Consumer Advocate Lindsay Owens | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #693

She's a consumer protection expert known. for her investigations into price. gouging and online price manipulation. She has a new book called Gouged: The. End of a Fair Price and What That Means. for Your Wallet. Um, I learned a lot and. I'm thankful for her time. Today's guest. is Miss Lindsay Owens. Shine. on me. and I will find a song. I've been.

singing. >> Getting scammed is starting to feel like. one of the most American things in the. world. Like that's our apple pie now. It. seems. >> absolutely. >> You know, um Lindsay Owens, the author. of Gouged. >> Yep. Thank you so much for joining us. today. You are a kind of a a consumer. advocate and a watchdog. You had a group. called Groundwork Collaborative, which.

does what exactly? >> We're a think tank in Washington DC. And. a think tank is sort of a silly word. that only people in Washington DC use. But basically, we do research and. investigations, including investigations. of corporate America, to try to. influence policy, to try to help. policymakers. know exactly how to pass laws to stop us. from getting ripped off, to help policy. makers see what's happening to America. on the ground. >> Yeah. Because everything feels like. you're getting ripped off now. It feels. like our country is getting ripped off.

The people are getting ripp It feel even. animals. I've seen animals like, [laughter]. you know, people I it's just like it's. it's become like an infection that we're. just being taken advantage of at every. possible point. Yeah. >> What got you involved in investigating. this? >> Yeah. Well, one thing I say about price. gouging and getting ripped off is it is. absolutely coming for every line item in. the household budget. It's coming for. your rent. It's coming for your. groceries. And I know you were just. joking about animals, but absolutely. like pet food prices are way up. um the.

companies that control the pet food. market um really have us over a barrel. these days. So it really is coming for. our vacation, airline tickets, everything. I started looking into price. gouging basically in 2021 when inflation. started and I wasn't alive during the. last period of high inflation and I was. sort of like hm what is this inflation. and what is it going to mean for us? Like how is it going to change the. economy? How is it going to change our. psychology as consumers? Are we just. going to be anxious that prices are. going to go up forever for the rest of.

our lives? Um, and I started looking at. what companies were saying about. inflation. And that's when things got. pretty interesting because what I. noticed is, you know, their prices are. going up too, right? Like if you make a. product, the input costs, the stuff that. you have to buy to make your stuff, those prices are rising too. So. >> like the fixed cost for companies. >> Exactly. And I thought, okay, if. companies prices are rising, they must. be pretty stressed about inflation. And. what I found when I listened in on what. the companies were telling their.

investors and their shareholders is they. were not worried about inflation at all. >> Like they were going to pass along all. of their rising costs and they were. going to use the fact that we all. expected prices to go up to pass along. even more than their rising costs. >> Wow. Um just so we know like in your. book there's a lot of different. terminology. There's price gouging, dynamic pricing, um algorithmic pricing, surveillance pricing. Let's go through. what is first just so people know what. is price gouging? >> Yeah, price the legal definition of. price gouging is when a company or an.

individual overcharges you during an. emergency. So you've got a hurricane and. you've got the last four gallons of. water, you know, you charge $100 a. gallon, right? That's the legal. definition of price gouching. I also. think most Americans have like a duck. test version of price gouging, right? >> A duck test. >> Yeah. Like it quacks like a duck, it. walks like a duck, it's a duck. Like you. know when you're being ripped off, like. you know when someone's cheating you. Like we intuitively have a sense like. this price doesn't sit right with us. >> Yeah, for sure.

>> And I, you know, I think it's fine to. use the phrase price gouging in those. scenarios as well. >> Yeah. And now even it seems like I don't. know, it feels like everything is in. cahoots these days. Like if a larger. entity owns not only a weather channel, but they also own a chain store and then. they also own um a media outlet, then. they can create a narrative that there's. a storm coming or something. They can. then they can adjust the price like they. can just do it all themselves. That's. it. Even feels like it's gotten that.

dark. Um what is uh dynamic pricing? >> Yeah, so dynamic pricing is when a. company changes prices based on market. conditions. So, let's say there's a lot. of demand for a World Cup ticket or a. concert ticket. Um, you know, the. company will increase the price because. they know there are a lot of different. people looking at that same ticket and. they think they can charge it to you. >> Like, like is that a something you see. with Ticket Master? Is that. >> Yeah, Ticket Master started using. dynamic pricing in 2011, which was the. same year that Uber started using.

dynamic pricing. >> Like when I was a kid, you stood in line. for concert tickets, right? And like if. there were two tickets left, like the. last two people in line got the tickets. at face value. They didn't like stop and. say, "Okay, there's 60 people left in. line. Who's like, we're going to sell. this to last two tickets to the highest. bidder." Right. Right. Like that didn't. happen. You just got the last two. tickets at face value and now they. almost always auction them off. Right. >> Is that necessarily unfair? It's their. Is it their tickets or it's the artist.

tickets? >> Yeah. Look, um, you know, you can decide. if you think it is fair to auction. tickets off to the highest bidder, right? It's a decision that you can make. if you're using dynamic pricing. >> And there are a lot of economists who. will tell you that auctioning off. tickets is the most efficient way to. allocate scarce resources because the. person who's willing to pay the most. probably wants the ticket the most and. they should get the ticket, right? Um, but I think most Americans disagree and. they think that everyone should have an.

equal shot at a ticket, right? They like. a first come first- serve model or a. line. They like a lottery model. Sometimes, you know, you put your name. in a hat and then the first 100 people. get plucked out. That's another way to. allocate a scarce resource that feels. more fair to a lot of us. But these. days, you know, more often than not, almost always you're going to see. dynamic pricing and you're going to see, you know, what is effectively an. auction. But I I think for me the really. crazy part is now companies are using.

dynamic pricing in all sorts of areas. where there isn't scarcity, right? They're just like changing prices in the. grocery store. >> Like what do you mean by that? >> Well, Walmart is installing electronic. shelf labels in their um stores and by. the end of 2026, every Walmart in the. country will have electronic shelf. labels instead of paper stickers. >> Are you serious? >> Yeah. So, it means so they're not going. to have just the price on there anymore. What is an electronic shelf label? >> It's a digital display. >> Okay. >> Um,

>> digital shelf labels, a modern tool for. everyday low pricing. >> Oh, wow. Low pricing. [laughter]. >> A modern upgrade to a longstanding. promise. Digital shelf labels. And this. is on the Walmart website. >> Yeah, this is a little This is the. Walmart take on their electronic shelf. labels. Digital shelf labels are simply. electronic price displays that replace. paper tags on the shelf edge, similar to. the digital displays customers have seen. for years at gas stations. Yeah. Uh. prices are still set the same way they. always have been. Centrally by Walmart, following our everyday low price. strategy with an associate reviewing.

approved changes. Yeah. >> Um what what problem do you see with uh. these um DS with the with the. >> digital shelf labels? >> Yeah. DSLs. Yeah. Yeah, look um in my. view, electronic shelf labels are the. digital infrastructure to price. everything in the economy dynamically. M. >> um so here is the concern and you know. Walmart has been pretty clear that. they're not planning to do this but the. concern is you know it's hot outside let. me increase the price of ice cream and I.

can use an algorithm at headquarters. that checks weather patterns around the. country and matches weather patterns at. specific retail locations and hikes the. price or there's a winter storm in an. area let me hike the price of soup let. me hike the price of hand warmers things. like that. >> have we seen evidence of that yet? Like. is there any proof that Walmart has done. that already? >> Yeah. So, it's really hard to know. exactly what Walmart is doing and. they've they've denied using the shelf. labels for dynamic pricing, but also not.

all the stores have the dynamic pricing. or the shelf labels yet, right? And so, at the end of the year, the technology. will be there to do something really. different with pricing in the future. >> Got it. Look, we've also looked into. Walmart's patents, um, the types of. technologies that they're building in. Walmart's headquarters and taking the. trouble to try to get the rights to, which is what a patent is. >> Okay. >> And what we've found is that they are. filing patents for things like scan and. go technology where you can scan items.

on your phone that connect to electronic. shelf labels and change pricing. >> Like, give me an example of what that. even looks like. So, I could scan an. item on my phone. >> Yeah. Uh, so Scan and Go technology is. like a way to kind of not have to go to. the checkout line. Okay. >> Right. So you can actually just like. scan the items on your phone as you're. in the store and then just stick them in. your cart, right? And then you can take. your phone to the checkout and and. basically finish the transaction. >> Okay, got it. >> Um, but the patent that Walmart filed, the example that they themselves gave.

was certain items once you put them in. your cart, they expect you to buy. complimentary items and they'll change. the prices of those items. I see. So you. buy this, you also have to buy this. >> Well, the example they gave is if you. buy tuna, they'll change the price for. mayonnaise. >> Oh, I see what you're saying. And. they've admitted to that. >> Well, they they have patented a. technology to do that. >> I see what you're saying. >> So, it's in writing with the US patent. and trademark office. They have said um. that they're going to they're not going.

to renew the patent when it expires, but. it doesn't expire until 2039. M. >> So, >> and by then, yeah, we'll all be full of. like some pricey tuna salad. >> Yeah, that's right. It's going to be. expensive. Lunch is going to get more. and more expensive. Yeah. >> Oh, god. And back to like uh Ticket. Master, where are you seeing um like. like I know that Ticket Master is owned. by Live Nation. Is that right? >> Yeah. >> And Live Nation also owns a lot of. venues. Does that allow for um more. manipulation within that space or what.

is because you see a lot of um. >> bring something up about that. Trevan, do you have any um there's always. articles about that. Was that Oh yeah. Ticket Master and Live. Nation had monopoly over big concert. venues. A jury finds a jury. When was. this? This is April of this year. A jury. has found that concert giant Live Nation. and its ticket master subsidiary had a. harmful monopoly over big concert. venues, dealing the company a loss in a. lawsuit over claims brought by dozens of. US states. Uh, a Manhattan federal jury.

deliberated for 4 days before reaching. its decision Wednesday in the closely. watched case, which gave fans the. equivalent of a backstage pass to a. business that dominates live. entertainment in the US and beyond. Um, what is it saying that they found? The civil case initially led by the US. federal government accused Live Nation. of using its reach to smother. competition by blocking venues from. using multiple ticket sellers. For. example, >> they want to be the only seller in town, right? And they want to make sure that.

you don't have competition, right? You. can't get tickets from multiple venues. or you can't get tickets from multiple. different ticket purveyors for the same. show. So, they're thinking if they own. the venue and they own the ticketing. company, then they'll just put the. tickets right for sale on their own. ticketing site, which allows them. probably to have more. possibility to manipulate pricing if. they want to. >> Absolutely. Look, the it is very hard to. gouge you or to overcharge you if you. can walk across the street and get a.

better deal, >> right? And so competition and having. more options in the economy is going to. be a great way to keep prices more. competitive. >> because you know comparison shopping is. how this works, right? Let's say you go. to venue A and you're like, "Huh, like. the price seems a little high. If you. can go across the street to venue B and. get a better price, you'll you'll go to. venue B, right?" And then venue A says, "hm, like everyone's over in line at. venue B today. I wonder what's going on. Oh, maybe my prices are a little high. and he has to lower his prices. Got it.

But when you have no competition in the. economy or little competition in the. economy, you're totally captive. You're. over a barrel and you're subject to. whatever pricing strategies, whatever. pricing setup, like the take rate for. the artists is influenced by this too, right? Um, you're subject to whatever. ticket master decides. You're really at. their whim. >> And in this specific uh instance, what. did they what did they find? And then. what can we do from here? Let me see. On. April 15th, 2026, after four days of.

deliberation, the Manhattan jury found. that Live Nation and Ticket Master had. illegally maintained Monopoly power. As. of October 19th, the case still hasn't. reached a final resolution. The. coalition of states that one has asked. the judge to order Live Nation to sell. off ticket master. That's a requested. remedy, not an order already issued. >> I mean, this would be the best outcome, right? if Live Nation and Ticket Master. had to split back up and so it wasn't. one giant monopoly where they had. control of the venues, control of ticket. sales all wrapped up in one and instead.

