i currently. am um so i just wanted to. you to maybe expound on that a little. bit and and just kind of share like. what did you think why do i get afraid. to to really. admit even admit to myself what i really. want. well i think you put your finger on two. um of the fundamental reasons. um if you don't allow yourself to know.

what you want then you haven't. established. your conditions for failure right i mean. if you. if you're aiming at a goal and. the goal is really clear then. you can sorry i lost you. oh you did yes. just visually or can you still hear me i. i can hear you just okay there we go. sorry about that. no worries okay you're better than just.

being still too someone might get a. little no it was it was. absolute blood pressure minimized okay. let's forget about that we can go back. to this. okay um if you know what you want. then you know when you're failing. if you don't allow yourself to know what. you want you can keep that foggy. if you don't set out the conditions for. your success then you can avoid your. responsibility because. again that's not clear and the problem. with wanting something is that in all. probability you're going to have to work. for it you're going to have to make.

sacrifices and. it's certainly possible that you want to. avoid that. you you might be afraid to make it clear. because. other people could deny it to you too. which is something i write about a fair. bit in that chapter. um the problem is and and. failing to make any of that clear. protects you right now. but it's really hard on you over the. medium to long term. because if you don't make it clear to. yourself what you want.

or to other people the probability that. you're just going to stumble into it is. pretty low. and and you can put that off. indefinitely day after day but. the problem with that is that you age. while you're doing that and. there's obviously a price to be paid for. that. so that chapter that's chapter three do. not hide things in the fog. [Music]. i mean it's a it's a warning about. failing to pay attention. you know knowledge emerges in a very.

strange way it it emerges. obviously when we learn something we. started out by not knowing it and so. what that means is that knowledge goes. through a transformation process from. being. absolutely not there to being explicit. and fully. detailed and one step of that process is. emotion. and so for example you might find. yourself frustrated disappointed. about the events of the day but be. unable to exactly specify.

why that's extremely common you know you. go home to your partner and. you be in a bad mood and you know you'll. snap at them for something and they'll. say well what's up with you and. you'll say well nothing you're just. being annoying when it's perfectly clear. to both of you that there is actually. something up with. you and then that disappointment and. frustration. anger and sadness let's say or anxiety. is a sign that something isn't right. but it isn't like it isn't necessarily. that you're repressing knowledge of. what's not right it's that you just.

you actually don't know and the emotion. is the first. step in the process by which that. knowledge emerges. and you might have to sit and think and. talk. to your partner to a friend for god only. knows how long before you're actually. going to put your finger on. what it is that you're upset about and. it could be. very far removed from whatever happened. to trigger you in the moment. and so that's the fog and you can keep. things in the fog just by.

not doing that it's really easy it's no. dif more difficult than just sitting. there doing nothing. because creating knowledge is active and. difficult. yeah well it's you know we've crea and. we've created. such a perfect fog these days like. really the fog has been. it's become such a the fog is such a. business every little thing that they. can. that can be created to take away your. attention. from uh or that can take away our.

attention from figuring out who we are. or like kind of spelunking inside of. ourselves and trying to get some answers. um has really been created it's almost. it's pretty masterful how much has been. created. out here on the outside to keep our. attention um. away from delving inside of ourselves. well you know. attention is the basic currency right. everyone. fights for it and it's incredibly. valuable. and it it certainly is the case that. it's also very tempting to turn your.

attention to. things that grasp your short-term. interest. rather than say pursuing the causes of. negative emotion that's a. that's a good example and of course we. have massive corporations working night. and day to. continually attract our attention and. there's something sinister about that. obviously but but you can't exactly lay. responsibility at their feet because. there isn't that there's a tremendous.

overlap between. educating people informing them and. and making them attend to you and and. the lines between all of those things. are very foggy let's say and difficult. to. lay out it's certainly the case that one. of the ways that you can keep yourself. in a fog. about yourself is by distracting. is through distraction with external uh. with anything in the external world and. obviously computer technology cell.

phones games. well not negative in and of themselves. perhaps. are there at any moment to distract you. at any moment yeah those. yeah the little things that are time. consumers like it's yeah there's. companies there are businesses where. that. is their that's their that's their. business is to get your attention. everything's trying to get our attention. sometimes i worry. that the forces that are out there that. have like started to. you know really create algorithms even.

on how to get our attention and how to. keep it. that those forces are stronger than. our human abilities to to keep them away. from us. do you feel like that that's true or do. you feel like that that's just. i really do believe that that's true i. look. as far as i can tell we are teaching. computers to. to read our minds as fast as we possibly. can. and they're way better at it than they. were 10 years ago and they're going to.

be so much better at it in five years. that we won't even be able to imagine it. and. when i say read our minds i'm not. talking about something. magical but oh yeah for example not. talking about like guess what. it's not like like they're gonna guess. what we're thinking or guess what we. want for dinner or anything like that. probably. well they might but they won't do it by. directly reading our brain waves or. anything like that. um they'll they're already algorithms. that target advertisements to send that.

you are pretty good at. deciding what it is that you're. motivated to pursue and. now i heard i actually just got an ad on. my phone for your new book actually so. yeah oh well good so i'm involved in the. same process the same nefarious process. i'll just joke that that i think it's. facebook. but i might be wrong about this that. owns oculus. and the headset the vr headset company. now. you can you can track eye movements. with uh vr headset and psychologists.

use the tracking of eye movements to map. attention in high detail now look. if you look at our eyes you see that. there's a colored circle and a dark. circle in the middle and then that's. surrounded by. white and that makes your eye very. visible. to other people animals too but to other. people particularly. human eyes are quite unique in that. regard and. it looks like we've evolved to have. highly visible eyes.

and the reason for that is that other we. communicate. with other people and they can read our. motivations by watching our eyes. so if you stand in the corner and you. look up. at nothing in the sky and you stand. there long enough. someone else will join you and then if. there's two people then they'll be ten. right away and the reason for that is. that. we and this is again something uniquely. human. we attend to where other people point. their eyes.

assuming that if they're interested in. we might be interested in it too. and so that's and human beings are. visual animals about half our brain is. is taken up with visual processing we're. much more visual than virtually any. other animal. and so computers are soon going to be. able to track where we place our eyes. which of course advertisers are. incredibly interested in. and that's going to speed up the ability. of. of high-powered computational devices to. understand. human beings as a group but also each of.

us individually to an immense degree. an immense degree and so and i. i think we're probably 10 years away. from computers that understand us better. than we understand ourselves. ai machines are going to get extremely. good at this because it's so. lucrative to to be able to gauge. attention there's there's nothing that's. more valuable than that. and so do you feel like it sh do you. feel like. there should be le it's hard to say.

there should be legislation because. i hate to put anything on the uh you. know that the gov it's the government's. responsibility. but should there be like rules or. legislation. between allowing computers and ai to get. that advanced or is it still just fall. on the. feet of us as humans just to battle kind. of the dark arts of. of of these machines that can sort of. like take us into a trance and then.

monetize the trance at the same time. i think i think that legislation in some. sense is. it's going to be playing catch-up and. it's going to be farther and farther. behind all the time. because this is moving so fast and with. such power. and it's so distributed that no one is. going to be able to. even keep track of it much less. regulated i mean. the the the the interconnected. environment is. changing so rapidly that even if you're.

reasonably. tech savvy you can't keep up with all. the major changes. and there's there's no evidence. whatsoever that that's going to do. anything but accelerate. and so i can't see how legislators have. the ghost of a chance at keeping up. with this even if they knew what to. target or what to legislate. yeah and you know more and more. engineers are i think china now. graduates more engineers every year than. the united states has. engineers oh yeah china you could be.

eight years old in china and be a damn. engineer i've been over there and i've. seen it. but i've seen a six-year-old build a. damn bridge in front of me you know what. i'm saying they. they're highly capable yes well and lots. of other. cultures are coming online very rapidly. and so. we're well and there's no shortage of. unbelievably proficient amateurs online. as well and. and and programming and and so. we ain't seen nothing yet and i really. do believe computers are gonna. your computer is gonna understand you so.

well i think it. it won't be long till it knows what. you're going to do. more accurately than you do i think. that's already true to some degree. but well then we're at a real loss. because then if i've been afraid to make. a plan for myself in my life. and i've been afraid and i've been. living in the fog and i've been just. you know kind of sidestepping. really putting my [ __ ] pants on as a. human. and taking some action if i'm in that.

fog. and then the computer is able to figure. out what i'm gonna do. before i've even done it but i haven't. even made a plan then surely the. computer's going to make a plan for me. it feels like. i think the computer is making a plan. for you all the time already. by default look that's exactly what. advertising is. is advertising makes a plan for you it's. there's no difference between those two. things except maybe one of. sophistication. so you know i mean when you're watching. something and an ad pops up.

that's a little world that you could. visit and. the advertiser obviously wants you to. visit that and the the problem there. because you might think well it would be. really good the computer can help you. make a plan but i think what's more. likely to happen. because at least to begin with the. computer is going to be paid so to speak. by the advertisers to. capitalize on your short-term. impulsivity is that. ever more attractive distractions are. going to be. dangled in front of you and that's.

and that that's likely to keep you in. the fog. and and what can i do to battle the fog. like what can i do. you know as a human to retain. my humanity as things get. more tech and more. and and as tech becomes far smarter. in some ways you know in in technical. ways than i'll ever be. well you know i wish i knew the answer. to that.

uh i don't partly because. the the landscape that's unfolding in. front of us. because it changes so rapidly it's. unpredictable um. you know other rules in in my two books. address that to some degree i think. your your best bet the best bet you have. virtually all the time is to try. not to lie to yourself in in my first. book. um 12 rules for life i said do not lie. or. no i said the rule was tell the truth or.

at least do not lie. because you know you might i mean. can you tell the truth you'd have to. know the truth you know you might be. able to tell some partial truths. but you can't tell the truth but you can. not say things that you know to be false. and. in the second book the new one rule five. is. do not do things that you hate which is. also a kind of lie. and and i don't mean um don't do. difficult things like get out of bed at.

six in the morning and exercise you know. you might say well i hate going to the. gym and. that isn't what i you don't really hate. going to the gym you just find it. difficult um. i'm thinking more that you might observe. yourself engaging in activities. that you find despicable even right then. but certainly later when your conscience. dwells on them and. that you should stop doing that because. that's a form of behavioral lie. i think the only thing we have to orient. ourselves is.

as individuals is our willingness to. to live to live a life that's relatively. free of. of unnecessary deceit or of deceit at. all. the 11th rule is do not allow yourself. to become deceitful resentful or. arrogant i might have those. out of order but it's concentrating on. the same. sort of idea you know it's partly. here's another way of looking at it your. your attention moves around for reasons.

