Amanda Knox | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #225

you know after your whole experience. through you know being incarcerated and. accusations and everything do you. where does do you have like who do you. who you blame the most do you feel like. [Music]. [Music].

Congrats wedding date isn't yet right. yeah I saw the meteor man who Nicole oh. you did yeah I really inspired me that. was a production that Chris manufactured. on a Sunday when I was the most. unsuspecting like you could tell I was. the most unsuspecting because I was in. my pajamas I was sewing a wizard cloak.

like I was down on that floor and to. like hear this like missile said sounded. like a missile to me that he like he. rigged up our entire house in our entire. backyard with you know secret speakers. and like lights so that when I came down. he like dug a fog machine like. underground underneath the meteorite so. that it was smoking yeah and it's it's. great like he had this thing really you. should ask Kristin honey but like he.

hadn't like manufactured this whole. thing for he was working on it with his. brother for a year. oh wow so like and then just one day he. was like today's the day and so he made. the rounds and like brought champagne to. my parents and then while I was like he. was running errands while I was sewing. my cloak and Disney running errands so. in my cloak it's like a like a deleted. scene from Shrek we go to plenty of.

Renaissance Fairs in fact we even out. Renaissance Faire or Renaissance Faire. once really yes and ran fairs I'm gonna. throw out the term because people don't. know I've been to a few I'm an economist. according to some I want to almost a. misdemeanor crimes and a few of them by. people call them Ren fairs right yes. okay good yeah I like to use that term. when I can sure yeah no I'm his brother. Chris's brother is a professional night.

mm-hmm. like he runs the Seattle nights where. they do jousting and Cory act like. choreographed fight scenes and they get. hired by Ren fairs to put on shows so. where they're doing the jousting in the. fighting and are using actual swords and. actual armor so whenever we go to a. Renaissance Faire we get hooked up with. their gear oh we can out yeah we can. read fair absolutely we we have 100%.

like full access Ren Faire and this one. time we went to so if so people are. wondering what's going on with Amanda. Knox she has backstage passes at a. Renaissance Faire yes. yeah I can tell you goings on yeah. recent engagement that kind of like puts. like it kind of puts a nice charm into. your life okay yes Oh God um yeah this. is the stuff that people don't know. about me people think they know a lot of. things about me but really I'm just a. nerd who likes to wear costumes to go to. Ren Faire. now right affairs I feel like Ren Faire.

is kind of you are they is their arch. rival kind of like a carnival like the. small town carny folk I feel like those. people probably I could see him kind of. getting into some fisticuffs at night or. something you know you know I know. there's some crossover I do know that. some performers who come to Renaissance. Fairs do perform at carnivals as well. like there was this one amazing woman. who trained a bunch of rats to like do.

acrobatics with her oh yeah which was. great and she was awesome and she goes. to the rent fairs and the carnivals. carnivals I wish I don't know I I feel. like carnivals just make me feel sick I. don't know I'm it's a little seed here. they get you hopped up on the sugar then. they can shake you up with the Machine. yeah it's very it's a lot more. adrenaline rush than I think I can. handle I just tend to feel a little. nauseated yeah.

so I don't go to carnivals very often so. Ren fairs yeah I would say yeah Ren. Faire is almost like a carnival - the. nausea yes there's more and more. playfulness because you're like you go. and you're not exactly in character but. you're playing pretend like everyone's. just kind of playing pretend with each. other and they're getting their hair. braided so they can look more. Renaissance EE and yeah like the idea is. to just sort of like let your inner. nerve. embrace itself yeah and like there is. you know these are some places where. like it's the one place that somebody. feels at home like the you know to be.

nerdy in the world like yeah you can be. a cool nerd in this world but not. everyone's a cool nerd some people are. just straight up nurse yeah. and like when you are allow yourself to. get into costume and just like just nerd. out and it's so sweet and so fun I love. it yeah it's kind of like you see people. like yeah you'll see like like a fair. maid in there you'll see like a lot of. wooden swords you you hear a lot about. corset gasm oh yeah oh really some big.

that's the place to let them on display. in Minnesota has a lot of big ones too I. know that yeah I've heard about them. I've never actually been to those before. but I think me and Chris are going to be. going with his brother and wife and. their best friend they all do run fair. stuff together I think we're gonna be. going down this big one in Texas in. November. I'm really excited apparently it is like. 10 times as big as any of them that our.

hearing in Washington Staton's day yeah. so it's just like a world took an. alternate reality to explore while. wearing dope costumes yeah yeah and. peaceful more peaceful times I think in. a way maybe I wanna but they had dragons. back then maybe wish dragons they really. do yeah that's it yeah I mean it depends. on them it depends on the Farex is still. affair like you know there's still gonna. be some fair food I don't know I find it. really exciting I think that I love.

watching his brother do his thing yeah I. like doing like they are swinging real. swords at each other and occasionally. like he'll get like a sharp elbow to to. the face and ha like his face cut open. and it's like this this is real yeah the. only difference is no one's actually. trying to kill each other right look. like they are and occasionally someone. gets hurt yeah yeah Ren fairs you know I. went when I was actually I went a couple. years ago I'll be honest you know I'm. trying to lie about it but I went a few. years ago and uh and it was uh what was.

it like oh it started raining so. suddenly like behind. seemed like everything kind of became. like the the world's kind of got mixed. because everybody's trying to stay dry. so you had a lot of people that weren't. like in you know in like Ren garb like. trying to get into the rent holes and. stuff got a little shelter became it was. a commodity well yeah especially because. a lot of these fairs are end up being.

sort of put out into these fields yeah. yeah all the water just accumulates in. these fields and like the Ren Faire that. I go to in Washington State very often. like you know it's there and then like. it has to disappear at the end of the. Ren Faire and then that that field gets. recycled into something else and I've. used it before to do a mud run to be. like an obstacle like mud course so. that's like the week after Ren Faire. it's mud it's not running like crazy I. wonder what the field thinks I wonder. the fields like who's on my back this.

week yeah I know thankfully the Ren. Faire they're pretty home yeah that it. sees mud freaks and then the mud Peaks. were like chugging beer and like getting. really dirty and that's also a great use. of random grass field yeah yeah that's. interesting yeah the one that I went to. was way out in the middle of nowhere and. we went when I was in school I was in. like a special class and so they would. take us out there and one time they're. like okay you have to dress up and I was. I didn't understand the concept. innocence fairs and I was on Peter Pan.

that were so it worked but it was uh you. were in the kind of right time period in. terms of fairy tale like that totally. they have they have like Robin Hood. themed renfe that's who I think I'm. meant to be was Robin who are not as. messed up you know. and my whole costume winning so it was. all just tie it was like a bunch of. stuff and then I wrap myself in fishing. twine right to hold it all together so. it was way bizarre I'm having trouble. visualizing this but I do you have.

pictures uh I think there's some. drawings or sketches okay but it was. definitely kind of a CG look they were. pretty much the same thing Robin Hood. and Peter Pan. yeah totally you're fine as long as you. have the tunic the green tunic you fit. in I think I got offended though when. people called me Robin Hood that was my. problem. oh you're. and that Roz's Peter yeah that's a. really yeah the way I interacted with. the world there you know kind of bought. I think a bad attitude as well it could. have been the twine to it was 30 pound.

test and it was really really tight you. know there are people walking around in. chain mail and like legit farmer out. there though like 90 pounds of crap in. 90 degree weather oh yeah I saw a guy. drinking wd-40 out there one day and I. was like Oh or me just so much Mead oh. yeah that's beer right well it's it's. very sugary I think it's more like wine. but like extremely sugary mmm it's like. honey it's like it tends to have like a.

honey flavor like a portent almost or. something yeah yeah um and people get. shit-faced on that meat uh that's um. lean to I think it's gotten a little bit. urban and sometimes when it's dark. enough things are getting strange thanks. for coming in thank you for having me I. really I I admit that I have I had not. heard your podcast before but my what. convinced me to come on is one of my.

best friends said that yours is the best. podcast ever and she has the biggest. crush on you. so case you want to like meet someone. who's also amazing she you know she. moved over all the way to Italy to like. be supportive of me and visit me in. prison like she's an incredible person. and she has a big fat crush on you oh. dang. and she's ex-mormon which I find that. ex-mormons are the best people ever yeah. yeah I've heard some things about I mean. they're uh yeah Mormons are really.

really unique when I like one time I was. walking through the Mormon place in Utah. like in Park City the big yeah the. temple yeah you're not a temple yeah but. the tabernacle and we had like they had. like 19 weddings going on like I was in. there like for ceremony just on accident. oh just like just like I accidentally. just would just walk in different paths. wow you got lucky I've been there before. multiple times and. I've never seen a wedding there I've. only I've only wished like I've walked. into that tabernacle and like I wish.

someone was singing here because they do. they're incredible singers they're. incredible musicians and they have a. really great sense of community they're. really supportive of each other and you. know then there's all the crazy doc Matt. but like yeah there's a lot of rough. don't move everything like I feel like. these days you hear more about the dogma. so much of everything than you do about. like the good stuff like the humanity. yes no that's my big issue is like I'm. constantly coming face to face with. different kinds of dogmas and they don't.

have to be established dogmas they can. be like the whole vilification narrative. is something that I find it's like well. we've decided that somebody is a monster. and now what and for me you know I feel. like my job now in the world it having. been mischaracterized as a as a monster. but also having like lived next to. people who have been imprisoned for. years for things that they actually did. do is be like well it's a lot more. complicated people are people and the. reason they do things are not for. monstrous reasons most of the time it's.

usually a human reason and we don't like. to I find that the greater society tends. to not want to embrace those human. qualities they want to have a scapegoat. they want to like hold someone up as a. symbol and say this is something that we. can hate do you think that it's a. greater society that because I I find. that it appears that way certainly like. through the news and through media for. sure but I person a person I find that.

it's not that do you know what I'm. talking about country sure sure sure. totally um and I'm not disagreeing with. you I'm just saying it's interesting. that yeah like as a as a mass as a. especially like if you like both like do. with the news and media it's like yes. it's like let's put a pin in this this. is you know we want yeah we need like an. angel we need a devil we need you know. we need figures you know to get people. excited and to get them engaged but then. when you go to humans it seems like.

there is more of a care about the people. a lot of times or there is there is more. empathy than you get through the nail. that's in the news yes I think that on a. person-to-person basis the instinct that. another human being is across from you. and your you automatically empathize. with them because they have eyes and. they have a nose and they have a mouth. and they look like you because they're a. human like that instinct kicks in but. there's another instinct that we all. have which is to stop thinking and you. know we're like we're god I think it was.

