The Basement: Luke Caverns | How One Mistranslated Number Has Hidden Atlantis for Centuries

Today I'm talking with Luke Caverns, an. anthropologist and explorer who's. flagged over 100 archaeological sites. that aren't on any map. He's planning. the largest lidar scan of the Amazon. ever attempted. Oh, what is he trying to. see, Jeff Bezos naked? Not that Amazon, the Amazon jungle. That makes more. sense. Lidar fires laser pulses from. aircraft through the jungle canopy and. maps what's buried underneath. And over. the last few years, it's been revealing. megacities and ancient highways, a. civilization buried under the Amazon.

that nobody knew was there. Today we're. covering that, the Minoans of Crete as. Plato's Atlantis, and the Olmecs and. their jaguar priest cult. >> Yeah, cult based on cats, hot piss. He. also has a theory about what happened to. Alexander the Great's body that I hadn't. heard before. It's pretty interesting. As always, after the episode, I'll come. back in and do a breakdown of what we. covered, what I can't prove, and what I. can. Until then, let's go down to the. basement.

Luke, welcome to the basement. Hey, man. Thanks so much for having me here. This. is amazing. I'm so excited. I've got a. whole so much to talk to you about. We're going to go all over the ancient. world. I'm not a professional. It's chaos. Just bear with me. >> right. Um. So, I just want [snorts] to start with of. all the sites that you've looked at, what was the what was the one where the. one that sticks with you that goes that. makes you go that. is not natural. That's man-made. Do you.

have one favorite? One that's um. Now, you mean as far as like like a. natural formation that I think looks. man-made? Yes, or something that you saw. on lidar that maybe someone else didn't. see and you were like, "No, no, no, no, that's someone made that.". >> Yeah, absolutely. Um well, you know, there's um I'm I'm running a project. right now that I. I guess I'm announcing it right here for. the first time. Uh I don't have a name for the project I.

but it's a it's a lidar project that I. have been working on for about 3 years. now across the southeastern US and now. it just expanded to the Amazon which is. crazy. Um. so. I was given access a few years ago. to a lidar data set that a team put. together when they were trying to map. common impacts across the the United. States and anybody can get access to.

lidar of the US that the difficulty. there is. having a like a map that's been. processed and the information has been. condensed otherwise your computer will. just shut down it's crazy. Why are just. like giant raw images? >> Yeah, yeah, you know it's some it could. be like. hundreds of gigs of of data it'll just. shut down your your computer so it has. to be processed by a by a professional. >> who who really knows what they're doing. And so I was just lucky to be given um.

that sort of data set. And so. what they realized was while they were. looking for these common impacts they. were finding mound sites. And they weren't anthropologists didn't. know anything about ancient history but. they're like oh you know Luke I was. friends with one of them his name's. Chris. Um. he he sent it over to me and so I. started searching through it and and. there was a lot that I had to teach. myself about. um analyzing lidar and having to figure. out what's natural and what's not or.

what's modern and what's ancient that's. that can be a big thing. A lot of false. positives with like flood zones and. >> And and with dredging so they'll try to. clear up the sides of rivers and they'll. make what looks like just hundreds of. mounds strung together over time you you. start to realize like oh okay you know. these things are too sharp there's so. many of them together you know. So you learn how to process all that. all that image data and all in all I've. I've mapped at least like 82. archaeological sites.

in the United States. Probably a lot of. them probably so many of them are on. private property. that are not officially documented in. books or papers that I could find or. maps that I could find. Now that said. you know there's probably some there may. be some obscure papers out there that. are aware of some of these whatever. they're not pop popularly known. Some of them are massive man. I've. mapped sites that are way out in the. forest in Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas. That's not just.

single structures that are. 250 yards long. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, 250 yards long by 100 yards wide. and there's probably five or six of the. structures all together. Some of them. have. For anybody listening you can look up. something called the Hopewell Road which. look like these highways. Huge, right? >> Yeah, huge and. and I found structures that have those. in them and I have a I have a friend who. he's about my age and he's. more of like an open-minded.

archaeologist. and and more accepting to I guess like. outlaw archaeology which is kind of what. I do. You know now I'm working with. my team at Basecamp. They are providing. me going to be providing me and we've. already scanned like some sites near. Moundville. We discovered an ancient. site near Moundville on private property. just amazing stuff. And. so I'm working with them now but um. essentially what we do is.

all these sites that I have. mapped using USGS and charted. you know that's probably that resolution. is very very low and these guys can go. out there and scan something that's so. precise that it's down to like a golf. ball in resolution and then they can. build 3D models of of the ancient city. Is that with satellite lidar? Or is that. with on the. >> No, no, no, it's their lidar. It's it's. They They have these lidar drones. They've got like a full-on bus. They. brought it to my house a few weeks ago. It's cool. So, uh I haven't announced.

this at all. This is the first time I'm. talking about this. I've been working on. this for a long time. But essentially. what it what we're going to do is. rebuild the Mound Builder world. And uh. like all these cities that people aren't. aware of, I find it using USGS lidar. Then either. they go out there or if I can go with. them, I go with them. And we send a. drone up, map it. You know, it doesn't. matter what property it's on cuz it's. legal to map things with your drones. Um. and then we can reconstruct the ancient. city down to like a golf ball size.

resolution. And so I can have this huge. uh 3D model of the city and then I can. virtually rebuild it using AI. Now, you. have to get very particular and you have. to make sure it's historically accurate. according to the sources, but. we're going to start visually rebuilding. the Mound the Mound Builder world. And. we're going to do this with dozens of. sites. And Well, the Mound Builder. world, that spans thousands of years. Are you targeting. >> Thousands of years. No, not targeting. any one thing in particular. >> Just mounds? Mhm. Yeah, yeah, we're not.

targeting like like we were talking a. minute ago, we're not targeting Adena or. Hopewell or, you know, the. Moundville sites or anything like that. It's just the sites that I have found. and mapped. And so each one of them will. have to be researched within the context. of that of that uh site. So, yeah, so. that's that's what we're working on now. And then we've got another lidar project. that we're trying to get the permission. for eventually, which is going to be in. American Samoa. Uh the Polynesian world. is so untouched and lidar can completely.

change that. Um. and then we are. I'm I'm working with the Terra Incognita. Research Institute. It's a group that's put together by. couple of couple of archaeologists and. um they are uh. you know, it's it's sort of like. independent archaeology, you know, but. these guys are are credentialed and very. very well credentialed like full on, you. know, very professional academics and um. they're working on a on a project in the.

Amazon and uh I can't say too much about. this yet, but uh. if we can complete this project and we. can get the permits. myself I'm going to go down and document. it and essentially publish publicize it. The Basecamp team will be the one who. scans everything using their lidar. technology and then Terra Incognita. Research Institute, they're the ones who. will actually go out to the site, process the data. They're they're. they're the guys who get all the. permissions and everything. It'll be the largest lidar scan that's.

ever been done in the Amazon. I can't. wait for that. Yeah, ever been done. Ever been done? Mhm. And and we put. together a uh. I I don't know how much I can get into. this, but uh we're putting together a. proposal. of just. it's at least it's it's myself and. Basecamp. We've just played around with. this idea, but. of what it would cost to get the entire. Amazon lidar and how long it would take. >> Wow. Yeah, yeah. And they can they can. do it if if if if we can get the funding. to do it, it could be done. And so we're.

just putting that together just to throw. it out there to give people it won't. actually happen probably, but just to. give people an idea that it is possible. and you know, how much would it take for. that to be possible. But if this goes. through with Terra Incognita Research. Institute. and Basecamp and myself, it'll be the. largest lidar scan ever done in the. Amazon. I can't wait for that. Um. you come from a long line of treasure. hunters. cattle rustlers outlaws. When did you. realize that you were carrying on the. family tradition in a method using.

methodology? >> [snorts]. >> Not so much a pirate, you're actually a. scientist. >> No, no, yeah, yeah, I'm not stealing. anything anymore, but uh. >> [laughter]. >> Um. >> I first heard you talking about cattle. rustling, I'm like, "Does he know that. means stealing?". Yeah, they they were they were uh they. did a You know, some of those guys did a. little bit of both, right? Like you. would your day job would be cattle. driving, your night job would be cattle. rustling, you know? So, there I got and. and and treasure hunting, which actually. means looting and all that good stuff.

>> Yep. Um. You know, so it all it started. uh my love for anthropology began when. um. actually listening to my other grandpa, my my my uh my mom's dad, he was a. pastor and a missionary, and he loved. the ancient world. And I would be, you. know, they would drag me to their like. down-home East Texas little church, and. I'd listen to my grandpa. uh preach.

And they would have these old Bibles. And at the front and the back of the. Bibles would be these watercolor. paintings of like, you know, the some. ancient Mesopotamian city. Sometimes it. would be Egypt or something like that. And there might be a little map there, and it's all kind of watercolored and. very sort of romantic-looking. And. during the whole time that I would. listen to the sermon, still to this day my favorite thing if I. listen to a sermon is is when they. actually talk about the ancient biblical. world, and you get to sort of hear what. that would have been like. And then, you. know, it always gets dragged off into.

something else, but the coolest part is. the history. And so, I'd sit there. looking at the maps, I'd look at the. watercolor paintings and stuff, and I. would just every Sunday I would just. imagine, you know, what did ancient What. were ancient times like? What were. ancient times like? And. over over time, I. began becoming dissatisfied with the way. a lot of sermons would be told, not my. grandfather, but like, you know, going. to church with my parents or something. And I would be like, "Well, you know, I. wish that they would actually tell us. more about what was life like for those.

guys?" What were they telling you that. you were uncomfortable with? Just just. the reality. >> know, it yeah, a lot of sermons in. church into becoming like a a. motivational speech about like, you. know, let me let me take this one verse. and extrapolate it on a way and pull it. totally out of its ancient context to. make it relevant to you. It's like, you. know, the Bible's a masterfully written. and put together book. You can actually. just tell me that story and I will be. able to get the meaning out of it. Yes, you will. >> or if they wanted to be more profound,

educate the people that are in the. church on the context of the ancient. world. in the world that those people are. living in and teach us the Bible in the. way that they would have understood it. cuz that'll be much more profound than. you trying to extrapolate this one verse. and make it fit to me. You know, I. I don't care about about all that and it. never resonated with me. And so I. remember I talked to my parents and be. like, yeah, but you know, what was that. like? What was that like? And that was. And that was. the beginning of me being an. anthropologist, wanting to know.

what is that life like? >> Just day-to-day life. Being an ancient. person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are the. struggles that you live with? Cuz I I I. remember saying I had this what I. thought was a profound thought when I. was like a teenager and I was like I was. like, you know, the Bible's actually. like a horror story. All those people's lives were awful. You. know, no nobody, you know, it's like. I guess. >> Old Testament for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and and I mean you look at. the the disciples, the things that they. went through, the way that they all. ended up, the struggles that they had. They're all impoverished. It's a that's.

a really hard life. But that gets glossed over, you know, with the with the modern church and. everything. And so it was me really. trying to dig into the ancient world and. get a sense of what that was like. And. once that started happening, I started. realizing, well, wait, my whole. perception, the way that I'm being. taught about this isn't. isn't reflective of the ancient world. And so that was when my love for. wanting to know what the ancient world. was really like came from. The idea of wanting to be an explorer.

along with that cuz that could just go. into being an archaeologist or an. anthropologist or a historian, you know. Um. And so it was that coupled with my dad's. side of the family. going back to the 1890s, those guys are. are cattle cattle drivers. They were. they were um. you know the Parkers that are running. cattle up and down. So so they would. take cattle to the Parkers in San. Antonio. And so it's like West Texas to. San Antonio. That's where they were. operating. And um. you know, hearing [clears throat] their.

stories of of the search for. uh the the gold of of these lost mines. of Reagan Canyon and and um. this huge debacle that happens when. they're trying to find that gold and so. many of the Reagan brothers die and. Well, tell us that story real fast. What. do you mean? I love a debacle. >> so many um. there's not a lot that's known about. that, but this is a sort of a sort of a. synopsis. And a lot of it like I If you. go to especially here in the Southwest, like if you go to a used bookstore and. you find a book called The Sons of.

Coronado or lost lost Spanish treasure. or something like that, there will be a. chapter in there about my family. And um. so the Reagan family. Yeah, yeah. And so. essentially what happens is um. so they own these big ranches that are. on these plateaus above Reagan in and. around Reagan Canyon. And Reagan Canyon. back in the 1500s was one of the places. where the Spaniards would come through. as they're um you know, exploring the. American Southwest and in in the 1600s.

as well. And there would be bandits that would. sit up in Well, I guess all the way up. to the 1800s really. Uh there would be. bandits that would sit up in those um. sit up in those hillsides and they would. sack the Spanish caravans coming. through, kill everybody, drag the gold. up in up into the the crevices in in. these riversides or I should say little. canyon sides that's all dried up. And so. there's all these legends of of this. lost gold that's out there. Ever notice how every nicotine option. makes you choose between looking dumb,

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That's why I [music] like it. And so, you know, in your free time, you just. dream of of you know, they they probably. weren't wealthy. um even though they own this land, it's. still a tough life. They dream of of. have you know, having some big apartment. in San Antonio and having a a wagon or. something like that, you know. And so, um. so, they spend their time walking around. in the hills looking for gold and they. they. never really find anything. Well, there's this young boy named Bill Kelly.

who arrives on. uh arrives on a horse or maybe it was on. a mule. I think he's riding a mule. And. uh he was a he was an African-Mexican. boy who probably was a slave in Mexico. and he's he's fleeing to the United. States. And so, when he arrives, he. doesn't have anywhere to go. So, my. family just takes him in and he starts. working for the He starts working for my. family on their on their ranch. And he. is driving some of the cattle around to. new grazing spots. And it was actually.

him and one of the other brothers that. are out there, they see a crevice in the. mountainside and they go over and. explore it and it's it's this. open mine that had. Nobody knows when the mine was. Nobody. even knows where the mine is today. Um. Something I'd like to do is is go back. out there. There's two There's two. places where my family is. heavily involved in the American. Southwest. One is in New Mexico, one's. in West Texas. I fully mapped remapped. the one in New Mexico. You did? Yeah,

yeah. I can tell you that story. You. went out there, right? >> Mhm. Yeah, I've been out there three. times. And so, yeah, it's. On my grandfather's. Oh, I can tell you I'll tell you about. that in just a second. But so, staying. in the 1890s, they find that mine and. they pull out all the gold, but there's. no specifics of like, "Okay, well, what. was in there?" They just knew that it. was it was treasure, it was gold, it was. you know, wealth, whatever. But they. found gold? As the story goes. I have no idea where. this gold is today. But yes, they found. They found gold. They found They found. treasure. And so, essentially it.

launches into this huge Game of Thrones. of like, "Well, who really Who really. found it?" Bill Kelly tries to run away. with with some of the gold. Some of the. brothers try to run away with some of. the gold. Anyways, This old. >> This old story. Yeah, yeah. It's It's. this old story. And there's so many. different ways that the story is told. I've never read a book that actually. I've never read two books that tell the. story the same way. But essentially, only one of the brothers makes it makes. it out of this huge debacle. You don't.

even know if he actually made it with. some of the money. But And then And the. story just ends. But my family lineage. somehow disappears from West Texas and. reappears in East Texas and they're now. involved in oil. Interesting. >> exactly. So, that's it. So, there's this. there's this. >> so, of maybe like a decade or more, and all. of a sudden my family is in East Texas. and now they're involved in oil and very. wealthy and everything. Um. and so uh so, they're involved in in oil. in East Texas, and that would be my. great-grandfather.

His son, Leslie Reagan, has this idea of also wanting to be an. explorer and a treasure hunter and. everything. Now, I should say, just as a. preface, none of this money exists. today. I I nothing that I do is. bankrolled by my family lineage or. anything like that. But, um. so, my grandfather, Leslie Reagan, he. has this dream of also being an. explorer. And so. >> instead? Well, he was just he was just managing. the family oil business. Like, they had. they had a private airport and private.

jets and all kinds of crazy stuff. And. so, yeah, it's wild. >> Where's your trust fund? >> Um I know. I know. I wish I wish we had. I wish we had it. >> Beautiful. I wish we had any of this. today, cuz, man, I could All this lidar. stuff I'm talking to you about, I would. have done this years ago. >> But, uh. so, [snorts] he goes off to New Mexico. to try to find this legendary place. called seven Coronado's seven lost gold. mines, or the seven lost gold mines of. New Mexico. And this is written about in. I think it's True West magazine. They. did like three magazines on my on my.

grandpa. I should have brought this for. you. This would have been cool. Next. time, I'll bring you something, yeah. You can buy these on eBay for like $2. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Um and uh so, he he tries to go out. there to find these legendary lost gold. mines, and he wants to get into gold. mining in general. So, this police. officer that lives. in this town, I won't say what town, but. this police [snorts] officer officer. that lives in the town essentially. knocks on his trailer door. You know, they all lived in the chrome trailers. and everything. And uh and said, "Hey,

you know, I know you're out here looking. for such and such and such. I've been. doing this for years as well. You You. come with me.". We don't really know how long the time. period is between them beginning to look. for these lost gold mines and actually. finding them, but they do find them. >> [snorts]. >> And by 1955, 1956-ish, they. they found the gold mines, these old. Spanish gold mines, and expanded them. and turned it into. I shouldn't say the company name either, but um. well, in the '50s, this is somebody's. land, right? Did they This is my.

grandpa's land, yeah. Well, now he. bought it, yeah, yeah. But but it was. actually um. it was actually Sure. Yeah, so he buys. it from the state. He has like a claim. on it, but then but I think he actually. owned the land rather than just having a. claim. And uh so he expands this and turns this. into a full-blown gold mining company. And the way that it got its. Ah, this is tough cuz if I say the name, you can just go you can go find it, but. you know, and I don't want people like. walking around out there, but uh um.

one of the legends that that he would. tell my family was that at night. when they were camping out at the gold. mines, you could hear these bells. Like ringing like ding ding ding ding. And they're very very faint. And he. never actually found the source of the. bells, but what he thought it was was. that uh when the Spaniards were were. mining out these uh when in their gold. mines, they would have canaries, but. they would also have bells. And if the. bells are moving, you would know that. the air is is moving. You're getting.

You're getting clean air through the. mines. And um. so that's like one of the main legends. around around these mines. And I've been. out there, I've listened, I can't hear. the bells. Uh they're probably rusted. away since he opened them back up. But. so he found this place called the Seven. Lost Gold Mines of New Mexico or. Coronado's Seven Lost Gold Mines. Ultimately, he expanded it to. between 38 to 42 different mines. Wow. It was a it was a really really. profitable operation, and a um and a. smelter ended up exploding. One or two.

guys died during this, and this was in a. time this is 1962 or 63. Um this was in a time where like if you. were in. a business partner with somebody, especially out in the middle of nowhere, they could run away with the money and. never see it again, never see them. again. And so my grandfather's business. partner ran away with everything, and my. family was. financially destitute. I mean like. no money at all. Nothing. >> were dry? No, they weren't dry. They. they um they had to close in most of.

them. Uh there's a few of them that were. still open like. at least three of them are still open. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's three. >> Still mining? No, no, no, no, but but. the whole the portal is there. He closed. in everything. And he. at least in the 1960s when this was more. easy more easily done, uh he still. he still owned the land, I believe. He. still had a claim on it. Closed all the mines, and all of and he. made new maps. And none of the maps have.

the actual location of the property on. them. So he thought one day he'd be able. to build up the money to go back and and. reopen them, so he kept the claim on. them. And I don't think the claim was. relinquished until like 1989, so. uh you know, several years after he. passed. And he didn't mark the mines, I. guess, to. >> Not on the not on the maps, exactly, to. protect them. And so I inherited these. maps. 4 years ago. And I inherited everything. that that he had found. Oh, I should. also say that when they were down in. these mines, he would discover uh like.

Native American threads and pottery and. and you know, like textiles and stuff. And so he'd bring them back up, and then. when the wind would hit them, they would. disintegrate in his hands. So there's. pottery and things that he's found, >> [snorts]. >> uh and I found po- I found Native. American pottery when I was when I was. out there, too. They find all these. artifacts, and they would all. disintegrate. Of course, he didn't know. how to preserve them. You know, he. wasn't archaeologist. Um but he's. fascinated about about all this. And um. You were able to hold on to some of that. stuff? We have [clears throat] we have. them in boxes at my at my parents' house.

in North Carolina. Do you plan to show. those to the public at some point? [snorts]. No. No. No. This this wasn't. >> Yeah, this wasn't that kind of thing. This was like This is like those were. his personal treasures, you know? He was. he was in it for the gold money, right? And the and the excitement and the. adventure and I think the local fame, like he was known in Texas, right? Um and I guess the magazines, like he he. he liked that. So, this is treasure. hunting, yes, full-on treasure hunting. for. >> notoriety and wealth, right? And. Americans were crazy for these stories. then. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So,

uh. Yeah, I don't think he had any. intentions of like putting them in a. museum in Albuquerque or anything like. that. >> Right. So, now they just sit at my. parents' house. Um. and so, uh so, I got these maps and I. was just like I'd asked my dad, I said, "Dad, when's the last time somebody went. out here?" And he goes, "Well, you know. I. I don't I don't really know, but I bet. you I know I bet you I know the last. time that it happened." And he told me. he had a vague memory of sitting in a. car with his mom out in the middle of.

the desert while. his dad and some other guy that he was. with. got out of the car and they were gone. for like hours until until nightfall. And he just remembers sitting in this. car for hours with my mom. And he was. like, "I bet you I was there. And my dad. and some other guy went to go look at. the mine." So, he's like that I think he. told me that was the '70s. He said, "That was probably the last time that. that anybody was was ever really out. there.". And uh. and he didn't know where it was. He. didn't have the first My dad didn't have. the first idea. Now, my dad, I should.

say, he's a lover of history. Uh my dad was a. was a was a cave explorer like in when. he was probably about my age and and. younger than me uh in Missouri. He he. explored and mapped caves. He was like a. spelunker or speleologist, I should say, sort of uh amateur speleologist. Loves. America. >> Speleologist? >> Maybe so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh I think. so. And. so he has this sense of adventure in in. his own unique way that wasn't based on. like lost Spanish gold or anything like.

that. Loves American history. Just. obsessed. with American history. And. then my dad had to climb his way out of. this like financially destitute place. that my family ultimately ended up in. And then it was me, I was kind of more. able to inherit what my grandfather and. other grandfathers had. That that sort. of spirit that they had, but um. So anyways, I was obsessed with finding. the location [snorts] of these mines and. where they were at. So they're all drawn.

by hand by my grandfather. And of course. he's drawing it by walking around and. he's doing it by eye, right? So it's not. exact, not even close to being like. what you could see on on satellite. imagery. And so I had to spend. I had to spend the only thing I knew was. the city that they were based out of. So. they were based out of this one tiny. little town and I have this vast open. wilderness around it that I have to map. And so it took me 9 months Wow. >> the location on Google Earth.

And he didn't even have north-south. marked on the maps either. >> Took me 9 months. What did you find? Uh [clears throat] so. I knew that I found the location. It was. just like I could tell These are the. mines? You found the seven gold mines? Yeah, I did. Yeah, I found Yeah, so it's. like weird like he found them and then. he made sure that nobody would knew know. where location was. So then I found. them. It was cool. So. I took a friend of mine and. a couple months later we drove out to. New Mexico and uh.

you know, we cut a bunch of locks and. drove through a whole bunch of private. property straight out into the middle of. nowhere. And and we found we I confirmed. it on the on the ground. And I'm I'm. walking around out there and. uh picking up these these like old. bottles and cans that are out there. It. didn't look like anybody had been there. There's no, you know, from from from the. map and from Google Earth, you can see. where these paths are, where these old. cars would have been driving around.

there, but you can't see anything when. you're actually there in person. There's. no remnants left of the little roads and. but there's old like pocket whiskey. glasses and Could you feel it though? I. mean, maybe they were there for a while. >> yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, man. Um. >> to be thinking this. >> It's a It's Grandpa's whiskey? Well, I looked into that. So So there. was a I forget what the name of the. brand was, but I um one of my buddies. had a he's got Grok like satellite um. and so we would ask Grok a bunch of. questions and he would tell me about it. and we found this one really expensive.

pocket whiskey. Uh it was a bottom half. of the glass that was broken and it. still had the label the um. the brand name on it and so we looked it. up and it was a very expensive pocket. whiskey. It must have been his. And uh. so I kept every little thing I could put. in like a plastic bag. I kept all of it. with me. I even had like rusted cans. You know, just stuff that I know must. have been his. I would have done the. same thing. Just gathered all up. Yeah, [clears throat] yeah. And there's more. out there, too. There's so there's so. much more like uh the every time I've. gone back, I find more laying on the. ground. What about the mines? Did you.

get in there? I I'm I want to go back, but I want to. go back and do it properly. Um mines. >> No, no, no, no, no. Well, I. I don't want to admit to doing anything. illegal, but uh no, I want to go back in. with. >> Yeah. I want to go back in with. something that can monitor the air. quality because it only takes a couple. seconds to die from toxic air in a mine. >> did see the openings? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I went really close. to going down in one. I would I I went. probably 20 ft in one that was open. I.

mean, it There's one of them that's like. as open as this room is and it just goes. back forever. In fact, I saw uh a very. endangered species in one of them, the. black-footed black-footed ferret. They're They're critically endangered in. New Mexico. And uh there was one sitting. up on a ledge. It was looking at me and. I didn't realize it was there until it. started moving and it ran off and I was. like. that wasn't a rat. That wasn't a What. the What was that? And so I was like. going through species that live in. mammals that live in New Mexico and I. found a black-footed ferret and I was.

like, oh, I actually found where it. lived where one of them live. And. obviously cuz it's like 25 miles out in. the wilderness, right? It's not around. humans at all. So that was cool. But there's a main shaft opening. There's two other ones. That was kind of. like a periphery um mine that's way off. to the east. The main central area. uh there's two. So basically you would have like one. shaft that descends down at 45°. So it. descends down at 45°. It heads west and.

then there is a a refuge shaft that. comes straight up. That's probably like. 150 ft up. So it's just this hole. Like. you you walk out in the middle of desert. and there's just a massive 15-ft by. 15-ft wide hole and it's so deep that no. matter how close you get to the edge, you can never see the bottom and you can. feel the air like shooting out of the of. it. Like you can feel the air hitting. you as you as you walk up to it. >> no structure, platform, nothing. Just a. hole. >> Well, I threw a rock down there and you. can hear it go ding ding and it hits all.

this metal. So there's structures down. there. >> Oh. And so my dad went and one of my. other family members um. must be must be like a I should say. cousin of mine but. a niece of my dad. She had five other. maps that we didn't have. And so we got. those from her and they were actually of. the the mine layouts. And one of And this was after I had been. to the sites. So I was now able to. actually see how the mines worked and.

interconnected with each other under the. ground. Who drew those maps? My my. grandfather. Yeah, so he was a. cartographer. He drew all of stuff. How. did Where did you find those? Those. would have been hard. >> She inherited them. Yeah, yeah. So like. two different, you know, my uncles and. my dad inherited some some of the maps. and and I think all the artifacts and. she. uh because her father was my dad's. brother, right? She ended up getting. some of the interior maps. So it was. kind of split up. So now. uh I have everything other than the. artifacts and my grandpa's gun,

everything is in my office. Like all the. maps, everything. Um I've got them all. like framed up and. Some people online, there I There's. sometimes there's photos of my office. that get post that I've posted and you. can see the maps. Um. But yeah, all drawn out by by my grandpa. and so much of it went unexplored. There. are these huge shafts and these are. diorite mines. So super They're probably. still stable. I just have to know that the air quality. is good enough to go in them. But these. massive shafts that he shined a.

flashlight down and there was no end to. it. And so he has written on the map, it. would say uh. it would say. it would say dug out by Spanish, unmapped. Dug out by Spanish, unmapped. >> That's crazy. >> So they'd been there for hundreds of. years and he never he never got to. explore everything. And down at the. bottom of this 150-ft shaft, there's. this massive open room with these other. tunnels that take that that head off, but they had collapsed and he hadn't. explored them and you know, it's very. expensive to go in and like shore it all. up to make sure it's safe. And so it's.

just this massive sprawling mine complex. and I would very much like to. get lower down into into them to be able. to explore them, but I've got to do it. with the right equipment. It's expensive. to put together. Um but I definitely want to monitor air. quality. Now So what would be the bad. air down there? What would cause that? Oh. >> [sighs]. >> I don't know if I can explain it like a. geologist does, but essentially, you. know, if there's not enough ventilation, the oxygen will get sucked out of a room.

and it'll be. I guess you could say it's filled with. with toxic gas, but sometimes it's just. like a it's like when people um are. sitting in their car in a garage and the. garage fills with carbon monoxide and. then they die. You're out. You're gone. And um sometimes there's some there's. some gases that can build up in mines. that there's tons of people who. they're walking around in the desert. There's this big mine opening. They go, "Oh, what's. They fall asleep immediately. One. inhalation of that it it it interacts. with your brain. Basically shuts your.

brain off. You fall unconscious and. people just fall straight into a mine. Now, my grandpa, what he always wrote about. them was that they were clean-aired. mines. Like if you read the magazines, they're granite and diorite mines and so. something about that. makes them safer inherently. I'm I'm not. 100% certain on that, but uh. I just didn't I didn't want to take. their take the risk. So so but I am. going to go down in in them with like a. a full-on team and everything and we're.

going to explore them. Um but I was just. there a few months ago. And yeah, when. I'm there I. when I'm there it's one of those things. where it's like, "Ah, this is a special. place." Like this is this is. you know, there there there's probably. this one specific. place on the planet. There's. my family probably has more connection. to this one specific place than anybody. else on the planet ever has cuz it's out. in the middle of the wilderness, right? And uh and yeah, I I sit there and even. though I don't own the property, it's.

like spiritually I'm like, "Yeah, this. is my this is my place." You know, my. grandfather's dreams lived and died. here. And my grandpa thought about this. place for the rest of his life. Do you. think he'd be proud to know that you. took up the the mantle? Yeah, man. I just went on this uh. expedition in the in the Gila Wilderness. recently. And um and so uh I'll give up. a little bit of a. uh a teaser of where this is. Working hard and still watching debt eat. your paycheck? Every day you wait, that.

