Craigslist Founder Craig Newmark | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #550

I have some new tour dates to let you. know about I'll be in East Lancing I'll. be in Toledo Ohio. Rama Ontario in the Canada Pittsburgh PA. Eugene Oregon Kenwick Washington Seattle. Washington Victoria BC in the Canada. College Station Texas belon Texas San. Antonio Durant. Amarillo Oxford Mississippi had had f.

Arkansas. peace Tuscaloosa Alabama. rad and Tallahassee. Florida Rosemont Illinois. Winnipeg um and Calgary in the Canada. get all your tickets at. the.com thank you so much for your. support and thank you to the fella in. Montana that give me this jacket got. some Indian artifacts on the. back and just want to say thank you.

really like this. jacket we've also got some new merch. some new gang gang. teas um in Pepper and ivory and we've. got a new gang gang hat that. gig uh check those out in more at. theovon. store.com um happy holidays to everyone. today's guest is an entrepreneur and a. philanthropist he worked at IBM he. worked at Bank of America but most. people know him as the founder of. Craigslist a site that is given given so.

many unique experiences to the world. we're so happy to get to spend time. today with Craigslist own Craig new. Mar I will find a song I will. [Applause]. sing and just want to let you know like. we're just excited you're here and we.

don't have any this isn't like a like a. got you podcast we're not trying to do. anything uncomfortable um you know. obviously you've had a very unique life. and um we just want to I think we're. curious about it you know well two. episodes ago you had Ryan Maron yeah and. I learned one big thing on uh on. thinking about what he had said so uh. I'm I'm prepared to even mention that. because uh he made me realize something.

which I won't be able to do anything. about but at least understanding helps. oh about anger yes yeah yeah he's uh. yeah I thought Ryan Martin was really. interesting he's a professor over in. Green Bay because I think anger is. something that's kind of enveloping. people a lot these days you know I find. it a lot in myself and you almost get I. me obviously it's it's kind of. embarrassing you know it's a weird. feeling that's like you know it can lead. to a lot of negativity can lead to you. know dangerous activities but it also. you I feel you get embarrassed of it you.

know and it kind of just takes you over. well in my case it's tied in with some. traumatic. stress and my deal is I learn the hard. way that no good deed goes. unpunished I learned that a person who's. basically honest will never be able to. successfully deal with a person who lies. for a. living uh that's very frustrating. because I have to keep it in somay. somebody May uh be able to do to deal. with it maybe with some help from me.

someday uh some. situations may turn into uh some real. drama possibly criminal referrals but. I'm the kind of guy who people for years. have been told have been telling me that. uh some areas I just don't have the. skills and I contribute by not. talking so do you feel like you're kind. of a quiet guy sometimes uh generally. quiet generally restrained except for.

reasons of uh. comedy I uh um know I know that I'm not. as funny as I think I. am and yet like I tell my philanthropic. grantees that uh I would like for them. to tolerate my sense of humor but not. encourage me okay nice and so far that's. worked out well um particularly last. night the Bob Woodruff thing I did. briefly hang out what was it last night. just so just TW to our listeners now.

yeah last night there was a uh. fundraiser for the Bob wooder Foundation. they run a network called goty six goty. six goty six like in the military sense. got your back yeah and uh about 350. organizations who are actually good at. helping and many philanthropic. organizations are challenged when it. comes to actually helping but these guys. are good they need a lot of money to. help out.

help out vets and their. families and uh this was both a comedy. concert and a music concert the guys I. think was Mike Mark Norman oh Mark. Norman was there yeah yeah he's great. we're both from New Orleans well start. starting from there there's uh Jim. Gaffigan wow uh Jerry. Seinfeld and John Stewart on the comedy. side which was great for me yeah um and. then on the music side Nora Jones.

and then there's this guy uh uh. Springstein yeah CU I i' had spoken to. him before yeah and I told him uh that. uh as a nerd I I understood that he was. very popular but that I don't know his. music and he reacted uh uh quite. satisfactorily um his jaw dropped his. wife this was a few years ago but his. wife got the joke immediately that the.

better part of the joke is I was being. literal I really am a nerd yeah I'm the. kind of guy in the uh late 60s in high. school I wore a plastic pocket protector. thick black glasses taped together no. social skills so you really you did you. kind of embody that nerd V like you were. like you saw nerd and you were like I'm. going to be over here I'll be there uh I. had to uh originate right here uh you. found the the store of uh old photos oh.

wow that's me in high school that's. those are the thick black glasses oh. yeah not taped together at the time now. see I can simulate or fake normal human. social behavior now but it is a. simulation I have to uh I have to work. hard on it all the time uh and after a. while I will start getting uh start. getting cranky okay but the nerd cliche. originated right around when I was. around so so I do take credit for it.

well we're glad to have one of the most. nerious humans um Craig Newark thanks. for hanging out man I appreciate it you. know we're in we're in the Chelsea Hotel. number two do you know that I know. you're a Leonard Cohen fan yes so and. this is he had songs based that were. based out of here I think he spent time. with Janice Jin here he did yeah. allegedly and well I'm uh I near where I. live in the uh in the village not far. away way walking distance MH um I have a.

friend my comedy consultant and he lived. here during that Heyday he knew both of. them and others um he was intimidated by. uh by Leonard con see this friend was in. the process of transitioning from music. to Comedy which turned out to be easier. for him to do he was really big in the. 70s and 80s he may not have invested. well um because I saw him uh saw him.

yesterday um but he's uh much funnier. than I am for real yeah okay and uh. that's why I know that I'm not as funny. as I think I am very fair you look you. got you're you're doing okay with me so. far you know uh thank you if I knew you. better I'd I believe comedians indulging. indulge in a practice called uh uh. breaking balls oh yeah I will introduce. my friend sometimes as a guy who used to. be funny uh-huh.

I will tell them oh yeah comedy. requires actually funny material yeah. yeah that's a good that's a good. starting that's a good starting point. but he's he's given me a couple jokes to. use reminding me that at my at his age. and my age when you get down to tie your. shoes you look around and you think what. else can I do while I'm down. here and uh unfortunately that's turned. true when I do get down I'm I'm I have. some worries about being able to get.

back up again yeah yeah yeah yeah once. you get on the ground floor again some. you kind of want to stay down there I um. I used to we used to listen to L Leonard. Cohen when I was a kid my mom would put. it on when we would uh when we would. have to clean the house on Saturdays and. my mom would put it on um that I. remember that song uh when the walls. came down okay that's uh older School. even for Leonard all the way to hell and. we be like all right I'll I'll clean. yeah I uh vaguely.

remembered uh him well in like 88 or so. uh I'm your man premiered and I love. that and first Will Take Manhattan and. then I found uh various positions what. is that first Will Take Manhattan and. with then we'll take Berlin and then. we'll take Berlin yeah dude that's crazy. that those lyrics have mildly been in my. head over the years and I didn't even. know that that's where they were from. they were from Leonard Cohen yeah he. influenced a a lot of musicians after uh.

he's my uh favorite to uh in an. obsessive way and now and then when I'm. in the right mood I will listen to him. he's uh not cheerful by the way most. people think about him he's a little. dark yeah but he's uplifting if you're. into it yeah he reminds me of a kind of. a darker Anthony Bourdain of Music in a. way I uh I haven't thought about that um. but I I'm trying not to think too much. about food okay okay well why you have.

