The Basement: John B. Alexander | Green Beret, Spoon Bender, UFO Investigator

Today, we're sitting down with Colonel. John Alexander. He commanded Green. Berets in Vietnam, ran advanced weapons. concepts at Los Alamos, and pioneered. the military's non-lethal weapons. program. He also threw spoon-bending. parties for Army generals, sponsored a. scientist whose lab levitated scrap. metal, and was the first investigator to. spend a night on Skinwalker Ranch. And. none of it was a hobby. It was work. >> And that even Skinwalker Ranch, you couldn't get me to spend a lunch. there. That place has demons that make. the crap cat look cuddly.

>> Today, we're. >> Secret cat. >> Today, we're covering the Army's psychic. warfare years, the voodoo fire ceremony. he filmed in West Africa, and why a man. with a file full of things that can't. happen isn't worried about dying. And at. one point, he mentions that he could. beat a polygraph, but he couldn't fool. his own white blood cells. That one's. going to bug me for a while. [music]. >> Yeah, they can never polygraph me. No. pulse points, no fingers, no sweat. glands. I'm untestable, baby. >> You confessed to things nobody asked. about. >> Yeah, allegedly.

>> Once we wrap up, I'll pop back in and. break down our conversation. Let's go. down to the basement. >> [music]. >> Colonel John Alexander, welcome to the. basement. >> Great to be here, I think. >> Uh no, it was good. >> I didn't do it. I wasn't [laughter]. there. I don't know what anything about. it. >> We're going to have fun. Um. I want to start somewhere no one does. You're in a village in West Africa in. the middle of a voodoo ceremony, cameras. are rolling, and the shaman what takes a.

fire to his face? What happened? >> Oh, no, it's much more than that. This. was we were attending a voodoo ceremony. And in this particular case, the shaman himself came out. Now, he. picks up a flaming torch, he puts it in. his mouth, and you know, pauses. Now, what was really interesting was when it. was my camera, by the way, that was. rolling. And at distance, like we're. sitting right now, this is not a long. ways away. And yes, it's hot. You know.

what I mean? There's definitely heat. Got long chin whiskers that don't singe. What? Now, this was also when on and they. brought out two young boys. Uh probably about 10 or so. Um. and the shaman goes. this and passing the power. And say, "Well, they can't you know, they haven't. got the full range yet." But they would. stand in the fire, sit in the fire, eat. the fire. Um yeah, it defies everything.

you know about thermodynamics. I also they say, "Well, they have some. magical, you know, asbestos substance or. something like. You got to understand, these are people. who look up to dirt and poverty. >> Right. >> Yeah, that they have some exotic. materials or something is. They they did have a long history as to. how that came about, but it Yeah, just. defies the rules. There's no doubt about. that. >> What was the ceremony for? They're.

lighting fire. >> Us. No, that this was the We're we're with. the small group and they were doing it. for us, but this is something they do. all the time. >> [sighs]. >> Only the shaman can do that? Or I What I'm getting at is can we all. learn that power? >> that is the question. That's hard to. say. Uh there's obviously a uh period of. training and introduction. Like I said, with the boys he was passing the power. and so they've only got so much. We saw.

a number of them. do this. Um the backstory is that uh this goes. back to the days of slavery. And these were people that we were in. Benin uh at the time or. We were in both Togo and Benin, but in. that area in West Africa. And you know, most of the slaves were. actually captured by Africans in that. way. And one of the things that had happened. is that they had been um.

uh captured. Most of the people were put. in one of these corrals, which was then. set on fire and burned alive. Um after that, there were a few. survivors who had been outside and said. they made a deal with the fire gods. that if. you know, they would honor them in. return for protection. Now, we're in an. area where if you believe, the physical. evidence we saw is.

they definitely could do these things. Uh might mention that um. I I had taken this to a local uh. magician. uh and guys who deal with fire and say, "Okay, how do you do this?". And the answer was, "You don't." He had. showed me the tricks of people. uh how they. you know, do the. fire things on stage and that. And part. of it, frankly, is just how much pain.

can you stand? >> Yeah. >> How do you How far do you go before it. kicks in? >> But the beard doesn't singe. That. doesn't. It. >> Well, that's what I say, the laws of. thermodynamics should be if you put. something on their skin, you'll burn. >> Right. >> Yeah. It didn't happen. >> Were you there on official official. capacity or just curiosity? >> No, no, no. This was personal and you. know, after I had retired the second. time. But I want to point out one thing, misconception about voodoo itself.

Um. voodoo, in my view, is not just a. religion. It is an entire way of life. I mean, this is you know, people. incorporate this. Uh. met the guy there who his job. literally was to dream. And he was a shaman he had been trained. and he would dream at night and come out. and tell the village, you know, here's. [snorts] you know, what's going to. happen here's what you should do. Uh a. long training process that went into.

that. He did say he had adopted one. acolyte. Don't know who he is and the. villagers didn't know but was training. them to to succeed him. But if you travel. again throughout uh southern. uh. Benin and and Togo. and probably in the Ghana every place. you go you see the trees and there's a. white uh. thing on it or a white flag that means.

the doctor is in. And we were there actually we happened. to hit it. on the Voodoo uh New Year's Day when we. had massive numbers of uh. uh. Voodoo folks in. And um. yeah, some of the things we saw I guess. one of the ones that I don't know if. you've seen this or not. Um again. [clears throat] we arrived at a Voodoo. ceremony that particular day it was out.

of a small village and there were. several people in trance with this one. woman who's just totally out of it and. they take gunpowder and put it in her. hand and it boof those blows up and. totally unfazed. And. how you do that without burning? But definitely happening. >> Did you go there trying to debunk it or. understand it? >> Well, we tried essentially I kept track.

of the guy that was in there. We. remember when Ebola broke out and. interestingly those areas did not have a. single case of Ebola although it was. around them. And his quote was, "Voodoo. will protect us.". Now, that's taking a big leap of faith, [laughter] if you will. But, again, the. evidence was it didn't happen. So, you. don't know, did it just not hit that. particular area? And of course, we have. a new Ebola outbreak now that's.

occurring. >> Did that that group, that tribe, have. long life expectancies? >> I don't know. >> I think that's just I'm curious about. that, Steve. Um. All right, we have to do a little bit of. the biography. You gave your first UFO talk in 1947. >> Right. >> Uh on the school radio in fifth grade. That was the summer flying saucer was. coined. >> Right. >> Did you give your talk before. before Kenneth Arnold went public?

>> No, no, no. What had happened is there. were a few newspaper articles. This is. in LaCrosse, Wisconsin, small town. And it just caught my attention as it. was just. becoming popular at the time. And I went. to a very unique grade school. We were. part of what's now the University of. Wisconsin system. Then was a teachers'. college, and they needed guinea pigs, so. that was us. And they we had access to the facilities. of the college, and they they would.

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>> So, you've been on the case for 79. years. Yeah. Close. More than that. >> Well, you know, since since then, yes, I. was 10 at the time. >> Yeah. Well, speaking of '47, that's Roswell's. year. Do you have a. I think you have you have some We're. going to get some controversial opinions. today from you, which is fun. >> Yep. >> What so, what about Roswell? Was that.

I never heard you say aliens really in. any of your talks. >> Uh what's the question? >> With Roswell, did it Was that a crash. retrieval? >> Um. >> Or is that a weather balloon? >> Uh no. I think the answer to both is probably. no. Uh but. and this I can argue Roswell either way. One of the problems in setting you get. in however deep you go, the data never all fit.

into neat. pockets. Um but I can make a strong case that A, that an event occurred. I don't think. there's any doubt. Um remember, Roswell did not really become a thing. until much, much later. >> Stanton Friedman's book maybe in 1980. >> Well, Stanton Friedman and and those. guys. So, for decades, you know, so you. it wasn't like it was in the newspaper.

except in, you know, the Roswell. newspaper of of course and and that. Um don't think there's any doubt. that an event occurred. I don't think. there's any doubt that the government. came in pretty heavy-handed. Um. but what people forget now is the time. frame. I mean, we're talking beginning. of the Cold War. Um we had just come out of and I.

actually remember part of World War II. Not as a participant, but you know, uh remember some of the things going on. So, you have to remember the public. tenor of the time and this would have. scared the crap out of everybody, you. know. And it it also the the. straight story and with a lot of. documentation to it was, remember. what's going on at the time. At that time, the US is the only.

uh atomic. as opposed to nuclear power in in the. world. And we knew the Soviets were working on. it. So, the big question was. >> when? >> Yeah. If they pop, you know, that. changes the the dynamics quite a bit. And so, that they had very high altitude. sensor systems. Now, they they later. went to seismic systems which were. you know, better on company.

But um. Uh yeah, but they would have had the and. it would have been super super sensitive. and very few people and I do know. >> [clears throat]. >> I think it was Bill Byrne one of the TV. programs that they had. He came in and. they laid out. some some material. and there were people, you know, just. few Marcel and others and there was. another sergeant who was there and they. brought them in and said, "Do you see.

the same material here?" What was laid. out on thin films and all that. And the answer is yes. And they pointed to them. And the point. was that did exist at the time and had. most of the properties. but aluminum memory and flame retardant. and all of that. Um. Yeah, later told about, you know, you. talk about the long train of debris. And.

what I was told by. very knowledgeable sources was that yes, that what he had that these things were. cut to a specific angle looking for. certain frequencies. Again, we're. looking for. has a nuclear detonation occurred. And so, you know, that that kind of. material would have been there. I can I talked to Bruce Maccabee, you. probably know about this at the time and. he goes, "Well,

if that's true, wouldn't they have found. a screw or something?". >> Yeah. >> That's what was said. Uh so, don't know, but again, it um. uh the case. you know, just dwindled immediately. It. did not hit the public. Other cases that. came along, flights over Washington and. all that, Well, many more. UFO sightings came along. Uh but Roswell is. a conundrum to me. >> Is it? >> Yeah.

>> I think Marcel said, cuz he took the. material home overnight. Didn't he say. that there was writing on some of that. stuff? >> He. did bring it home and I thought Jesse. Jr. also was really good guy. Uh. and I heard him talk several times. He only said what he knew. He was one of. these few people that are not. extrapolating into bigger and he said, "My experience is 15 minutes.". Yeah. They brought home. Here's what we saw.

Then they took it off. Um. Yeah, there were others who have, you. know, different stories on it. And of. course you get into the bodies and all. of that and. hard to say. >> We'll get into some more of that later. Um but I can't help myself. When you. were digging around with Clearance, did. you look into Roswell? >> Mm, it was a wrong. Well, the short answer would be no, cuz. there wasn't much to quote look into. I.

mean, very aware of it, aware of all of. the material. I never ran across. anything. in any of the files that referenced it. or anything like that. >> Was '47 the year that the Air Force was. spun out of the Army? >> Yes. >> Yes, okay. That's convenient. >> Well, that's gets critical. As a matter. of fact, when you get into the like the. Twining memo and that, which is key. Um. In fact, the memo was to the Army Air.

Force, cuz these things were happening. You may want to know about MJ-12 and. that. These are literally being formed. at that time. >> Yeah, I mean, I have a. my notes here on things to go through in. an order, but it's not going to work. My. notes are not going to work cuz I have. cuz I you bring now you brought up. MJ-12. I can't help. get your thoughts on that, and what. about Richard Doty from from OSI? I'm wondering how you feel about him.

Could I. >> We have met um probably well, when we. met, he was with the Mexico State. Police. He told us a story that could. not possibly be true. >> Okay. >> In fairness, they were guessing who I was. I I was. there with um. uh Scott and help uh put off, and they were guessing who I was and. guessed wrong, and thought I was from DIA, and I was.

actually not retired at Los Alamos, and he told me this very fanciful story. about you know, a building I had been in. that week. I'm saying, "No, that's. not the way that it's built." Um and. also, a lot of the stories that have. come up, again, we're now talking early '90s. It's critical here at the timing because. you. Cold War had, you know, Soviet Union has.

just fell. And with that, at LANL and a lot of. other places, of course, we went into. the peace dividend probably way too. early, but the issue was that uh a lot. of places that were quote behind the. fence no longer, you know, they had guards at the gate. The gate fences were still up, but uh. people would come and go and whatnot. So, um. No, I've just uh. I guess I I just in the last week saw a.

preposterous thing, you know, I come from SF background, and. the claim was that uh. Delta. uh Force were specifically trained and. equipped uh in that and um. Sorry, I'm still associated with that. field and we go into it. Um Yeah, not. not happening. >> So, MJ-12, the documents I go back and. forth also because I don't like the Bill.

