The Basement: Luigi Vendittelli | Why Bob Lazar Skipped Congress to Film in Montreal

Today I'm talking with Luigi Venditelli, former national director of Muon Canada. and the filmmaker behind S4: The Bob. Lazar story, now streaming on Amazon. Prime Video. Luigi spent 5 years. building the most detailed 3D recreation. of Bob Lazar's S4 facility ever put on. film. And it started with a cold call to. Lazar himself. >> And he answered. >> Yep. >> Is Bob still taking calls? Cuz I got a. great business idea for him to endorse. >> No. No, you don't. It's a fitness app.

Crossfit 51. Every workout is you. running from a black helicopter. inside a replica UFO. Sleek, modern, and. in the bathroom, an optional probe. >> That's enough. What Bob found inside the. UFO is the part that stays with you. There's a detail about how light behaves. in the craft that Bob couldn't have. known. Not unless he was actually there. Today, we also get into his friendship. with an aerial school witness, his two.

years training under Dr. David Jacobs, and his grandfather's 1965 sighting that. started all of it. This one goes places. you don't expect. Let's go down to. [music] the basement. Hey, [music] you can watch the Y Files. on Spotify. New video episodes every. Monday and Friday. [music] And premium. subscribers get fewer ads, which means. fewer interruptions when things [music]. start getting weird.

>> Luigi Ventatelli, welcome to the. basement. >> It's such a pleasure. >> Um, >> thank you for having me. >> You're welcome. I'm going to try not to. to nerd out too much on the 3D stuff. cuz, you know, we do that here. >> That's great. Let's do it. >> Um, so I have to watch a lot of. documentaries for what I do and so. they're mostly terrible. Um, so when I. got your screener, I didn't I didn't. know much about you. Um, I certainly. knew Bob's story. I I threw it on for a. couple of minutes to see like what am I. in for. >> and the first thing that grabbed me is. the music is unbelievable. It's so good.

>> A a big shout out to James Gray who's. the composer who did all that. >> really. It it has a like a Blade Runner. Vangelis vibe and I loved it. I thought. maybe is it just going to be the credits. but it goes through the whole thing. It's so atmos it's really well done. He. he and I he reached out to us for he's. from Scotland. And James is a BAFTA. award-winning composer and said, "I want. to work with you guys. I'm going to do. all this for free for now and we'll. figure something out." And I'm like, cuz.

I I didn't have a When he reached out, we're kind of starting to run low on. budgets. I'm like, "This is going to. cost a lot of money." And he says, "No, I have a passion for this. I want to. help you." And he said he sits down with. me. I grew up with my father being a big. opera and classical music fan. And I. wanted the film to have a memorable. music to it. And I said, "My father made. me grow up with Joseeppe Verde music.". And he says, "Jusp perfect." And he knew. everything about it. And he and I said, "But I also have it has to have like a.

an 80s ominous to it." He says, "Done. Let me let me play let me send you some. stuff when I come up with it." And he. did. And we went, "Okay, we're working. with you.". >> It's perfect. I I mean when you released. the uh the soundtrack, I downloaded it. immediately. So that's that's rolling in. my car. >> That's great. >> Let's start with your grandfather's. story. >> Yeah. >> He's out in the balcony. You're What. happened? >> So [clears throat and cough] in um in. 1965, my mother's father, my grandfather, who.

was basically like my second father. I I. spent a lot of time with him when I was. in Italy as a kid and and Montreal and. as a kid, like we always were together. all the time. He would take me around. Rome. I know Rome because of him. He was. one of the most important people in my. life. And he was such an honest, dedicated grandfather. Like I I was like. his son basically. So So and he was a very big reason why I.

spoke Italian. He's very strict actually. when it came to that. He says you have. to learn it perfectly. So, I was able to. learn Italian and speak it like the. people in Rome did. That was important. We stayed in Rome anyway. And so, in. 1965, uh, 5 years after he moved to Montreal. with my grandmother, my mom, and her. sister, uh, he was outside on a balcony. with a friend of him, a friend of his.

who was visiting from Italy. His. friend's name is Curado Zena, who was a. famous soccer player in Italy, by the. way. And they were outside on the. balcony smoking a cigarette as most. people did in the 1960s. And in front of. the apartment building, it was a field. It was like a open field at the time. They hadn't built yet. And he's looking. out at the horizon and sees this orange. light coming in really fast. He says. really, really fast. And so it caught. his attention and he, you know, motioned.

to his friend. Look at that. And so his. friend turned around and they said the. time it took them to kind of stabilize. themselves to, you know, look at this. thing. It was above them. That's how. fast from the horizon. So that's a fast. object. >> And he saidisco. volante. It was a flying saucer. Flying. disc. Okay. It was silver. >> It was a perfect circle. >> It was metallic. >> Metallic per silver. Metallic perfect. circle. And it had flames coming out of.

it. And he was like, "What is that?" And and. he says completely silent and flew very. fast over them. So they ran inside the. apartment. My mom remembers this. She. was in in inside the apartment playing. with her sister and remembers both my. grandfather and Curado walking in going. disco like screaming and they run to the. other side and they're getting scared. like what's going on? And they went to. the other window and it was already on. the other horizon. And.

my grandmother was there and she was. like, "Yeah, you know, he and Kada ran. in freaking out that they saw. We didn't. see anything cuz they it was gone." But. I think what happened was she believed. it to a certain degree and so did my mom. because she was there. Not believed the. flying saucer, but something flew over. the house. >> Cuz your grandfather wasn't someone to. make up stories. >> Oh god. My grand first of all, my. grandfather [clears throat] first. extremely old school Catholic Italian.

like old school very uh very strict in. terms of how he brought brought me up, you know, raised me, always, you know, sit properly at the table, always wash. your hands, always wear good shoes, always be nice to people, like go to. school, study, like very old school. And. he was not the type at all to invent. some story like that. And he was also I. I should say back during the Second.

World War, he was a prisoner in a. concentration camp in Hanover, Germany. So he spent two years as a concentration. camp uh uh he in a concentration camp. and almost died. >> Why was he in a camp? >> He was an Italian military and the and. the SS came into uh the village, grabbed. actually got caught at a train station. So he and other soldiers were were taken. at a train station train station, put in. a train and he said I there was no seats.

and he says I was standing all the way. to Germany and we were not allowed to. sit down. So that that was a horrible. thing apparently but he stayed in. Hanover in a concentration camp and and. he eventually got all this paperwork and. was uh also later on the German. government uh sent a lot of money to my. grandfather because of that. he was able. to prove that he was a um a prisoner and. the government uh the German government. actually had a compensation plan for uh.

prisoners that were sent to. concentration camps. So he he got a. bunch of money back in the early 2000s. because of that. And. >> so the historians who are screaming. right now um Italy and Germany were they. were allies for a while. >> Yeah. >> Until. >> until they weren't. >> Until they weren't. >> Absolutely. And when they turned on the. Italians, they turned on the Italians. viciously. Mhm. >> Not a little bit. I mean, my grandmother. used to say all the time. She would talk. about the horrors of the Holocaust and. all that stuff, but she would always. say, "We were also victims.".

>> Yes. >> You know, so it's it's something that a. lot of people sometimes wonder, "Really? The Italians?" Yeah. Yeah. It was a lot. of people died and and and that was a. horrible time. But anyway, being in the. military, he said, "I knew what. aircrafts were." He even remembered when. he was saved in Hanover, he remembered. saying, "I would I could see the planes. with the black star on them." It was the. Americans. So he he always said, "The. planes with the black stars saved us.". Which is a cool thing because it's the.

American military that came saved them. >> And um [clears throat] I get choked up. because I remember the stories really. really well. And uh anyway, he knew. about this stuff and he's not a guy who. used to lie to me or lie to anybody for. that matter. So I took him very. seriously and I'm like he saw a flying. saucer and he would say this. occasionally in the house you know when. people come over some my grandmother. would be like you know say that story. and then he would say the story and.

everybody'd be laughing. It was like. ahaha that's ridiculous you know and he. was never laughing. He was always the. one guy in the room who was wasn't. giggling, wasn't laughing, and I always. used to like look at him and go, "Why is. everybody laughing?" It didn't it didn't. make sense to me. >> Did he get annoyed? >> No, he was sad. I saw him I I I think he. was sad. It wasn't He wasn't annoyed. >> What about Curado? Did he ever mention. the story again? >> I I don't I'm sure he did, but he was. living in Italy. Curado was living was.

was visiting my grandfather and my. grandmother in Montreal. they went back. to Italy. So, I'm sure he had But back. then, how how how are people keeping. track through a letter? >> You're not going to start getting, you. know, it's not it's not like today where. you could text and and talk all the. time. So, there was there was big. distances in communication back then. So, that that's how it was. >> Uh but he would always be very very. perplexed. I would see him like kind of. disappointed. There's the the right. word. Disappointed that it was always a.

joke to him. So, I took it very. seriously. I remember it it it sparked. something in me and I said, "He doesn't. lie. What did he see?" Like, you know, why are we why are we pretending that. didn't happen? And obviously, you know, as a kid, I read about flying saucers on. on whatever I would find. So, I'm like, is that stuff real? I wasn't sure, but I. was like, he certainly saw something. So, it it sparked a whole journey in my.

life, let me tell you. and and it. changed everything for me. I think that. was without a doubt the moment that it. got me on a trajectory and I never. stopped, you know. >> And how old were you when you made that. decision? >> Nine. >> Nine. >> Yeah. >> So, take us from age nine to Muon. >> Well, when I first started looking Well, I wanted to get information on it and I. was a I was a real geek when I was a. kid. I was I I guess I was really in You.

got to remember this like the '8s, right? It's not popular to be a geek in. the '8s. I don't know if you remember. that. >> Tell me, girl. >> Yeah. Okay. Like it it was bad. So I was. like uh like I would use my summers to. really dive deep on on science stuff. because actually there was nothing on. flying saucers that I could find, especially in Montreal. So, I had to. just I I thought if I buy astronomy. books, I'm going to learn about flying. saucers. I that's my you know, I'm a.

kid. I'm very naive. So, I have I still. have all my astronomy books from when I. was a kid. I used to get a small. allowance, put money aside. I would help. my grandparents at the market. My. father's parents were at the fruit. market. I would help them. I get money, put it aside, and buy astronomy books. And my mom was always like, "You're. spending all your money on books about. space." like she was really like why. don't you go out and play you know it. was it was I was a real geek so anyway. and I got really obviously I got really. educated on astronomy cuz I'm reading.

them but there was never anything about. flying saucers at the end of the books. there was always like a few pages. potentiality of life in the universe and. I'm like okay you know like but this is. not giving me anything and eventually we. were we went to Platsburg New York and. that's just about 45 minutes from. Montreal drive my mom my grandfa my mom. and my grandmother would go there. shopping all the time cuz the stores in. America were much better than the stores. in Montreal at that time. Even a small.

place like Platsburg had way better. stuff than Montreal. Really? >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was so much so. much cool stuff. So we would go there. almost like every second or third. weekend. So my sister and I in the back. seat and I I I remember playing Michael. Jackson in my in my Walkman and going to. Platsburg. And actually every time I. listen to Michael Jackson I remember. those trips going to Platburg and. basically in a bookstore I see something. of Muon. I see a Muant. I think it was.

like a pamphlet they had and I'm like oh. my god, you know it's like something. about UFOs and you could become a member. and I'm like I I couldn't wait to fill. it up and send it out. So I sent it and. they said what's your specialty? And I'm. I don't know. I was I was like 12 years. old or something and I said I don't know. astronomy because I had read so much. So, my original first card I ever got. said specialty astronomy. That was. crazy. But I I received a letter from. them when I applied for it. And it was.

uh Walt Andres, who was the direct. executive director, you know, uh a big. director of Muon. And he said, "You are. officially the youngest member of Muon. in the world." And that actually uh. intimidated me. I got scared. I remember. going, "Oh, maybe I like now what do I. have to do? Am I too young? Like, do I. have responsibilities now?" I was like, "Maybe I I bit off too much here, you. know, like I don't want to I I felt like.

maybe I should call them and tell them. I'm not an astronomer, you know, like. [laughter]. that's what I thought was like, you. know." Anyway, uh I started up I I. obviously subscribed to the Muon. Journal. I started reading about all. that stuff. That was really interesting. to me cuz finally I was getting traction. on the stories about UFOs and all that. Obviously they were called UFOs back. then, not UAP. And uh. >> I still call them that. I'm not I'm not.

with that. >> narative. Yeah. I'm a UFO guy. Exactly. So. >> and so basically that propelled me into. the more I read about it, the more I. wanted to read about it. And I had to do. it in in kind of in hiding. I remember. my friends would come over. I had a lot. of people that made fun of me because I. was into UFOs. I was younger and it's. like the '8s. It was not cool. >> It wasn't cool. >> It wasn't cool. It was not cool. It was. not something that people would always. make fun of me because I was into UFOs.

>> What are they saying? What are they. saying to you? >> Oh, it it was just like, "Oh, you. believe in that stupid stuff?" You know, like basically, why do you believe. that's crazy? Luigi's a freak. you know, and it's like why, you know, why am I a. freak? But the I think it was like a. stigma. It was like 100% a public. perception of UFOs. I'll say even now, and it kind of feels good to say it on a. big platform like yours. When I went to. my prom, I'll never forget, there must.

be a video of this somewhere. Somebody. from my prom must have videotaped this. uh back then. And I graduated in 1989. when Bob Lazar went public and uh the. director of the school was up on stage. and he was handing up handing the. diplomas at at prom. And uh. >> well, you got your diplomas at prom. >> Yeah, they gave it to us at prom. I. remember that. Okay. >> And basically he said, "And now Luigi. Vendatelli, the guy who believes in. aliens, and everybody was laughing and I. had to go pick up my diploma while.

everyone's like, "Ah, you know, >> teacher's roasting you.". >> Yeah. And I I I'll never forget and I'll. never forget it. I'm I'm talking about. it now, right? And I was like, "Wow.". And so that kind of killed my interest. to go too fur because I was getting to. the age where I wanted to start dating. girls and go out and have friends and. you know it's it's like I don't want to. be a geek all the time. So I was doing. it in hiding most of the time. >> What were you doing any work from? Were. you investigating? >> The only thing I did actually Yes. One.

thing I did was there was one case, you. probably remember it, the Gulf Breeze, Florida case, right? >> And I found that to be interesting. because there's so many pictures and. there was a guy called Ed Walters who. had taken those pictures and I took it. upon myself to write him. I just found. his address. I don't remember where. I. wrote him and I said, >> you know, I'm this guy in Montreal. I'm. interested. Is there any more stuff that. you could send? And I have an original. letter obviously from him. I have a. videotape he sent me uh that I still.

have and it was made for me and it was. Ed Walters talking to me about what had. happened and included his home videos of. what he saw the craft. Right. >> Wow. Was that the acorn shape? >> Yeah. It kind of. >> It was weird. >> It was not an acorn but Yeah. It was. like a Yeah. Like a fat. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Like a Let's call it a fat flying. saucer. >> It wasn't a disc. It was. >> It wasn't a disc. It was very Yeah. And. it I mean there's been a lot of. controversies, a lot of things. apparently saying it's not real, it's. not true. I don't know. But at the time.

it wasn't determined to be fake yet. And. so I was in communication with him. And. at and so the local Muon chapter found. out I must have sent a letter to some. And by the way, everything was letters. back then. It's just that there was no. email, right? So I had sent a letter to. somebody saying I'm in comm I was super. excited. I'm communication with this. guy. So they invited me to a muon uh. event in Quebec, Montreal. And I I I. tell my dad, "Could you drive me to this.

place?". >> Wait, how old are you now? >> I I was 13. Okay. >> Okay. And my dad's like, "Okay, what's. going on?" And I said, "Oh, I have to do. a presentation." [laughter]. My dad's like, "What is what?" So, we go. into this place. I'll never forget. He. came there because he was really. concerned. And he and he walks in the. room and there's all these people with. white hair and he says, "What are you. doing here?" And I said, "Dad, you'll. see." You know, and and they, "Oh, how. are you?" You know, and they they were. kind of very nice to me cuz I was a kid. Obviously, they're like super happy that.

somebody of my age group was there. I. was the obviously the only young guy. there. And I and I talked I didn't. present it. It was more talk about, oh, you know, I've communicated this the. video. They played the video and and it. it was the very first time I. participated in something and I got in. the car and my dad said, "Every time you. talk to these people, let me know." Cuz. for him it was just like, "What are you. doing with all these adults?". >> Right. >> Right. Cuz you're a kid. And I said, "Well, I go they they told me to come. here, you know, >> and you're taking it seriously, right?".