all right have you read a lot of. Jonathan hate mm-hmm I think you would. like him he talks about like the reasons. why people come into conflict with each. other despite the fact that you know. they're all good people and they're all. thinking people and feeling people and. one of the reasons is like you know. we're we're like 80% chimp and like 20%. bee and like the be part of us sort of. like latches on to a group and then just. agrees with everything in that group and.

other eyes is anyone outside of that and. so I I'm finding it interesting I don't. know what from your experience like how. many people have to come together into a. group before they start thinking like a. group as opposed to that like an. individual who sees another human being. across from them have you noticed that. like have you you know I've been amazed. at just like through podcasting and. stuff like the amount of people that are. good in the world that's what I find. just by going out and doing comedy shows. and having people come out to them but.

just good people like I've just been. amazed it's really kind of changed a. little bit of my perception sometimes I. think of of the of the world especially. like through the news you know in like. the mainstream media like I mean I feel. like that got so spoiled like it's. always bad news it's always bad and now. it's gotten to the point where I think. but I think most people do not believe. it anymore I think that most people. realize that it's bad and they know that. they're being that it's a trick or that.

it's a you know and I hate to say that. you know your experience there's. probably a lot of experiences over the. past 25 years that were like paramount. to probably people realizing that why. this is there's no value here of me. giving myself to this anymore because. they don't even care like what's what's. real like I have more empathy than this. news. so at a certain point I'm not if I keep. taking it in and believing it then I'm. I'm doing almost a disservice to my to. Who I am as a as a person yeah and I.

think that's a fair point I also think. though that we're sort of teaching. ourselves how to think less thoroughly. just by like the way that we're. consuming a lot of information a lot of. them a lot of information is coming our. way and like flashing across our eyes. yeah and like triggering an emotional. response and then that emotional. response happens then it's gone and we. stop thinking about it. and I think we are I don't know I get I.

get both sides of it and just you know. even from personal experience getting. both sides of it where on the one hand. we have we have such a hunger for like. depth and human connection and that's. why a lot of the media is responding to. that and trying to create these. difficult you know gray space narratives. and on the other hand we have also an. outrage culture and both of those are. real yeah and and like the the flippancy. with which the casualness with which we.

decide oh I hate that person or oh that. person's worthless or oh like it's just. it's so quick yeah is it two different. offices that almost you feel like. sometimes like there's a me that's that. like will react to something like. through through television or through. online and and and make a choice you. know pass a judgement and then there's a. me that's and that me almost doesn't. even seem real I feel like that's the. same me that would engage with like um. like flirting with women online and that.

sort of stuff sometimes where it's like. it feels almost like a video game of not. real life I wish I knew that what that. was like I'm I'm not. I mean it's it's fascinating like I. obviously can't date online so I haven't. had that experience but I've definitely. I mean lots of people our age are doing. online dating and are experiencing each. other in a very different way like it's. not like you run across them and you see. them in context in it in us in an.

element interacting with people what you. do is you read their profile and find. out what. their interests are and if you have the. same interest maybe that means that. you'll get along but I don't know you. can have completely different interests. and actually get along and that's when. the real connection yeah I think. connection I think overall it seems like. connection is just a thing that it's. almost like I wonder if it'll be like in. a museum at some point like it's funny I. was talking to my niece a couple of. months ago and I was talking about. imagination and she thought it was an.

app she hadn't heard of it. Oh sweetheart and she's very smart and. very capable and but it was just very. bizarre to me yeah is there an app for. that. yeah can i outsource I don't think I. heard that she's like I don't think my. mom lets me I think gets under parental. controls she said that she doesn't know. if I'm like no no no it's just inside of. you you know it's like this thing that. yeah let's do it right now that's not. tell your mom it's your own it's like. one of your few ask you know do you have.

like you know after your whole. experience through you know being. incarcerated and accusations and. everything do you where does do you have. like who do you who do you blame the. most do you feel like oh I think you. might be surprised that you know as much. as like the blame game was happening at. me I don't really think of it in terms.

of blame you know I don't I I had a long. time to like sit in my cell and wonder. why this was happening to me and you. know that's still a question that. bothers me like just why me why me of. all people in the world to have this. happen to them why I don't have a. sufficient answer for that but I don't. think that it's a specific person that I.

feel the need to blame I think human. beings fail to see each other all the. time. every day and it's not like it's. someone's fault you know I'm trying to. like one thing that I'm doing right now. is I'm trying to reach out to my. Secutor because you know the the easy. and automatic response to any of these. situations is to be like [ __ ] that guy. he's a bad dude and he did something bad.

to me right but I've never found that to. be a very satisfactory answer to why it. doesn't answer my why question uh yeah. you know like it gives you like kind of. a like a cane a little bit but it. doesn't really give you like a real. place to stay and kind of yeah and I. don't know if it's just my disposition. but I don't like lashing out does not. feel satisfactory like doesn't satisfy. me in any way possible I think I. remember like one time wanting to like.

punch a pillow once and I was just like. oh and it was like for some stupid thing. like maybe like traffic or something and. and I was like oh that's what everyone's. feeling all the time wanting to like. punch something like now I know what. that feels like. I don't know I I it was there like it. but I I guess I mean also like in a. sense of like was there a group that or. and not even a specific group or person. but was it more like the the country was.

it more the was it more the the media. what was it the news was it the the. police there that that was the thing. that you're like they it seems like they. were the ones that kept the ball rolling. because it seemed bizarre that you were. going through all this I think from you.

know I consider myself just kind of an. everyman it seemed like like you didn't. seem like somebody that would kill. someone to me easily and even with it. with the information from the case but. you but you'd probably displayed. behaviors where I was like oh if I think. you know she seems like someone that's a. you know unique or aloof or whimsical. and I could see that kind of fitting. like obviously a wild story. um but was it more the media that kept. you that do you think one of them. influenced more the fact that you were. you were stuck there for so long that. you had to go through all of this do you.

think I think that. it's like everything it's a lot more. complicated than it would be nice if it. worked because it's a combination of. factors it's a combination of the law. and like what what was legally a lot. what the police were legally allowed to. do with do to me were they illegally. allowed to psychologically torture me in. an interrogation room well yes and no. were were they are they human beings and.

is their instinct to feel confirmation. bias and to only see what they want to. see and sort of ignore disregard things. that don't go with their pre with their. prejudice like these these are all. factors that came into play and I can't. just pinpoint one reason why it happened. you know it's a lot of reasons do you. feel like that they that they started to. think that it was sexy that they had not. sexy but that it was you know there was. it was I think sex played a role but.

again not just for one person because. like there's the journalist who goes. here's this like here to fresh-faced. young women and and now it's sex on like. girl-on-girl crime and that's sexy and. then on the other hand there's a you. know some police officers or prosecutors. who are looking at a crime scene and. looking at a body and seeing that there. were signs of sexual violence and so. getting this like sexuality in their.

head and coming from a different culture. and a different time than I was and and. and having pre judgments about my own. sexuality or the way that my sexuality. even appeared to them because they. didn't even really know right what kind. of sexual person I was they just kind of. assumed things based on the fact that I. was an American girl right and so. there's a lot of that that goes into. play do you think that they start that. the that the police there started to. kind of get off on the attention that. they were getting at a certain point and. played into their own like almost like.

they would keep up things keep up the. narrative and not and you know not veer. off and not even one of your off because. it gave them it almost romanticized. their position that's what I'm trying to. say. I think it probably had more to do with. them wanting to protect or you know they. wanted to maintain that they were. professionals with integrity and when.

they're when their humanity came into. play when their prejudices came into. play when they made mistakes like many. of us admitting that they had made that. mistake like they can say like for. there's this cognitive dissonance where. they can say I'm a professional and I'm. acting with integrity and and in a. certain moment for some people like they. get on the defensive and they say that. therefore I cannot make a mistake like. how can you point to me and say like I'm.

a professional with an integrity how can. you tell me that I made a mistake and. it's like well I'm sorry you made a. mistake it's okay you made money yeah. yeah but like it became an issue a. benefit can't became the blame game like. very quickly it became well whose fault. is like this is a [ __ ] up situation. whose fault it is like whose fault is it. and under what light can we cast like. how [ __ ] up the situation is because. we start with this death of a young. woman yeah and there there's no escaping. that this is a tragedy and this is this.

is the story of young women throughout. history being targeted and abused and. and murdered because they're really. taken they've taken it's a matter of the. deck they have and and like and so we. start with that and then it becomes a. tragedy on top of a tragedy on top of a. tragedy and and how the focus gets. turned from one thing to another it's. being like someone that's obviously like.

it like you know is dramatic and like. like I could see you being in like drama. club in school and that's what totally. wasn't drama okay so was I so I've been. in some really bad plays one time I was. in I think I was in Sherlock Holmes oh. who are you uh I was uh. Watson right great role but I changed it. to Holmes I got real like Latino the. night of this performance and I didn't. tell anybody. wait. like what's happening holes and so we. put a whole spin like my own selfish.

spin on everything and and it ruined. everybody else the experience of the. night but for me it was uh you know I. just kind of took things we're a play. for yourself okay it really was even. though it was a lot of other people's uh. you know because so many people have. worked so hard for this night and then. you know it's just like me with a bad. accent kind of kind of kind of. cannibalized it shoot me was I gonna ask. you something that was good too she. seems like theater oh yeah so at a. certain point did it become a were you.

able to laugh at the fact it became like. a comedy of errors or did you never even. get to that place of of like or were you. always in a place of suffering whenever. you were locked up so mm-hmm. I mean it's again a complicated answer. to that question um I when I was in. prison I realized that like my body's. sort of reset itself to a new emotional. default setting where like I you know I.

was a type of person who used to wake up. in the morning and hear the birds saying. and be like yeah another day sweet and I. changed so that I woke up and I would. wake up and say another day another day. we're gonna get through this day and I'm. not gonna think about tomorrow because. if I have to think about getting through. tomorrow it's it's not I can't get. through today so I need to get through.

today it's almost like a recovery. program it's almost like some minutes. I'm like 12-step recovery you know they. say one day at a time that sort of thing. yeah I accept you don't know if you're. ever gonna recover yeah because like I. had no idea when I was ever going to get. out if I was ever gonna get out um did. it did it did it feel like it paused. your ability to be like a family member. and that was the hardest part. actually I had um a moment this past. weekend I'm I'm the oldest of four. sisters and my youngest sister is 11.