Moore Jamie Shandera part of that story, how they found them in the mail, they. found them in the archives. But, the documents are still compelling. So, where do you stand on MJ-12? >> A, it was real. >> Okay. >> That list is probably real. And probably had absolutely nothing to. do with UFOs. >> Wow. So, what would be the purpose of that? Just counterintelligence? >> It was something called Cog. Continuity of government.

>> Oh, of course. >> Which was super That is one of the few. things that I had asked Phil of mine So, what about? And he says, "We're not. discussing that." So, there were times. when I And this is now in the '80s. But, the creation of continuity of. government Now, this became public. knowledge, you know, when Greenbrier. they found out the Greenbrier place had. been. had a big underground facility. >> Yeah, the the hotel.

>> It was where you would whisk the. government to. in case of an And it was to prevent. nuclear decapitation. And continuity of Continuity was a. continuation of the government would. exist didn't have that. >> If If people don't know, there's like a. mini con congressional hall in there. >> Well, it it's As I understand, there may. be pieces of this still classified as. whatnot because we are still concerned. about what happens to the government and.

under catastrophic circumstances. >> It should always be a concern. >> Yeah. But, um. if you look at that list, remember what. Stanton talked about this, too. And he. was saying like Menzel, for instance, who was a very anti-UFO. guy and that that had to. that he was reading a double life. according to Stanton. Um. >> What he wasn't he? Didn't. >> No. >> No, I thought he had clearance. He was.

an asset. >> Uh yeah, but if you look at it from a. position of something for cog, that list. of people makes total sense. And you. don't have to do backflips on any of. them. >> No. >> I mean, you have nuclear the people who. understood nuclear weapons and that that. been. this gets terribly complex as to what. could be done, the amount of damage that. was done, blast radiation radio. radiation continuances, etc. Um.

Yeah, this that group is the one exactly. and and Truman. is the one who puts in place and. supposedly not taking notes and and. that, but. that explanation fits without any. >> It does. >> damn thing. >> It does. So, where. Where So, James Forrestal, what about. that conspiracy? Did he. >> Which one? I mean, >> Is that. >> Some things he was drugged or something.

and you know, it did follow his death and that, but um. uh I. I have a hard time making a leap. therefore, you know, some nefarious. group assassinated him or something. >> Well, that's why I like your um. I that really that's your your whole. thesis is you've got all these great. some would say wild claims, but you're. also a skeptic, I think. >> Well,

you know, my current thinking is a little. different than it was and uh. >> How so? >> Well, that's primarily because some of. the people who come forward who are. personal friends and who are very highly. and located, well-placed, etc. And then when you get into the quote the. legacy program per se, um. that varies considerably from my. first-hand experience.

>> Yeah, I mean. >> And uh it's so I just end up with. can't really tell. Yeah, the I think the. Well, you had Jeremy, for instance, come. forward. I mean, that's their whole. thing is in but the question, I think, is. are you tracking down what are UFOs or. UAPs or whatever or is your whole thing. on I want to crack the government? >> Yeah, I mean, what does George think.

about it? I think he cares more about. government transparency than Yeah. >> Well, I was going to get into this, but in my. view, uh the. I think the entire approach is wrong. now. And yes, the government does have data, but I don't think this fits very well. with governments per se. I think that uh a better model of how to. approach would be considered the human.

genome. where you had multiple countries. The major thing is sharing data. I would also compare it to cancer. because it's ubiquitous. It is, you know, many different forms. Morphs, it changes, and all that. The. government has a role to play in this, but it is not the role that you have you. know, many people different government.

And the problem that I see at the. moment, what the government brings to. the table, of course, at the moment are. really good sensor systems. And I can make a strong case for why. some of that should be classified cuz. you don't want to tell people what are. your operating parameters, what you can. see, what you can't see, and measure, etc. Uh so, that I can say on on the top end, you won't have it. Having said that,

this is a global phenomena. And in my view, the government you know, can't put it back in. put the genie back in the bottle. It is. happening all over. And now with the you. know, we have. what rings on every door and cell phones. and this and this the data is just. overwhelming. >> I mean, police body cameras, you're. seeing stuff. Yeah. Um. Yeah, some of this was on my list, but. since we're here anyway, and.

Actually, let's yeah, let's stay let's. stay on this for a second. Uh cuz I. you always bring up Slemanski, but I but. no Henry Slemanski? You know. >> Slemanski? >> Yeah. Um. >> You want to go in the martial arts area? >> Well, what I found fascinating about him. was his MOS. >> Uh Japanese hang the Japanese war. criminals. >> He was a hangman. >> Yeah. >> It was that Is that still in the manual. that MOS?

>> No. >> [laughter]. >> Don't. Hope not. >> You've got to again, you've got to look. at the time. Now, when I worked for uh. Slemanski, you got to remember, I was a brand new. E5 at the time. I had gone to Ranger. School and because that was the only way. you were going to get promoted. You're. coming out of uh Korea. So, promotions. just not happening. But if you [snorts]. went to Ranger school, uh you. automatically got promoted to E5. And I went back, and then I went to the.

>> [snorts]. >> Fort Campbell Jump School as an. instructor. 20-year-old black hat yelling and. saying, "Okay, son, you know, son." You. know, these kids are. >> [laughter]. >> a little older than than I am, certainly. And the ground training NCO. was Henry Slemanski. And. um. he was. Well, his big thing he. lived in Japan for a long period of. time, as well as hanging a few a few of.

the criminals, and had become. a major figure kind of he was. commissioner, I think, for the Western. Hemisphere. Was the the title and. and the big thing was that he had. entered he was been training, but. the story was that he had. entered a a major contest. And this was. back in the day still full contact and. all of that. And of course, a foreigner.

being in there was not favorable, and he. ended up, I think, defeating 110 or 111. Japanese art and and really gaining. their respect. at the time. >> What was his system that he trained in? >> I I'd have to look it. >> I was just curious. >> have have it in there, but um. >> Oh, they had to hate him. >> Well, yes and and no. Of course, one of.

the things, like I say, respect is when. he whipped their ass. Um you know, and got some I mean, they. expected him just to be eliminated. almost immediately in the thing, and it. didn't happen. And ended up like I more than 100 about. in a period of 2 days to to get up. there. So, it's. >> 100 fights in 2 days? >> Yeah. Yeah, it was a I believe it was a 2-day.

you know, elimination. approach. >> Wow. Um. Okay, so special forces. I want to know. >> you know, his final job Now, his final. job was. he became a chaplain. >> That's right. I heard you mention that. >> And and hospital hospital chaplain. Kind of a. big shift that has happened with many of. us. >> It is, but it was surrounded by death.

And on both sides. He What an. interesting character. He He would be a. good subject for a biography. That man. >> Yeah. >> Or a movie. Um. At At camp in Cambodia, you had a. Buddhist temple inside the wire. >> Well, this is Vietnam. >> That was Vietnam. Why was Why did you have a Buddhist. temple in there? And what. What did you and the monks talk about? >> Hey, we didn't talk much. >> [laughter]. >> Although.

my. time frame again, this is '68. >> Mhm. >> Height of the. I I was there for the Tet Offensive and. and that sort of thing. Um. The The camp had been established and it. was a small mountain small hill, actually, 50 some. feet up. And. by the way, this is in the the Delta. There's actually this area called Seven. Mountains in the Delta. Most of Delta,

as you know, is perfectly flat and wet. and. and they had these big mountains that. were major fighting was going on. And um. Yeah, we um. the way the temple was I it was there. when when I arrived. One of the main things though, my. main. uh interpreter uh there. we called him Mike had actually been a.

monk for 6 years. So, did have some you. know, that was a personal discussion and. then um. uh however, um on the top of this little. hill in the saying there was a small. enclosure and we we'd always have. somebody on top and in saying people. were located in different places in case. you got hit, you didn't want to lose. everything at once. And I I can remember cuz we usually stay. up pretty late on that and going to. sleep and waking up being surrounded by.

monks, you know, chanting, you know, so. >> [laughter]. >> kind of a. oh or an interesting awakening. >> I bet. Uh did you talk to them about. consciousness and near-death. experiences, anything like that? >> no. NDEs don't even come. Remember, this is '68. Uh. Raymond and Elizabeth don't come into. the field until mid-70s. >> Right. >> discussions. So,

>> But before I think Moody coined the. phrase, but they were still uh. existed. >> Well, there. I have an interesting model someplace. that uh in fact I wrote and published it. in I don't know which journal, but it was that you basically as you. have events that occur and something. And that's kind of interesting ones and. twos and then you go out and then you. find out well, no, there's really more. of them and then you go out and you find.

out well, Jesus, huge number of studies. and then you do study of studies and. when you do that you find out oh, this. started happening long before the. zero patient, if you will. And. so, that's one of the ones where yes, there have always been. now we you know, go back to earth Plato. and things and you find out it was. there, you just didn't notice it before.

>> I think it's a great resource to have. Buddhist monks. in to talk to about that stuff. >> Well, like I say, that was. the time frame is is off by a decade or. so. >> Yeah. Now, we'll get into Raymond Moody a. little bit later, too, cuz he's. he's fascinating. He's changed my. thinking on a quite a few things, Raymond Moody. That's and Kubler-Ross, too. You. mentioned Elizabeth. >> Yeah. >> You knew everybody. >> Well, Elizabeth was the head of my.

doctoral committee. And and that's. one of these strange stories and. I had answered some questions before and. one of them was was there any event that. to change that? No, there there are just. so many of them. What had happened is. I was in. OES school in California and I'd seen. some tapes where she was now talking.

about near-death experiences. This would have been '77, '78 time. frame. And. >> [clears throat]. >> she had come to lecture and then there. was a workshop that I attended. on my on my own. And it was very unusual in that. >> [clears throat]. >> about 50% of the people who were in. attendance were medical professionals. About a quarter of the people. were like me, just kind of interested.

The other quarter were dying. >> Oh my goodness. >> So, from an emotional stand I mean this. is really an intense kind of workshop, very different. And um. so what I had got I was stationed at uh. Fort McPherson in Atlanta at the time. and I just sent her a letter. There was. kind of a G, thanks. Uh it was very. impactful and and what not cuz. these do get emotionally in intense as. >> I get.

>> as you can imagine. Um. So, a few weeks later. uh. secret- we had secretaries at the time. came in. and said, you know, you got a call from. uh Elizabeth uh. her assistant. Okay. So, and the call was says, "Well, Elizabeth is going to be coming through. Atlanta tomorrow. Can you meet her?". Now, these Remember, you could still go. out to the gate and all of that. And she.

has several hours there. Can you meet. Well, of course. And I was getting ready to work on a. dissertation in a different area, but. in uh behavioral science. And uh so she arrives and I said, "I. think I'm supposed to ask you a. question." So, she says, "What's that? Would you you. work on the committee?" She says, "Oh, yes.". >> [laughter]. >> You know, didn't want to get into models and. things, but anyway, that's one of those. events and she and her other comment.

was, "Look, I know a thousand people in. Atlanta and I chose you to call and I. have no idea why.". That's when I said, "I think I'm supposed to ask a. question.". >> Yes. Do you believe in synchronicities. and things like that? Yeah, how do you not? >> Yeah. Yeah. I. we'll probably get into generic. consciousness sorts of things, but uh. you know, that is one of many that have.

occurred. And so, you say, "Is there a single. event?" No, there's just those that. happened and happened. Uh. My my probability throughout the. military career is totally impossible. Uh you know, you said, "Colonel, um. my probability of making colonel is. below zero.". Because I had not done the you were. supposed to do certain things. And.

technically, I was an infantry officer. I spent most of my time in special. forces and doing other sorts of things. at two tours ever. in in the infantry. And so, um like when. the board came out, I was getting ready. to retire. So, then I said, "Okay, that's It's been fun.". But uh like I say, the probabilities are. just impossible. >> Why was it so hard? I mean, you were. enlisted as private. And I I I think.

they call you guys a mustang. Come up hard come up hard hard way. >> uh. >> [clears throat]. >> Well, when I went to OCS kicking and. screaming, so. >> You didn't want to go to OCS? >> No, not really. >> What What did What did you want to do? >> Well, by this time, I was an E7, one of. the youngest in the army, in a sergeant. major position. I mean, that's just impossible. >> What What What year were you E Did you. get promoted to E7? >> Um.

