The Basement: Joseph Matheny | The Man Who Hacked Reality Before the Internet Existed

Today I'm talking with Joseph Matheni, a. writer and storyteller who built the. internet's first alternate reality game. He built a story so convincing it made. people believe a portal to another. dimension was hidden in the New Jersey. Pine Barons. That whole state is another dimension. >> Be nice. I've got family in Jersey. Once. you cross the GWP and hit Fort Lee, it's. like an alternate universe where every. left turn is a jug handle and you're not. allowed to PUMP YOUR OWN GAS. That story. was Ang's hat. Not published as a novel,

but scattered across bulletin boards, websites, phone lines, pamphlets. The. story felt real. Today, we'll talk about. where that ARG came from and how it got. weaponized. And we'll get into his. chatbot from the '90s. You see, he built. Google before Google. He built chat GBT. before open AAI 30 years ago. >> This guy was spreading disinformation. when Facebook was just a twinkle in Mr. Zuckerberg's eye. This lizard eye. respect it.

>> Joseph's also been connected to the John. Teter story, the time traveler who. appeared on Art Bell. When I asked him. about it, he said, "Well, this one gets. weird. I'll see you after for a private. wrap-up just between us. Let's go down. to the basement.". >> Joseph, welcome to the basement. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'm excited. I've been a fan for a long. time. Before we dig in, I need to know.

WC Fields martini recipe and method. >> Oh, absolutely. Yeah. >> Let's go. I got. >> talk to me by Robert Anton Wilson. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> What do we got? [clears throat]. >> He comes to my house one day and. uh I said, "Bob, I heard you like. martinis." He's like, "Well, I like. martinis, but only a certain way. You. have to make them right. And let me show. you." Like, "Kid, move aside." So, okay. I moved aside. And while he's making his. martini, he tells me the story that he. read how this martini was made by WC.

Fields in a book. And so you take put. [clears throat] ice in the shaker, then. you pour the vermouth over the ice, then. you shake it around, then you pour the. vermouth out, leaving the ice in. Then. you pour the vodka. Important, vodka, not gin. >> Yes, sir. >> You pour the vodka over the ice. Shake. it very gently because you don't want to. bruise. >> Don't bruise. Right. >> Yep. And then you pour it out. >> Very nice. >> Yeah. And it works. >> I'm going to remember that method. >> And that's that's the way I've eaten. made martinis ever since.

>> So it's Robert Anton Wilson. So that's. kind of a good segue to get back to the. origin story. And we can go back as far. as you want. >> Okay. >> Um I love the bookstore stuff and that's. synchronicities are crazy, but wherever. you want to go, >> like what what what made you the pioneer. of ARGs? [laughter]. And we and that could be the last time. we even say ARG today. >> It go It's okay. We go back. Let's go. back a little bit. >> Okay. >> I remember when I read a book called No.

One Here Gets Out Alive, the story of. Jim Morrison. >> And I like the way they did it is they. put it in three sections and basically. it was like so you realize that an arrow. being drawn back and then the releasing. of the arrow was the arc of Jim's story. Yep. >> I was a voracious reader when I was a. kid and my parents were cool in that. they said, "Oh, he can read." [laughter]. >> They were happy. And um and so they.

rewarded me by saying, "We will buy you. books and if you read these books, we. will buy you more books." And so I just. I would just tear through books. And so. I used to buy I was being kind to my. parents. I came from a working-class. background. I said, "Used books are okay. because I'm going to tear through them. I'm probably going to mark them up and. then, you know, and uh I would get money to go to the. garage sales. and just pick up whatever." And so in.

[clears throat] my age, I'm old. I'm 64. years old, so like in the 60s and 70s. when I was growing up, horror and the. occult was very popular. And so, um, I was big on the Universal. Monsters, the Hammer films, like all that kind of. stuff. And anything to do with that, I. was reading. So, this is a funny segue. I'm at a. garage sale and I'm like, the guy says, "You can have all the books on that. table for a dollar, but you got to pack.

them up and get out of here because I'm. done. How could I do?" I'm like grabbing. everything I thought was worth it. And. one [clears throat] of the books was. like, "Oh, that's about astrology." And. I just threw it in a bag. I get home, I. start reading it. I'm like, "This is not. astrology at all." But it was Tropic of. Cancer by Henry Miller. >> Oh, >> that's how I get introduced to Henry. Miller. >> Wow. Okay. >> By thinking it was astrology. [laughter]. >> Oops. >> Oops. How old were you? >> Oh, god. 12. >> Oh, no. Okay. Well, probably great for. 12. >> It was great. It was [laughter] perfect.

>> I'm like, God, I want to do this like. with the way this guy writes, you know, and so like that was my gateway drug. I. I from there I segueed into Carowak and. you know everything from there. But it. was that accident of buying that book. for a nickel or whatever it was and. reading it and falling in love with like. this is a whole new thing I didn't know. about this. >> This is amazing. I didn't know this. about you cuz I can see it in your. writing. I can see Carowak. I can see. Hunter S. Thompson. I see that in Henry.

Miller. I see it in your writing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Those are my influences. Ducowski. >> Yeah. >> Like uh you know, Hemingway, it's like. make the sentences short and sweet and. like bam, like, you know, so I'll go. back and rewrite and rewrite and. rewrite, which, you know, that's. Ginsburg. >> Like, write it once, >> right? >> You know, oh no, don't don't touch it. >> And he says, "Shut up.". >> Yeah. Yeah. Write it once and get away. Um, so, you know, I was now I was like.

floating in this world of like all this. weird counterculture stuff which is. available readily. when I was a kid. >> You're in Chicago. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. In Chicago. and all this occult stuff and literature. and of course being in Chicago, all that. stuff was available to me. I started. hanging out in bookstores. um where most of the people hanging out. when were much older than me. So, you. know, they kind of mentored me and I. remember my my um are you going to be in. the club kid thing was um this guy said.

uh if you read I said I said I couldn't. pronounce Carowak at the time. I didn't. know how and I called him Karac or. something like that. [laughter] I said I. read this book by Jack Karac and this I. saw this guy look at me. He goes you. know that guy wrote this book called On. the Road and he would stop at the cafes. all the time and he would get the same. thing. What was that? I said, "Cup of. coffee and a apple pie alam mode." He's. like, "Oh, you did read it." And so we. And then he's like, "Oh, you cool kid. I'll talk to you." So I I started.

hanging out with these older hipsters. that were like, "Oh, you got to read. this. You got to read this. You got to. read." So he feeding me all this stuff. And I'm just a kid, you know? It's like, "Give me, give me, give me." He's like. eating it up. So. because of this, it puts me in a. position in Chicago where I'm hanging. out with people who are doing improv. I'm hanging out with method actors. And. these are all people much older than me. But for some reason, I'm the kid like, "Oh, yeah, he can hang out. He's He's. cool. He won't tell us. [laughter] He.

won't tell his parents where he's been. They would take me to things." Yeah. It. was It was incredible. >> You were the weird smart kid. >> I was the weird smart kid. Yeah. Yeah. I. was the uh the mascot basically, right? Yeah. Like, "Oh, we got this kid." And. um and I used to They loved this. I. would memorize things and I would stand. up on a little chair and I would do I. could do um uh Lions in the Heat and. Roaming Dos right before I could do the. Morrison thing and they love that, you. know. So, they would make me do it, you.

know, like they would get drunk like do. the Morrison thing, kid, you know, and. they would do it. So anyway, I'm I'm. around these people who are like just. feeding me with all this counterculture. knowledge and turning me on to things I. would never have been turned on to as a. you know like my family. They didn't. know any of this stuff. You know, my dad. was one of those people like, you know, go to school, get a job, get a good. factory job, you know, be done. And I'm. not saying he was a bad person, he was a. great person, but you know, that was his. way of thinking. All these things that.

I'm doing, he would just be like, "Okay, whatever." you know, like he didn't. understand and he didn't care. He knew I. was not up to good things according to. him, but he wasn't a perfect kid either, so he just kind of let me go, you know. He's like, "He's doing something, but. I'm not sure what it is, but he's not. doing drugs." Little did he know. [laughter]. I was. >> Someone sent me a clip of myself from. about 2 years ago. I watched it and. thought, "That guy's on sharper, faster, more himself." and I don't remember.

feeling different then, which means I. didn't notice it leaving. Turns out. there's actually a reason for that. Most. men start losing testosterone around 30, about 1% every year after that. And a. lot of what your body does produce gets. locked up by a protein called SHBG. So, your body can't even use it. [music]. It's like having money in the bank with. a frozen account. That's when I started. taking Mars Men. Now, I'll be honest, I. didn't expect much, but a few weeks in, I was back to the 2 AM rabbit holes. That guy in the clip started showing.

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when you use basement at men go to. Mars.com. That's men go to Mars.com and. use code basement at checkout. After you. purchase, they'll ask you what you heard. about them. Tell them we sent you. Long story short, I get involved with all these artists. and um I start getting involved in. something called mail art when I was in. college. And mail art goes all the way back to. dada. Um, it's basically like you put.

things together as a package, you mail. to a friend or you mail to a list of. friends, they put things together, they. add, they subtract, they conglomerate, and then they mail onto the next list. And so like this is going on in the all. over the world, right? We're mailing. stuff all over the place. >> I remember this. >> It's still around. >> Zen culture and all. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, the Zen culture, then. Xerox machines became available. Then we. became our own publishers. Yep. The punk. rock thing happened which I was right in. the middle of.

>> Um so all of these things are happening. and I started doing weird things by mail. art. So I started doing episodic stories. >> based horror stories or. >> whatever whatever. Okay. >> Sometimes I would like write five lines. and send to a friend and he would write. five lines and send to another friend. and I'd get it back and like oh wow okay. that's where we're going. And it was. called the um I think the daughters. called it the uh exquisite corpse. And.

we did all these things together. Um and. I looked at it and I said, "There's. something here. There's there's. something here." And I don't have to go. through a publisher to create this art. I don't have to go through an agent. I. don't have to do any of these things. I. don't have to do a gatekeeper. I can. make art that gets to a lot of people. and I don't have to go through, you. know, any corporate anything. >> Is that what you wanted to do at this. point is be an artist?

>> It was what I was. Yeah. >> I mean, you were, but I mean, what are. you telling dad you're going to do for a. living? [laughter]. >> Um, I didn't have an answer to that. >> You just hear a lot of snipping and. taping upstairs. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and at that time I was I. was painting. >> Okay. Um, so I was doing a lot of large. paintings and um, and my family was. trying to be supportive but didn't know. how to be because they didn't understand. what I was doing, >> of course. >> And so like my mom would tell her.

sisters, "Ask him to do a painting for. you, you know." And one of my aunts. would say, "Can you do a painting for. me?" And I'm like, "Sure." Like here's. my color swatches. [gasps and laughter]. No, you have to match my furniture. No. >> Oh. >> Um, so they really didn't get it, but. they were trying to be supportive and I. didn't want to be mean to them. So, like. I painted some paintings. Um, but. basically, um, I was looking for,

um, a new kind of art because I felt. like the media was this canvas that. wasn't being fully. implemented as to its fullest potential. because I had this theory that an. experience for me was I would see. something on TV, I would go find a. newspaper or magazine article about it, Then I would go get a book out of the. library and I would build this. experience around this thing that I had. like latched on to. Who knows how I.

latched on to it. Like walking down the. street and there was a poster on a pole. and it said something. I'm like, what is. that about? And then I would follow up. on it. Like wouldn't that be cool if. there was an art form or I built a. pathway for people to follow up on. something weird. >> that I placed them from. So like, oh, there's this thing. There's this place. And so I remember um. my thesis in college was I wrote a book.

of poems and I made a videotape at the. time which was cutting edge. It. >> must have been. >> Yeah, it was um it was cutting edge. I. think 1984. it was cutting edge at the time. um that. I did a VHS tape and you would watch the. tape and then you would get clues from. the book and the tape to go at a certain. place at a certain time on a certain day. and if you did you would see the third. act which was a play of real humans play.

it out in front of you as if you weren't. there and the third act happened and my. professor was like wow what are you. smoking kid [laughter]. it's cool but wow um and then I and it. worked worked. Like I remember jumping. up and down after it was over and. hugging my girlfriend at the time like. it worked. It worked. It actually worked. because I wasn't sure it was going to. work because it was a lot of moving. parts. >> Sure. And. >> and you you really weren't f focused on. dopamine triggering at this point.

because that's what you were you became. a master of dopamine. >> Yeah. Yeah. But at that point I I was. just an unsure kid who had a stupid idea. and and I put it together. I'm like, can. this work? This might not work. >> It can work. >> Yeah, but like you always have those. theater jitters, you know, like. >> of course. >> I'm going to suck, but. >> I have those before every show, man. >> Right. Um, so I just had I I wasn't sure. it was going to work and then I got. really happy when it worked and.

everybody that did it like followed it. through told me like, "Dude, that was. incredible. I read the the poems and. then I watched the tape and then we went. to the performance. It was amazing. Like. it was like it all made sense. So I was. like, "Yeah, well good." It's like three. acts, boom. So um I started playing around with. ideas of how can I do this. another way? And so I played with street.

theater. I used to do a lot of street. theater. I started hanging out with. people in Chicago. Mhm. >> Um, studied under Dell close. >> You studied under Dell? >> Well, people the people I hung out with. did. >> I was a little too young for Dell. >> Yeah. >> Um, yeah. >> Second city. >> Next generation. I probably would have. been there, but yeah. Um, but you know, um, my girlfriend's dad, my girlfriend. at the time, her dad was a friend of. Dell's. >> Amazing. >> So, I used to hang out with him. When. Dell got sober, apparently, um, he still. hung out at the Earl of Oldtown, which.

was a bar in Oldtown Chicago. and he. would go into the bar and drink soda, water, and lime because the bar was. where he got inspiration. So, he kept. going, but he just didn't drink anymore. >> Um, so yeah, because I started studying. the things that he talked about because. you might not know this. Um, I told this. to the people at the Del Coast Theater. in Hollywood and they didn't know this. either. Dell was a practicing Golden. Dawn magician. >> I didn't know that. Golden Dawn. Wow.

>> Yeah. So, if you look at the portrait at. the Del if it's still there, the Delo. Theater on Hollywood Boulevard, if it's. still there, I don't know if it is. >> I don't think it is. >> I've been gone for like 10 years. >> Yeah. >> But it used to be. If you look at the. portrait, big painting of him on on the. wall, he's wearing a ring. >> with a pentagram on it. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> I didn't know that. And if you read some. of the weirder little. interviews that he did, he does admit to. using the Golden Dawn Tismotic. principles to teach improv.