you're well my problem simply is that. since I've been on the run all morning I. did pass a place which had what looks. like a good slice of uh pumpkin pie oh. yeah brother I uh however may have been. disappointed MH so I'll think of. something uh later this afternoon. something a little less risque huh well. my problem is that uh uh food is just. too delicious and it's hard to know to. stop MH yeah well it's funny because at.

the they don't put a stop sign at the. bottom of a dessert or something um that. may or may not be uh helpful I will uh. face the challenge in roughly two hours. okay there we go well we have you for a. limited time today I do want to talk um. you are the Craig from Craigslist yeah. that is true yes okay and um how did. Craigslist start like just I I know. that's a basic question but it's you. don't even think about it as a regular. human we don't even know that you're a.

real we just you don't even know yeah. and I uh occasionally tell people that. Craig is fake like Betty Crocker MH my. deal is that I moved to San Francisco uh. mid uh well mid 93 okay and I saw there. were a lot of people helping each other. out on the net uh sometimes doing so. giving away expensive Consulting. time and I took advantage of that people. helped me settle in told me about. neighborhoods and restaurants and uh.

events that I might get interested in so. you were communicating on the on the. internet just with people looking for. information about being living in a new. area yeah a lot of this was from the. well an early virtual community some. from uset news groups which were the. first big deal discussion boards and. there is a spirit that we were all going. to use the net to help each other out. yeah so I thought I should give back. started a simple CC list.

um telling people about what I thought. were cool events usually uh Arts and. Technology like Joe's digital Diner or. the Anan Salon which was a uh party. fundraiser for a local theater highly in. Tangled with the very earliest Burning. Man oh and I I never got involved with. that because I realized that I'm not a. burner at heart yeah but uh did this. mailing list it started growing via Word. of Mouth.

uh and I started asking for more stuff. than just events like if people wanted. to sell something if people had a job or. an apartment so that's how it started so. you started just emailing people just. with information about things to do in. the area it started to grow and it was. just an actual list of people you were. sending a message to yeah it was. literally an email CC list and that. broke at 240. addresses I had to uh use a list serve I. had to give the thing a name.

I was I'm very literal as a nerd I. wanted to call it San Francisco events. since it was still mostly that yeah I. yeah I don't have much of an imagination. well but then I uh I was going to call. it SF events people around me told me. they had given a name uh Craigslist ah. they told me I had accidentally created. a brand then they explained to me what a. brand is because I was that naive mhm.

they were right called it Craigslist. just kept growing increasingly for the. first 3 years just me and how often was. the was the list going out whenever. somebody had something I would send it. out okay so is that once a week or twice. a month um if I was lucky it could be. let's say something worthwhile a few. times a day oh nice okay the deal is not. that uh big but uh let's say high value. mhm and I was being careful I didn't. want to spam anyone right and it just.

kept. growing um via word of mouth and we've. never really done any advertising yeah. I've never seen yeah I should be careful. I'll wrap around to it but I'm not. involved with the thing nowadays I'm. retired busier than I've been but. retired but yeah the deal is it's just. me for a few years and you're the only. staff member yes and what were some of. those early high value items like what. was something that would come across are. we talking like kind of like a like a a. painting are we talking a like a little.

catamaran what are we talking um mostly. I was thinking about the jobs okay. because one of the best things you could. do for someone is to help them get a job. um sometimes then help them uh well find. a place to live uh what Craigslist is. about in a lot of ways is helping put. food on helping people put food on the. table right you yeah that's a great. point if you can help somebody get a job. it's such a yeah that's residual and it. was uh completely free the first three.

years but the people who were putting. jobs on there wanted me to charge them. for to post for jobs because they felt. some like indebted in some way well they. felt that uh they were paying a lot more. money for job ads and other places with. fewer results less quality results so. they said uh charge us a little bit. that'll pay the bills and they were. right. um experimented a little bit with.

volunteers and charging for jobs in 98. but I got the the idea from people in. 97 running with volunteers didn't work. what do you mean running with volunteers. you mean to help you yes okay and at. that point you're just doing it out of. your home I exactly right first three. years off of your home computer yeah and. how big how big did the email list get. sorry Craig um you know I don't really. know how big it got through that time. because in '96 I remember. that I'm a programmer I can write.

software which turns emails into web. pages and so I started doing that uh. which gave me web publishing for free. okay and I when something started taking. too much of my time I wrote some more. code which reduced what might take an. hour a day to a few minutes a day got it. and that happened number of. times uh but 98 tried running it with. volunteers the people who cared for the.

thing who were doing job postings in. particular said volunteer thing isn't. working uh sometimes things would take a. while to get posted so I had to make the. thing into a real company right so at. that point you're like if I want to keep. this going it's got to there needs to be. some checks and balances and obviously. salaries help help create that yeah I. need to hire other people to do coding. uh customer service uh. billing and uh that me making it into an.

actual uh corporate structure M was that. scary to think about that uh very scary. but the hard part was at that point you. know at events parties I would talk to. bankers and Venture capitalists who. wanted me to do the usual Silicon Valley. thing yeah monetize everything and they. would throw billions at me and uh I was. thinking I don't need billions I don't. understand why people would do that.

speaking and that has to do with in uh. Sunday School Mr and Mrs levven they. taught me that uh you should know when. enough is enough they taught me um to. treat people like you want to be treated. so nothing altruistic this is just a. return to Sunday school values. literally and so we Craigslist. philosophy is to monetize only Those ads. for people who are paying more money for.

less effective ads so not an altruistic. decision right uh just uh Basics yeah. but also a little bit of barrier to. entry which not in a negative way. because you still everybody needs to. hire someone or has the opportunity and. maybe they can't afford the ad but um. but it it provides a little more. structure to even just some basic yeah. it does provide some structure right. well that's useful in the sense that uh.

well everyone is struggling trying to. get through the day right and some. people are selling doing things for. profit like brokering apartments in New. York City M and uh with uh sometimes. with questionable ethics and I found one. year that uh new apartment Brokers might. make like 20K in a year which even 15. years ago you had to work two or three. other jobs wow so I said how do you. balance. the idea that you want to give everyone.

a. break and I was able to suggest stuff uh. to the people running the company at. that point because also in uh again I. made Craigs List into an actual company. in 99 okay so that's when it became an. actual company in 1999 yeah and at that. point are you guys have an office you. guys. have uh we turned it from running it in. a room in my house into a room in a.

commercial strip way out in the. neighborhoods of San Francisco wow. that's cool and the other hard decision. I had to make that year. 99 was that uh I started to realize with. help that as a manager I suck oh yeah. being it's hard to be a manager isn't it. uh very hard because you don't realize. when you're going to go when you're. going to once you start to have. employees and stuff you're like suddenly. I'm a boss and if you never wanted to be. a boss it's a very precarious situation. to be in been there man what what were.

some of the things that you noticed you. were not good at well mostly hiring and. firing okay as a nerd I am not good at. reading people MH and I needed to uh. promote someone who would be good at. that M and I'd already stopped coding. because I hired a bunch of people who. are better than me okay I stepped down. to just do full-time customer service. I'm a great customer service rep okay. not a manager of customer Custer service. but I was a customer service rep and did.

that for maybe around 15 years okay so. you ended up just being a customer. service rep at your own company yes wow. so if somebody had a customer service. issue they would contact you on the. phone or email well with some luck um. they would uh contact someone else on. phone first okay I took that uh luxury. for myself of not having to answer the. phone okay but they would generally. email me because I was just C at. craigslist.org easy to guess so I spent.

