Bishop Robert Barron | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #682

Today's guest is a Catholic bishop. He's. one of the leading voices in the. Catholic faith today. Uh he started Word. on Fire Ministries and he's written many. books on theology. Uh I'm so excited to. sit down and have a conversation with. Bishop Robert Baron. >> Shine. a [music and singing] song.

>> [music]. >> Bishop Robert Baron. Nice to see you. >> Thank you. Great to be here. >> Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. today. >> I'm delighted. >> You live in Minnesota. >> I do. >> Right. And you're a Catholic bishop from. there. >> Right. So I'm the bishop of the dascese. of Winona Rochester, which is the. southern part of Minnesota. And I live. in Rochester right near the Mayo Clinic. I'm like 5 minutes away from there. >> Oh, nice. So you probably get to take a. lot of visits to like visit with. children and their families and stuff. like that. >> Yeah, I visit a lot of, you know, sick.

people there and so it's, you know, probably the leading hospital in the. world and people come from all over the. place there. >> Oh, and you're right there then. >> I'm right there. >> You should start a drive-thru even. That'd be nice. [laughter]. >> Yeah, >> just bless out the window. Maybe. I. don't know. >> Maybe. >> Yeah. [laughter] Okay. That's one bad. idea for me. Um, you started Word on. Fire Ministries. >> It's a media ministry. So, it's an. evangelical ministry to proclaim, you. know, the Catholic faith. And I started. just with a a sermon show on the radio. in Chicago 25 years ago, and it's grown.

now, you know, we use all kinds of. things from publishing and podcasting. and films now, and you know, so it's. just been uh been blessed, thank God. >> And how does somebody become a bishop? >> Well, you got to be chosen by the pope. So, you really got nothing to do with. it. Uh I was the director of the. seminary in Chicago. So, I was head of. the seminary, right? And then one day. out of the blue you get a phone call and. it came from this guy we call the. apostolic nunio who's like the Vatican. ambassador to the US and he says the. pope has appointed you auxiliary bishop.

of Los Angeles. That was my first bishop. appointment. >> So that's like the NFL draft almost for. pop. Is it kind of like that energy like. you're like waiting for this? >> No. Because you No, you're not waiting. at all. You have no idea it's coming. That it was a Sunday afternoon and I'm. lying on the couch watching golf. I have. my shorts on and a t-shirt and the phone. rings and it's this little Italian voice. saying, "The Holy Father's appointed. you." And then he says, "Do you accept?". >> Do you think it was a scam or something? >> No. Cuz I recognize, you know, his name. and everything. I knew. >> Okay. So, you knew. So, so you know,

>> but you have no you have no idea it's. coming because if you're under. consideration, no one tells you. It's. not like, you know, oh god, I might get. it. You have zero idea. And so just like. that out of the blue and not we're. thinking about appointing you is he's. already appointed you now you can say no. you can say look I I'm not going to do. it [snorts] but unless you got like a. super good reason you have to say yes to. it and then you know uproot your entire. life move away from everyone you know I. moved to uh LA arch dascese lived in.

Santa Barbara which is pretty good you. know but I had zero idea and then four. years later or what five years later. another phone call comes holy father's. appointed you bishop of uh Winona. Rochester, Minnesota. So off you go. >> So when the call comes, it's kind of. like a call from God kind of coming and. you go and take it. >> Yes. And I for years I used to preach to. people, you know, your life's not about. you. It's about God, what God wants, unless you got a really good reason. You. follow God's will. So how could I then. stand say uh no, yeah, >> I'm really happy where I am and tell the.

Pope to forget it. So you kind of have. to say yes. >> Yeah. Wow. That's a big surprise in. somebody's life. Did you have a job. before you were a bishop? Like like did. you just work at somewhere regular like? >> Well, when I was a kid, like when I was. 16, I worked at a bookstore and I was. like a stock boy in the bookstore. I. worked at um Steak and Shake for a while. as a dishwasher. >> Go, dude. >> Yeah. But then I went to college, you. know, and then uh entered the seminary. and then did those studies and became a. priest when I was about 26. So I didn't. have a big career, you know, before I.

became a priest. >> Yeah. What was the worst thing that you. didn't like about dishwashing? >> Oh, I hated dishwashing. The heat and. the No, I thought it was the most. obnoxious job I had. I didn't last very. long. I quit after a few months. >> Oh, dang. >> I hated it. Yeah. I like the bookstore. job. That was I was 16 and I was like, you know, stock boy and I was putting. books on shelves and stuff and I didn't. mind that job. >> Yeah. I worked at a bookstore in uh when. I went to college for a little while. I. enjoyed it too cuz it's kind of peaceful. in there and somebody comes over. Sometimes people are just hiding from. their spouse or whatever in there, but. sometimes people are looking for a book.

>> Oh yeah. >> And you get to help them and you just. kind of start to learn inadvertently. even. No, I'll tell you. I discovered a. book in that job called The Seventhtory. Mountain by a guy named Thomas Merin. >> Seventh Story Mountain. >> The Sevenstory Mountain, which had a big. impact on me. Mertin was this um guy. very talented, very accomplished, was in. New York, wanted to be a writer, knew. all these famous people. And then, long. story short, he becomes a Catholic and. then wants to become a Trappist monk, which is about as serious a monk as you. can become, living in silence and.

prayer. And the book is is the story of. his conversion, >> the sevenstory mountain. Have you ever. gotten to meet him? >> Oh, there it is. No, he died in 1968. So, and he died actually in Bangkok, Thailand. He was there for a conference. and he was electrocuted. >> Nuhuh. >> He was electrocuted. Yeah. He was he. gave a speech, went back to his he was. like staying in this sort of like. bungalow thing and they found him with. the standing fan lying on top of him. He. had grabbed it and it had a short or. something and it killed him. That's how. Martin died, which is very ironic and.

strange, but he was a wonderful figure. And that book right there had a big. impact on me when I was a kid. >> What about it? >> It's a story of a guy falling in love. with God. And so, he discovers God and. then it's none of his instincts move. that way. He wanted to be a writer. He. wanted to be kind of a cool, you know, man of the world. And then he starts. gradually falling in love with God. And. it's told in almost like this romantic. way. He was a poet, very fine poet. actually and the book and I was 16 at.

the time and so it kind of get caught up. in all that and uh it's a very human. story and it's beautifully told too. So. that impacted me big time when I was. about 16. >> Yeah, I've heard I've heard you talk. about Thomas Mur before in some of your. uh different podcasts and different. lectures. >> Well, he was one of the great spiritual. writers of the last century. So if you. want to know how to pray, how to. approach prayer, what prayer is, how to. live the spiritual life, he's a guy that. you turn to. >> Um to to get a little bit towards.

Catholicism. So Catholicism is a branch. of Christianity. >> Well, [laughter] what's the difference. of like being a Catholic and being a. Christian? >> Well, I mean, of course, the Catholic is. a Christian. So you're, you know, a. follower of Jesus Christ. We would. maintain that the Catholic Church is the. true church. is founded by Jesus Christ. You get to the reformation, you people. that you know were quarreling with. different aspects of Catholicism and. broke off from it. So Lutheran and. Calvinists and all the various uh. subbranches thereof. But you know we'd. maintain that the Catholic Church has.

all the gifts that Christ wants his. people to have that it's the fullness of. what Christ wanted. But then we. recognize, you know, the Protestant. churches of course have all kinds of. gifts that Christ wants too. But the. Catholic Church we would maintain. obviously has the fullness of it. >> Understood. How would you define God? >> Well, probably the simplest way I say. God is the creator of all things. >> Okay. >> So, there's the world of things, right? The world we're in all the time, you and. me in this place and we go outside and. the world of ordinary things and even.

like the planet Jupiter and the our. galaxies is the world of things, but. they don't explain themselves, right? Nothing in the world explains itself. It. is, but doesn't have to be. So, we look. for causes. That's all of science, right? looks for what caused this to be. here? Why are you and I here right now? We could look for all kinds of reasons. How about those things? Do they have to. be there? Well, no. They were caused by. other things. Then we say, well, God is. the uncaused cause. God is the first. mover. God is the reason why there's.

anything at all. So, what's cool about. that is God is not a thing in the world. Like, there's you and me and the planet. Jupiter and God and the Empire State. Building. No, no, that's the wrong way. to think about it, right? God is the. reason why there's anything at all. So. you might say he's the creator of all. things to put it in religious language. He's the ground of being. Philosophers. might say, right? And I would say like. the reason why there's something rather. than nothing. That's God. >> Interesting. >> That's the that's the cool question that.

philosophers have asked. And some people. just find it nonsensical. Others say. it's the most important question of all. >> Why is there something rather than. nothing? >> The answer to that question is God. I. would say, >> how does God operate? Because you'll. hear people will say stuff like, um, well, that's part of God's plan, right? >> But then if something horrible happens, then they're like, well, uh, God can. help you through this, >> right? Like, does he cause bad things to. happen or does he just there for us if. something h no matter what happens?

>> So, he's the cause of all things, right? So, God is responsible for all that. exists in the world. You say, what about. evil? Well, evil is not a thing. Evil's. a lack of being. You remember in the uh. in the Lord of the Rings uh I don't know. if you're a Lord of the Rings guy, but. remember the Nazol of these things that. fly around on these dragons and. everything and they look so fearsome, but when they finally like they stab at. them, the cloak falls away and there's. nothing there. >> That was Tolken's way of saying this. truth that evil is frightening, but. essentially it's a type of non-being.

It's a lack of a good that ought to be. there like a like a cavity in a tooth. So the cavity you say, man, it's real. and it hurts. But the cavity itself is. just an emptiness, right? Evil's like. that. Uh physical evil or moral evil. Moral evil is a lack of an integrity. that ought to be there in your in your. soul. So in that way, you can't say. God's the cause of evil because God is. the cause of all being, right? [snorts]. So then you have to say, well, God. permits evil. And that's true. He he.

allows it to be. Now why then pick up. the book of Job is the best biblical. wrestling with that right and God's. great answer to Job when he why am I. suffering why is all this happening to. me and you know God says where were you. when I made the heavens and the earth. and where were you when I laid the. foundations of the world and where were. you you know everything you tell me in. other words why God permits suffering we. can't really see sometimes we can in in. little ways right where you say gosh if.

that hadn't happened to you know. >> Oh yeah, >> sometimes we can see it, but very often. you can't. But that shouldn't surprise. us, right? If if God, who is the source. of all existence, who's concerned about. all of space and all of time, he's got a. a design for that. That I can't see it. Well, of course, duh. Of course, I can't. understand all of it. But I accept that. God permits evil to bring about some. greater good. That's the classical. answer to that question. But it's cool.

You're you're pursuing it the right way. See, which is God is not the cause of. evil, but he permits evil to allow for. some greater good. >> I see. So, you believe that in the end. it's all it all ends good. >> In the end, it it ends according to. God's design and God is love, right? And. so to love is to will the good of the. other. And so that's what God wants. God. wants the good of the other. Uh but how. precisely all works out, I don't really. know. But you know, St. Paul, all things.

work together for the good for those who. love the Lord. >> That's it. That's the right sort of. theological vision. >> How do I best start like my relationship. with God? Would you would you suggest to. somebody who's like um maybe has felt. God that feels like God exists in the. world? Like I mean I've felt that for. sure. I've always thought that God. existed, but only recently have I. started to feel more of a relationship. Um, h how do you suggest that someone. starts to kind of begin their. relationship with uh with God?