>> That's amazing. >> So Telism is when when you learn when. you learn uh ritual, you learn basically theatrical. principles. And so you think in your. mind like in front of you there is an. angel and this is what the angel is. wearing and these are the principles of. the angel. you lo all this stuff you're. projecting and Dell used that as the. method to teach people this is what. you're doing in theater like when you're. talking to this person in front of you.

they're not the person in front of you. the person that you're supposed to be. talking to in the in the text. >> this is an initiation ceremony is just. >> yes. >> two actors. >> I never really thought of it that way. but that's really what it is. >> he never laid it out for most people. like that because most people be like. magic pick up, you know, and they. >> right, >> but that's what he was doing. >> If you want to know what was in that. man's mind, >> he wrote a short-lived DC.

uh comic series called Wasteland. >> I didn't know that either. >> Yeah, there's like 13 issues and you can. still find them. Um they're out of. print, but you can still find them. And. in that he talks about ritual magic and. Philip K. Dick makes an appearance. Robert Anton Wilson makes an appearance. Timothy Liry makes an appearance. G. Gordon Litty makes an appearance. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. You got to see you got to. read this. It's great. It came out in. the 80s. It's just amazing. >> Um, so, but that's what that's where it.

all came from was his improv theories, which everybody knows Delos is the guy. >> Yes, he's the guy. >> that you go to for the theory. >> And that all came from Golden Dawn. >> So, I'm studying and playing with people. that are studying with him. And I'm. learning from him. And I and and I. started learning and studying magic and. I'm like, "Oh, this is theater. Okay, I. can do this." Yeah, theater. And so I'm. putting all this together and out of. this, you know, um, Swiss Army knife.

that forms in my head [laughter] of all. these influences. I'm like, "Oh, you. know, if I could only do this thing, if. I had a way to get it in front of. people." So I started playing around. with Hyperard. I don't know if you. remember HyperCard. >> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. You You may have to. catch people up. >> Okay. Hyperard came out right before the. web. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> And basically it was hyper text that was. localized. So it was in a file. You.

click on a link and it takes you to. another page in the file. >> It was magic. >> It was magic. Yeah. >> Um you click on an image, it takes you. to another page in the file. When I saw. that, my mind went. >> Yep. But I started putting together a. hyperard stack as they were called. >> And right about that time, this was 93. somewhere around there, um maybe. earlier, um somebody said, "Go to your. Unix machine, type in the words lynnx.

space http slash. string. >> links first browser.". >> Yeah. >> On the command line. >> On the command line. Yeah. And I did it. And I went tab tab tab click. And it. took me to another system. Not another. page. Another page on another system. And that's when my head just went. This. is it. This is it. This is what I've. been looking for. I thought HyperCard. was it. This is Hyperard on steroids. This is it. And that's that's when the. light went off. So I was all that was.

searching for this way to tell stories. that I thought the way or the way. stories happen to you because I think. stories happen to you. I think story. storytelling is the most important thing. that humans do and that we shouldn't. turn it over to corporations and bean. counters. None of that. It's like a very. sacred thing. You have a responsibility. as a storyteller to shepherd your story. and protect it. The story was given to.

you by what? Who knows what, right? But. it wasn't you. Wasn't all you. And it. wasn't somebody else. It wasn't all. them. Like, of course, I stand on the. shoulders of giants and I read people. and I'm inspired, but it wasn't just. that. There's like this holy thing that. happens like this inspiration. >> You believe in like the muse. >> The muse. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And it. says, "You have this story to tell and. I'm going to give it to you. I'm. entrusting you with this story and you. go tell this story. I think storytellers.

used to be revered for a reason is. because what they were doing was. important. So you could break it down to. like simple stuff. I'm going to tell you. a story about this part of the woods. where you go and a monster's going to. come get you. Really what I'm telling. you is like there's bears over there and. probably don't go there at night. Yep. >> Right. That's what I'm telling you. really. But what I'm I'm telling you in. a way that's entertaining but medicic. you remember it and you're going to tell. your kids don't go over there because. there's monsters. Other words, don't get.

eaten by the bears. But if you just tell. a kid, don't get eaten by the bears, >> they're going to want to go see what's. over there. I would have. Yep. Of course. you would have. Of course that we're. going to the first thing we're going to. do. I don't believe this bear crap. [laughter] And you're going to go over. there, right? So you have to tell a. story that's going to really stick. They're going to repeat it. it's going. to make an impression and they're going. to carry it with them. So, you're. passing it on, right? And mimemetics, remember, is from genetics, right? It's. a it's a metaphor from genetics. So, it's something we pass on. Stories are.

something we pass on is very important. And I'm saying this because I want. people to really understand that as an. artist, handing your story over to be. counters is sacrilege. Don't do it. >> Summer is here. And if you want to. actually feel confident, less bloated, and energized this season, it starts. with your gut. I thought bloating after. every meal was just normal. It's not. Once I fixed my gut, everything else. followed. And the one thing that made. the biggest difference is cowboy.

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our listeners get up to 25% off their. entire order. Just head to. cowboycostroom.com/wyfiles. and use code yfiles at checkout. That's. 25% off when you use code yfiles at. cowboyc colostrum.comfiles. So I got I got hit by this bolt of. lightning as my late friend Ralph. Abraham used to say a bolt from the. blue. And it just struck me like this is. it. This is the thing. And I remember.

telling friends, there's this thing that I'm doing called. bulletin board systems that has a. connection to this thing called the. internet, which is going to be the next way to. tell stories. It's going to be the way. to publish. It's going to be the way to. distribute. It's going to be everything. And this looked at me like, "Are you. crazy? Are you nuts? This is like CB. radio, man. It's going to go away in. like six months.". >> Yeah. Right. >> I remember somebody telling me that. >> Of course. >> Yeah. I was on BBS's. I was a weirdo.

>> Me, too. Yeah. And they're like, "You've. been spending pretty much time in this. computer, son." And I remember showing a. friend of mine, "This is what it's going. to be." And I I showed him links. I'm. like, "I can put the story together.". And the story can have links to other. ideas. So, you can expand upon the idea. or you can you explore the idea. You can. like drill down on certain things. and he looked at it and he just said, this is an older person, um, a. well-known writer. I won't say who it. was. He's gone now, but so I don't want.

to embarrass him even in death. He says, uh, when this thing can make me a. sandwich, give me a call. >> Oh, [laughter]. >> that's what he said me. [gasps] So I. said, "Oh, well, you know, too bad." Um, but I was really convinced. I'm like, "This is going to be the next wave.". Well, male art translated well to BBS's. >> And the funny thing was. two of the hobbies I had as a kid was. mail art and shortwave. I really got.

into shortwave when I was a kid and all. the people that I knew from those. communities started to show up on BBS's. They were some of the first adopters. Art Bell. >> Yep. >> Shortwave guy shows up on BB. These are. the first people doing BBS. you know, gophers and FTP sites and all. these things. >> I remember, man. >> Were were available to, you know, a few, not a lot, but I but I was like, it's.

going to happen. It's going to happen. >> I miss those days a little bit. >> I do, too. >> And then Netscape happened. >> Yes. >> And that's when boom, it blew it blew. wide open. >> Yep. And I was sitting right at the. right place at the right time with. enough momentum already because I'd been. doing it before that that just like. plowed right into it and rode the wave. because um at the time that that. happened all of a sudden all these. businesses, we have to have email, we have to have. web, who can we call? Oh, there's this.

weirdo that knows all this stuff. And my. phone started ringing. And then I did a. hack um which a guy from Spin magazine. wrote about um where uh. the Clinton administration came out and. said that they were going to have email. in the White House, which at the time. was like, "Wow, I could write president. at whitehouse.gov." Not that he's ever. going to answer me, but I could write. him. And I watched the I watched the.

server come up and I'm like, I bet they. didn't lock this down. So I sent an. email to president of whitehouse.gov and. then I sent a second email to president. white house.gov and then a third and a. fourth. I'm like they didn't turn it. off. So they had an auto reply. which you had at that time now it comes. stock or eventually came stock but at. the time when you deployed your mail. server you had to manually change this.

that when you got an email if you got a. second email from that email address you. shouldn't send an auto reply. >> right. >> 24 hours later right used to be like if. you just did it it came so I started. spamming emails in the white house. [laughter]. I called it the reign of toads. I I did. asky pictures of toads. Yeah. >> And I was raining toads on the white. house. >> and we were getting so many replies. back. So like it shut down both sides. >> of the connection. >> You did a D US attack on the White.

House. >> Yeah. Yeah. With. >> ASAR. I did with ASI [laughter] art. >> The reign of toad reign the reign of. toads. And um and then a reporter found. out about it and and he wrote about it. And then next thing you know, my phone. was just ringing off the hook. Because. this is not the case anymore, but back. then if you did a hack and it was a. white hat hack and you got away with it, you would get a job offer. [laughter]. >> Sure. Sure. >> Not anymore. >> No. >> Now you just go to jail.

>> Yes. >> And you're you're banned from corporate. life. But back then, people would call. you and say, "You know some things about. this stuff, and this is a dark art that. nobody knows about yet.". >> Yeah. Now, now they ban you from the. country. >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Now they send you. away. >> Mhm. >> Uh or put you in jail. >> Yeah. >> But back then, I got a phone call from. the Secret Service. [laughter]. >> I was going to ask. >> Yeah. I was very nervous on that phone. call. >> What's with the toads?

>> What's with the toads, man? And you're. not going to do that again, are you? Like I was just testing to see if you. put on the auto reply 24-hour pause. you. know, was just, you know, making sure. you're secure. Um, and then they, you. know, like they left me alone after. that, but but I the job offer started. pouring in. >> Is this before Robert Anton Wilson comes. into your life or. >> Oh, no, no, no. This is. way after. >> Can we talk about him a little bit? >> Yeah, you roll that back. >> Okay.

So before this happened, I'm still in. Chicago. and I was in a band like everybody my. age. And. >> is this when you went by Sid with a C? [laughter]. [gasps]. >> Yeah. Yeah, something like that. >> Go ahead and tell them why it's a C, Joseph. >> Sid Vicious. Sid Bennett. >> Sid Barrett. >> S Barrett. >> Yeah. >> But the C. >> Yeah. Um,

I was known at the time for doing a. certain drug [laughter] on a regular. basis. >> heroically. >> Uh, before before Terrence coined that. term, I was a heroic doser. Um, I was a. a big fan of Jim Morrison. Did I mention. that? Um, so yes, um, I was I was one of. those people and um, I was always. talking about weird stuff, you know, because I was a weird kid. And my guitar. player, who was weird himself, but, you. know,

not as weird, I guess, but he loved me. because I was I could introduce him to. weird things he hadn't heard of, but he. introduced me to a lot of music. So, there we go. Um, and one day he just. looked at me, he's like, "Have you read. Illuminati trilogy?" I'm like, "No.". >> Just out of the blue he says that. Yeah. Okay. >> Cuz cuz I was talking cool because I've. been doing Sid and [laughter]. >> talking weird things and he was like, "Have you read Illuminati?" I'm like, "No, I haven't even heard of it. What. was that?" So, you should read it, man.

You should read it. You're in it. I'm. like, "Okay." So, I went to the library. and went looking for it and of course it. was gone. um probably stolen, but I did. find another book by the same author. called Cosmic Trigger. >> Mhm. >> And then I read it and blew my mind. again. >> What was it about Cosmic Trigger? >> Oh, it was just like everything he was. talking about was everything I was. thinking about. [laughter] It was just. like like we made a connection, you. know, and he introduced me all this new.

thinking, these new ways of thinking, new writers I never heard of. Like it. was like a it was like an off-ramp. Well, in cosmic triggers, Robert Anton. Wilson, this is about recognizing signs. throughout history and. >> synchronicity. >> Synchronicity. >> Um, it was about um. model agnosticism. Y. >> you know, like the whole idea of like. basically what you learn in theater, >> which is suspension of disbelief. >> Mh. >> It's the same thing, right? Only he had. a mathematical scientific background for.

it. You like he had fancy words to put. around it. I'm like, well, I know that. Yeah. I loved how he talked about. meteors as being a meteor could be a. sign of something good or something bad. Yeah. Or something good or something bad. can happen. And if the meteor just. happens to be there Yeah. Yeah. >> that's now a cosmic trigger. >> That's a cosmic trigger. >> He was playing around with um the. serious stuff that was going on. He was. just he was he basically did like a. whole exercise in suspension of. disbelief for this whole period of his. life. And he cataloged it and he and he.

published it as a book, right? and and. and introduced me to all kinds of new. ideas. And one of those ideas was Philip. K. Dick, who I had not heard of. >> You hadn't? >> I didn't know. I I didn't know he wrote. Bladerunner at the time. Right. >> Right. But I had seen Bladerunner. I'm. like, "Ah, this is great film, you know, but I didn't know. I didn't know at that. time.". >> And so like but like I read about Bob. talking about you got to read this book, Philip K. Dick Val. So anyway, >> and then well then that's that then.

>> we'll lead to that. So So I look I'm. going to buy more books by by him and I. saw a poster on the wall of the at the. time new age was a new thing. This was. the 80s at the New Age bookstore and. they had books by him on on the shelf. and. >> by RAW R. Okay. And and there was a. poster on the wall that he was appearing. just down the street from where I was. living. >> at a Zen Center. >> No Yeah. Chicago still.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. So, we got to go there. >> Lakefront. Yeah. So, I I got to go. there. So, I show up early and I was a. smoker at the time and and I show up and. I'm standing out front smoking a. cigarette at the Zen Center [laughter]. and this, you know, squat little. Irishman comes out and says, "Hey, can. you give me one of those?" Like, okay. Like, I'm Bob, by the way. I'm like, "You think Robert Anton Wilson?" Because. I didn't know what he looked like. >> No. >> He's like, "Yeah, yeah." He's like, "I'm. doing this thing here." I'm like, "Yeah, I came to see you. We're smoking." He's.

like, "Don't tell my wife you saw me. smoking [laughter] cuz Arlin got on his. on his back for smoking." Um, but yeah, we shared a cigarette and we we stood. out there for. >> Well, what's going on in your mind? You. like Bob Wilson just bumped a cigarette. off me. You're not You're not freaking. out? >> No. >> Okay. >> No, I was like, "Oh, cooly smokes.". >> Not amazed. [laughter]. Okay. >> You know, go with it. Um, and uh, we. just talked about some stuff and Timothy. Liry had just come out with Mind Mirror. on DOSs at the time and I told him like.

it's pretty cool, but you know, you. could use some of this and some of that, you know, and he's like, "Well, do you. write code?" I'm like, "Not yet. I'm. thinking about it." He's like, "Well, then write code and do it yourself." I'm. like, "Yeah, good idea.". >> So, um, we hit it off. U, we we swapped. addresses. He was in Los Angeles at the. time. And um and then you know like we. we traded letters and things like that. every once in a while but you know and. then later a couple years later I moved.

to Santa Cruz completely by accident. Do. you know this story? >> This is with your girlfriend and and. Anubis. >> Yeah. Yeah. My cat. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um. >> tell I know the story but people don't. >> But I love I love Anubis. Perfect name. for black cat. >> Yeah. We have to get there. So, okay. So, Cosmic Trigger triggered me to find. Val. >> To find Val? >> It was out of print at the time. >> Oh. To find the book. >> The book. >> You couldn't find that book.

>> It was out of print. >> Wow. Okay. >> This was 84 five. >> Yeah. >> It was out of print. >> And it was not a popular book then? >> No. >> Phil was not popular then. Like he wrote. Bladeunner, but that was it. Like none. of his stuff is getting made into movies. yet. >> Were you aware of Jacques Valet at this. point yet? I was because I read Passport. to Meonia when I was young and I went. >> Yes. Right in my veins. >> Yeah. It's like this this. >> I mean I've heard PKD or people around. him say that Val was a synchronicity.

with Jacques's name. >> Well, apparently it was for me too. because I I just I don't know why it got. in my head like I have to find this. book. I have to find this book. It. became like an obsession and I started. to there was no internet at the time. So. like you know this is 84. I'm going to. used bookstores. I'm asking people they. never heard of it, >> right? >> And I'm like can I go through your can I. go through your boxes? Like I'm just. like. >> like being an a nugnik annoying.

>> And people are like okay whatever, dude. Go look for your your cosmic thing. Um. and so eventually I did find it in a. very weird circumstance. Um, I I was going through the yellow. pages and just looking for used. bookstores because I'd run out of the. ones I knew. And I called this one used. bookstore and this lady answered and she. said, "Yes, I I I think I might have. that." I said, "Well, there supposedly. it's a trilogy. There's like She's like, "I think I have two of them." So, I walk.

not too far from where I lived. I walk. over or no, I took the bus and then I. walked from the bus stop and this didn't. look like a bookstore. It was like it. was it looked like it might have been a. storefront at one time, but it was like. the windows were newspapered over. And I knocked in the door and this. really nice old lady with silver hair. and crystal blue eyes. You know those. people that have those blue eyes and. just like can't stop looking at them. >> I think you described her as Elvish. >> Yeah. She was short and.

>> and I looked at her. I'm like, "Wow, okay. You're you've got an aura lady.". Um, and she like took me and all the bo. books were in boxes. Nothing was there. was no shelves. It's like she shut the. thing down. You know, I'm thinking, okay, maybe she's going out of business. or maybe she never was in business. And. she like walked me over to a box and she. like pulled out Val. She said, you know, I've got this one. And then she pulled out another copy of. Alice. She says, but I have this one. It.

was a hard copy. >> Oh. But I was a poor ass little punk rocker. at the time. And take the hard counting. my quarters. >> And so I I I. and so I like to take the paperback, you. know, and I took the paperback and then. I walked immediately I I was like, "Oh, buyer's remorse." But, you know, did. what I had to do. And then when I got. home, I'm like, "You should have bought. that hardback, dude. You should have. bought that hardback.".

>> And I called her and called her and. called her. She never answered again. And so I walked over there and I banged. on the door to see if she could hear me. and it was a it was a storefront. In. Chicago they have these a storefront and. then a house. >> above it. >> And it was a railing with a porch and. the guy like this guy like walks out the. thing then. >> he had even had the suspenders. [laughter]. if you remember. There was a uniform. that they all wore. >> and he leans over the the the rail. He's.

like, "What do you want?" Like, "Well, the lady sold me a book and I wanted to. get the other book. I didn't." He's. like, "What do you What are you doing? What are you talking about? Get out of. here. It's not been a store for a long. time. Just leave." He was like angry. >> It's not been a store. >> Yeah. For a long time. >> For a long time. >> Yeah. >> What's that about? >> I don't know. And And he's being real. rude to me. He's like, "Get out of. here." Like like, you know, like I was. ruining his day. And I'm thinking.

maybe his mom, because she looks about. right to be the age to his mom, maybe. his mom sold me the book and wasn't. supposed to or I don't know. He was like. just he just wanted me away from from. his house. And so I left and I just kept going back. and calling. Never ever ever got anybody. answered the phone or the door ever. again. Was that a Do you think that was. a supernatural experience or just a. weird circumstance?

