The Basement: John B. Allen | Becoming MrBallen

Today we're talking with John Allen. You. know him as Mr. Ballen, the guy in the. flannel with the strange dark and. mysterious stories. In SEAL training. they called him Shakespeare. >> [music]. >> There was one strip of sand where the. instructors left students alone, and. John spent it telling stories to keep. his class sane. That instinct survived a. grenade in Afghanistan and a medical. retirement. Then it made him famous. >> They called me Shakespeare Folsom, you. know. >> Telling stories? >> Yeah, but organizing a theater program. We did Cats. I have regrets. >> Today we're covering how that happened,

what the success cost him, and the craft. of a story 5 million strangers will stop. scrolling [music] for. His new book is. The Terror Within, nine illustrated. stories, four never told anywhere. >> The Terror Within, great title. My. memoir's got a similar one, The Terror. Within 14 ft of my ball. It's about the crab cat. FEED THE CRAB. CAT. >> PARTWAY THROUGH, John tells a few. stories from his military years he's. never told anywhere else, and it gets. kind of heavy. I'm glad he trusted me. with it. Stick around after the episode.

and I'll pop back in and untangle the. conversation. There's going to be some. surprises at the end, like there always. is. Let's go down to the basement. John, welcome to the basement. >> Thank you, man. All right. So happy to. be here, dude. >> Are you really? >> No, really. No, really. No, I'll be. honest straight up about it. Like I have. seen in our comments for years not like.

uh oh dude, I love the Wi Files. Like. this is crap what you do, but more like. dude, you and AJ, you got to get together. Like what did the These are my two. shows, like Mr. Ballen and the Wi Files. And and so I've always been aware of you. and your show. I I see clips of you all. the time. Uh I saw you went on Shawn Ryan and I. was like secretly like that's fucking. awesome. Like I don't know if I can. swear on the show. Yeah, okay. And I uh and no, it's just. you're someone that I'm I've always. really respected. I love like you talked.

about craft before the show. Like it's. so obvious that you put so much care. into building out your show and like. it's it's so uniquely yours and I know. how much work goes into this and how. much skill goes into this and I've just. respected you from afar and it's really. cool to finally be collaborating as I. say. >> That was very sweet. Um I wasn't going. to start with this, but since you were. so nice, I probably have to credit you. for at least my early success because I.

was just floundering obscurity doing my. weird stuff with the fish. And my brother's like, "You should post. on TikTok." And I was like, "No one watches this shit on TikTok.". He's like, "Well, Mr. Ballen does it." I. said, "I don't know who that is." So, I. go and I see your I'm like, "Wow, it's. working for him." So, I did it. It. didn't work for me on TikTok. It like. worked for one video then I was shadow. banned. But it did drive some people to the. channel and it was because it was. because of you. You You You kicked the. door in. >> Yeah, it's so weird like the the TikTok. thing, man. Like so you you you said the. little story there. I uh. I was at Great Wolf Lodge, the indoor.

water park. I have three kids. Uh they're very young. and and our family vacation of choice is. always like some indoor water park. Or. just any anything to do with water. That's that's our family vacations. It's. the best. >> I figured you'd have like a weird. love-hate relationship with the water. >> I do. >> It's complicated, right? >> Yeah, actually I was earlier today I was. actually in. uh in Los Angeles for the like an. advertising conference and I was near. the Pacific Ocean. And and I it's funny. like I would go down to the water to I. go for a little run. It's like so.

beautiful and I'm just like staring at. the ocean and remembering [laughter]. what it was like, you know, in the seal. in the seal training. Um but like back. to the the water park thing. So, I I I. post the story about the missing hikers. and like personally I've always been. really into just as a consumer, I've. been really into strange, dark, and. mysterious true stories or or things. that are purported to be true. Uh I used to love watching that channel. Dark 5. I don't know if you are familiar. with Like it was I just loved that.

channel. It's like if I was going to put. something on the internet if I was going. to put on something on YouTube, it was. always going to be something like that. And I I told that story and and then I. come back from being in the water park. and it's it's gone viral. But like I'm a 30-something year old dad. of multiple kids. I was like in the. military. And I did intentionally post. something on social media. It isn't like. I didn't do that. >> Well, you were trying a few different. things, right? >> I was. I absolutely But like truly, nothing came close. So it never really.

felt like I actually was like, "Oh, I'm. a content creator.". >> Are there really TikTok videos of you. dancing? >> They've been eradicated. >> What? >> [laughter]. >> Did they exist? >> They did. No, the worst one was I uh I think this. it was like so cringey. Like I'm pretty. good about talking about stupid stuff. I've done. The worst one I did was. Uh so this is this is pre-virality. This. is like. >> Get up and show us. >> No, it wasn't a dance. It wasn't a. dance. It was uh there was this. there was a uh trend on TikTok. This is.

like late 2019. Where remember. early TikTok and probably still today, it was like almost exclusively kids. It's like teenagers. Like I I was. generations older and and I'm not even. old, but like for TikTok, like you're. old, right? And the the trend was these. kids would like tell a sort of innocuous. story that was sort of like. maybe about some stupid thing that. happened to them like when they like. spilled milk on their pants in front of.

their their friends at school or. something, but they would do it. while singing into the auto-tune feature. on TikTok. So it's like this weird like. you're singing a song about how you like. pooped your pants when you were in fifth. grade to like auto-tune. And I was like, I should do that. >> Show us. >> [laughter]. >> I told a story about something to do. with with Navy SEAL training. But like I. remember I'd like I did like 50 takes. I'm like sitting in my truck outside of. Starbucks and in Doylestown, Pennsylvania where I was living at the. time. And I finally had it. I'm like, "Phew,

that's great. That's that's the one.". >> [laughter]. >> Post. And then it was like, "Who's this. unk?". >> Oh no, that's the worst. >> And then I'm like, "All right, that's. bad." But the dude yeah, like everything. just sort of took off and even now like. you know Tik Tok was where it began and. and I transitioned it to YouTube and. it's like it's a whole thing now. But. I think people say this and they they. they feign humility in a way like, "Oh, I can't believe this is happening." But. like really.

I was like, "I'm going to go be a Navy. SEAL. I'm going to I'm going to devote. myself to this. This is going to be my. thing." And I fucking did it. I became a. Navy SEAL. This is like a career path. And I was I couldn't have been more. proud. Like this is it. And then you. know shit goes sideways. I'm I'm getting. hurt in Afghanistan. I actually stuck. around in the teams for a couple of. years. I did another deployment before I. was medically retired, but it was. because of the injury. But then it's like I'm suddenly a. civilian and it's like, "Dude, now. what?". >> Now what? >> I'll just post cringe stuff on Tik Tok.

But it like it you know it's just weird, you know, like I I feel like such an. impostor and also confident. Like I'm. very confident in what I do. But like I was at this in this. advertising conference, you know, literally today and yesterday. And it it. went great. Like we're partnered with. Sirius. They're awesome. And they we. want to meet clients. And like we had. these great meetings with like. advertisers and and brokers. It it's. like it's great. But the whole time I'm. like, "What am I doing? Like what is. this? How is the How am I being like.

ushered on stage?" And here's Mr. Ballen. Like whoa. It's like so surreal, you know? >> Uh Jen and I just came back from LA and. we kept saying, "Who's life is this?". Cuz it's weird. It's so unlikely what. happened, certainly to me, but it cuz. you're much younger than I am. So. unlikely. Did you know how. Here's what I tell people about YouTube, is if I knew how hard it was, I probably. wouldn't have done it. >> Has weight loss ever felt like a losing. battle? Maybe you start off consistent, but life happens and you take a day off, which turns into weeks, maybe months.

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started and learn more, including. important safety information, Wegovy. clinical study information, and. restrictions, visit [music] hims.com. >> Oh god, it's so hard, man. >> The. But people don't realize how cuz they're. like, "Mr. Ballen is cuz you were so. huge.". >> It was quick. Yeah, it was rapid. Like I. uh. The weird thing is when I really think. about like, "Where have I in my life used, let's. say, Navy SEAL, my experience as a Navy.

SEAL? Where have I used those things. that I sort of learned about myself in. my life? Where have I done it?". And honestly, I only have one place that. I can I can honestly say I channeled my. inner Navy SEAL. and it was in the first 6 months of. making YouTube videos. And it was. because to to put out consistent videos. when it's basically a one-man show. over and over and over again. It sounds. so silly. It's a video, dude. Like. what's that? Dude. >> Dude. >> To to put a script together, even even.

if you don't even adhere to the script, to just make something make sense that. can be translated across like different. generations and like to do the research. and then to be on camera, like that's. not a natural thing. Like you're you're. awesome at it. Like you're really a. natural. I wasn't and like early on I. had to sort of like do so many takes, so. many takes. >> And no prompter, right? You're just like. glancing? >> I was I I Well, because I spent so much. time researching it, I go right into. recording that a lot of time it was. fresh, but no, I didn't didn't use a.

prompter at all. >> I tried that, I couldn't do it. I need. the prompter. >> It's it's brutal. It's brutal without. the prompter, dude. Uh even now, like I. still we have a prompter now, but like. it's there's I I it's almost ingrained. to sort of go off the cuff a little bit. But I would uh I remember having so many. moments in the first 6 months of doing. YouTube when like it it's objectively. being really successful. Like I I I have. lived an incredibly modest life before. that. Like I didn't did not come from. any sort of money or anything. And like. almost literally overnight you know,

videos are being posted on YouTube that. are making thousands of dollars in a. fucking day. Like in a day that's. happening. There was a video that I. remember I posted a video that it was. like post next to like $18,000. for like one video. And I I have I've. never even come close to this. And so. it's like. the work that I'm putting in is being. almost instantly rewarded. And it's also. like I love this content. I really do.

But the grind is so intense and I would. have moments where I'm like on my third. Red Bull and I've been up for like three. not three like like two days and I have. I know I have easy four five six hours. before I even record and I got to edit. it myself. I would literally say to. myself I'm like delirious. You were a fucking Navy SEAL. >> You have to psych yourself up? >> You can outwork the other aspiring. YouTubers out there and like so help me. God I did but there were there were.

stretches of time that I it sounds so. silly but like. SEAL training in Buds is like. objectively a challenging thing but it's. so structured. Here's what you're going. to do. Either you do it or you don't but. with a creative venture where it's like. all on you there's no end. You just sort. of like go as much as you can you work. as hard as you can and then sometimes. like when things don't go well like. there's no one there to be like don't. worry buddy like get them next time like. no you just got to pick yourself back up. and do it. And the hours are crazy the.

pressure is insane. I think what people. also don't know is like if you've hit. any level of success on YouTube at all. you you really stop thinking in terms of. boy like this video did really good. No. it's like boy I hope it doesn't suck. That's it. The metric is I hope I hope. the views aren't so bad that the channel. starts to deteriorate because. >> Well you know you know what sucks when. you post it right? You know that's. terrible. I worked 80 hours on that and. sucks and they're going to tell me it. sucks. >> Yes dude. [laughter].

>> Every week. >> But it's like the algorithm. unfortunately like you're tethered to. it. I mean like you're foolish if you if. you don't think you are. If you want to. make a career over any amount of time. doing YouTube doing like. digital media today you are beholden on. some level to the performance of your. video in the algorithm and so you have. to sort of play the game of. understanding what's going to make it. perform what's not without selling. yourself out and my God like. you you you get the hate comments that's. part of life. You get like sort of the. criticism that way. But I I started to.

attach my self-worth to like the. performance of a video, which is so. silly. Like it's. >> Yeah, but you're speaking to my heart. right now. >> Dude, and like. >> And I stopped doing true crime. I've. only done a few true crimes because it's. so risky with the algorithm. >> Oh, yeah. >> So you even early on, like before you. were in the partner program, you must. have been like, am I going to see the. orange dollar sign? >> time. All the time. >> Cuz it's like, oh, I don't don't get. paid this week. >> Yep. Oh, yeah. Oh, good. I put in all. this time and I suffered for this and.

it's a great episode, but it will do it. it might even hurt my channel because. it's demonetized. We had we had a deluge. of we, I. It was reds and oranges. Like. there were there were there was a video, oh my god, it like it it's it it's funny. cuz you totally get this, like the video. was like 50-some minutes long. So it's. like long, it's about an hour long. And. like right out the gate, it was. dominating. Like it was it was I think. it was like 10 million views in in the. span of like a few weeks or something.

>> Wow. >> It was like and even better was at the. is a buddy of mine, Ephraim Mattos. He's a former Navy SEAL. We served together. Uh he un-. unbelievable story. Forget how you feel. about like geopolitics and stuff. He. he's a Navy SEAL, right? And I think he. went to Iraq when he was or in Syria or. something when he was a SEAL. We didn't. deploy together. He left the military. He left the SEAL. teams because he felt a calling to go. fight ISIS because the US military.

wasn't in his mind doing enough. And he. literally left the military and by. himself went to Iraq and fought ISIS. He. joined up with like faction military. groups and filmed it. >> And he And he filmed it. >> And he saved this little girl. There's a. video that made it all over the world. because this little girl was pinned down. outside of uh Raqqa in in Syria. I guess. it was Syria. Her whole family's been killed. They've. been lined up at a wall. They've all. been shot down. And it's just bodies.

against the wall. And Ephraim had found. out because he was working with this. underground group that was like fighting. ISIS and trying to save victims that. they had left this this pile and they. believed there was one little girl who. had survived. And she was laying under. the bodies of like her family. And so it's broad daylight. There are. all these trucks with like their black. ISIS flags and everything like parading. around the area. And and Ephraim goes up. there behind an Abrams tank. And he runs. on camera, picks this girl up under a.

hail of gunfire, and runs her back. behind the tank, and gets shot in the. process. He gets shot. And he saves this. girl's life. And so I told his story of he was the. guy that I when I was in training for. the in buds. [laughter]. This is actually a very humbling moment. that Ephraim and I are connected. In the early part of SEAL training, uh. there's this test you got to do. Um I. think it's called uh a lifesaving. It's. just called lifesaving. It's It's It's. It's seems like not a big deal, but it's. brutal. You have to jump in the water.

and and like the way a lifeguard is. trained, you kind of do a lifeguard save. of of your instructor. But they pick. like the 6 ft 8 beast who's going to. fight you in the water. And they refer. to it as like the puking evolution cuz. there's no way to do it without like. just totally being gassed. >> And you're on no sleep. >> Oh, this is this is like a day after. Hell Week. When you've been up for like. a week. And so because technically you. have to pass this lifeguarding test. Anyways, I get out of the water after failing my. various attempts. I eventually passed. it. And like everyone's just done.

attempts and everyone's miserable. And. we're all like shivering on the pool. deck. And I'm like dramatically heaving. Like. >> [gasps]. >> Like as I've just I've just done the. test. I'm just really like hamming it up. to make sure everyone knew how hard I. tried. And Ephraim just goes, "SHUT THE. FUCK UP.". >> [laughter]. >> WOW. THE. >> And he like got in trouble for even. speaking out of turn, but he's like he. was like, "Shut the fuck up. It's hard. for everyone." And I was like, "Oh.". >> That's a good lesson. >> Right. And I was like, "Yep. Stop.

performing. Like stop performing your. drama.". Um but I I open the episode with with. that little story and then this And. Ephraim, by the way, is like. the most like non You wouldn't think, "Wow, that dude would drop everything. and go fight ISIS." He's like this. totally normal guy. I mean, he's very. skilled, like an incredible shot, like. tactically a brilliant guy, but just the. most normal dude. Just like doesn't. swear. He doesn't cuss. Just Just a. normal dude. Super low-key. And I told.

his story and and he actually started. this charity called Operation Stronghold. Rescue, where he goes to conflict zones. like with no help from any government. and like rounds up support from locals. that are often like family and stuff. And just like does guerrilla missions to. often save people that are like in the. middle of genocides and like mass. killings and stuff. And he's saved so. many people. He films it all, but he had. no funding cuz he has no idea how to do. it. And I I do this video. This is going. to make me sound so lame.

We do this video where I have this big. call to action at the end like go. support Ephraim. He has this thing. Stronghold Rescue. It's a great charity. His funding jumped. I think it's like to. millions of dollars now and it's like. largely on the strength of him and his. story, but this was the mouthpiece. And. so this story goes mega viral. It's got. like so many views. Demonetized. >> Oh, why? >> I don't know. >> Bodies? >> Probably. >> Probably. >> But uh. I I you're doing them This is that makes. me sound so lame, but it's like this is. a video that was probably it would have. made hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And it's like none. Uh But But the upshot is it was so cool. with Ephraim. It was like the amazing. silver lining. So I I Anyways, it's just. like that's that's the nature of the. beast though, you know? Like. >> Does Zefron still do that? Can we still. support the charity? >> Oh, yeah. >> How does he get through the red tape. overseas with doing that? >> Dude, I don't know. At this point, he's. like connected with like parts of the. world that only you get connected if. you're in this world. But he is like, you know, a fiercely like religious, just very driven guy who is just like I.

mean, I honestly, he's the guy that's. probably going to die in a hail of. gunfire saving somebody's life. And like. this is his calling. Like he's just. I'll like talk to him. He's like, "Oh, I'm in Cambodia right now." I'm like, "Of course you are, you know?" But he's. he's so chill. Like he came to I I did a. show a couple years ago and then. Massachusetts and he like showed up. unannounced for it. And he's like he. like waited in line to like come up and. see me. I'm like, "Dude, Zefron! >> [laughter]. >> Like what the hell, dude?".

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archetype to those that like join the. military, especially special operations, but it's like the people I've I've met. in the SEAL teams, which is just a. little part of special operations, are. some of the most interesting and just. brilliant people. Like there was this. guy was like this total like just like. skinny goofy guy, like just looks like I. weighs 100 lb kind of guy. He's like got. this scraggly beard. And but he he was gifted at at.

everything. Everything. Didn't matter. what it was. He would be the best at it. He set the course record for our There's. a shooting a shooting course that we do. in in Mississippi that like for the. history of the Navy SEAL teams, like. every Navy SEAL goes and does the. shooting course. So it's like the best. shooters of one of the most elite groups. in the military, this is where they. train. And at the end of their block of. training, they do the shooting course. He goes and blows it away. He sets the. record. >> Blows it blows it away. Like he he he.

beat the instructors. He's like, "Oh. yeah, man, like whatever." Like he he. one time we're like in the gym, we're. talking about who can deadlift the most. weight. He doesn't lift He does not lift. any weights, zero weights. And like 400. was on the bar and he's like, "Oh, I can. do that." Goes out deadlifts 400 lb. Like traditional. He he like picked up skateboarding while. we're in Afghanistan and there's nowhere. to skateboard. It's like rocks, but. there was this little strip of of. linoleum in our crappy gym we had and he. like quickly learned how to like 360. flip and like front side flip, like.

immediately. >> Anyone can do it. >> Yeah, no. he became a professional wakeboarder. just like on on the side over one. summer. He's like, "Yeah, I picked it. up." He's like competing in wakeboarding. competitions. >> I love people like that. >> Dude, he's just but there are just. people out there that are just like so. amazing and you see them a lot in in. special operations actually. It's pretty. cool. >> I think all operators are a little. crazy. Little little tweaked. >> Yeah, one of my buddies this dude. he he was just a total adrenaline junkie. and he he was just known for just like. getting hurt all the time. He also he uh.

he was a dog handler and the dogs are. like amazing. They're terrifying. They're Belgian Malinois. I don't know. if you're familiar with these dogs. Just. fierce animals. These are not normal. dogs and they're so well trained and. like he would bring his dog into my hut. in Afghanistan and the dog's like. looking at me and he'd look I'm I'm. going to go get something to eat and. then I'm just sitting in the room with. this dog that will not touch me but. it'll stare you down. But it'll stare me. down. But so we we had a skydiving block. where you're like one of the things.

you're taught is uh if you pull your if. you're under canopy. and even if the canopy is is degraded in. some way, if you can land it you don't. ditch it. You don't go to your reserve. because you know, your reserve might be. worse than your main. >> Right. >> And so you're taught you absolutely you. do not ditch if if you can land it. Even. if you're going to really hurt yourself. But the reality is when you're actually. under canopy and you're careening down. and you got some stuff going on, you. probably going to ditch it. Like that's. the reality of it. And so I remember.

there was one night where we did it's. called a wall locker jump. You have like. a 100 lbs of gear on. It was stupid pack. that you like dangle down by this long. cord. It's like it's a it's a joke. It's. what you would do with like a high. altitude jump where you need you need. every piece of kit for every. environment. It's designed to be like. we're going to give you all the stuff. and we're going to see if you can jump. And so it's like really sketchy to land. under the best of conditions. >> standing there while they're loading you. up and you're like, "Dude, how much?". >> Oh dude, it's a joke. >> What do I need all that for? You're an. idiot. >> Five flashlights? >> And he uh.

his shoot was all jacked up. And like. normally, we have radios that once. you're sort of low enough to the ground, you can call it in and be like, "Yo, I. have an issue." And we're in training. He doesn't call it in that he's got such. a can't He can only turn the shoot one. way. The other side is fully. compromised. And basically, the way. skydiving any parachute works is that. when you pull down on the toggles, it. flares your parachute and you slow. yourself down. It's really similar to. flying a plane, not that I've done it, but it's like flaring the wing slows you. down. And he basically couldn't flare.

his parachute. And he's he's torching. towards the ground. >> And you need to flare to land safely. >> Oh, dude. Torching. And all he did, and. it's night time, he can't even see the. drop zone, not even on night vision, just night time. And so he's blasting in. with his 100 lbs of gear, and he and he. just goes, "Coming in hot.". Blasts into the ground. I think he broke. a broke his ankle or something. Just got. up. He's like, "Yeah, whatever." But. like, me? I I am a Navy SEAL, and I. wouldn't have done that. I probably. would have ditched the main, but you. know, anyways, pretty funny guys.

>> I love those guys. Uh that was a good. segue. Something I wanted to ask you. Your old bio said, that's a quote, "Just. another number one world-ranked video. game player, >> [laughter]. >> turned philosopher, turned Navy SEAL, turned nonprofit CEO. Number one in the. world.". >> Yeah. >> At Skate. >> At Skate, yeah. >> true? Were you number one? >> So, the truth is is I was briefly ranked. in the top 30. >> Okay. >> And I know for a fact I was 30th, for. sure. But I only found out like after.

So, here's the story. So, Skate came out like in 2000 and. maybe like nine or eight or something. It's like. >> Are you grinding leaderboards while. flunking out of UMass? >> Yeah, same same time frame. >> Nice. Perfect time frame. >> [laughter]. >> Uh and so I I I would actually get super. stoned, and I would play Skate. [laughter]. And I would sit in my mom's basement, and I would just play Skate. And so, it. used to be like, you know, Tony Hawk's. Pro Skater was the precursor, and it was. like left square up circle was sort of.

how you did tricks. But on Skate, it was. the first time that everything was done. with the two joysticks. Like, all tricks. were just slight variations of the. joystick. And so, anybody can flick the. joysticks around and and do random. tricks. But to be precise required a lot. of practice. And so, the game that you. played online for Skate is you it's a. sort of like horse in basketball, where. like somebody sets a trick and you got. to match it or you get a letter. It's. it's s k a t e. And again, anybody can do some random. trick, but can you do a trick on.

command? And it's very it's. >> Right. Right. >> And I became like savant-level good at. doing these tricks. And I had I am not. doing this to set records. I didn't even. know like this is early my playing. online for any game. So, I'm not. thinking at all about like how good I am. at this game. But I after playing for quite a while, I. began to notice I think it actually was. on Skate 2. I didn't even notice on. Skate 1. Skate 1 I I crossed. Skate 2 I. was doing the same thing.

I I used to I used to get on with people. that I knew were really good, and I. would like intentionally give up letters. to make it more challenging for myself. So, I would like and they and it pissed. people off, but I'm like I don't care. >> Hockey. >> One day, I open up my PlayStation, and. I'm just I noticed that there's always. these little like mail icons in the top. right corner of my thing. And I I just I. don't I never thought about it. Didn't I. I've been playing video games since I. was like nine. I I'm like an offline. gamer other than Skate, you know? And I.

was like, "What is I've always wondered. what that is." And so, I open it up, and. there are like. probably thousands. Just so many. messages. I I held the scroll down. button. It's like. >> [snorts]. >> and it just kept on going all the way. down. >> to you mostly? >> Mostly people people telling me how much. they hated me. Do you suck? But it was. people being like, "You're the number. one world ranked player. Like, you're. terrible. Like, I couldn't beat you, man. You're not as good as like the. other guys." But it All these references. to me being the best player in the. world. And I'm like, "What?".

