Dr. Gabor Maté | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #538

we have some upcoming tour dates there. in Colorado Springs in Colorado Casper. Wyoming Billings Montana and Missoula. Montana Bloomington Indiana Columbus. Ohio Champagne Illinois over there in a. fighting align eye area Grand Rapids. Michigan Lafayette Louisiana and bont. Texas you can get all your tickets at. theovon. docomo are and thank you so much for the.

support today's guest is a physician and. an author his Works explore such topics. like stress trauma addiction. developmental psychology and more he has. a new book called The Myth of normal. trauma illness and healing in a toxic. culture I'm grateful today to spend time. with Dr Gabor mate.

[Music]. me I'll sit and tell you my. stories. shine on. me and I will find a. [Applause]. song I Saw You interview with Donald. Trump oh you did and.

um I was actually quite struck I I saw. the segment on his brother's alcoholism. yeah and um I found. him. unusually without bombast and almost. tender and very uh vulnerable and. and just just kind of humble you know. which is not how usually he comes across. yeah yeah I yeah I was trying to just. talk to him about something that felt.

pretty normal you know yeah but he's. also expressed interest in you and and. your brother and yeah I thought it was. sweet of him as sweet as he could be. yeah you know I think I well look when. you read further in the book I actually. talk about him really his childhood. trauma yeah oh you do him and Hillary. clintons both oh wow I didn't know that. yeah oh that's cool I'm looking forward. to that yeah yeah I just yeah it's like. especially like just as a regular person. in the world you kind of you want to try. to get a feel for somebody I I he's a.

poster boy for trauma yeah in my view. yeah I I wouldn't I wouldn't be. surprised if they have a lot if there's. a lot of it there I mean his brother had. addiction and like and and even him I. think trying to learn about addiction I. wish I could I wish I would have stayed. in that conversation a little bit more. um with Donald and and tried to share. some thoughts and things that I had not. thoughts but a little bit more. explanation about addiction from my own. perspective yeah know well that would.

have been an interesting conversation. yeah just to let him know that it wasn't. something his brother like it wasn't. like his brother just couldn't stop. drinking no you know no that he had. other things inside of him that. prevented him from doing that exactly. yeah and I really wish that uh if I. could go back but the one of the things. that's been tough for me is just you get. into certain conversations and I'm still. learning how to be in conversation. sometimes so sometimes it's um you know. you're learn you know you're learning oh. on the stove we're always learning yeah.

yeah we're always learning um Gabor. that's how you say it Gabor Gabor yeah. Theo nice to meet you today Mr mate and. thanks for coming thank you my pleasure. yep and thanks for sharing this book man. um this is your book the methan normal. trauma illness and healing in a toxic. culture yeah um you. believe that we are kind of a sick. culture what makes you believe that.

well or like what proof do you have of. that well so 70% of American adults earn. at least on one medication 70% 40% are. on two medications or more the number of. children being diagnosed with all manner. of uh dysfunctions disorders mental. health challenges like ADHD. self-cutting um addictions anxiety. depression childhood suicide is keeps. going up in the United States annually.

twice as many people die of overdoses as. died in the Iraq Vietnam and Afghan Wars. put together this is every year wow. um uh the life expectancy particularly. of white men has gone down due to. suicide and and Drug overdoses I mean I. could go the number of autoimmune I. could go on on it forever but just. statistically uh there's more and more.

evidence of illness and dysfunction yeah. yeah I mean the the overdosing alone is. unbelievable you know the fact that. that's that that's even just become a. common thing in our society is it's. heartbreaking for so many uh it's. heartbreaking for so many and so many. people's families just the residual. effect of suicide or overdose it's like. we don't even think about those numbers. don't even take into the ripple effect. of um of people losing a loved one you. know absolutely I mean the that are.

being devastated and um I mean I used to. work with what is North America's most. concentrated area of drug use in. Vancouver British Columbia and I know. you were there a month ago yeah we went. down on Catchings is that right the. Hastings Hastings yeah we went down on. Hastings just to take a drive and see. well so that's where I used to work wow. and for for 12 years as a physician and. um everybody down there was severely. traumatized in childhood and their. addictions were all.

um a response to immense emotional pain. that they didn't know how else to handle. um not to mention the racial aspect like. 30% of my clients are indigenous whereas. they only make up 5% of the Canadian. population so so the more you suffer. either socially or or individually the. more likely you are to escape in the. soothing and the relief that that drugs. or other addictions offer so if you look. at American society you really got to be.

asking why are so many people having to. escape from reality yeah and we're going. to get into good stuff I have a good. plan today I'm prepared some stuff I. have some questions that I even wrote. down that are on cards just cuz um I. want to make sure that we get the best. information that we can for our guest. today I think it's really important um. one of the things that you talk about in. the book um that's causing a lot of. sickness is trauma yeah and then more. specifically unprocessed trauma yeah. help me Define those a little bit for.

our audience sure so trauma is one of. these words that everybody um throws. around yeah it's a buzz word yeah so. let's just Define it uh so trauma. literally comes from the Greek word for. wound or wounding so trauma is a wound. uh whether it's a physical wound or. psychological wound in this case we're. talking about emotional wounds that. haven't healed so trauma is an unhealed. wound uh that you sustain in childhood. but then it stays with you and it. directly causes inflammation in the body.

it affects how your genes function how. your chromosomes function it stresses. your organs it creates all kinds of. physiological problems on the emotional. level it um instills a lot of pain in. you that you try to escape from and one. of the ways you try to escape for. example is through drug use or or to. other kinds of addictions or through. self-cutting or bulimia or any you know. pornography or whatever um. it also makes you suppress disconnects.

you from your own emotions because as a. when a child is being traumatized it's. too painful to connect to themselves so. they disconnect and that disconnecting. causes all kinds of problems in terms of. illness mental and physical so the. impacts of trauma are vast and quite. underrecognized. indeed and and you talk about trauma. also as not being seen and known yeah so.

here you have we have to understand what. are the needs of the human child so. everybody understands that the child. needs to be physically cared for cleaned. up fed and sheltered and so on children. according to Evolution also of emotional. needs that they're born with one of them. is being just accepted and valued for. exactly who they are and being seen. rather than being forced to be something. that the parents want them to be yeah. and a lot of parents in this Society not.

because they don't love their kids but. because they're so stressed have just a. hard time seeing their kids I had. trouble seeing my kids wow and that had. an impact on them and not cuz I wasn't. devoted because I didn't love them just. cuz because of my own trauma I couldn't. even see myself. oh man I can relate so much to what I. can relate so much to that yeah it's. like it's funny cuz I I work as a. comedian and for like I grew up in a.

kind of a traumatic home like my my mom. was very busy we had she had four. children and um yeah I feel like she. never looked at me I feel like she never. kind of put her hands on me I feel like. she just and she didn't know how I guess. you know it's okay yeah I just always. felt like I wasn't seen and how do and. how do you suppose that affected you. well I ended up being becoming a. comedian I I felt like I started I had. to find some way to be seen I had to.

do something you know to get someone to. see me cuz I needed to survive you know. I needed to feel alive you know you know. what's funny about comedians may I say. something about them yeah I I looked at. the biographies of a number of comedians. what you're talking about is like a. common theme I looked at Robin. Williams who's brilliant brilliant comic. and one of the reasons he developed his. humor was to make his mother laugh as a. way of having his mother pay attention. to him Gilda Radner who dieded of.

ovarian cancer the same thing wow so. that they had the innate. talent but then they use that talent to. be seen and valued where they should. have been valued with without Talent no. matter what yeah yeah it's funny a few. years ago I thought it's like I'm kind. of a late bloomer like I only realized. that like I been I go to recovery. meetings and stuff like that I'm in AA. and I only realized a few years years. ago it started to hit me like did I even.

want to be a. comedian or did I just at some early. Point develop having to get attention. yeah because I need you know and then so. if that's the case then who did I really. want it what you know who would what. would I have been yeah if I didn't do. that and not saying that not saying that. I'm not grateful and I don't love being. a comedian it's been it's been a. blessing but but it's.

like if I created that yeah okay I have. to be this thing to for you to see me. then who created that you know like who. like was there a different me that was. supposed to be there but then I created. this well that's that's the Dilemma for. so many of us is that as a result of. childhood wounding we have to make. ourselves into something that the world. will accept and value um like looking at. in my case I love having been a.

physician and that's my calling but the. big part of it wasn't just that I wanted. to help Humanity or heal people it's. also I needed to be important now why. did they need to be important because as. an infant I got the message that I. wasn't yeah and and so now. then and that creates a kind of an. addiction because you have to keep. proving to yourself how important you. are and how valuable you are but nobody. should have to prove how valuable they. are that's just our birth right that we. exist we have the right to be here yeah.

that God chose us or that the energies. of the world chose us and and said I'm. going to put you here like a with a fine. pen I'm going to put you in the world. yeah and and I did it on purpose and and. the world it was built to take care of. you and to nurture you and to make you. feel welcome as you are and and if you. actually look at and this has been. studied quite extensively how indigenous. people or tribal people people close to. the land rear their kids that's exactly.

how they rear their kids like they give. their children a deep sense of. acceptance they hold them they carry. them everywhere oh yeah all the. paintings you see of a Native Americans. they always somebody's got a kid on them. they got them in a napsack they got them. right they got them and they tend not to. hit their kids yeah you know yeah you. never seen a movie about a Native. American beating his children I don't. think yeah yeah so I mean so what you're. describing is actually how he evolved. and part of the toxicity in my view of.

our culture is we' gone so we've gone so. far away from our nature when it comes. to how we re children and again not. because of lack of Parental devotion but. because of so much parental stress yeah. oh yeah I think that was it my mom. couldn't see us cuz she had other things. she had to see first yeah and you know. and uh yeah and not just me but so many. people it's like yeah we've created a. society or our society has created a way. of life where. um now it's like Bo both parents work in.

so many cases so yeah and that alone. just feels. like it just shouldn't be that way it's. like well if you look at through our. Evolution through millions of years and. hundreds of thousands of years of human. evolution children were always with. their parents that's how nature designed. it yeah now if that's not possible in. today's society at least then we have to. compensate for it but we've forgotten.

that children need that yeah so now when. they send to dayc carees and schools. it's all about behavior and it's all. about um fitting in not about accepting. the child and nurturing the child. innate sense of who they are so we all. end up disconnected from ourselves then. we get to a certain stage in life we're. wondering whose life am I leading anyway. yeah wow yeah and it's funny you say. like fitting in it's like yeah like.

you're like your child's not fitting in. because the the it's two puzzle pieces. are the parents you know or the family. that's and not to say it shouldn't be. able to spend time with other children. and be in and that that our schools are. bad or anything but it's the fact that. um they need to fit in there first and. then I think it's probably easier for. children to fit in in other places in. the world well that's um but the fitting. in happens naturally when you're when. you accepted you know um listen the.

schools I'll tell you something one of. the I'm talking science here one of the. essential needs of all mammals is play. in our brain there's circuitry for play. you can see it Dolphins play little. elephants play bear cobs lion CBS. puppies kittens they all play why play. is essential for brain development it's. far more important than academic. learning so in the schools they have to. be a lot more play a lot more freedom.

for the kids to be themselves a lot more. freedom to move around and then those. kids will be naturally curious and. interested in learning but here we try. to put the cart before the horse we try. and stuff them full of knowledge skills. and behavioral control rather than. again promoting the conditions for. healthy brain development so the schools. actually they intend well but they. really don't get it when it comes to. what do children actually need well I.