years younger than me and she just. turned 21 this week. and a couple things to know about that. it means that when I left she was under. ten years old. oh she was like nine years old when I. laugh she was funny too. yeah she was she was becoming a person. and um and I was gone by the time I got. back she was a young woman with her. badonkadonk and her nails and you know. like she was a young woman oh yeah they.

call and I I wasn't there I didn't get. to be there for her and be her big. sister as she was moving from child to. young woman and it hit me really hard. over the weekend when like my dad was. doing her 21 run because like my dad got. like a fan and he had an itinerary we're. gonna go to like the pool hall and then. we're gonna do karaoke and all the. things I do now this yeah exactly and so. like he got us all piled us all in a van.

and we all went out and I a lot of. things were going on in my mind but I. was thinking okay I didn't get a 21 run. I turned 21 in prison and that's fine. that's okay cuz I'm here for my sister. but then the reminder that like this. time had passed and she was a young one. like she was a legette young woman now. who go drinking with me now like I. missed I missed her yeah and she missed. me and I wasn't there and how did you.

keep in touch how are you able to. maintain a sense of sisterhood while you. were gone so I was writing letters every. day that was how I so what I would do. are you. that's pretty empowering I bet one thing. that you can do it's the one thing yeah. and that and sit-ups but like yeah I got. really good at sit-ups but you know I. was allowed to have like a ten pictures. with me in the cell and what I would do.

is I would have I would when I was. getting ready to do a letter I would. take the picture of the person that I. was going to be writing to and just. stare at it and and like it got to the. point where it's like a crazy person I. would like touch their face and like try. to feel like I was physically present. with them. and and then I would write a letter and. I would just like talk to the picture of. them and you know my little my little. assisters were a little too young to. know how to interact that way they in.

writing is not their medium I'm. constantly rewriting their som but like. I'm from the past and then like but my. the oldest of my younger sisters she had. to become the big sister all of a sudden. and she would write to me asking for. advice for how to be the big sister and. that was huge that meant a lot to me I. think even more than she knows the fact. that she just asked yeah because I. wasn't there yes she takes her in the.

role kind of yeah and she and she. recognized with me being gone that there. were things about being the big sister. that she didn't know that like that I. had been doing the whole time without. her realizing it and so so she grew to. have like an appreciation for me that. she didn't have before and but then you. know but then coming home what I found. is you know I thought that I was going. to go back to being the person I was and.

I was gonna have the life that I had. been stolen from for a while I was just. kind of kind of go back to doing that. that's not what happened so like she's. still kind of the big sister. and I'm kind of the weird alien person. you feel like a different do you still. feel like a sister do you feel like as a. stepmom do you feel like an aunt I'm. just wondering if there's a little bit. of not reality change because obviously. these are your sisters and this is your. family yes and uh but do you feel are. you still able to being in in prison and.

I say locked up I think it's pretty. though but um but does it make you feel. like did you lose can you still feel. their love as much as before do you. think it affected your ability to feel. like other people's so what it did is. before all of this happened I was very. very very close to my sisters and and in. in the kind and there's a closeness that. you get by being physically present with. someone like you just know their you.

know their little you know that they. chew with their mouths open some. when they're looking at their phones and. uni and you know like you know those. little ticks that people have the way. that they paced themselves through life. that you don't get when you are at a. distance and what I found is I haven't. yet been able to reclaim that kind of. knowledge of them hmm. and nor they of me because we've we. spent developmental periods of our life.

having very very different life. experiences and so we don't that we have. so much in common because we've gone. through a trauma that affected us all. but we all experienced it very. differently and I think that yeah each. person experienced it yeah so there's. there's a I mean that's the whole. tragedy of these issues is it's not just. the person at Ground Zero it's the whole. world around them that suddenly like it.

sucked into this black hole of suffering. like and it seems like the part that. really affect or sounds like one of the. things that affect you the most was that. you not even that people weren't there. for you that you couldn't be there for. other people that was the hardest one. Wow yeah. yeah and and you can't like you can't. replicate time lost with someone yeah. you can't like I can't go back and be. there the first time my little sister. you know snuck out and got drunk and.

needed someone to pick her up at a party. yeah like I I wasn't there. Yeah right that was my other little. sister and do they they must know how. much you care though I feel like I seem. like one of those people that it's easy. for like or they would get used to it. pretty quick Chris you could probably. know huh yeah yeah no they they do do. you feel like the is it part of it that. you don't know if you'll ever be able to. make it all the way up if that makes any.

sense coming yeah you're like I love. people but they're never gonna know how. much I love them and and it's hard to. really sometimes even show how much you. really care about somebody no matter if. you what you do as a human you know yeah. sometimes I do worry that. the way that I communicate love is. potentially alien to them like you know. and I'm pretty easygoing like oh I'll go.

and and like have them put the makeup on. me or do my hair or whatever like those. are nice ways that you can interact with. someone and just by spending time with. them doing something that they like like. my little sister loves makeup and so I. can I can sit there and be like do go. nuts like do Picasso on me like it's. great and I can do that and that's like. a great way to connect with her but I. I'm worried that they don't know how to. do that with me oh I see. like they don't read you different yeah. because like I'm I feel like they too.

are trying to reckon with the fact that. everywhere I go there's a doppelganger. of me in the room which is the foxy. Knoxy which is the trauma which is the. infamy that which is that experience. yeah well well yeah but all the thing or. whatever you want to call it I mean I. deal with a little bit of it myself like. even just as um you know as my career is. changed in the past year you know it's. become a bigger you know it's like I'm.

like my person whoever I am sometimes do. people is already there before I've got. there you know and there's nothing. sometimes it's like now I used to be. able to be myself completely one on one. and now it's like I I find I have to. like they already have a head start with. me in one direction positively or. negatively or even maybe just sideways. but they have a head start with our. interaction before I even get to them. yeah so I'm always either playing from. the hit a head or playing from behind.

and just trying to make things even most. of the time I try and yeah what I feel. like I'm trying to do and I feel bad. because like a lot of times what it. means is you kind of have to have a. conversation about like the idea of you. or the idea of me that's kind of sitting. there between you and you kind of have. to deconstruct that just in order to. reach them yeah because otherwise that. you also don't feel like you're on fair. ground and I feel bad for the other. person as well because they're like well. I know you you don't know me. who does that make me like you know I.

got socks so yeah like oh sorry I'm an. accused sorry to interrupt the episode I. got to tell you about this that they. have a lot of questions when you're. thinking about the internet and you are. wondering which of my online searches. does the government have a right to know. about and I definitely have thought. about that before first of all can dogs. do menthols that's one of mine obviously.

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join the over 500,000 people taking. charge of their mental health with the. help of an experienced professional. that's btter h ELP dot-com slash th EO. for 10% off your first month and now. back to our episode do are there things. that you miss like I find like you know. I was uh I was in I was in the hospital. for a little bit when I was young right. a couple weeks and I was sick and and I.

was scared right and my family was. scared but when I got out of there there. were still a couple things that like I. really missed about it even though it's. like a scary time or they're small. things that you miss about being. incarcerated that you didn't know but. like little things that people wouldn't. even think about I don't mean like you. know recess or anything if you guys had. that but I mean like because rarely do. you just someone get taken out of their. life for any reason I mean unless it's. getting abducted by aliens. or what happened to you or if somebody. falls in like a sinkhole or something. but there's very few opportunities to.

like kind of to get pull I mean just in. a moment get taken out of your life on. this total sod path the only thing that. I can think of is I wish I had more time. to read now and I had plenty of time to. read but honestly I would never I would. never ever wish imprisonment on anyone.

no it's I think sam harris asks a really. good question in his podcast where he. says like you know the worst experience. of your life you would never want to go. through it again but is there anything. that you're glad like is there is there. any part of you that is glad that you. went through it so like you wouldn't do. it again mmm I would never do that again. I would never wish it upon someone I.

think that the experience of being torn. from the world and subjected to. incredibly dehumanizing treatment in the. prison system definitely gave me. perspective of the different ways that. like human beings suffer hmm that I. didn't know just because I was you know. I was also 20 I didn't you know I didn't.

know who's even think who see who can. even really understand that at a large. level yeah so like I was suddenly. plunged into a very real world of human. suffering that I would again would never. wish upon anyone in like extreme ways. and but I do love reading and I don't. get to read as much as I would love. these days so that's literally be like.

the brightest star that I can offer you. right now because prison sucks and like. locked up sounds cool but it's not. cool yeah it's really not and I can what. I'm sorry to like be a debbie down or to. and like kind of burst the bubble or. anything that's like it's it's really. hard to put like a nice sheen on prison. when it's really just a lot of people. who are hurting and in pain and being. and and no one cares because they're. supposed to be in pain right and and and.

no one's getting better oh yeah I could. see that I could really really see that. I'm reading this book right now about. about I think it's called connections I. Joe on Hari he's at that book when we. tried to get a maybe have had them come. in and it's just talking about like they. talked about like a large woman a woman.

that suffers for with obesity or eating. disorders yeah and and that the. treatment for it is all these different. diets and stuff like that and then one. time they talk about whenever they sat. down with the woman she had gotten. molested or sexually abused at a certain. time when she was young. and that's when she started eating more. so she didn't look attractive to men. mm-hmm so that if she did look. attractive to men than it would never. happen again yeah this book it's really. been it to me it's been really neat but.

it's just amazing how like the. treatments that we have sometimes and I. think we're finding this out more now. because we're a little bit more. concerned with who people are on the. inside hypothetically in some ways then. it used to be probably you know 50 years. ago is just like all your bad you go to. jail you know we hang the keys over here. you know I think we're still migrating. out of that whole kind of old philosophy. yeah did you find like after being in. there in these environments did you find.

that did you feel like it was effective. did you feel like it was that the system. is effective what I noticed is that the. vast majority of people who were in. there whether they were guilty or not. the vast majority of them were guilty. all of them felt like victims like they. were being a me. like they were being abused by a greater. system that and that is like you know.

the justice system was being a bully. towards them like they you know they're. a lot of times impoverished a lot of. times dealing with trauma and mental. issues a lot of times you know there. aren't making great choices but they're. also saying for themselves well how many. great choices do I have like I'm human. garbage to you people and now you like. lock me up in this environment to make. me suffer even more [ __ ] you yeah like. that's a lot of things right and it. gives a whole nother chip on their. shoulder exactly and then they feel even. more justified to like break the rules.

cuz they're like you don't I was like. you guys like didn't play the cards out. neatly like it's not fair it's not fair. right and so like they're they're also. victims of the unfairness of the greater. structures that led them into the prison. environment and then it's like insult to. injury to be in the prison environment. and it's tough when you have so many. people and it's all a system it's very. bureaucratic and stuff and like how do. you at that point it's really hard to. get one-on-one attention it's hard to.

get really what you need it's almost. like a cattle oh is this too much feels. like that does it yeah yeah I know it's. what were the Kindle I cure conditions. like so I've never I've been only once. into a prison here in the US to visit I. was doing like a yoga behind bars I was. like trying to support this organization. called yoga behind bars which were these. women who were going into prisons and. trying to give people skills for like. dealing with trauma through meditation.

or through just like body movements. because a lot of our trauma is being. held in our bodies and we don't have. access to them and so they were trying. to give them access to their bodies in. order to experience it more positively. yeah that's cool y'all do yoga with. Adriene sometimes off of the internet. Adrian you have you ever seen it I have. yeah she's just one of the first people. that comes up when you do like yoga. instructions oh yeah it's good I don't. like it it's there's all different types. but anyway yeah so so this the the. conditions that that are compared to the.