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That's pdsdebt.com/basement. pdsdebt.com/basement. The the mines are also in the Gila. Wilderness. And um. >> too much. Yeah, I won't. I won't. Um but. the mines are also in the Gila. Wilderness and um. And one of those magazines described him. as a Gila explorer. And it's cool. because it's it's our it's our country's. first uh designated wilderness area and. and uh so there's some history there and.

and um you know, I don't know if people. realize this, but like my connection to. my grandfather on my. >> in the Gila Wilderness. Yeah, my my. connection to my grandfather on my on my. dad's side is only through stories and. through like spirit. You know, um. You didn't know him. No, I never. actually never actually knew him. It's. all it's this this it's this shadow that. looms over my life. Does it drive you. crazy? Don't you wish you could just sit. with him and ask him a question? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was Yeah, I was. The night before I left I went on the.

expedition, I uh. I was listening to these old like 1950s. One of my favorite songs was Cattle. Call. And these old 1950s Western music. and I just imagined like I know that. this is what he was listening to and I'm. packing for the expedition and it just. like it was the first time I. it hit me this hard. And I was like. I went up and I sat on the edge of my. bed and my wife was like going to bed. and I just like started crying and I was. like I was like I just can't believe I. don't know him. I was like I was like I. was like I know him.

because he. I am so much like him. And in everything that I do, it's like. embedded in me. Like I look at my hands. You know, I. I probably have ticks and little weird. things that I do that are him. For sure you do. >> And um. But I don't But I don't know him in. person, you know? And that's kind of one. of those things is that I My dad, he. told me one time, he's like, "You know, maybe you'll be out in New Mexico or on. an expedition at some point and you'll. have a dream and you he'll visit you or. something." You believe that stuff? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I had an.

experience like that with my other. grandfather. We're. We're not getting to [snorts] my outline. because I need to hear this story. >> Yeah, so with my other grandfather, the one who was a missionary and ancient. historian, you know, loved the ancient. world. So, he passed away a couple years ago. and. he had had [snorts] Alzheimer's for. about 8 years and which is a quite a. long time to survive. It's a shame, actually. One of his. friends um. one of his friends got uh got diagnosed. with it about the same time he did and.

he was gone like a year. And um. but my grandma got on it and he was. taking all the right vitamins and stuff. and apparently there's a lot you can do. to kind of stave it off or maybe prevent. it, whatever. But um he He lived for a. long time. And uh. >> [clears throat]. >> there was one night, it was a Tuesday. night. I don't know why exactly I. remember that, but I woke up around 1:30. and I had just had this very profound. dream. where I was in a hospital room sitting.

in front of a bed just like I'm sitting. now. I'm on the like the left side of. the bed. My grandpa's right here. and I have my arms over him and I'm. crying and I'm telling him I love you. I'll miss you and I kissed him. And I'm. not like the only person I kiss is my. wife. Like I don't kiss my family. members, right? It was just like. not normal for me to to behave like that. in a dream. And I woke up at 1:00 a.m. and I remembered that and it was like I. just remembered that. Well, I'm at work. 9:00 a.m. I get a call that my grandpa. has been.

transferred from his nursing facility. into the hospital because. he died. His heart had stopped. And so. they went into his room, but by the time. they got into his room his heartbeat had. come back. He was alive. And but they. transferred him to the hospital so that. they could monitor him more closely. And. he was getting close He was basically. needed to be on hospice. And so. So I'm about to go to the Olmec realm. for 3 weeks. and I live like 7 hours away, like 7. hour drive, but I know I knew that if I.

didn't go see my grandpa I wasn't going. to see him when I got back from Mexico. >> [snorts]. >> So I drove. from I drove from San Antonio back home. and. went to go visit him and I was there. with my grandma and you know, there were. nurses and doctors and people coming in. and out and you know, my grandpa's there. and he's like sentient. I It was funny. He he could not remember anything in the. short term, but he could always talk. about his past and he knew who you were. Like he didn't forget you, but if you if. you showed him a picture it wouldn't. connect, but if you were there in person.

he would he would remember you. And. so [clears throat]. there's all these nurses and people. coming in and people wanting to like. talk to my grandma and talk to me and. mean, I never really got this like quiet. moment with him, but we're there for a. couple hours and. we're never left alone. So, we're about. to leave and uh I'm getting on the. elevator and I'm just like. nah, it's not enough of a goodbye. Like, I didn't get a moment with him. So, I. hand my grandma my jacket and I walk. back in there. and um. it's just it's just he and I there and. um.

uh. I haven't really really told the story. Um. you know, golly, man. I uh. you know, I just knew that like that was. my last moment with him, you know? And I was lucky that I got that. What. did you talk about? >> [snorts]. >> Uh. You are lucky you got that. Yeah. So. many of us don't. What did you talk about?

>> [snorts]. >> Uh I just told him like I just asked. him, I said uh. I said, "You remember all those Westerns. that you made me watch with you? Like, Gunsmoke." Gunsmoke was on the TV behind. me. He was like, "Yeah." And I said uh. I said, "You remember all the times. you'd like talk to me about the Bible. and the ancient world and everything?". He said, "Yeah.". And I said uh I was like looking him in. his eyes. I was like I was like, "I'm. never going to forget that. Like, it's. you know, so important to me.". >> [snorts]. >> And I said uh I said, "I love you." And.

he said, he said, "I love you, too." And. I said, "Do you know you're talking to?". And he looked at me and he said my full. name to me. And so, I knew he was there. with me. And uh. I leaned over him just like crying. You leaned over him crying just like you. did. >> Yeah. Yeah. I leaned over him I was on. the left side of the bed. And uh and I I kissed him and I said and. I told him. I said I said, "I'm going to miss you so. much." And I don't know how many people. actually. in their last moment have their loved.

one acknowledge the fact that they're. about to die. But, I just I. I just had to actually be real, you. know? Like. I think we try to be like subtle for. some reason, you know? And not just acknowledge the reality, but I just had to. I just had to. actually tell him goodbye. And so uh. And so I'm. >> Was he Was he aware of what was going. on? Yeah, yeah. He must have He must have. known that like I am actually saying. goodbye to you, you know? I know that. I'm not going to ever see you again.

And uh and so. um. And so I'm hugging him for like a long. time, like a really long time. By the. time I By the time I I lift my head up, I think that he had kind of fallen. asleep a little bit, but he was there. with him with me while I was talking to. him. And so I'm I walked out of the room. and um my grandma and I went went got. something to eat. And then by the time. we got home, she got a call from the. hospital that he passed away. And uh and. I always wondered if. if like that was the moment where he. just he could let go, you know? Like.

somebody actually told him that that. that I know you're dying and that I'm. going to miss you and that I loved you. and like acknowledge his existence, right? Like he knew that his existence. was witnessed and loved and appreciated. and he could. go. And I've spent a lot of time like. looking into that and and uh apparently. that's a that's a common phenomenon. Like sometimes when people when they. when they have an actual heart-to-heart. conversation in their last moments, it. makes them feel complete. They don't. feel the need to hold on anymore.

And uh. >> you're okay. They come to grips. [clears throat] with where they are. Yeah, so uh. So that was like a. that dream that I had a week earlier. When he died, his heart stopped at like. 1:00 in the morning. That's when I had. that dream and I woke up. Man, there's there's no. you know? I I I am a Christian. I'm like. an an Orthodox Christian, but even if I. was an atheist, that would change. everything for me. Like it was it was. that profound of of an experience. And um.

So I went to the Olmec world. I I I was. there for the week. I had to like plan. his funeral and everything and. yeah, it was tough. And then I went to I. went to Mexico and then right after that. I turned around and went to Peru. And um. the very [clears throat] first time I. ever saw Machu Picchu. was in [snorts] this coffee table book. called Lost Cities and it was a. collection that was produced by Barnes &. Noble. Produ- uh published and printed. in August 1997. That's when I was born. And uh.

And so my grandpa, he that was his book. He would always read that to me. And um. you know, gosh, from the. from the time I was a young kid, he. would he would flip through the pages. and what's funny is I still have that. book. I stole it from him when I was a. teenager. Um I still have that book and. if I go it's it's cool now flipping. through all those. I was maybe a year. ago I was going through it with my wife. and I was like, "I've been there now. I've been there now. I've been there. now." There's only a few places in that. book I haven't been now. But the one I. was always captivated by is is Machu. Picchu. And um.

>> [clears throat]. >> right where all these iconic photos are. taken. I'm standing there and uh. and I I remember thinking to myself, I'm. like, "This is the only place I've ever. been. other than other than Hawaii that is. actually looks like the photos." You go. to you go to Egypt, there's this massive. met- metropolitan city behind you. You're not in the desert, right? Um and. this is the only place I've ever been to. that actually looks and feels like all. the photos that you've seen. And lives.

up to the photo. It's actually way. better. That's why I always I'm always. like, "Yeah, if you can only go to like. Peru or Egypt, I'd go to Peru cuz it's. amazing.". Um. but uh. I'm standing there and I'm like, "Wow, this is really really amazing." I reach. in I reach in my pocket and pull out my. phone. and it's opened up to iCloud email. And. uh. I don't use iCloud email. I've got 4,500. emails I haven't opened up here that are. all just spam. And it's already selected a recipient.

and the little thing is blinking for me. to start typing. And the recipient was my grandfather. 43@yahoo.com. It was It was his It was his email. I'd never sent him an email. I don't But. it really really was his email. Somehow. it was in my phone. And it was like he would It was like he. was Yes, he was. >> touching me from the next world, you. know? And uh letting me know that he was. there. And I was just I was in the place. where the photo was taken that's printed.

in that book. >> Yeah. And um. yeah, it was profound profound, man. And. uh. you know. that's like all the confirmation I need. that there's something more beyond all. of this, you know? I totally agree. Um I heard you say that you were going. to go to grad school in Athens and. something in the job made you change. your mind. Yeah. [clears throat]. Uh. I was uh. You know what You know what's.

interesting is. me starting my. career. and being independent from like the very. beginning. I never worked for a. university or anything like that. All of my. flaws and missteps and. things that I said when I was. Yeah, I'm 28 now, but things I said when. I was 25 when I'm still trying to figure. out. It's all publicly documented. People get to watch me progress over. time. I feel like just now I'm kind of. getting it all together, right? Um.

and so you know, I would go through. these phases where. when I first [clears throat] started. this journey, I was so heavily. influenced by I saw you had a Graham. Hancock book around here somewhere. Sure. So heavily So heavily influenced. by Graham Hancock. That's as far as. actually reading, um. I'd say Fingerprints is probably like. the first book I read where I remember I. had this big old book in front of me and. my mom would be like, "What are you. reading?" And I was like I was like, "I'm reading something like a historical.

textbook." Cuz that you know the the. verbage is very up there for me at 16 or. something and and as far as reading and. really. putting. effort into diving into the ancient. world started with Graham Hancock and it. gave me this idea of like this wide open. ancient world of all these possibilities. and mysteries and the wonder of of these. ancient sites. That's the big word, possibilities. That's what he created. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I know that. there were people that came before him, but I don't think anybody did it as well.

as he did. And I may I may step on toes. by saying that, but I Graham Hancock. captured and presented things in a way. that was plausible. You know, it didn't. wasn't filled with like fantasy. You're. not reading these books necessarily and. and. >> telling a story. >> Yeah, exactly. And so it filled me with. this wonder of the ancient world, the. possibility. And so I devoured Graham Hancock's book. I even read Underworld, which is a great book. And.

>> [clears throat]. >> so from there. ancient history is kind of like a. like a pastime. It's like my side thing. where I'm just watching videos about it. on YouTube or reading about it. Never. really. never really thought I could actually do. this as a job. What was your main thing? [snorts]. Um marketing. [clears throat]. My mom is a creative. She was a she was. like a. Yeah, she [snorts] was like a. high-ranking. creative at a place called Brookshire's. grocery store. It's I don't even know. what to what to equivalent it to or out.

here, but um. Yeah, so she she was like creative. And. I think actually history and and the. creative world they kind of go together. like uh people who are historians are. more artistic than they are like numbers. oriented, right? Like a lot of people. who are numbers people, they don't. really. history doesn't really click with them. because history's not as defined or it's. not as neat, right? It's a story. History is a story. >> Yeah, exactly. And so, um. so yeah, history and and art went. together. But to be honest with you, I I. didn't I wasn't in love with marketing.

It was just kind of one of those things. where I would Google like, "How much. does such and such job pay?" You know, like, "Oh, okay." And uh so, I'm getting. my this marketing degree in in school. and. I don't love it. And everything that. they're teaching in school, I already. know is like, "Well, you know, I. actually use this other. I actually use this other platform, which I think is better, and I already. know how to do what you're teaching me. to do." And I just didn't care. And so, I'm flunking out all my classes. I've. got like a 1.7 GPA in junior college.

They're putting me on academic. suspension. I don't have the will to like actually. continue school. Uh and all the while, my my girlfriend at the time, who's my. wife now, she's like a pre-dental. student. So, she's like this. high-achieving She's crushing it. I'm. like way down here, right? And um. so, [clears throat]. I end up realizing like it all kind of. comes to a head and my and my dad is. like My dad's like, "I'm going to have. to let you go. Like, I can't I can't. financially help you anymore because. you're not even You're not even doing.

anything, you know?" And so, it all sort. of came to a head. >> Well, did you agree? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was I was like. deeply I was like deeply ashamed. Like, I I I told my dad, and what's funny is. like, a lot of times my dad, he he can. be like a lecturer. Like, he'll really. lay it on thick. And that that I was. funny, this time he didn't because he. knew He could tell how I just I was. like, I. I He did you a favor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, um. and so, I told my girlfriend at the. time, who's my wife now, I was like, I. was like, "I'm actually not going to get.

a degree or graduate college if I don't. do something that I like and that I'm. good at, even if it's just to get the. degree." So, I uh. so, the closest thing to it was uh was. anthropology. And so I um. I appealed to the dean and I'm about to. be on So first they put you on semester. suspension, then they put you on a year. So you got to take a year off of school. So they had put me on a year and I wrote. something to the dean and I was like I. was like listen, I don't even try because I feel like. cuz I'm just not invested in anything.

I want to pursue anthropology and I want. to study these ancient cultures and they. had like uh ancient cultures of uh of. Mexico and Central America. Cuz we're in. Texas, so Texas breeds Mesoamerican. archaeologists. There's tons of them. there. And uh and so the dean's like. "Okay. Uh well, I want you to write. this, you know, such such paper for me. and let me read it." And so and I had to. had all these guidelines, so I wrote it. in like one day and uh and I sent it.

back to him and it was it would the. paper was called uh. "How to how it was it was how 2 million. people disappeared overnight in the. Amazon." And it was basically like a. breakdown of every I had already known. of of how the Amazonian people were just. decimated over the course of of a couple. of centuries. You were writing good. YouTube titles back then. Yeah, I guess. [clears throat] so. >> that's a clicker. Yeah, long before I I. ever thought I'd be a YouTuber. When you. were writing that paper, did you feel it. coming through you? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. >> I'm supposed to do this. [snorts]. Oh absolutely. And um.

one of the things it was around that. time, I don't remember if it was before. or just after this, but my wife and I we. were in my college dorm room and we're. on my laptop and we watched the movie. The Lost City of Z. And. I closed my laptop after that and I my. life was never the same after I watched. that movie. It was just. it was like the final domino had been. pushed over and something about that. guy's journey, about you know, with the. the only reason he took on those. expeditions was to reclaim his family.

name. >> This is Percy Fawcett. >> And Percy Fawcett, yeah. >> Had you heard about him before. >> Yeah, I guess, but I but I hadn't read. David Grann's book or anything like. that. Didn't know he was such a badass. Yeah, I didn't really know too much. about him. I didn't really know anything. about the story. I just thought it was. cool. I actually know more about Hiram. Bingham, the discoverer of Machu Picchu, and and. and something about that guy's story, just kind of being an underdog and like. wanting to to to prove himself and. I guess he had this. he was a dreamer and he was reaching for.

something that that almost didn't exist, right? And um. and something about that story just. really resonated with me. And I was. never quite the same after I watched. that movie. So, it was either right. after or right before I switched my. major that that happened. And so. anyways, they he reluctantly let me into. the anthropology program and I just. smashed the last year and a half of. school. Yeah, I had like a 4.0. It was. like nothing. I mean, I didn't I didn't. even study. I did, but yeah, so.

I made it through school and then. um it was my last semester. Yeah. No, it was my second to last. semester. I uh. Were you [clears throat] thinking about. grad school at that point? Yeah, a. little bit a little bit. It was but it. was my second to last semester and I I. was on YouTube. >> [snorts]. >> and I saw an interview with uh with. Professor Dr. Ed Barnhart and I was like. I was like, "Oh, I really like this. guy." So, I had listened to his uh Lost.

Worlds of South America while. I was. maybe it was right before I switched my. major or it was right afterwards. But he. has this great lecture series called. Lost Worlds of South America produced by. The Great Courses. And I had only. listened to the audio of it. I think. later on I I listened I watched the. actual watched the the video. But it was. the way that he told the stories, the. way that he pulled you in and made it. personal, and then he would put his own. personal opinion in the in the episodes. And actually.

actually it was my only real exposure to. academics cuz I got my degree during the. whole like COVID thing. So, I never had. a personal relationship. My personal. relationship with a professor was. one-sided and it was this It was this. 24-lecture series thing on on South. America. And then eventually I found. Maya to Aztec, his other one that's on. Mesoamerica, and just devoured it both. of those. And actually that was my. exposure to academia. I did not know. And this may be the the way I am why I.

am the way I am. I did not know the. cold, sterile, jaded side of academia. I. was. I was never exposed to it. I was only. exposed to. you know, just kind of like doing school. virtually, which was cold in nature, but. but granted it would be that way. But. really the. my main exposure was through Ed. Barnhart, which was so. warm and romantic, right? And uh I still. listen to those lectures today just. because it kind of takes me back to this. like happy place.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um. >> [clears throat and cough]. >> so. I'm in my second-to-last semester and. and I start thinking about like, okay, you know, maybe um I don't think I'm. going to go work for a college because. you don't get to pick the projects you. work on. You're like an actor. You kind. of just take what take what comes to. you. You know, so if I So, if I'm. passionate about the Maya or the Inca, I'm actually probably going to be. working on like the Cahokia people in.

East Texas, which not my passions. And. and I don't want to be forced to do. stuff that's not my passion. So, I start. thinking about like, "Well, maybe I can get into YouTube.". And what's funny, I've never said this. before. Um. I used to love the Brave Wilderness. YouTube channel. Um. back during this time. I And uh you. know, it's made for kids, but it's cool. And I was like I was like, "You know. what? There needs to be like a. Coyote Peterson of history." And uh and. then my sister was watching Extinct or. Alive on Animal Planet, which is Forrest. Galante. She was like, "You have to.

watch this show." I'm watching the show. and I'm thinking, "There's not a history. version of this. There's not a like a. history guy that does this." And so one. day I was. I was kind of I started tinkering with. the idea my last semester in college. where I was like, "Well, maybe I should be, you know, the the. history Coyote Peterson or something. like that. Maybe it's me. You know, maybe all this stuff that I've been. influenced by, like maybe maybe that's. what I should do and I should tell. stories and go on adventures and film.

it." Of course I did not know what I was. getting into. Um this story sounds very. [clears throat] familiar, my friend. Yeah, but does Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> for a show that doesn't exist, so you. just created. >> Yeah, yeah. It's a And then you don't. realize how much it. >> My wife has a great saying. She She. always says to me, uh sometimes she'll. be like she'll be like, "It was you all. along." Like that thing you were looking. for, it was you all along. >> Mhm. And um She's a good one. So then what happens have to do with. this? >> So Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um. >> [snorts]. >> So I am. Well, Dr. Barnhart and I get very close.

I start working with him. I reach out to. him. I send him an email. He agrees to. have uh he agrees to have a breakfast. with me. What is that like when you when. [clears throat] he's like, "Let's get a. bite." Are you freaking out? Yeah, it. was pretty surreal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um and so we meet up and we we get. like tacos outside this this uh grocery. store. And yeah, it was it was great. And he had an hour for me and we ended. up being there for like 4 hours. And. That's how you knew. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And. Yeah, he he liked me and and um so a.

month and a half later I'm in Mexico. with him at Palenque. The very first. pyramid I see is the Temple of. Inscriptions at the city of Palenque and. I'm standing with Dr. Barnhart. And he. and I have been like thick as thieves. for. I don't know, like 4 years now since. then. He's a Would you consider him a. mentor? Yeah, he's probably my only mentor, I'd. say. yeah. >> watch your channel? Uh yeah, I guess so. I mean, I don't. know if he I don't know if he's actually. I mean, I guess when it has to stuff to. do with not not the Americas, he might. learn something. But, uh I'm just.

wondering if he ever pushes back on some. of your theories. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't think that he and I. agree on We can get into this later. I. don't think that he and I agree on what. the were-jaguars are when it comes to. the the Olmecs. I think he and I. disagree there. Uh that might be the only thing that we. disagree on. Um. But, yeah. But, yeah, he I mean, we're. two different people, you know, whatever. And but, it's fine. We don't. argue about it. Um but, yeah, we chat. almost every day. And he's become a very. close friend of mine now. And And so, I had this period where when I was with.

when I first started working with him, that I was like, oh wow, you know, I'm. working with this guy who's like a. world-class archaeologist, very. well-known. Um. And uh and so, I started becoming. exposed to other academics as well. And And academics that I still like and. still talk with today, but. maybe I should have just kept my. exposure mostly to Dr. Barnhart because. I started getting this idea in my head. of like. uh you know, being Dr. Luke might be.

kind of cool. Or maybe I should. specialize. Or maybe I should do this. and that. And I was. I was very in I was becoming very. influenced in my early days of my. channel of these highly credentialed. people around me and constantly talking. to them. There's like this hierarchy, right? It's like And I'm like appealing. to that. And it makes you want to become. equals to them, right? But, the more I did that, the further away I was getting from. this adventurer spirit that my. grandfather had and that my you know, my.

family had had. And that first. spirit I had from reaching from reading. like Fingerprints of the Gods, this idea. of like, I want to travel around the. world and see all these places. I want. to be I want to do all of it. I want to. be like Indiana Jones and go everywhere. and know all the stuff. So, um. So, I had I had this period of time. where I become really fascinated with. the Greeks again. When I watched Troy as. a kid, like like the ancient Greeks were. the first civilization that I really. sunk my teeth into and learned a lot.

about. Um. the Bronze Age Greeks. And uh so, I had. this period just over a year ago where I. was thinking like, you know, maybe I. you know, I I was I was teaching myself. ancient Greek, and uh and I was like. just I was deep into it, and. and. I was just I you know, I was too. influenced by academics that were around. me. Way too influenced by it. And the. day I was supposed to. pay the tuition, it's one of the it's.

one of the two times in my life that I I. prayed for a clear answer. Not a not. like oh, maybe I should do this. I I I remember I remember and both times. I'd have to sit down on the shower. floor, and I'd pray and be like, God, I don't want you to show me what to do. I need you to tell me. You need to make. it very obvious. So, this is the second. time, and it happened. The day I woke up. to pay the tuition, everything in me was. like, if you do this, you betray who you. are, and you betray your whole family. >> that? >> And and and it was and it was and it was.

I opened up I allowed It was like God. telling me, I allowed you into that. anthropology course to study the. Americas, not to study the Greeks, not. to not to go around the other world. The. Americas opened itself up to you. That's. what your grandfather explored in the. American Southwest. Of course, we're. Americans, but you know, it was like, no, that's the world that opened up to. you, and that's your that's who you are. It chose you. And uh and I just knew like, oh, like.

this is I can't I can't do this. And um. somewhere in there I was uh Oh, yeah, yeah. I say that I. I do say that I had a a. a mind-opening experience in the jungle, but that's actually not the jungles in. America. I was in Cambodia. Okay. [laughter]. But uh I was in Cambodia and uh. some of my buddies and I we were uh we. were having some very good Cambodian uh. devil's lettuce and uh it was potent, man. And I'm sitting there talking with. them. and I just uh I just knew while while I.

was talking with them. um it was even more confirmed in my mind. that that I had to stay with the. Americas. >> This is a little bit afterwards, yeah. Um. but it but I knew I really really knew. um after spending a lot of time with. some of my friends and kind of hearing. some confirmation bias like that. They. were all like you had to stay with the. Americas. And that's what everybody. thinks cuz it's so natural. But the. difference is like sometimes when people. watch you, they can see you more clearly. than you can see yourself.

>> And so I. have always struggled with. the fact that. the Americas opened itself up to me. Like people see me as the Americas guy. He's the guy that knows a lot about the. Maya, the Olmecs, the the you know, ancient Peru, this that and the other. And sometimes you have this identity. crisis where you're like, "Well, but no, my first love was the Greeks and I like. the Egyptians, too." But that's not what. that's not the plan that, you know, the. universe has for me. And um so anyways, so that's that was kind of my struggle. with with ancient Greece. But you know,

it's uh people have seen sort of this. arc over time where I had some ideas I. thought I was going to do and didn't end. up doing them. But you know, ultimately. I'm at this place now where. I have this I have this. self-awareness now that like uh you. know, the Americas is where I belong. It's my bread and butter and um and. there's so many stories here that need. to be told that nobody else is telling. And there's so many lost worlds here. that like you know, what's funny is is. um. I spend so much time studying a topic.

before I ever talk about it in a uh on. an actual video and produce something. about it. I haven't even slightly scratched the. surface of the things that I will make. videos on. Um, you know, so like sometimes things slip. out in podcasts or people will be like, "You talked to some about this in a. podcast for an hour before. You nearly. made a video on it." I'm like, "Well, you know, I. I just really want to know something. before I But, and it's so it's taken me. a long time to form the direction I'm. going, but you know, now I I kind of.

realize like there's so much in the. Americas. that people know about they should talk. about. Man, I just did I just did the. first the world's first, as far as I. know, historical breakdown, basically. according to the sources, proving the. fact that jaguars were in the East Coast. of the US 300 years ago. Nobody else did anything like that. And. so, the Americas just need that. What. One thing I'm working on right now, um, and we're going to offer to go down. there and LiDAR scan it with Basecamp,

is uh, a team down in Southern Chile. They just found one of the lost colonies. of Magellan uh, down in Chile. Yes, they. just found it. And they're going to try. to find the second one cuz there's it's. twin colonies. But, I don't know how. good their LiDAR stuff is, but we can. LiDAR map like. They sent me They sent me something, but. I I think we can LiDAR like 13,000 acres. in like 5 days. So, we're going to We. would help them find that. Um, but. there's so many stories in the Americas. that. But, you don't mind if we if we if we. travel a little bit around the world.

>> Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and. I should say that said, it's not like. I'm just going to stick to the stick to. the Americas forever, but I know that. that is something that really needs to. be. like my main focus, if that makes sense. But, I Man, I I love ancient Egypt. I. love the Greeks. I I love ancient China, you know, um, so that that that will. always be an aspect of mine. I'll never. niche down again. That was kind of one. of the other things is being around so. many academics, they're so geared towards hyper niching,

and that invades your way of thinking. Um, so I'm always going to be like a. global general historian, but. I. I really, especially now with these new. lidar projects, like I'm really going to. hone in on expanding a lot of the things. that most people don't know about the. Americas. >> Well, that's brings me to something. before we go to break. If you could just. tell us. what it's. really like when you're in the field. Not the Not the glory. I want to know. about the mosquitoes and the logistics.

problems and when things go wrong. What. is that like? Well, mosquitoes, man, the. worst I ever had them was at Machu. Picchu. I made a mistake of wearing a. short-sleeved shirt out there in the. summer. Amazonian mosquitoes are unlike anything. that most people have experienced. Their Their stings I don't know what I. don't know exactly what's in them like. like the venom or something that that's. in that's in their stings that makes. your skin like inflame and cause these.

bumps, but it's so contagious that I. would scratch myself and I would. actually spread it across my arms and. across my body. Three weeks after I'd gotten back from. from Peru, the the bumps are still. spreading around me. Everywhere I would. scratch Luckily, I I avoided getting on. my face, but they were still they would. new bumps would pop up on my arms every. day. And so when you would read the. through the journals of Percy Fawcett. and you see how his his arms were. scarred from the field. So I don't know. if you can You probably can't tell cuz.

you don't stare at my arms every day, but like every little dark spot that you. see where you're like, "Oh, is that a. dark spot?" Yeah, that's a mosquito bite. from from 2 years ago. >> mosquito scar? Yeah, yeah. And then. these these straight lines, these are. from thorns from the from the Heela. expedition I just did. Um. >> What else is out there? Snakes? Yeah, well, so in in Mexico, Central and. South America, you have to worry about. the fer-de-lance. Um. It's the It's the most dangerous snake. I've gotten corrected before by saying.

it's the deadliest snake in in in the. Americas. I still think that it is. Maybe it's not. the most venomous. They say it's the. coral snake. But the problem is that to. get a coral snake to bite you, you have. to shove it up against your hand or. something. But a fer-de-lance will go. out of its way. Oh, it No, it No, it. won't go out of its way, but it won't. run away from you. It'll stay coiled up. And you know, a lot of animals have. fight or flight. It's all fight. And. they And they And they repeat strike, too. So, they'll bite you once and. they'll bite you again and they'll bite. you again and they'll bite you again.