>> Oh, absolutely. It was very One of the. things that I'll I'll never forget is my. dad's no longer with us, but he was. always supportive. always. He was the. most supportive dad in the world in what. I was doing. He was also conservative, Catholic, old school, but 100%. supportive in what I was doing. He. supported me every time he would hear. somebody make fun of me cuz I was into. UFOs. He would back me up at 100%. So,

that was something that was amazing. my. mom too and she's she's still with us. and she's freaking out that her son made. a movie. But you know and for me it was. at least my parents are not against this. cuz a lot of people also had that. happened to them where their parents or. their families were not supportive of. the looking into this topic. So that's. the first thing I'd done and that. essentially then got me really I mean I. I must have read I don't know 40 50.

books when I was in my teens about it. I. found a picture recently. I should send. it to you. I sent it to Chris Ramsey. who's a friend of mine. I said dude. check this out and it's a picture of my. bedroom back then with all my books and. you see all my UFO books and it's an old. picture in my you know and he was like. oh my god. is like, "Yeah, you see, I. was a freaking geek, you know, like all. the books were about UFOs." So, I was. all I did was read about it for the. longest time. >> Definitely send us that picture. We'll.

throw. >> I will I will. And it's like there's my. telescope in the picture and stuff and. like legit geek. So, >> it sounds very familiar to me, Luigi. You're you're home here. >> Good. That's well I mean now it's cool. you know like now we're having a. conversation about this and I find that. so. >> such a breath of fresh air and I love. all these new people getting involved in. it and it's there's traction there's. people listening you know but and so all. that time I investigated obviously was. doing not investigations I guess just.

researching information like a lot of. people do and uh eventually got you know. really involved and uh became director. over the years and. >> but what were you doing in between? What. kind of investigations? What kind of. work? >> Well, the most the the biggest. investigations I personally participated. in were always in Quebec. >> Okay. >> Uh that's the ones I really put a lot of. effort on. I used to manage some of the. investigations that were happening. outside of the Quebec province, but I. wasn't the investigator. I was just.

basically managing the the. investigations. The ones I personally. partake uh participated in were a lot to. do with the uh black triangular crafts. that were out there. I participated in. uh investigating the one there was a big. event that happened in 1990 in Montreal. in Montreal downtown where they saw uh. something in the air in the clouds and. there was like a lot of witnesses. It's. called the the Plasbonur UFO event and a. very good friend of mine Marj wrote a.

book about it and uh basically. looked into a lot of local stuff that I. could be active in because I wasn't. traveling as I I also it's important to. note that was not my full-time job. That's not what not that didn't pay the. bills by the way. Okay, so it's. important to make that little caveat on. the side is that's not how you make. money. you didn't make money then and. you're not really making money now in. this field. And a lot of people who, you. know, call us grifters or something like.

that. It's like I I I would really like. to know where that money is because a. lot of times it's it's an investment out. and no return in. The only return is. information. That's it. Right. So I had. I I started a company in um many years. ago. I spent years in China going back. and forth in China. And. >> this is you were doing merchandise. I'm. a merchandiser. I'm a product developer, a brand developer, merch specifically. through merchandise. So I I basically. have been behind the scenes for many.

many years producing merchandise for. people who have brands, right? So it's. like when I see your your cups, you. know, basement and anything that's. merch, I would be the guy behind the. scenes developing stuff for people. I. also own uh a license in Montreal. I own. the the public transit commission. license. So, we do it's like it's like. when you go to New York and you see the. MTA subway stuff. Well, I have the. Montreal license for all of that. And. I've been producing stuff for the NHL.

and a whole a whole bunch of museums, some of the biggest museums in the. world. I produce stuff for them. So, that's what paid the bills, right? So, I. was doing that and that at the same. time. And as I was, you know, eventually. seeing that it was finally gaining. traction. And I and I say this, even a. long time ago, it was like a real. difference. Even 10-15 years ago, it was. still super super not good, but not as. bad as the the 80s and the early 90s.

>> Well, before you bring us up to date, what does an investigation even look. like if you're if you're inside Muon? >> So, the first thing that happens at Muon. is there's a CMS uh database they call. it. Okay. And. >> this is what customer management. >> Yeah. It's kind of like a customer. management, you know, it's like a a a. >> an internal uh you you you plug in all. the data of an investigation comes in. call comes in somebody. >> who's a field investig so they could. call they could call MUFON they they'll.

say all right we're going to refer you. to the local field investigator of your. area. So, if it's, you know, Nebraska or. something, they'll reach somebody out. there. That person then contacts the. witness, goes through a an an initial. call and kind of basically assessing, is. this even worth plugging in, >> cuz most aren't, right? >> I would say 98%. aren't. Okay. So, and and a lot of. people get upset when I say that, but. that's the truth. I mean, the reality is. a lot of people did think they saw.

something, but it wasn't it wasn't ET. Okay, it was it was a tremendous amount. of misidentifications or very, you know, ter like the moon is very bright, but if. it's behind a cloud, it could app. somebody who's not wearing their. glasses, they could see something else. There's so many aspects to it. So the. there's an initial you know screening. process and a lot of times through the.

screening process nothing happens but. then if there is something that happens. and there's a lot of cases by the way I. mean there's a lot of people that call. in and those things then get uh entered. in CMS so then the if the investigator. deems it to be worthy of either they go. meet with the uh witness if it's in. proximity to them or if they could do it. because a lot of them are doing this on. their on on their free time. Again, nobody's getting paid to do this or they. uh could do it over the phone. And now.

the beauty of Zoom or video calls has. probably cuz I'm not at in it anymore, but it's probably gotten even easier. because you could do a video call and. kind of save yourself a trip. You let's. say you go see the the witness, you meet. with them. I you know that also is a big. determinator of whether you're dealing. with somebody who is hon I don't want to. call them dishonest are they are they. honestly assessing it properly for.

themselves that's the that's the right. way of saying it's not not they're not. dishonest but are they just overly. excited. >> right. >> because there's a lot of that. >> of course if you if you go out looking. for something sometimes you're going to. find it. >> especially if you want it to be right. >> you know like I saw it I saw that what. did you You know, it's like a light. Okay. What did it do? It was just moving. near the trees. That that could have been a plane. You. know what I mean? No, I never see planes. there. Well, it doesn't mean the plane. didn't go there.

>> You know what I mean? So, it it it's so. sometimes it's a frustrating thing. And. I became. >> I was very st I was very strict by the. way. Uh I think the years of experience. was making me very strict. So I was also. not getting along with some of the. investigators who also they wanted it to. be that so that they could be an. investigator on a case. There's a lot of. hate that's going to come at me from. saying this, but that's the reality of. it. >> Well, the people know that Muon's kind.

of infamous for infighting and the. politics inside. >> uh between the believers and I don't. want to call you a skeptic, but it's. more like a tight funnel. That's right. >> If you have a tight funnel, then what. comes out is really important. That's. very that was crucial because otherwise. we're wasting resources. >> Yes. >> Period. >> The reality is regardless of how and you. know uh in terms of evidence obviously. everybody says you have a picture, you. have a video, do you have something? Do. you have you know uh tracks? You have a.

landing you know if they landed do you. have do you see something? Do you have. radiation? Do you have a detector that. you went there? Anything. So those are. obviously the ones that are of most. interest cuz now you have something you. have a tangible piece of something that. you could work with other than I was. outside. I was smoking a cigarette and I. saw light in the sky. Okay. Like and and. it and I say that thinking my that's. what happened to my granddad and that's. what made me go. So I'm not disputing. that that's not possible. But we have to.

be careful and not immediately saying. that's a flying saucer UFO or whatever. that when they have a picture or a video. and it is interesting then yeah that. information get would get put into CMS. there's a whole list of questions you. have to ask uh the person and then. there's also as a as a director I had. access to all uh investigations so I had. access to seeing if there was a pattern. in that area within a certain time so if.

somebody said I saw this um you know. long black object in the sky and they're. in Winnipeg. Okay. Well, do we have. anything around Winnipeg that's saying. that, you know, if you hear another one, oh, that's definitely of interest versus. no, I don't hear. So, it could be. interesting, but okay, what what do we. do with it? I still have people reach. out to me almost on a daily basis. Even. the fact that I did this film, they. think that I'm actively investigating. So, they'll be like, "Check this out. I.

I have a picture and it's like, you. know, it's like 8,000 ft away and it's a. little dot and I'm like, "Okay, what can I do with that?" You know, it's. not helping the I I appreciate it. I I I. understand the need to share it, but. we're not going to get anywhere with it. >> Even if I could zoom in and see that it. doesn't have wings, >> okay? >> Right. You know, this is not going to. make the cut. >> It's not going to make a cut. Right. So. there was a a lot of you know discarding. of stuff and and and there was.

>> Did you come across anything that that. passed all your tests? >> Oh absolutely you did. >> Oh absolutely 100%. Uh there again black. triangular crafts is the one I really. put a lot of effort in. There was. >> you saw the the object or we talking. lights in a shape? >> Oh object. Absolutely clearly undeniable. black triangular craft. >> Not a TR3B or anything. No. Well, again, you know, everybody says TR3B. I don't I. don't think it's a from what I heard.

from witnesses and from the time frames. that they come in, which I'll I'll say. this as I was investigating and we're. talking, you know, a good eight, eight, nine years of invest very very active. investigating. Um, you would I would. meet people who would be like, "Hold on, my wife will talk to you." you know, they had something happen and the wife. comes out and says, "Uh, I saw it in. 1996, >> right? >> And I never went public because I didn't. and my kids saw it." None. The kids are.

grown up. I had a case. In fact, the. witness saw the black triangular craft. I meet with the witness and then it's. his wife says she had seen it. She had. seen it with her kids like they were. remarried or something and the kids. weren't at home. And I said, "Could I. speak to them? They're they're adults. now. They were outside playing in 1996. and they said there was a black. triangular craft right on top of the. trees with all these colorful lights. They said come in French like a. Christmas tree. >> and it's like oh so and and I spoke to.

these adults and they say yeah yeah yeah. it it was there. Now this is something. that wasn't current. This was in 1996. They never reported it because they. didn't report it. But because now. somebody was in contact with me. reporting it, oh, let me go get her. And. then boom, boom, boom. And you're. finding out, oh, really? A Black. Strangler Craft was around here in 1996. It what it did is it made me start. questioning, is this really a government. thing? Like, is it if it was the.

government, and it's always possible, by. the way. >> Mhm. I don't I don't ever omit the. possibility that it's terrestrial. By. the way, that's a very important thing. You can't assume ET is driving this. thing. If it's terrestrial, well, that. means that something was already in play. in 96. That's long time ago, right? And. if that's the case, why would they be. flying at low altitude or hovering if.

you want to call that no sound in in the. Laurentians north of Montreal. where there's nothing there's no reason. for being out there. There's no air. there's an airport, but it was it's a. it's a FedEx lens there. UPS it's a. cargo airport. There's nothing that. would be like, "Yeah, the government is. testing secret aircrafts and they're. flying over people's cabin." Like the. Laurentians are known for ski resorts. and all that. Like, why would you fly.

there? Yeah. The sound is always. interesting because we're here in Vegas. so we see test flights all the time. >> They're so loud they'll set off every. car alarm in the city. So, when you say. it made no sound, that's that is a big. deal. And there was one incident that I. the mo the most credible I would say the. one that really really struck me. happened in 2013. The the gentleman. reached out to me in 2014 cuz he found. out I existed because he didn't know who. to call in 2013 and uh I re I finally.

reached out to him. He was in. southwestern Ontario. and he said, "This is a normal everyday, you know, bluecollar guy driving a. pickup truck, wearing a baseball cap, plays baseball, cool dude, but not a UFO. guy. He's coming home 2:00 in the. morning. He was with his friends driving. in the middle of southwestern Ontario. turns and there's a a small town that.

you blink and you miss it in in um in. Ontario and he says he sees what looked. to him like fire in the sky. >> and it was coming down and he thought it. was a helicopter on fire. So he's just. like, "Oh," you know, like, "Let me go. help these guys." And it went to the. right. So he turned to the right and. he's driving, you know, trying to see. where it's going down. Eventually stops. his truck because there's a there's a. church and the triangular craft. It was. a black triangular craft. He saw it. He.

says, "I could clearly see it." Had had. lights on each end and in the middle of. it had a plasma. It looked like plasma. He said it looked like lava moving. >> I've heard this description before. And. it was right above the uh church tower. where the cross is. And he was like, you. know, he stops the truck. He he stops. the truck in right on the road and puts. it in park. Opens the door and puts one. foot out and one foot in truck and he's. looking up at this thing and he's like,

"What the hell is that?" And he says in. an instant and he says it was so fast. that it was at I let's say 100 meters. away 100 yards away it went right in. front of him at 20 ft below the the. traffic the the street light. >> below. >> below the street light. Okay. >> How big was this thing? >> He says it was around 20 feet. >> Yeah. >> In in in length if you want to call it. He said it looked like it was a shiny. black diamond. They It looked like shiny.

black diamond. Uh little bricks. He he. drew it for me like these little bricks. And he said that the the top of it. wasn't flat. It had like a It was like. flat and then came up a little bit at a. point, but he couldn't see it very well. from this angle. And he's looking at. this and he's like, "What? What's this?". And he said there was not it was first. of all he said it didn't make any sound. but it also.

took all the sound away. I couldn't hear. anything. >> That's interesting. >> Yeah. He says it was complete. It's like. when you're in a in a sound room where. you don't hear anything. He said that's. what it felt like. It was complete. silence. >> That's going to track with some of the. physics with Bob's story and others. >> I I believe so. And so now what made it. really interesting when I was when he's. describing this to me and he said. something that made me kind of believe. him really quickly. He says I thought.

that they had a projector somewhere and. that they were going to come out with. balloons and I was going to be on candid. camera or something cuz he's like what. am I looking at? You know what I mean? He's like there it has to be a. projection for it to move so quickly. That's what he's he's not thinking it's. a real thing. He's like, "Where's the. cameras?" You know, >> I think that's why there's so few. photographs or video of things like. that. My brother had a sighting similar. You're so out of your element. You're. you're not thinking. You're just like, "What is this?". >> And he said it to me. He said, "Luigi,

if I took out my camera, my phone, and. snapped a picture, I would have had the. best picture in the world of one of. these things. But it didn't even occur. to me." He said, "I was going, what am I. looking at? It's happening, you know, live, so you're just focused. He says it. it tilted a little bit. There was a a. tiny little cemetery right to his right, really small cemetery, and it just went.

like that and it moved so quickly over. the cemetery ground. And he's, you know, he's scared cuz now it moved again. So. he's just like, "What's it going to do?". And it's and it had a a red um a laser, if you want to call it a laser, but it. in a he said it it was like a sewing. machine. Da da da d d d d d d d d d d d. d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d. d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d. d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d. d d d d d d d d d d doing this on the. cemetery ground like a it was scanning. it but like the laser was going to like. really fast like a sewing machine. >> did you did you ever hear about the.

Devil's Den sighting. >> no. >> this is the exact same story craft same. laser beam. >> really. >> penur in in Wales similar but Devil's. Den is this exact story the craft the. thing in the middle and what really set. me off is this laser description they. said they saw the same thing this. repeating laser and it looked like it. was scanning their campsite. Exact same. story. >> Oh wow. I didn't know that. I didn't. know the story. So this is exactly what. he's seeing when he saw that. He said. that's when I got scared. >> Yep.

>> He says at that moment I got scared cuz. he's like is that a weapon? >> Cuz he doesn't know. He's just like what. is that thing? Why is it doing that? you. know. So he he kind of stepped into the. truck a little bit looking at it through. the cab the cabin window on the other. side and he said it basically just. tilted and slowly flew away. He says it. flew away behind the trees and that was. it and was it. Now when he met with me. he was so.

worried that I was going to make fun of. him. He was super worried and he kept. saying, "I'm Dude, I'm I I I really saw. this." And I'm like, "Okay, I believe. you." He's like, "I I don't want you to. think I'm crazy, man." I'm like, "No, I. I I don't think you're crazy." But he. was so concerned. It was so not his. thing that he thought, "I can't even. believe I'm talking about this because I. didn't think this could ever happen to. me." And I was like, "I I I believe. you." So, I even investigated him. I I I.

said, "To make sure I want a second. opinion. There's a a a man who I'm very. thankful for knowing. His name is. Professor Don Dandere from McGill. University in Montreal. He's written. books on this. He's a friend of mine. He's getting older now, but still doing. well. At the time, I called Don. He's a. he's a a PhD in perceptive psychology. He's he's done a lot of work for the. government and all that. He's very well. respected. And I said, I would like for. you to meet this witness just to assess.

the person. I I want to have a second. opinion. And I and I introduced. So Don. came out. We went to Ontario together. and met with him. And when we walked out. of there and got in the car, Don said. he's he's completely sane. He's a he's a. he's saying the truth. Well, he says. what felt like he was being 100% honest. And he this guy kept saying, "I I don't. want this to go public. I don't I don't. need the the you know the attention or. anything." So why would he do that? Why. would this guy not want any attention?

very credible. I, you know, for Don to. to kind of validate that for me because. I I'm if I get to a point where okay, I. really believe this, I need somebody. else to like validate that I'm not. missing something here, right? Y. >> and so it was interesting and then for. that to be validated that got me really. intrigued in what these cases were. happening in in with the black. triangular crafts. So I started mapping. them out. I can share this with you so.

you can show it on on the screen after. we're done. But I have a image of that. map of all the sightings of black. triangular crafts at that time all. around that area all the way to around. Lake Ontario to Toronto north of Toronto. and believe it or not in the Laurentians. in in Quebec. >> What do you think they were doing there? >> I have no idea. There's no pattern to. the sightings. >> I have no idea. No, they just people.

seeing it. >> Y. >> So between 2013 and 2017, there's 200 catalog cases in that area. That's a lot of people. >> Yep. >> Why would all these people claim to have. seen a black triangular craft? If even. if we went, which is unlikely, but if we. discarded half of them, that's still a. lot of people. And for every one of. those, there's 10 that didn't report it. >> Oh, for sure. I mean, that that's.

actually it's a really good point that. you raised because I had by by me doing. this, I met with people who didn't want. to report it, but they said, "Yeah, I. saw something, but I don't want to talk. about it.". >> Do you guys check with law enforcement. to see? >> Oh, I I absolutely I worked with the. >> because I was director, I had a contact. in all the different police. So, I also. worked with RCMP, which is federal. police. They would I had a contact with. them. I had a contact with MU police. I. had of course you have to with.

the provincial police there. There was a. Quebec police officer who saw it but he. didn't. His wife his wife talked to us. with her name but. >> he didn't want to. >> he didn't want to. Yeah. He was like no. no no no I don't want to. So we have his. testimony. He saw it but he wouldn't. talk about it. So, and this is. frustrating and it frustrates. a lot of people. Absolutely agree that. it's frustrating because they say, "Well, if it's evidence, why don't they.

want to talk it? Why wouldn't they why. wouldn't they put it out?" Well, think. about it. They have families, they have friends, forget us, forget forget forget the. audience who wants this. Their lives are. affected if they suddenly say, "I saw. something anomalous in the air." It's. their prom story for you. >> Exactly. >> They don't want that. >> They don't want that in their life. They. don't need it. And I respect that. because they have they have their own. personal reasons for that. So, it's an.

important thing to all to to bring up. when you're talking about investigating. this stuff because there's a human. component to all of it, too. >> So, I consider that to be uh some of the. most compelling stuff that I ever worked. on. and I eventually uh started working. alongside um one of the aerial school. witnesses. >> I was just going to ask you about your. interest in aerial school. Maybe just a. quick sum up of the this audience knows. the story, but a quick sum up of. Zimbabwe.