>> I think it was a weird circumstance that. that fits well as a as a supernatural. experience. >> I mean, it reads well. It's kind of. >> It reads Well, yeah. You know, and it. doesn't have to be supernatural to be. supernatural. >> That's That's well said. Yeah. >> She could have like been in the store. when I called and picked up the phone. when I called. She probably didn't run. the store any the store did not look. like it was in business and knew that. she had the book I was looking for. She. may have even had dementia. I don't. know, you know. And the reason dude was.

mad because he didn't know. >> this is so unlikely. >> He didn't know mom had let me into the. house, you know. And you know, back then. I used to dress like a punk rocker. So I. did not look like uh yepy friendly at. all. >> So he was like, "Get this guy. this. guy's probably going to break into my. house, you know, get get away. So, um, so anyway, I I get that. I get get Val. and it just absolutely melts my brain. Melt melted me down. Like I I admit I.

probably was having a manic episode. It. really did something to me. Like really. touched me hard. And. >> what was the theme in Val that that. spoke to you? I couldn't point to any one thing. >> The omniscience of the of it that. >> No, no, it wasn't that. It was that um. at the same time that I found the book, I found a used copy.

of the interview I think Rickman did. with Philip K. Dick and he published. like three books of of the interview. And so I read that while I was reading. Val. and then I realized this was a true. story. >> This really happened to this guy. >> Yep. But it did. It did. It he said it. did. >> Yeah. >> Have you ever seen him give that talk in. Mets in 77? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> He said he said all this stuff is I. write about real stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The Nazis did win the war, just not in. this timeline. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. >> Everybody thought he was nuts.

>> I I love watching the audience during. the time. They thought that he was just. going to talk about sci-fi. It's a bit. >> No. >> Like half of them like, "Oh, he's doing. a bit." And the other half like, "I. think he's lost his mind, >> right? [laughter]. This is all a simulation." 77. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, of course, this is mindblowing in. 84. >> And this melts my mind. This melts my. mind. And then. all this stuff like I started seeing. signs, you know, like. >> every like like Bob Wilson said um in.

Cosmic Trigger, he said uh he was. playing barbarian TV where he would flip. the channels and then he would get. sentences. Yes. >> He's like I'm like Phil K dick the. TV's talking to me. So So you. know like he he would do that and. >> Delclo had something called a one-word. story. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That was Varian TV. >> Yeah. Yeah. And um and so I started. having this these experiences that I. couldn't turn off [laughter] and and um. I was like what what's going on, you. know? And so I started getting.

um I was I was buying weird pamphlets, [snorts] any weird pamphlet I get my. hands on. And so I got this weird. magazine that was being published out of. Berkeley called Mondo or at the time it. was called um. High Frontiers. on it was a Xerox Art and I found out. about them through Xerox art stuff and I. I sent away and I got the pamphlet and. it was all this stuff of Philip K. Dick. and Robert Anton Wilson. I was like what. is this you know it was like it became.

on 2000. It was this whole culture. >> that eventually became the internet. >> Yes. I mean, they really did. They were. wired before wired. >> That's right. >> And they knew the wired people, actually. So, um, so I'm like having all. these things pop up like Berkeley, California, B, North, East Bay, Bay. Area, California. Like, like in my face, like everywhere I was looking, it was. like Bay Area, California. And I knew. nothing about the Bay Area in. California, you know?

And then one day, I just like told my. girlfriend, I'm like, "Let's move to. California." I mean, really, let's just. pack up and go. Like, what's stopping. us? And she was just crazy enough that she. said, "Yes." [laughter]. She's like, "Yeah, yeah, let's go.". >> Okay. >> So, we did. We literally just like had a. garage sale, paired down all the big. stuff, put all the stuff that would fit. in the car, the cat, and us, and off we. got a car tub carrier, and off we went. And u.

>> Did you have a destination in mind? >> Yes, Berkeley. So, you were heading to. Berkeley. >> So, >> but. >> on our way. >> Yep. >> I'm telling her, I want to go through. LA. So, we're going to We took Route 66. from Chicago to LA. He retraced Route 66. >> Yep. >> And I said, I'm going to show you some. things cuz I'd been to LA and I'd. hitchhiked up Highway One time um in. early 80s when I was in college on a. summer I'd spent in California.

And I said, I'm going to take you and. show you all these things that I know. Like, we're gonna go through LA. I'm. going to show all the Jim Morrison. places I know. You know, Love Street and. the weird store. And I I know all these. places. I'm going to show you. I know. where studio was. We're going to stay at. the al was it alt what the hell was that. thing? The the the u I've stayed there a. couple times. I can't think of the name. It was it was a motel that was across. the street from their studio where he. lived. and his room like you can rent.

>> Where who lived? >> Jim Morrison. >> Oh, okay. >> He lived in this room, Del, the Alta. something. Um, it was it was on uh. Lasiaga. and uh so I showed her all the spots in. LA and then we drove up Highway One. I'm. like, you're going to love this. By the. way, we got to stop at the Henry Miller. Museum in Big Su. So, we did. >> and then I'm going to show you the cabin. because it was still there where. Carowick wrote Big Su. >> Yes. >> You could still hike up back there. It. was still there. It's It's like a Airbnb.

or something now, but uh it's not a. cabin anymore. >> Beautiful up there. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, we hiked up, saw the. cabin, and then on our way to Berkeley, we pulled over to get gas and coffee at. this town I'd never heard of before. called Santa Cruz. And I said, "Hm, this is cool." And we. went to uh a cafe because they had a. picture of J.R. Bob Dobs on the on the. front of it. And you just like that. >> that must be friendly. Y it's a sub.

genius. >> One of us. >> One of us. >> And so we went in and then there was a. crazy person sitting at the table. >> who told me all the reasons I didn't. want to go to Berkeley, man. Cuz. Berkeley's done. We're all here now, man. In Santa Cruz, man. And this guy. turned out to be right. He like took me, walked me around, and it was just. happening. This is before the. earthquake. It was a crazy town. like. jugglers and fire breathers downtown and. like it was awesome, you know, like,

"Yeah, let's try this. Let's try this.". So, we just stayed there and I moved. into a place upstairs. and the lady downstairs, I saw her doing. um Taichi in her garden one day and so I. yelled over the rail and said, "Hey, I'm. your neighbor. I just moved here." And I. went downstairs and I met her and she. turned out to be Nina Ger Boy who was. Timothy Larry's secretary from Milbrook. >> Mh. >> And then upstairs was Bob 40 who was. like friends with uh Gordon Wson and he.

was friends with everybody. and like I'm like whoa how did this. happen? >> And you knew all these names. >> I knew all the names but I didn't know. these people. I didn't even know where. they existed. And so they're like, "Oh, yeah. We know this and this." And it's. like, "Oh, cool." And I was still. talking to Bob. He was in LA. And then. I'm talking to Nina one day, your boy. And she said, "Well, you know, Bob,". she's like, "I know Bob." And she's. like, "Bob's moving here cuz his kids.

are here." I'm like, "What? He's moving to Santa Cruz? His kids are. in Santa Cruz?" She said, "Yeah, they. all live here." I'm like, >> synchronicities. >> Okay. I I was supposed to end up here. Yes. This is what's supposed to happen. >> You know, >> um I was not supposed to go to Berkeley. >> Nope. >> I was supposed to hit where I hit in the. middle of between LA and Berkeley. This. place called Santa Cruz, which I had. never heard of. Turned out to be the. place I needed to be. >> Yep. >> Met all these people I needed to meet.

right there. >> And Bob was on his way. >> And Bob was on his way, which was weird. >> Yep. >> So that's the Bob story. And that's the. Phil story because as I often say what. pushed me onto that trip, that weird. trip was Philip K. Dick and Val which. was started by Bob. >> his book like and I don't know why that. stuck. It's like Val I didn't I knew. nothing about it. What it was about. nothing other than Bob said it was weird. and it must really be weird because I'm.

reading this book and it's really weird, you know? So, I wanted to I really. wanted to know what that was about. And. um it was a virus. It really was. I read. that I read Val and it just absolutely. threw me for a loop. But I don't mean in. a bad way. I mean, I tell people this a. lot of times and some people understand. it, some don't, but um. a breakthrough is necessarily.

preceded by a breakdown. You have to break down before you can. break through. >> Sure. >> Right. And I needed a breakdown at the. time. Like I was a little too rigid in. some things. I was going to stay in. Chicago forever. I was going to be a. punk rock musician. None of that. happened. None of it was what was. supposed to happen. Like I was supposed. to go do this other thing. And I saw. something shining. in the Bay Area, which I did end up in. the Bay Area, the larger Bay Area. Yeah. Yeah, >> cuz 90 miles south of San Francisco is.

Santa Cruz. And most of the people that. used to live in San Francisco had moved. to Santa Cruz. The people I wanted to. know, they'd all like, "Oh, the city's. getting too big. We're going to migrate. Let's go to the country." Santa Cruz is. basically the country. It's a little. surf town. And so I saw something shining in the. distance. when I was hearing all this stuff about. the Bay Area of San Francisco. Like. there's something going on there.

There's something you need to be a part. of. Also didn't know this was going to. happen, but boom, the dot thing. happened. Right. >> Right. >> A lot of the people that worked at Apple. and ended up working other places, we. were we all came from Santa Cruz. SEAC. SEO was there. Borland was there. There. was all this stuff going on in Santa. Cruz that was techoriented and a lot of. the really edgy Jared Laneir was there. at the time. He was a street musician. He wasn't doing virtual reality yet. He.

was like playing weird African street. music street instruments on this on the. street, >> you know, with his dreads and like. looked like he always looked. Um, but. there was all this stuff going on. Dan. Mapes was there. It was all these people. that you would know now but you didn't. know then. There were just people. hanging out in this collective weird. area of people doing raves and drugs and. computers is what we were doing. That's. what we were doing. >> Um and just coming up with weird ideas.

and and you know um friends of the. McKenna were there. Um I I met Dennis a. couple times. Never met Terrence but I. met Dennis a couple times. He was. actually in my building hanging out so I. hung out with him. Um there so all these. people Tim Larry used to stop by our. building because Nina was there whenever. he was coming through town. He I'd walk. downstairs. Oh. Oh Tim Larry. Okay. >> Crazy. >> Yeah. Bob was always over there once he. moved. Like it was this weird little. apartment building. 3212nd Street. It's. still there. Looks like a ship. It's.

like all the doors have port holes. [laughter]. >> Is this when you started working for Bob. or with Bob? >> Yeah. Yeah. So um he moved to to Santa. Cruz. Of course, he got a lot of um uh. um opportunities to speak in the Bay. Area. He did not drive. Um I asked him I. asked him why. He told me and then I. found out later why. I asked him why you. don't why don't you drive? You have a. car. He's like Salvador Dolly didn't.

drive. I'm like good enough. >> That was his that was it. >> That was his [laughter] answer. >> Bob Wilson. >> Robert Anton Wilson. What do you do? And. that was a good enough [laughter] answer. for me. Okay. But as it turned out, what I found. out was um he had polio when he was a. kid. >> Yes. >> And as you know, these um people that. got over polio when they were a kid have. a relapse when they're older most of the. time. And he did. So it was hard for him. to press the pedals. And. >> sure, >> he couldn't be sure he would be able to.

push the brake and hold the brake. And. so he needed somebody to drive him. So I. became the driver. >> Did you go to his funeral in 2007? You. didn't? >> No. No, I didn't get to. I was in Santa. Barbara at the time and actually the at. the point that I found out that he had. passed, I was actually out of the. country. >> So, and that made me sad, >> I'm sure. >> But I did visit, you know, afterwards. >> Okay. So, you're driving you're driving. driving Bob and I guess we're getting Is. this when he starts teaching you about.

Operation Mind. >> Yeah. So, we So, we've we're in the car. together. >> a lot. >> A lot with a lot of time. Yes. you know, I'm driving, he's riding, you know, and. um he would tell me he would regail me. with stories. I would regail him with my. crazy ideas, and he would tell me uh. that my ideas were probably not as crazy. as I thought they were. >> Did you know how lucky you were to just. be hanging out with this guy? >> No, I was just riding the wave, man. >> Oh boy. >> I didn't want to like think about the.

moment cuz like, you know, if you think. about the moment, the moment is gone. >> That's true. I'm like, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna. >> That's the bath, you know. >> Don't think too hard. >> Yeah, don't think too hard about this. >> No, but I'm I'm jealous of the story. >> So, it was So, we got to swap a lot of. ideas. Um, at the time, um, he had just. written a book which is reissued. um his. daughter started a press to reissue all. his books and um they asked me to write.

the forward to that book which is out. now. It's called Reality is what you can. get away with. >> Um okay, I have to grab that. >> It's a screenplay. Um it at the time we. were trying to get that made into an. independent film. We didn't that didn't. happen, but we we got close. And he was. telling me all kinds of stories about he. wanted to be a director, which most. people are always surprised when I tell. him that, but he did. His favorite uh. his idol was Orson Wells.

>> Interesting. >> And Ed Wood. [laughter]. >> Interesting. >> And at the time, Ed Wood has was not did. not have the resurgence that he's had at. that time. People like Bob and I loved. Ed Wood. >> Sure. But most people didn't know who Ed. was because. >> What was it about Edwood that attracted. you guys? [laughter]. [gasps]. >> The fact that he. didn't let lack of talent stop him at. all. [laughter].

Not one minute did he stop. Did he even. pause? >> All right. You have to you have to tell. us who Edward does then. >> Edwood taking a swipe out of him. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't a swipe. Um. No. The tenacity, man. Come on. >> That's it. He wouldn't disagree. >> It was beautiful. It was beautiful. >> I'm not going to let this stop me, right? Yes. Yeah. >> Um Edward was a guy who made films, how would you say? Um psychotronic. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Psychotronic films. And if you.

watch the films, um there's moments where it's so clear. that it's it's been a it's a disaster. It's happening [laughter] on set. >> Yes. It's so Oh, >> and he doesn't stop rolling. and he doesn't edit. Just like that was. cut print. Perfect. Move on. You know, >> great night is gummies and Ed Wood. movies, man. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, if if you don't know um. if people often ask me, I haven't seen. that wood film. I'm like, you know,

everybody has Plan Night from Outer. Space is the one that they recommend. >> Mhm. >> I said, okay, that's good. If you want. to get into the into the weas, if you. want to deep cut at wood, watch orgy of. the dead. >> I don't think I've seen that. >> color. >> What? >> His first color film. >> Oh, I'm going to check that out this. weekend. >> He hired strippers. >> Of course he did. as the a as the. actors. It all takes place in a in a. graveyard with. >> the the only people the only actors are.

strippers and Kriswell [laughter]. >> or the dead and it's on the list. >> Two two moments from that are my. favorite moments in film. The first one. is. he's he's there's this thing going on. where he's like telling these people to. throw gold coins while this dancer is. dancing her dance and he goes throw more. gold and you hear them hel hitting her. and clearly they're spray painted poker. chips. [laughter].

You can tell like ting I know that's a. poker chip. I know what that is. Not a. good poker chip, but a cheap poker chip. that you bought at the drugstore. Not. not like when you'd get it at a casino, you know, >> play VFX on on display again. >> Yeah. Um the other thing that that he. did in uh Orgy of the Dead, which. another fine moment in film is there's a. scene where the two the two main actors. who are like the ones drawn into this.

horror story um is a man and a woman. driving a car. It was a convertible. and. they're going down the road and the guy. goes, "I can't see. It's too dark." And. next cut is a shot of him in the car. driving in broad daylight, [laughter]. desert sun, broad daylight, high noon. And then cut back to the dark. I can't. see. It's so dark. [laughter]. >> It's never explained. >> Never explained. Never explained.

>> So that's that's it. Wood. Yeah. So. Orson Wells was interesting because uh. it's kind of a mini ARG sort of. >> F is for fake. >> Yeah. Spontaneously. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, Bob and. I traded movies. So he turned me on to F. is for Fake. I turned him on to Soft. Cell Portrait. >> Okay. >> Which he had not seen, which was the. Salvador Dolly thing that Orso Wells. did. And then he turned me on to um he. turned me on to he liked all the weird. stuff that Wells did after he left.

Hollywood. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, uh, the trial. >> Yeah. >> Like all that stuff he did, uh, the. black and white stuff. Y, like low. budget, but good stuff. >> The chubby wells. >> The chubby wells. But some good stuff. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. F is for fake is fantastic. >> Um, >> so we would and then then he didn't know. that the soft cell portrait like he did. a whole thing like Silver Dolly was. painting the sky. He's like, what? So he. had to go see that. Um, so yeah, we. would we would trade Orson Well stories. Um and uh and he turned me on to.

apparently clearly not apparently. clearly he knew much more about things. than I knew. And so I would give him one. thing, he'd give me 10 things. >> Sure. >> So it was like riding around with him. was like getting homework, you know, like then I' I'd come back from driving. him and I'd have like this list of got. to get this stuff now, you know? It's. like. >> Did you know he was a mentor for you at. the time? >> Did I know what? >> That he was your mentor.