62, 63. Somewhere in there. I'd have to go back. and check check the records. >> So, you're only in 6 or 7 years. >> Mhm. >> Only about 6 years. >> yeah. >> Yeah. >> And there were a whole set again of. synchronicities that happened that could. allow for that. And um. yeah. So, for me, certain majors were gods. >> Sure. >> [laughter]. >> Why would I want to be one of them?

>> [gasps]. >> So, you wanted to you wanted to just. stay with the infantry. You didn't want. to. >> Well, no. I was SF, Special Forces. >> Right. So, you wanted to stay there. >> Pretty much. I mean, that was. Yeah. I was more interested in special. operations than, um, yeah. And, of course, then as I got promoted, I was a Special Forces medic. I got in then in the operations slot. And then, um.

Uh, okay. After OCS, it was a short time. after that that Vietnam was heating up. And that I I went back on active duty. And they say the rest is history. >> Yeah. There's a part of your story that. that amazes me. Uh, between assignments, you were scuba. diving the Bermuda Triangle. looking for pre-cataclysm civilizations. >> Mhm. >> What did you find and why did you do. that? >> Um, why did I do that? By this time, I'm.

quite interested. This is now, uh, '69-ish. Maybe '70. >> Oh, so you're actually between tours. >> Well, yeah. The reality was at that time. But, now. I'm commissioned as a captain. I had. been come out of Vietnam already. >> You're captain already? >> Oh, yeah. Well, [laughter] remember in. Vietnam, that went Yeah. It was 2 years to captain.

Uh, so, uh, you know, rightly or wrongly, that. you know, as I say, war, what do you. get? Promotions. [laughter]. So, yeah. We, um. Uh, I was, uh, most of the time taking. any period long period of leave, you. just didn't do that just because of the. jobs you were in and whatnot. And so if. you were going to be off for a few. weeks, it was between assignments. And I think that's where.

where was I coming from? Uh. I think. Well, not sure where I was coming from, but I was going to. Fort Benning. uh to go to the uh career course, if you. will. But I had time and where I was. from, Miami area, I lived there at the. time. So uh in fact, when I was in. Vietnam, my family. uh they had stayed there. And. uh I had also run into people that had.

done some. pretty unique. research into. uh. the Benney. the Benney Wall and what in fact, J. Manson Valentine is the one who found. the uh area and uh. uh. couple of there was some twins that I. knew, you know, hate this again. Re- reaching way, way back. But uh had introduced me and had an.

opportunity to go out and actually dive. on it. Uh I have problems with the. quote explanation that it bends or. something like this. Cuz it took both of. them It was the thing without I think it. was 1,800 m long. And when you dive on it, you dive this. side, it's ocean. Here are whole series. of rocks that are very clearly placed in. there, huge and.

and you flow out the other side, it's. not there. And you could free dive it. Uh so we didn't need tanks or or. anything to do it. So um. Yeah. And. another area of interest even more so. now is. uh in. I am not a fan of out of Africa. uh for the division and I think we're. finding more and more evidence that. uh particularly in Western Hemisphere uh.

our notion of history has got to be. wrong. There were huge. pockets of civilization where. you you just can't get there from here. >> No. >> With if you use the typical out of. Africa uh approach. Not to mention as. you know they go well well they. Cro-Magnon and then and you meet the. Soviets and you go well. and then you meet and you go well where.

did they come from? You know, why were. these other pop. you know, pockets of uh population. there. And when you get into Central and South. America I have done this is much more. recently. But when you go through you know, well particularly in Central America. and you see all these mounds that are. there. Basically every mound is a temple. They just haven't been excavated yet. They're doing more with lidars, you. know, looking and.

they coming up finding larger and larger. groups. And I found that's true all the. way down into the Mato Grosso. Um had I remember being in uh Ica. uh in Peru and seeing the mummies there. and say we're going. I said well where did they give and they. gave me the Elouise chain and then you. know, cold game and they were like. and you go home and but you asked why. why don't you do some better DNA testing.

and things and the answer was funding. quite frankly. But uh the more of that we're looking, you're finding larger and larger. population centers throughout. You get. in the Mato Grosso, for instance, the. areas. uh in Brazil, uh when I'm. Um. >> And they're finding these giant roads. connecting all these places. >> the point? Yeah. >> Um. yeah, they keep revising the date. backwards farther and farther. >> Yeah.

>> Were you looking for Atlantis? >> Yes. >> You were looking for Atlantis? >> So. >> Well, I had certainly heard, you know, beyond the pillars of Hercules as the. continents of Atlantis. Uh so, that's sort of what it was uh. listed as. Um. can't say it was Atlantis, per se. Certainly it didn't was not continental. in form. Uh but, um there was something there. that was pretty damn big, and no, I. don't think it was fish pens or.

something like that. >> So, there's no question that Bimini is. man-made. But, we just don't know what it was for. >> Uh. Bimini is an island. >> I mean, Bimini Bimini Road. >> The Bimini Yeah, in my view, yeah. I do. not see that Well, certainly man-made, and certainly not simple you know, you know, explanation of that. Way, way too big. >> Why do you think there's such pushback. on the theory.

of a pre. like a pre-diluvian civilization? What. Why resist that? >> Well, part of it's [clears throat] just. generic history. And there's two things, and one of them too we'll get into, and. and that is literally worldview. And. we've been kind of bouncing around the. outside of this already. >> Mhm. >> Uh but, one of the pure materialistic, you know, we're going to go back and get to the. the God particle or something like that.

And the other that I tend to support is. more like Max Planck. that says you can't get behind. consciousness and I need the idea that. consciousness. arises or the physical arises from. consciousness as opposed to, you know, something we generate in a few pounds of. meat. >> Yeah. I tend to believe the same thing, but I. I don't know who. created it in the first place. Was.

consciousness here before the Big Bang? >> Consciousness is. >> It is. >> I get that question a lot and. it's kind of hard to explain. And in our. you know, the world view again that we. brought up the standard view. Of course, we're seeing a huge shift now between. classical physics to quantum. uh. uh my best quote on that was from John. Feynman.

who had been at Los Alamos, as you know, and goes. anybody who says they understand quantum. mechanics doesn't. >> That's right. That's a great quote. Um. I'm coming up at a break, but I can't. help but ask. Did you. You were friendly with Ed Teller. >> Yes. >> Did you and and Teller ever discuss. Max Planck's theories about. consciousness? >> No. >> I would have loved to get his. >> Yeah, I would have. >> picking his brain.

>> We did do UFOs and we you may want to. discuss some of that. a bit longer, but uh. Yeah. No, and as you know, had him over. literally over for dinner several times. and uh. because. more interested initially in what's his. take on UFOs. >> What did he think? >> Your the quote was you're looking in the. wrong place. And he did not mean by that in looking. in the wrong files. He was talking about.

telescopes and things like that. But. again, we're still talking the time when. even my thinking was we're talking. physical hard craft and. we're we're crap flying around uh. But and I had by this time had already. had the uh. advanced theoretical physics and so. you've got into some of that. >> Yeah, we'll get into that. >> So we had.

a lots of cases and what Now, he was. interested in Cash-Landrum. >> He was? >> Yeah. >> What what turned you on to that case? Cuz that's 1980. >> Radiation. >> Radiation. >> Yeah. Cash-Landrum was December of 1980. >> Yep. Um. >> And then I mean, remember his thing, radiation the idea of people being. irradiated and that, you know, that was. what got some personal interest. >> All right, we'll take a quick break. When we come back, I want to talk about.

the new mental battlefield. >> Okay. >> All right, we'll be right back. Okay, in in December 1980, you published. The New Mental Battlefield, sent it to. Military Review, expected them to reject. it and they put it on the cover. >> Yep. >> Who was the editor? What was he like? >> Well, [clears throat] now well, that was. key and another one of these. serendipitous events. Yeah, I was attending at the Command. General Staff College at Leavenworth. Not terribly challenging and so I wrote.

the article cuz I was interested in. these various weird things. Um like I said, I had really didn't. think cuz I went into remote viewing and. psychokinesis and that goes. at that time, a book that had recently. come out with Psychic Discoveries Behind. the Iron Curtain. And so, what are the Soviets doing and. all that? You're going to hear I By the. way, I keep slipping within Soviet and. Russia and the understand the.

difference. But, most of my life was in the Soviet. era. So, we were very concerned about. what they were doing. So, I wrote the. article and then. turns out and I don't remember the. editor's name, but I got to meet him. He'd had a near-death experience and had. been out of body. And that's how the thing got from not. only printed to the front front cover of. the magazine. Um. so, it came out by By the time it came.

out, I'm now in Washington in the. Pentagon uh assigned to the. uh Department of Army Inspector General. And frankly, it came out with. you know, not not a real lot of it. But, however, there was a you know, Jack Anderson. >> Mhm. >> Okay. So, Jack Anderson picks up on this. and he writes the story The Voodoo. Warriors of the Pentagon, you know, ate. it off of. Look at what the Pentagon's wasting your.

money. And uh of course, he was syndicated, so. this went out widely. Uh I got to meet. the guy. Turns out he hadn't written the. article. Uh. uh. Forget the guy's name who done it. He. took that and wrote a book. What. happened was. said they got more of a response to that. article than anything he had ever. written. and it was 99% against them. Everybody. was saying, "Well, of course the Soviets. are doing Yes, we ought to be doing that.

and and whatnot.". Which was not what and he actually. showed me the draft article, which was. written positively. and they just flipped the few words from. the Look at the neat stuff they're doing. to Look at how they're wasting your. money and whatnot. Um fast forward. after that happens, again, I'm literally. in the bowels of the Pentagon and. this lieutenant colonel comes roaring in. and I went, "Did you write this.

article?" And I said, "Yeah.". "Don't you know the process for getting. it cleared?". >> [clears throat]. >> "Yes, why?". And he. Why I had the file there, I don't know, but it happened to have one and he says, "What office are you from?". >> [laughter]. >> And he'd been from actually the. assistant chief of staff. Quarterly was fast forward a number of. years later and I mean we're doing a. spoon bending party. and um.

>> [clears throat and cough]. >> this guy raises his hand and he. colonel's running. "Uh did you write the such an article?". I said, "Yeah. Would you like to meet. the guy who cleared it?". >> Wow, he was there at the spoon bending. party? >> Well, this was an official event so it. all the people there were military. But. the point is he'd gotten his ass handed. to him. >> Oh, he did? >> for [laughter]. for letting it out and you know, they. Um he may or may not have known about I.

think it was Grill Flame at the time. Uh. but um. >> Oh, pre-Stargate? >> Oh, long I mean it went [clears throat]. through several iterations in program. but his name. >> Sure. >> changed and locations and things like. that. Uh but. uh it was all under actually the. assistant chief of staff for. intelligence. And so that was the office who came in. screaming cuz but this uh gets into the. compartmentalization where part of. people know what's going on and other.

people don't and it didn't raise any. flags at the time that it went in but. Yeah. >> So, you brought the spoon bending. parties. Can tell me a little bit about. Stubblebine? What was he like. in I mean, did he really try to walk. through walls and. >> No. >> do stuff with the clouds? >> No, well, well, the clouds are real. And. I used to do that. You know, you could. you can actually do that.

>> You can make clouds. >> Yeah. disappear. Yeah. And what you do. is, you know, in order to know that it. was the right one, you got kind of a. chain and and you got to identify which. one you're working with. It's kind of. hard to explain, but yeah, mentally you. can bust clouds. >> You can do it. >> Yeah. >> How do you know they're just not doing. that on their own? >> Well, that's the point there is, like I. say, you have a series and you pick one. and you pick it, you know, that one and.

the ones next to it don't disappear. Yeah, and only the one that you're. working on. does. Um highly I don't know of any. scientific data that would back it up. My personal experience is, yeah, we we. did that. So, that part was done. One of the things um about Stubblebine. was A, he was very interested in the. field and in all of that. Uh what Well, what was done on the. generally at the time is he was one of.

these people who was allergic to like. bee stings or thing. And so, he was going out to water weed. and constantly getting shots. So, you. know, from a military perspective, it's not. good. In fact, I got evacuated once on. bee stings in Vietnam. Uh. we call them VCBs, but uh. you know, where you get multiple stings. uh very quickly. So, he couldn't do. that. So, this was a good Duncan thing.