Live Nation and Ticket Master had to. compete with each other and were. separate entities. >> Well, it seems like um it seems like. that's what the people want, right? Like. people have been angry at Ticket Master. for years. I know that Pearl Jam had. like that was a thing years ago where it. was like we're not selling our tickets. on there. >> Yeah, Pearl Jam. I I know Zack Brian was. doing a thing where he was having people. enter um enter like a put their email in. and enter a lottery on one of his tours. Yeah. Um yeah, Grunge Rock Titans Pearl. Jam battle with the business in the. 1990s even filing an anti- monopoly.

complaint with the US Department of. Justice. >> which declined to bring a case then. >> Um but how do like whose fault is this. at this point? It's obvious what the. people want. Yeah. >> Um, how would something actually change. in this case? >> Yeah. Look, in this case, the Department. of Justice would need to step in and use. the authority they have to break up. monopolies, right, and to separate these. two entities. And that's really what. people are looking for. That's what. these cases are about. And.

unfortunately, um, for decades now, the federal. government has basically been Wall. Street's playground, >> right? and corporate America um runs. roughshot over everything that would. help you and I in Washington and you. know I worked on the Hill for years and. I saw it firsthand right you'd be making. some progress on some policy that would. protect Americans pocketbooks right. let's say we wanted to stop the price. gouging or stop the surveillance pricing. >> and you know it takes a while for a law.

to wind its way through Congress and. during that time. >> like armies of lawyers and lobbyists on. behalf of corporate America will descend. on the capital like vultures. um and they will start getting to work. and they have a whole host of methods. One thing they do is they try to delay. it because obviously the more time they. have to kill it or weaken it the better, right? So they'll, you know, say, "Oh,

like this is a really interesting bill, but it's not quite ready yet. we need to. take a closer look at it, you know, or. they'll say, "Oh, you don't quite. understand this policy very well. Like, let our lawyers have a minute to take a. look and and see what they can find and. we'll, you know, we'll help you make it. better, right?" Or they'll just like. load it up with loopholes so it's. basically Swiss cheese by the end of the. process. Or they'll insert some. seemingly innocuous little bit of. language that actually like completely. eradicates and like makes the policy.

useless, right? Um, you know, they'll. take people like me to lunch or like buy. us drinks, right? >> Or massages. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Or something. >> Yeah. Not I've never gotten a massage, but like even like when I announced that. my book was coming out, my phone started. like blowing up with lobbyists in town. that I hadn't talked to in decades. >> Um, being sniffing around, huh? >> Yeah. Just like, "Hey, Lindsay, like. congrats on the book. What a big. accomplishment. Like, I'd love to take. you for a drink." And then I would.

Google them and I would find that they. were working as a lobbyist for Walmart. or working as a lobbyist for Door Dash. or Instacart or any of the companies in. my book. It's just it's just this. incredibly insidious way in which um the. deck is really stacked against us and in. favor of corporate America. And I I just. don't think it is going to change until. we really um you know stand up to the. fact that corporate America runs. Washington. What are the ways that we would stand up. to that? Like what does an actual.

standing up to that look like? I feel. like people want to. >> Yeah. >> It doesn't seem like it matters who you. vote for it. Nothing seems to matter. what people want anymore. What are what. can we actually do, do you think? Or. what does a solution hopefully look like. over time? >> Yeah, I mean, I think there are a. handful of things we should do. Um, the. first thing that I would like to see is. I'd like to see Congress actually use. their investigative powers to crack down. on corporate America,

>> right? >> And that's the Department of Justice to. do that. >> Well, like Congress, so, you know, they. can hold hearings and they can call in. CEOs. They have subpoena power. like. they can call in the CEOs of Walmart and. Door Dash and Instacart and all these. companies that you know we have found to. be um you know running experiments on us. to get better at overcharging us and. they can use their subpoena power to ask. these companies like I want to know more. about how you set prices. >> I want to know more about what these. electronic shelf labels mean. I want to.

know more about what your new. partnership with this pricing AI company. means. And I think if Congress spent. more time doing that, I think, you know, sunlight is a good disinfectant for one. >> Also, I think it would inform the types. of laws that they could pass to crack. down on these practices. >> Do you think that Congress is just they. don't care? They're not interested. They're too in the pockets of lobbyists. or that they're just too behind in the. even the understanding of stuff. >> I think it's a little bit of both. I. mean, absolutely the lobbyists are.

pushing hard to make sure that they're. the CEOs that they represent aren't in. the hot seat, right? That's a big part. of the job is making sure that they. don't get called before Congress. Um, it's definitely the case that like the. gerontocracy is real and a lot of. >> gertocracy. >> like. >> what does it mean. >> old people running the country, >> right? Like senators are too old, right? They don't understand AI technology, for. example. like they don't understand the. ways in which new technologies are. ripping us off. >> They understand pedophilia though, which. [laughter] is crazy. So that seems like.

a crazy practice. Um, a gerontocracy is. a form of government society and. organization in which power is held by. leaders who are significantly older than. the majority of the population. Yeah. >> Like I don't know what the average age. in the Senate is now, but like you know. >> the overunder is Mitch McConnell and. it's not going [laughter] well. That. dude is half a nap away from a coffin. I. mean, I remember once I was in a. hearing, like I was staffing the hearing. and you know, we're in the hearing room. and the hearing was over so it was time.

to leave the hearing room and I was. like, "Why can I not get out the door?". And it was because one of the members. like his feet were not moving. Like he. was standing up but he couldn't yet. start [laughter] walking and so we were. all just like pretending it wasn't. happening and just like standing there, you know, minding our own business. But, you know, it feel it feels like a. nursing home in there, honestly. um you know they're forgetting things, they're asking their staff to print out. things to write. I mean it is really. time for I think a change. But you know.

to answer your question like. >> you know for one like members of. Congress should not be trading stocks. >> because you know it's a conflict of. interest right? If you're regulating an. industry you're getting all of this. insider information. >> and then at night you're like oh telling. your wife oh hey you know buy Palunteer. or whatever. >> go do this for me. Yeah. like, you know, there is no need for our politicians to. be wondering, oh, if I actually do. something good for the American people, I might risk not getting reelected.

Like, those two things should be. aligned. Like, if you do good things, you should get reelected, right? If you. make my life easier, if you make my life. more affordable, like I should want to. reelect you. And when politicians are. taking money from the very company that. is literally like reaching its hand into. my wallet, then their interests are at. odds, right? >> Yeah. I'll say that life adds up fast. A trip. here, a dinner there. Maybe you see a.

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shopify.com/theo.". That's shopify.com/theo. >> I heard you say a little bit ago about. experiments that they were running on. consumers. What are some of those? And. do you talk about those in your book? Yeah. So, the the craziest experiment. that I talk about in the book is an. experiment that my organization ran with. Consumer Reports and More Perfect Union. in December of last year. >> Okay. >> Um, and we ran an experiment on. Instacart that exposed that Instacart.

was running experiments on millions of. Americans while they shopped for their. groceries. >> Wow. >> So, we recruited 400 secret shoppers. Mhm. >> I mean, when I I used to work retail and. like, you know, you were always in fear. of the secret shopper, right? >> Oh, yeah, dude. We had some drunk guys. that were always like buying turtlenecks. or whatever at our pizza play and I. don't know what it was. Anyway, that. doesn't mean anything. Um, but yeah. Uh, >> so we Yeah. So, we like hired these. secret like we got these volunteer.

secret shoppers. >> and we said, "All right, like fire up. the Instacart app, >> set your pickup location, like you know, a Kroger in Nashville, Tennessee, for. example. >> Um, buy these 23 grocery items. Like, get. >> the same items.". >> Yeah, exact same items. Like, get a. dozen Lucern eggs. Get a 16 box of. Frosty Flakes, right? Like the store. brand Frosted Flakes, right? It was. normal stuff like breakfast, lunch, dinner, deli meat, apples, >> Cheezits. I think we did like Tostitos. >> Yeah, [laughter] those are good.

>> Um like the normal stuff that you would. buy or maybe it was Ruffles. Okay. >> Okay. So, it's 23 items. We said put it. in your cart. >> and then just take a picture like take a. picture of of your. >> of the cart. >> of a cart so that we know like what your. cart total was and how much you were. going to get charged for every item in. your cart. And then we took all those. screenshots and we had the team enter. them into a spreadsheet and we just. crunched the numbers. And what we found. is that for 75% of the items in the. cart, Instacart was charging different. people different prices at the exact.

same time. Wow. >> For the exact same item. >> How were they basing the pricing on? Was. it Was it just on where you lived? >> Well, by the way, the price differences. as much as 23%. >> Wow. >> So, this wasn't like a nickel or a. penny. Like, you could be charged 23%. more for a dozen eggs than me, >> which could be like a buck 50 for a. dozen eggs, which is just insane. Eggs. are already so expensive right now. >> Well, it's just not fair. It's like what. is the price of it, >> right? Like it used to be that if you. and I went to the grocery store together. and we stood in line and we both bought. a gallon of milk, we would get charged.

the same amount, >> right? >> And if we didn't like you and I would. look at each other and we'd like pull. out our receipts and we'd be like one of. us, you made a mistake. Like one of us. got charged the wrong amount, >> right? >> And now it's like no, that's not a. mistake. Like that's the whole ball. game. >> And what was it based on? It was based. on your location. >> So we held all of that constant. So same. location, same store. What we learned is. that Instacart, they basically admitted. this in their response to us when we. released the investigation. They were just running experiments to.

see how much they could charge us for. every item in the cart. And so they were. just testing the outer bounds of like, you know, how much they could get away. with charging for eggs, how much for. milk, like you know, if you were making. a sandwich, they were trying to test how. much they could get you to fork over for. every single item in the sandwich. like. the deli meat, the mustard, the lettuce, the tomato, the the bread, right? Um and. and actually like they admitted it. They. said, "Oh yeah, this is just like our. our typical AB testing that we do to. like make life more affordable for.

Americans who are shopping on. Instacart.". >> But they were letting people pay the. higher prices. They weren't just having. it be, "Wow, that's not. >> Yeah, of course. Like they were. definitely charging the prices in the. experiment.". >> And were they getting people's consent. to do that? Do they have to have. people's consent? No, you definitely. didn't consent to this. And in fact, part of the reason that we knew that. Instacart was doing this. Like, we. designed our experiment expecting to be. able to expose their experiment is. because they had purchased an AI company. called Eversight.

>> And Eversight's entire reason for. existence was that they built software. to help companies run experiments on you. without your knowledge. Like that's the. whole ball game. Eversight is an AI powered pricing and. trade promotion optimization company. Eversight was acquired by Instacart in. September 2022 to enhance its grocery. pricing and trade promotion technology. Um, Instacart faced regulatory scrutiny. and public backlash regarding dynamic. and inconsistent ad pricing test through. Eversight,

>> leading Instacart to wind down in the. Eversight AI pricing tool. Wow. Did you. guys' findings help lead to that? And. >> wow, congrats. >> Yeah, thanks. Yeah, two weeks after the. study was released, um they folded and. like right before Christmas, like. December 22nd, they put up a little blog. post that was like, you know, maybe we. got this one wrong. Like from now on, like two people who are shopping at the. same store at the same time will pay the. same price. >> Wow. >> Yeah. But look, this is like whack-a-ole. because there are so many other. companies that are doing the exact same.

thing that Instacart is doing. Like we. just did a couple of weeks ago um an. experiment with the Today Show where we. had everyone buy um Harry Styles tickets. at Madison Square Garden. >> on StubHub. >> Okay. >> And the underlying ticket price was. identical. Like you know we all bought. the same seat, right? Like row M seat 4. or whatever. And the underlying ticket. price was the same, right? Like the. resellers were not playing games with. prices. Like they had a fixed price. >> Okay. But StubHub was experimenting on.

how much they could charge in fees to. different concert goers and some of the. fee differences in this experiment were. $60 difference. So like you could be. charged $60 more for the like delivery. fee, whatever that is, like they send. you the QR code. I don't know what like. they're delivering, but like you could. be charged $60 more than me. That's. gross. >> For the delivery fee. >> Um we have seen this when we have run. experiments on Uber Eats and Door Dash. where we like sit in the conference. room. I mean, this is like what you do. at a think tank. You like, you know, do. research. So, we like order lunch,

right? And we're like, what's going on. with Uber Eats? And we'll all order the. same item from McDonald's, for example. >> And what you'll see is that Uber Eats. and Door Dash are running experiments on. those delivery fees and service fees and. things like that, charging some of us. more than others for the like to deliver. the exact same product to the exact same. location. >> How are they determining that it's more. to you or that you will pay more? like. how how do they determine that I'll pay. more for a U McFish or whatever. >> than somebody else would pay? >> Well, this is a great question. So, um.