think it's just an O and that's just. part of it's like our whole society is. it you know I wonder sometimes where we. did we go completely off the rails in a. direction and and or a series of. directions you know um that have kind of. put us where we are um I want to get. this statement right right here sure um. why is a trauma event different from. other stressful events like what makes. it a trauma like some events could be.

traumatic for some people and the same. event not traumatic for others what. exactly is it about the Mind Body Soul. that makes the event traumatic or like. what is the mechanism right great. question so every traumatic event is. stressful but not every stressful event. is. traumatic. [Music]. so you invited me on your show and. uh for some reason I don't show up and. you had this studio arranged that might.

stress you but it doesn't traumatize you. right it doesn't leave you with a. permanent wound so it's traumatic if it. leaves you with a wound and if that. wound leaves you more constricted and. more afraid and more suspicious and less. comfortable with yourself um more um. hostile to other people um less. comfortable in the world then it's. traumatic no n every stressful event. will have that effect but if if it does. then it's traumatic if it makes a wound.

if it makes a wound that's what makes it. traumatic cuz a wound is sensitive even. if you think of a wound yeah and if it's. not healed properly yeah then it's. always a problem well there's two yeah. and and and and there's two way ways of. wound can show up one is just an open. wound and if you touch it ow so I have. certain emotional wounds and well into. my 70s or even I'm 80 now you know say. my you look great well thanks uh it's.

all the. Botox and the advenal uh no. it's and in my in my 55-year-old. marriage with my wife she might say. something or react in some way that. touches an old wound and all of a sudden. I'm not this 80-year-old guy I'm this. one-year-old kid responding you know. because that wound is sort of I'm not. giving an excuse here I'm just saying. that that's the challenge you know so so. in one sense a a wound is a a trauma is.

an open wound that you touch it ow. that's the one thing but then the other. thing that happens to wounds is they. scar over now scar tissue is thick it's. hard it doesn't grow it has no nerve. ending so it's insensitive so we get. hardened and you can either get. extremely sensitive or very hardened or. both or both depending on you know and. when you talk about hardened criminals. guess what hardened.

them is that they were so wounded and. childood again I'm not making excuses. I'm just telling you what the sign shows. yeah and so then the question is then. how do we treat each. other in a society where so many of us. carry. wounds let's talk a little bit about. unprocessed trauma so you talk about. emotional isolation yeah as being. something that really negatively. nurtures um unprocessed trauma so once.

you hurt as a child you tend not to. trust other people so you could be in. the middle of a crowd and be laughing. and interacting but still feel quite. alone emotionally maybe you've had that. feeling oh yeah you know and that. emotional isolation itself then has. effects on your body and on your mind so. the people who are lonely and and and. the the US Surgeon General Dr Admiral.

Vic Murthy just issued a paper on. loneliness in the United States and. loneliness and there's an epidemic of. loneliness people are describing us as. lonely in much higher numbers as they. did 20 40 years ago no loneliness is as. much of a risk factor for physiological. illness as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. really yeah. so loneliness is both a manifestation of. trauma mhm and a cause of tremendous.

stress which then undermines. physiological and mental health okay say. that to me one more time so so. loneliness is both an outcome of trauma. so it's an outcome of trauma so. something traumatic happened it wasn't. processed properly and then now you you. will feel lonely you will feel lonely. you will isolate because. look if I am always being a nice guy so. that you will like. me but inside I'm feeling all these.

emotions that I'm not sharing with you. that's pretty lonely even though you. might like me because I'm showing you. this nice sight of myself right that's. not really me that's not me there was a. study done in Australia or at least a I. used to work in paliative care as a. doctor looking after to dying people in. Australia there was a paliative care. nurse who wrote a book called the top. five regrets of dying people these are. people that were dying before their time. like I used to look after of cancer or. chronic neurological illness you know.

what the top regard of dying people was. that they didn't have the courage to be. themselves and and and and the third top. regret was that they didn't have the. courage to express their emotions they. pretended to be happy when they were not. and so on so the question for the rest. of us is do we want to wait till some. terminant illness wakes us up or should. we just confront the fact that in so. many ways we're afraid to be authentic. cuz we're so afraid of being rejected.

and as children we didn't have much. Choice as adults can we develop that. freedom to be. ourselves. wow yeah it's like um yeah it's it's. amazing that what your feelings or your. heart or your mind will like want you to. do sometimes but then this other smoke. comes in this yeah that feels stronger. yeah sometimes and it um it clouds it.

almost clouds the that feeling away yeah. you know well it does yeah and and and. am I interrupting sorry no uh I I just. wanted to um you said that in the book. that if you have a trauma that you can't. process you essentially have the trauma. of unprocessed trauma yeah so now you've. had a trauma that's happened yeah and. then if you can't process it now you. have almost a new trauma of of. unprocessed trauma well that's they have. the on ongoing wound which is what.

trauma means uh now. look let's take an extreme example okay. let's say a child is being sexually. abused so what what were their instincts. tell them to do well their instincts. would say fight. back or run. away or ask for help for God's sakes but. by De by definition none of of those. options are available to the child so.

the only way they can survive is to. disconnect from. themselves and that disconnection they. get wired into the nervous system into. the brain and every time they even think. of being. themselves as you just described they. get scared because being themselves was. because had they fought back had they. tried to escape it would have even worse. for them so that this connection from. the self was the only way they survived.

now every time as an adult even think of. being authentic that fear comes. up and it may not even come up for them. like in their W awake mind it's almost. like it comes up at a level where you. don't even realize like um that. something's pulling the strings in the. distance that's what's pretty remarkable. but pulling the strings is exactly the. right analogy um there's a. neurobiologist neuroscientist quite well. known at Stanford University Robert sski.

who wrote a book recently called. determined by which he means. predetermined he basically says there's. no such thing as free will because we're. so conditioned by our biology our. culture and our early. experiences and he's almost right. because what he's talking about is as. you say we're pulled by these invisible. strings of our ownc conscious that were. programmed into us even before we were. born Even in our mother's wombs and. so it's just a life I find it personally.

a. lifetime's. challenge to cut the. strings and to actually be in the. present moment as an adult person. connected to myself let me tell you it's. your life LS. work yeah no I I I feel you it's funny. like I didn't even know that. I I didn't know that might sound crazy I. didn't even I exist isted and I. everything was fine in my life but yeah.

I was having trouble like building. relationships there were just things. that I didn't have any real tools to to. make my life evolve and so I started to. think well what is going on here and. then um you know with a lot of therapy. and different modalities of therapy I. went more into like my past and I. started to see like oh I see yeah it's. because of these you know these things. that have happened and then I never. processed them that uh some of them are. still pulling me back you know some of. them are still holding me and and until.

you did process them what Freedom did. you actually have right like be like. puppets on a string oh and and yeah and. and and I was a almost a figment of it's. funny people say a figment of your. imagination that's almost what I was. sometimes I felt like I was something. that my mind or that my soul or whatever. had created to best face Persona yes did. you ever read Pinocchio as a kid oh yeah. japeta dude yeah yeah yeah now do you. remember what when puka becomes a real.

boy and he looks at his puppet self and. he says I was so foolish when I was a. puppet but we're all foolish when we're. puppets we're not stupid right but we're. unaware yeah you know yeah. unaware man I've been taking this all. weekend when I'm touring on the road and. in and out of buses and airports and. stuff I get. dehydrated that's why I use use Liquid. IV you can just get some water and you.

crack open a packet put it in there bam. hydrate. yourself there's so much to love about. liquid IV's new hydration multiplier and. immune support mango passion fruit. flavor with five times the daily value. of vitamin C and three times the. electrolytes of the leading sports drink. you can give your body the immune. support it needs while treating yourself.

to a taste of the tropics support. everyday Wellness with liquid IV I do. get 20% off your first order of liquid. IV when you go to liquid iv.com and use. code Theo at checkout that's 20% off. your first order when you shop better. hydration today using promo code. Theo liquid i.com. every device we use is getting smarter.

your watch can now tell the time but. also tell you how many steps you've. taken the world keeps getting smarter. your e-commerce business should too. whether you're looking for incredible. efficiency or your business has outgrown. your old shipping Solutions ship station. helps you take the next step ship. station helps you achieve exceptional. shipping efficiency with a robust.

all-in-one order fulfillment system that. integrates with over 180 of the most. popular e-commerce platforms. marketplaces and carriers deliver a. better customer service with. industry-leading features that help you. find the best carrier rates print labels. and make customer service a breeze lead. your e-commerce business into a smarter. future with the shipping software that. deliver. switch to shipstation today go to.

shipstation.com and use code Theo to. sign up for your free 60-day trial. that's. shipstation.com code. Theo let's personalize this a little bit. so what was the trauma in your life that. uh started you on this. journey well. um what started me on the journey was. well into adulthood um I for a long time.

I didn't realize I was traumatized just. like you didn't I just was a popular on. the string in some ways you know and I. was successful I was a well respected. family doctor but I was unhappy I felt I. had potential that I hadn't even nearly. touched and I had no idea how to get. there um my marriage had difficulties a. lot of um. tension my children were. facing their challenges and in some.

ways they were even afraid of me you. know and uh like afraid of your energy. afraid of like afraid of my sudden. outbursts of of of uncontrolled I don't. mean physical violence I mean uh just. outbursts of of of of rage you know. anger yeah you know Rel to that and uh. my son Daniel who helped me write the. myth of normal uh he said in the book.

that the floor was never the floor he. never knew when the floor might. disappear in other words when the loving. and and devoted and playful parents. might all of a sudden erupt in one of. their dramas and the kids are there. watching this. um hurricane sweep through the house. emotionally speaking well that doesn't. create a basis of trust or or security. and it's not because we didn't love our. kids it's it's not because we didn't do.

our best you know. so looking at all that at some point I. had to start asking like you had to. start asking well what's going on here. and that's when I started looking at. what happened to me as a kid what were. you like as a kid what was I like yeah. um I was very smart um oh yeah I've. heard you say I've heard you refer to. yourself as smart child you like to. rebel I I was a rebel yeah in uh in. communist Hungary um you really have to. follow the rules and the teacher at some.

point sent a warning to my parents. saying that he better watch it cuz he. agitates his. classmates yeah I loved getting those. you know um I uh I was very I was very. thoughtful I wet my bed till I was 13. dude I wet my bed I think till I was 26. oh wow okay and that does go back to. Childhood trauma Early Childhood trauma. yeah when I was 8year old old uh my. mother took me to a psychologist.

and psychologist took my history you. know Jewish infant born under the Nazis. or living my first year under the Nazi. occupation and all the horrors and then. a separation from my mother for 6 weeks. and she said he said to the my mom Madam. if the only problem this kid has is that. he waits his bed you're very fortunate. well I can tell you that's not the only. problem that I had so I on the one hand. I was highly functioning mhm.

um and but on the other hand I had all. this. unseen stuff that erupted later on yeah. it's funny you don't even know it's. there especially when you're a kid you. don't know you you don't know yeah you. don't know you don't know that it's. there and then later you have to um it's. almost like a fire that starts when. you're. young but you don't the smoke doesn't. show up for me until my 30s and I was. like where the is all this smoke coming.

from that's exactly right that's what. happened to me and then I had to go back. and look at it yeah it's like yeah. unprocessed trauma it's like yeah it's. like a f like imagine starting a fire. but no smoke comes out of it yeah that's. unprocessed trauma well the does that. make sense or it doesn't no it makes. total sense because what happens is like. when you said earlier you were fine the. heck you were fine you thought you were. fine right and and that's because we. pushed down all the r age that we never. expressed as kids we pushed on the pain.