US and the ones that you had in Italy. what are those. so I didn't have to wear a uniform most. of us just wore sweatpants because there. were limitations on what you could wear. but mostly we all just lived in. sweatpants 24/7 and another difference. for me and I think it again depends on. prison to prison but I was locked in my. cell for most of the day hmm. so you weren't there weren't like common. areas where people were you know working.

out or going to school we didn't have. those kind of facilities so you were you. were either trapped in your room or you. were you had like your hour of outside. time in this like concrete box and it. wasn't nice out there. no it was a concrete box so with a roof. on it or a toe it did not have a roof oh. thank goodness so I could see the Sun I. could see the sky would you do you find. yourself starting to like promise pray.

to the Sun like was there any like like. we did the Sun become like this. different friend that was out there I'm. just wondering ended on what side of the. prison you are on oh I'm in the sense. that like depending on if you're you're. yourself aced east or faced West the Sun. could be your best friend if you were in. the East because you got really nice. morning sunlight but if you lived in the. west side it became this excruciating. torture because like the Sun would come. in in the summer and just cook you and. like I I was it was a very happy day.

when I was moved on to the east were. there people that were friendly in there. yes and again everything is complicated. right so yeah you know these questions. are kind of based in some way like I'm. just trying to like yes so I'm trying to. give a scenario right like so there yeah. and trying to see how do you say how you. stayed human in like with what other. humans certainly so there are different.

kinds of relationships that you can. develop in a prison environment that are. resembling of friendly or friendship a. lot of times you try to develop some. kind of relationship like that with your. cellmate. you're trapped in a room with them I. mean you have to like problem-solve and. find solutions for how to live together. when you're two very very different. people who are living on edge. emotionally and sometimes that works and.

sometimes it doesn't depending upon a. lot of factors like what is your. background. what do you how do you like to spend. your time do you like a lot of people. inside will want to just watch TV all. day and watch soap operas and like play. cards great way to spend your time. wasn't the way that I like to spend my. time I spent my time reading and some do. they think you were a nerd or anything. like that well a lot of them it was a. little worse than that some of them felt. like I was better than them yeah because.

a lot of them were illiterate yeah so oh. yeah you sure book to some illiterate. people dude they're gonna think you're. Thomas Jefferson totally and like you're. showing off and like I had people who. were experiencing mental illness who. were very paranoid who like when I was. like writing letters or I was journaling. thought that I was writing about them. and because they couldn't read it they. were just convinced that it was about. them and I had someone like take my. journal and just rip it to shreds cuz. she was convinced that I was writing.

about her and so it's again it's like so. different than the real world because. you you're interacting with people who. are living like animals being treated. like animals that can just get plucked. up out of their cell and move is shipped. off to another prison at any moment so. like any time like any relationship that. you might establish is also kind of a. liability because you could also have. that relationship taken away from you at. any moment and so like you have to be.

careful about who you have a. relationship and why and usually it's a. utilitarian kind of relationship like oh. if I'm if I don't play cards with this. person in my cell they're going to get. mad at me and and and they're going to. gang up on me so I'm it's a it's good. for me to spend an hour of my day. playing cards with this person because I. was here he's yeah there's a lot of. keeping peace more so than like. camaraderie right. a lot of dislike mitt.

what's going on making sure that was. there any is there any like dating or. dating life where there women that were. attracted to you did you have to deal. with that kind of thing in prison yes. that's definitely a thing and all but. almost thinking that would be a luxury. you know I've never been like homosexual. I don't think anyway I mean I got caught. up on some drugs one time and what. happened what this guy to go to the. airport but it was um but uh you know so.

if you're wondering yeah well I'd never. hooked up with anyone but I did have. someone I have a Leica but even like. I've had friends that I like but did you. did you almost have somebody that you. loved in a way like because it was like. uh no I wasn't so lonely as that I mean. I was fortunate that I always had a. foothold outside of the prison which was. for me always the real world like I. never got was so alone that I felt like. prison was my world and it's very easy.

to get to that place so I had friends. and family who were constantly riding. with me and also like love and sex were. the last things on my mind at that point. like I could have continued a. relationship with my co-defendant who. was my boyfriend before everything came. out but like as soon as we got into that. prison environment and the stakes were. so high tyndall Ike every it seemed like. the only thing that mattered was like. trying to get the truth out the last. thing that I was thinking about was like. love and sex I felt very alone.

did part of this part too you died. almost a little bit like you they. disappear a little I just because that's. such a vibrant time for us in our lives. to be like just sexual and to be like. not curious but just to be alive mm-hmm. yeah so what I can say is that prior so. I was in prison for two years before I. was convicted and then I was in prison. another two years before I was acquitted. the first time and in the two years. leading up to my conviction I was.

entirely asexual and then my conviction. happened and I was like holy [ __ ] I've. just been sentenced to 26 years in. prison I guess I have to. reimagine my life as being in imprisoned. life and that's actually when I taught. myself how to masturbate I didn't know. how to masturbate before then and and. was at 23 probably 22 I was 22 yeah Wow. yeah so nobody taught you in high school.

or something I guess nobody gonna teach. you but I was a late bloomer. oh yeah honestly I was a late bloomer I. never really felt comfortable with my. own sexuality and and I never felt like. I was a sexual human being like a lot of. people comment about like oh foxy Knoxy. like you have this look you're like. super hyper sexual but what I don't know. if that kind of driver because I don't. know that many of the all the words that. are right but it's like what a total.

opposite then yeah yeah I was not I was. not like a sexual person in high school. I was a virgin until college and even. then I was like I had to learn what an. orgasm was like it wasn't like an. obvious thing for me and I didn't have. good sexual experiences until like after. a prison really I'm sure. yeah until I well no no there was. something before her fiance who's here.

he's really picked up the slack that's. what I heard it's true we do have a. really great sex life and actually we. were on the way over here my friend. Madison he was the biggest Pro yeah she. she was very nice really cool outgoing. woman yeah she's great and she sent me. this this one at one of your. conversations with a young woman named. Danielle I think who was a virgin and. then you're talking oh yeah well. yeah and then we were like oh my god. what is but if he asks you about sex and.

I was like well I guess I'll just tell. them everything you know cuz like. everyone like I've gotten me I've had. someone do like the really mean way of. asking me about the whole foxy Knoxy. thing which is to be like so are you a. dominatrix like is your kink to like. hurt people like what is your [ __ ]. thing like are you the kinkiest like are. you kinky and I'm like well first of all. you're making kinky people sound like. evil people and gay people are great. yeah I mean they're up in the Ren Faire.

you just have to ask the leather maker. for the other stuff but like I'm I'm. really boring I am not good at sex I you. know like so I mean I thought I was good. at it a little bit like kind of around. high school and then it's been a little. bit not downhill but it's been certainly. going off the edge of the hill since. really why I just don't like it makes me. real nervous I think a lot of times and. then it's a form of communication I have.

escaped yeah so I could see that making. me nervous yeah okay well you. communicate for a living yeah barely. barely like I don't know how I got this. job sometimes but I mean I'm happy to. have it I just um but yeah I don't I I. just can't imagine like what that would. be like cuz then you're in this whole. other world everybody's like oh you're. this sexual being and you're like were. you just like am I did your whole life. see him must have seemed like almost of. like a realloc a joke or something did.

it be like well it went what it ended up. becoming was it became whatever anybody. wanted it to become in order to fit the. narrative that they were pushing well in. order to make the money that they were. making and so and that continues to this. day where like someone decides that like. my existence only means this like Amanda. is a villain therefore every the. confirmation bias comes down again and. everything she does if it's if it's a. good thing that's a nice thing well. we're just going to ignore that and if.

it's something that I like anything. possible to like flip and like distort. and rip out of context to. to turn into the worst possible light. like they'll do that and that's that. continues to be used to this day so. there's this like constant I'm. constantly reminded of the The Avenues. people are the actions people are taking. to see another human being like you. asking me to sit down here across from. you and you talk to me about Ren Faire. like I feel like you're trying to see me. as a person and that's so refreshing and. and like I get why my friend has a crush.

on you and then like and like. communication it like yeah well. communication is sexy right like so and. it is a form of communication as a form. of sex and sex as a form of. communication so if you think of it that. way it should be easy. yeah but then like everything like the. but on the other flip side of it like it. is so so ugly when it doesn't matter who. you are or what you do or how even how. much you reach out to a human being like. they just shut down and there's a wall.

of hatred that that comes from being a. puppet in their eyes like you're just a. puppet you're just an object you're. you're an idea and and you you don't get. to be treated like an like a human being. well I don't know it's so weird I don't. know if this is just me no this is makes. a lot of big sense and it actually is. into something like the media did you so. wrong and in some ways the media did me. so right like I I think that one thing. that's important is and when you say. that there what do you mean by that I. mean that you can't put the media like a.

lot of people act like the media is this. like big one-eyed monster that like. stomps around the world and crushes. people with its might and it's not it's. like conglomeration of people who have. platforms right and have the ability to. analyze information or not and I think. that there was journalism that was. asking hard questions and in attempting. to unravel the like the the easy. narrative that was being pushed out.