>> over the summer I testified um for Josh. Holly in Congress. He helped. >> Haw Ly. >> Yeah. >> He's one of the guys I see investigating. this type of stuff the most. Senator, he's a senator. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he really has. no fear when it comes to holding. corporations to account. And during the. hearing, we talked about um a patent. that Door Dash had filed for what they. called their agitation index. >> Okay? >> And the agitation index was made up of.

16 different factors, but it included. how quickly you scroll in the Door Dash. app. Um how jerkily you scroll in the. Door Dash app, which I imagine was like, I don't know, like your blood sugar or. something. You're really hungry or. hangry and you're just like, you know, >> oh, if you're just like, "Go, I need a. damn McMuffin." like [laughter] right. now. >> Yeah. >> Um, by the way, your phone battery was. one of the variables because I guess if. your phone battery is about to die, like. you've got to get the order in, right? [laughter]. >> Oh, really? Yeah. Like even if they know. your screen, like your brightness is set. really low, like [laughter] this guy has.

40 seconds to get a 10 piece McNugget, >> right? So, like they'll probably pay $40. for it, >> right? So, price up up. So, all of this. went into their agitation index and they. filed a patent that was going to allow. them to connect the agitation index to. um the types of promotions that. different um users got, right? So, whether or not you'd get a discount or. something. >> detecting user agitation application. interaction and this is on uh patents.

Uh just um. >> well, so interestingly, >> Spanish justice I guess. >> we [laughter]. >> What does it mean? Maybe it's Latin. I. don't know. >> Yeah. A method includes retrieving by. the user device from a database on the. user device historical data and. real-time client device data. The method. includes determining an agitation score. based on the real-time client device. data and the historical data and then. performing an action based on the. agitation score. So that is what the. patent is for. >> Yep. >> Wow. Interestingly, I will say um you.

know when when you know Josh Holly and I. talked about this in in Congress and you. know it's like on the record um a couple. days later Door Dash quietly withdrew. the patent. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So all some of this stuff it's just it's. just shining a light on. >> Absolutely right. >> Absolutely. Like in the book I tell this. crazy story. In the 1990s the CEO of. Coke was down in Brazil. Like probably. thought no one was paying attention. It's like the '9s in Brazil. >> Yeah.

>> And he gives an interview to a Brazilian. magazine. >> and he announces in that interview or. kind of, you know, brags about the fact. that they are piloting and stalling. thermometers in Coke vending machines so. that they can charge you more for Coke. on a hot day. >> Really? >> Yeah. And even in the 90s, like before. stuff went viral on TikTok, like, and I. don't know if this was in Portuguese or. whatever, it was in Brazil, like this. went crazy viral. Is that a true story? >> Yeah. Doug Ave uh.

>> Doug Ivester uh casually revealed that. Coca-Cola was developing and testing a. new vending machine concept equipped. with internal thermometers and. temperature sensors. Uh because. consumers desire for cold drinks. increases in hot weather. So it is fair. that it should be more expensive. The. machine will simply make this process. automatic. Wow. So they were thinking. about this early on. Customers were. furious, widely viewing the idea as. predatory corporate price gouging and. exploitation. Rival Pepsi Cola seized. the opportunity to publicly criticize.

Coke, calling the strategy a scheme to. exploit vulnerable consumers rather than. benefit them. >> Yeah. >> Following the swift global outcry, Coca-Cola quickly backtracked, claiming. the concept was merely hypothetical and. there were no concrete plans to deploy. it widely. >> Yeah. So he like pretended that it was. just like a joke like he wasn't actually. planning to pilot these thermometers. >> Bring up a picture of that sick bastard. who was thinking about doing that. Doug. Ivester. Let me just get a gander at this sick.

[laughter]. >> Of course. >> guy. I bet if you put a thermometer in his. ass, [laughter]. it would read that he's a real greedy. little soda baby. That's what I would. say. Anyway, that's a little bit much. But. >> well, you know, this happened with. Wendy's, too. >> Oh, yeah. >> Do you remember that? >> Yeah, dude. I freaking used to like. Wendy's so much. >> My mom would take me there sometimes. >> I know. You got to love a Frosty French. fries with dipped in the Frosty. >> But dude, the Frosty's changed or the. fries changed. It's different now. >> What's the What's the difference?

They're worse. >> I think they're worse or I'm getting. better. Um, no. I don't have any I have. any idea. Wendy's launched its hot and. crispy fries nationwide in midepptember. 2021, marking only the second time the. chain changed its core French fry recipe. since 1969. Huh. >> It was maybe during the pandemic. >> That's true. The cut features a unique. geometry with a thicker side. Dang. Shy. got that thickness on her for heat. retention and a softer interior plus a. narrower edge for extra crunch.

>> Dude, I just want to fry. >> Yeah. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? What the heck? God made it how it's. supposed to be. [laughter] Just heat it. up and pass it over the counter. >> Pour the salt on it and get it in the. box. >> Yeah, you guys are over there. Whatever. you guys are doing, torturing it. It. sounds like. >> So, there's this um concept called. shrinkflation, which is when the company. charges you the same amount or even more. for an item that shrinks, right? Like. they start putting fewer potato chips in. the bag, for example.

>> And there's a similar concept called. skimpflation. And that's when companies. charge you the same amount or even more. for like a worse product, like a. shittier product. >> Oh yeah. They've had a I used to buy. these stance socks and they were the. best socks in the whole world and then a. few years later they were not as good. >> So I'm not saying they did anything but. my feet feels like they did. >> Yeah. And like salad dressing companies. will like start using less and less oil. and like sub it for water, right? Because it's cheaper. Or like ice cream. You have to be careful with ice cream.

now because sometimes you're not even. buying ice cream. You're buying like a. frozen novelty treat because they've. swapped out all the dairy for like. coconut solids and things like that. >> and it's only just to save money. >> Absolutely. God. >> Yeah. Cutting back on product quality. And the thing that's frustrating is like. they don't tell you, right? Like they. don't tell you they're changing the. recipe or they don't tell you that. they've swapped these ingredients out. >> Yeah. Well, it's crazy, too. It's like. we used to put the water in at home. because we were poor. Like we'd put the. water in and now you're putting the. water in on your side cuz you're rich.

Right. >> Like it's just like, dude, that was our. trick. At least let us do it. >> Right. Extenders, right? Like you're. making your meat go further by like. mixing it with milk or like making your. salad dressing go further by, you know, it's almost gone. You like stick some. water in there, shake it. >> Put some water in there. Put a little. bit of milk in there. >> Um or to shake it enough that there's. more in there suddenly. >> Totally. >> That was our thing. If you shook. something just enough, that a little bit. more would be in there. >> Yeah. Like one more squeeze. >> Yeah. It's just like and also what. people don't even realize is just the. stress of all this Lindsay. The stress.

of like walking down an aisle and just. feeling like dude I walk into a place. now and I just feel like I'm getting. [ __ ] and I just want to go sit in my. car. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. Think people just want. things to be somewhat fair. I think um I. interrupted you though a few minutes. ago. You were talking about Wendy's. >> Yeah. By the way, I think this is all. about fairness at its core. Like this. isn't about economics. This isn't about. technology. This isn't about public. policy. This is about the fact that. pricing in this country is unfair now. >> Yeah. >> Like the price tag enabled fairness,

right? Like it enabled predictability. Like if you're on a budget, you need to. know how much groceries cost week to. week. >> And if prices are changing minute by. minute in the grocery store, that makes. budgeting impossible. >> That's a great point. >> And the lack of predictability in. pricing now is making life hard for a. lot of us. Um I think the other thing. that pricing allowed, stable pricing. allowed for is comparison shopping, right? If you're on a budget, you needed. to look at a couple of different stores. to find the best deal, >> right? >> And if prices are changing minute by.

minute, by the time you get across the. street to store B, the price in store A. has changed again. >> Um, so it does feel unfair. And by the. way, the whole reason we have the price. tag is because the Quakers felt like. haggling was unfair. >> So that was like a historical thing. Well, it says in the Bible, too, isn't. there about um what does it say that God. threw out the money changers or. something or what does it say about. that, Trevan? You know what I'm talking. about? >> The temple in Jerus Jerusalem. >> Yeah. That Jesus Christ drove the money.

changers out of the temple in Jerusalem. And what did the the the Quakers what. did they say? >> Well, you know, haggling they felt like. was unfair because when you haggled, different people paid different amounts. for the same item. And they felt like. all men were created equal under God and. everyone should be paying the same. amount at the checkout line was. basically their thesis. And so in the. late 1800s they did away with haggling. at their markets and charged fixed. prices. >> So everyone paid the same amount and you. knew how much you were going to pay. You.

had some predictability. And then John. Waker, who was a Philadelphia department. store owner who built one of the first. American department stores, he was like, I'm going to put a price tag in my in my. store. And he did. and he was the first. person to do it and we've had it for 150. years and so. >> so that you knew what it was right so. let me read that John Waker was an. American merchant and religious civic. and political figure he was born in. Grace section of South Philadelphia um. let me see what did he do in 1861 WMaker.

opened his first store in partnership. with his brother-in-law Nathan. uh sorry I said it like that I don't. know him [laughter] but I've had a. brother-in-law and it could be risky. Uh. Nathan Brown, the store called Oak Hall. was located at six and market streets in. Philly. Uh Oak Hall grew substantially. based on Wakaker's then revolutionary. principle, one price and goods. returnable. >> Yeah. So there was a fixed price and. also he allowed you to return stuff that. you didn't like, which was a big concept.

at the time. >> Wow. And what changed that concept over. time? I mean, look, I think pricing has. gone high-tech and companies have. figured out how to reinvent the ripoff. It's not like a new thing like ripping. you off. It's been around for a long. time, but they're just using. technologies to get better at it. >> Yeah. Well, well, that's one of the. reasons why I like now just to go to. there's a farmers market that's on the. corner. It's not even a farmers market. It's just like um it's an Amish produce. stand. Yeah. >> And they're open all the time pretty. much. and uh I'll just stop by there and.

I just get like the six or seven things. and the price is always the same. So. maybe stores like that, maybe there will. be opportunity for new uh just more. localized. stores. Do you think like how do we. combat that? Because usually there's a. way like if if somebody wants to do so. much greed, there's another way it seems. like. >> to be hopeful and and um and for a new. opportunity to come along. >> Absolutely. I think the way that we get.

out of this is consumers get frustrated. enough that some companies feel like. they can cut a different path and. actually gain a competitive advantage by. being the kind of company that doesn't. rip you off. Amen. >> By being the kind of company that uses. fixed prices. And I know Aldi, for. example, is like running commercials. basically saying like, "We're not going. to use electronic shelf labels. We're. not going to rip you off." And I've got. to think that's in direct response to. the fact that so many Americans are. pissed off at what's going on with.

Walmart, right? >> Oh, I like hearing that. Aldi, they have. them in the Midwest. >> Yeah, >> they might have them more places, do. they? >> Yeah, they're in DC now, which is where. I am. So, I know they're getting they're. getting around the DMV, the Maryland, Virginia, DC area. >> Yeah. I used to hear my grandma always. saying we're going to Aldi's or. whatever. I don't even know if she went. She would just go smoke or whatever in. the yard. But um but she said she went. But um anyway, >> so in the book I have an example of the. Savannah Bananas, which is like a. baseball team that's also kind of like a. It's like Magic Mike baseball, right?

>> Yeah, it's getting a little crazy. You're starting to see a little more. banana on some of these guys, too. Look. at the guy on the stilts, huh? That. guy's got a little wiener on him in the. middle. [laughter]. I mean, what is that? Anyway, this guy's. trying to stay away from these chicks, it seems like. [laughter]. >> Is he sign is he signing autographs? >> Yeah, I think he is. Um, but no, and. that also might be a woman. >> in [laughter] my in my. >> dude. Yeah, you don't even know what's. going on anymore. It's like they're it's. like it's just dynamic crotching. It.

feels like out there. It's like you you. think you got one thing and you got. something else. But anyway, what were. you saying about the Savannah bananas? Um, >> well, they you know, like they're really. popular. >> Oh, people love them. They sold out the. Superdome in Louisiana, which um the. Saints have even had trouble doing this. season. >> Exactly. Like they they make real money, right? And there's real demand for the. tickets. They don't use dynamic pricing. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Let's go. >> Yeah. >> How were they able to not do that? >> Well, they do a few things, but like the.

the posted price is the price, but they. have a lottery system. So, if you want. to get tickets and there are more people. who want tickets than there are spots, um you know, you sign up and then people. are basically randomly assigned to get. tickets. So it means that some people. don't get tickets, but what it does mean. is the tickets don't go to the highest. bidder. So it's not a stadium filled. with the richest people, which is what. happened with the World Cup, right? Like. the tickets all went to the highest. bidder and then you had all the like. venture capitalists who had seats in New. York for the World Cup games and then. you had some of the most passionate fans.

who were watching it down the street at. a sports bar or like on the couch. Right. >> Right. Yeah. How were they doing that. for the World Cup? Do you know? >> Yeah. So for the first time in World Cup. history, FIFA used dynamic pricing at. the American World Cup. >> At the bequest of whom? What made that. happen? Do you know? >> FIFA made the decision themselves. They. felt like this is the US, the Americas. People have got money here. We're going. to like go for broke and try to. basically bring in more revenue than we. usually do at other World Cups.