we pushed on the isolation we pretend. and we can function in the world in ways. that the world can even respect and. reward at this I mean look at we're. talking here in Hollywood look at all. the figures here that were great. successes Idols to millions and they had. these miserable inner lives I mean you. you can list hundred of them I got 50. I'm in my phone yeah yeah yeah yeah I.

mean it's and it's yeah it's funny that. if things if if if it's not the. foundation isn't there then you'll go. find it in the world right and um and. sometimes what you go find even though. you're just trying to replicate what you. didn't get when you were. young can be detrimental to you which is. why people get into um unhealthy. relationships because where to be most. want love when we were kids when we most.

wanted to be seen by whom by the people. that couldn't do it therefore we will. repeatedly look for people who can't see. us and hoping that this time they will. they will you know and uh yeah it's so. funny I have this I have this thing that. came into my head. like I could jump off of a cliff right. yeah but if I. [Music]. heard a mom come home from work a back. on the top of that Cliff I would find a. way to get or if I heard like high heels.

if I heard a woman's footsteps I'd find. a way to get back up there and and and. look towards her cuz you're looking for. the M cuz I'm just yeah it's like it may. sound crazy but yeah just like yeah it's. like if I can't help but look I can't. help but. Wonder does is that woman accept me you. know even with dating and all my. relationships I see it now it's like you. know I'm always kind of I'm even even in. just any relationship I'm just or any.

moment I'm just looking do you accept me. I can feel this do you accept me you. know. and. unfortunately. um it really gets in the way of male. female relationships oh yeah because uh. a lot of us I mean myself. included in my relationship with my. spouse in some ways I just wanted to be. mothered you know not just loved as an. but actually mothered on the one hand on.

the other hand I would resent it you. know because I don't want to be. controlled right you know so it puts the. woman into an impossible situation you. know oh yeah I would never date me yeah. oh je yeah I wouldn't even though I it's. getting better but it's still we still. we're it's getting better yeah you know. yeah those relationships are tough you. know yeah I have trouble committing in. Rel relationship you know I did a I I. did I did some iasus ceremonies people.

do plant medicine well hey you haven't. read the chapter there's one in here oh. yeah yeah dude chapter uh I think. it's chapter 31 so you had experience. with it I used to lead Retreats with it. no way bro yeah and. um what were you going to say what were. you going to say about it I was going to. say that when I when I did a plant. medicine Retreat that I realized one of. the reasons reasons why I've had trouble. getting relationships is cuz I'm still.

waiting for this original relationship. the perfect M yep and it's no blame it's. not a blame on my mom I don't I don't do. I don't do that anymore I I I I lament. some of the feelings from my youth but I. don't you know I love my mother and I'm. grateful that she did the best that she. could and I believe that she did um but. yeah I realize like I. can't there's just a part of me that. that it's just is still like I feel like. it's like a kid like standing on a dock.

like waiting for a boat to come that's. how I Envision a lot of times but so. there's a deep longing yeah I totally. understand that and then you try to get. someone else to fill it and they don't. even know what to do and you and for. years I didn't even know I was trying to. get somebody to fill it it just nothing. I couldn't figure it out there was that. emptiness oh it was wild man and my life. was still okay but just below right. below the surface level of my life there. was it was a precarious Foundation I. totally understand um I I found out.

about aasa after my book on addiction. got published in 2009 it's called in the. realm of hunger ghost and it's about how. addiction is not a genetic disease it's. a response to trauma as it affects the. brain and and and and the psyche but. after I published that book I I go on. book tour and people are asking me what. do you know about addiction and its. healing with Ias I I know nothing about. it next visit next next stop what do you.

know about it I said leave me alone. already I mean you just spent three. years writing the book and you're asking. me about the one thing I don't know. anything about and then finally said. somebody said you know you could. experience this up here in Vancouver. because it's a Peruvian Shaman who came. up there so I did the. aosa and I experienced pure love for the. first time in my life there's a little. baby in the tent who's. father had done that plant and the. mother was there with the baby and the.

baby started cooing and ooing and oing. and his tears of love just flow down my. face wow and my heart just. opened and I realized how closed my. heart had been because it was so bruised. so early that I closed it down not that. I deliberately closed it down but as a. way of protecting. it. and that. right away he said okay I I can work. with this to help people who are.

addicted. now I'm not here to Advocate its use. it's not for everybody it's certainly. not a. Panacea you know psychedelics is a whole. other conversation yeah same I'm not. saying anybody should they have their. place um they're not the answer and they. certainly not for everybody but in the. right context with the right guidance. the right. preparation they can really help people.

open up to parts of themselves that they. weren't even aware that they were there. yeah you know oh yeah I mean it's. fascinating I hope that that the. knowledge of that evolves over time you. know but that can also be scary because. some people go and get addicted to that. I've seen that happen with people and. I've seen it too because what people get. addicted to is not so much the. substances cuz the no nobody's going to. get addicted to IAS nasty you can't just. have some at a club yeah but what they. get addicted to is the heightened.

experience and if they don't know how to. integrate what they've learned into. their lives then they keep looking for. that um. elevated experience that takes them out. of their ordinary self yeah and so I. really think that that's one of the. risks of of psychedelic use is that you. start looking for that elevated. heightened or deepened experience that's. missing from your life where the whole. thing is. the The Experience can open the door.

right but you got to walk through it. yeah and you have to keep walking. through it not when you're under the. influence of the medicine right the. integration the integration yeah it's so. key yeah yeah we've lost that's a huge. part of our society that's kind of now. we just kind of get a piece of. information and then we're like oh we. have the information but we don't take. as much time to um to integrate. something in our life like uh that's one. thing I've noticed for myself anyway I I. don't want to pin on everybody body but. I'll notice that sometimes I'll learn. something I'll learn a fact or I'll.

learn like a way that I've oh I know. this about me now or this is something. I've learned but unless I integrate the. solution to that or the um the. information from that the positive. information instead of just shouting it. out that I know it actually integrating. it and taking time to integrate it you. know even taking time like if you go to. a church sermon or a um or a um mosque. sermon or uh yeah synagogue synagogue.

sermon yeah Jewish church that's I good. enough synagogue sermon but and you can. hear a message right but then you can. just go on about your day but taking. time to integrate a message in your life. what did I hear how does it make me feel. that's right what do I think about it I. think we used to have a lot more time to. do that just because our society wasn't. so um our lives weren't so frenetic well. I think we're addicted uh in. particularly I think United States is. addicted to the Quick Fix yeah you know. yeah that ear sh yeah the paint this.

spray paint it yeah yeah so um have you. struggled with addiction before have I. struggled with addiction I know you. struggled with work addiction I think. you talked about I I had I've had two. major. addictions uh one is. workaholism and. um again I have to make a distinction. here I mean I did good work and I did. work that had meaning and made a. contribution that's.

good that's the calling but then there's. another part of it which is being driven. and mean you're being driven you're not. in charge you're like a leave being. driven by the wind and I was driven to. work because I have to keep proving my. importance and that that people should. like me people should respect me and why. cuz I didn't respect myself and because. I I got this message early in life that. I just wasn't important you know and I. believed it the trauma is not for. example the trauma is not for example.

that my mother gave me to a stranger. when I was 11 month old to save my life. that wasn't the trauma that was the. traumatic event trauma is what happens. inside you the trauma inside me was that. I concluded from that that I wasn't. lovable I wasn't important now that. drives the work addiction right because. you have to keep proving to yourself the. other addiction I had and people often. laugh how you can call that an addiction. but it really it was was shopping for. classical compact discs CDs CDs hell.

yeah but but I could drop three $4,000 a. day on them go you know and I would you. can't even smoke them and no you can't. smoke them and no sooner would I leave. the store but I have to run back to get. some more so it wasn't about the having. and the enjoying I love the music but it. wasn't about that it was about getting. more and more and more and never enough. and so I would lie to my wife about it I. would some sometimes neglect my work I. mean I don't think I mentioned this in.

this book but in my book of addiction I. talk about how I left a woman in labor. once to go get a compact disc wow what. album was. it that I don't remember anymore uh I. think it was a morar symphony but I I. don't remember any but so I'm talking. about I'm not talking about my passion. I'm not talking about my passion for. music I'm talking about my drivenness. and sometime people say well how can you. compare your addictions to your heroin. addicted cocain addicted. HIV. written clients and I said I don't I.

said the differences are obvious it's a. similar areas that are interesting and. mean I told my patients in the Downy. side who were using the heroin and you. know and the cocaine and whatever but. you know I got these these Boys to Men. albums yeah yeah and and they said they. never said how can you compare yourself. you know what they said hey Doc you just. like the rest of us aren't you. yeah and you know and and my point is we. are all just like the rest of us right.

we all find some chronic Escape not all. of us most people whether it's drugs. pornography sex internet cell phones. gambling there's gambling self cutting. uh eating uh shopping running working. out that's a huge one extreme working. out and all that and we're running away. from ourselves yeah and and so and when. I ask people not what's wrong wrong with. your addiction CU that's obvious but. what's right about it like for example I.

mean you've had alcohol drug issues I've. heard you sayh what did they do for you. in the short. term I think it. just it gave me a break from how I. wanted to feel it gave me a break from. me it gave you a break from how you felt. yeah yeah it gave me a break from my. feelings yeah and it it just gave me a. break from me I was just but that's cuz. you were really uncomfortable with. yourself yeah and and and because you. had feelings that were painful so my man.

and addiction which I mentioned in this. book is don't ask why the addiction ask. why the pain and and if you understand. why people have pain don't look at their. genes look at their lives yeah what. happened to them yeah yeah you say um or. I've heard you in in your book you talk. about addiction if you recognize the. harm it's or I think it might have been. in a interview you did if you recognize. the harm it's doing and you keep doing. it yeah so addiction is manifested in.

any behavior in which a person finds. temporary relief or pleasure and. therefore craves but then suffers. negative consequences and they don't. give it up yeah so pleasure craving. relief in the short term harm in the. long term refusal and inability to let. go of it that's what an addiction is so. it's got nothing to do with drugs well. it could have to do with drugs could. have to do with any of the things we. already mentioned but any of the things. we mentioned and but why the pain that's.

the question the question is why the. pain yeah what are we running away from. right yeah I had. uh like once I saw like uh pornography. and stuff like that it was like and I. could do masturbation or jerking off or. whatever people call it but. um once I that was the first way that. I've realized oh I can make myself feel. good yeah and it was like the first time. that I like yeah I could make myself. feel good and so then it just.

became yeah it became a way that I. always I mean I I would. just and I would but yeah I would just. that if the only way I knew how to make. myself really feel good even though it's. just for a moment well listen I would. take it should I tell you something. scientific about that yeah so cocaine. addicts and Crystal met addicts I need. stimulant addicts in fact all addicts. amongst the things they're looking for. is a head of dopamine dopamine is the. incentive motivation chemical in our.

brain it's what makes us feel vital and. alive and you know ready to go and. without it we can't survive now um. cocaine Crystal M without it we can't. survive no we can't that's that's cool. to hear it's interesting oh no because. uh dopamine flows in the brain when. we're um exploring a novel object or a. novel environment when we're seeking. food when we're seeking sexual partner. we can't survive without that stuff you.

you can take a m mouse in a laboratory. and put for put food in front of him and. he's hungry but he won't eat why because. genetically you knocked out his dopamine. receptors and he doesn't have the. motivation wow so it's the motivation. chemical it's absolutely essential now. cocaine caffeine nicotine crystal. meth they literally give you a direct. hit of dopamine so does pornography m. when you do brain scans on people. pornography they get repeated spikes of. dopamine it's not the pornography.