that you don't quite understand. those reasons are unconscious um. you can tell that to some degree because. you can't make yourself pay attention to. something that you. aren't interested in well you can but. you really have to work at it you know. it's really easy to. pay attention to something you're. interested in. that's not difficult at all in fact it's. enjoyable whereas. paying attention to something that. you're not interested in requires will. and effort. and and so you can see that there's.

unconscious mechanisms at work there. because you can't control. them now the danger to deceit. is that you'll pathologize those. unconscious mechanisms. because as you practice something. imagine you practice a particular form. of untruth you tell yourself a story. that you know to be false. and that becomes your habitual way of. looking at the world. well what that means is that you're. forming habits that are unconscious. because habits become unconscious. and then they skew the way the world.

appears to you it'll. it'll pull your interest in places that. that aren't good for you to go that. aren't associated with. the real world and so that's not to be. wished for that's because you. you don't want to be out of sync with. your automatic self that's. that's bad news and lying definitely. does that especially if it's habitual. so because it creates whatever is truth.

well it creates a false truth and a. false you. right you know because there's different. kinds of memory there's the memory. that's associated with. the way the world is and that's called. episodic memory. and then there's another or declare or. declarative memory there's another kind. of memory. that's memory for action and so. that's what you use when you play tennis. or ride a bike or play the piano. you know how to move your hands and you. move your body and. that's a kind of a kind of memory as.

well and. you don't want to pathologize either of. those. um because then you become you see once. once the deceit has become habitual then. you're it's victim you're its pawn. because it's automatic and that's a. that's a terrible. fate you don't want that you don't you. really don't want that. i think your best defense against. anything that's trying to. hijack your attention is is something. like honesty. it's also very useful and i stress this.

quite a bit in this second book. to surround yourself with people who. want the best for you and who care for. you because they can also help. keep you on the straight and narrow path. and you know that's not a matter of some. trivial. moral injunction it's there's terrible. places you can end up. oh yeah oh yes i've been to some of. those places and it's. yeah and you don't get any sleep when. you're there either i'll tell you that. um right right another indication that.

your unconscious mind is. is not working properly at some point. right because the sleep wake cycle gets. gets uh dysregulated that's very. unpleasant to say the least. dr peterson so when i so getting back. like to the fog and like. and like and just the the things that. can take away our attention and how. valuable our attention is. what can i do like to kind of. are we going to start to see like new. parts of like new. like small societies form of people that.

don't want to be influenced by. technology. or you know what do you what do you feel. like. some of the future looks like as far as. trying to retain. some sense of of holding on to. my attention and using it for myself. as opposed to letting it be used by. outside influences. does that make any sense or not yes yes. well. look there's another rule i suppose a.

dictum perhaps. that if you don't have your own story. then you're going to be a bit player in. someone else's story. okay so let's talk about that fog again. so. let's say because of the reasons you. already laid out. you don't want to make your conditions. for failure conscious because then you. know when you're failing and that hurts. you don't want to make your plans for. the future too clear because. then if you then if you don't attain. what you're looking for it's very clear.

that you've lost it which is somewhat. different than failure right. and then there's also the problem that. if you make your motives clear to other. people. then they really have the ammunition to. hurt you because. like i can hurt you by depriving you of. what you want. but i can hurt you even better if i. really know what you want and can. deprive you of that so you have reasons. to keep these things unclear. but then and then you but the problem. then is is that you don't have a. a direction that's powerful right.

because you're not consulting yourself. watching yourself. learning about yourself figuring out who. you are and figuring out. what kind of route through life you. would have to take to be engaged okay so. then you get weak. because you're not integrated you're all. over the place you're scattered. um well then anybody who. is has power for one reason or another. or can. compete with you for your own attention. and win and so if you don't have your.

own plan. painful as it is to develop one partly. because you have to take your own. inadequacies into account. oh yes and you also mentioned you know. you you posit an ideal this is what i. want or this is who i could be. the farther away that is from you the. more inadequate you feel in relationship. to it you know so that's another reason. to avoid it but. yes well that's why every ideal is a. judge. there's no getting away from that now if. it's too much for you. i might say well make a lesser ideal.

like try to pursue something that. doesn't intimidate you into paralysis. right start with something closer that's. more manageable huh so you can even. prove to yourself that you can do it. exactly well what you really want to do. is you want to lay out a. a plan that has a pretty high. end aim but that also consists of steps. that aren't too intimidating that that. so you have to ask yourself um i would. like to do this. um i should do it but would i do it.

and the answer is likely to be no often. because you know what you're like you're. supposed to go to the gym but you don't. it's like okay well maybe you won't go. to the gym but maybe you'd walk. half a block every second day something. like that and you have to ask yourself. i write about this in the first chapter. about the advantage of being a fool. you know if you notice that you're not. so good at something then you can. calibrate down the goal until a fool. like you can manage it. and then you can attain it and then. you're not quite so much of a fool.

and so okay so you have to build a plan. i have a. tool for that that i often recommend for. people called self-authoring. yeah yeah yeah i'm very familiar with it. okay well. and it is it it was developed in an. attempt to help people. write out well an account of themselves. past present and future but. relevant to this discussion is to to. make a plan it's like. what is it that you need to thrive in. the world or at least not to become.

bitter and if you don't have your own. plan that you're committed to. right and honestly committed to what. that means is that you will be the pawn. of other people's decisions especially. now more than ever it feels like do you. think that that's true well that's. that's that certainly seems to be. the conclusion we're reaching in the. course of this conversation it's like as. the. powers around you become more and more. invasive. but also also of more utility to you to. some degree i mean we don't want to be. completely negative about computational.

power right. as the forces around you have more and. more capacity to. grip your attention it stands to reason. that you're going to have to. be the captain of your own ship to a. greater and greater degree. otherwise you'll fall. you'll fall prey to those who wish to. monetize your attention. so it's time for it's time to make a. plan if you haven't made a plan it's. time to have a plan it's a really. it's a really good time to have a goal.

and to have a plan. yes yes i think i think that's it's. always been the case that it's been good. to have a plan but. you know i think it's particularly the. case when things are changing so rapidly. around you too. you know because then it's your own ship. you have place for you. in in this maelstrom of constantly. transforming opportunities and. possibilities. i do think it seems to me that. we're increasingly being called upon to. act as.

independent moral agents now you know. informed by tradition. obviously because it's very difficult to. become wise all on your own. but but and i suppose it's partly. because we have more possibility and. more power so we have to take more. responsibility. i i can't see a way out of that right. yeah i think that makes sense i mean and. it's hard if we if we. think about our own story it's scary to. make ourselves the hero of our own story. in a lot of ways it feels.

i mean it feels like what we would want. to do but it feels scary because you see. what a hero has to do. you know yes what he is presumptuous. doesn't it. you know like who are you to be a hero. well. you know we used to maybe now it feels. like it's a necessity almost though a. little bit more it starts to feel like. it's becoming more of a necessity that. if i want to really get through this. and not only get through it but do it. well and be a leader. and be someone who can affect others and.

be positive and be a part of. what's good then i need to. at some point admit that maybe i do want. to be my own hero. you know yes well and i also think you. have to deeply consider the alternatives. you know it's so as a clinician i. frequently. saw that my clients were afraid to make. a move. um i talked about that a little bit oh. yeah i think it's in that's in chapter. five again do not do what you hate which. is. full of sort of practical advice i.

suppose in relationship to career. people are often afraid to make a change. to make a plan to make a decision to. take responsibility. and the right response to that is yes. no wonder you're afraid it's not this is. frightening. people you know they they want to get a. new job so they have to. um they have to form format and update. their. their cvs their resumes well just that. alone is. is enough to stop many many people.

cold because first of all. you have to gather up all that. information and then second you have to. make a coherent narrative account of. your life and third you have to face all. the things that you did in the past. that didn't work out the way they were. supposed to you have to take account of. the gaps in your. in your resume like to make a resume is. to take a cold hard look at yourself. it's like oh. god who the hell wants to do that like. an inventory kind of.

yes exactly and but but and so you're. afraid of that and you put it off and. you put it off. oh yeah and you you can't say well don't. be afraid of that. what you can say i think that's more. useful is okay. you don't like your job you don't like. your current position you don't like. your status you don't like your income. you don't like your trajectory. that's why you want to change okay well. let's say you don't. make your resume then what does the. world look like in five years. like frightening as it is to make a plan.

um. unhappy stasis just disintegrates. right and so one of the things we do do. in the self-authoring program in the. future authoring. program is say well um if you. deteriorated according to your own vices. and that went that got out of hand what. would that look like. five years down the road you know. everyone knows. some people some people flirt with with. alcoholism or drug abuse or um.

or uh sex addiction. yes yes yes that's right fractured. relationships. even candy whatever and then you know. you have a sense in your mind of what. you'd be like if you let yourself. go oh well i'd be sick man i'd be under. a bridge or something i'd probably be. behind like a. i don't know living behind a tim hortons. or something you know some type of place. i'm trying to make it local to you but. like some yeah i'd be living you know. i'd just be doing drugs or just. probably listening to aerosmith i'd be. outdoors i bet no real home.

i'd have no fear so for you so it's for. you it's a vision of homelessness and. and substance abuse yeah yeah well you. gotta ask yourself like okay. think about that is that what you want. and i don't i mean. think about it imagine that that's what. awaits you. well then you have a better thing to be. afraid of. it's like afraid as i am of of. gripping my own destiny here's the. alternative right. now you've created the now you've. created a reality of what that looks.

like so now you have something to battle. against right. yes exactly right you need part of. part of being motivated is to be afraid. of the proper things. you know afraid as you might be of. success and fair enough. it's possible that you should be more. afraid of stagnation and failure. but you have to make those things real. for you before they have any power. yeah as you're talking i'm even. realizing that if i don't make the. the the lowest if i don't make the. reality of what could happen if i don't.

take care of myself and if i were to. like devolve and disintegrate into my. worst. place if i don't make that a reality it. almost. lets me stay in the fog even more. because. now even the there's not even the the. end hasn't even been created i've left. it all just so. vague that i can just kind of meander. around it's like um. it it reminds me a little bit i didn't. want to quit smoking for a while because.

if i quit smoking then i would have to. actually. then do something else good for myself. or i would have to then. be a non-smoker and a non-smoker might. then go for a run. or he might like you know uh. then achieve a different goal so one of. the reasons i realized for a while that. i didn't quit smoking was because. if i was real honest with myself i. wanted to always have an excuse. of why i couldn't do other stuff right. i think that's a really good that's the.

kind of observation that's necessary. so you've made three observations so far. about you know. sort of nefarious dark motives that keep. you down. you said well there's the unwillingness. to take responsibility. um the the fear of the distance between. you and your ideal and then now you had. another one which is well. it isn't just quitting smoking because. that's part of the decision to be. healthier. well what does that mean well it doesn't. just mean quit smoking it implies other. things.