>> You know what Thomas Merin said? Someone. asked him that question. He said, "Take. the time." In other words, dedicate some. time every day to God. So, I begin every. day with uh what I call holy hour, which. is made popular, by the way, by this. fellow Fulton Sheen. Is that name ring a. bell? >> Fton Sheen. Bring him up. >> Fton Sheen. bring him up cuz we're we're. about to beatify him just in a few days. in fact really that's the la there he is. that's the last step before canonization. become a saint right so Fton Sheen was.

this great mid 20th century figure. teacher writer he was one of the first. to use radio and TV. >> oh he's beatful. >> so we're beatifying him just in a few. weeks. >> and what does beatifying mean just so we. know. >> well it's the last step before. canonization which is saintthood but. like beatatus in Latin means happy. >> okay. >> so like and we say The beatotific vision. that's heaven it means happiness that. when I look at this thing I makes me. happy. Okay. >> that's heaven the beatotific vision. So. a biatus would be a happy person because.

he's so order to God. >> So he had did he have to work really. hard to be happy? Probably. >> he was he was a pretty happy guy Sheen. like but like like by temperament he. was. >> So a little insider trading kind of. >> right. Yeah. [laughter] But what he gave. us which I really love is he called the. holy hour which is every day as Catholic. spend an hour in front of the blessed. sacrament. So you know we believe in the. real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. And so every morning that's what I do. I. go to my chapel in my house and I I pray.

for an hour. And it could be like we. have a thing called the office that a. priest has to pray. It's it's psalms and. canacles and things from the Bible and. readings and stuff. But you can also. pray the rosary which I do. You can also. just sit in silence. There's this. there's one saint that said, "What what. do you do when you're looking at at the. blessed sacrament?" And he said, "Uh, I. look at him and he looks at me. >> and that's pretty good that you sit in. in silence, you know, >> in a meditative state. It's almost it's. meditative, >> right? And so we call that mental prayer.

sometimes in the Catholic tradition. Um, but I would recommend that is take and. it might not be an hour. or maybe you. have to build up to that, but even take. five minutes um to focus on the Lord. Now, it might be you're going to read. something from the scripture, which is. great. Um it might be if you're. Catholic, you pray the rosary or pray a. decade of the rosary that just kind of. focuses your mind. >> You know, the the Buddhists have this. thing, the monkey mind. They talk about. the monkey mind isup jumping around from. branch to branch. Well, that's the way.

most of us live or like you wake up at. three o'clock in the morning and your. monkey mind has kicked in and you're. thinking about and they talk about. calming the monkey mind, right? Merin in. fact uh who was understood Buddhism very. well thought prayers like the rosary. have that effect you know because all. you do you repeat the you know hail Mary. full of grace Lord is with thee blessed. art thou hail Mary full of grace Lord's. with thee hail Mary full of mantra it's. like a mantra it's a Catholic mantra and. what that does many things but but it. >> calms and focuses the the soul right.

that's the great thing about prayer and. I'd recommend to you or anybody uh take. the time and find a way to get, you. know, focused on the Lord. That's a good. starting place. >> And how honest do you have to be with. God? >> Well, see, the thing is with God, God. knows everything anyway because he's the. source of existence. >> So, if you're not being honest, if. you're being secret, if he already. >> What's the point? And that's what I. mean. >> But it feels like there's some point to. us. You know what I'm saying? Like it. feels like or there's a fear to do it or.

something. >> But see, it's stupid. It's a stupid. thing because because God knows. everything already. So, what are you. keeping from him? Or if you feel like I. can just say these very kind of exalted. pious things to God, look at the Bible. Look at the Psalms. For examp Psalms are. filled with people angry at God and. they're they're exalting. They're. praising God. They're they're. frustrated. They're tearing their hair. out. >> Oh yeah. It's PG-13 over there for sure. >> That's how you should pray. So why not. be honest with God about about. everything about your sins? He knows. them anyway. Um so I think praying with.

honesty is super important. But a lot of. religious people, we kind of deceive. ourselves and think, well, okay, I I. won't mention that to to God, so it. should be okay. >> But then when you're keeping a se when. you have a secret though, that's where. like it feels like um like the devil can. get in, you know, when you have kind of. like a seed of distrust. >> cuz he's the father of lies, right? Is. he? Yes. That's one of the titles. >> What the heck? I didn't even know that. >> Yeah. And that's that's actually a. really good interesting. He's the. murderer from the beginning, but he's. also the father of lies.

>> Oh, murderer from the beginning is way. worse, I think. But definitely, >> no, but. >> that's definitely additional charges. >> related because he when Jesus says, "I. am the way, the truth, and the life.". Yeah. >> See, when you get on beam with him, you're on beam with what's truest about. you, but also about all of reality. The. devil's favorite move, therefore, is to. lie, deceive, uh, distract. Oh, that's. not really true. And how often when. we're not in touch with reality, we get. so unhappy. And that's not an accident.

So the getting someone on the beam of. truth is getting them on the beam of. Christ, I would say, because he. announced himself as the truth. >> Yes. Sometimes I've prayed and it's like. I would want to keep things. Now I'm be. trying to be very specific, you know, like I just cuz I don't want it anymore. I don't want to to not have I want I. don't want something to be uh. like just mine if that makes any sense. Especially about that. >> if it's bad. >> Yeah. >> Like if I feel like it's bad. >> Yeah. or it's it's like a sin or.

something I've done that's wrong or. something I've been thinking about or. something I'm afraid of. It's like I. don't want to just keep it to myself. because I can't handle it. >> Yes. And look, see from a Catholic. standpoint uh the beauty of confession. that we have this sacrament, you know, Jordan Peterson said this one time uh to. go before a representative of God to. admit your failure and your weakness and. your sin and to seek the grace of God to. do better. He said, "I can't imagine. anything psychologically healthier than.

that.". >> Wow. >> And he he was talking about Catholic. confession, you know, because it gets. portrayed times like, "Oh, this, you. know, weird thing. You go into this box. and you you mutter your sins to a. priest." Well, that's a caricature. It's. standing before the Lord. Someone who. represents him because we're not angels. I mean, we have bodies. That's why the. sacraments are physical and why you you. actually speak to somebody. But you're. he's a representative of God in that. way. And you're telling God. representative of God, >> the priest. Let's say if you go into. confession, that's what you're saying.

>> And you go to the priest and you confess. your sins, >> you're speaking to God really, and. saying, "Lord, I I want to be honest. with you. This is what's wrong with me. right now. I'm not okay. I'm not doing. well, and here's why." And then you seek. the grace of God. That's beautiful. Because see, the father of lies would. love it if we just never admit that. Oh, no. I'm fine. I'm okay. And you're okay. We're all doing great, you know. >> Yeah. Don't tell me I've done anything. wrong. Well, that's all a lie. And in in.

confession, that's the beauty of it. I. I'm admitting. how how offkilter I am, you know, and. then I'm asking for grace. That's a. beautiful thing. There's confession. [laughter] there. >> Oh, that's pretty cool. >> Yeah. You know, the way most Catholics. now go to confession would be face to. face. I mean, you just sit down with the. priest like the way we are. Let's say, you can still go behind the screen and. all that's up to the individual. When I. first started going to confession as a. kid, it would have been, you know, behind the screens like that. But you. can have this kind of direct. conversation, too.

>> How how has God shown grace in your. life? Do you feel like personally? If. you don't mind if I ask. >> Well, no, I mean, like, >> just so we can even talk about it cuz I. think about it a lot, you know, when I. think or there's nothing for when I. think about that, there's nothing. there's nothing like that's one of the. strongest thoughts that I have sometimes. is just how much grace God's shown, >> right? >> Yeah. I'm a big Bob Dylan guy. I don't. know if you know that, but I love Bob. Dylan. Um during his Christian period, he's got this song, I look around this. whole world and all that I'm finding is. the saving grace that's over me. And.

that's the way religious people in their. more ecstatic moments talk. But that's. what it mean. Grace just means free. gift. Well, what's a free gift? Is my. being because I don't have to exist. There's nothing necessary about me. So. the fact that I am and that I'm alive, that's a grace. Now you can start to. name within that all kinds of particular. things. You know where I was this. morning. >> So our own existence is is a grace. >> Yes. Because you don't have to be. See. God does God is perfectly happy without. the world. That's a very important.

theological truth. God does not need the. world. He does not need anything outside. of himself. God is God. Yes. Because God. is perfect. God is the sheer act of. existence. God is perfect in every way. >> So then he must have created it with a. purpose then. And the only purpose that. we can identify is not a a needy. purpose. But God needs nothing. Therefore, whatever he does is done out. of purest love. Because Thomas Aquinus. along with Bob Dylan, my other great. hero, Thomas Aquinus, this great. medieval theologian, right? He says that.

to love is to will the good of the. other. And when you think about that, that's a really rare weird thing. >> So, let me say it again. To love is to. will the good of the other. the other as. other like. >> wait to will the good of the other as. other. >> Yeah. And I'm kind of intensifying it to. make the point. So listen, I'm nice to. you. >> that you might be nice to me. So that's. what the way most of us sinners operate. So I'll be, you know, kind to you as. long as you're kind to me. The minute.

you get obnoxious to me, I'm going to be. obnoxious to you. That's the way most of. us operate most of the time because. we're doing it out of some kind of need. I'm not really willing your good. Now. love. >> but you're hoping that some that. >> right exp. >> something good will come out of it that. that I'll get something for me it'll. redown to my benefit. >> but see. >> and it's beautiful when it h and it does. happen in the world when a parent or a. you know a spouse or whoever. >> right they have to love you because they. just want you to be okay.

>> they just want your good or think of you. know in a Catholic setting we always go. to the the martyrs I don't know if you. know the name Maxmillian coobe is that. Right. Ring a bell. >> Oh, is he? >> He was a great saint during the the Nazi. period. He was a prisoner in Awitz, right? He was opponent of Hitler. So, Hitler arrested him. >> He's a Franciscan frier. Um there he is. And he's got his the Awitz um um garb on. there because the Nazis had a thing. where someone escaped from the barracks,

they'd bring everybody out into the yard. and they would pick 10 at random and. then starve them to death. It was like. this horrible thing. just if someone. escaped, right, as a payment, >> right? So, someone escaped from his. barracks and they brought the people out. and they they picked out 10. He was not. one of them. But this one man fell to. his knees and started crying and he. said, "I I'm a husband. I'm a father, you know, please." So, Kobe stepped out. of line and he just said, "Uh, I'm a. Catholic priest. Take me in his place.".

And Kobe barely knew this guy. He's. [clears throat]. embarrassed with him, I guess, but. barely knew him. And so they starve him. to death. >> Wow. >> And it was John Paul II who knew that. story from his time in Poland and kind. of brought it to the attention of the. world. But now that's love. See the. willing the good of the other. What was. in it for him? What was in it for Kobe? You know. >> and so you see it's like. >> it's unbelievable. >> It's like a black hole. You know black. hole will draw everything into itself. Right. That's what most of our our souls. are like. We want to draw the world in.

Love is breaking the the breaking the. grav gravitational pole of of the black. hole of the ego and saying I really want. what's good for you. and and isn't it wild we say see God is. love that's what God is because he. doesn't need anything. >> he he can't do anything out of. self-interest so my existence our being. in this room is itself an expression of. love it has to be so then the trick is. as you get closer to God you become more.

conformed to that which is why the. saints are so weird. That's why the. saints are so weird to us because. they're not operating in this ordinary. sphere. So we talk about like. supernatural virtue. That's KBY. That's. all the saints. They have supernatural. because they're very close to the way. God is. >> So the greatest thing that we can do is. try to love in a completely like. selfless way, >> right? And it's it's not easy. And. that's why I see it requires prayer. I.

can't really will myself into that. state. I have to kind of be open. >> to God's grace transforming me. >> and prayer helps that. >> Yes. You might say it's the only way. because like the you know Aristotle or. Plato would have said these virtues like. you know courage and prudence and. justice you can kind of practice your. way to them. Okay. But the theological. virtues faith, hope and love. See, that's that's why they're theological. that I can't really practice my way. I. can just say, "Lord, make me like this.

Bring me into line with your way of. being." Uh, and sort of it's kind of a. miracle when it happens. >> Yeah. Sometimes I I I notice like if I'm. having trouble with something, then I'll. and I don't even think that I want to. like sometimes I'll want something, but. I won't want to do it. >> Yeah. >> Does that make any sense to you? >> The good that I would do is that that I. don't do. St. Paul says that. Romans 7. Right. >> So, yeah. My brother was saying that I. should ask for the willingness to do it. sometimes. Yeah. Like sometimes it's. like a little bit of like a um crack in.

the door. Like if I can't like if I. don't have the power to do it myself, maybe sometimes that I can pray just to. to ask God for willingness like God even. just make me willing to try this. >> May maybe the Holy Spirit's kind of led. us to Merin that way because one of. Thomas Merton's famous prayers begins, "My Lord God, I have no idea where I'm. going." M. >> it's a great way to start a prayer. Like. I I I don't know. But one of the things. in there is um and the fact that I think. I'm doing it will doesn't mean I'm.

actually doing so. But I believe the. desire to please you does in fact please. you. And may I have that desire in all. that I do. That's a cool prayer. See, >> he's lost. >> I don't know where I'm going. And I. don't even know if I'm doing your will. But the desire to please you in fact. pleases you. So let me have that. Anyway, >> amen. >> That's a good way to to pray. You know, >> I'll be honest that in the past I was.