a lot of time doing that kind of thing. and got a lot of stuff uh done and you. found yourself effective there um yeah. well I saw uh what I mostly saw was a. lot of goodh that is uh people on the. net are overwhelmingly good uh the uh. bad guys Bad actors get a lot more press. because sometimes uh mainstream media. generates clicks by emphasizing the bad.

yeah this is kind of a normal thing. especially nowadays what were some of um. the ear what were some of the things you. saw in there early that that helped you. to believe in the good and continue to. make it go consistently I saw people. helping each other out consistently I. saw people giveaway stuff that they. could have sold for some cash a like. sometimes uh you don't need the cash and. then you would just give away something. of uh actual value like old computer.

equipment that was pretty good oh yeah a. lot of baby cribs on there a lot of. stuff like that uh in fact that's in. particular that's particularly true uh. baby cribs baby carriages and moving. boxes because which could also be a baby. carriage depending on you know or a cat. toy oh yeah but the idea is that when. you move you have a lot of boxes which. are still really good and the chance. are nearly 100% someone uh not far away.

needs good boxes yeah I used to live. with a guy I lived with this guy named. Kenny for a bit and he was a pretty big. Stoner right and I didn't know him met. him on Craigslist right I get over there. and I end up living over there and he. would stack he had a couple cats and. stuff and at night he was kind of like a. uh I guess kind of an Avant guard like. circusy kind of animal trainer guy but. he would St all the boxes these empty.

boxes in the room and he would make the. cats play on them and he'd make me come. out of my room to watch the show you. know so it was crazy but it was like I. it's something I still kind of remember. about him I kind I guess it was pretty I. thought it was interesting but yeah. people use boxes yeah yeah well the deal. is that uh people everywhere in the. country are uh okay I uh when you're. doing customer service at that deeper. level you see a lot of stuff and most. most of it is great I did see some stuff.

I uh wish I didn't and that's the. problem with content moderation it's a. very tough job especially if it's. full-time and you're not getting paid. much um and so these people are only. seeing questionable stuff and that can. do some damage yeah were you uh so at. that point yeah I guess because. Craigslist started to be this place it. kind of became everything really fast is. what it felt like just as a user right. it became like a first place where you.

could get a used air you know you could. get a blender an air balloon or a. roommate but then it started to escalate. too where there was like um you know. people would buy drugs on there you know. or people you'd see people like um I. would do it you know and you would see. people but they also had code names for. the drugs so it made it to be this kind. of like. um it it had a fun spot to it you know. you'd be on there I mean and they had. like I remember beef jerky was a code. name. um those many bennies they had that.

brain dander that baby hay was one of. them um I'm trying to think of any other. that pedito Blanca was a span but they. you know what it was that Dragon degro. they had um uh I'm trying to think that. whispering mother that was that was a. kind of a native one that they were that. was peyote whisper I know that uh the. mainstream press greatly exaggerated a. lot of this they didn't point out that. what you see on the street always makes. it online and online everywhere you guys.

weren't producing it well what they what. the mainstream press doesn't point out. that if you're a conscientious site you. uh keep around the digital. forensics and because people leave a lot. of trace evidence around uh CSI style. wow and that years and years ago I. talked with a lot of cops who were real. pleased with the way that we kept around. the forensics. um and because of high school history um.

I learned the balance between fighting. crime and the rights of the accused. what's in the Bill of Rights what's in. the Constitution wow so you had to so. you took that upon yourself to it must. have been kind of a tough navigation was. it tough to navigate that personally. because you have this this atmosphere. that people can kind of it's a it's just. a pathway right well what I did is I uh. mentioned this to the boss and to the. lawyers and said that we got to do this.

balance we had the advantage of having. the Electronic Frontier Foundation. available because they're the big. pioneers of all this stuff online what. does that mean the Electronic Frontier. Foundation what they did is they're a. great voice in standing up for the. rights of regular people and that. balance you got to do the right thing to. uh for victims and cops you got to do so. in an American Way meaning looking at. the Bill of Rights and uh if a cop wants.

to see at the forensics there needs to. be something like a subpoena or search. warrant mhm um that's the way things are. done in our country those are the laws. that's a Judicial overview and that's. the ultimate purpose of that was to pre. prevent the kind of abuse we saw under. uh King George uh literally speaking I. did have that really good high school. history teacher he taught the kind of. civics that you don't have nowadays but. I took this in the uh in 1970 I I'm.

really old and you look great well thank. you this teacher was great because he. even took us once to a taping of a. firing line which was William F Buckley. Jr he invented uh American. conservativism at least the modern form. of it and that really influenced me. because at that point I'm gu often a. tangent but at that point I was looking. at that I was starting a take a bit of a. look at. libertarianism that kind of stuff again.

this is more than 50 years ago so it's. funny because you kind of ended up in. this space later on where you're like. trying to look at the ethics of like um. communication who has rights what the. how do you protect people but also give. people the freedoms that they are. deserve under their own life is that. what you're kind of saying that's pretty. much it um these days frankly uh I've. given up on politics yeah for some years. I now regard terms like liberal and.

conservative as kind of a yeah. and I gotta well I got to focus on. helping people who protect the country. like there's vets and their families. there's active service members in their. families uh and right now uh we're. beginning to see battles on our soil on. our own systems uh as a precursor to ay. cers Space Warfare when you think about.

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tho to upgrade your selling today. shopify.com. Theo you know since the last holiday. season things have changed certainly um. the world has gotten busier and. different your life has changed maybe. something you did last year you don't do. anymore and something you didn't do now. you. do things. evolve certainly we have that with our. uh online store different items.

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business with the shipping software that. delivers switch to shipstation today go. to shipstation.com use code Theo to sign. up for your free 60-day trial that's. shipstation.com code. tho um right now uh people well like you. are as an influencer you're a. Target um yeah we get stopped for things. and we have to take certain things down.

things that we think are just fair. speech you know we have to put it all. through a filter you know well I'm uh. more worried about our foreign. adversaries and I'm most worried about. our foreign adversaries starting to. compromise our utilities water power and. even our cars because that's a thing. that's happening in the here and now. really you could do a search online for. something called Vault typhoon how do. you spell it vault like an electrical. Vault typhoon like a big storm and the.

FBI have been warning everyone that uh. right now yep what is a volt typhoon a. cyber security expert explains that. Chinese hackers targeting us critical. infrastructure um what is this can you. tell me a little bit about it uh you. mind Craig right now what they're doing. is they're infiltrating home systems to. be used to attack other systems what's. worse is they're attacking the uh. programmable controllers which control. the flow of water into our uh Taps.

they're controlling the flow of. electricity into our homes wow and a lot. of those systems for much of the country. are not. protected the deal is that U most of the. country there are Rural Water Systems. rural electrical systems they don't have. the resources to uh to protect them so a. Chinese hacker a Chinese military hacker.

could get in there uh and sway our. elections and stuff well we sway our. water waste sway if we have access to. water well what they can do is turn off. the water supply and so if let's suppose. you wanted to invade a small island. country which was our Ally uh and if the. uh other country our adversary want to. discourage us from fighting on behalf of. our Ally they could just started shut. they could start shutting off water and.

power and uh you know if they did that. where you're living that would kind of. ruin your day yeah yeah yeah and for. that matter they could uh they could. compromise uh cars which are Internet. devices oh that's true especially as. cars become more electric yeah and more. like digital really yes they could shut. off your car stole it out in the middle. of rush hour traffic if they did that in. a city like New York if they could just. do 100 cars that snars traffic.