They don't They don't retreat. So, they're really really dangerous and. they're brown. So, So, you don't see. them. You're not Yeah, you're not going. to see them. You have any snake [snorts]. bites yet? No. No, no, no. I've never I've never. been bitten by a snake. Um, yeah, and. I've seen I've seen two fer-de-lances in. person. One was a baby, which are like. extremely dangerous cuz they'll give you. all their venom. Um, and then the other. one was actually at the hotel. They They. They They They They They They They They. They They They They They They They They. They They They They They They They They. They They They They They They They They. They They They They They They They They. They They They They They They They They. They They They They They They They They. They They They They They They They They.

They They They They They They They They. They They They They They They They They. They They They They They They They They. They They They They They They They They. They They They They They They They They. They They They They They They They They. They They They They. >> Uh, when you walk around, you know, I. don't know. If you go to sometimes there. are. uh hotels that you go to where you have. to go out at night to go to the. restroom. And so, sometimes the. restrooms are built up on like a stilt. and that little area between the ground. and the floor of the restroom, they'll. sit right there and they bite people on. the ankles as they're going to the. restroom in the middle of the. >> night. Yeah, that's wild. It's wild. stuff. So, um, >> [clears throat]. >> but I would say.

>> explorer. You're out there. I would say So, I just did a I just did. an expedition on training wheels as as I. call it to to the Gila. And this was. basically. uh myself and a group of guys. We got. ourselves equipped. We bought all the. equipment that you would need for an. expedition pretty much anywhere anywhere. around in the world. And uh and I I. planned this route through the Gila, which I got a lot of pushback for cuz a. lot of people were like, "Oh, you know, I've been hunting out there since. forever. That place isn't uncharted, blah blah blah." I'm like, "I don't even. think you I'm not sure if you know what.

charted means or whatever." But, um. >> [clears throat]. >> or what exactly I'm talking about, whether it's archaeologically charted or. explored or not. Um. and so but it was it was like an. expedition on training wheels. I got to. see and feel what it what it was like to. invest so much. into all the equipment and getting. everybody. prepared and developing a plan and. trying to see what does executing this. plan feel like. And just to give you an. idea of of just how hard it is to go. through.

even just the Gila wilderness, which is. pretty fairly dry and you think that. it's open, it's way more dense and hard to get. through than you think, especially with. river crossings. Like I went in thinking. we'd have to do a few river crossings, and by the time the expedition was over, we had done over 200. >> Oh, wow. >> So, and and you know, one of the other. problems is like. I had I had a a very nice uh pair of. Crispi boots. People are hunters, they'll know what those are, but they're. they're most they're waterproof if you. can keep your.

you know, the boot above above the water. level. Um. but, you know, if you get if you get. water in your in your boots, your socks. get wet, you can only bring so many. socks. By the time you get to the camp, it's. going to be night time, it starts. getting cold, you're not drying out your. socks over a fire. A fire's not hot. enough to to dry out your socks. That. happens 2 days in a row, you have. nothing but wet socks and wet boots. Uh the skin, you know, you're you're. walking so much that the skin on the. bottom of your toes is like peeling. back, especially if they're wet, the. skin on your toes is peeling off. This.

is like trench foot. Yeah, [clears throat] my uh my my both of my. big toes. uh I um I don't know if I I I I didn't. sever the nerves on them, but I I. compressed them so much that now, 6. weeks after we've gotten home, my both. of my big toes, half of them are still. numb. Just from how much I my toe had to. be pressed. And you know, they they say. like, "Oh, well, your boot's not big. enough." But when you're going downhill, you're going to be pressing your your. toes against the side of your boot. Um So, we were.

we went at 30% the pace I expected that. we would go. >> 30%? >> 30%. Yeah, so uh we had the we had this. map in front of us and we thought that. we were going to be able to get from. this lake down this river valley across. this other river valley and then over. the top of this mountain. all in I don't know why I thought we. could do all this in one day. I mean, you're looking at it on satellite and. and you can't see what the terrain is. like, so you go down there to find out. And this is why we did an expedition in. the States. Uh I did it to a place.

that's historically and. I guess. um nostalgically or sentimentally. significant to me, right? In the Gila. Wilderness. And uh so I. there's this place called the Mogollon. Cliff Dwellings, which is a really cool and mostly like. it's like a little hidden gem. Most. people don't don't go to the Gila Cliff. Dwellings. They'll go to like Chaco. Canyon or something. And up that river. about 25 mi up, there's a place where it. gets much more green and all of the uh.

and and the the canyon is very very. dense. So, like flash floods are super. dangerous. And all of the trails through. the Gila Wilderness go around this area. So, it's this area that doesn't get a. lot of traffic. And you would watch. videos and people would say, "The river. continues this way, but we have to stop. here cuz there's no more trails going. through there." They say that's where. all the wildlife fled to in these tight. canyons, so they think like cave or uh. bears and mountain lions and stuff are. living in that one area. >> That's where the food is. And so, that's. where the expedition that's where we. went. We We went straight down this area.

that there that there are no trails. Went straight down and then back out. And um You put this online yet? Yeah, yeah. It's It's like a 2-hour. documentary thing that we did. Okay. Um. and so [clears throat]. uh. Yeah, so, you know, I just I did this to. see I did this because I knew that if. something ever went wrong, we could get. we could get help. You speak the same. language as everybody, right? So, that. that's a that's a big thing. Like, if. you're in Mexico, uh you know, my. Spanish isn't that good. Um and you. know, you have Spanish-speaking people. with you, but it's. >> the yellow cliffs. Yeah, I've These are.

amazing. >> Yeah, but it's just it's just more. complicated to get help in a different. country. In the US, it can happen just. like that. So, um Well, in like 10 years, you're going to be. with a junior explorer who's going to. look at a map and say, "Oh, we could do. this in 2 days." You're going to say, "10." Exactly. Exactly. I I know. exactly. And so, that's why I'm glad. that we did this first expedition. I I. had some comments. People were like. People were like, "Oh, man, this really. blah blah blah blah blah." I'm like, "Man, I'm just. >> the comments. I'm like I'm like I'm just. learning how to, you know, like you guys. just wait till you see what what we're.

about to do. Um cuz now we're planning. this one in American Samoa. That's going. to be a big deal. And then we're doing. this one in the Amazon. If it goes. through, it'll be the biggest scan. that's ever been done in the Amazon. Um. so, uh but yeah, that is as far as being. in the field, everything is so much more difficult, and it takes so much longer than you. anticipate it's going to. Uh like I. said, we moved at 30% the speed that I. thought we would. And um oh, and then.

there's there's food issues, right? Like. >> just going to ask, did you bring enough. supplies? We did bring enough supplies. Uh we had. uh we had one hiccup with the food where. uh one person did not have food. So, we. had to divide the food amongst. everybody. This is how stories begin. Yeah, yeah. So, we had to divide the. food, which took our calories uh from. you know, we had planned for about 1,800. calories a day. Um and that took that. from 1,800 to 900 calories a day.

>> That doesn't sound like enough to do. this work. Oh, man. So, on the last day, I was like I was like wobbly. I was. pushing through. You know, everybody was wobbly by the. last day. I lost so So I wear a size 32. pant and those pants were falling off of. me by the last day. I had go probably go. down like a like a 30 or something. And. um. Yeah, man. It's you know, there's so. many things. And what's cool is.

I talk about this in in the expedition. documentary. I basically say that you. know, most expeditions the most dramatic. part of it is never the discovery. because one most expeditions don't find. anything. You read through Percy. Fawcett. He found a lot of cool stuff. Never found what he was looking for. >> That's right. Ernest Shackleton, greatest explorer of all time. Also the. most unsuccessful explorer of all time. The only reason he's famous is because. he's a a failure, right? But he's. actually. such a a successful explorer because he.

was able to protect all of his men. Nobody died on his expedition. >> covered him. He was a great great Oh, did you really? Okay, yeah, yeah. They just an amazing man. I'll tell you. a great book to read is um. Shackleton's Way. It's it's a it's a guy who's a I think. he's a psychologist and he studied. Shackleton's story and wrote this book. that it's maybe like a 6-hour Audible. listen to. Um. and it it writes it basically.

encapsulates his whole philosophy. Shackleton was writing a book on the. philosophy of being explorer before he. died and it was never published. He. never he never finished it. Um I'm pretty sure that's right. And so. this guy kind of writes that book and. it's fascinating hearing a psychologist. go into why Shackleton would have made. the decisions that he did. Um but. getting out of there was the most. dramatic Getting out of the helo was the. most dramatic part because we were. running low on food. Everybody was. starting to get the wobbles. and.

and so [clears throat] we're at this. point where. we've got a we've got to cross 12 miles. in a single day. and then the next day we can decide if. we want to go back through Iron Creek. which was hell to get through. It was so difficult to get through Iron. Creek that most of it wasn't filmed. because we all needed both hands to be. able to hold on to the cliff sides and. like all all the rubble is falling. beneath you and everything. Um and so. we'll go back through that and then that.

would take us all day and then we'd have. to camp again and we'd have another day. Why I told the guys I was like. and nobody thought that it was possible. until the morning of and I was telling. the guys I was like I was like guys I. can take us if we can climb up this mesa. that's right in front of us we can get. out of here in half a day rather than. two more days of the expedition and and. I don't know I don't know if if if. everybody believed I I think that I. think on the last day everybody was. ready to go and they're like it. let's do it. >> it. Yeah yeah so but I can't I was.

telling the guys for days leading up to. that I was like I was like I think we. can go over that mesa and get out of. here. I think we can I think we can. Of. course you never know for certain and in. my mind I'm like. if if I'm wrong everybody's going to be. fed up cuz you you think like oh it's. not that big of a deal you just go back. down blah blah blah. No when you're. seven eight days in and you've been. walking and walking and walking and. walking and walking and you're low on. calories you're not in normal life. anymore. You're now out in the field. you're your vision's much more like. dialed in You're surviving now. You're. not exploring.

>> Yeah and the small things that happen to. you are more significant. You don't. think about the fact that like oh well. it's just a walk down there and it's. another day. You're like I got to do. this another day and especially. when maybe like like if you're not the. leader of the expedition I'm emotionally. financially. as invested check off everything I'm. that invested so you know. my thought process is different than the. guys that I'm looking out for right and. so so, a lot of psychology there of of. uh. you know, being a leader. And um um Did.

you get over that mesa? Yeah, we got. over it and we were out in half a day. So, I was luckily I I was right. Um and. so, uh I I was That was That was the. coolest part of the expedition was just. getting everybody out way faster than we. expected and getting to the nearest gas. station, which was like 2 and 1/2 hours. away. What did that feel like? Oh, man. We got Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, yeah. So, we got we got Gatorade. We got uh Ruffles. We got uh beef jerky. We got Skittles. We got ice cream. sandwiches.

>> to be so good. >> Chocolate Oh, it was My My buddy's truck. was just filled with trash. >> [laughter]. >> And uh and we So, we gorged after that. and and that was It was It was great, man. Um. ultimately, the expedition we um. we didn't even find any artifacts like. on the rivers. Now, we could have spent. more time like looking for arrowheads. and stuff, but we we just didn't have. time to do that. And uh and and the. river was like brutal cold. Even sitting. next to the river, the wind coming off. of it, dude, your body temperature.

dropped so fast even in the day. Um. and uh. we found we found a site that really. looked like it would have been an. archaeological site. And had I spent a. week there dedicated sleeping at that. site, surveying it and looking around. for just any kind of ground artifacts, we could have confirmed it was a site, but we just weren't able to, especially. not with like the calorie restrictions. Like, we lost probably 2 days of survey. just because we were so short on food. So, uh we had to get back out of there, but all in all, the the main thing I.

learned was that it's not going to go. the way you think, and you're going to. be a lot slower than you think that you. are, and things are going to get like a. wrench is going to get thrown into your. plan. >> And um. yeah, that that's probably the biggest. thing is is the same lesson you hear. from every other explorer is that is. that it's going to be a lot longer and a. lot harder than you think, and all the. things you think are going to happen are. not going to happen that way, and it's. going to go wrong. Um. So, you know, I probably I probably am a. fraction of a step closer to being more.

well prepared for the next expedition. Yeah, things are still going to go. wrong. Yeah, yeah. So, so that's. basically where I'm at now, and. um. uh so, the three expedition projects I'm. planning now are uh across the American. Southeast rebuilding the Mountain. Builder world. Uh working with Terra Terran Cognita. Research Institute, and Basecamp we're. trying to get the permissions to. >> We're going to cover all this. >> scan in the Amazon. Yeah, yeah. We'll. cover all that. And when we come back, I. want your take on one of my favorite. ancient stories that uh.

it all starts with a corpse. Oh, really? Okay, cool, cool, cool. Have you ever heard about this a city. called Alexandria? I've heard about it. once or twice. So. >> Been there once or twice. So, I I showed you earlier that I wear a. um it was a gift from my wife. It's uh. it's a tetradrachm. It's it's uh. Heracles is the is stamped. >> [snorts]. >> uh just about 10 years after um. Alexander the Great died. So, I'm a fan. of his. Could you tell us his life story. really quick, but I really really want.

to know where his body went. Yeah, yeah. Uh well, Alexander. probably I mean, probably the most. exceptional person that lived in the. ancient world. Like, I think the only. guy who. really comes close is probably Julius. Caesar, but uh even Caesar not not the. I don't know, the kind of. crazy enigma that Alexander was. He's. this kid that's born in Northern Greece. in this fringe Greek kingdom.

>> [cough and clears throat]. >> You know, at this at this point, a lot. of the Greek world uh. I don't know if they're you know, Platonic, but they're heavily influenced. by by Athens and Sparta. They have this different way of life. than the Macedonians do up in up in. Northern Greece. And in fact, if you're. Athenian, you might not even see the. Macedonians as being Greek. You might. see them as like barbarian Greek, right? So, he's born in this fringe place and. you know, actually, uh Philip, his father, is also. maybe just as miraculous a story because.

he's a king. in northern Macedonia that's so. intelligent, he manipulates all of the Greek world to. falling under his control. He becomes. the king of Greece. I I'm I'm no expert. really on on Philip. I just know that. I know that the story is so impressive. and nuanced because I have stayed away. from diving into it because I know it's. going to be a huge rabbit hole. But, um. essentially, the Greek world is. just a collection of city-states and.

most of these city-states are not They. don't have a. maybe all of them other than Sparta. do not have a government that's set up. with a monarch or an emperor in charge, right? And so, Philip is able to unite all of the Greek. world under his power in Macedonia. So, in one lifetime, all of the Macedonian Greek kings born. before Alexander are like minor rulers. that aren't very powerful. Macedonia is.

not even on the map. If you ask most. Greeks, "Where's Macedonia?" They're. like, "I don't know." I don't even know. what that is. One lifetime, this guy is born in an. obscure kingdom. and becomes basically emperor or king of. all of Greece. He unites the entire. Greek world underneath him. This is It's. like Game of Thrones the way he's able. to do it. >> And this is probably a thousand. city-states. It's a lot. [clears throat]. It's a lot, yeah. >> And they're constantly fighting with. each other. So powerful that he. I believe basically had control of. Athens and told Aristotle, "You are.

going to come up to Macedonia and tutor. and tutor my tutor my son." That's. right. >> So, that guy's story, to be able to. conquer the Greek world in itself, is. mind-blowing. And then his son turns. around and you know, so. >> [sighs]. >> we don't really know why Philip died or. why he was assassinated. You know, there's all these stories about like his. lover this that and the other. There's. But the reality is nobody really knows. Um.

one of the popular ideas is that. Alexander thought that Persia had sent. assassins to. to assassinate Philip, but that may or. may not be true. But he certainly uses it to gather the. Greek armies and turn his sights towards. turn his sights towards Persia because I. believe that that Philip did want to. do a run across the Turkish coast and. free some of those Greek uh. cities that are living there. And so. that's what Alexander starts out doing.

Well, within just a few battles between. like age 23 and 25, he he has some of these key decisive. victories. And you know, ancient wars. are not like fighting every single day, they're doing this that and the other. It's just a few battles in one war. And. sometimes they can be months or years. apart from each other, but if they lose. that battle, their territory is just crippled, you. know? Um so in a few [clears throat]. decisive battles, he essentially pushes. the Persian Empire all the way back to. Babylon. They don't have Anatolia. anymore. And then he moves down to Egypt.

and he and he never loses. He never. loses never loses a battle. And he at. least not yet. In In India, he kind of. they kind of keep him out of India. I. think he vastly underestimated how big. India was. But. >> [clears throat]. >> rather than pushing into Babylon and. conquering Babylon, uh his advisors tell. him that he needs to turn around and. head uh west to go secure the. breadbasket of the Persian Empire. Which. what fed the Persian Empire, what fed. their whole army is the grain that's.

coming coming from the Nile. It's the. most fertile place in the ancient world. So he he goes in he he shows up to Egypt. and the Egyptians basically welcome. Alexander with open arms because the. Egyptians hated Persian Pharaohs. Uh the. very first um we don't really know if. this happens, but the one of the stories. that's passed down is Camp Isis, which. is the first Persian ruler who becomes. Pharaoh in Egypt uh when he shows up at. Egypt he kills I think he stabs the. sacred Apis bull together uh he stabs it.

to death. And uh at this point. probably from about 1,000 BC to the end. of Egyptian culture. uh like 325 BC, that's when Constantine. shuts down all the temples and. everything. The Apis bull is basically. the main deity at this point. And so the. story is that Camp Isis in like 525 BC. stabs the uh stabs the Apis bull to. death, which just a a massive middle. finger to to the Egyptian culture. They. can't stand the Persians. So they.

essentially welcome Alexander with open. arms. And Egypt has a diplomatic. relationship with Greece at this point. anyway. Right, Pythagoras is going back. and forth. >> Mhm. trading mathematical ideas. >> they they had known each other for a. very long time. Um and they had always. you know the the the Egyptians as far as. we know had always been. open and kind to Greece coming down. Herodotus comes to visit, Solon comes to. visit. I can keep going on. Um. so [clears throat]. So he doesn't necessarily Alexander. conquer Egypt as much as.

shows up and secures it. >> As much as um. The Egyptians know that they have no. standing army. They're not going to be. able to stop Alexander from coming in, but they know that maybe if they welcome. him with open arms he'll be a better. ruler over them than the Persians had. been. Which which probably would have. been the case. Uh it actually was the case. I mean. really what happened from Alexander. coming [snorts] into Egypt and the. Ptolemies later becoming that was a lot. better for Egypt than than the Persians. But um but they essentially welcome.

Alexander with open arms as much as they. can, you know. Um, there's nothing they're going to do. about it. And so Alexander comes to. Memphis. He probably sees the pyramids. Um, I wish that we had surviving records of. that. We There would have been uh. Ptolemy, his best friend, is with him. this whole time. He wrote an account of. all of this either during his life or. later in his life. Those were lost probably with the. library being destroyed so many times. But all of these accounts that we have.

like from Plutarch and. uh what is it? Is it Arrian? Um, one of the all these accounts of. Alexander's lives of his life, they're. drawing on Ptolemy's uh writings, which. they had access to, but we don't. So, there's so who knows how many small. details Ptolemy wrote that's, you know, for whatever reason ancient authors were. like, "Ah, well, I'm not going to repeat. that part, but you know, whatever." So, um. >> [clears throat]. >> So, Alexander to become officially. pharaoh of Egypt,

they have to make this pilgrimage the. Siwa Oasis. So, they cross this vast desert out in. out in the western Egypt, and he meets. with the Oracle of Zeus Ammon, which is. basically a fusion of Amun-Ra and Zeus. And so, this Oracle goes and performs. this. ritual or whatever where they where they. become overcome with the presence of. this god, and they come out, and they. essentially give this confirmation to. Alexander and to the Egyptians, he is the literal or adoptive son of.

Zeus Ammon, right? So, it's this the. Oracle has said that you now have the. blessing of the gods to become pharaoh. Um, so he So, Alexander in that moment. becomes a god, which is kind of one of. the interesting things, one of the only. places in the ancient world. Like a. Roman emperor is a politician. A Greek. king is a king. Roman emperors get assassinated and. killed all the time. You know, Roman. emperors like uh. um. I believe it's the deadliest job in.

human history. Have you ever seen this. stat before? >> I haven't, but I believe it. Yeah, it's. it's something crazy. It's like if you. became a Roman emperor, you had a. like a 47% chance of dying on the job. Something like that, you know, being. being assassinated. Um. so, uh. Roman emperors get killed. They're not. seen necessarily they try to show. themselves as divine beings, but they're. not seen that way. Kings get. assassinated, but pharaohs are something. different. They're they're godly, right?

Um they're they're. part deity. And Alexander played into that role. where. >> He played He played into it, and. probably he was. uh we don't really know if it's. He definitely knows that it is. advantageous for him to play into it. The real question is how much did he. believe it, you know? Um. he probably did believe He probably did. believe it. He He was enamored by the. stories uh you know, Homer uh the Iliad. and the Odyssey. He loved the the. legends of of the Greek world. Because. of Aristotle.

Maybe. I mean, I don't know if we if we. know, you know, why his fascination. happened. I mean, it definitely. Aristotle. uh influenced him, but you know, that's. interesting because Aristotle is a you. know, he's he's in that. Platonic like philosophy heritage, and. Plato and Socrates are not really big. believers, and so, you know, there's a. lot of things playing here. And. Alexander is very different. Like, you. know, a lot of people try to go. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Alexander as. if Alexander is a descendant of those.

guys. Not really. Alexander. he's much different than Aristotle. So, we don't really know exactly what he. believed or really what he saw himself. as. Probably he saw himself as a god or. more than a god because his generals. would like challenge him, and I think. that they would say something like uh. They would say They would compare him to. Hercules, or they would say like like. you shouldn't compare yourself to. Hercules and he's like he's like why. not? I've done more in my lifetime. He. was He was He was more than a He's He's. greater than a god was.

Well, what would any 22-year-old who. conquered half the world be like? >> Exactly. What what would they be like? And um. so essentially he becomes um. he becomes crowned pharaoh of Egypt and. he heads up north and one of the last. things that he We don't know if he did. this before he went to the Siwa Oasis or. if it was right after, but he went up. north and one of the things he always. carried around with him was Homer's. Iliad and the Odyssey. And in the Odyssey. uh which I hope that we see this in this. new Christopher Nolan movie. Um.

Odysseus, one of the places that he. finds refuge at as he's being bounced. around the Mediterranean is this little. island on the coast of Egypt and when he. arrives there, the locals tell him he. asked them where they're at and they say. Pharos. This is Pharos. We don't know if. that's supposed to mean this is the. pharaoh's. land or what or what that means, but he. called it Pharos, p h a r o s in. English. Which is a real small island. It's a. real island. Yeah, yeah. And and um so.

that so he landed there and he stayed. there and then he ended up leaving. Well, Alexander being. 24. 25 years old, he's like I'm going to go. find that place. I want to go see it. Well, he he arrives and it's a little. fishing village called Rhacotis, I. believe. And um and while he's there, he. realizes that that the land itself is. actually kind of advantageous. So the. Greeks like to build on water. The. Egyptians aren't water people. They're. also not desert people. They don't They. don't like the water. They would call. the Mediterranean the great green. So. they That's why you don't see Egyptian.

expeditions going out to conquer places. across the ocean. They will bounce. around the coastline to get up to. um like modern-day Lebanon cuz that's. where they would get their cedar wood. from or or the the uh. Cedars of Lebanon, yeah. And uh get. their wood from Lebanon and they bounce. around do trading expeditions, but. they're not launching full-on seafaring. expeditions. They never really had. military boats in the in the way that. the Phoenicians or the Greeks did. They. like to be down river. Mhm. [clears throat] Guard the delta. Yeah, and they want to be right there they.

want to be right there in the green. that's next to the river. They don't. even go into the desert. They avoided. the desert cuz it was a place for the. dead, right? They would send their dead. out into the desert, but they didn't. live out there. If you went out there, the people living out there were. marauders and barbarians and raiders and. they'll kill you, you know. Well, we. think of ancient Egypt as this giant. world, but it really was just the delta. >> The tiny little place. And it it it. actually get this, dude. So, this is one. of these anthropology things. All right, so this so this is ancient Egypt in a.

nutshell. You've got let's say after the. unification of Egypt. So, after the. predynastic era around 3100 BC and then. we will we will get back to Alexander, but. um. you know, you've got north and south. Egypt, which south is upper north is. lower. We don't have to get into that. Uh it's just it's just the way the. direct It flows weird. Yeah, the way the. [clears throat] way the river flows. Um. but, you've got these three different. places in Egypt essentially. You've got. southern Egypt, which is uh. um you know, a collection a collection. of of cities along these this in this.

fertile valley. Then you have this vast. area that's not really very fertile and. then you get to northern Egypt at the. bottom of the delta. Um. And that's where Memphis and some other. and some other cities were. And then you. have the delta, which there were so. there were some cities living out there. cuz it's a much more lush area. But, the. Egyptians that were living in the north, they saw the delta as being a good. defensive place. So, you would hear if. people ever tried to invade, they would. have to navigate through the waters of. the delta and masters could go back to. the city that's at the bottom of the. delta, which is Memphis, right? So, you.

you're defended in the north and no. one's going to attack you from the south. cuz they're also Egyptian, but they're. not like unified with us, but they live. really really far up the river. Um but, far south. And so it's a it's a. defensive place, but really you have. some villages in the delta, you've got. these main a few cities in that northern. area, and a few cities in the south. Well, over time there. over time there was a pharaoh called, um, Narmer or Menes, and he was from the.

south and he marched north and conquered. the north and then unified them and. started dynastic Egypt. Hey, can you boys throw the delta up. there so we can take a look at how small. [clears throat] it was? Yeah, yeah, tiny. And so you have these two main. places, but you know what's really crazy. is they call it, um, they call it the. two lands because they're so heavily. separated. People don't realize how. separated that that they are. The distance I I'm almost certain about. this, we should measure it right now. The distance between.

Memphis. which across the river is where the. pyramids were being built. >> Yep. The distance between Memphis and. southern Egypt where people were living. is. farther than the distance between. northern Egypt and Athens, Greece. Wow, it's farther? Yes. We should. measure that. I'm pretty sure it is. though. Um, so think about that. They. were moving those those Aswan blocks, when they're moving them to the pyramids. those are traveling farther Hundreds of.

miles away. >> take than it would take to get from the. pyramids to Athens. That's wild. Yep. That's I've never I I actually figured. that out just like in the last week or. so. Um, but so so then you have to think. like, oh, that's how big Egypt is. You think about like Greece is so far. away. No, it's not. Actually actually. Aswan is farther. Sure. So it kind of. plays into like, oh, well, how big did. the Egyptians see their world? Like they. must have known their world was actually. actually absurdly large.

Anyways, that that's kind of one of. these cool anthropology things. It. changes the way that you think about. Egypt when when you're studying it. Um. so Alexander, he's [clears throat] up at. he's up at Aswan. and he he sees this good defensive. posture. uh that the later city of Alexandria. would have. There's this little strip. that the north side of it is connected. to the Mediterranean. On the south side. is a lake called uh. Marioutis, I think, Lake Marioutis. It's. just this little strip of land that's.

only exposed on the east and west sides. And right out in front of that is is. that little island of Pharos. That's uh. nearby this this fishing village. So he pulls up with his convoy into this. little strip of land and um. and he he doesn't have chalk or. anything, so he grabs like some grain. out of the saddlebag, throws it down. onto the sand. and he marks out the way the city is. going to be built. So it's So he's. thinking, "I'm going to build a city. here." He's going to build Alexandria. Now I don't think this is the first.

Alexandria. I think. I think that this is I think this may be. one of the last ones. There's a funny. joke in the classics that's like uh if. somebody ask you to name 10 cities of. the ancient world, just say Alexandria. cuz there I think there were 10 of them. or there were more than 10. Um but Alexandria, Egypt is the one that. stuck. So he grabs this the grain out of. the saddlebag, >> [clears throat]. >> throws it on throws it on the ground and. he marks out that the city's going to be. built around these two major roads and. they're each going to be something like.

100 ft wide, absurdly wide and lined. with stone, which is very rare in. ancient times. Most of the time it's. just packed dirt uh uh. roads. And um. and they're going to line up with the. Mediterranean winds so they could. determine which way the winds come from. and both the roads are going to be. pointing towards the wind so that the. winds will sweep down the city and cool. the people down living in Egypt or. living in the city. So he maps it all out and then he leaves. one of his architects. He says, "You're. going to stay here with, you know, who. knows how many men are with him." You.

know, we have this idea that it's just. like. this caravan of like maybe a couple. dozen people, but probably it's like. hundreds or thousands people with him, you know? Um so. after he gets done laying it down, this. flock of seabirds come and they just. devour all the grain right in front of. him. Now, he's very superstitious and he. looks at one of his. uh. looks at one of his uh guides that are. with him and he thinks that this is a. bad omen and maybe they shouldn't build. the city here. And the guy says, "No, no, no, no, no. This is a good omen. This means that.

this city is going to feed many nations. for many years to come or something like. that." So, uh so Alexander ends up. leaving Alexandria. He leaves his. architect back and they start building. the city immediately right then. Does he. plan the lighthouse and the library at. that point or No, I I don't think so. I. mean, if he did. >> never comes back, right? If he. [clears throat] did, we don't know. We. don't know. That's the thing. Um so, he. leaves Alexandria and he goes on to. conquer Babylon and he tries to move. into India, it doesn't really work out, goes back to Babylon, ultimately dies.