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to claim your $20 bonus today. acorns.com/theo. Limited time offer. Terms and conditions. apply. see acorns.com/terms. for details. Yeah, it's funny. We're at a time where. like you were talking about like or you. just mentioned lost like being actually. kind of lost and and what a prayer to. say that yeah, I'm lost like God, I am. lost, right? Like to give to allow. possibility in your life cuz if you're. lost then you need something, right?

>> Um. >> you just mentioned being kind of lost, right? It it's interesting that we're in. a time where we have so many things that. help us have like direction, right? Like. we have GPS, we have like map quest, we. have ways, we have everything. We have. everything you could need to help us. like direct. We have all this. technology. We have so many things, right? We have so much like material. We. have so much like we have storage. facilities. People are storing attics. are full, right? [snorts] People are. some people have two or three purses,

some women and some men. >> [laughter]. >> But what I'm saying is we have so much. stuff, but yet like it feels like we're. at a spot where uh we're missing. something that we just can't purchase. anymore, >> right? When it comes to the. >> Does that make any sense? Does it make. sense to you? Like we're missing. something that's like a not on a shelf. somewhere, >> right? Which is why we're casting about. so desperately. And why? >> Yeah, it feels desperate. That's what. it's gotten to. It's starting to feel. desperate. And I think some of it has to. do with like a sense of purpose maybe. I'm not sure. >> No. Yeah. because we've lost the sense.

of like ultimate purpose or spiritual. purpose. And so when you lose that, the. Bible would describe that as being an. exile. You've wandered into the desert. You're away from the sources of life. >> St. Augustine said, "You're in the land. of dissimilitude because we're made in. the likeness of God, right? But I've. wandered into the land where I'm not. like God." And so, >> yeah, it's a Costco. >> I'm I'm in Costco. And so, I'm just sort. of lost. And uh so the idea is when. Jesus says you I am the way. Um follow.

me. Uh I'm the way you get your. bearings. I give these um sermons a lot. to kids and uh for confirmation as a. bishop you confirm these like teenagers, you know. >> So I give the sermon and I use the. example of ways a lot and. >> you know I trust in ways. I got this. voice. He's got this little kind of. English voice on mine and this little. calm guy just tells me, you know, where. to go, where to turn and I kind of. surrender to him because, yeah, I'm. driving all over the place. I don't know. where I'm going. I was better when I was. a kid. I knew better where I was going.

now, but I just kind of trust in the. voice of ways. >> And I said, but that's like the voice of. your conscience, the voice of God, that. we have to learn how to trust it again. And I would say the Bible teaching of. the church in the liturgy in great. preaching and someone like the Mertton. or Fultton Sheen or there are lots of. ways to find your direction and then see. Jesus says about all of us Christians. you're the light of the world you're the. city on the hill. See city on the hill. was like a GPS. If you're in ancient.

times and you're wandering around oh the. city oh yeah I got to go just you know. kind of just west of that city. So it. was the way I I found my direction. Well, that's us. We're supposed to be. that now for other people. >> that we followers of Jesus are meant to. be a signal to the rest of the world. But if we're as lost as they are that. and the Lord says if salt has lost its. savor, you know who's and you don't put. a light under a bushel basket. But. that's what a lot of us have done. We're. as lost as everybody else. Sometimes it also feels like Bishop that.

um. it's being organized that way by like. darker entities in society. Do you feel. like that that could be true that like. evil operates like that? Because it. really feels like that more than ever, I. think. >> Yes. The Bible knows about personal sin, right? So there's individuals, you and. I, we're sinners. I'm lost. I'm a. sinner. But it also knows about, you. know, kind of structural institutional. sin. But then behind all of that, it. knows about I would say a properly.

spiritual dimension that there's a. spiritual world that's also fallen and. that compromises the institutional and. the personal level. There's all those. dimensions of evil. I think we get naive. in a way, but oh, it's just personal. evil. It's just something that we. sinners do. Yeah, that's true. But. behind us are institutions that. condition us and behind them there are. fallen spiritual powers, I would say. And we got to deal with all of them. We. got to, you know, Paul says, you know, we battle not just with flesh and blood,

but powers and principalities. That's still true, it seems to me. >> Did Christianity ever have like a. military or was that even a thing? >> Well, there were military orders like. around the time of the, you know, crusades and stuff like the Knights. Templar and they were like religious. orders that had kind of a military. dimension, you know, because they were. trying to defend the Holy Land and all. that. But, um, we tend not to do that. today. >> Yeah. >> You got the Knights of Malta. There are. certain things that kind of a hold over. from that time, but we're not like going. around with, you know, machine guns and.

stuff. >> Got it. >> There's the Knights Templar. >> The Knights Templar were wealthy. Oh, that's varsity, too. Look at them. The. Knights Templar were a wealthier were a. wealthy and powerful Catholic military. order of warrior monks founded in 1118. during the Crusades. >> Their mission formed to protect. Christian pilgrims traveling to. Jerusalem and sacred sites from violent. attacks. Wow. So when Christians. traveled to go to Jerusalem, the idea. the Knights Templar would kind of escort. them or make sure that they got there. safely. >> That was the idea. Yeah.

>> Why were they attacked so much? >> Oh, it's a complicated story. There was. some, you know, there charges of. corruption, of financial corruption, other things. It's a little bit murky. and I don't know the history all that. well, but they were eventually. suppressed, you know, but it's like most. human things end up going bad and there. was some kind of corruption set in. there, but I think at its best it was. doing a very valuable thing. Yeah, most human things kind of end up. going bad in some ways. Do you think. like sometimes I get stuck in this space. where it's like um.

like I want like you know I want to go. to heaven. I want to have um like. happiness after like I want to. earn the possibility to I don't even. know if it's earn is the right word but. I want to have the opportunity to have a. life past this past this one here. >> Yeah. >> But also part of me wants this like you. want to win in this world as well. Does. that make any sense? It's like.

it's like you want to see like humanity. win, right? But does that really even. matter if the goal is to is is to have. uh an eternal life and to is earn the. right word? >> No, I wouldn't use earn, but it it's a. both and. See, >> but does it make sense what I'm asking. you? I don't want to lose not as a species or. as sometimes it's even as like.

good evil. It's like I don't want good. to lose here on earth. >> You know, you want to try and service. that as well as you can, but it seems. like the mo the more important thing is. this is this greater good that comes. with salvation. Does that make sense? >> Yes. And and they're both true. See, contrast biblical religion with, let's. say, Plato and go back to Plato or these. these other figures that felt the body, this natural world was kind of a fallen. world. It was low level. The idea was to.

escape from it. So Plato says the whole. point of philosophy is like a prison. break to get out of the prison of the. body. That's not the Bible. The Bible. doesn't hold to that at all. So God. makes the world, everything in it, including insects that crawl upon the. earth and all that, and he finds it. good, and he finds the ensemble of it. very good. That's that's a radical thing. though in the Bible. See, because so. many dualistic systems would say like. spirit good, matter bad, heaven good,

earth bad, get out of earth to get to. heaven. That's not the Bible. The Bible. affirms the earth. It affirms the human. project, right? And then it doesn't want. so much escape from the earth. It wants. a new heavens and a new earth. That's a. different game. See, God doesn't give up. on what he's made. He wants to lift it. up and transfigure it and bring it to a. higher pitch. Or like, you know, Jesus. says, um, may your will be done on earth. as in heaven. So, he wants to bring.

heaven and earth together. >> That's the goal. And see, we believe in. the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. That doesn't mean, oh yeah, Jesus died. and his soul, thank God, went up to. heaven. That's not it at all. He walked. in the room and and he ate in front of. them and he said, "Touch touch my. wounds." Risen from the dead, yes. Conqueror of death, yes, but in his. body. Right. So, we look forward like. the creeds say, not to the escape of the. soul from the body. We look forward to. the resurrection of the body. So, see,

that's to your point. That means God. doesn't give up on the world. He doesn't. give up on the human project. He wants. us to strive to make this world as. beautiful and just and good as possible. in the hopes of now attaining this. transformation. Or think of, you know, the scene of the transfiguration of. Jesus when the clothes become dazzling. white and all that. He doesn't go up. somewhere else. He he allows them to see. his transfigured person. That's the.

biblical thing. So it's both and, right? It's both hand. >> What do you think is something that. >> transfiguration? >> Oh, yeah. Show it. Let me see. >> And is that one particular famous piece. of art or is that um. >> Well, that's the Raphael one on the. right there, the screen I'm looking at. Uh there's a lot of different, but the. Raphael is probably the most famous one. But it's the bodiliness of it. That's. what I would emphasize. So many. spiritualities are kind of down in the. body, down in the world. Get out of the. world. That's not biblical religion.

>> Got it? >> Right. We like the body. The body's. good, >> but it's part-time. >> Not really. No. I mean, I look forward. to the resurrection of the body. But. think about this, too. >> So, you're saying our body will come. back? >> Yeah. Well, see, this this body is part. time. >> Yeah, that's what I'm saying. This. body's part time. >> But I mean, like, how many of the of the. cells in my body did I have? I don't. know. The scientists will tell me four. years ago, I nothing. My whole body's. been replaced, right? >> But the form of of me, the basic pattern. of me remains, right? Well, I think.

something similar. We talk about the. resurrected body. Uh, I'll die. I'll go. into the ground. But but God remembers. the great pattern of of me and can. reconstitute just as it's happening now. in nature. I'm get I'm getting. reconstituted physically all the time. That's a good point. >> So, can it happen in this sort of. transfigured way in heaven? Paul talks. about the spiritual body. And you say, what's he talking about? But I think. he's gesturing toward this. It's a body,

but it's not like just this ordinary. body. It's a spiritualized body. And he. sensed that in the resurrection of. Jesus. One of the toughest things that I hear. people talk about like we're in a lot of. like kind of like a I don't want to say. like a me time, but it's like it's like. we've all kind of like. we're inundated with ourselves, right? Yeah. And people spend less time. connected, you know, even though like. technology has us hypothetically more. connected, but they spend less time. connected. Um, and then a lot of people.

feel alone, right? Like even if they're. not even alone, sometimes there's this. just feeling of of being alone. Um, why. is it is being alone a sin? Is it a sin. to be alone? >> It's not good for a man to be alone, the. Bible says, right? So, I mean, from the. beginning, see, because God is a family. We'd say God is father, son, spirit. God. is not just. >> Yeah. He's a triple dipper. >> He's he's not a monolith. He's there's. like something familial. There's. something communitarian about God. And.

so he wants us to have that same kind of. thing. >> I see I think what happens is when you. forget about God, you lose your. connection to everybody else. See, you. and I, we just met today for the first. time, but see, we're connect we're we. are uh I'll use a technical term. We are. ontological siblings because means we're. we're brothers at the level of being. because right now we're both coming. forth from God's creative intention. So.

if you go to the very depth of of my own. being, I'm going to find the depth of. your being. >> See, and that's that's why we're like. our. >> and that's because why? We're both here. talking about it and learning together. >> No, because we're both creatures. We're. both here because God is willing us to. be here and he's he's breathing us right. now into existence. >> I see. So that that alone that that. birth in a way is something that we have. in common. Yeah. >> We rarely ever even talk about that, >> right? And see when you pray so in. prayer again Thomas Mertin says it's.

finding the place in you where you are. here and now being created by God. That's what prayer it means. So if I in. prayer find that place, I found that. same place in you and the same place in. everybody else. And that's why St. Francis can say brother, son, and. sister, moon. It's not just whistle and. Dixie. I mean, that that's a that's a. very accurate statement. Oh yeah. The. sun is is my brother. The moon is my. sister because we're all coming forth. from the same creative source. And see.

that happens in prayer. >> Yeah. The stitch is the same. And that. lowest stitch is the same, >> right? But now you stop praying or you. say, "I don't care. I hate church. I'm. forget about God. I I'm going to live. for myself." You've lost that now. You've lost contact with that point. And. so, of course, we now live in. antagonism. >> Okay? So, if we're all connected, then. what's a way to stay as tapped into that. connectivity as possible? >> Love one another as I have loved you. So, Jesus says to his disciples, I've.

loved you. I I'm I've willed your good. and you found your commonality in me. Okay. Now you love each other as I have. loved you. Um in second Corinthians, Paul says God was in Christ reconciling. the world to himself. >> Okay, >> there's the whole purpose of Christ. See. that we've wandered into the land of. unlikeness. We're lost. We're in the. desert. Whatever metaphor you want. But. now in Christ, God has reconciled us to. himself. But then Paul says,"Now you.

become ambassadors of Christ. Now you. become reconcilers.". That's the saints then. That's their. job. The divided societies because there. aren't enough of us. We're not light. We're not salt. We're not the city on. the hill. And we're not doing our work. of reconciling. You know, you know, do. you have that Amish hat behind you. there, right? The Amish kid that was on. your show. Oh, yeah. Timothy. I love. that. Um who's from my dascese. He's. from my area in Minnesota, Lansboro.