Um, [sighs]. >> you were like, "This guy's my Yoda.". >> He was mentor before before I met him. Um, because I like like I said, when I. read Cosmic Trigger, I finally got a. copy of Illuminatus. and then I I read everything he wrote, you know? I was like clearly [snorts]. my Yoda, you know, >> maybe before Yoda, but he was my Yoda. >> Yeah. Um, and then when I. fell into the situation where I was. living in the same city as him and a.

building full of people that he knew and. and then and then he he asked Niger Boy, he's like cuz I drove her around. She. was older and she had published her book. one foot in the future and she couldn't. drive either because she had vision. problems. So I drove her around and then. he asked her he's like, "Do you have. anybody that can drive that drives drive. me around?" And he was like, "Joe, he's. a great driver.". >> Joe's the weirdo driver. >> He's the weirdo driver. So like, and.

Bob's like, "Oh, yeah. I like him.". Yeah. Yeah. So then I was his driver. >> and you're just drinking it up. >> Oh, yeah. I'm just like, I'm just riding. it out. >> Before we go to our first break, >> no pun intended. [laughter]. >> Before we go to our first break, can you. take us to uh through the eelin story? >> Yeah. So he. >> Unless there's something in between. >> No, no, no. That's about the same time. Okay. >> So, and I was driving him. So, he asked. me, he's like, um, I've got this weekend. at Eselin that I booked and I wanted.

>> and is this. >> hippie retreat. All the Project Stargate. guys are going put off there. >> Oh, yeah. Everybody Everybody it's it's. kind of like [laughter] the home base. >> Yeah. >> For for all the weird stuff. >> Ingo Swan's hanging out. Jacqu's. Everybody's there. So you go to you go. to Esin. You see these people. They're. just hanging out. >> Esin is big su. It's on a cliff. It's. overlooking the Monterey Bay. Um on on. the uh in the cliffsides there's natural.

hot springs that come out of the cliffs. and they've carved hot tubs. So like all. this hot tub um bureaucracy happens at. Essin. Like all these hippie people are. like tripping and sitting in hot tubs. and thinking about the next great. project, you know. >> Amazing. >> So um. >> Jeffrey Michionlo was just in here. telling Elin stories. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. Uh just the great stories. >> The Elin stories are amazing. >> I could tell you some stories. But. anyway, so Bob asked me, he's like,

"Would you want to go to to Eselin and. spend the weekend and um drive me and. then help me do this thing? I've got. this idea, but I don't It's like I have. this idea. I want to do this thing. I I. want something to happen. I want it to. be an experience for these people that. come to see me for the weekend.". And I said, "I've got an idea. Have you. heard of a LAR?". He's like, "Uh, yeah. Yeah, I I think. I've heard about that." like, "Yeah, let's do an Illuminati larp.".

>> An Illuminati larp. I And I didn't know. >> You're just the guy to do it. >> Yes, [laughter] of course. He's He's where it all came from. >> Yeah. And so he said, "Um, >> so what's LAR?" I didn't know the term. went back that far. >> Uh Yeah. Yeah. LARPs were going on then. Yeah. Um I think the the vampire LARs. were happening at that time. >> So people were people were laring. >> And was it stand. >> live action role playing game? >> Right. So Santa Cruz was LAR Central. because you have you have to remember. something.

Nerd things happen first in Santa Cruz. or at least they used to and then they. go to the rest of the world because UC. Santa Cruz is there. >> Yep. >> And the biggest congregation of nerds. I've ever met in my life was in Santa. Cruz in the 80s. And so uh there was all. kinds of laring going on. And so I never. lared but I I I observed it and I had. friends that lared. And so I would read. the books of like, hm, this is theater. of a sort and I can do something with. this, but I'm not going to go dress up. like a vampire on the streets of Santa.

Cruz and play LAR with you guys. Sorry. But I am going to look at it, you know, from afar and go, how can I use this in. the next theater piece because I want to. do the thing something that crosses the. precinium where the actors come off the. stage and become intermingled with the. audience and then you lose track of. who's who. Yeah, I've heard you tell. that story about the two bleachers. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You I mean, tell that real fast. >> That was at the the Kirk Douglas. >> Yes. This is essentially Tony and Tina's.

wedding a little bit. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um so you go to this thing. There's. >> this theater, >> which I didn't know what it was. Somebody somebody said there's a theater. piece you should go see. Yeah. >> Didn't didn't give me any information. >> Just kind of like, >> right, you know, you got to see this. >> theater pieces to see. So I go to I buy. tickets. I go to this thing and I'm. sitting and then I walk into there's no. stage. There's two bleachers facing each. other like the like the um portable. bleachers that you have for events.

>> Yeah. >> And we're all just sitting there and. sitting there and sitting there and. sitting there and of course the longer. you sit there the people start making. smart remarks, you know, like what are. we going to sit here forever? I was like. and that started building up where. everybody was quite equipping this and. that and then the the actors that were. embedded which we didn't know were. masters of grabbing that and turning it. into dialogue and like before we knew it. we were in the midst of this thing that.

was happening and a story was being. told. >> When did you catch on? >> Um I started to catch on. They were. good. I started to catch on. halfway through. I'm like, first I was. like, something's going on here. >> and then like I started watching people. and then I I wasn't able to like say. that is definitely an actor. >> No, but a Chicago improv guy can sniff. it out. >> Yeah. Yeah. I there's something. something to miss here. >> Right. >> And then and then but then I was like I. think he's an actor, but that guy could.

have just improvd that because an improv. guy will also think, you know, I would. have improvd that. Right. and I improvd. into it. So like you like I wasn't one. of them. >> And they held they held character all. the way to the end. They didn't take a. bow. We all walked out together to the. front of the theater, caught our cabs. and Ubers and and and went home. That. was it. >> And that's it. >> Yeah, that was it. It was an event. >> What? Your mind was blown, right? >> I loved it. >> They got me. >> They got me. They got all of us.

>> All of us. >> And I'm not even sure who they is. >> Right. [gasps] What was the story about? Um, it was a story about a guy who was. trying to write a play. and and he was neglecting his family and. like it was like it's basically about. the writing of a play and how it ruined. this guy's family. >> I wonder if that's the same story they. did every time they did the show or if. it's different. >> I hope not. >> I hope probably not. >> I hope it was improvd every time. >> This is like the Harold. This is It's. amazing. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, this kind of it leads.

back to like what we were doing with. Bob. I was like, >> "Yes, >> we we can like if we do this right, people are not going to know who's who. I want to make sure nobody knows who's. who and like everybody's looking at. everybody else with suspicion. It's. going to be a real weekend with the. Illuminati, man." And and Bob loved. that, >> of course. >> He's like, "Go for it, dude." He's like. He's like, "You need me to play a part?". I'm like, "Yeah, you play Robert Wilson. [laughter]. and I play your assistant." And nobody's.

gonna know that I'm puppet mastering. this thing, >> right? >> Because I'm your assistant. I'm like I'm. I'm looking around like everybody else. >> And puppet master, that's the term of of. the game the gamer runner. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So basically I was the. gamer runner. >> But nobody ever suspected me. Nobody. ever suspected me till the very even. when it was over. Nobody ever suspected. me. >> How how did you integrate the game into. at the what was happening? >> Well, the weekend was um well, you know, you stay at.

>> Yep. And you have a little cottage or. like you stay in like a dormatory or. whatever how you however you do it. You. have different levels and um and Bob did. a lecture every night. So they showed up. and he would tell you something which. fit into the story or the story keyed. off of that from there and he would tell. you like you know one of his his thing. you know he do his stick. >> and um and so that's how it fit together. is like you were hanging out with Robert. Downtown Wilson for a weekend but the.

cool thing was because it was Eselin. even when he wasn't giving a lecture. like sitting at the in the chat hall or. whatever people would gather around and. you know tell me stories or let me tell. you my story like you like you know what. happens with people like Bob. >> and and so no everybody like became very. immersed in this thing and and then um. there was this game going on which they. knew about because we told them in the. beginning there's a game you're playing.

it now you were playing it before you. walked in here you'll be playing it when. you leave. >> that's and that's what you told them and. that's it. >> yeah yeah there's a couple of groups. wandering around that will try recruit. you. You should join them or maybe not. That's it. So, I went around recruiting. a couple of people. >> This is a this is crazy. >> So, I I like found people like off you. like when they were weren't with anybody. else and I walked to them and I had this.

little chit that I handed them and said, "You've just been assassinated.". And I would assassinate somebody. They. go, "This part of the game? It's not a. game, man. Come on. Come on. I take them. to a room and I put them through this. ritual where I resurrected them. >> Whoa. >> And I'm like, now you were a member of. my group. Except I was representing like. five groups. >> Sure. >> Yeah. Of course. >> You're game running. >> Illuminatus. That's right. >> Yeah. You never know who's on what side.

because they're on all sides. >> That's right. >> So then then like what's what's my. mission? I give them a mission. They're. like this guy and this guy and this guy. is part of is part of your group as. well. And sometimes they were and. sometimes they weren't. So they'd walk. up to somebody like part of your group, man, and this guy like, "What are you. talking about?" [laughter]. So like people are like just freaking. out. The beauty of the thing I think was. at the very end when he was doing the. last lecture, at the end of the last. lecture, I didn't know this was going to.

happen. One of the players. had kept the chit that I killed him. with. He walked up to Bob and put the. chit in his hand. And he's like, "You've. just been killed. You now a member of my. group.". And everybody stood up and cheered. >> That's amazing. >> He's the winner. [laughter]. >> That's amazing. How long did that game. last? All weekend. >> Three days. Yeah. Yeah. Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So, he killed Bob at. the end, [laughter]. which was amaz. I didn't see that.

coming. >> No. >> But I kept telling people like, you. know, like, "Take your own initiative. Take your own initiative. Think for. yourself. Question authority. take your. own initiative, you know, and he got it. He's like, "Oh, yeah. I could kill. somebody. I've got this chit that he. killed me with. I could kill somebody. with this chit. And who am I going to. get him, the leader?". >> Question to everybody, do your own. research. Um, this that's a good time to. take a break because that that stuff is. going to come up again. Be right back. So, hanging out with Bob Eelin on the.

weekends. What's your day job? I was. building. the injectors. for a atmospheric chem chemical vapor. deposition reactors. >> What? >> Which is the machine that was used to. make IC chips. So the silicon wafer goes down a belt. >> Yep. >> Two curtains of nitrogen come down. Um. poof dyorine, phosphine. Woof. Big flame.

You got a circuit board. >> Okay, that's cool. >> Yeah. So, the injectors are the these. units that like knew what chemicals to. to uh release and when to release and. how much and when to stop. And it was. like this really intricate. um device that was built. It was a. company that also did military hardware. >> How did you get from there to Emory and. patents? [laughter]. >> I mean, that seems like a little jump, a. leap.

>> Well, no. Um I went from there to to. working. in tech as doing relation relational. databases. >> At that time the first one that I. started working on was called FoxPro. >> It was a Microsoft product. >> I think it was acquired but it was a. Microsoft product. >> Um SQL had not made an appearance yet. but it was about to. Um. >> thank goodness for SQL. >> no [clears throat] doubt. Um, I was.

completely immersed in this idea of the. concept of a book. being something that was about to change. with the digital media. And at the time, the digital media was so new that when I. was talking about this thing, people. there was very few people that that knew. what I was talking about and didn't. think I was crazy. Um, and then. I met people like the Waro, John Waro. and his son Chris and other people like. that that like understood the lingo that.

I was spouting and they're like, "Oh. yeah, books, digital books, that's. that's going to be a thing.". >> You know, and I said, "Well, that. happens." The concept of a book changes. because it goes from being a physical. thing to being a unit of measure of. knowledge. Okay. >> Which it is. >> Absolutely. >> Now it is definitely in a database. >> Like this is a book. What does that. mean? It means it's an ever it could be. an everchanging series of words.

>> Yes. >> Also called large language model. >> Yes. [clears throat]. >> So I was playing with all these um. fringe concepts. >> You were building an LLM in the 90s. >> Yeah. Yep. using a relative rel. relational database um because that's. all we had. Um so and we didn't have a. lot of memory to pass around. There. wasn't a lot of processing power to pass. around. Definitely didn't have uh what. we have now which is you know using.

graphic chips because they do floating. points so well. >> Um we hadn't thought about that. They. did exist but we did didn't think about. that. Um so processing power was at a. premium, memory was at a premium, storage space was at a premium because. dispace was expensive and slow, unreliable. So all these things were at. a premium and so all the ideas I had. were not quite. ready to be implemented because the the.

the uh the infrastructure wasn't there, right? But I knew it was going to be. So. I was like you designing all these. things and I started working at places. like Adobe because when I talked about. ebooks. because remember I started talking about. this before eub existed. There was no. Kindle. I didn't even think there was an. Amazon. >> No. >> there but there was this thing called. portable document format. >> Yes. And um I realized that uh there was. all these things that was not being used.

for because it was a really rich format. Most people didn't know that you could. embed video and. >> trigger events and like all these things. you could do. So I started working at. Adobe simply because I wanted to work. with the technology that I thought was. going to be the first one out of the. gate for ebooks because I had a vision. for a book that would become much more. than a book because it could again what. like when I saw links. I was like it can reach out and touch.

other data and bring it back. >> Yes. >> So like this link can always change. because I can change it over here. So. this this data is always changing. So. it's a story that's never the same. twice. >> Sure. It's just a variable inside the. doc. >> Exactly. >> So you saw the PDF as a multimedia. device when. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Most people are. just using it for. >> John John used to call it a platform. which confused me at first but then when. I started working for him and like.

realized what was going on there I was. like oh he's right. >> because I that guy was amazing. I mean. one of the founders of Silicon Valley. and when I watched him write a program. in postcript one time I was like what. >> wow [laughter]. >> and and most people don't realize that. PDF was just shorthanded postcript. that's all it is. >> um and so when I when I looked at that. I'm like okay that's what I want to do I. want to build something and I'm going to. use this I know there will be other. things down the line but right now this.

is what we have and that's what I want. to build I want to build something with. this and so we're working at this. company, I will have the deepest look. into what this thing can do, what the. feature set is now, what it will be in. the future, could even drive the feature. set as a product manager, which I did. So that's everybody says why would you. go to job at Adobe? I'm like because. every tech job I've ever had has served. a ulterior motive is helping me achieve. something with an art project that I had.

in mind. >> Of course. >> Always. >> And was that the uh the Emir Emory. project? Yeah. Yeah. >> So, how did that work? >> So, [clears throat]. this is. um. I was I was working with. the concepts that were coming out of. places like MIT. Um there was a kid that. wrote I say kid, he was a kid at the. time, a kid that wrote this uh algorithm. called um.

I can't remember what it was called. Anyway, he wrote an algorithm for um. recommendation. which at that time was like, you know, nobody had ever heard such a thing, >> right? What is that? >> Yeah. And he did it for music. I think. um I think I. ended up using it. You remember the. early. pre. uh [clears throat]. Apple music scene? Um there was a it. came out of Santa Cruz. And so somebody. at Santa Cruz turned me on to this.

algorithm this guy had written which was. basically basian. It's like how can I. choose something and how can it learn. about what I like and make. recommendations to me. >> And you liked basian because that could. change over time. >> Exactly. It would it was it would it was. heristic. It could learn. >> Yes. [clears throat]. >> So. >> and now the biggest companies in the. world are based on that algorithm. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But at that. time it was. >> nobody knew. >> something a bunch of nerds in a basement. would talk about but that was about it. >> Right. We used Alta Vista.