they're addicted to it's that hit of. dopamine that they get in their brains. wow and all all addictions shopping ad I. mean when I went to the record store it. was the dopamine like I've been. diagnosed with ADHD the first book I. wrote was on was on ADD and. um you know spacing out absent. mindedness you know all this kind of. stuff oh yeah Daydream and they yeah. yeah um and but when I was in the record.

store I was present wow I was focused I. could almost. remember which records I bought at which. store at what time you know like yeah. because the doine was flowing like crazy. and that's why I needed to go back it. wasn't cuz I needed more music yeah yeah. yeah the trunks's full I was I was after. that I was hiding the discs on the porch. in the Attic So my wife wouldn't CAU me. you know but but I was after the ceiling. caves in it's just a bunch of Van Halen.

yeah and I was after that dopamine. dopamine wow you know which is what. you're after with the pornography yeah. yeah just was and it was a way to make. me feel good and it was the first way. that I could interact with a woman where. it felt like I could and I know it's not. real interaction but it was like this is. the safest closest I can get to. interacting with a woman and it being. like okay because I would I would get so. nervous around women or like if women. looked at me I would like yeah my whole. B like I just I couldn't handle it yeah.

um but yeah that dopamine is um it's. interesting to hear so yeah no matter. what it is it's the dopamine behind it. it's the dopamine no. the and and there's another chemical. that's involved in many addictions um. like like the Heron addicts or the. opiate addict the fental. addicts those are opiates which come. from the Opium plant but why did they. work in the human brain why would an. opium plant work in the human brain cuz. we have receptors for them we have. molecules that receives the opiate.

molecule now why do we have receptors. from a plant that grows in Afghanistan. we don't we have receptors for our own. internal opiates so we have an internal. opiate system and they are called. endorphins endorphin means endogenous. internal opiate so those are our. endorphins are our own opiates op so we. manufacture our own opiates not only we. do plants do animals do everybody now. the question is what do the opiates do.

in the human brain but they do a whole. lot of things but three. importantly they relieve pain physical. and emotional pain because pain is. necessary for Life otherwise I could. smash my hand on this table Yeah you. jump out of a window and yeah yeah but I. also have to some pain relief that's the. endorphins number one number two what. they do is they give you a sense of. pleasure and reward so when people go. people go bun. jumping they get this high level of.

endorphins that's what they're after ah. and Ah that's why they keep doing wild. stuff like that that's right and the. third thing is the most important the. endorphins help to make possible this. little thing called love and if you. knock out the Endorphin receptors of. little mice in the laboratory they will. not cry for their mothers on separation. now what would that mean in the wild it. would mean their death. yeah so. endorphins connect people to each other.

especially parents and children and so. so we're each other's opiates in a way. we each other's opiates especially in a. healthy um parent child relationship and. they both have endorphin flowing in. their brain when they're look into each. other's eyes yeah and if when I ask. heroin addicts or opiate addicts um and. a sex trade worker I asked once what. does the Aron do for you she said when. the first time I did heroin it felt like. a warm soft hug what was she talking.

about connection connection yeah and in. this book I talk about it and so many of. the addicts like one a very well-known. recovery leader and and and you know. Fearless um Advocate is Jam Lee Curtis. and and she told me is she sorry she is. oh yeah she's a big 12 stepper I didn't. know that oh no she's a huge 12 stepper. and very very forthright about about her. addictions and also her recovery wow.

that's fasc I'd love to talk with her. yeah I've seen her eating lunch in the. Palisades before Pacific Palisades. before but but she told me that. beautiful what the Opus did for her give. her a sense of warmth in the belly that. warmth is what we're all after yeah that. comes from Human connection and when we. didn't have the connections we needed. early in life then we keep looking for. that warmth from other sources so these. people that are addicted to opiates. that's what they're looking for bunch of. hug Hunters yeah um I want to go back a.

little bit to um trauma and isolation. and I wanted to ask what is it about not. being emotionally about not being. emotionally isolated that allows one to. process a. trauma yeah. so I did. a a dayong event here in La just the day. before we were recording this mhm and I. worked with a woman called Kimberly. Shannon Murphy who is one of Hollywood's.

top stunt women she just got a Lifetime. Achievement Award as nice. congratulations Kim and she worked with. Cameron Diaz and and and and Uma Thurman. and Tom Cruz and all these people lot. ofies no she was sexually abused by her. grandfather oh all throughout her. childood an. adolescence um and of course. the family was in denial nobody noticed. it if they noticed it they kept silent.

about it she was totally alone with it. so that's what induced the wound and H. should be able to talk to somebody and. say this is happening to me please help. me she would not have been traumatized. so the trauma happens when a child. suffers and has nobody to share that. suffering with whether it's your extreme. suffering or sexual abuse or the mild or. you might say suffering or just not. being seen for who you are if you're.

alone with it you can't process it so. what happens later on to answer your. question when you meet somebody where. you feel. safe and now you can express what's. happening with you that's what helps to. process the trauma got it so it it it. requires. compassion and safety and. ideally I mean I I criticize the 12 step. group. not for what they do cuz I love what. they do for what they don't do I don't.

think they talk about trauma enough. that's my view but but but a a a 12-step. group that's properly run will offer you. support and. safety so now you can share yourself and. be seen by others amen yeah I mean I've. gotten even into like the intimacy. disorder groups and those are a lot more. uh potent with people talking about um. their emotional disorders and like like.

you know traumas and things that happen. and it's not a a crybaby group either I. you know like sometimes we talk about. trauma but I don't talk about it from. like a crybaby place I like to talk. about it from like this is important and. um and it's and it's important to learn. about and and I like to share what I. learn about from it you know it's not. about people um victimizing themselves. or or trying to present as victims. saying this is what happened to me and. it's my responsibility to learn from it. that's the truth and it's my. responsibility to grow from it not to.

wallow and all of what happened to me. and I can't help it that's nonsense oh. I'll tell you this Mr mon that a thing I. realized I was addicted to a few years. ago yeah self-pity yeah and I didn't. even know it I kept always thinking man. what's wrong with me I have to fix this. every day it wasn't nothing was enough I. kept and then I. realized that even though it seemed like. I was trying to make myself better yeah. the truth was that I was always seeing.

myself as less than because those things. have to both be present at the same time. um because I can only get better if you. know I have to there's not I'm I'm never. enough well that I never being enough. though yeah. um it I'm trying to figure this out well. I got addicted to self-pity I got. addicted to like can I jump in with a. thought yes please thank you dear God. please it did something for you. it took away responsibly from.

you no human beings have a hard time. taking responsibility I mean you know I. I have a hard time taking responsibility. you know uh we all have a hard time. taking responsibility so when you're in. that self-pity. mode you you're suffering but you don't. have to take responsibility I'm. suggesting that's what it did for you. yeah I think. um yeah maybe there was a part of me. that wanted to keep it around because it. always let there be something wrong with. me too that's right you know like if I.

never solve this if I'm never enough. then there'll always be something wrong. with me yeah does that make any sense it. makes sense because again it it um takes. away the challenge of growth right I. mean we talk about growing. pains growth is painful oh yeah people. go from damn seven Ines to seven ft so. six and a half 61 or whatever yeah and. and and and. emotional growth is also oh yeah painful.

and so when we don't. grow at least to we avoid the growing. pains right you know yeah I used to when. whenever I used to smoke I used to be. like part of me didn't want to quit. smoking yeah because I wanted to have an. excuse for why I wasn't doing other. things right does that make sense makes. little sense little sense is enough I'll. take it yeah um does blue chew work I. can answer it yep I chewing on in things. baby get that diving board baby make.

your own. pool if you're asking that question does. blue chew work we want you to know that. blue chew is putting their money where. their mouth is by giving you a month. free bluechew is an online service that. delivers the same active ingredients as. Viagra Calis and Levitra but at a. fraction of the cost and in a chewable. form blue chew wants men rock hard they.

told me that's the mission they will not. stop until every man is bricked. up till every tent is. pitched until every Rod is raised salute. discover your options at bluechew.com. and we've got a special deal for our. listeners try blue free when you use our. promo code Thief Theo at checkout just. pay $5 shipping that's bluechew.com.

promo code Theo to receive your first. month free visit blue.com for more. details and important safety information. and we thank Blu for supporting the. podcast this episode is sponsored by. better help when your mental Clarity or. your focus or your ability to process. something in your life is not where it. should be if you're struggling showing. up for your family or.

yourself you may need therapy I've gone. I recommend it better help can help if. you're thinking of starting therapy give. better help a try it's entirely online. designed to be convenient flexible and. suited to your schedule just fill out a. brief questionnaire to get matched with. a licensed therapist and switch therap. at any time for no additional charge.

therapy can help you learn to accept all. parts of yourself so you can take off. the mask take off the mask with better. help visit. betterhelp.com. tho today to get 10% off your first. month that's better help. hp.com Theo and we thank better help for. sponsoring this episode oh yeah what. else did I want to talk to oh this is.

really fascinating stuff here so trauma. Fosters a shame-based view of the self. yeah um I'd love to talk a little bit. about shame man because that was a huge. part of my life well tell me about it I. just felt ashamed of myself yeah I felt. ashamed of. like yeah I felt ashamed of how I looked. I felt ashamed of like my ears my nose. my face my the way I stood MH I felt. uh yeah I felt ashamed of my family of.

my home I just I everything I I I I just. felt a ton of it I'm not I'm not whining. about it right now I'm just thinking. back but yeah I just felt a ton of Shame. you know I felt. like I felt. like I think I felt ashamed of who I was. at like the first molecule almost like. the first cell of my you know the dirt. under the roots it felt like I just. there was a part of me that felt like I. was me or anything that had to do with. me was gross I understand you know and I.

used the word gross cuz that's it felt. like gross no the only thing I'll. say is. [Music]. um it's not that you felt you were gross. it's you believed you were right yes. yeah you're right I didn't feel it it. wasn't like a feeling on the surface of. me it was like a knot when had tied a. long time ago in the beginning of my. time and in there it in that knot it was.

in there somewhere and I couldn't really. even access it it was a yeah but shame. yeah I want to hear about shame did you. feel it oh yeah oh yeah um how' you. feel well. uh growing up in Hungary in Eastern. Europe and I I lived there until I was. 13 um there's a lot of antiem M and my. grandparents had died in owitz um I.

almost died as an infant my mother my. father um that's when your mother gave. you to someone else to save you that's. right yeah wow when I was 11 months of. age um but even after the. war there was. anti-Semitism and so I'd feel ashamed of. being. Jewish I don't anymore but but I did as. a kid so I would kind of then I have I. was ashamed my Jewish looks oh so you. have to hide or you have to feel like. yeah yeah there's something different.

about me that isn't quite right and you. know there was a lot of anti-Semitism in. taunting in the school that I went to. you know when I look back on it now so. yeah and then I I I develop body shame. you know I mean to this day it's kind of. it's. interesting but every day I judge. aspects of my body oh yeah you know like. this is not big enough or this is too.

big or whatever you know yeah this is. too big yeah so shame but shame nobody's. born with shame really no infant is born. ashamed of themselves they're totally. there yeah that's true huh if you saw. the little infant that was ashamed of. yourselves ashamed of himself it would. break your heart yeah no they wouldn't. even know how to do it how infants get. shamed is when they not. seen and yeah and what happens then well. then or if they're mistreated well let's.

say a child is not seen or or worse is. being heard now they can make two. assumptions one is these adults are. stupid they're incapable they're. incompetent I'm all alone in the world. or the child can believe there's. something wrong with me and maybe if I. can work hard enough I can fix it now. which belief do you think is more. acceptable for the. child the second one the second one so.

then they develop this deep sense that. there's something wrong with us we just. have to work hard enough or look good. enough or something and maybe we conf. fix so even that shame which comes off. from being cut off from it comes from. being cut off from Human contact UM the. way we need it has a kind of protective. value really because it makes us at. least. think that there's something we can do. ah it almost it irr it gives us hope in.

a weird way it gives us hope in a word. way yeah but it just but here's the. thing children are are narcissists and. young children when I say narcissist I. don't mean in the pathological sense I. mean in the sense they think it's all. about them right and they don't have any. other choice they're all they know. that's all they know so if the parents. are happy and connected and there's a. atmosphere of um. loving acceptance and so on then the. child thinks hey I must be pretty good I.

must be okay yeah everything's good I'm. okay yeah but if the parents are. stressed depressed. traumatized racially challenged. economically challenged um. or such terrible things as the children. and Gaza are experiencing right now with. the daily bombings and all this kind of. stuff what can they. think that there's something wrong with. me oh imagine some kid over there in.