He says, "Well, if if I'm mostly. air or, you know, and. uh the needle is mostly made up of. nothing, then we ought to be able to. interpenetrate without doing that. But I have no indication they ever ran. into a wall or anything. you know, like that. >> But he did believe that everything is. made up of mostly nothing. >> Oh, yeah. Well, that's true. >> That's true. >> Yeah. I mean, you think about even.

just from a pure atomic level, remember. most of the stuff is not matter. It's. space in between. >> Of course. >> So, the idea would be to interpenetrate, you know, if I pump push this way, then. it hurts, but if I can slip between, and may not hit pain receptors. >> So, the spoon bending parties, were were. those stubble mine or is that a Hawk? >> The answer is yes. >> Yes, okay. [laughter]. >> No, what happened,

we had heard about Jack. Um. Jack Hawk, by the way, who is for people. who don't know, is an aerospace engineer. at McDonnell Douglas. >> Mhm. >> And. um. he had actually this is where Uri comes. in as well. Uri was kind of the model, so he'd heard about these things. And. so, Jack developed a process where. basically anybody could do it.

Um and then what happened was that um. we had heard about it was coming he was. actually a contractor for CIA at the. time working on a project, which brought. him back and forth to the Washington. area. >> Uri Geller was? >> No, this is. Jack Hawk. >> Jack, a great guy. Um. in fact, we got him the Dinsdale award. for it. He was very interested in these. areas. He had developed Anyway, he had. developed a kind of a.

what they would call the PK parties, or. PKMB. And so, uh some friends had him over and. I attended that and and so on. And I was. kind of interested. So, I went to Burt. and said, "Hey, you know, hey, this is. real. Let's set it up.". Uh so, we had uh an event at my. apartment. It was in northern Virginia. Uh do you know Andrea Puharich or. Puharich? >> Very well. >> Uh well, Andrea was there. Uh as a.

matter of fact, uh probably don't know Ted Rockwell. >> No. >> Ted's key could be cuz Ted is or was. there. There he had his own business. He. he was Rickover's technical director. And he brought uh with him uh holding by. him Ann Gaiman, who is uh. quite a effective medium and that. And. so, we had a number of people. I guess I. had There was an ambassador there and. some others. So, and we ended up we're.

sitting around literally on the floor in. kind of, you know, quasi circle. And. still not quite sure, but it start When. you start those. you you can use some physical force. And. you you talk them through it and you can. feel. most feel a perceptual change in in the. material and all of that. So, we were doing that and it turns out that. Burt was sitting directly across from.

Ann Gaiman. Uh she's one we get to the final session. where you hold a pair of forks, matched. forks. You know, and no physical force allowed. And all of a sudden this thing goes. whoop. And we went, "Oh, shit.". >> [laughter]. >> Did you expect that to happen? >> No. >> No. >> Uh well, kind of hoped I mean that sort. of but but the idea that it and but if. it happened that dramatically and. directly across from him and absolutely.

no physical force and I don't know. Oh. Um. this is real. Now, sometimes it it it's not like and I. asked all the time you've been the first. one to. A, don't do that. Don't demonstrate. Uh. and it's more because of and this is why. we went to the PK partying and Bert. would bring. you know, the the senior folks in. Um because if I bend it, you can give me.

100 reasons how and yes, there are. tricks and like they have trained with. the you know, I don't know if you know a. lot new. He's a local magician here. And that's kind of one of his sticks. now. However, he does believe we got. involved because you know, he does. believe that it can be done real, but. there are ways to manipulate it. So, uh the idea in fact in taking us to. See, Bert would have loved ends.

INSCOM is a unit around the world. I. mean, and we supplied the people to to. the listening station for NSA and all of. that. >> And what's INSCOM for folks who don't. know? >> Intelligence and Security Command. Uh they're now at Fort Belvoir. They. were at Arlington Hall at at the time. Uh. two star command, but you have these. colonel cut level command all over the. world. So, they'd bring them in about. once a quarter. You know, what's going. on? What are you going to do? Planning.

for the next night. And so, periodically we would do it. Um. By the way, these were not universally. thought to be a good thing, okay? >> not. >> There were a lot of people very. resistant. But. his reason. for doing it was not to bend spoons and. that Oh, she used to get asked, are you. going to do bend tank barrels? And they. knew. and this was the early '80s already, but.

computers, you know, that's where I. think the vulnerability actually is. But. the idea. >> Oh, okay. >> But the idea was more. and doing it with his commanders to say. don't disregard things just because you. don't understand it. Because we had been. blindsided. Remember Sputnik and all of that. There. were a number of Soviet advances that. had really caught us off guard and you.

go back and you look and they well, the. information was there. Uh, but. well, the classic one is one that you. actually talked about in the program. that had to do with the submarines. uh, that and it was Joe McMoneagle is. the one who had done that, but he came. up you know, they had asked him, this is. the remote remote viewing program now. They'd given him in that case geographic. coordinates. It's a bit changed, but. uh, and he says, well, there's this.

big-ass submarine that is dual hulled. and the tubes are forward of the sail. and a whole bunch of things that were. different. And [snorts] they sent it to our boat. builders and they said, that's. >> Right. >> Yeah. We we don't have any information. and besides, if you built something that. big, when it went to depth, it would. crush. And then the clouds parted and the. cameras came on and there was the. Typhoon class submarine. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> There it is. >> Yeah.

So. >> With double hulls and all that. >> But the point, man, it was all as Joe. had. outlined. But the his point was, no, we've been. blindsided enough. So just because you. get things you don't believe now you've. had an experience. of seeing things that would happen like. that. It's a reminder that, you know, check. check it out. Don't just just. classically disregard it. >> Can we see some of the silverware? >> Oh, yeah.

>> Now, these are amazing. >> program. Um what I brought with me is these are. literally the actual forks that happen. have tape on cuz I normally keep them. stuck. Now, you got to What what happens. is that at the end. what we call the graduate school, you. hold them dustly. And so this took place at Xerox Center.

and we had again folks from all over the. world, mostly 06's if you will, fives, couple generals. And so I'm. in it's kind of a semicircle. I'm in. front. And there's two rows and these guys. yell. And this thing had dropped the full 90°, which I did not see. >> Were you holding it? >> No, no, no. This is. I'll get to why I have.

them. Hold These are the actual forks. But what happens then well at GS 18, a. science advisor is the one who saw it. drop and he said, "Well, yeah, but I'm. also frankly a little skeptical that. somebody is not putting me on cuz. remember these people are not happy. >> Right. >> that we're doing this on hallowed. grounds. But then. like I say, this drops over. It comes back up to straight up. It goes back down and back to where it.

literally waved. Now, that's an N of 1. I saw that once. These are the ones. And the reason I. have them is the guy put them down and. said, "I wish that hadn't have. happened.". I mean, really scared him. >> Sure. >> And because normally we when we do these. things, people take all this stuff home. with them, which is fine. Normally, that's what. would have happened. There were some. other.

major bends that took place last night. and whoever did it did take them with. them. You can tell if that's. >> Oh, you can tell? >> Yeah. The. But the point is. the only time I. I saw hands drop that once a full 90°. I saw this was the only one where we. actually saw it, you know, kind of. literally wave that at us. Um understand it cuz. he was. assigned in Europe.

And Sullivan was over on another trip. and saw him. Said he did it once more at home and put. it down and said, "Never again.". >> So, who is bending it? >> Well, this colonel. >> The colonel was? And he didn't expect it. to work? >> He did not want it to work. >> I understand that. >> This is a personal, you know, scaring. him. Um now, one of the things we haven't. gone into is more of the little work of. the devil in all of these things. This. is a major issue.

I mean, not to be taken trivial. As you know, you get into the UFO, we. had the, you know, Vice President Al. talking about demons that that are out. there at all. Uh but. I had well, when the article came out, a. number of friends that I talked to again. I'm in in the building. Uh and they're. going like, "Uh that's the work of the devil. We. shouldn't be doing that.". And as a matter of fact, I.

It's a good rationale why the program. moved from the army to Defense. Intelligence Agency. And Chief of Staff of the Army, well, fundamentalist Christian. >> Mhm. >> Uh. and. those issues have never gone away. >> Where do you stand on that? Do you think it's the. some type of spiritual warfare, anything. like that? >> That's a very different question. >> Is it? >> Yeah.

Is it Is it spiritual warfare or. whatnot? That I do think there's a. spiritual domain that we're getting into. and this is where. you know, all of these things come. together and it's back into. consciousness and and all of that. But. you added another. word and that was warfare. >> Yes. >> It. And does it happen now? >> [clears throat]. >> One of my problems with many of the. organized religions is that they set up.

dogma. Uh. I'll digress a bit. I said Kubler-Ross had been the head of. my doctoral committee and I was doing. the dissertation, she made me change one. word. That was from religious to spiritual. >> Ah. >> And it made a major difference in the. outcome of the thing and many of the. people said. I don't like the dogma of the church. but I will have a spiritual relationship.

with supreme being, whatever you want to. call that. Uh there were others who said I believe. it's spiritual but I like the ritual of. the church is from. having grown up within that. But it gets. Yeah, terribly. terribly complex stuff. >> It does. I mean, I know you know Chris. Bledsoe very well. >> Yep. >> When um when he was here, I. I asked him, "Can anyone learn to summon. orbs?" He said, "Yes, but you. shouldn't.".

>> I haven't talked to her been touch with. Chris since yesterday. >> [laughter]. >> Um. >> He doesn't. >> You know that story else or should I. tell that one? >> Tell it. >> What had happened is that um. Um yeah. He made me admit him in Pennsylvania. initially and talked and had this long. story. I mean it. He told it but you can do hours. literally.

And so I knew about the initial thing. Uh Victoria and I went to. see him and we spent a few days and we. went down to the Cape Fear River. where that incident uh the initial. incidents had occurred. And so what got my attention, well, I. already had. with pretty positively disposed because. I'd seen enough stuff. But we went down to the the lower thing. right next to the river.

Walked back up where he says he had seen. the. going beams and all that. So we're [clears throat] at the car and. Victoria and his daughter Emily get in. the back of the seat of the car. and Chris and I are leaning against the. left front fender. It's getting just. starting to get dark. Uh. twilight and all that. And he turned to me and said, "Oh, I think they're here.". And with that thing pops into view and.

it goes zipping off and I saw that. And. that was there was a second I guess the. temporal relationship between him. saying, "I think it's here." And then now we've. done a lot more uh since that. Uh in. fact doing some competition uh now and. trying to prove being conscious of. uh the big one. Did you do the one on real real. splitter? Uh this was on Beyond Skinwalker Ranch. and the.

incident that I think is truly. phenomenal. is that that the split screen where. Chris is sitting there pointing off the. UFOs or or the orbs if you will or over. there. The second camera has the orbs. The third one he's got a EEG helmet on. and you see a massive shifts in brain. waves when he says you know this. interaction is occurring. >> Wow. >> You know I easily qualify kind of can't.

quite explain it but it does say that. there is. there are things going on and I think I. can't say it's totally unique. I will. say I'm hearing more and more of people. who are. you know doing summoning. I was should. mention kind of you. Bob Monroe and that. >> I wanted to ask you if you knew Bob. >> Well. >> the Monroe Institute. >> Yeah. Well, I knew Bob. >> Of course you did. >> [laughter]. >> Um.

but. well what folks don't know is yeah he. used to go out and do this too. >> Bob would summon orbs? >> Yeah. Well, no UFOs. >> UFOs. >> Yeah and and by the way Elizabeth also. was a friend of his had been down there. and yes they would summon them in and. see the See one of my first questions. that I do on the. UFO presentations is what do you mean? Cuz I got orbs and the little balls of.

light that are running around. They've. got a hard craft that are miles. literally miles across. and thousands and thousands of. variations in between. That is why I come down against the ETH. or extraterrestrial hypothesis not. because they aren't there but that's. just too simple. Unless Earth is on the. galactic list of bucket list of places. that have to be visited or something. like that. But there's pieces of that.

that don't make sense. But the idea is again it's like what we. said before. Yeah, it's happened and. it's got to be G. But it's kind of always been going on. It's like near death experiences. Um for many families for years and years. uh they just never talked about it. It. was something that was talked in the. family because it was crazy or something. of this. Um. I happen to have one of the.

most unique. and uh. NDEs. where you have physical effects and. that. >> You had one? >> Well, no, this is. uh. They were I guess task force Delta was. being formed which is different from. Delta Force. >> Right. >> This was a a think tank sort of thing. and I got introduced to a. an individual. He's not really I think ever come public.

but. what was unique about it cuz they told. me that he was shot down. What happened. was. uh normally you know this is Vietnam. story but normally when you went out at. least in pairs. well, this particular day this one Cobra. was out flying along. And the Cobra you. know, you got the pilot. pilot and co-pilot lined up all like. this. Um. they're kind of screwing around and they.

get raped with. 51 caliber. And it's bad enough that Jim. gets hit. inside the leg breaks his leg. And all of that. The um. what happens. as he described it to me, it was. when he gets hit, he pulls forward. the. supposedly the landing or the controls. are shot away. But he remembers landing. Now, what.

happened though was there was no place. to land per se. There was a small. opening. So, they go into a country brings it. nose up, so it's going to come in boom. fast. Going to be a very bad day under. all circumstances. Um but it just kind of ameliorates the. shock cuz it, you know, it's coming in. like this. What's key though is that you have no. idea what the orientation of the. helicopter is going to be cuz the blades. are still spinning, which is going to. affect the way it lands. So, you don't.

know until the end of that. Well, it turns out uh about uh click. click and a half in front of them is a. friendly fire support base, and they see the incident happen. Helicopter crashes, blah blah blah. Pieces of All of a sudden, Jim's out of. his body up floating above, and he's. looking down, and he can say, "Here's. the helicopter. Here's how it's. oriented, and there's the base uh in. front of us.".