indefinitely wow yeah you do that and. then they shut the power down and now. things are getting really weird yeah and. uh all they would have to do is show. they could do it and uh that would uh. that's where the military is headed. these days it is not replacing uh. shooting Wars yeah but it's uh more. powerful like in World War II um the war. came to our Shores a little bit in. whatever is happening next it's going to.

be a much bigger thing I'm planning to. issue a national call to action wherein. we tell everyone that we need to protect. our homes utility companies need to. protect themselves we're trying to build. the networks of networks where everyone. can protect each. other um I'm I'm not the guy to really. be Paul Rivier right uh because that. would require like social skills mhm and. remember I'm a nerd but you could be his.

horse maybe well I need to be something. um but the deal is as as I issue this. called action as I point out that many. utilities are not protected I'm going to. piss off a lot of people you think so um. why would they be upset I don't. understand that part well sometimes uh. people kill the. messenger and I got so I'll do it. carefully we're ramping up. slowly um we have this uh pause Take N. campaign so when you get a like a.

suspicious email that could be fishing. and our adversaries are really smart. they're as smart as our guys yeah and uh. we need to know how to fight back I need. to consider uh helping out a new group. being funded at Vanderbilt at Vanderbilt. yeah oh nice that's where I live in. Tennessee well they've just uh started. within the past couple weeks started a. new facility which which is going to be. led by uh General Paul nakason who led I.

think it was cyber command and they have. this uh philosophy of a defense forward. where they're uh not waiting for the. adversary to come and get us we're. taking more active measures and that's a. big concern for you so that's something. you donate to right well that's a big. area like one big area and Veterans and. military families and I've now committed. to 200 million wow and I've already.

spent more than half of it uh for cyber. security I've also committed a couple. hundred million this is not altruistic. this is just well I was raised in the. 50s to be a. patriot this is just me following. through with uh. Basics and uh I uh got the cash I'm not. much for luxuries I do uh get all the. streaming Serv serves I want and I do. have a uh larger TV than I should yeah I.

won't say. anything um and uh beyond that um well. again back to uh Sunday school you want. to know when enough is enough right you. have to give back yeah we talk about. that on here sometimes I wonder if there. should almost be a law I mean you could. have make it a law but that at a certain. point people somebody doesn't need any. more money you know like because then it. becomes you see some people that just. have so it's like what are you doing. like yeah you know it becomes almost. this obsessive thing where um I don't.

know it just it seems scary to think. that some people have so much money well. I don't uh judge any of that everyone. decides what's uh right for. themselves and that's none of my. business okay I figure I should put my. money where my mouth is and then uh try. to get some uh good stuff done uh make. the occasional mistake and some of my. decisions uh weren't great. but they weren't really mistakes you.

mean like in what investing and stuff. like that you mean or just I don't. invest really okay I uh do I guess yeah. what uh in the libertarian movement and. the related Financial stuff in the 70s. early 70s there was this idea of capital. preservation because inflation was. really bad then so people were uh. finding assets which uh where they could. preserve their capital of course I was. in I didn't have much right but I invest.

in the literal sense very little I just. want to keep what I have for nonprofits. and some for myself and I want to keep. that uh safe yeah and but that's the old. libertarian. background um these days My Philosophy. is much more mixed because I'm uh you. know told in Sunday school and elsewhere. that you do want to. well now and then you go on to be your. brothers or Sister's Keeper now and then.

you want to help people out who need a. hand how you do that effectively no one. knows the real answers for but I can do. a couple things it's not altruistic it's. just uh Basics MH and I learned all that. uh over 60 years ago I mean I realized. recently how formative that was that's. when I started reading uh science. fiction yeah it's funny how the young. years you they're little things you'll. keep I still remember like certain.

things that I told someone I would do. like 25 years ago and every day every. couple of days someone was like hey. don't forget you still have to do that. little thing you know um it's funny how. how like those formative years and. things that we hear when we're young um. can have such an in in uh such an effect. on us even as we grow older um I want to. talk a little bit more about the actual. site so the company starts growing right. and in addition to people helping each. other get jobs people helping each other. people were starting relationships on. there I went on dates off of um.

Craigslist before you know good did you. yourself ever go did you no I I that. always felt like a conflict of interest. and uh that's true if you're like hey. I'm Craig yeah I got I got lucky in a uh. I got lucky in a uh local cafe oh you. met your wife your wife okay and we've. been together for over 20 years now wow. and if so if you have kind of some. social awkwardness what was that like. for you. uh I decided I would take a big chance.

yeah I've been there dude and uh uh told. her that uh she's. beautiful the guy next to me she tells. me he rolled his eyes yeah and because. he rolled his eyes that's why she. started talking to me oh wow she so. there was a little bit of some empathy. there human empathy uh well it could. have been a Pity discussion it's another. way to say viously I uh obviously I. Charmed her yeah that's a spirit like so.

last night we were at this uh. fundraiser uh because I think she wanted. to meet Jerry Seinfeld in particular and. uh I uh don't blame her I uh had nothing. to say I was Tongue Tied but uh that's. uh how I uh normally act when I uh talk. to celebrities particularly if you're. backstage and there's a show going on. yeah and having done a little bit of. that you got to get your head into the.

moment and you don't want a distraction. right yeah that's a good point you just. want to kind of be a fly on the wall. some sense yeah wow so uh so you started. off said hello in a cafe and then how. long um was that did was your. relationship how long did that um kind. of dating life go for you guys well um. after about 9 years I think uh I uh. brought her over to I showed her. Facebook on a screen I don't really use. it anymore but I said is it okay if I.

change my relationship status to engage. wow and it took her a moment but she. said oh that that's good because I I. calculated at that point that uh uh. parental pressure had grown. significantly from yours and hers uh. hers okay um and uh that worked out uh. pretty well that's a pretty Suave online. move that's almost the most online line. way you could ask someone to marry you I. feel like uh well uh I hate to say it.

but if you consider that Suave you may. also be a bit of a nerd I have I that. when I think when it comes to yeah have. yeah there's like yeah deal talking with. women it definitely it's not my you know. I wouldn't yeah yeah I uh you're not. yeah yeah I okay that's the nerd cliche. again I uh I'm yeah I'm still socially. awkward. sometimes I can disguise that yes but. that's still uh me and it's not going to.

change now that I'm in my uh Sunset. years yeah yeah yeah sometimes it. doesn't go away you kind of start to. learn it I think I've just had the I I. have the tough thing of asking a girl. out like sometimes I'm okay with talk I. I'll get good with talking with a woman. but it's just that next part and we'll. just be standing there and we'll be like. well somebody should ask somebody out or. walk away from somebody and then you're. just still just standing there yeah well. that's the purpose of misconnections. yeah which anecdotally I know Works once.

in a while because I've encountered uh. over the years a bunch of uh couples. which had gotten uh married no off of. misconnections yes and uh I like that a. great deal it is uh romantic in a. understated way oh yeah well how did. that start how did that misconnection. start well Jim decided he wanted to put. it up he was the boss then so he did oh. Jim was the um guy running the company. at that point um when I realized that.

again I'm a terrible manager I already. hire Jim who's a good manager Jim what's. Jim Buckmaster Jim Buckmaster yeah yeah. you'll see pictures of us uh together. and if it looks like we're at eye level. it's because I'm standing on a box okay. he's a he's a smaller guy he's a big. he's a foot taller than me he's a taller. guy okay so it makes for uh good there. oh there you are yeah actually have your. box that's uh the old office space and I.