Gaza looking up and there's a bomb some. and they think man I'm so horrible I. deserve to be bombed well you know what. there was a study done of guys and. children man that's crazy I had thought. about that like really look imagine that. though there was a study done of. children in. Palestine um 21 years ago and 95% of. those 95% this is long before the. current Horrors mhm long before October. the 7th long before the aftermath of. October the 7th 95% of those 5% of those.

kids show traumatic symptoms high. percentage with their beds like you and. I. did they expressed aggression towards. their parents um they had uh panic. attacks anxiety fears can you imagine. what's going to happen to that. generation years from now years from now. I mean it just breaks my heart every day. when I think about it and uh and I know. I know a lot of my fellow Jews don't.

agree with me but as a Jewish person I'm. not the only one who feels that way it. especially breaks my heart yeah when you. put it in that sense that a kid imagine. a kid. like you. know yeah because what are they going to. think they don't know they just think. man something's so wrong with me I. deserve to. be killed yeah you know or something I I. don't know yeah it depends if the adults. are able to hold them and and and and.

keep them feeling loved but 19,000 kids. have been orphaned and when I say. orphaned I don't mean just that their. parents have died their extended. families have been wiped out what's. going to be the future of those kids you. know and uh any it's just a terrible no. it's heartbreaking I mean it feels like. a genocide is going on over there and. you don't know what to do you know know. from it's like you. know I mean you can pray you can speak.

up about it and I know that there's like. a more political aspects of it and we've. had different people come on to talk. about Israel and Palestine on here and. it was very knowledgeable for a lot of. our listeners cuz you hear about it a. lot but you don't know the history and. everything but well I've been there I. went there two and a half years ago to. work with Palestinian women tortured in. Israeli jails wow and they had post-. traumatic stress disorder I've seen it. with my own eyes and. um who's the black American writer.

tenasi coats tenasi coat yeah he just. written a new book and he talks about. visiting Palestine and he. says yeah t quotes yeah he in his new. book he says once you go there and see. it you can't unsee it you know and um. yeah our media doesn't cover it super. fairly yeah I feel like our media. doesn't cover it super fairly that. interesting to speak with him then thank. you for bringing his name up oh yeah. yeah I mean it's heartbreaking anytime.

something's happening to a child you. know that should be the one thing that. we can all figure out this shouldn't. happen no it's also the truth that it's. also happening to kids in Israel there's. bombs and Rockets and so. on I don't know if this is the time to. go into the politics of it it's not a. question. of valuing or or or sort of esteeming. one suffering over another we don't. compare traumas but the degree and the. scale of.

suffering in Gaza is. unprecedented you know and look it seems. like it when my wife walks into a room. I'm 80 I'm typing away I'm reading a. book she walks into the room and I don't. hear all of a sudden I hear her I go. like this now this is the startle. response of an infant if you if you take. a 3-month-old who's sitting there who. lying there and you like. this it's called the star of reflex.

that's built into me cuz when I was 3. months of age and throughout my first. year Budapest was being bombed by the. Allies wow quite apart from the. anti-Semitism and the genocide there was. the war going on so I'd be thrown into a. laundry basket and they'd rush me down. to the basement so when I hear a noise I. still go like this yeah now this is 80. years later or when you see a load of. laundry go by you know man so we can. stay with so so what you're saying is it. can stay with you that long it can stay. with you it gets locked in you in your.

cells really it's it's actually. literally locked into your cells and. into your chromosomes yeah I mean it's. heartbreaking for both those children on. both sides that and and just anywhere. anytime you think like and even a kid. when they think like even in America. it's like in America it's like we're. bombing each other like there's we can't. figure out a way there's a huge Planet. here we can't figure out how can we not. figure out a way yeah that we can do. live all all God is asking us to do is.

be alive yeah and do it without war that. seems it seems unreal that we can't. figure that out man well that I mean the. the great spiritual teachers have been. addressing that Insanity for thousands. of years you know um yeah how does shame. cause us to lose compassion for. ourselves. yeah um let me tell you a story.

um I mention this in the methan normal. after my book on addiction came out in. the realm of hungry ghosts I got an. email not an email a letter from a guy. in Seattle and he said I really. appreciate your book and showing how. trauma. causes um is one of. not addiction is not the only out of. trauma but it's one of the outcomes of. trauma one of the potential outcomes of. trauma and he a really patial that but.

he says I can't play my mother it's my. own fault that I'm a. and I thought oh my God you poor. guy you still see yourself that way but. lack of. compassion cuz if he actually understood. fully understood that he was just a baby. at some point needing and wanting to be. loved and held and seen and and and and. valued. just for being a human being and that. didn't happen to him and that caused so.

much pain in him that he escaped. into some drug. addiction he's not a he's just a. hurt human being yeah but that lack of. self-compassion I see it all the time in. my workshops when I do therapy work with. people one of my main tasks is. to help them to. notice not to criticize them for it but. to help them to be aware of how they. lack compassion for themselves yeah and.

um it's hard to even notice that you're. getting in the shame Circle it's so hard. to even notice that you're in it you. could be living in the center of it yeah. you know that's how I was with self-pity. I was living it I just didn't realize it. and the self-pity was manifesting itself. like oh you can figure this out you know. but by trying to constantly help myself. figure it out all I was doing was. focusing on my own right being not good. enough which in a way is really just. self P self-pity but but it's also lack. of self-compassion yeah not giving. myself some Grace I remember the first.

time somebody said hey man give yourself. some Grace I'd never even wow I was like. Wow because you people find themselves. accusing themselves and talk to. themselves in ways that they would never. talk to others yeah yeah yeah that most. people wouldn't you some would yeah but. most. wouldn't um can you notice um. characteristic. or actualities in your life today that. you can directly correlate to side. effects of childhood trauma my own.

yeah um well um my capacity to get. triggered but see triggered is an. interesting word because we keep using. it but what does it mean well it means. an a reaction that's way out of. proportion to the to the actual stimulus. yeah when you have you look at a when. you where where the metaphor comes from. comes from a a gun now how big a part of.

the gun is the. trigger small small little part what. makes the trigger work is that there's. ammunition and explosive charge so as. long as I'm full of explosive charge. which is my unresolved. trauma some of you say boo and I'll go. you know so my capacity get triggered my. difficulty. believing that I was really loved and. accepted in my marriage relationship. even though I was wow you know um my.

tendency to blame others for my own. reactions rather than taking. responsibility in there we mentioned the. addictive behaviors. certainly the first book I wrote in ADHD. it's called scattered Minds my scattered. mind is certainly an outcome of early. stress because I mean that dissociation. that tuning up is just an escape. mechanism you know.

so the way I was unable to see my kids. for the beautiful sensitive creatures. that they were you know um in my. workaholism oh it's shown up it's shown. up in so many ways you said that not. believing that people love us yeah. that's dude that's huge man yeah what. what is that why is that why why do we. sometimes you'll be in a marriage in a. relationship and we'll still believe.

that person they don't love me or they. we won't believe their affections what. did you say yeah we yeah we won't. believe we're loved you know or accepted. well Peter LaVine who's one of the great. trauma teachers he talked about trauma. being the tyranny of the past so the. attorney of the past the Tyranny the. tyranny of the past so we're in the. present moment but we you. reacting to the past. now throughout the first year of my.

life given our. situation my mother was really stressed. unhappy even. terrorized she couldn't give me that. calm attuned loving attention that I. needed she did her best for God's sakes. you know what could be greater love than. for a 24 young woman to give her baby to. a total stranger in the street you know. but how do I experience it I experience. it as a rejection right so the person.

that ought to be loving me is giving me. away I can only conclude from that that. I'm not lovable ah I see now once I. don't think I'm. lovable I'm not going to believe that. anybody actually loves me no matter what. they manifest or what they show me yeah. you know and then I'm blaming. them. for my own sense of unlovability. not this is unprocessed trauma we're. talking about 100% you know yeah I've.

almost even thought it sometimes I. thought like um oh you're dumb for. loving me yeah yeah but that's the other. side of it yeah it's like Garo Mark said. that I wouldn't belong to a club that. would have me as a member yeah so. anybody would love. me they can't be very bright can they it. must be out of their. minds um. you talk also about not parent blaming. which I think is really important yeah. um can you tell me a little bit about.

that yeah well. look I mean your story right there but. your mother gave you away because it was. the yeah I mean imagine the terror the. pain in her of like yeah the only the. most loving thing I can do is put my. child somewhere else away from me right. now for its own safety that's exactly. right right well all parents we were. born with the caring Instinct you know. like we're born with certain emotional. systems in our brain play is one of them.

curiosity seeking the dopamine so is. another one caring loving is another one. we're just born with that it's. instinctual all mammals are born with it. oh yeah no mammal infant would survive. without it right you. know so I don't I never doubt that. parents love their kids or that there's. at least an Impulse in them to do so but. the love that the parent feels is not. that the love what the parent child.

receives what the child receives is the. quality of the parents. presence are they calm are they. attuned are they emotionally present are. they preoccupied stressed depressed. traumatized overworked. whatever any of those conditions the. child does not experience the love. in its whole sense right so even though. you might know that your mother loved.

you and I'm sure she did in her own way. and she did her very best but she was. not able to give you those qualities. that you would really in your heart. experience as love yeah you know and so. in this Society where as you said. earlier parents have to go to work just. to put bread on the table and where so. many people are economically insecure. with there's so much stress so much. division so much angst so much. aggression so much.

suspicion um what's it like to be a. parent it's really really difficult and. don't forget we didn't evolve in nuclear. families be evolved in groups where kids. were around nurturing adults the whole. day including their parents but not only. their parents yeah so in today's society. parenting has become an almost an. impossible task why would I blame any. blame any parent and I'll even say this.

and I'm not trying to excuse anything. because there's no. excuse that's not the point but if you. look at parents who abuse their kids. what happened to them as kids they were. abused for sure they were abused it's. multigenerational it's not that they. grow up it's not that they decide I'm. going to abuse my kids they just act out. what happened to them yeah so I think. blame. now responsibility is one thing blame is. another um I think blame is totally un.

scientific it's cruel and it's totally. inappropriate so as much as I point out. the impact of early. experience there's absolutely no room. for blaming parents and Theo what's. really interesting to me is after I. wrote my book on. addiction occasionally some strange. person will come up to me and said my. child died of an overdose and I thank. you for writing the book and I always.

find that a bit startling because in the. book I'm saying that it's childhood. experience and Trauma that ultimately. result in addiction and they say you. know what cuz I finally get it I finally. understand what happened and I get it. that it's multigenerational that it's. nobody's fault there's nobody to be. blamed here you know the question is in. each. generation can we take responsibility so. we don't pass it on to the next one but. blame there's no room for it yeah and uh.