And says this hooded He said this I said. why male, but he thought it was a male. figure says, "Uh what are you doing here?". And he said, "No, the response was well, I want help for them, not I'm in. trouble." And I. He says, "But don't you know?" He says, "Know what? You're not dead yet.". With this, Jim sits up. You know, inside the thing. Back seat. has already gotten out, and he's running. away. At that instant, he turns, and he.

sees Jim move, so he runs back and grabs. him. He says, "I thought you were dead. You haven't moved since we were hit.". And he says there's a fire or friendly. base that's out over here. I'm going to. go for help. He says, "No, Jim. That's. No, no. It's in this direction." Guy in. says, "No, it's this way.". Jim can't move. Got a broken leg. His. face is literally burned off. >> Oh my god. >> Pain is now setting in and he goes, "No time to argue.".

Literally gets the guy to give him his. pistol as he's decided to commit suicide. rather than be captured. Um So, what happens is the bad guys come. sweeping in. Bad in this case is. obviously relative. And then the. friendly base comes in and they uh they. find him. Now, this is the only case that I have. cuz they put him in a jungle penetrator. and lift him up. And he can say, "Here's the helicopter.

There's the base. This guy's lost.". And saved his life because before he. passes out, he's able to say, "Went in. this direction." But this is the only. case that I have where the guy. physically replicates. with in body what his out of body. position would have been. >> Right. Um. I think Jim McMonagle said it was his. near-death experience that kind of. awakened his abilities. >> Well,

>> [clears throat]. >> I'm going to say I was also. I'm a past president of the. International Association for Near-Death. Studies and that's seen this change. And. one of the things that. interesting things that happened. initially, initially now we're talking. late '70s, '80s. The idea was that this was a discrete. event that happened over a very short. period of time. Uh. and that you know, yeah, mystical things.

happened, but it happened within that. time frame. One of the things that became apparent. with ions. was that no, the people did gain. abilities, particularly psychic. abilities, precognition. One of the main. things that we've got to watch but was. that electronics that these people. couldn't be around electronics that they. could be affected by it. But that turned out to be.

one of the. unexpected. issues that happened. Of course, the. other was. the amount of things that happened. during this discrete integer, you know, how long you were out. I. Time just doesn't seem to count and I. don't. I. You know, my brother, Evan? No no. relationship on that. Very good. There. there's a case where he was out. of.

for nearly a week. And. >> Out of body for a week? >> Well, he NDE has lasted. He's definitely. in coma. for about that long and he. got meningitis. And he has these fantastic experiences. that happened. One of the. but the thing about Evan that I think. was unique. he was a neurosurgeon. So, he's one of the few people who came. in and says, "Well, I understand. neurophysiology and.

no, the brain could not have been. functioning.". Well, [clears throat]. aspects of there's many like and I. recommend Proof of Heaven, which is his. book. Um. Well, he's got several of the Proof of. Heaven, Map of Heaven was another one. But he talks about being out going. through these realms and he has this. butterfly. with a female that. takes him around and all of that. Turns.

out that Evan had been adopted at birth. Kind of uniquely, after he's adopted and. moved away into the Alexander family, his. birth parents marry and have other kids. So, he has siblings that he doesn't know. he doesn't know who his birth parents. are, doesn't know. much about the family or thing. >> He knows he's adopted though? >> He does know he's adopted. >> know.

>> parents, okay. >> Doesn't know his birth parents or. anything. Um. So, he gets in contact with them and he. gets a picture. of. a now deceased daughter and he says, "That's the butterfly.". >> Wow. >> Uh it it uh did not know her or anything. about it. It was. really, you know, >> Did that give him any sense of peace? Or.

how did he feel about that? >> How did he feel? Well, >> I don't know if you're familiar. >> big, of course. Uh. >> [clears throat]. >> this stuff starts bleeding into all of. it and consciousness field because what. he will talk about is layers and layers. of complexity. that is hard to uh. you know, beyond our capability of. understanding certainly. Uh. that um.

Yeah. But but this was part of you know, this. is transformational. kinds of things that happen. Um. The other one of the case, well, we had jumped from Jim. Um. He's not. like I said, he's not really going. public with that much. Uh. >> [clears throat]. >> I forget how I learned from mutual.

friends where we were and we were both. in like the task force Delta. And uh, how that came about. The other one that. I think is well, there's so many. Again. and again you can search I N File. But another one that I think is. absolutely critical. Um. Uh. Yeah, there's um. Mary Neal. Does that name ring a bell or to heaven. and back?

>> Yes. >> Okay. In her case, what's interesting is she's. kayaking in northern Chile. in a remote area. and. >> [clears throat]. >> long story but she. the last day and they go over a. waterfall and she's an experienced. kayaker so it's well within her range. But she gets forced into a. not the way she wanted to go and goes. over and the kayak goes in and locks. underwater.

And there normally there's a release so. you can hit but because of the force of. the waterfall can't reach it or anything. like that. Probably underwater 30 35 minutes. >> Yeah. >> Find her body down there. Bring her back. Two guys appear. and they assisted in carrying her, you. know, to the waiting ambulance. in an area that has no ambulances.

And then they, you know, take her to the. Um, now she says met God. being out there. Uh, another thing she had four young. children and something no mother would. want to hear is. oh, your son's going to die at 17. >> She was told that? with him. >> And did not. relay that to anybody. Like I say, it. was not. So, about a year before she finally told.

her husband By the way, she's a. orthopedic surgeon in in her own right. And they tell him and sure enough. birthday comes and he's out. skateboarding in a different location. and the car zigs to miss somebody and. zags and. Uh last time I talked to her was. interesting was that she said, "Well, there were There were other things that. have yet to come to pass.". And so, as she says, "Well, that's.

personal, but yeah, there. more information that had been. transferred.". >> Who would why burden her with that. information? Why do that? >> Oh, I would not say she sees that as a. burden. >> Knowing that your son's going to die, I. don't know if I can handle it. >> Knowing that we're going to be together. >> John, do you think Do you think about. what's. Do you think about what's going to. happen. to you? >> No, I'm long past my expiration date.

>> You are and you're still going strong. >> Well, my mother died as it were from a. biological standpoint. My mother died. early 50s and father about 70. And I'm long past that now, so I'm. >> you don't. You don't seem too worried. >> No. Oh, no. I've. My question is Well, it's like all of. these things. You know, these incidents. that have happened and leading me going. like, "Would somebody just give us the map?". >> Right.

>> Which What do you want to do? We'll go. and do it. >> Right. >> [laughter]. >> It'd be easier. >> It would be. >> An area that has come up more recently. though has to do with um. uh pre- or pre-birth agreements as it. and this is coming I think more and more. into vogue that we made certain. agreements. and you're going to be presented you. still have free will. and you get into the conundrum of free. will versus free destination. but the.

that you can. um. you know you'll be presented with. certain things that will allow you to. make choices and you still have a choice. of. which way to you know to go with it but. um. Yeah I've always wondered what we well. particularly with the world as it is now. did we really sign up for this? >> Right. Um I think I think Raymond Moody's. talked about it. I don't know if you. know Michael Newton's work. He's talked. about that life between lives and how we.

kind of gather together as in soul. groups and we decide together like all. right. I'll see you down there and this is what. we're going to do. You kind of feel the. same way? >> Pretty much. Pretty much. I had. Well. This is kind of an odyssey kind of trip. you know in the movie but but one of the. issues was that the the temporal shifts. that that take place you. And finally at home I did the same thing. when writing it but.

um. I don't know. way back. Yeah that was doing hypnotic. regressions. >> You were? >> Yeah. And. you know the issue is our what's uh. what's in between and all of that. >> What did you see? >> Well no I was the hypnotist. >> What? Where did you learn to do that? >> I am a terrible.

uh terrible subject. Yeah I'm a control. freak. >> Same. >> And I admit it. >> Doesn't work on me. >> Yeah and. I don't like you about I don't know if. we're going to go into ayahuasca or to. like that but it uh working with the. shamans um um. but you got enough information and. again a number of mediums and. >> [clears throat]. >> again some none of those things that we. had seen is just make no sense and.

familiar with automatic writing this one. is coming to mind now. um now this would have been Fort Benning. so 70. 71 72 time frame. working with a guy Charles Lowe who was. a professor at was it Columbus College. there in. I forget the name the college that that. they're in Columbus Georgia and they. were taking night courses and they met. some mediums who were doing phenomenal.

work they they used a a planchette. >> Mhm. >> so it was like you you thing but they. had a pin but with ball points on the. back. and it would get these long long. messages and that what was most amazing. to me though and all of that interesting. messages though. but this would get this thing would. scribble I mean just. and then all of a sudden they go. and this picture would emerge. >> What was someone's hand on it like a. Ouija board planchette? Okay.

>> was. his hand is moving it. >> and it would draw a picture. >> It well it would looks like it was just. scribbling until the end and it makes. two or three moves and all of a sudden. you go wow that's a picture and all the. background stuff and all been put in and. certainly beyond somebody I think beyond. their ability to. going to scribble a bunch and then oh by. the way a couple lines and and here is. this picture. >> What was it a picture of?

>> I don't recall but. >> You don't recall? >> [laughter]. >> We're talking what 70 71 time frame. I. mean, yeah. As I said, there are so many. instances like this. >> What What deal do you think you made. before What deal do you think you made. come before you came back? What What was. your reason to be here? >> Lack of common sense. >> [laughter]. >> Well, all these things happened to you. >> Yeah. I.

I like it would be much easier if from. the other side they said, "Here's a. blueprint. >> Yeah. >> this." As opposed to. "Oh, you're going to almost die, but. you know, but then. these sorts of things will happen.". >> I. >> I mean, I look at. Vietnam there some of the stories were. way off, but. uh I could tell you the difference. between the bullet singing and the. bullet cracking. That means that it's that close. You. know, and that was an instance where.

for whatever reason, the guy who was. shooting at me, who was pretty damn. accurate cuz the second shot. uh. well, that was already it happened to be. a ditch there. You know, it was right. online. And had he done what he should. have done, I shoot center of mass as. opposed to a head shot, they he'd have. nailed me. There's no doubt about it. But, that didn't happen. Why? You know, why can't I tell you.

these things? Um. And they only make more sense in. retrospect. >> Of course. >> Um. what they do. >> Well, I You're clearly on mission still. I just want wanted to know if you felt. like you were. >> Yeah. >> But, you you definitely are. Um. I guess speaking of Vietnam and uh. What about Tell me about Project Jedi. and the and the the experiment with the. .45 cal?