>> Zimbabwe is a case in 1994 uh in the. middle of a recess at 10:15 in the. morning at a at a small elementary. school in rural Zimbabwe in Rua. Zimbabwe. Uh kids were playing outside. Over 60 kids were playing outside and. the teachers were inside having a. teachers meeting and suddenly they see. three objects in the sky, three craft, three flying saucers if you want to call. them, silver discs. One of them landed. at about aund 100 uh meters, 100 yards. from the from the school from the they.

had a a place where they could play and. they had these logs, these wood logs. that were all around and they called. them the the the log barrier. So the. kids couldn't go beyond behind it. So. they play sometimes they would jump. around the log log barrier and the kids. are playing there and this thing landed. outside the log barrier. It landed and. they're all obviously what is that? What. is that? They heard a high-pitched sound. and it then it went away and then. they're seeing these these. they they didn't know what it was but. they saw people running right from a. distance and uh my friend who passed.

away Emily Trim who was one of the. witnesses there was next to Lisel Field. who is interviewed by John Mack in some. of these interviews. Mhm. >> They were and they and the and these. beings came close to the kids and they. were not human and they were not the. kids initially thought they were animals. of some type because they I mean these. are kids between 7 years old 12 years. old and so they were all looking at this. and there was these two beings uh that. were apparently dressed in black. jumpsuits standing obviously and big. black eyes and they started.

communicating to the kids. The kids. started seeing images in their minds and. some of those images were very terrible. images, very negative, very very. traumatic images. >> like what? >> Um, people dying, uh, no air, people. suffocating, uh, uh, images of of the. earth and and war and and things that we. I guess something that had to do with. what's happening or what could happen. And uh yeah and they they all saw an.

explosion at the end and it was like a a. big giant fiery explosion. This is not something that kids are used. to especially in rural Zimbabwe in 1994. So it it became a big story at at that. time obviously and these beings communic. and then they disappeared. They just. vanished and the school reset the bell. rang this everything disappeared. Kids. ran into school screaming you know what. they saw. teachers didn't believe them. Nobody believed them. They thought that,

you know, we got to go back to class. Let's go back, you know, got to go. study. And the kids are like, they're. freaking out. So, they eventually got to. a point where they realized the kids saw. something cuz they were freaking out. I. mean, there's no way you can calm 60some. kids that saw this. They're not going to. just go back to class and learn about. math. There's we got to talk about this. And so um they brought in Cynthia Hind. which was a muon investigator in South. Africa at the time. She came in with a. guy called Gunter who brought a um.

to check radiation. >> Geer County. >> Geer counter. Thank you. And so he they. went on on the school grounds and and I. have the pictures from uh Gunther and. you could see where it landed. >> I've seen those. You can see it. >> You could see it where it landed. Uh. there was no radiation detected on the. ground. So. >> but something crushed all that. >> something crushed all that right and uh. the kids were visibly affected. >> and uh event it got to new it got to Tim.

Leech which was a BBC reporter who ran. it as a big story on the BBC. He was. covering some of the atrocities that. were happening in Batswana and Zire at. the time. there's a lot of bad things. happening in Africa and uh he said this. was this is a big deal like these kids. he met with them he goes they're not. they're not lying everybody's saying the. same thing and it got to the the ears of. uh professor John Mack from uh Harvard. >> he was in great he was in uh in London. at that moment and decided to take a.

plane and fly down and interviewed a lot. of the kids and determined that they're. saying something that they saw. >> and we can see all those interviews. those are available. >> yeah and they're they're compelling I. mean you could in the eyes of those. kids, they saw something. Now, you know, a lot of um a lot of stuff related to. that. And I I I became very close. friends with Emily Trim. She was there. and had seen this and it affected her a. lot. Her brother, >> you dedicated your movie to her?

>> Yes, I did. >> Well, did you and Emily work together? >> I spent 10 years uh with Emily. Not Not. People thought I was dating Emily. I. never dated Emily. She was a she became. a very close friend of mine and had a. lot of uh trouble dealing with the. trauma of what had happened at Ariel and. something else that had happened to her. when she was 21. Again, related to all. this. By the way, for anybody listening, this was not the end of that with these. uh kids or the people that were there.

There was things that happened after and. that's not been reported. So there have. been a lot of people who've had things. that happened to them after which were. very traumatizing. >> Does this connect to your work with. David Jacobs? >> Yes, absolutely. >> Can can you explain who he is and what. >> David Jacobs? So this brought me to. really look into these contact events or. these encounters if you want to call. them. And uh I started reading more. about it. I already knew a lot of I had.

read a lot of the books in the past, Bud. Hopkins and all that, but I want to kind. of refresh it. It It's kind of like a. different section of the research. You. have to really separate yourself from. that and start looking into the. encounter stuff. And I uh I asked I. remember reading a couple of uh David's. books and I c and I called Don Dandere. who's a friend and I said I I'd really. like to talk to him and he says I can. arrange that. I'm I'm close with with uh. David. So he arranged that and uh we had.

some exchanges and he eventually in. invited me to go out to his house and I. spent you know some lot lots of time. with David and that relationship became. very important to me because he saw how. incredibly. interested I interested I was in. learning this but learning this on a. professional level not just a. superficial book like you could read a. lot about this stuff but it's also. written written in a way so it's. digestible for people.

>> Well, who is David and what did he do? >> David So yeah, my my bad. David Jacobs. is was. uh one of the most respected researchers. in abductions in the world. He was uh. one of the reasons why John Mack also. got involved in this. >> David was a psychologist. >> Was a psych. No, actually no, no, he's a. PhD in history. He's a history uh PhD. but he's not a psychologist. >> but known for regression therapy. >> Known for reg Absolutely. He he started.

he he when I met him uh he had already. been involved in this for 40 years. So. he had an a lot of uh experience in it. And when I when I went to his house for. anybody who knows um the abduction. experts back then it was like Bud. Hopkins was one of those. Mh. >> David had all of Butud Hopkins work in. his basement. All of it. >> Wow. And so. >> that's a lot of work. >> Oh yeah. And I went down he he took me. downstairs in his base in his basement. I'll never forget. And it was filled.

almost to the to where the windows were. cuz it like I'm talking stacks of files, filing cabinets, and cassette tapes. You. know the the cassette tapes. I mean. thousands of them. >> And he said, "This is all of Bud's work. I hope that's digitized somewhere. >> So, I was myself and Randall Nickerson. knew that that was at David's house. Randall actually helped move it there. because he was close to Bud Hopkins. And.

uh uh David said, "I don't know what I'm. going to be doing with this, but I I. need this to never be lost, you know.". And I said, "Let me know what whatever. how how I can help." Um he eventually uh. found a way to get it to the uh I. believe it's the Philadelphia. Museum or some educational museum has. all this work in their possession. somebody could go there and I I could. find out exactly I can't remember the. name now but you could go there and. access all it's all stored in the.

archives there so it's not lost right uh. which is good very very good and uh and. I spent two years uh train being trained. by David Jacobs. >> trained. >> yeah he would we would do we would do uh. at the time there was no zoom there was. uh uh Skype right so I had I can't I. don't remember how many we would do. Skype calls cuz he was in he was in. Philadelphia. I Montreal and we would do. them at night 8:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. So. we do 3 hours every night or every.

second night. And basically telling me. the ins and outs of this phenomenon, what to watch out for, what could be. perceived as evidence and it's not, what. could potentially be. not a real memory, you know. So there. was a lot of stuff that I learned in. that time including um some. very uh it's not confidential. It's kind. of like uh it's like when you when you.

work in something uh like this. you have to be careful how you word it. to the person that you're either. regressing, interrogating, speaking to, whatever. You have to be very cautious. what words you use. This is a criticism. of John's of John Mack work. It was kind. of leading. >> Exactly. You have to be very careful. about that because you could exactly. lead them or build some alternate. memory. It it's a very tricky thing. So.

you have to be very cautious also with. regressive hypnosis because it could you. could have lies in that. >> Sure. >> Okay. or or if not intentional. unintentional. >> you could create a memory. >> you could create a memory absolutely so. there was a lot of that you know I'm I'm. absorbing this obviously because I'm. very interested in in in the topic and. so that was in a very uh very rich. period of my life because I was learning.

a lot of this reading a lot of this and. every time and I was also while that is. happening I'm uh very close to Emily and. and she had not want to open up about. her her experiences and had decided to. open up to me but in in small steps and. I respected that you know because there. was so much emotion attached to it and. uh David's. training to me was always very important.

because I he always said he in fact he's. he's unfortunately uh not that well with. his health so he doesn't he's not he's. not active anymore but Um he would. always say whenever you meet somebody. who's had an experience and wants to be. regressed, convince them not to do it. >> Very interesting. He always said that. Says always do your best to convince. them not to do it. Even if they beg you. to do it, pay attention to how they are.

Make sure that they're not already. experiencing something traumatic in. their life. Like are they having marital. issues? Are they having health issues? Do they have problems with their job or. whatever? Because this will 100% bring. up some bad things whether they like it. or not and it could further damage. whatever is already happening in their. life. They don't need this and we don't. need this. We don't need and he would. say don't be uh selfish in wanting to.

know what their trauma is. >> This is another tight funnel guy. >> Absolutely. You have to be careful about. that. What did um you learn from Emily. that. you don't have to betray confidence. I. know she's passed recently. >> She's passed. Uh Emily was extremely. like we were I mean I can't even begin. to tell you how extremely close we had. become and. >> she was so generous with information. over. >> she really was and she was suffering a. lot. I mean, the the the the.

amount of people that wanted stuff from. Emily um was really was really a lot and. she would always close up and and not. want to to share. I had to that whole part of my life was. I think I I I'll say I felt like I. graduated. Okay. So all those years with. all the investigations and all that, I. felt like that was like I had become. like really top of my game. I was like.

in last year of high school and the the. oldest guy in in the school and now I. graduated and I'm going to college and. I'm the youngest guy and I'm learning. something completely new. >> Really? Yeah. That's how it felt because. when you when I went into the. communication contact and all that that. was not just uh it's not nuts and bolts. it becomes emotional and emotional is a. difficult thing. You don't you're no.

longer I'm no longer talking to you. about something that is logical. I'm. talking about an emotional response and. that is not the same. >> No. And it's trauma emotion. >> It's trauma emotion. Exactly. So I. became very conscious of the fact that I. don't want to spark. any trauma on somebody cuz I'm. inquisitive. You know what I mean? Or. I'm interested or I'm curious about. this. So I have to be I have to learn. all over again to be like, okay, because. if I can ask you, you know, is the. flying saucer it had tripods? Did it not.

have tripod? Like okay, you know, did it. have legs? No legs? Whatever. That's. like nuts and bolts. But when you were. crying, were you crying because you were. scared or were you crying because you. were traumatized? It's a completely. different interaction, right? So you. have to be very and and again I always. say I can't I used to say I can't. believe I'm the guy doing this because I. shouldn't be. There should be absolute. experts in psychology that are not.

sitting down with these people assessing. them or let's say trying to judge to see. what's their problem. >> Right? >> See what I mean? >> That's a good distinction. >> Yeah. It's like let's not look at them. as there's a problem. Let's find out. what happened. >> Right? >> There's a huge difference there. And. that's kind of where I used to be like, man, do we really have a lot to learn. here as people because here we want to.

know what is this? What is this? What is. all this? What what what's it all about? Well, we don't know. We know that. something is happening and these people. are experiencing things. And and this. was where I was at where I'm seeing them. reliving trauma, crying, a lot of. crying, a lot of emotional stuff. And we. have to look at that no longer as. investigators. but also as humans as a human being. Basically it became a a a thing where.

it's like if I if I do believe this is. really happening to you because I I. could I guess you have to have a certain. degree of credibility as well in the. story. So yes, there I have to kind of. assess it to go you're not a nut job. because there are some by the way. But. once you've passed that, uh, I I want to. be I want to be a a safe place for you. when I'm talking to you. I don't want. you to think that I'm trying to get. information from you and I'll walk away. with it. You give it to me, good. You.

don't give it to me, even the better. I'm here to help. I'm here to make you. know that you're not alone in this, that. clearly something seems like it happened. to you. I feel bad that you have to. suffer from all this because it's it's a. lot of. What people. what what I learned a lot about this is. they would open up to me and would say. my husband doesn't even know this. happened to me. >> Really? >> Yeah. And I'm like, are you kidding?

Yeah. You I you can't talk to this about. my husband. I know one person, I'm not. going to name her name. Her husband divorced her because she. show she ended up being in a documentary. about what happened. >> Oh my goodness. and he divorced her. That's terrible. So, because it's that's impossible. And. and and I can assure you she was there. There's other witnesses that were there. with her. So, it it if she was making it.

up, they all had to make it up. Everybody was making it up, right? So, it it was a it's a really different. thing. And I was very fortunate to have. worked with with David to get all that. information. David would also provide me. information that was never to be. divulged publicly about. small things that could happen in an. event that would indicate that this is a. true event. the uh things that they do.

for example. >> well I can't get into that because he. would say if you mention these things to. the to the witnesses or to the people. that have gone through the encounters. other people will hear you say that and. they'll say they had that happen to them. >> they will. >> you see what I mean so you have to keep. a certain a few things one of the thing. the only thing I can tell you is there. is. one thing in particular which stuck with.

me. There's one thing they do. to us, not all of them, but in in a. large in a large uh percentage of the. cases that they do to us on our back. >> Did Did that happen to Emily or and the. kids at Ariel? >> No. >> No, not at all. That that was a separate. uh the kids at Ariel. Um, the event is. really a unique event and I consider it. to be possibly one of the most important.

events because they landed and. communicated with so many children and. all those witnesses. even. I can I can say this now some of those. kids that committed suicide after it. happened. >> I can believe that. >> Okay. And all those people lived with. that for many, many years. And I talked. to them now and they're all sticking to. that story. If it didn't happen, because.

a lot of people say they just imagined. it, it's mass hallucination or whatever. >> Mhm. >> They're all in their 30s, in their 40s. They would keep doing this. You You're. You're telling me all these people are. all in on it still today? Would you be. in on it? No, >> like would you still keep a lie that you. you kept with your friends when you were. nine? That that's that's ridiculous. So, there's something that happened. They.

these creatures, whoever they were, they. were creatures. They were real. They I. asked them, a lot of people say, "Do you. think they were AI robots or something?". You know, people are talking about. So, I asked I I keep referring to them as. the kids, but they're not kids anymore. So, it's kind of I'll say kids just. because they were kids when it happened. But I asked the kids, I said, "Do you. think they were robots?" And they, "No, not at all. They they were real living, you know. I But you don't you think it's. possible?" And all of them were like,

"No, no, no, no. These were they were. they were alive. >> because of the communication. They could. feel. >> the way they felt, the way they moved. that they said these were 100% living. creatures." Now, were they just really. really good robots? I doubt it. But if I. can't I can't say I I don't know the I. don't know. I can't confirm that. But. something happened on that day and. something was communicated to these kids. and they all saw it. Do you think it was. intentional land that landing or because.

this some of the stories are it was a. repair or. >> I I don't know and I and I heard of. course I heard that you know and some. people saying the craft was not flat on. the ground it was on an angle like that. Um, look, it's very possible that it was not. intentional. Very, very possible. Um, but we don't know. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's possible. I I'll say that because. even, believe it or not, even they even. the kids go, "Yeah, I don't know.". They'll say, "We don't know what what it.

was. We were just playing." And it's. like, and that happened, you know. So, it was uh there was a there was one of. them. I won't say who she really struck. me very very um cath I don't know if. she's Catholic or Christian whatever it. is but uh she says I don't believe in. aliens I don't believe in flying saucers. but I I can't explain what I saw that. day I mean that says a lot some of the. videos are I'm recalling them now.

they're kind of heartbreaking um before. we go to to a quick break and get to S4. let's just finish off with with with. Emily let's give her a send off. What. would she want people to know? >> Wow. She was an incredibly wonderful. person. Very sensitive. Went through a. lot when she was uh a kid because of it. Put it behind like buried it like with. her brother who buried it. Her brother. was there. Um recently had a really nice.

time to get to know him more. Um, she was she was she would always say to. me. I'll say what she said to me at the very. end, but I'll say something she said to. me a couple of years before she passed. She says, "We're all lying to each. other." She says, "The world is lying to. each other, Luigi." She would say that. to me all the time. Everything is a lie. It's not that we're doing this. purposely, but we're we're constantly.

lying to each other because the whole. goal for all of us is to become. something in this society. So, we're. lying to each other and we're all on the. wrong path. She kept she kept repeating. that to me. We're always lying to each. other. That struck a big chord to me cuz. she she would say it with such like with. tears in her eyes. She says, "I don't. know how to explain it, but we're not. being honest with one another." And it's. like like humans are not saying the.

truth to each other. We're we're always. there's always a guard. We're always. keeping certain things and we're always. saying it in a way where we it's like. we're always in an interview, >> you know what I mean? And we're not. saying everything, but it's true. We we. we do lie to each other. I I guess we're. not lying like, "Hey, I have like three. three yachts." I'm not that's not the. type of lies I think she's talking. about. No, there's a social performance. >> Exactly. >> So, she wants us to what? Just. >> I think she I think she felt that we. were losing um we were losing.

uh. track of ourselves. She said she had a a um a butterfly. So, this is important. When this happened, after it happened, she had multiple. other encounters. She wasn't the only. one, by the way. And those were things. that really affected her. For some reason, there was a. communication with these beings that. communicated something to her about uh.

butterflies. She called it the butterfly. story. And she called it where did all. the butterflies go? And she says it was. something they told her. And she wrote. it down. She goes, "I wrote it as I was. receiving it." And she said it in in. 2015. We were in Arizona and she said it. on on stage. I have a video of it and it. was the most touching thing. Everybody. in the crowd was crying. The whole crowd.

was crying. It was she called it where. did all the butterflies go? And she said. the butterflies represented them. And that they said and that she was. representing us in the conversation with. the butterflies. And she said, "Why are. you leaving? Why are you all going. away?" And they said, "We're going away. because you're you're doing things that. doesn't don't allow us to be there with. you. You're you're not taking care of. your environment. You're not taking care.

of your world essentially, but don't go. away." She kept saying, "Don't go away.". But they said, "We can come back, but. it's up to you to make that happen." So. she would say this, she said this in a. in a beautiful monologue that she did on. stage. It was very nice. And she said it. was a it was it felt like they're trying. to communicate to us to be better, but. not not technologically better, just.

better as people. And when I last saw her, the very last. time. [clears throat]. that I saw her, she stood she she was sitting in front. of me. [clears throat]. She She didn't look like her anymore. She had changed, but her eyes were her. eyes.