was the one who uh who suggested the the. gag there yeah and and kudos to your. guys for being really good at pulling. stuff up Craigs list.org yeah man when. you guys were the first one to do.org. people were like what is it people. thought I meant Oregon people didn't. even know what you know where is it well. it was an early use of it and our. approach was to be this minimal. monetization thing and there's no.

category for that online so that caught. the spirit and uh worked yeah and um and. so misconnections do you remember like. the first misconnection that was ever. put up or the first personal that was. ever put up I'm sure people ask you that. a lot don't remember much of that at all. um I everything is a blur and. unfortunately I wasn't smart enough to. keep a lot of uh Records and so a lot is. uh lost like from the uh internet.

archive and the Wayback machine I could. see the first site that I put up was a. mid or late. 96h and that was pretty good and I. evolved that kind of minimal style like. right now our site hasn't changed much. in appearance yeah in 30 years why is. that well I talked to a lot of people. and they want it simple fast effective. MH they want what you see is what you. get and we've heard from a lot of.

designers who want uh fancy yeah and. fancy may not be uh the answer for a lot. of things yeah sometimes you know you do. see something which is impressive uh. fancy and yet effective but that seems. to be the uh minority wow yeah yeah yeah. this is you know what you want what do. you want you want heavy equipment. outside of South Jersey what do you want. you know you want biotech out you know.

in um mesino you know you want legal. issues you know you want Rod shares you. want Rodeo interest outside of Fort. Worth it's just it's all right there you. know yeah you can put it together quick. even a simple even someone who isn't. technologically advanced could go here. and the even the the the the terms you. have on there it's like child care right. pets Rants and Raves it's like it's just. it's every anything you could need is. kind of right here and that means the. site is always uh fast mhm and it oh.

because it's not a lot of big back. background wow and see we've helped. people in the tens of millions or more. put food on the table but also jobs you. mean and selling things uh exactly okay. and advertise their services but also. we've the site is so simple we've shown. tens or maybe hundreds of mil millions. of Americans. that the internet could be useful and.

reasonably easy to use and that meant a. lot of people who uh may have been. hesitate hesitant to get on the net they. get on the net and again that's uh. fairness for everyone that's treating. people like you want to be treated and. uh that ain't bad yeah fairness that's. an important word huh you it's important. to you uh very much so because uh you. try sometimes it's hard there are often. tough decisions to be made and uh but.

Jim uh took over that for the company. and you know maybe he's done a better. job than I ever could and I did make for. a great customer service rep what what. made you choose Jim Buckmaster what was. it about him when you interviewed him uh. he believed in the mission and he was uh. good on the technology side because he. in a way had two jobs. a manager and programmer because uh.

getting good programmers is hard MH and. Jim over time hired a tech staff. everyone better at their job than I was. wow that's cool it's also cool to hear. you recognize that like yeah these. people are better than I was you know to. learn where your spaces were best uh. yeah I'm funnier than any of them are of. course uh but that's a uh that's may not. be a high bar. and well they did sometimes did great. things and like they would sometimes.

pull out great uh uh great ads of All. Sorts particularly. misconnections and for a while ran a uh. running best of Craigslist although I. haven't looked at that in a while. because see with the uh philanthropy. stuff I'm doing that's consuming I'm now. working harder than I've ever been wow. um because I I guess I am in a mission. uh you know vets and their families need. our help so that's one of your important.

causes I know independent journalism. veterans um what is another. philanthropic cause you enjoy. specifically also active service members. and their families okay without going on. at length I'm shocked that military. families aren't paid enough to uh get. both a good place to live and uh food. yeah and the model used to be the. volunteer army would be single guys well. there's a lot of families they're.

relocated about 600,000 times a year oh. yeah and that's where blue star families. comes in I can go on at Great length and. I think I'll stop there but that's the. name of an organization that you help. support yes well Bob wooder foundation. for vets okay 25 million from last night. wow and I happen to have a meeting an. event with blue star families which. could also use something like that but. which I won't pre-announce a fundraising. event well if you guys ever need a.

comedian at one I'd love to come I can't. believe it I wish I'd have known last. night I would have gone that would have. been awesome well the connection is. through Caroline Hirsch okay who used to. run Carolines and now runs the New York. Comedy Festival yeah that's going on. this week yeah that's a world I know. nothing about uh I kind of would like to. yeah but uh people are uh busy I should. do other things the uh comedy seller is. down the street for me I've never gone. in really yeah well they seem to be.

booked all the time yeah they're pretty. and it's it's limited seating too in. there yeah and they're supposed to up in. at least one more space and. uh yeah I uh should get off my butt and. do something but there's always lots. more work um not only my own work but uh. let's say my in-laws need some help oh. yeah they always do God fortunately we. we can do a good job about that but uh I.

got to stay focused on the areas where. I'm doing some good right the cyber. security part is is part of that because. we you know this is the new war and did. you start to learn that where did that. interest come from did that or where did. that realization that cyber security was. going to be such a big thing was there a. lot of like attacks on security at. Craigslist like did that happen well. there was always something but we had a. good team for that right but did you. have to have that like what would say if.

someone was attacking Craigslist this is. what I'm asking what would they be. trying to get well they would be trying. to disrupt service okay they would try. to uh oh try to steal proprietary. information which did happen what does. proprietary information mean I'm sorry. Craig proprietary information at any. company is like secret information like. uh payroll Client List we didn't have. much of that because we were simple. classified site but people thought that.

we had some uh quote unquote Secret. Sauce yeah some big fancy stuff and the. irony is that that was never the case um. and yet people tried to do things they. there were some problems with leakages. of that. information but uh the problem that I'm. I'm not concerned with that at. Craigslist now I'm concerned I've been. reading about this for decades MH and. now I see that uh an adversary would do.

something like uh well you know they. would try to uh a form of warfare would. be to to try to jam or hack a drone. right if they turn your drone against. you wow you're going to have a bad day. if it's an autonomous drone one that's. figuring out where the enemy is for. itself if they could subvert it they. would turn our autonomous drone back. against us that would make for someone's.

bad day yeah imagine if they if we send. out a drone and it's supposed to get. information send it to a a uh artillery. unit or a missile that's supposed to. fire automatically from the information. from that drone and they're able to hack. it we could you could literally our army. could themselves wow well there's a lot. of mundane things like uh our uh well. our hot water heers at home mhm are uh. you know becoming Internet connected so. sometimes they could diagnose it.

remotely uh boilers like that INF. factories uh there are painting robots. and those things if hacked they could. start running them at. high uh an oven could be just told to. run it high until it burns causes a. fire and if there's a few fires like. that your First Responders can deal but. if there's a thousand you have a problem. yeah if somebody hacks your ovens you. don't even think about that somebody.

hacks your ovens next thing you know. there's 1,00 fires in an area now the. deal is that there's room for optimism. for help because there are already. people who are really good at dealing. with this what I'm doing is gathering. together funding them so that they could. work together starting to work with. local governments everywhere everywhere. through the country um started come up. with let's say some best practices. because we have some breathing space we.