>> Um well, this is back to Inscom. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Um, NLP, are you familiar with NLP? >> Uh. neurolinguistic programming? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> See, I had. the two co-founders, Richard Bandler and. John Grinder, under contract and working. with them was a guy you probably heard. of called Tony Robbins. >> I've heard of all three, yeah. >> Yeah, well, Robbins and Grinder were. working together and this is when I'm.

working for Bert. Now, NLP was designed. as a therapeutic modality, i.e., how you. take broken people and make them better. And what Frogs into Princes was the. first book by. Bandler and Grinder. Uh, and it was, you know, how do we make. them Now, in Inscom, our problem was. different. It was, how do we take good. people and make them even better? And so, uh, the uh.

it was set up, like I said, I held them. all. By this time, Bandler and Grinder have. split, so they they the twains don't. meet there, but Tony and actually did. most of the work with uh. Tony Robbins. Uh, this is, you know, before. >> Before Before Tony was Tony. >> worldwide fame and and all of that. Um, but we um. uh. it was an interagency group.

and one of the things we had in common. is everybody shot something. Now, the other problem with. uh uh. modalities were, you know, feeling. better. You can't qualify that. So, what. we did is we since everybody shot and. the question was not, did you hit the. target? Did you not it's, you know, you. hit the target and blah blah blah. So, we uh got to. it was difficult at the time. .45. ammunition was really critical.

We went out and we could go we could. contact anybody else models and so we. ended up the people in the civilian. sector in Hawaii the Army Marksmanship. unit is kind of the place to go. So we brought in the Army champion, the. interservice champion and their boss. And we did model modeling with them. And we did first of all things like.

you know. why do you do this? What do you believe. about shooting and all this and all of. them you know shooting was good and. whatnot. And you could protect life and there's a. way to make a living and and whatnot. Um. We. so we [clears throat] went to the. physical aspects of it. And got them took them in shooting and. we get them as far off as you can get. and they were pretty damn good. Even. being way off balance they had enough. muscle memory they could hit.

But if you ask them to do a mental task. like home Mary had a little lamb went to. Original you know. So obviously it was more than physical. and and much more mental. capability. >> You know it it's interesting that that. Tony Robbins and and. and those guys were involved because do. you see now how. we've got. with in like business success seminars.

there's visualization there's people. doing the cold plunges. >> Well you missed the biggie. >> Which is. >> What we did with. well again. the proof that we were working well on. that. We we had a day where um. in the morning we taught people how to. break boards you know the karate. >> That's right, he does that, too. He also. fire walking. >> Well, that's the the second step. In the. afternoon, we did the spoon bending.

And in the evening, we did fire walking. >> You did. >> Yep. And. the quote he uses but does not attribute. it well was mine was the old the. question was, "What if you had a. battalion of people that could do this?". And I said yeah, you just have to tell. them they're coming. >> Yeah. >> [gasps]. >> But it it was quite a day. >> So, was this all Project Jedi with those. guys?

Was this Jedi? >> Um. Yes. I mean, kind of attached a name. That was not one of the official titles. There have been several Jedi programs. that have come up, some of them. official, others not. We just attached a. Again, remember, this was when Star Wars. was at its track and. >> Oh, that's right. >> Jedi Warriors Sure. And just the the. thing.

>> Um did you notice that your program went. civilian? Did you notice that the program went. civilian? Like when when Tony became famous, were. you like, "We did that.". >> Yeah. Well, like I said, what he didn't do was. attribute it the quote. >> No. >> [laughter]. >> Um. Why didn't the military take it more. seriously? >> Well, no, that. Yeah, it's in the political aspects of. it. What happened.

>> don't You don't have to. >> Well, no, no. A. did for a while. Remember, this was. this which is not all popular. And you have the values of the big. system, if you will. We were operating. quite independently. Uh we started a the second problem. project that was related. And this had to do with NSA um, at the. time. Remember, INSCOM provides the people who. work at NSA.

Um, the Soviets were much faster. Uh, they they would our guys were topping. out normally at. I'd say 25-30 group in a minute. Remember, the stop code is sent in. five-digit. segment burst. And we would, uh, our guys topping out. probably around, you know, 20-30. The super debts that they had were, uh, listening to the Soviets, their fists. could get up to like 60 words a minute.

They could, you know, But we had a few people, you know, that. we had found inside that were doing. this. And that what they called them was. super debts. Turns out that what we found out was. basically we're looking for the wrong. people. We looked for smart [snorts] people. And some people who had said, you know, wrong question. The simple question to. ask is, "What kind of stereo equipment do you.

own?". >> How does that work? >> That works because they hear better. >> They hear better. >> Yeah. And and so that was really the defining. question. We if you're going to look for. people who are going to do well in this. are ones that had super hearing. Now, the other question we did have though is. where's the buffer of the mind? Because what would happen is they would. hear these things and they would tell. me, you know, it the thing would stop and it, you.

know, they're still putting this out. So, I don't have an answer for that. But the. question is, "Where is the buffer that cuz this thing. is, you know, staging and, you know, they would continue to write after the. transmission has actually stopped. >> And you couldn't find the buffer. >> Uh. maybe you could now with neurophysiology. fMRI or something like that, which we. did not you know, didn't exist right at. the time little on. You know, what what. did happen though was that um.

This is where it gets into army. political. The uh. Bert as a two-star general was in charge. of INSCOM. In the at the army staff level, you had. the. championship of operations, uh personnel, research and development, logistics are all four-star or. three-star positions, and intelligence. was two-star.

And they said, "That doesn't make sense. I mean, intelligence ought to be a. four-star. We're going to make it a. three-star position.". So, there were two people that were. allowed to. the current actually uh Bill Odom at the. time and Bert Subblebine, who was at. INSCOM. And uh. the fighting got. really ugly. Uh some of them know we had. used the Monroe Institute for training. for some of the.

uh well, just kind of a generic. orientation as well as people doing uh. remote viewing uh work. And um. We had had an accident down there. Uh. I don't know if people can look up and. find the name, but uh we had a. lieutenant. What happened was. before people went down, they came in. from all over the world, and they bust. them down to the Monroe Institute, and. they had all been screened cuz we had a. shrink. uh that uh worked with us.

>> Is this part of the Wayne. Colonel Colonel O'Connell's report? Wayne O'Connell in '81 did a report on. on the Gateway process from memory. >> That's much later. >> Later, okay. >> Yeah. Oh, no. I I know the report. Now, this is. Well, if that's '81, they. Well, the issue I was was getting to was. the accident. >> Yep.

>> So, somebody didn't show up. And this this lieutenant Badgers double. blind I want to go and go and go and go. And he goes down there and frankly. cracks up. Now, understand that in the military, unfortunately, you know, we kill a few kids every year. with tanks and things like that. They. had accidents and that. Took Well, I should also say, yeah, this. guy I saw him wrapped up. He was book.

Sometimes he's ranting and raving. They. sent him to Walter Reed. Two or three days later he's out. He's. fine. Maybe got a Thorazine shot or. something. >> Sure. >> But he he's recovered and he even got. his clearances back and and everything. >> So, he recovered from that experience? >> Oh, instant almost instantly. >> Did you need your psychiatrist involved? >> However. >> Okay. >> And now, what happens at the it's about. this time that we're upgrading the.

intelligence. uh that was used against Bert and just. decimated. He kept coming back and back. and you know, they they. They frankly got forced into retirement. Uh. the over. that and so then we were doing this. weird stuff. As Ed Soyster came in behind him. who interestingly had no intelligence. experience. He was an artillery officer, I think. And said his job was to clear.

the nest of vipers. >> You. [laughter]. Did you stay in touch with Stubblebine. after retirement? >> Yeah. >> How did he How did he do? Was he okay? >> Was he okay? It's terribly complex. He became a. truther. >> Wow. >> And really, there one of the questions. that comes up as to the efficacy of. using you had mentioned earlier when.

Chris said maybe shouldn't do it. Uh it is not risk-free. >> Um let's take a quick break and uh come. back and talk about John Hutchison and. the ATP. >> Okay. >> All right. Um our audience knows John Hutchison's. work. They don't really remember that in 1983, you were sent by the military to. evaluate John, weren't you? >> I was the one who paid him, yeah. >> Yeah. Can you just start at the. beginning? Like what How'd you learn.

about him? >> How did you learn about John? Well, there was um. George Hathaway, who is a double E from. Toronto. And uh. Um. I'm trying to think of the guy's name. who was with him, who was since. deceased. And they had a small 16-mm. film. of a bunch of really weird things. happening and then they came down and. looked at it and said, "You know, that's really impressive.

Wonder if you know, how real it is.". So, uh set up [clears throat] a program. where uh. Yeah, I was paying him. He was working. at moved in Vancouver. Now, one of the things that happened. was that he had um. Well, he liked to make sparks. I mean, that was his thing. Okay. So, he was. living in an apartment and he had a. basement lab, if you will.

And he had Van de Graaff generators, Jacob's ladders, and all all kinds of. spark-making. stuff. And the story, although I understand. there are several, but the one he told. me was that he would sit down there at. night and he. threw uh something. in in the area and all of a sudden it. hit him. And he threw it back and it came out and. hit him again. He goes like,

"What is it? There's nothing there.". And. Now, the other problem was that with all. of his electrical stuff, he was disturbing the environment. Remember, this is the days when you. know, TV went through the air and all of. that. So, he was screwing with. everybody's TV in the process. So, they. said he had to move. >> He has enough energy to overcome a. broadcast signal? >> We We exactly Well, again, he's just. putting on crap. Right. Now, one of the.

thing what he told me he was doing. was that he would look at the pictures. of Tesla. and look at what's happening in the uh. you know, his. chopper on there and just try to guess, you know, how could he replicate some of. that. It wasn't taking factual data. It. was just taking pictures and know if I. put stuff here and whatnot. >> Wow, I didn't know that. He was just. looking at the pictures trying to. >> Yeah, [laughter] he was trying to figure. out.

you know, old Tesla, of course. Um. >> [clears throat]. >> He had contacted George. George becomes. the saving grace because he came over. and did the diagrams of what what all. the things are, where they were all. physically related to each other, and. all of that. Unfortunately, part of it probably was. the piping. Because he's in the basement and. whatnot. They couldn't replicate that.

But. they said the uh. Now this where Ted Rockwell came. back into it again. Again, Ted was. Rickover's technical director, worked in. nuclear energy, had his own company. By. the way, he also gets into interspecies. communication sorts of things. Ted was. the guy who brought Anne Gaiman. So many. of these things that's one of the things. about how many of these things just. intertwine in ways that are almost.

unimaginable. >> I mean, didn't didn't you in the past. >> Didn't what? >> Didn't you communicate with dolphins at. some point? Are you working on that? >> Yeah, that's a whole 'nother story. [laughter] But yeah, we we did work. That's what I call interspecies. communication. Well, the telepathic work. Neptune's helper if we get to that. Um. So So anyway, like I said, we've seen. the pictures, we've talked to them. And. it's yeah, probably real. So we set it.

up. The idea was that they would. recreate. the workshop that. John had in Vancouver. And. so uh. Yeah, he did. And one of the things that. we did is I was physically at Fort. Belvoir at the time. Had a place down. there. Now we're this where working with Cleve. Baxter and and those things. But so we took a bunch of metal samples. cut them in half, put half of them in.

the safe at. Fort Belvoir, and gave the other half. to uh. for John to manipulate. And we were. thinking we can, you know, [clears throat] see if there are. physical structural changes or anything. like that. Now, the problem with John, you know, problem. Yeah, it [clears throat] is. Uh there. there's no single effect. There were so many different things. going on. You had mentioned earlier to.

me that anti-gravity. Well, there were. things that levitated. There was no. doubt about that. Uh the one that I. found really interesting. Uh. People today may not remember how light. bulbs used to work with a filament. >> Yes. >> Well, we had a tape he had. two pieces of wood and a rat-tail file, probably about, you know, this big. across. And it is exposed to this field. and it starts glowing and turns not only.

white hot red uh or, you know, to white. hot. and then drops. Interestingly, they went in A, the. boards weren't burned. B, it was cold to. pick up even though it had just gotten. to the point where that. one of the many sorts of effects uh that. had happened. >> Cold as in room temperature or cold. cold? >> Pick it up. >> Okay.

>> You know, it's molten. >> Yeah. >> one second and it's been pick it up. Um. The other issue was not all of these. things were metal. I mean, the idea was maybe it's magnetic. electromagnetic of some kind and. certainly that's what he was using for. input. And. uh that um. Yeah, as I said, things sometimes. levitate. The one we had uh remember was.

uh. Alex Pizarro was the name I was trying. to think of. Um. he had [clears throat] in there a piece. of PVC. and shreds one end of the PVC. You know. >> But it wouldn't affect a person or. anything organic? >> no idea what it would do. Right. I mean, all we're saying cuz and this is the. problem is no absolutely no control on. any of the. Another one they did, remember. I told you John was looking at Tesla's.