And she said, "They came down from the. sky and landed in front of us and talked. to us so that we could tell the world. and nobody cared.". And she died a few days later. I'll. never forget that. I hope you don't. That's an important message. Nobody. cared. >> Yeah. Because. you know I felt I could see it from her.

you know and I say and she and I. question why did this happen to her you. know. because she was such a good person. >> She was important. >> Yeah. Such a good person and I consider. that if I consider that to be one of the. most important events and we should. listen. We should just listen to it. I. mean, forget judging this. You know, everybody goes in with this judgmental.

shouldn't we shouldn't look at it like. that. It's wrong. It happened. Why did it happen? You know, somebody. could say the thing wasn't operating. properly. It landed. They they. communicated. Well, even if it was that, >> still the message is still a message. >> The message is important. >> is important. And let's not also forget. the message that. they had in them to convey to us. That's.

another thing because now the message. been conveyed to these kids. >> and they showed us what happens if we. don't listen. >> Exactly. And then it also shows how judgmental we. are if they open up about it. All right, we'll come back in a minute. Give me a chance to use a tissue and. we'll talk about S4. >> Yeah. Great. >> So, it all started with a model.

>> Yes, it did. It all started with a. potential collector quality diecast. model. >> You were just trying to make a make a. product. >> I just wanted to make a product because. I'm a merchandiser and I thought, let me. make a really good flying saucer for. everybody to have at home. And. I got I I got his attent I got Bob's. attention and uh he was impressed. He he. basically asked me I got I finally got. to talk to Bob Lazar and and you know.

>> how did you get through to Bob? That's. not easy to do. >> No, that was actually I it was really a. shot in the dark. I thought I could do. this without Bob Lazar. I I I spent. months researching the whole story and. all the as much of information I could. find online about the sport model flying. saucer. And there was a lot of. information that was really unclear. I. couldn't understand if wh which part was. real, which part some telephone game. over the years, people changing stuff. So I said, "Let me let me try reaching. out to him and at least see if he's.

willing to guide me in correcting just a. few things and put his stamp of approval. and that would make it so much more. interesting." And uh I reached out to. United Nuclear Scientific, which is this. company. I sent um I didn't send an. email. I called. I just go called him. and Zach answered the phone and I said, "I'm I'm so and so. I'm in a guy from. Montreal. You guys don't know who I am. Here's my website. Here's some of the. stuff I've done. I'm a merchandiser. I. promise I'm not some crackpot. I I know.

what I'm doing. I want to make this cool. quality flying saucer. the only guy I. know who's been in one who can give me. some details about it as opposed to. somebody who's been in one and. frightened, you know, because, you know, so I said, I wonder, you know, I. >> I don't expect this to go any further. than this, but I gave it gave it a shot. So, he says, "Look, I don't know if. Bob's going to talk to you. I'll ask. him." And so, I got a call back two days. later and and Zach goes, "Uh, yeah, he'll talk to you.". >> Wow. How did that feel?

>> I was like, "Okay." Okay. I mean, for me. it was just like I remember I was at the. office. I saw United Nuclear on my. phone. I said, "Oh this call, you. know, answer the phone. [laughter] They. got they transferred to me and and I. >> during those two days are you like he's. >> there's no way." I was like, "There's no. way he's going to talk to me." I'm like, "Who who am I?" You know, plus I'm in. Montreal. I'm far away. Anyway, um he. said, "Yeah, I'll talk he'll talk to. you." He saw some of the stuff you like. he'll talk to you. I said, "Oh, okay.". So, I said, "When do you want to do. that?" He said, "Tomorrow." Give me a. time. my camera. I for me it was 6 p.m.

For him it was 3 p.m. because of the. 3-hour difference. And uh got on the. phone with Bob Lazar. For me it was. surreal. And I'm like Bob first of all. thank you for you know being on the. call. It's a pleasure to talk to you. And he was very nice. And so immediately. he says so what exactly do you want to. do? Explained I want to do a diecast. model. I' I've made a lot of stuff in my. life so I know what I'm doing. And. immediately he says okay well if you. would do it how would you do it? >> What did he mean by that? He says there's he's told he told me.

this at a later time. He says, "You have. no idea how many people have reached out. to me with all these projects and when. when I would ask them how would you do. it?" I could tell they never done that. before. >> Right. You know, >> right. >> Exactly. So he says he said, "How would. you do it?" You know, and I and I said, "Well, how do you want me to explain it. to you?" "Well, what kind of materials. would you use?" So I started I I I gave. him a run. I mean, I spent close 15. years back and forth in China. I learned. how to do stuff. So, I gave him a real.

technical answer. And he was like, "Oh.". And I said, "And as far as the wavegu is. concerned, inside the craft, I knew. something about the wave guide." I said, "I would make that in two different. materials for the model. One of them. would be the metal, the other one would. be a silicone because we could we could. mimic the the the movement that he goes, okay, okay, stop." He goes, "You I could. see you know what you're doing. Come and. see me.". >> Wow. And I bought the plane ticket. I'll. never forget. He emailed me that night. and he says, "These are the dates I'd be. available cuz I'm work. Oh yeah, I have.

other stuff to do." I said, "Great." I. bought a plane ticket, sent it to him. He says, "Perfect." I flew out to. Oregon. And as I'm at I I think I was in. Denver. I was like a stop before getting. to Oregon. He wrote me. He says, "Tonight don't he goes uh come straight. to my house tonight. We're going to have. dinner with my wife and stuff." And I. said, "Oh my god.". >> Wow. >> It's great. Mhm. >> So, first time I met Bob Lazar was at. his house and we had dinner. >> It was Zach brought me there. >> Did you know that you were dining with a.

unicorn, >> I was like I [laughter] couldn't believe. it. I could not believe this is h this. had happened. Uh and I'll I'll tell you. a funny story. Uh I gave him a gift. I. brought him a gift. So back in the in. the late ' 80s when I would go to Italy. all the time in my father's village. there was a lot of uh if you if you dug. into the ground you can actually find. old war World World War II shells like. artillery shells that were still like. they used ones but they were underground. you could find them. So I collected many.

of them over the years and I keep them. in a in a nice display in my house but. those are rare. Those are really rare. They're anti-aircraft American shells. that were used against the Germans. So, I took a shell. I said, "Let me bring. him one of these cuz this is something. from my family, you know, from where I'm. from." And I get to the airport and in. the security they stop it. >> I was going to ask you how that went. >> And it's an empty shell. And I read. about it and you're allowed to do it, but you're not. You're allowed to do it. on paper, but apparently you're not. allowed to do it at the airport. So,

they said, "No, you can't go. You're. going to have to. We're going to have to. throw it out." I said, "No, no, no. you're not throwing that out. So, they. said, "Well, you're going to have to go. and give it to somebody and come back. through security." So, I went back out. I'm going to get in trouble for saying. this, but I bought a uh a cheap backpack. that was at a stand. I put it in there. I took some stuff out of my carry-on, put it in the backpack, and I went and. checked the backpack, and I said, "I. have another check bag." I checked it. It passed. It got to It got to work.

>> Nice. So, I gave [laughter] him I gave. him the the the the shell and anyway, we. started talking and he said, "Do you. really want to do this? You really think. people are going to want to buy a flying. saucer?" I said, "If it's done right, absolutely." And he says, "Wow, you. didn't even hesitate." I said, "No, I'm. not hesitating." Are you kidding? Nobody's ever done that. >> Where were you going to sell these? Like. direct to consumer? >> I think it was going to go direct to. consumer. I It It's It's still going to. happen, by the It hasn't happened yet,

but we're not talking about like some. plastic model here. We're talking about. like some. >> really high quality stuff where if you. think about it, there's a lot of there's. a lot of diecast collectors out there or. a lot of people collect models. There is. not one good quality. commercialgrade. not not artistic artists could do one of. one, you know. I'm talking commercial. industrialmade flying saucer. It it. doesn't exist. No, it would look so sexy.

in here. >> Right. So, I'm like, I want a real. flying saucer that somebody's going to. want to put in their house. And that. that's a cool piece, right? So, that's. what I want to do. And so, that was the. whole beginning of the project. And and. so, it's going to happen. It's just not. that's the way it worked out didn't. happen that way. But, uh that was the. beginning of the the whole uh the whole. way I approached Bob Lazar. He was he's. been absolutely incredible in in the.

initial stages. I sat with him, spent. two days with him. I we went over. everything and he was extremely generous. with his time. He corrected all there. was so many corrections. I would say. this is what's on this website and he. said that's that's not that's not it. He. goes it's like this. And I had brought. with me uh there was a model made in. 1994 by the Tesers Corporation. It's a. plastic model made in the USA. It's. available on eBay right now for about. two-300 bucks. It's a really cheap.

model, but it's slightly accurate. >> Okay, >> it there's it's pretty accurate. There's. a lot of things that are not, but it's. accurate. So, I had brought one with me. and he goes, "Oh, yeah. I remember this, you know, John Andrews." And came and. see me, but. immediately he saw some things in the. model. He goes, "Actually, that's not. accurate, and that's not accurate, and. the seat shape is not accurate." And I. said, "Well, that that's the whole. point. Let's make it accurate, >> right? Let's get it right. >> Let's get it right." And so that turned.

out to be uh the biggest project I've. ever done in my life. [laughter]. >> So, what were you doing? Just iterating. with Bob with what? 3D designs. >> We went Yeah. So, I came back to. Montreal. I had I had a lot of. information that I had taken down. I. went back Montreal. I sat down with my. team and I said, "All right, let's start. doing this." And we have a we built we. made a 200page book. out of this of all the info because we. were going to build it. So I I needed to. have like a everything I said it it has.

to be perfect. So. >> what's in the book? >> Oh, I could show it to you. >> Show it. You should that should be. another product. >> Yeah. Yeah, I could. Oh, absolutely. It. will be to have that. It will be. >> just notes and sketches and. >> a million things and it and it addresses. the parts, the components, the how it. how they looked inside and how we would. have to build it if we had to create. because by the way because he had been. inside. I had my my reasoning at the. very beginning was if I have a a 13 to.

14 inch diameter craft and you want to. see the inside, well, you're gonna have. to take it apart, right? Well, that was. part of how do I have consumers take it. apart? How is it per, you know, how is. it going to come together easily and. not, you know, so there was a lot that. went into that to create something that. was beautiful as a product and what kind. of materials we would use and and and so. on and that [clears throat]. was happening in a 3D software. So I.

started building the craft obviously and. in the in the software we started. building it in real size. We weren't. building it in a 13 in or 14 in. diameter. It was 52 and and 52.9 ft in. diameter. Sure. It was real size. And. that was the beginning. of a complete. shift in my life where the the the the.

way I was seeing it on screen. We. started off uh in Blender with just the. craft. >> Blender and open source 3D program. >> Absolutely. And then we said, why don't. we why don't we make the box look like. the interior of the hanger? you know, if. there's going to be this flying saucer. and we're going to put it in a collector. box, make it look like the hanger. >> This is a great product idea, >> right? So, I'm like, let's make that. happen. And so, we had to build a. hanger. And that was start and then.

another part of my team started doing. that in Unreal Engine 4 at the time. >> Oo, 4.7. >> Yeah, exactly. And so, that the the the. Blender file was the craft. The Unreal. Engine file was the hanger. And then we. started expanding on the hanger. Bob was. like, "Okay, well, I'll tell you how. that is so it looks real." And we. started asking a billion questions. And. as we got further and further into this, we would constantly. all of us at at at the at the at the. team in my team, we have question.

questions for Bob. >> Oh, you know, so we had a booklet and we. would write, "Oh, it's a question for. Bob. Go write it." So we handw write, "You got to ask him blah blah blah blah. blah. We need to know this." So I had. 178 questions for Bob. [laughter]. So, I'm like, I don't know if I'm going. to do this on Zoom. I called him. I. said, Bob, why don't I just come out. there? We knocked this out of the park. in a day. It worst case two days. You. can answer everything. And in person, it's always better in person because you. can have something in your hands and go. like, you know, >> what were the questions like on that.

list? >> Well, I I could send it to you. I. >> No, I mean, for people listening, just. example. >> Oh, for instance. Okay. So, inside the. craft, there's a archway superructure. It's a. there's in inside looks like archways, right? Well, the thickness of the. archway. >> Oh, that that's pretty specific. >> Yeah. So, how thick do you think the. archway is? And and I remember the. reason why I bring it up is I said that. archway super structure, you know, how. thick do you think it was? I remember. him saying it's about 2 in. And what's.

really important, he said it was hollow. He had not mentioned that. >> No, it was hollow. >> It was hollow. And I found that to be. extremely important. >> Yeah. because I thought, "Oh, I wrote. that down." I go, "It was hollow." He. goes, "Oh, yeah, it was hollow. I I. touched it on the exit because when when. he was when he w when he crawled into. the craft, the archways all around." So, you have them right next to you or the. the let's say the the the surface of.

them. So, I mean, like I would have. done. I would have, you know, of course. we're going to do that. You're sending. me inside a flying saucer. I am. [laughter]. I might lick the thing, you know, so I because I want to understand what. am I what am I touching here? So So. basically he said they were hollow. I. found that to be very interesting. Um. another one was uh where was the flag? Was it the the reverse flag? Was it on. the right or on the left? Cuz he we had. determined there was a a sticker on the. craft that was a flag. >> an American flag on the craft.

>> On the craft. And I I don't remember him. saying right or left. I had to ask right. or left. Where are we putting it? Right. So it was on the left. Okay, there was a. there was a million there's a whole. bunch of questions like that and you. would you'd be surprised. I mean you. could go through all the details and. still have you know a million question. which by the way those were only the. first 178 questions that there's a lot. more that followed that. >> There's a lot of OCD in your. personality. You're a bit of a maniac. >> Yeah. I love it. >> Absolutely. And that's actually what Bob.

said. I [laughter] Bob literally I was. putting everything away and he goes, "You know, I have never met anybody so. detailed like you are." And I looked at. him and I said, "Well, I hope that's a. compliment because I'm trying to make. sure I'm trying to make sure I don't. miss anything here." He goes, "No, no, no." He goes, "It's it's very good." He. goes, "I'm just impressed with how. detailed you are." And I said, "I'm. going to build if if this is true, but I. I I said this is true. I'm about to.

build an ET object. I got to make sure I. do it right. Otherwise, >> what am I doing? >> So, got to do it right. And so, that was. my that the way I look at things. And. so, that got us into, you know, really. perfecting it, mold, molding the seats. into it or what we thought were the. seats, the amplifiers, even the cutout. amplifier. He said it had been uh cut. with a plasma cutter. I couldn't. remember the details. I had to ask him.