there and then there were people who. were just like oh it's such an easy. quick buck to like do a salacious. headline and just repeat that headline. when someone else wrote over in Italy. and like I don't have to think about. it's just an easy it's an easy it's a. lot it's just yeah it's a financial. thing yeah there's no yeah there's not. even a human edge to it dude but I guess. so I was thinking of his name. like is it hard to now it's like I know. you have a podcast you have a platform. and you talking a lot about justice and. your podcast I want to get the name of.

it again I'll mention it at the. beginning but what is it again the truth. about true crime the truth about true. crime and true crime is I mean I watched. probably two episodes of something last. night you know and I don't even know. what it was but it's like dude I love it. you know if there's somebody if they. find some bones and they are this buried. treasure what do you love about it. count me I'm curious about this because. like I'm I was never a true crime person. until I became one the subject and so I. come at the true crime genre not as like.

a fan but as someone who understands the. human consequences of true crime and so. I'm always trying to unpack the the easy. narrative that is that surrounds a lot. of these crimes that's a good question. you have a no answer right before if so. don't forget this question do you feel. like then because so many people are so. obsessed with crime with true crime with. other people's really trauma it's almost. the worst experiences of people's lives.

that's that's the story right do you. feel almost like we needed someone and. not even an egotistical way do you ever. feel like we needed someone to go. through this gauntlet that you went. through to come out of it with your. perspective now because I've never even. heard someone say that I look at it from. this other perspective right because. that perspective is going could really. help change a lot of other people's the. way that we view and consume this stuff.

at such a such a like crazy rate mm-hm I. can feel like a little bit that I mean I. don't know that's kind of like a fait. question where it's like oh did this. need to happen like I don't know if it. needed to happen it did happen and I. find myself constantly up again like. having a perspective that doesn't match. up with the perspective that most people. have you know like when when Epstein. killed himself in prison a lot of.

people's like first sort of flippant. reaction to it was good. the [ __ ] like went after young. girls and like abused young girls and. that is all true he was a [ __ ]. but did he deserve to die in prison did. he deserve to was it is it our. responsibility now that he was in our. custody to like you know I I believe. that anyone should be allowed to kill. themselves anytime like that's that's a. different issue but like when he's in. our custody and we are responsible.

towards that person we should not be. flippant about someone killing. themselves when they are in our care. it's like that's for me like I was like. that's like someone else killing. themselves like it it's not something to. be flippant about right because you. saying it reflects on our ability to so. that a prison also is a place where. there should be care is that we kind of. if we yes absolutely like these are. people who are now at our mercy mmm like. that's that's the the reality of a.

prison environment is you are you have. put someone fully at the mercy of our. justice system in our society and we are. responsible for that person now and it's. not just like a good riddance like a lot. of people have that like attitude of. like good riddance through the way throw. away the key I hope he gets raped in. prison I hope that they you know kill. themselves and that's not what prison is. for and it's funny I think it's someone. was some of my thought was maybe the. well I thought that they would hopefully. find a way to learn from this guy sure.

yeah I mean that was originally the. intention of prison like before before. there was prison there was dungeons. where you were kept until you actually. had the punishment that you were. supposed to get which was a corporeal. pungent punishment you had your hand cut. off you were beaten you were killed that. was the punishment for a crime and then. people came along who were like that is. just brutal we need to understand that. human beings have souls because they. were religious and they have the. opportunity to have some kind of.

redemption but we have to kind of force. that Redemption on them so we're going. to remove them from society and put them. in a position of forced contemplation. and that was what the prison environment. was for but it was also like weirdly a. way of punishing people's souls instead. of their. so like the prison environment weirdly. the purpose of it was to kind of be a. soul-crushing experience for the sake of. redemption I don't know how successful.

it is that redeeming like redemption. does redemption come from being soul. crushed like in my experience no in my. experience most of the people who end up. in that soul-crushing environment just. end up hating society even more and. feeling motivated to like be angry at. society and so like it's the issue of. like what do we do with people who have. done wrong as a society is really really. complicated and has to address like how. human beings really react to external.

things being forced upon them and I. think the most people's reaction is just. [ __ ] those guys they're human garbage. yeah and and you know human garbage or. not they're human and they belong to our. society recyclables you're saying yeah. so yes been in there with them yeah yeah. yeah was it um was it tough Tate. probably show people how much you cared. while you were in there like if you're a. caring person I imagine you go into it.

would be tough probably because it would. be hard to show some people are so you. know some people have you know done so. many bad things are in so much shame or. just filled with hatred or suffering in. different ways that it would probably be. tough but sometimes to show people that. you cared even actually it's really easy. to show someone that you care in prison. I mean though in in prison or even. outside of prison I think the thing that. to show someone that you care is if. you're present with them right now. because right now is the only thing that.

matters it doesn't matter what happened. yesterday it matters what's happening. right now between you and me and I don't. care what you did yesterday can I help. you write a letter to your mom because. you can't write like I can do that I. don't care what you did right and that's. the way that I showed caring to people. is like I never asked them what crime. they did I didn't care it didn't matter. to me and it does matter in like the. greater scheme of things because like we. can't just act like crimes don't matter. right. of course but if we're talking about.

like having a human like a human. connection with another person all that. matters is right now and and that is. giving that person the opportunity to be. a better version of themselves right now. not tomorrow not yesterday just right. now and that's all that matters. with the platform that you have now is. it tough to use the do you ever feel. like confused or disjointed about using. media now because like realizing the.

power that it has you know after you. kind of went through a lot of you know. different pressure cookers of it or you. know it was kind of put upon you in a. lot of ways do you feel did it take some. time for you to say okay I'm gonna use. the same like airwaves and wavelengths. that kind of damaged me mm-hmm certainly. to fight my own fight for wood to me. kind of feels like justice sort of seems. to be yes very central to the whole. issue is the idea of justice does.

justice exist is just as something as a. construct that we've that we've created. and that we have to agree upon is just. as a consensus is just as something. Universal how do we rep how do we enact. justice in our world like these are all. questions and I'm grappling with. everyday and you know it wasn't so much. a question for me about the the ethical. Nisour knot of like being a media person. because again I don't think of media as.

this this monstrous entity it's it's a. collection of individuals and it's a. tool and you can use that tool for good. or you can use that tool for bad and I. think that I can use that tool for good. the question for me was what is that. going to cost me because every time I. put myself out there in the world it. comes with a cost. yeah there's a question like me being. here right now talking to you you know. it's not just a conversation it's an. opportunity for us to like share ideas.

with people right and how people react. to those ideas is one thing how they. react to us as human beings is another. and you know I was for a long time I was. hiding like I didn't want to have to be. answerable to other people's hatred and. and and judgement that wasn't coming. from a place of judging even me was it. was judging an idea of me that had been. created not of me and so like being in. constant conversation with foxy Knoxy is.

is difficult but I've realized that I do. have a different perspective that I. think is useful and at the very least is. in service of people who are suffering. who don't often get recognized as as. victims of a thing as victims of a. justice system and I try to give voice. to that I feel a responsibility. particularly because a lot of people who. go through these these issues nobody.

cares. a person could have spent 20 like there. are plenty of people I know who spent. like 20 plus years in prison and no one. cares yeah and for some reason they care. about me because I like have you know. I'm a girl I don't know like it's. whatever the reasons are that people get. so mad or so interested in me is an. opportunity for me to flip that around. and go but did you know that like. there's not only is there a human being.

in me but there's a whole world of. humanity that's behind the kind of. hatred that we just throw at people who. are accused of crimes and what can we do. about that so like I feel a. responsibility and I feel that media is. a very powerful tool that should be used. ethically and responsibly and I try to. do that am i successful and am i as. successful as the people who like write. really flippant headlines without doing. any research in order to just vilify the. next person no unfortunately not you. will be though you think that I really.

do I think you have such a unique and. special way of like being able to first. of all thank and talk at the same time. that's a massive skill and also your. skill no really is it I don't know like. I I saw you like I was um it really is. not my skill I mean I saw you. talking to Danielle divergent and you. were just kind of there and you were. present with her yeah and like listening. is thinking like listening is fee I. think thinking and feeling often get.

like separated out as if they're like. separate things but I think feelings are. information and if you're processing. your feelings your part you're thinking. you're processing information yeah and. it sounds like that's what you do with a. lot of people yeah I think I was good at. it in the beginning I think I'm still. okay with it I just have to get a little. bit more connected with myself I just. feel like kind of like lost connection a. little bit and just even in the past. like month or two out has been kind of. exhausted a little yeah there was I got. to kind of recharge my batteries and. stuff and even just thinking about. different things you know what's going. on with you I think just probably I.

think I've just been burnt out yeah yeah. it was just like doing so much stuff. that I just like I was basically kind of. living my dreams and I wasn't even I. couldn't even like feel I wasn't having. like any joy. almost I was like man I'm just you know. what like I kind of had that like this. whole summer. it has just been like nose to the. grindstone like trying to tell these. stories about vigilantism for this. season the podcast right and like on the. one hand I'm having incredible. conversations with people who are like. in real moments of their lives making.

decisions that take them out of the norm. like a guy who's a trucker who like goes. around and tries to expose child. predators on online and and a guy who. then puts on a mask and a cape and goes. out and like beats up people who are. bullying other people like these are. people who are taking action and their. and their vigilance and they're taking. action or making decisions and I'm. having these incredible emotional. conversations with them and then I go. back and I just like you have to just. plug and write and research and and and. just like get the work done and and it.

has been draining for me too. we have to do all the work that people. didn't do for that they didn't do for. you. probably - yeah and that's that's when. and that's that is satisfying to me. because it's like I know what people. didn't do for me yeah and I don't want. to make that mistake with someone else. like I know what I needed and like the. ability to offer that to someone else is. like so so satisfying and I'm sure you. have like incredible in conversations. with people that but then you kind of.

come away from them and you're like. where am I like I've just been like in. that other person's world and now I have. to get work done and I have to schedule. meetings and I have to like you know do. all of the technological work and and. like the emails the endless emails and. it feels like less meaningful than that. one thing I mean you got to get out. there like I've been telling myself I. need to go swing dancing more oh wow. yeah I mean you know I look I think it. that sounds like a nice thing this uh.