>> bench. >> to see what's on it. We're also. at a poverty level. This is before. people are coming in and funding that we. gave I forget what it was 20K or. something like that. It wasn't a great. amount. Um but. the way he would get he would go to. junkyard and pick stuff up. Well, one of the things he up was. the drive shaft. And they brought it in.

and exposed it to the field and then. took it to BC Hydro. One end of the drive shaft is like. case hardened steel and the other side. is soft as lead. It's the same piece of. metal. And all that happened was that it was. exposed to uh John. >> So it's rearranging the molecules? >> Well, the point is. you have changes in piece of single rod.

It is not the whole thing. And this was true in all cases. But. remember in the PVC one the. PVC evaporated. I mean, it just wasn't there anymore. Now, of course, it wasn't in a sealed. container where you could find if it. vaporized and be picked up. Again that John is. Yeah. There's some personal background. I. won't go into all that. But these things. were definitely happening.

So one of the things that happened in. the PK arena that I mentioned. metal bending on. Jack Hawk had given me some molybdenum. rods. And these had been extruded. And nobody in the metal bending had ever. bent the metal rods. So he gave them to. So I had some So I gave. um. gave them to John and I got it back and. the emphasis is slight S curve uh in it.

How it was just by being exposed to the. field. >> And this is a very durable metal with a. a melting point of almost 5,000°. >> Well, yeah. And we also looked to see. had somebody gripped it through. you don't know. >> Is that the piece you brought today? >> No. >> Okay. >> This is the one that uh John uh sent me. I just happen to bring it. I have a lots. of different one. But look at this. I mean just the the. size and weight of that. And then that's.

just from being exposed to this field. And you can see. >> It's just ruptured. >> Yeah. >> And why and how? Don't know. But again one of so many different. effects that are that you're seeing. This one's obviously clearly metal. Uh there was some that we had wood. There were had others that were just. twisted where you had you know some of. it seemed to be soft and screws through. it and. wood affected sometimes wood unaffected.

Again totally lacking control. >> Did you see it happen in real time? >> Short answer would be no. And what happened was and our deal was. we were going to do a show and tell. I. set it up and went up a number of times. Um. and I brought in a chain. I had two guys. from Los Alamos and three others from. uh in one of the night vision lab and a.

couple. uh. the um. uh. uh Ensco. They were working in the science uh. field. Um so, what happened was um. okay, time for show and tell, right? Show time. I do what everything You get there. early, right? So, >> Yeah. >> I arrived a day early. And. uh the um. they're they're really excited. They. boy, we've got you know, this thing was. just levitating.

So, we've turned it off. Now, you got to. understand, this was terribly. This is a makeshift thing, if you will, and all kinds of stuff uncoordinated way. and whatnot. And so, we I looked at we look at it and. say, "Hey, it's levitating. We just. turned it off. So, everything's the. same.". Saying, "We'll just turn it back on. tomorrow when everybody else arrives.". And well, uh. turn it back on, the power supply burns up.

I mean, literally go By the way, one of. the key things in all of this. was power in. All of the entire. apparatus was being run on one 220. extension cord. >> [snorts]. >> That And as a matter of fact, one of the. naysayers that had been from Lenel. ended up going to jail later for other. reasons, but anyway, um. is the one who uh he says, "Oh, they've. got this stuff. You'll see the room.".

Cuz we had. uh a single room that was a huge. warehouse kind of facility, and this all. was in one little cubicle of it. Well, damned if somebody comes in, and we are able to get into and no, there's no other externally equipment. that's driving energy into this sort of. thing. >> Is one plug 220, maybe 10 amp fuse? >> Yeah, know, like I say, an extend literally running. off an extension cord.

Which uh has burned up and it turned out. they had no spare. But we they spent the. day getting it. Um. By the way, there's some similarities to. this in the ranch. And I know uh. Jack Houck had also worked with John. And that is. you know, this uh these anomalies or. things happen. I think I've mentioned. that when it called a precognitive. sentient phenomenon. Now, this comes. from the ranch. There's uh an it.

that knows not only what's going to. happen, but how we are going to respond. before the incident happens. But it is in control. Don't know what it. is. That's true in the right. We had the. same thing you know, I I hadn't identified I I identified. that after working at the ranch for a. couple years. Uh. much earlier, gentlemen. And this gets into, you know, the. trickster, uh if you will, which appears.

in folklore and that. Uh Loki and. Kokopelli and Pan and etc. The and. >> to want to be observed. >> Yep. >> Mhm. >> Well, but it is you know, it happened. Well, we same we did at the ranch. It. was same running 24/7 photographer. And then things would happen just. outside. The same thing here. You know, Jack had the same thing happen. It would. happen just outside where the cameras.

are are studying them. Um sometimes it would happen above this. the. area we were in in Vancouver. It had a wooden ceiling on it and then. put stuff up there and you know, things. would kind of move around there, too. So, you couldn't define it. We thought. it was a field effect, but we couldn't define the field by any. stretch of imagination. >> So did you grab a new extension cord and. nothing happened? >> Oh, no, no. The The problem was the. power supply that was converting it. Uh. they they finally they found one and we.

got it and no, it didn't happen. Um now I interviewed. the entire team. and five out of the six thought it. really did happen. And the sixth one was. a huge. not [snorts] a skeptic. He was sent. there to debunk it. Uh he's the one who claimed that, you. know, Tom Bearden. Okay. He thought that Tom Bearden had. snuck in. For people who don't know, Tom.

was. working on zero or zero point free. energy and and all of this. >> It's part of the Sparky sweet story. >> But uh somehow he had snuck in and had. set up this system. That was just total. nonsense, sort of thing. The bad news. was. and for reasons unknown, the Lanel. report was classified. Uh. and so then it's all the government's. covering it up. Now Now Now the simpler.

thing would have would have been to say, we came, we saw, nothing happened. End. of transmission. Instead of this. convoluted. theories that uh. we did end up dealing with. Um still in. touch with John, you know, today. Get. emails from him. uh weekly, certainly, if not daily. And um but. never could get under control. And of. course, he you know, he's done any. number of documentaries and things like.

that where you see the effect. Uh. and you can say we've observed something. happened, but can you know, can you kind. of controls of how it goes. And the most perplexing thing again was. the range of effects that we saw. >> Anything else besides. gravity and bending? >> Well, the heat. >> The heat. >> And burning and not burning. And. disintegration of material and.

>> [laughter]. >> you know. >> Do you think that there are zero point. energy projects? >> Well, that's quite different. >> Yeah. >> A different question. >> You brought up Bearden and you had some. You brought up Tom Bearden. >> Yeah. Well, >> [clears throat]. >> Tom was a trip. Knew him pretty well. He told me about. how how Mossad had. invisibility capability and how they.

would sneak into his house and the way. he would know that is they would move. his keys around or something. like that. So, but now here's revered. not with zero point energy but in the. psychotronic community. Um. uh. It was very interesting but the problem. we. I found particularly the scientific. community is he would give these very. officious sounding things and then you.

would find out that certain basic words. he was not using the same definition. We might use gravity for instance that. his form of gravity would be could be. different from. um the way. the science traditionally thinks about. it. Um. Yeah, new new Tom. Well, this goes back to the before. I think he came into the picture. after [snorts] the new mental.

battlefield or something. No, no, no, it. was I know it was before that because. one of the statements that I put in. there. that I thought. you know, in in retrospect I would have. been more circumspect. And that was I said that there were. devices whose lethal capability had been. uh demonstrated. Uh. where I was prevaricating there was that. I really meant there were some insects.

that died as a boat that this wasn't. designed to mean you know, human. However, when you get into the Soviet. research, you know, there were some. where you had uh. uh. fatal experiments. Sure. That one. >> Um you wrote a letter to. I think it was. uh the commanding general of Army. Futures Command? Mhm? The commanding. general of Army Futures? >> The Futures Command, yeah.

>> What. telling him here's what we found, you. should look into it. What What were you. trying to get reopened there? >> Well, I wasn't trying to reopen uh but. I've run into this in several cases. I. thought they ought to know what we did. >> Sure. >> And um I had been contacted previously. but more on the NLP research. And so my. thing to them was just going to be. somebody at least want to know what we. did. You know, some of the stuff is still. available and you know,

um. you probably know Kelleher and uh. I was talking to him recently and. he he says um. uh. uh that we are the immortals. And he's talking about Jacques and Hal. and me and Kit. You know, the you know, well, getting up to but the problem with. many of these things. uh. you know, um. uh. you know, just the information is dying. out, literally.

>> Uh everyone's very suspicious of you and. Hal and Jacques for living forever. We We want to know what deal you made. >> Um. >> Could you quickly tell the story about. the cells, your your your white blood. cells behind the brick wall? Remember you telling that story. somewhere. >> the wall. >> Um. It was at the National Academy was. reviewing some of your work. >> No. >> Remember that? >> In great detail.

>> All right. >> Um this gets the work of Cleve Backster. >> Mhm. >> Um. Cleve was a polygrapher. He actually. designed the system. Well, this just. goes back. in World War II. We had. um. He was in CIC Counter Intelligence. Corps. I had transitioned early as the. development of CIA. Uh as a was a polygrapher and he.

He was very It was a big in astrology by. the way as well, but Um when. [clears throat] he was then initially. living in New York, he had a very basic question. He had a. large plant there. He says, "Well, I. wonder if I pour water in the plant, how. long will it take it to show up in the. leaves?". So, he put his GSR. sensor on that. And whatever happened. But, then he left it on. It just It was.

just running in his apartment and that. And suddenly started noticing every once. It was hooked up to the polygraph. So, it was getting signal every once in. a while you'd see a signal. >> From the plant? >> Yeah. >> Okay. [laughter]. >> Well, ostensibly but the question was. why is this happening? So, finally he. just spun out that there was a. connection between what what going on in.

the environment and the plant. So, he started by doing things like. ripping the plant and you see the thing. on. and then he'd burn the plant and then he. found out that by thinking about burning. or threatening to burn the plant and the. plants responding. He calls this primary. perception. Well, this is another word Ted Ted. Rockwell comes back in in the. introductory point. So,

anyway, what I'm trying to think of what. all the sequences was quite a while ago, but. so, Cleve has now got his shop in San. Diego. and one of the things that he does is he. starts using oral leukocytes. which are white cells from the mouth and. they would use a centrifuge, but I'm. confused here. So, the device was that. we have electrodes. into the oral leukocytes. This thing is. in a.

cage Faraday cage, you know, shielded and all of that. and they would um. uh. they would. how would the cells would respond to we. found out well. uh maybe back up. He had done some work. before that uh on things like uh brine. shrimp. and he had pots there and he would keep. the brine shrimp and at. an undetermined time the shrimp would.

jump into boiling water and kill the. shrimp and sure enough you know, shrimp. are are responding. Uh he also did some interesting work. with yogurts and what not. because there's living organisms in the. yogurt. So, uh next step up was using the oral. leukocytes cuz it's now attached to. a single individual. And their experiment was that you'd have. the donor would come in and then they. would agree to watch a certain TV.

program. It was one where you expect. some sort of violent thing, but you. don't know when or what the event it is. going to be. And sure enough you started. seeing cuz they would tape uh the. program and then put it with the and. you'd see a violent event occurs the. thing starts um. you [snorts] know, reflecting. >> From the Lucasites? >> Yep. >> Okay. >> Our interest uh you got to. remember um.

you know, the Red Brigade and uh General. Dozier was captured. So, we had people. that were on and the question is. you know, can we communicate or can we. start with simple things alive or not. alive? Now, I had in military perspective. looked at this, too. And the idea was. you'll put capsules in or something, you. know, they're transmitted. And the. response was probably not a good idea.

because if it's suspected they'll just. cut until they find it. >> Yeah, that's true. >> Yeah. So, that wasn't a but however. uh. um you know, now looking at it from. externally saying. you know, can we a either communicate or. can we just get an idea of life or So, that was the. genesis of looking at it from military. perspective and what.

Um. >> [laughter]. >> What what happened? Well, I had done the. series Well, I had Cleve under contract. Uh. interesting side story here. I I went. built. uh my own device. And it was. interesting. I took a senior scientist. from night vision lab uh with me out. there and so you know. we're going to No, this is with. permission, so I mean I'm not stealing. anything from him.