And he says it looked jagged. It looked. like a they they didn't do that. They. didn't do a clean job, which also I find. amazing cuz I'm like, >> who the hell does that, you know? But. but that's how it was. >> Um and the interior of the emitters. In. fact, the emitters were something that I. was very upset with myself for not. having understood. He kept explaining. them to me and I completely messed up. the way I wrote down all my notes. So I. built something completely wrong. And.

when he saw them, he goes, "What are. those?" I said, "The emitters." He goes, "That's completely wrong." I I said, "Really?" And he goes, "Yeah, what the. hell?" So we had to rebuild the emitters. cuz that that was not I I that was my. fault. >> Those are the the big tube the three. tubes. Yeah. The big Yeah. The. >> the What did you build instead? >> They're they're hollow on the inside. Yes. >> I didn't think they were hollow. I. thought they were full. >> Okay. >> Okay. I thought they were like a solid. copper with these plates on them. And.

he's like, "What is that?" I said, he. goes, "No." He goes, "They're just. plates on the on the perimeter, like on. the on on the surface, but but it's. hollow inside." And that there's you. don't see it in the film, but. >> imagine a four uh two two foot diameter. 4 foot can trash can. There's a pipe. It's the one of the waveguides that goes. into it because it allows it to swivel. and all that. But what I found really. interesting is and he had even mentioned.

it in the past and I and I I remember he. said that wave guide goes into the. emitter and protrudes about I don't know. about a foot into the emitter. And I. remember thinking why why would it do. that? And it makes perfect sense. Why? Because when the I don't have anything. that's cylindrical here, but if imagine. a cylinder. >> Mhm. >> is is suspended by a pipe. >> Yep. >> On the on the ceiling of the bottom. level, and the cylinder can swivel at a.

90°. >> Yep. >> The the top of the craft, the top of the. ceiling, and this is here, and there's. like a pipe holding it. As soon as it. swivels, the pipe's lock not long enough. for it to swivel at 90°. It's going to. hit the top, >> right? >> It needs to extend down and swivel. >> Ah, >> and that. piece inside is designed for it to do. that. >> That's an important detail. >> It's an important detail, but he never.

said it did that. He said that's what I. saw. >> Right. You had to work that out. >> We had to make that. And that made sense. to us. And we went, "Oh my god, look at. that. It makes sense because you need. that extra to do that movement. Did he pre-plan? You know, some people. like he's still he's still a fraud. Did. he pre-plan that? Is that like some is. that an Easter egg he put in there for. us to figure out? Like I I it never felt. like that in any times I spoke to him.

This was really something that caught my. attention, too. I was like, "Yeah, that. that that that's not that's not him. making that up. He saw that and that's. how I built it." I think that even. supports his story more because you're. doing the structural engineering to. connect those dots. >> Exactly. >> And then he sees that and goes, "Yeah, that's how it works.". >> Yeah. Because it would it would do that. It makes perfect sense. >> You know, so I was like, "Okay, well. that that's another that's something. that I thought was really interesting.". Anyway, and so built got to a point.

where the craft was built and now the. entrance to the craft, the hatch, you. see it in the film, right? >> You see there's a a it lips to the. bottom. It's like an Right. Okay. That. was a feat. >> Why? >> Because we didn't understand it a like. we weren't getting it per perfectly for. a while in the geometry of the craft. And it took it took a few tries until he. said, "That's it. You got it.". >> So, this is a three level craft. >> There's a bottom level. >> and that's the emitter, >> the main level. Yeah.

>> Three emitters underneath. >> Correct. >> Then there's three chairs. >> And then there's an upper level that he. never saw. >> That he never saw. Did he could he. speculate? What do you think was up. there? >> He well he speculates and it's in the. film that he says that's the part where. you see these black what look like he. says they look like port holes, right? >> But they're not. >> But they're not. >> They're clearly not. >> something for navigation. >> He says they they were uh vantablack. He. called them vantablack. I don't know if. you're familiar with vantablack.

Vantablack is the blackest of blacks. >> Oh yes. I've heard of that. >> Okay. >> It's so black it's actually weird to. look at. >> Exactly. He says they they were they. look like vanta black. They didn't look. like they were a surface. They look like. they were an infinity hole. >> Okay. So, we had to make that in in. Blender. You can because you just remove. all specular, you know, you remove all. and you could do that, >> but it looks fake. If you do that in. Blender, it looks fake. Which is one of. the things that I'm kind of not happy. with with my craft in Blender is, yeah,

it's not reflecting anything, but I'm. not appreciating it as much as I I'm. crazy when it comes to detail. I'm like, I don't think the real thing looks like. that, but that's as far as we could do. it. And he said he he thinks it's. perfect, and I'm like, it could be. better. But anyway, so um and in regards. to that, he says they believed that it. had something to do with the navigation. or some type of sensor that lets the the.

craft or whoever in the craft know where. it is. So it's it's basically reading. and there's six of them and it's reading. where it's at. That's what he thought it. it it was. They they they talked about. it with Barry, his his lab partner, but. he says, "I I don't know. I I never. accessed it. I don't know what was up. there." So, he's very very cautious to. not speculate too much. >> That's what I love about Bob and his. story. And I'm asked all the time who I. think the most credible whistleblower.

is. And it's always Bob Lazar because. he's not afraid to say, "I don't know. I. didn't work." Absolutely. I didn't I. don't know. >> And he and a lot of times he would say, "I don't know." I mean, there's there's. so many questions we had and he goes, "I. don't know." Even even the the metal, he's like, you know, that's material. science. I don't absolutely it felt or. looked like this, but I don't know. >> He we had a lot of we we spoke about the. metal a lot and uh it it had a lot of. properties that were clearly giving us. the impression that it's metal. >> Mhm. >> But he said again, Luigi, he says it.

could have been ceramic. He goes, I. don't know, but it felt metallic to me. Now, the part where the archway. superructure is uh hollow. >> Yeah. That's a tough one to do in. ceramic because ceramic is a very strong. material. You don't feel hollow on. ceramic. >> That's right. >> So that to me gives me more, you know, credibil belief that it's metal or a. metal type of material, but it it's also. intelligent in my opinion. The craft,

>> the material, >> the material is intelligent. >> because we didn't we're going to be. doing so in our film, we had to. abbreviate things quite a bit to make it. digestible for the audience. There's a. lot of information that never made it in. the film. And we are going to be. releasing probably an hour and 20 or an. hour 30 minute documentary mini dock of. ours only on the craft.

>> that's going to be successful as well. cuz we there are a lot of us that want. to know about was it was it layered was. it were there wave guides? >> We we have a lot of data that didn't. make it in the film on the sport model. and I'm my one of my uh things I want to. do is make that dock. It's it's going to. be a going to call it a mini dog if you. if you will, but it's just about the. craft. Yes. And it allows us also. creatively. to show it however we want and not from. the perspective of the story of Bob.

Lazar. So if I have to talk to you about. the material of the craft, I'm now. creative. I have liberty to show it to. you however I want outside, indoors, outdoors. So that's gives me the. opportunity to really explain what it is. that we worked on for for for that long. But in the center of the floor, first of. all, the reactor sits in the middle of. the of the floor of of the craft. There's an indentation. It fits. perfectly there. There's this waveguide.

pipe that is 3 in in diameter. It's not. very it's not very thick. And it it. tapers, you know, kind of opens up like. that because it applies perfectly on top. of the reactor. It's so low tech. looking. >> It it it really is. >> But it it like it looks like a trumpet. >> Like Exactly. Exactly. It looks like a. trumpet and you pull pull it down. Now, what's really interesting and this is. part of the stuff that we talked about. with Bob is. >> when they because it goes up and down. >> Okay. You can remove it off the reactor. and you can apply it on the reactor and.

the reactor is the power source. So this. thing is basically channeling whatever. the power source throughout the uh the. craft which I believe the craft being a. gigantic cavity hollow super structure. and it it propagates this power gravity. field or whatever other field it is. within the the craft and creates this. bubble if you want to call it. >> tracks with a lot of lot of witnesses. >> In fact Bob is is in in agreement with.

me. I was talking to him the other day. while we were driving the car. I said, "I am convinced at 100%.". That the archway superructure was also. down in the lower level. It's not. something he saw, but he says, "I don't. remember it because it was so dark, right? >> I didn't see it." He goes, "I wasn't. paying attention to it because I was. trying to figure out what those emitters. were." He says, "But I must agree. It. makes no sense that the craft. superructure is only on one side and not.

connected like this to the other side on. the bottom. It that's my personal. opinion. I built the thing. So it always. feels to me like it it had to have had. it on the bottom. >> You're probably right. >> It's just logical sense to me. So but he. says I agree. I just don't remember. seeing it. >> And his job was to what? Try to. replicate the propulsion technology of. those emitters. replicate it with earth. materials and second direct the first. directive [clears throat] was to excuse. me to replicate the uh propulsion system.

with earth materials and the second. directive was to disable it how to. disable it from a distance. >> right that's important too. >> that's important okay so they had to. that was those are primary directives. and essentially you know when when you. think about this this so this material. as they pulls up the the wave guide. It's not telescopic like a normal. antenna that we we do. We go like this. and and it goes and it you know the the. the base part is thicker and the you.

know it gets inside it goes inside. It's. not like that at all. He goes you pull. it up. >> and it doesn't make any sound. It's not. like you hear sh is it's completely. silent. You pull it up and it just. becomes shorter. It it blends into the. ceiling. It doesn't go through the roof. or anything. >> No, no, no. There's no hole where you. see it go in. It's just blended into the. ceiling of the main floor. So, you know, this the bottom is tapered so it goes on. top of the reactor. The the upper I I.

remember asking him, I go, "Do I have a. do I leave a hole?" He goes, "No, no, no. It was blended. It was it was all. one piece. >> No seam or anything? >> No seam." So, he goes, "We would pull it. up and we didn't know where it was. going.". >> That can't work. That's exactly that's. exactly why that's an important feature. >> Yeah. >> Because now and I want I wanted to put. it in the film, but I thought if I do. that, >> I'm going to need a very long segment. here to explain this. Yes. And it's a. kind of a for for the layman for people.

watching this for to digest. That's a. lot of technical stuff that I would have. to get into. I'll cover that in in the. sport model version of the doc because I. want to cover it. But clearly, what is. that, >> right? >> What's happening there? He says, "Even. when you pull it down, where's the. material coming from? Because it is. getting longer, but I can't tell where. it's coming from." So he says, and and I. asked him, "If you were to bring it down. and not apply it on the reactor and. push, you know, torque," he said, "Oh,

it wouldn't move. >> It wouldn't move. >> It wouldn't move." Now, think about. that. You know, if we have something. that is only three inches in diameter. and hollow. >> hollow. >> and I pull that down, I don't know, four. feet. and I and I can't get it to move, that's. something really strong. >> Even if it's titanium, you're going to. get a little bit of. >> you're going to get something. >> then move. I found that really. interesting. >> Yes. >> You know what I mean? So, those are. little technical aspects of things that. I found to be very interest. I had to.

build them. Obviously, you're not I had. to build them. You're not feeling the. the the physics of that, but it's. something that I I took into. consideration as I was building this. thing. The only thing I I I don't I. don't have is the upper level. I mean, I. the outside I have, but I don't have the. interior, so I don't know. >> I don't know how that works. >> Yeah. >> So, you're at Bob's um going through all. your 187 questions and then what happens. from there? Oh, you're you're designing.

the box, the hanger. So, we got So, we. finally get the box, the hanger. I. actually just for fun, what I had, this. was a it was just an idea I had on a. weekend. I said, "Okay, here's the box.". I go, "People are going to want to have. more." I go, "What I cannot what I could. include in the box is a a cardboard. foldout. That is the the hallway of the. base. I could I could just do that for. people who are a little bit more. fanatical. I could do this." So, let me. make the hallway. So, that that. >> talk about scope creep. Oh my goodness.

Right. >> Wow. So. >> I essentially said, "All right, Bob, >> how about we build the whole thing?". >> The whole S4, >> the whole S4 because that one day I just. said, "Okay, that's it. Let why don't we. do in in uh it was going to start in. Unreal Engine.". >> And he says, "Are you sure you want to. do that?" He goes, "What are you going. to do with it?" I said, "I don't know. yet. I don't know yet, but I know I want. to do it." And he goes, "That's going to. cost." I know. I know. I said, "I know. I I I knew, but I.

I had to do it because I'm like, you. know, historically or let's say in this. timeline of our lives, Bob Lazar is. getting older. >> Yep. >> And he's already in process of helping. us design the interior of the hanger and. like. if I don't do this now, when is this. even going to happen? >> It would never happen. >> It would never have happened. No. So I. said, >> and Bob said, "Well, sure you want to do. I said, "Yeah, if I invest cuz my. money," I said, "I'll do it if you but.

but on one condition, >> you you stamp give it a stamp of. approval. You have to help." He says, "Oh, I'll do it." He goes, "You guys are. doing a great job. I'll do it." And I. said, "Great. >> I we're we're doing it." So, I called. everybody, had a meeting. I said, "Okay, guys. We're building the whole thing.". And so, it was like they were like, "What?" You know, and I said, "Yeah, yeah." So, went back to see Bob, got a. lot more information. I went my my my. co-director Christopher Matau got so. much information.

>> He's really talented. >> He's very talented. He's he's he's not. just talented. I think he's like a. Michael Jordan of this. This guy is very. good. >> Did he help you with the shot selection, photography? >> Oh, yeah. I mean, he and I were. >> Your film is gorgeous. >> Thank you. I appreciate that. And that's. and a lot of that is also due to Chris. Matau. I mean, Christopher Matau is. without a doubt. He and I were almost. attached to the hip for about a year in. front of a computer. We both gained. weight at the same time, just staring at. screens cuz that's exactly what it was.

And, you know, running to computers, building computers to render and all. that stuff. I mean, that was insane. Sleeping at the studio, making sure it. wouldn't crash if they crashed, you. know, getting it back to, you know, where did it crash, what frame, what. what messed up, why did it do that? You. know, >> I feel this pain. >> Yeah, you understand. I do. So anyway, long story is we we started we we got to. the Unreal part, but then we immediately. dropped Unreal Engine because. >> Unreal for folks is a 3D game engine. >> Game engine. Absolutely. It look, it's.

great for video games. >> It's not made for what we were doing. No, >> it's just not made for what we were No, it it just it cannot do what it's being. >> advertised to do. >> Certainly not at 4.7. I would. >> No, even at five. Even at five and with. Nanite couldn't. >> even at five. Oh, even Oh, even with. Nanite was giving us so many errors. Yeah. >> Okay. I know. >> So many errors that we were going. bananas going, "Okay, this is just a.

waste of I I spent a lot of I lost a lot. of money because of Unreal Engine.". Look, they're great. They do great video. games. Good for them, but Blender was. definitely the way to go. And when we. transferred everything over to Blender, things first of all started looking. better much faster. Quality went through the roof and and. Blender was evolving. >> Yes, it always is. >> Yeah. And so. >> there's a lot of stuff we did our our.

our version of Blender at our studio is. it's like when you meet a guy who has. like a Toyota Supra, but he has a one. version. He has one of one. He modified. it his way. Our blender is fully. modified to do what we want it to do. >> It must be as as a 3D artist myself, there were some shots where I went, "How. did he build a set for Oh, he this is. VFX. This looks very real.". >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And. the. >> for you that So, because you understand.

this, >> it's not just what it looks like, it's. what you can render. >> That's right. >> Right. >> Yeah. because you can make anything look. beautiful but now render it. >> right make that happen. >> all the different lights you needed. >> okay yeah there's a lot of computing. power and so there's a lot of under the. hood technical stuff that has to happen. in order for the render first of all to. happen and not crash and secondly in a.

timely manner where you can actually get. your render out because you have a 100. other renders to you know and you you. have x amount of computers do you need. this to happen you can't just go like oh. yeah it'll take four days well hold on. for how many seconds you know what I. mean so. >> it it the the technical aspect of what. was accomplished internally for us to. make it happen that will forever be what.

I'll I'll never forget that ever I mean. I we were we were not sleeping to make. that happen. >> I believe it's while we're talking. technical, there was something that came. up about which. light that wouldn't bounce. So you spent. a year trying to replicate the way light. behaved on the craft. >> inside the craft. >> Right. But when you are designing the. asset, you you create the material. >> Absolutely. Specularity, normal map, >> everything. Absolutely.

>> So did you I mean why was the light not. working if you can control? >> Oh, it was work. It was working. Oh, it. it's the light is working. It's. >> it's not uh it wasn't a defect. Nothing. was defective. >> It was the way the interior of the craft. is made. So now you you're in the main. floor and always remember it's very low. gets, you know, it's a disc, right? So. it's got this. >> you can only stand kind of in the in a. small section in the middle and then.

after that you got to start crouching. down and and walking or crawling, whatever. if if you're in the actual. space, which we went with VR eventually, but which is very cool and I can't wait. for the world to see that. But the way. the material is made, we used this. unp to to make it b, you know, fast to. explain unpolished stainless steel. There's a little bit of grit to it, a. little bit of dust to it because it. gives it, you know, that that real look. and all that.