>> It says uh by hosting across the United. States, FIFA operated in a loose. regulatory framework that permitted. real-time algorithmic price. fluctuations. Unlike previous host. countries with strict consumer. protection laws, ah FIFA integrated its. own official resale marketplace where it. takes a 15% fee from the buyer and a 15%. fee from the seller on secondary. transactions. Wow. >> Yeah. I mean they did very very well. But I think that it's a really good. point the the US market because what. they were really doing is saying look.

the US market is a sellers market. Right. Right. Look at Ticket Master, look at StubHub. Like the Americans are. used to getting bulked for tickets. They're used to overpaying. They're used. to dynamic pricing. >> Right. The US will allow totally the. consumers who can't afford as much, it. will allow them uh to be taken advantage. of. Also, >> yeah, the US is fine letting poor. Americans watch from sports bars. That's. what I mean. >> Like, we're fine filling our stadiums. with the wealthiest Americans. That's. how the whole country works. That's how.

the NFL works. That's how the NBA works, right? Um, I, you know, it it was. basically FIFA saying, "We're going to. give the American people what they're. used to, and we're going to make ticket. master level money or StubHub level. money rather than regular kind of. nonprofit FIFA money.". FIFA pulled in a record-breaking ticket. sales totaling approximately three. billion for the 2026 World Cup. An. increase of roughly 216% compared to the. 1 billion generated from the ticket. sales during the previous 2022 World Cup.

cycling Qatar Qur. [snorts] Wow. But. then there's also the argument to be. said that that's always how things have. been throughout time, right? That the. rich people get to do all the stuff. >> Yeah. But like it wasn't that way for. FIFA at the last World Cup, right, in. the US, right? Um, and look, in all of. these instances, you're making a choice, right? The company is making a choice. Are you prioritizing revenues and. profits? I mean, FIFA doesn't really.

turn a profit. It's a nonprofit, but. like most companies are for-profit. >> Is profit your focus, or are you. prioritizing something else like. accessibility, right? making sure that. you that everyone who wants to see, you. know, the most passionate fans, the most. loyal fans, working-class fans have a. chance to sit in the stadium once in. their life. I mean, these, you know, the. World Cup doesn't come to the US. frequently, right? It's once in a. generation. You know, you have one shot. at it maybe your entire life. And,

>> you know, they could have prioritized. making sure everyone had a shot. Um, and. instead they prioritized revenue. Um, and companies can prioritize fair prices. instead of bilking us. >> Yeah. >> Or a reasonable profit. Like we're not, you know, no one thinks that these. companies are in this for their health, right? Like we're not asking companies. to sell, >> you know, a hamburger at a loss. Like. nobody's nobody wants that. Nobody's. advocating for that. But they're making. decisions about how to charge you the.

absolute maximum they think you will pay. for a hamburger instead of a reasonable. price for a hamburger. >> And possibly a price that somebody else. isn't even having to pay. >> Exactly. >> Right. Like a price that changes as. you're walking up. Exactly. >> Based on even your attitude or your. mood. Like what if you're walking up, you're smiling. They might jack they. might jack it up seven cents. You know. what I'm saying? You got a smile tariff. on you or whatever. >> Okay. So this is real. Um, we have done. a deep dive into Walmart's patents and. there are dozens of patents um, over the.

last decade that Walmart has filed for. cataloging all sorts of information. about how you look. Um, biometric. information, um, heart rate, they've. patents for that, glucose levels, they. have patents for retinal scanning, things like that. Um they updated their. privacy re policy recently and it. included biometric data. Like you're. signing away the fact that they collect. biometric data. >> What do you mean? Like even when you. pull onto their premises or if you pull. like like how are they absorbing this.

biometric data? >> Yeah. So this privacy policy was for. online shopping. So this was mostly for. online shopping, but. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Okay. So here are a couple of the. weirdest ones. >> Um and we named them. So Walmart didn't. come up with these names, but we just. felt like they should be more. excessively named. >> Okay. So the the craziest one I think is. the one called the Karen patent. >> which is Walmart has created and patent. or they or they applied for a patent um. to develop what they call an appeasement. engine. >> and the appeasement engine is um.

something that assesses your demographic. information and what they refer to as. your persona. a little hard to know like. what all they're including in persona. >> and they use it to estimate basically. how easy it is to get you to go away. which is why we call it the Karen batten. right. >> to get you to leave the premises. >> well without like getting a refund right. like are you someone who's going to. raise a stink and we've got to like give. you a discount or a refund or are you. something who we can like you know say. oh I'm sorry this happened to you today.

ma'am and you'll like walk away without. asking for something or are you. somewhere in the middle and like we have. to give you some pencil shavings like a. coupon for your next purchase or. something like that, right? >> Wow. And they'll be able to know just on. if you've been to the store before, what. what what your behaviors have been like. in the store, etc. Stuff like that. >> Yeah. It's a little hard to know like. everything that companies use now, but. purchase history is something that. companies track particularly for inapp. shopping, right? They know exactly what. you buy, which store you go to, um you. know what you buy frequently. They use.

your location. They often can either. estimate your demographic information or. sometimes they know your demographic. information. Wow. So things like your. gender or your race. Um, you know, in. another one of these patents, they're. taking pictures of your car to like. measure the suspension change. So like I. guess if you buy a bunch of stuff, your. suspension changes, right? The car's. heavier on the way out. And so they're. just like taking a look. Um, yeah. >> It's kind of perverse just looking at. your rear or whatever. [laughter] Yeah,

a friend of mine, >> if you're looking at my rear suspension. >> Yeah, totally. >> Dude, [gasps] what are you talking. about? Look [clears throat] away. >> Yeah, this is the parking lot profile. A. friend of mine was saying that her um. you know, her parents were divorced and. they used to do the drop off in the. Walmart parking lot, right? So, like, you know, mom mom would mom would pick. up, you know, little Liz from dad. And. so, like obviously that like Walmart. would have clocked [laughter] like 75. lbs like change in suspension, right? A.

great interview show would just be. interviewing the kids as they go between. how many kids like were like, "Yeah, I. guess at some point we like lived right. outside of a Walmart or whatever cuz. that's where my parents would like kind. of switch us out at the switch." Yeah. >> Cuz Yeah. My dad would drop us off over. there. They had a Burger Kings that had. a um it had a play pin in it or. whatever. >> Yeah. >> And he'd give the lady at the front $40. or something to watch us all day. I'm. like, "Dad, that lady doesn't even this. is a restaurant or whatever." And he's.

like, "No, it's not. It's whatever you. need it to be." He would tell me. And. we'd play in a play area for freaking 6. hours or whatever till our mother came. [laughter]. But um yeah, it says Walmart can set the. price you pay based on how far you drive. to the store or how much weight your car. gains between when you enter the parking. lot and when you leave. One patent. application details how cameras in the. parking lots could photograph vehicle. suspensions on entry and exit to measure. the gap between the wheels and wheel. wells to infer whether the car got. heavier from the customer's purchases.

That's so bizarre. Why would they even. want to know that information just to. know if you bought stuff? >> I don't know. I mean, like corporate. surveillance is getting it's over the. top, right? It's way outside the bounds. of what it needs to be. Like Walmart. doesn't need to know about my retina. They don't need to be connecting their. Walmart app to my fitness wearables to. know my heart rate. I mean, one of these. patents says that they know your. baseline heart rate and when your heart. rate increases. So, they can tell like. what foods are exciting you. Like if.

you're in the ice cream aisle and your. heart rate increases, you're interested. in ice cream. >> Yeah. >> But like this is just not information. that Walmart really needs to know. >> Yeah. Why? Let me see. Oh, this says. pulse check. Walmart can tell your. favorite Ben & Jerry's flavor by seeing. which one makes your heart race. Uh it. may reveal which flavor the customer is. more likely to purchase. But then how do they know which one. you're looking at? Is there also. monitors? >> So a lot of times if you look in a. freezer door and you see one of those. screens on the freezer door and you.

think it's just like an electronic, you. know, advertisement, those often have. cameras in them. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So they they clock like how long. you're standing in front of the freezer. door, like how long you're dwelling. They might be able to pick out your like. if you're a man or a woman, how tall you. are if you're a kid or if you're older. Um there are a couple of companies now. who sell that product. And a lot of. times they're in end caps, too. So like. that those like displays at the end of. an aisle. Oh yeah. >> If they have a virtual display, a. screen, there's a good chance there's a.

camera inside. >> Well, sometimes on those end caps and. that's at the end of an aisle when. you're going around to the other aisle. Um they'll have like kind of hot they'll. have like collab products on there, things you've never seen before. They'll. have like. >> um uh peanut butter spaghetti or. something or like uh they'll have like. barbecue flavored napkins. >> Oh yeah, that's a good example. The. screen is right there, right? So there's. a good chance there's a camera and the. screen. >> Dang. >> Yeah. [groaning and snorts] Two-way. >> Oh, that's crazy. Yeah. They'll have. like brownie flavored uh Pepsi. They'll.

have like weird stuff they shouldn't. have. >> Yeah. We couldn't even turn to the next. aisle without wanting to see something. else we could buy. [laughter]. >> That's the most American thing ever. They'll have like sour cream and onion. batteries or something. Or they'll have. like just stuff that you shouldn't even. have. They like like barbecued. broomsticks or whatever, you know? They'll have things that just like, you. know, that they shouldn't even have like. peppermint flavored uh paper towels or. whatever or pomegranate slippers or. something like that or a lot of. interesting stuff on the end caps.

Anyway, go on. No, no, this is like this. is a big part of retail design, right? Like I used to work in the mall growing. up and you know this guy Victor Gruin. from Minnesota like it's called the. Gruin effect. He built malls to keep you. shopping, right? Similarly, casinos are. built to keep you gambling, right? Like. they'll use curved walls instead of. straight walls because if you have a. straight wall, you can like see the. exit, but if you have a curved wall, you're sort of like gently sort of. pushed to look inside. Right? So, you. keep looking at the tables, you keep. looking at the slots, right?

>> Um, and the same is true at the mall. Like, it's impossible to get to the. escalator. It's impossible to get to. elevator. The food court is like a. 30-minute hike to the other side of the. mall because they want you to pass all. the stores and keep shopping rather than. um get out. In shopping mall design, the. Gruin transfer, also known as the Gruin. effect, is the moment when consumers. enter a shopping mall or store. surrounded by intentionally confusing. layout, lose track of their original. intentions, making them more susceptible.

to making impulse buys. It is named after Austrian architect. Victor Gruin, who disapproved of such. manipulative techniques. But if he. disapproved of it, why' they have it? Oh, in a speech in London in 1978, Victor Gruin disavowed shopping mall. developments as having bastardized his. ideas. I refused to pay alimony to those. bastard developments. The psychologist. involved in these studies found that the. size and appearance of such a shopping.

center have a special pull effect on. customers. The moment a customer enters. a mall and is overwhelmed by the size, intentional clutter, and glitz of the. mall, they forget their original goals. and become susceptible to sales. manipulation. They become an impulse buyer. Supermarkets, for example, in the food. industry also use the experience of the. gruin effect to slow things down, to. direct attention when placing products, or to confuse the business through. frequent remodeling. Oh, I see. So he. had this theory, but then they So why is.

why was he. >> It sounds like he felt guilty later in. life and sort of came clean, right? And. tried to like apologize for what he had. the havoc that he wreaked on the. American Shopper. >> Yeah. >> Um but yeah, he was one of the. architects of of this design. I mean, another example is like they always put. the stuff that kids like on the bottom. shelf. >> So like when I go to the store with my. toddler, it's like, you know, he. immediately sees the like $75 like. excavator at Target, right? because it's. right at his eye level like on the. bottom shelf or like the second.