We don't know why he dies. Um some. people think that he could have been. assassinated, that he could have been. poisoned to death. Uh his his death. certainly seems a bit like poison or. maybe it's alcohol poisoning, you know, just a living a very, very rough life. I don't know, but um Cuz he's not. injured in battle. Yeah, well, he gets injured, but not. like not mortally wounded. Right. And uh. I think he takes an arrow to to the to. his uh chest at some point. Or to his. stomach. Um.

I think he does, but but it's but it's. not it's not life-threatening. So, um. a lot of people think that that it was. alcohol poisoning, just just living a. very like rambunctious life and. ultimately poisoned himself. And some. people think that it could be some form. of cancer that obviously is not able So, anyways, um. when he's on his deathbed, his. um all [clears throat] of his men come. to him and they say they say, "Alexander, you don't have you don't. have an old enough heir. He's got a He's. got a son with.

I other a Persian woman or an Indian. woman, um but the but the son is like an infant. and they're not going to be heir. They. want a Greek, right? So, um there's no. there's no. obvious heir to the throne and he says. he says uh. to the fittest. That's essentially what. he says. And so, what does that mean? So, >> to the fittest [clears throat] take it. out. >> So, yeah, so initially they divided up. into. um around half a dozen different. territories. They divide up the mast the.

Macedonian empire. Which is how big at. this point? Uh well, it's it's the Persian empire. plus Greece. So, it's all the way east. to India, west to through Europe, down. the entire Mediterranean. Yeah, I mean, we don't really know. beyond well, beyond. Greece as you go west, like maybe. Syracuse is part of the empire, but I. don't think he he didn't have Italy. Um the the like the early Romans are.

around. He probably would have set his. sights west and gone and conquered. Italy, but I think maybe they had. Syracuse, but they didn't have Italy. Uh. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, they didn't. have it. So, it stopped at Macedonia. So, this this is still I think the third. biggest empire in history behind England. and the Mongols. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, yeah, he dies he dies in Babylon. at uh 32 years old. And um. to his empire goes the fittest. They. divide it up into I think it's just a.

little bit more than a than a dozen. different territories and Ptolemy, like Alexander cuz they they bonded over. their their fascination with the. Egyptian world. Uh the Egyptians. were seen as like being otherworldly. ancient to the Greeks, right? Like they. were this civilization that had. still existed and been around since the. beginning of time and they were still. around. Like the Greeks at the at the. fall of the Bronze Age, they lose their they lose their memory. Like one of the things that the. Egyptians say about the Greeks is that.

there's no old Greeks. They don't. remember anything. Um And we're going to cover that later. with the Minoans. [clears throat] It's. fascinating. >> Yeah, so much. they they remember so little to the. point that. this is probably one of the one of the. slight problems I take with with when we. look for Atlantis that we treat like we. hang on every word that's we think that. Solon said, but Solon is alive. he's alive in the 600s to the to the. early 500s. >> like 300 years. And and even that is.

semi-mythical. to the classical Greeks. Like they have. a really hard time remembering their. past. >> Right. And Solon even says, I've I'm. telling the story from I learned it from. Egyptian priests. I never Exactly. So, um. and and that gets passed down orally we. think to to Plato. So, you know, anyways. So, even to those guys, sorry. to interrupt. >> Yeah. Ancient Egypt is still. ancient. It ain't it's still ancient and. still continuing. The Manetho's history. of ancient Egypt which he I think that.

Manetho he was an Egyptian and he wrote. it in Alexandria, I'm pretty sure in one. of the latter three centuries BC. And. and that history of ancient Egypt has. stood up with the archaeology. So, the. Egyptians. from 3100 BC all the way down to the. time of Alexander, they remembered their. history. Now, there is there prob there. we do see myths come through. Like. Herodotus says that the um. Herodotus says that the Egyptians told.

him that Khufu out his daughter. to be able to build the pyramids or. something like that. Well, the Egyptians. say all kinds of crazy stuff when you go. get a tour guide there today. Like. there's a massive difference between a. tour guide and a historian living in. Egypt, right? Like. you can't take both of you know, both of. them you can't put the same amount of. weight behind their opinions, but uh. the uh. there's definitely legends and stuff. that get twisted up, but as far as the. broad history, like the Egyptians even. thousands of years later, they still.

understood their history. And they look. at the Greeks as being like little. children that don't know anything. Um. so so Ptolemy goes to Egypt and he's. basically a governor of Egypt living out. of Alexandria. They've now built up the. city much more. I think another decade. has gone by. Well, what about. Alexander's body? So, Alexander's body is kept in Babylon. for a while. >> For a while, okay. And um and so I. forget who one of Alexander's heirs. were, the general that wanted to bring. his body back to Greece. I forget his.

name. Um but as Ptolemy is is rising in power. and kind of consolidating and getting. everything going in Egypt, he. at least my interpretation and in the. agreement of private conversations I've. had with other historians, Ptolemy has a huge dilemma here because. he's not a warlord semi-divine god. mythical being. that Alexander was and the Egyptians. know that. They're not stupid. You know, like even though they're. This is really interesting.

Um I was the other day I was just. reading uh the writings of Ptahhotep, which um was written around 2400 BC and. he's the world's first philosopher and I. think it's the world's first book, actually. It's the oldest book that we. know of, a collection of writings. Yeah, he was a vizier living under one. of the pharaohs that come shortly after. Khufu, Khafre, and Menkaure. Um. Uh. I think sixth dynasty or fifth No, it's. must be fifth dynasty. Anyways, it's this it's this book of.

like. 60 some odd lessons of how to live your. life. correctly and how to interact with other. people and treat them is just a. mind-blowing. You will read he he has. very specific scenarios that he'll. mention and you're like, "Oh, I've been. in a situation like that." It's. freaking crazy. But, one of the things. that he says. in the book is uh. is that. the it's. it's something like like listen to what. every person has to say because often.

the wisest words you'll hear will be. spoken. from the women at the fountain or. something it's something like that. And. basically what he's saying is that these. poor peasant women women have obviously. no rights that no no high standing no. nothing. They're. they're a lower class citizen than, you. know, men. Um. often times these normal peasants will. have will. will have the most intelligent things to. say that you've ever heard of. So, thousands of years earlier he's telling. us that even the peasants in Egypt are.

very intelligent people, right? So, So, Ptolemy's not fooling anybody by. just posturing like he's this great. ruler. He actually has to appeal to the. Egyptian people. because the Egyptians will revolt. I. mean, they tried to revolt against the. Greeks, they tried to revolt against the. Romans, they still want independence. even though they. they like the Greeks more than they like. the Persians, they still want their own. independence and you can't fool these. peasants. And if you can, you can't do. it forever. Um you know, you if anything and these. and these rulers knew this, you can't.

rule with an iron fist. You will get. your head chopped off. So, you actually. have to live up to the expectation. And that and that is the expectation of. a ruler in ancient Egypt. They were. supposed to live in accordance with. Ma'at. They had to be philosopher kings. that were focused on morality and and. keeping justice in the way of the. universe the divine order of the. universe together. If you were not. legitimately a good person as the ruler. of Egypt, Egypt would be cursed. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy to me. So, so.

>> obviously got through to them. He did. But, he had but he had a he had a. dilemma. He had to figure out a way to. do that. He had to This normal guy who's. just a politician in the Greek world had. to figure out a way to break through. So, he does. Let's say like three and a half things. He builds the Lighthouse of Alexandria. Essentially, it's a symbol of Egypt's. Well, he's got he's got to do a lot,

too. He has to appeal to the Egyptians. cuz he's now their their governor. He's. Soon he's going to He's just going to. proclaim himself pharaoh because the the. whole All these governors that are now. ruling over Alexander's empire break up. and start warring against each other. The the lines become cut, right? He's. now not aligned with the Greeks anymore. He's a Greek family. that ended up stranded in Egypt and in. control of Egypt. So, he has to become. like Greek-Egyptian now cuz he can't go. back to Greece. Right. And uh Didn't his.

empire stop in Turkey or so? Like. Yeah, yeah. I think Yeah, I think that. they I think that they control a little. bit of that. >> And there's the lighthouse that was over. 300 ft tall. Yeah. Well, it's it's. actually. Well, I'll tell you in a second. >> Okay. So, he's got to do two things. One, he wants. to send a big middle finger back to. Greece. He's going to say, "Look at what. I'm going to build." So, he So, he's. worried about impressing the Greeks. I was told this by a Greco-Roman. historian as well. He was like, "Oh,

also think about the fact that he's. trying to impress the Greeks and make a. statement to them." And I was like, "Okay, that's true. That's true." So, um. So, I was That was Told in Stone that. told it to me. He's a He's a great guy. Um. So, he's trying to impress the Greeks. and he has to impress the Egyptians. So, he builds the Lighthouse of Alexandria, which is a calling back to Odysseus. finding refuge basically at Alexandria. because uh the They build the lighthouse. on the island of of Pharos. And. essentially, what that lighthouse is It. was burning 24 hours a day, and it was a.

welcoming to the Mediterranean world. You're welcome here. This beacon is a. safe refuge. This is the first. lighthouse in in history, but that's. what it meant. It was a safe refuge. calling back to um. to that like primordial Greek world. But. it's also built within just a few feet. of being the same height as the Great. Pyramid. Oh. >> And it's built in it in according to the. sources, it's built out of like 65-ton. red Aswan granite stones, which. architecture like that had not been.

produced in Egypt for more than 2,000. years. It depends on on how old you. think that the Osireion is, if you're. familiar with the Osireion. A lot of. people try to date that to uh oh, I. think it I think it's. established dated to 19th Dynasty under. Seti I. I don't agree with that. I think it's I. think it's definitely contemporaneous. with the Valley Temple. You do? You. don't think it goes back that far? Uh yeah, I mean, however old however old. the pyramids and the Valley Temple and. the Sphinx is, I think the Osireion is. the same age built by the same.

architect. >> would agree. >> Architect. Yeah, I mean, the original. excavators of the Osireion thought that. It's pretty It seem It's pretty seems. pretty obvious. So, um. And um. they weren't really [snorts] using Aswan. granite. in the they so there's some Aswan in the. King's Chamber, there's some in the. Osireion, and then that's it, right? >> it it's a it is it is always. incorporated. Like the obelisks are. raised and those are red Aswan granite. But the uh the way the granite is used.

just changes. It becomes more like uh we. don't have. statues made out of red Aswan granite. during the Old Kingdom, you know, made. out of any of the Old Kingdom pharaohs. at all. But we do have massive statues. made out of single pieces of red Aswan. granite that come from. all periods of the New Kingdom, but that. granite's being used in a totally. different way. Um we even have some of the largest. single standing statues, actually come. from the time of Alexandria. But so.

they're using Aswan stones. They're. bringing them now like 700 miles. But. people always say the the stones from. Aswan came 500 miles. Well, in. Alexandria, they went 700 miles to be. used uh for the lighthouse. So the. lighthouse is built within just a few. feet of being the same height as the. Great Pyramid. So Ptolemy is telling the. Egyptians, "We're going back. We're. going all the way back. Those pyramids. that have loomed over your civilization. for the last 200 years, that you always. say you wish you could go back to the. golden days. Like in the Middle Kingdom, there are these things that are called. the laments, which are these writings.

that come out of that come out of. uh the Middle Kingdom. And uh and it's. basically these people like lamenting. over like how crappy early Old Kingdom. early Middle Kingdom was. And they wish. that they could go back to the time of. their great-great-great-grandfathers. And so they would call it the golden age. of the golden days or golden age of. Sneferu, which is supposedly he lived. before the Great Pyramids. But it was a. it was a time of like immense wealth in. Egypt. And so the Egyptians throughout. all their history, they they look at. those pyramids and they're like, "Man,

like you know, E- Egypt after the 19th. Dynasty kind of becomes a backwater of. the Mediterranean. Everyone around Egypt. becomes just as powerful as them, and. then they eclipse the Egyptians, and the. Egyptians just it's just this backwater. dump that all these people live in in. the shadow of the pyramids." And so. Ptolemy goes, "No, we're going back. now." So he fuels. Egypt with all this money that came from. Alexander's empire. And now the uh and now the grain that. comes from Egypt is not being extorted. by the Persians or anyone else uh or the.

Assyrians. I think they were conquered. by the Assyrians shortly. They're not. being extorted. Even though it's a Greek. in power, it's now like the old days. because that Greek lives solely in. Egypt. This is the capital moved north. So Alexander brought back national. pride. >> Exactly. Exactly. Um it's actually the. second time that happened in Egypt. The. Nubians did that, too. The Nubians came. north and they conquered Egypt and. there's the saying that the Nubians were. more Egyptian than the Egyptians. So, the Nubians restored Egypt to the way of. the old.

Didn't they rule for a couple hundred. years as well? Yeah, five five. generations, I think. That's That's a. long time. >> Yeah. So, um you know, the Egyptians um. Yes, it's a it's a fascinating history. So, he brings So, Ptolemy brings back. like national pride. And you know, he. also has nowhere else to go. So, he's. got to make this thing work. So, then he. builds the Library of Alexandria. Now, when I say three and a half things, the. half is that the Museion is connected to. it. So, it's actually a university, not. just a library. And so, in that library,

everybody's heard the way it operates. You would You would be going down the. Mediterranean. You see the the. lighthouse off in the distance. You come. into the main harbor, opens up. Massive. city made out of gleaming Tura white. limestone, which is the same casing. stones on the outside of the pyramids. Uh marble that would be imported from uh. I think there's some marble in Egypt, but they were also importing marble from. Greece through the the markets and um. all kinds of Egyptian granite. Like it. just would have been a Pretty sure it.

would have been crazy city. Greatest. city Greatest city ever built up to this. point. Far more impressive than Athens. And um and way more impressive than. Rome. Rome is nothing at this point. Um. And so, uh so you pull in, you come up. to the dock, and then and then officials. would board your ship, and they would. want to see your writings, like what you. had. And they wouldn't take everything. you had, but they would take the things. that were important or things that they. would like to have a copy of. So, they'll So, they'll say, "We're going to transcribe this, copy it. all down, and then upon when you leave,

we'll have these ready to give back to. you." But actually, they would keep the. original and give you back the copy of. what you had. So, they're collecting. this massive archive of of all the known. literature of the ancient world, and. people are studying things. Um. I'm pretty sure it's a scientist that's. a living in uh. or a scholar that's living in Alexandria. who has the realization that's um that. the Earth is a sphere. Uh Eratosthenes. I'm I'm pretty sure he's he's living in. Alexandria when he performs this.

experiment. And you mentioned that it's. more than a library cuz it was it was. kind of like DARPA back then. Experiments and science and all kinds of. ex- things going on. Yeah, and you you. had you know people. showing up to the library to learn about. a number of things. I mean, they're. they're studying sacred geometry, they're studying the pyramids. We have a. surviving uh piece of a papyrus that's. like the geometry of the pyramid that. they're writing down and you got these. Greeks trying to figure out the way that. the. you know, why the pyramids were built. the way that they were. It's it's really.

really interesting. Uh Manetho is. writing his history of ancient Egypt. probably in the library or associated. with it at some point. And all the. archaeology has backed up that he was. correct. There There's even some. particulars that I'm forgetting right. now, but there were particulars that. archaeologists disagreed with and then. later on realized that they were wrong. by disagreeing with him. So, it's it's. it's really cool. Um So, So, Alexandria is like this amazing. beacon, but it needs one more thing. It. needs Alexander's body. Okay.

>> And so, he launches this expedition and. intercepts Alexander's body on the way. back to Macedonia. And I I think there's a little skirmish. over it, but essentially Ptolemy's army. is much more powerful. They confiscate. his body. They bring it down to Memphis. They hold it in Memphis for a very short. period of time. I think it was temporarily. held in a tomb in Memphis and we might. actually know what tomb that was. Uh I. saw a lec- I saw like a lecture or. presentation on this a few years ago. But, they have decided to move his body.

north and they built this mausoleum for. him. And he was buried in a solid gold. sarcophagus with all of his, you know, treasures in the sarcophagus with him. And so, the idea of the mausoleum um. what what we think was that it sat in. the center of the city. It was right. across the street. So, you had Soma Road. and Canopic Way. Those are the two main. roads of Alexandria. And it sits right. across the street from the Library of. Alexandria and the Museon. So, if you're. walking to work in the morning, you got. to walk underneath this huge mausoleum. with a statue of Alexander on top of it.

And then to the right is the library and. the Museon as you're going wherever it. is that you're going in town that day. And so, every day people would have. walked by and seen, you know, seen it. right in the center of town, Alexander's. mausoleum. They must have been so proud. to live there. Exactly. It's just glory. all around. Exactly. >> There's nothing like this in the world. And so, by Ptolemy securing Alexander's. body, he's much more able to then. declare himself the heir to Alexander. He's now going to be He's now not just. the governor of Egypt, which is what he.

was for a long time. Uh let me let me see. He becomes. governor of Egypt. When did When does uh Alexander die like. like. >> 323 BC or something? Yeah, cuz he visits Egypt in 331 and. then he leaves and never comes back. >> Yeah. And I think it's not until about. 310 BC. So, it's more than 10 years. later that Ptolemy. finally is in a place where he declares. himself pharaoh and we we have like. these diorite. uh. um busts of him as a pharaoh.

And so, he declares himself pharaoh and. now the Ptolemaic dynasty begins. And. that's going to go on for 300 years. And. so, at the beginning of that dynasty, we. have what's called the the three good. Ptolemies. And uh so, Ptolemy I, he's the one that really expands. Alexandria. He gets the um. We don't actually know when the li- when. the uh when the library, the Museon, and. the lighthouse were done with their. construction. Um or we don't know if they were done. during his lifetime. But Ptolemy II,

they are complete during during his. lifetime. And then Ptolemy III is born, and they're just constantly expanding. the. >> as the pharaoh, yeah. >> Yeah, it's really, really cool. So, they're just constantly expanding. Egypt's wealth during this time period. Egypt is filthy rich now. >> Yeah. Probably the Egyptians are like, "Well, I wish our pharaoh was Egyptian, but. >> But things are going pretty good for us. right now.". Then we have Ptolemy IV that's born, and. Game of Thrones begins. And um.

I don't know exactly when he's born. It. must be. It's probably sometime around 250 BC, I. would guess, maybe a little bit after. that. Um but things start going south. right here. These Ptolemies don't really. care about being. involved with Egyptian culture at all. They don't really care about being. invested into the Egyptian uh world. None of them speak Egyptian. None of. them can read Egyptian hieroglyphs. They're They're like disconnected. They. live in their palace. And they're kind of like, "Let them eat.

cake." You know, that's that's sort of. It's kind of like nepo babies. It's. [clears throat]. >> Yeah, exactly. >> hard to say that, but that's really what. they were, spoiled brats. >> Yeah, and it all starts falling apart. And then by about 150. Uh yeah, I think it's about 150 BC. Uh. Ptolemy. the 10th is born. And. Alexandria is so far in debt. that it things are so bad, actually. Think about how Think about how.

far Egypt has fallen in 150 years. That they're so far in debt that Ptolemy. the 10th has no choice but to go down. into the mausoleum of Alexander. They exhume his body from the gold. sarcophagus, and they build him what. they call a crystal sarcophagus, which. is probably alabaster, which is like. you know, some mid-level people. throughout Egypt could afford an. alabaster sarcophagus. Um. so, it's really not a high honor to be. put in alabaster sarcophagus. And he. just wants the gold. >> They They melt down all of the gold that.

Alexander was born with that he had been. resting in for the last 170 years and. that is gone. You know, it gets melted. down and it probably gets sold off to. partly pay the debt. So, uh Ptolemy the 11th is born. And he's not a very good pharaoh. Ptolemy the 12th is born. Now, we're. getting close to Cleopatra Mark Antony. time. Ptolemy the 12th is um. is. Alex- or Ptolemy the 12th is Cleopatra's.

father, I believe. Or maybe it's Ptolemy. the 13th, but I think Ptolemy the 13th. is her brother. So, long story short with Cleopatra and. we're getting to like what happened to. Alexander's body. >> Yeah. So, long story short with Cleopatra, um. >> [clears throat]. >> she for some reason I I I heard Dr. Bob. Brier like imagine this one time and he. was like he was like, "You know, we have. we have a record of Cleopatra's family. going on a family vacation down to. Memphis.". Probably they spend the vast majority of. their life in Alexandria.

And there was something about Cleopatra. that just made her curious about her. world. She was clearly invested in the. library uh judging by when the library. gets attacked and part of it gets burned. down, she's like devastated by that. Mark Antony gives her a gift to repay. her by donating like 200,000 books to. the library. um which is This was Caesar who burned. it that first time. >> The first time, yeah, yeah. And then. it's burned again by Augustus uh later. on. So, um. and then it's burned again by.

uh Aurelian and it's burned by. Caracalla. Yeah, it's. it actually gets destroyed like five. times. Um but most people just just only. remember the the first. But, um And I. think the first is probably the least. damaging. Oh, the last one is the last. one is the most. We'll we'll get there. Um. so, there's this family there's this. record of them going on a family. vacation. They go on a not a family. vacation but a royal visit to Memphis. And one of the things she would have. definitely been taken to was to go see.

the pyramids, but at this point in time, like we were talking about earlier, the. Apis bull is the central deity of the. Egyptian world. Well, from what we know, the Egyptians interpreted, whether. people agree with it or not, the. Serapeum, um which is that labyrinth. that's under the ground where these. massive, you know, bull boxes are. They. call them the Serapeum boxes, the bull. sarcophagi, whatever. Um she They would. have definitely gone down in there. There's no question that Cleopatra. walked those halls as a little girl, and.

she probably was mystified by the. mystery of this underground place that's. super ancient, and she's hearing. Egyptian being spoken next to her, and. you know, it's kind of like one of those. people who break out of some kind of. family cycle. Some Something is ticking. in their brain differently than. everybody else, and she's she's. captivated by all of it. Well, she. becomes like a polyglot and starts to. learning like every language. I think. they they say that she could speak like. seven language flu- seven languages. fluently, or maybe more. Um but she. could she could speak, read, and write.

Egyptian. And uh she loved that culture. And. through, by hook or by crook, she finds. herself as pharaoh. Whether or not she. had her siblings killed, all of them. killed on purpose, whether or not she. had her brother killed, we don't really. know. They say he drowned. Um you know, so we don't we don't really. know. But she becomes a pharaoh, and everybody. knows the the famous story, but. ultimately at the end of Cleopatra's. life, um. the Romans have fully sunk in their.

claws into Alexandria. And the way that. this started was the original Ptolemies. So, the Romans built up their power. throughout the Mediterranean world by. being mercenaries for other people. So, they have this great standing army that. nobody else has. But the city of Rome is just mud and. bricks. It's nothing special at all. It's just a It's literally a dump. There's no amazing public architecture. There's no Colosseum. There's no Circus. Maximus. I don't think the Circus. Maximus is there, at least not in the. way that it later would be. Even while Cleopatra is alive, which is,

you know, let's call it roughly 40 BC, Rome is just a city of mud brick. And um. and the only reason it has power is. because it's got this amazing. well-trained standing army. So, when the. Ptolemy's power is waning over these. last few hundred years following. Ptolemy III. Uh. what they do to keep the rebellions down. in Egypt is they hire Roman mercenaries. to come in. So, all of a sudden. Egypt gets politically.

invaded. Like it like the Romans are. basically performing espionage inside. the inside Alexandria. They're sinking. their claws in and becoming more. powerful in Alexandria slowly slowly. slowly slowly over time until the. Ptolemies are so weak that all the. pharaohs got to do is walk in and. or all all the Roman emperor or a. wealthy Roman is going to walk in and be. like, well, what are you going to do. now? Right. And that was that and. Cleopatra knew that. That's why she. seduced. um Julius Caesar because rather than. being conquered by him, if she could.

marry him, she could pull the Roman. capital down to Alexandria instead. And. that's what Julius Caesar wanted to do. That's why he That's ultimately why he. got killed. Uh Yeah, there's this little. rumor that that they had a child. together. Oh, they definitely did. Uh. Caesarion. Yep. Yeah. Uh. Augustus killed him for sure. Um What is. there to the story that Augustus knocked. off Alexander's nose when. [clears throat] he went to visit the. body? Oh, is that Augustus or is that um I.

thought it was Augustus Octavian. Could be wrong. I talked to a fish. I think I think you might be right. It's. one It's one of those It's one of those. Roman emperors and I bet that's true. He. bends down to kiss him and the nose like. the nose disintegrates. Um. Yeah, but there was another there was. another guy who was more obsessed with. Alexander, I believe. Uh. It may have been Caligula. Or it may. have been Caracalla. Uh who comes to Alexandria and wants to.

see Alexander's tomb and puts on. Alexander's breastplate. Oh my goodness. >> Yeah, takes it off of his body and puts. it on. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure. Uh yeah, some of those Roman emperors. they're they're You should have on a guy. who's who's an expert in in Rome stuff. because those emperors are crazy, man. >> That sounds like a Caligula move to. make. Yeah, it does sound like like. something Caligula would do, but it. could be Caracalla, too. He Caracalla. was a crazy guy, also. Um but but uh Augustus was very. respectful. Augustus is like, you know,

a lot of people hold Julius Caesar up as. being like the truest Roman. I don't. know. It might be Augustus because. Augustus is ruthless but respectful. Mhm. So, I. think it's the story of Augustus or it. might be Julius Caesar. Um. when he shows up to um. Alexandria, he wants to see uh. Alexander's tomb. So, they bring him down into the. mausoleum, but also buried there were. the uh. sarcophagi of all the other Ptolemaic. kings. They're all buried around.

Alexander. So, it's this huge mausoleum. and they're all buried in it, right? So, you It's like a museum. You can see, well, here's Alex Here's Alexander in. the center. Over there's Ptolemy I all. the way to Ptolemy XIII. And it might be Augustus or it's Julius. Caesar has this funny thing where they. ask him, "Okay, do you want to see dead guys?". And he's like, "No, I came to see a. king." Or something something like that. And he basically just like shits on all. the other, you know, Ptolemies. And uh. So, anyways, Cleopatra knew that the. Romans were on the doorstep of of Egypt. And the only thing she could do is.

seduce the most powerful man in Rome cuz. you got to keep in mind, Julius Caesar. was never a Roman emperor. He was just a. very wealthy warlord. And he controlled. a vast portion of the Roman world. And. so, she knew if I can get this guy. on my side, I can pull him down here and. we can be co-regents together and Egypt. won't be conquered, right? It's Egypt. will still have its autonomy. It'll just. be fused with a new civilization. Or. maybe she would. maybe she was thinking that Julius.

Caesar would break off from the Romans. altogether and bring all his men down. there and he. >> happening before. Crassus and Pompey or after? During during Yeah, yeah. During. >> During all of that. Yeah. So um. So anyways, uh. I think that Pompey has perhaps already. died at this point and there are some. people that Julius Caesar for for some. reason for years I had thought that that. Pompey was in Alexandria and to to. prevent him from fleeing, Julius Caesar.

had the docks burned. But I think it was. it was it was a. part of his army, something like that. Julius Caesar doesn't want this group of. guys leaving so he burns the docks and. and destroys their ships so that they. can't even escape. So he's going to find. them and kill them all. Well, when that. happens, the you know, you can imagine like the. docks connected by ropes and wood and. you know, that the library itself is. built out of stone but the floorboards. are all made out of wood and the um. so think about the uh imagine like a. wine cellar, the little uh. diamond slots that you put the wine.

bottles in. That's how the uh. that's how the papyri were were stored. and those were all made out of wood. So. the interior of the library burns up but. the stone architecture survives, right? And so a massive portion of the library. is is destroyed. I don't know why. you know, you hear a lot of story. historians they they repeat the pop the. popular like debunk that's like, "Oh, it's not really that bad. The library. had already been in decay.". Well, that's not really supported by the. fact that it devastated Cleopatra so. badly that Mark Antony feels compelled.

later on to gift her like 200,000 books. back to the library. So that tells us. that this was something that was so. detrimental that it actually affected. Cleopatra on an emotional level that. Mark Antony had to make up for that. later. So, >> They may have made the library great. again. Yeah, I I I mean I'm I'm guessing so. that that she invested she poured a. whole bunch of money back into it cuz. clearly she's very very well educated. and must have spent a lot of time there.