and and those things are effortful in. the moment. right they pay off in the medium to long. term but they're effortful in the moment. and so and it it. that your ability to do that is. exactly part and parcel of that process. of pulling things out of the fog it's. like. and these are really good questions to. ask yourself it's like well what. what reasons do i have that i don't want. to admit. that they're stopping me from doing. those things that i want to or know that.

i should. i'm afraid of judgment mostly usually. afraid of judgment. yeah yes yes i'm afraid i'll fail. uh i'm afraid i'll realize that i'm not. good enough or i was never capable. enough in the first place. right that's a really big one right. there it's like um. i watched this simpsons episode recently. where bart had to get a c. on one class or or be held back. and he actually studied for like two. days and then he failed.

and he broke down and he said well my. god this is so terrible because i was. failing before but. i wasn't trying and so i could always it. wasn't really failure. because i never tried i never tried but. this time i really tried and yet. i failed and well it turns out that. you know it works out for him in the end. but that's not the point i thought. it was a very apropos episode because. it is much different to fail when you've. gone all in you know and that's.

that's very frightening where does that. fear come from inside of us is that a. fear that's just built into like. it's part of the human journey as a. human. it's part of the journey of the spirit. um. is that something that's just built into. us. from birth kind of or do you think that. some of that fear is learned over time. what do you what do you think about that. well i think i think fear of failure is. part and parcel of. of being human um.

the particulars of that can be changed a. lot by. by uh by your upbringing i mean if you. were punished unduly for failure. or perhaps protected too much from it so. you have no. uh experience with it then that can. certainly. elevate the danger your own temperament. can do that too because. you know sometimes some people are more. prone to catastrophize. as a consequence of relatively trivial. failures and that can bring them down.

so but we are future oriented creatures. and. that's a deep part of our nature and so. that fear of. failure fear of judgment all the things. that you've. raised so far um. are are there deeply central to our. nature. so you also mentioned you know we talked. a little bit earlier about how. not clarifying your future goals. can keep you in the fog you pointed out.

you can do that equally with. the future that is the failure and. i think that's equally true is by. you know you're smoking and. you cannot think about that it's quite. easy to not think about it'll plague you. now and then but. to think about something generally. speaking is effortful and often you also. have to talk to other people and so. you have to put some time and energy. into it. whereas not thinking about something is.

pretty easy and so. you'll be you know you wake up in the. morning and cough and. feel terrible because you smoked way too. much and if you. thought about that for a little while. you could see quite quickly where that's. probably leading. but you can just not do that distract. yourself think about something else. um oh yeah think about it yep play a. game. think about a puzzle think about a. friend think about it yeah do there's so. many. things you could do so then you leave.

yourself undefined well. the problem with all of that too is that. i think. then in some sense you you're destined. to fail. in the most fundamental sense because. unless you believe that you can get what. you want. without being sophisticated about. failure and being sophisticated about. success and. i don't believe that because being. successful at anything. is actually rather unlikely although. being successful at something. you have a decent shot at but any.

particular thing is quite unlikely. and then if you put obstacles in your. path well. and you're facing competition because. you're. definitely always facing competition. yeah there's people that want to define. themselves there's people that want to. make that effort that want to you know. like. open their eyes in the fog and really. try and see themselves you know. um yeah that's gonna be competition. yes and in all likelihood they're going. to get there before you.

unless unless you think that you can. stumble fortunately into what you desire. and i don't think. virtually no one believes that if pushed. you know they might. assume that in some ways and act like. that in some ways but if you push. someone and say look you know. if you tried harder would you do better. they think well. yeah probably yeah and so. it's hard to deceive yourself about such. things is it more of a western. kind of philosophy that we can.

like the fog is almost uh is it more of. a. um luxury almost of western civilization. to even be able to have a fog. i feel like in some cultures and. societies. a fog would be a luxury maybe because. you have to face. real elements of survival more often. well we could say maybe that it's a a. danger. of right in a better way right right.

well i've wondered this you know. so let's say you're a parent and you're. reasonably well off. well how much do you do for your kids. and the answer to that is surprisingly. complicated. because on the one hand you want to do. everything you can. on the other hand if you deprive them of. necessity. then you deprive them of the opportunity. to.

no you deprive them of the motivation. that that necessity often provides. and so you know you said well in. cultures where you're living more hand. to mouth. you you don't have the luxury of. making things unduly complicated and. there is some advantage in. stark motivation you know if you're. really hungry. you don't have a lot of existential. angst around eating. you just eat and.

so that that that definitely is a. problem. it isn't obvious to me what to do about. that either is. it it's one of the diseases of of. of wealth what should i do. well i don't have to do anything well. why should i do anything or what calls. to me. that's that's also a problem that's. going to become increasingly. relevant do you ever wish sometimes like. if you could do it again that you got to. be in like a more of a primitive kind of.

life where you just like. where things just felt like if you saw. an animal it kind of felt like y'all. maybe knew what each other was thinking. or something like that. like sometimes i feel like i love. being in america and i think it's really. cool but. sometimes i'll see like something a. national geographic or something i'll be. like man that really looks. it looks a lot more real you know like a. lot more visceral like. like i've been to africa before and i. remember looking in the eyes of a man.

one time. and it felt like he was like no joke. doctor. it felt like he was like three million. years old. like it just like his eyes it just felt. like man you could just dive into his. eyes and never hit the bottom man you. know i just. do you ever think they get how how neat. it would be maybe to have more of a. primitive type of. i don't know if primitive is right. people people obviously have a nostalgia. for that you know i mean. that's why we camp that's why people.

have a cottage in the woods. there is something about about that more. direct existence that. is obviously attractive to us um. it doesn't mean that we're likely to. produce it for ourselves although it is. strange that we'll do that when we're. vacationing. yeah it is strange that we'll like kind. of go back to almost like we'll kind of. flirt with having nothing. kind of yeah and it isn't it isn't. exactly obvious. well and it's also interesting that we. regard that as a break and i think part.

of the reason for that look. there isn't a lot of evidence that. people in industrialized societies. are happier than people who are in. non-industrialized societies in fact. the evidence is actually quite the. reverse i would believe that. and i think the reason perhaps not the. reason our reason because there's. usually many reasons for anything. is that it requires constant. it requires a certain amount of constant. deferral of gratification to maintain an.

industrialized lifestyle. you're not living in the moment you're. always putting off the moment so that. well so that you'll live longer so i. mean one of the advantages of being in. an industrialized society is that your. life expectancy is much longer. but there is something that's more. primordially satisfying about. or there seems to be about um. a lifestyle where the re the actions and. the rewards and the punishments aren't. so. separated you know you're going to.

medical school you're slaving away let's. say. the reward for that is deferred far into. the future. and you're you're giving up all sorts of. momentary pleasures. and there's a cost there's a cost. associated with that as well. now and. it isn't an easy one to well it's the. constant battle. that we have between what's good in the. moment and what's good over the long run. it's a very difficult thing to get right.

yeah and our existence here is more. about what's good over the long run. maybe it's a little more like well. that's. yes well at least the culture is built. that way. right right yeah yeah it's built on. deferral of gratification and. and and and so on and so. that makes it kind of insipid in some. ways it isn't as adventurous or exciting. yeah yeah or it doesn't seem that way so. interesting though i mean it seems that. people. who are in less industrialized countries.

and have a less industrialized existence. will trade that quite. rapidly for the opportunity to progress. so to speak economically so yeah all. right let me crack in a little liquid. death here. as i hit these ad reads uh. covered spring break is right around the. corner people gonna be running out there. coughing. coughing down your daughter's neck. coughing on your son's back and legs. who knows what's going on spring break.

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in in um. not goal scoring but like i noticed in. my own life in the past year since i. spoke to you last you know i've probably. had some. a decent amount of success and life kind. of got a little bit more exciting with. doing some touring and. um you know was more financially. rewarding. and i always but i found that i was. really. not unhappy i was grateful but i was i. guess i was a little unhappy i think i. always felt like when i got to a certain.

level of success that. the questions that i had inside of my. heart or inside of my brain or the. the discomfort i felt like everything. would go away like. like life would hand me some like like. magic answer book that had a couple. decent answers in it you know. but i mean like beyond order yeah yes. yes like beyond order. like there would be okay you did it you. know like somebody comes out from behind. the door and they're like all right.

bucko you know like finally oz comes out. you know and um. right but it and says good job but that. never happens. no no well you know that's that's. another indication of. of the perverseness of human beings to. some degree so. look there are there are two kinds of. reward technically speaking there's. satisfaction and there's incentive. reward and. satisfaction is the reward that you were. sort of dreaming about it's. it's the so you're hungry and you have.

thanksgiving dinner and you're no longer. hungry that's a reward. that's satiation it's satisfying it it. stops you from being hungry. well you think while i'm hungry i don't. want to be hungry anymore but hunger did. give you something to do. and there was the anticipation of the. meal you know and. sometimes on thanksgiving day people. will not eat all day just to heighten. the anticipation right. because that that increases the. incentive reward and. incentive reward is what you experience. when you're moving towards a desired.

goal. rather than when you attain it and we do. have this vision it's a. vision of utopia and probably is what. motivates utopian thinking motivates. ideas of the promised land which is milk. and honey. that if we just turn the corner and get. to here. everything will be all right yeah and. that. that isn't the case um. we're wired up so that the pursuit is. often more engaging than the.

than the acquisition yeah i wish i had. to realize that though as i was trying. to acquire i didn't. there were it's like it's such a tough. thing i i. missed some of the moments of the. pursuit because i was so focused on i. think on this. end goal that would make any of the. uncomfort or all. it would make all the pain of the the. sacrifice. it would make it all worth it kind of. right right. right well that and that there is some. utility in that sort of dream too. because it. having that image of the future also.

motivates you to pursue it. but the problem with that kind of. thinking i suppose too is that. this is dostoyevsky raised this in notes. from underground it's a great short book. and he created short i'll give it a. chance man it's a great book it's a. great but it's really. it's a real punch that book and it. contains a very. powerful critique of the idea of utopia. and dostoevsky's and he was talking. about. the sort of precursors to the russian. communists and their notion.

if you just gave everybody enough. material resources that all of a sudden. the problems of the world would. disappear dostoevsky. first of all points out that that's. nonsense because. um for reasons that are similar to the. ones that you laid out but also that. even if it was true people are so. perverse in a sense. we're such peculiar creatures that we. would smash our happiness. all to pieces out of sheer boredom just. so something new and exciting could. happen so that we would have something.