>> So they do that so they can hold it up. to the parents. >> Yeah. Because like they want kids. products at kids eye level so that they. can like tell mom like buy the. excavator, right? >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah. But everything about like. supermarket design, mall design, retail. design is like really carefully thought. through um you know to make sure you. leave with as much as possible. >> We used to love the mall, dude. We used. to go camp out overnight. We would camp. out outside the mall in a tent. We would. get tents and camp out out there and. then go to the mall again the next day.

>> The mall was cool. >> They'd always have like some dude like. some people pray like wishing by the. fountains or whatever, you know? Fountains were great. >> Yeah. They'd always have like some We. had like some dude wishing he wasn't gay. over there and always throwing all his. money in there, >> but I don't know if he was or not. I. don't know how it played out, but people. would be out there wishing they had a. really nice fountain in there. But we. would camp out. We would get dropped off. on uh Saturday and we'd go to the mall, camp in the tents outside and go back in. on Sunday. >> You were like a true mall rat.

>> We loved it. It was fun in there because. you got to see stuff you couldn't even. see, you know? Hello business owners. Do you know how. many visitors go to your website every. month? Or how many become paying. customers? When somebody pulls out their. phone and asks Chad or Gemini who to. call, is your business showing up in the. answer? If not, it's time to modify. With Modify, you get a dedicated human. designer, the fastest response time, and.

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m oi phy.com/theo. Remember that's modify with a ph. They. don't f around. What was the What was the one we were. just going over? Oh, yeah. The pulse. check in Walmart. Uh, customers would be. tracked within the store using facial. recognition on store cameras, drones. flying around the store, or cell phone. signals when you're connected to the. store's Wi-Fi. Then, data from the heart. rate and glucose monitors could reveal.

how the customers feel about ice cream. flavors. If pulse or glucose levels are. different when a customer looks at two. different ice cream flavors, it may. reveal which flavor the customer is more. likely to purchase. What? Who cares? I'll just tell you if you ask. me, >> right? I mean, this is the crazy part. And look, like Walmart, like I'm in a. little bit of a fight with Walmart about. this because they keep saying like, "We. don't do any of this just because, you. know, we patent all of this technology.

Just because we talk to our investors. about all of this stuff, just because. 30% of our net operating income now is. coming from our media business, which. includes all of this data collection, doesn't mean we use it." Um, >> they wrote a response letter to you. Was. it when your book came out or was it a. study that you released? I saw that that. they wrote a response letter. specifically citing you in it. >> Yeah. So they they published an open. letter from the CEO like 3 days before. my book came out. >> Okay. >> And then. >> a week after my book came out, they.

escalated and they published a letter to. me by name and they posted it on their. website, which is pretty crazy. Like. just I mean, you just met me. Like why. is Walmart like writing letters to me on. their website? >> Because you're doing good work, [laughter] I'll tell you that. >> Um and this guy Dan Bartlett is their. like um he's their lobbyist basically. He's their federal affairs flack. Let's. get a gander at him. Bring up Danny. Bartlett. >> He used to be the press secretary for. Bush during the Iraq war. >> Anybody could have done that.

>> Anybody could do that. You see that. woman the other day? She didn't even. know she wasn't a lawyer [laughter] and. they let her do it. If I meet one more. lawyer. Oh, Dan Bartlett. That's him right. there. >> So, he's okay if they do some of this. stuff? Well, he basically wrote a letter. saying that like I shouldn't be talking. about their patents because just because. they patent these technologies doesn't. mean that they're actually deploying. these technologies in the store. >> Then what do you have these patents? That would be our question. Why do you. have it? >> Also, like I got to be honest, I can.

think of a lot of things that I would. rather Walmart's lab be cooking up. Yeah. >> Like I would like for them to make. better ice cream. >> I would like for them to make a Tide. Stick that actually works and like. removes a stain. Right. >> Yeah. and shopping carts that if you're. using drugs or whatever, you can take. them out of the lot, >> right? That don't lock up. Yeah, exactly. >> What happened to that, dude? The best. thing used to be seeing your buddy. across town. We had a cool guy who would. put a sail on his he used to sail before. he got into opioids or whatever and he'd.

have a cool sale on his cart and he. would be out there just riding the winds. of of the community. Pull back up. Let. me read this letter. and shout out my boy who was out there. Hard to starboard, brother. That's what. we'd say every time we saw him sailing. by. Hard to starboard. [laughter]. >> Dear Miss Owens, dude, they came for you. here. >> Yeah, right at me. >> Your recent public statements repeatedly. mischaracterize Walmart's pricing. practices and use of technology. They. leave audiences believing Walmart uses.

or is preparing to use customers. personal information or changes in the. weather to charge them more. Your. account does not accurately describe our. practices or our plans. So, we're asking. you to correct the record. Yeah. >> Um, the facts are straightforward. We. price products, not people. Walmart does. not and will not use an individual. customer's personal information, income, shopping history, urgency, or. willingness to pay to set an. individualized price. >> Yeah. And then I responded because I. felt like it shouldn't go unanswered.

And so, we put a response up on the. website. >> What did you say? >> I mean, I said a couple things. One. thing I said is, you know, they're. accusing me of creating confusion for. the customer. And I said, 'The confusion. is created by you because you say one. thing in your patents. You say another. thing when you talk to your investors. behind closed doors when you're in New. York at the Goldman Sachs Retail Summit. and you can't stop bragging about all of. these new technologies. And then you say. something really different in your. cleanup letters to me, right, when you.

get caught. >> and that's what's creating the. confusion. And I also said, look, if. you're serious about the fact that. you're not planning to use any of this, there are some remedies. The first thing. you can do is if a patent application is. pending, you can withdraw it tomorrow. Like we saw that Door Dash did that, right? You can withdraw your patents. If. a patent has already been granted, you. can relinquish it. You can say, "Look, we got this one wrong. Like, we're not. going to use this patent." Instead, they. have only said that they will not renew. one of the patents. >> They haven't addressed any of the. others. And that patent doesn't expire.

until 2039. >> So, they're not moving quickly. And then. the last thing I said is um you know I. think that they at this point just. because of all the new technologies, the. new privacy policy, the electronic shelf. labels like people are feeling really. confused by the economy right now. that's like creating a lot of. uncertainty for folks, but also new. technologies and AI is scary. And if. they want to create more comfort for. their consumer, I think they should sort. of open the hood and tell us how the.

pricing works and maybe even do it with. a third party because no one trusts them. anymore. So bring in an auditor who. tells us like here's what the electronic. shelf label, you know, algorithm is. doing here. You know, they have this new. chatbot, Sparky. I don't know if you've. used Sparky. Mm-m. >> So, like in the Walmart app, they now. have an AI assistant and in their um. investor calls and when they're at the. retail summit with like all of the other. big boys in retail, they keep talking. about how Sparky cart totals are 40%.

higher than non-sparky cart totals. >> Why Why would they Why would someone pay. more just because they're using Sparky? >> Well, they're buying more and they're. buying more expensive stuff. And so it. raises I think a really reasonable. question which is like what's Sparky up. to? Like is Sparky steering you to. higher priced items? Is Sparky upselling. you? Is Sparky adding stuff to your. cart? I mean these are all questions. that um I think are important to ask in. this new era of AI enabled commerce,

right? Where people are using AI. assistance in different retail locations. or personal assistance. Um, you know, we. could be unleashing what I view as the. most sophisticated snake oil salesman. the world has ever known. Like when. these AI agents start shopping and. steering us towards higher price. products and going shopping for us, um, you know, I think there are some big. changes of foot. >> I it just and do you think a lot of this. is just powered by greed? Really? Is it? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Look, when when. I started studying the economy, cost.

cutting was always the major focus for. companies, right? How do we get our. labor costs down? We'll like outsource. their jobs abroad, right, with trade. deals. We'll mclassify workers as gig. workers so that we don't have to cover. their health insurance. Like we'll fight. minimum wage laws so that we don't ever. have to pay you $10 and we can keep. paying you $7. And that was the sort of. standard form of like ruthless American. capitalism. >> And now price hiking is also part of the. equation.

>> Wow. and charging you as much as you're. willing to pay is the new frontier for. corporate greed and corporate. profiteering. >> Damn. >> God, I just want to go to another planet. where it's different, you know? It makes. you like I don't know. >> I just don't even know. >> You guys can edit out the most. depressing stuff to keep it later. >> No, it's okay. I mean, most of this. history of this podcast has been kind of. depressing, but um but it's just like I. don't know.

But maybe we're at the B. Maybe like. I don't know, maybe something will. happen to all these greedy people. Who. knows? You have to think maybe something. would happen. You know, like you're. saying, shining a light on things is. something that's starting to change. things. >> Yeah. Um. >> absolutely. Let's get back to just some of the um. some of the other types of ways that. companies are using technology. um to increase pricing or to take.

advantage of consumers. Um there's. something it's called uh surveillance. pricing. What is that exactly? >> Yeah. So surveillance pricing is a term. that's more accessible than personalized. pricing. Okay. Um, but personalized. pricing is the practice of collecting. information about you to determine. exactly how much to charge you. >> Where are they collecting the. information from? >> Unfortunately, the answer is almost. everywhere. So, they might be using your. geographic information. We know that. Expedia charges people more for the same.

hotel room in Manhattan if they log on. from a wealthier part of the country. So, if you log on from the San Francisco. Bay area, they're like, "Oh, $300 more a. night for that hotel room." Right? That. would be one example. Um, but it's not. always like willingness to pay isn't. always about how much money you have, right? Sometimes you're willing to pay a. lot because you're desperate or because. you need something urgently. >> Yeah. Somebody could have passed away or. you just don't have a choice. >> That's such a good example. So, JetBlue, um, there was a flyer who was trying to.

get to a funeral and he tweeted about. the fact that the price for the airline. ticket on JetBlue went up like $200. overnight. And he just tweeted like, "Hey dude, like I'm just trying to get. to a funeral. Like, what gives?" And. JetBlue's corporate Twitter account. responded and tweeted at him, >> um, you know, "Sorry for your loss. Have. you tried clearing your cash or shopping. in incognito mode?". >> Wow. I mean, talk about like an insane. confession in broad daylight. >> Yeah. >> Like, oh, by the way, have you thought.

about like trying to trick us so that we. don't scam you? >> Yeah, dude. Have you thought about. trying to trick us so you can see your. friend off to heaven decently? [clears throat]. >> Right. >> That's crazy. >> It's insane. >> Right here, it says, "I love flying. JetBlue, but a $230 increase." And this. is from Nugget since 94. And shout out, Nug. [laughter] Uh, I love flying. JetBlue, but a $230 increase on a ticket. after one day is crazy. Crying emoji. Heavily crying, not just a tear. I'm.

just trying make it to a funeral. And. then Jeb Blue said, "Try clearing your. cash and cookies or booking with an. incognito window. We're sorry for your. loss, dude. Actually, we're sorry. We. just lost a little bit of money by. giving you the truth.". >> The tip. >> That's what they're so sorry about. Wow. >> Yeah. Uh, I mean, look, the company came. out later and said like, "Whoever had. the keys to the Twitter account misspoke. and shouldn't have said that and they. definitely don't do this." Um, but yeah, the company rep says the post was an. error. >> That's unbelievable. >> Yeah. But it was a pretty stark moment.

like, and I think it does really show. like, you know, like I have a toddler. Like, if my kid is sick, >> um, I'll pay $15 for children's Tylenol, right? Like, you've got me over a. barrel. I'm desperate. I need something. urgently. Right. >> So, it's not always just going to be. about soaking the rich. It's going to be. about figuring out how to squeeze all of. us a little bit more in every scenario. >> How are they getting all of this data? >> Yeah. Unfortunately, we give a lot of it. away. So, when you sign in to a loyalty. program, I mean, that's just a data.

harvesting operation. That's all that. is. Absolutely. I mean, initially, you. know, they offer the perks and the. freebies and the coupons, and maybe you. can't even access the preferred pricing. without logging into the loyalty. program. But look, loyalty programs are. doing two things. The first thing. they're doing is hovering up all your. data and selling it. >> 30% of Kroger's net operating income. comes from what they call their. alternative profits, book of business. So, this is not groceries. This is your. data selling your data. Yeah.