And the lighthouse is still this beacon. at the lighthouse. >> is still there. The lighthouse gives. this, man. The lighthouse is so well. built. that it was standing within just a few. years of Columbus arriving in the. Americas. It was still standing. >> That's crazy. I know a couple of earthquakes hit it. pretty bad over the years. Yeah, and. then. >> [clears throat]. >> and then they decided to tear it down to. build to build a new uh I forget There's. some citadel that's there today, but. some of those blocks are still there. And the blocks are still like laying in. the water around that It was just. tumbled and fallen into the water, but. you can see these massive.

granite Aswan blocks laying there. Well, then give then give me or take, where's. the body? Is it St. Mark's? Yeah, yeah. So so So, I'm sorry. This is the most. long-winded answer of all time. No, I. love this stuff. [snorts]. >> So, uh. So, long story short, Julius Caesar is killed before he can. move Rome's capital. Uh Augustus. is essentially becomes the son the. adopted son of of Julius Caesar's.

empire. He wages war on on his rivals, kills them all, comes down to Alexandria, and basically Cleopatra and Mark Antony, they know that if they go back to Rome. with Augustus, they're going to be. paraded around and then they're going to. be executed. >> Mhm. So, they kill themselves. And. Augustus, being actually a classy guy, um when he visits Alexander's tomb, he's. respectful, very respectful of the tomb. He looks up to Alexander, sees him as. like this mythical hero. And he'll And.

he allows, as far as we know, he allows. Cleopatra and Mark Antony to be buried. where they wanted to be buried. Nobody's. ever found found their bodies. And he gave the Egyptians 1 year to. mourn Cleopatra. And most people won't realize this, Augustus just became pharaoh. It wasn't. like the pharaohs ended. There's still. another 325 years of pharaohs to go. Right. >> Like. uh most people won't realize that's. crazy. Uh most of the time we we look at. Egypt's history from 3100 BC to 30 BC,

but no, it goes on it keeps going on. So, um. But Augustus was a great politician. because he would [clears throat] have. had a revolt if he didn't allow that. Exactly, [snorts] and he knew that. And. he never calls himself emperor, he. doesn't ever call himself king, he calls. himself the first citizen. And um and. he's one of the few emperors that gets. to live a full life. He dies of old age. and and uh. yeah, just a cunning, merciless, but smart and respectful guy. Really interesting story. Um.

So, Alexandria continue continues on from. there. Mostly business as usual. Like. the average guy, his life is like, "Oh, wow. That was dramatic. Right. Back to, you know, back back to work." And um so, >> Is the body of Alexander still there? The lighthouse is still there? Yeah, [clears throat] so So, when when. Augustus invaded, he burned down. Alexandria's library. Uh. part of it. We don't know, you know, to. how how much. Uh Caracalla, there are all these Alexandrians that.

are telling these jokes about Caracalla. um in the theater in in town and, you. know, making all these jokes at his. expense or whatever. Well, he pays. Alexandria a royal visit and lines up. 25,000 people and slaughters them and. burns down and burns down the palisades. Now, the palisades are connected. directly to the library. So, the library. gets gets damaged during this time. Caracalla doesn't care. Uh Aurelian has to come and squash a uh. this isn't Marcus Aurelius, this is. Aurelian.

>> He has to come and squash a revolt where. an Egyptian rises up and declares. himself pharaoh of Egypt. And and. there's also also another attack. There's a there's an eastern. empire that rises up, but I can't think. of the name I can't think of the name of. it, but there's another two battles that. take place in Alexandria and they and. they reference again the palisades. burned down. Palisades are connected to the library, so the library gets affected. Then. in 365 AD. there is a massive tsunami off the coast.

of Crete or Cyprus. And it's so enormous. that by the time like the seismic. activity reaches Alexandria and the. waves hit Alexandria. the devastation was so dramatic that all. of the boats in the docks had crashed. onto. the roofs and of the ruins of the. toppled cities of Alexandria. There was. another historian that arrived another. name that you would you and I would. recognize and he arrived and and he.

reports that there were 50,000 people. that he knew of from the city that were. missing that were that were, you know, that had gone unreported people looking. for the bodies of these people. throughout the city. And the city is completely demolished, completely devastated. The waves came up. and crashed over the walls that. surrounded the city and toppled. everything. And it's from that exact. moment, that day in the historical time. period that we do not know where I.

believe we don't know where the library. is anymore. We don't know where the. museum is anymore. We don't know where. the mausoleum is anymore and with his. body it's gone. And myself and uh. and Told in Stone we were talking about. this while we were while we were in. Alexandria and we were thinking. probably during that time period. there were people so his his mausoleum. is underground. Well, probably you know. that water floods in and just like when. that when that when his body in his.

crappy alabaster sarcophagus he's left. with. Thank you Ptolemy X. Uh. >> [laughter]. >> when that gets flooded with that with. that salty water I think it's the salt. water or is it fresh water? But when it. gets flooded his body just. turned into just mist, you know, it's. turned into nothing. >> All those bodies. >> All those bodies just turn all those. bodies just turn into nothing. And think. about the chaos that had broken out. throughout the last centuries of all the. things we talked about this war, this. that and the other. Well, how many. 17-year-old kids do you do you know that.

were like I bet you there's not any. guards at the mausoleum. Let's go. Of course. >> So, little by little it gets picked away. and picked away and picked away and. picked away. And then when that city is. destroyed all the blocks from his. mausoleum and and all of the you know, glorious Alexandrian architecture uh. that that um Augustus used to model Rome. by the way. The the whole model of Rome. is pulled from Alexandrian architecture. and Greek architecture. But those. projects didn't begin until Augustus.

went back home uh when he got back home. from from Alexandria. And one of the. last things he says is. I when I was born I found the city a. city of mud brick I leave it a city of. marble. And um and he uh What a great. line. >> He thinks a lot of historians think that. he was inspired by what he saw in. Alexandria and that's why he starts the. building projects as soon as he gets. home. Um. but I think that most likely his body. was pulverized by the Mediterranean and. doesn't exist anymore. That's what I. think. Okay. Yeah, I I there may be some other.

some other ideas to the story like like. There's a lot of theories that it's in. St. Mark's that it's in um. What is the uh the Daniel Mosque that's. there? Is that theory? Yeah, I I've um. I haven't looked into that in in years. the the other theories but I think that. the main thing that. you have to grasp with is is the. flooding of the city, you know, because. it's isn't it is like several hundred. years later when Christianity is much. more widespread that you hear about the.

supposed place of Alexander's body. again, but you you have to you have to. grapple with. Well, what happened. when Alexandria was flooded and the. whole city is destroyed, you know? >> I'm with you. I think I don't think. anything survives that. Yeah. >> You know, boats on the roofs are crazy. I mean, you're talking 30, 40-ft waves. Mhm. Yeah, boats landing on the roof, you know, it's it's wild that the that. the lighthouse even survived that, but. it shows you how well-built that thing. really was, you know? >> Crazy. >> a.

quick break and come back and talk about. >> We got a lot to talk about still. We got. to talk about where jaguars and we have. to get to the Minoan culture somehow. Let's do it. >> Back in a minute. I want to hear about the Olmecs and. solve for me how those giant. 10, 20-ton heads get moved down a river. on a raft. Man. I wish I could solve that. I'd be I. mean, is there a solve for that?

Somewhere. If you were to ask an ancient. Olmec how it was done, I'm sure that. they they could explain it. >> Yeah. Um so, the Olmecs man, they're. uh they're one of my favorite ancient. civilizations. Why? >> [clears throat]. >> They're They're. Well, they're they're the oldest known. civilization in North America. And um. and actually, the very first ancient. monument that I ever saw that wasn't in. the United States was an Olmec head. If.

you look up the uh it's actually at the. bottom right of the screen right here. The uh the second one the one that's. just to the left of that. That guy right. there. That's the main head at La Venta. And Dr. [snorts] Barnhart and I are. walking around the uh city of. Villahermosa and we're walking on the. outside of this park. and there's this opening where you can. see into the park and we're talking. about the Olmecs and and and he's saying. he's I'm I'm looking at him to the right. and there's this lake next to us in the. park is right here and Dr. Barnhart. goes, "Look." And I look right in and. the very first ancient monument I ever.

saw outside of the United States was. that guy right there. And from that. moment that civilization I I saw the. size of the heads I saw the size of that. head and you know, it was like a silent. witness to time. How big is that head? You can't really tell from the picture. >> Oh, enormous. I mean, >> 12 ft high? My my head probably comes up. to that ridge where the helmet is. Like. just above his eyes. That's probably. I'm I'm probably like at eye level with. that. And um. that guy there probably weighs 15 20. tons or so and it's solid gray like.

basalt. It comes from the Sierra de los Tuxtlas. volcanic belt. It's probably like 90 km. away as the crow flies. But it's not. like moving something through Egypt. where all you got to do is you got to. get on the river while the while the. tide is high and and and float that baby. down the river. These guys have to go through rivers and. swamps and valleys and you know, over. hills to get to the next river. It's. just I mean, it's crazy. Um but the Olmecs. they emerge on the archaeological.

timeline as a fully fledged and. organized civilization. From the very beginning the civilization. is formed. We don't have like a um. we don't have a a a formation period. That's very strange. I know all the. ancient astronaut people are going nuts. right now. [snorts] Oh, they are. Well, It's one of those civilizations. [clears throat] that just appears. >> And and you know, this thing gets. this thing gets thrown that that idea. gets thrown towards ancient Egypt a lot. But in reality that that's actually not.

the case. I mean, if the pyramids are. around 24 25 2600 BC, well, we have. about 800 years of known history leading. up to that point. Now, the technology kind of just appears. out of nowhere, but the civilization is. there. They're forming for a long time. Yep. We don't have any evidence of. anything that's in any sort of formative. period at all whatsoever before these. heads arrive. Where where was the center. of the Olmec society? Uh that like that.

It's weird how Mexico is broken up. because southern Mexico is actually like. in the east and you know, it's Mexico is. a weirdly shaped country, but uh south. central Mexico like Veracruz and Tabasco. and a little bit of Oaxaca. Um so, you. know, kind of where Mexico comes down. and it gets thin at this point, right. there. Um so, this it's like this swampy. hot, humid. flat area. It's It's not the most.

appealing place to live with which is. funny because that's actually the place. where most civilizations form. It's like. the least likely place, but when you. think about it, it makes sense. Isolation. there's nobody that's vying for their. land. There's nobody that's going to try. to come kill them for their land for. their lands. So, they get to live in. this quiet, isolated existence and build. and build and build and build and build. their wealth until boom, you know, they. have arrived. But, they arrive at about 2000 BC. and we don't have anything before that. I mean, we don't have like bodies, we. don't have sites.

We don't have archaeology, pottery. We've got nothing before that. They just. boom, they're there. And then they just. disappear just as quickly? So, they they [clears throat] increase in. power, we think from um. from 2000 BC and then somewhere between. about 1600. to 900 BC is like the peak of their. power. They they uh. We don't but we don't know if they're. city-states, we don't know if they are. an empire, we don't know if they're. clusters of kingdoms. We have no idea.

We just know that they had let's call it. like a dozen sites. Three major sites, but in all probably about a dozen sites. But we don't even know what they call. themselves, right? We have no idea what. they call themselves. We don't know what. language they spoke. So when the Aztecs. found those sites, were they already. ancient? So the Aztec Well, we don't. know that the Aztecs ever found the. sites. They. they found. We know that the Aztecs had had. artifacts that come from the Olmec. world. Like. you have these Olmec jade little.

pendants that we think would have been. worn as like a necklace around the. chest. That's the idea. Um the Aztecs. had those. We found those in. Tenochtitlan, but we don't know at all. that the Aztecs. actually found these Olmec sites. It's. very possible because there are some uh. So the the the first Olmec the may first. major Olmec uh cultural center that. rises up is called San Lorenzo. The full name of it is San Lorenzo. Tenochtitlan because. way out in these fields.

um. So like way out here in this field, there's this. the ancient city the ancient Olmec city. And then like a 15-minute drive away, there's this modern Mexican city called. San Lorenzo Tenochtitlan that's built in. the ruins of the Aztec city. So they're. not that far apart from each other. Right. But we just don't know if the. Aztecs knew that the origins of. Mesoamerica itself was like. you know. I don't know an hour walk away out in. the out in the out into the bush because. it would have all probably been grown. over and forgotten.

So. and [clears throat] you have to keep in. mind the Aztecs the height of their. their empire is 3,000 years later. So Wow. it's possible that the Aztecs. never knew that the Olmecs had ever. existed or known anything about them at. all. It's possible. Uh one of the interesting things is that. we know that the Aztecs found the city. of Teotihuacan. Um and that Teotihuacan. had been abandoned for about a thousand. years at this point. And uh and they. thought that it was the the city of the. birthplace of the gods, you know. So,

yeah, it's crazy how much stuff gets. like abandoned and forgotten in. Mesoamerica and rediscovered later. And. in the history and the density of. Mesoamerica is unlike anywhere else in. the ancient world. It is. vast and dense. There's nowhere in. Mesoamerica that that was that went. uninhabited. But, again, the Olmecs are. the origins of that whole world. But, the interesting thing about the. Olmecs is. you look through all the Mesoamerican. cultures that come later, and they all. have like vaguely similar pantheons of.

gods, you know, you've got Chac, the. rain god, and Chac, you also [snorts]. have the rain god in so many different. other cultures, and you've got. Kukulcan, which is the serpent god, and. Quetzalcoatl, which is this god, and you. know, the only one that actually of this. massive pantheon of Mesoamerican gods, the only one that we can see in the. Olmec world is actually the feathered. serpent. Kukulcan or Quetzalcoatl is depicted on. Monument 19 in the Olmec world. But, it. seems like the Olmec religion is more. based on shamanism and everything. So,

it's like a it's almost like a. pre-Mesoamerican. civilization. They Do we see feathered. serpent later anywhere? Oh, yeah, yeah. So, >> that's very random to put feathers on a. snake. Yeah, well, it plays into this. whole dragon fascination that has men. So, um. it it is so it is such an odd thing. So, the the first time we see it is around a. thousand BC. Uh Olmec Monument 19. It was found at. the city of of La Venta. It's on display. in Mexico City today. Probably my.

favorite Olmec monument. Such a particular. depiction. And. It's Monument 19. What do you like about. it? What's so special? Is that it right. there? No, no. So, that's that's. Quetzalcoatl at Teotihuacan, which is. interesting because at Teotihuacan, we. don't actually know. Quetzalcoatl is an. Aztec word, but the Aztecs adopted the. feathered serpent. The the. also had it, but we don't know what the. Teotihuacanos called it, just like we. don't know what the Olmecs Oh. 2,000 years earlier, right? So, think. about this.

The Aztecs find Teotihuacan been. abandoned for around 1,000 years. Okay, that's two. Teotihuacan was abandoned 2,000 years. after the Olmec period. Like the the the. stretches of time we're talking about. are enormous. >> I don't think people really fully grasp. how much time that is. Well, and that's. kind of the thing is is one of as one of. the things as I've. Oh, there's the monument. >> There we go. Yeah, yeah. So, look at the. Look at the art style of its face, how. proportional it is, and how. aesthetically pleasing it is. This is. like professional artistry even by.

today's standards, right? How does this. appear out of the ether of time? And. this is made with stone tools somehow? Yeah. >> And there's the the the omnipresent. purse. Yeah, you got you got the you got. the handbag guy. And um it it's it's. fascinating. He's being carried by You. can like he the the serpent is wrapped. around him, and the serpent's carrying. >> I see that, yeah. So, where does this where does this come. from? Like how do ancient people first. come up with this.

iconography? And, you know, this kind of. art style, the ability to be able to. let's say. to have the economy developed to be able. to commission things like this. Because. the Olmecs don't have this kind of stone. in their land. It's being exported from. outside from outside of their land. And that's been traced? We know where. that stone is from? >> yeah. The Sierra de los Tuxtlas volcanic. belt. Um and so I it's a it's a. peripheral obscure culture that was in. control of that area, but the Olmecs are.

paying to have that quarried, and then. either the Olmecs are bringing it, or. that other culture is bringing it. I. mean, we don't really know. And this is. supposed to be pre-agriculture, which. just doesn't work. Cuz a society would need to be separated. at this point. Oh, no, this this here is. well into agriculture Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, the So the Olmecs they're. getting So. So the the Coatzacoalcos River is one of. the largest rivers. Like it goes from I. I could I could be wrong here, but it it. might connect the oceans.

Okay. You know, between the Or Or I should say. the Gulf like I. You may be able to At least I know that. it cuts down that massive narrow area. because you have uh. you have Olmec sites that dot it all the. way from the Gulf Coast all the way to. the Pacific along that Coatzacoalcos. these really fertile river valleys. And. so the Olmecs. >> I didn't know they went that far west. Oh, yeah, yeah. We have We have Olmec um. cities on the on the Pacific Ocean like. right next to the beach. >> know that. This is a empire.

Probably. My guess My guess is it's an. empire. Nobody calls it that. We We just. call it a culture because we don't even. know We don't even have the slightest. understanding of how their government. operated, right? Um but we know that. they're super powerful and that power. might guess must have come from how lush. the uh how lush the valley is because. I I've stood over it before and I've. taken a picture isolated of just the. Coatzacoalcos Valley at the base of uh. the city of San Lorenzo. And one of my. buddies who was there with me who's also. been to Egypt, I showed him that.

picture. I said, "If I told you that was. in Egypt, you would think it was cuz it. looks just like Egypt." You look at. photos of the Mesopotamian Valley of you. know, the the Fertile Crescent, looks. exactly the same. It's just that fertile. valley where things can grow just at a. level no one else can. So the Olmecs. they're profiting off of all of that and. they become. the first emergent civilization in. Mesoamerica. But again, it's like. instant. It just more than any other. culture in the ancient world, far more.

It's not even comparable because by. definition the the the Olmecs appear on. the historical record fully formed. Not. like, "Oh, well, you You it was super. fast." Like I just I'm just saying that. No, I'm not just saying it. That's. actually the way it is in the. archaeological record. There's no. formative period. They just boom, they're there. Do we know genetically. who they were? Yeah, well, I mean, all. you can do is you can go to the most I. and they've done this. You can go to the. most isolated like indigenous villages.

in Mexico today. You've got these little. little tiny towns where people still. live in huts and in the same way that. ancient people have been doing for. thousands of years. There's Maya people. still living in the traditional Maya. huts. So, you get their DNA and yeah, it's it's like ancient American DNA. connected to uh. uh connected to the people who came. across the the Bering Strait. It's the. same sort of DNA. >> and Polynesian. >> know what's interesting is like it's. it's actually southern Chinese. It's not. even northern Chinese, it's southern. Chinese DNA. That's a whole mystery like.

what caused people from southern China. to migrate and not people from northern. China or north of that, but it's. southern Chinese DNA that's at the root. of Native Americans. Um yeah, it's. interesting. Uh and the Olmec people are. born with um birthmarks that come from. uh that come from Mongolia. They they. got these little the babies will have. birthmarks like on their butts and then. the birthmark will disappear. That's a Mongolian trait. It happens to. Mongolian babies, too. I never heard. that. >> Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure that it that.

that's right. Dr. Barnhart, he did he. documented this. Um it it is a birthmark. that disappears, but I think it's on. their butt. And um yeah, so that so they. are uh you know, they're just the. descendants of the people that came. across. either with the Clovis or after them or, you know, some point in far distant past, but they. they as far as we know, they are uh. Native American. But what's really. interesting about Mexico. is the genetic diversity is just crazy. You can actually look at people from.

different parts of Mexico and you can. tell a difference. And uh you know, we. think of Native Americans as being this. monolithic people. They all sort of look. the same. But the deeper I've gone into. it, the more I've realized like, "No, no, no. Comanche's look a lot different. than Cherokee. The Cherokee look a lot. different than the Iroquois Iroquois. people. Natives from California look a lot. different." Well, it's half the planet. >> I know, but you just don't you know, you. don't think about it, right? We have. like these implicit biases where we kind. of over simplify uh other places.

for it to make sense in our mind, you. know what I mean? And um and in Mexico. in particular, man, Maya people look so. much different than Zapotecs or. Wahakans. And those all look different. than the Olmecs. The Olmecs are so The. Olmecs have the roundish puffy faces, and they actually legitimately have. that. They don't really look like uh. they have these skinny The Maya have. these skinny long angular faces. The. Olmecs are exactly the opposite of that. And there were I should have gotten a.

photo of it, but I I didn't want to ask. the guy. I was. on a flight. into Veracruz. And the guy sitting next to me was an. Olmec. I don't know if he knew that, but. he was an Olmec. Like if I turn his face. into stone, it would be an Olmec head. He was this just this big sort of. Samoan-looking guy, you know, real puffy. puffy face, big nose, big lips, big. eyes. And he's sitting there, and I just. I was like, "I want to sneak a photo of. this guy to so I would have so I would. have proof, but.

>> on him. >> They still look that way today. Um What do we What do we think that hat. is? That helmet that the heads are. wearing? I mean, I don't buy the ball. court. >> [clears throat]. >> thing. It just. >> Oh, that is that is the depiction of of. ball court players. >> right? I think I think it's a fusion uh of of. that because we know that the ball game. is at the central is at the center of. Mesoamerican mythology. Like, you know, you got you got the hero twins that are. playing the ball game, and uh you know,

the ball game goes goes to the the. center of their primordial worldview. It's tied to the very essence of the. universe itself. And I think that it's more than just. like. oh, they're ball game players and it's. about the game. I think it's about like. that I think it's about like the order. of the entire universe itself. And probably also about looking tough. What's the most Do you know Do you know. the most common way that communists. depict themselves? As a gladiator. Yeah, yeah. So, I think it's I think it's a. similar thing to that. That is.

>> Oh, that That's interesting. >> I think it's a similar thing to that. that they they depict themselves because. people, you know, you know, normal Roman. people would actually glorify the. gladiators because it was so cool, but. there was a weird paradox there because. it was like this show of physical. display, but yet the people are slaves. So, you're like idolizing a slave, right? So, inherently, we can't help but. idolize athletes or like physical. competition or whatever. So, I think. that. if those guys really are kings, and I.

think that they might be. I think that. they are. Well, it's a lot of resources. Yeah, I I think that it's I think that. it's more than just the game. It's It's. the fact that the game is infused with. the culture, um, and their and their religion all. together. And also. by proverbially presenting yourself as a. gladiator, you look cool. You do? >> So, so so that's my thought is that. maybe it's all of these things put. together. In In our Western way of.

thinking because we're so platonic, like. we you and I, the way that we think. comes from the Athenians. They they're. categorical in nature. Well, so we've got these categories here. Either. When you're thinking of Native. Americans, either you have to like. comprehend the fact that like we're. either getting rid of those categories. or we are inverting the categories where. they're complete they're the actual. opposite of ours. And the way that they. compute and merge things together is. totally different than the way that we.

do. So, it's like. >> you mean? It's like we're. The feathered serpent is is a perfect is. a perfect example here. Um. They know. Native Americans know that the feathered. serpent is not real. It is an amalgamation of different. esoteric, spiritual, almost like.

philosophical parts of their world. And what the feathered serpent. represents. Native Americans don't have any problem. with taking multiple elements of their. natural world, infusing them together in. a way that wouldn't traditionally make. any sense to us, but in a. in a way that makes sense to them. And. so, what that feathered serpent probably. what I think that it represents, there's. no real academic consensus on this, it's. just me and Dr. Barnhart. bullshitting for years about these.

ideas. Um I think it I think it's an. esoteric. symbolism of the conquering of the three. realms. A snake is born underground. Yep. It ri- it rises up. So, it's born. in it's born in the underworld, it rises. up and conquers the mid-realm. And what. I think that Mesoamericans, maybe they. originally were seeing, but they knew. that these were actually two separated. things because of we can see on the. Olmec Monument 19 that they knew.

I'll tell I'll tell you. Probably like 10,000 years ago. Mesoamericans are seeing what's called. the quetzal bird fly around. And it's. this bird with this little bitty body. and these two wings that come off the. body and this massive tail. So, what it. looks like is a snake cuz you have this. long tail and this little body here. Looks like a snake and you add the wings. on to it. And so and you could look up. something like you could look up like a. quetzal bird flying. And so it looks. like a snake that's flying with wings.

coming out of its head. That's why these. wings come out on Monument 19. That's. why the wings come out of the head. It's. actually the same thing in the mound. builder world. They also there's also a. dragon. up here in like the United States. Um and um. what I Yeah, so there you go. So that. tail is actually much much longer than. that. Um you just can't tell by this. angle. But it looks like wings coming. out of a and I've seen one quetzal bird. in in in person. I walked into. a temple in the Yucatan and a quetzal.

bird flew straight over my head out the. out of the temple. But it looks like a. snake with wings. But we know that they. didn't actually think it was a snake. with wings because if you go back to. Monument 19, there are two quetzal birds. depicted on the monument. So they. weren't being fooled. What I think it [snorts] is is it's a um. The feathered serpent is a symbol of the. fact that whoever this person is, whoever the ruler is, this person that. is essentially summoning the power of. the quetzal bird or of of Quetzalcoatl.

or the feathered serpent, it's it's like. a s-. it's symbolic of the fact that this. person is fully awakened and they have. conquered all three levels of existence. They've been born in the underworld, they came to the mid-world, and they. ascended probably through hallucinogenic. practices or something like that. They. ascended to where their soul is able to. fly like like this dragon, which is. basically what this feathered serpent. is. So they never they knew that that. thing didn't actually exist, but they. created it as a symbol of almost like.

awakening its itself if that makes a. spiritual awakening, conquering all. three levels of existence, maybe. conquering death. That may That might be. what it is. Flying in the air. It's. really hard to uh. It's really hard for us to try to like. get in their mind and understand what. they were thinking. But that's what I. say that they're. their ways of categorizing things and. understanding the world is inverse to. the way that we think in a lot of ways. and it's. it's not it's not natural to us to think. like a like a Native American does, you. know? It's Well, you brought up dragons.

and um. what makes it hard for me to try to. define a winged serpent is because it. shows up everywhere. So. Yeah, it does. Was it really a. thing? >> [clears throat]. >> I don't know, man. I don't know. You. know, I've seen the argument that's like. um. we have these massive um. >> [snorts]. >> I've seen the argument before that. that not all the times do wings in. fossils. um. not all the times are they are they.

preserved in fossils and that the wings. the cartilage that they're that they're. made out of could disintegrate and so we. could be finding animals that existed. anytime between 50,000 years ago to 50. million years ago or more. No, definitely like 250 million years ago, maybe before the time of the dinosaurs. that there could be fossils that we've. had and we've created an entire animal. around it. But actually that animal had. wings at one point in time, you know? >> And feathers, And feathers, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so many of the dinosaurs had. had feathers, which seems obvious cuz we. we paint them all as being like fully.

reptilian, [snorts]. but birds are reptiles, too, and they. also have feathers, you know? So. Yeah, the the serpent I can get around. Flying [snorts] is a little harder, but. you I can see it, but the breathing. fire, that's so I don't know where they. got that from. Yeah, and and um I did a. little tracing of the um. of the dragon through some parts of the. ancient world recently and it I think. that the. I think that the breathing fire thing. comes in the Middle Ages a lot.

And so I wonder if the Middle Ages are. like very far removed from. the pure dragon. Like if like if we if. we. if we wanted like a pure example of the. dragon, I would probably point to. ancient China and Mesoamerica. Maybe ancient India, too. Um, and. I wonder if. you know, the other thing I wonder is. there are so many people who go down to. the Amazon and they'll take in ayahuasca. and they'll have a vision of a snake. like a like a like a an anaconda.

swallowing them. I have a I have a buddy. who told me that an anaconda swallowed. him while he was on ayahuasca. And it. wrapped around his body and whispered in. his ear. It told him to be quiet and it. told him, "I'm going to kill you. I love. you, though." Or something like that. "I. love you. Now I'm going to kill you.". And it would swallow him. And it was. almost like it was like spiritual. awakening. Sometimes I wonder. maybe dragons are real, but uh there's. only one way to access them. And dragons.

and dragons are always. >> Maybe they're real, just not really. here. And maybe dragon and dragons are always. associated with um with. >> rulers. Like the Chinese emperor, he. wore the dragon pendant. He was a. representative of the dragon. It seems. like in Mesoamerica, you know, in the. later Maya world, the the that Kukulcan. is. the Maya ruler is the human embodiment. of Kukulcan and the Aztec ruler was the. human embodiment of Quetzalcoatl. It was.

probably the same thing in Teotihuacan, too. Which is where the Aztecs get that from. cuz probably the Teotihuacanos still. live, but like dispersed and their. mythology carries down and the Aztecs. absorb it and kind of reinvigorate it, but. um Was it a positive symbol like it was. in ancient China? >> [snorts]. >> Cuz dragon was a positive symbol for. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But not in Norse mythology or everywhere. else. >> No. No. No. It wasn't. Norse mythology. is Yeah, that's a because the the the. dragon is eating the entire universe in. Norse in Norse mythology.

Um, yeah, it's it's interesting. No, but it. Yeah, I mean it was a. >> [laughter]. >> It's funny to say a positive thing in. Mesoamerica. Dr. Barnhart and I were in. we're in Mexico City at the museum and. we're looking up at this you know, so. they have they'll have like modern. indigenous people who. you know, still carry on the artistic. traditions, but they'll have these. massive murals painted and so there's a. there's this mural that's like a modern. interpretation of the whole pantheon of. Maya gods interacting with each other.