>> Yeah. Exactly. [laughter]. >> Los. >> Hotbot. >> Mhm. [clears throat]. >> Um. so. I was looking at that and I was. thinking, you know, I would like a story that had access to. something like that. Ringo was the was. the was the algorithm. I finally I. finally remembered. >> um something like that and I could use. something like Ringo because he put it. in the open source space. I can take.

this. I can modify it. And if I have. this. algorithm between. a [clears throat] bunch of content. and the user and they go through the. algorithm, the algorithm can help a. story be told. and it's not the same story every time. So based on who you are and what you've. done and what you do, you will get a. story that is different than what I do. and what I've done. >> Yes. So I have a different story than.

you have, but it's all coming from the. same repository. >> Yep. >> Right. This big at the time wasn't Foxp. Pro, but it was like Fox Pro database. that I was using. It was just all this. stuff that I was, you know, there was. some. choosing that went on like, you know, it. was it was curated by me. So I didn't. just put everything in there like I. chose things to put in there. It's like, you know, uh, Valvalarian, sure, goes. in. Commander X, absolutely. You know,

like all the weird stuff. >> Yeah. >> Church of Subinius, yeah, absolutely. Discordian, yes, goes in there. >> I just It's shoving this stuff in this. database. And then. >> this is all theories and philosophies. and stories. >> Yeah. >> That are interesting to you. Yeah. All. the All the subculture stuff. >> All the weird stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um. >> and this be and you're basically. training a model on the weird stuff. Exactly. Exactly. So, and and I had um a. pretty primitive chatbot interface.

between. um the the repository and and the user. >> So, the user was basically talking to a. chatbot. What what eventually became a. chatbot, I was working with early code. >> Yep. >> What became a chatbot? If you if this. sounds very familiar, a chatbot using an. algorithm to talk to a database. It's. called chat GBT. Sure. >> It's just much more refined than what I. was doing. >> Or Eliza. >> Or Eliza. Um, but you know, at the time,

again, I didn't have the processing. power. I was using an SGI Indie. [laughter] that had walked out the door. with me because it was going to get. thrown away. >> I love my Indie. I love the blue the. blue pizza box. >> Exactly. >> It's a great machine. So Oh, so that was. You were using my sequel on there, I. bet. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Nice. >> Yeah. Early. Yeah. Very early. >> So, um, so I'm doing this stuff, trying. to come up with a new way to tell a. story. And what what my biggest. influence was, and this might be weird.

to you, but William S. Burroughs and. Brian Gon did this thing called the. third mind experiments where they were. cutting up words and putting in a hat or. a box or whatever and pouring them out. and like, you know, piecing pasting them. together. >> So, can you explain what the cutup how. that works? The cutup method um came out. of Dada originally, >> which you know corresponded at the same. time that they were doing exquisite. corpse, but they were doing cut up poems.

and co-op cutup stories where you just. like would take text and cut it into. sentences or paragraphs or words and put. them all into like a bag or a box and. shake them up and then pour them out and. like put them together kind of like. those refrigerator magnets with the. words. >> Yeah. Um, and you would construct. stories in random. In other words, randomity was constructing the story or. at least it was giving you a direction. for a story. So, it was a way to get. influence. Um, Brian Enino does this.

kind of thing with his oblique. strategies. >> Yeah. >> Like just come up with something, you. know. >> Um, so. I was influenced by that. Um, and I. said, well, if I've got this database, what I which I've marked for. derivability with XML into areas of word. and you know like all the all the stuff. that goes with that, like it's a word. that's relational to these other words. for this reason. It's a sentence that's.

related to all these other sentences or. words in this kind of way. >> This is predictive inference as well. >> Exactly. um paragraphs, y pages, you know, basically like breaking down my units. and then it comes back to you back to. you and it and it's composed. at random because I put randomity into. it. It's a cutup, but it's not using paper and scissors. and bags. It's using a database full of.

words. >> This is this is crazy ahead of its time. >> Yeah. >> You didn't know that? You didn't know. you were building something? Well, I I I. had a I had a a friend, a Genesis. Poridge. >> Mhm. >> Who was friends with William Burroughs. who introduced me to William Burroughs. Never met Bill in person, but we had a. phone thing going on. And um because Jen. knew what I was doing and he said, "Oh, you should talk to William.". >> Yes, please. >> Yeah. I Oh, yeah.

>> Yeah. And uh so he put me in touch with. with Bill and I told Bill what I was. doing and you know that the way he talks. he said to me I don't absolutely. understand all the technical things. you're doing my boy but I seem you got. the sense of the project. [laughter]. >> You did? >> Yeah. And and I said what I'm doing is. I'm updating what you and Brian were. doing with modern technology. Were were. users accessing this yet or you were.

just talking? Okay. >> Just me. I was the user. >> So, we're not up to Ezekiel yet, are we? >> No. >> Okay. >> Primary user. [clears throat]. >> And and I started getting just like Bill. and Brian did. I started getting bizarre. weird things coming out of this machine. and it was like making weird sentences. So I showed to Nick Herbert, my friend. the physicist. >> who had done an experiment in Liverour. called the Metaphase typewriter, >> right? And they were just having a IBM.

Selectrics hooked up some random things. like just randomly typing and they. apparently were able to channel Houdini. >> Yes, >> I know. I know exactly what you're. talking about. >> Yeah, it's a great story. Metaphase. typewriter. You look it up. Um, so I. showed Nick. and he just like he Nick has this way of. laughing when he really likes something. He goes [laughter]. and he did that and I'm like, "So, I've. hit on something because Nick gave me. the snicker." [laughter].

Um, and so, um, he liked what I was. doing. Bill Burroughs liked what I was. doing. Jennis Peor liked what I was. doing. I liked what I was doing. >> What were you asking, Emory? And what. were the responses like? I was just. having random conversations. He was. like, "Um, well, what do you think of. what do you think of Valyrian?" And then. the weird because I was trying to see. what kind of answers am I going to get. Are they going to be coherent? Because. for a while they weren't. But as this. thing built up. um a backlog, it was building a log of.

good answers, which I was logging. This. was all manual. Like I wasn't able to. automate a lot of this. So like I would. get an answer and I would tag it in XML. Good answer, bad answer, you know, and I would just. sit there like all night. >> This is exactly how it works now. This. is training an AI exactly this way. It's. just automated. >> Just training this thing all by myself. And luckily I didn't have a database. like they do now. The the large language. models, one person couldn't do it.

>> Well, right. 27 billion parameters. >> You have to open up to. >> Right. >> But at the time, I was growing this. thing manually. So, I was manually. tagging. Um, >> are you obsessed with at with this. project? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Lost a. girlfriend over this. >> I [laughter] bet. I bet. Cuz you're. like, "That's that's a that's not a. verb. That's not a verb.". >> She would she would go to bed and wake. up and I'd still be in in my home. office. [laughter]. She's like, "Are you going to work. today?" Yeah. Is it time? Okay. Bye.

>> Just tagging words. >> Yeah. She literally got so mad at me one. time that she took a baseball bat to the. computer. >> No. >> Yeah. When I was in the shower, I like. taking a shower and I was going to go. [laughter] back. [gasps] and I come in and she's beating. the the machine to death and I'm like, >> "Not the Indie.". >> No, no, no, no, no. It was an old Mac SE. that I was using as an interface. >> I still have one of those. >> Yeah. Luckily, I had a um exterior drive.

and she didn't know what that was. >> [laughter]. >> So, she thought she was killing the. machine, right? >> She wasn't. [clears throat] She didn't. kill the heart. Um, or was it? Thanos. says, "You should have gone for the. head." [laughter]. >> Um, so she didn't go for the head. Um, so anyway, um, so I'm doing this and I. am staying up all night and I'm talking. to people at parties about what I'm. doing and these are tech people who are. just like, "Dude, you need to get out. more. Like, you need to you need what.

are you doing?" you know, is it time for. an intervention? I'm like, you just don't understand. You. don't understand. You don't understand. You understand? So, it's like the same. thing I had with Val. just got looped in. And I And I admit I. I' I've come to terms with it. I have a. little bit of OCD going on. >> You have to. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Now, I was in the early internet culture. in the 80s and 90s, and I would have. thought you were nuts. Like, what are. you doing? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Like, what what are you doing? What is. this for? >> Exactly. That's what most people were.

saying. >> And you're like, "It's I I got it. I got. it. It's good. I got it.". >> Right. >> You don't need to know. >> He's a mad scientist. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. >> In fact, um. >> but soon Emory starts to come to life. >> Well, I started getting coherent answers. like like that. I could read it and. understand what was being said. >> You're not And then you're not freaking. out yet. >> I was still I was still in in the zone. >> Okay. >> Right. You still felt like you were in. control?

>> No, >> you didn't. >> No. People People that I know that know. me well and see this will be like, "Yep, that's him.". >> Um, know that I don't get freaked out. when weird things are happening. >> No, >> I go with it. I just go with it. Right. And afterwards, when I think about it, I'll be like, "Oo, that was kind of. weird." But when I when in the moment I. maybe it's all the improv training. >> or the or the method acting. It's like I. fall into this thing and like this is.

who I am. This is what I'm doing, you. know? And plus I got a little OCD going. on. >> Sure. Only later you're like that was. probably a bad idea. >> Yeah. Exactly. [laughter]. It's like why did I do that? Why did I. let that happen? Um so you know being. neurode divergent though you know has. its benefits. during the clip, >> which is you just go with it sometimes. And sometimes you go what would be. called too far by some people and by me. just far enough. >> Like I wouldn't have got to where I was. with those experiments if I hadn't,

you know, obsessed. >> 100% agree. >> Yeah. I mean to the point where. when I finally put put this machine. together, we compiled everything and put. it on the indie. Um, finagled a. >> for the non- nerds, the Indie is SGI. It's a much more powerful machine than. >> at that time. Yeah. >> Probably from Adobe is probably maxed. out at 128 meg. >> Yeah. >> Nice. >> How do you even how do you do with all. that space?

>> You don't. except except Adobe to the rescue again. I put in a requisition. for a unit for for an IU um for a. machine on the Adobe network in the in. the in the data center. because they had pulled in dual DS3s as. a connection. >> Dual DS3s. Wow. >> At that time, >> right? So that. >> was fantastically fast. >> Sure. >> Basically two T3s,

>> right? >> Um. >> a T3 54 megabits. Yeah. >> So that's at that time that's. unbelievable. >> Blazingly fast. >> I was working on a T1. So 1.5 and and. it's like how could it get faster than. >> and that was the fastest ID had at that. point was a T1 or actually a fractional. T1. >> Fractional T. >> Yeah. >> So two DS3s. Yeah. Unbelievable. >> So I had a friend who had a ISP in San. Francisco. He let me see DSSE um a. fractional T3 AT MY HOUSE. >> WOW.

>> YEAH. YEAH. I had to like call the phone. company, walk them through what I wanted. them to do, be there when they did it. >> Wow. You had like a demark block in the. garage or something. >> Yeah. No, in in the basement. [laughter]. >> Holy. >> In the basement. >> Fractional tea in the basement. >> Yep. >> Okay. >> So, now I've got uh we we we moved from. um Mountain View to downtown San Jose. where we put in those three towers. We. were in the first tower because they.

built one at a time. We're in the first. tower. We got the dual DS3. So I said, and then and it's long enough. now that nobody's I'm not going to get. fired. [laughter]. I said, I bet I could requisition this. machine. into the data center, tell them it's for. something else, and let it run, and I. can do my experiments down there. Your. Indie goes back to. >> My Indie goes back to Adobe, goes into. the data center.

>> and it's marked as a marketing machine. >> I love it. >> Yeah. >> So they say, "Sure.". >> Okay. Yeah. Just sign off. >> You walk in there. Yeah. >> Pizza box under your arm. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Ethernet. >> Put it in. >> Green light. Here we go. >> Here we go. And then I, you know, put it. so I could access it from home. And away. we went. So I was like, "Okay, now I've. got a blazingly fast probably one of the. faster connections on the planet.". >> Yes. >> And I only I only work at night so I.

don't, you know, nobody notices what I'm. doing. I don't like cause any pinging. like so that the IT guys don't go, "What's going on over there?". >> Right? You're not bouncing around. Adobe's network. You're you just want to. >> I just want access to the internet. >> So what are you doing with Emory at that. point? >> So at Emery, I tell Emmery like here's a. profile of the things I want you to. gather off the internet. the types of. data I want you to find. >> Hold on. You So you tell Emory to start. scraping? >> Yep. Yep.

>> This is all 20 years ahead of its time, man. >> Yep. Go. Go get me what I want as much. as you can get me. And. >> so Gopher, >> FTP, Gopher, >> Gopher, >> Usenet, >> Usenet Scraping the News Group. >> HTTPS, HTTP, whatever. Just go get it. for me. Text whatever you can get me. Did you use that recommendation. algorithm to help it? >> Yes, you did. Of course. >> Go get me these things. >> Wow. >> And then put it in the database. And of. course, I had to manually look through.

it like because I it still wasn't there. still wasn't enough power to automate. all this kind of stuff. But I like. during the night in the middle of the. night, it would go out and it would. retrieve these things that I asked it to. retrieve. >> Imagine if you made a search engine out. of that. [laughter]. >> I did actually at one point. >> Well, you kind of did. No, I did did. make a public search engine just for a. while. >> Okay. >> Um, incandabula.org was a website that I. had forever. I still have um I had a. website up that was like the weird. website. >> Yep. >> And I built my own little search engine.

and people used it a lot, but it was. just too much to maintain. Um, but most. of that was like stuff I scraped during. this period of time. So, I scrape all. this stuff. I bring it back and I'm. building like this giant database. I'm. like, "God, I got to get my disc space.". You saw I be doing all these things and. again still obsessive still obsessing. and there was like some unseen. goal that I was trying to achieve like. there was there was like there was an. end point but I didn't know what it was. like I'll know it when I when I see it.

right. as this thing got bigger and it got. smarter and it started like having more. it started learning the the uh the rules. of grammar and English language it could. it could craft a pretty cool sentence. and like it felt like it was talking to. me. >> Yeah. Well, now it's scraping language. >> Yeah. >> And this is NLP before NLP was a thing. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> So, it was it was giving me things back, you know, I had to keep reminding.

myself. It's like it doesn't have. intelligence. It just knows how to mimic. it really well. >> It is not intelligent. It doesn't have. agency. I had to remind myself of this. because you'd be so tired in the middle. of the night and you'd ask it something. and it would tell you. You'd be like, "Oh, what? What? What?". >> No, you have to tell yourself that. >> Yeah, you have to remind yourself. And. >> bear that in mind if you're playing with. Chet GBT. >> Oh, yes. >> Um, but you know, >> would Emry pass a touring test at this. point? >> I think so. >> No. >> But that's not a I I found out that the.

touring test is not an easy thing or not. a hard thing to pass. >> No, it's not. >> Yeah. So. um. >> so what are you asking amory? >> So I just basically having. conversations. I I was initiating. conversations and asking opinions. What's your opinion on this? What's the. opinion on that? And it would start. going into these long diet tribes about. things that I like how do you know that? How how did you even know that? Like it. started telling me things.

again. We're in this weird space where. you start having synchronicities with. this data, >> which I think that's what it is. Um, I. don't think Emory knew. I don't think it. was psionic. and I don't think Emory was like. wandering the internet at night getting. data on me and finding out what I was up. to because at that time that it wasn't. that kind of stuff wasn't on the. internet. There was no social media. >> No, >> you couldn't know that I was going on. vacation tomorrow unless you knew me, you know, or you're reading my email.

But Emory knew things. >> Emory new things. >> Is this your cryptoaterrestrial. theory yet? >> Kind of. >> Okay. >> Um, >> so this is there's something else. >> But the weird the weird thing that. happened this this is this is where we. cross over to the weird weird. >> Mhm. >> Is I I have always worked with um the. houseless communities in my wherever I. live. Um, so people in my community who.

are houseless, as they prefer to be. called houseless. Um, I've always worked. with, you know, um, people that are are. functioning and living under nutritional. deficiencies. So I help with food. >> And in doing so, I run into some. interesting people. >> Sure. >> And at that time, I was living in Santa. Cruz. And in Santa Cruz, um, there was a. ex- monk that was a friend of mine who. started this thing called the Santa Cruz. Homeless Garden Project. Basically, you. grow your own food and you learn how to.

maintain food and you know, it gives you. pride. Um, gives you some agency, makes. you feel good about yourself and it. feeds you. >> Yep. >> Very important. >> Mhm. >> So, I was working a lot there and there. was a guy who wandered up to me at the. homeless garden project and introduced. himself. and said, "I know you. You're that guy. that writes about Inkinabula on the. internet." I'm like, Okay. I'm thinking he probably has a uh.

library access. >> Sure. >> You know, it's okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's me. Like, how'd you know that? He's like, well, I'm Emery. >> What? >> I'm like, Emry who? He's like, Emry. Cranston, the guy that wrote the Inkobul. catalog. I'm like, so now we get into. that moment where Joe does his what he. does, which is just go with the flow. Right. >> Right. You don't freak out. >> I don't freak out. I don't say, "Oh, you're crazy. You're lying." I was like, "Really? I've always wanted to meet you.

Nice to meet you. What are you doing here?". And we just start hanging out and. talking. >> It's not like because Emory is based is. just memory without the M. Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> He doesn't know that. >> Plus Dave Emory. >> Oh, right. Right. Right. >> Yeah. >> So, Emry Cranston, here he is. >> Dave Emory. [clears throat]. >> So, so he introduces himself. We start. hanging out. >> What are you talking about? anything. The guy was brilliant. So, [clears throat]. >> well, he was trained on the whole. internet, >> right? [laughter].