>> So 30% of Kroger's profit comes from. >> not selling groceries. >> Not selling groceries. >> And it includes the sale of your data. >> That's a fact. It includes the. [clears throat] sale of your data. >> Yeah. The sale of your data is big. business at stores like Kroger. Look, loyalty program data is very um. comprehensive because you know you go. grocery shopping twice a week every week. for your whole life, >> right? Trevan, do you have that? Let's. play that real quick. Can we play? Is. this thing long? It's 41 seconds. Let's. play it. 62 pages. 62 pages of personalized data.

on this one person based on his shopping. history. Last year, Kroger earned over. $500 million from selling, yes, selling. the data that it harvests from its loyal. customers. and giving it to other corporations. Do. you know that accounts for 33%. of its net income last year? A third of. its income, >> Wow. came from selling the personal data. of its own customers. Let me just say.

that again. Kroger made half a billion. dollars by tracking its customers in. store and online and then selling that. to other people. >> That's unbelievable. So, if this is. accurate, then Kroger then a almost a. third of their business then according. to that, if it's accurate, is selling. your information. It's not even. groceries anymore. >> Yeah. Like selling groceries isn't. enough to like feed the beast and keep. the shareholders coming back for more. We got to figure out a way to increase. our revenues every quarter and create. more. It's. >> disgusting.

>> It's Yeah, it's absolutely disgusting. >> Who runs Kroger? Who's the CEO? Bring up. this freaking money gooner. Some guy. >> Oh, new February 2026. >> Greg Fane, a New Zealand businessman. Man, most of the New Zealand people I. know are awesome people. >> I know. I love the Kiwis you. >> I know, dude. How could you be named. after a piece of produce and you not and. you not even trying to decently sell it. to people if you a Kiwi, bro? Freaking. slang them at a fair price. >> Oh, look at there.

>> Walmart and Air New Zealand. >> Wow. A New Zealand businessman who has. served as a chief executive officer of. Kroger since February 2026. He was. previously the president and CEO of the. American division of Walmart and was a. chief executive officer of Air New. Zealand from 2020 to 2025. Well, >> this is like the perfect resume for. high-tech price gouging. >> Like all of the tricks that companies. use originated in the airlines really. >> Like they were the original inventors. and exporters of all of the worst.

practices like dynamic pricing started. in the airlines. Unbundling the practice. of like selling you a seat on the plane, but then like you have to pay extra for. luggage. You have to pay extra to like. actually pick which seat you want on the. plane. All of that started in the. airlines and then has been exported to. other industries. Um, you know, I I. think the airlines are looking into. surveillance pricing. I mean, it's been. hard to pinpoint, but they're certainly. partnering with a lot of companies who. build surveillance pricing tools. So, it.

stands to reason that that's where. they're headed next. >> But the airlines um are really pioneers. of a lot of the worst pricing practices. So, it's interesting to see him go from. Air New Zealand to Walmart, which has. also built this media business that's, you know, they're not just selling. groceries and not just selling clothes. and not just selling, you know, detergent. They're now also selling your. data with their media business. And then. now to Kroger, it's I mean, it's a it's. the exact type of resume you would. expect for this new frontier of.

corporate price gouging and corporate. profitering. >> It's a lot, huh? >> Yeah. I mean, it is a lot, >> but it all kind of goes in hand with. where it feels like we're at in our. country right now, you know, where it's. like it feels like um they're squeezing. you for everything, you know, and the. people that care just something happened. to them, you know. Um but the people, regular people still care, I think are.

still hopeful, you know. I don't think. people are losing that. But uh that. elected officials or that some of these. people are going to help us or that even. the big tech where's like some of these. tech Robin Hoods that come along and are. like, "Hey, I'm going to do something. different than just be like a greedy. piece of [ __ ] or whatever, you know? Like where where does that come like. like I don't know. You would still hope. that there's like I don't know somebody. out there who or something out there. that's possible." Um.

>> yeah. Well, and hey, I'm sitting here. talking to one. So, what am I even I'm. looking I'm like, where are they? And. here you are. So, thank you, Lindsay, for being here with me today. Um, as a. consumer, we hear stuff like use a VPN, right? Um, using cognto mode. Are some. of those things effective? Take me. through some of those things. >> Yeah, so look, I, you know, personally, like I come from a policym. background. I really don't think that. every consumer should be out there. ducking and dodging and bobbing and. weaving and trying not to get screwed. I. really think it's time for federal.

lawmakers to step in and make sure our. economy is honest again. Like that's. really what I'm looking for and that's. what I think we deserve. >> But um I also used to work in Congress, [laughter] so I know that's not coming. soon. Um so in the meantime, I think. there are a few things. The first thing. I'll say is turn the experiment back. around on these companies. Like they. figure out how much they can charge you. by running experiments on you. Um run. experiments on them. Like if you are. leaving a football game with your. buddies and you're going to go to a bar. after like everyone fire up the Uber app.

at the same time. There's a decent. chance that one of you will get a much. lower price than the others and take the. Uber from whoever gets the lowest price. Similarly, like when I'm shopping for. airline tickets, like my husband and I. sit on the couch and we both fire up the. app to see if one of us gets a better. deal and almost always our prices vary, right? Like we get different prices. We. do. Um, so I really think turning the. experiment back on these guys is just. like one small form of protest. The. other thing is you have to update how.

you comparison shop. It used to be that. you would like go look at detergent in. Target and then you would say, "Hm, that. seems high. Maybe I'll go see what the. detergent price is at Walmart." Now you. have to comparison shop within Walmart. You need to look at what the price is in. the app. What is the price online? Wow. What is the price in the brick-andmortar. store? We have seen examples where. prices at Target vary um at two Targets. that are two miles apart, >> right? Um so I think a more expansive. form of comparison shopping is another.

good tip. Although admittedly like. >> it's going to eat up your time, right? And that's a valuable resource, too. And. people don't have a lot of extra time to. sit around like figuring out how not to. get ripped off. But there is one example. in the book of um you know someone. looking at Target prices in the app and. then once they got to the store the. prices in the app increased because they. use location tracking and they know. you're sitting in the Target parking lot. you're probably going to go in and make. the purchase. Um so yeah I mean the.

geoloccation tracking is really useful. for companies. God. >> there's another example in the book of. Staples the office supply store. I don't. really know if anyone shops in those. anymore. Dude, I used to go in there. sometimes and get um all types of stuff. >> Yeah, that makes sense. Um so basically. Staples was charging customers more when. they knew that they lived in a region of. the country where there was no Office. Depot or no Office Max. >> Wow. >> Because they know that you don't have a. competitor to go to cornered. >> Totally. Damn.

>> And of course that happened to overlap. with poorer areas where there was less. retail offerings, >> right? So, you were really getting. penalized for living in kind of a retail. desert basically. Um, but yeah, look, you can use a VPN. You can try incognito. mode. When we did the StubHub. experiment, the fee variation declined. precipitously. with incognito mode. >> What does precipitously mean? It's. raining, right? >> Quickly. >> Oh, [laughter] quickly. >> Quickly. Like kind of aggressively. Okay. >> So, like there were $60 differences in.

the fees for the ticket prices on. StubHub. And then once the shoppers went. into incognito mode, the price. differences were like $4. >> So they weren't completely gone, but it. was interesting and suggests, you know, it's impossible to know definitively. exactly how these algorithms work. These. companies aren't letting us see that, but it does suggest that once you kind. of hid your data, you were getting. screwed a little less. >> Got it. >> Yeah. >> So that could take the edge off. >> Yeah. Exactly. That's exactly right. >> Right. >> Right. That's that's a perfect way to.

put it. So that could take the edge off. and that's incognito mode or using a. VPN. Um, what else can we do? >> Look, the other thing I really think is. important is saying something like I. think posting online about your. experience like the JetBlue flyer did. I. mean, he basically snuffed out that. JetBlue was [laughter] using all sorts. of data in their um, you know, in their. pricing algorithm, >> right? And I I think you know how did. how did we get rid of Coke uh of the. thermometers and vending machines? Like.

people said this is too much. Like this. is a bridge too far when Wendy's rolled. out their electronic shelf labels and. you know said that they were going to. experiment with dynamic pricing. Like. public backlash was incredibly swift. >> Oh, is that what happened? Remember I. almost I stepped on you about that. That's what Wendy's did. >> Yeah. So Wendy's rolled out um announced. that they were rolling out electronic. menu boards throughout the country and. most drive-throughs now are like moving. to electronic menu boards, but it means. that you know Wendy's HQ, McDonald's HQ.

can have a pricing algorithm that. changes pricing retail location by. retail location. Now, often they're. owned by franchises and so the. franchises have to like take the. recommendations and and set the prices. But, you know, McDonald's is pretty good. about being like, "Oh, like if you want. your franchise location renewed, you. should probably like take our pricing. recommendations." Right. Right. >> But it could happen in the future that. you could drive around the drive-thru. and it could see your license plate or. could see your eyes Yeah. >> through like a retinal scanner and then.

you pull around and the board's changing. as you come around and then it's $16 or. whatever. >> Yeah. for a um McRibblet or whatever and. you're you're like, "All right.". >> Yeah. And by the way, if you order an. app and then go pick it up in the. drive-thru, then they can use all sorts. of information about you based on the. fact that you've logged into the app. There was this Wired reporter um who. lives in California, and in California, you can request your corporate data. >> You can like write to the company, and. by law, they have to give you all the.

data they've collected about you. >> Really? >> Yes. [laughter] and his so he asked for. his McDonald's data and it was. [laughter] 515 pages. >> You were lying. >> I mean he was like a serious super user. of McDonald's. >> Wire reporter Reese Rogers used. California's privacy law to request his. data from McDonald's and received a 515. page personal dossier. Oh my god, that's. like getting a Valentine almost. It. [laughter] would honestly feel kind of. nice, like somebody cares. The 515 page.

report details his loyalty app. interactions, purchase history across 61. visits in [laughter] San Francisco and. Santa Barbara. Top products like large. diet cokes. Okay, Ree. Uh, and scan. Monopoly sweep stakes codes. Gang, brother, I've been there. McDonald's. uses his data to forecast his future. habits, estimating 2.16 visits and. $29.15. in total spend over a six-w week window. and scoring his likelihood of customer. attrition at 0%. [clears throat].

Attrition means what? That he's going to. not come back. >> Exactly. So that's crazy. Like they he. they're basically like we've based on. these 515 pages, we know we've got you. for life. [laughter]. >> Wow, bro. >> We estimate you'll never leave. In a. separate project, Wired filed over a 100. data access requests to different. companies under the CCPA, finding that. the process is often burdensome and. several companies mistakenly sent data. deletion notices instead of actual. records.

Wow, dude. It's a lot of it, I guess, does it sometimes seem like it's it's. it's about more than greed. It's just. also about control, it feels like. Huh. >> I do think control is the right word. Like there's an imbalance here when. companies are able to collect this much. personal data about us. Like we talk. about civil liberties when the. government is like spying on us or. invading our privacy. But I do think we. need. >> to think more about the fact that. corporate America is now built a kind of. surveillance state that rivals what any.

government could build. >> Oh yeah. I mean it's a we talk about it. a lot. It's like a privatized communism. We talk about that a lot in here. Um and. it's pretty scary. or it's like a. consumer communism or something. I don't. even know what it is. I think we're. still in a space where we don't even. know what it feels like. >> And we don't even know what the endgame. is. I mean, obviously it's profit, but. but like. >> it's got to be more than that. >> Exactly. Like we still don't know. exactly like why is Walmart developing. all these technologies, right? Like what. is the endgame here? Like why do they. need an entire lab filled with.

scientists who get better at scanning. our retinas and measuring our heart. rates and you know measuring our car. suspension all to. do what? >> Yeah. >> Like just rip us off or is it more than. that? It's probably more than that, >> right? And what is more than that? Like. what does that mean? Because I think. about that too. Like what is the. endgame? It is it some mass control? It. must be something like that. or is it. just a runaway. train of like advancement? You know, there are a lot of people I've.

noticed in tech, even a lot of them that. I've interviewed that are have I think a. lot of like autism in a way, like kind. of like a they don't have a human. connection in a lot of ways. They kind. of have like an emotional sort of like I. don't know, their understanding of. humanity is different. And I think a lot. of them do have kind of like an autism, you know, and when you have that, um, the last thing you're thinking about is. humans, you know, >> the types of scores that they're. developing are sort of ways of gauging. very human things, but through science, right? Instead of just asking you how.