And Dr. Barnhart he's like he's like he. goes he goes You know what's. interesting? Where's all the love in Mesoamerica? And. [laughter] cuz it's all about like death. and war and destruction. And he goes he. goes their their whole. religion their whole culture is so. macabre and dark and about killing. people and sacrifices and war and he's. like. where's all the love? There might you. know, he's he's alluding to the fact. that there are levels of their culture.

that are invisible to us. It was. definitely there. You know, these. weren't like dark brooding evil people, but when you say was it positive? It's. like that's funny in Mesoamerica. It's. hard to know if anything's positive. Yeah. But yeah, I mean I would say it's a. positive thing for the civilization. itself. Like if your ruler is the human. embodiment of a freaking dragon. Yeah, you know, you you you would like to. think you're being ruled over by. somebody who's extremely powerful, right? But the dragon especially in China the. dragon is not a foe. It's not a monster.

to be slayed. It's uh. is an embodiment of. well, in China is actually the dragon is. actually in. an amalgamation. of all the animals of their world. So. it's like a it's like a a tiger and a. camel and eagles and all these animals. brought in together into this. strange creature. Um but yeah, you know, I I often wonder how many times. in the ancient world the answer to so. many of our questions.

can only be acquired by. leaving this world. You know, it you can. only answer the question by. going through the. by going through the mysteries, to be. honest with you. That's actually what I. think it is. That like the cult of the. cult of Eleusis, the Egyptian mysteries. that Herodotus writes about. He writes. about it all the time and then when he. gets initiated into the mysteries, he. doesn't write about it anywhere because. he can't he can't reveal it. And so. you know the Chinese had the mysteries. You know the Maya had them. I've stood.

in the chambers where they're performed. And you And it all starts with the. Olmecs. There's actually a depiction of. one of the And when I say mysteries for. people watching, it's different than. like. how were the pyramids built? A mystery. is. almost like the religious organization. that safeholds sacred. cosmological, scientific, astronomical, astrological. knowledge that's all fused together and. it These are the people who preserve and.

safe keep and try to uphold the very. universe itself by carrying out these. rituals and you know, we don't exactly. know what they were doing but. >> No, but you're describing like a. familial shamanistic culture that you're. passing down the secrets of the. universe. So so those So those are. called the mysteries. And every ancient. culture has them and rather than most. archaeologists who look back and. you know, no archaeologist going to like. openly say, "Oh yeah, that's the way I. feel." But I think that I think so many. of them just implicitly think that. ancient people.

were. naive and that their ancient religions. were just like hokey and they were a way. to manipulate the common man and that it. was all sort of like a you know, people. coming and leaving. offerings to dead people like leaving. food. They they say that the priests. would just take the food just to feed. themselves. Like it was all. it was all hoax but man, look throughout. the entire ancient world at a 1000 BC, the entire ancient world is populated. with massive civilizations all doing.

roughly the same thing. >> That's true. And um. And I don't think that that's just. because all these people are dumb. I. think that they. One of the one of the coolest quotes I. ever heard was uh from the Professor. Jeremy McInerney and he was talking. about the Temple of Apollo at Delphi and. he was he's like, "I'm not going to get. overly into this in in this lecture and. uh and he's like he's like, but I'm just. going to say this. I don't mean this in. any sort of metaphorical way or. uh. I don't mean it in a symbolic or he said.

he said, "I don't mean this in any sort. of symbolic or metaphorical way. I mean. this in a literal way and I'll just. leave it at that. When the Oracle of Delphi was possessed. by the essence of Apollo, she was. actually possessed by the by the essence. of Apollo.". Uh he just leaves it at that. This is. like a credentialed world-class Greek. archaeologist and he just leaves it at. that. I've never ever heard him. extrapolate on that before and I I don't. know what I don't know what exactly he's. getting at there. Um I don't know if if he means that So. you mean the gases within the mountain. that gave her visions? Yeah, yeah. I.

I think he just means Yeah, I think he. just means that. that. I don't think he he's saying that he. actually believes that Apollo is real. I think he's just saying. that the Oracle was actually chan- is. there's something real there's a real. element to that and he just kind of. leaves it at that. >> that's a psychedelic experience. >> Yeah, yeah. And um you know, and the. question is when you when you're taking. part in psychedelics, are you actually.

interacting with something or are we all. wired the same way to interact with. plants the same way or when you interact. with that plant, are you stepping into. something else? >> What do you think? Have you taken the. journey yet? >> Oh, no. I mean not I not I I have a I. have a very low tolerance to like. cannabis and so, you know, in in. extremely strong doses that that's been. enough for me. You know, you're going to. have to walk the walk at some point. >> Yeah, yeah. See, the thing for me is I. don't want to go visit the serpent until. it calls me. I feel like if I do that,

I'm going to like. mess up my brain in some way. I got to. wait. >> Probably smart. >> Yeah, I got to wait till I I got to wait. till it calls me. But I I will do it. I will do it at some. point, but it just has to be the right. the right time. Right now, I don't feel. the need to do it. Um. But uh. Yeah, I've I've. My friends and I talk about this a lot. and um. I need to I need to put together a. presentation like really put in my. thoughts together on this, too, cuz I've. I've juggled it around for so long.

But I'm I'm comfortable saying it. I I. think that. I think that like when people go down to. the Amazon and they say that they meet. some kind of female Amazonian goddess or. they interact with the snake that coils. around them and speaks to them. I think in some way. that is. two things at once. Like in the same way. that like. it Are we all just Forrest Gump has a. has a great line a. deep profound line where he says he's.

like he's like I wonder if we're all. just out here on this, you know, rock. kind of like floating through the air or. if it's all destined to be and he's. like, I think maybe it's both in some. way. That's what I think. I think that I. think that the cosmos. is so much more intertwined. and so much more purposeful and larger. and uh than than we can. possibly fathom. And I think that. when people are interacting with things. like that that are on the other side, I wouldn't be surprised if it's real. I.

wouldn't be surprised if if these things. live if there's if there are conscious. beings that exist in some kind of other. parallel dimensions that you're able to. interact with and maybe those beings are. the universe itself or it's a reflection. of us, but Well, do you believe in God? Yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah. >> So, how how do we square both? I think that God is uh I think that God. is a lot more um. I think that God's a lot more. complicated than uh like a man floating.

on a white cloud in in, you know, some. Renaissance painting. I agree. Uh I. think that. when the Bible talks about like angels. being cast out of heaven and everything, you know, I we always have this idea of. like demons being this antithesis being. that's just pure evil. Well, I mean. I don't feel like it's unlikely that. some of these ethereal beings exist in. this gray zone that want to be like. maybe they want to be moral or they want. to I'm really getting way off on this, but you know, maybe maybe they maybe.

they want to be moral and maybe they. want to be actually worshipped as a. moral god. And so, you can go down to. the Amazon, you can interact with those. You can interact with those things, and. they're they're really there. Um but I think that I I I agree with. like um. the Greek philosophers, they thought. that logos was at like the core of of. the universe. And that even with all. these other gods, there was something. that existed before that, which was. logic itself. It was it was it was. it was reason. And that reason itself.

may have had. they personified it or we personify it, but they see something at the core of. all of existence. that actively made decisions that were. logical, that created everything. And is that thing conscious or not? It's. probably not conscious in the way that. you and I think about it being. conscious, but it's. I think it's real. And that's what I. think that God is. Um. But yeah, you know, I wrestle with with.

like. you know, what do I think of. interdimensional beings? I'm not talking. about aliens, but like, you know, spiritual beings and how people interact. with them. I Sometimes I. Sometimes I wrestle with that and like. Christianity, but uh Well, people are. seeing the same things under DMT. experiences and. they are seeing the same things. Maybe. it's cuz our brains are the same. or maybe they're seeing something. Yeah, well, and then you know, when I. when I have a straight-up vision about.

my grandfather's death and my last. moment with him, where what is that? You. know, that's not. that's not a coincidence of me being. wired like a human, you know, that's No, that's you connected to something. bigger. >> That's That's me connected to to. something larger. All ancient people. felt this way. All ancient people. um. you know, were were were I don't know if. religious is the right word, but. spiritual. They I think that ancient. people were very. open and connected to something that.

we're so like. calloused and cut off from these days. Our world has for all of the benefits. that. modernity has brought to us with. science, everything has also become so. sterile. And I think that there's a. there's a great quote. I don't know who. who said it, but uh he says he's like. he's like the first sip from the glass. of science will make you an atheist, but. at the bottom God's waiting for you. And. uh you know, you there are so many. people like Stephen Hawking. I don't. think he admitted at the end of his life. that uh.

that that God was real, but one of the. last. uh something he talks about in one of. his last publications was that he could. It was something along the lines of like. he couldn't see any other way. uh other than the fact that the universe. was able to consciously make decisions. on its own. That's God to me. Prove him wrong. >> Yeah, yeah. That's That's God to me. So, um. Yeah, but it's it's tough to it's tough. to juggle these things and rationalize. them together. But I think you're right. I think native people, especially in the.

Americas, just were much closer to. whatever that realm is. Oh, yeah, man. >> they respected it. >> there's a there's a great book that's. written by um. Oh, I'm forgetting his name, but um it'll. come to me in just a moment. But uh he. was a Spaniard that was born in Cusco in. the. mid-early. 1500s. He [snorts] was the daughter of a. wealthy Spaniard and uh and I'm sorry, he was the son of a wealthy Spaniard and.

the son of an Inca princess. Um very famous book uh but it's called a. royal account of the Incas. And it's basically him I I In his early. 20s, he left and went back to Spain to. like reclaim his family's wealth and. everything. And when he's an old man, he. writes about his experiences. um. growing up in Cusco and all the things. that he learned. And uh man, Cusco is an. amazing place. Have you been? No. Just think about it right now. I'm I'm. going back in the summer. I just can't. wait to go back. It's one of the one of. the greatest cities on the planet.

>> Is it That's And that's the heart of the. Incan Empire, yes? >> Yeah, yeah, it's the navel of the Inca. world. And um. you know, they they thought it was the. like the center of the universe itself, you know? It's. There's no place that's like Cusco. It's. amazing. And the people there are so. nice. The Inca people and and like just. really, [snorts] really amazing place. Um. >> [clears throat]. >> But uh. >> It's It proves very open to excavation. and their history and all of that as. opposed to. >> yeah, yeah. Well, for a little bit. there, I was the um I was the American. representative to uh to get funding for.

the excavation of the Chinkana tunnels. Wouldn't with the when you the MEC? Uh not not through them. It was just me. working directly with uh Cusco's. Ministry of Antiquities. So, we were. able to we were able to secure some of. the funding for for uh the excavation. that they have for the tunnels that's. there. And we kind of got that off of. the ground. And so, I was like the. English- speaking um. ambassador for them just trying to get. funding to come in to to get the project. off the ground. And now it's going, so. we're going to.

uh I'm going to go in and check in with. them um this summer, but so uh um. So this So this uh guy who had grown up. in uh in Cusco, late in his life in. Spain, he's writing about all the things. that he learned about. He's one of the. sources for the uh for the legendary. tunnels that are underneath the city as. well. Um he's got He He alludes to them. and talks about. >> heard of these. This is um the. mysterious Incas or subway tunnels. Wow, so they. >> Wow, they. I've never heard it referred to as. subway tunnels, but uh Clickbait. Yeah,

probably it was uh it was it was. connected to the to the to the Inca. mysteries. You know, you you would they. would probably go under the tunnels and. who knows what would go on down there. and then they Do you could emerge up at. Sacsayhuamán? Like you could go down in. Sacsayhuamán, you go down into the. mountain and you would emerge inside the. city. We don't know if they're if. they're natural tunnels that were. modified or if the Inca themselves made. it, but we know that they were real. Um. But anyways, so he writes about these. tunnels and he also writes about He. tells us how the Incas, which Inca is.

actually the term of the ruler. Uh you. know, you. That's the name for the Inca emperor, right? Um so you had like Manco Inca, goes on and on and on. I didn't know. that. >> But when it talks about uh. when the. emperor himself would consult with the. sun god, kind of like the pharaoh, Mhm. the teachings that the sun god. instructed the Inca emperor to have to. be a good and moral emperor, which was.

such an important thing in all these. ancient civilizations. It's such an. important thing to be a good and moral. person that's in line. Garcilaso de la Vega. There we go. Um I. would have forgot that one, too. >> Royal Royal commentary of the Incas. Yeah, I know, it's a that's a big one. So, um. but [clears throat] he gives us an. account of uh of what he was taught from. his mother's side of the family about, you know, the the early philosophy of. the Inca kings. And I about a year ago when we got back. from um No, for my birthday my wife got.

me. the original printing of that book like. hardback copy. Yeah, it's Original? Well, well I I don't know why I said. original. Um. They were brought to the US in like the. early 1900s and there was a printing of. them then. Yeah, so. um. So. the original American one they were made. in New York. It's really really cool. It. like deteriorates in my hands every time. I hold it but. so I'm flipping through the pages and I. read the philosophy of of like the. founding of the Inca world. And um.

And I'm reading this to her and I tell. her I'm like I'm like how similar does. that sound to Christianity? How similar. does that sound? And she was she had. just come with me to to. to Cusco. She loves the Peruvian people. and um. You know, you could just see how kind. that they were and it's almost like. you know, it was like they were. connected to goodness. They're just. good-hearted people. And. and I was telling her I was like I was. like. I was like it just doesn't make sense to.

me that if that if God's real that he. didn't have a relationship with these. people. If if these if these teachings seem so. similar to everything we know you know. what goodness is. You know what it means. to be good. You can. you can feel it when when like there's a. reason that all these philosophers come. up with these rules of life and ways to. treat each other because inherently we. know what's good and what's not and you. have this and if you're connected to. that, that's what I feel like you being. connected to God is. I.

Cuz we don't need the 10 Commandments. We already know. >> [clears throat]. >> Yeah, and and you know and you know the. reality is there's no sense in even. trying to have an argument for morality. if you don't believe in something higher. than just humanity. You there's no. there's nothing you can come up there's. no actual argument philosophical. argument you can come up with for why. anybody should even care about how we. treat each other if you don't believe. anything higher than this. three-dimensional realm. >> That's true. You know, there you can you. can try and you And the only reason they.

try is because they feel it, too. We all. feel the pull to be, you know, the pull. to be good. We know what that means. And. um. >> I I believe very few atheists are truly. atheist down deep. I think everyone. believes something. I don't want to speak for everybody, but. I think there are a lot of people who. >> [clears throat]. >> say, "I don't believe in God." They kind. of believe in something. Yeah, yeah. That's That's all of my. interactions I've had with with people. who don't believe in God, but then you. really start talking to them about it. and they're like, "Well, okay. Well, yeah. I mean, I Yeah, I recognize. there's there's got to be something.

that's like more than all, you know, you'll get that." Um. but I think that's how everybody is. because we all recognize it. There's so. many things about our existence. I. actually think it feels A few years ago. I had this I had this thought that I was. like. it feels so much more likely. that you and I. were always intended to exist. and that our and that our existence is. not accidental. That feels so much more likely than you.

and I just being some of the luckiest. beings to ever exist. You know what I. mean? >> I do. >> It's actually more likely that we were. always supposed to exist. And I think. that that could be explained as simply. as when the universe erupts. and, you know, like the beginning of. time, say the Big Bang. There's this massive explosion and this. launch. >> Expansive nothing. I think that all the threads of time. already existed in that moment. Time. can't exist without light. Those two. things Those two things work together.

Um. >> We were all touching. We were all. together at some point. >> matter can't be created or destroyed. >> Right. And so all of time was compressed. into the size of a pinhead. And those. threads already existed and now they're. just. They're expanding out across the. universe, but everything that was. already going to happen was born in that. moment. There's nothing that's that's up. to chance. It all existed from the very. beginning of time. That makes so much. more sense to me than this idea that. like the things that happen just happen,

whatever whatever. I think everything. that happens was already determined from. the very second creation existed, if. that makes sense. >> It does. Yeah. Yeah, cuz we're all. connected. Um tell me your theory about the. were-jaguars. >> [snorts]. >> I don't I don't want to forget that one. Yeah, [clears throat] yeah. So, So, this is actually where um And then. we'll see if we can get to Atlantis. Yeah, yeah. So, this is where Dr. Barnhart and I we probably, I don't. know, we might disagree with each other on. this, but it's. it doesn't really matter. Um. >> It's actually called a were-jaguar.

Were-jaguar. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> So, it's really like a werewolf. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Man, we've got werewolves. and were-jaguars and were-tigers and I. think there's a were-hippo out there. somewhere. Yeah, yeah. I I I got to do a. video at some point on on all the weres. and uh these different human, you know, fusions with these creatures. But. So, my first introduction to the. were-jaguar was um. Well, it was it was actually the day. before I was at Palenque for the first. time with uh Dr. Barnhart. If you go to.

see Palenque, the likelihood is you'll. have to land in Villahermosa and there. is where you can go to La Venta Park. where a bunch of these uh. where a bunch of these Olmec monuments. were like rescued when uh. I think it was Pemex was taking over The. oil company? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was was taking over a. lot of um Mexican land and one of them. was the archaeological site of La Venta. They thought they were just going to. pulverize the whole thing. So, uh one of.

the wealthy patrons of the city of. Villahermosa. bought all of those or maybe he bought. them or he did something he he paid for. them all to be transported to. Villahermosa and put in this huge park. So, he's like a It's like a local local. local hero. Yeah. And. it's an amazing [clears throat] park, one of my favorite parks in the world. And it's also a little zoo as well. It's. really cool. So, he and I visited that. before Palenque, and I've been back like. four or five times now. I've been across. the Olmec world like maybe maybe four. times now. And um.

And what's really interesting, and I. tell people this every time I I'll take. like we'll have students who sign up to. go on a Maya Exploration Center, that's. our organization, MEC. We'll have. students that will sign up to go on like. these educational tours. And so, I'll. tell them at the on the first day I'll. be like, "What do you think of when you. think of the Olmecs?" They say head. They'll say the heads. I'll say, "By the. time you leave this, when you think of. the Olmecs, you'll think of a. ware-jaguar." It won't even be close. You'll think of a ware-jaguar. Yeah, because. there 17 known basalt Olmec heads, and.

there are three more that are sandstone. that Dr. Barnhart and I we publicized to. like the popular audience just a few. years ago because no one had ever seen. them. He and I hadn't even seen them in. person. There was this little There's. this little museum that's been like. closed at La Venta for years because I. guess like rain damage, and they. reopened it back up, and the floor was. like still covered in water, and. so we're walking around this museum in. like inch-deep water. He and I open up. these doors, and there's these three. massive sandstone Olmec heads standing. in front of us that are far larger in.

size, not weight, but in size compared. to all the other Olmec heads. And he and. I look at each other, and we go, "What. the hell are these?" We'd never seen. them before. And um They're larger than. what's in the park? >> Yeah, yeah, they're Yeah, oh, it's. crazy. It It's really crazy. Um and. there are Olmec heads spread throughout. Mexico, but all the ones from La Venta. almost all of them are are at that park. Um but they're larger than all the Olmec. heads throughout all of Mexico. Um. almost like twice as big in size. >> Wow. And um but what's funny is those.

heads are not humans, they're. ware-jaguars. Oh. But they're not basalts, so there's. there's some there's some So So this. slowly started eating away at me. I just. What's really cool about Mesoamerican. archaeology, or I should say American archaeology, is. that it's underpublished, underfunded. It's not quite as popular, you know, Egypt vastly overshadows so much of the. ancient world as far as popular.

interest, right? Um. and there are so few people. professionally studying it. that an outlaw like myself or Dr. Barnhart can come in and look at the. stuff that's on display, read the academic literature of what's. been of what's been discovered, you. know, for like like 100 years ago or. more, 80 years ago when it comes to the. Olmecs. That's another thing. You know, the Olmecs are an American discovery. Americans discovered and made the major. exploration or the major expeditions in. the Olmec world, Matthew Stirling and. the Smithsonian. When was that? Um it.

was. uh What was the first year? 19 It was mid-1930s to just after World. War II, 1946, I believe, was the last. uh [snorts] Stirling expedition to the. Olmec world. But yeah, it was it it was. American teams that did that. It's It's. kind of cool. It's an exclusive It's. like a It's like a specifically American. story where where we went down into. Mexico and and launched these major. expeditions uh with Smithsonian, obviously working with their government, but fully American teams. Yeah, I mean,

we talked earlier about. the early Smithsonian was very racist. against indigenous people. >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Cuz they believed that there's no way. savages could build these amazing. things, which I think is one of the reasons why. we don't hear those stories as much as. we hear about Egypt. To 100% true. Yeah, yeah, there's. there's a lot of weird, complex, like. dark. stuff that the Smithsonian has gotten up. to. I I haven't done a whole lot of. looking into it, but I will I will feed. the the giant skeletons uh community. There were three massive skeletons that.

were discovered at the Olmec side of San. Lorenzo in the early 1900s and an old. man that Dr. >> How big are we talking? Are we talking. giants? Uh more than 6 and 1/2 ft tall. Okay. That's that's what the guy That's what. this old man who was probably in his. 80s, Dr. Barnhart and I met him. He came. out with the archaeological team to the. site of San Lorenzo, got talking to us, and he told us he saw three massive. skeletons get erect or get excavated. from the Red Palace.

and they were taken to Mexico City and. never seen again. Wow. >> Never published. There's no photos of. them. That guy said he was 16 years old. when he saw it. And there are other. people who saw it as well and this was a. known thing that giant people were found. in these mounds and taken away. You're. not really a giant guy. >> was And this was the Smithsonian doing. this. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we have them. documented of hiding things. Oh, man, I. don't know if I'm I don't know if I'm a. giants guy. Um. I'm not really. I I kind of want to. believe, but I kind of don't. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I don't.

know I mean, I don't know if giants are. a race or if they're just venerated. because they're because they have What. is it? Gigantism or gigantism? Right. I. mean, I think your theory is the first I. heard of someone talking about a cleft. palate as being a positive trait in a. culture. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Um Can you tell us about that real. fast? Yeah, absolutely. [clears throat]. Yeah. Yeah. So, this. So, this is [snorts] this is the. the way that this started for me was I. was actually just playing around with I. was putting together um.

the ways that that Star Wars is inspired. by the Mesoamerican world. People don't. realize that there actually was. something called the Star Wars. It was. the Maya Civil Wars. and that so much of George Lucas' Star. Wars is actually pulled from. the Mesoamerican world. Even though they. don't publish it. Like you would think. he would write that in a book. It's so. obvious to me, but um. >> This audience knows what Yavin 4 is. Yeah. Yeah. So, Yavin 4, Tikal. Well, Jabba's Palace is actually pulled from.

from Montezuma's Palace. When the. Spaniards arrived, that this is this is. the beginning of me thinking about this. And I don't know if there's any other. modern scholars out there that agree. with me on this or or or they might all. think I'm crazy for thinking this. Um. but this is this is what got me thinking. about this. I had known. that the Aztecs had Olmec artifacts. Even though they may have never known. who the Olmecs were or knew about any. other sites. I knew that they had Olmec. artifacts and probably knew it came from. a time before time, right?

And then I got thinking about when the. Spaniards arrived at Montezuma's Palace. in the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan. They go up in this palace and they see. that surrounding the emperor are all. these people with weird deformities. And. he saw them as being touched or blessed. by the gods and that they could be. clairvoyant, that they could be. um. you know, they were valuable people and. so they were all spoiled and they were. kept up in the palace and they were. venerated. They weren't discarded like. they you know. if you're born deformed in ancient. Greece, you're going to get left up on.

top of a mountain top. >> Right. And. so [clears throat] that's another reason. that I say that their way of thinking is. inverse to ours. They're so much. different than us. So they see these. people as being touched by the gods or. blessed by them. Well, you know, one of the things that. we talk about a lot in Mesoamerican. archaeology is is the continuity of. cultures that they're very traditional. At the top of their of their stone. pyramids, if you look at the. architecture in the Maya world, the top. pyramid in stone. will be a stone recreation of a wooden.

and thatch hut that the normal people. would live in. So the top of the pyramid. is just an architectural recreation of a. of a wooden and thatch hut. It's the. same way within um. within Egyptian temples, the pillars. themselves are actually just bundles of. reeds and lotus flowers that are all. wrapped together. That's what the pillar. itself represents. And so. they really [cough and clears throat]. care about staying with tradition. That's why these people for so long, even as wealthy as they were, they.

always lived in huts because it's a way. of honoring the ancestors and honoring. tradition itself. You know, they're like. conservative people. They hold on to. these traditions and carry them with. them. And so I thought, well, you know, the. Aztecs are. 1400 AD. You go back just a thousand years, you. can see that the Maya are venerating. dwarfs. They say that the that dwarfs. built the pyramid of Uxmal in a single. night. If you go up to Temple 33 at the. city of Yaxchilan, there's like. depictions of dwarfs and the ball game.

all the way around the temple. The Maya people venerated dwarfs as. being special and being touched by the. gods. Uh you see that Pacal's son at the. city of Palenque, he had six fingers and. six toes. And that was something that. they that they saw as being significant. about him, that he was blessed by the. gods. Well, let's let's go back to let's. let's take that just one step further. back to the Olmec world where we have. even more deformity. We have um. you know, you have you have all these. depictions of of were-jaguar people who.

uh you know, they look like they have. the downturned mouths and cleft lips. with fangs coming out. >> Um and then you also see a lot of. depictions of. they some people call them like Downs. babies, but they're babies that you can. tell. are not. you know, they're born with some kind of. deformity. There's there's something. there's something, you know, wrong with. them. That's a were-jaguar baby. But if. you go to like a. regular baby, that guy, he's actually a. little bit different. Um so I think he. has ectodermal dysplasia, but if you.

look at a different baby statue, um. you'll see that that they do look like. like children with Down syndrome. And so. I think that the reason that we have. thousands of these little statues and. and they're they're like life-size. They. look just like a baby. You can put a. real one next to him, they're same size. and everything. It's a portrait of a. literal baby. And I think that. what I think is happening is that when. these babies are being born, the Olmec. people know that something is special. about them, they're blessed by the gods,

and they're not going to make it through. childhood. And so they venerate these. babies by making all these statues for. them cuz they know these children aren't. going to survive. And I think they're. they're venerating their lives. And the. babies that are born with these cleft. lips. in the 1970s, there was a survey that. was done in Veracruz, like a medical. survey. And one of the things they. documented, this didn't have anything to. do with like research in the Olmecs, it. was just something that that that they. documented, was that there's a. disproportionate amount of indigenous.

children born with ectodermal dysplasia. I mean, there's no question that's what. this is. We're seeing this over and. over. No question. >> see underneath the lips how gummy that. is? >> Yeah, there's no question. >> So, my wife has worked on children with. ectodermal dysplasia. My wife's a. dentist. I referred her about this. stuff, so I feel a little more Sure. >> uh free to talk about this. But, um. she'll have kids come in with ectodermal. dysplasia. They got a couple of fangs, like sometimes it's two fangs in the. front, or sometimes it's wide two fangs. They have no learning disability. Just. normal. Really? Yeah, just totally.

normal kids. But, they but they are. their mouths are gummy and they will. have two fangs on the top and maybe. sometimes fangs on the bottom, or they. won't have teeth that grow in the. bottom. Nowadays, they'll get implants, you. know, dentures, whatever. They they have. different ways of of um helping kids. with this. But, um it doesn't come with learning. disabilities. And she had a whole period. in college where she learned about this, which was actually the same time that I. was researching this, when I first. started researching it. And so, what I. think is that. these people. are interacting with the most ferocious.

animal in the jungles of the Americas, the jaguar. All of a sudden, you have. kids that are born with jaguar fangs. You start taking DMT and ayahuasca and. peyote. And just like you hear people. who take these hallucinogenic drugs in. the jungles of Central America, Mexico, and South America, they will wake up. looking through the eyes of a jaguar. They will be inside a jaguar going. through the jungle. And I think that all of these things. over thousands of years fuse into this. culture that venerates the most.

ferocious beast in the forest. that is taking hallucinogenic. psychedelics and. looking through the eyes of a jaguar. Whether or not it's really happening, I. don't I don't exactly know. And then you have children that are. being born with fangs that people are. looking at like. this person is a human jaguar. How did. it How did this happen? And you see. depictions in the city of Chalcatzingo. of jaguars and people. like interloping with each other, like. having sex with each other. Uh some.

people think that they're dancing, but. they they do look like they're having. sex with each other, and they're like. human jaguars. And so I think you get. this I think over the course of. thousands of years of this happening, you get these people that are like. selectively breeding and engineering a. whole population of people to be born. with ectodermal dysplasia. And that's. why throughout the the Olmec world, you. only see 17 depictions of colossal Olmec. heads, but you see. thousands of depictions of were-jaguar. people. Thousands. Thousands. Thousands.

And what I think it is is just like in. ancient Egypt where you had. it this this is I mean I I just feel so. certain saying this. In in ancient. Egypt, you have um we know that the pharaoh and. the priests were warring against each. other. The priests had. >> [snorts]. >> risen up. They they're they've become so. powerful that they start to challenge. the pharaoh's power, and it's almost. like the pharaoh has to obey the the. priests, and you know, that's not the. cosmic order of of things, and they they. have this huge feud. Well, I think that.

there's a priestly class of shamanic. people in the Olmec world that are the. were-jaguars. And it's this whole breed. of people. They're not kings, but. they're the religious leaders. They're. the religious guides in the. civilization. And the king himself is. separate from that from that. And we can. see all throughout the Olmec world of. the Olmecs. actually and I actually think that it's. it's a totally one-sided thing as far as. I can remember. So many of the.

Olmec altars, which are it's basically. like this huge stone table and inside of. the table you see a man who's clearly a. wear-jaguar with what looks like an. elongated skull and I'll have this big. hat thing on top of him with a uraeus. just like this is crazy. Just like the. Egyptian uraeus with the. >> Really? Yeah, he has a he has a a um. he has a it's either a fertile lance or. it's a rattlesnake right here on the on. the front of his headdress. You could. look up a La Venta. uh La Venta Olmec or Olmec La Venta.

altar and and it'll pop up. And he's emerging from a cave and he's. carrying a baby with him. The man has. downturned lips and so does the baby. And on the sides of the on the sides of. the monument you have other grown. people. Okay, so it's going to be one of these. Uh it's the it's the photo right below. this one. Yeah. Oh, that's no question. Yeah, so. so he's got so he's got a um. if you look really really closely there. there is a snake that's coming out of. the top of his hat. Um and so he's got.

downturned lips and he's holding a baby. while emerging from the cave. And next. to him you can see other people who also. have the downturned lips also holding. babies who have the downturned lips. Now, what I think that this actually is. and one day I got to make I got to make. something like this is. let's unwrap the monument where you have. a scene here on the front and you have a. scene here on the side. Let's unwrap it. and flatten it out. What I think it is. is it's a procession of these children. because we found we know where the caves. are that these people were making. pilgrimages to in in Guerrero, Mexico.