>> Oh, nice. Uh, yeah, he's one of a kind. I want to have him back in cuz I hope. I'm I'm scared that he's going away from. >> I don't know. I just there's a fear that. I have that it's like he got a little. too temp a little too tempted out there. I mean, there he is at freaking. [laughter] Hooters. >> I didn't see that, >> you know. And I don't think the Lord's. at Hooters. >> No, but I don't know about this. particular Amish kid, but uh the Amish. >> That's him. But I don't know, no, but. the Amish are they're beautiful examples. of what I'm talking about. You know, these stories about, you know, a guy.

goes crazy and he and he killed these. kids in an Amish school, right? And the. you think the community would just be so. lividly angry with him. And these Amish. people went to the home of the guy's. widow. Like they he killed these kids. and killed himself. >> They went that night to the home of the. widow to comfort her. and then they went. to the to the his trial or something to. show their support. That's see that's Christianity. That's. that's grace breaking out. That's God.

was in Christ reconciling the world to. himself. They were acting as ambassadors. of Christ in that regard. >> because they were looking at someone. else's pain over theirs. >> Yeah. Right. They were willing the good. of the other even if it meant enormous. struggle for them. >> So that's what we're supposed to do. See, Christianity is never meant to be. my little relationship with the Lord. And you know, so I go to church and I. feel good about my prayers. Fine, as a. starting point, but the whole point of. it is now go. You're an ambassador of.

Christ. And if the world's lost its way, we Christians have got to take some. responsibility. Like no, that's our job. is to is to say Christ is the way and. let me show you. >> It feels like the world has lost its. way. It feels like I don't know if it. feels like people have all the time, but. it feels like the like these darker. powers and like corporations like greed. has overtaken things, you know? Um I. mean, you're just seeing things that are. so painful in the world right now. Um. and I and maybe they've always been.

there, right? Maybe they're more like in. our hand these days because we can see. them on our phones and we can see them. on social media. But um it feels like. we've just gotten like it doesn't feel. like we as humans, it doesn't always. feel like we are that far off tune, but. it feels like there has been like an. organized. like. strategy against us to like like. get to like the down to the cell like.

even with the algorithms and how your. phone is watching you and how it's like. and and uh surveillance state that we're. entering allegedly in some places. It. seems like the devil is like I mean he's. like in way heavily invested in the tech. >> he loves it but it's like what do we do. like and and you can't like turn back. the time of the world really. It's like. you can romanticize the past and I'll do. that a lot, but it's like um like I. guess it's just like yeah, what do we.

do? Cuz it doesn't feel like we're not. trying. and maybe we aren't at times, but it. does feel like the sword against us has. been sharpened with a sharpener that. that we couldn't even fathom existed. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. Yeah, it does. And I that spooks. me too because I I do think it's a. favorite tool of the dark powers, the. technology. You know, one way is just. how mean that world is when you enter. the world of social media. And you know,

that meanness has always been there, but. it now it appears publicly in a way. that's damaging people. And I I know. from a lot of studies in my own pastoral. work, young people, especially young. women, are getting damaged like crazy on. social media. just the negativity and. the judgmentalism and you know um yeah. the dark powers love using that you know. >> what do we do like what do you do as. someone who believes in like a good. right even even if they're even someone. who may not even have the strongest.

faith in God right or in a specific uh. branch of religion but who just believes. in like a moral good you know right. >> it's just like. >> yeah but see that that's a very. important point actually the belief in a. moral good because if I can quote. another hero mine GK Chesterton, do you. know that name? >> GK. >> GK Chesterton, >> great English writer, dies 1936, I. think. >> But he said this about 100 years ago. He. said, >> "Men today have lost there he is." Men. today have lost their way. Nothing. surprising that men have always lost.

their way. The difference is today. they've lost their address. See, we've. always wandered into a bad path, but at. least we kind of knew where we're. supposed to be going. And he saw a. hundred years ago, it's true or like mad. today. >> that we've lost our address. Like, well, where where am I even going? Where am I. supposed to be going? And see, we live. in what I call the culture of. self-invention. I invent myself through. my own freedom, right? I decide who I. am, what my values are. Don't you tell.

me, I won't tell you. We'll just. tolerate each other, but I will decide. my whole life. That is a recipe for. disaster, depression, everything else. That's the black hole. Everything's. drawn into me, right? >> What makes life worth living, I think, is when these great values appear. >> They could be aesthetic values like when. like a song like when I first heard Like. a Rolling Stone by Bob Dylan. That's a. song that changed my life. >> It wasn't the first song I liked. That. was Sugar Sugar by the Archies. Remember.

that song? >> Sugar Sugar. >> So, I'm a little kid. I'm nine years old. and I thought that was the coolest song, right? I like that song. But Bob Dylan, like a Rolling Stone. I was what, 17 or. so when I heard that. >> Rolling Stone. >> that changed my life, that song. Uh, that's I'll put it philosophically, that. was an objective. aesthetic value that drew me out of. myself. >> Okay. >> That changed my subjectivity. >> So you're saying that something you. found on the outside of you, right,

>> like brought like kind of rearranged how. you operated. >> Exactly. Now like Merin, Seventory. Mountain is a book like that. Thomas. Aquinus, my other great hero whom I. discovered around that time. These were. these objective like beautiful things. I. remember when I was a a high school kid. and together in the class we're reading. out loud Romeo and Juliet, right? I. mean, I understood about about 4% of it. >> Yeah, dude. It's not even that great. >> Well, right. But but I my reaction when. I first read. >> the notebook's better, I think, but go.

on. >> When I first read it was like, man, that. that such a thing should exist. I I just. thought it was like a miracle like this. thing [clears throat]. >> in its complexity and the and the and. the beauty of the language and the. it it just sort of it flumxed me. >> Yeah, you're right. >> Or or like the first time I heard um. like Beethoven's ninth symphony of the. Ode to Joy Symphony. >> I I mean like if you were to say, "Hey, I really like that." What a stupid. response. Yeah. >> It would be so stupidly inadequate to it.

because. >> but [clears throat] it doesn't even do. it service. >> because it changes you. You see, if you. say, "Oh, I like that. I'm still kind. of, you know, calling the shots, right?". But really great values, the saints now. in the moral order. When you you like. the story of Colby, when you hear that. story, you're like, "Wow, I I can't even. get my mind around that." Right? So, those are the things that make life. worth living. What I'm I'm against is. this self-invention thing of like, "No, no, no. Don't tell me what to think or. do. I will decide." Bore me to death.

with that. M. >> bore me to death with that kind of. autonomy. >> What would be the appropriate response. then of something that you heard of like. you know what I'm saying? What would be. a response that was less autonomous to. to. >> it would be what we call aesthetic. arrest. You know, you're stopped. You're. stopped in your tracks and and you let. that thing do its work on you, >> right? And then you become a missionary. of it which is happening right now. because even though like those things.

I'm talking about Bob Dylan and. Beethoven and and Shakespeare all hit me. when I was a kid but right now you hear. me I I'm a missionary. I I'm I'm. announcing them because like wow I just. finished a film on the Gothic. cathedrals. I was trying to explain why. was the whole world so so captivated by. the Notream fire a couple years ago. remember. >> the whole world is like oh my god. >> and and I [clears throat] thought it's. not just because oh this nice old. building is burning down people sensed.

in that cathedral like something of. enormous value. >> was being lost so I told I did this film. that's meant to tell that story of why. those buildings are so remarkable and. powerful so so stop see aesthetic arrest. stop you shut up stop thinking stop stop. judging it's not about you. >> let that thing judge you, right? Um, and. then it will rework you and then send. you on mission. >> That's how it works, I think.

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valorreoverycoaching.com. Thank you. So you're saying just finding things to. honor. Is that sort of exactly what. you're saying there? Or finding things. that move you? >> Yeah. Well, they find you. That's my. experience is that they. >> and not not taking some sort of like, oh, I like that or this or that. Just. honoring what it is. >> Let And I think there have to be. teachers of the great values. See, who. who have been affected by them and now. can present them to people in a powerful.

way. I had this great professor at Notre. Dame University when I'm I'm a kid and. he was showing us his art history class. showing us images from, you know, the. tradition, but he loved the Gothic. churches and it was the first time I saw. like a the rose window at Notradam or. like. >> and so he was someone who'd been. affected by that and then he. communicated it to me. Um so we need. teachers that know how to do that. Well, I think one of the one of the things. that we run into is so much there's not. as much um oration amongst communities.

and stuff as much anymore. It used to be. the way you got a story was you had to. go and hear it from the source. And it. used to be like when I was growing up it. was like dude you got to meet soand so. wait till you hear but wait till you. hear the story. Right. Right. So, it had. this like there was more opportunity for. lore and and um and there was more. opportunity for like advertising and. buildup of like a story or a person or. something,

>> right? >> If you want to learn about like how to. make something, I don't have to travel. to the guy in my town that makes it and. sit there with him and develop like be. an apprentice. >> and be an apprentice, right? We're not. much an apprentice anymore. can go watch. a YouTube video of something and there's. still an apprenticeship there because. I'm watching someone do it, but there's. a human. >> there's a but the lack of humanity. there. I think I don't think we know the. total value loss of that human. connection of sharing a story or a skill.

um or a mindset or belief. Um I don't. think that we've come to a place that we. can calculate the loss of that cuz it. feels like there's. not something. >> no there's a lot right what you're. saying there the machines give us data. and we're great at that and that's it. that's a huge thing I use you know the. Siri every day and hey Siri what about. this and I can get data information but. you're talking about something much. deeper which is pattern and meaning and.

for pattern and meaning Siri can't give. that to us. The machines can't give that. to us. You need, you're exactly right, the the lore and the narrativity of a. community. See, that brings me right. back to something else that's really. missing. The uh initiation rituals of. primal peoples. And this is true across. the cultures all over the world in. primal peoples of a young man, let's. say. He's got to be ripped out of his. comfort area. So the the men of the. tribe or the the town will go take the.

kid out from his home. All right. And. then they'll scarify him usually like a. something on the cheek or they'll knock. a tooth out or circumcise him or. something. And the idea of that was. >> Well, that third one's over. [laughter]. I'll take one of the first two. >> I'll take the tooth. >> I mean, somebody got me for the third. I. don't I'm not And I'm still going to. catch the guy who did it. But, uh, yeah. Well, yeah. Anyway, let's carry on. >> But it's it's meant to say life is life. is hard. I mean, life's going to gonna. knock you around. And. >> so, you're saying that like young men, they used they would extract them from.

sort of their comfort zone. Yeah. >> And they would um. >> mark their body somehow. >> Like to say, "Okay, remind them life is. hard. Expect it. Don't expect life to be. easy.". >> I see. So it's an educational. >> And but then see to your point, they. would then speak the lore of the tribe. now. You need to know of the history of. this tribe. This thing goes way beyond. you. Way before you. It was here long. before you. It'll be here long after. you. Then the last step was almost. invariably bring the kid to the edge of.

like jungle or tundra or whatever it. was. Give him a few simple supplies, go. survive, you know, >> and come back only when the sacred has. communicated to you. >> And that's super healthy that move. See, it got someone out of his self-regard, the the black hole of the ego. Your life. is not about you. Life is hard. uh and. you're meant to find meaning in this. realm way beyond what you can imagine. And only when all those things have.