>> Oh, you didn't know? >> I didn't know. And so I And I had I had. invitations from EA not to be like, "You're going to join the skate team.". It was like, "Do you want to play the. next beta for the next skate game to. give us your But it it months after the. fact. I've missed I've missed the boat. And I I pulled leader board. I think it. was like 29th or 30th. But it's like of. the world. And they only show the top. 50. And there's like probably at least, you know, several hundred thousand if. not a million people playing this game. And then it actually was funny. I I. didn't really enjoy playing the game.

because no longer is it really about. fun. It became like, "Well, now I got to. maintain this ranking now.". >> That's an interesting personality. [laughter] point because it came back. around again. >> Yeah, dude. >> I just want to make videos and then you. you crushed it and you're like, "Oh, now. the pressure's on.". >> Dude, it's true. It's It's It It became. a job. >> fun anymore. >> That works. >> It is, but it's. >> different kind It It was It's It's a. job. It's a job. It's like that video. game became a job. And so look, I could. only play it really and enjoy it, I. should say, offline. And I was like.

exceptionally good at it, but like the. fun was that I got to beat people. always. I never lost. I just never lost. I mean, I did, but it was like so rare. that I would give people four letters. and just like I'd spend an hour just. like never giving up my final letter cuz. it was fun. And then that was it. It was. just That's what I did. And then it was. like, "Well, wait a minute. Now I have. to maintain it." It just It wasn't fun. anymore. Actually, that was one of the When I got. to Buds SEAL training, they make you. give your fact. And that was my fact. >> That was your fact? Skate? >> I was like I was briefly top-ranked in.

an obscure video game 10 years ago. >> Oh, you had to get wedgies for that. Like, that's That's it. >> This [laughter] one saved the kids from. >> like, "Oh, I was a national champion. wrestler, D1." And I'm like, "I briefly. was really good at a weird skateboarding. game.". >> That's hilarious. Um the nonprofit stuff. is interesting. What was the operator association? Were. you kind of mentoring young people going. into the. >> Yeah, dude. I I appreciate you. Yeah, there was a period of time. Uh so, I I. was medically retired from the Navy in.

end of 2017. Uh and then, you know, Mr. Ballen, you. know, the fight the viral moment, the. posting of the the hiker video happened. in very early 2020. There's like, you. know, 2-year window there where I I did. stuff. And what I did is I I in an. effort to to find myself a job, I um I. wound up connecting with some sort of. random people in New York uh that were. like business people. One of which is a. great guy, this guy Jordan Selek, uh who's this former investment banker. turned entrepreneur. And And like it.

just so happened he was sort of trying. to help his buddy who was a a fighter. pilot who was like trying to find his. way in the world. We connected on. LinkedIn. It's a whole thing. It turned. into Jordan, who's like this master. networker. He says to me, he's like, "Dude, if you want a job, you can. totally just like go apply for jobs. Or. really, you should just like network. Like meet people. Because you've no idea. how powerful that is." One thing leads. to another, and before long, like Jordan. and I are like organizing this like. networking event in New York for like. I'm going to bring all the transitioning.

Navy SEALs that I know. There's many. Or. guys that have gotten out that don't. have a job yet. And then like Jordan's. going to bring all his business. connections. And we like have these. events. And so, we have like this inaugural. event in New York City in like May of. 2018 or whatever it was, 2017, 2018. And. um. I went to be a participant to like go. and meet employers. But like naturally, I I sort of MC'd the event. Hey guys, we're going to get started. I got my. suit, you know, I just bought. And And. people assumed that I had that was my. job. It's a nobody. No employer talked.

to me. And I was like, "What the hell? Like I I I helped organize this. Nobody. wants a job?" But it came out later. They're like, "Oh, we just assumed this. was your job, that this is what you do.". Uh that turned into a charity, Elite. Meet. You didn't bring it up, but it's. sort of in tandem with Operators. Association. I and Jordan, uh we were a a team for a. couple of years, uh. and we put on like, I don't know, five. or six of these like pretty pretty. decent size like events, a couple. hundred people, a bunch bunch of. veterans got jobs. It was my job. My job.

became fundraising. I'll be honest, that. was my job. And it was like phone call. fundraising. It was like micro. donations. It was It was a a slice of. humble pie because it's like if you want. to ask people for money on on every. single day. Like it's People don't like. that. Some people do. Some people don't. And and I did that. for a while. But then towards the. end of like 2018, 2019, um. I was looking for other things to do. I. think that I'm someone that does well. when I have something new to chase a. little bit. And one area that was just.

sort of naturally already happening is. when you have been a Navy SEAL, it's. probably true of like Green Berets, of. any sort of like select any any group in. the military that has a selection that's. required to pass in order to join that. group, there's all these people that. want to be a Navy SEAL, that can read. all they want about the selection. course, what goes into it, what do I. need to do to prepare for it, but. there's nothing that really beats. speaking to an actual Navy SEAL. Especially like a a relatively current.

one. And so it's just sort of a thing. that when you get out of the military, if you have a social media account of. any kind, or if you if you are publicly. available in any way, aspiring Navy SEALs are going to come. They're going to come calling. And they. want to ask you questions, and they're. super respectful. And so. I was getting hit with a lot of. questions in virtue of being the CEO of. Elite Meet. I was sort of a. public-facing Navy SEAL, um which had its own challenges. But. like I had people hitting me up a lot.

about people as an aspiring Navy SEALs. asking me questions and I wanted to. centralize it. and the guy that I was working with at. the time, not Jordan, but this other guy. Zach who was a Green Beret, he was. helping me with Elite Meet. We were like, "Hey, like why don't we. create like a Patreon channel? So it. becomes sort of like if you want access. to us on like a really personal level, like it was very cheap, but it was like. people need to show they're committed to. it, like pay five bucks or whatever. But. then we have like this sectioned off.

group of people that we can like. train with. We can give them I I was. making podcasts like four, five times a. week for these guys. I was like pouring. my heart and soul out cuz some of these. guys went on to become Navy SEALs and it. was like really cool. Um but that that. was I only did Operators Association for. like eight or nine months before. one, I felt like I had sort of given all. the stuff I could give and also my. currency as a Navy SEAL was dwindling. cuz things change quickly in the teams, the training changes. Like what I went.

through was probably comparable to what. you do now, but it's not the same. And YouTube was really becoming my main. focus and so I. handed everything to Zach and I said go. forth with Operators Association and he. still does. He's still running it now. and he's more of like the. bring the guys to a location and like. put them through literal physical. training and it's like really grueling. and people love it. So that sort of. transitioned into that, but the logo for. Operators Association, it's actually me. in Afghanistan. It's my silhouette of me. in Afghanistan with a backpack on like. about to make entry into some building.

And so that my legacy is I'm still on. the logo, but I I'm I'm not involved. with it anymore. >> What would you have told a 19-year-old. John Allen come and ask advice? >> Oh man. I was lost as a 19-year-old. I uh. So I grew up in Quincy, Mass which is. just south of Boston, Massachusetts. Very successful family, like maybe not. like financially hugely successful, but. definitely not hurting, you know, we. were like firmly middle class and.

you know, my dad's a successful reporter. and my mom's like she's a she's a. part-time freelance journalist, she's a. librarian, but like really well-spoken, really sweet people. >> You had an unfair advantage in your. family with what you do. >> I do. I mean, I my my I have multiple. Pulitzer Prize winners in my family, which definitely helped. Um. but I uh. I had the aptitude, I should say, to. like be successful academically, which. was a big thing in my household, like. being a being an academic achiever, and. I I just didn't want to do that. I think.

I just wanted to like carve my own path, but like my form of rebellion was quite. was like just literally being a bad. student. As if that would like get me. somewhere. >> Why? >> In a funny way. >> an asshole? >> No, actually not really. No. >> Were teachers like, "John, you could do. better than this.". >> Oh, yeah, constantly. Yeah. Yeah. Like. like, "You're not applying yourself. You're literally just not. You're not. doing anything." It's like skipping. school. >> Yeah, like yeah. And and I think also my. my sister, Evan, my older sister, she.

sort of was similar. She skipped school. constantly. Like good surprise, Evan. Skip school. Prize, yeah. Constantly. But Evan, I mean, truly I. I would argue that it that she she. probably has near genius-level. intellect, just. pure intellect, pure computing brain. power. Like she when she was like 12, she without telling anyone wrote a story. about the Salem witch trials, but from. the perspective of like a a daughter of.

someone who was being accused. Fiction. Like the daughter of like somebody being. accused of being a witch, but it was. like from the perspective of like this. child. And I think she's like in bed and. she's like the 1600s, you know, and it's. It was a short story competition. She. enters it and she fucking wins. >> That's a great approach to that story. >> It was It was brilliant. And And so she. wins and so she like told us like, "Hey, so I wrote under pseudonym and I won. this competition. I can't say it's me. cuz it's 18 or older.". >> Oh. >> Yeah, and so she's 12 and she's like won.

it. Uh but Evan, so she would like skip. school all the time, like all the time. And she just like crushed cigarettes and. just was like a total like loser, but. like she. was so so so smart that like teachers. couldn't they like couldn't fail her cuz. she could come in and like ace every. test. She was better than everybody else. and so she sort of like was pushed. through high school, but like I didn't. have that. I had like that you could. probably be a pretty good student, but. you're you're just sort of skipping. school and like the class clown sort of.

guy. Um but I uh. I my sort of like for my my the moment. that things really changed for me and I. realized that my tendency towards sort. of. like bad behavior was in part because I. didn't really have a goal um was when I. was uh I went. >> [laughter]. >> I I barely graduated high school in the. sense that I probably could have failed. on truancy alone. Like I just didn't go. But I graduate and I didn't apply to. college or I should say I I haphazardly.

like half applied. Left some of my. applications were incomplete. >> Uh your parents aren't on your ass? >> They were though. And that's the only. reason they came. I I I didn't really I didn't really. But. my mom, who is, you know, she's a. brilliant writer and she actually was. the writer for our podcast for the first. year. Um. she wrote my essay that I that and she. sent it off as me to to UMass Amherst. Uh and so again, my grades are terrible, like it's it's all bad. My mom writes my.

essay and we send it off. And UMass got. in touch with me and they're like, "Hey, you know, your grades are really not what we're. looking for, but my god, that essay was just brilliant." She. wrote this essay about uh it was really. short, too, which is sort the the. brilliance of the essay. It was about my. my best friend, this guy Ray. Uh he he. lived down the street from me in Quincy, and we were like thick as thieves as. kids, but like he came from a completely. broken household, like in in all the.

worst ways, like drug abuse, like you. name it, it's like the worst stuff. happens in that house. And he would come. to our house, and it was like he was. another a son, he was a brother, he was. beloved, he come on vacations with us, but he always had to go back home. And. it was always bad for him. It was like. he Every time you saw him over the. years, it's like he's got a new tattoo, and it's like clearly not professionally. done, and he's like 14. He's got bruises. on him. He's got track marks, you know, things are going bad and worse and worse. for him. And, you know, he he completely. fell into the trap of drug addiction. He.

had a kid very young. Um. >> Is this the guy who robbed your house? >> And then he robbed my house. Yeah, he. robbed my house, and I remember. uh we hadn't seen him in a long time. He. let his friends in the side door, and he. stole some stuff, some pretty valuable. stuff. But like we knew it was him cuz there. was nobody else that would have like. we'd seen him that day, and he's so down. on his luck. And by this point he's not. really in my life anymore. But he left me this voicemail after like. this It was like maybe the same day.

And he wasn't saying that he did it, but. he was like apologizing cuz he knew like. I'd broken the sacred trust that you've. given me. But it's like we we know your. life is broken, you know. Uh but he ends it he OD'd and he died. when I was 21. Um but, you know, before. that, when the essay was written, it was about the last time we saw Ray. And it was it was actually the day he. robbed our house. Uh. he came to the house, and he was like. lingering, and it was almost like he was. looking at the house like he just wanted. to go inside and like.

be like it used to be. But like his his. buddies in the car was like the the. music blasting, you know, and it's like. smoke coming out the windows, and it's. like he knows he's. he's got to go with his friend, you. know, he's got to go to the life that he. doesn't want to be in anymore. And my. mom described, and this is true, I didn't go out and say bye to him. And. I didn't even tell my mom why. I just. like stayed in the I I knew he was out. there. I could see him through the. window, but I didn't go He wanted me to. like wave to him, and I just wouldn't do. it. I didn't go to the door. I just sort.

of stayed in the house. >> Were you angry at him? >> I had never expressed my feelings to. anybody about it. It was like I had. drifted so far from him, and I wasn't. mad. I just like I knew like we are no. longer compatible. Like our lives have. so diverged. And so my mom wrote the essay about him, and it was just this contrast of like. what happens from when your life is. broken from the start. And it was just. really good. And so I got into college. largely on the strength of that essay. Um and I proceeded to shit it all away.

Uh I all just on stupid stuff. Like I. was in this. There are these dorms at UMass Amherst. The There's all these sections of the. campus. It's a huge undergraduate. school. There's like 30,000 students or. something. Um there's like five or six. sections that are that are the the. housing areas, and one of them is called. Southwest. And Southwest is like the. place to be if you want to like party. >> We all had those quads. >> That That's the one. And it And the. reason for that was, you know, it sort. of had that reputation for a bunch of.

reasons, but a big one is it had these, I think, five. like mini skyscrapers that were like. 26-story. kind of sort of narrow buildings that. were just packed with students. And the. buildings were all on top of each other. And like this is like Western. Massachusetts, where there's like really. nothing around. This is like This is it. And it's It had a reputation for that's. where you go to just be an an a. knucklehead, right? And I had to be in. Southwest, you know, and I was so I got. a dorm in the towers. Uh and I uh. I had like 30-some-odd violations my.

first semester. These are stupid stuff. Like. >> doing? >> My my roommate, Jake, who I didn't know. He was awesome, awesome dude. He's like, "Hey, bro. Like, I'm going to. I'm going home for the weekend.". And I was going to stay at the school. This is like This is an example of. things I would do. I'm going to go home for the weekend. My. My mom's sending me a reading pillow. One of those big like heavy pillows you. you sit up against. >> Oh, okay. >> Like a big pillow. He's like, "Would you. mind just like cuz they can't leave it.

in the the box. You got to get it and. bring it up." And I was like, "Of. course. Of course I'll get your pillow.". >> [laughter]. >> And so he goes home for the weekend and. his pillow arrives and I bring it up and. I shred it to pieces. >> [laughter]. >> Why? What's the matter with you? >> Threw the fluff all over the. >> [laughter]. >> It was like there. >> It's a pillow. >> No reason for it. >> No reason. >> No. And so like there's that one time we. we would go to the. the cafeteria, the the amazing dining. halls at UMass. These are huge dining. halls.

And they they had like, you know, soda. machines like you know, and and there's. like this mixer that like for orange. juice. They don't put like tons of. orange juice into it. It's like there's. like the syrup and the water that mixes. and you make the juice. And I was like, "Dude, let's get some of that syrup and. we can like mix it with water up in our. rooms and we can have juice." And I. realized when I got up there to my my. little room up in the 26th floor that. like there's really no good way to do. this. You need like, you know, industrial tools to mix the syrup. And.

so naturally, I lopped the top off of. >> get the syrup? >> We just stole it. >> it. >> And we like we just like, you know, dumped it out in the hallway. And it was. so sticky that they couldn't really. clean it up. They had like. professionally clean the carpets. >> Jesus. >> And we I had like 20 some odd noise. violations. Like I weed was constantly. coming out of the door. Constantly. getting written up for that. Uh. >> You wanted to get in trouble. >> I I think there was an element of like I. just I really just didn't care. And then.

it all came. to a head when at the end of the. semester mind you also this whole time. I'm telling my my folks things are going. great. Things are going really I'm telling you. what I really taking a liking to college. things are really good. I'm getting. pretty good grades. You know, I'm not. I'm not I'm literally not going to. class. Getting pretty good grades things are. going pretty good like it's going. horrible they don't know that. And so at the end of the semester. our football team who admittedly no one.

really cared about like they're. there's some guys that have gone pro. like it's a big deal but like the school. is just not really a football school. like it's like yeah I don't know we have. a football team. But we we like find out cuz no one was. paying attention to this team that they. had made it to the finals. They were. like they were going to play Appalache. State for the final and whoa right we. find this out wow I didn't even know and. they're not even home they're like away. and they played the game on like the. UMass TV cuz this is like pre-streaming. this is 2006.

2007. And so I remember like for whatever. reason it was like everyone especially. in Southwest was like great we're just. going to we're going to watch this game. like. let's go UMass I hope we win this game. And they lost fair and square good game. they lost and for whatever reason. it was like there was just this energy. in Southwest people were like this. doesn't sit right with me we shouldn't. have lost this game that I didn't care. about until 6 hours ago and. >> good idea?

>> I look out the window of my little these. stupid little windows that barely open. and there was just people starting to. like mass up in the center of these five. high rises there's like this little. pyramid you can sit on it's like you. know the size of a football field and. just people were just like coming out of. their rooms and just sort of milling. about all the lights are on they have. these these they have riot lights at. UMass cuz riots are a thing there and. then the riot lights go on well before. anyone's doing anything but what it did. is it was like, "Oh, shit. Like, are we. rioting? Is this a riot?" Is this a.

riot? >> And like, people are like, "What's going. on here?" And then suddenly this. >> This kid [laughter] This kid he climbs. up on the awning of our of our cafeteria. that overlooked this this area where we. were amassing. And he yells, "Put this on YouTube!" And. he runs and leaps off the roof, expecting, I guess, people to be like, "We'll catch you." No one caught him. >> It's Western Mass. We're not catching. you. >> He blasts to the ground, clearly breaks. one of his legs, and the crowd just. goes, "Gah!". And it was madness. It literally was.

like that kicked off like a storm of. just chaos. People are picking up rocks, throwing them through windows. I'm. completely sober, completely sober. Again, only recently invested in this. game that I didn't even know was a. [laughter] thing. And I was fully. committed to that riot. Oh, was I a part. of that riot? And like, the riot police. show up, like the mounted riot police. Hundreds. >> Did you vandalize property? >> I Well, but I could have. >> Statute of limitations expired.

[laughter]. >> Oh, yeah. Firing rocks all over the. place. Just complete debauchery sober. [snorts]. Like, 100% sober. >> So, the cops come over, they have hats. and bats? >> It's so bad. And they brought their. rubber pellets. >> Oh, no. >> And uh very quickly, the crowd, once the. the riot police showed up, like the. crowd sort of began to to dwindle. And. there was a hardcore group of like, maybe 50 people, and I was one of them. I had I had taken my shirt off and. wrapped it around my head because of the. CS gas in the air. And I had been shot.

like by the the pellets and so many. times. And like, I just stayed out. there. Like, I couldn't go in. I was. like so enamored with like evading the. police. Like, running all over the. place. And like, everybody else is going. in. I was just still firing rocks all. over the place and just staying out. And. I finally like, I go in my room. I I I. like I could tell if I stayed out any. longer I'm going to I'm going to get. arrested. And I go in my my dorm, I run. up my room, and "Man, that was fucking. awesome." And I I my pocket. >> up. >> Oh, dude, I was stoked. >> what was I thinking? >> No, this [laughter] was great. And then.

my pockets, I had pellets in my pockets. because I've been shot so many times. with these rubber bullets that just by. probability alone they had peppered the. top of my pocket and like landed in my. pockets. I had like pellets in my. pocket. >> Welts on your skinny bare chest? >> Oh, dude, all over me, covered in welts. And I'm just like, "Awesome." Go to bed. Yep, no problem. Next day I wake up and. it's like there's this haze over the. campus, like there's just fog that. rolled in and like it looked like just a. war zone. There's broken glass. everywhere. And I'm like, "Damn." And. like that day we started to hear, like,

"Hey, uh they have uh this website, the. UMass police. They were running a video. and pictures of everybody out there.". And there's this anonymous page where. there's just pictures of the riot. And. anybody can identify anybody in these. pictures. And like that day, day like 12. hours later, people were being escorted. off the campus and expelled. >> Yep. >> I was fucking hated on my floor. And I I. immediately found. >> were already hated. >> Oh, already hated. >> Because of the sound of your voice. >> violations. People like, "Who the fuck.

is this freshman idiot who's just. causing problems for. >> People were looking for you, like, "I. bet that John was [laughter] in there.". >> Yeah, find him. And I found I think it. was like two pictures that were like, I. that's me. And so, amazingly, no one. named me, at least not yet. But it was right at the end of the. semester, and grades come out, and I had. a 1.016. You know, a little lower than my folks. expected. >> Mhm. >> And I also, due to the number of. violations, they had this rule that even. if your violations are minor, if you I. think it's like 20 in a semester, you.

are banned from being in the dorms. You. You can still attend the school, but you. must live off campus. And so, all at. once, my parents were told, "Well, your. son has a 1.016 GPA, so he's going to be. put on academic probation if he can even. continue here. And he must live off. campus, which is like imagine making the. decision to send your kid off campus. He's just been doing all this and so my. dad comes up to meet with the dean. thinking he's going to like talk it. through with him and it's going to be. fine and he realizes pretty quickly that. the dean's like, "No, you're going to.

live off campus and you're going to get. your grades up or you're going to leave. the school." And so we have this like. really stark meeting and my dad's like. furious. >> Does your dad know how hard it is to get. thrown off of Amherst? Like you have to. beg to get off that. >> say he's like, "This is unbelievable.". >> Yeah. >> And I. we left and we're sitting on this bench. and I'm like, "Fuck, like I now I. realize this is this is pretty bad." And. I'm like, "Dad, uh. also, do you see all this damage here? There's a pretty big riot here and I. explained that like I'm in these. pictures. It's a matter of time before I.

get named and expelled.". And he's like, "You have to withdraw from school and. come home." And so amazingly, I I. withdraw to avoid expulsion, basically. And I go home and I'm literally I move. into my mom's basement. My parents are. split. I move my mom's basement and I. actually remember and this is the change. that happened to 19-year-old me. I'm in my mom's basement and I was so. fucking mad at my parents. >> at your parents? >> Yeah, like, "How dare you? I I have I.

have my friends at school. You took this. from me.". But quickly, I don't know what it was. There wasn't like a a specific moment, but like it it just set in like, "Dude, no one fucking cares about you. Like. you're a dude who had every opportunity. This is entirely architected by you.". And my mom, to her credit, was just. ruthless when I came home. I come home, there's zero sympathy. She's a very. sweet woman. She's like a librarian. She's like, "You're going to pay rent.

and if you don't, you can leave. If you. want to go to college, great. You can. figure that out. All on you. You want to. be an adult? You want to fuck around? Like go for it. You can stay. >> with my mom. >> Brutal. >> Brutal. >> She kept a note card of all the money I. owed her. Oh my god. I We had a. whiteboard. Yeah, down to how much. toothpaste I used. And but it was really. important for me and it cleaned my act. up real quick and I I set my sights on. first I'm going to go to school locally, get my grades up and I ultimately went. back to UMass Amherst and I I did. graduate. But it also as I began.

reshaping my life, getting a job, getting good grades, being diligent, getting high and playing skate and. ranking in the world, doing all those. things I It's when I fell in love with. like the idea of being a SEAL in part. because it was like it's this one place. that I had found where truly. just about anyone can try out. You need. to be an American citizen. There's some. medical requirements, but for the most. part it's like. eh, if you're in decent enough shape, you're a you're a citizen, you can go. try out, you know, even now like women. can do it, too.