They're going inside the caves. They're. performing these mysteries inside of. them. There's depictions carved into. rocks at Chalcatzingo of a man sitting. on a throne inside a cave. You can see. the opening of the cave and you can see. the wind like billowing out of it. He's. also holding a baby. So, what I think that they're doing is. there's this rite of passage. that a baby born with ectodermal. dysplasia. a were-jaguar uh has to go through as a. baby to be. Oh, well, I mean, it's like it's like. having a It's like having a a Christian.

king being baptized as a baby, right? You have to go through the rites. And. so, they're going through their. mysteries, their rites as as uh. children. And what I think that these. altars are is [snorts] I think that that. is a snapshot in time of when. the shaman were-jaguar who's going to. sit on top of it that baby being carried. by the man, the baby is him. The It is a. snapshot of when he was given the right. of the power of the were-jaguar as a. baby, right? And uh and we know that.

they're that they're sitting on top of. it because there's a rock art painting. of a uh of a of a were-jaguar ruler. sitting in this like yoga pose on top of. one of those altars. So, we know that. they're sitting on top of them. What is. the {quote} {unquote} mainstream view of. those of. Uh man, I I I I I don't I don't think. that there really is one. And then you're it? Yeah, I saw I saw a. Well, I mean, I know that they're I. It's kind of like um. they they mostly mostly what they do is. they they call it.

ancestor veneration. It's all these. broadly vague terms. I saw a guy. recently who uh he's like a really. mainstream sort of academic and he did a. video on the Olmecs and I was curious. what he was going to say about these. monuments and I saw like his little part. where he's standing in front of it and. explaining it and I was like. No. No, it's not even It just It's. missing all of the nuance. It's fine, but it's missing all of the uh. everything. You know, so anyways, um but.

I think that I think that um. as you go throughout the Olmec world, you can see that there's two different. um. groups of people. You've got these royal. families that are headed by these Olmec. heads. Those guys are probably kings. They're They're Each of them are. portraits and there's just no other way. to explain it other than the fact that. the most powerful guy around had to have. commissioned that. But, you also have. massive monuments, never really heads. that are made out of basalt, but you got. these big altars like we were looking at. that are made for the were-jaguars. But, you know what's really interesting is if.

all of those altars are typically. smaller than like the average Olmec. head. And you can tell on some of them that. there's an ear on the backside of it. It. was a head that used to exist that was. carved down and away and turned into a. were-jaguar Wow. >> monument. And there's even a There's. even a an Olmec head that was never. actually a head, but it but it was a. smaller piece of. smaller flat like. uh. rounded piece of stone that they carved.

a face into it and then they carved. these these jaguar claw marks across the. head and just just like maimed and and. destroyed the face on it. And I think. that it's I think this public. architecture that's showing that the. were-jaguar priest class is warring with. the Olmecs. Yeah, that's telling a. story. And and they often say that uh. this is It's kind of like It's kind of. like the mystery of Göbekli Tepe. We. don't know what was intentionally buried. and what wasn't. Like if it was. intentionally buried, they they call it. ritual deactivation where it's like.

taking away the power from it. Now, we. don't know if it's the Olmecs doing it. themselves. or if it's warring factions inside the. Olmec world. >> heads were intentionally buried. Yeah, yeah. And we don't know if it was other. civilizations that came and buried them. like if they got conquered and the. civilization that conquered them buried. their think that that's I don't think. there's any evidence behind that at all. Um and then they think that the Olmecs. Um and then they think that the Olmecs. may have done it themselves, but not out of the official narrate the. official idea is that it was.

they were done it was done themselves, but not out of confrontation. It was. like ritual deactivation. So, maybe at. the end of the ruler's life they buried. the head. I don't I don't agree with. that either. Um because at the top of. the all the heads, the thing that's. ignored here. is the only claw marks that you actually. see on top or the only claw marks that. you will see on the Olmec heads. We. could look them up right now. They're on. the top of the head. And I think it's I. think it's probably at certain points. throughout the civilization the. were-jaguars toppled the control of the. Olmec kings, buried it down, maybe the.

head is maybe the top is exposed, and. they claw up the whole top of the helmet. where the symbols are. >> Yep. They they claw those away, but. it's it's actually a carving of a claw. mark cuz you can put all five of your. fingers in it and follow it like it's. like it's a deep claw mark. So, they're. carving. They're taking the time to. carve. >> isn't vandalism. This is sculpture. Sculpture. sculptural vandalism, right? It's like. this was this sculpture was created 150.

years ago or something. Well, now we're. going to bury it, and we're going to. carve claw marks into it to make it to. make it known. that this is what happens when you. challenge the cult of the were-jaguar, right? You know, something something. like that. Um and all over the Olmec. world you can see. it's not just claw marks like they. scratched into it with something. They took the time with tools to chisel. long deep five-finger claw marks. throughout throughout these monuments. This happens hundreds and hundreds of. times. Claw marks on hundreds of these?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh hundreds of. different monuments throughout. And and. several different like a dozen different. times like sh sh sh sh like you can. imagine. Yeah. >> that a were-jaguar clawed at a monument, and they make it look like that. Like a. were-jaguar just mauled this guy the top. of this guy's helmet took away his whole. insignia you know just just disgrace his. power and then they buried him. That's. what I think that I'm seeing especially. when you see the monument of what looks. like an Olmec.

uh head face and his whole face is just. torn to shreds. >> Could it be possible that the. were-jaguar is a later culture. and they're just the heads are there and. they want to bury these and and dominate. that earlier culture? Or do you think it's just think they're. contemporaries? That's a good question. I don't know. I. think it I think it's all happens at the. same time because. um. Well, I mean I love stuff that Yeah. that we just find. >> See the top of his See the top of his. head? >> yeah, that's that's vandalism sculpture.

That's clearly intentional. >> [snorts]. >> That That's an interesting question. about can can both these be happening at. the same time? Um. I think that they're happening at the. same time because it's. you see the similar art styles between. the heads and and everything else. They're also using the same trade. routes. Like we we have found. some of the roads where the where the. all the monuments are being transported. across land and everything. So, I think. it's all interacting each other. happening the same time. But what I.

think it is is that the let's say the. the the royalty versus the shamans these. rise these fall. You know, it's like. this. So, it's certain points times. there there might be not be a king at. all. It's just the were-jaguars. dominating everything and burying all. these people. And so, I think this is. going on for like almost 2,000 years. >> Yeah. And and I actually I'm I believe. I'm standing out on an island by myself. with this theory. I don't think there's. I don't think there's a single other. academic that that would that would back. this up. But it seems obvious to me that. it that it's.

two different factions like. warring against each other. Ultimately. though, um the last main Olmec cultural. center is a place called Tres Zapotes. and that rises somewhere around 250 BC. So, like. the Olmecs have been around for 2,000. years at this point. And when that. cultural center takes hold and they. build this massive city, they've got a few heads there, a bunch. of bunch of stone. monuments, no were-jaguars. So, somewhere between.

about 500 BC towards the latter part of. La Venta and the rise of this next. cultural center called Tres Potestas, the were-jaguar just. disappears into. >> time. That's interesting. >> And from that point on, dominating. Mesoamerica will be the pantheon of gods. that's worshipped by the Maya and the. Zapotecs, later the Teotihuacans, and and this shamanistic culture that's. like. supremely shamanistic, where where. people are almost like transforming into.

other beings, becomes secondary if not. completely disappears. We see in some. places in the Maya world, like out in. Belize, where Belize was connected to the Olmecs. in a way, in a particular way. The Maya. people of the Belize of Belize were. connected to the Olmecs in a particular. way that the rest of the Maya world was. not. And I just learned when I was in Belize. like a couple months ago from um. you Belize is so overlooked and so. underfunded and understudied in. archaeology that I learned that there.

are only five active PhD archaeologists. in the entire country of Belize. >> What? >> Only five. Oh, I should say no, no, no. There's only five of them and like two. or three of them are active. Yeah, how crazy is that? >> It's crazy. >> So, you have this whole massive world. there. But the we know that the Maya of. Belize were interacting with the Olmecs. because way early on before the rest of. the Maya world even uh. even accepts or adopts divine kingship, there was a a kingdom in the there was a.

kingdom on the coast there that had. trade connections all the way back with. the Olmec world cuz we can see that they. had that they're sharing things. Like. the Olmec people have artifacts that. you'd only find in the coast of Belize. and vice versa. And so these people on. the uh city called Cerros, they try a. kingdom and it works for like 150 years. and and collapses. But surviving there. throughout the rest of the Maya world, just in Belize. And you have to think. the Maya world is not a monolith. They're not like when one guy makes a. decision in Tikal, it doesn't you know,

become law for everybody else. It's like. it's like the Greeks. They have. city-states. But the were-jaguar survived in Belize. for all the way until the classic. period, like 2, 3,000 years later, where. >> For thousands of years the were-jaguar. continued. >> Survived in Belize. And I didn't I did. not know that. And I I. I was that was shown to me by an. archaeologist named Raphael. And he took. us on a he took us on a tour through ATM. cave, which is really really cool. And. he showed me on the side of this pot a.

were-jaguar. Would made in like. classical Maya form, but it was a man. who was actually a jaguar. Yeah. And it. doesn't exist anywhere else in. in the Maya world, but of course it. exists in the one place that was. actually connected to the Olmecs. thousands of years earlier. So that. influence that the Olmecs had on those. people of the were-jaguar stuck with. them for a thousand years after the. Olmecs had fallen. Yeah, that's really. cool. >> Um can I keep you for one last quick. second? >> Sure, let's do it. So we were talking about half-man,

half-jaguar. When we come back, can we. talk about half-man, half-bull? Half-man, half-bull, let's do it. All right. Thanks for hanging out for. one more. I appreciate it. I had so much. I know, did we get to most of it? >> Mo- almost. I was really excited to hear. you talking about the Minoans cuz I. don't think they get enough love. >> Yeah. Can you tell us a little Minoan story? Who were they? >> [clears throat]. >> Yeah, so the Minoans are um. you know, they're another one of these. civilizations sort of like the Olmecs.

They're a. If the Olmecs are a pre-Mesoamerican. society, well, the Minoans are like a. pre-Greek society. The Minoans really. might not even be Greek at all. Um we. don't quite understand their racial. composition or where they came from or. what or what culture they subscribe to. They're like their own people, but uh. And we don't know what they called. themselves. We don't know what they We. don't even know what they called. themselves. How crazy is that? We don't. even know what language they spoke. Same. same sort of thing. Um but the Minoan.

society is uh man, I I I love the. Minoans. Um. it's uh. I got fascinated with the Minoans. The The movie of uh Troy, all the. architecture that's pulled from that is. mostly from uh Knossos. And um so this. was So Knossos the on Crete. Knossos, which is which is. They call it the Minoan capital, but we. don't even know if that's what it was. Um but.

uh so the Minoans, they arrive. We start seeing their culture form. whether coincidentally or not. coincidentally uh on the island of Crete. on around 3100 BC. Same [snorts] century. Same century as. when as when Egypt arises. My guess, not. a coincidence. My guess, the ancient. world's much more interconnected with. each other than we can possibly. understand. Oh my gosh, I got to tell. you this. >> What? Do you want to talk about it?

I don't know if I told you this yet or. if I was talking with your brother about. this. What happened? Um. No, it was You and I were talking in the. other room when I told you about the the. that Roman city in the Dakleh Oasis way. out in the middle way out in the middle. of Egypt. So in southern Egypt, you. follow the Nile. 700 miles after you get into Egypt, and. then you go you head west for who knows? It probably takes a week to get out. there from from the Nile itself, but you. reaches place called the Dakhla Oasis, which are these. huge reservoirs that create fertile land.

just next to the reservoirs. Ancient. people have been living there since. 12,500 BC. Um. and [clears throat] they eventually were. consumed into and wrapped into the. dynastic Egyptian world. Well, when the. um. when the Romans, as we were talking. about, when they took over Egypt, they. built a Roman colony down there. And the. ancient world was so interconnected, news could spread so quickly that even. uh during this period of like uh 70. emperors in 70 days or something in.

Rome, they changed the inscriptions on one of. the temple walls to reflect an emperor. that was only alive as emperor and and. and on the throne for 90 days. That's. crazy. >> able to change the uh yeah, so there's. there's Dakhla Oasis. So, they were uh. they were able to change the inscription. of the emperor that quickly. So, that's. 1,200. to 1,200 plus miles. >> Right. That's unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah, so there So, information gets around. just like that. And my guess is it.

always had been and um. and we [snorts] just it's invisible, but. it's hard. we can't see it, but when you see the. fact that Mesopotamia really starts. kicking off around 30. Uh we can push it back a little bit, but. maybe 3,300, 3,200, 3,100 BC. The. Minoans kick off in 3,100 BC. The. Egyptians kick off in 3,100 BC. That's. not a coincidence. These people all know. each other and when when these little. revolutionary ideas spark, people who.

are trading in those areas, they go. immediately back home and say, "You're. not going to believe what I just saw.". Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. And that's why they. all progress next to each other, right? They all rise sort of at the same time. And um. but the Minoans are the ones that that. get overlooked because we look at. Mesopotamia and Egypt as being the. origins of civilization itself, but the. Minoans were right there, too. I mean, I. think you could say Crete is one of the. birthplaces of civilization. Because. >> can I mean, it's the first written.

language in Europe. I can start saying that more often. Yeah, what? Linear A, no? Yeah. First. written language. >> Yeah, yeah, Linear A. And um. >> And we don't know what it says. Yeah, yeah, well, first written language. at least in the Greek world. Like, you. know, Egyptian hieroglyphs and uh. and uh there's Egyptian hieroglyphs and. then there's um then there's the. Mesopotamian writing and there's the. Phoenician writing and they think that. Linear A is pulled from the Phoenician. writing, but um. yeah, that's that's fascinating.

Well, hang on a second. You have Linear. A, undecipherable, then you go Linear B, which is like Proto-Greek. >> Mhm. Then language then writing language. goes away for 400 years and then Greek. reemerges based on the Phoenician. alphabet. >> Oh, is that what it is? Okay, okay, I'm. sorry. I'm sorry. >> For some reason I was thinking that that. Linear A that they thought that Linear A. was pulled from I could be wrong. >> even know that. It's like pictures of. cats. It is, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. yeah, it's it's pictographic and and. logograms, which is which is loosely.

probably inspired by Egyptian. hieroglyphs cuz Egyptian hieroglyphs are. logograms and pictographs. And I think. that early Chinese is sort of the same. way. It's like pictures and the pictures. like fuse and become symbols, you know? But um yeah, so um. they uh. their their culture they arrive there I. think I think that the earliest that we. see their culture emerging is like 4,000. BC, which is the same time. Mesopotamia and Egypt. And then the. actual civilization fully existing is.

about is 3,100 BC. There's a lot of. different things that check boxes for. civilization. One of the things they're. starting to take off of that is writing, though. You know, it's it's like. you know, that used to be that used to. be one of the boxes you'd have to check. to be a civilization. Now they're. realizing it like that's not really. if you have all the other tenets of a. civilization, you don't have to be. writing because you don't have to write. to have a civilization. A lot of. civilizations survive off of oral. history. So, they're taking that one. off, which I sort of agree with. But, um nonetheless,

the Minoans are writing. >> [cough]. >> So, um man, they are so much more. ancient than than the rest of uh. than the rest of the Greek world. So, between 3000 BC and 2000 BC, they start building these uh towns and. cities across the island of Crete. They. say it's it's uh it's like the island of. the island of 100 cities or the island. of 100 palaces. And so, you have all. these um.

you have all these cities that are being. built that are extraordinarily wealthy. compared to other people that are living. in you know, between 2000 and 3000 BC. around the Mediterranean world. Well, explain how big these palaces are. because. >> Well, well, so so right now we're in the. like the pre-palatial period. We start. entering palatial when we get to about. 2000 BC. >> Okay. That's when the big buildings go up. Yeah, so so the Minoans, they uh. they real- they realize that they're. >> [snorts]. >> the Mesopotamians, they they.

they. make a lot of their uh. wealth from I believe it a lot of it is. gold mining uh and and valuable. resources as well as it is farming. The. Egyptians, it's farming straight up. They don't even have gold in Egypt. All. their gold comes from comes from Sudan. and in Nubia. Um. but massive a massive amounts of. farming. And so, the uh the Minoans, they make their money in the copper. trade. Copper.

>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh so, one of. their most valuable uh. one of the places that was able to to. mine the most copper was their city of. Akrotiri. Akrotiri, it's uh modern-day. Santorini, just north of the island of. Crete. They're able to mine a lot of. copper there and on the various islands. and the island of Crete itself does have. some copper. It does have silver as. well. So, it's metals. Once the Once the. metal starts kicking off, that's why. like. Egypt and Mesopotamia kind of They all. emerge at the same time, but these two. guys grow way faster. But, once these.

guys Once everyone else starts realizing. that they want copper, boom, the Minoan. civilization explodes. And so, uh about. 2100 BC to. let's say 1900 BC, that's kind of when. this massive. It probably goes back further than that. because we know that the Egyptians are. buying copper from them like in the. fourth dynasty. There's all that copper. that they've got. So much of that comes. from the uh comes from the Aegean.

But, the Minoans are slowly building up. that wealth to about the point that by. 1700 BC, the whole island is covered in. like 99 of these I think it's like 99 to. 100 of these massive palaces. >> That many, wow. I think that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Now, there's there's about a. dozen of them that are absolutely. enormous, but in all, it's like it's. like 100 uh palisade towns. You have. this big town and you have this massive. public architecture center in the middle. of it. But, there's 12 of them, I.

believe, that are. just absolutely enormous. I wish I had a. measurement of the acreage. Um that's. something I should know. But, they were. so enormous and so strange to visitors. that this is uh sort of where the. labyrinth myth myth comes from. There. There was no actual that we have found, no labyrinth of of the Minotaur. And the. Minotaur is their cultural creature. It's this man bull. So, kind of like the. Olmecs, you know, you got this man. jaguar. So, you had a wearable. And uh.

so, the labyrinth [clears throat] of the. Minotaur, it's possible that it's. actually just rep uh. referencing the palaces because the. palaces are these labyrinths of like. four-floor palaces with all these. winding uh hallways. You know, in. ancient times, people don't think about. this, there were no wide-open rooms in ancient. times because they. the technology to create a roof that. would still hold up to be large um. it just it just hadn't it hadn't been. invented yet. They hadn't figured out.

how to do that with the architecture. So, you would have small rooms and. winding hallways. And so, these palaces. are labyrinths. With like 1,300 rooms. Yeah, exactly. With like 13 13 1,400. rooms. Yeah, it's something it's. something insane, especially at Knossos. >> And we call them palaces, but it's. possible that everybody lived there, no? Like shopping malls? Yeah, yeah, that. that would be more so what I would say. You have these um. you have these uh. you have these villas that are built.

right up on the walls on the outside. And from those villas that surround the. palaces, it starts out at this really high. high-level super expensive homes, and it. gradually descends out as you get. further away. You know, you got. thousands of people living here. And. then you've got these other nicer areas. that are way out in the countryside, people that are, you know, have like. wine um. vineyards and and farms and and. everything. And actually, keep keep in. mind, even the lower-class people, their. homes are much larger and much more.

well-built than anybody's homes in. Egypt. Like in Egypt, if you're not born. royal, even a priest. granted, some of the some of the wealthy. some of the high-ranking priests were. like mob bosses. But uh. in general, by principle, in Egypt, if. you weren't born royal, you lived in a. dump. You lived in a shack. So, even the. normal people in the Minoan world are. far more wealthy than the average. Egyptian. There is not any sort of. normal circumstance where the average.

Minoan person would ever even dream they. would laugh at the idea of trading. places with an Egyptian. And when you. know that, it kind of changes your. perspective of the ancient world. Like, yeah, these temples were amazing, the. pyramids are amazing, that that world is. amazing, but. you know, the average life of a Minoan. of a Minoan was considerably better than. anybody else in the Mediterranean world. Considerably better. They had flushing. toilets and water that's flowing through. their city, and they've got fountains in. the center of the city, which was. something that, you know, people always.

look at like the Roman aqueducts. bringing fresh water in the cities. already existed. The The Minoans already. had this, but it was all underground. >> Underground plumbing. And yeah, they had. they had underground plumbing. >> Underground plumbing, ceramic pipes. They had marble toilets on the fourth. floor of palaces with you know, that. could flush. They could on on the island. of Akrotiri specifically, your [snorts] bath, you could choose. between cold and hot water. >> That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. So, it just. just mind So, they're What are they. drawing from two different like a hot. spring and a So, one is coming from a.

spring that's next to the volcano, and. the other one is coming from a cold. spring. That's amazing. >> And uh and you could you could cut off. the where the water is coming from to to. fill up your bath. And you know, the. baths are are made out of like alabaster. crystal, some of them are made out of. polished marble. It's just like crazy. And and um it it's just unbelievably. wealthy society. And as much as we've. studied the the societal makeup, like uh. how the the structure of the culture, there's no sign of kings, there's no.

sign of lords, there's. the the these aren't kingdoms, they're. um the the way I've seen them described. is is is consumer societies. So, it was. a capitalistic enterprise society. So, you know, it's a dog-eat-dog world based. on what you provide and having. connections inside the business realm. So, what makes sense to me is that those. palaces are are actually malls. That's. not a palace, it's public architecture. And in the center you'd have a big. courtyard, so there'd be festivals that.

were played there. All the depictions. you see of the guys jumping over the. bulls, that all happened it must have. happened in that central courtyard. So. you'd have parades there, and in the. cubbies on the sides you'd have people. selling things, and as you went up maybe. you know, who knows, maybe the copper. salesman are up at the top floor. And. that's where the aristocrats are really. trading, and down on the bottom you've. got like you know, hey, do you want to. buy you want to buy these. you know, these olives, you want to buy. these seeds, this grain, this this cheap. wine, you know? And then you probably. have you probably have like.

on the third you know, on the top I'm. guessing it's going to be like copper. trade. You're going to have this you. know, thousandaire that's going to come. in like a millionaire or billionaire. back then, but you know, he's going to. come in and he he's got to go to the top. floor where all the copper salesman are, the super rich people with the finest. wine being brought to these businessmen. And just below that it's probably like. oh, you know, well, while I'm visiting. Knossos I want to buy this really nice I. want to buy this really nice cup that I. can drink with, you know? So you go up. to the third floor where all the faience. is being sold and. you know.

that's probably what I think it was is a. big mall. I think you're right. Ryan's. showing the Heraklion right now. You. don't see architecture like this for a. thousand years. When this falls, yeah, you don't see. anything like that. Actually, I should. say on a on a on a. scale that size. no classical Greeks are ever building. anything that big. Um. all of their buildings are like single. buildings that are clustered together. That is one massive building. The only. time you'll ever see anything like that. is.

I would say 2,000 years later, height of. the Roman Empire. That's the only like. like the forum and all the temples that. are not clustered together, but they're. like built on top of each other. That's. the only time you ever see anything like. this again. Especially with the running. water, with the flushing toilets, with. the aqueduct systems, with the public. bathrooms, with the public fountains. All of that is height of the Roman. Empire. You know, so when people say you. know, a lot of people will will conflate. Atlantis. Like you you you'll ask.

people, "Okay, well, I mean. you don't actually think Atlantis was. like. like spaceships and lasers and aliens. and stuff. Like what do you think it. was?" People will go, "Well, I'm not. saying I think Atlantis was on par with. what we have today, but maybe more like. the Roman Empire.". There you go. You know, the the Minoans. are right there are right there with. with the Romans. Maybe not as power, but. sophistication and technology for sure. >> Yeah, it's it's really right there. That's a great segue. So, what happened. to the Minoans? Yeah, uh this is a huge mystery, man. Um. Cuz suddenly they're gone, right? Yeah,

yeah, greatest archaeological um mystery. of all time, really. Like most famous. one. Um. So, the the. one of the central core aspects to the. Minoan world, which we touched on a. little bit earlier, is the copper trade. Well, that copper trade comes out from. this little Minoan colony of Akrotiri. Um Akrotiri was settled around. 4,000 to 3,000 BC. It's it's just like. right after uh Minoan culture really.

appears on Crete. You got some people. who move up there and it's and when they. start mining their resources that are. found on the island, it becomes. important. So, they kind of. get absorbed by Minoan society and and. Akrotiri or Santorini becomes a part of. the Minoan world. Um. And so, copper trade is coming out of. there. And so, Akrotiri controlled the. copper trade um from the Minoans going. out to the rest of the Mediterranean. world. It also controlled the copper. trade going from the Minoans to the.

Greek mainland. So, uh think about Mycenae out in. mainland Greece, all the way up to. Macedonia, all the way around the. Turkish coast. They all want to come. down to Crete. All the travel that comes. down to Crete, whether it's for copper. trade or it's whether it's for anything, would go through Akrotiri. So, this is a. wealthy, important place. >> Very wealthy, very important. Probably. it's possible. Yeah, I mean it's not possible. It's. It's probably a fact that in 1600 BC,

1650 BC, Akrotiri was the wealthiest, greatest city on the planet at that. time. Wow. And uh. >> Wow. Yeah. You got that right. >> At that very moment. >> Yep. And and it makes sense with why the. um. So, think about the story of Atlantis. that's told. One of the things we that we're told. about Atlantis is that they were very, very wealthy. and that they were greedy and that their. civilization was destroyed bec- as a. result of that. Well, Minoan society. itself is a consumer society based on.

money from what we can tell. The whole. society is based on money, kind of like, you know, the US like in some ways. It's. a consumer society, filthy rich. >> Yes. Well, that idea. of Atlantis. I think that that's Well, we should get. into that in just a moment, but I'm I'm. telling you what happened to to to the. Minoans. So, Akrotiri in 1650 BC is the is the. wealthiest city. I should I shouldn't say wealthy city,

the best place to live on the entire. planet. Per individual wealth, wealthiest city. on the planet. Now, you know, you. compare that to like Babylon, it's not. going to Or or you compare it to to. Memphis in Egypt. Memphis has more. wealth, but the quality of life is so. much lower, right? >> in Akrotiri is living a great That's. exactly That's exactly right. And um and. so uh And so, you have all these other. Greek um. civilizations in the mainland looking at. the Minoans like, "Look at these wealthy.

guys." Especially Mycenae. Mycenae is. chomping at the bit to get a piece of. that a piece of that wealth. And Mycenae. is uh Mycenae is the civilization that's. depicted in the movie Troy, the king. Agamemnon. So, the whole rise and fall. of the Minoan world actually happens. long before the the story of Troy. Um. Well, we could detour for like a. [clears throat] second there if you want. to talk about the Trojan War because. it's one of my favorite things ever. Yeah, yeah. Well, it happens after this. Yeah, let's go to that after this cuz. cuz it it'll I think it'll make more.

sense chronologically. Okay. Cuz I have. a I have a question. Yeah, absolutely. So, um. So, what's crazy is at the height of. Minoan power. this island of this island of 100. palaces or 100 cities. um far more wealthy and and well-to-do. per person, you know, on a one-to-one. scale than the than the rest of the. ancient world controlling the copper. trade, which is the most widely used, you know, metal in in the ancient world.

Um. Around the year 1650 BC or 16 I should. say around the year 1600 BC, maybe maybe. 1550 BC, they're still kind of playing. with the dates there. Um. Around then, Ak- Akrotiri starts having. these earthquakes that are going off and. they're rattling the city and they're. rattling the city and it starts. happening on a regular basis. And we. know that it knocked down large parts of. the large parts of the buildings there. They built the they rebuilt the. buildings and put them back together. We.

can see that in some of the buildings. that still survive today. Yep. And it's. not known how long. this period of time is between the. earthquakes beginning and people. realizing that these earthquakes aren't. going to stop and they have to leave the. city. This What I'm going to get about to get. to is one of the most amazing things. about about these people and how. sophisticated and how smart and capable. they were. Go ahead. Um. They all they they. ultimately decide. that that this this island that they're.

living on on Santorini Akrotiri. they can't live here anymore. The. buildings are shaking, they're falling. apart. It It must have been so bad. because every. single person not an elderly person, not. a child was left behind. >> Not an animal. >> Not an animal, not a pet, not nothing. Every living thing. on the entire island of Akrotiri was. evacuated. And then. they were all they were all brought. probably mostly to Crete. They must have.

been. I mean, there are some other. Minoan islands. And shortly after that, the entire sky. over Crete just completely turns black. And. the fourth largest volcanic eruption in. the history of planet Earth. just erupted from the core of the island. of Santorini. And the Minoans were so capable that. they prevented every single person. It's amazing. >> from not a single casualty. >> Not a single casualty of the fourth. largest eruption on planet Earth.

And I think the largest one. during the time of humanity. I'm pretty. I'm I think that that might be right. >> The largest volcanic eruption during the. time of humanity just Take us through. the day. What what it would have been like? Yeah, [clears throat] so um. >> It's It's cuz it's three or four stages. of hell. Yeah, yeah, it's it it is. Um. And this is the Thera eruption, I. believe. >> Yeah, Thera. Yeah, yeah. Um so so it's. the uh. So the city is called Akrotiri, the. island is Thera, and today it's known as.