happened can you come back to the tribe. and be of any use to us. >> Yeah. If you're stuck at home at the the. attitude of a 14-year-old, you will not. be of any use to this tribe. >> I think we have tons of uninitiated. people. >> They've not been brought through that. process of and you know we used to do. it. >> That's a great statement, dude. I I'm. sorry. I don't know. It that feels like. something, man. Yeah. It feels like um. >> I don't know. It feels like we're all. just capable of so much more, >> right? >> Like I know we're we can do so much more.

in some ways, but there's a part of us. that's capable of so much more that is. like wilting. >> Yeah. >> No. Right. And that's the whole point of. it is to bring a kid through that so. that he can make a real contribution. So. how would we like what is kind of a. modern day like like is there a way to. do that now like and. >> yeah I think. >> and not to put you on the spot I mean. but. >> no no religion used to preside over this. see that's the whole like thing religion. presided over this this process. >> oh I didn't realize that. >> sure I mean go back to primal peoples is.

always like in a religious context. >> right so you're taking them out there. and you're also sharing the lore I think. the lore is so important man like I. don't I mean like this is sad to say. it's like I don't even know that much of. my family lineage, you know, like I. don't even like I don't even a lot of. times like yesterday was one of the. first times I told my dad hello like. when I was praying you know like not. that that's where you can communicate. with him but I felt like kind of like. the portal was open so I told him hello. my friend's sister just passed away and. I was like hey look out for my buddy's.

sister you know heaven. >> yeah but I just like like I think there. was definitely this bigger connection um. between cultures and their ancestors and. the existence beyond us. Um, and I and I. I'm I'm really honestly just speaking. somewhat for myself, you know. Um, and. some of it's not any fault of mine. Some. of it is in things that were brought. upon me, but it's like things that maybe. I could incorporate when I have my own. family and stuff. >> Um, but I do think it's things that I. think were l like that there could be.

some lack of in in our in our society. today. >> My this is many years ago now. My niece, she's now like in her mid-30s. when she. was like around 20, she and her. classmates, they took them up like in. somewhere in northern Wisconsin and um. made them live outside in the woods for. several days. They had to take kayaks. and they were up and down rivers and. they really put them through it, right? And I remember this kid, she came home. and was telling me about this with such. enthusiasm. And at that point, she was. like a like a a late teenager and kind.

of bored by everything, but man, she. came alive talking about that. experience. And see, there's at least an. overtone of the initiation ritual stuff. with that. You got to go through. something tough and challenging and gets. you out of your self- reggard. See, self-regard, everything's about me. What. how does it affect me? >> Is it's the other regard because that's. love willing the good of the other. But. but you got to be drawn out of that. >> How did the church used to do that? >> Well, there's a little remnant this. thing that we we stopped doing this.

after Vatican 2, but at confirmation, right? So, it's one of the sacraments. and usually given around the coming of. age time, right? So, in my dascese when. the kids are 15, there was a moment when. the bishop would give the kid a little. slap across the face. >> Well, that was that's the imitation of. the scarification or the knocking a. tooth out, you know. So, it's meant to. say life is tough. put the Lord in his. cheeks, you know. >> Yeah. >> That's what you get. You You know what. I'm saying? Or some physical reminder, >> right? Yeah. It was physical. >> No, I I [snorts] think we I we did it as.

a culture better, you know, that we. realized uh that we go now. See, right. there's the bishop like me confirming a. kid. So, we put the crism oil on the. forehead. But in the old days, they. would also slap them. >> Yeah. I've been using a batana oil. sometimes on my scalp [laughter] at. night. >> That's not crism oil, though. >> Yeah. No, it's not. It's not ordained. And I know that it's just on the shelf. or whatever. >> You know that right in the middle there? That's Cardinal George who is of. Chicago. No, go up to the with the red. uh vestments on there right there.

>> That's the Pope. >> No, he was the Archbishop of Chicago. No. >> Who is that? >> That's the Archbishop of Chicago, but he. I lived with him for about six years. >> Really? Yeah. >> Your roommates? >> Well, not roommates. No, but I lived in. the same house with him. And uh he was. kind of a mentor to me. Kind of a hero. to me. >> Oh, that's beautiful. Let's say his name. again. What is it? Cardinal Francis. George of Chicago. >> Was he was he the real deal? >> Yeah, he was a very serious guy, very. smart, un like understood everything. we've been talking about. He understood. the spiritual power of the church and he.

was a real student of the culture. So, he knew what was going wrong with our. culture. He was very insightful about. that. >> Um, yeah, it feels like there's bigger. entities. How do we I know you kind of. touched on I feel like how we battle. that, but like at what point is there. like. a ri uprising about like at what point. do you feel like there's like as a group. if we're kind of all like connected if. there's some connection maybe cuz I I.

think sometimes I'm amazed that we. there's hasn't been more like um. revolution. Are you amazed at that at all. >> just based on where things are kind of. and like because it's gotten pretty. scary, you know? It's like we're at a. place where. >> we should be spiritual revolutionaries. and that's true. I don't want like. political revolution. >> Yeah. I'm not saying political. >> but there see but the church here's. something interesting to me. You know. when the Lord says to to Peter, okay, if. you're Peter, upon this rock I'll build. my church and the gates of hell will not.

prevail against it. Right. Right. >> now all of my life I would say I heard. that statement. I took it to mean, oh. yeah, hell's coming after us and they're. not going to they're not going to. prevail, right? We're going to be able. to hang in there. But that's completely. backward. The gates of hell will not. prevail against you. Well, see, if you. were attacking a city in the ancient. world, you attacked the gates. That was. the weakest place. So, the image is not. we're we're defending ourselves against. the onslaught of hell. No, no. We're. going after you. We're going after the.

powers of darkness and we're going at. your gates because it's the weakest. place and we're going to break in and. we're going to conquer you. And so the. church is a militant organization in. that sense. We don't use the weapons of. the world but we're battling the dark. powers. >> and part we've lost our confidence. We've lost our sense of purpose. >> um. armed with the great weapons that Paul. talks about. Right. >> Yeah. Because sometimes it feels like. the church Yeah. It feels kind of.

sometimes like the church doesn't have. any balls. >> I know. Yes. And that's the problem. That's the problem. Is it. >> And I don't mean that offensively. >> No. No. I know. And you're absolutely. right. We We should be on the march. against the dark powers. Now, here's. something. >> because if you if you guys aren't Yes. >> Like if the church isn't, then what is. going to be. >> right? And if the salt loses its savor, who's going to, you know, make it salty. again? That's the And if you put the. light under a bushel basket, and we've. done a lot of that by kind of. accommodating to the culture, uh, losing. our our edge. Here's something the. saints always said about the devil. The.

one thing in us the devil can't. manipulate is humility. See, the devil. is marked by pride above all. Pride. means self-regard. Me, me, me. Right? >> So, the devil can use anything in me. He. can use my strength. He can use my. ambition. He can use whatever. But the. one thing he can't use is my humility. It just frustrates him. >> because it's not it's not something he. would do, >> right? He doesn't know what to do with. it. He it's it's completely repugnant to. his way of being. So, if I'm humble, that means I've I'm letting go of my.

ego. I'm letting God direct me. And the. devil cannot mess with that. He cannot. mess with it. >> But say you're so humble, you're so. accepting, right? You just keep. accepting and accepting and accepting. and then you there's and then. >> No, but it's it's it's a position of. power, real humility, because it means. >> So, give me an example maybe. But does. it make does it make sense? cuz I'm just. trying to make sure that I make sense. cuz sometimes I don't know to be honest. with you and so I'm trying to make sure. that I make sense to you. So when I say. that it feels like it's just like okay.

>> like acquiescence or giving up. >> Yeah. You're acquiescing to everything. It's just like like if that is the. humility then that feels like it's like. surrender. >> It feels like Yeah. >> It's not that. It would be you're humble. before God. You're you've let go of your. own pretentions, your own ego, your own. plans and purposes so that God can work. in you. So now you've unleashed enormous. power into the world. Think of the great. saints. They're not little, you know, uh, muing, mealymouthed, you know,

people. They're full of confidence and a. sense of purpose because it's God's. purpose, not their own. And then they, boy, they radiate. power all over. And that's what the. devil can't use. He can't use humility. in that sense. Um, >> are we are we so addicted to self uh. though that do you think like because. we're pretty far down the line in some. ways of um really trapped in our own. selves? It's like we're all our own.

businesses and we're it's like you know. we're I would say we're pretty far down. the line with self. >> Yeah. >> Um do you think that we are so far down. that we can't that that switch can't be. flipped? You know what I'm saying? like. we're so far like we're like looking in. a mirror of ourselves, looking in a. mirror, you know what I'm saying? Like. are we too far down like the narcissist. reflection in the pond to be able to get. back to some space of humility? Because. this is what it feels like. I feel like.

sometimes you feel like, okay, this is. what God would want me to do. And it. feels like you run into like, well, what. will other people think of that, >> right? >> You know, or how will that be perceived, >> right? You have to let go of that or you. won't be getting it done. >> Or what if nobody uh like follows me or. agrees with me. I think those are a lot. of the fears that come up. >> No, that's the whole spiritual struggle. in a way. See, is I'm so held captive by. my fears or by my addictions. See, sin.

is always an addiction, right? Because. sin, capital S, is putting something. other than God at the center of your. life. >> Okay? So it could be it's wealth, pleasure, power, honor, family, country, anything other than God. If I make it. central, I will become addicted to it. because I want God, right? That's what. my heart wants. And so I'm going to try. to find God in money. Well, no matter. how much money I make, it's not going to.

be enough. It can't be. It's not God. >> Or, you know, my my life is all about my. family. Great. But if your family is is. God, it's not going to satisfy you. Uh. now power, if it's power, it's not going. to satisfy you. And before you know it, you're going to become addicted to these. things. Right? So breaking free of. addictions and breaking free of fears. Then you're at the point of maxim. then you can say I'm a Catholic priest. Take me. Right now that's an extreme.

case. That's a martyr. >> Yeah. >> But but see on a smaller scale that's. true of all of us. I would say this to. you. You do what you discern God wants. you to do and don't worry about the. rest. I had a teacher when I was high. school, good guy, Mr. Stark. He he was. our religion teacher. He came in one day. and he had this glass, this glass of. plain water, right? And without saying a. word, he took this little eye dropper. and put boop, one little drop of blue. poop in it and then proceeded to teach. the class. Never referred to it and.

finished the class 45 minutes and then. he said, "Uh, do you see this water up. here?" And by that time it was all blue, right? >> Dark, even like dark blue. >> And he said that was from one drop. And. then he said. >> that's the influence of a saint. And. that's always stayed in my mind. I think. that's right. You know that a saint, which means someone doing God's will, can have this enormous transformative. effect. And so do what God calls you to. do. And don't worry about it. You'll be. that one drop of water that will make. this huge difference.

>> And that's for everyone. >> Yeah. And gosh, if everyone did that, we. you'd transform the world. And then. >> we're trying. I think it's just tough. because it feels like uh the people that. own the water, >> right? >> Like come over and say, "Nah, no more. blue water.". >> But the gates of hell will not prevail. against us. So if we have that. confidence, you know, >> right? In the end there's in the end you. have to believe that there's you have to. believe in good at the end. you cuz. there's no other way to operate. >> that is like that gives you any reward,

>> right? Does that make sense to you? Like. you have to believe that like even if. everything points to like no, you have. to just have hope and keep going. >> I I believe the desire to please you. does in fact please you, Merin says, right? So as long as I I have that. desire, all right, and I just follow it. and just do what what it prompts you to. do and God will make it happen, you. know. So in a way, you want to pull back.

from the world and just think about you, what God's calling you to do. >> Yeah. >> And you know, people I have this online. ministry, so a lot of times people will. write in and you you know, look, Bishop, I'm depressed. I'm just I'm in terrible. shape. I'm I'm so unhappy. What do I do? because I don't know these people and I. don't want to be giving big advice to. people I don't know. >> for sure. >> but the one I feel confident giving and. I do I'll say perform every day the. simplest act of love. and they know what I mean by that to.

will the good of the other and it might. be it's a note to somebody it's a kind. word it's a smile. >> because in it in that very act you're. pulled out of yourself. >> you know Jordan Peterson has said he's. right about. that self consciousness and misery are. identical. >> And see, that's the point we've been. talking about all day today is the more. I turn inward, that makes me miserable. What are the best moments in a day. without exception when I'm least aware.

of myself and I'm lost in something, whether it's, you know, it's Willie. Nelson or it's or it's Romeo and Juliet. or it's the Shark Cathedral or it's. >> or the Indiana Fever I like. >> or it's this conversation, it what draws. you out of yourself, that's what gives. you joy. See which is why the spiritual. life it's it's always like on a razor's. edge. You know I I become happy when I'm. least preoccupied with me. >> and boom. >> Oh yeah. >> All of religious practice all of it is. simply meant to affect that change.