Christopher swing dancer now yes we are. we're legit what do you do though what. do I like to do well it was funny. because I like doing comedy and I've. always liked it and then recently it. just became a little bit it just became. like a little bit me like I felt like I. was on a conveyor belt of my own life. and I was just kind of going and I was. like kind of there at the controls kind. of but I wasn't really like involved. almost even though I was doing. everything yeah and so now I'm trying to.

take a little bit of a step back and uh. actually I got a job I'm going to do a. some work out of town for about a month. and a half and so it's gonna but it's. gonna keep me in one place and I'm just. gonna take a little bit of time Tomas a. little more time to myself. is it like a media kind of hour comedy. thing or is it like a construction job. it's a film actually it's gonna be a. movie yeah this guy this actor hit me up. personally just about a movie you know I. never really had any intentions of doing. anything like that mm-hmm.

but this guy like literally like three. people in the world maybe could have. asked me and I feel like this guy maybe. was one of them so I'm gonna try it out. and also I think part of me just needs a. new experience it's not even like a big. role I was gonna say I like it I need. something to kind of just just kind of. remind me that of what's going on you. know just a little change of pace but. also that like life can be different. like that's the other thing that I think. new experiences are so important about. is like we kind of all sort of dig our. own trench and then we forget that like. life could be a different way and like I.

always have this like weird little. fantasy in the back of my head of like. disappearing into like the mountains and. making cuckoo clocks yeah and that's. like my weird little fantasy is when I. feel like too stuck and I'm like I'm. just too stuck in this. back in life that I'm in like I'm like. or I could just go and like be a troll. in the mountains and make that could. also be my life I think when you look. back at your well how you when you.

originally got incarcerated do you see. how like like you don't seem like. somebody that would ever kill someone. you don't even seem like somebody that. would probably I could see you maybe. trying you know drawn up some fireflies. overnight honestly you know fireflies. you know what is that what are those. things like lightning bugs like jarring. them up I could see in the poor things. like sleep aw yeah it was an accident. you know you're gonna kill a couple of. them you know I'm saying you had all. good intentions you just wanted like a. little night like that you could carry. with you to the restroom I could see it. would be magical yes but do you see when.

people were like do you see like that. just but I could see how people would. look at you and think like oh maybe you. know she's whimsical er did you see. looking back like oh maybe I could see. were you able to even recognize like oh. I see how people looked at me and maybe. the face I'll wake or the may make or. the way I smile or my sense of humor or. what I think is is fun or and they could. you see how they transpose that or did. you think that they just it was mostly.

just malicious I mean I think that most. of it was some something that people. were projecting on to me and I was a. convenient canvas for that because. nobody knew who I was right like I was a. nobody and so that meant that I could be. in anybody and then once people decided. what that person was like having that be. corrected like you know yes you you see.

me right now I'm this is how I am and I. honestly feel like a lot of the negative. things that people have felt about me. have been a projection of their some. something some kind of like nightmarish. imagination that they have they've just. projected on to me because again it's. like a confirmation bias you see what. you want to see and if you want to see. like someone could look at me right now. and say oh I'm sitting here. I'm daring to sit here like talk talking.

to someone as if like I am NOT a [ __ ]. murderer and like me I'm just constant. like just my very like a lot of people. feel that my very existence is an. affront to Meredith's memory and that. like the very fact that people even know. my name and know that I exist is an. offense that I am that I am committing. against Meredith's family and so like. when my own just existence is a problem.

like anything can be a problem right so. Oh must be system is it sometimes a. battle to get going every day in some. ways like our is it like or just some. days it just kind of you kind of have. moments where it just you forget that. not forget but I never forget I don't. think I'll ever forget but my life is. not just what other people think of me. yeah fact the majority of my life is not. that the majority of my life is who I.

love and and and what what work I'm. doing because I love the work that I'm. doing it's the question of now what and. and the the beautiful thing about my. life right now is I'm asked that. question and I suppose that question. never fully went away even in prison I. was thinking well I guess this is my. life I didn't think this was going to be. in my life but how do I like how do I.

live my best life and so brave I don't. know I mean it's that or kill yourself. like that's it really. what did you like I just wonder. sometimes I guess a lot of us always I. guess here's a lot of people wonder if. they went to prison who they would be oh. sure. one thing okay here's something that's. like really sad I thought that I have. can like I feel like I'm such a right. I don't think so okay so okay I worry.

that I wouldn't be a great person if it. weren't for everything that I went. through like I would be an okay person. I've always been a nice person I've. always like rooted for the underdog and. I did you know I was you know doing. musicals and I would probably still be. going to run fairs but like I and that. makes you a good person I think it helps. a little yeah like you know before all. this happened I didn't know about what. poverty and mental illness looked like.

and how that affected people and I. didn't know what the justice system was. doing to people and I did never was on. my radar you never would have known I. never would have known and so like I. think that I would have lived a much. more clueless existence but I hope not I. hope that like I would have had other. experiences that would have allowed me. to grow it's hard to say though I hate. playing the what if game because on the. one hand like I do think about I wasn't. there and I wasn't there when my sister. turned like turned into a teenager and I.

wasn't there to see her like I wasn't. there to like go and get her training. bra with her I wasn't there and that. means that and I'm never gonna get that. back but on the other hand like I've I. got a crash course in humanity and I. feel like I've done a lot of hard work. to absorb meaning and compassion from. all of that and I'm proud of that and I. want to share that with people and I and.

I think that's a good thing yeah yeah it. seems um Hannah it's just it's such us. there's so much like I guess kind of. like forgiveness in your story sort of. or not forgiveness but just it's like. you didn't even kind of take that route. of like blame and yeah forgiveness and. I'm like well I don't even feel like. I've other like just your perception of. it all do you feel like do you relate to.

different characters now like villains. whenever you see stuff on television do. you relate to more like Jessica Rabbit. or Cruella de. she was trouble but she was also just. had you know Roger rabbit's back the. whole time yeah like sweet i i've been. compared to jessica rabbit before which. is hilarious to me but but from the I'm. not bad I'm just drawn that way kind of.

way and so people have used that on me. before I don't relate to karela de Ville. because I love animals right but get me. in a room with Cruella de Vil and I. think that I could uncover things about. her that that III kind of pride myself. on being willing to speak to anyone I. talk to anyone I've lived with people. who killed their own children so like I.

can I feel comfortable speaking to. someone and being willing to like be. present with them again like it's not. like I who you are right now is a. product of all of the things that came. before you but I'm interested in the. things that that's happening right now. and there could be something blossoming. right now that's like a humanitarian. almost I mean that's a thing I I just I. want I want to give everyone the. opportunity to be a human being and and.

to grow and and to be different and to. then what my expectation is going to be. I'm really open to that I'd and I don't. think that makes me gullible or or or. silly because I can tell when I've. definitely had encounters with people. who are very dangerous and who hurt me. and I've learned from those experiences. from allowing myself to open up to. people who were hurtful to me what makes. you hopeful I think which is something. that's very nice to have you know and.

someone has to be that mm-hmm. yeah and I think that everyone is sort. of motivated not out of like evil. intentions but out of a when people do. things that are wrong it's because they. misunderstand how what they're going to. do there they misunderstand where their. motivations are coming from and they. misunderstand their effect on people or. I guess. I mean there are some people who are. just [ __ ] like beating people up and. and raping people and killing people and. they know what they're doing but a lot.

of times they come from a place of. feeling entitled or justified and like. to unpack where they how they feel how. they got to that place of feeling. justified and entitled enough to an act. of violence on another human being is. yeah that's where we can solve things. that's where we could solve Italy. almost everything it feels like yeah it. feels like yes I'm fighting the RO yeah. where it's not enough for me to like. point out oh you did this because you. were feeling entitled like you're an.

entitled [ __ ] it's me I want to let. go and be like but how did you get that. right how do you get there yeah I don't. ask oh that's so interesting yeah it's. funny it's like um yeah the people. aren't the in the end of it all yet. people aren't the problem and it's it's. it's whatever has caused us just to. behave these ways is is is the problem. you know and yeah sometimes you wonder.

if it's defeatable or not but the only. thing that makes you feel good is. they're trying to fight is to try and. fight it yeah and and I think to try to. see it right because I think that a lot. of people don't want to like look that. far down because they feel like it's. justifying bad behavior but I don't. think understanding bad behavior means. you're justifying it interesting I I. think that yeah because I sometimes have. wondered what we've been speaking like. okay is she just trying to justify that. people behave badly like in these.

systems and stuff but now I want to see. what you're saying about having an. understanding of it because then if you. can you can help them understand it too. yeah cuz man imagine what it feels like. probably to have killed someone and not. even have any clue why yeah and then. that's how you're just totally yeah and. like I've talked to women I've talked to. women who killed their kids because they. were feeling postpartum depression and. they then they didn't have a good. support system around them and they just. felt like they they were have they had a. breakdown they had a mental breakdown of.

like I can't handle my own life and the. only thing that I know to. right now in this like I'm trapped in my. life is to put my baby in a garbage can. I can't like I can't think of anything. else to do and and that I've talked to. that person and she feels terrible for. what she did and she can never escape it. and she constantly feels like she's. falling in black holes and like and can. never get out of it but like you know I.

understand that she felt like how she. felt when she did that bad thing and. empowering people with understanding is. is uh there's there is something. empowering about that and empowering. them to like get out of that place. is also good like I think that right now. there's there's this kind of movement. for sort of like defining people as one. thing and then saying you are that thing. and you will be that thing forever and. like [ __ ] you and that's not how human. beings work but that's changing though I.

think like even did you see Joe Rogan. interview Bernie Sanders do you have oh. no I didn't see that no and whatever. thoughts your own politics are not you. know and I don't talk much about. politics but but it was just interesting. to see a long-form conversation with a. politician it just gave you a diff it. gave you way different ideas of who that. man was kind of as a person instead of. sound bites yes instead of sound bites. it was it was really fascinating I. thought that you think Nick yeah it was. great yeah they need more that he's done. it with Telsey got Gabbar to if every.

single candidate could do it I think. we'd be all be more informed yeah we. would be better off so I think yeah I. think especially through Pollak a past. podcasting and stuff that the the the. hope that you're talking about I think. it's growing mm-hmm you know I really. like there ya know talk about it a lot. on the I really think it's growing I. mean especially thing with Rogen and. talking to Bernie Sanders I think it's. gonna change the entire landscape of. like how people accept other how they.

learn who a person is yeah so I think. and you yeah you seem like you're gonna. be like like like a coat like a coat. like a operative like a black ops. professional on like you just so you're. very great at communicating with people. Thanks yeah it's a great skill I'm. sitting here the whole time wishing that. I was you instead of me just because. you're just better at talking and it's. like or it's just more organized what uh. I have this question for you so you are.