But like only a handful of people get. through. And I met some SEALs that were. like a lot of guys that become SEALs. often have call it resumes that look. like mine where it's like you fucked. everything up. >> Hold on, is this art camp day? Is this the year you went to art camp. and talked to the guys in the shed? >> dude, that is the art camp day. >> what happened there. You said there were. some CIA Hey, guys there. >> Oh, yeah, dude. >> going on in that in that hut? >> So yeah, actually So I I I got my grades. up with school so I got I kind of got. back on my mom's good terms. She stopped.

squinting at you? A little bit because. it was like I I got a job. I was I was. scanning IDs at the YMCA at the gym at. like the 5:00 a.m. crew. I I I didn't. have a car so I would get up at like. 3:00 and I would bike on my little. 10-speed to the YMCA 3 mi away. I I. looked at it as like I looked at it as. like I want this to suck for myself. I. want to like earn this. And so I'm. biking at 3:00 in the morning. um and I do my little scanner job and. then after my like 3 hours of work I.

would hop in the train, go to UMass. Boston, which was very easy to get into. at the time and I. I was getting my act together, right? And so after three semesters of good. behavior, of paying rent, of being like. a high-functioning kid, I began thinking. about what I was going to do after. college. Cuz now it's like, okay, I can. probably graduate. I'm going to graduate. from college, right? >> Now, hold on. When you When you was. being a good kid, was it going against. your grain or were you really turning it. around inside your brain? >> No, I I felt good about it. >> Cuz sometimes you have to act the part.

before it sticks. >> I. I was embarrassed. I think I And I don't. even know I don't know it was like I. came home and I was mad from being. brought home from UMass Amherst, but. then something quickly clicked that that. this was my fault. And I suddenly sort. of saw myself for the first time as like. a really ignorant, entitled little brat. who had gotten away with acting like an. idiot for a long time. And like. literally my mother wrote my essay that. got me into that school. And my parents. paid for it. Like, what are you doing?

It was like embarrassing. And so I think. I wanted to not be a fuck up anymore, like genuinely. And so as I'm turning my. act around, and not even like within. like of several months, I'm like back on. track. I'm like training. Like like I'm. working out. I'm like I'm like doing. stuff that like shows I'm being. responsible. >> studying for SEALs at this point, right? >> Not really. I was Not really. I And this. It sort of all happened at once. I'm. like maybe a sophomore {slash} maybe I. was a junior at this point, but it was. like No, I was a sophomore in college.

I'm still at UMass Boston, so I'm still. living at home, but I'm like, okay, like. I sort of turned my act around a little. bit. I I was thinking about what was. next, you know? Like I knew I would. graduate. I was studying philosophy. Really with not a clear shot for what I. would do. I just loved philosophy. I. loved thought experiments. Um and uh I. didn't really have a plan, but I a lot. of my buddies when I graduated high. school joined the Marines and they went. off to Iraq and Afghanistan. And you. know, I just I looked at that as.

incredibly honorable. Not so much. literally what they did, but just in a. time of war to volunteer is a big move, you know, one it doesn't matter what you. think about it. It's a big move. And I I. always sort of. I would find myself wishing that that. had been what I did in part because of. my fuck up and all that. And so service. was on my mind. I wanted to serve. I was. thinking about it. And I remember. talking to my mom who at this point. she's softened the way she treats me. She's back to being very very gentle. Jessie the librarian. And I was like,

you know, I'm thinking about uh. you know, the military like after after. college. I not I don't know how or what. exactly but I'm thinking about it. And she's like, "Oh, you should you. should talk to. They're they're sort of family friends. More specifically uh my mom's best. friend is this woman Susan. And Susan is. like a she's a close family friend. I've. known her for years. And I knew she had brothers who are. military. I didn't really know what they. did. And my mom's like, "Oh yeah, you. you should go talk. And I'm like, "Oh yeah.".

I was like, what do what do what do what. do they do? Like what do what do they do. in the military? >> You didn't absorb at this point that. SEALs don't really talk too much about. what they do. [laughter]. >> That didn't stick yet. >> She goes, "Actually, you know what? Uh. they're they're retiring. They they they. were Navy SEALs.". And I'm like, "What? The dudes I've like. seen at barbecues that are just like, 'Hey, what's going on guys?' Just like. non nonchalant." It like it didn't. compute and it was like so amazing. And. I'm like, "Oh my I've I've talked to. them. I I like know them but now it's. like I've seen them all over again.".

And my mom's like, "Actually, you know, John, they they were a part of SEAL Team. 6.". >> They were on 6? >> They were on 6 when 6 was like. doing everything. Like they were they. were like on Team 6 and I don't want to. totally give up who it is, but like. basically. they were like leading stuff on Team 6. when the war on terror began. So like, "Okay, special operations are going to. go do some of the gnarly combat that's. ever happened. They're the ones that are like leading.

it and they're for it. Like very. hardcore stuff. And [snorts] so I began like looking at. what it took to be a Navy SEAL and it. was like so cool. They're just just. cool. Had really no sense of what it. would really entail. He calls me. He's like, "You're going to. come up to to the camp up New. Hampshire.". >> Military camp or combat? >> No, like and I'm like, "Okay. All right, I will." And it's it's this is the day. of this is the days like pre- GPS. It's. like MapQuest directions. And so I. I tell my mom like I guess I'm going.

like some camp and she's like, "Oh, oh. the the it's Susan's Susan's art camp.". I'm like, "What?" "You're at the art. camp?" He made it seem like this was not. an art camp. This is like hardcore. I. don't know what he's doing. He talked. about shooting guns and stuff. Like I'm. pretty sure this is not art camp. And. and she's like, "No, no. It's it's. definitely her art camp." I'm like, "This is weird." So I put it in MapQuest. to go to the the camp out in New. Hampshire. And I'm driving there. following these directions and it's like. bringing me out into the the sticks. And. then I I get to the camp and it it looks.

like it's a beautiful kids camp. It's a. sunny day. There's literally kids. running around like playing with bubbles. and there's like it's a music camp and. it's beautiful. >> Oh, it's nice. >> And I and I go in there and I'm like I. find Susan who she she showed up in. fatigues. What did you. >> I was like in just gym clothes. I didn't. even know what I was going to do. >> And I just see this like gravel road. that like goes up and over a hill off. into the forest. Like I don't even know. what's up there and I'm like, "Okay.". And so I drive my car around and I'm. just like going up this rise and like. the road is just like going on and on. It's like deeper into the forest.

And it eventually comes to this clearing. and there's this like ramshackle plywood. hut that's just sitting like. conspicuously in the middle of this. clearing. And it Nobody would look at. that and think a professional built it. It's like children built this hut. But. it's huge. It's like this pretty big. space. And I park my car and like I get out, and I don't I don't even know what we're. doing here. I've been told to come to. the camp. That's it. And immediately when I got out of the.

car, I hear the sound of like men. bullshitting with each other in in in. the hut. These are not like teenagers. These are not These are fucking men that. are bullshitting. They're They're. They're laughing. They're It's a It's a. lot of them. And I'm like, fuck. I have to go in. there. Like, I'm so intimidated. And so, I'm like, all right, you got to. go. Like, I drove out here. You got to. go in. And so, I hear them talking. >> This is the first test right here. >> In a way, I kind of felt like that's. what it was. And so, I walk over, and it's gravel. Every step is so loud.

>> [laughter]. >> There's no soundproofing here. >> They surely heard you park your car. >> Oh, dude, yeah, of course. They knew. this was happening. And I walk over, and. I get to the the door, which has these. crappy hinges on it. And you can't see. through it. And as I also the door, and. then they just go silent inside. And I slowly open the hut. It's like, And there's no furniture inside. It's. just like a vacant space with all these. upturned buckets that like 10 or 12. dudes who were like some of the most. physically intimidating people I've ever. seen, who by the way, a lot of them were.

active-duty Team Six guys, that are just. sitting on these buckets. They're all. like chewing tobacco, and they all turn. and look at me. And one of them goes, "Who the fuck are you?". >> That's perfect. >> like, uh. I'm Jonathan. I'm I'm Jesse's son. And. then they said, "Oh, we don't know who. the fuck you are. Like, get in here.". And then they were like really cool. Uh. but dude, they they go up to this camp. It's It's sort of a not well-kept. secret, but like they'll bring guys up. there even though they're retired, and. they'll like take guys through some. shooting training, but it's sort of like.

crazy shit they do cuz it's not really. sanctioned. It's like, go out there. But. they'll bring guys that are like. like active-duty Team Six guys that go. out and train out there. And so, I had. the chance to like. chat with these guys. Some of them are. about to go like deployed to parts of. the world that like no one knows we're. in. And. on the one hand it was like holy shit, this is like a different species. I'm. not around normal people right now. Like. it was just. it's hard to even put into words how. impressed I was with these people. >> Sure.

>> But the other part of it that it was. like when I had my moment of. I now know I can't not at least try. I. had that moment when I sat down with. this guy who's a SEAL. He's an older. SEAL. He was he was in Beirut when it. was bombed, the famous Marine barracks. bombing. He was out there. So he's he's. written a couple of books. And he's the. guy that told me, he's like, you know, BUDS BUDS it sucks. You know, BUDS is. Basic Underwater Demolition SEAL. training. It's like SEAL boot camp. It's. it's brutal, you know, it's all those. things. But he's like, I'm telling you.

like. it's amazing. Like he described it as the best time. you never want to have again. And he's. like the people that make it, it isn't. that they're they're battling, oh boy, should I quit today or not? Cuz you can. quit at any time, you know. He's like the people that really want to. go, a lot of times they they they don't. really have an alternative. It's sort of. like they fucked their lives up or they. they had opportunities they squandered. or or whatever it is, but they have. something to prove, you know. And he's. like. a lot of the people that make it, they.

refer to it as a calling. That it's not it's not like today I've. decided to be a SEAL and I hope I don't. quit when I'm in training. It's like, no, I have to go try. >> to do it. >> I have to see if I stack up against. this. And as soon as it was put to me that. way, I realized that like. this is like the most incredible thing. I've ever like been around. And. I then went out and like shot AK-47s. with them and like they're telling me. their stories about BUDS and like. deployment and it's just so surreal. And. I came back from that trip and it was.

like 100%. I'm going to go become an ABC or more. specifically, I wasn't that sure of it. It was more like I for sure I'm going to. try. And it's going to be if I don't. make it, I I'm okay with that. I'm okay. with like didn't make the cut, but I'm. not going to go and see what happens. It's like. >> You knew you were going to make it. though. You just you feel like you're. going to make it. I could do this. >> I think that's true. And I would even. say like when I went out to Coronado for. training. and this is not this is pretty much. universal for the guys that make it. I never had a moment where I was like,

oh boy, am I going to quit today? I didn't. Did I have moments of pathetic weakness. of just embarrassing failure? Of course. Like there were moments of like horrible. failure. Like I I had like totally. humiliating moments in my training. But I never ever ever was like, hmm, I might quit. Better talk myself out of. it. Never came close. Never. And I there. are moments in buds that are so fucking. miserable. Like there we would do these.

like log carries where you're in and it. sounds so like oh, it's just a heavy. log, right? No, no. You've you're barely. sleeping. You're in the freezing ocean. all the time and then you would do I. think what what what do we call them? The elephant walk or something? Where. you and your your your swear your what. do they call your boat crew were. similarly sized people so long as the. class is big enough to afford you that. You hold this telephone pole that's not. even that heavy. It's a heavy pole, but. it's not as heavy as a true telephone. pole. But you hold it in in in your.

front like this. You can't hold it up. like this. You literally can't hold it. down here cuz you'll drop it. And you're. walking on really soft sand in the heat. And you're all walking in line and. you're just walking for a mile this way. and then you go up and down the berm a. few times then a mile back. You are. imagine holding any weight with your. biceps. just basically non-stop. It becomes If. you haven't done this, the pain you feel. in your biceps. if you just hold it long enough is. excruciating. And there are instructors.

that walk with you for each of these. logs that are just like waiting cuz it's. considered at times they'll consider it. quitting. If you drop the log and. they're like you you you you bitched out. of this, it's called a non-verbal DOR. Drop you quit. See you. And so you you basically have. to suffer constantly. It's like this. out-of-body level of suffering. But you do it like all the time in buds. And you slowly come to realize that it's. always horrible. But you can do it. If you have like the.

constitution and the guys that stuck. around. the most random group of guys. It was. like a guy who had never swam before. He. literally hadn't swam. And he's like, "Yeah, I'm trying out for buds." Dude, this is a huge swimming component. Yeah, I'll figure it out. And he did. We had a. guy who he went to boot camp. This guy's. incredible by the way. He he walked on. to the um. Indiana's football team like as like a. 23-year-old or something. Like it was. unheard of. after the teams. He went to boot camp.

Didn't know what a Navy SEAL was. And. today's age this is doesn't happen. Doesn't know what a SEAL was. But they. do offer to all the people who are in. naval boot camp. Hey, do you If anybody. wants to go take a physical screening. test for for the SEAL teams, you're. welcome to do it today cuz the buds guys. are doing that. You can go do it. Nobody. does it. He's like, "All right, I'll. I'll go do that." Has no idea what he's. getting himself into. Passes the PST. Goes to buds. Never fails a single test. Becomes a Navy SEAL. And he's amazing. I. think he went to DEVGRU Team 6 for a.

while. I don't even know if he did. He. gets out. He's like he's he's turned. into like the Incredible Hulk, too. He. put on so much muscle. All natural. He's. huge. And he's like, "Yeah, I'm I'm I'm. I'm going to go play football." Never. played football in his life. Walks on to. the Indiana team. It's just like. >> You said out-of-body. That's. interesting. I think a lot of the guys. who make it learn disassociation. Almost. like meditation. Like. that's my body. I'm. I'm not really there. I just let it. happen. >> Definitely. >> Are there guys who just sail through. buds? >> Yeah. And and there's actually there's a. name for it. There's uh it's first time.

every time. And there are other guys. that like never fail a test, and it's a. real thing. Like I I have There's. There's a buddy of mine. He got this thing called BGE or VGE. It's a It's a stomach virus, and he got. it right at the end So, in SEAL training and buds, it's it's 6. months long, and like the really brutal. physical part of it is like the first 2. months. It's called first phase, and. it's just like it's like the log. carries. It's like a million push-ups. and that kind of thing. But, Hell Week is a is a component of.

that, and it's it's a week of really no. sleep and constant training. It's It's 5. and 1/2 days. You sleep for a total of 4. hours broken up into naps, and I can. tell you there isn't anybody who wants. to take those naps. They're They're the. worst thing They're the worst part of. Hell Week in some ways. So, you're. basically you're awake training. non-stop. You're in the ocean. It's. miserable. So, it's going to be hard no. matter what. He got VGE, BGE, whatever the stomach. virus. Montezuma's revenge is what it's. colloquially known as. >> Oh, no. >> You're vomiting and you're pooping the. whole time. And uh he got it like the week of.

leading into Hell Week. So, the last few. days of brutal first phase before like. and next week is Hell Week, he can't. keep a meal down. He's like with We're. all withering away cuz you We would We. would finish up the day at like 10:00 or. 11:00, and we'd eat like gallons of ice. cream and Cheez-Its and Oreos. Nothing. was enough. You're You're You're burning. so many calories. The instructors were. like, "Just eat. Eat constantly." Right? And it wasn't enough. He's still losing. all this weight. He couldn't keep anything down.

Never complained. Not once. Goes into Hell Week. He's like dying. during Hell Week. He's. He'd be running with the boat on your. head as we do throughout the whole time, and he's like vomiting. He's like. pooping himself the whole time. And Hell. Week. you're up against how long it is is the. really That's the hard part of it. It's. like any The closest thing I can think. of is like if you've ever gone for a. run, just any run that is uncomfortable for. you to do. It doesn't even matter what. it is. Maybe for you it's a mile, maybe.

it's 10 miles, whatever. But some distance where you start to. think, man, this is going to take a. while. >> Mhm. >> And every second sucks. So, Hell Week is sort of that feeling. and it never really goes away and it's. so so long and it's so physically. demanding that like every second really. feels like an eternity. And then what. makes it even worse is invariably you. sort of lose your mind. You you start to. hallucinate really badly at about like. the 72-hour mark. You start to. hallucinate.

But like you're acutely aware of how bad. it is and how slow it is, but you're not. able to form coherent thoughts. And so. everybody's struggling. and is like dying from BGE. And and like he's being talked to by the. medics because if you don't quit, like. they really won't pull you out of. training. They will let you keep going. pretty much to the brink of death if you. want to keep going. Cuz I mean this. we're training for the the big leagues, you know. And this dude just like. never quit, never complained, had.

probably the worst week of of anyone's. life. And then afterwards like he just never. talked about it, just went and never. failed a test. It's like there are. people that just have this capacity to. just do things that are just. unbelievable and you see it a lot in. SEAL training. Uh I was not like that. I was I was. definitely more of the complaining type, more of like the bitching type. Uh but I. I think that it's funny on my nickname. was Shakespeare. uh yeah, at some point in training uh. because I just was always telling. stories. And I think that one of the.

things that I brought to the table, like. there was this area in in on the BUD/S. compound that was sort of sacred that. even the instructors, they gave you the. space. It was known as the pit. And all. it is is like this little space behind. the first phase barracks where all the. students who are in first phase go. And. the fence that sort of is up against the. back end of the beach. So it's like this. literally three or four foot section of. space that runs like, you know, 100. yards or whatever and it's. it's you're in sight of the instructors, but you're sort of obscured by a fence.

and the barracks and the instructors. even tell you like. when you're in there. we'll leave you alone and when we're in. there and it's like for 5 minutes at a. stretch or whatever. Um, I would always just like be telling. stories, like bullshitting and like. fucking around people and in honestly. like. what you find in in shared suffering is. like everyone sort of has a role to play. to like. keep the vibe from getting overtly. negative and I think one of the things. that I found is like I was able to just. tell people stories and that definitely.

was the thing that people people were. drew to they they were drawn to me. because it was a a distraction, you. know? Um, but other guys like the. ability to suffer well was incredible. with some of these guys. >> Let's take a quick break cuz that's a. good segue. We'll come back and talk. shop, talk stories. >> Let's do it. >> Back in a minute. Got the flannel. >> Let's go. >> [laughter]. >> You like it? >> That's a good look, dude. >> Is it? >> Yeah, and that's a pretty good look. I I. myself fancy that.

>> Are you thinking of it? >> A little bit. It's sort of like now the thing that is. so synonymous with with what I do that. it's sort of like all right. But like uh. when I'm not Mr. Ballen, I'm wearing. nothing like this. >> No, of course not. [laughter]. >> Yeah, dude. >> This is from Reddit from the fans. >> Love it. Let's hear it. >> [snorts]. >> The old format was better. He's phoning it in. Quality fell off. Sell out with the big bucks.

>> Mhm. >> Those were about me. >> [laughter]. >> And very calcium. And Linus Tech Tips and Mr. Ballen and. everybody. >> Oh, wow. >> Same. Same across the board. You thought. I was talking about you. >> I did. I I and I fully assumed that was about. me. >> No, it still gets to me a little bit. Does it get to you? >> It does. Uh. and you know what? I think that part of. the reason that gets to me is I know. there's some element of truth to it and. it doesn't mean that oh boy, I'm now.

covering it. It's more like. there is Here Here's the way I view it. You go viral. or whatever. You have your spark on the. internet, let's say. What But I think people don't. necessarily know, although it's sort of. logical, is that there's really kind of. like two outcomes. You go viral. and you either find a way to sustain, replicate, whatever, do it again, make a.

name for yourself, whatever. Or you don't and it fades it fades off. That's sort of it. It's sort of binary. You don't hear about the people that. faded off and I can tell you just from. just I'm not going to say who they are. cuz it's totally throwing shade, but. like. when I went viral on Tik Tok when there. was no strange dark mysterious. It was. like I had a video that in. Think how many videos probably went. viral today that in a week no one will. remember. Like I had my moment. There.

were these other creators that went. viral at like the same time just by. happenstance, completely unrelated to. me. But there was this cool like almost. like uh this is my graduating class sort. of feel to it that like immediately I. was in touch on Tik Tok with like all. these other creators that were sort of. comparable in speed of growth and like. sort of their accounts, whatever. And a. big part of it is we just would swap. anything we knew cuz it helped both of. us. And.

all of them. all of them. just completely fell off. Not like oh. you fell off. I don't mean it that way. I mean there was no sustainability. long-term. There was too much like they. had a thing that worked once and they. just freaking drove it into the ground. And I get it. Like in some ways like you. could make the case that's exactly what. I have done. I have a thing, a stick. that I do. But what people don't know or what. people don't let's say appreciate on the. audience side is like. you can't this can't be a long-term.

thing. unless you're willing and able to make. changes to make it a business on some. level. It's it's a total pipe dream to think. that it isn't that it's possible to. topic find, research, write, shoot, edit. nonstop. Because by the way, I remember. I I was making five videos a week. >> I remember that. I was like, how does. this guy do it? >> Oh, it's it was horrible. It's horrible. >> horrible.

>> I took a week off when I reached a point. >> You didn't panic taking a week off? >> Oh, no. It was like a It was a true. the purest form of writer's block I. could even possibly imagine. I was. trying to write the story about these. these two brothers in Maryland who were. hoarders and basically the story is that. ultimately one of them dies amongst the. mess and goes unnoticed by the other and. they're like. >> brothers? >> The Collier brothers. >> great story. >> The Collier brothers. >> tell it if you want.

>> You know, I don't know the details that. well and I never actually I think I did. tell it eventually, but like um. basically it's these two brothers and. they're total hoarders and and it's just. this grotesque story about hoarding and. death. >> They're in mazes of newspapers right up. to the park. Yeah. >> And so I I I could not. come up with. like how to tell the story. I couldn't. do it. I don't even It was like, what is. happening? I have the research. I've. done the research. I'm ready to do I. couldn't do it. And I remember I started. at like 9:00 or 10:00 in the morning to.

like start the process of this 20-some. odd hour process to make this video and. it was like the sun was starting to go. down that night and I hadn't done. anything. It's the first time in months. I've ever like missed this much time and. I was like, "Holy shit, I can't do. this." And I went out and I talked to to. Amanda, my wife, and I'm like, "Dude, I I can't write. this episode." And she's like, "Dude, take a day off.". >> Yeah. >> And so I I took a day, which turned into. a full week uh of time off, which again, I had been creating effectively non-stop.

for like 5 6 months and it's taken a big. toll on me. Took a week off. It isn't that I was met with a deluge of. negativity. Not at all. But this is the part that I'm coming. back to this whole idea that like people. don't necessarily see this. The audience knows that like you have. your platform because the audience is. watching. >> Mhm. >> They have the power to give you the. platform or take it away.

If you don't give them, and I'm saying. they, not specific individuals, but as. as a collective, if you're not giving. them what they want, they will leave. you. It's. It is not a friendship. It's not like, "Oh, this is my my family member.". >> Nope. >> It It is a commodity that that that they. want and you're giving it to them. And. >> easy for them to just find someone else. >> And it's it's immediately available. >> right there. >> And I remember coming back from that. week and seeing for the first time.

comments about me not caring. >> Wow. >> And it's like, you know, I I get it. I. can sort of see like off the cuff and. there's at this point, you know, millions of people. I get it. Like. there's going to be people that have. their opinions, but it like really hurt. You know, and you're not supposed to I'm. like I'm I'm like an adult. I have kids. I'm an adult as I came into this. I was. a a Navy SEAL. Like I should be able to. handle this stuff, but it was really. hard. And it always stuck with me from. that point forward that I I love I've.

met so many amazing fans. I know you. probably have too. Like there are some. really incredible people out there that. do comprise in some ways the majority of. the audience. >> Sure. >> But make no mistake, if you're the one. that is sort of the key key man, if you. will, for the show, you're on a hamster wheel that you must. maintain. If you don't, the audience. just goes away. That it it's not the. same with traditional media, not that. I've ever had traditional media. experience, but in today's day and age. with digital media, if you want a career.

in this space, you better find a way to. do this over and over and over and over. and never fucking stop, ever, or else it. goes away. And once you reach a certain. scale, when you have like a staff, and. you have expectations, and you have. people that depend on you, and you're. like a thing now, as the creator, like. you need to make decisions that are. designed to keep this thing going. And. sometimes what that means is I may need. to bring another people to help me do. this because I can't fucking do this.

non-stop for the rest of the next 10. years or something. And so when you see. creators, me, you, you named a few other people, part of the reason they're still. relevant is they've made decisions that. may degrade in terms of quality compared. to the first episode they ever did. And. also people have a lot of emotion. attached to those first few episodes. They were there with you, you know? >> They don't want to see it change. >> They don't want to see it change. And. even if the changes are good, the change. itself represents a what's going on. here?