Right. >> Yes. >> That's the whole purpose of it. >> Understood. Yeah. Some of my f most. favorite moments are thinking about. somebody else. >> Yes. You know. >> and you become truly happier and better. in that measure. >> Well I just end up feeling better. >> Feeling better. Right. I I've gotten so. there's times I've been so sick of. myself like. >> I work and you have to see video of. myself and then I have to edit sometimes. and I'm like dear God like [laughter]. >> you know so sometimes I wake if I wake. up and I'm thinking about somebody else. that the first thought in my head is of. somebody else.

>> it literally feels like the greatest. thing it feels like the most like the. best ice cream a flavor they don't even. have that nobody else can get. >> right because if put it in theological. terms you are at that moment in in tune. tune with God. >> Yeah, >> God is love. And so the simplest act of. love puts you in tune with God and. therefore makes you happy. [snorts and laughter]. >> Yeah, it does, man. And it gets I will. say this, dude. I It starts to get a. little bit addicting.

>> and a but it's positive. Yeah. Thinking. about other people and like wishing. other people well and stuff like that, you feel like a little a little Hallmark. section. >> Abs. Well, you know, another spiritual. hero of mine is Terza of Lisure. Don't. know that name by chance. He's very. popular in the Catholic world. >> Terz. of Liz was a little town in northwestern. France and she was a nun who joined the. convent when she was 15. She died at 24. She lived there for nine years. >> Lived like in a worldly sense a nothing.

life, right? But she wrote a little book. called the story of a soul which has. been massively popular all over the. world. Most Catholic churches almost. anywhere in the world you'll find a. statue of the little flower. That's her. nickname, the little flower. >> St. TZ. >> There we go. Yeah, there she is. >> Oh, maybe I could get a piece of her. >> Oh, >> anyway, her book, The Story of a Soul. >> And she has a spiritual path. It's. called the little way, right? What's the. little way? >> It's at every moment of the day, find the path of love.

>> So that at every moment, no matter what. condition you're in, there's an. opportunity for love. Do it. That's the. little way. So like right now, what's. the path of love? And see, I would say, well, the path of love right now is. talking to you. >> I think I'm willing the good of the. other. I think you're willing my good. Yeah, >> this is the path of love. So good. That's stay on that. >> Amen. >> And every moment there's an opportunity. for it. What most of us sinners do is we. choose the opposite. We'll say, "No, I'll go through my day choosing the. opposite of love,

>> which is why I'm miserable.". >> What's the fear then? Because you're not. going to have something if you, you. know, it's like a fear. There's a lot of. fear attached to it. Yes. >> Not going to have enough time to do the. things I need to do. >> Yep. Which is why we put in front of our. eyes as as c as Christians Jesus. crucified. See, because. >> you know that you know the Buddhist. thing uh invite your fears in for tea. Do you know about that? It's a spiritual. practice. >> where you say, "Okay, what am I afraid. of? I'm afraid of failure. I'm afraid. of, you know, this is not going to go. well. I'm afraid that person doesn't. like me anymore. I'm afraid of getting.

sick. I'm afraid of dying." Okay. So now. imagine you're inviting them all in for. tea and you're going to okay there's my. fear of death, there's my fear of. failure. Welcome. And you serve tea to. them all. And what what that exercise. accomplishes is it detaches you from. your fears. >> You realize, okay, but I'm I'm not my. fear of death and I I'm something else. Well, put that in Christian terms. It's. detachment spirituality. I'm I'm. detached from. both my success and my failure.

>> Right? Whether that's Ignatius of Liola, whether I have a long life or a short. life, I don't care. Whether I'm. successful or a failure, I don't really. care. >> Uh I'm I'm living in a space where I'm. detached from any of the goods of the. world. >> That's spiritual maturity. That's being. a very hard see. But but and that gives. you freedom, though. Now I'm I'm free. >> Oh yeah. You're the binds aren't there. then. And then you operate like at a I. mean you're on a different plane then if. you can do that. >> And then you can accomplish God's. purpose. See, he he can now work with.

free people. Is the trouble is he we're. we sinners are all addicts. We're all. addicted and we're all at best we're in. like treatment programs for types of. addiction. That's what religion is. It's. a kind of like a treatment program for. addiction. If we can get free of our. addictions, uh then God can use us, right? >> Um speaking of addiction, like there's a. lot of uh you know, pornography is such. a huge thing in the world these days. Um, and it's such a tool that's used. really, I believe, to like tear apart.

the American family and just families. around the world. And I shouldn't say. the American family, I'm sorry, but. families everywhere. You know, you're. taking away like um you're kind of. hijacking people's lust and their love. really. A lot of times, you know, um. we've had people on and talk about uh. that run porn addiction recovery centers. and stuff like that. I feel like it's to. me it feels like it's one of the biggest. problems that's going on out there. um. has the church spoken out like it feels. like to speak out against it like um and.

what do we do there? Because like. there's evil people that are just that. are using this horrible stuff to ruin. us. >> Yes. >> And it's working. >> Yeah. No, I. >> sorry I got aggressive, but I think it. just makes me so angry. >> No, I totally agree with you. Oh, like. you know, like my generation, I mean, thank God we didn't get addicted the way. young people are now because you. couldn't get pornography the way I mean, a 10-year-old could get hardcore.

pornography on his on his cell phone. >> Oh, I had to have a buddy sketch me a. little something for the weekend. You. give him a couple bucks. >> It was not easy, [clears throat] right? >> And you get a return fee, too, if you. returned it. I kept mine. [laughter]. But yeah, so it was a different time. >> Well, thank God. See, we didn't get. addicted the same way. But man today and. you know I worked um in seminary work. and with these young people. >> almost everybody to some degree is. addicted to pornography. >> So many of my friends but what happens. is you watch pornography and you you see. it and they make they specifically make.

things. It's like. >> father child, you know what I'm saying? They make evil scenario. It's the most. evil and it's gotten more evil. It used. to be like nice person meets, you know, meets other nice person. like it started. out I think kind of like [laughter]. slightly maybe realistic you know. >> yeah but see it has to do that though. because it's got to get ever more you. know titilating and ever more different. and that's not enough anymore so. >> but it even attack like the famil like. the f you know it's like dad you know. it's like mother steps it's like it's.

just like um. >> I don't know but it's so engineered it's. like what do we do like how why can't if. Christianity is so strong and it's so. many people why can't it eliminate that. from like being allowed to be played in. our country or whatever. Does that make. any sense to you? >> Yeah, I know. But the problem is that. that Christians have often lost their. edge or lost their sense of of challenge. to the culture. You know, we've. acquiesed to a lot of the culture. We. put the light under the bushel basket. I.

gave a talk this couple years ago. We. had this big Eucharistic congress. gathering in Indianapolis. I spoke to. like 50,000 people and I said, you know, if if every Christian in this country. started living according to what we call. the evangelical councils, you know, like. the great recommendations given by the. Lord, we changed the country overnight. You know, if we could harness the power. of Christians, but we've we've lost our. edge to a degree. And you're right, this. is a major area though uh because it's. drawing young people into really bad.

addictive patterns and it's hurting. their their brain chemistry is getting. affected. >> Yeah. I mean I I I've certainly been. down that road myself. So I'm not like. I'm also not separating myself from. anybody that you know I've gone to like. different recovery like you know. meetings for it that my buddy runs. So. it's like I've certainly been affected. by it. you know, I don't feel like I. feel like I'm like I've certainly gotten. into a better place because I have a lot. more awareness now. Um, but yeah, I could I've seen the way that. it's affected my own life and it's.

absolutely. >> Yeah. the way it's just cuz it takes. away the way that you look at a woman. It takes away the look that the way that. you then like look at your spouse or. your girlfriend or even just other women. that are involved in your life and. circle. >> Um, >> no, like the sexual lives of of married. couples are getting dysfunctional. because of pornography. Well, it just. hijacks the [clears throat] connection. and it's like like. >> dude, we are we hardly have any. connection and then it's like. >> but it's like Yeah. When does like is. the church strong enough? Is the ca. because the Catholic church is the.

largest group in the world, isn't it? >> Yeah. Well, the largest I get it right. I mean, the largest Christian. denomination in the world. Yeah. >> Like how Yeah. Like I don't know what to. like I'm not I don't know if I'm I hope. I don't sound like I'm preaching at you, do I? No, I guess. >> I think I'm just bummed out about it and. I don't know what to do. And I think. it's like. >> I guess I'm asking a power that seems. greater than myself. Like what? And and. I know that's not just you. Like you. have total control over everyone in.

their behaviors. But I'm asking like um. yeah h how do you like but how do we get. it out of our like you [clears throat]. would think if something gross came into. our or something that was causing a lot. of harm came into our world with the. sheer number of people that we could get. rid of it. >> Yeah. I I mean I think there does have. to be some kind of government. intervention when it comes to. pornography. There should be some. greater control over people's access to. it. It's way too easy especially for. young people to access it. And I think. it is a real blight upon society. And I.

think there there should be more. government intervention. The church has. indeed spoken out against it. We've. issued things as as the bishops of. America about pornography and different. ways of addressing it and helping people. with it. But I think it's got it's. reached the point where the government's. got to get involved. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. It's heartbreaking kind of. >> But you know the thing is no one should. feel. >> heartbreaking fully. Not kind of. It's. heartbreaking fully. Yeah. >> But going and I I didn't mean to You. didn't feel like I made you feel. uncomfortable about it, did you? >> No. >> Okay. Good. No, no. I mean, because. we're all coping with this.

>> We're all here in the world. >> But also that no one should ever feel. self-righteous because as I say, all sin. is an addiction. Everyone's addicted to. something. >> Oh, yeah. >> You know, this there's story about St. Augustine uh the great, you know, Augustine, author of the Confessions and. all this. He's um he's very ambitious. guy, right? And he wants to be speechw. writer for the Roman emperor. And he. gets the job and he's just so excited. and he's being carried on a litter, right, to the site where one of his. speeches the emperor is going to give. And he's so excited. And on the way he. sees this this hopelessly drunk guy just.

carrying on and you know and Augustine. like oh look at this poor slob this you. know addict and then it occurred to him. he said yeah but tomorrow he'll be sober. and I will still be drunk on ambition. And it was like this moment of of. illumination for Augustine with all of. his sophistication and I'm such a he. said I'm a worse addict than that guy. So I mean all of us sinners we're we're. all hooked on something. >> Oh yeah. And um. >> yeah, I've been hooked on a couple of. those things. Yeah. Working, thinking.

that work would solve things. Um drugs, um porno, um trying to think of what else. That's. that might be it probably. And most of. those I'm in recovery for. I just don't. do anymore. Um or I'm not doing anymore. Um so that's been good. But like uh but. yeah, there's a lot out there. You know, there's a lot of things that can get us. addicted out there. Again, speaking from. a Christian standpoint, when you put up. the the crucified Jesus, it's such a. weird thing. And I'm always trying to.

convince people realize how deeply weird. it is that we put up in our churches. If. someone came like in a time machine from. the ancient from Roman world and and. they walked in a room and they said, "Oh, this is a religious gathering." And. they see this guy on a cross, they say, "What is the matter with you people? That's like the grossest thing." And. this poor slob being put to death on. this miserable instrument of torture. So. taxiderermy is our savior. You know. >> why do we do it? Right? Why do we do it? Well, because you look at Jesus on the. cross and you say, "Okay, he's got no.

wealth. He's got no pleasure. He's got. no power. He's got no honor. He's he's a. disgrace to his family. He's being. mocked." It's like every single thing. that we want or that we're afraid of, there it is. >> And he's got he's got like none of it. All of our fears are on full display. >> Yeah. Bear. >> And yet and in that Right. and it's. stripped naked like he's got nothing and. he says, "Father, forgive them and into. your hands I commend my spirit." He's.

someone utterly at that moment ordered. to God. See, that's what's so. weirdly powerful about the cross. It's a. stripping away, see of all of our. addictions, all of our illusions. Um, what's that line? When the great poet. We'd rather be ruined than changed. We'd. rather die in our dread than mount the. cross of the moment and let our. illusions die. That's Odden, a great. Christian poet. You know, >> say that last part. We'd rather mount. the cross of the moment than let our.

illusions die. >> Uh we'd rather be ruined than changed. We'd rather die in our dread than mount. the cross of the moment and let our. illusions die. The cross of the m like. to that we have to mount our own cross. Right. Right. That we're we have to be. stripped of these things. You know, go. back to the very beginning of our. conversation about about evil. You well, why would God allow this? Well, see, evil, you might say, in a superficial. way, like, oh, yeah, I was stripped of. this thing that I really want. That.

could be the best thing. That's could be. exactly what God wants. He wants to. strip you of of your addiction to this. thing, you know? So, that's mounting the. cross of the moment and letting our. illusions die. >> Yeah. It's like you'd like like if you. were brave enough, if I don't if I don't. mount the cross of the moment, right? If. I don't saddle up and say, "Okay, this. is it." Then I just I just get to live. in the comfort of this hypothetical idea. of of how things could have gone.

because there's comfort in not taking. risks. >> Right. Right. There's a demand there and. there's a stripping bear that God wants. you to do and you're not going to do it. I'd rather be ruined than changed. Yeah, >> he's calling you to a spiritual change. That's that's conversion in Jesus. Metaninoia in his in the Greek of the. New Testament. Going beyond the mind you. have. That's what that means. Metaninoia. >> Scary. >> Yes. Right. It is very because we all. have a mindset in place.