Robert Sosi the scientist who I quoted. he said there's just no room for. blame yeah it's not it's not yeah you. can have you can have discussions about. responsibility and things like that and. share hey I think you could have been. more responsible about this or seeing. something that was somebody's. responsibility but yeah and you can even. be angry right without be angry without. blaming right because why wouldn't you.

be angry yeah when those things happen. to you so it's not a question of telling. people don't be angry but having anger. and owning it is not the same as saying. you did something deliberately that you. shouldn't have done and you should have. known better and you know you said. terrible you know it's so there's anger. healthy anger necessary anger and then. there is. the expectation that people take. responsibility yeah each for.

ourselves and then there's blame which. is a whole. other bag of monkeys yeah we don't it's. a zoo we don't we don't need to be. involved in no we don't need. that um what what makes you. laugh like is there like shows you like. to watch or a thing you like well. sometimes what makes me laugh is my own. ridiculousness. yeah sometimes me too I know it's going. to be a good day if I find that I'm. laughing at myself yeah yeah well.

there's so many you know like the little. human ego is I mean on the one hand we. can be compassionate towards it but on. the other hand it's so ridiculous yeah. you know so we can laugh at ourselves um. my wife and I laugh a lot oh you do yeah. yeah that's one of our that's one of our. saving it's been 55 years in in a month. and I tell you we've laughed so much. together. at ourselves at each other that's. adorable you know um what makes me laugh.

usually absurdity yeah when things are. absurd they make they make me laugh you. know where the sort of touched reality. yeah. [Music]. um those are the things that make me. laugh is there like a film that you like. or like what's a movie that you like I'm. just trying to just know a little bit. more about you. yeah a movie that made me laugh or there. a couple mov fish called Wanda oh yeah. talking about Jam Lee Curtis uh that I I. roared my head off about that one um I.

don't have such a good memory for that. kind of stuff um a a funny book will. make me laugh you know um yeah do you. have a favorite or one just a fiction. book that you. like I tend to go for the classics mhm. so I keep ring thead by Homer wow the. Trojan War I keep rading um Doki um I.

just reread U the brothers kov last year. um because he's such a deep such a deep. understanding of the human soul the. darkness and the lightness both yeah of. the human soul um it's fascinating yeah. um so I tend to go for the classics. myself I I read some Modern novels but. not that often. by the way you know what made me laugh. Cat 22 yeah I I reread that a couple.

years ago I split a gut who was it not. John sck who wrote that uh Joseph heler. Joseph heler Catch 22 I think it was. Joseph heler is his first name um we had. to read that I think in school well it. um by modern standards there's some. parts of it that are. really sexist and misogynist and in some. places even racist. um so I'm not making any excuse for that. yeah it was the Zeitgeist at the time.

yeah sure but it's just ringly funny. about the absurdity of war and and and. the self- puffery of important people. yeah you. know I have to check it out man I I I. think I had to read it sometime but. maybe in college we had to read it did. you ever read um John Irving any of his. books like the world according a gar. remember that book I you know I started. reading that decades ago I never. finished it yeah it happened some of his.

books his latest book is it's I don't. even know what it is it's very long yeah. I mean you need to bring a tent with you. you know recently there's a book that's. got a lot of attention uh demon. Copperhead by Barbara Kings and and she. wrote The Poisonwood Bible that's her. most favorite famous book but demon. Copperfield Copperhead is a is a of a. modern take on um on David Copperfield. by Charles Dickens and it takes place in.

Appalachia wow and I just saw an. interview over there yesterday how she. goes after JD Vance wow because she's an. Appalachian right so they're both from. that area they're both from that area. different mindset and she's saying buddy. you don't represent us you know and and. and D C demon Copperhead takes on. the hillbilly image of of appellations H. and plays with it beautifully wow I'd. love to check that out she seems like an. interesting woman she's a very.

interesting woman she very thoughtful. very forthright that'd be cool yeah. maybe I can maybe after I read the book. I could see if she would want to come. and visit um sometimes like I always. like feel like I have to explain my. intentions I there's a part of me that. always feels like I'm manipulating. somebody do you know what I'm talking. about that's not a feeling so what is it. it's a thought it's a belief it's a. belie Bel yeah no and there's a reason. why you have. it.

um like even if I'm just doing something. nice there's a part of me that's like oh. you're yeah you think you're a fake yeah. yeah it's called the impostor syndrome. okay and and uh it has to do with the. fact that you couldn't be real as a. kid in some ways you had to. [Music]. pretend. and it's really. hard to let go of that of that sense. that I'm still doing it yeah it's what. you go up with so you could be kind to.

that part of yourself okay who the part. that you could actually because it's not. a feeling you know Theo it's a belief. and the beliefs can be you don't argue. with feelings but beliefs you can. challenge is it really true that you're. manipulating like when you're talking to. me now are we having a genuine. conversation I believe that we are or is. it true that you're actually. manipulating me in any way at all. no I don't think I am and furthermore. give me some. credit maybe you can't manip me even if.

you wanted. to so so. that that's very fair dude so that fear. of yours is both a lack of compassion. towards. yourself and a lack. of in a sense trust in the other. person's capacity to look after. themselves that's a good point. yeah yeah it's just funny I was just. talking with my brother yesterday. because we had similar childhoods and we. were thinking of what are some things.

that I could think about to talk with. him about and and we were talking about. that that sometimes we always feel uh. like there's something like we're. manipulating ourselves or that our. ability to manipulate would be so. powerful that we wouldn't even know yeah. what we're doing which is pretty crazy. too it's a lack of self trust Lack of. self trust now you know what have I. manipulated yes I have yeah sure you. know but um so it's not a question. that one never does it but I know when. I'm manipulating right and usually it's. cuz I want something that I don't know.

how to State directly or I'm afraid I. might not get otherwise you know and. then I'm afraid to show up with my. vulnerable request which would make. sense as a child there was something you. wanted that you didn't think you were. going to get otherwise so you didn't. show so makes sense. children children manipulate out of a. sense of weakness and uh. that's pretty much all they can do if. otherwise they don't get their.

enement um a lot of the your book that. I've read so far it's about it's getting. to the part where it's like uh that. Western medicine doesn't always take. into context as much that the body and. the mind like us as an entire thing as. our society as you know it's almost like. in like if say if like the whole world. and time and culture and everything were. a car yeah instead of the doctor looking. at the car they just look at the human.

which would just be one part of the car. yeah and so they're always just working. on this one part instead of looking at. the whole car which could also be a. cause of why the part isn't doing well. that's the whole point and. um see what see we have to make a. distinction here there's Western science. okay then there's Medical Practice. understood the two are not the same. necessarily okay so I was trained as a. medical doctor nobody ever T taught me. about the Mind Body Unity but.

physiologically you can't separate the. Mind from the body so that our emotional. circuits and the immune system and the. hormonal apparatus and the nervous. system are actually one system they're. not separate systems so when things. happen emotionally naturally they have a. physiological effect yeah you know so I. could give you 10,000 examples children. whose parents are stressed are much more. likely to have asthma children of what.

children who are whose parents are. stressed are much more likely to have. asthma okay so their the airway is. narrow and they get inflamed black. there's a study that showed that black. American women the more episodes of. racism they experience the higher the. risk of asthma wow um it's been shown. that women with severe. PTSD have doubled the risk of ovarian. cancer wow this is a study out of. Harvard University um adults who.

experience the loss of an adult child. have a higher risk of malignancy of the. of the born marrow and and and the blood. grief grief a Danish study parents who. lost a child have double the risk of. multiple sclerosis there are hundreds of. studies showing the physical. physiological impact of stress and. Trauma and loss on the physiology so.

manifesting itself in our bodies as a. disease or contributing to contributing. the onset of the disease got it and U. yeah cuz cancer it's like you know you. you you say in the book like people get. cancer a lot of times you hear like that. guy got cancer he died three weeks later. right you hear that all the time but the. cancer had been there forever yeah and. it just enough had happened I guess that. it. turned over into being well we know that. stress for example can turn off genes.

that protect you against cancer and turn. on genes that can cause cancer really. yeah yeah yeah it's not even. controversial and we know that people. that repress their healthy anger they're. actually suppressing their immune system. and this this stuff has been studied. over and over again in great clinicians. have been recognizing this. forever and in 2400 years ago Socrates.

the Greek philosopher said that the. problem with the doctors of today is. that they separate the Mind from the. body wow 2400 years ago now I can name. you any number of great medical. Pioneers I mentioned some of in the book. who 150 years ago 100 years ago 80 years. ago 40 years ago pointed out that mind. and body can't be separated that in fact. we are bioc psychosocial creatures which. means that our biology is in separable.

from our psyche or emotional apparatus. and from our social relationships wow so. all of it it's all one it's. scientifically it's all one the problem. is Medical Practice doesn't recognize. that Oneness so most of the time you go. to a physic with rumor arthritis or. multiple sclerosis for both of which. there's plenty of evidence about the. role of trauma and stress but the. doctor's never going to ask you about. any of that stuff they're just going to. deal you with the pH deal with the.

physical aspects of it which they should. deal with right but they also need to. look at the whole you know what happened. in this person's life and what's. stressing them now and how can we help. with that part of it you know so Medical. Practice as a doctor I don't know if to. be told how miraculously. effective the achievements of modern. medicine be but at the same time there's. a huge piece that we're missing and that.

piece is not just intuitive or spiritual. woohoo it's science but but they don't. teach that Mind Body Unity science in. the medical schools yeah in fact the. piece is a whole that's what they're. missing they're missing they're missing. the wholeness now if you look at. indigenous medicine yeah there's the. medicine wheel which consists of four. quadrants mhm there's the physical our. physiology there's the mental which is. our emotions and our thoughts there's.

the social which is our relationships. with other people and other creatures. and then there's the spiritual which is. our connection with something greater. than just a little ego however you. define that and health they say depends. on a balance between those four. quadrants. scientifically that's totally true but. unfortunately Ely that science is. largely ignored in medical. training I'm sure yeah well especially.

now a lot of our medicine has kind of. been compromised or I think our industry. has you know oh yeah maybe I don't know. and I don't know your industry and I'm. not trying to offend it but it's. certainly seems like just you know the. it's been com most Industries have been. a lot of com have been compromised you. know the fact to have. better you know balance sheets than um. but look if you come to me with. depression mhm by the way that's another. diagnosis that I've had so I've I've.

actually taken medication for depression. so I'm not here to you're not just. guessing you know you know to dismiss. them yeah but if you look at the word. depression what does it actually mean to. depress something hold it back it's to. push it down yeah now what gets pushed. on in depression your feelings our. feelings now why would a person push on. their. feelings one of the needs of the child. one of the essential needs of the child. as I pointed out in this book I don't.

make this stuff up I just reported is to. be able to experience all their. emotions anger grief fear Panic um love. playfulness. curiosity. um uh Lust For Life and just hunger for. Life the child doesn't need to express. all those emots ions when they arise and. have that understood accepted and. validated by the adults no if I'm in an.

environment where the parents can't do. that you've had guests on this program I. won't mention them by name who teach. that an angry child should be made to. sit by themselves until they come back. to normal mhm no right know 2-year-old. kid gets frustrated they get. angry if you give that kid the message. that if you're angry you can't be with. me the child is is an impossible. dilemma am I going. to separate myself from the person on.