to do again and wow i read that and i. thought. wow that's exactly right it's that it's. this. searching that's part of our essential. nature is not only. insatiable but it's actually. desirable because well. what do you do you shake hands with oz. and then you die. it's like done i'm over well you don't. because you want to get on to the next. great adventure and so. it is i you know the sermon on the mount. seems to address this to me.

this fundamental problem and my reading. of it anyways is something like. um align yourself with the highest good. that you're capable of imagining. and so for all intents and purposes. that's god the. sum total of all that's good and you. live in relationship to that. and then concentrate on the moment. and see it it seems to me that way you. get to have your cake and eat it too. right because you're aiming at something. that's like the promised land this.

proverbial utopia. it's it by definition is the best. possible thing. and maybe your view of that's going to. change as you mature but it doesn't. matter that's still going to orient you. and having that in mind so now you're. pointing in the right direction. you can attend very carefully to the. details of the pursuit. and that's i think that's that's the. best we can do. well i i certainly haven't well i did. come from the sermon on the mount so. hypothetically it's a reliable source.

you know but i think it makes a. tremendous amount of sense. psychologically. yeah i mean why would you not aim at the. best that you could conceptualize. if you were going to aim right um and. having done that well then it is. reasonable to concentrate on the present. and then you can then you can immerse. yourself in the present. and enjoy it um. and and then you don't perhaps have. those regrets that you described of. missing the voyage because you were so. focused on on the on the.

say the material luxury yeah and. material luxury is a strange thing too. you know i mean. um it isn't obvious often whether you. own something or it owns you. and and i don't mean that in a flippant. sense oh i wouldn't at all recently i. was investing in you know. people doing cryptocurrency now it's. like invisible i don't even know what it. is you know but it's. people are excited by it and i started. to notice. those markets on this crypto thing and. uh and i didn't mean to interrupt you dr.

no please go ahead um thanks um. so but i noticed like i'd wake up in the. middle of the night and i would check. this thing. and finally i realized like whatever. monies i'm gonna possibly make in this. portal this gambling portal of. cryptocurrency. um which no judgment on it i don't know. enough about it to really judge it but. i'm spending like important time. checking it i was just i realized i. became a slave to it like. and so i just sold it all i don't want.

i just it did i in in my heart and in my. chest it didn't feel good having that. distraction to check all the time. about what was going on with this money. it just felt like it owned me. and um and i immediately decided you. know what i just don't want to be owned. by this. maybe something else but just not this. you know. right and was it specifically the worry. about it that was bothering you or what. what do you think. triggered or or alerted you to the fact. that that pursuit wasn't for you.

that's a great question i think it was. um. i couldn't control myself this is the. truth i couldn't control myself from. checking it. and so the only alternative i had was to. eliminate it. because i was really having trouble and. it doesn't fully answer your question. but i was just having trouble stop. checking it so i just said i have to get. rid of it. well it answers it to some degree you. found um. to your surprise see this is partly what.

i what we were talking earlier about. not hiding things in the fog this is. part of the process of. coming to a clearer vision of yourself. is noticing exactly that. because your theory was well i can buy. this cryptocurrency. and maybe i'll make some money but. regardless one way or another. this is going to make my life better you. had a theory of yourself and you had a. theory. of the money ah yeah well it turns out. that that was wrong. now why exactly we don't know but.

the consequence of that was that you. became a slave to. a set of impulses that you didn't find. enjoyable in the least. yeah and that is and and so then you. stop doing it and. and and and fair enough that seems to be. the right. right solution yeah and that's a kind of. a simple scale i think and. that scale evolves as i get a little bit. older of. does this make me feel good like does it. really make me feel good. like even sometimes making some money. doesn't really make me feel good you. know um.

you know like does it make me feel good. as like a human as like a. something that has to be alive do i does. it feel like it like. brightens that part of me that makes me. feel proud you know i guess i. i don't know i'm trying to explain it no. that's a it's a great thing to explain. as far as i'm concerned because. look you said does it make you feel good. and then you started to investigate what. good meant and well both of those things. are really worth doing. they're not foolish in the least because.

what's good. you know when you brought in the idea of. being alive which you know you might. think well why did you bring in the idea. of being alive. obviously your life but you're you're. there's a theory there that's emerging. too which is well. i'm a living creature and i'm a well. this african that you saw who was so old. you're that old. you're really old you know life has been. around for three and a half billion. years we're really old and god only. knows what we're up to or who we are. and so you say well we're going to. pursue what's good.

and what is that well it has something. to do with. the fact that we're alive we have to. serve our own. biological reality we we have to address. the good in a manner that's that's right. for. for for us as as living creatures and so. you say well we have to pursue the good. but we also have to figure out what. it means what the good means. you know and that's partly what i'm. trying to do in well and beyond order my. other books i.

looked a lot at traditional ideas of the. good most of those are. grounded in religious conceptions you. know what does it mean to. to pursue the good what does it mean to. be a good person. well these are very complicated problems. and. and but they're you you don't you don't. get a free pass on them. you if you're if you're murky about them. then while you're you're ill-defined and. vague and inarticulate. in your own life and that's not.

there's comfort in that it's comfortable. yeah oh it's very comfortable. it's like a nice very it's like a nice. shawl or something you know it's almost. it's merino wool i mean it's nice you. know it's. really nice to be comfortable and not. have to ask myself. am i happy am i being of service do i. feel like i'm. contributing anything to the world do i. feel like. i'm being honest do i love myself. you know do i love others am i being a.

good brother. am i being a good son. if some of the answers aren't what i. want them to be am i trying. in some way to maybe. get to answers that i'm more happy with. um. you know am i proud of myself am i. ashamed of myself. um where does my shame come from. you know yeah well that's a good. question that's a really tricky question.

that's when i feel a lot when you. i just feel a lot i feel you know shame. really. it's such a powerful thing sometimes i'm. carrying a shame i don't even know if. it's my own. yes well that's why there's the concept. of original sin. you know the shame is such a universal. human emotion it's. it saturates our existence it's partly. because we're so. social you know and so the sense that we. have a responsibility. to ourselves and to others is really.

built into us at a very. very profound level multiple in multiple. ways and. we've we we exist in relationship to. that shame all the time and. it's easy to say well you should. dispense with it. you know and but it's not so easy to do. and it's not even clear. how you should go about dispensing with. it. you know i've seen people in my clinical. practice who had what seemed to be. seem to be counterproductive levels of. shame.

right they would do things that someone. else might do and then punish themselves. far more than seemed appropriate and i i. started to think about what does it mean. to punish yourself appropriately. philosophy of punishment which i. outlined to some degree in the first. book. on the chapter on children which is. don't let your children do anything that. makes you dislike them. well you have to stop them well how do. you stop people well you punish them one. way or another even if it's just. withdrawal of attention. there's a so then well how should you.

punish assuming there are standards. etc well one rule at least with regards. to yourself is you shouldn't hit. yourself harder than is necessary to. teach you. right so if you've learned your lesson. good enough. and i think that's also often a prefer. condition for forgiving other people. it's like well you know did they learn. their lesson. yes well then maybe you can let it go. because additional punishment. what is it going to make them learn. their less the lesson even more.

well why will i forgive myself why will. i forgive other people before i forgive. myself i wonder. well that's a good question because it. isn't obvious that you should right you. you. because you know we tend to think that. people are selfish and. they put themselves first but it's just. as common the reverse. is just as common where they'll be. better to other people than to. themselves. yeah i feel that a lot it isn't yes i i. i think it's more common than the. reverse actually.

although people can act selfishly from. time to time. i do think that most people punish. themselves more than they punish other. people. and that's that's also something to be. aware of and to see if you can. regulate that because it's not it's not. necessarily for the best even if it. might be associated with the willingness. to take. responsibility yeah i think it just. comes from having to take a lot of. responsibility growing up and so you. would be hyper. you know you would have to be very stern. on yourself um.

but i don't want to get away from shame. because it's really important um. well shame is a good pointer to the good. too. hypothetically because you could ask. yourself um. well why what am i ashamed about what is. shame. what should i do about it those are all. good questions maybe you can dispense. with the shame that's excessive. but if you're ashamed well does that. mean that you did something wrong. well if it does that means that there's.

such a thing as doing something wrong. that seems to imply that there's such a. thing as wrong that seems to imply that. there's such a thing as. right and so shame in principle. can also be a pathway to to what is good. say well if i'm engaged in something. that's good. at least i won't be ashamed and that. i mean everybody has to answer these. questions for themselves but. i think that's something that's very. much worth considering what would.

what would be the case if you decided to. stop engaging in all those actions that. made you ashamed. yeah yeah no it's good and it's nice to. think that. shame can be a direction and anything. can be a direction that could lead us. then to the reverse. which is like yeah if if something is. wrong then there must be something. that's right and so well it's the best. evidence for some. it's the best evidence that i know of. for for something that's right. right it's it's it you can.

you can find people who will debate the. existence of. the the true or the good they're cynical. and they're nihilistic let's say. um they're not naive maybe that's their. advantage. but it's very rare to find someone who. doesn't believe that there's such a. thing as what's wrong. and so and an untrue and so. that's a good starting point it's like. if you want to discover what's right. you can first discover more easily. discover what's wrong.

look i think that's partly why we like. anti-heroes in. in movies and in fiction you know what's. the purpose of a dark. character well he shines a light on what. the reverse is. and sometimes that's very powerful in. the batman series for example. the joker generally was. was a better bad character than batman. was a good character. he was more realistic and more thought. provoking. yeah yeah there was more.

i want to say more depth there but there. was more depth there there was there was. like. salmon yeah well i think it's partly. because the joker especially heath. ledger's version. was pretty realistically evil. in a psychological sense whereas batman. well he's a he's a. he's a vigilante and. yeah whereas being a vigilante might be. you know one pale reflection of what the. good is because it requires courage and.

and and is involved with justice it's. still a pretty pale reflection of what. the good. is so i do sometimes. go ahead sorry doctor no no you you had. a thought i'd like to hear it. i sometimes think maybe that's why it's. almost interesting to be the joker in. the world sometimes to be. to to delve in that turmoil of. the darkness and stuff because it's a. more complex character in some ways. there's almost.

some appeal to it well you know. there's a notion derived from the. psychology. psychological theories put forth by carl. jung and. and and he derived some of this from. nietzsche. a philosopher and nietzsche. famously claimed that most morality. was not morality but cowardice it was. merely the fear of getting. caught wow or the or the fear of public. humiliation. something like that that's what keeps.

you in line so then if there's a riot. and. there's no police around you're. perfectly happy to throw a rock through. the window because. the probability of getting caught. declines precipitously. so and then if your morality is all. persona so. for jung a morality that was nothing but. conformity and adherence to social norms. and fear. sort of a narrow constrained i'll never. dare to do anything wrong and therefore. i'm good. yeah that wasn't that wasn't good at all.