You put any light in there because, you. know, you could put any lights. Blender. You billion versions of lights. Okay. Yeah, we could put any lights. It's. beautiful. It's great. All right. Okay. It's lit. Okay. But that's not how it. was, you know, because it's it's you're. inside the craft. That's not how they. were lighting it. You could light it. You could put fake lights in there and. you light the thing. I can make it super. beautifully lit. But that's not how he. saw it. >> And Bob's saying that because there were. a couple of industrial lights in there. The only thing they had in there was a.

big industrial tripod lights, two of. them. >> One behind the amplifier that's behind. the middle seat and one on the left of. the amplifier to the left of the of the. middle seat. Both of them are there. They're they're. their their rod is low because they're. the it's not a high ceiling, right? So. they're lower. They're not like pushed. up. You know, you could there's a. telescoping thing and there the the. light heads are pointed up and there's.

four H hallogen lights. >> and you can replicate that right down to. the bulb%. >> but the light wasn't matching. >> So you you get that down to the bulb to. the luminosity to all all that stuff, right? >> Mhm. >> Turn them on and and it gives you you. you match them. You go online, you look. at these H hallogen lights, you match. the the setting in Blender, you could do. that. >> Sure. >> So you put them on, turn them on, they're on. They're 100% both of them. are on. So you have eight lights. >> Yep. >> Right. >> Can't see anything. >> It's like you could see it reflecting.

brightly where it's at, >> right? >> But it's not transmitting light. It It's. not lighting the room. >> And I'm like, it's And you have to. consider 52 and 1/2 ft. It's kind of big. anyway, but you would think. >> it should be throwing light everywhere. >> It doesn't. >> And Bob says, "No, it was dark. Darker. than this.". >> He kept saying it was very dark in. there. And I and and and I kept saying, "Okay, but what what could you see?". Well, he always repeated, "It's very. dark in there. It is hard to see." And. I'm like, "But there's two.

industrial lights. Like, how is this not. bright?" So, when they're on, I I'll. never forget we had our camera in there. We We used Blackmagic 6K cameras to film. most of the time. So, we brought the. camera in, put the settings on, how we. would put our settings, and I would tell. Chris, "Are are we in the camera?" Yeah, turn on lights. They're on. I can't see. And he's like, I know. I I I the. lights are on. I'm like, okay, well,

there's no way. So, the amount of times. that we were like, there's got to be a. toggle that we didn't like, we're. missing something. Something's not. happening here. So, we would turn off those lights, bring in other lights. Okay, we could. see everything. Okay, well, that's. weird. We would what we did and this. actually we did this for a while. I. never explained this. I can explain it. because you can appreciate it. We took. out the H hallogen. >> and we put out other lights in there. like a you could put box lights. So we. took four little box lights, placed them.

there, pointed them up, blasted them. >> Even those weren't powerful enough. And. I'm like, what the hell is up with this. thing? But if you take the lights, go in. a different angle and blast them, well, it'll light the scene. So, there are. shots in our film where we did obviously. create cinematic lighting shot. You. don't you don't know it. We know it, but. it wasn't the natural light. But you. cannot see properly in that craft if you.

only have the eight hogen lights pointed. up which which is exactly what Bob Lazar. said. It was very dark in there. And if. we think of that and we're going to. think of here's a man who's going to try. to let's say that let's say let's assume. he's lying. Okay, he's making it up. Okay, he's. making this up. Fine. He's telling us. that there are two industrial tripods.

with four bright H hallogen lights in. there. Why would his brain as a liar. think that's not enough? Think about. that logically. >> It's too it's a weird detail. >> It's it's it's too strange that he knew. that it would be dark in there because. you have to build the thing to know, >> right? >> That's it. You have to just have it. Is. that material just drinking in the. light? >> It really absorb. I will gladly send you.

the the craft. >> Okay. If you want it, of course. Just. don't share it, but I'll send you the. file. >> Play play around with it. >> I'll do it yourself. >> Cuz when you said that, I'm like, "No, man. That's not how materials work.". >> Yeah. But play around with it yourself. >> I I believe it. >> Go in there, turn them on, and you'll be. like, "Oh, It's it's it's dark in. there." And you're going to go like, "It's bring a camera in there. try to. film something. >> We're gonna [laughter] do it. >> You know what I mean? So, >> so, so now in the story, you're starting.

to build all of S4. Is it still a. product at this point? >> Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So, we're at a. certain point, we were like, it would be. so cool if Bob narrated this or Bob. narrated that. If what if Bob narrated, you know, and narrate a product? >> Well, that's again, I didn't know where. this was going. I I kind of I literally. thought I'm I am spending a fortune here. building this thing. I don't really know. what I'm going to do with it. >> What about your team? Are they like. >> They were just excited. They were just.

excited that I was giving them a green. light. Let's do it. >> They were just like this is cool. Like. cuz I was just giving them full go with. the best we could do. And they're like. okay, right? And eventually Bob Lazar. started seeing some stuff. I didn't. He. would always wanted to see final scenes. I never showed him anything that was. really, but I would give him snippets. and he was like, "Oh my god.". >> Why did you withhold that? That's an. important detail. >> because I wanted it to be finished.

in some cases. I wanted it I wanted. certain things to be complete for him to. see them. There was a lot of times that. they weren't complete. Like for. instance, the ceiling of the of the of. the hallway was not complete and it. would it would not look good. I'm kind. of like I was I was like I would show. him things that were I needed him to. correct me on. But I knew that the. ceiling was not complete properly and. I'm like I don't want to show him with. this crappy ceiling. I got to finish. that. Had to put pipes in there. So.

there was certain things that I he was. like show me. I'm like not yet. I want. to show it to you when it's done. when. things were getting let's say 85% done. that's when I started showing him. >> Did you go back to your uh David Jacobs. training at all and think I I were you. worried about implanting details? >> Absolutely. I. >> because this is a great way to do it. >> Absolutely. I What was what was really. important though is that he corrected. himself in a couple of things when we.

brought him in initially in the hanger. and in the lab. The only places where he. said, "Oh yeah, there was that was in. the hanger in the lab." He was there a. lot. In in the lab, he had forgotten to. mention that there was a door that led. right into the excuse me, that read that. led right into the hanger. >> Ah, okay. It it was never mentioned. So, I put a I put a cabinet there. And he. goes, "There was no cabinet there." And. I said, "Well, okay. I'll just move the. cabinet." He goes, "No, there was a door. there." And I said, "What do you mean.

there was a door there?" He goes, "Isn't. that going right into the hanger?" And I. said, "Yeah." He goes, "Yeah, there was. a door there.". >> That's really interesting because when. you're setting up the 3D environment, it. starts to fall into place. >> Exactly. Exactly. So, even the desks at. a certain point yet he and Barry have. two desks pointed at each other. I put. them in the wrong place. First thing he. did is the desks are No, the desks are. over there. But he immediately pointed. the desks were not there. They were over. there. Like he pointed at right away and. I'm like, "Oh, oh, okay. That and it.

made more sense." Sure. Oh, okay. He. goes, "Yeah." And the electrical panel. was on the left there. Oh, okay. You. know, and he immediately went like boom, I put at a certain point I had a sink in. there. He looked at it. He goes, "Okay, you could leave that one." I said, "Why?" He goes, "It wasn't exactly like. that, but it's fine." You know, like. kind of, >> right? >> And I'm like, "But what did it look. like?" You know, he's like, "No, I some. stuff he didn't even want to tell me. because he knew I'm insane. So, he's. like, "You're going to waste another. three weeks on just a sink. it's not. important, you know what I mean? So, I'm.

like, "Okay." So, we basically got him. to to to correct us on that door. And in. the hanger, the the large adjacent doors. that separate the hangers have. normalsized doors in them cuz when the. the big adjacent doors are closed, you. can go in the adjacent hanger just. through a normal door in the big door. And there was a a time I mentioned this. recently. Bob Lazar was on stage with.

George Knap in Arizona and Bob had drawn. on a whiteboard these little doors and. people were saying he's full of. There's no way he could have seen the. other hangers without those doors. And I. remember going like they're kind of. right. There's no way to have seen all. the way down just through these little. doors. >> True. >> It they they were right. That was a good. point. I didn't I didn't I didn't have. an answer for it. So, I'm like, I wonder. what that's all about. Anyway, as soon. as he saw the door, he goes, "No, there's little doors in those doors." We.

built the door. He goes, "But there's a. door there.". >> Oh, there they there's a door in the. door. And and we we validated it. We. actually also, by the way, had. consultants that helped us that actually. worked at Area 51 in hangers, >> by the way. Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. So there were people that. consulted with us and said, "Oh, you got. it. That that's how it was." They even. showed us how the X beams were in the. hangers and they said, "That's exactly.

it.". >> Were these special projects guys or. >> only one one was a but not not not that. UFO not UFO stuff, but uh aerospace. engineers that worked out there. >> cuz they did make planes there, too. >> Absolutely. Yeah. They they confirmed. Yeah, that's what's they they helped us. with the the floor grill where the water. goes in. They they we have a lot of. experts that because Bob Oh, by the way, when it came to Bob, where was the grill. on the ground? He goes, I don't I don't. know. [laughter] He goes, I I wasn't. looking for that,

>> right? >> I mean, that makes sense, too. Like, so. I needed a consultant to help me, you. know, cuz I asked him, I said, "Do you. think the beams were like that?" He. goes, "Probably." He goes, "I wasn't. paying attention to the beams.". >> Absolutely. >> Now, S4 is built inside of a hill. Are. you are you building the landscape as. well? >> We built the whole landscape. Absolutely. We have We have a project. >> Oh my god. It's huge. It is a huge. project. >> Is this a film yet or you're still just. building stuff?

>> Oh no. We We were a film. We were half a film. Not even a half a. film. a quarter of a film uh when we. completed. the Papoose Lake uh geometry, but we. hadn't done the Papoose Mountain Range. So, >> but you decided we're going to make a. movie. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had decided at that. point. Well, that's when I spoke to Bob. Lazar and I said, "Bob, how about we turn this into a. documentary about what happened to you.

at S4?". >> What would make you think of that? because when we would bring the cameras. inside the scene, it was just too perfect. >> It looked too good. >> And I thought, my god, I I think I could. bring people back here. You know, it it. started to really dawn on me like, this. is really good. And I'm like, but it. wouldn't be of any use to people if I. explain it. That's I kept saying, you. know, who who's going to want to listen. to me? Oh, you know, I made it like this. and nobody cares about me. I said, "If.

Bob explains this story, I think that's. going to it's going to go a long way.". In fact, >> in fact, I said, "This is no longer, in. my opinion, created for entertainment. This is. almost created as a historical. document." Because if I have the guy who. saw it and he's correcting me and we. have a visual historical document, that's actually interesting because it's. a place we can't go to. What happens if one day Bob Lazar gets.

debunked? What what does that mean for. your historical document? >> I find that to be we many times we said. that to each other, you know, what if. all this turns out not to be true? you. know, and we're looking at each other. and we go, >> it'll be one hell of a sci-fi thing, though. You know, because we we we. basically laugh and and say, I don't. think it's it's going to get debunked. But if if ever it does, which I doubt, it's still a cool project that was built. from somebody's memory or story and made. sense.

>> 100%. >> Right. Um I don't think it is. I really. don't. But and I Bob says it all the. time. He goes, "You know what?" He goes, "Whether people believe my story or not, your film is so beautiful." He says that. to me. He says, "It's so beautiful to. watch that it's it's it's a it's a fun. thing to look at.". >> It really is. So, I said, "At least I've. accomplished that part of the the the. task. I clearly don't want it to just be. that. I wanted to, you know, people to.

get a. I I wanted part of my my my hope was if. there are so many people out there who. really don't believe this story and have. a lot of arguments, which I understand. I I I read all of them. I read all of. them. In fact, after my film came out, boy, did I read a lot of them. >> Oh, I bet. >> Okay. But I will say a lot of them, forget the. accusations of Bob Lazar having married.

a woman that before he even went to Los. Alamos, they're talking about stuff that. happened to him a decade before he even. worked at Los Alamos. Like, okay, whatever. You should look into my life. I was a real nut job when I was younger. So, it's like, okay. So, but. >> if we're going to look at this story, we need to have it. it it's like a. historical piece of what happened to. him. Okay, this is a this is a an. opportunity to look at the data and say.

instead of attacking points that are. wrong that your starting point is wrong, you're actually start your starting. point is wrong. Start this is at least. accurate. You don't believe it, fine, but start from here. Start here. >> Totally agree. A big shout out to. Veronica, who's my sister, who has been. a a godsend because she handled. everything while we were making this. film. So, she was she's like the.

invisible force behind us that's. handling everything, making sure. everybody's paid and things are. happening okay. And when I when Jean. sent us the map and we found all that, she just quietly said, "No, this is. there's got to be more to this. there's. there's no way they hit a a road and. that there's no other evidence to it. So, she found that map and that is in in. my opinion, the 1941 map is undeniably.

evidence that there's something there. >> Yes, >> it's it's from the government. It's not. from a picture. It's from the. government. So, >> it's there. >> It's there. Um, she also found the. EdTeller video as well. >> Vanessa did. >> Oh, Vanessa did. >> Yeah, Vanessa did. So Vanessa on my. team, she she was handling the the you. know vetting the archival footage that. we use. Is it are we allowed? Is it you. know copyrighted or we there's a lot of. stuff that we never even put in the film. that we spent months and you know.

vetting and all that stuff. And there. was suddenly she contacted the. University of California. and I can't remember which one it is. anyway and uh they had the Edeller tape. from 1982 when he was at Los Alamos. >> Mhm. and she contacted them saying, "Is. that the actual tape?" And they contact. sent a picture of the tape and a picture. of a file folder that was on the same. shelf on this metal shelf in the. archives. And they said, "It's a tape.

and it has not played since that day. It's been sitting there since 1982, June. 28th. July 28th, I think, or June 20, I. can't remember now. Uh 1982.". We're like, "You're kidding." And we. said, "Are we allowed to?" They said, "We could digitize it for you. There's a. cost to doing that. It's a couple. hundred dollars." I I immediately said, "Send them the money." You know, like I. go, "Go.". >> Yes. >> And so she says, "Okay." And she goes, "If you pay an extra $100, they'll do it. faster. Pay an extra $100, you know,

like just go.". >> And and uh they and I said, "Ask them if. we could use it, right?" And they came. back and they said, >> "Uh, good news. It's public domain. You're allowed to use it. You know, just. credit us." And I said, "Absolutely." I. couldn't wait to see it. So, they. digitized it, sent it to us, and they. digitized pictures of the file folder. And it's Edward Teller's personal notes. and personal agenda of those days. And I.

have all that. And it's like him going. going to Los Alamos National Labs. Then. he he was flying o to somewhere else to. have another conference. And it's Ed. Teller. I watched the whole thing. I. mean, it's it's a lot about the weapons. and bombs and all that, but it's. extremely interesting. I bet it's it's. available. It's going to be available on. our we are not alone channel, we. arenal.com channel, and there's the. whole uh thing is going to be put out. there because it's cool. It's just and. in that crowd, they never had a camera.

pointed at the crowd. The camera was. from behind. So, you're only seeing a. portion of the crowd. And Ed teller on. the on the there's two c there's. actually two cameras. there wasn't a. third camera pointed the other way. because if it it would have been we. would have seen Bob Lazar. Yeah. Which. is a really cool thing. >> For sure he was there. Um you mentioned. something almost in passing. I don't. think anyone followed up on it. >> You received legal threats during this. process. What? From who?

>> From my bank. >> From your bank. >> Oh yeah. I had pro we we had a lot of. problems over time. Uh things that were. very weird. Not going to get in all of. them because, you know, they're going to. I I'm still. We put a lot of our money into it. I put. I put uh a lot of money in seven figures. to make this thing happen. >> It's why anyone banks in Canada is. beyond me. >> Uh I can tell you that it's a very toxic. and very I I would almost say abusive.

system in in Canada. And uh the way that. we were um attacked by our bank was. extremely aggressive and unwarranted. How did they. >> they made it they made it look like they. had no idea we were making a film on Bob. Lazar and when they were absolutely. aware that we were making a film on Bob. Lazar because in Quebec in the province. of Quebec where I where we live and. where our studio is uh if you produce a. VR experience which we did.

simultaneously produce because the the. the the environment is to to explore. with a VR uh anyway. >> and you're making that publicly It's. going to be available later this year. Absolutely. It's going to be a different. product and you're going to be able to. go and visit S4. >> If you do that, you are eligible to. receive tax credits for the work that. you're the people that you have and all. that, which is a great perk in Quebec, by the way. And that's why a lot of. video game companies are based in.

Quebec, >> right? >> Because of the the fiscal perks. So, I. didn't even know that. And I thought. this is great, you know, but I had to. get accredited first by the government. And in order for me to get accredited, I. need to get audited. >> Oh, >> so I got audited and I passed. >> Okay. >> And I was like, this is great. I I had. nothing to hide. And they said, you've. got it. You have your at testio, as they. say, which is like a document that says. you are now accredited by the government. to receive if you have if you're if.

you're eligible for credits, then you. you have you're elig you can get them. The bank helped. So the bank got. involved. They were so impressed with. what we were doing that they brought a. committee to the office. The VP of the. of the bank was there. I I got. goosebumps. Company Montreal doing this. Area 51. This is incredible. Whatever. We're going to help you out. So, they. they helped us through and got us a. consulting firm to help us facilitate. the credits, which was great. I said, "Oh, I don't have time to do it anyway.".

And the bank was going to. fund the credits because when you get. approved and the government says, "Okay, we'll send you $250, $300,000, whatever. it is." They don't send to you right. away. It's 18 months. Sure. Right. So, it's not like, "Oh, great. I'm going to. get the money right away." The bank. knows this and it's an opportunity for. them because the banks say, "We'll we'll. front you the money and we'll charge you. interest and when you get it, it's. guaranteed money to us. You pay us the. money." So, I thought, "All right, I'll.

I'll go ahead. Why not?" I mean, it's. it's it's a lot of money. I was I was. eligible for a couple hundred thousand. I'm like, "Go ahead, send it to me.". >> The last day that we had it was it was. constant communication. I mean, this was. the correspondence with these guys was. constant. All of a sudden, they sent me. a an email. You got to send this last. document. I did. Sent it. Done. Beautiful. And they kept saying, "Come. on, Luigi. Hurry up. We want to release. the funds.