think got it um and the idea is that you. know Water Supplies power supplies they. also go down because of natural. disasters they need to be resilient they. need to be where you knock them down. they can come back up in a small amount. of time it's even funny like even with. drones like when I was a kid you had to. do a little bit of peeping toming right. if you wanted to look in somebody's. window you had to go over there there I. I don't know anything about that yeah. I'm not saying you do yeah and I you.

know and I'm not saying I do you know. what I'm saying but I do you know but I. do I know but yeah somebody here does. and it's me but what I'm saying is this. now as a kid you can use a drone uh and. that's the laziest thing we you had to. go risk getting beat up by a woman's. husband to look in their window even if. they were just cooking or whatever right. I'm not getting lewed with it I'm just. saying you know but now you can just get. a drunk and go do it it's like just. breaks my heart some of that kind of.

stuff well in Manhattan apparently. that's. illegal and like oh right now I wonder I. like my te toise yeah I would get a. drone and I would be bored with it after. a few minutes yeah my neighbor kids. would enjoy it because they would learn. how to use it really well and their. parents have vetoed the idea for the. reason you mentioned I'm sure I didn't. even think about that yeah cuz I'm still. like just squinting real hard and hoping. I'm seeing something well you know it's.

a big problem in New York I bet awesome. lots of big problems lots of big cities. all near each other yeah and a contested. airspace because uh we need the cops to. have drones you know that's just getting. CRA you know yeah it just you don't. think about all those things you don't. think about all the ways that we could. be hacked and the immediate effects of. it you know yeah so we need to protect. ourselves in all sorts of ways way and. that's why you know the idea is to build.

networks of networks of volunteers who. are running let's say the nonprofit. world the NGO world and that way then. they cooperate with other parties but we. do have to uh well it's like World War. II we looked out for each other everyone. tried to play their part and they're. looking out for each other in that uh. positive way MH uh isn't bad yeah and uh. like right now if uh something starts.

happening uh weird with my uh baby. camera equivalent I would like to be. able to get help from someone right and. uh even worse if the uh oven started. running away I would uh want to know. what to do about that yeah yeah when um. when Craigslist when you at what point. were there ever. um like uh categories that you wouldn't.

do were there were there ever um right. very early on we heard in large numbers. that uh uh people didn't want gun sales. on the site and there I am thinking. because I still have some influence then. uh there are constitutional rights there. but one of them is uh property rights so. if you have a site it's your property. you you get to set the rules so you. decide uh what's right and wrong there.

so I believe in uh property rights and. freedom of choice and that's what you. exercise and that's what uh people do. through the net it's your site your. thing you decide what the rules are so. you were able to so you actually got to. decide that or not decided or you in. your team team Okay I uh had an opinion. but I wanted the team as such as it was. to work it out out um that was uh a. little bit of good management but I.

couldn't consistently deliver good. leadership and even now I'm not a top. down kind of leader maybe I could lead. by example uh my frustration in a way is. that I want to be a to lead by example. when it comes there's a lot of people. with a lot of discretionary money uh. billionaires who maybe could be doing. really good stuff with that and uh uh. I'd like to have the skills to inspire.

them I don't have those skills well I. don't even I mean I think even here in. today the things that you care about are. things that sometimes I don't even think. to care about in some ways or or fears. that I don't think that you know you. don't even think that oh somebody has to. we need to have a person needs to donate. to this because maybe our country isn't. worried about it enough yet you know. it's you know so I think it sounds like. you're doing a a good job um when you um. did your company yeah because I'm trying.

to think like so guns was a thing did. you guys end up selling him on there or. no uh no he said uh no guns uhhuh and uh. swords. anything I I have a feeling swords are. okay but I've never thought about it. yeah I'm trying to think of some I mean. because I mean well drugs are illegal uh. they're off so drugs were off but people. would try to skirt around that but even. then of that was sometimes also now were. there ever cop like could the cops use.

your site as well if they wanted to to. like as um decoy type of stuff uh I hear. gossip about that I don't know how true. that really is right because you don't. know right I do know that the cops uh. have used the site in different ways to. uh fight. crime sometimes uh let's suppose they. think they see a stolen item being uh uh. being listed on the site then they would. well this is true for anything on the. net if a cop sees something they think.

is wrong and they have a shot at doing. something about it they send a subpoena. or search warrant to the site and then. the site uh The Operators usually pass. it to their lawyers and then the uh site. operators provide the forensic evidence. to the cops um which again is like CSI. and just fighting uh fighting crime. there the deal is in this country we. have these checks and balances uh in the.

Constitution and Bill of Rights and you. know the uh founders of the country did. a really good job of that yeah you know. there are amendments and so on which we. only thought of years after but the uh. the people who did the initial work did. great work and it uh for the most part. stands up today they they built a good. structure over there yeah yeah well it's. funny cuz you guys there was yeah just. like it's such a part of History you. know it's such a um I mean I went on.

dates from it I remember I met a girl we. I met a girl on I mean I would use. casual encounters too you know it's like. that was sometimes um I met a girl one. time and we watched a Nets game and made. love honestly and she let me sign her. cast right and I was like you know and. it was we had a great time I I think we. I think we dated for there's there's no. accounting for t. yeah but I'm glad I'm glad I know who.

want to be AET fan yeah your guys can. remember that one for later years oh. they've been on there D I think we. accidentally met up once um but there. was a place you know I was like I had. such a tough time at a certain point in. my life dating there was something that. added a level of mystery about it that I. really liked uh I've never thought about. that oh yeah everyone works differently. everyone does have different tastes and. and uh uh that's uh none of my business. yeah you know as long as it's uh legal.

oh yeah it was it was legal did you um. it's funny to say that people started. marriages so people even got married off. of um putting out a dating like I would. like to meet someone yeah wow did you. ever get invited to a wedding or. anything uh I have gotten invited a. number of times I'm uh not much for. ceremonies or Gallas or anything like. that and my relatives uh know this very. well I have a dispensation to not go to.

some of the more obscure events on my. wife's side yeah and I'm and I'm on the. record I'm very grateful. [Laughter]. yeah I think your comedy's getting. better uh I've promised to if I'm. offered open mic night I will not do it. okay. wowow um is pornography causing a. problem in your life. do you find yourself watching porno for. longer periods of time and having.

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recovery and will be your partner mentor. and spiritual guide to transcend these. problematic behaviors to learn more. about Valor recovery please visit them. at. www.v Valor recovery. coaching.com or email them at. admin Valor recovery coaching.com um. thank you when you guys at what point. did you realize okay I need to had you.

had enough of the daytoday what made you. start to decide I want to sell the. company um I haven't sold the company oh. you haven't sold okay sorry here's the. well the history to prevent some. confusion okay I gave a guy some Equity. I made it a gift okay on the expectation. that he'd deliver MH uh that may have. not uh happened but he wanted to sell MH. sold sold to eBay mhm didn't work out. and we uh uh bought that Equity back.

from eBay nice now what I've done is I. had a chunk of equity stock and again. thinking I don't need this so I created. a 501c4. foundation uh put all the equity in. there and that's what generates. dividends and uh sales okay and that's. what I'm using to fund these things ah. so I now have a good idea of uh how much. money I have to give away with in the.

rest of my life because you can look at. the the resid the dividends and the. earnings that's that kind of stuff and I. figure I've got five to 20 years um and. I know roughly how fast I should do it. and my trouble though is that I'm 72 20. years out I may have to conduct due. diligence via a seance yeah and uh Ouija. boards uh don't have the bandwidth I.

need so I may I may just come back and. haunt people yeah hey that would be. awesome yeah oh I could definitely see a. spirit looking for place to stay you. know uh you have an excellent uh point. there although computers don't operate. very well in the in the afterlife. although I making an assumption I I. don't know if that's true um so no so. you still own it oh. I this is an important distinction I now. own no equity it's in that uh Foundation.