But like you don't get really much. sympathy is the wrong word. You don't. get much slack if you start altering. what you do at the same time that you've. sort of perceived as growing and and and. being successful. And so the sellout. thing, I I I think that. it doesn't like hurt, but it's it's just. purely a misunderstanding of how this. really works. I could have just as. easily. become obscure by not making changes and. running myself into the ground and.

stopping making content and then guess. what? There wouldn't be any commentary about. Mr. Ballen cuz Mr. Ballen wouldn't. exist. It would be oh, that was that. thing that happened that one time for. like a month on Tik Tok a while It. wouldn't matter to you. >> It wouldn't. >> It's the fact that you're still hearing. about the Wi-Files and AJ and John and. the Mr. is because they've done. something that allows them to maintain a. sort of near impossible to maintain. thing, which is a never-ending supply of. content because that's your career. It.

exists so long as you make content. I. don't know what happens when you stop, but I'm pretty sure your career as a. content creator changes pretty. dramatically. >> It does. People tell me, you know, you're a slave to the algorithm and I. tell them yeah, that's that's. how we make our livelihoods here. >> Yeah. >> And if you take too much time off, you. will be punished. The audience will. punish you, the algorithm punish you. Now, new things show up in your feed. Sometimes I don't even see my own. episodes in my feed. >> Same. >> It's got Oh, cuz I didn't post last week. cuz why I'm not getting impressions. >> Same.

>> So I went through phases of drinking too. much, not sleeping, showering in the. office. >> [laughter]. >> It's like it's not glamorous. >> You know, it's so man, is that true? I. dude, I um in 2023. I had like. the most banner year on paper that you. could have. Like even now looking back, it's astounding. I. I'd post a YouTube video and it's like.

fucking a dillion views. >> I remember those. >> I. >> A million in a day, a million in a day. >> it was like oh, whatever. I I had the. podcast that we started and we had the. fastest from conception of podcast or. inception of podcast. to signing of a of a mega deal. We did it the fastest against anybody. else at that deal size. Um it was like 9 months from from we're. going to do a podcast. Hey, we'll sign.

you to a fucking enormous contract for 3. years. >> Was that the Amazon deal? So, only 9. months to get that like enormous. >> I want to say it was 10 months 10. months. And we're talking like tens of. millions of dollars. It it. It It was like, you know, it was like 60. It was $62 million. $62 million. That's. what it was. In fact, I don't even know. why that's so secret cuz my. >> deal with Sirius is public, too. >> Right. >> Um so, it's $62 million and I So, it's. in 2023. my YouTube channel, which by the way.

wasn't even licensed. So, I licensed my. podcast. And we were crushing. It was. doing crazy crazy downloads, but we for. $62 million for the podcast and. I have a YouTube channel that's doing. like $10 million a year. And so, in '23, the reason I say all that, I am making. so much fucking money that I literally. didn't even know what to do. I It wasn't. like, I'm going to go buy a bunch of. shit. It was like, I I don't even know. who to talk to. Even my financial.

people, I don't even know if they know. what to do. Like there's money coming in. that's so high. I'm I'm uncomfortably even talking about. it. So, >> You don't have a support structure for. this. There's a point where my mom was. my financial advisor until [laughter]. she's like, I don't understand anymore. >> Dude, it's. >> It's not It's It's It's fun, but it's. >> also very stressful. >> But at the end of '23. I was. if not a alcoholic by some sort of. definition, I was close.

Because. I. The Oh my god, it's like. I I become sort of financially. successful and right away there were. like these really difficult. exploitations that began happening in my. life. I actually, you know, I began doing a. renovation. I was I was telling you. about this before. Uh you know, and and the contractor. basically took a ton of money from me. A. shit ton of money, like half a million. dollars from me. And uh I was stupid enough to give it,

but it was like totally being gaslit. into giving money. And it's like they. knew that I had money. It was a thing. And they're like taking the money and. not doing the renovations and just. extorting me for more money cuz they've. gutted my house already. And like then I had people that were. coming in to work for me. uh that are not with me now. So, this is. nobody now, but like that were just. hugely exploitative. And so, at the end of '23 I am like. in the eyes of being if in terms of.

being a creator. I got it all. I got fucking everything you could ever. ask for. And I would work myself to. death. And then at whatever time I was. done working, I would just drink. I'd. just drink, dude. And it wasn't even for. fun. It wasn't even as an outlet. It was. almost habitual. It was just fucking. >> Take it. Take it Take it away. I don't want to. think about it. It's the only way to. sleep. >> then And so, by the end of '23, I was I. So, like right now I'm like like in the. 170s. I weigh about 170. And I'm like.

really on top of my like health and I'm. sober. But I was like I remember looking. at the scale and it was like 199. And. I'm like. not exercising at all. This is There's. no part of this that is like good body. comp. I'm like out of shape. And I had. this ponytail. I'd grown my fucking hair. out like really bad. And I don't even. know why I was doing it. It It was sort. of like this stick that began when Mr. Ballen happened. I wasn't really cutting. my hair. And I just never did it. And I. had this like ponytail. And I'm like.

>> I remember that. I remember the long. hair. >> [laughter]. >> I was like just bloated looking. And if. you look It's If you look at the videos. from 2023 and like early early '23, late. '22. a lot of the videos I'm hungover. A lot. of the videos. >> And you can totally tell it. I mean, you. can. >> Dude, dude, I'm red faced, bloated. >> where it's like I can't You don't even. see the white in my eyes. [laughter]. It's. skinny. >> Oh, and I So, it took. >> So, you don't feel like a mega star at. this point. >> No. No, not at all. And like I think. that I also realized.

that um. it's like a permanent shift in terms of. like how you're viewed by like people. around you, like who really know you, because now. I think that I offered a lot to the. world before this, but now there's like. a financial opportunity. There's more. than that. There's There's like an. opportunity for people that you. represent that they can't really get. elsewhere. And. I was sort of realizing that like I had. I had very close friends that were like. from the teams that.

like trying to like get money out of me, and it's like, what the fuck? It's like. my circle just shrunk. And I was like so. physically just like I felt so gross. about myself. And I'm like just drinking all the time, and then I I shifted from old Here, I'm. going to stop boozing as much. And I'm. going to just like eat edible marijuana, which is like, "So, no big deal.". And it got to the point where, dude, I. was I don't know if you're familiar with. dosing, but I I was I was eating like. 200 mg of THC a night. >> I used to run a weed company.

>> Okay, [laughter] there we go. Perfect. 200 mg, which for some people That's a. lot. And this is I worked my way up, but. I. it wasn't enjoyable. I I. >> No. >> I would take it, and then I would like. green out, and I would grip the sheets. I'd lay in my bed and grip the sheets as. I would have these insane heart. palpitations, and I couldn't sleep. Every fucking night I would do it. And. it only brought me discomfort and pain. >> Yep. >> But I like couldn't stop, or I'd be. drinking too much. And so, it's like I. fell into the trap, or whatever you want to call it, of like.

huge success in sort of like a very. specific way, like money, and like he's. got like millions of followers, but like. my life, my actual life is sort of. falling apart all around me. But. the idea of complaining about this to. people, it's it's a joke. Oh my god, I just had this fucking huge. deal signed and I I have this amazing. stuff and it's like no one gives a fuck. about you. >> And so it it's it's hard, man. It's a. your world shrinks. And so to the.

question or or the comments around like. you're a sellout or whatever, there's a huge toll to to doing this. There's. I I'm not saying that the the challenges. that I have are worse or or whatever. than other people's problems, far from. it. But the idea that like anybody. that's been, you know, relatively. successful in in social media and. content is just like living this great. life. Like. dude, it's really hard and it really. changes your life in some really.

negative ways, especially when people. start to associate you with money. And yeah. >> Ballan say during all that? >> Uh my wife's awesome. Amanda, she's. >> She must be. >> She's fucking great. She's awesome, dude. She I met her in college when I. went back to college to UMass Amherst. The cool thing about Amanda is she uh. doesn't give a fuck about Mr. Ballan at. all. Like none. Like but she loves John. And she loves me as her husband and the. father of our kids.

And she's just like naturally very very. grounding for me because she met me as. when I met her. I was so I was in. college and by this point I've had my my. my meeting with Dave and Pete up at the. camp in New Hampshire. I'm back at UMass. Amherst cuz I reapplied. I'm going to. close it out at UMass Amherst. I'm going. to go to the SEAL teams, that's my plan. And so I'm like training a lot. I'm. running and working out. And I go to my buddy's apartment uh and. his mutual or a friend of his was this. other group that that Amanda was a part.

of and she came over one night and we're. just like sitting around this apartment. and Amanda and I just were like sitting. by this the kitchen island and we're. just like talking and and and I wasn't. like I wasn't bragging at all but I was. like talking about you know what I was. going to do after college and I was like. well you know I'm going to. I'm going to go try out and try to. become an ABC L and Amanda and most. people when they hear they're like oh. wow like whoa cool. And Amanda she's. she's I'm sitting and she's standing. next to me and just unprompted she. reaches up and she grabs she grabs my.

arm like my biceps like reaches under. and squeezes it and she just goes. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if you're. going to make it. >> What did she say when you said I'm going. to be a full-time Tik Toker? >> Oh well you know the thing is is by that. point she had seen me cuz she she was. with me when I. she's been with me since 2010 you know I. was in buds she was with me in buds she. was with me for all the deployments and. everything. Um she was with me when like I fucking. lost my mind on my second deployment.

when I went to South America like I had. a mental breakdown she's been with me. for everything. >> Have you ever talked about that much? >> No. >> Breakdown in South America? >> No I haven't. >> want to share? You don't have to. >> No I I brought it up for that reason cuz. that really ties to Amanda. I yeah I haven't really talked about it. so in Afghanistan the way that it's been. sort of. the way that the story goes publicly. about how I got medically retired is. gets blown up by a grenade survives and. then gets medically retired and and in. some ways that is true and and I I've.

never actually said explicitly one. exactly went to the next it's always. been like well you know I got hurt and. then you know subsequently I did get. medically retired and it was connected. to the grenade it was. But the people don't know is there. actually was a deployment that happened. in between that. I come back from Afghanistan. uh in 2014. uh I was literally blown up uh and then. like I think it was like 7 days later, I'm like literally pushing a shopping.

cart in like Home Depot. I'm like home, like hobbling around. >> No debrief, no processing. >> No. And they do have pro- they have a a. way to do that. I I didn't. I because of. the way wound care's handled and what I. needed, I sort of was ushered out. And I. I felt like uh. in the in special operations in. particular, no one. No one says this, but it's sort of a. thing or it was when I was in that it's. like.

you want to go to war. You do. You want. to go to war, and it's it's not even. like uh a bloodlust thing. It's more of. a. this is the thing that we're supposed to. be able to do, and it's sort of like. this incre-. incredible, not in a good way, but like. this like crazy thing to like go to war. and to really actively be participating. in it. Um you know, and and you. >> Not fun. >> No. >> Not fun. >> And I I I got the chance to go. And I. say that that sounds weird to say it.

that way, but like I I was I was. thrilled. And weirdly enough, and this is some. shit that I probably haven't even fully. processed, I remember the last one of. the last things I told my wife before I. went to Afghanistan. We don't have kids. yet, but like I told her I was like. I hope I die there. >> Oh, no. >> And and she's like, "What the fuck are. you. >> thing to say to your wife. >> I was like, "Yeah, like I can't think of. a better way to die than to be in. combat." I was like I I meant it. It. wasn't even like I'm so depressed. It was sort of like the opposite. It was.

like, "This is my hero's journey. I'm. going to go die in Afghanistan.". And I I I couldn't even believe I was. saying it to her. We were laying in bed. in our house in Virginia, and she was. like mad about it. She's like, "Why. would you say this to me now?" And I'm. like, "I I'm just being honest." And so. I had this like weird mentality, and. like I go to Afghanistan, and like. honestly, in in a way it was many of the. things I thought it would be and many of. the things I didn't. There were some fucking horrible things. over there, like the way that I acted at. times. Not like illegally or something, but the person I became was like.

I was the guy that's that would would. talk to people on target after the. shooting was done or just like I I was. like the interrogation is the wrong word. cuz it's it's very sensitive if you call. yourself an interrogator. There's a. whole course for that. There's levels of. clearance. I wasn't any of that. I was. like a. I was known as a tactical questioner. And what it meant is. I would often be alone. with people that were just trying to. kill me and I'm trying to extract.

information from them really quickly. about things that we need to know right. fucking now. And I'm an ABCL and I've. been trained in certain ways and there. were things that I was doing that were. like fucking barbaric. >> Like what? >> Just like violence, committing violence. to extract information and you know. >> You didn't have that voice going, "Dude, what are you doing?". >> Yeah. And I couldn't stop, dude. There was. like moments of. it was like thrilling and so fucked up. at the same time.

Again, like I never did anything that. would would like not pass the the test. of are you allowed to? >> That doesn't mean it's not awful. >> No. It was like the humanity's gone. >> Yeah. >> Like we had a guy and I still think. about this guy. who came into our. um. our care, whatever you want to call it. He was like some sort of informant or. something. I don't fucking know.

And um. I made the decision to shave his beard. which literally signals to any of his. handlers that he's been in American. custody. >> Mhm. >> And what do you think happened to him? >> Got killed. >> Yeah. And I knew that was going to happen. >> In Spec Ops, do they train you to. dehumanize the enemy to make it easier? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I would think so. >> Yeah, and then there was this fucking. >> way. >> Huh? >> I don't know if there's another way. >> Well, there isn't. I mean, it's like. you're asking people to go.

commit violence, like really. intimate violence. >> Yeah. >> It's like I mean, I I. I struggled mightily with with sort of. the reality of what we have been asked. to do because, you know, when I look. back at at that deployment. I did all the things that we're trained. to do, you know, and like I remember. there was this one kid and he lived, but. just. sometimes we'd have people turned over.

We were staying at this outstation. that's like way off in the sticks. in Afghanistan. And periodically the Afghani police or. army would like. drag in some person they claimed was. like, "Oh, they're passing information. to Al-Qaeda or the Taliban.". And honestly, it was so corrupt. Like. there's 99% of the time it was just they. didn't like somebody. You know what I. mean? >> And somehow or another we got this. 16-year-old kid.

in our custody and I was called over to. go talk to him. And like I don't have kids at this. point. I'm like 25 or 6 or whatever I. am. And I'm in this small room with him and. I made him stand in this like fucking. like bin of ice for some reason. Which is just stupid, but like I had him. like stand in ice and it wasn't even I. wasn't even like asking him questions. I. was like humiliating him. And. you got to remember that it sounds just.

like I'm I lost my humanity, but in a. way like. when you are in an an environment where. like it isn't that you are literally. being shot at 24/7 and far from it. But you're in an environment where death. could come at any moment, for real. Like. we were in a base that like. theoretically could be overrun at any. time. We had like this thing called a. P-tits blimp overhead that constantly. looked for like suicide bombers that. would attack us at any moment. We had to. sleep with like weapons right by our bed.

and had to be ready to go run out. And. like, you know, so you're living in an. environment that's nothing like being a. civilian. And and in order to not just. survive, but thrive, you you you you take on, a lot of guys. did, this. like primal state. And when you're the guy that's meant to. be, in a weird way, like the. intimidator, like you need to go in and you need to. scare the fuck out of these dudes into. giving you information. You need to embody that persona and make.

sure your dudes are confident that you. can do that. And I really took to it. And it's funny now. It's not funny, but. like I'm so not the guy that's like. walking around puffing my chest out. trying to be like intimidating. But like. in Afghanistan, like I was. I was the guy that was put in the room. to like fuck with people and get them to. give us information and like scare. people into doing. >> Why would you be chosen for that? >> I was really fucking good at it. Like. >> Walk me through an.

>> I was just. I had this weird like ability to like. stare at people and like get them to see. that like I'm prepared to kill you right. now. I'm genuinely prepared to kill you. >> Did you ever tell them stories? >> Yeah. >> Because the stories can be used as a. weapon for sure. >> There was. um. There were definitely moments where I. would like it was a little bit. difficult. Like I I I spoke very broken. Pashto and Farsi. We had an We had an. interrogator. We had uh interpreters.

>> [sighs]. >> But like there were some people that. broke really quickly and by broke I. don't mean like lengthy interrogations. or anything, but like they just they. quickly understood that you're in a. closed room, there's no surveillance. overhead. If if you die in here, no. one's going to no one's going to do. anything about it. >> Yep. >> And they've been they've been up against. NATO for long enough to know that like. you don't want to be in closed rooms. with by the way, I wasn't I was wearing. like shorts, like cut-off shorts and a.

fucking a flannel. And like my kit. doesn't look normal. I have like a. fucking Bowie knife on my chest and I. have like all this kit that's like not. normal. I have a fucking huge ass mohawk. and this weird facial hair and I'm like. gaunt and just like I've been out here. like doing these operations for months. and we've been getting shot at and. shooting it back at people like. it came across when I was in the room. with people like my capacity for. violence is higher than yours.

>> Mhm. >> And I'm backed by people out there. >> Right. You're tied to a chair. >> You you got to do it. And so. um. but that kid, I remember I just. I knew why he was handed over to us. It. was actually because he had taken some. pot shots at us like our convoy as we. like rolled into our camp or whatever. And I don't really know what his story. was, but it's like okay, you're a. 16-year-old kid. We know that the. Taliban like routinely like summarily.

will just execute people in these. neighboring villages. We know there have. been cases of people being told go shoot. at the Americans or we're going to. fucking kill your family. >> Yep. >> And this kid is in this impossible. situation where first of all. if you shoot at at us, forget NATO, if. you shoot at at our platoon. we're going to kill you. >> Yes. >> And I and I'm I don't mean like in a we. might find you at some I mean like. literally you're going to die because we.

will track you. we will find you and kill you. There weren't any survivors. So, I mean. that's that's an exaggeration, but it. was sort of like if we saw you and you. engaged us, you're fucking dead. That's. what's going to happen. We're going to. call in fucking J-dams. We're going to. lock on you with our 50 cal and our. up-armored vehicles where you can't even. hit us. Even if you shot us 50 fucking. times, you're you're dead. But this kid, it's like he's shooting at. a convoy. He's been hand over handed over to us, but like what else is he going to do? He probably was put up to it. And it's.

like here I am. >> He didn't He didn't have that gun. >> He didn't He had nothing. He's a kid. >> Someone gave him the gun. >> He's a kid and like. but I was like dealing with. I wasn't alone in the room and this. doesn't I'm not putting blame on other. people, but it's like me and a a more. senior guy. who's like watching. >> There's no blame here, I don't think. This is just a thing. >> And I'm like getting physical with this. kid and it's just he clearly doesn't. even know what to do. >> He wasn't mouthing off or anything?

>> No, he like literally didn't know what. to do. And eventually I sort of stopped. and we let the kid go. And it was like. almost it was a joke by the end. It's. like fuck this kid. Like he can go. He's. not useful to us. And we turned him back. over. And I know he he survived at least. several days later. But like the reason I say all that is. like the. I'm actually No, there's there's one. other that I would say I've never spoken. about publicly. Um towards the end of the time I was in. Afghanistan, there was we did this.

operation where we were just sort of. clearing this valley, which sort of is a. generic way of saying we were sort of. marching through an area with known. militants and we just were seeing what. happened. And we did get into a contact. They're. shooting at us, we're shooting back at. them, but it was like at a distance. And we totally within the rules of. engagement called in an air strike on on. a group of military-age males and we. struck them. Uh we used a Hellfire missile, which is. like a relatively precise small munition.

that is very lethal to like people close. by, but not so lethal if you're like. 10 I'm probably wrong about the actual. distances, but like if you're near but. not that close, you might get maimed, but you're not going to die. And um. this guy, this older guy got badly. wounded. Uh we thought he was dead. Uh. and so after you you. kill someone or kill anybody, we you. know, or even just after any sort of. contact, you do like a a battle damage.

assessment. You'll go and you'll like. look at what happened and document it. We have like these fingerprint scanners. Like it's all a seek. You like take dead. guys' hands and like. So there's a process to it and it's. literally to document what happened. And I it that it doesn't mean that we. constantly were killing everybody and. whatever, but we went over to not me, but another. element within our platoon went over to. do the battle damage assessment on this. this drop. And they found this guy as they're. getting closer, they could see he was. still alive. He's He's an older guy.

He's been gravely injured. Um and he's he's clearly bleeding to. death. Um he's like propped up against a. tree. He's he's fucking he's in a really. bad way. He's going to die. But he's. totally alive. He's like dying a slow. and miserable death. And I mean truly I can't even get into. like who said this, but put it this way. There was there was. there were senior people that were there. that day. And it was like uh hey Allen, like right of passage and they pulled a. knife that we had we had gotten off of.

one of the guys we killed earlier. And they were like, "Go. Go finish him. off.". And they were like as I took the knife. and I'm walking over to this village, like the guy's family was out. Like. they're all out in the courtyard. And. >> And they were telling me I'm I'm I'm.

Foxtrot 8 was my call sign. >> [sighs]. >> They were like, "Make sure you Make sure. you go inside of a building first.". And I remember I just. I didn't want to do it. I I walk over to. where there's this group of crying women. and children, and they know what's. happening. And. I start walking over to this guy. And I'm like, I'm about to murder. someone. This is different This is. different than other stuff. And right as I'm like nearing him,

I didn't literally have the knife out, but as I'm like as close as you and I. are, and I see how fucked up he is, and. he's looking at me, and he knows what's. happening. One of the best fucking dudes I've ever. met on the planet, also a new guy, he walked over, and he was like, "No. You're not doing that.". And he literally he came over the radio, and he's junior, the junior guy, and. there are very senior dudes on target. This is a fucking big deal. He's like, "He's not doing this.

Right now, we're going to call in a. medevac. We're going to get this guy. help. We cannot become fucking savages. We can't kill people like this. Can't do. it.". >> Were you going Were you going to do it? >> Yeah. And. that in a weird way, even though I didn't do it, and the guy. was brought to a hospital, I got to be. honest, I don't know what happened to. him. Like, in a way, I've I don't know what. to do with the fact that. I would have killed him. >> That's a moment that changes you. It's different than shooting at a. building.

>> In front of his family. >> And I mean, dude, so not long after that, like very. shortly after that day, um you know, I have the the near-death. experience of the grenade blowing up. near me, and I'm suddenly like medevac'd. out of country, and I'm like back home. And. I just. I never the the mentality of being that.

guy, the interrogator, if you will, the guy willing to to murder, uh it didn't go away, you know? And and. it didn't mean that I was like being. violent, but like I. >> What do you mean it didn't go away? You. carried what anger? >> mad. >> Yeah. >> And you know what's funny? And I can. only I know this now. I remember being so critical, mentally, like internally very critical. of anybody who claimed PTSD, who in my.

mind didn't deserve to be able to be. able to claim that. Cuz I I in my mind I'm like. I'm a fucking Navy SEAL. I've been to. war. I fuck I almost died, you know? I. I'm the fucking man. That was sort of my. mentality. Not didn't nons. non-ironically. That was like actually. how I felt. And I remember thinking, and. I don't even have PTSD. I don't have any. of that shit. Like I'm fucking good to. go, right? >> [gasps]. >> And very quickly I got into another The.

way it works on the white side, so. anything not SEAL Team Six, all the. other teams, you're in these 2-year. rotation cycles, where it's like you. deploy for usually 6 months, and you. come back, and you're you're in you're. almost immediately, within reason, in another cycle, often. with a different team, different. platoon. You do 18 months of training to. go deploy for another 6 months. So it's. a constantly. And then sometimes you're. you're pulled out of the rotation, and. you do a a teaching cycle. You go become. a BUD/S instructor for a couple of. years. But I pretty much right away was put. back into a rotation, by choice. As as a.

new guy, you sort of do back-to-back. tours, back-to-back rotations before you. can do anything else. >> Well, hang on. Did Amanda see anything. different about you when you got back? >> I don't know. I I know that I was. Oh, yeah. She did. For sure she did. Um. I I would say my temper was pretty. extreme and it wasn't extreme like I was. mad all the time. I would get so so so mad about.

everything. Like. I remember our. the homeowners association in Virginia. Beach. They They were pretty nitpicky and they. like came around. >> Everybody hates them. >> Yeah, everyone does. And they And I And they. >> put an American flag in front of my. house? >> Yeah, it's something like. >> I'll pay the fine. >> They were mad about our chimney cap. being rusted. >> Right. >> And I was so mad. >> Oh, no. >> And I called them. I Do you have any fucking clue who I am?