hungry you are, they're creating the 16. factor agitation index based on how. quickly and jerkly you scroll, right? Instead of just like assessing using. human interaction like how mad this. person is, right, at the store, they're. creating the appeasement engine to. figure out if they have to like give you. a discount or if they can tell you to. like pound sand, right? >> Um, you know, instead of just like. making a tasty burger and assuming. you'll come back for more, they're. creating the attrition score to figure.

out if they've got you for life or, you. know, if they're going to have to give. you a discount to get you back in the. store. Right. >> Yeah. It's also gross at a certain point. like what do you like imagine bothering. somebody that much just to what for. their money? >> Yeah. And and again like you know. imagine what companies could be. developing if if what they were spending. their time in these labs doing is. building better products, building more. efficient systems, building technology. to help us, right? Or to like make our.

lives more pleasurable, right? >> Just adding joy to people's lives. Imagine if they chose to do that. especially huge companies like um yeah, imagine if that's what they chose to do. [sighs] I don't know. But I do think. this is the birth of where new. opportunities come along, you know, where new companies come along. There's. this company that I uh saw the other. day. It's um it's called Papa Bear. Naturals. They make like if they make. chips, it's like um it says on the. ingredients, it's like one potato, salt,

tallow, right? And like when you open. the bag of chips, you can see the middle. chip like the big [laughter] the middle. part of the potato. That chip is in. there. And it's like. >> I don't know. I think it maybe it is a. good time for um for something new, right? For us like to create more like. how do I find something that my family. can sell to your family and you can sell. something back to us and then we can. support each other because it doesn't. feel like uh some of these other places. are going to want to do that for us.

anymore. >> Yeah. Like it's it is time I think to. return to the transparency and the. simplicity of the paper price tag and. the Amish market and the simplicity of. that. Yeah. >> I know. I'm like dude is the is the only. way out of this I got to convert to. Amishism, >> you know. >> Yeah. I mean the Quakers really um you. know they really brought us the price. tag and the fair price and so I guess. you know I guess we could go to. Pennsylvania Dutch County and and take a. look around. Are are there moral.

companies that you see out there like. that that you know of? Do you see like a. religious-based companies that have an. actual ethical moral compass that seems. viable? Like are there things that do. you see like that? Like cuz you would. also think that if say if there's. certain religions that believe in like. like a moral. >> Yeah. process like why don't they ban. like certain churches or whatever band. together their funds and create things. that are going to be uh fair to their. consumers. You would think that some of.

these larger religious entities could. maybe do something like that. Does that. make any sense when I even say that or. am I just crazy? >> Yeah, look I mean we don't really have a. consumer movement in this country and so. I do think you know consumer movements. could be located elsewhere. They could. be located in churches. They could be. located in labor movements or labor. unions, right? There are ways in which. we can get together and use our. collective power, our collective. purchasing power, our collective um, you. know, solidarity to try to get a better.

deal or to try to push back against some. of these practices. And look, like you. know, because we do this work and and. we're pretty loud about it, we often get. emails from companies letting us know. that they're building systems to try to. help consumers deal with this. Um, and. one of the companies that we have had. conversations with, and I haven't used. this product myself, but um, they're. called Cartappy, and they basically. built an inapp extension. So, if you do. your grocery shopping online um, and. you're like buying 30 items at Walmart.

at like when you're about to check out, it'll say, "Hey, actually 10 of these. items are cheaper right now at Target.". >> And [clears throat] you can split your. basket in two and buy like 20 of the. items at Walmart and 10 of the items at. Target or whatever. And so I think there. are some companies who are trying to cut. a different path and you know make. things a little easier for for consumers. but I haven't used it myself so I don't. >> just heard about it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I talked to the I talked to. the guy who built it. >> Got it. >> Um what about some of these AIs like.

Open AI or you look at Grock or you look. at some of these uh larger AI entities. Are they are any of them trying to help. the consumers? >> Yeah. So it's interesting. We're at this. kind of interesting inflection point. where I do think, you know, there is the. possibility that AI assistants like, you. know, Meta has Muse now, the like little. white fluff ball. >> And look, um, AI could be a great. personal assistant, right? Like one of. the things that that Meta's Muse is. advertising is that they'll go and.

cancel all your subscriptions. Like all. of the crap that you have recurring. charges for that you like forget to. cancel, right? Like various streaming. subscriptions, for example. Um, and you. know that could save you a lot of money. to have, you know, your. bot go and handle your subscriptions. >> Um, >> but also, um, you're handing over a lot. of information to these personal. assistants, including often your wallet, right? Your credit card information. They're looking at your emails. And.

we've looked at some early research on. these AI shopping assistants. And the. biggest study of AI shopping assistants, they ran 325,000. experiments. And what they found is that. even when you tell the shopping. assistant to go get you the cheapest. option, >> sometimes it would go rogue, look at. your emails, decide that you could pay. more, and then return like the second or. third or fourth cheapest option instead. of the cheapest option, including for. things like health insurance plans that.

are like kind of important. >> Yeah. >> Really? >> Yeah. for health insurance plans. >> Yeah, this is an early experiment. >> Study finds AI chatbots recommended. pricier options to wealthier shoppers. >> So, >> well, and you know what, in some of. this, I don't know if it would be like. there there's a Robin Hood idea of that. when you read that headline. Yeah, totally. >> But unless it turns that savings over to. people who are less have less wealth, then I it's not a Robin Hood thing. It's. just.

um it's just greed. The study ran. 325,000 experiments across 13 AI models. from four families, including models. from OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, and. Quinn, testing how chatbot. recommendations shifted when the agents. were given access to fictional user. profiles containing financial, employment, health, and demographic. data. The effect was substantial. Clawed. Opus 4.8 8 showed the largest gap, recommending flights averaging $198 more. for wealthy users than for lowincome.

users and health insurance plans. averaging $284 more per month. Gemini. Flash showed gaps of 177 for flights and. 217 per month for insurance. Um, even. GPT5. uh recommended flights averaging $107. more to wealthier profiles. Wow. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, it's not like the early. results like it's not looking good. >> Yeah. [laughter]. The researchers found that the behavior. persisted even when users gave explicit. instructions to find the cheapest. option. When a wealthy profile asked.

Gemini 2.5 Flash for the cheapest. flight, the model still recommended a. ticket averaging $28 more. That that. doesn't strike me. It's just more greed. It just like But how would those AIs. know to do that? They would have to have. because a lot of those AIs their. business model is advertising based. Is. that right? >> It's a little hard to know exactly how. these guys are going to make money. Okay. >> Um, and you know, most of them aren't. making money yet, right? Um, but I think. in general there are a few. possibilities. One is of course our.

data. Like I think our data is going to. be very valuable and you know Meta's. Muse is going to get access to your. email, access, you know, if it's your. personal assistant, it's going to look. at your calendar, look at your email, look at your wallet, like all of this. stuff. Um, they have Meta has also said. that Muse may take um like a fixed. percentage of transactions. So, a little. bit like Visa, right, where they take a. swipe fee, >> like it will just take a cut of every. transaction. That's one possibility. I. mean, look, another possibility is. absolutely steering and advertising. And.

one of the other early studies of AI. assistants showed that um more often. than not, um the assistant would. recommend the sponsored product, right? And so, you know, the whole point of AI. was to like build this really like, you. know, the super intelligence, like this. knowledge. And if all it does is return. information that comes from the highest. bidder, like it's no smarter than. Google, right? It's. >> right. And it's no different. It's the. same thing. It's like, oh great, another. cool AI that's just wants to be make me.

poorer or wants to just use my data or. just wants to make me feel taken. advantage of or doesn't listen to what I. what people really want. This says Meta. Zuckerberg says Muse AI agent will take. a small fee from transactions. Oh, they. need a small fee. We believe that Muse will make you. money, Zuckerberg told the room full of. developers. And we are standing behind. this by making Muse free for a huge. number of tokens with the expectation. that over time we will profit by taking. a small fee from transactions. Meta.

Chief A officer Alexander Wang, he was. on this show. >> No way. before he was part of um Meta. Explain that the company has added. support for PayPal and announced. integrations with retailers including. Walmart, Best Buy, The Gap, Sephora, Wayfair, American Eagle, and others. >> So, let's say like you send Muse out to. cancel all your subscriptions, and it. saves you like, I don't know, $150 a year, >> right? >> Like 12 bucks a month or something. M. >> um I guess the idea would be that it.

would it would come back maybe and say. look we saved you $150 like we'll take. 10 bucks or something like that. >> Got it. >> Right. >> When Zuckerberg states that Meta is. making Muse free for a huge number of. tokens he means that consumers can chat. with ask questions of and use the AI. assistant for free up to a generous data. limit. Instead of billing you for the. text data you use up Meta plans to. offset those operational costs by. charging merchants a transaction fee. when Muse helps you buy something. So, but how do we know then that the.

merchants won't just raise the price of. whatever it is? >> Yeah. I mean, that's a very that's a. very strong possibility. Oh, >> we need an AI to come along that um that. would like help people, right? But the. but the it wouldn't be based on. advertising, right? You'd have to have. some sort of a new model. >> that and maybe if they save. >> Yeah. I don't know how they do it. I. don't know how you would create one that. could actually be beneficial for people. I mean, part of the problem is it. doesn't seem like these companies.

actually have full control over how the. models work, right? I mean, the AI. agents go rogue. They they do what they. want, right? In this instance, like the. it's supposed to be your personal. assistant, and you sent it to go find. you the cheapest option, and then it. took matters into its own hand, like. rooted around your email inbox, saw that. you made a expensive purchase yesterday, and thought, "Oh, this sucker can afford. a more expensive airplane ticket." and. then returned a more expensive airplane. ticket even though you asked for the.

cheapest option, right? >> It's a snitch. >> And like Right. And like in in the rest. of the economy, your agent is supposed. to work for you, right? Like your real. estate agent is supposed to work for. you, not the seller if you're the buyer, right? Like your financial adviser is. supposed to work for you, not whoever. gives him kickbacks to like sell their. products, right? And they're calling. themselves agents and they're saying. they're your assistant, but actually. they don't work for you. They work for. Muse or they work for the company that. pays for the advertising, right? >> Satan.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. God, Lindsay, I don't even know. anymore. I just want to freaking take my. legs off and send them somewhere. I. can't handle all this. >> Sell them to the highest bidder. [laughter]. >> On eBay. >> Oh, one of these perverted freaking. tech lords would probably buy them, you. know, for a decent amount. I'm like, you. don't care that I can't walk. Like, it's. everything, dude. It's all going to. years from now, I I I've always thought. there will be a smile. We We'll be in a.

museum. You'll have to go see it. And. people will be like, "That people used. to feel joy." And their mouth would curl. at the ends. And the kids will be like, "What are you. talking about, Dad? I don't even know. what's going on anymore. I just want to. [ __ ] eat my own eyeballs. and get a nap in." Anyway, sorry I'm. drifting off. Um, dude, I saw one thing, Lindsay. This was crazy thing that I. saw. Tell me if this is true and then I. want to know a little bit more how like.

some industries that were being taken. advantage of that we don't even notice. in maybe um that can be helpful to. listeners. They there was a story that. they had SAT tests they like the. Princeton review was charging more for. SAT tutoring or for testing. I'm not. sure which one it was. Um in Asianheavy. zip codes. Is that true? >> That's exactly right. >> Oh, >> so Princeton Review, like if you logged. on from an IP address that was in an. area of the country that had more. Asian-Americans, they were charging you.

more for the same test prep package than. other individuals in a less like. predominantly Asian neighborhood. >> And this has been going on for a while. This is 2015. Asian families living in. the US are are almost twice as likely to. be charged higher prices for college. test prep. The Princeton Review. According to a new study from ProPublica. or ProPublica, the Princeton Review determines pricing. based on a potential customer zip code. As ProPublica notes, there is nearly a.

$2,000 difference in the highest and. lowest prices for the Princeton Review. Premier SAT prep course. When it comes. to getting the highest prices, living in. a zip code with a high median income or. a large Asian population seem to make. the greatest difference. According to. ProPublica. reporters by Julian Anguin, wow. Customers in areas with a high density. of a Asan residents were 1.8 times as. likely to be offered higher prices. regardless of income. Dang, bro.