501c4 okay so the company was. transferred into a foundation or sold to. a foundation my parts of it other people. do own chunks of the company got it and. they do what's right for them okay me. what's right for me is frankly to keep a. little for. myself um because uh the wife insists. that she needs to buy socks yeah oh yeah. and uh so we have some uh leftover which. we do share with family MH and but the.

vast bulk of it is uh now for charity I. mean just yesterday a guy I guess an. economist analyzed what I would have. made had I done the usual Silicon Valley. thing he said now I'd be worth 11. billion if you had saved the company and. just sold it well if I did the usual. right and maybe he's right I don't know. understand the analysis right but I. don't know what I would do with that 11.

billion uh yeah yeah what would you even. do it how many yeah cuz how much money. can you put in your bank uh well I don't. think about it uh there are some. luxuries I like but I don't own a car. Frank Frankly uh between the subway and. uh and Uber cabs or lift that's what I. need yeah and again this is not. altruistic or anything like that this is. just being uh uh sensible and altruistic.

just so our listeners know altruistic. means that you sometimes value helping. other people more than yourself okay. it's the the Bible thing right and I uh. agree I just uh my variation of uh have. enough to be comfortable and to indulge. your family maybe friends sometimes and. then better to give stuff away it's a. difficult balance because the future is. unpredictable and I guess it's gotten.

more unpredictable but there are people. who need a lot of where I can help yeah. without digging into my uh personal. stuff yeah understood yeah I just wanted. to know because yeah sometimes I forget. and sometimes maybe some of our. listeners forget did you ever feel like. other tech. companies even though they were probably. I bet secretly jealous look down at. Craigslist because it was this like what. was that like I just wonder oh they've. uh they they were quite explicit they.

don't it's not a secret they don't like. this model we have of doing well by. doing good um uh sometimes uh let's say. they're not respectful of it and that's. okay yeah uh the thing is I remember. what I learned in Sunday school and. people often forget and again not Pious. of me or anything like that no I think. it's fair to stand up for also what you. are aiming for well I've met a bunch of. rich people none of them are that all.

that happy yeah and uh yeah having uh. too much money is a uh is a big trap and. you get surrounded by people by yes menh. and you get insulated from the needs of. uh of regular people and that uh does. some real damage how do you keep. yourself balanced from that yeah because. it's interesting because you seem like.

someone who would have a fair answer to. what are some of the side effects the. negative side effects of well the deal. is that it uh of money of having some. money you know or coming into some money. yeah the deal is to uh be a little bit. as cheap as I was when I grew up in the. 50s and uh to do things for yourself or. by yourself like especially going across. town I don't need to take a car uh the. subway is usually better and so I do.

that although I did get here on a limo. because someone else paid for it yeah. and they really wanted to good um so the. deal is that and I uh now and then I. like will go to a fancy dinner oh yeah. that's nice you have to treat yourself. to good food the thing is that you could. find good food a lot uh uh more cheaply. and with a little bit more fun MH and uh. so a lot of those things I just don't uh.

I just don't uh get um and I uh wouldn't. mind having a smaller house but the. wife's side of the family is very very. large yeah I have a one nephew and one. niece uh the nephew just got married and. I had to attend that one yeah uh however. my uh my uh on my wife's side we have 20. uh nephew and nieces oh that's too many. uh well it mostly means that I've.

learned to control my language yeah. because I don't want to uh I don't want. to catch from any of my relatives. yeah and it works out pretty well. typically I know as they say that when. the kid is allowed to watch HBO I'm. allowed to use a saltier languages oh. yeah I like that buddy yeah only salt in. our languages um um yeah I was just. wondering um what was what was was there. one thing like it was whether it was a.

something like a like a like a specific. Leonard Cohen piece a record that he. made that he'd autograph was there one. nice thing you bought for yourself that. um what was something that that was. meaningful to you I bought some of the. prints that he made oh you did okay he's. an artist for real the thing which I. regret is that around here there was an. auction of uh a lot of his letters and. stuff and I should have uh I should have. uh overindulged myself yeah um but I it.

was the first auction I actually. seriously participated in and I just. didn't uh I just didn't get. anything man I don't recognize I don't. have anything in color I did is a black. and white prints and you're heading into. some of the ones that just pass the ones. in the middle right now two of them I. think I have wow that's cool yeah. especially the one that's exactly what I. have really yeah and I may have that one. on a t-shirt wow yeah yeah something.

like that's nice man especially if it's. art or something like that it's like you. know if I could go back in time there. was like a time one time I was in I was. in Tanzania you know and I was doing. Mount kilamanjaro okay right and we and. afterwards we went someplace and they. had a piece of art in there and it was. like $500 right and I could spend like. maybe $300 but I wish I to spent cuz. going like it it was 15 years ago and.

it's like you know the $200 didn't. wouldn't have changed my life that much. you know it was a lot of money at the. time but it's like I didn't even think. about it two weeks later or two months. later you know so I just wish that I. would have because I really like the. painting you know I was like God I just. and I sometimes I wish like every now. and then there's little things like that. I wish I'd have gotten like a nice piece. of art or something you know yeah and. the uh let's see my side of the uh the. house that's the uh biggest investment. I've made in art uh my wife was an art.

major so she knows the stuff and a lot. of it these days is cheap at auction and. she's good at that she's Gotten Good at. a number of things including uh free. upgrades while flying oh yeah it's a. deal that's her new hobby oh and she's. good at. [Laughter]. it um I'm trying to think of something. else um were there other so so what. Craigslist was kind of the the the. stepchild of the tech industry in a.

weird way was it look that like that. because I could imagine how jealous. because here's people putting billions. and millions of dollars into building. this thing this new Avenue and all these. Venture capitalists and stuff like that. and then they all this advertising and. here you are with this basic kind of. peer-to-peer how can I offer something. that could potentially help my neighbor. or connect two neighbors that could use. something yeah we ' always been an. outlier as one person put it we're one. of the few uh ungentrified sites on the.

net yeah um and I guess we uh like it. that way nothing has not everything has. to be expensive or fancy yeah to give. credit to a site I consider a undent. fied that's a. Wikipedia Wikipedia is where a facts go. to live and in the long run Wikipedia I. think is the most important of all Sites. I work with them and even in New York.

I'm working with their local chapter to. uh give classes uh Wikipedia for. beginners really well when you get to. write an article or change an article. that gives you a lot of power well in a. small way to uh determine how people. think of things you get to write history. oh and some of it's not true like. there's stuff on my Wikipedia like. attaching me to like a part of my f like. um like my they have my f half my family.

members wrong on it and stuff and it. like puts me and it's crazy I'm like all. right the deal unlike newspapers well. they don't correct themselves normally. especially not in a big way but in. Wikipedia you can do that and basically. you uh can get a good uh citation oh. some evidence of what's right and wrong. and then send it to someone who knows. how to it and and they can do it they. can do that oh dang and got get in there.

yeah you guys uh know how to get hold of. me okay and then I I know I can get hold. of someone who can who knows how to do. the edits at least I have not gone to. the class yet okay and uh the yeah the. deal is that the system is imperfect but. it's better than anything anyone else. has tried yeah it's true and things do. get fixed it may not happen as fast as. anyone. wants um but again there's things uh.

let's say in the uh newspaper of record. and things which I know are wrong and. which have been presented to them and. they're just not going to fix it yeah. and that and they don't want to uh I. don't understand the reason they want to. shape history sometimes you think well. the deal is they uh some you know they. were brought something which was wrong. it was proven to be wrong and they uh. they say they weren't going to be uh. truth.