you haven't you've been inked you've. been engaged now and you guys have a how. does that go you guys had such the wild. engagement the media or landed mm-hmm a. meteor of love yes and uh which is. really cool kind of reminded me of like. chivalry and like oh it's I reminded me. when I was in junior high dude I had. acne bruh I mean I had a low my god I. had the most acne remember how I never. got laid in high school yeah smile and. someone like me would like bus it was.

just like pain I just had like those. like ones like the deep a deep pain it's. like it's like as deep as my shame like. that's how deep my acne was deep anger. that's a rock in your face it's so bad. but at that time I walked across the. basketball court in like I got on my. knee and I gave a rose to some girl like. you know and she had some real thighs on.

her brow but she was really she was. really beautiful when uh so anyway the. best of us have yeah like a Down. syndrome girl but um and no offense. anybody has Down syndrome either but um. but anyway it just kind of reminded me. of that it was like oh here's some nice. chivalry going on well the gesture right. like yes that somebody took time that he. that he thought in advance yeah what. what are some things that uh that. attracted you to your current fiancee oh. that's a great question thank you for.

asking well I know he cared enough to. come with you I don't think it's you. know I think yeah and I'm curious as to. like how are you were able to like yeah. I guess how someone like you like looks. how they accept like you know people. other people's care or how they notice. it you know mm-hmm well one of the. wonderful special things about Chris is. when I first met him he did not Google. me he didn't really know much about the. case. and actually maybe I should just give.

you our origin story do you want our. origin I'll take it yeah yeah after the. meteor I need a name I need like. superheroes began so our origin story is. that I was doing local arts. correspondence for a local newspaper. under a pseudonym around like 2015 and I. was I was doing arts correspondent so I. was going to plays writing reviews doing. all that kind of thing and I was given. this a debut novel by these two. novelists and I read it and it was.

hilarious and heartbreaking and I. laughed and I cried and was so smart. and so I wrote this rave review. submitted it to the paper and I was. gonna be the end of it except the very. next day I walked out of my apartment. building and across the street in like. the diner window was like a concert. poster before a book reading for this. book that I had just read and I was like. that's coinkidink like I never go out. but maybe I'll go to this book reading. so I did and when I got well you you.

feel susceptible to a poster for a book. reading yes I did and before remember. I'm a nerd yeah so no I wonder I wonder. who falls to set one of those posters. and now and so I went and what I. witnessed was these two guys one of them. is this like big bald military guy with. a lisp and his best friend who had like. stripes carved into his beard and like. Elton John t-shirt and like glasses and.

it was the most beautiful bromance I had. ever seen see that and I asked him for. an interview so they invited me over to. Chris's house and we did an interview. but that kind of devolved into drinking. scotch and watching Star Trek and like. meandering out into the like. neighborhood throughout the evening just. kind of like shenanigans and at the end. of that. Gavin his best friend this military guy. gave me this big bear hug and Chris.

reached out and was like and to shake my. hand and said we should be friends. mhm and you know that's a throwaway kind. of thing except like this came a month. after I was fully exonerated. and it was the first time I thought oh I. can make friends in the real world like. a real person and so they became like my. first friends after I was fully. exonerated and you know life went on and. a friendship will escalate.

yeah friendship will escalate and so. nine months later we we started hooking. up and dating and you know poor Chris. like he has to you know his relationship. has been with me but it's also kind of. been with that like doppelganger version. of me in the room like my trauma is an. ever-present part of my life little. anecdotes about like Oh have you seen. wall-e and I was like when did it come. out because I was probably you can't.

even play [ __ ] marry kill at all without. somebody being like do people say that. all the time all the time it's me Casey. Anthony and who's the other one in [ __ ]. marry kill it's another person and Jodi. arias but do people say things to you. all the time they're like oh man I. didn't even realize that I can't say. that like it must does that happen. sometimes you're not oh no I I am super. accommodating and have a sense of humor. about the whole thing I'm I'm not that. you're like oh right you know but like I.

I understand when people are in a space. where it's just like I can't laugh about. that I don't know I did have I did have. one comedian make a joke about me once. and it came at her just a really bad. time like it came on the heels of him. meeting me in a very different. environment he was actually interviewing. Chris about his book hmm and he didn't. know it was me and I just kind of. happened to be there I was like I was. doing some cross stitch in the you're.

like in the 1700 but it was like it was. a Super Mario cross stitch so Super. Mario cross stitched in the corner and. this is so like this guy doesn't really. notice me and it's only after the. interview after we left that he realized. it was me and you know six months go by. and my little sister for her birthday. wants to go out to see this. median and so we all go out we all get. dressed up like all the girls doing the.

girlie thing and going out to see this. comedian that she likes and the opener. for this comedian is this other guy who. met me six months ago but didn't realize. who I was and he starts out his bed with. you know you know how like you don't. know when there's like a famous person. in the room with you until after they've. left and then he goes on on the shtick. where he's like man you can't like leave. me in a room with a man and knock she'll. kill me with her knitting needles and it. was just not a good joke right like it.

was it wasn't a good joke but it was it. was also just it hurt because like on. the one hand my little sister was like. it's my little sister's birthday and. suddenly my name gets dropped like it's. suddenly everyone's like the focus is on. me and there's like Amanda is she gonna. be okay like they're talking about her. they're making jokes about her killing. people with knitting needles and so on. the one hand ups it upset me because it. took us out of like my sister's birthday. and on the other hand it upset me.

because it's like this guy met me and I. was like you didn't you I was just being. me I was doing Super Mario cross-stitch. in the corner and he felt like the joke. to make about that situation was she'll. kill me with knitting needles and it's. like that is so easy and so mean I don't. know it just it did it felt like you. know like I expect it when people don't. know me and haven't met me in person to. like make jokes at my expense. because they just don't think I'm a. human being and I wasn't expecting like.

the person who it would be like if you. went out and did a comedy thing after. like having this conversation and it was. like oh I you know I yeah you're. villains or yeah yeah well if you made a. joke about like you know about me. killing you in the room or something. like that's it's not a good joke like if. you want to make a joke like I I'm fine. with the people making jokes about me. but like big make them be good.

yeah yeah everyone will think I'm guilty. like and like the joke that I say around. everyone this is like you're not allowed. to die around me I don't care what you. did like I'm like if someone give that. guy a hymen maneuver because I can't do. one like I can't like deal with this. believe me even yeah you only give one. get out of jail in four years card I. guess so.

so you and christen see you guys have a. wedding date set yet yeah February 29th. which is leap day no and I know but even. better and this is like the best so like. we took so we took like the the the kind. of crystal of that first thing and we. were like and I was referencing a video. you guys don't know I was referencing a. video on YouTube that you can see of. their proposal yeah so Chris basically. made a meteorite fall and crash land in. my backyard and inside the meteorite.

wasn't just like a ring it was a broken. data crystal from the future. encyclopedia Galactica. that was like Wikipedia of our future. together and he was like wow I guess we. have a future together I guess that. means do I like ask you now I guess it's. really happening now will you marry me. and like that was like the the the game. was like oh the future says that I. proposed to you right now so I guess I. have to propose to you right now and so. what we've done is we've built a story.

around that where the data crystal came. rocketing back in time because us in the. future went to the Encyclopedia. Galactica and looked ourselves up and. baroque our time stream so our time. stream has been broken and now we we're. only hypothetical Amanda and Chris. getting married and unless everyone we. love comes together into one bubble. outside of space and time and knits our. time stream together then we don't exist.

anymore so it's still knitting them or. knitting it yeah wow that's cool yeah. it's uh it's really cute and it's just. yeah it's still um yeah it's like a lot. of. believe you know it's cool though we. like to I love to play yeah dancing is. playing getting dressed up in costumes. is playing you've always been like that. I've always loved to play and music is. playful like if you're singing and. playing music together that's play. because you can like you never know what.

the next person is gonna happen and you. just kind of like bounce off of them I. love play and I love kind of like. getting people out of their shells to. play with me and I think that if you. give people an excuse to put on a. costume they'll do it but they need an. excuse I don't need an excuse I'll put. on a costume at any time but like a lot. of the people I love need an excuse and. so it's not gonna be Halloween it's. gonna be February 29th it's gonna be a. wedding yeah wow it's beautiful. congratulations on on so much going on.

your life um you know I texted two that. got pain Lindsay do you know he is he. does yeah I love pain Lindsay he's great. yeah I was gonna try to connect you guys. I don't know if maybe if you have been. connecting him yes we ran into each. other at a true-crime convention cool of. course no I was just thinking a few. minutes ago I was like I wonder who. maybe if she was gonna you know have a. guess or or he's actually invited me to. be on one of his new podcasts so I think. it's supposed to I think everyone's.

supposed to be anonymous so maybe I just. ruined it oh no it's like. congratulations thanks so much for. coming in you have any other questions. Nick did some come in from the viewers. who recover it oh we have a couple. patreon but I was wondering like how. familiar you are with some of the really. big true crime stories like serial and. making a murder and if you see any like. parallels with your case in them or if. you have specific like you think they. did it or didn't do it those instances I. know love those didn't I yeah I'm aware. of both those cases so Adnan Syed and.

Brendan Dassey so I am good friends with. one of brendan dassey's attorneys who's. an expert in false confessions I think. that there's a flagrant abuse of his. rights he was he was forced to falsely. confess and that is the only evidence. they used to convict him it's obscene. that his. that his conviction wasn't overturned. obscene that he's in there it's obscene.

that he's in there and um you know. Steven Avery I is a the question is a. little more complicated and I don't know. the facts of his case as well but I know. I know also through my friend that. Brendan Dassey it's just ludicrous and. he needs to get out of prison now and. anything anyone can do to help matters. and like one of the things that I'm. trying to do to help in my own way is. just try to wait raise awareness of. false confessions and coercive. interrogation techniques and how police.

once again like in these environments. you know people think that if you make a. false confession or a false admission or. a false accusation like that it's coming. from you when in fact it's like the. police are authoring a narrative and you. have to just sign on and like they bully. you and psychologically torture you. until you can't take it anymore and. you're willing to sign on to anything. just to make it stop oh I can imagine. four or five hours of torture and that's. no it's so it's it's ya know like and.