And they're like, "Sir, we have no idea. who you are." And they're like, "I was. in fucking Afghanistan. You don't get. it." It's like, "Sir, how could we have. known that?". >> [laughter]. >> We just want you to paint it. We don't. >> Please. We'll even do it for you. Um but I I was just mad a lot. But the. thing is is is I was really quickly back. into another rotation. I had I had. injuries that were bad. You know, I have. a right now I have 26 pieces of shrapnel. that are still in my leg. They're. microscopic at this point. But like I. have I have pain in my ankle. I have. pain in my hip. They They debrided as.

much as they could, but I had like real. real issues with with pain in my leg. And then also I still have this. I I. have pretty serious shoulder pain. Um. the grenade blast when it happened it. dislocated both my shoulders like. briefly. Like it's slap tear. It tore. both labrums. Um so I had like really. bad shoulder pain and like I'm sort of. like hobbling around a little bit, but I. was able to sort of I got the bicep. tendinitis surgery which sort of patches. shit up and and I was just like I I. I'm a I'm a I'm a guy that's done some. shit. I'm a Navy SEAL with combat.

experience. I'm getting into another. rotation. I'm deploying again. I'm not. I'm not a guy with PTSD. Like. >> [snorts]. >> And so I'm like immersed pretty much. right away with like the next cycle. And. even though it's 18 months till you. deploy again, you're training. constantly. >> There's no psyche eval coming back on. rotation? >> No. Like you're just in it. And. >> Someone's got to know like this guy's. probably not ready. >> The thing is is like I was one of many. >> Yeah, of course. >> And. >> Two cousins that came back fucked up. from this. One in the Corps, one in the. Army.

>> And so we end up. >> And they're still fucked up. It's been. 10 years. >> unfortunate, you know. I uh I ended up. 18 months later deploying to Peru. to do like. I mean, basically counter-drug. operations, but like in a really. indirect way. I mean, effectively we. were going over there to. to train, you know, on a daily basis. other. they're called the FOEs, the Fuerza de. Operaciones Especiales.

um. how to do drug interdictions. And then. they would go sort of execute and get. sort of advised to some degree. But it. was like very very more advisory, right? And I remember I I was in a school uh. for the Navy called J-Tac school. I was. learning how to talk to aircraft and. call in air strikes and stuff. And it it. meant that I would deploy after the. group had already landed in Peru cuz we. were very fragmented. I was going to be. deploying with just like seven or eight. guys versus a full platoon to a full. troop to Afghanistan was like 50 or 60.

Um and. I had put no thought honestly into the. South America tour cuz I'm like, dude, I. was in Afghanistan. I've seen combat. Like. >> [snorts]. >> this is going to be stupid, like fucking. dumb. You know, I thought of it as just a. waste of time. Like it's just I I. hopefully we'll get through real quick. and then I'll go, you know, maybe I'll. try try out for DevGru or something. And I. I got in the plane and I flew to. Germany. And I'm going with just like. two other guys. Actually, one of them. was actually Jim Flately. Love that guy.

Um and. actually actually that was our trip to. Afghanistan. I think I flew to South. America by myself. I did. Yeah, I'm. confusing the two. I flew to South. America alone. So, I fly to uh to. Germany. and then I fly to South America. And when I got there, I had been given. instructions to like, "Hey, you know, you're going to land in this airport. that's like, you know, it's Yeah, it's. predominantly Spanish speaking cuz Peru. is like very non-English. It's like very. non-English. Um and uh.

you're going to meet up with your. driver, you'll get your stuff, and like, you know, we we were staying in this. house, we the the SEALs that were there, in Miraflores, Peru, which is fucking. beautiful. This is like where you go if. you're like a rich and you want to go on. an amazing vacation, you go to. Miraflores. And we were staying in this. literal like mansion in a compound. It. was in this beautiful neighborhood that. was like so expensive, so affluent. And. it was actually next to like a slum that.

was like the murder capital of South. America. But, you know, we were there. because it's like, you know, we're not. really doing direct operations at all. We're just there to advise. Like the. government's putting us up in a nice. place. We're going to work out of here, commute in, whatever. And so, I land in South America. and I I don't know how to describe it. It was like I had like it in the most. cliché way, like a flashback. Uh I hadn't given much thought to the. Afghanistan deployment really at all. beyond like the top-level like I'm so. cool sort of mentality.

But, I land in South America in Peru and. it was like, "Oh my god, I'm in like. another country." That sounds stupid, but like. I had discounted this so much in my mind. cuz it wasn't going to be combat. And. I'm like in a foreign country. I don't. speak a lick of Spanish. Like I I blew. off any any of the Spanish training. I. didn't give a fuck about it. Like I'm. I've I've seen combat. I've a fucking. Purple Heart. I don't give a shit about. any of this. And I uh. I got in the car, which was such a. nightmare trying to navigate this very. crowded little airport, and everyone's.

speaking, you know, Spanish, and I'm so. lost. And I finally find my car that's. going to bring me to the house, and like. he didn't speak any English, and it was. like I don't even know where I'm going, and we're like driving, and it's like. you're driving through at times when we. got to like the Miraflores area, it was. beautiful, but a lot of the drive was. through some really rough neighborhoods. And one of the things that was. immediately striking when I was in. Afghanistan is. there's nothing quite like driving. through an area in Afghanistan that's. like war-torn and like rough.

Video doesn't do it. Like hearing other. people's It's just different. When. you're looking out the window and you're. like, "This is literally like war. That's where we are.". And um. driving through like the slums of of. Peru. where like truly there's like child. hitmen out here. >> Yeah. >> Uh. I was like, "Holy fuck.". I am like I am not ready for this. I'm. not ready to be here. And. I dude, I.

I got there, and. I like didn't really know the guys that. were part of the team. It was sort of a. hodgepodge of SEALs and techs. I think the statute of limitations have. passed, so I can be honest about some. stuff. They. they sold uh cape clonazepam. Clonazepam's a benzodiazepine. over-the-counter there. And I discovered that really early on. >> That's pretty addictive stuff, that that. benzo. >> Dude, I I became hopelessly addicted to.

it. And I was drinking constantly. I had my. fuck I had Oh, yeah, because I began I. began having suicidal tendencies. Not. even Not even suicidal tendencies, like. I began looking up like how how how. likely is it to die from drinking too. much on a benzo, and it's it's pretty. high. >> You're looking that up. So, you know you. know this is I'm. I'm hurting myself here. So, you're. aware of that, but you're doing that. >> I don't even really remember the first. month that I was there. I I'm I'm dude,

I I went so overboard. I. I I would like just go out at night, and. this is like not okay what I was doing. I put the team in a lot I put them in a. very hard place. I would go out at night and not tell. anyone. High as fuck I don't even high I. don't even I don't even know how you. describe what it's like to be fucked up. on benzos. You're like, "Wow, I'm so. lucid. I'm so focused." But, you're. fucking not. >> And you're not going to remember any of. this. >> No, and I would just go out and wander.

the streets, and I I went to this one. area where it was like homeless people. like the slums of Peru, and I would just. like sit there and smoke cigarettes with. like. and I'd like stay there all night. And. I'd like. became I began going there on purpose to. like ask them about if they had suicidal. thoughts. I'm like sitting with They. don't even speak English. I don't even. Now that I'm thinking about it, like I'm. speaking English. I'm like a rambling. fucked up dude, so and it got to the.

point where. my team literally they're like, "Dude, what the fuck is wrong with" They took. my gun away. >> Of course. >> I was I was watched 24/7, and coming. down off benzos is fucking horrible. It's also you can like die coming down. off benzos, but my my team. that was there. I mean, luckily a lot of them had been. with me in Afghanistan, and sort of. like, you know, if there was ever you. some good grace there, I think they. understood that it isn't that I'd seen. so much shit. It was just like.

I was I was really struggling with. frankly the. the role I played in Afghanistan that a. lot of the guys that I was there with. actually weren't even fully aware of was. like that behind closed doors guy. That like the the not honorable stuff. Like in some ways you could make the. case that like at least out on the open. battlefield. there's honor and. you know, like you're both sort of. having a shot at each other, but like. >> after action, when someone's fucking. they can't do anything and they're in a.

room with just you and like you you can. do anything to them. >> There's no honor in that. >> There's none and I. I fucking hated myself for it and I lost. my fucking mind. I began having this. This is on on the. towards the tail end of that first. month. I was hallucinating. Like I had the same hallucination like. all the time. I'd be laying in my room. and it was like so like muggy in Peru. that there was constant moisture. Like. everything's wet and it was like hot. We.

didn't have air conditioning. Like laying on my sweaty ass sheets I. never cleaned. I was so fucking gross. Like just unclean. And I I would fall into this like weird. mindset of I would be convinced I was on. a corner in Russia. Like on a street. corner in Russia. And it's like all brown buildings around. me and I'd be like standing on the. street corner and like I I felt like I. had orders like military orders to be. there. And I like had to be there.

And I would lay on my bed believing I. was standing in Russia on a street. corner for fucking like hours and hours. and hours. Just like unmoving. I would. just sit there. And then I'd like come out of it and be. like, what the fuck am I even doing? And. then I'd like go pop some cl- uh. benzodiazepines. >> Are you doing Are you working at all. during any of this? Are you advising? >> They I didn't do shit on that. deployment. Like. >> have a CO that's like, dude. >> I was a liability. And and I was such a. liability that they.

I think they recognized that like this. is this this is career ending for sure. if anybody finds out that like you're. doing this. >> And should be, shouldn't it? >> It definitely I I should be out of the. military. You're not fucking fit to be. here. >> No. >> And it got to the point where I. I was openly saying I want to fucking. die. Like I don't I want to be done. But. to be honest, it was almost like my own. cop-out. I don't even know what I'm. doing. And I didn't even know why I was so. upset, but it was definitely tethered to.

like this belief that like I'm a fucking. fraud. There's like the people that that. back home think I'm like this honorable. war hero, the guy that I really I wished. I was. I know I'm not. I know I'm not. Like. there are things that that I did not. need to do. Forget blame or not, just. things that I found myself doing. overseas that are just inhuman and did. not need to be done. But I knew I could do them with. impunity. And living with that, knowing that. there's no recourse.

>> Did you finally figure out who you were. angry at? You know now? >> I mean, I was fucking mad at myself. I. know that. >> I mean, it's shame is what it was. >> It was intense shame. And so when I came back from Peru, and. actually I did do the whole deployment, and it was only because my team, frankly, kept me there and looked after me. And. frankly, I bet they fucking hated the. fuck out of me while I was there. But. they protected me.

And I actually it's I remember. it was just it was just it was a lot, but I came home from that deployment and. I didn't really even know how much my. wife, my family even knew. Like I didn't. really even know. Like. I had. at one point I knew that like. some of my teammates were like reaching. out to dudes stateside to be like, "What. do we do with with Allen?". >> They were? While you were down there? >> Because they didn't want the command to. find out cuz it would be bad for me and. my career. But it got I know it.

eventually found its way to my wife and, you know, my my in-laws and my parents. And it apparently was like this huge. issue. back home because it's like I have a. fragmented family. I have my parents are. divorced. And, you know, they're finding out that like, "Wait a. minute. So, John's taking drugs. He's talked about suicide. He They're. losing track of him at times. He's. basically can't even do his job.

And they're not telling the command? The fuck is that? Like, what are we. going to do?". And it was like this crisis within my. family of, "Do we go to South America. and like literally take him home?". >> No. >> Can't really do that. And so, oddly. enough, Dave and Pete were the guys that. were tapped to to get in touch with me. and the same guys that sort of. helped find the vision to get me in were. the same ones that they're like, "Dude, they like called me all the time while I. was out in South America." I I remember. just like weeping on the phone to them.

And. I don't even know what we talked about, but they were just like there for me in. a way. And they also just there was no judgment. being passed. It was like, "This is sort. of what happens, you know.". And they were like, "When you get home, you need to fucking clean your shit up. and figure out this what you want to. do.". And so, really. because of everybody around me, I I. survived literally that deployment. Uh. and I come home. and I'm just fucking broken. Like, I'm.

broken. And. it it came to a head and I. I love my kids. I And at this point I. had I had a I had a daughter. And. in like the first year I was home, I had this feeling when I was alone with. my daughter that I was going to hurt. her. And I never did, and I never ever came. close to it, but I'm telling you that. one of the things that I would do. overseas is I'd be in closed rooms like. hurting people. And I was trying so hard to like not be.

that person and I the worst times and. it's like so shameful and I brought it. up so many times to like my therapist. And it's actually what this I would say. this story that I'm going to tell you is. what prompted my medical retirement. It. was. I went to my therapist cuz I was told by. my own team at this time cuz when I came. back from that deployment, I was in a. training cell. They're like, "Dude, you. need to go see somebody.". Like, we know what happened in Peru. Every fucking does. Like, you need to go.

see someone. And she asked me. like, "How are you doing?" And I was. sort of like not really telling her. stuff. Like, "Oh, you know.". Downplaying it and I I told her I was. like, "I have this thing though where. when I'm giving my kids a bath, I'm. worried I'm going to like drown my. kids.". And I have to tell my wife to come in. and finish the bath because I'm worried. I'm going to do that. And I said it to. her like, "You know.". You know, this is a thought that. everyone has this thought. And she goes, "You You literally, you have to find a.

way to like stop that. And if I mean, she's like, "I've had other people that. similar shoes to you that are. had to remove all the knives from their. house because they're they're worried. they're going to do something." She's. like, "This is This is trauma. This is. trauma playing out.". >> Did you tell Amanda what you were. thinking? >> I am. And I can say that that was a. that was when Amanda knew like. I don't know what's going on with my. husband. Like, I don't know what. happened to him.

I shared some details with her. Um. more intimate details about sort of. Afghanistan and behind closed doors. stuff. And um. the the fear of me harming the things. that I would literally die for in a. heartbeat. I love my kids more than. anything. I've never ever ever come. close to laying a hand on them at all. But the fact that that thought would. enter my mind and I had to like actively. mitigate it. I had to like have a man. like I couldn't do bath time.

Dad can't do bath time cuz Dad might. drown you. >> Yeah. >> Like it was so fucked up, and so I began. I as soon as I admitted that to my navy. psych, she's like, I don't think you're fit to. be in this line of work anymore. And she. was like, also like from a physical. standpoint, like you have serious issues. with your shoulders, you have serious. issues with the shrapnel. Like that alone probably would be enough. to start thinking about it. If you wanted to push through it, you. could, but she's like, I'm telling you. right now, like you're on a path that.

this doesn't end well for you, it. doesn't end well for your family, and. you're probably not even fit to be a. SEAL anymore. And I got to be honest, I was like, holy. shit. You're right. Like I'm not fucking fit. to do this job. And honestly, I was. grappling so hard with like, what why. why did we go to Afghanistan? Why were. we doing any Forget the honor or. dishonor of what we did. It's like. >> I don't know why. >> What the fuck are we doing over there? >> I don't know.

>> I was there, and I don't know. >> I don't know. >> And it's like, but wait a minute. >> family who was there, we don't know. >> But it's like, we fucking killed people. >> Yeah. >> Why? >> Politics. >> And then realizing that like I have. potentially. permanently damaged myself and not to. mention the damage I've done to other. people, of course. I'm saying like. >> Well, that 16-year-old kid that still. remembers that day. >> I bet. I bet. >> That family of that old man still. remember the American with the knife.

>> It's just. And so I I ultimately was medically. retired due to like mental instability. I mean, it was a there was an attribu-. there was an attribution cuz they give. you percentages of like literally, this. is why you were retired. I want to say it was like 20 or 30 30%. like physical injury to legs, like 50% like mentally not fit to do. this job. And. I even if I hadn't been medically. retired,

I. after coming home from that Peru. disaster, I like was truly at odds with not only. what I had done, but like with just the. idea of what I was doing. Like even if. it had been like like politics, you. know? And so now. it's like there's this part of me that. exists, but is fully suppressed all the. time. And I I've described it to people. not a lot, actually really not a lot at.

all, but it's like I I view in some ways. and maybe this is giving myself too much. not credit, but leniency. The sacrifice that a lot of people end. up making in the military is of course. there are people that pay the ultimate. sacrifice, that die or who are. physically maimed in a really horrible. way. But I would imagine that there's also. like this thing that's called moral. injury, that's a term that gets thrown. around a lot. There's like this this this sacrifice of.

fucking yourself up mentally in a way. that it'll never be fixed. Never fucking. ever, because you did damage to other. people in the process. And that is a burden that is in a way. like it doesn't comport with society. You can't Like let's think about it. If. I said, "Hey guys, I'm really struggling with. PTSD because you know, I combat was. scary and like getting shot at was. scary." People like, "Wow, like I feel. bad for you." Whatever. "I'm really fucked up because I. brutalized people that really they were.

like sort of harmless and and literally. probably innocent.". >> You believe in God? >> Huh? >> You believe in God? >> I certainly found God in Peru. >> He's going to be displeased. >> Yeah. I uh. But I think that when I think about the. sacrifice of the military, it's. and I don't say it in like a uh. an honorable way. I I mean like the. literal sacrifices at the end of it. I think some people, me being one of.

them, walk away a damaged person who did. a lot of damage. And it's unfo- it's not. the the. the mechanism by which that happened. is not something that works well in. society to talk about. >> Mhm. >> It's [clears throat] okay to talk about. when your friends got killed. It's okay. to talk about like being in combat. It's. not okay to talk about the time that you. were going to go murder somebody, but. luckily somebody intervened. Or when you. fucked people up behind closed doors, frankly because you could. Like there's really not much more to it.

Or like that you took great pleasure in. when you rolled into villages and you. watched the women and children run for. their fucking lives out into the desert. And you're going to go kill their. husbands and their brothers and their. sons. You're going to fucking kill them. That's what you're going to go do. And like you don't even know why. And. you're like, "Fuck yeah.". That's a tough thing to live with. Not. only that you did it, but that you were fucking stoked to go. do it. And so now, being Mr. Ballen, I think.

one of the things I try really hard to. do is like just. even if inside there's this horribly. fucked up part of me, like. I try so hard to like just be like a. good person now. And not like it makes. up for anything I did or whatever. But it's like giving people an outlet. in a weirdly about dark stuff, giving. them a distraction from life feels like, you know, sort of a service that's good. for people, take their mind off things. that are bad in their lives. I think. that's worth something.

You know, the foundation, you know, I. care a lot about what we're doing with. the Mr. Ballen Foundation, but like the. reality is just like. dude, I. I will always carry with me. a belief that no one really knows what a. fucking horrible person. I was. >> There's a theme running through your. story that's starting to emerge and. that's one of penance. and conscience. When we get in the third segment, I'm. going to bring that up again with. regards to your book. Um.

It's brutal, man. >> Yeah. I remember, dude, when I. when I came back from Afghanistan, I was. so fucking proud. So, so proud to like be a SEAL. >> You know, a lot of veteran creators. allow their myth to grow. >> Yeah. >> And you keep correcting the record down. Nobody else does that. Why is it so important to keep the. record straight?

>> I've found that one of the. the times I feel most proud of myself. now. is when I'm being. like self Not self-deprecating, but like. brutally honest about who I really am. I. think that I I have pretended to be. somebody at times in my life. Most notably, the SEAL thing. Not. pretended. I took on a persona.

Now, it's like I get a lot of I would. even call it fulfillment. Maybe it's. penance, I don't know. Out of like saying the ugly truths about. yourself, big or small, you know? Like I. One of the stories that I tell. that is like really sort of humiliating. and in no way really makes me even look. like I got anything good out of the. story, but I tell it. I've told it on. I've For millions of people have heard. it. It's It's the story of when I'm at. the tail end of SEAL training and.

there's this like rite of passage where. you got to sit in a cloud of. poisonous gas, CS gas, and you got to. just like take it and not run, you know? And as soon as the gas kicked off, we're. all standing in this field in formation. We're all like the 50 of us, we're all. crouched together, and I'm on the. outside of our flank, and then we're all. kneeling in this field, and all the. instructors have these these pool. sticks, and at the end of the pool. sticks, there's the CS canisters that. have been lit off, this huge white cloud. of poisonous gas, which makes you feel. like you're on fire when you breathe it.

in. And they're dousing us in CS gas, and. you got to sit there. It's like 30. seconds or a minute or whatever it is. It's like a long miserable time, and. it's like don't fucking run. And the the. instructors have the gas masks on. I I began inhaling, this is late in. training, too. This is like everybody. here's going to be a Navy SEAL, everybody. And I began inhaling the gas, and it was like fight or flight kicked. in, completely kicked in, and I'm fucking out of there. What.

wasn't thinking, nothing, I am up, and. I'm sprinting. away from the group. No one else did, zero others. I was tackled by an instructor, and they said, "Get the fuck Get Get. back with your fucking class." And I was. like, "No! Fuck, no! No!" I I Not even. consciously thinking, I'm just doing. I'm survi- This is survival coming in, right? And so they held me to the ground. as my class. sits there and takes the gas.

And they don't even know what's happened. yet, cuz they're so caught up in being. poisoned. >> Sure. It's distracting. >> And they afterwards. we all they all ran to the ocean and. jumped in the ocean, and then we all had. to run back It's out on San Clemente. Island and in Coronado. We run back into the classroom, and it's like this tiered seating, like. a college classroom, and. everybody's sitting in there, and no one. really knows what happened. In fact, no. one even is thinking that somebody ran, cuz that doesn't really happen. That. doesn't happen.

And everyone's sitting in there, and I I. know what's happened and I'm sitting in. the back and I had jumped in the ocean, too, so no one knew I did or didn't do. it. And our instructors, they come in. finally. They show up after us. We're. always sitting there waiting patiently. with our notebook and pencil and water. bottle ready to go. And they come in and um the main. instructor. uh who was just. Oh, I fucking hated this guy. Not cuz of. what he'd said or did, but he was just. really diabolical. >> That's his job. >> That's his job and he did a.

>> a good job. >> He comes in and he looks up and he goes, "Where's the pussy?". And I I know it's me. And I stand up and no one really knows. what it's about. And he proceeds to go, "Allen, I don't want to serve with you. I think. you're a fucking coward.". >> Wow. >> like, "Hey guys, he ran during the CS. gas. I'm telling you right now, you. don't want you don't want to be in a gun. fight with that guy. Like if he's going to run now, what's he going to do.

>> when your life's on the line? >> He fucking bailed on you. He's like, "Allen, sit the fuck down.". But he's like, "I hope you do not get. your trident. I don't want to serve with. you.". Now normally. it's like, "Yo, fuck you." Like stupid. shit. This was like a stern talking to. in front of my whole class. This was on. like day five of 30 days straight that. you train out at the island to to wrap. up your training. >> So you're still with these guys another. 3 weeks? >> I was like ostracized. >> Was this a lesson or did he mean it? >> He meant that. I think he meant that and I think the.

way he he meant it was either you'll. rise to the occasion and you'll overcome. this or you won't and you should be. gone. I had to wear from that moment on for. the rest of the time we were out at the. island, you wear cammies. I had to wear. these you could call it UDT shorts, like. very short shorts, like canvas shorts. I. had to put them over my pants to signify. that I was a pussy. >> Mhm. >> And you know, I tell that story in part because it's. like I did learn to. I can't make people unhear what they. heard or unthink what they think. I I.

can only sort of bear this burden. I. need to just demonstrate that I am I am. a good teammate, that this is an. anomaly, and that it's a it's a flight. instinct from poisonous gas, guys. It's. not the same thing as like my teammates. dying, I'm going to bail on them. Um but the reality is is is. I was so so humiliated. I I I I came back from the island and. I I didn't bring it up to my wife. I. didn't bring it up I I hid it. And it's.

like. it it was like shame. >> Of course. >> Because I really took on this idea that. I I wasn't good enough, you know? And. not trying to like. create connections where there aren't. I think from that point on, I was on a. mission to prove that I was I was going. to be the number one Navy SEAL. Like I might not be the best shot or the. best at tactics, but. I'll take that knife. >> Maybe part of his lesson was I know this. guy's not going to fucking run now. >> [sighs]. >> Very true.