While I'm while I'm talking to him, we're hanging out at coffee houses and. stuff cuz he's he's houseless. >> Mhm. >> But I'd see him downtown and I'd buy him. coffee and, you know, sandwich or. whatever. And we'd hang out because I. like hanging out in coffee houses. I. still do. And um I was asking at the. garden, "Do you know this guy?" And. they're like, "Oh, Ezekiel." Like, well, he tells me his name is Emmery. Like, yeah, he changes his name from time to. time, but when he first came here, he. was the prophet Ezekiel. [laughter] Oh,

boy. Like, what's his story? He's like, he was a PhD student at UCSC and he had. a nervous breakdown. And now. he's living on SSI. He's on the street. He spends all his time at UCSC at the. library because he has because if you. were u a former student, you could have. library access. You could just buy your. library access. So I guess he they. either gifted it to him or he paid it,

but he had library access. I I saw him. up there eventually. I saw him up there. all the time just reading special. collections. Like the guy was brilliant. Like I could talk to him about anything. Like he he knew alchemy, hermetics, yung, you name it. Like. anything that was like weird, fringe, literary, psychological, occult, he knew. it like inside and out like more than. anybody I've ever met. >> Interesting that he was that he knew. Young talking about synchronicities.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So he was conversant in all. these things like highly conversant. Um, and as long as I didn't press in on. like where do you live, nothing. personal, you know, like just and just. treated him like Emory, like okay, Emry, you're Emmery. You say you're Emry, you're Emmery. We don't have to talk. about that anymore, right? And so we. just had these brilliant conversations. and I noticed what started happening was. I would be talking to the bot.

the Emory. >> Mhm. >> And then I would wrap it up and I would. go out to Cafe Perissi and there'd be. Emery and I'd buy him a cup of coffee or. chai tea and and uh we'd sit and talk. and it seemed like. was this my brain doing this? I don't. know. But it seemed like he knew what. I'd been talking to the bot about. because he would pick up the. conversation from where I had left off. with the bot and continue it.

So. >> you're still just going with it? >> Yeah. Do I have do I have a theory about. that? >> Number one, projection. >> Sure. >> That's me doing it. >> Okay, that's you're logical. Number two, if you want to get a little woo about. it, I had the scent of whatever I'd been. talking about on me [laughter] and he. was schizophrenic as I'd been told. >> and was able to sniff it off me because. I I've had interactions with people who. who are diagnosed schizophrenic and.

they're also. >> very psionic. It seems like like they. can do things like that. I've had weird. experiences with people where it's like. pick up on what you're thinking. Yeah, >> it seems. We'll say it seems. >> Everybody's had. >> because I'm a model agnostic. I can't. say it is, but it seems like that's. what's happening. >> Um, so something like that or something. in between there, you know. >> Um, so yeah. And so that was happening. and then and then I noticed I would talk. to him and then the bot would like seem.

to pick up the conversation. I'm like, "Okay, there's something weird going on. here." like I'm betw twix these two. entities that are having this unified. conversation with me. >> Did you ever test that theory with. specifics? >> Yeah. Um, one time and it was the the the response. was really weird. Um, I talked to I was. I went on vacation.

and I was with somebody specifically. that Emry didn't know because they lived. across the country. And I came back and. as soon as I sat down, I was going to. like throw some things at him and see. He didn't even wait for that. He's like, "That girl you were with?". >> What? I'm. >> like, "Yeah." He's like, "She's not good. for you. this way you guys fight. Which. was right. [laughter] He was right. He. didn't even know I had a girlfriend on.

the East Coast. I had never told him. I. never told anybody. It was like this. little secret thing I was doing on the. East Coast. I was like, you know, like. we'll keep it secret until it blossoms. into something or it doesn't. And it. didn't. But but somehow he knew I was. with and he said some I don't want to. give it away like for her but he said. some specific things that identified. that he knew who was who she was. >> And you never pressed him on how do you.

know that? >> No. >> What about when you go home and talk to. the other Emory? Did. >> are you comfortable asking that. questions. >> to the bot? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I got weird weird an like. still little nebulous but weird answers. like. >> what was it saying? >> It was saying things like you shouldn't. you shouldn't be with that woman. Things. like that. >> things that the other. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was almost the same. thing. So I mean there's a Did you ever. read the comic that I did the inky?

Okay. So the part where I see Emory in. the alley. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. That it was based on that. I. I it was like I did a spin-off on it, but it was based on that episode was. like I had this he would show up in the. weirdest places. So here here's where it. gets weird. So years later I left Santa. Cruz. I went to a place in the desert. and I worked as a um worked with Habitat. for Humanity and built some houses and I.

was in the middle of nowhere. I mean. nowhere. And we were building these houses in. this, you know, uh, border border. community basically. It was like not too. far off the Mexican border. And who shows up? But Emery. >> No way. >> He's hitchhiking and he shows up in town. and I run across him. He didn't come looking for me. I just. run across him and I'm like, [laughter].

"Dude, what's up, Emry?" He's like, "Oh, I'm not Emry. No, no, no, no. My name is. Terrence." like, "Okay, Terrence, McKenna, I don't know." Um, but. whatever. So, and we just again didn't. didn't miss a beat. I just Okay, you're. Terrence and we're hanging out. Never any mention. >> No. >> of Santa Cruz. None of that. >> So, this is a new personality now. >> New personality. So, but he was nice. And [laughter] um.

and then I saw him I saw him at the this. office that I knew was a social security. office. So he was probably checking on. his benefits or checking in or whatever. I had to do. >> And I talked to the I talked to a lady. there that I saw talking to him and I. said, "I know you can't tell me anything. because you know it's not ethical for. you to tell me anything, but I know that. person right there.". I said, "And he tells me his name is. Terrence. Is his name Terrence?". and she says.

his hold on reality can be a little. flexible at times, but his name is. Terrence. [laughter]. So that's his actual name. >> Did you ever catch up with him again? >> And then I caught up with him again. Two years later, I moved to I got done with the thing in. in the desert and I moved to Santa. Barbara, started working with the Santa. Barbara International Film Festival. And. one day walking down the street, lo and.

behold, who's there? >> Terrence. Ezekiel. >> Terrence. He's still Terrence. >> And I look at him and I said, "Are you. following me?". >> Of course. >> He goes, "When did you get here?" And I. said, "Uh, August." He's like, "I got. here in April. You're following me.". Good answer. And that was that. We started talking. again. And he was he basically was was. on this I guess there's this route. um on the one in the 101 between San.

Francisco Bay area and Southern. California. that houseless people follow with the. weather. So when it gets cold, they go. south just like a bird. >> Sure. >> And when it gets warm, they go north. just like a bird. So that's what he was. doing. >> It's weirder than that, man. >> I got I got that much out of him. I'm. like, "Well, what what the Santa. Barbara, man. Come on. Why are you. here?" He say, "There's a good place.

under the bridge. You can leave. You can. live there. Nobody bothers you." I'm. like, "Okay, but [laughter]. I mean that's an answer, but dude, come. on. Like, what are you doing here?" You. know? He's like, "Well, I always come. here. It's part of the route." I'm like, "The route? Oh, tell me about the. route." You know, so it he told me about. the route. He's like, he goes south, which was why he saw me in the desert. when it was winter, and then he goes to. Santa Barbara. >> Okay. >> Then he goes probably to San Louis. Bispo, and then he goes further north.

>> It's weirder than that, but okay. >> It's weirder than that, but at least. that's that's the. >> No, you have a razor. >> Right. [laughter]. Right. >> The easiest answer is he's on the route. Well, >> so we don't run out of time. How do we get to ANGs? Is there are there I wanted that story. Are there is there anything else before. we get to ANG's hat? >> No. >> Okay. >> That's that's when it starts. [clears throat]. >> Oh, that's when it starts. >> Yeah. >> So, it's like 88.

>> Yeah. >> Oh, okay. >> So, we're doing we're I mean we're. rolling back a little bit, but like it. starts in 88. >> Well, wrap up Emry at that point. Is is. Emry? >> That was Emry. That's the last time I. saw him. I have a picture of him sitting. on a bench in Santa Barbara. the box. >> Oh. Oh. Um, so. the box, um, I'm doing that and then I decide I. want to do an ebook, >> right? >> And nor chatbot.

>> No, no, I'm just still doing chatbot. Adobe. does a PDF library on adobe.com, which. at that time, this sounds like nothing. now, but at the time we were taking a. million hits a day, which I don't know. what the uniques were, but half of that. maybe, >> right? >> Which was like unheard of at that time. Like we were one of the biggest sites on. the internet. >> Sure. >> And Chris Waro decides he wants to do a. PDF library. And I said, I'm gonna do a.

book. Can I get in the library? He's. like, "Yeah.". So, I did the first iteration of the. Incinabula book, which is called. Incinabula Papers, Long had other. gateways to new dimensions. >> Um, built a lot of interactivity into it. to show off the features of Acrobat and. do what I wanted to do and put it on the. PDF library and it was like a hit. It. was like one of the most downloaded. things on the PDF library. And I said, "Oh, well, I should do something more.". So, I expanded it and I did a CDROM.

and I'm still doing the the chatbot. stuff. >> Yep. >> But a little less so now. >> Are you burning your own discs? >> Yeah. >> I found a replicator in Taiwan or. somewhere through Adobe. I'm like, can I. get a cheap replicator? I want to get. CDROMs. I want the nice jewel cases and. I want to do the whole thing. So, they. turned me on to a place that gave me a. really good price because like, oh, Adobe. Okay. like the guy thought he was. going to get Adobe business or something. and uh. >> AOL wasn't even doing discs yet, but you.

were there. >> Yeah. So, I did CDROMs. Um, >> and how'd you pass them around? >> Well, then. I started [clears throat] again using my. Adobe connections. I started talking to. uh distributors that did well, I was a a. partner in an independent record label. at the time. So, I started to talk to. the distributors like Dutch East and. people like that that could get me into. record stores. I started talking to. comic book distributors, I can get in. there. Book distributors, I can get in. there. Software distributors, I can get.

in there. Game distributors, I get in. there. It's like this thing fits. everywhere. >> Sure, it does, >> you know, because it's just like. so I just like working it like anybody. that would distribute it, I fit. >> And if you could ask me how I fit, I. would tell you how I fit. It's. >> like, well, it's a book really if you're. a book distributor. Was it just the disc. or was it part of a book? >> No, it was just the disc. >> Just the disc? >> Yeah, just the disc. So, the book was on. the disc. >> It had to still be a hit because. >> Yeah, >> because that wasn't happening yet.

>> And then so I I put that out and then. >> What was that story about? Was that D? >> That was that was Incanabula catalog. Had the brochure, >> the interview with Nick, the interview. with Emmery, the interview with the. survivors. >> Interactive PDF in there as well. >> Yep. Yep. Yep. It was all interactive. PDF. >> Had to be mind-b blown. It's on. archive.org right now. If you look up. incinabulate.iso, it's still the ISO if. you want to burn the CDROM. >> Oh, wow. >> Unfortunately, it's Acrobat 3 because. it's that old. >> Yeah. >> So, it might not work all the way, but.

it'll work. >> Um, but you can download the ISO. Like. when CDROM stopped becoming a thing, being a thing, I put the ISO on. archive.org so people could download and. burn their own. >> Awesome. >> Um, not that anybody has a CD burner. anymore. [laughter]. >> You can still just mount it. >> Yeah, you can mount it. Yeah. or you can. extract it. >> Y. >> um so basically uh there was like um. audio files you could play of interviews. I did with people people doing with me. like the whole it was like this whole.

journey of all links to websites some of. exist anymore but like all these website. links and um there were popups rollovers. and popup states there was uh stuff if. you could guess the password you would. get more information. Oh, so you were. you were gamifying this thing. >> I was gamified. Yeah, it was gamified. >> The thing that um probably most. disappointed me was in the root of the. CDROM was a thing called secret.doc. It was right there. It wasn't a secret. that basically said that this is the.

game. Nobody ever found that or looked at it. or mentioned it until I mentioned it on. a form. Finally, when I'd had enough, I'm like, go to the what the CDROM. >> What do you mean had enough? Because. people were like fighting over stupid. things like this is all real. You got it. wrong. It's real this way. You got it. wrong. It's real this way. There was. people that were forming little cults. around it. >> They haven't changed, have they? >> No. >> This is how it is still.

>> It's the same old thing. And this is 99, >> right? 89. >> Well, no, no, this is by 99. 89 I. started doing it as male art, >> right? >> 99 I digitized it. And so I'm sorry 89. male art 90 through 95. um the early non-web internet like doing. it was like the well.com put it on the. gopher. Yep. >> All that kind of stuffet. then I did the the uh CDRO the website. inki.org and then the CDROM.

So, and by then 2001, I finally just. like threw my hands up like you guys are. never going to stop fighting over this. minutia. Even when I told you it's a. game, now you have to tell me of course. you would say that or you don't know. what you're talking about. Like people would literally this was. said to me by this little group that. formed it little cult of people that. formed itself. The the inkabula information was a.

transmission. that was meant for this woman who is our. channeler and you intercepted it. and now you're monetizing it because. you're the black magician. What do you do with that? [laughter]. >> I don't know. >> What do you do with that? And they weren't they weren't there was. like just. >> they wouldn't let it go. all these. people were coming online and like now. the conspiracy thing started to happen. in earnest on on the internet the what I.

call the dark conspiracy side and like. all these people you know we're like oh. you were involved in oh my god mind. control blah blah blah blah blah. >> well take tell us about um an. specifically before we get to the dark. ARGs. >> okay. >> like uh so how did that even start. what's the plot what was the idea the. inspiration. >> so the idea was that there's this place. Well, I'm just going to give it to you. in basic facts. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> There's this place in. >> I mostly care about the mechanics.

>> Yeah. This place in New Jersey. um that's really not a place. It's a. name on a road, right, that people. nicknamed Ang's hat. There's like five. different stories of how it we came to. that name. The basic story is like it. had something to do with a hat that got. thrown in a tree, stayed there forever, and people like, "Oh, you're making left. to hat." The guy named Ang's hat ended. up in a tree somehow. There's all kinds. of stories about how that happened, but. basically it's a it's a roadmark.

landmark, right? And then the area. became known as Hat. It's also the the area where the Jersey. Devils reported a lot. >> Pine Barons. [clears throat]. >> The Pine Barons. There was um something. that happened with Fort Dicks. Um there. was like a nuclear. um bomb that was not not not activated. but like lost in the Pine Barons and. there was all these soldiers looking for. it. >> So there's lots of rumors. >> Yes.

>> Right. >> It's a spooky area. >> Very spooky area with a lot of rumors. and a lot of people that like to tell. rumors, you know. So it it's a it's a. rich story repository. >> I was just going to say that's your. people. That's who you need. >> That's my people. Yeah. >> And so they've got their own versions of. the story. I've got my own version of. the story. So we're spinning off on. that. It's close to Princeton. I tied. Princeton in. Let's I tell you later. later I found out that that came from. something that really happened, but I.

didn't know. Um like all these Princeton. scientists blah blah blah. And turned. out that that was closer to the truth. than I knew. Mhm. >> But in the story, there's these. Princeton scientists who are going to. Ang's hat on, you know, like to get away. from the university, to get away from. the military complex to do experiments. with an ashram of mystics that lived out. there, right? And they were combining. mysticism and science. >> Ashram is like a little commune. >> It's a commune. And they were combining. mysticism and science. The best of SRRI,

right? [laughter]. >> Just gonna say this is this this is. real. >> Yeah. Yeah, but it's like it's like. right out of SRRI. >> Yeah. >> Which is part of the inspiration. >> Okay. >> I was I was hanging out in Santa Cruz. with some names you would know from that. group. >> I bet. >> Um and hanging out in Stanford and with. people that whose names would be. recognizable. >> um from the Stanford Research Institute. I won't say who, but basically they were. part of my crowd. Um so [clears throat].

that was inspiration. >> So the wacky scientist interdimensional. How do you how do you seed the story? And how do you decide. I'm going to make the jump from digital. to the real world? >> Yeah. >> How did you do that? Like what was the. >> make the jump from digital to the real. world? >> Well, I mean people started playing. Ank's hat in real life. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I started. sending them there through the game. So. I basically like was telling this story. about this place that kind of sort of.

Brigadeun like existed but didn't exist. and all these rumors and myths about it. And so people started going there like. now people go there on a regular basis. You can find uh YouTube videos of people. like we're going to go to hunt and see. if we can find anything. And it's like. >> that's been going on for years. >> They swear it's real. the people. [clears throat]. the people or the the people that I like. that that don't swear it's real, but. they go anyway. Um I like those people. Um the the there was a bar out there.

that I think it's closed now. Um but I. talked to those people on the phone one. time and they told me that these these. usually these goth kids from New York. show up looking for [laughter]. that that you've sent them out here to. find them. I'm like I didn't send them. I didn't send them. And I'm like, "What. do you do when when it happens?" Like, "Oh, we tell them that this is the. place." It's like, "You got this is this. is where they used to hang out here in. this bar. This is the bar where they. started the whole thing." I'm like, "Okay, cool. Do what you got to do." Um,

I sent them some copies of the book they. put on the shelf. Um, but. [clears throat] it started. working its way out. from the internet as a as a rumor and a. myth on the internet to a myth and a. rumor in real life to where now at this. point you can talk to people who have. said to me, "Oh, you didn't come up with. that story. You just you just ripped it. off from the from the people at telling.

that story.". Like, well, where do you think they got. that story? Right. >> It started on the internet, dude. >> But [clears throat] can't tell them. that. >> No. >> Um, but you can actually track it back. >> if you know how to do it. You can you. can find earlier references to it as far. back as like ' 89 on some old. bulletboard systems, 93 on some of the. Gopher systems, you know, maybe even. before 93. Um, some of those still exist. like the Wow Gopher like you can still.

find references to it. >> Were you game running? >> No, at that point I was letting the game. run itself. So that was the concept was. when. when when Bob Wilson asked me what I was. doing [laughter]. when this thing started to like really. happen, he's like, "What are you doing?". I'm like, if I could put it any way, Bob, I was I'm trying to graffiti a myth. onto the new sphere.