>> And Jesus always is saying metaninoate. You got to get beyond the mind you have. And to reach the point of the little. flower, right? love every moment or of. maxim. boy that's that is a major metaninoia. that's going way beyond the mind that. you have uh because the mind we have is. an addictive mind it's self- reggarding. it's self-important self-protecting. think of all the energy most of us. sinners every day go through putting.

walls around ourselves for protection. mounting attacks against our enemies. >> see but all of that is living in in um. the land of unlikeness. All right. The. way. >> it's miserable. >> Yes. And it's miserable. >> What? See, religion is all about joy. Jesus says that, "I've come that you. might have life and have it to the full. I've come that you might have joy and. that your joy will be complete." That's. what we're here for. Yeah. You know, and. uh um. >> Yeah. When I was running like when I was. like in a relationship that I was.

cheating all the time, it was miserable. cuz I was always worried. I was always. concerned. I was always sick of like my. behavior and I was just like the lies. and just like it was always a nightmare, >> right? And isn't it funny like but the. church has been saying that forever. It's been it's been warning against that. like forever. But what's the move of the. fallen mind? Oh, the church puritanical. hung up on sex. God give me a break and. you know you're caught in the middle. ages. No, no, no. It's telling a truth.

that you discovered through experience, right? The church's been saying that. forever. You know, the Bible knew that. truth forever. >> One of the biggest ways that uh like. pornography and different addictions and. stuff keep us down is uh shame. You. know, why does God allow us to have. shame or how does God view shame or how. do you see that? >> Yeah. Well, shame shame is not bad. Think of Adam and Eve, right? So, they. they cover themselves and they feel. shame in the presence of God. That's a. healthy reaction. If. >> shame is. >> it is if you're shamed in the presence.

of God. I I mean if you're feeling shame. in front of somebody else, but it might. that might be stupid. It might be for. the wrong reason or it might be. misplaced. >> But I'm saying like deep shame, you. know, like you're just so ashamed of. yourself that you can't even. >> see. But that's liberating if if in the. presence of God you feel ashamed of what. you've said or done. Good. That's God's. way of trying to, you know, that's why I. like the conscience. Um John Henry Newman, another hero of. mine. >> John Henry Newman. >> John Henry Newman. Cardinal Newman. They. just named him a saint a while ago.

>> Congrats. >> There he is. Yeah. Congratulations, John. Henry Newman. >> He referred to the conscience. >> Yeah, >> there he is. As the aboriginal vicor of. Christ in the soul. >> The the representative of Christ in the. soul is your conscience. So when your. conscience says to you, "Oh man, come. on. That was bad. That's terrible." And. you feel ashamed. That's Christ speaking. to you. When the conscience, he says. like rewards you. And it does. The. conscience says, "Hey, good." Yeah. with. with with good feeling, you're rewarded.

Pay attention to it. That that's the. vicor of Christ in the soul. That's. that's the voice of Christ in the soul. >> Let's pivot a little bit. I wanted to. talk real quick about like just some. interesting things from the Catholic. Church from just like history. >> They used to have the things called. indulgences. >> Yeah. >> Can you tell me a little bit about that? Like uh it's just so it's just like. funny to me. I just learned about it the. other day. My friend Mr. Tommy was. telling me about it. >> Yeah. And we still talk about. indulgences. it would be you know in the. treasury of Christ. So we say that.

Christ won for us salvation and by his. great act of self-sacrifice there's a. kind of treasury in heaven and that we. can call upon that you know on behalf of. people that we love and we can pray and. we can um um benefiting from that. someone can um grow closer to God. someone can to put it crudely you know. get time off of purgatory it's just a. way of saying that lessening our our. punishment it's calling upon the the. treasury of Christ, let's say.

>> Is it a true thing? Because someone said. you could like bail your wife out of. purgatory or something like that or bail. your cousin out or whatever. >> The problem is the time of the. reformation when people were selling. indulgences. Yes. So, the church does. not smile upon that. Now, that was being. done in the middle ages where people. would, you know, for this amount of. money I will sell you an indulgence to. get your aunt out of purgatory, you. know, for 60 years or something. >> Cuz that's crazy cuz then I'm guessing. probably those guys would hit you up and. be like, "Hey, your brother's been in. purgatory for like 11 months. Is he. going to. >> right. >> get him out or what? You know, like.

>> so it was abused because it became. something that depended upon, you know, >> people started taking advantage of it, >> right? And and it should not be. something that's that's bought or sold. So in itself, it's a legitimate thing, but not to to be buying or selling. >> Um there's a lot of talk these days. about like in the Middle East like of. there there's like a genocide going on. There's like a lot of like you know. conflict in the Middle East. Like is the. is is the Israel that we see that gets. talked about in the Bible is it the same. is like the as the government of Israel. that's running the country that's there.

now? >> No. That's an important discussion. >> How does the church view that kind of or. do they even have a view on it? >> Yeah. I I mean I'd sum it up this way. that the church recognizes the right of. the state of Israel to exist. So the. churches and the popes have affirmed. that you know over the last several. decades. But it's important to make that. distinction you just did. There's. biblical Israel, then there's the modern. political state of Israel, and they're. two different things. Um, which means, you know, a Catholic can certainly be. critical of of the government policies.

of the state of Israel as we would of. any other government. >> Yeah. Sure. >> Um, Israel, see, functions very uh. powerfully and symbolically in the. Bible. Promised land, right? So there's. the promised land that was promised to. the ancient Israelites, but it becomes. in Christ now symbolic of the promised. land of heaven. So the new Israel we. might say is the church and the church. as itself a sign of heaven, you know. So. it's very important to make that.

distinction between Israel used in the. Bible and then the modern state of. Israel. >> So it's not the same group. >> No. No. Secondly, the church has been. adamant against all forms of. anti-semitism. So go back, the popes. over the last many decades been really. strong on that. The pope's visits to. Jerusalem, the pope visiting synagogues. and all that. So we're against. anti-semitism. >> Understood. Um there's been like in the. Catholic church there was like over the. years there was like kind of a marring. of the Catholic Church because of they.

had like you know uh I don't know if. it's are pastors in the Catholic church. as well. Yeah, we'll talk about a priest. can be a pastor of a parish. >> Okay. So, they had like um you know, I. guess I'm trying to think of a way to. even say it. They had like, >> you know, the Catholic Church a lot of. times they've had like kind of they've. had like pedophilia or in the past in. the church, right? They've had that. happen over the years and it kind of. gives it like anytime like you if you. bring it up people like make a joke like. that happens a lot. >> I know. Yeah. >> And it's unfortunate.

>> Yeah. It's not fair. Why do you think. that um people who. uh have [clears throat] suffer from pit. pedophilia or are are labeled ped. pedophiles, why did so many of them kind. of end up in the church? >> Yeah, I I think that's a better way to. put it because uh why would someone. who's sexually attracted to young people. want to join uh the church and be a a a. priest or a minister in the church? Well, the answer is obvious in a way. because it gives them a lot of authority.

and access to young people. >> Got it. >> And so someone who has that. predelection, I understand perfectly why. they might be attracted. The same way, again, to be fair, if you look at um. sexual abuse of young people in our. public school system, in the Boy Scouts, in fact, wherever you find young people. and then others in authority, you're. going to find this problem of of. pedophilia. Most pedophilia of course. exists in families, not in you know the. Catholic Church, but in families. So. that's a better way to put it. I can I.

certainly see why someone might be. attracted to. >> the position because they're going to be. in a position of leadership. >> of authority and access to kids. What I. think is really false, the insinuation. that somehow the celibate priesthood. produces people who are attracted to. children. I think that's demonstrably. false. >> You do. Yeah. I want to hear more why. you think that. Well, because one thing. you can find u sexual abuse of children. way outside the the confines of the. Catholic Church. It's not something. that's unique to the celibate priesthood. and you find it again in families and in.

coaches and in boy scout troops etc etc. >> Yeah. A lot of spaces where there is. like you're saying where there's some. sort of a leadership or trusting. It's I. think what is more plausible is the. other way around that you see why. someone who's attracted to children in. this kind of perverse way would say oh. that's that's a good position for me to. get in is authority and access to kids. >> and also you know I feel it's so. important to point out the church. responded really well this was a. terrible crisis I mean there was there. was terrible sexual abuse of children.

within the church on the part of of. priests and the acknowledgement of that. was hugely important and the steps taken. there were very very strong steps taken. >> what are some of the steps that kind of. were kind of instituted um and I'm sorry. I don't know this. >> yeah no no it's good first like at the. seminary level so I was a seminary. recctor for a while which mean I was in. charge of a seminary and so when you're. screening people for the seminary a. major major preoccupation was to screen. for this kind of difficulty and we did. it through you know psychological exams.

and that sort of thing and then lots and. lots of instruction in the seminary. itself about this problem. There's also. a program that's now all the way through. the Catholic Church called the Vertus. program um that is educating people on a. very regular basis and very seriously. about um sexual abuse of children about. the dangers about grooming about all. these things. So I mean to every single. month I get uh in the email this this. Verus thing I have to there's a little.

article that I have to respond to and. answer questions about it but we all. have to go through an extensive program. around it. >> And what was some of the screening like. what was that like? That's interesting. >> Well like psychological screening. So. every kid come to the seminary has to go. through a battery of psychological. testing and interviews and so. >> like everybody that wants to be a member. of the seminary. >> Yeah. And then as as recctor, I had to. read every single one of them, you know, and then very attentive to people's, you. know, sexual history and that sort of. thing. >> And because you were sort of the person. that had to kind of be like their.

liaison, I guess, into the like getting. approved, I guess. >> Yeah. I I had I had to give the word. finally, could someone get into. seminary? So sometimes I had to say no, we're not accepting you. >> Would some of them feel at least this. was a safe place to admit to you what. had been they'd been thinking about or. what had been going on? Like. >> Well, you never know for sure. I mean. sometimes people can deceive you. >> Yeah, for sure. >> But you know the we also have. independent psychologists too looking at. all these guys. >> Got it. >> So there different ways but no we are. hyper attentive to this problem now in.

the church and I think it's fair to say. that that one of institutionally one of. the safest places for a young person is. the Catholic Church because we're so. attentive to the problem. we've done so. much to try to address it and then also. just deal with this problem of you know. if people really are guilty of this. crime that they they got to be out of. the priesthood and the problem was for. so long a time bishops and some of them. I think in in goodwill thinking it was. the best thing would send a guy for you. know prayer and maybe some psychological. treatment and then reassign him we now.

know that you can't do that helping no. and so that's you know we're we're well. aware of that. >> and what about today like if somebody uh. is is found guilty of of uh sexual. abuse, what happens? >> Yeah. I mean, if someone it's clearly. determined that the person is is guilty, we have a zero tolerance policy. They're. out of the, you know, the priesthood. Um, and another thing, too, is that when. accusations come forward, we take them. great with great seriousness and we. always bring the the uh secular.

authorities in. We make sure that the. the police know about these accusations. That was a problem too years ago as some. of it was not brought to the attention. of the police. like we'll handle it. within within the church, >> but it's a very high priority now. >> Understood. Um so before you go, uh and. thank you so much for your time today. because my pleasure. I loved it. >> Um there's a lot of like the pope spoke. out against like um artificial. intelligence, right? I think there's a. fear right now. This is my fear. Okay, I'll just tell you what it is.