>> Um. there's a connection there. I've heard. you say that we don't rise to our. expectations, we fall to. the level of our training. Our training. You know who that's attributed to? >> I actually don't. It's a I love that. quote. >> It's attributed to Archilochus, who was. a Greek poet, probably the. the father of Western storytelling, 7th. century BC. He was a warrior poet. He was the first soldier to talk about. fear in battle. Yeah. He's famous for. leaving his shield behind and saying, "Fuck it. This is about survival. I'll.

get another shield.". I'm surprised you didn't look into him. because it's the same story, man. >> I definitely know the quote. I have not. looked into him, though. >> He's He's an anti-hero, like like you, like a lot of the people in your. stories. Which um going into the break reminds me. the ancient Greeks. You don't use a prompter. You just kind. of. immerse yourself in the story, and you. tell it differently each time when. you're live and so forth. >> Sure. >> Do you see yourself as This is the like. the world's second oldest profession is.

the bard. It's just telling stories. Like this is This is Homer. >> Yeah. And honestly, like I can see why. it's maintained its relevance for so. long cuz it's it's. I think one of the most. amazing things about being a. storyteller, a bard, is when you have an audience that you. can watch as they listen to your story. I mean, there's it's humans are so. predisposed.

to to to like lean in when there's a. story. And if you can master the art, or if you. can just get good at telling a story. that has like those beats that people. naturally pick up on, just watching somebody be aware that. like I'm hearing a story. There's a flow. to it. There's an arc. There's going to. be some sort of resolution or twist. There's. Like I did a. We did a live tour in 2024, and I you. know, we did a several shows just live, and.

it was just me telling stories to a a. crowd, and it was just like the most fucking. incredible thing. It Nerve-wracking as. hell, and there's lots of stress around. like ticket sales and stuff. But like when you're in it, I remember I. was at the uh the Chicago Theatre, and. I before I'm like in the green room, and. it's like, "This is where Frank Sinatra. was before he went out." And it's like, "What the fuck am I doing here?". And then I went out on stage, and. just it's the sea of people. They're all.

wearing flannels, you know? And uh. >> Oh, that's. >> It was like so cool. But I remember like. I was a little nervous. It's. intimidating. >> Just a little? >> A little nervous. >> [laughter]. >> And then and then But the show started, and I like just got into telling. stories, and I remember there was this. one moment as I'm looking out at the. crowd of like thousands of people. and there was not one at least from my. perspective. Maybe there was, but I. couldn't see a single phone. None. Just eyeballs. Just like looking at me. cuz it's a story and it's like I they've. been they're invested in the story and I.

also knew that like I have something I'm. going to give them in this story that's. so fucking good and I can't wait to. watch the reaction as it like flows. across the crowd. It's it's like the most amazing feeling. Like I I it's hard to even put in words. what it's like to have like a captive. audience. Whether it's big or small, just a captive audience that you're. telling a story to is it's unmatched. >> We'll be back in a minute. We'll talk. more about how John uh Allen structures.

a story. You are famous for ethical. storytelling with true crime. Meeting. with the families, all that stuff. >> Yeah. >> Tell me about a story that you. were researching you're like, I can't do. it. >> Uh. Uh well, this doesn't. Well, this doesn't qualify as what you're. saying, but it sort of does and it's. it's an important story. I almost didn't do this one. I did and. I'm really glad I did, but I So, there's.

this. Uh it's so fucking horrible. Um. There was this girl. >> want. >> There was this girl Jessie Jessie. Blodgett. Um she uh was living in in No, I think. in Illinois. But she uh she was murdered in her her. bedroom. by a friend. And uh. it was a friend that was like known to. the family. It was a guy and I believe. there was like sexual abuse as well.

But he. killed her and like strangled her to. death like in in in her childhood bed. She's like 18. And. it was their only child. um Buck and Joy. Blodgett, who are just very sweet. people. And the reason this story. the reason I was going to tell it at all. is because I found out that it was like. the person you least suspected did it. They were like involved. They went to. the vigil. They're like, you know,

it was like the the most horrible. betrayal. I had her I just the the the. top line of the story was like. murder mystery slash like Oh my gosh, that person? Oh, you know what I mean? So, it's like, "Okay, I this this fits. the type of story I would probably. tell.". I began watching interviews about about. it. And like some of the stories that you'll. you'll hear about in the interviews you. see of like the family, it's always. devastating. It isn't like some are not. But there was this segment that I think.

it was Dateline did with Buck. And Buck. he's describing the loss of his. daughter. And he was clearly extremely. close with Cassie, like extremely close. It's his only kid. And. there's this part where he's standing in. the doorway of his daughter's room where. she was killed. And like you're looking. at it from the hallway. You're looking at Buck. And then you're seeing her room. And his voice is like cracking as he And.

he's very strong. He's a strong guy. He's like, "You know, I. I was right there. I was like next door. And I couldn't save my little girl. She. was right in here and I couldn't save. her. And I just come in here and I stand. right here and I look at the bed where. she was murdered. And I just I know that I let her down as. a father. I couldn't save her, right? Like I mean, obviously like no one. thinks about that with with Buck. And he. wasn't even home at the time. Oh, he. wasn't even home. Or I should say I think the timeline is.

such that it was a little bit unclear. when it happened. Theoretically, he. might have been just getting up for work. at the time. But, listening to a father. who's describing his child that he. couldn't save. And even though again, it's not entirely clear if he was. literally home at the time it happened, your question about other stories I. can't do, anytime. it reminds me or I should I should back. it up a little more.

When I'm telling stories, I'm invested. I I really want to tell the story. But, it it's it's sort of disassociated. from my personal life. The area that I can't help but have it. cross into my personal life is anytime. it's like. children. You know, and and I have three. And I was just thinking about. immediately. if one of my children. were harmed in some way and I felt. personally like I didn't protect them.

And And like seeing my child's bedroom. Like, this is the safe This place. they're supposed to have. And. so I ended up telling the story. Uh I. spoke to Buck and Joy. You know, it was. with full permission, you know, and we. we told the story and I I I think that. the rendition of what I told was was. very powerful because it was like based. on really deep talks and and sort of. it was just a great episode. But, shortly after we uh. we told that story, um.

we ended up launching the Mr. Ballen. Foundation and um And that's our charity. that helps victims of violent crime and. their families. And one of the first grants we gave was. to the the Blodgett family because they. had a charity that Buck had started in. Jessie's name called the Love Is Greater. Than Hate Project. >> Yep. >> Where it's like he's trying to push this. idea that like love can cancel out hate. if it's at scale. Very small charity, but like huge heart. It's like he's he's transformed extreme. grief into like action.

And now we fund, you know, $25,000 every. year. We give to Love Is Greater Than. Hate and have a great relationship with. Buck. Like he he and I talk and we text. each other and like he came he has he. was actually at that Chicago show just. by happenstance. He was there. Um. but I think that uh. when it comes to kid stuff, that's. extremely difficult. I mean, obviously, but like. there's another story. uh I did that I that I told. So, I guess. I'm sort of being contradictory.

>> That's all right. We're still getting the stories. >> Yeah, there was this guy. I think this is out in Washington state. This was back in the I want to say the. the '90s. And I think his name was Mike and I'm. pretty sure he was a pastor. He's a. religious guy. He was a He definitely. was a pastor. And in his. in his off-time, he enjoyed going hiking. and he just like regular hiking. We're. not talking like alpine crazy hikes. He. loved going hiking. And. one day, he decided he wanted to go on. like a really long hike. Uh and this was.

out like not really off trail, but. close. Like, you know, it's it's it's a. known area that people hike. You know, there are people that go out that way. out into the sticks, but it's it's. pretty remote out there and. >> This is a ball-in setup. I feel it. >> And so he heads out, which is going to. be a three-day hike and he has and and. not three days, maybe like four or five. days. And it was sort of common that he. would periodically do these longer. hikes. And so he left and his family's like. they're not worried. They're going to. see him in a few days.

And so his I think his name is Dan. So, Dan he he hikes off into the forest. [snorts]. and everything's going fine. He had he had a journal. This is how we. know this story. >> Oh, okay. >> And at some point, he decides to really. go off trail. Uh he just was feeling, you know, spring in his step. He's. feeling good. And he ends up going like. hours like off like straight line into. the wilderness until he reaches this. like clearing, which is like a boulder. field. Like if if you're not familiar.

with a boulder field, it's exactly what. it sounds like, just like huge rocks. like in all directions, you know? It's. like imagine like a stony beach, but. like huge boulders everywhere, but it's. like loose, you know? But big rocks, and. he begins jumping from rock to rock just. to make his way. There was a a little. river that sort of sat at the back end. of this huge boulder field. And so he's hopping rock to rock. And as he's getting near this this. river, he slips or something happens. where his foot goes down into one of the.

like sort of spaces between one of the. many boulders, and at the same time he. like knocks one of the rocks. It rotates. in. It does not crush his foot, but it. comp it like perfectly locked his foot. under what amounted to be like six or. 700-lb rocks just like suddenly. have collapsed around one leg. He's not. hurt, but there's no way to get your foot out. >> Oh, no. >> way. And like.

And so he at first, you know, he's all he he was afforded. the luxury of he could actually rotate. and sit. He was not in like a horribly. his his foot's not being even the. circulation's really not even being cut. off. It's just before that. It's like. having the perfect handcuff on your leg. That makes it even creepier. And so he's. sitting there out in this field, and he's got equipment to be out in the. wild. He's got like a little rain tent, and he's got like the ability to. capture, you know, water um like. evaporated water.

And he doesn't panic. And he's a very. spiritual guy. He like really believes. that, you know, basically everything. that happens is sort of happening for a. reason. And he begins documenting. what's happened, cuz he he realistically. is thinking what's going to happen here. is I'm going to be stuck in this. horrible position, but this is a well. this is a relatively well-traveled. remote area. I'm out in the open. I'm wearing bright. colors. Someone's going to see me. And his journal entries over the coming.

days. sort of. >> [snorts]. >> suggest he he was optimistic. He was. rationing his food from the start. He. wasn't in a lot of pain at all. He was. even able to sleep the way he sort of. could put his his pillow or backpack. behind his head. Like he tried whatever. he could to get it off. He knew he. couldn't. But he's like he's in good. spirits, you know. He's starting to. sunburned. You know, he's doing his best. to avoid it, but he's getting sunburned. and like going to the bathroom's a big. pain. Um but like he's basically okay. And. he's sort of looking at this as like, you know what? Ultimately, maybe this is.

exactly what I needed to be able to go. out here and have this experience. Like. this is my way of getting closer to God, of becoming more spiritual. I needed to. like have all distractions removed. It's. like me against the world. And so it's like these really poignant. entries in his journal that are like not. panicked. It's like finding meaning in. suffering is really what he's doing. And then around like the fifth day where. he's just stuck out there, now he's like the the journal entries. sort of take a turn.

and he's very hopeful that quickly. people are going to realize he's not. made the rendezvous cuz he's supposed to. be back like four or five days in. And. so it was the same day that he knew they. they'd expect him home. He's like, I I. really hope that his wife back home, he's got kids, too, uh are going to quickly realize. something's wrong. But he doesn't have a way of knowing and. he knows that like, okay, let's say they. let's say they they figure it out today. that something's off. How long will it. take to find me? He's He's thinking it's. going to take a couple days, like max.

They know where I was going roughly, but. he's also like I went pretty far off off. the beaten trail. But he's like he's optimistic still. So a couple more days go by and now, you. know, he's he's able to still drink. water, not a lot, but he has enough that he. he's not going to die of thirst. He's. basically out of food, which is more of. like. he's not dying yet, but it's very. painful. And the sunburn is like. horrible. Like he's got blisters now. Like he's becoming pretty uncomfortable. Now it's like every second is pretty. torturous.

And he begins to curse God. He begins to. curse, you know, everything he thought. he held so sacred. Like now life is. really turned in a way that doesn't feel. deep. It feels like this what's Why is. this being done to me? And. then it's like 10 10 days go by, 11 days. go by, no one's found him. There was a search party. He He didn't. know this. Eventually it reaches the point where. his handwriting is clearly degrading. Um I want to say it's like 14 or 15 days. in at this point. This is deep. He's.

been out there a while. And this is why I almost didn't tell the. story. It's like I it's crazy even thinking. about it. So this is like this devoted. father of like relatively young kids. And his entries go from initially. optimistic to a little panicked to like. what the fuck to like degrading. handwriting to then like this just. devastating calm. Where he's writing to his kids. He knows.

he's going to die. Like it's the end and. he's telling them all the things that he. wishes he could have told them if he was. alive to do it. He's like giving advice. to his kids and he's he's trying to. remind them to like be strong and like. that you know, your dad loves you and. that like. this isn't your fault and it's it's like. in his final moments all he cares about. is his kids and his wife, too. And it's. reading those entries and just honestly, like I I I I can't really envision. myself in that position. But in a in a way it's like you it's.

universal as soon as you like have a kid. or not even like when you have someone. you really care about. Suddenly like being like I'll never see. them again. And like, Dan. had days of 100% knowing like I'm I'm on. the way out and I will never see my. children again. I'll never see my wife. again. And uh so his final entries are. devastating and then as of course fate. would have it, he dies and like.

literally according to the entries it. was like hours later he was found. >> Oh, no. >> And so like, you know, I I told that. story actually I I actually. put it to the side. I wasn't going to. tell it at all and and it it truthfully. it's because I did I didn't think I. could keep it together. emotionally telling it. Um. but in some ways. I and this is it's. earlier we were talking about like how. it's frustrating it is when things get. demonetized and it might make the.

impression that it's all about that. It's more like there is a business to. this. There totally is. Like I do make. decisions based on whether or not things. can be monetized. Will it get clicks? Of. course that's part of it. That's part of. like being relevant this long. But like. that doesn't mean that I've lost sight. of like the the the thing that really I. do, which is I tell those types of. stories. And. I felt like I owed it to to Dan and his. family to tell that story and I I did. And there were loads of comments from. people that knew Dan and and it was like.

amazing to see like the memories flowing. in about Dan and his wife and it was. like this this communal thing of people. reminiscing about how wonderful he was. Um. So yeah, I think that that one anything. to do with kids has been a consistent. difficult one. >> Well, put put us in the room with a. family and you don't have to name any. names or give any information, but I'd. like to know what they said to you that. you walked out of like, all right, I got. to make some changes. >> What do you mean? >> Like.

I don't know were you always this. focused on the victims? >> Oh, yeah. So like how did it come to be. that I do it this way? >> Because everyone knows you meet with the. families. >> Not always. Not always. Not always. Not. always. >> but you do from. >> There's like real intention behind it. I. would say like. in terms of how many stories that make. it to the air that literally I spoke to. the family with, I wouldn't say it's a. lot, but it's a meaningful amount, you. know? And I would also say that it's not.

uncommon to have a video that goes out. that ends up connecting with that. family, that turns into a relationship. with our charity, that turns into a. long-standing relationship with the. entire entity in that family. And like. we we've seen that play out many times. where like we have people that we. support through the charity that it like. started with their story that we got. from public information. We told it as. ethically as we could, but it's all. there. It's all public. And then that. was what bridged the gap and connected. us to them. Um but in terms of like why I tell a.

story the way I do, you know, you could make the case that. it's because I'm trying to be ethical, and I think that's fair. I definitely. am. But I would actually go. to be. I told you I'm pretty shamelessly honest. about stuff. In the very beginning, when I was thinking about how do I. structure stories. to make them really interesting, something that I naturally do, but I became much more conscious of it, is.

if you really want people to pay. attention to a story, I think it's. important that you make. aspects of the story relatable, no. matter how unrelatable the story. actually is. Like, is it relatable, you. know, to the average person of like what. it's like to be a victim of a serial. killer? Probably not. But is it relatable to to be someone. who's scared about someone tapping on. the glass or like the fear that. someone's coming in their house? It is. And so in terms of like purely a. storytelling device, if you're telling a story about a serial.

killer, if you want the audience to like. really have an emotional connection to. the story, you're far better off not going the. route which most people do, at least. sort of generally speaking, which is. like you you take a perspective from. like the killer's perspective or. third-person perspective where you're. focused on like the violence or the gore. or like the horrible thing that happened. because that is that's what happened, right? But a more powerful way in terms of just. emotional connection to the story that. that I have found has been effective,

put people in the mind of the woman. who's running down the hallway cuz. something's behind her. How many of us. have been scared even just running up. our stairs from the basement cuz we. think something's behind us. It's like a. human fear. And so when you're thinking about how to. make a story really land, and what I. mean by that is to be like emotionally. resonant with people, make them feel like they're in the. story. And you can't do it if you're. like, "And then fucking Ted Bundy showed. up and you this is the horrible thing he. did." That then you're learning about. something. You're not in it. And so I was telling stories naturally.

with like I knew people were more. invested if they could be in a story. with you, you know? And so I took that. approach naturally and then I also. realized that the types of stories I'm. telling, the people that don't get a lot of. credit, or I should say the people that. often are lost in the story, are the. victims. You know, it's like the blood. and gore and like the the the the. tragedy is the thing that sort of makes. the headlines if if at all, but like the the victim themselves. beyond being oh they they were a. wonderful person who died, right? Beyond. that, a lot of times they're sort of.

lost. And I have found inhabiting the. victim or the. sometimes we'll do it the other way. around, but it's almost always the. victim. It leaves a mark on people. Sometimes, if I've done a good job, it really. leaves a mark. And I think from the the. lens, I think, of the families and the. victims and the people left behind, it just feels far more appropriate when. they're hearing a story that's clearly. designed to like elevate the person who. the bad thing happened to, but not in a. phony way. It's like you're learning.

about them. You're learning about what. they were they were doing and. potentially what they were thinking. about and sort of what happened to them. and when the thing happens to them, they they they become relatable enough. that the audience is like, "Fuck, that's. that's bad. Oh my god. I can't even. imagine.". versus like unnamed victim number three. of a serial killer. It's like, "Yeah, that that makes for documentary. material, but it's far less emotionally. impactful.". So, effectively from a storytelling. purely storytelling perspective, I have. found. get the audience to feel something and.

they'll remember the story. You know, and oftentimes blood and gore. feels like it might you might think it's. something it's emotion, but I don't. think it is. I think it's it's just like. it's it's it's like fireworks. >> Yeah, you know. And uh. I do also I I maybe it's just the shame. I've felt from being overseas or. something, but I've I'm so cognizant of. the fact that. these are real people in the stories. Not every story is a death or tragedy,

but it usually is. >> Yep. >> And. like I'm very aware of that and I don't. hide from that. >> That's an invasive technique and. effective and it definitely connects the. audience and it just happens. to be ethical. Just the same way that. you don't really name the killers or. idolize the killers until the end. That's very ethical, but it also is. better storytelling because the fear. becomes nameless. >> Yep. >> Now, what happens if the story's better. by naming the killer? Do you make that.

move? Or do you stay ethical? >> Truthfully, the the way we. every literally every story we do this. So, this is this is like there isn't one. that we didn't do this. So, I can't even. think of one where we broke the mold. We will not give something away unless. it's practically required. It like if. there's a story that literally requires. it. Like a good example would be and. this is one of the very few times we did. something like this. Like I told a story.

about 9/11 from the perspective of. someone who was in the building when it. went down. I interviewed him, the whole. thing. Um. I couldn't disguise that this was 9/11. You know what I mean? Uh. but like we have done stories that are. covered extensively. And we're not. trying to trick people, but if you tell. the story the way that I've just sort of. laid out, a lot of times it you don't. know what that story's going to be until. at the end it's sort of revealed what it. is. Like one of my.

uh one of my favorite sh- little short. stories that is about a very well-known. person. Um. it starts with this couple and this is. back in like the 1970s. There's this couple that goes on a date. out in in Utah. It's first date. They. don't know each other really at all. And. they go to this like waffle house or. something equivalent and they're having. this like totally lame no chemistry. date. Like it's just not going well. And um. the guy who's not a guy who would do.

this normally. He's like realizing at the end of the. date like this is going nowhere. I'm. never going to see this girl again and. and he was a big hiker. He loved to. hike. And sort of on a whim at the end of this. date where they're like, all right, all right, time to go. He's like, hey, do you want to go on a hike with me. right now? And she's like, what? Like what do you mean? Like it's. like 8:00 at night. Like what do you. mean a hike right now? Like what? But. she's like intrigued. You know, she's. like, okay, they're doing something new.

here. And uh he's like uh yeah. There's this There's a canyon that I'd. love to go hiking in. It's It's like. Provo Canyon. It's right over there. It's like not far from here. There's a. little pullout. Quick walk. It's It's. beautiful. Just we'll go up there, come. out, and be awesome. She's like, "You know what? All right, let's do it. Let's go.". And so suddenly the date has gone from. being, you know, sort of lame to being. like kind of exciting, you know? And so they they leave the Waffle House. They hop in his car and they drive over.

the parking lot and they're like giddy. like, "Oh, this is so cool.". And uh they get out and and they're. holding hands now and they're like. they're walking into the the the forest. It's a it's a totally well, it's a. trail. Like it's a trail they're on and. there's nobody else out here. They're walking along and they would. they would later say this to each other, but at the time they didn't say this. They're walking along, everything's. exciting, but they're they get into the. tree line and they're sort of they're. leaving the comforts of the street. lights. and they're going off into the forest. and as they get deeper and deeper into.

the forest, there's very very good. illumination from the moon, so it's not. like totally pitch black. As they get. deeper and deeper into the woods, like the sense of dread sort of washes. over both of them and they didn't. articulate it to either they neither of. them said this. This is only in. retrospect they realized they both had. this feeling. They're both getting the. sense of dread. And they began like sort of white. knuckling like grabbing each other's. hand a little harder, walking a little. faster. The giddiness is a little bit. gone. Now they're like walking with a. purpose just to like get to the. turnaround point and just get out of.

here. It's a little they're a little. spooked. They don't know each other well. enough to like really even talk. They. like, "What the fuck are we even doing. out here?" sort of thing. And so they reach this point of the. trail that again it's a it's a trail. It's not you're not off in the you're. like on a trail. But the the trees were pretty dense over. the over the top. It was a section that. was pretty dark even though the the. illum is pretty good. And they're like silently now speed. walking along this trail. And then at some point the guy.

he steps on something that he describes. as feeling soft, just soft and he just. stops. And the girl who's next to him, she. doesn't step on anything, but she sees. him stop. and she stops instinctively cuz remember. she's on edge, they're both on edge. And like without any hesitation, without. saying a word, they both just turned. around still hand in hand and they. fucking speed walked out of there. Just. walked out of there. Just were like. just going. Nope. Boom, they get back to. the car, they drive home. As they're.

driving home like, "Man, like jeez, okay, that was fun. Wow, crazy." And so. they have this date, they never really. talk about what happened out in the in. the trail. They actually would get married, these. two. >> Of course Of course they get married. They They tell How I Met Your Mother, like this is great. >> So they get married. Years go by. Years. go by. And one day they're at home and the the. wife. is like she has the news on and they. I forget who was where, but like one of. them is in the kitchen like making food.

and the other is like watching TV or is. like sort of my I mindlessly watching. TV. And at some point the one in the kitchen. hears the other call out like, "Hey, you. got to You got to come see this.". And there's an interview that's playing. on TV with this criminal, this death row. inmate who's giving this tell-all. interview. And it's effectively on on the eve, if. you will, of their execution. And it's. sort of like this no holds barred sort. of like being up front about what.

they've done to a degree. And at some point this this interview, which was like really like the reason. they'd been called over is like this is. like powerful stuff, right? At one point the interview interviewer. asked this the person like. "Before you were caught, before you. obviously got caught, did you ever did you ever almost get. caught? Like what was the closest you. came to getting to being captured before. you really were?". And the guy's like, "Yeah. There's one time in particular.

I was out in Provo Canyon. and I had just killed a girl. and I was dragging her across a trail to. cover. and this couple comes speeding around. the corner and the guy stepped on her. and I was getting ready to kill them, but for some reason they didn't look. down, they didn't say anything, they. just turned around and they left. It was Ted Bundy. >> Holy shit. >> The prolific serial killer Ted Bundy. and he they'd stepped on one of his. victim's bodies. So like that's an. example of a story that like it sort of.

works because it's Ted Bundy and you. only say it at the end. And I mean like. that's a story that like I I tried to. get like so all the substantiating. details and like to be honest like I. think there's there's a story that. exists where this happened. Like exactly. how it happened I don't know, but this. is their rendition of what's happened. and it's a it's a great it's a great. story and like. Can I put you on the spot? >> Yeah, please. >> I mean cuz that's a master class you. just did. I saw that class in the art of. storytelling for Audible. Can you. >> That that class? What do you mean?