Vigilantes and I guess I uh disagree. yeah yeah that's interesting well that's. a big thing about information now it's. like it's something I worry about with. AI because if. there's and even just the history of the. web like things in the history of the. web because people can alter that over. time uh there's uh big problems with. that now uh a number of AI systems are. Fe. on the output of other AI systems which. could be. hallucinating or it could be if you.

train compromised uh yeah well that's. one way to do that and I like the idea. of uh really good AI replacing or. supplementing. search but I uh um I worry about that. also because even if I just casually. screw around I can uh get the AI systems. produce wrong. information and I talk about it with.

some of the people at these companies. and hope that uh they get a right I do. have a lot of Hope for AI doing customer. service because if it's done with. Commitment if it's done right um it can. be done much better because sometimes. like you call up for a customer service. you get a call center someplace where. they just don't know how to do it they. don't know and I try to be kind to. people who have been effectively.

sabotaged by their management sometimes. I uh become less impatient than I should. be yeah oh yeah yeah oh you'll call a. customer service and they're like we. don't even know what you're talking. about but they still answer the phone. I'm like who are you yeah and we don't. yeah instead of complaining about that. I'm trying to talk about it and I am. putting my money where my mouth is like. for Consumer Reports which I'm involved. with and working with a lot with the.

magazine website yeah okay because. they're trustworthy a and the idea is. that yeah I would enjoy working with an. AI system which would be responsive and. give me good. information uh and even if it can't. maybe it would kick it to a person who. might have to do research but at least. they would be good at it ah understood. yeah I have one I actually have a. question about that but I I want to. remember to ask this how did Craigslist.

make money like oh oddly enough since we. run very lean Jim runs us very lean and. even though we minimally charge that. makes enough because we're. not we're not expected to produce great. results for VCS proventure capitalist. yes so you don't have these you don't. have these money guys like I need my. return right. uh if no one's invested millions in us. we don't have to go public no one's. looking to get uh uh billions M and uh.

I'm uh happy with the uh current results. yeah the future is is scary sometimes. but this works out pretty well you've. also talked a lot about yeah that's your. water yeah thank you um I have just like. one or two more questions um. sure that or I can get it for you. I'm stubborn you're stubborn I am. stubborn what oh my god dude you're.

crazy Craig because I've never heard. somebody imagine I'm trying to open a. water right I can't open. it and then I say I'm. stubborn like I'm. stubborn I I maybe it don't even make. sense to me it was very that was very. funny. well you're like I can't open it and I. was like I don't know if you could open. or not I was just trying to I I don't.

know but I was like oh can I help you. and then you're like I'm stubborn but to. me in my head I was like he can't open. it but he just the bottle stubborn. anyway this didn't make any sense my my. deal is that as an old man I'm happy. when I can still do some things yeah oh. I see what you're saying um you've. talked a lot about independent. journalism right okay and that's. something that like I I've read anyway. is near and dear to um your uh Outlook. in the world okay well what we learned.

in US history in this High School class. is that uh a free and trustworthy press. is just required to keep a republic. alive and the whole media system is. fractured in all sorts of unpredictable. ways you're part of that I'm a lesser. part of it and I don't know what to do. now except that I try to support things. that I know work like the uh the. journalism school at the City University.

of New York okay and Wikipedia is now. modern journalism there are other things. that I try to help but uh uh I'm. confused and I'm kind of paralyzed. around a lot of this so I did a lot in. the past but these days I just trying to. focus in those areas where I can help. Americans defend the country because. that's a welldefined. uh good which we need in a big way right.

now and like uh service members active. or veteran and their families have given. up a lot for us and we don't treat them. right so I can do something about that. uh cyber warfare is a thing and it needs. help because the government can do some. stuff but everyone needs to play a role. like in World War II everyone needs to. uh Harden their systems a little bit. depending on how much of a uh Target you.

are yeah it's funny I didn't realize. until you said some of those things like. what if suddenly all of our uh cars were. compromised or half of them or all of. our ovens were compromised to the point. where they started fires in all of our. homes you know um it was just kind of. fascinating to me you know um well it. means also I've read too much science. fiction in my time but if uh if 1% of. those systems were. compromised that alone is a big problem. yeah and we don't even realize it um.

were there other uh businesses that you. tried to start before or after uh no I. am not a real businessman it's been a. happy accident I'm like uh any success. I've had has been by accidentally being. in the right time at the right place and. that makes me the farest Gump of the. internet but also with the right. attitude to bring one person to another. you know try to keep the golden rule in. your mind things you learn from Sunday. school um what about are your parents.

pretty proud of your parents still alive. Craig uh they passed long ago oh they. did I'm sure they uh would be I uh know. that my high school history teacher uh. learned about his contributions to all. my stuff he uh heard about it uh when. while he was still around and that was. big deal oh that probably meant a lot. huh yeah and well cuz teachers work hard. for little pay oh yeah so anything uh.

anytime they have any long-term effect. is a big. deal yeah yeah it's so funny I like I. still keep in touch with a lot of my. teachers you know it's important to me I. uh should but at my age there may not be. many left well on that's why we got to. get that Ouija board going yes you know. I think that's the next level um what. are some what are some small before you. Craig what are some goals in your life. like right now I know you've talked. about some of the kind of work oriented. and giving back um are there any kind of.

personal goals are there anything like. um I don't know is there any kind of. goals you have even if they're just like. human to yourself things you still want. to learn or do professionally I want uh. cyber security to be a household word. that everyone takes. seriously uh personally uh I'll be glad. if the dentist tomorrow uses night your. sock side yeah and I will make the same. joke over again that is can I take the.

bottle home and he will refuse. me but we like to do that no we do like. to do that um I think that's good guys. pretty good is there anything else that. you want to share that's important to. you uh I think you got it all and I. think people will be tired of hearing. from me after 90 minutes well look I I. do know if you if you if you really want. to get some nitrous oxide you might be. able to find some cig list I I've I've. been advised by my medical team against. it well I can remember well for sure is.

uh like the Batman says I'm not the nerd. you want but I'm the nerd you. got man I don't know how somehow I. almost get your sense of humor now Craig. it's very interesting that uh that might. be tragic yeah well thank you man thank. you for uh I like I just like some I. like your initial goals of like my goal. is to help one person finds something. this person's in need this person might. have this how can I be of service there. um learning when you notice that I'm not.

a good manager of this so I need to get. some help here right it's not a strong. suit of mine maybe this world but the. customer relations is a strong suit of. mine you know and and that's interesting. just because you know sometimes we all. feel like we have to do everything in. different spaces and then um yeah and. I'm glad you found a lady along the way. how long have you how long's your. marriage been now uh married 12 and. together 20 that's great and it's good. that I'm better at remembering those. dates than she is yeah amen um Craig.

numar thank you so much man hey it's my. pleasure I appreciate your. time now I'm just floating on the breeze. and I feel I'm floting like these leaves. I must be. [Music]. Cornerstone oh but when I reach that. ground I'll share this piece of mind I. found I can feel it in my. bones it's.