and we have a lot of that these days. yes definitely definitely and so. under those conditions if if you're. nothing but a persona. and so you're an obedient coward let's. say. then your dark side is actually the. pathway to salvation. because it's what breaks out yes. precisely it's what breaks that. that tawdry banal. morality into pieces and leads you.

forward. that's crazy so sometimes you need the. dark side to even see what's going on on. the. ah it's tricky it's very it's very. very frequently the case and i mean it's. it's a. it's an axiom of of jungian. psychotherapy that the pathway to. development is through the shadow. so for example um you might have. somebody in your clinical practice who's. um being raised by by extremely. conservative and religious parents. which i'm not criticizing by the way but.

you know they're 27 years old and still. a virgin. now look there's utility in. fidelity and promiscuity isn't a plus. but it might be that if you're still a. virgin at the age of 27. that it's necessary for you to. investigate your lust in order to. progress. past your mere childlike obedience. right right yeah because you may have.

some hang up there that's even. preventing you from. engaging and getting settled down you. know oh you in all likelihood because. for example if you're terrified of that. then perhaps you're not very good at. sophisticated sexual suggestion like. flirtation and so then you're nowhere. near as attractive as you might be so no. one is going to be. you know interested in you as a. potential mate yeah. you know and it you might also see. someone who. prides themselves for example on never.

getting angry maybe they had an. overbearing father who was angry all the. time. i never get angry well that person is. constantly being pushed around by his or. her boss at work and maybe. his wife or husband his or her wife or. husband. and that that i'm too good to be. angry persona is stopping them from. manifesting the aggression necessary to. even tell the truth. about their situation man there's so. there's so many boxes and places we can.

put ourselves we have to be careful. everything is kind of a little bit of a. trap sometimes. yeah well that. that's why we pay attention to being. bored i suppose to some degree you know. that's a sign too that. the box has got a little bit too tight. yeah and. then you need to make arrangements with. the part of you that can break things. because. things need to be broken just like they. need to be fixed and something that's. old and. and and and ready to fall down sometimes.

needs to be leveled before something new. can come along. look there's nothing more obvious in the. world today than. the fact that you might need help and i. know i know i need help because i get. help. what i'm talking to you about today is. getting help that is better than what. you've been getting you could ask your. boy sidney for some information. and that little bit shall tell you some. or you could ask a little daniel over. there for some information and you know. he's over there he's on he's hitting him.

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learned from reading nietzsche was. again in relationship to morality is. that. um a man for example. someone who is incapable of violence is. not moral because they keep it under. control. right right because they're not doing. that's right they don't have the. capacity it's like well i wouldn't. engage in a fist fight well yeah. right precisely and and i can parade. that as my moral virtue i'm. i'm non-violent i'm non-aggressive and.

this is completely independent of the. morality of violence or aggression you. know. i mean obviously we think it's moral in. cases of self-defense and so. it has its necessary place. but you have to ask yourself all the. time is like are you law abiding or are. you just. conventional and cowardly yeah dang. man more questions you got to ask. ourselves we gotta we gotta ask. ourselves questions. i think that's just such a big thing we. have to like people we have to learn to.

get into places and. ask ourselves questions and really come. up with some answers. and one thing i notice is the habit of. it gets it helps you fine tune. the practice of it just even the. practice of it helps you fine-tune the. ability to do it. because at first it feels very. impossible when you first start asking. yourself questions to really think. you're going to get somewhere and get. answers. yeah well to begin with you don't. necessarily get you. you don't get going very quickly right. right right. and that's again you have to have some.

patience with yourself when you first. take those stumbling steps. you said that since we've talked last. that you know your life has progressed. positively is that the case. yeah yeah yesterday so what to what do. you. to what do you attribute that what have. you been doing right or what have you. been doing wrong. less well one thing that's helped me i. think is just. i've had more exposure to people that. are. more capable in a lot of different.

fields than myself. so i think that's made part of me want. to rise to the occasion a little bit. more. not to be equals to them or anything but. just to it's made me a little more. worldly i think in some ways. in other ways my brother made me promise. i would go to therapy. even if i didn't want to so that's made. me have to like. commit to going and speaking to a. therapist every week so that makes me. have to um.

just talk about stuff a little more and. i think slowly in some of those moments. i've had to like. you know i've had moments where if i'm. really feeling something. i'll kind of ask myself what am i. feeling right now like am i feeling. sad am i feeling disappointed am i. feeling. dejected am i feeling tired you know. i just start to really kind of like it's. almost like using a metal detector over. my feelings when i ask. questions and then sometimes one of the. words will kind of spark up and like.

okay i'm feeling. uh dejected um and then why what. who's making you feel dejected what's. making you feel dejected. it's almost like i'm like sherlock. holmes but. i'm the crime scene yeah. that's perfect that's a that's perfect. well that is exactly that process by. which knowledge emerges that i was. referring to. before it's like you have an emotion but. you don't even necessarily know what it. is. yeah it's just a clue it's like bubbles. that come up in a river or bubbles that.

come up in a lake. right and sometimes there's a monster. down there dude and that gets. scary when you start to really get some. of the answers you're like oh my god. and some of them will make me just. sometimes break down crying because. it'll be such a real. unearthing of something that i didn't. know was going on inside of me. yes well that's another reason why. people don't look. is that there's a monster in the depths. and and that metaphor of the bubbles. that's. that's that's a perfect symbolic. representation.

the depth because look you can't see. what's in the depth. so the depth is what's unknown and. something lurks in the unknown and. when emotions arise as you mentioned. it's a manifestation of something that's. underneath. you can see this in you see this very. clearly in intimate relationships you. know where. one person will get annoyed at the other. for some minor transgression and soon. they'll be fighting about something that. happened or didn't happen 10 years ago. and then.

they'll get to the point where they're. investigating the structure of the. entire relationship. and then that'll stop people from ever. having a dispute at all because they're. so terrified that. any pathway into a dispute will lead. down into. you know is this relationship worthwhile. that's actually part of the reason i. think. that it's useful to have divorce. difficult if not forbidden. because otherwise that question it's. like do you really want to be tortured. by that question for the rest of your. life.

at some point it's it's nice to just say. well i'm not going to go there that's. off the table. yeah i um. i want to we talked a little bit about. shame and i wanted to kind of take it. into a different direction and um. you know i feel a lot i've kind of felt. some shame. um like i don't feel ashamed of my. country like i live in the in the united. states. and i don't feel ashamed of my country. but i feel like. more recently there's been.

like i'm supposed to feel ashamed of my. country like i know like the olymp. the olympics is going to be coming up. sometime i don't know when but i know it. keeps coming up. and i'm it's like if i cheer for america. it almost feels these days in america. like you're. wrong um and it seems like there's a ton. of animosity and resentment. uh from americans in but who are. enjoying like the comfort and the. privileges. and the the the opportunities of of.

america um towards america and towards. like its history and stuff. um but i but like if we didn't have the. battles and we didn't have. like the social revolutions that have. happened in america over time. you know then half of the world would. still be enslaved and. you know there'd be a lot less. opportunity for all types of people and. all types of genders and everything. so it just feels like such a weird time. there's like a lot of shame being cast.

on. people in america for. for i think supporting like a. traditional idea of america maybe. yeah i think i think you're dead on with. all those observations and and. especially with regards to the sort of. questioning attitude you have. towards it it's like well look let's see. if we can sort that through a little bit. all right well there's some real. complex existential problems there. because you you pointed out well.

with any complicated nation there's. the bloody history and the. accomplishments and the question is well. what do you make of the relationship. between the bloody history and the. accomplishments. and it's complicated so you're you're. cursed and blessed by your history. right and what's the right attitude well. okay let's look at patriotism for a. minute. now in principle pride is a sin.

and i think the reason for that's more. like arrogance. and arrogance is a sin because an. arrogant person. is convinced that they're absolutely. right. and that can make you a tyrant to other. people but also to yourself it makes it. very difficult for you to learn. for example and so you might say well. i'm a patriot and you. and then if you're if you criticize that. you could say well that's a sin of pride. and. um look at the bloody history of your. nation and how dare you be proud of that. and and it's not easy to figure out.

how to argue your way out of that but by. the same token. to have no affinity for your community. and your country. seems also seems to lead you places that. aren't. particularly good so it seems to me that. um one attitude you could have towards. your country. is gratitude that's not pride exactly. right that's so you could be a patriot.

of gratitude. and you could say well look man i go. outside and. hey look there's a highway and there's a. bridge and. there's a school and a university and i. didn't make these things and. i can walk down the street without fear. of like. mass thugs most of the time and. i can pursue what i want. at least compared to people throughout. history. and right a lot of opportunity yeah and. a lot of security.

a lot of security i mean the probability. that that a person who isn't involved in. criminal activity is going to be the. victim of a violent crime is extremely. low. so and far more than at any other point. in history. and so i think from animals like animals. used to attack people all the time but. they don't even. that that hardly even happens anymore. here. yes well way back when. this is millions of years ago there was.

a cat in africa. that had two large teeth in the front. and one large tooth on the bottom that. exactly. fit over a hominid skull yes. bro yeah right absolutely and it turns. out that we're not eaten by many of. those anymore and. the problem right and you know. we've kind of dealt with the predator. problem to the point where we actually. feel sorry for the predators. you know maybe we want a few more wolves.

and a couple of lions and tigers which. is easy to say if they're not eating. your children. at the time but right right so it seems. to me that. you know security we're definitely. secure. we are definite well comparatively. speaking and. for sure you compare us to the rest of. humanity in the past and the rest of. humanity at present. it's like you can be grateful for all. those things and still. so look when you're a kid you kind of. have a naive. patriotism the same way that you have.

naive trust. when you're a kid as long as no one's. abused you you kind of trust everybody. and but that's not really trust you know. it's. it's not trust in the sophisticated. sense trust in the sophisticated sense. is more like. look i know that you're as full of. snakes as me. and that if i enter into a relationship. with you there's a possibility of. deceit and betrayal but i'm going to put. an honest foot forward anyways. and take you at your word partly because.

that's an encouragement for you to. manifest your best. and hopefully you'll do that with me and. so that's an act of courage that makes. the world. better and you still might get stabbed. in the back for doing it but. you're not a fool under those conditions. you've taken a calculated risk. and i i would say the same thing about. patriotism it's like when you're a kid. you know you're you you you stand up. when the american flag shows and you. sing and. you're you're an unquestioning.

participant in that. and then maybe when you're an adolescent. you start to learn about the. sawyer elements of history and that. takes a hit. but then maybe you get beyond that and. you think yes well human history is a. complete bloody nightmare it's a bloody. tragedy. it's a it's a catastrophe but. i'm still look at all the things that. have been produced as a consequence and. you're grateful for that and and that's. a more mature.