>> That the Ted Bundy. It was a great I. don't want to give it away because it's. so good. >> Yeah. >> This is something you did with Evan like. a while ago. Long time ago. >> Yeah. >> Can you do another one that maybe we. don't know? >> Oh look another story with a with a. twist. Have you heard the um. >> Or maybe something from the book that no. one's ever heard. >> Those ones like are not I actually I I. have a story that maybe is not as great. as a twist but it's a fucking great. story. >> Do it. >> Great story. Um and it's actually one that I I think.

it's on YouTube but it's one of those. like deep cuts that I I don't think I. did a great job telling it on YouTube. I. really don't cuz I think that it's. Here it is. All right. So in um it was. March 2nd, 2006. There's this. police officer Sergio Puchetta is his. name. And he was a police officer out in rural. Argentina in this in this in this part. of rural Argentina called La Pampa. And. you know, he he I I think he was part of. a a police department that was pretty.

small, but one of their main. issues in the area was was poaching. Uh in particular, there was this. intersection called uh Las Cruces de las. Canas. And it was like this known just four-way. intersection sort of in the middle of. nowhere in a place that's sort of the. middle of nowhere. um where there was these like little. batches of forests, if you will, little. crops of trees where these exotic birds. and monkeys and like big cats would. live. And then and poachers would go out.

there late at night and they would they. would uh you know, capture these animals. and poach them. And so it was not unusual for Sergio to. be out there on his motorcycle puttsing. along, you know, this area in La Pampa. La Las Cruces de la Cana uh looking for. poachers. And it was usually pretty easy. to find them. Like they honestly were. pretty brash about it. They would just. do it late at night. There's nobody out. there. They just roll up in cars and. just like go set their traps or. whatever. And Sergio is not a veteran by any. means, but he's been doing this a while. And so on March 2nd, 2006,

he's out on the road on his motorcycle. and he's he's he's driving along and. it's been a sort of nothing night. He. hasn't seen any poachers. And um. as he's nearing for like the 10th time. that night cuz he's sort of doing a loop. where he would always pass by that. intersection de las Canas, he's coming down the road and you got to. picture it's sort of a beautiful It's. very It's very middle of nowhere vibes, but it's it's it's actually So, La. Pampa's known for its just unbelievable. like mountain ranges and like cowboy.

culture. It's like it's like the wild. west sort of. Um. it's like this beautiful scenery and and. really as you're driving other than the. little little splotches of forest, it's. sort of like barren, but sort of. beautiful. He's driving along. There's. no street lights, just some moonlight. and and he's looking way down the road. at this intersection up ahead that again. is like several football fields away. And he like looks down for a second for. no reason. He just like looks down at. his handlebars. And he looks back up and. he sees it's a car. That sort of. suddenly is the brake lights are on.

It's way off in the distance. Um but it's clearly coming to a stop at. the intersection that is the sort of. troubled area. Um given what time it is, given how. suddenly they showed up, he's thinking. they must have just pulled out. Like. it's too it's too odd that it would be. right now. Like I don't know. And so. he's far enough back that he's like, "I'm going to slow roll and sort of like. creep up and see what they're doing.". Cuz it's like he needs them to be doing. poaching to get them in trouble. And so he's he's like puttering along,

still keeping his distance. And he sees the car the brake lights. come off again and the red lights sort. of disappear for a second and it starts. to roll forward. And like suddenly the. car veers to the right. This is again, it's far enough off he can clearly see. it happening, but he doesn't really know. what's what they're doing. They veer right and they appear to just. drive into the the forest that's right. next to this this intersection. Um. forest is a bad description of it. If. you look at pictures online, it it's. more like a crops of trees. But it's.

it's thick enough that you can't see. into it, right? So the car is like. vanished. And Sergio's like, "Poachers. I mean, what they're doing is. a little aggressive cuz you're driving. your car like into the forest, you're. going to scare away a lot of the. animals. But like, okay, these has got. to be po- poachers.". And so he's not thinking there's. anything strange about this other than. I'm I'm about to go catch some poachers. And so he he speeds up down the road. Not not too bad. He doesn't want to. totally give away his position and like. you know, floor it. But he goes down. and he gets to the intersection. And.

when he gets to the intersection, he. starts looking just past like onto the. next segment of road cuz it's very. quickly after the intersection they. veered off from where he was. And he. starts looking for tire tracks to see. where they entered the forest cuz he. can't see the car. The car's gone. And so he's like he goes past the. four-way and he he pulls his bike over. to the side of the road. And he gets. off. He doesn't turn his flashlight on. or or call out cuz he's still sort of. trying to keep a low profile. He can't. hear anything. All he hears is. there are these birds that are really. unique in the area called like song jars.

or like night night jars. They're called. night jars. And they have a really. unique sound. And there's like this. humming of like cicadas and night jars. It's like the night ambience, but. there's no people sounds. There's no. vehicle sounds. And there's there's no tracks on the. ground. There's there's no sign that any. car was here at all. And. Sergio's like, "Okay." Like obviously. there's an explanation for this, you. know, it's it's dark. I can't really see. too well. So, he's like, "Okay, there's. definitely poachers. They're probably. just hiding from me now.".

And so, he pulls out his radio. And he calls in for backup. He's like, "Hey, here's where I am. Unsurprisingly, there's got to be a poacher out here.". But, you know, backup could be quite a. bit of ways, and who knows who's going. to show up. And he's not like that. scared of this. He's like, "I need to go. in there and confront these guys, you. know.". So, he draws his gun. And he begins walking off the road sort. of broadly into this forest where he. believes the the car has driven off to. So, into the forest he goes.

So, he goes in the forest and like. minutes later, as far as we can tell, and this is a highly documented story. Like easy to look up. All the. information's there. Police reports, you. name it. This is considered Well, we'll. get we'll keep going. At the same time he wanders off into. this forest, one of his I I think it's his friends, but it's another cop who works with. Sergio. He's He's at home. He's nowhere near. Cruces de las Canas. He's home. He's. about to go to bed, and his cell phone. rings. And he sees it's it's Sergio. calling. And like, you know, it's his.

not his close friend, but it's someone. he would pick up the phone for any time. of the day. Answers the phone. And it's Sergio. And the guy's like, "Hey, what's going on?". And all Sergio says, and he says he says. it twice, is, "Come to las Canas. You. know what to do." And the guy's like, "What?". He's like, "Come to Las Canas. You know. what to do." And then he hung up. And so the friend is like, "What? What did what?" Like he's trying. to put together what he could mean. He. knows that area is known for poachers,

so like I guess that could be Why are. you calling me? Like I'm off duty. Like this all It's a. weird It's a weird thing. Weird enough. that the friend is like, "You know what? I feel like I got to call this in. This. is weird.". And so he calls like headquarters and. says, "Hey, you know, I I know Sergio's. on patrol. I think he's on patrol. He. just called in this weird thing about. Las Canas. He's Maybe he's got poachers. or something, but I I'm I'm sort of. worried about him. And I just want to. make sure that you guys know about this. Maybe you should go check on him." And. dispatch is like, "Actually, we're.

worried about him because he called us. and said, 'I We want to We I need I need. backup because there's apparently. poachers in the area.' The officers have. just arrived on scene and they found his. bike, but they haven't found him.". And so the the three officers that the. backup, they're there and they find his bike. It's on the side of the road. Uh all. they were told is that he had called in. poachers and that they needed, you know, whatever help or something. And so now they have their flashlights. out. They're not trying to be secretive. They're They're They're scouring the.

area near the bike and this there's. quite a quite a decent margin from the. road. Like there's a sloping down of. like grass and scree and then there's. like the the forest where like. presumably the poachers could be. And no. one's gone in there other than Sergio, but they don't know he's gone in there. And so they're looking and they're like, "What in the world is going on here?". Like there's nowhere else for him to be. really beyond this forest. And so they uh. They They do So, let me back it up.

Make sure I get this detail right. They start scouring the area and then. they find on the side of the road. there's like this little glint of of. like metal. It's the only thing they. find. There's the bike, there's no tire. tracks, there's no Sergio. They find like metal in the side of the. road. They go over and they look at it. and they discover it is Sergio's gun and. it's his radio, but they've been. disassembled to their component parts. Which like, you know, anyone could do. that. It isn't like they've been. shattered, they've been disassembled and.

they're just like sitting on the side of. the road. And and that's it. Okay, so. that that's I remember I want to make. sure I had that right. So, that's all. they find. And so at this point, when they discover. the radio combined with the the the call. from the friend and like all of this, they're like something's wrong. Something's wrong with Sergio. We don't. know where he is. And so before they go into the forest, they're like, we need to legitimately. treat this like there's like a a big. emergency here. Let's call in more. reinforcements. Let's really search the. area. >> [snorts]. >> And so, this huge search party that.

night is is set up like very quickly and. they they go into the forest. Again, they don't really know. they definitely don't know he went in. the forest. They don't know really. anything. All they know is like he. called it in. So, they're looking. everywhere, they can't find him. They. cannot find him. And it starts like. pouring rain and they're like staying. out there. They they they don't care. They're looking for their partner, they. can't find him. So, all night there's. this big effort in this relatively small. area and other than the crops of trees, there's there's nowhere else to go. And Sergio's nowhere to be found.

There's there's no poachers, there's no. vehicle, there's nothing. Disassembled. gun, bike, the various weird radio calls, that's it. The next day, it's now been like 18. hours since Sergio. called in, "Hey, I need backup. I. believe there's poachers.". There's this farmer. has no fucking clue what's going on with. Sergio or anything. He's totally. disconnected. He's. 12 miles away. He's at this He's at his. land and he's he walked down to the. road, like his long driveway connected. to the road, and he looks down the road.

and he sees there's someone sitting on. the side of the road. And they're. sitting on the ground and there's no. vehicle nearby. This is this is rural. Argentina. This is not normal. And so the farmer, he walks over and. it's it's been pouring rain all night. So it's like sloppy and wet out. He's. like, "What is this person doing out. here?". And he makes his way over to this person. and he discovers it's a police officer. who's who's sitting in the fetal. position on the ground. Dry dry as a bone. Like whatever the.

expression is, he's completely dry. And he's sort of like rocking back and. forth and he looks very distraught. Like. immediately it's obvious something's. wrong. And the farmer asked him like, "Who are you? What are you doing here? Like what's going on?" And he he didn't. say anything. And so the farmer is like, "Something's off.". Calls the authorities. The police show. up and they're like, "Oh my god, it's. Sergio.". And Sergio, when he looked up like there. was paramedics that showed up and like. he didn't really react and then he saw. like his boss who he was very close with.

and when his boss got there, Sergio got. up and rushed over to him and just. hugged him and began weeping and just. sat there weeping on his shoulder for. like several minutes and everyone's. like, "What is going on?". >> [snorts]. >> So Sergio doesn't say anything to. anybody. They're asking him like, "What. are you doing here? We've been looking. for you. Like what happened?" And he's. saying nothing. Like he's not. It's clear he wants to say something but. he's saying nothing. He's just like. shell-shocked. And so they bring him to the hospital. They're like, "Let's just focus on. making sure he's okay." They're assuming.

that at this point he's been kidnapped. by the poachers. and he's been dropped off here. He's. likely been tortured. There're. definitely going to be things wrong with. him. Like this guy needs a medical. evaluation. So they bring him to the hospital. And at first he's like sort of unwilling. to be touched. But then eventually he. sort of allows them to do an exam. And they check him top to bottom and. he's physically fine. You know, he's. actually he turned out he was hydrated. He was he was fed. He was he was. healthy. The only odd thing is he had. these not severe but pronounced burns on.

the underside of his feet that were like. in his boot, like he had burned feet. But other than that, you know, he was. fine. And so for a while, like the police and. the nurses and the doctors, they're just. like, you know, whenever you're ready, like. tell us, you know, what happened to you. cuz like we really can't put this. together. It doesn't make any sense. Eventually, he would he would he would. begin to tell his story. And it is today. regarded at least in Argen- Argentinian.

paranormal lore, this is considered one. of the most credible accounts of. paranormal activity that exists. And you. can look it up for yourself. So, um. Sergio, who would retire specifically. because of what he saw this night, he said he was driving down, he saw the. car up ahead, called it in, poachers, right? And he said, "I pulled up. I I didn't. see him, you know, I didn't see tire. tracks, whatever. And so I called in back up and I drew my.

gun and I. walked into the forest. And as soon as I'm in the forest, it was. like eerie. Like quiet. It's so loud. normally with all the insects and the. bugs and then the. the nightjar birds and everything. It's. like eerie and quiet and it's like very. dense in this little pocket of trees. And he's he's moving forward and he's. like, "As I'm walking, I'm I'm really. aware of the fact that it doesn't make. sense that a car would have plowed in. here and vanished. Like there'd be signs. of it and there's not." But then all of.

a sudden he looks up ahead and he thinks. he sees something that like might. represent like metal, like a car. somewhere in the distance. So he like. wills himself, despite feeling sort of. uneasy, to keep going. And he gets like, you know, well into. the crops of trees to only to discover. that like, "Oh, it's nothing." But as. he's standing effectively in the middle. of the trees, he said that I I heard. something behind me. And it's it's dark. And he turns around. and there are these two sets of glowing. red eyes that are looking back at him in.

the forest. And they're like looking at him in such. a way that it's clear they're moving. towards him. Like he can tell that there. are [clears throat] these eyes that are. set they're moving in his direction. And he said he immediately felt this. pressure in his chest. That it was so. powerful that he like he couldn't speak, he couldn't move, and he's just stuck. there staring. And he said these two figures emerged. like from the shadows, like from the the. moonlight that these these gray slender. figures that are walking like a person. bipedal. And they got right up in front.

of him, and he said that I just. immediately felt like my chest was going. to cave in, and it was just so it was so. clear that these these figures with red. eyes are are in control of me. I can't. control myself anymore. And sure enough, he said that he felt. himself suddenly begin to stiffen up. And he's just staring at these eyes, and. he began bending over backwards like in. a grotesque way until he was folded. halfway over backwards. Not like broken. back, but fully contorted. And then he turned, and he's he's he's. he's like, "I wasn't doing it.".

And I began walking in reverse bent over. backwards as he's staring at these two. figures as they sort of corralled him as. he backtracked. back onto the road. And the whole time. he's looking up at these two looming. figures with the red eyes that are just. not saying anything moving towards them. He goes out to the road, and he's still. bent over, and he said he felt his hands. come out of his like position he's in, and he reached down, he pulls his his. gun, which I think at that point he had. reholstered it, and he disassembles his. gun, drops it to the ground, disassembles his radio, drops it to the.

ground. And then after that, he was. like, "Suddenly I was standing back up. again. I'm staring at these two figures, and they're like maybe in between doing. something to me.". Um and I left that a key detail which. I'll fill in now, but it's okay. He's like, "I I I took a run for it. I. just started running back into the the. forest.". Backpedal back backing up very quickly. When they did the search for Sergio, they found a single set of footprints. that started somewhere in the tree line.

And they followed them, and it went out. to the back of the crops of trees, and. then it carried off into this field. There was like a crop. field of crops off in the distance, and. they they found the footsteps. They went. out like a mile into this this field. But the footsteps, they were like. clearly human footsteps, and they began. getting further and further spaced. apart. And for This is during the night. of the search when they can't find him. They found these footsteps that were. like 3 ft apart, 5 ft 5 ft apart. Like. so far apart at certain points that. they're like, "We must be missing.

footprints." Like it didn't it it it. it looked like he was sprinting and. leaping. >> Right. >> But then eventually it reaches the edge. of this this field, this corn field, or. whatever crop it was, and there's one. final right footprint in the ground, and. then nothing beyond it. So that's that's. that's the other detail that they had of. where the fuck is Sergio, right? So now. he's telling his story. He's like, "I'm. out there. I've disassembled the gun and. the radio, and I made a run [snorts] for it. And as. soon as I ran, I try I like jumped. practically to get into the forest to.

get out of the tree to have them not see. me. And as soon as I jumped, I felt like I. was going to hit the ground, but I. didn't. It's like I stopped and. levitated over the ground, and then I. lost control of my body again. I was put. back up into an upright position, and as. soon as my feet touched the ground, I. start running, and then suddenly I'm. being thrown into the air. And like I'm. crashing down. It's like this He he knew. the the red-eyed beings were chucking. him into the air over and over, and he. said he made it out to the back of the. crops of trees. And he [snorts] actually got a pretty.

decent stretch of running. Like he's, "Okay, they're they're not going to do. it anymore. They're going to stop. chucking me in the air with their mind. powers, right?". And he said, "I began like taking a. stride, and they'd like push me in the. air.". And that's what started to account for. these gaps. It was like they were. chucking him an actual 5 or 10 ft with. each step he took, and he'd come. crashing back down. He's just sprinting. along, but at a certain point, when he. neared the edge of this this corn field, he was so exhausted, and he knew like. they have full control over me. Like, I. don't know what they're going to do to. me, but I can't I can't combat whatever.

it is they are and what they're doing. And so, he just stopped. He just. stopped, and he knows they're behind him. cuz they've been behind him. He can feel. their presence, and he's run off now. into the back of this corn field, and he finally just turns around to like. confront whatever or whoever this is. And he turns around, and there's nothing. there. And for a second, he's like, "Where are. they?". And then he like feels something behind. him. And then he turns back around, and now it's like he's on the edge of.

the world as if the world disappears. beyond where he's standing. It's like a. cliff and just a black void where the. edge of this field had been. Like, the. world vanished in front of him, and in. the void in front of him now are these. two sets of red eyes. And he felt. himself being pulled into the void, and. then he has no memory, and then he woke. up on the side of the road 18 hours. later. And to this day, there are two things. about this that are crazy. One is they. did an extensive, because it was. actually pretty humiliating for the.

police force to learn the story came out. because Sergio was like, "Yeah, that's. what happened. Like, aliens are throwing me around, you. know?" Like, that was the official. report, and it was like this big deal, and it was sort of humiliating for the. local cops in this stupid story about. like how aliens did this to this guy, right? They're like, "Obviously, you got. duped by poachers" was sort of the. running theme. And so, they ran like as. extensive of an investigation as they. could really on Sergio. Like, trying to. catch him and misrepresenting what. happened, and there's just He stuck to.

the story. They went out there. I mean, they couldn't find really any details. that either corroborated or or rejected. it, but they couldn't find a better. explanation. And then more than that, that particular. set of trees off of the Cruce de las. Canas intersection, historically, for. years, tourists, authorities have. pointed out there are strange lights, red lights in particular, that are. constantly seen in that forest that are. often accompanied with silence inside of.

the forest. And to this day, that's. known as like a hotbed of paranormal. activity and people still report seeing. strange lights, red lights in those. trees. And if you look at the image of. that little crops of trees, the fact. that it's like this one like sort of. little crops of trees in the middle of. fucking nowhere and the idea that like. some crazy shit's happening in there, it's like terrifying. Yeah. So, it's a. good story. It is a good story. Do you. believe Sergio? I believe that Sergio's telling the. truth of whatever he thinks experience. like so that that's the thing is like I.

am. I I would I would say I'm far closer to. like a full send believer than I am a. skeptic and it's really easy to say as. much cuz it's like okay, well, let me. get this straight. So, we're on planet. Earth that's in this ungodly big. universe and we're it there's nothing. else we know all the stuff. Like give me. a break. We don't. Yeah, like so so like. just logically, that's impossible to me. The idea that. there isn't stuff beyond our. comprehension, there aren't entities. beyond our our powers and our under like.

that to me that's crazy. And would be devastatingly depressing if. that were true. And so, I'd rather. believe there's more out there. Um. but I think that with Sergio, if you. just like look up his account, like it's. a guy who's grappling with like I don't. know what happened. This is the best. This is my limited human understanding. of what happened to me and I don't know. what happened to me. I mean, the way you tell it is so good. It's a masterclass in withholding. Um and definitely definitely good for.

watch time. So, yeah. When I tell an. urban legend or a mystery, the first two. acts I tell the story as it's true and. then my third act is break it down. >> Yeah. >> What did I find out? And I can see on my. charts people just drop When I say, "But. is it true?" people just drop off. They're like, "I'm out.". >> [laughter]. >> They don't want to hear it. And I hear. it in the comments, "You ruined the. story. You know, you should do it Mr. Ballen does. You know, we're just here. for the fun." Am I making a mistake? >> Depends. Because like there's there's. two ways to look at it. Like if you are.

looking at it from the perspective of. your job is ultimately if if if you. believe your job is to be entertaining, probably shouldn't do that. Because what. you've done is the first two acts, you're allowing them to suspend their. disbelief and they want that. And. actually I have a question for you. that's going to follow this. >> Wait, this is in your show? >> No, this is a I wanted to ask you this. Like. they are suspending their disbelief or. their they're just or they choose to.

believe whatever it is. But it's like. they want that. And so even if they fully wholeheartedly. agree with any of of the the the. dissenting opinions or whatever in the. third act, like they don't want that. because it hurts like the feeling they. get about it, right? And so my question. and this is a broad question. It's like. there are like there are millions and. millions of people that tune into you. and tune into me and other people that. tell stories like this. that are smart, logical, rational.

people. Why are they drawn to things like this? And it's it's not a gotcha. Like think. about it. I would venture My answer would be. people like to be scared in a safe. environment and the unknown is scary and. it feels cool to think that there's. something else out there and it's like. safe and controlled. But there might. even be something more to it. Like it's. maybe the thrill of like. I don't know. Like the idea that there. are things out there that are scarier, stronger, bigger. Like I don't know. I.

think that cuz I don't think paranormal. is often tied to good stuff. It's tied. to like scary stuff. It's tied to like. dark. >> Well, you're the philosopher. What what. not the mechanics of the roller coaster. why, but what's the psychology? Why do. we need cuz we need it. >> Yeah. Um well, you know, I I always that. something that was profound that I. learned that is so simple and maybe. that's the most the most profound things. are often simple. >> They are. >> We only understand, this is what someone.

told me. We only understand things in. terms of like relatives. For example, like I really only actually know what. hot is because I've experienced cold and. vice versa. I only really know what like. tall is because I've seen short. You get. the idea. Everything is like in. contrast. Somebody once was in one of my. philosophy classes was talking about. this idea that like. we don't even realize how limiting that. really is. Like. you know, there are.

what. it is entirely possible given the way. that humans only understand things based. on like clear contrast that there could. be, let's just be cliché about it, aliens amongst us that you wouldn't. actually be able to recognize as. anything cuz they don't contrast with. what you know. And it's like your brain wouldn't. necessarily be able to interpret them. cuz there isn't the natural contrast for. it. Like we as humans are so like. literally known to be egocentric. >> Sure. >> Everything we do is sort of like.

self-interested to some degree. And like. I've Neil deGrasse Tyson, the. astrophysicist, he gives this amazing. thought experiment that sort of it. touches on this element of humanity that. is often overlooked, which is like, okay. So, let's talk about like the the. likelihood of there being life outside. of Earth, right? And he's like, okay. So, on Earth right. now, you know, humans have DNA, you. know, and he's much more poignant and. more accurate with his with what he. says, but I'll I'll give the spirit of.

it. He's sort of like there's 100 pieces. of DNA, let's say, that make up a human. DNA strand. And like that that those 100 pieces, and. that's not the right number, but those. 100 pieces, that's what makes us human. You got to. have all 100. Boom, that's that's that's. a human. He's like, "What What's our What's our. closest, in just purely in terms of. DNA?" And he's like, "It's probably the. chimpanzee." And they have like, and he. actually had the numbers. It was like. 97. They got 97. They don't got 100, they got 97, though. They're really close. And like we can.

see that. We We know that there's. there's closeness there. They're like. similar to the to us in the way they. move. There's like a similar like family. bond there. They even kind of look like. us. And he goes, "What do we do with chimpanzees? What do. humans do with chimpanzees? Science experiments, zoos." He's like, "When was the last time you're like, 'You know what I really want? I want to. go talk to a chimpanzee. I want to go. learn about chimp'" I mean, maybe you do. that through a documentary, but it's. like. we mistreat them. Cuz they're not human, right? Right. And.

those are the Those are the high ones. He goes, "What about. What about like. an ant? Or like a worm? Forget like interactions with them. Their DNA's like, you know, 90 versus. our 100. He's like, "When was the last. time you're walking down the street and. you're like, uh. 'Oh, there's the There's an earthworm. Let me Let me try to chat with this. earthworm.'" Now, you might step on the. earthworm and not even know. He's like, "When we as humans think. about what could be in terms of life.

outside of of planet Earth, right? He's like we automatically sort of act. like they they'd be like us, you know? They'd be just like us. I mean, something similar, right? I mean, maybe. Maybe that could totally be true, right? But what if we're the fucking worm? Yeah. What if literally they don't give a shit. about us? That they don't It wouldn't. even register. That makes more sense to me. You know, and it's like, "Oh, wow. We sort of have. come at this like, well, if there's any. life out there, it will be nearly. identical, probably worse, you know, cuz.

we're pretty good.". And like, we'll be able to talk. They. might speak like some form of Spanish or. something, but we'll you know, I'm being. obtuse about it, but it's like there is. an inherent human like bias towards we'd. know what they are. We we could sort of. see what they are and we we'd get it. What if What if you can't? What if you. lack the capacity cuz you're so low on. the totem pole to even see them for what. they are and that they don't even. register as What if you're lower than a. worm? So, it's just it's an interesting. way to look at the world. It's. depressing in a way.