I said, "Great. Send them the thing.". Radio silence. No, nothing. I' I've. never had a problem in my life with. banks. This all of a sudden happens. They call and they say, "I I I'm not. getting any answers." So, all of a. sudden, I go, "Let me call put them put. the girl on speaker." So, everybody, by. the way, our studio is all open. We. don't have separate rooms. So, everybody. hears everything. So, I decided, it's. been years. I'm like, "Our business is. completely transparent.".

>> Yep. >> This is how it works. You figure You'll. know what's going on here. And I make. more money than you. I tell everybody. like, "That's just the way it is.". Anyway, so. the the call I she answers the call and. she's and she's stuttering. I I can't. help you anymore. I'm sorry. Bye. >> This is someone you had a relationship. with? >> We were on the phone almost every day. >> So anyway, long story short, I get a. call that they were going to allocate. two new people to our account, right? They allocate two new people to our. account. We're going to ask you and your. mom to come on a Zoom call. My mother is.

owner of the company with me. It's. family business. So, she has absolutely. no idea what we do. [laughter] She she's. just she's just mom, okay? She's been. with me and my sister like, you know, she's helped out all the time. But if we. if my sister and I ask her to come in. the office and help out, she's going to. go like, I what do you want me to do? File? I could file stuff for you, but. other than that, you know, >> I know a lot of Italian businesses with. a silent partner. Yeah, I get it. I get. it. >> So, it's mom. So, I said, "Okay, my. mom." All right, fine. We get on this.

call and it's two attorneys for the. bank. >> Oh, no. >> And they say, "Um, tell us about your. your uh project with these flying with. these UFOs." And I said, "Well, you guys. know about it. What do you want me to. tell you?" Well, tell us about that. And. I said, "You guys know about it? Like, what do you want me to tell? It's a long. story. We've been we've been talking to. you guys for over a year. What What part. do you want me to tell you? like you're. you're that's a pretty broad question. I. thought we were getting into specifics.

So, um we had utilized a portion of our. line of credit. Okay. Which was not even. that much. >> Mhm. >> To keep operating because we're about to. launch the film. >> And because you're using all your own. money and. >> all our own money. >> and it's depleting, >> of course. Right. Yeah. Exactly. So, yeah. By the way, to the to those who. call me a grifter, >> uh that's a really bad way of grifting, >> right? Is going broke. >> Yeah. Is going broke. That's a bad. grifting move. Okay. So,

>> uh I I was in a position I I said, "You. guys know we're using I said we we've. been using the line of credit because of. this and but they knew they kept telling. us we want to give you more. That's why. with these credits from the government, we can give you more." I said, "Great.". She says, "Well, I'm letting you know. that I'm not going to name the bank, but. um. they were royal pain in the asses.". >> Okay, I got it. Um that that bank said, "We are no longer supporting you and.

unless you pay us back what you owe us, we're going to shut you down.". >> So, line of credit done. >> Oh, yeah. >> Pay back. >> You know, so and then I got a paper uh a. court order from them. We had to get. deposed in court. a whole thing about. about what is this UFO pro? It kept. calling it pro of UFO project which I. found to be very suspicious because I'm. like I have other clients. I it was very. specific to this. I have a I I deal with.

the Montreal Transit Commission. I have. other clients. I. >> government government clients. >> Well, one of them is a government. Absolutely. It's government. Absolutely. >> And your business is 30 years old. >> Uh my No, we're uh. 50. Oh, close to 15. >> Okay. I've been 25 years, but this. company is close to 15. So, >> I've been I've been here. >> Okay. [laughter] And I mean, I'm. completely clean. I got audited, right? So, they say, side note, by the way, when this. happened, just a little side note, I'm. going to get back to what happened on.

the on the court document. I called my. lawyer and I'm like, "Dude, I'm I'm in. trouble here. I don't know what the. is going on." And he I I kid you not, he. said, "What did you do?" And I said, "What do you mean, what did I do?" I. didn't do anything. What are you talking. about? He says, "Luigi, you know, you're. Italian.". >> Oh, come on. >> I swear to you. I swear to you. He I I. He says, "You know, did you send money. to somebody?" I said, "Dude, if you say. that again, we don't have a. relationship." I said, "That is such a". I said, that really sucks that you said.

that because why? Cuz I'm Italian. I'm. I'm what? I'm part of some criminal. activity or something. >> Well, I mean, my family has a history, but. >> I mean, but that's not a that's not. we're not we're not criminals. So, it's. like what are you talking about? So, I. actually had to, he says, because they. usually would never do that unless you. did something really bad. And I said, I. didn't. So, that was a big deal. >> Yes. Finally, he says, "All right, fine. Send me whatever." They uh sent me a. quarter. In the court request, I It's in.

French. I'll show it to you later. One of the main things they wanted from. us is all communications between Motivo, my company, and Bob Lazar. >> No. No. Yeah. And that's when he that's. when he said, "All right, now I'm. starting to suspect to now he goes, I. find this suspicious." He says, "Because. they did not request anything related to. your other clients, your the projects. that are going on with Motivo. You guys. have other big we make money with a lot.

of other people. Why only Bob Lazar?". Now, to all the naysayers out there, this actually happened. Okay? Why would. this happen? And and the reality is, I. didn't want to bring it up. I'm bringing. it up lightly, but the reality is they. were part of it for the longest time. Really getting all my information. because they want to help me. >> You Oh, do you think that maybe that was. just. >> I don't know, but they certainly made a.

good show out of it. Yeah. >> Because they sent a committee to my. office. My team freaked out, by the way. Everybody was like, "What the is. going on?" There's nothing controversial. about your film. Bob has been telling. his story for absolutely 30 years. >> Why is this an attack now? You know, this caused problems even internally. with my team at a certain point because. of like, what did you do? Obviously, I. I'm like looking at them going, "Guys, I. swear I didn't do anything wrong.". Because they're like, "Why are we.

getting attacked like this?" I said, "I. do not know." It was until everybody saw. they all went like, "Yeah, this is. really weird because obviously they're. worried about their jobs or whatever. because I have to pay everybody. I mean, I have a responsibly.

on us being successful. So, that was a. huge thing that I was feeling cuz I'm. like, why is this happening? I never had. that happen to me in my life. >> Did you give them the correspondence? >> Let's just say that I made I made sure. that they I told I I made sure to tell. them that yes, the walls in the lab were. off-white and not white. The tiles were.

probably purchased in a commercial store. and not made in some foreign land. That. the equipment looked new and not old. >> Things that were completely useless. M. >> because what the hell what the hell are. you talking about? That's all Bob and I. talked about is building S4, >> right? >> So what what the what do you want? You know what is that what is that going. to change in the whole So I told them, yeah, here's here's what we talked. about. I sent them our email. correspondence together because 99% of.

my correspondence with Bob Lazar was, "Hey Bob, look at this. Was it on the. right or on the left? Do we put these on. the right or on the left? Is it is it. big enough? Is it too small? What colors. are the doors wood? Are they metal? That. What else do you want me to talk about? >> Did they. give you your line of credit back? Did. they lay off? They did not. >> We lost our line of credit. >> You cooperated. They. >> they they blocked her. So, I'm I've sent. a lot of money to my lawyer. So, we owe. we owe them some money. I sent a lot of.

money to my lawyer. He has it in trust. They know that our film was going to be. launching soon. This was a huge risk for. me financially because if I didn't make. it, I really wouldn't have made it. The. fact that this the film began to sell. really well was such a relief for. everybody on my team and me. The first. thing one of my best friends, Julie, said to me, she says, "You saved your. house.".

>> Did you? >> I did. >> I mean, day one, 4.9 out of five on. Amazon. It's a hit. It's end. It's going. to be huge. >> I We were. >> Did this save your business? >> Yes, we uh we were number one most sold. film in America on Amazon for 4 days. We. ended up being number two for two days, number three for two days, and are still. now number four in America. That's a big. thing to say. >> When did you find out it was a hit? Who.

was your first? >> It was Amazon who contacted my. distributor and they contacted me. They. said, "You guys are killing it. You beat. Avatar and the Housemaid's numbers. [laughter]. >> It's a better film than those.". >> Yeah. >> Who's Who's the first one you called. >> to tell? >> Yeah. To This is a This is a triumph. >> You Oh, who I called for? I was with Bob. when I found out. >> You were? >> I was with him and he he was just like. so relieved. He was He's been stressed. for me for a long time. He's like, "Oh.

my god, I can't I hope you make your. money back. I hope you make your money. back." That's all he cared about, by the. way. He he kept I I don't want anything. Him and Joy were like, "We just want you. to be okay." And I called u I called my. sister and she made me cry because she. said, "You you did it." You. know, like she goes, "I'm so glad." She. goes, "I'm so glad I said I I I stayed. there with you throughout the whole. thing." When you said you were concerned.

that you put your sister at risk, what. did you mean by that? >> Financially, it's her job, you know what. I mean? I I I didn't want to be. responsible for that. I remember I. remember I was like, why is this. happening to us? Like, this is not. supposed to happen. And remember that we. had money, but we had to operate. We had. to get to the finish line, >> right? >> So, I could have paid the bank back, but. I wouldn't have been able to finish what. we were doing. And that was a big stress.

because I'm like we're already in deep. seven figures and a lot. So I'm like we. gotta we got to finish this. So for a. lot of for a lot of uh people who were. also wondering why we were delayed there. was some financial times that there was. times that the finances were delaying us. because we were getting attacked and I. had to protect oursel. I had to protect. the company. I had people on I have to. say Christopher Matau and Veronica. are warriors. Christopher looked.

at me and he says, "Fuck them." He goes, "We're going to finish this." And he. would sleep at the studio to make sure. this would happen. Veronica said, "I. got, don't worry about me. Don't worry. about the company. Don't worry about. anything. Don't even look at your. emails. Finish the film." And that's. what we did. How do you keep them. motivated and comfortable for years and. years with all this going on? >> Well, it was only the last year. So, it. was only a year the problems were became.

big. They they became real and uh. >> but it's still a big risk this whole. time. >> Gigantic risk. It's probably the biggest. risk I've ever taken and it's affected. me. I went through a lot during uh. making the film. I I I I had personal. problems with a past relationship of. mine. I I had to treat a precancerous. thing on my face that I apparently I was. getting face skin cancer. Uh I was I.

lost my friend Emily and then this thing. with the bank happened. So, there was. there was a lot of things that happened. and Bob Lazar got had five heart attacks. in the process of us making this film. >> Yeah, I I saw that on Jesse's show. >> and I was and you know he said he said I. am I am worried about all this because. of all these things happening to you. It. was worrying him that this have. something to do with me because he.

didn't want this to happen. So, I was. like, I don't want you to get sick over. this, you know. But it was possibly the. most incredibly stressful time of my. life because I wanted to make sure that. I remember. saying this. I said to Bob, I went to see this is but. one time we were in the pro we were. still in in we were in we were in. trouble. And I looked at him and he.

says, "What are you going to do?" I. said, Imagine a thruster in the cockpit. of an airplane. I said, "I swear to God, I will break the plane, but it's. not I'm not going to stop. I'm going to. bend this thing until it breaks, but I'm not stopping." And he goes, "That's dangerous." I said, "Well, I'm. too much into this right now, so I'm not. going to stop.". >> So, you were surprised when the attacks. came? I was I was surprised at the at.

the uh I I was very surprised with the. bank. That was the one that surprised me. the most because it was impossible for. us to have predicted that could happen. It was like constant communication with. them like everything was fine. It's not. like I was doing something behind the. bank's back. They were part of our daily. process to get the tax credits. It was. like how is this even possible? So. there's no way that was normal. >> No, I don't think tax credits are worth.

giving up privacy like this. >> You understand? So I was like, "What the. is this? You guys I remember even. getting upset at the lawyer going like, but there's I have a year's. correspondence with you guys." She says, "That doesn't even that doesn't matter. anymore. What matters is right now.". That's what she said to me. >> Do you think they wanted to shut you. down or just get information? >> No, they told me they wanted to shut us. down. They sent a baiff with a with a. 10day order that if we didn't pay it. back, they were taking over the company.

>> Oh no. >> I had to get lawyers. I I had to lawyer. up and I there's I the amount of. problems that caused because we didn't. know what was going on. So the reality. is. we did everything we were supposed to. do. We're 100%. We got, again, I can't repeat it enough. We got audited. Okay. And I'm not the.

Italian guy running some I don't know. what. I'm not. Anybody could check that. >> You're not a cash business up there. >> I'm not a c we [laughter] can't even. accept cash anymore. It's like in. Canada, cash is useless now. But it's. like everything is is clear. It's. transparent. I mean we we are 100%. we were we had to be so transparent to. the not only the auditors but to the um. the consulting firm getting us the. credits from the government. They had to.

know what we were up to. So we're like. we're completely transparent here. Like. >> you're not doing the next film in. Canada, are you? >> I am not doing it this the way I am. never using banks money again. >> You're here. >> Okay. Ever. >> Good for you. Anybody listening working. for a bank, you. I'm not I'm not. taking your money. Yeah, good for you. Sorry I had to say that. No, no, I don't. mind. I apologize. Yeah. >> So, I you know, going through your. history, you've got. >> this drone imaging company, merchandise.

Oh, yeah. All this other stuff. >> You found a lot of stuff on me. [laughter]. >> I did. What um what's the unifying. theory with how you build things? >> You're a builder. >> Yeah. >> You make stuff. I went from I still love. to make tangible things. Okay. So, now. that I'm in the intangible world because. making a film, making this for for a guy. who spent my whole career making. tangible products and my biggest feat,

my biggest project in my life is an. intangible product. At 51 years old, that was a challenge. Okay. and to learn. as I went hire right hire the right. people but regardless of hiring the. right people I need to know what's going. on like I need to understand what we're. doing so even Christopher Matau goes. dude you learned Blender really. fast you know what I mean and like. >> it's not easy.

>> no and and here I am working on making. intangible environments intangible. assets filming which is an intangible. thing because it's film Right. It it taught I learned so much in the. last four and a half years doing this. that I'm very grateful that I that I've. gotten to where I've gotten with all. this. I'm so grateful to the people that. I've worked with. I can't thank them. enough. Amazing people who all stood by.

me and my and the team. I'm super. grateful to Bob Lazar for letting me do. this and everybody along George Knap, Gene Huff, Mario Santa Cruz, Joy Lazar, all amazing people. I will continue making tangible things, but I will certainly make more. intangible things. I hope you do. I want. to shift gears for just a couple of. minutes before we close it out. Did I. read correctly that you were with Bob. during one of the congressional. hearings?

>> Yeah, I was with him on the first. congressional hearing. David Grush. >> Dave Grush. Yeah. >> What did he think? >> Uh, was it Dave Grush? >> Yeah, it was Dave Grush. Yeah. Yeah, it. was Dave Grush. Wait a second. Trying to. remember. Yes. Yes. Yes, it was. Absolutely. Uh, Bob was actually. invited. So, this is crazy. I I said it. a while ago. We had him planned to come. to Montreal because we had a green. screen set up. We had a lot of green. screen to do. Okay. So, he knew that. I. said, "We have to interview you and I.

absolutely need you on the green screen. I can't do it without you being in. Montreal.". And this was [clears throat] in 2023. And he said, "I will okay, fine. I'm. going to come and and left his wife at. home to take care of all the animals and. all that." Came to Montreal and we were. set up and gets to my house. I have a. big place downstairs. I have like a a. it's almost like a private apartment. So, whenever I have guests, they stay in. my house and they have their own. kitchen. and everything. And I said, uh,

I said, "Thank you so much for coming.". You know, I said, "You know, that's. going to be the congressional hearing.". And he goes, "I know. I was invited to. go. I was supposed to go." And I said, "What do you mean?" He goes, "I already. planned to come here with you to see. you." So, he skipped it. I said, "You. didn't do the congressional hearing so. you can come and film with us." He goes, "I already I already booked that with. you. I I wasn't going to change that. I'm like, "Oh my god.".

>> I'm kind of glad he did because I don't. think he belongs with those guys. >> He He doesn't want to. He He doesn't. belong. And so. >> I don't trust that narrative. >> Me neither. Me neither, by the way. So. I'm I'm standing there with him in my in. my we're we're at I have this like. counter at the kitchen and we're talking. having coffee or something and I said, "I can't believe you did that." He goes, "Luigi, I'm I want to be part of this. This is this is my story. This is what. you're bringing my story to life." I.

thought, "Oh my god, Bob, this is so. cool." So, we went to the office the. next day. and he's everybody's talking and that. was the day of because the day before. was the day before. The day of we're. filming on a green screen and we take a. break and everybody's, you know, got. makeup on him and he's because trying to. make us look better. You know, we got. those things under our, you know, those. patches that you stick under your eyes. to not have eye bags. >> I know him very well. >> Yeah. Yeah. Bob and I were both wearing.

them. Took a picture with that. It was. funny. And and I and I said to him, I. said, "Did you hear what they just said, congressional hearing?" And he goes, "No." So, we we start going on the phone. and and Bob goes, "Well, I told you so.". And it was I was like I I found that. weird. I go, "It's crazy that they're. saying these things." He goes, "I find. that crazy, too." He says, I said, "What. do you think?" He goes, "I don't want. to. I don't want." He literally said, "I. don't want to be part of that." He goes,

"I don't I don't I have nothing to do. with that." He goes, "If they want to if. they want to keep looking for this, they. can." He says, "But I don't believe. we're going to get disclosure. I don't. believe any of this stuff is going to. come out.". >> I totally agree. When I'm asked about. it, um, I say I don't believe anyone. from the intelligence community, from. Navy intelligence, any of that. I'm. waiting for a technician to show up low. levels with a piece of metal with. something. >> And as I'm saying that, I realize I'm. describing what Bob did. >> in 1989.