form of courage i would say rather than. the unthinking patriotism or unthinking. anti-patriotism for that matter it's. discerning gratitude. right and i think you can be. discerningly grateful for what the us. has to offer and if you're not moving. away. that's sort of evidence that you feel. the same way. yeah well sometimes i think a lot of. people would like to move away but. there's just nowhere left to move you.

know. i think a lot of people sometimes would. love to start a new country or something. but they just. there's nowhere left to go kind of well. it's good in principle you know. i saw i went to an airbnb out on. vancouver. in the vancouver island vicinity a few. years ago oh there you go on one of. these islands. you tried it but populated by mostly by. hippies. yeah and we came across this. couple who rented this little cabin that. my wife and i stayed in. and they had decided to sort of go back.

to the land. well they bought something that owned. them. because they were on this island it was. pretty isolated and. it could be self-sufficient but. do you know how much work it takes to. make you self-sufficient. wow like just keeping yourself in. chickens is no. simple task it's it's a it's a daily. grind. and that's just chickens right and maybe. you're training. eggs and so on yeah that's right it's.

and so they were really in trouble this. couple because. they wanted to go start a new country. but they had no idea. just how difficult it is to well to have. a chicken let's say which is something. we take for granted because it's so. unbelievably simple yeah all these. problems are solved for us we don't even. notice. how difficult it was to solve them have. you seen. there's that television show alone that. was actually filmed out on vancouver. island do you ever see any episodes of. that show. no no what's its theme it's they take i.

think maybe 10 people and they put them. onto. like an uninhabited place and they have. to survive for themselves by hunting and. fishing and trapping. and so it's kind of reality television. but they the contestants have to film. all the footage themselves so there's no. crew there so. i mean you have people really like. killing aardvarks and ox i mean hunting. down bears it's pretty intense. um it's about as like real.

as i've ever seen a show get but the. first two seasons were on. uh vancouver island and it. well it turns out doing things like. hunting and fishing. are actually incredibly difficult. technical skills because. animals don't like to be eaten and. they're actually pretty smart. so you have to know a tremendous amount. before you can manage that with any. degree of success. yeah um so patriotism so.

so i if so if we're out of time what do. you think about that i think i mean i. think your comments about. i think the idea of patriotism is under. assault. because you know it's an oppressive. culture and all of that. and there there is an element of that. that of course is true. but i think well i like hearing what you. said to have a gratitude. uh you know to have a thankful gratitude. of where we are and of the place that.

i'm in. to think of history in a little bit of a. longer term. instead of just in maybe some of the. simpler terms that maybe i saw in. commercials. um growing up and stuff like that. um and just in some of the simpler terms. of like. saying the pledge of allegiance and. stuff but i. um i really like having the feeling that. everybody is on the same page. even though maybe that's just a uh. a creature comfort that i've had growing.

up and maybe that's changing some in. america. um it just used to feel like everyone. was on the same page. yes well that that that brings us back. to the technological revolution to some. degree. you know there does seem to be a certain. amount of fragmentation of the narrative. let's say. and that is unsettling. because it is when everyone's on the. same page. they're not at each other's throats.

you know and you might you can put that. down and you can say well that's just. conformity it's like well. first of all let's not get too casually. critical about the idea of conformity i. cover that in chapter one do not. casually. denigrate social institutions or. creative achievement it's like. it's really hard to get everybody on the. same page. and it's really hard to get everybody to. conform especially when they're doing it. voluntarily. and there is not much difference between. that and peace.

and if you don't think that that's a. good thing then you should think really. hard about failed states. where no one's on the same page and you. get an instant. proliferation of warring gangs of armed. thugs. and if you think the utopians are going. to win. the armed thug battle you've got another. thing coming yeah because. they'll be the first ones on the. chopping block and so. you know you're you're a comedian and an. open person and.

not likely to have a great taste in some. ways for pure conformity and. and i'm someone who enjoys artistic. creation and. and revolutionary ideas but. by the same token i'm not someone who. despises conformity. you know well you said in the book i. mean you said that we're always going to. have as humans we're always going to be. searching for revolutionary ideas it's. something that. um is constantly the way that we've.

always been. and it's the way of like just a a. liberal way of thinking is to keep. moving forward and progress and try. things that are new and want to do that. but i just feel like you have to have a. foundation of comfort to be able to do. that from. because some of that is a luxury of. being comfortable. um or at least tremendous amount of. enough um and to feel at all. and when things get really uncomfortable. that feels a lot scarier.

place to be creative from almost. well the first thing we should point out. is that. being a conformist isn't the highest of. moral virtues but. being unable to conform is worse. now refusing to conform that's in a. different category you might have valid. reasons for. especially if you're exceptional and you. know you could say well. virtually everyone is exceptional in. some regard. and should perhaps not be conformist. there and we could say fine.

but the rest of the 95 percent of them. should. go along with the crowd because that. that's going along with peace and. we also don't ever want to confuse the. inability to conform. with the ability to produce. revolutionary ideas. because just because you can't conform. or are rejected doesn't mean you're a. genius. what it most likely means is that you're. just incapable. and then you're going to be highly.

motivated to confuse your incapability. with creativity and that's not. helpful and then you pointed out. something that's also very important um. just how many dimensions do you want to. be exceptional on anyways. you know you're you're a comedian and. you have to take substantial risk to do. that and. it's quite threatening it wouldn't be. such a bad idea if the rest of your life. was. well maybe secure enough to allow you to. tolerate that. yeah yeah to have some more sense of.

yeah like um. i guess i worry on like a bigger like. picture as a nation. that like if we start to like if the. fabric of some of the textile of the. past if some of the tapestry kind of i. guess or tapestry. of the past starts to come apart. like i'm all for making new tapestry but. i just feel like. i just get scared i don't know if i feel. but it's more a fear. i get scared that if we do that that. things could just tear and and i just.

don't know what's going to happen. i guess i'm just i'm scared a little bit. i don't know. what the future of this country that i. live in looks like. and i used to feel like i had a little. bit better idea. but i don't know if the idea of what i. thought it looked like. was just a comfort. based upon like my skin tone and growing. up with at least. food in my house you know i i you know. some stuff like i just don't know if.

i don't know if maybe my idea was just a. luxury or something i i don't know. do you know what i'm kind of saying a. little bit i'm just kidding well i think. that's a question. that's a question that everybody's being. driven to answer. partly because there's intense moral. pressure to ask yourself that question. you know. to what degree was your privilege. unearned well. there's an easy answer to that actually. lots of it. yeah but the same holds true with. virtually everyone else yeah.

you know and so um. who's who's got privilege depends a lot. on what group you're willing to use as a. comparison. yeah yeah so um. even impoverished people in in north. america. are rich by world standards yeah. yeah they're in the top one percent. generally speaking. and they're certainly in the top one. percent by historical standards. the problem with with hammering home the.

idea of undeserved privilege is that. there's no one who can't be crucified. on that particular cross right right you. know unless you're born naked in the. middle of a field with. nothing yeah everyone is the undeserved. recipient of. of the fruits of the past the fact that. you have a mother is. is a privilege you didn't earn that. and so when you say you deserve nothing.

because of your privilege. what makes you so sure you're not saying. that to everyone for all time in which. case no one ever gets anything that they. are that they can have for their own. so it's a very dangerous game well. i don't see where it can end it's not. it's not obvious because. imagine each person is multiple has. multiple identities. that's intersectionality we all have. multiple identities you're privileged.

along some of those identities and. relatively speaking and less along. others. so if you're young and black and female. well you're young. right so so that's not. deserved it's not like you earned being. young. and so right how are you gonna be some. way of prayer there's always gonna be. some form of privilege. in every regard yeah i certainly didn't. feel privileged growing up i mean i feel.

like a lot of what i've had in my life. has certainly. been earned um i felt disadvantaged in a. lot of ways. um you know emotionally and some there's. always yeah. i think everybody would have their own. uh discussion their own like. not their own parameters but yeah i. could see how everybody would have. pluses and minuses. well that's why i think the right level. of analysis is the individual. you know and when you move away from. that it gets danger it gets dangerous. quickly. and it gets dangerous for everyone and.

and the. the reason why is the reason that you. just laid out you take any individual. person. you can point to the advantages that. they had now look. i understand that some people i mean i. was a clinician for a long time. and i saw people who had lives that were. so hard that. you can you could barely even imagine it. you know. i had one client who was. impaired intellectually.

she had she lived with an aunt who was. schizophrenic who had an alcoholic. boyfriend who was extremely violent and. also schizophrenic. who used to bother her about being. possessed by satan. she was so um. uh i hate saying shamed ashamed that she. couldn't look. anyone in the eye she would walk down. the street with her hand like this. sort of bowed down because she felt so. um so unworthy. she wasn't an attractive person she.

looked like a street person so people. treated her. badly all things considered now look. she i saw her at this hospital that i. was working at. where the inpatients were people who. were in even worse shape. than her they were people so hurt that. they couldn't be de-institutionalized. and i saw her because she had decided. that she wanted to take one of these. institutionalized people for a walk when. she was out walking her dog.

so despite all her her catastrophes. which were. plenty you know she could still see. outside of herself. to someone who had it even worse it was. really something. you know yeah well and so this privilege. game it's like. well look to your own privilege. and that isn't i'm i'm not saying that. there. aren't historical injustices but. of course there are many of them right.

there are for everyone in a lot of ways. yes but if we only look at the victim. side of things anyway even as a human if. i only see myself as a victim. i'm really going to have a tough time i. can see myself i can respect that i'm a. victim of some things. but if i only see myself as a victim. it's going to make the rest of my life. pretty tough i feel like. well it also enjoys what it matters what. you want to do about. the fact that you're a victim do you. want to take away from other people.

you know it isn't that and that. i don't know i kind of put us on a lot. of different planes here at once. oh that's okay well that was a very. complicated problem and it's one that. you know i think is particularly uh. relevant. to your particular country at this. particular time and place because. that the tapestry is under assault and. the thing is it's a lot easier to burn. something up or to cut it up than it is. to knit a new tapestry.

it's really hard and has there been. is it is it okay where we are right now. from an outsider's perspective. is it scary like based on like. historical. um civilizations and stuff like. do you think we're in a place that is. like. still kind of safe judging from an. outside like or from a. you know i mean you're still in western. civilization canada's not extremely. different than the us. um do you feel like we're in a scary.

place or do you feel like. it's just a lot of pomp and circumstance. and at the root of things we're. were still at a very uh realistic place. i think there are always. dangers that threaten the stability of. societies.