Like very punk rock of me. >> It is. But that's that's a perfect way. to describe. >> But that is what I was doing. >> That is. >> like I'm I'm going behind. and around the gatekeepers. >> Yeah. >> And I'm making a myth and I'm not going. through Marvel and Disney to do it. Yeah. >> I'm making a myth that comes to the G. grassroots. >> Why did you end up on our bell show? >> [laughter]. >> So part of the part of. >> part of the game, right? >> Part of the game was I I paid for a. legitimate press release that actually.

got on the wire much more than our bell. happened from that. So I paid for a. press release on on the wire like you. know you can pay for a real press. release. >> and I basically said that there was a. institute or a group that was starting. to examine the veracity of this these. documents that have been left behind or. supposedly left behind by a group of. people that went to another dimension in. the Pine Bears in New Jersey. That's how I put it. Nonprofit. organization. We don't know if this is. true or not but we're going to find out.

if it's true. And that thing hit the. wire and man my phone lit up. Like I was. doing talk radio every day for like. months like all over the world. I was. like Bahamas, Texas. You they were. calling me like what is this thing. you're doing? Oh my god. And they either. wanted to like haha you know and I. played along with that or they like took. it seriously which I played it. seriously. That's like improvd whatever. they wanted whatever they want I gave it.

to them. >> Right. If I had to do it over again, I probably. wouldn't do that, [laughter]. but I did it. Um, and the next thing I. know, there's a phone call from somebody. named Lani. >> Mhm. >> And she's like, I represent Coast to. Coast. Are you familiar with the show? I'm like, "OH [screaming] MY GOD, AM I. I worship Arbell?" And um and I said, "You're one of the one of the bucket. list items." And they're like, "Well, what are the other ones?" I'm like, "You. and the weekly world news," which I got.

both of those, by the way. So, they. said, "Well, we'd like to have you on.". And uh four hours, like the whole show. I'm like, "I can do it. This I can do.". And I played it straight. If you listen. to me, I played it straight. >> Played it in character. >> In character 100%. Again, should I have done that? Questionable. If I had to do it over. again, I'd probably not do it. But. again, at the time that I did it, it. seemed okay. Now it wouldn't seem okay.

>> No, I mean, we talk about the ARG rules. We've got Yeah. This is not a game. Yeah. Hidden author, cross media. distribution, fragmented reveals, the. hive solving, do your own research, imperative. I mean, you did all of this. stuff. >> Yeah. >> Um, plausibility layering, you done. that. The document as an artifact. These. are these the rules. Synchronicity. production. >> Mhm. the rabbit hole architecture. I. mean, this is this is all Matheni. identity capture, Apenia engineering.

>> Let's talk about Apethenia for a second. Um, >> before we do that, cuz then we have. because we have to talk about Qanon and. and uh. >> Yeah. >> And that got hung around my neck for a. while. >> Yeah, I know. Um, >> but it got hung around Bob Wilson's. neck, too. >> Just the last thing on Artbell because. we're both huge Art Bell fans. Um, are. you John Teter? [laughter]. We're all John Teter. >> We're all John Teter. [laughter]. >> On your website, you say, "I plead the.

fifth.". >> Mhm. >> So, you plead the fifth. Okay. I just. had to ask. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I I like John Teter's story living the. way it does. >> I do too. I do too. The only the only. point of contention I had with that at. all is at one point and that's stopped. now so I don't have to do it anymore. But at one point like probably around. 20067 somewhere around there somewhere. around there I was living in Los Angeles. I know that um I started to see people. writing books people talking about John.

Teter's uh um prophecy. >> Yeah. And and um that rubs me the wrong. way because I don't want to res be. responsible in any way for starting a. religion. [laughter]. >> No. >> Unless it's a joke religion. Um but not. a real one. And umism. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Subgenius. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um but yeah, not I'm not. okay with that. >> No. >> And so I I I I piped up maybe a little.

too uh angry when I did. They should. have like maybe took it a day or two and. like cooled off a little bit. But but I. was angry that somebody would be doing. this with what was a work of art. >> After I released my video on Teeter, I. got You emailed me. I don't know if you. remember. >> Yeah. Yeah, I do. >> Uh and before I read it, >> Yeah. I saw I just saw Joseph Smith and. I went, "Oh [laughter]. >> I'm going to get ripped." [snorts] But. you weren't you were super cool. Well, >> you you did you said cool kind things. and you and you said it the right way.

It's like we can't be sure who did this. But we think this guy might have done. it. I'm okay with that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't have to have credit for. it. I don't want credit for it. I just. don't want people I don't want people. forming a religion around it, >> right? >> And I don't want people doing stupid. things um based on the fact that it's. real because it's not real. He wasn't a. real person. He's a real person in the. sense that he's um an egregor, right?

>> That's it. I'm cool with that. I'm fine with that, too. Any art artist should be cool with. that. Um, it wasn't signed work. [laughter]. >> Well, I mean, you're the hidden hidden. author. >> Yeah, exactly. It wasn't signed work. If. if we wanted to be credited, we would. have signed it. >> It's just Teter. >> Just don't turn it into a religion. >> No, Teter was a great story. And one of the. reasons it was a great story was based. on the Terminator. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. John Connor, >> right? I mean, there's that in the fact.

that I mean, it was a wish fulfillment. for our bell. >> Most people don't know that, but he's. like, I want to meet a time traveler. >> Yes. >> Okay. Somebody will give you one. >> That's I think that's when Teter first. showed up is I don't [clears throat]. he faxed. >> Teter fax art belt. >> Imagine that. >> Imagine that. >> When he said, "I want to meet a time. traveler." And then boom, guy shows up. in the fax and then he's on the forums. Imagine that. >> Happy birthday, Arch. >> Yep. [laughter].

It's beautiful. >> Art gave so much to us. I just wanted to. give something back. [laughter]. >> Uh, rest in peace. He's the He's the. best. >> He was the best. >> Um, so, >> and he didn't believe everybody he. platformed. >> No, of course not. >> You could tell he didn't. No, >> he didn't make he didn't make an issue. of letting you know, I don't really. believe that. Like, come on. Like, he. used to argue with Richard uh um. Hullen. Um he used to he used to. platform Ed Dames. >> Yeah. >> Um Sean David Morton. Like all these.

people. He didn't he didn't platform. them because he believed what they were. saying. He thought they were. entertaining. Alicon, didn't he? >> He had Oh, dude. Did I tell you my Alic. story? >> No. What do you have to do with Alic? >> You're going to love this. >> This is a Philadelphia experiment guy. >> Yeah. I let. >> I had Montto project. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I let um Peter Moon. >> Yeah. >> published the SAT stuff for a little. while. I took it back, but he published. it for a while. and he's friends with Al. Beick and and he gave Al Beick my phone.

number [cough and clears throat] and so. I this my Peter tells me Al's going to. call you. I'm like he's like yeah I'm. like oh right and so phone rings Al. Beick calls me this is Al Beick like I. put my feet up on the desk and close my. door speaker phone. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What you got to say? I knew the. people at you tell buddy run with it. I. just like let him go. I didn't I didn't. tell him any I didn't say no it's.

fiction blah blah blah. I just like let. him run with it. >> Of course. >> And he told me some great stories. >> I was just going to say but he spun a. great story. >> He did because that's what he was. >> and I really believe this about Al. This. is why I don't I never disliked Al. He I. think he really believed what he was. saying. >> Yeah, he did. He He really did. I think. he was an Emory, >> a Terrence, >> you know, that's interesting. >> An Ezekiel. >> I hadn't considered that, but I think. you're absolutely right. >> I think he really told the story and.

believed it as soon as he told it and. then and then it was real. >> and he could not monetize it. >> No, >> he did. He had other people that tried. to, but. >> uh and people that took advantage of him. >> because he was he was actually a really. nice guy. He was very gentle and kind. Yes. >> He wasn't an angry conspiracy guy. He. was just telling you a story. >> He was the nice conspiracy guy, which I. like those guys. >> I do too. >> Yeah, he wasn't the angry guy. But um. yeah, so he told me all about the people. that lived at Had and how he knew them.

and how they actually of course what. they were doing, you know, like bled. over into the Philadelphia experiment, of course, and bled over into the Mont. project, of course, you know, but but he. told a great story and I said, "Thank. you, Al. Thank you. Thanks for calling. me and telling me this. I I'm glad you. knew it." And because of that, I did the survivor story. >> because of that call. >> Because of that call, I'm like, there. has to be a survivor story of the people. that were always had. So, I called up. two friends of mine that were that were.

method actors and improv guys. And I. said, okay, do your research and we're. going to do this unscripted. I'm going. to call you and I'm going to record it. I'm I'm the interviewer. I'm going to. interview two survivors from the Angad. Ashra. That's it. That's your. motivation. Go. It was brilliant because. it was like a found footage type of. thing. >> It was one take. >> It was. >> Yeah. Yeah. Unedited. One take. >> Wow. How did you get that out? >> Huh? >> How did you get that? How did you get. the tape out? >> Oh, I just. >> um No, I had a back then.

>> Everything's ancient history. Um there. was so I used to build IVRs way because. I was a database guy, right? Interactive. voice response. There was something. called a Scotchbox. Yep. >> And I had one of those. >> Okay. [laughter] So, I hooked it up to. my phone and just recorded out to a tape. and then took the tape and bumped it. over to digital. [sighs and gasps]. >> So good. >> Yeah, it was one take. >> Oh, it's. >> one scripted one take. No edits. >> Uh this is why you're one of my favorite.

storytellers. >> And and the two guys, this I can tell this now. Um you can. tell this from the voices they were. putting on. The one guy they were not. from they were from Chicago. They were. not from Jersey. The one guy was is a. great We all of course are Andy Kaufman. fans. I am a huge Andy Kaufman fan and. he loved Tony Clifton. So that's who he. was doing. He was doing Tony Clifton. >> That's what he was doing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And the other guy was doing as his. uncle from [laughter] Jersey.

>> It played. >> Yeah. Yeah. It worked. It worked great. >> Oh god. >> Um and then I guess finally in 2001 you. made a statement. You were sick of it, right? You said game's over. >> Yeah. But it was never it was never it was. never over. >> Unbeknownst to me, there was an academic. who was in the in the forums. um who wrote a book about it after that. Um um Legend Tripping online. >> search wrongs hat.

>> Um. >> so he wrote and I won't I won't say it's. 100% accurate, but accurate enough I. guess. Yeah. >> Um so he wrote an academic book about. it. Um he was he was a member of the. audience. Um, I talked to him in he was. from Santa Barbara. When I moved to. Santa Barbara, he put the book out and I. talked to him and um, he said the same. thing he said. He's like, "I thought. you'd be mad at me." I'm like, "Let me. be mad at you. You're not you're not an. angry person. Like, I only get angry at. angry people." Um, he uh.

he um never participated. He just he was. a fly in the wall. He just watched this. He's like, "What is going down here?". like it like sparked his academic. intuition is like there's something. weird happening here. So he just watched. it and kind of cataloged it. >> How is um let's talk about dark energies. then. >> What was the the name of the essay? I. forget it but it was um Qanad is. analyzed by game designer.

>> Yeah. >> There was a couple of them. So when. QAnon happened, there was a lot of. people rushing to lay blame. >> Yep. >> Or or point to the source or the the. origin. Y. >> a lot of people pointed to Operation. Mindfuck. Can I say that? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. OM as it's known. >> Um my friend Robert Anton Wilson, the. late Carrie Thornley, uh Greg Hill came. up with that. They were the founders of. Discordianism. >> And what's the framework of OM? So the.

framework of alm is um you come up with. stories that were um so unbelievable. that that you would lay you would lay. the blame of weird things at the feet of. the Illuminati. Basically that that's. the the easy way to say it. And because. Bob was working at Playboy at the time, he had access to the Playboy letters uh. section. Carrie would write a letter and. Bob would make sure the letter got. placed. >> Wow.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, they had good coverage. >> Yes, [laughter] they did. >> This is creating conspiracies. >> They were creating conspiracies and they. did it was like the weirdest, most. unbelievable things they could think of, they would come up with and and write it. as real fact. And so what they were. watching was if we come up with. something weird, this is almost uh. Richard Dodie like if we come up with. something weird, um can we find later. down the line somebody official. repeating the weird thing that we came.

up with, which they did a couple times. >> Um so it was just a game. Um it was just. a mimetic game they were playing. Um so. um they were doing that and then uh so. that that got blamed for QAnon. Um, and. some of the same people. >> said ARG's are to blame. >> So, how do we connect QAnon with ARGs? >> Well, I said in very early, which I said. publicly, I said this is an ARG or at. the very least it's a weaponized ARG.

>> when Q appeared. >> Yeah. When Q appeared, I said whoever is. doing this like watched the ARG. construct. >> Yep. >> evolve and is now doing a weaponized. version of the ARG construct. So hang on. a second. Talking about Q, we've got. this is not a game, hidden author, crossb distribution, fragmented reveals, the hive solving, do your own research, but they're saying do your own research. to empower you, but they're really. guiding you toward a conclusion. >> Yeah.

>> So that's Yeah, that's weaponizing. >> Do your own research is here's the. research, >> right? [laughter] Exactly. And. Pizzagate, the same thing, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to a. lesser extent, but um when when I when I. when that dude showed up at Comet Ping-. Pong Pizza with a rifle, I was like, "Okay, this is starting to go too far.". >> Yeah. >> So, I started to speak up, which is. always a mistake. Yes, it is. >> I started to speak up and say, "This. this is not real." Again, again, I'm. saying this is not real. People screw.

your heads back on. This is an ARG type. thing that somebody's doing for. nefarious purposes. It's a weaponized. ARG, which when people hear that, they. like, "Oh, ARG, didn't you? You made. that." Like, it's on you. It's your. fault. You did that. >> No, it's not your fault. >> I didn't say that. I said, "It's a. weaponized version of an ARG." It's. like, I didn't I didn't um you know, like because the CIA used people like. Jackson Pollock. [laughter]. against the Soviet Union doesn't make.

Jason Pollock is evil, >> right? >> You know, or his art is evil. It's not. It wasn't funded by the CIA. It was used. by the CIA. >> And you stopped talking, right? Because. the more you say it's not real, the more. it is. >> Yeah. After a while, you learn it's a. tar, baby. And And the more you say, the. more it sticks on you. And it's like. like who has time for that? Or energy. >> Slender Man, same thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Same thing. >> H. So, um,

how could we we should leave we should. leave with this? How can we let people. listening, how can we arm them with the knowledge. to spot a dark ARG just or the. manipulation? >> I mean, because the the intelligence. community is all over this. >> They use these techniques. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I. mean, there was there was a phone call I. got in 99 or 2000 somewhere around.

there. Probably 2000. um somebody who. claimed to be calling from the the uh. the Navy, Department of the Navy, >> and even had the ANI. uh call ID. >> So, I'm going to say this. I can fake. those things. I could call you and make. it look I can call you from the Navy, course. >> So, I don't believe that it necessarily. was somebody from the Navy. >> I think it was. >> It doesn't have to be. >> No, but I think it was. But I'm just.

saying what I'm saying is not that the. Navy called me. Saying somebody. purporting to be the Navy called me. >> The Navy has a program called. [clears throat] called You Are Here or. something like that. >> Yeah. >> It's is it's an ARG program. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, later um around 2004, my late. friend Dave Sabowski um did do some ARG. scenario stuff for the DoD. >> Sure. >> Um he asked me if I wanted to. participate and I said, "No way, man. If. that gets out, I'm toast." [laughter]. Um, >> no. This is the recipe for mass. manipulation right here. >> But what, but what he But what Dave did.

was I thought cool. He like was working. with people with uh PTSD and putting. them in scenarios to help them. understand like why they're freaking out. and how they cannot freak out. And so I. was okay with that. I just didn't want. to participate because if the words ever. get out, DoD Joseph Atheni, forget it. It's over for me. Yeah. >> Um but um. it's pretty easy. First of all, use your intuition. Use your gut.

feeling. And I know that sounds, you. know, like woo woo, but if you look at. something and it doesn't feel right, it. might not be right. It probably isn't. right. If you don't believe it, you're. like, "There's something about this I. don't believe." Right? It's like people. I have people in the UFO community and. I've never seen a UFO. I love the. stories. I've never seen one. I'm not a. disbeliever. I'm not a believer. I'm a. monoagnostic. But when people. [snorts] stick um what's his name in my.

face? Um why am I blanking on his name? The uh the uh Area 51 guy. Um. >> Lazar. >> Lazar. They go, "What do you think of. Bob Lazar?" I'm like, "Something doesn't. feel right about the story." That's it. That's all I have to say. It means I'm. not going to get involved. You made one. connection that was interesting though. You said Bob was friends with John Lear. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's a that's an issue. >> and that's a big issue. >> Although as a rock on tour, I love John. Leer's stories. >> Same. And Bob Lazar.