whom my life depends or will I push down. my anger well give that message to the. kid often enough what are they going to. do depress their. feelings 30 years later they diagnosed. with this disease called. depression you know now if you come to. me with. depression I might decide decide that. temporarily it might be a good idea for. you to be in. anti-depressants and I've taken them.

they help me for a while you know but. it's not enough let's also look at what. made you push down your feelings what. happened to you. now prescribing the anti-depressant. takes me three minutes right talking. with. you about what actually happened to you. that made you push down your feelings. that takes a long time right and doctors. are not even trained to raise that. question so even if as a physician I.

don't have the expertise to deal with. that question at least I could refer you. to somebody who does yeah but no most of. the time it's just the industrial model. you come in I got five minutes with you. here's the prescription. goodbye well that doesn't deal with the. underlying problem it deals with the. symptom which may sometimes be helpful. sometimes it isn't but whether it's. helpful or not it does not deal with the. underlying Dynamic.

yeah oh yeah it's just and it's just. where our society is too we've gone so. far down this road and it's just like. how do. we yeah back in the day it's like it. seemed like if you were like maybe this. is crazy but if you were like just a. small group around a campfire you could. you could see if somebody was hurting. you there was everything was right there. you couldn't hide anything not only that. you know what you would do you do. ceremonies healing rituals yeah you.

would drum you would dance you would. chant you would shake a stick it be. communal yeah a friend of mine who I. quote in the book He's a Part. Lota um physician and psychiatrist his. name is Lis Madrona and he said in the. Lota tradition when somebody gets sick. the the community says thank you your. illness represents some imbalance in our. community wow you're like the canary in.

the mind so your healing is our healing. so let's do this together now that makes. so much sense yeah both scientifically. and and and and and and and emotionally. we don't do that we sort of isolate the. individual then we separate the Mind. from the body so we say it's just a. brain problem no it isn't it's a life. problem and that life is lived in an. environment in a multigenerational. family in a certain culture let's look. at the whole thing that's all do you.

think we can start to head more in that. direction or how do you think this. changes because we are pretty far down. the well here I think um you even said. roar like sometimes I feel like our. whole planet just wants to Roar. you know it's like it just like I feel. like everybody just wants to go in the. yard and just scream at the at the sky. it's like like I don't know it feels. like there's just something trapped in. us that. is does that make any sense man oh yeah.

and it's had some cultural expression as. well what was that movie where somebody. yells um I'm fed up and I can't take it. anymore and he starts yelling I'm oh. falling down Michael Douglas is that it. was I don't know which movie it was but. it was somebody just starts yelling I'm. fed up and I can't take it anymore and. everybody starts yelling I'm fed up I. can't take it anymore or you know I. think there's a deep sense of. frustration in this culture I'm mad as. hell and I'm not going to be able to.

take this anymore yeah it's Network a. Howard oh yeah Network that's a great. movie if you've never seen it it's a. great movie I'm a matter no that was. decades ago I think the level of. frustration in our society has increased. why are people frustrated because the. needs aren't being met yeah and that. scream look I travel all over the world. I just came back from a 3- week six. Country tour of Europe wow I talked to. 12,000 people that sense of.

frustration that sense of longing that. we talked about it's so Universal these. days it is yeah yeah that is it because. that's what yeah that's what it feels. like this are other people feeling this. that's what I wonder a lot are other. people feeling the same way well um some. people are not because they escape and. this Society is. absolutely brilliant at creating escapes. through mass media yeah Mass Sports um.

um consumption and so on but I'll I'll. say something here and this is. particularly true of comedians I have. found some people are just born more. sensitive that's a great Point too and I. have to take that into account we all do. and and more sensitive means sensitive. is from the Latin word sere to feel now. some people are genetically born more. sensitive they feel more that means when. things go wrong they feel it more than.

the others so the same thing can happen. externally to different two different. people but if one of them is more. sensitive they going to feel it all the. more so it's especially the highly. sensitive people who are feeling that. scream that you talk. about yeah that's a great point that it. uh. yeah yeah that's what it's just like I. just feel like we've just gone so far. off the path.

of but if I can say something. uhhuh your. sense that we've gone off the path what. in you knows. that like what part of me you. mean what in you who in you knows that. we've going have to pass. [Music]. it's the part that hasn't gone off the. path it's the part that actually sees so. that I'm I don't want to create too much.

Doom and Gloom here no there is this. self here there's this tress here that's. never been damaged never been destroyed. there's nobody's damaged goes that way. it's always in here it's a question of. can we connect with it right you know. and that yeah how do we get back to. connecting with that sort of thing. because our society our culture is not. going to do it for us it doesn't feel. like we might have to start with it as. individuals does that make. sense we do begin as individuals but you.

probably realized I mean just for. example in your AA group there's a. community there right who have a lot of. shared experiences and who are very. vulnerably open in sharing their. experiences and that that's a source of. support when you share about yourself. that's a source of support to others. when they share about themselves that's. support for you that ultimately no we. don't have to do it by ourselves it. begins as an individual process but. pretty soon you find that we're not.

alone yeah do you think we can get out. of um of this toxic culture gabo do you. feel like there's a way out of where we. are or do you feel like that humanity is. just I believe in human beings um that's. a great statement I do too you know I. believe that there's an essential. goodness there desire to connect um a. desire to belong desire to to celebrate. life you know I I think that's we're.

undd with those capacities and as. difficult as things may look and. especially these days with these. Terribles war wars going on and the. suffering that we've talked about I. still believe that there's so many. examples everywhere I go I meet such. good people people are trying to make a. difference people are trying to do their. little bit or their big bit did to. reduce the suffering in the world to to. speak the truth to to offer some love.

compassion to the world I really do. believe in humans no we have the. potential to be. monsters we have the potentials to be. Angels. but that good s never totally disappears. some people it's covered over so much. that they might never get in touch with. it most people I think. think are quite capable of getting there. once they decide that they want to yeah. I.

think what scares me I think is. that in order. to be a human being we have to have the. present moment right we have to yeah be. able. to still. have like the ability to reflect and. recognize and think and our society or. our culture has created a lot where. we're so many distractions so that if we. never even take the time if they can.

dist if we can be distracted enough from. being able to really think or feel yeah. feel really probably starting with. feeling yeah. then then we'll be trapped forever in a. way well does that make sense at. all it's interesting how you say all. these really insightful things then you. keep asking me if it makes sense or not. sorry don't apologize I can't think and. talk to at the same time I can't feel. and speak at this it's just no but I'm.

I'm just telling you that yeah I'm not. I'm not I'm just noticing something yeah. I don't feel like you are appreciated. thanks so here's the thing we're born as. feeling creatures right we feel before. we think yes the feeling. apparatus is present in us before we. were even born the thinking apparatus. doesn't start developing till much later. on that's true so that if there's a. scaffolding of healthy.

feelings then our thinking will be. aligned with. reality um but it's the feelings that we. we're. feelings we're feeling creatures before. we're thinking Creatures got it so what. you made what you said makes absolute. sense from the even from The. evolutionary and physiological point of. view like animals feel but they don't. necessarily think in fact they don't. think some don't but but without.

thinking uh without feeling they. wouldn't survive right you know and and. we think we can get by our own thinking. we got it backwards yes that's what it. feels like these days yeah it feels like. everybody's just thinking it's like even. with like. um like autonomous inventions and. Technology I'm like at a certain. point I don't want any more technology. if it's not helping us I know like what. stop like you're killing what it means. to be me or not me as a h but just us it.

feels like we don't need to get faster. it's just like you're going to take jobs. away if a God doesn't have a job he. doesn't have a purpose having having a. job isn't only your purpose but it it's. what gives people some sense of purpose. and I mean a sense of meaning and a. sense of meaning right and once you. don't feel like you have any of that. then what are you it's like we're almost. just I don't understand why our society. wants that well um first of all I. totally get where you're coming from cuz.

when we talk about AI my my mind glazes. over I don't care yeah I don't want one. more piece of technology I'm much more. interested in what happens with human. beings 100 that's man thank you dude. that's how I feel yeah I just care how. people feel you know and I'm just like I. don't know and when you talk about. meaning if you look at at. the um diminishing. lifespan of.

especially white American men is said. loss of meaning when they hollowed out. the industrial Heartland of America and. they outsourced all the you know cheap. labor to other countries well you can. see that from the profit point of profit. motive it makes sense but from the point. of view of human lives you just dep. deprive people of of the sense of. meaning you know and that sense of. meaning it's a psychologist friend of. mine calls this location is a major.

source of distress and a major source of. of of of um self harm yeah and addiction. well I even think like it used to be and. I say this many times but like somebody. worked in your area and they worked at a. factory and they made a like a table and. they brought it and you you even had one. of the tables at your house and you were. proud of your dad cuz he work there and. and he made it and then but now you have. somebody in another country mailing. something over here they don't care.

about it that they're making it their. kids don't know even what they do. probably you know and it just it's just. like where is the vict I don't. understand what level of this we're. going to get to that is. healthy well I think now what we're. talking about here is the um good old. Prophet motive because profits don't. care about human values you know and and. and. uh most companies that's what they're.

interested in is what will maximize. profits and if they have to throw a. thousand people out of a job in some. Town they'll do it yeah you know and uh. I don't understand that though well work. I think is very important to people I. mean we're creatures who work yeah no I. just read a really interesting book by. the way it's called the the Continuum. concept published 40 years ago or so. this woman goes to. the Venezuelan jungle 6 weeks away from.

civilization and she watches how these. Stone Age people bring up their kids. that's the book right that the continu. concept uh how they bring up their kids. what they hold them everywhere like we. said they don't punish them they don't. yell at them these kids will grow up. really happy and comfortable with. themselves but the point I'm making is. this tribe they don't have a word for. work H they have a word for cutting wood. they have a word for planting they have. a word for fishing they have a word for.

washing but there's no word for work in. other words they just do what they do. yeah but there's no alienation from it. right whatever they're. into they're just into it that's what. they're doing but they don't it now here. we talk about work life balance but look. at that phrase what does that imply that. here's life and here's work. and the two are not the same yeah it's. almost like we enslaved ourselves what. we.

have and then also our society as you're. saying creates so much stress and. uncomfort because like say if you took. something that's supposed to be. somewhere and you put it somewhere else. it's going to always feel stressed. because it's not like in its home right. it's not in its natural spot funny you. should say that because I often say. you can study a zebra and you could. conclude that the zebra is an animal. that mostly lies around all day gets up.

a few times to eat or to defecate or. something and then lies down again walks. around a little bit and it would be true. if you observe the zebra in a zoo in a. cage but if You observe the zebra out. there on a Savannah or wherever he she. lives you see a totally different. creature oh they're turned out there and. and the human beings in a sense we put. our El into a zoo We we we're so far. away from our natural evolutionary. environment it's not a question again of. going back to Stone Age but it's a.

question of recognizing what we've lost. yeah in a certain sense we've put. ourselves into a zoo and we're studying. ourselves totally out of our elements. and then we're wondering how come things. are going so badly yeah. crazy it's almost and I hate to even. laugh at it but you're saying it's. absurd it's absurd we're literally. living in a theater of the Absurd yeah. um in your book you also talk about like.

the history of humanity that uh what we. call civilization is less than 5% of our. existence as a species right that for. the entire span of the human genus that. it represents less than 1% yeah of that. time yeah like our civilization right. we're such a small piece of how long. humans have been alive yeah um and we. have learned that such groups a long. time ago held values emphasizing. Hospitality sharing generosity and. reciprocal exchange for the purpose not.

of personal enrichment but of connection. these values were intelligent - tested. guidelines for Mutual. survival um yes there was violence and. bad behavior and all the rest we have. never been. perfect um but we knew something about. setting the collective context for our. humanist to flourish fruitfully yeah. that it was a group effort. it was a group thing and people never. saw themselves as separate from the. environment or from animals right or. from other human beings yeah and um in.