Asians getting jacked over that. Bro, we. need Asian people to get upset about. this. high income zip codes were twice. as likely to be charged a more expensive. price. because I you know sometime like part of. me is like yeah charge rich people more. I don't care but it's not fair if you're. charging somebody that's Asian is. because you think they're good at. something and some Asians these days bro. some of these second third degree Asians. or whatever they're called they're not. some of them are not even that good at. stuff like they used to be like the.

premier Asians used to have [ __ ] popping. dude there's Asian dudes now that can't. even read that good. >> I mean, look, income and willingness to. pay are not the same thing. >> Yeah. >> Right. Like, that's the key here. Like, you think it's just going to be the rich. who get soaked, but actually it's the. people who want it the most or the. people who are the most desperate or the. people who need something most urgently. Like, the problem with surveillance. pricing is, >> you know, when companies are collecting. this data on you, they get better and. better at figuring out how desperate you.

are. I mean, this is why I'm so worried. about surveillance pricing and AI. assistance because let's say, you know, there was an example, the Facebook. whistleblower um had this crazy example. where it turned out that Facebook when. you deleted selfies. So, let's say. you're like a teenage girl, you're. insecure about how you look, you you. know, you delete a lot of selfies. because you're like, "Oh, this is a bad. picture of me." They were pushing you. beauty products. >> Wow. >> Right. And so there's all sorts of ways. in which um companies are really.

exploiting insecurity, exploiting. desperation. I mean, this is like an. Asian immigrant family who just wants. their kid to go to college and so. they're willing to pay, you know, an. extra $1,500 for six weeks of test prep, right? And companies figured that out. They're like, "Oh, these Asian moms are, >> you know, really hoping their kids get. into college, so we're gonna book them. for all they're worth. And you know, these teenage girls are really insecure, so we're gonna see them as like shooting. fish in a barrel and push them expensive. beauty products.

>> Oh, and you're hoping like some hero. comes along to save you, you know? And. it's not even that guy from that song. Who sang that song? When a hero comes. along? Was a woman singing it? >> I [laughter] It's not even a guy. Um, it's. >> Mariah Carey, isn't it? >> No, [laughter] I was going to go with. Selen Deiat. >> It might have been. It doesn't matter, dude. Sorry, I'm going off track. But. yeah, you're like hoping for a hero and. you don't even like ah um I want to talk.

about um I've heard you mention before a. shoers bill of rights. >> Yeah. >> What does that look like? >> Yeah. I think it's time for shoppers in. this country, consumers if you want to. use the kind of technical term. >> to have some guaranteed rights um so. that we don't get ripped off in every. setting in commerce and you know at. different points in our country. >> we have changed the laws to address new. technologies. So, I'll give you an. example. Like, >> for a while, like electronic products.

were unsafe, right? Like you could buy a. toaster and it was short and like burn. your house down. Yeah. And that was a. real problem, right? Because we needed. to like fill our kitchens with like new. electronics and people needed to know. that their house wouldn't burn down. >> So, the government built something they. called the Consumer Product Safety. Commission. And what the Consumer. Product Safety Commission does is when a. product is um dangerous or has a defect, they issue a recall and they just let. you know like, "Hey, you got to bring. your car back to the shop because the. brakes don't work or you've got to um.

return this crib because like kids are. suffocating in it." Right? Just like. basic safety rights. And now I think it. is time for more updates to safety in. this high-tech world of e-commerce and. AI enabled commerce. So I think things. like a ban on surveillance pricing, like. you cannot collect data about me and. then turn it against me and weaponize it. to overcharge me. Like we're just not. going to let that happen, right? >> Um I think we we are owed the right to a.

refund. Um, when a product doesn't work, we should be able to get a refund. without having to battle a chatbot in. customer service for three hours and. then maybe we'll get a gift card or. maybe, you know, we'll get store credit, right? Like, they can autopop populate. your address. They can autopop populate. your credit card information. They can. get you a quick refund. >> It's simple. It should be easy. >> Absolutely. And they're stealing our. time and they're stealing our money and. our time is valuable, too. Like our. organization estimates that the.

annoyance economy, which is things like. fighting chat bots for refunds, is. costing Americans $165 billion every. single year in lost time and lost money. >> God. >> So the Shoppers Bill of Rights is 12. different rights um that I think are. no-brainers. Like this isn't like super. high-tech stuff. It's just the right to. a refund, the right to an all-in price. Like you should know how much something. costs without like the hidden fees that. get tacked on at the end of the. transaction, right? >> Yeah. No more surprises. Um right to a.

fair price. That's one it says here. >> I'm looking at them here on your. website. And this is Groundwork. Collaborative. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Um and this is where people can see they. can obviously find a link to your book. here. >> Yeah. >> Can they donate to this? Is it a. nonprofit organization? What is it? >> Yeah, we're a nonprofit. We don't take. individual money like we take foundation. money. We're out there fighting for. consumers. just like save your money, use [laughter] your money to deal with. all the price g price gouging out there. >> Um, but yeah, you can find the book at. gougedbook.com.

um or anywhere books are sold. Uh, and. you can find all of our research, including our research into Walmart's. patents um at www.ggroundwork. collaborative.org. Um, and we'll be out there exposing. corporate malfeasants and price gouging. uh all day long, all year long for years. to come. >> That's awesome. I'm glad to know. somebody's doing it, you know? It's like Yeah. It's like I. don't know. It feels hard to even find.

time to do stuff. I think for most. people, you know, it's just like they've. got you so dizzy with so many things. sometimes. It's like, gosh, I thought we. were just supposed to be alive and kind. of having a good time doing it. >> I don't know what, >> but I guess some people don't think that. that's what we're supposed to be doing. >> Yeah. I don't think like shopping has. gotten really expensive in this country. >> And there are a lot of reasons, right? Like the war in Iran is pushing up gas. prices and energy prices. Tariffs are. increasing the price of imports. Like.

that makes Halloween candy more. expensive this year. It makes Christmas. gifts more expensive. Um, you know, we. have inflation going on in the economy, but there's another culprit here. Um, and I think most Americans realize it's. happening, but don't fully understand. exactly how, and that's that corporate. America has reinvented the ripoff. >> And they're deploying increasingly. sophisticated technologies to get better. at reaching deeper into our wallets. >> And we're really interested in exposing. that. Um, which is how we end up in.

skirmishes with Walmart. Um, but we're. also interested in figuring out how to. fight back. And sometimes, honestly, just exposing it is enough, right? Yeah. >> It worked for Instacart um you know, when we exposed what Delta was doing. with Fetcher, you know, they announced. that they were going to back off some of. the personalized pricing. So, we. definitely have gotten some results. Um. but we also advocate in Washington and. in state houses. New York right now is. considering a ban on surveillance. pricing. It passed the legislature, but. the governor hasn't signed it yet. Um.

she has until the end of the year to. sign it. But I mean, I got to be honest, like, just do it, right? What's her. name? >> Let's get the clock going on this. >> Kathy Hokll. Let me get a gander at her. And what are we asking her for today? >> Sign the One Fair Price Act. >> Miss Hokll, why don't you just sign the. One Fair Price Act? Because what else. you going to do? And what's it going to. What will that guarantee for people? >> It would be um a total ban on. surveillance pricing. >> Wow. >> Um in the entire state of New York. So, it would be a huge um move forward for.

consumers and I imagine a lot of states. would follow suit. >> and New York would be the leader on. that. >> Yeah, there have been some movement with. like small ball policies that just ban. surveillance pricing in things like. grocery stores and Connecticut and New. Jersey and Maryland and Seattle, but. there hasn't yet been like a really. robust bill to ban surveillance pricing. across the economy. >> Understood. >> Um, this would be the first one. >> Wow. Miss Hokll could be the first one. to do it. That's pretty cool. And the. status of the legislation is it was.

passed by the legislature in June 2026. and sent to Governor Kathy Hokll for. review. It prohibits businesses from. collecting, using, or retaining personal. data such as browsing history, device. data, location, zip code, or income to. individually tailor or inflate prices. Please do it because maybe they'll do it. in my state then. What the heck? We need. somebody to be a leader. We need. somebody to have some balls. Even if. it's a woman that can't even have balls, >> she's got to make the first move. Like. she could be she can make history,

right? >> Yeah. >> Um and it could create a really positive. cascade. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's pretty much like just do it. That's what I'm thinking about. >> Yeah. I mean, look, >> we'll see what happens. What about that? >> The lobbying in New York against this. bill has been fierce. >> Really? >> Yeah. Um. >> gross. >> Yeah. Like Instacart's up there, Uber's. up there, like the National Retail. Federation, which is like the big trade. association that all the companies hide. behind so that like they'll do their. dirty work for them, right? Like. >> it's a bunch of money perverts. That's. what it is. It's money perversion.

>> I mean, they're working hard to delay. it, to water it down, to kill it all. together, >> but like, you know, signing it now will. prevent further delay or further. weakening. Yeah. >> Well, at least we know and people could. use it, right? It would help them. And. just to know that you're safely being. able to just be on the internet or be on. your phone, whatever. >> Yeah. I mean, maybe they're still taking. your data, but at least they're not. turning it around to rip you off. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh before you go, uh how can voters hold. our representatives responsible to help.

us? Is it possible anymore, do you. think? >> Yeah. Look, I think people should ask. their elected representatives, their. members of Congress, um to stand up to. corporate America's reinvention of the. ripoff. I think, you know, when Congress. starts new investigations in January, which, you know, they'll do, it would be. great if instead of investigating, you know, stuff from years ago, they. started with investigations of corporate. America. Yeah. >> Right. Instead of just doing politically. motivated investigations, you know, of.

Trump officials, they instead brought. everyone from corporate America in, you. know, put the CEO of Walmart in the hot. seat and said, "Tell me what's going on. with Sparky." And like you can't leave. here until I understand how Sparky works. and why those basket totals are 40%. higher. Like bring in the CEO of Door. Dash. Like tell me why you invented the. agitation index. Like how is it used to. overcharge consumers, right? Bring in. the CEO of Uber. Like why did my. colleague and I just get charged. different amounts for the same exact.

item to the same location? Is that. because you have data on us that you're. using to overcharge us? Like. >> how else could you be doing it? >> Yeah. Like I would like to see more. investigations into this. I would like. to see subpoenas, right? Which means. that, you know, attorneys general or. members of Congress can get information. from the company, like force them to. turn over their books, their algorithm, like all of the stuff that they don't. want us to see. >> Cuz like my organization can't get any. of that stuff. We don't have subpoena. power. So, we're just looking in the. public domain. We're looking at the.

patents they file. We're looking at the. stuff that they're stupid enough to say. to their investors that they would never. want to say to their customers or. consumers. But Congress has the. authority to, you know, really um, you. know, demand this information and to. take a look at it. So, I'd love to see. that happen. I mean, of course, like. that will require ticking off some. companies and ticking off some lobbyists. and doing business a little differently. than Washington has done business in the. past. But there are some senators who. have been, you know, taking names. throughout history. Like there have been.

big investigations into big tobacco, big. investigations into the health insurance. companies, like big investigations, you. know, um, you know, into other consumer. Yeah, >> it's happened before. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. >> Well, you're doing it, you know, and so. thank you for just sharing to what's. going on. Congratulations on your book. I think it's exciting. no matter what. somebody's writing about or whatever it, you know, to be able to get something. all the way to the finish line for. themselves is pretty awesome. So,

congratulations. >> Yeah, I mean, thanks for having me and. also just thanks for bringing this. important story to your audience and. being willing to name names and talk. about what companies are doing and pull. up the CEOs and take a close look at. them and and speak it out loud. there. are not very many people in this country. who are willing to do that and um there. are not many people using their media. platform in that way and I think it's. just incredibly important work. >> Well, that's nice of you uh Lindsay. I. appreciate that. That's sweet of you to. say, but um it feels like nobody's on.

the side of like the of a hu of humans. almost anymore or something. It's so. bizarre. Um but you are and so thank you. so much, Lindsay Owens. Um I got to get. a copy of your book. Can we put it up on. our shelf? >> Absolutely. >> That'd be excellent. and I'd love to. have one. And um congratulations on. everything and uh keep uh shining a. light. That's the best thing that we can. do. And um people can locate you through. your website. >> Yep. >> Okay. Or on social media. >> Yeah. I I've got all the accounts. I'm.

on Blue Sky and Twitter and Instagram. and Tik Tok and all the all the places. >> Nice. >> Yeah. >> Well, I appreciate you so much for. joining us today. Uh thank you so much. >> Thanks for having me. Now I'm just. falling on the breeze and I feel like. [music]. I must be corner stone. Oh, but when I reach [music] that ground. I'll share this piece of mind I found. I. can feel it in my bones,

but it's going to take.