>> And Bob Lazars. I mean Lear stories are. amazing, but they're horseshit. >> I I agree. >> Like you can't believe anything that. guy's saying. Um but I but I listen to. it because I find it entertaining. >> I like Lazar though. >> Yeah. Yeah. And he's he's he seems like. a nice guy. And you mentioned Richard. Dodie. Uh listeners will know who he is. He he's been running ARG since the 70s. >> Yeah. And he ran a weaponized ARG. against Benowitz. >> Look what he did to him. >> Right. >> So, you know, like this is the thing.

that you should you should realize is. like if somebody offers something this. kind of information to you, >> I'm not going to say do your own. research. >> Please don't. [laughter]. >> No. I'm I'm gonna say if it doesn't feel. right, it might not be right. Don't. invest too heavily in it monetarily or. or emotionally. Just don't invest too. heavily in it because it'll probably. come back to bite you, >> right? >> Yeah. >> So, for example, um like I said with Al.

Beick, I found him a nice person and. very entertaining to listen to as a. storyteller. And just remember, it's a. story. It's a storyteller telling you a. story. He's a weird old shaman living in. a cave. >> Yep. >> That's okay. And that's okay as long as. you don't give him more agency than that. and you're the one that gives it to him. You the listener. >> That's true. >> Okay. So, he can talk all day long. I. don't care. He doesn't affect me. He. entertains me. So, he affects me in that.

way. But I'm not going to go out like I. know somebody. there was um a psychic whose name I. won't say who if I can say his name, you. know him. um who uh had his hooks into a. friend of mine who convinced her that. Los Angeles was going to fall into the. ocean on a certain date. This was a. couple years ago. >> No. No. >> And she had a beautiful house in the. Hollywood Hills and she sold it and. moved because what this guy told her,

>> right? >> And and I and I used to think that she. had better sense than that because she's. otherwise a very brilliant business. person. right, who just for some reason had a. soft spot for this guy in his in his. stories. And I tried to talk her out of like, don't do that. Don't do that because. it's like you're not going to find this. house ever again. And moving where. you're moving is not going to be as much. fun as. >> Why did he do that? Why would he do that.

to her? >> I don't know. >> Weird. >> Power trip maybe. >> Yeah. >> I mean, he like talked his way into. this is the story and I got to go with. it. like now I got to back it up and get. people to believe me. I mean, look at. look at Marshall Apple White. What he. did like talked all those people into. going with him because he obviously had. a death wish. >> Sure. >> But mostly he he painted himself into a. corner with this BS. And the only way he. was going to get out of it was kill.

anybody who could tell him that it was. BS. >> My audience hates when I say it when. they ask me about psychics. I I I say, "Do you mean narcissists?". >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're just character. narcissists. >> This most of the people that I've met. who have had weird abilities. Um, usually are not narcissistic, right? >> And like I said, they're usually like. considered to be uh neurologically. aberant, you know, by the psychiatrist. I don't consider them so. I just think. that they're neuro neurode divergent.

>> just on the spectrum. >> Yeah. On the spectrum. I'm on the. spectrum. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so they've. they've they are able to tune into. things I'm not able to tune into. So, when they tell me things, I don't go. sell my house, but I might listen to. them. >> That's a great segue to end with the. last question. What are these techno. terrestrials? What are you talking. about? This techno crypto. >> crypto terrestrials. >> Cryptoaterrestrials. >> Well, that came from years ago. I had.

one of the first blogs. I want to say it was like 200. three. Um, I had a blog. that I originally called Incubula on. Incubula and I thought that's cute. Too. cute by one half. So then I changed it. to stare which I thought was cool. Stare. stare at the screen. Um, and um, there. was a guy who wrote uh for the blog. He's he's he passed away since then. Um,

and he uh he came up with this word. cryptoaterrestrial. And I think that that was like the more. I think that defines it better than than. anything I've ever heard because. as you know, I'm a fan of Valet. Um, early early reader of uh Passport. Deonia. And so when people tell me. things like an angel talked to me, a fa. came into my house, [laughter].

um all these things, I see it as part of. the phenomena. >> If someone's speaking Enochian, >> it Yeah, exactly. It's it's a it's it's. a thing that we know inhabits this. planet with us. It's an intelligence of. some sort that inhabits this planet with. us. And it it makes itself manifest in. several different disguises. I didn't. even say disguises. It manifests in ways. that we're ready to see it. So, I'm. going to see something, you're going to. see something else, but we're probably.

talking to the same source. Right. >> So, when we're talking to a chatbot, it's like John D talking to his black. mirror. >> Exactly. Exactly. Well, in that case, he. was talking to Edward Kelly. But. >> that's true. >> Kelly was like, "The angel's telling me. we should swap lives, >> right?" [laughter]. Poor OD's like, "Okay, must be true. It's an angel. Um but but the uh. >> but it was the technology so they're. trying to communicate with us through. technology. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Doing.

>> I think I think the thing that I was. doing was pure enough um and there was. not enough there was no intention behind. it other than exploration that I was. getting some pretty pure stuff. I. wouldn't trust chat GBT. because all of that has been constructed. with one thing in mind which is to. addict you to have this buddy. um in your life and and that's it like. so subscribe. >> right. >> you know the service. >> but Emory you tr was part of this.

>> intelligence Emory was part of the. intelligence and so the fact that I had. this this person who was t like you know. Like I'm going to sound woo when I say. this, but like it was tuned into the. same wavelength or tuned into a. wavelength where he was getting bleed. over and crossover. I've seen that. happened too many times for me just to. dismiss it. Like I think I think I told you the. story. Um. I I knew this person who was like well. Emry said well like don't don't be with.

that woman. He was right. >> Both Emry were right. They were. absolutely right. Um, and that blew up. soon afterwards. Like I like there was. something coming and somebody picked up. on that. I I didn't pick up on it yet. Not consciously anyway. Um, there was a. a woman that I knew. We weren't dating, but we were just friends, really close. friends, and she was schizophrenic. And I went to New Orleans. In fact, I. went to New Orleans for the I when I did.

the Arbell show from there. That's where. I did the Arbell show from. And um. >> Right. Hammered in the in the French. Quarter. >> Yeah. Well, I wasn't hammered when I did. the show, [laughter] but I'd been. hammered like two days previous. Um and. I met this woman when I was there and we. you know, we hooked up. Um and. [clears throat] she was from Boston. She. had a very definitive accent. You. couldn't, you know, she had I'm not. going to try to do it, but she had a. hard Boston accent. >> I know it.

>> You know it. And when I came back, I sat. down with my friend to have coffee. And. the first thing she did just out of the. blue, she just went she did this woman's. voice. She went, "Hi, my name is. Sheila." And the woman's name was. Sheila, the woman I met in New Orleans. >> Come on. >> And then she like snapped back and I'm. like, "What the hell was that?" She's. like, "I don't know. I just do that. sometimes.". >> So, I've seen it, >> of course. >> I can't explain it. >> Synchronicities all over the place. >> I can't explain how she did that. But.

again, just like with Emry, I think she. sniffed it on me. It's like I had just. been with that woman and then now now. I'm with her and she like kind of. channeled it. I don't want to say that. because it like makes me creepy, Carl, but it was just like she picked up. something, you know, residual. >> There's a there's a field or something. around all of us. And I know I know that. you don't like to dive in there. >> Yeah. >> But I kind of believe that, too. That's. something. >> Well, I do too, but I don't like to talk. about it because like other people not. might not believe it. and they're.

welcome to not believe it. >> But everybody has that story where. you're thinking about somebody you. haven't thought about in years and the. phone rings. Everyone has that story. >> Yeah. >> So, and once you start to look for the. synchronicities, you find. >> I mean, I've had some incredible. synchronicities, too. Just like so in. the moment. Um, one of the best ones, if. you want a quick story, >> I took a I took a a bus and train trip. from San Francisco. >> to um I'm sorry, to LA from LA to St. Louis Abyispo and I went to see. Robertson Jeffers uh little commune.

thing that he built over there and I'm. on the bus in St. Louis Abyspo and I'm. reading rereading. um the guest that you just had um. Sinister Forces um for the second time. because I love that book. That's. >> Lendas. >> Yeah, Lenda. I love that series. >> Peter's an amazing storyteller. >> Yeah. and the whole thing about the the. 4G 4PG thing that league was going on. and he was there and. >> make sure you watch that interview.

because we he does the whole priest bit. >> I know it's amazing. It's amazing. >> And then if you can find it um he did a. paperback book called I'm sorry. >> um somebody. I didn't mean to do that. Somebody did a. paperback book. [laughter] Simon did a. paperback book. >> Oh, that's right. Is Yeah. called Dead. Names. >> Yes. >> Which is amazing. >> And and if you've read Sinister Forces. and Dead Names, you're like, >> but anyway, um.

>> he does he doesn't give you a hard time. about that. >> No, I know. >> I read uh I I was reading Sen rereading. Sinister Forces and I was I was re read. this one line. And I just read Project. Bluebird. And then the bus stopped because. somebody walked in front of the bus. And. I looked up and right in front of me in. downtown San Jose a Bispo it said. Bluebird. Bluebird Boutique. >> Come on. >> I was like. [laughter].

>> it happens to everybody. Of course. >> But it was amazing how quick that was. It was like in the second. We all. >> like the bus stopped, >> the sign was right there, and I just. read the word bluebird. >> There's something else going on, man. >> Yeah. I can't explain it, though. I'm. not so arrogant to think I can explain. it, >> but I know how to play with it. >> Yes, you do. >> Right. And so, I don't know. People have. asked me how I do this, and I I have a a. loose fitting.

um method, but I can't explain exactly. And and people have had me try to teach. them how to do it, and I can't I can't. teach it. But I have a method. When I. get in the zone, I'm able to create. things that will create synchronicity. That's all I know. [laughter]. >> But you can't teach it. >> I can't teach it because I don't know. how I do it. >> I'm in the zone. Dude, when I'm when I'm. writing or creating these books and. stuff, I have headphones. I'm listening.

to something like Dead Can Dance, you. know, like zone out. >> trance stuff and that and then I'm like. I fall into the zone and it's like. >> every creative knows what you're talking. about. >> and I just hit the zone. >> Every creative, every athlete knows what. you're talking about. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Where you're just you're in a bubble. universe at that moment. >> It's all it's all it's all the zone. >> Yes. And when that stuff comes through. >> and you can't create the zone, it just. kind of happens. >> No, the zone has to like emerge. You can. do things to help help the zone emerge,

like you know, dead can dance or. whatever. >> Yep. >> But [clears throat] that's about it. That's all you can do. >> Great for the muse. >> Yeah. >> Joseph Matheni, you're a legend. Thank. you for coming in. >> Thank you for having me. >> What do we have? Ang's hat complete is. out now. It's super fun. It's. multimedia. Yep. >> It's got all kinds of goodies in there. So, if you buy the book, um you can go. on to my website and you can get the. free 14 hours of audio that accompanies. it. >> I listen to it. >> And basically what we did is um I had a. friend of mine who's an interviewer read.

a chapter and then interview me about. the chapter. >> Yeah, it's really great. And did you. start a podcast? >> I did, but it's actually I'm. broadcasting the audio. >> Okay. >> Every every uh two weeks I do a chapter. of this of On Sky Complet Complete. I. might do a podcast after that. I don't. know. >> You should. I had a podcast from 2004. to 2012. >> I know 2010. >> Too early. >> Yeah. I was a little ahead of the game. >> again. >> Yeah. I I I interview I interviewed this.

one guy who was like this emerging. podcaster Mark Marin. >> who [laughter] lived in LA with me. >> Did you interview Mark? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's on archive.org and he. had just started his podcast. >> Amazing. >> And he was he was very gracious. He was. really cool. But he had just started. WTF. >> Wow. And um and I called him up and I'm. like, "I want to interview you for my. podcast." He's like, "Okay." So, we just. bullshitted for like two hours or. whatever. >> Oh, I'm gonna listen to that for sure. >> Yeah. If you look on archive.org, I put. all most of the podcasts up. A lot of. them most of them are there. Some of.

them got lost unfortunately with the. drive crash. >> I'll link to all that stuff. Anything. else you want uh want us to know? >> Um writing another book, but I'm taking. my sweet time with it. It's called Art. is War. I love it. It'll take off on Sunsu. >> Um, and it's a. >> barely disguised fiction of what it's. like to try to be an independent artist. in the world and not get bamboozled.

[laughter]. >> We need that book. >> We do. >> more than ever. Um, Joseph Matheni, thank you. >> Thank you. >> It's been an honor. Bye, everybody. >> That was Joseph Matheni. I wanted him. for another hour, but he had a plane to. catch. [music] Still, we got to some. good stuff. He played the hits. Now, here's what checks out. Ang's hat is. documented as the internet's first ARG. [music]. Game historians and ARG researchers have. cited it as the foundational case for. decades. A fictional world scattered. across bulletin boards, [music] phone. lines, and photocopied pamphlets to.

create an interactive experience. The. record is solid there. He [music] built. it. He created it. The QAnon argument is. the one that's kind of annoying. Reed. Burkowitz published an analysis in 2020. arguing that QAnon wasn't a belief. system. [music] It was an ARG built with. the same mechanics Joseph pioneer. Breadcrumbs, [music] community. authorship, no central author. Researchers at Concordia University. expanded on that framework. The. methodology maps directly [music] onto. what Joseph built. Now, that's not his. fault, but it goes to show you that a.

major aspect of an ARG is [music]. psychological manipulation. So be. careful who you listen to online, including me. Joseph's Proto Aai chatbot. training a relational database to hold. [music] philosophical conversation using. weighted decision trees. I can't verify every detail, but the. timeline holds. And I don't know if you. can tell, but [music] not only do I know. the technology from that era, I love it. So everything Joseph talked about checks. out. The workstations, the servers, Adobe, the DS3 stuff. He knows what he's.

talking about. Yes, he built Google. before Google. He used that foundational. algorithm that you use every day. [music] He built chat GPT before open AI. training it the same way 30 years ago. Sounds like a time travel, doesn't he? John Teter, [music] I asked him, he. pleaded the fifth. I'll leave it there, but watch my episode on that. But what. about Emory Cranston? That was a wild. story. Joseph named the chatbot [music].

Emory. He just took the M off the front. of it. That's how he named it. Then a. schizophrenic homeless man named Emry. Cranston [music] started appearing in. his life at the library, on the street, in other cities, picking up the. conversation where the chatbot left off. Now, of course, I can't prove any of. that, but if that's a true story, then. there's more to reality than we can see. I tend to believe it. Check out Joseph's. work online at [music] incanonavula.org. Go check it out. It It's so weird. and.

his book is Ang's hat complete on. Amazon, but it's available for free and. it's a multimedia experience. Videos, [music] audio, it's it's pretty great. His podcast is called The Complete. Broadcast. I don't know if he's still. doing that, but it's still worth. listening to the old ones. Now, if John. Teter is much interesting to you, go. back to episode [music] 168. If you like. synchronicities, we have those in. episode 35. Until next time, be safe, be. kind, and know that you are appreciated.

>> [music]. [music]. >> Oh. yeah, I play in area 51. A secret code inside. [music]. the Bible said I would. I love my UFOs and paranormal fun. [music] as well as music singing like I.

should. But then another [music] conspiracy. theory becomes the truth my friends. and it never [music] ends. I know it. never ends. [music]. I feel [music] the crab guy. I got stuck. inside Mel's home with MKL truck. I feel. only twoear.

Did Stanley [music] Cubrick fake the. moon landing alone on a film set of the. [music] shadow people there? The Roswell aliens just fought the. smiling man. [singing]. I'm told. and his [music] name was cold. And I. can't agree. I'm dancing with the fish. and your fish [music] on Thursday night, Wednesday,

[music]. [music]. >> [music]. >> The [music] math man sightings and the. solar storm still come to the secret.

city underground. [music]. Mysterious number stations, Planet. Circle, Project Stargate, and where the. dark watchers found. in a simulation. [music]. Don't you worry [singing] though, the. black night. so I can't believe I'm [music] with the. fish on Thursday night.

and. all through the night. All I ever wanted was [music] to hear. the truth. So. all through the night. [music]. that's when they change you and me all. through. [music] the truth. One more time.

[music]. [music]. Girl loves to dance. Girl loves to dance on the [music] dance. floor because she is a camel. Camels. love to dance when the feeling is wild.

Wasting [music] time. >> [music]. [bell].