i think that those dangers are real but. i think they're always there. i think that i have faith in the. robustness of. say american institutions all things. considered. it seems to me that you your country has. weathered. crises of at least this magnitude and. often far worse many times in the past. and. and that's worked out um.

so i think there's reason to be alert. but not hopeless. i mean on the broader scale the broad. scale. world scale let's say it's hard to make. a case that. things were ever better than they are. now. and it's almost impossible to make the. case that there was ever a time in. the past where things were getting. better faster than they are now. so it's reasonable to assume. that everyone on the planet will be out.

of abject poverty as defined by the u.n. by the year 2030. wow it's half well it already have from. 2000 to 2012. and so and that was the fastest. transformation in human history by a. huge margin. yeah i've been seeing less poor people i. feel like honestly. well there there's there's variance. because in the western countries that. the working class hasn't kept up as well. as they were.

in the 60s let's say in some ways but. globally speaking there's lots of. reasons for optimism. but it's a difficult problem to settle. because there's always the possibility. that any given problem will get. completely out of hand you know that's. the. the case that people make with regards. to climate change. you know well there's a small percentage. of complete catastro. a small percent probability of complete. catastrophe. well we don't know what to do with a. problem like that. because it's impossible to calculate how.

many resources you devote to something. that's absolutely catastrophic but that. has a small probability of occurring. right right you know like what if the. greenland ice sheet. melts right well then the oceans rise. you know multiple feet. and that's a catastrophe well how much. is it worth to stave that off. it's very very difficult to calculate. yeah and plus we're still a lot of. people are still surviving a lot of. i think there's still that a heavy. survival instinct in a lot of people.

where. it's more of short-term survival that i. don't even think it's. it's our fault for thinking that way. it's just built into like our limbic. system or a brain stem or something like. it's hard it is yeah it i agree with you. it's an archetypal story that's the. apocalypse. yeah you know the end of the world is. always upon us. you know i well go on sorry doc well. it's because. things can fall apart for us completely. and they do in our own life there's.

illness waiting there's death waiting. like we we have a built-in sense that. things can come to a cataclysmic. end and it it and that also makes us. prudent and careful and able to look. at the future and first all catastrophes. but the problem is is that we can also. generate false positives and be unduly. worried about things that are very. unlikely to occur. yeah yeah and sometimes it's like some. people will start to become. unduly worried about things that they. don't even know if they can occur. it that even becomes an addiction for.

some people like they're just addicted. to problems you know. like um i noticed that a lot like people. are just addicted to problems um. especially on social media in in in the. us and. and and i had a question about social. media sometimes i feel like tech. is like the new fossil fuel kind of um. like like bandwidth is like the new oil. and like youtube is like the pipelines. and like. um you know like wi-fi is kind of like. this. is this natural gas like it's all kind.

of. um i don't know there's like these. platforms that we need to be able to. survive these days. um you mean they've become part of the. infrastructure right they've become. huge parts of the infrastructure. especially in communication. um yes and communication has become one. of the main. uh uh i mean especially even since we. talked last like last time we spoke you. were talking about how. um video and uh podcasting has become. such a new form of communication how.

people are using it and. the platforms that we're on are now like. even. probably twice as popular as they were. two years ago when we spoke. um so i sometimes. i find for myself like i get afraid to. kind of speak up and even ask. questions like on so on on my podcast. and. and to talk about certain topics because. i'm afraid of being. um d platform like the platform can be. taken away. and they never i just wonder have they. ever had that in history like in the.

past like. you know people you you might you you. might not be afraid to write something. because no one was going to take away. the trees to make the paper. you know um but now it feels like if you. don't. and i may be wrong but i feel sometimes. like if i don't say the right. not say the right thing but if i don't. evade certain conversations. and raise my hand and ask certain. questions that if. that if i do do those things sorry that. they could take away the forest they.

could take away the. the paper the youtube the instagram they. can take away the platform. where we basically has become our. english language kind of in a lot of. ways. well you know i mean in societies that. weren't free and that would be most. societies. the probability that your voice could be. taken away was very high because you. could just be killed or imprisoned. wow and i suppose all things considered. it's better to have your youtube channel.

shut down than to be. imprisoned or killed right right. it is it is new i suppose in that. we're dependent on these technology. companies increasingly dependent for our. interpersonal communication. i don't feel like the fear that you're. describing is. unwarranted i certainly feel the same. way about my podcast and. youtube channel is i've had guests on. recently. where i've been extremely uncomfortable. talking about the topics that we've been.

talking about. and i think reasonably so. you can face de-platforming. or worse they can just shut you down. completely and it's arbitrary and very. very. complicated and costly and hard on you. and. and then there's the constant. probability of. being swarmed on social media. which is in some ways a new phenomenon. partly because of the sheer volume of it.

yeah. and the degree of exposure so there are. reasons to tread carefully. that's for sure and it is quite. terrifying. no doubt about it have you run into. trouble with your podcast. no i haven't run into trouble i think a. lot of it for me has just been. fear um you know i had on. uh robert f kennedy who's a friend of. mine and he's. not an anti-vaxxer but he is a lot more. about safe vaccines and making sure that. vaccines have been.

tested properly and he's an. environmentalist. you know since he was a child and so it. makes sense that he. you know he cares about the environment. around us and the one that's in our. veins you know going into our bodies. he's just an overall environmentalist. man. but um but i know he was his instagram. was taken away for being. i don't know if he was anti-vaxxed but. certainly for like bringing up a lot of. topics and and questions about. vaccinations. um so i don't know i guess i just see it. happening sometimes and so i just get.

i just get worried i just get like um. you know i just wonder has there ever. been a time and place in history but. but i guess you answered it that some. people used to be killed for being. for saying with that oh that was the. norm wanted to say like. free free expression is that's not. common. but do you worry that we're we're like. kind of cornering our. any of our freedom of speech or anything. or am i just just scared. well i worry enough about it so that it.

scares me. to talk about certain things and it. isn't obvious to me that that's for the. best. i don't think your fear is unwarranted i. also think that. freedom of speech is sufficiently. threatening so that the probability that. it will be curtailed is always high. and and that we have to what is it the. price of freedom is eternal vigilance i. think i've got that right i don't. remember who i said it but.

who said it but. and then so you might think well what. should you talk about and what shouldn't. you. and i think that depends to a large. degree on your conscience. you know if you're interested in. something you're trying to figure it out. if you thwart that then you thwart the. part of yourself that's interested in. things and trying to figure them out. and i can't see that's for the best for. anyone and. i do believe that all things considered. free speech is a lesser evil than.

constrained speech because. someone has to decide what the content. of the speech is going to be and. it's i don't see that we should give. that power over to someone. um lightly no matter who they are. partly because things change too just. because something happened to be the. case a year ago doesn't mean that it's. the right solution now. and so we we we have to engage in these. sorts of discussions to keep everything. up to date.

you know there's conformity and that's. back to rule one. there's conformity in social. institutions hooray. abide by them but the underlying. environment shifts around. and so sometimes the traditions of the. past are no longer. functional and have to be updated and. the only way we can figure out when. that's going to happen is by. communicating about it and. so you don't want to constrain that. because we all end up out of date and. and paralyzed yeah so.

yeah i think there's a feeling of maybe. a fear of like paralyzation or something. i guess it's not as much a reality now. that i think more about it as much as it. is just kind of a fear. um but also a fear to speak up so i. think i just feel afraid to talk about. things sometimes or to even raise my. hand and ask. questions because of things i've seen of. people being. you know you know deep certainly more. like that than. yes it's certainly more like that than. it was ten years ago or twenty years ago. i certainly feel that way much more so.

that's. what happens in history when that. happens is that does things usually. like uh work out okay. i guess so because we're here. that's what we hope for i guess it. depends on whether or not we let the. fear stop us. yeah right and if enough people let the. fear stop us then that won't be good. yeah so we'll try not to do that. and hope that suffices yeah i'm gonna.

try not to do that. um i had a question about um. so i noticed uh whenever i was young. growing up. like um i was thinking about like my. first kiss when i was growing up you. know when i was a kid and. and um and i noticed as i get older and. get involved with women and. that sometimes i i i feel like i spend. so much time. trying to kind of recreate the initial.

moments that i had like in that initial. kiss moment that i had you know. like i remember my first kiss like when. i was moving towards her face i just. remember feeling like. like the ships were crossing the troy. and i remember feeling like. you know like sparta and just like you. know like denzel washington was there. like everything was going on inside of. my body you know it was like every. the whole like you know the like. everything was there you know the. grand canyon was there and everything. was there in this moment like watching.

me just. being a part like it was in my skin. waiting to see if i could. land this kiss with this girl and i. think i romanticized sometimes like. moments like that. that's great in my future that i'll. never be able to get back to those. moments you know like um. that was great look like i still chase. that high i still chase that novelty you. know what i'm saying like. even now and no moment now will ever. live up to those initial moments but. sometimes i'm obsessed with the feelings. that were.

in the the novelty of. youth and it's like i'm constantly. trying to recreate those and nothing. ever suffices. and so everything sometimes feels like a. little bit of a. exhale yeah well i. i wrote about that in two chapters in in. beyond order in. it's rule eight i believe which is make. one room in your house as be. in your home as beautiful as possible. and. rule 10 which is plan and work.

diligently to maintain the romance in. your relationship. and both of them focus. to some degree on the nature of the. experience that you just described. you know there's a certain pristine. um there's a pristine and transcendent. reality to experiences of. of being in love and experiences that. are associated with childhood before. everything becomes stale with repetition.

yeah. and part of the question of life is to. how to rekindle that. so that so that you can and it's even. associated with what we were talking. about earlier which is that nostalgia. for more primitive conditions. um i in in rule eight i suggested that. people cultivate a relationship with. beauty. because that is one way of inviting that. that feeling of awe i mean i think you. did such a great. job of describing how significant that.

first kiss was you know oh yeah even. tarzan over there. what's that even tarzan was there now. that i think about it. right right well all romance all the. the romantic tropes all the movies focus. on exactly that experience. you know can you recreate that within. the confines of an ongoing relationship. well it takes a tremendous amount of. effort it's not. that's the thing about youth is you get. these gifts right.

when you're older you have to work at it. but it's worth working at. and you can you can set up romance in a. permanent relationship that can be. extraordinarily intense if you're. if you want that and if you're willing. to work for it. yeah and it's worth it because otherwise. you abandon it and that's not good and. the same. goes for beauty one of the great things. that artists do. is remind us of what's right in front of. us. because as you get older what you see is.

more and more memory and less and less. of the thing itself. and an artist comes along if he's a real. artist just whacks you on the side of. the head and says. no look at it this way and you look at. it that way and you think oh yes. that's now i remember yeah and. yeah i like chapter go ahead sorry and i. haven't gotten to eight and ten i'm. stuck i'm stuck in three. i'm not i didn't mean to be but there's. a lot of big word you gotta be it's a. time. it takes a little time hey no problem um.