>> I fear that they create these data. pools, right? They create the they they. create these artificial intelligence. these AIs. >> and then we go there for everything. right how do I feel why don't I feel. good today what's going on this becomes. your friend and then that also becomes. almost a place where you pray right. >> this is how I feel this is what's going. on this is what I'm scared of what do I. do and it all leads into some like. >> it leads into a machine telling us what. to do and not a higher power uh.

connection and that feels like. like almost. I don't know how if we start unevolving. I don't know what's going to happen but. that feels very very scary when you like. completely sever um what it means to. feel like it means to be human one of. the last one of the most important. things that make sense to you the AI. becomes the new god. >> is we we're not really understanding. we're assembling data and and that. really worries me a lot we're getting.

great at data but see understanding. means. seeing patterns, seeing connections, um. thinking an issue through. And we don't. do that a lot. We're we're so addicted. to the quick give me the quick data on. something. >> That can be useful, but it it undermines. our humanity. You're exactly right about. that. That our humanity is tied to our. capacity to understand. Yeah. Which. means to see patterns of meaning, right, and purpose. And the AI is not going to. give that to us. Um there's the economic. side too that you know jobs will be.

taken for sure by AI and so if work is. tied to human dignity that's really a. problem. The pope sees that. Um no I'm. glad he's talking about it because it's. um on everyone's mind and it is posing a. spiritual challenge for sure. >> Yeah because you hear just people say. ask chat. >> I know right. >> People say ask perplexity ask you know. they say ask this AI. >> How about think it through yourself. or. ask God. >> or ask God or or talk to another person. and have an argument about it or. something. >> Yeah. Um.

>> Yeah. Talk to another person like you. know because you can find God through. other people too a lot of times. >> I I love arguments. The problem is the. social media world's given rise to uh. insult and that's all we know how to do. anymore is just we throw insults and. we're snarky. >> Yeah. It's more snipers than it is like. wrestling. >> But an argument is Yeah. I mean, assembling data, putting it together in. a logical formula, entertaining the view. of your opponent, answering their. objections, that's an argument, right? And that's a beautiful thing. It's a. nonviolent way of adjudicating disputes. >> But if we've forgotten that, all we have.

left is you're an idiot and you know, I. hate you and your mother's an idiot, too. And that's all we're left with. And. that's deadly. >> Yeah. I just wonder like, oh, yeah. here. says the current Pope Leo I 14th is not. anti- AI but he argues that AI must. remain a human controlled tool and be. judged by whatever it protects. >> dignity. >> and be and be judged by whether it. protects human dignity, work, freedom, truth, and the vulnerable. He sees real. benefits in technology while warning. that efficiency, profit, and technical.

power should never become society's. highest values. >> Right? >> AI should serve people, not replace, manipulate, surveil, or dominate them. But if AI does these things, what. recourse does the pope have any recourse. really or is it just. >> No, he's a prophetic voice, I would say. But then also, I mean, he's he's he's. connected to this huge network of. influence. So, if all of us who are, you. know, under his authority, we say, "Yeah, that's important. We can all in. our own way, you know, implement that.". So, no, it does have an extraordinary.

power. That surveillance thing, you. mentioned it earlier. That always spooks. me because I know my phone is listening. to me and you know, I'll have a little. casual conversation and I'm scrolling. and and something I mention, some. product or whatever comes up and I. suppose it sees it as a positive. I see. it as deeply weird and and disturbing. >> Yeah. >> That stupid machine is listening to me. >> Yeah. You know, >> at least it's listening to you mostly do. good stuff, >> right? But. >> imagine the rest of us, dude. You're a. bishop. I mean, [laughter] hopefully. you're on the up and up. >> Yeah. for the most part. Uh but what if.

those things got more powerful and they. could then start manipulating you and. you know u it's spooky. >> It's very spooky. I mean what do you. think God would say about it? >> Well, do you pray to ask God for like. thoughts about that kind of stuff? Like. >> sure you know why. Yeah. But you know. the Bible knew about this in a way. See. the Tower of Babel story, you know, of. like let's all get together. We're going. to we're going to through our own. technical accomplishment, we're going to. build this tower up to heaven. That's a. beautiful symbol of this problem that. when we want to get so in control of.

things and we so manipulate, well, that. turns on us, that destroys us, you know. So, the scattering of the people there, the scattering of the languages, that's. a sign of of how this project has turned. on itself. It undermines itself. >> Uh, no, the Bible knew all about this. stuff in its own way. >> And now the the craziest part of that, even in its own moment, is that Babel is. now a language learning app, >> right? So, it's like I think six out of. four people or whatever people you say, "Hey, what's Babel?" And they say they.

don't even know the story, but they know. uh the language learning model. They. know the language learning app, which is. fine. I mean, it's a good app. >> They think Babel's related to Babylon, you know, so that that story was. probably written down not long after. they returned from the Babylonian exile, right, the Jews. And so, what Babylon. meant to them was this big dominating. political power. So, the Bible's always. been suspicious of big, you know, um, political and economic power. It's. dangerous. >> Yeah, >> it's dangerous. >> Do you feel like the Catholic Church is.

still as powerful as it once was? [sighs and gasps]. >> Well, it depends on how you define. power. I I think in many ways we're more. powerful. I mean, you could say years. ago it was more aligned with political. power and that sort of thing. And I. think we've learned the lesson there. that it's not a good road to go down. Um. but in terms of our global impact and. all that I mean look at the role the the. pope is the most recognized religious. leader in the world. I mean who's his. rival? The Daly Lama maybe. But there's. no one that has the stature of the pope. >> Oh yeah.

>> No one has the institutional range that. we have. >> So no we have an enormous power of. influence and all that but I I would say. stay away from from political power. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> it's scary. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, we should always. be in a kind of a prophetic stance. Doesn't mean you're always denunciating. power. Power is is not a bad thing in. itself. And the church can speak out. favorably of political power, but we. shouldn't be identified with it. You. know, >> does the church support specific. political parties or not really? >> No. We we always make a point of not.

doing that. I mean, so we kind of bend. over backwards in election season to say. here's what the church stands for. Here's what we feel strongly about, but. we never say therefore vote, you know, Democrat or vote Republican. >> Got it. >> We don't do that. Um before you go. today, there's an amazing thing I've. heard you talk about. It's called the. transcendent third. >> Oh yeah. >> Um and we had a guru on actually as. well. This uh gentleman named Guru Dev. and he talked about the same thing. Really? He talked about the same. pattern. Um can you tell me a little bit. about the transcendent third? >> I learned that from Aristotle when I was.

a young philosophy student. Right. So. the great Greek philosopher Aristotle. who was wise about so many things. Aristotle. But this was a friendship. He. said he was he studied friendship a lot. Aristotle he said a friendship will. flourish when it goes beyond the two. friends loving each other. So I like. you, you like me. Okay, great. But it'll. really flourish when together we fall in. love with a transcendent third. So it. could be our country, it could be art,

it could be philosophy, it could be God, right? That there's something in common. that we both love. And see, look, we're. we're drawn out of ourselves looking. upward together to that. >> Now, we draw closer together almost like. willy-nilly without even trying. We get. closer together. Early on, I mentioned. Fultton Sheen, right? About to be. beatified. >> He wrote a book back in the 50s. I still. recommend it to couples, engaged.

couples, called three to get married. And he made exactly this point. To get. married, you need a bride, you need a. groom, and you need Christ. He said, "And if you don't have Christ, the bride. and groom are are going to fall apart. But if together they fall in love with. the transcendent third with Christ, they'll stay together." And I think that. was there you go. That was true when. Aristotle said it. It was true when Fton. Sheen said it. And I think it's a great. principle for anyone in a relationship. if we're just infatuated with each. other. Did you see the movie, by the. way, Obsession this summer? Did you see.

it? It was this it was this um. >> cheaply made movie, right? It was. hugely. It's really good from a. spiritual standpoint. >> No, I didn't see this. Oh, I heard about. this, but I didn't see it. It's good. >> It's about this guy, right, who he loves. this girl and she's not reciprocating. and he's so frustrated. So, he gets his. shop, right? It's like a. >> like a magic thing or something. And he. it's this stick and if you break the. stick and you make your wish, it'll come. true. So, he goes, "Lord, not Lord, it's. just like make make me love her or make.

her love me more than anything in the. world." Breaks the stick. And at that. moment, it's very spooky. He's just. dropped her off. Right at that moment, she appears in the doorway. >> and he's like, "My dream have come. true." Well, I won't give the movie. away, but watch it because it's. spiritually very rich movie. What. happens when See, there's no. transcendent third. >> There's no transcendent. She just loves. me. Yeah, >> that's it. >> She will devour you and you you will.

destroy each other. >> Dead right. And it's a very spiritually. alert movie that way. >> Yeah. This um Yeah. I love I just love. the idea of that. I love the reminder of. that because it's also a reminder of to. go do something, right? To fall in love. with something else, right? Like to find. Yes. Together to find a friend. It's. just like find a friend and go do. something. Right. Right. Um he had this. uh this guru that we had and he was. saying like if you if you're two lines. and you want to get together, you're. going to meet but then you're also just.

going to keep go like. >> you know but if you also then you're. headed in the same direction then it's. just like kind of a force you know. >> It'll draw you together without you even. knowing it. It'll draw you together. automatically. >> Um can we say a prayer before you go? >> Yeah. Nice. >> Are you going to pray or you want me to. pray? >> Can you pray? >> Sure. >> Yeah. >> In the name of the Father and of the Son. and the Holy Spirit. Heavenly Father, we. thank you for this chance to be. together. We thank you for this. conversation. May it prove to be a. blessing to all those who uh who see it. and all those who hear it. Lord,

continue to bless Theo and his work and. bring him closer and closer to you. And. may all those who are listening, all. those who are watching also come closer. to you as the great goal of their life. And I pray through Christ our Lord. Amen. >> Amen. Man, >> weren't you baptized Catholic? >> Thank you. Uh I was in a Presbyterian. church. Presbyterian. Okay. Where did I. read Catholic or Catholic family or. >> somebody probably made something up. >> Okay. >> But um yeah, my my journey what it's.

been like is like most recently it's. like most recently is probably the most. that I've like the strongest. relationship I've had with God. I used. to believe I've always believed in God. I've always believed in God. I've always. felt that there's something greater than. me and thankfully, >> you know, but yeah, most recently I just. like I don't know. >> just more than ever I just there's no I. just don't have any doubt about it and I. just have just been praying a lot more, meditating. Um I'm in a cool Bible study. and so like oh. >> it just gives me a group of people to.

care about outside of myself. >> Yeah, that's good. >> So it's been fun because every everybody. will share what's going on with them and. then it gives me something to pray about. for my friends. So, it's like it's so. nice when I get to like think about this. person like, well, what could I pray. about for them, you know, and like and. how can I make it like kind of specific. or like, you know, it's almost like. you're like kind of designing it. yourself, you know, but it's just um. >> Yeah. No, stay with the Bible study. That's good. Stay with that. >> Yeah. It's been a and it's just been a. great group. >> Yeah. Good. So, here in Nashville. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Good. >> So, I just feel like Yeah. I don't know.

That's where I'm at. >> Stay with that. That's great. >> Yeah. And I don't want to pretend to be. somewhere that I'm not at either, you. know? I just want to be uh yeah, I just. want to just one day at a time. >> All right, >> that's it. Um, Bishop Robert Baron, thank you so much uh bless you for your. for your uh just your desire to uh get. out and spread the word and just share. the message and I always enjoy listening. to you and I'm so glad that we got to. hang out today. >> Yeah, me too. Thank you very much. >> Amen. Thank you. [music]. >> Now, I'm just floating on the breeze and.

I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I. [music] must be corner stone. Oh, but when I [music] reach that. ground, I'll share this piece of mind I. found. I can feel it in my [music]. bones, but it's going to take.