British Columbia excuse me where I live. um the indigenous people used to have a. ceremony called a potlatch and the. potlatches they would invite all these. people neighbors and other tribes and so. on and they'd give things to each. other so it wasn't about getting it was. about. giving when the British colonialists. arrived you know what they did they. outlawed the Potlatch damn because they.

wanted to kill that Spirit of. communality wow that the indigenous. people thrived on so they knew how to do. it so they. forbade a lot of the practices that gave. the indigenous people meaning including. the. giving and until very recently decades. ago it was. outad so people that to do stuff in. secret you know they they outla the. chanting they had they had to chant in.

secret right you know and because they. knew the healing power of the chance and. the Chance really connected indigenous. people to their. Traditions now the colonists did this. everywhere they did this in the states. they did it in Australia and New Zealand. they did it in uh Canada of course. course parts of Africa and so that a. real effort was made to divorce people. from their essential.

communal. um. drives yeah but that's what it feels. like it that's what it feels like inside. like we're not supposed to be doing this. yeah you know yeah um one one woman that. you mentioned darcia narvas yeah Dara. narvas Dara narz um said that we have. become species atypical a sobering idea. when you think about it no other species. has ever had the ability to be untrue to.

itself to forsake its own needs never. mind to convince itself that such is the. way things ought to be or to destroy its. own environment yeah you know yeah I. still wonder if Mother Nature is mad. about like if some of the diseases we. have now are because of like what. happened to the indigenous cultures you. know if some of that just like is like. you know because Mother Nature remembers. you know and so it's like are we still. just suffering the sins of like what's. happened a long time ago we are yeah and.

uh the problem is we haven't learned. from it yet like actually I work a lot. with indigenous people in Canada they. often invite me to talk about addiction. and stress and Trauma and so on oh some. of them we did a show in Vancouver some. of them came out to the show did they. and they gave me some gifts oh fantastic. yeah really really beautiful beautiful. isn't it yeah it was awesome man yeah it. was great it was really nice of them but. but.

but so so I do a lot of that. work but I get so much from it because. they have such deep wisdom like even. with all their trauma and all the. dysfunction all the addiction and mental. illness amongst them which is strictly a. result of colonial trauma uh but there's. still such gentle wisdom there's still. such connection I I I I remember doing a. ceremony with. them some indigenous friends two years.

ago art and. nature they talk to every plant wow. they're so connected you know such deep. wisdom and I actually. believe that when this Society starts. heading getting his head screwed on. right will be very humbly willing to. learn from the indigenous people yes you. know like yes civilization has brought. many amazing things not to forget that. but what if we. could.

Mel our technological knowhow and and. and and and scientific Brilliance with. indigenous wisdom yeah what a world we. could actually create and maybe that is. where we're headed right I think that. has to be the hope well I that's you. know that's I believe that's certainly a. possibility yeah I think that has to be. the hope that we take away yeah because. if I were ever a leader I think we would. get back to some of the things that were. important you know you know one of my. favorite times when I was a kid the. power would go out sometimes yeah and so.

we'd all have to like Mom would put a. couple candles out and so we'd all have. to be right there together yeah and it. was just like yeah I don't know all that. mattered was just like um like you could. joke and but it was like I don't know it. like we just all needed each other you. need to know where everybody were is. everybody here I don't know there was. something special about that but you can. see it even now um when there's. disasters MH people really come together. right they tend to come together to.

support each other yeah they'll go out. of their way to to give and to support. oh for sure you SE with the flooding and. stuff in the Southeast right now many. places all over the world um yeah I. think there's so much to learn from our. natives from uh from the indigenous. people of the land you know just as we. learned from animals and all parts of. nature well Dar was the the scientist. the psychologist that you mentioned. she's written a book called the evolved. nest and she's talking about our.

commonality with other animals and how. they rear their their young and what we. could learned from them oh wow yeah. that's that's an amazing little book I I. I wrote the forward for it um there has. done some amazing work on on the actual. needs of human beings really she pretty. fascinating woman which she is very. interesting very interesting if you ever. want to talk to her I'm happy to connect. you that would be really cool you. Canadians are dang interesting man well. Dara is American oh she is yeah yeah she.

all right we'll take it no no she's. a retired professor at University of. Notre Dame wow and she's still very. active and this book is called The evolv. Nest it's just a slim little volume yeah. but you should learn about how penguins. bring up their kids or Wolves. when a mother. dies then wolves who haven't even been. pregnant start. lactating to feed the young ones wow you.

know and how when the baby elephant is. born you know what happens all the other. mother elephants put their trunks on it. all the other mothers you know they they. stand around they touch the baby they. know the need for touch I mean there's. incredible wisdom in animals as well and. Dara and her writing partner G Gabe bro. they really show us the lessons we could. actually derive just from watching our. animals bring up their young we still.

have a lot to learn is that the best. message to take away from your book do. you think we still have a lot to learn. and and and we need to be humble we need. to realize that for all our achievements. and our intellectual Brilliance we've. come disconnected from our hearts from. our gut feelings and that we need to. really be curious. about our hearts and our guts are. telling us not just our intellects amen. yeah we need an uh an emotional.

Revolution that's a good way to put it. um before before you go um and thank you. so much for your time oh pleasure yeah. um there's a part Rafi there's a guy in. the book Rafi or Rafi Rafi no RAF is a. children's singer a children's sing oh. yeah that's guy that's him I'd like to. be him. the sea yeah is that him no no that's. Ringo Star oh you're singing octopus of. garden yeah oh Jesus but but Rafi used.

to sing baby Beluga oh yeah you know and. app zambo no is that song yeah yeah and. banana phone and he says we discover who. we are from the inside you wrote that on. the book and and. rafie actually played at in the White. House at at the Clinton um inauguration. oh sweet and he's like the children's. trador of the world yes when I was a. child we listen to all yes they had they. had all of it um s is a friend of mine. oh excellent and uh at some point he.

some years ago he works middle wakes up. wakes up in the middle of the night and. the world child. honoring comes into his head and he says. what would the world look like if we. honor children and the needs of children. so he started this child honoring. Institute now the thing about his. singing for children is just not. condescending he really plays with kids. and really gets them and um and his.

heart is really so childlike so he says. whatever the quote was that yeah that. that we we discover who we are from the. inside we discover who we are from the. inside and he's actually talking about. how human beings develop which is. through our feelings first and those. feelings begin in the uterus so already. when a mother is stressed the Char feels. that in the uterus and that stresses the. child and that interferes with the.

child's brain development so that. um actually we develop our sense from. our feelings first and as I said earlier. then the intellect comes in right but if. the if the emotional circuits are out of. balance because of early stress then. it's hard for us to even things straight. right and our society we have is women. so so many mothers have to work it's. like we we've just yeah we've we're a.

little misconstrued well the United. States 25% of women have to go back to. work within two weeks of giving birth. and what nature would prefer. scientifically and physiologically is. for the baby with the mother for at. least 9 months yeah but actually for. years now. or if not the. mother but at least with the mother for. at least nine months but I ideally well.

beyond then but with other nurturing. adults right so it's not just caregivers. who give you food and right it's the. mother the grandmother the aunt the. neighbor the sense of community your. whole genes being right there like. exactly yeah there's how did we get off. on such a different tangent then if we. were if we were to be in these these. tribes these groups these it's just. Evolution and there's nothing we can do. about it well that's you know um that's.

civilization right civilization which is. got obviously brought all kinds of. benefits but also look at yeah all that. we've lost so again it's for me um can. we value our achievements and our. knowledge and Trust try to remember what. we've lost yeah and try to. reconnect with those parts of ourselves. that we've kind of got divorced from.

yeah yeah when you yeah and your. children just look into them pour into. them what you want out of them you know. yeah pour into them as much as you can. and yes some some you kids don't know. how to feel sometimes you have to also. talk them about their feelings no you. don't they know exactly how to feel they. don't have the words for so you. they know how to feel it's our job to. give them words for their feelings right. it's right it's our job to give them. words for their feelings right so yeah. if you're a child if you're not doing.

that it's it's not a judgment and I. don't have any children but that's what. I could have used when I was young it. was like how do you feel let me help you. with this oh not even how you feel. you're really angry with Daddy right now. cuz you wanted a cookie before dinner. and daddy said no cookie so now you're. really angry aren't you yeah you know so. it's not even we don't have to tell them. how to feel they they're feeling. creatures we have to accept their. feelings okay that doesn't mean we give. them the cookie yeah but it it means.

that we do understand why hey hey I. understand you want that cookie yeah you. right now you really mad at Daddy okay I. get it I get it yeah you know that's all. yeah yeah that doesn't. mean you're allowed to hit your. brother but I get that you're angry so. so we we're not talking about permissive. parents parenting um we're talking about. authoritative parenting not. authoritarian authoritative where the. child is understood and held and guided.

and we give them words for their. feelings but we don't ask them to. suppress. themselves we may not accept certain. behaviors or put limits but we know how. to do that if the child trusts you and. is looking to you like natives the. indigenous people like we said earlier. never had to never hit their kids cuz. the kids trusted the adults for guidance. right you know so which all comes from. connection 100% and now we're learning.

so many things we learn them like you. know through a YouTube video or through. we we learn so I mean now most people. learn about sex through pornography it's. just. like yeah yeah yeah yeah we need each. other. to yeah we need each other and are we're. create we're creating more more that we. don't that's right and and and we. creating more and. more that if you have needs there's. something wrong with you yeah if you. have emotional needs you're weakling you.

know oh one day our feelings will be in. a museum you'll go visit them there like. hey remember remember this they used to. have. that um Dr Mon thank you just for. putting all this together it's really. fascinating you I mean you have so many. um uh other like uh therapists and. scientists and philosophers and uh. doctors and everything you qu that. you've quoted in here to really put. together a beautiful piece of work here.

thank you it's really fascinating and. it's not all like Debbie Downer stuff. either and and I don't mean to be and I. don't think we were that much in this. conversation it's just looking at things. and saying hey well let let's take a. look at where we are possibly how did we. get here well that's my intention and my. intention is to promote healing actually. it's not just to spread Doom and Gloom. and uh actually the healing part of the. book is the longest part of the book I'm. not there yet yeah yeah but yeah yeah I. hope you get there someday um I think I. will yeah I've been reading that a good.

clip I'm enjoying it well I'm glad to. hear that thank you it was uh if I can. boast can I boast sure I'm would love. you it was 19 weeks on the New York. Times bestseller list let's go for a. year and a half he was a Canadian. bestseller it's been published in 41. languages now internationally and it's. been a bestseller in a whole lot of. countries so I think there's value in. this book well I think also that it's. good to know that uh enough people are. starting to um recognizing some of this. same thought you know that itself those.

numbers itself and that prolificness. gives is a source of hope I think I. think what's happening actually is that. as Society in some ways goes more into. CR crisis also more and more people are. waking up yeah and they're still ask. questions and I see that as a good thing. yeah I do too thank you for letting me. ask you questions today um thank you for. uh yeah just for your time so many of my. friends love you and look up to you and. I had my own therapist was like he's.

asking I'm like you're my therapist but. he was excited that I was getting this. sit now with you so um yeah thank you so. much for uh your commitment to curiosity. and thanks for your time now I'm just. floating on the and I feel I'm falling. like these leaves I must be Cornerstone. oh but when I reach that ground I'll. share this piece of mind I found I can. feel it in my.

bones but it's going to take.