Brendan Dassey was so young and he like. he was he was O'Brien are so. impressionable they like put him through. it for days and days and days it's just. it's ridiculous what happened to him. none Syed I think there is I signed. alongside a number of my exoneree. buddies we all signed a petition in. order to get his case relooked at so you. know like when you say that do you mean. that he is that you believe that he's. innocent or you just think that he. should be the tree looked at he deserves.

to have a new trial I don't think that. the evidence that was used to convict. him was sufficient to find guilt and you. know I I think that it's it's only fair. that someone is actually put through a. justice process based on evidence that. makes sense and it's only then that we. can all determine that I would love to. sit on a jury one day yeah but no one's. ever gonna put me on a jury like no.

one's ever gonna put me on a jury and I. would love to be on that jury maybe what. if you knit a nice disguise I bet you. here you are because yeah I may be a. good juror. you know I think you know probably a lot. of beat of a lot of questions probably. but I bet it would be good. Oh certainly and I mean and you know I. come from it from an experience but that. doesn't mean that I'm like biased. towards innocence or guilt or anything. like I what it what I am biased about is. like I know how [ __ ] up the system can. be Amanda Dufresne do you have anything.

else Johnny uh all the patreon we pretty. much answered but I just had one. question like what was your day like. when you found out that you were. reconvicted you were in the u.s. she's. just like roll over to a tax match feel. like [ __ ] right just curious. oh god the build-up to that was really. hard it wasn't like oh yeah there was I.

think the thing the more shocking moment. for me was actually when the Supreme. Court in Italy overturned my first. acquittal I was not expecting that and. so that was a phone call from my lawyer. to say to give me the bad news and to. let me know that I had to go through yet. another trial because it wasn't just. like you know an overturn of an. acquittal it means they sent me back to. be retried again and so I was retried. again in absentia.

they found me guilty and from and yeah. and so again I have that phone call with. my lawyer who tells me we're gonna fight. it but I didn't know what that meant. like I suddenly had to start thinking. about what extradition looked like and. how I was going to if Italy decided to. you know if the Supreme Court in Italy. was going to confirm that conviction how. I was going to turn myself in to the.

local authorities and make a case for at. the very least serving my time in the. u.s. so that my family wasn't such a. burden on my family I I was living yes a. lot of people like think you know four. years in prison but it was really eight. years of. of waiting to know if I was allowed to. live again yeah so Wow. what up her I mean just what a purgatory. for like your growth and for your.

humanity yeah my 20s were this yeah. and I'm only 32 now so it's weird like. I'm I'm weirdly very very young in the. real world which means that I'm like. stumbling around and trying to like. figure out what being a real a real. person is like when it's not much left. to be in a real person so yeah then in. other ways I think we might be on a. horizon of realizing the value of. humanity again in some ways and that's. what I hope a lot of times yeah well I.

love what you're doing because it sounds. like you're coming from this like. optimistic place of like if I just sit. with someone will will just be humans. together isn't that great did everyone. forget how cool that is. and like I love that that's that's a. that's a really really useful thing to. do yeah so we try our best you know. we've learned we learn as we go in here. you know yeah we definitely try our best. have you had thank you for saying that. yeah have you had any contact with.

Meredith's family this is another. question I get a lot of the answer to. that question is once again it's. complicated I've I've written and sent a. letter than many years back but what I. have what I have heard from their lawyer. and in general is that they are not in a. in a place to want to talk to them like. in the in these situations you have.

people who have gone through a terrible. trauma and they have an experience of me. that like just the very being of me is a. trigger for that trauma yeah might just. remind them of it and there's nothing. wrong with that or anything and so like. when it comes to the Kircher family I. firmly believe that like they have like. if I it's not my position to force. myself on them to be understood by them. if and when they want to have a. relationship with me I'm ready.

and I'm I'm I'm ready to answer every. hard question that they might have I do. think this is a this is a whole thing. about restaurateurs justice right it's. like coming to see how like how how a. crime Meredith's murder has impacted so. many people and like finding that common. ground and finding a reconciliation and. understanding but like you have to be. ready and willing to like come to the. table with that goal in mind and until.

that happens like I can't force myself. on them yeah it's funny a lot of times. in my own like issues and stuff if I'm. not like I want to do something I'm not. ready I'll pray for like willingness you. know yeah like I'll pray for like the. step before the capability you know it's. like just you know may God make me. willing to do this because I want to I'm. having trouble getting to you action. yeah that's the biggest like I think. that's the biggest challenges like a lot. of people like they could do it if only.

they could like bring themselves to do. it yeah you know did you uh did you have. faith you struggle with faith did that. come in here in your sentence at any. point like when you were by yourself or. when you were in prison. mmm so I am an atheist and no it's okay. everybody has their own experience with. I am very hopeful that I'll try my best. have faith you know okay. and yeah that's that's cool yeah I'm. soldiers yours is okay it's it's okay a.

little moan thoughts it's probably. somehow project him own stuff yeah I. wonder like what atheist like what eight. that word means to you because I I. clearly do a lot of clearly I guess. maybe not clearly I'm I do a lot of. self-reflection reflection I do a lot of.

meditation I do a lot of thinking about. my place in the world and my impact on. on people in the world and those are all. things that really they're really. important to me and one thing that's. also really important to me is like one. thing that's. real to me is that I can't rely on the. universe to like be good right right. like for me there is no like the. universe is good or bad it's not any of.

those things all it is is existence. existence is what it is it's neutral and. we happen to be conscious and we are we. have concepts of like what what makes. something good or bad like human. suffering bad bad for me bad for you bad. for everyone we know that that's bad. yeah but it's not because it's. inherently bad it's not because someone. decided or decreed that it was bad or. that the dogma decreed that it was bad. is just that's how we experience things.

right we know it's bad we know it's bad. and we don't want that to happen to. someone we wouldn't want it we wouldn't. wish it upon ourselves and like so when. I'm finding when I'm trying to find you. know guidance or or when I'm looking for. that willingness to do something it's. it's motivated with the understanding. that like the only thing that can make. the only thing I can do in my life small. 'no sand aloneness is try to like make.

connections with human beings and try to. bring try to like make as less suffering. as possible and as much like joy and. growth as possible and and i have to. find that in myself and I know that like. no one's riding me no one's like telling. me to do that it's really just me me in. my head alone figuring that out for. myself and that's a responsibility that. I have to take you know I feel. responsible because I'm aware of myself. right and being aware of myself is like.

the first thing that I have to do as a. conscious being yeah and it's still it's. a fight for good it's like we're on this. it's as equal there's no judgement from. the universe against us you're saying. and it's but we do know right from wrong. we do know how it feels anyway yeah and. on and on our human scale it's important. it's important but in the big grand. scheme of things it's not but for us it. is and like just because something in. the big grand scheme of things is. utterly meaningless doesn't mean that it.

isn't meaningful to us right now because. this is the level that we live on right. we don't live on cosmic levels right. right we don't live kind of yeah there's. not this eternal this it's right now. yeah right now well I think that one. thing that's dad I mean I certainly. agree that it's like yeah we I think. that good is infectious you know okay. yeah so it's like yeah like that it's a. battle yet it is a battle it's like I. can choose to battle for good or to not. you know I think one thing that I would.

push back on that. mmm-hmm is I don't like the term battle. okay because battle means that there's. an enemy and like I think that it's very. very easy to fall into this mindset when. you have an enemy that you then find a. target to to be the like the object of. your enemy whereas for me I look at it. as you're building something you're. creating something we're always creating. something and what are you creating what.

do you what do you put what energy are. you putting into it it's going to exist. in the world and you're creating it what. is it going to do and I will say this I. will my last move will be that you would. know that from personal experience. a lot better than I would how that you. know how when somebody when there's a. lot of you know energy that it can be. targeted at someone mm-hmm so yeah it's. like kind of like that blame or. forgiveness thing it's like I'm not even. that's not even like what I'm thinking. about I'm thinking about like what am i. putting out into the world and and what.

is its impact you have to drop it a. notion like what does that ripple effect. yeah so I think we I think we certainly. agree on that my last question is how. much did the whole that it all cost. it must I can't even imagine the cost of. all the attorneys and everything I don't. even I could not even tell you how much. it cost because it cost that much like I. my my what my family paid what I've had. to pay what I'm continuing to have to. pay and for something that's not even.

your fault no wow that's a lot of power. it's a lot of power to stand up in the. face of all those different things and. to you know to. you know be someone who still wants to. help others you know or store just once. I don't know it's impressive and it's. very interesting. it helps me yeah I mean like I can't say. that like me helping others doesn't help. me because right along the way I'm. finding meaning yeah like I'm having.

that connection and so as much as that. person is having that connection with me. I'm having that connection with that. person. tell me like 3 things that you really. love about Chris and then what we don't. know yeah because you're like taking. notes and I think it's very sweet that. he's just impatient and been here I. don't want to feel a part of it so so I. read things that are things that I love. about Chris yeah Chris is willing to.

confront what he's afraid of. um chris is a excellent communicator and. they're gonna say chef sorry well he. also is an excellent chef like yeah but. he's an excellent communication is. really important to me and I think that. like communication hasn't really been. one of those things that the grander. culture has instilled in in in boys it's. not something that like we hold up as.

something that's very important for. young men is to have like an emotional. intelligence that they are able to. communicate young girls are like from a. very young age we're taught to like get. up in each other's business and be like. oh do you have a crush on this guy well. why do you have a Christian that guy. like and that is like brute practicing. emotional intelligence and it's less so. something that young men are encouraged. to do but like he is very very. emotionally intelligent and very good at. communicating when like he understands.

that I experienced the world sometimes I. experience the world and I experience. emotions in a different way than he does. but he doesn't hold that against me he. understands I'm like I just experienced. the world as I do he experiences the. world as he does and we both appreciate. those differences like for instance a. really good example Chris looks at boobs. and he can't stop looking at boobs you. know like he just like looks at manic. he looks at like he looks at anything. that remotely resembles a boob and he's. kinda can't help himself like he just. kind of gets distracted and it's you.

know it's like so real and like it's. something that I like I don't have a. comparison it's not like I look at like. guys shoulders and go I'm so distracted. right now like I just don't experience. that but I appreciate that he's able to. communicate with me what that's like and. I can communicate something on the ad. right because otherwise guys are. sneaking around the mall trying to hide. behind a plan and yeah and you don't. deal with them and then that's it yeah. and like I kind of like now now that I'm. in on it. yeah like we're kind of in on it.

together and I'm like looking at that. and he's like yeah and I'm like okay so. I see you like I'll be over here knit in. a cloak I'm Amanda what's your middle. name. Marie Amanda Marie Knox thanks for being. here today and people can check out your. podcast the truth about true crimes. that's right. right and yeah thank you so much really. appreciate of course thank you yeah.

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