Santorini. Um so, you know, geologists have gone. through Obviously, there was. We don't think there's anybody there to. witness it. Who knows? Maybe there were. people out in the water that saw this. Maybe they didn't survive. But I don't. know. Um. So the island [snorts]. uh. I forget the the the the chronological. order of the different of the different. stages, but um. you have this initial eruption that. causes this like I think it's a it's a. 20-mi-high. column. It's a It's a column that's.

three times the height of Mount Everest. That's That's what they estimated the. the eruption to be. And it it sends this. huge plume over the entire uh island of. Crete, which we'll get to in just a. moment as well, cuz that causes some. havoc on Crete. And um. but what's what's fascinating is that. when it sends this rubble into the city. of Akrotiri, it knocks down it knocks. down some of the buildings. And this all. happens over the course of just like 48.

hours, 72 hours. And it it it sends. rubble and shrapnel onto uh onto. Akrotiri, knocks down some of the. buildings, but not actually too many of. them. And they think that it's the. shaking of the island because most of. the shrapnel actually gets launched into. the island of Crete itself. Like there. are boulders that smashed Oh, yeah, there are boulders that smashed into the. island. But mostly it was this white. pumice that would that would. uh. kind of like um. fall down like snow. And it covered the.

city in 20 ft of volcanic ash and. pumice, and which eventually packed and. became like this solid rock. 20 ft in a. probably in a day, right? >> 20 ft in a day. So, imagine it's a. Like you can't see anything. There's no. If you were there, there's no visual at all. It's just. black. This is Vesuvius just without the. people. Exactly. Exactly, yeah. Um. and so if if you were there, there would. be no sunlight coming through the sky.

That's how dense the pumice and ash. falling from the volcanic eruption. It's. just straight up blackness. And uh but there were there were parts. of the city that were not actually, for. some reason, you know, maybe it has to. do with the wind or or the way that the. uh the way that the air is circulating. inside the explosion, there are places. where that air is not blowing the ash. onto certain corners of the city. So, >> [snorts]. >> there's a part that geologists estimate.

that happened later in the eruption. where when the caldera fell, there's like all of a sudden there's. this bubble. There's this huge uh like. vacuum, I guess, um in the in the island. And so, the. caldera sinks in after it erupts, but. the caldera is superheated, and you have. this cold water from the Aegean that. spills into it. And when it does, it. causes these steam explosions. >> Explosions. >> And those explosions that are I mean, who knows? Like as hot as the sun are.

coming up and. sweeping over the city and just. scorching the sides of the buildings and. knocking them down. So, you can find the. buildings where they're knocked down. that they have like these burn marks all. on one side. And when they uh somehow. investigate the the burn marks or take. samples of it, they can tell that these. came from. uh somehow they can tell that it came. from steam that had burned it cuz it's. not the same sort of uh. you know, the same kind of burning I. don't I don't know how these guys do the. things that they do. But uh yeah, I. mean, just just devastating. But what's.

So, it erupts and completely. uh. throws the entire wrench in the core. island that. sort of facilitated the wealth in and. out of Crete, especially with the with. the mainland. And there's so much copper. coming from Akrotiri back to Crete to be. sold into the Mediterranean. Uh. it's it's disrupting their economy, but. also the waves. are just like uh just like Alexandria. getting hit with that massive wave, the. whole northern side of Crete, all their.

docks that so many other palaces were. built on, the docks are just uplifted. and thrown into the mainland. And we. have um. we have uh archaeological evidence of. parts of the docks and um. I'm not sure how they do this, but. they're able to find. evidence that the water. came up like. is that 50 ft or 50 m? It's something. like that and like 500 yd inland. So, it. it went. Yeah. It just covered the you know, the.

the that northern part of Crete and went. way up into the hills. We [snorts] have no idea how many people. died during this I mean, we just we just. don't know. So, at some point. between right then during the time of. this eruption and the the the carbon. dating it it kind of goes back and forth. like one decade or or one half century. They they think that it happened. immediately [snorts] after the eruption. and right now just as of like the last. couple years, they think that this. happened like 100 years later.

I don't know that happening immediately. after the eruption makes sense to me, but immediately after the eruption. the entire island of Crete becomes. covered with this thin burn layer. And it's not a thick burn layer. It's a. thin burn layer. And they nobody could. explain why that is. And the only theory. I've heard proposed that makes sense is. when that plume covers. the covers the country or covers the. island of Crete. Actually, it was so. significant that um. I think it was uh.

one of the. Yeah, no. I think it was almost the. first. The founder either the founder of. the uh of Egypt's New Kingdom or he's. the or he's the first pharaoh to use the. Valley of Kings. Um. but he writes about personally. witnessing himself this massive storm. that covered uh all of Egypt. Some of. some people link this to the uh plagues. >> to the plagues of the Exodus. That's. right. >> it's possible. I think it's possible. Um. and cuz you mean gosh, you can only.

imagine what that would cause in in a. country. Um and and what's interesting. is those plagues are are also naturally. occurring phenomena if something is a. catalyst that starts it, right? So, that. that's kind of interesting. And also [snorts] that story can be like. an amalgamation of different things that. actually did happen in Egypt and they're. condensed into a story like. I think it's I think that that they try. to say the Exodus began being written in. like 900 BC, something like that. Um. but uh.

so the the best theory I've heard of of. why Minoan civilization collapsed is not. only is the copper trade being. uh disrupted by the eruption of Thera, the destruction of Akrotiri, the wiping. [snorts] out of the copper trade, at. least most of it, and the pummeling of. all these uh northern shore docks where. the palaces are at, which obviously. erupts the trade. People arrive on Crete. and like, "What the happened to. this place?" you know. This cascades throughout the entire. world. This is the collapse of the. Bronze Age. Yeah, yeah. The The other thing is that the The.

whole island of Crete itself is covered. with this thin burn layer. And it. doesn't look like. uh some archaeologists look at it and. and they don't think that it's. consistent with an attack cuz you can. see what burn layers look like in. attacks like like the like the city of. Troy when they finally found it and they. excavated it, they see they've seen what. those burn layers look like and they're. more intense, they're more spotty. And. so the theory I actually like is. this idea that the whole island would. have been. night for a day, two, three days at.

most. Think about how quickly chaos. erupts and even more candles and torches. are lit than ever before. Everybody has. them, everybody has them lit and chaos. erupts and crime is probably rampant. People start going hungry, right? Like. within within 12 hours people start. going hungry and doing crazy things for. food. Crime is probably rampant. And the. best idea I think is that the Minoans. burned down the island. >> Wow. >> chaos of the darkness. I have not heard. that theory. >> Yeah, yeah. That they, you know, they.

kick over they kick over lances and. lanterns and they burn down their own. cities by accident because there's so. much chaos, nobody can see anything. Nobody's showing up for work, you know, it's just you you can't even imagine. It's like the end of the world. You. know, it's literally the end of the. world. So, they accidentally burned down. everything because you think of how many. fires you have to light just to be able. to see. Wasn't Knossos the only city to. even survive that? Well, it only. survived because when. beyond this point of this burning. the Minoan world is gone. It's gone.

It's gone. >> Because when Knossos comes back. it comes back with Linear B. Mycenaeans. >> Mycenaeans The My- The Mycenaeans. whether they saw the declining of like. again. archaeologists don't necessarily know if. that burning happened immediately. following the eruption or if it happened. 50 to 100 years later. If it happened 50. to 100 years later, that means it was a. massive invasion of the Minoan mainland. by Mycenae on a scale.

that makes the Trojan War look like. this. Right. Literally, the Trojan War. is nothing compared to the scale of the. invasion that it would have taken to. conquer Crete. Nothing. Not even close. The Troy is only. significant because it gets told in that. story. >> Right. But all it is is a tiny little. port city that controls the entry to the. Black Sea. Troy was not a significant It. wasn't like an overly wealthy place. The. the artifacts that come out of Troy. aren't really that impressive. Um maybe.

10,000 people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Minoan world. you're talking about you're talking. about World War Zero to to conquer that. place. >> You know, couldn't the Mycenaeans just. when the island was basically empty and. they they just rolled [clears throat]. over there? It There's no evidence of war, is there? V- No, no. Other than the burning. No. Other than the burning. No. And so, the. other thing is is um. if if they went over and conquered,

there was a little bit of fighting. That's why the burn That's why the burn. marks are there. Um. it something had to have happened. If. that if that wasn't a direct result of. because it's across the entire island so. the thin burn mark. So there had to have. been conflict and that's why people say. if if that doesn't if that didn't happen. as a direct result of the Minoans. accidentally one of the other things I. thought was that it was shrapnel from. the volcano landing on the island and. causing fires but that's. The island's massive. I don't think that. that stacks up. So um. >> Yeah, it's like 160 miles wide.

Right, is it Think that's right. Yeah, it's 160 miles wide and 300 yards like. north to south or yeah, I'm sorry. 300. miles. Right, it's 30 miles north to. south. Yeah. So um. Yeah, that that doesn't really stack up. So if if they didn't burn down. the island accidentally right after the. eruption then it had to be like a light. some kind of skirmishing across the. island but regardless the only palace. that re-emerges is Knossos which is the.

biggest and and most lavish one and the. Mycenaeans must have known that. And so. they rebuild the palace and put it back. together but. the art style has changed, the. architecture has changed, the pottery. changes and that official language. that's used to kind of log trading. coming in and out changes from Linear A. to Linear B which is Mycenaean you know. writing language that they were also. using. And so. >> so now they're speaking Greek. Now. they're speaking Greek. And so so the. Mycenaeans just permeate permeate. throughout the entire island of Crete.

and take that over and the Minoan. civilization just. dis- like disappears into time. And I. think. that when Plato. >> [snorts]. >> is. talking about you know in his writings. in the Republic and uh and all the times. he mentions Atlantis I think. >> dialogues. Yeah, I think he's drawing on. at least two different things. Maybe. there's a third thing. But um. you know the city of Helike had just.

been it's a Greek city on on on the. western coast or on the eastern coast of. mainland Greece and it was sunken by a. tsunami just 10 or 13 years before he. even mentions Atlantis. So, I wonder if. that got him thinking. But then also oral traditions survived. Nobody had forgotten about the Minoan. world being destroyed. People don't. forget cataclysms, you know, that's why. the flood myths exist for all of time. >> Right. And and I think that even though.

it's invisible to us and we can't really. see it. and we can't see the connections, I think that. Plato is drawing on these early. fuzzy myths that survived from the. Bronze Age when he's when he's telling. the story of Atlantis and I'm not sure. what to think of necessarily of of the. Solon story. I just I just don't know. Have you heard the theory about how they. may have [snorts] got the math wrong? No. There's. the ancient Egyptians weren't great at.

math. Okay. So, their symbol for 100. could have been misinterpreted as a 10. Oh, yeah, yeah. >> So, Plato's saying that this happened. 9,000 years ago. If that theory is. correct, it would have happened 900. years ago and that would place it right. at the 12th century BC, right at the. collapse of the Bronze Age, like right. dead there. If if that theory is correct. So, Plato's 400 BC. Now, now you know what's interesting is is. that works in two different ways because. if it's.

if it's if it's 900 years before Plato, it's the collapse of the Bronze Age, but. if it's Solon saying that it's 900 years. earlier instead, then that's the. collapse of the Minoans. That's true. Yeah. So, either way, so. either way it works. Yeah, cuz I think it might be Solon. that's saying I think it might be I. think it's Solon saying that in his I. think it's Plato saying that Solon said. in his time it was 9,000 years earlier. So. >> so if that's instead 900, Solon is let's.

say around. Is he is he late 600s BC? So if that's. 900 years before, that's about 1600 BC. Yep, that works. It it works. It's the. the you know, those those numbers are. there. Um. Now what's really interesting is okay, um the story of Atlantis itself is. Athens conquering Atlantis. That's what. they that's what they say. People [snorts] forget that part. Well,

Athens didn't exist. in 11,000 BC or or whenever. You can you. can excavate down to the bedrock. There's just no evidence that there were. people living at that specific place up. on the plateau where where Athens um or. you know, up at the Acropolis where. Athens was cuz originally the Acropolis. was not that. was not that political uh religious sort. of center. It was actually a castle. It. was walled off during during the Bronze. Age. But here's what's really interesting. is. you know you know the story of Theseus. and the Minotaur. Of course. Theseus uh.

kills the Minotaur. Well, during the time of Mycenae conquering. Crete, which Crete is the Minotaur, the Minoans. are the Minotaur. Well, Athens is just a vassal of Mycenae. itself. So Athens is part of the greater. Mycenae world. So Athens was a part of. that conquering of the Minotaur. So when. they talk about Theseus killing the. Minotaur,

Athens being a part of Mycenae did kill. the Minotaur. That's true. >> That actually is what happened. So. when we talk about Athens killing. Atlantis and Theseus killing the. Minotaur, those two things are parallel. to each other. >> That's interesting because you've got. K minus. uh at. at odds with the Mycenaeans and that. happens with the Minotaur. Then his grandson is Idomeneus, and they. actually team up with the Mycenaeans to. go and invade Troy with the 80 black. ships. So, that all lines up. Yeah. It.

It The Iliad becomes a historical. document. Yeah. And then, have you read about the. Hittite tablets regarding the Trojan. War? No. It's recorded in Hittite clay tablets. about this diplomatic situation that's. happening in this city that's I forget. what they call it. I have it written. down somewhere, but it's Ilium. And. there's a war with Ilium that finally. gets resolved.

with the Treaty of Alexandru. And. Alexandru is, of course, Alexander, which is the other name for Paris. Okay. in the Iliad. So, the Hittites. have documented the Trojan War. So, now. we have it from the other side. Oh, [snorts] that's fascinating. Yeah, it. It makes sense. I mean, that's That's. That is one of those things where, um, you know, there's so many times that. that academics and archaeologists like. blow something off as being totally. myth, and it's not myth. It It You know, the myth is based on something that.

really did happen. You know what's You. know what's really funny? Is, I will. catch some flak sometimes for my Minoan. Atlantis theory. There's no. archaeologist that even that even. slightly agree with the Minoan Atlantis. theory. Well, I mean, I say slightly. agree. I It's less common now. It used. to be more common. Um, Well, what are some problems with. the theory? Well, [clears throat] let's. We can do steel man, straw man. Yeah, yeah. Um, Oh gosh. Um, I don't know if I can if I. can come up with some on the spot. Like, okay. Well, okay. Well, one of one of. >> Pillars of Hercules? Um,

>> Yeah. Okay. Pillars of Hercules, elephants, the type of stones that are. there, this that and the other. Um, Elephants we can solve. How so? Because there are dwarf. elephants found on Crete. >> Ooh, I can't let you know that. I was. going to I was going to see if that's. what you're going to say. Yeah, there. are. Yeah, they are. The Pillars of. Hercules bother me, though. I can't. square it. Yeah, I know. I agree. I agree. Um. it's. when he describes the location of it, it's it's not describing a location. that's in that's in the Greek Isles.

One of the ways that I try or attempt to. rationalize that is um. is that the Greeks are. are pretty bad historians and um and. they're not very good at telling their. history, especially even something that, you know, Plato's living in 400 BC. um. and and and, you know, between 400 and. 350 BC and he's talking about something. that Solon went and did. over 200 years ago or around 200 years.

ago. I don't know, you know, man. I don't. know if I It's funny like in our. modern-day culture, we hold Plato and. Solon's word as being biblical, but it's. like, okay, let's let's be real. Like. they could just be wrong, you know? That's Yeah, Plato enjoyed a metaphor. Exactly, exactly. And um. in Plato's. his whole. everything that he did was putting words. in other people's mouths and playing. metaphors, right? >> Literally in the dialogues is what he. does. >> That's literally what he does. And so,

um if some of those little facts are. wrong or he just pulls it out of his ass. because it's more important for him to. get the point across, you know? We we we we. we tie Plato just right now in this blip. in our time, we tie Plato and Atlantis. together because that's what's important. to us. But if we were talking to Plato, Plato might go. Plato might look at the last 2,000 years. or everybody right now obsessing over. him with Atlantis and be like. guys, that's. No, I was I was talking about I was I.

was talking about, you know, this. phenomena of of ancient civilizations. that. that. rose and fell in our time, you know, in. in our civilization. Um. And I'm And I'm talking about the. symptoms of those civilizations and what. destroyed them. And like, why are you. ignoring that? I think you're right. >> That's probably That's probably might be. what he would what he think. You know, the other thing that I think is pretty. funny, um. is that the the whole. allegory, even if even if he is really.

drawing on something important, he is. telling an allegory that is all about uh. the the consequences of greed. And what. I think is so funny is that there's. probably. I I It's just ironic that, um you know, people run with the story of Atlantis. just to make money sometimes and ignore. like all the actual evidence, ignore, you know, empirical review or. whatever whatever whatever.

And it's like exactly the opposite of. the of why Plato even brought the story. up to begin with, you know, so. It's. almost irony. It It is It is ironic, um. but. uh but it actually just proves Plato. right. What do you think about the idea. that the Trojan War, Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid [snorts] is all really part of. the same. point in history, 10-20 years, the fall. of the Bronze Age. It's all. part of one big story and the eruption.

The. Uh what now Go into that a little bit. Where um. we have documentation now from the. Hittites of the Trojan War, but it. wasn't like a big thing to them. It was. a diplomatic situation. They got a. treaty. But then there's another war. Mhm. with Troy 10-20 years later. I I. think they're just discovering within. the last few years another layer. underneath. >> There's there's I think it's Troy 6 and. 7 or Troy 7 and 8. It's something like. that. >> much It's much bigger. Not necessarily. more populous, but bigger city.

And so, we've got all these stories. coming around the same time. I mean, Iliad, Odyssey happens right after the. Iliad, right? >> Mhm. Yeah. and the Aeneid essentially is. right after the Iliad. It's all one. >> to be, yeah. >> supposed to be one long story. And uh all centered around basically. it's the story of the collapse of. everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's their It's their way of. acknowledging it. And and I It's the end. of the world. >> Yeah, I think that that's so. interesting. I'll tell you, I really.

think it's fascinating when you get into. the Aeneid, too. That's something so. I haven't really got talking about it. I've done a lot on the Olmecs. Doing. some on the Minoans. I'm going to do. more on it. Um but the next thing I want. to get into is the Etruscans and and. early Rome because that's it. The. Etruscans are another overlooked. civilization. >> And we we don't know if the Aeneid. really comes from the Romans or if it. comes from the Etruscans or if it's some. other early Italians, you know, we don't. we don't really know where that comes. from. Is Is it likely that there was a guy.

named Aeneas uh that that really escaped. Troy and went and established Italy. It's possible, but it could be more. likely that there were Italians that. were. that were living in that area of the. world at the time and when all that. collapsed, they had to come back to. Italy and restart, you know, who knows? Or or that they were a people that were. cast out of that Bronze Age world that. came as refugees to Italy. That was a. common thing, like refugees getting sent. from one place to the other. And I I.

think you're right in that it is their. way of. acknowledging and telling a story of. where they came from. And probably the core of that story is. true. The spine of the of the story is. true. And all of the ribs that come off. of it are, you know, they maybe didn't. happen, but it's created to tell. a story and and the point of the story. is more important than the actual. historical accuracy of the story itself. But I agree with you that it it's a way. for the Iliad and the Odyssey are a way. for the Greeks to acknowledge what. happened to them. That collapse of the.

whole world. >> Everything, right? >> Yeah, it's not just about the. significance. You're right. Yeah, the. significance is not just about the story. itself. It's about how everything fell apart and. the Greeks ended up where they were. at that point in time where they're just. like. just farmers, you know, they they lost. all their power, they lost this whole. magnificent world and and that's this. thing that ties them back to this early. time and uh and I think the Aeneid is. the same thing. It's a way to. tie the people living in the classical.

area to the Bronze Age and acknowledge. the collapse of just the whole world. itself. And it's amazing that the. Egyptians were able to escape that, you. know, and I think it's Ramses the Third. that uh he says he says that he repelled. the Sea People, he drove them out. And. Egypt survived. And that I mean, can you. imagine. what the Greeks and other Bronze Age. people thought when they go to Egypt and. they're like they're like these guys. survived the end of the world. They were. around way before everybody else was and. they still survived all of it. And you.

know, that really comes from that really. comes from the Egyptians being um. the most conservative civilization in. human history. They don't change. They. don't change the rules. Art itself in Egypt didn't evolve. It it. mean it changed and and and they made. new forms of it, but the but the the art. itself was actually an expression of. eternity, an expression of divinity. itself. And that depiction [snorts] of the. pharaoh smiting his enemy began in 3100. BC and never ended throughout all of.

Egyptian history. Even the Ptolemies. present themselves that way. It was so. important and vital and crucial. to the success of the Egyptian world. that everything stayed the same forever. and they never changed. So, they were. they were as defensive and aggressive as. they needed to be. Um they really. controlled like their immigration. I. mean, they they kept the they kept the. percentages of Egyptians like just. right. Like everything was just right. from the very beginning and they never. changed any of it because they saw other. cultures around them evolving and.

changing over time, and they would. collapse. These people would change over. time, and they would collapse. Egyptians. never changed, and then. the it it it's a long, slow grind to a. halt for the Egyptians. And, you know, that's why people looked at them as like. just these giants that loomed over the. ancient world. It's It's really amazing, man. You know, that's the that's the. thing is when you were talking about. when you said earlier when we were. talking about. the Olmecs, and and you were saying, "I. really don't think people understand. this these vast periods of time.". The longer you spend.

in the ancient world playing around with. If if you spent anybody or anybody. watching, if you spend a year intensely. studying all the events that happened. let's say between the Bronze Age. Collapse and like the beginning of of. civilization. yeah, as we acknowledge it around 3100. BC, when all these cultures really pop. off, you will realize how long 2,000 years. is. You'll have a new-found respect for. it because we spend so much time.

thinking about like, "What happened. 12,000 years ago?" When you think about. 5 or 6,000 years ago, you're like, "Ah, it's not really that You If you really. get into studying it, you'll realize, "Oh my god, that's a long time ago.". because you'll you'll have a new-found. appreciation for how long a thousand. years is, you know. A a a person who. grew up as an Olmec, those heads had. been there forever. Their grandfather's, grandfather's, grandfather's knew they. were there forever, and as far as I. know, always would be. >> Yeah. It's that long of a time. What are. you working on now before I let you go?

>> [snorts]. >> Yeah, so so we got those LiDAR projects. we spent some time talking about, just. going over it. It's we got this LiDAR. project working with Basecamp, Terra. Terra Incognita Research Institute. We. want to We want to perform the biggest. LiDAR scan ever done in the Amazon. Should we join your Patreon and support. your work? No, I don't I don't have. anything like that live yet. But, if. people want to learn more about it, they. can go to Terra Terra Incognita Research. Institute. Uh. Um. I'll By the time this comes out, I'll. have it linked somewhere on on my social. media or on my YouTube or somewhere.

people can go check out. They can donate. if they want, but I think the biggest. thing is just being aware and and. supporting when we, you know, do put out. uh you know, calls for people to be able. to help or put out videos or something. like that. So, we're doing that in the. Amazon. And then uh I'm working with Basecamp. We're uh scanning a bunch of sites in. the Melon Builder world to try to. recreate and revitalize civilization in. the American East Coast. Um. I'm working on uh. I'm working on I got two series on. YouTube that I do. I do one that's the. First Explorers where I take people back.

to like the first time that. documented explorations happened in. certain periods. >> Your videos are great. Is Luke Caverns. out yet? >> you. And so uh so I do that and then I. had started this one called the called. American Wilds, which is um. it's like frontier history. So, it's all. the weird stuff that people didn't know. was going on in the Americas. Like, when. Europeans first arrive in the Americas, they get a glimpse of what of what this. world looked like and they write it. down, and nobody is making anything. about them. So, the So, episode one was.

me. basically proving that jaguars were on. the East Coast. Uh this next one I'm uh. I'm doing one right now on uh this lost. colony of Magellan that was found in. Chile. Uh so, that that's kind of what. I'm working on and then um. Yeah, I got a um later this year, I I've. been teasing this book called uh Olmec. Enigma that I'm going to write, but. actually. I think that my time is better spent. making uh virtual lecture series. So, it's going to be like a rather So, the.

chapters of the books, you know, it's. going to be 10 chapters long. They're. actually going to be. I don't know, roughly 40 to an hour long. videos. And it'll be like a series that. people can get in one way or another. I. don't know. But that's kind of that's. It's of the stuff I'm working on right. now. >> I love it. Yeah. Fascinating. conversation. Hopefully the first of. many. And I think that LiDAR is uh I. think LiDAR is the future of uh of. outlaw archaeology, archaeology in. general. Like people say the age of. exploration died in the age of. exploration, but man, LiDAR and GPR with.

um you know, it's still expensive, but. I'm just so lucky I'm able that I'm able. to work with these guys and uh they do a. freaking crazy job. Maybe you can come. back and we can go through some images. Well, yeah, man. If uh we want to do. this LiDAR project later this year, I. it's. there's going to be some amazing stuff. that that comes out of that. Um. especially here in the Mound Builder. world, too. I know you have a big. respect for the Mound Builder people, which is. uh which is key, man. There's so many.

people overlook them cuz they think the. mounds aren't impressive cuz they're. hills of dirt. Dude, there's so much. more going on in uh the Mississippian. world than people realize. So, dude, we. should definitely do uh we should. definitely do some LiDAR stuff in the. future. We're going to do it. Luke. Caverns, everybody. Thanks, brother. Thanks, man. That was Luke Caverns. We covered the. Olmecs, the Minoans, Alexander the. Great, and what LiDAR is finding. underneath the Amazon. Let's break it. down. Here's what checks out. The LiDAR. discoveries are real. Published.

archaeological surveys. >> [music]. >> have confirmed pre-Columbian cities in. the Amazon. We're talking geometric. monoliths, superhighways, settlements. far larger than anything anyone thought. possible. It is there. The LiDAR is. finding it. The The Minoan facts are. solid. There's no debate about that. Their script, Linear A, their writing, still hasn't been deciphered. We don't. even know what they called themselves. >> [music]. >> Now, think about this. They built over 100 palaces on Crete. We're talking. 1,000 rooms palaces. They [music].

dominated the Mediterranean for 1,000. years. 1,000 years. >> [music]. >> We don't know what they called. themselves. Akrotiri on Santorini was the wealthiest. city on Earth before the eruption. Zero. bodies, zero valuables. They knew. something was coming. But, where did they go? I love that story. [music]. Ectodermal dysplasia is a real condition. that causes fang-like teeth and abnormal. nail growth like claws. Luke's. ware-jaguar theory that the Olmecs.

selectively bred people in this. condition [music] as a shamanic priestly. class, well, that's his original take. But, the ratio is real. There are only. 17 Olmec heads. There are thousands. [music] of stone ware-jaguars. I never heard that one before. The. Atlantis math, I love this, too. Plato's Timaeus puts Atlantis 9,000. [music] years before Solon. So, that. places it at 9,600 BC. Guess what? That's the Younger Dryas. So, that date.

[music] matches the flood myths. But, there's a theory that the Egyptian. priests were telling Solon the number of. lunar months, not years. Now, if that's. true, 9,000 becomes 900 years before. Solon, [music] about 1,500 BC. The. Minoan collapse happened around 1,600. BC. Scholars have made this argument in. peer-reviewed journals. [music]. Either date is cool. The 365 tsunami hit. Alexandria. That's documented. Ships. were being thrown on top of buildings.

It was insane. Now, whether it destroyed. Alexander's tomb or not is speculation. People still debate it. The mainstream, for the most part, says the tomb was. lost sometime in the 4th century AD. The. tsunami gives a mechanism. So, Luke is. picking the most dramatic explanation. from real evidence. I tend to agree. What could really. survive that? Luke Caverns is rebuilding. lost worlds with technology that didn't. exist 15 years ago. Now, whether you. accept every claim or not, the sites. he's flagging are going to produce. papers. You can find him at. youtube.com/lukecaverns.

Until next time, be safe, be kind, and. know that you are appreciated. >> [music]. >> Oh, oh, oh. >> [music]. >> I played Pleiades and Area 51. A secret. code inside [music]. the Bible said I was.

>> [music]. >> I love my UFOs and paranormal. fun as well as music. >> [music]. >> So, I'm singing the lyrics as I should. But then another conspiracy theory. becomes the truth, [music] my friends. And it never ends. [singing]. No, it never ends. >> [music]. >> I fear the crab got stuck inside my home.

with MK Ultra. [music]. I've been awake to aware. [singing]. Did Stanley Kubrick [music] fake the. moon landing alone on a film set? Or. were the shadow [music] people there? The Roswell aliens just fought the. smiling man, [music] I'm told. And his name was cold. >> [singing]. >> But I can't believe. I'm dancing with the phantoms.

Dancing with the phantoms. with that alien [music]. and the wild wild. west all. through the night. All I ever wanted was to just [music]. keep the truth from the wild wild west. all through the night. >> [music].

>> The mothman sightings and the solar. storms still come to [music] a god. there, the secret city underground. Mysterious number stations, planets are. [music] purple, too. Project Stargate. and what the dark watchers found. >> [music]. >> We're in a simulation, don't you worry, though. The black knight satellite in space.

So, I can't believe [music]. I'm dancing with a. Andromeda [music] Thursday nights with. AJ, and the wobbles on the. beat all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the. truth, so the wobbles on the beat. all through the night. Andromeda Thursday [music]. nights with AJ, and the wobbles. on the beat.

all through the. All [singing and music]. I ever wanted was to just hear the. truth, so the wobbles on the. beat all through the night. >> [music]. [music].

>> Time to dance more, >> [music]. >> because she is a camel, and camels love to dance. when the feeling. is right, no wasting. time. >> [music]. [music]. [bell].