>> Absolutely. >> So disclosure is not coming. >> I do not think disclosure like we would. want it is coming. I think we have to be. very ready. We have to prepare ourselves. for something that will appease a lot of. people, but it will not tell us the real. truth. I say it all the time. I use a. very grotesque analogy, if you if you. let me, >> please. Um, I always say if if a guy is.

cheating on his wife and he has two. mistresses. and she starts to suspect that he's. cheating on her and he calls his best. friend and says, "Look, man. I'm going. to tell her that you and I were at the. strip club yesterday and you got to. stick by the story with me." And then. she goes, "Where were you last night?". And he says, "All right, fine. I smelled. of that because there was a stripper. dancing." and I I admit it, you know, and my friend's going to vouch for me. and she'll go she might not divorce him.

because it's just a strip club, but she. doesn't know the real truth. >> That's a pretty good analogy. That's a. limited hangout. >> Exactly. Just just enough. >> So, I don't believe we're going to get. the whole truth. I think we're going to. get something just to appease and I. think it might not even be that good. >> Yeah. I I I forget. Maybe it was Jesse's. show where you was saying just send a. helicopter over there and kick the dirt. And I'm saying I'm saying Luigi, they're. not going to do that. >> They're not going to do that. >> They're not going to go kick the dirt. >> You know, I I was even talking to Jeremy.

Corbel and he's saying, you know, uh. Congressman Berles is apparently going. to be going to all these sites. >> I I said, "Look, I okay, I want to see. it. You know, I I What are they going to. show them? You know, >> they're going to show them empty. hangers. They're not going to go out to. papoose. They're not gonna go out there. >> You All you got to do is go there. It's. a th I think it's a I don't even think. it's a five minute helicopter ride to. Papoose like from from Groom. >> I think it's like 12 miles or something.

It's right there. >> Quick. You just have to look down and. and go. I mean, if if there's some Look, if there's something there, which I. believe there is something there because. we could see it in the picture and we we. have a map that shows there's something. there. >> I kind of believed it until you showed. me that map and blew my mind. There's. there is obviously something there. >> There's something there. It's it's it's. undeniable. It's 100%. So, >> show me the mine then. >> Thank you. If it's just a mine, >> let's go in the mine. >> Yeah. >> And if you put hanger doors in the side.

of the hill, >> how would a how would a a guy who. apparently everybody's saying he's not a. physicist, he's not a scientist, is. which by the way, George Knapp keeps. saying he was the perfect guy for the. job because he's easily discreditable. They could have discredit him. discredited him so easy. >> How would he know that? We didn't know. that. The the media didn't know that. The military, a lot of people in DoD. didn't know that cuz you have to have.

access to go there. In 1989, there was. no Google. There was no Yahoo. There was. no Netscape. Let's go back old stuff, right? There was none of that stuff. We. had to just analog. We had to analog our. way into life and learn things with. analog stuff. How could this dude know that at the. most secret location in the world at a. specific hill, there's so many hills out. there, that there would be hanger doors. hidden in that hill and it's all made.

up. >> There's there's no way. >> There's no way. Come on. >> Um, on Joe's show, he said, um, after 35. years, maybe. I'm the one who made the mistake. Yeah. >> What was the context of that and what. would that mean? >> Excuse me. Um, he makes a good point and. I'll say this a big convers I've had a. lot of conversations about this not only. with Bob but obviously Bob and I have. talked about this a lot and I will say.

this uh we have to be we have to be. realistic about what we're talking about. here and not overly excited about the. topic as a whole. If in fact the United. States or any government, whatever. government, whatever military branch, intelligence branch or contractor, whatever we want to call them, whoever. is in charge, if we are talking about. objects that are technologically. superior than our objects made by.

another civilization. and that these objects are functional, they work. We don't know how how, but we. know they're working. And the these objects allow for energy. to almost I don't want to call it free. energy. I don't like that word because. it's possibly really wrong. But harness. something from. space and time that could be utilized as.

power. >> Mhm. >> And that they could turn out to be. vehicles to travel with transportation. Okay. that would completely obliterate. the entire economic structure of human. society in an instant because. if it comes out the first thing is who's. going to tell us? Let's let's assume.

it's going to be a person in in in an. authoritative position, a president, a. prime minister, whoever. That person who's going to say it is. going to be talking about a topic that. is so fundamentally. attached to our origins because now you. are talking about another civilization. It should almost in in tandem.

be released with a religious connotation. because if you don't have the church or. the mosque or whatever associated to. this type of dis this type of. disclosure, you're going to have a lot of people. very confused in the world because a lot. of of human civilization. has a connection to some religion. Tim. Burchett said if we release this a lot. of people are going to be upset. So if. that happens with a religious connection.

now you have to have who's going to say. it to us and which of the religious. groups are going to be allowed to say it. because if they do that means they. validated it. >> Right? It has to be validated. It's not. just a politician who comes up there and. says, "This is what I want you to say. with me on camera.". >> No. If the pope says it, that's. different. >> That's different. So now there has to be. validation. Validation implicates more. people.

>> Mhm. >> More people implicates security. parameters that could be breached. We. have adversarial countries that are not. always in line with the way we function. Clearly, something like this is. happening. Their spy networks are on. alert. you. We could say whatever we want about. how beautiful America and strong it is, but we should never underestimate. adversarial countries. >> No, they have a lot of money, a lot of. resources. If suddenly we trip just for a second.

and they could take advantage of that, they will. >> They will. >> Okay. So now you have you have all these. people moving around just to tell us. By. the way, all this. >> this is just this is yeah just just to. tell us there there's nothing happening. It's just to let us know. >> I agree with everything you're saying. >> Now once the process has been vetted and. you have the pope let's say the pope is. involved could be another it could be. the pope and and a rabbi or whatever al.

together let's all sing kumbaya and say. it together. There's too many people. involved. when they announce it to us. We as. people have been so jaded with wrong. information from the government and. religious groups that we're not going to. immediately accept it. Nope. >> We're going to need validation. How is. that going to happen? Who will do that? How are we going to see validation be. accepted by the by by the people and.

without some up uprising of some sort. So you are now going to have to. implicate other steps with other people. to validate this so that people go okay. this is real regardless of the fact that. you say we deserve to know that we are. not alone in the universe but you could. keep the technology secret well how do. you do that. >> you can't do that you can't do that it's. a catch 22 you have to show me for me to. believe you and you also have to show me.

that I believe that it can be contained. because I don't want China to have it. >> No. And they'd love to have it. >> You see where I'm going? So now again, look at look at this is a mess. It's. already a mess. >> Mhm. >> In addition to that, there are people. probably within the programs. I do. believe they're still operating somehow. >> Those people, they're not they're not uh. they don't come from a uh they're not.

cloned. These are people that were born. They have families. They probably still. have parents. They have kids, wives, houses, mortgages, friendships, and. cousins and. >> and things to lose. >> And things to lose. Now, they signed up. and they're good at keeping their mouth. shut, but they never signed up for. somebody going, "All right, it's over. here. It's over here. Here, hey, George, come here. Like, let let me show. Hey, George, what what have you been doing. for the P?" Because you have to do. something like that for the world to. believe it, right? That's a you're.

that's a tall order for the people to to. just swallow. Oh, we're not alone in the. universe and we have extraterrestrial or. some type of non-human technology. You better show me. >> It's the only way. They have been. creating this disinformation muddy the. waters campaign for. >> for a long time. >> Since 1947 at least. Absolutely. >> So now we're finally here and we're not. going to believe it unless you show us. all of it. Exactly. And they can't do. that. >> They can't do that. It's a c it's it's a. trap. It's a trap. >> And so as a result,

>> and I think the military-industrial. complex is just kind of cracking their. knuckles and saying, >> "We know that it's it's a trap.". >> They're like, "Do you get it now?". >> Yeah. Exactly. And so that's where Bob. said, "Maybe I am the Maybe. this was supposed to be kept secret. Maybe I shouldn't have come forward and. I I I didn't realize what I was doing.". That's where that came from when he said. that, right? >> He says, "Maybe this should be kept. secret because it could cause havoc. Who. knows? He also said in an interview,

there's a there's a there's one of a one. of our fans, his name is Marello Romano. He's probably listening and I love that. kid. He's got a very very bad thing that. happened to him. Uh a medical. malpractice thing that gave him a. horrible lifelong problem that is. probably not going to make his life. He's a young kid and and he reached out. to us says, "I don't think I'm going to. be here for a long time. I'd love to see. the movie ahead of time." Whatever. We. got to meet him. Bob. Bob was so nice. This guy lives not two hours away from.

Bob. Bob said, "Tell that kid that it's. my birthday on Friday and I I'd rather. be with him than with anybody else on my. birthday." That kid, it was his dream to. me. Bob Lazar goes out there and we have. a conversation with him. And Bob opened. up. It'll be on our channel. We'll. eventually put that conversation out. And Bob said, "There is no way to get. this technology out to the world without. immediately causing a major problem. He. says if they can replicate it, which is. possibly not the case, by the way,

right? >> They could use it. They don't know how. to replicate it. So that's that's. another problem. >> That's a chimpanzeee with a machine gun. >> Exactly. So what what you're doing here. is you're essentially removing all. borders. If we could go anywhere, anytime, however we want, instantly. Well, what do we care about? Border Patrol and. the the borders, the countries and and. and cultures and all of a sudden that. doesn't matter. What about pandemics? If. if I go to Africa right now and I go.

hang out, if I decide to go to Zimbabwe. and go with some of the tribes out there. and hang out with them for a month and. when I come back and and the border guy. in Canada goes, "Have you been in. certain areas?" Yes. Well, I'm going to. get sealed off. Y. >> they're going to make sure I don't have. Ebola. They're going to make sure I. don't have Why? Well, it's cuz we don't. have that in Canada. >> Right. >> Right. Well, all of a sudden that just. goes away. I could go to Zimbabwe, hang. out, get deni, go back home, give deni. to a mosquito flies into this thing. We.

go out and everybody starts getting. sick. What the hell tells us that can't. happen? >> Or just show up at the Kremlin or. Langley. >> and you could Bob said you want to get. all the gold in the world, go to Fort. Knox, just take it and go away. like. what stops us from using this to and you. know my friend Chris Ramsey said to me. it's the best thing he about the. government he says if the government of. if the government of the United States. invented a drop of water the first thing. they do is figure out how to how to. drown you in it'll turn it into a weapon.

>> Yep. Absolutely. >> That's the reality of it. So if we don't. if we don't accept that and we want to. we want to pretend that's not reality. and we want to live in the world where. everybody says, "Well, I'm ready for. it.". >> No, >> I'm you. You. >> don't even know what you're talking. about. >> We're not ready for it. >> We're not ready for it. I don't. personally think I am because I mean I'm. I've been so exposed to the topic for so. long. Of course, I would love to know,

but that's a selfish thing that I'm. saying because what the hell am I really. talking about cuz I don't even know what. it is. >> Well, that's my last question is forget. what Bob says. You've been doing the. work for 35 years. What is really. happening in the skies in the water? What do you think is going on? >> The right answer is I don't know. If I if I gave you an answer, that means. I haven't been doing this for 35 years.

>> Do you have a favorite theory? Time. travel alternate. >> I don't think I don't think that time. traveling and extraterrestrials are a. separate thing. >> Interesting. >> I think that. there is no way to travel in a linear. fashion in the universe. I don't believe. that. I don't think that's I think. that's just the reality of of space and. time. There's nothing that travels faster than. light in a linear direction.

Based on that, we cannot reach alpha. centauri for 30 years something like. that or is it four years at the speed of. light? I can't remember. >> Yeah, it's 3.8 3.9 years light years. >> Light years. So the the thing is that's. not how we're going to travel. Whatever these objects can do, I call. them objects because they're. technological marvels. Call them that. They they apparently have, and this is. again not just based on what Bob Lazar.

says, but also some of the people that. are coming out talking about these. gravity generators, these having a. controlling gravity, controlling some. type of time warp. >> Yep. Gravity and time and space are. interlocked. It's the same thing. It's. exactly the same thing as you are. We're. essentially bending space and time. You're time traveling in our We're not. time traveling like Marty was time. traveling in in in the Delorean time.

machine, >> right? >> But we are It is time travel because. >> if you're manipulating gravity, >> if you're man manipulating gravity, you. are essentially manipulating time. It's. you're not you're not doing it to go. like let me go back and see if I can get. give myself the lottery numbers. That's. that's not what's happening. >> Right. >> So. to me it has to be extraterrestrial. I. think it it has to be extraterrestrial. It's a it's not it's not just one.

species. I don't believe it's only one. type that has have been here. I do. believe they have been here. I'm very. high conviction they have. Uh I can't. prove it like everyone like everyone. can't prove it. Uh but I can't prove it. as much as the pope can prove that Jesus. walked on on earth. That's fair enough. >> Okay. There's a lot of people in the. world that believe that Jesus walked on. water, multiplied bread, raised the. dead, turned water into wine, and they.

believe it. There is absolutely nothing that. supports it, but they believe it and. they'll they'll die believing it. But. yet there's a an enormous amount of. evidence that there are objects in the. sky that are producing that are they're. doing things that are absolutely. impossible in with conventional. aircrafts that we have. Caught them on. radar, caught them on multi-systems. Yet, we don't want to believe that.

that's possible, that they came from. another planet because because and I. also spoke to some the most well-known. scientists out there because there's no. way for them to come here. It's too far. away. >> Yeah. With our type of technology, of. course. >> Right. >> We couldn't have gone to the moon on a. horse and carriage. >> That's [laughter] true. >> So, it's like, of course, I get it. But. there's more and we'll keep finding. more. >> We only know 5% of physics. Exactly. >> So, it's in there somewhere.

>> Well, eventually. I hope we get a little bit of clarity, but my hope before we get clarity on the. on the ETSs and the UFOs, going back to what my friend used to. say, Emily, I hope we start paying. attention more to us as a species and. start becoming a better species to. ourselves first. Then we'll worry about. ET. That's a long going to be a long. time coming. Luigi Ventelli, I hope you. become a full-time filmmaker. It's.

amazing. S4 is amazing. Really. excellent. Um any anything you want to. send them anywhere you want? >> Well, look, it's available obviously on. Amazon Prime Video uh under S4 the Bob. Lazar story and it's also available on. we are not alone.com. >> All right. Going to be looking for the. UFO and the book and all that stuff. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. >> Hi everybody. So that was Luigi. Venditelli, former national director of. Mufon Canada and the filmmaker behind. S4: The Bob Lazar story. Bob Lazar's.

timeline holds up on specific checkable. points. He went public through. journalist George Knap on Las Vegas TV. in May 1989, describing a fuel source, element 115, that didn't exist yet. It. was first synthesized in 2003. Naming a. then non-existent element in 1989 is a. strange thing to get right if you didn't. know about it. The 1941 map Luigi's team. found is also real. It shows a road. leading into the mountain at Papoose.

Lake, exactly where Lazar [music] placed. S4. Maps from 1950 and 1952 don't show. that road at all. And the Papoose. [music] Lake map was edited 8 days after. Lazar went public. Luigi's light. discovery that the craft's interior. appear to absorb rather than reflect. hallogen [music] lighting. Well, ultra. lightabsorbing materials are a real. field of research. Now, whether this. particular material behaves that way, I. don't know, but it is scientifically. possible. And here's what I keep coming. back to. Emily Trim's last words to.

Luigi. They came down from the sky and. landed in front of us and talked to us. so that we could tell the [music] world. and nobody cared. Whatever happened at. the aerial school in Zimbabwe in 1994, this is a woman who spent her life. trying to communicate something shown to. her as a child. She died believing no. one listened. And those images the. beings transmitted war, suffering, the. earth on fire that [music] seems to be. happening all around us right now. I. hope we do something about it. As for.

the Bob Lazar story is on Amazon Prime. Video. I promise it's really good. Luigi's company is we are not alone.com. For background on the foundational crash. that started all of this, I covered. Roswell front to back. The truth about. Roswell linked down below. [music] Until. next time, be safe, be kind, and know. that you are appreciated. [bell].

Oh. yeah, [music]. I play in Area 51. A secret code inside. the Bible [music] said I would. I love my UFOs and paranormal [music]. fun as well as music singing like I. should. But then another [music] conspiracy. theory becomes the truth, my friends.

And [music] it never ends. No, it never ends. [music] I feel the crap guy. I got stuck. inside M's home with MK truck. I feel. only aware. Did Stanley Cubric fake the moon landing. alone on a film set? [music] I would. shadow people there.

The Roswell just fought the smiling man. I'm told [music]. and his name was cold. But I can't. agree. [music] Dancing with the fish and. the fish on Thursday night when they. chang. through the night. [music]. All I ever wanted was to hear the truth. of the world. through the night.

[music]. The math man sightings and the solar. storm still come to a [music] gather the. secret city underground. Mysterious number stations, [music].

Planet Circle, Project Stargate, and. where the dark watchers found. in a simulation. Don't you worry though. with the black night satellite over. [music]. with the fish. on [music] Thursday nights when they. chase you and weapons all through the. night. >> [music].

>> All I ever wanted to hear the truth. all through the night. [music] on Thursday night when they. change you. all through the night. [music]. All I ever wanted was to hear the truth. the world with me on the road.

[music]. Girl loves to dance. to dance on the [music] dance floor. because [singing] she is a camel. Can't. love to dance [music] when the feeling. is right. in time. [music].

[music].