>> It is I had Daniel Whiteson here who was. who was a physi- He's a physicist at. CERN. >> Oh, man. >> and we were Jesus. Yeah. It's like. heavy prep week. So, he's [snorts] We. were talking about, you know, what would. aliens look like. It's kind of his. specialty. He said, "What if the aliens get here and they. don't even do math anymore?" I'm like, "What?" [laughter]. He's like, "Maybe they don't even have. math. Maybe they never discovered math. Maybe they don't need it.". >> Yeah. >> It's cuz we look at everything through. this lens. But it the odds are probably not. It's. probably nothing like us.

>> Yeah. I I am fascinated with like the um. What is it? The pale blue dot, the Carl. Sagan? It's like, I find myself, and this is. probably what drew me to philosophy in. the first place, I I have always been so. deeply fascinated by It's so. like the unknown is sort of the catch. all, but it's like. I I I think about this a lot. Right now, forget like the limitations of like time.

and space time and our ability Forget. Just think about this purely. simplistically. Independent of whether or not we'll ever. be able to verify that there is or is. not other metropolises on alien planets. off in the universe somewhere. It doesn't matter if you can verify it. or not. It doesn't matter if it exist if. it truly exists or not. But let let's. assume for a second that it does in some. capacity. Maybe we wouldn't be able to. to see it for ourselves, but it let's. pretend it exists somehow some way out.

there, right? Right this second, again, putting aside. the limitations of time and all that. Right now, like whatever's out there is living. their lives in their in their spaces. doing their things. There's uh there's a word that I wish I. had right now that I actually. experienced a lot when I was in Peru. I. would like be wandering the streets of. Peru. This is when I was actually less. fucked up from substance. So I was more. sober like having these sober walks and. I would look in the window at night cuz. the windows for like the family rooms.

were usually right at the front of the. house and you could like see people. having dinner. And I would look in these homes. It's. sort of creepy of me. Um but you'd see. these people that are like laughing and. like having their their dinner or. they're arguing or whatever it is. And. like it's so foreign, but it's right. there. And there's a word for the sudden. realization that other people. have just as full lives as you do that. you don't ever see or have access to. Like they're everywhere. Like just cuz. you don't know Martha who lives in. Kansas right now, it doesn't doesn't.

change that she has a full life that. matters as much to her as your life. matters to you. And so I think about. that and apply it to the distant like. alien species. >> Okay. >> And it's like that is so intense to. think that there could be. other species, other like aliens that. are just simply living in whatever. capacity they do right now. And it's. like both infuriating and just. infinitely intriguing that we probably. won't ever know, us, our our crew.

>> We won't ever know. >> No. At least not the way we believe we. will know. And so I find that to be really. interesting and I I am so drawn to the. like there's the uh the other um. thought experiment that sort of touches. on this which is like. And this is this is a famous one. I. forget the name of it. It's something. like somebody's arrow. And it's like, "Okay, pretend this is to get you to. think about the scope and size of the. universe.". Imagine you have this arrow and you fire. it and it'll travel, you know, infinitely in any direction. I'm sure. you're familiar and and like nothing can. stop it. It'll go. It'll go through the Earth. It'll go.

through black holes. Does nothing can. stop it. So, you shoot this arrow and basically, you know, the professor's like, "You got. to You got to just be simple about it. You got to choose one or the other.". Does the arrow, you know, whatever. direction you fire it, you know, does it. at some point reach a wall where there's. just nothing beyond it cuz that's the. edge of existence, right? Cuz that would. be the one thing that would stop it. Like nothingness, right? Does it reach an end point. where there's literally nothing.

or does it go on forever, which would. you know, that's the infinite universe. theory. And it's like sort of a simple. thing to think about it at first. And, you know, I'm like, "Okay, it. probably goes on infinitely, I I guess, you know." Or But then it's like, "I. don't know." And he's like, "Okay, well, how many people think that it hits some. sort of, you know, wall, so to speak?". And it doesn't matter what direction. Doesn't matter. It could be billions of. light-years away, but it hits some wall, right? He's like, "Okay, there's a problem with that because. as humans, going back to the whole. contrast and understanding things, he. goes, "If you If it hits this wall, so.

to speak, you're implying that there's nothingness. beyond it." Cuz it's not really a wall. It's like it's the end of existence. Well, imagine that there's literally a. wall there, whether you see it or not. As a human, based on our lived experience, we have. to naturally ask the question, "What is. on the other side of the wall?" And. you're like, "Okay, well, don't worry. It's It's nothingness. Problem solved.". Well, then the question, "Define. nothingness. What is it?". Well, it's it's a void. No, that's. something. Can't be that. Okay, it's. blackness. No, can't be that. It's.

clear. It. Any example we give doesn't work because. we only understand things that exist. We. don't understand that the only the only. thing we know that didn't exist that we. sort of know is our pre-existence. I I know I didn't exist before I before. I existed, but I don't I don't have any. feelings with it. >> No. >> But it's the closest thing to. nothingness that I I have. And so we. can't conceptualize of there not being. something on the other side of that. wall. We can't do it. As humans, we. can't do it. And so the the the natural.

next step is to say, "Okay, well, you know, if I can't do that, then it. must mean that it's the the alter the. alternate, which is the arrow just. continues. The universe is infinite.". But then that implies that in any in. order for the universe to be infinite, it means everything in the universe has. to be duplicated and iterated upon an. infinite number of times, which is like. string theory, I think. And it's like. that means there's an infinite number of. you and I having this conversation, but. like, you know, this cord is pink. Like. And that's a different Earth. Everything. else is the same. And it's like it it. opens up all these lines of like, "Wait.

a minute. Like, we don't really. understand stuff. We don't really get. what's out there at all." But it's like. so rudimentary, but it feels like we. should know, and we don't. And I I love. that, and it frustrates me, and I'm. constantly drawn to it. >> I love that, too. And you know, ask a. physicist or ask ask someone who's. religious what happened before the Big. Bang, and you get weird answers, man. Like it just it just happened. And what? >> Well, it doesn't work like that. >> Um when I hear your stories, I see like. Robert Stack in a trench coat. I see Art. Bell in the middle of the night.

>> [laughter]. >> Um. Paul Harvey. >> Yeah, legends. >> Always saved it to the to the other side. of the break for for the rest of the. story. Who are your. artistic inspirations? And don't say Evan Allen. >> [laughter]. >> My sister, Evan Allen. Uh. I You know what's funny is I always I. always want to reference him, and I. always forget his name, and that. suggests that I don't know him that it. He's a Dateline host. Gray-haired guy, and I'm I can't believe.

I always I should always have his name. on hand, but he anytime I. I I find myself watching Datelines with. this guy I I need to look him up. >> His comments are exploding right now. >> [laughter]. >> The. Anyways, there's a Dateline host. like real wrinkled face, gray hair guy. He's just a. brilliant storyteller. Like truly just. brilliant. Like you listen to him and. you're like, oh my Any anything you talk. about I'm drawn in. I obviously forget. his name. That's great. Uh what's so. great about him?

There is a calming feature to his voice. >> Yeah, you do that. >> I find that when I listen to him, it not. that other people have grating voices. I. think a lot of people have voices are. fine for storytelling, but there's. something about his that's It doesn't. even lull you into like a stupor. It's. more like I just like listening to him. And he's just really, really good at. like understanding the beats and like. you really like he unlike the other.

hosts who are great. Dateline obviously. has great hosts. He really leans in when it's time to. deliver a beat. And I think that one of. the things that I tell people if I'm. talking to a pure like. regular person that's like, what How do. you tell a good story, right? I probably. wouldn't get into like the. technicalities around what POV I use or. like how to structure it. It would be. like. a really good story often times comes. down to like how committed the. storyteller is to delivering that story. >> That's right.

>> You know, it's like you can have sort of. bad material, but if you're really. committed to the bit and you deliver it. with with pizzazz and charisma, you can. you can you can really command an. audience. And I find that anonymous gray. haired amazing host from. from Dateline who now I'm it's killing. me. I don't know his name. Uh was so. good at is so good at it. Um. But I mean this is one that is you know, I I was around incredible speakers, Uh.

namely my father. Uh. he, you know, we don't have the the. greatest relationship. I'll be candid. Um but he, growing up, was like a profoundly talented public. speaker. Uh not that he did a lot of it, but, you. know, it. at at Thanksgiving, who's going to say. grace? You know, my dad. Or like, if. there was a eulogy, you know, he was the. guy that was tapped to do it or like. >> of that gift. >> He's an incredible speaker, and I find. myself, not even intentionally, but I I.

know I sound like my dad. Like the way. he spoke, there was a. he would look at you and like say things. with like so much confidence that what. he is saying is he's like imparting it. on you, and you better pay attention. But like it worked just there's a way he. tells stories, the way he speaks that's. just really, really powerful. And as a. kid, I was like so impressed by it that. it isn't that when I began telling. stories that I like looked up to him, it's that I naturally modeled the way I. spoke around somebody that I thought was.

really good at it. Um so I would say my father is someone. that I sort of naturally have probably. sort of mimicked in a way. >> My dad was a great storyteller. >> Yeah, that's cool. And it's just like. you're around it, and then I I I can't. believe I'm. We have to look at I'm sure someone will. put it in the comments. >> the comments. [laughter]. >> He's great, though. >> Um when you were telling the story about. Sergio, there was that one beat where. you're like I you had to backtrack. Yeah. So when you're doing live, I'm assuming you're telling the same.

stories on a tour. Do you watch the audience's to like I'm. a former stand-up, so like you're doing. material and you you're like, all right, that didn't play. Next story. Do you. make adjustments like other. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, in fact, I I had done a single live. uh event in in Texas in in 2023 to like. test the waters. It was great, but like. it actually doesn't give you a whole lot. of data. It's like one time. Um but what. I found is when we did the tour in 2014, we did 15 stops across the East Coast,

but we sort of hit a range of locations. There was like DC, Chicago, Detroit, Boston, uh Philly, New. York, but we also were like in North. Carolina. And I And I say that because North. Carolina, you know, I lived in Virginia Beach. right on the border of North Carolina. They're like such nice people. And. it was towards the end of the tour we. went to North Carolina. And I had I had really dialed in my. material. I was like very confident in. just like what I was doing each night.

And I remember being like, this is not. going well. The The two nights in in. North Carolina. >> I'm glad you're telling this cuz I was. going to ask you to tell me when it. didn't go well. Dude. >> I was up there and there's a couple of. like beats in a few of the stories. I. had four stories that I would tell. Um. I knew the points that were going to. like have a a big impact. And it was. just like a subdued audience. Like. just very sub And it was really hard. >> Oh, was it hard? If it doesn't hit, you're like, "Uh-oh.".

>> Oh, man, was it hard. It was so hard. And. I came to realize on the second night we. were in North Carolina, and I don't even. know how I came to this, but it suddenly. made sense. The audience was being polite. >> Oh, no. >> The audience was being like. unbelievable. Because that that group of. people that I thought hated Not hated. it, but weren't interested. We're like. There was so many people after the show. that stuck around to talk with me. >> Like Like more than anywhere else. How does that work? If You know what I. mean? And conversely, I had when we were.

in Washington DC, there was a really. rowdy crowd. And then not in a good way. Not like in a we like No, like not in. like a we love these stories way. Like. it was like drunken BS. Which is sort of funny cuz it's like. this is so not the place for it. I'm. like telling these intense like stories. that require focus, you know? >> going. >> Yeah. [laughter]. And uh. the hard part was. if I'm taken out of the story by. someone, it takes everyone out of the.

story. >> And I had to on two different occasions. not kick anybody out cuz I didn't do I. allowed security to do that. But I actually had to specifically tell. people in the theater to stop what. they're doing. >> Ugh. >> Really for the benefit of the whole. crew. And it's really hard to get back. into flow when you do that cuz you sort. of feel like did I overreact? I'm sort. of up here by myself, you know, they. paid to be here. Um that was hard, but then conversely. like there have been audiences that were.

like like Chicago was one that was. really good and that was actually the. the most intimidating of all of them cuz. it was it was the biggest theater of the. whole one. There was like I think 2,900. people there. >> Wow. >> I mean it's a sellout? >> No, a sellout would have been 3,100. >> Still. >> The way they did it is like so the. entire lower level was sold out. And. then the upper level it was like. to be honest it pretty much looks sold. out. It wasn't, but it was like you. wouldn't look at it and say no one's. here. You'd be like wow, this is full. Um maybe the lighting or something, but.

it it from my perspective when I was out. there it was like holy [snorts] shit, this is this is the there's a lot of. people in here. You know, the other. venues we were doing were sort of a. little bit more narrow and like maybe. 1,300 people, 1,500 people, which is a. lot. But Chicago Theater was like. this huge wide theater and the ground. floor is like 2,000 people alone and. it's just like a sea of people and the. lighting is such there's not a good way. to like black out the crowd. And so. you're really kind of seeing the whole.

crowd the whole time. But the crowd was. so good. Like they were like so into it. and I it's funny I went on stage for. Chicago and I. I had had told before I went on stage. like by the people that worked there. They're like, "Hey, you know, you're. welcome to have a drink out there, like, water or whatever, uh but just keep in mind, you know, this. is a really old stage. Be really careful. you don't spill anything. It's very hard. to clean this." I'm like, "No problem.". And so, I bring my mug of scalding hot. tea with honey in it out there, and I'm.

like, nervously walking on stage, and I. immediately kicked over my mug of tea, and it spills all over the the the. stage. And I'm looking over at the side, and and everyone's like, "God damn it.". And like, they can't come out and clean. it cuz it's just started, and so. >> Always start the show with a sticky. [laughter]. >> And so, I like knelt down, and I sort of. made a joke out of it, and I began. sopping it up cuz I had a sleeping bag. that was a set prop. And I just I began. the show like, as if I wasn't really. doing this. I was like, cleaning tea,

and so, guys, like, I'm here tonight, and then people thought it was funny. And they were like, laughing at it, and. so, it like softened the crowd a little. bit, and it was it was a great show, but. man, yeah. I I would say that in terms. of the I've done, I guess, a total of. 16, like, live shows where like, okay, there's a legitimate audience that I'm. telling a story to, and and I would say. that. the set list was basically the same, but. the way it was delivered was 100%. dictated on how's the crowd reacting? How good of a job did I just do on that. story? And like, if I did a crappy job,

I really got to change the way I do this. one and really ramp it up and nail the. beats. Um but like, that's sort of what makes. storytelling fun is like, you really you. can alter the way it comes off, depending on how you deliver it. So, it's like, how you deliver it is key, and so, being the advice I give people. if you want to be a really great. storyteller is like, commit to the. story. Even if the story sucks, if. you're committed to it, that's what. they'll remember when you tell it. >> I'm going to close out with your book, but before we do that, are you going to. fly in the flannel? >> Fly in the flannel?

>> I like, when you leave here, are you. going to change into civilian clothes? >> I'll [laughter] change into civilian in. yes. >> tell me the first time you're. recognized. >> Oh, man. Uh well, the funny the the the. the thing is is if I'm not in uniform, I. am totally unrecognizable, you know? >> But, in uniform? >> In uniform, it happens, yeah. >> So, what about the first time ever? >> Uh. ironically. >> Mine was at the urinal at a restaurant. >> Oh, really? >> recognized behind me while in a very. vulnerable state. by the toilet [laughter]. attendant. >> Nice. That's pretty good.

>> and I'm like, "I need a minute for. >> Thanks, dude. Nice. Yeah, let's take a. picture. >> He wanted one? >> I I was in uh Doylestown, Pennsylvania, where I was living at the time, and I. was This was like Tik Tok days. This was. like the height of my Tik Tok early. days. And uh people were not really sort. of like going out, but I was like in an. outdoor seating area. I had a mask on, the whole thing. >> right. >> Yeah, COVID, and I uh we were at this. like little restaurant in downtown. Doylestown, and and. not an ounce of me or or my the my.

radar, in no way am I thinking people. are going to know who I am. Like, it's. it never has crossed my mind. And I'm. sitting at the edge of like the the. seating area that's outside up against. the fence. There's a sidewalk that's. pretty well trafficked. And I'm sitting. there talking to my wife, my kids are. there, and some dude stopped, and he's. looking at me, and I'm like, "What is. this guy doing? That dude is really in. my space here. This is like. uncomfortable.". And he's like, "Mr. Ballen?". And at first I was like, "What?" And I. was like, "Oh my god." I was like, "You. follow my account?" And he's like,

"Dude." He like held it up. I was like, "Whoa.". And that yeah, that was the first time, but it was like, "Oh, that's right. Like, there are real people attached to. these numbers of views and all that. stuff." Um now it's like I don't think. it happens a ton, but when I'm like in. uniform, I would say it's it's. relatively common, but not like not a. lot. It's like people It's like niche, you know? Like, "Oh, >> It is. >> Yo, Mr. Ballen." You know? And then I I. was in the air airport waiting to. at the casino. Yeah, the airport. The hotel hotel. And I'm waiting to to.

um get picked up to come over here, and. someone walked in. I had my head down in. in regalia, you know? And someone was like, "Dude, that looks. like Mr. Ballen." And I heard it, and I. turned around and looked at him, and. he's like, "Wait a minute.". And I was like, "Yeah, yeah, it's me.". And he said, "Oh, we're huge fans." But. it's it's rare. It does happen, though. It's fun. >> Um, what makes your channel so good is. the way you tell the story, and it's. theater of the mind. But you do graphic novels. By the way, shout out to Venditti and Mutti for. amazing art. >> Oh, yeah. Rob Venditti and Andrea Mutti, awesome team. And Evan Allen, my sister,

chief creative at Ballen, and huge. influence on these books. >> So, what. what does having a drawing of the story. ruin, and what does it unlock? >> Mm. Yeah, well, so the reason we went with. So, what does it unlock? I think the. reason we went with graphic novel versus. like trying to do some, you know, just. sort of text-only book. is, you know, I started as a visual. thing. Like, it was Tik Tok, and then it. was YouTube. And even though it's always.

been straight to camera green screen and. like some pictures, it's not like a huge. production. Um, it's always been you're sort of. looking at someone who's telling you a. story, and then you're also being given. glimpses of the story through imagery. It's simple, but it's visual. And as much as it's theater of the mind, and it definitely is, it's just there's. always been a visual component to it. And when we were thinking about how can. we make a book feel feel like Mr. Ballen, we came up with graphic novel. But at.

first, when we sort of tested it out a. little bit, we like put out some comics, like little clip glimp- clips of it like. in our Discord and and Reddit. People weren't like, "This is bad." They. were like, "It's great." Like, "Oh, it's. great." Yeah, it's all right. But then I was like, "You know what? One. of the things that we can do with a. graphic novel that's visual as well, that's like that would make it even more. Mr. Ballen-y. is. they're used to me in my flannel and. backwards hat, like literally in in. their purview, in their view, telling. the story. And we were like, why don't.

we add a little avatar of Mr. Ballen's. face in flannel with the backwards hat. in the book? Just like periodically. remind them that like your narrator is. here. Like the text is meant to be my. voice, but like the little bubble with. different caricature animations, it's. designed to like remind them that like. this is the visual representation of of. like where it all began. And I think it translates well. I think. people get the vibe. Much more positive. remarks as soon as we added a little. avatar. >> A New York Times best seller list is a.

>> Yeah, no, it was very very successful. Um but uh in terms of what it's what. what you lose, and I think that comes to. the thing I was just saying, which is. like there's there's power in the. storyteller themselves. You are the storyteller. If you're. reading a book, you're you're internally. narrating it. And and I hope I come. through in your internal narration, but. you lose. like the person controlling the story, which is the Bard, the person telling. the story. So, I think you do lose that, even if there's a little avatar in. there. >> The new book is The Terror Within. The.

marketing copy is. what are you capable of? So, we heard a lot of dark side to Mr. Ballen today. So, what are you capable. of when no one's looking? >> Yeah, well, I mean, that's that's the. that's the primer. >> If there's no ramifications, what are. you what what are you capable of? >> I well, you know, I've I've sort of seen. it in my own life, but I I think that. like this book it it it it sort of. begins to examine stories about people. that demonstrate their capable of a. whole lot of stuff that's not so good. Uh and I I there's there's some other.

statistic that is not included in this. book, but it's it's definitely one I've. read that's stuck with me. It's like. there are some ungodly number of. uncaught serial killers that are just. walking amongst like a a large number of. them. And they're just they're your barber, they're your grocer, they're your. DoorDash guy, you know, whatever. And I. that's horrifying, but like of course. that's how it works, you know? And it's. like so this question of like the terror. within or this premise is like it's not.

just a thought. Like there really are. people out there right now that you. might think you know, but actually you. don't. There's something inside of them. that's pretty dark. >> Is there anything you wanted to touch on. before we say goodbye? >> No. Uh other than I really appreciate. the conversation and it was cool to get. into some stuff that I've never talked. about in particular like the uh the. military stuff. That was that was heavy, but I feel like you were a good person. to share that with. So thank you. >> Thanks, John. Um I thanked you at the. beginning of the show for helping my. channel.

And tonight you have reinvigorated me. for this medium. Honestly. >> Hell yeah. That's awesome, dude. Awesome. >> Thanks, Mr. Ballan. >> Thank you, man. >> That was Mr. Ballan, John Allen. John's. one of the nicest guys I've ever met in. this business and [music] instantly. became one of my favorite people. Now. there's not much to break down here, but. a couple of things. The Argentine cop. story is real, [music] so we could start. there. His name was Corporal Luis Sergio. Pucheta and the case files out of La. Pampa from March 2006 [music]. read almost exactly the way John tells. it. The disassembled gun on the roadside.

is in there. He turned up 18 hours later. bone dry after a night of rain. People. have spent [music] 20 years trying to. break that story and got nowhere. It's a. great case. Now Ephraim, the buddy who. left the SEAL teams to fight ISIS, that's real and the rescue's on video. His charity posted on their own site. One detail drifted. The footage shows. the team leader carrying the girl. [music] while Ephraim laid down covering. fire, but he took a bullet while doing. it. The man is exactly who John says he. is and I am going to support [music]. that charity. The Ted Bundy story, well John flagged.

it himself before I could. There's no. interview where Bundy says any of that. The story lives in the university. folklore archive filled [music] with. campfire legends. It's a campfire story. about a campfire killer because of. course it is. The military stories, [music]. the flattering version of John's record. is out there, but he spent an hour of. our conversation replacing it with an. uglier one on camera. >> [music]. >> That took bravery. John's book is The. Terror Within, out September 29th. Four. of the stories in it have never been. told anywhere else. And everything I. mentioned is linked below. I covered.

those nine dead Russian hikers that. started John's second [music] life. It's. the Dyatlov Pass episode. And I break. down how I think it happened. It's. pretty interesting. And if you like the. Pascagoula case, my Pascagoula episode. is another abduction [music] story that. the police believed. Until next time, be. safe, be kind, and know that you are. appreciated. >> [bell].

[music]. [music]. [music]. [music]. [music].

[singing]. [music]. >> I feel the flat cat and I got stuck. inside Mel's home [music] with the. MKUltra. I feel I'm only two away. Did Stanley [music] Kubrick fake the. moon landing alone on a film set? And. were the shadow people.

>> [music]. >> The Roswell aliens just fought the. smiling man, I'm told. [music]. And his name was cold. And I can't [singing] believe. I'm dancing [music] with the big cheese. Petrova showed Thursday nights with they. changed you and the world falls on. repeat all through the night. All I ever wanted was [music] to just. hear the truth. So the world falls on. repeat all through the night.

>> [music]. [music]. >> The Mothman [music] sightings and the. solar storm still come to a got the the. secret city underground. Mysterious number stations, [music].

planets are supposed to project Stargate. and what the dark watchers found. >> [music]. >> The simulation, don't you worry though. The black knights had a lot of tools. to miss. Oh, I can't believe [music]. I'm dancing with the big cheese. Petrova showed Thursday nights with they. changed you and the world falls on. repeat [music] all through the night.

All I ever wanted was to just hear. [music] the truth. So the world falls on. repeat all through the night. Petrova showed Thursday nights [music]. with they changed you and the world. falls on repeat all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the. truth. So the world falls [music] on. repeat all through the night.

>> Gurdy loves to [music] dance. Gurdy loves to dance. Gurdy loves to dance. Yeah, Gurdy loves to dance. on the dance [music] floor. because she is a camel. and camels love to dance. >> [music]. >> when the feeling. is right. always. in time. Gurdy. loves to dance. Gurdy loves to. >> [music].

[music]. [bell].