um i like chapter 8 i think better than. any of the other chapters because. it does concentrate on this experience. of of youth and. and the the ability to be immersed. so completely that's characteristic of. childhood and. and does there's an idea you know that. the kingdom of heaven is. something that's already inhabited by. children. right unless you become as little. children you'll know you'll know in no.

wise enter the kingdom of heaven and. that is a it's a poetic echo of the fact. that those experiences are possible but. with effort and discipline and aim. you can reduplicate them at least to. some degree in your adult life and. that's definitely worth. that that can be worth the effort. especially if you find yourself. longing for it yeah yeah a lot of i mean. even i remember. after our last conversation a lot of. things come down to effort really. and really living um you know.

uh effortly living. you know because living after a while it. becomes sometimes especially in this. in in in our country that you're kind of. floating in a. you know in a little bit of a cushy. river kind of you know so i think yeah. if you really want to. live if you really want to challenge. your soul and get into whatever's in you. or or experience anything. experience some things more than.

the gratis that is kind of like. cloaked on us each day in america then. you have to really make an effort um. one of the things i noticed in that's. relevant to that. um i think you. need a meaning to sustain you in life. because life is difficult and so the. meaning has to be proportional to the. difficulty i think everyone knows that.

and. wants that um. whenever i talk to audiences about that. and pointed out that. it's through the adoption of. responsibility that you're most likely. to encounter those meanings. the audiences would generally go silent. because that isn't an equation that's. often made. right is that well you need meaning. that's better than happiness. happiness is a consequence i would say a. fortunate consequence of the pursuit of.

something deeply meaningful but. almost everything that's deeply. meaningful requires. the willingness to adopt responsibility. and so that's a good thing to know. because. you might ask yourself well why should i. adopt responsibility and the answer to. that seems to be something like. wow well it it deepens your life because. i want meaning i want something more. no it's a great because i think a lot of. us are swimming around. thinking that something meaningful will. show up there's so many there's so much.

advertising and so much. this is important this means something. this is valuable. and a lot of it is um is pyrite man it's. pyrite. um do you remember your first kiss dr. peterson was it in canada. yes it was certainly in canada my man. i remember the first time i held hands. with my. the woman who became my wife wow were. you guys outdoors or indoors.

it was high school graduation and she. had been a friend of mine but that was. our first. date and that was an unparalleled thrill. i would say so but i was able to. duplicate that many times in our. marriage thank god with her. cooperation and participation it was. something we really concentrated on. making time for romance once you get. married. romance sort of becomes number 11 on a.

list of 10. um necessities you know it's still up. there but it gets pushed out by. everyday concerns work and domestic. responsibilities and children and all of. that. um you have to force it back up into the. top three or four and. you know that also stabilizes your. relationship across time and is good for. your kids and good for you. so that's that's worth. that's worth the work and it's really. useful to know that it is work.

you need it is work it's not just going. to happen and the fact that it isn't. happening for you. it doesn't mean that there's something. wrong with you it just means that. it's it's work you you have to aim at it. you have to aim at it do you remember if. you kind of did you reach for your wife. saying or did she make that first. initial move do you remember no. yes i do remember actually she took my. hand. that's cool man she was much more.

confident in that regard at that time. than me and probably still now for that. matter. i know you speak a lot about your. granddaughter in your book. like not a ton but there's a couple. moments so far that i've noticed where. you kind of reference her or watching a. child grow. um and some things that they learn what. is that your first grandchild that you. have now. yes i have another one now i have two. but she was the first. how um has it changed any of your views.

of being like alive or the importance of. family or just maybe just any of your. do you notice anything different in your. heart or your brain. obviously there's going to be some stuff. in your heart that's obvious but. has any of your it's mostly cemented. home the. notion i had that there's there's really. nothing. in the final analysis there's. there's your there's the car your career.

and your family. you know and your family is half your. life. or more and. i don't know what you do when you're old. if you don't have grandchildren. you know i mean it's not like they. occupy all my time but. it it would be it'd be such a hole there. yeah oh i can imagine yeah sitting there. by yourself and just doing solitaire. maybe or something you know. well and not being able to interact with.

children. yeah because children are revitalizing. as well as being exhausting and. frustrating in all of those things but. but they are revitalizing and they're. like fire you know if if you put a. two-year-old among a group of 75. year olds the 75 year olds don't do. anything but watch the two-year-old. they're fascinated by by the child and. to see all that new potential coming to. manifest itself. i mean those are the sorts of things. that cultures tell you you know.

get married stick together well why well. it's for the children but that's to your. benefit as well and then it's for the. grandchildren because that's to your. benefit as well it's a. it's a good long-term solution. even though it's very difficult and. requires all sorts of sacrifice and but. you lose that and you get all fractured. up and it isn't obvious to me what. what you do then when as you age. so it's made me more aware even of the. of the great privilege of.

having a family that loves you. and how valuable that is above. everything else. yeah that's powerful man it's uh i can. imagine i don't have that yet but. sometimes i feel myself like. i constantly kind of feel myself coming. to some of the same. like i'm in a cul-de-sac and i think. sometimes it's what i'm looking for is. probably a family of my own you know i'm. actually i've had fear about kind of.

taking some of those next steps but i. think. some of what i am looking for is just. more a sense of like this is my. tribe or this is my group or this is. i don't know something i can feel it. kind of um. yeah well if you didn't people who felt. that had children and that's how we're. all here. so yeah yeah it's a. it's a huge part it's a huge part of. life and it gets a bad rap.

it's a responsibility wrap again it's. like well you know. can you really be with one person for. the rest of your life and. is that realistic now that people live. so long and well i don't know if it's. realistic or if you can be with one. person for the rest of your life but. there are definite coming up with a. better alternative is no. simple matter and it's a. blessing to have young people around. that care whether you're alive. you know as you get older and so.

i wouldn't i don't think it's a good. idea to deny yourself that. that's been a real gift yes well and you. should you know. [Music]. this chapter about romance in. relationships might be particularly. useful to you if you're thinking about. having a family because. i do believe that it's possible to keep. that romantic. vision alive you have to make it a name. like you have to really work at it you. think well what do i want how would i. like to have a date with my wife.

well what would you like to see her wear. how would you like to arrange the music. you know. all of these things people are afraid to. attend to them. but if you attend to them you can get. good at it and then you can make. something magical and. then the magic that you can create with. the same person over and over stops you. from being frustrated that. it's the same person because yes.

so and i think you need to know that. that's possible. yeah yeah man i think sometimes we just. don't hear that kind of stuff enough you. know. no i don't remind her i know we don't. remind. um all right one more question i wanted. to ask you this was about. uh you know i've i've been in recovery. for like five years i guess and i've. struggled recently in the past year. during the pandemic um. but i'm still a strong believer in. recovery and in the 12 steps of recovery.

um why do you feel like the 12 steps of. recovery or the 12 steps work. well for so many people and. do you think that that's the best. modality to uh. to obtain sobriety for um for. for addicts well it isn't obvious that. there's a good alternative. so that's the first thing if aaa. doesn't work it isn't like there's a. preferable treatment.

most people cease alcohol use. on their own without medical. intervention we don't know why although. religious transformation. seems to be one and of course the 12. steps capitalizes on that. i think that it's quite an intelligent. program psychologically speaking you. know. first of all you have to make a moral. inventory you have to figure out. what's wrong in your life which would. obviously include the alcohol misuse.

you have to rectify that take. responsibility for it try to try to. chart out a new course. also provided with a social structure. which is really useful when you're. trying to stop drinking because it's all. very probable that most of your friends. are going to be. drinkers and so that leaves not only do. you stop drinking but you stop. associating with your friends or maybe. even with your family members. that's really hard yeah so you know an. aaa. doesn't seem to be an exploitative.

organization. it's all volunteers um. as and speaking strictly clinically. there it isn't obvious that there's a. better alternative if you were being. strictly scientific you'd say well. there's never been controlled trials of. a. a where you randomly assign people to. the aaa group. and to the non-aa group or another. treatment to see head to head which. works better. and there's the problem that many people.

drop out and so you can't tell exactly. what the success rate is but. but that's it in some sense a technical. argument. um it also isn't clear to me that aa. does people harm. right right which is also really. important because. many medical treatments can produce harm. and so the worst you could say is well. maybe it won't work. um so yeah and that's not that big of a. risk.

especially already comparatively. speaking. yes yeah if you're already all sick or. something you know even. or so what do you think. what do you think it was that enabled. you to stop drinking. like why did you manage it what did you. use. as an alternative well i noticed when i. went well my problem was cocaine. but i worried that if i drank i would do. cocaine i never had a problem. drinking but i was worried that one. could lead to the other. yes undoubtedly i think well.

one thing it gave me a place where i. realized that. other people were sharing their thoughts. and feelings and i'd never been in that. kind of environment before. and so to so that was one of the big. things was the emotional sobriety. um and then it helped me having a. relationship with a higher power which. i'd never really had. right and what difference did that make. do you think. man that made it was the first time in.

my life i. i really i i felt like something cared. about me unconditionally. and you experienced that oh and i. experienced at a level that shook me man. like i've got electrocuted like it was. yeah that a god just that this invi that. some invisible. thing cared about me at a level that i. could never even imagine. and that no matter if i was good or bad. or if i did something.

naughty or nice or cinnamon or spice man. that this thing loved me. and that was uh i just never felt that. before so. for there to be a way to get to that. feeling that's what made. recovery feel like important to me i. think. yeah well to have an experience like. that is a real gift yeah. it was just it was powerful um. dr peterson i don't want to take up a. ton of your time man but i just. i think once again it just reminded me.

that life is a program of effort. you know um and if we want to see. changes and if we want to. experience something different than the. circle or the even the. the figure eight that we're in or even. the trapezoid that we're in that we have. to. that we gotta uh we gotta. make an effort you know we really gotta. make it good talking to you. like it was last time appreciate it very. much you too jordan thank you so much.

for your time and uh congrats on the new. book and i look forward to finishing it. and um you look great. congratulations on your continued. success you too brother i'll chat soon. all right all right cheers good talking. with you thank you now i'm just floating. on the breeze and i feel. i'm falling like these leaves i must be. cornerstone. oh but when i reach that ground i'll. share this piece of mind i found i can.

feel it. but it's gonna take a little. time for me to set that parking brake. and let myself on my heart. shine that light on me. i'll sit and tell you my story.

[Music]. and now i've been moving way too fast on. the runaway train with a heavy load of. my. pants. and these rails that i've been riding on. they want so thin that they're damn. they're gone my gum.