And uh we look at it and then it's I. said, "Well, can you build it?" He says, "Yeah, it's it's pretty. straightforward.". And but he says, "Look, I have cut this. much out of the world for me. And you can reorganize things in there, but don't tell me I have to relearn. physics cuz I don't want to hear it.". Pretty straightforward. >> Mhm. >> Honest. Now, he could have screwed me any number. of ways, you know, just one loose wire.

or something, but he didn't. >> Uh and and for what you said, there's a. piece missing and I said, "Well, that's. the piece I'm going to worry about. This. is the consciousness aspect of it.". Um so anyway, we ran a. series of experiments with this. Fast forward a bit. It must be '87 time. frame. Uh. Max Thurman is vice chief of staff of. the army. And.

he um. decides to look into all this weirdness. So, he puts a puts together a scientific. panel from the National Research Council. uh. to evaluate all of these things. I. appeared before him several times. In fact, one of the things that bothered. me is they had a whole series of. behavioral scientists. And I don't know if you know Bob John. from Princeton. >> Mhm. >> Okay. J A H N John, he is the dean Well,

yeah. Then the dean of School of. Engineering at Princeton, who is the. essential figure in all of this because. he had independently replicated you. know, that was doing the remote viewing. experiments and he had a big thing on. psychokinesis and all of that. Impeccable. credentials and whatnot. And we had tried to get. Bob. you know, added to it. You know,

my admonition to the group was you nice. guys, but you know, we're the physical. scientists because that's where the. experimentation is going. Then. they did have Ray Hyman on there if you. know Ray at all. For the audience, a founding member of PsychOps, you know, the. skeptics and whatnot. Um. Oh, well, bit of a side. He came to me. He actually had clearances.

of a no secret, but came and looked at the stuff I had. in the safe. By this time, I'm director. of advanced system concepts for what was. then the Army Laboratory Command. No. longer exists. >> [snorts]. >> But. um. I had some stuff in the safe and able to. show them the Soviet work and all that. And of course then they're asking. experiment, you know, well, how were the. controls on this? I said, do you. understand how we This is from spies. We. are not getting their.

you know, reports or something on it. His comment was, I didn't realize there. was so much. >> [laughter]. >> There's so much. >> But um. So we set the report. This is committee is set up National. Research Council. And I suggested what we take them to. Cleve's lab because that is pretty damn. reliable. By the way, one of the things that. happened I thought was interesting.

was that. as I said, he's a polygrapher. So we set up experiment with me. Um and said, "Okay, I'll. We'll then. What I found was I could beat the. polygraph. Couldn't beat the white cells. >> You couldn't beat those. >> Yeah. Then as I let them screw around a bit, you know, on those personal matters and. things like that.

So that that was really interesting. It. shows the the connection between even. though my white cells are separated in. the little room and shielded, etc. So um. >> And you you were affecting the blood. cells. >> Yeah, well I was I was doing that, you. know, I'm L1, but I I was, you know, you know, trying to see what the limits would be. And so anyway, by the way, back to your. future's command, you know, this is what.

I was trying to solve. We did this. stuff. Will somebody come and look at. least, you know, check the records. Um, so anyway, we set up and the board is going to meet. in San Diego. So I said, "Well, good. thing. We'll bring take them to Cleve. Lab." So what happens is, again, you want to know what's working today, not at work yesterday. So I arrived. several hours early. Well, I've been in. I was already arrived in San Diego, but.

arrive and I donate cells. Just to make sure this thing is up and. and running. And frankly, we forget. about it. And so what happens is the uh. panel arrives and we take two of their. people goes with Steve White, the lab. assistant. And they're going to donate. the cells. The one's go one's donating, one observing. And we take the rest of them to the.

kind of a classroom, basically. And. and we've agreed that Cleve is going to. give the background and history. I'm. going to get get up and say, "By the. way, I've independently replicated this. and here's the. Now, Cleve is one of these people when you. say, "What time is it?" You get the. history of chronometers. And he was going and he was going on and. on and going like, "God, we. I can tell they're getting edgy and. whatnot.".

So, um. finally, it comes my turn to tell them. that the world is not built the way they. think it is. So, I start talking and. about 90 seconds later, they run in the room and says, "What. happened 90 seconds ago?". And I said, "Well, that's when I started. talking to them." And internally, yes, I'm saying telling the National Academy. of Science that you know, their view is wrong is is emotionally. stimulating. >> [laughter]. >> And uh so, anyway, we go over.

and we see I mean, this thing he has. stoppers on it. We're getting you know, 10 to a millivolt, but it is just um By. the way, I've got this tape. >> Oh, you do? >> Oh, I still I am. What happened is that. Ray Hyman is the one who ran over and. looked and ripped it off. Now, what's. interesting is when the report comes. out, not a word on this. >> No. [snorts]. >> Yeah. The only thing that they thought. was useful or potentially useful cuz. they had looked at remote viewing. I.

know they had been. but they had been curtailed. Most of the. class wide stuff was not available to. them in that. And but they had agreed that NLP had. some potentially some some use. But the. rest of the stuff we're doing were just. nonsense. And I say, "On this particular. area, a dozen. >> [clears throat]. >> Yeah. Not not a word about. it happened right in the you know, the. white crow flew right in front of you.". And. >> CIA wasn't interested in this? Was CIA.

interested? >> Well, I mean, I knew care. and that, but these are all. what you find out and this by the way. gets deeply into the UFO area. Well, a lot of a lot more of it's personal. interest. And people say, you know, if you'll. notice certain names keep. >> They do. >> recurring throughout even though some of. us have different views on it, but uh. Yeah, there's a lot of uh interpersonal.

relationships that become key in all of. these things. Um. Well, we were not publishing, you know, reports on this. This is still. what you'd call basic research on there, but we definitely showed the efficacy of. it and a relationship that could be. tailored at a distance between the cells. and to. And again, from the issue where we're. thinking of going, is, you know, is there something we can.

do with foreign diplomats for instance. where we keep some kind of sample. on hand and if something happens, you. pull it out and you know, try to communicate. Again, simple things. like are you live or dead and which. would change a lot of you what your. response would be, you know, >> Sure. >> what are you willing to risk? >> Cuz your cells were 20 miles away, weren't they? >> Well, there is one instance.

it was more like 50. And uh now, I asked Cleve about it and. he says the problem is that you really. probably can't tell because you'd have. to get almost into interstellar. distances. I mean, yeah, uh. you know, the. particles and whatnot. What what's the. distance and because we're dealing with. things and speed and whatnot. Um by By getting back to Chris, uh the. experiment that was done with him. and Don Monroe in a sealed.

unit, and yet he's doing which I think. shows that this isn't electromagnetic. You know, the. consciousness, but this is, you know, we don't understand. a lot more than we do understand in in. these areas. Like I say, that that was what happened. after that is when the hit the fan. back with, you know, when Bert was. forced into retirement and all of that.

So, a lot of it was curtailed, and we. Vipers went to. >> [laughter]. >> other areas. >> Well, speaking of UFOs, um can you talk. about advanced theoretical physics and. what you're what you're doing there? >> Well, you know, uh. had put together a group, well, an interagency group. Our. and my initial hypothesis, I was working.

with another guy who. is kind of. faded out and and doesn't want to be. named, um. but it was somebody who worked at. Lockheed. uh. Skunk Works. Um. the hypothesis was A, Roswell's real, that there is something big going on, and this is something is still emerging, that people want to get the word out.

So, we put the group together, and it. was at the TS/SCI level. Uh literally old boys had to know them. I had almost all of the intelligence. community, uh. the major players, certainly, and the um. aerospace industry, and people who were interested, and got together and we're using BDM. facilities. Interesting, I got to the. Joe Badakh was the B of BDM.

Bert, by the way, in this time, he also. cuz he had when he retired, he went and. became vice president for intelligence. at BDM. So, we had their facilities that. we could use. Um. >> [clears throat]. >> I put it together. Uh this is the early days of FOIA as. well. And one of the things that. you know, surprised people who created. FOIA was the number of requests that.

they got for UFOs. So, that's why I came up with the name. Advanced Nobody's going to ask for. uh. >> You were dodging FOIA? >> files on it. Yeah. Absolutely. And. um. Yeah, it was Well, let's see where this. goes. We had several meetings. Um by the way, one requirement that did. not hold was no records. So, you know, the intent was that there.

wouldn't be, you know, any written. records. Now, eventually, I had. briefings that. uh I used from. on and on. >> Is this declassified this This is. declassified by now, yeah? >> Hm? >> This is declassified? >> It never was classified. >> Never was classified? >> Yeah, like I say, this is This is not. official. >> Right. >> By the way, one of the things that I I. point out, this is according and if you. see with AOSAAP and AATIP and that, most.

of these come from the bottom up. >> Yep. >> It This is not ones where, you know, the. hierarchy says do this and and it comes. down. We'll probably get into some of. the people that were involved, but it. was, um, you know, so with the our assumption. our supposition was if we do this, certainly going to get noticed at some. point, and people. >> Yep. >> come and slap our hands and say, "Don't.

do that.". Uh, which never did happen. >> What was the. when you spun up that group, what were. you trying to find? >> Well, uh, we were still dealing with hard. craft kinds of things that were going. on, and who would be involved, and, you. know, if there was a project. Now, I, eventually, I moved up the food chain. higher and higher, and I did brief or.

interact with. the director or deputy director of all. of those three-letter agencies. And story I tell, one of the most. interesting one, the global agency, and, um, by the way, the answer was. always the same, was we don't do that. And then, uh, but the guy says, "A, we. don't do that. There's no requirements. to even report on it. B, I'll tell you about the ones I saw.". So, here's the guy who's now head of.

agency, lots of resources, has had. personal experience, and he went back. into things that he had seen years. before. He said they were flying around. and doing things I knew we didn't have. the capability for. Uh, but that did not transition to his, um, "So, I'll put together a small group. to go look for it." So, these are the kinds of things that run. counter to the quote legacy program. >> Yep. >> Could they have lied to me?

Yeah, quite possibly. Everybody? Uh, you know, and these weren't like. a week apart going down. People would. call and all of that. This happened over. years. >> So, you didn't believe in a retrieval. program, I guess, until. Grusch and that those groups came. forward, right? >> Until what? >> Till David Grusch. and some of those other guys. Cuz you've. changed a little bit. Yes? >> Uh. this is where I get to a my my data does.

not match. >> Yeah. >> And in fact, as you know, I've dealt. with quite a few of them senior folks in. in that. Have not met Grusch, respect. him and his background and that. Um. the two things just don't go together. >> Yeah. >> And I've told you now this is. the agencies and all. Fast forward a bit, we decide to. transition.

to a formal funded program. So, where's the logical place to go is. SDI. SDI at the time is, you know, the. biggest program in defense. It's 5. billion at the time. Um. kind of uniquely. uh. a meeting is set up with me and I have. an entourage going in and meet with uh.

uh General Abramson who's three-star. commander of SDI. And um my experience was quite. different. And we walked in. and introduced who's the agencies. involved and all of that. And so, I start UFO 101. And he goes, "Wait, wait, wait. Who are you guys. really?". I mean, this to me is like a guy.

deer caught in the headlights. And I. don't think he was faking. Could have been. If it was, it was quite. an act. Um. went around the room in different. agencies. NSA was one that. the guy. gave us stuff and. the thing that stunned me there was we. were giving him the Soviet data. and he says, "Where did you get that?". And he was like, he did not understand.

our intercept capability. That got scary. because it was in, you know, "Can they. do that?" And I said, "Yeah, we. think they're pretty good at it, you. know.". Um. That's where this goes on hour or two. We finally get to the end and I say, you. know, we'd like to. get blessing and. our formal program and goes, "I can't touch this.". He says, "If I get caught doing this,

I will, you know, just lose all. credibility in front." So, the point. was, I don't believe In fact, he went on. to say, "Look, you got my attention. I'm. an old fighter pilot and you got my. attention. and we are soon going to be monitoring. more of space than has ever been done. before. If you can tell me what to look. for, I'm willing to put some algorithms in, but if I get caught doing this and.

This is where, you know, the. people who else I just do not understand. the Pentagon. In fact, some of the key people and I. told them, "Take a decade off and go. learn how the system works cuz it is. terribly complex. It is terribly. competitive and that includes in the. black world as well as the white world.". And [snorts] everybody, like I said, one. of my favorite comments was, "I'm going. to go find the money." When I was. working in the building.

and you go. there are gnomes out there with pots of. gold or something that you go what means. you're going to steal it from somebody. else's program or find it after. reprogram the funds. And that occurs in the black world just. as it as it does in the white world. Now, he did lose a big in dollars. >> He did? >> in in funding, but that's from other but. the point was his point was well, people. because his program was so big and. visible.

that you know, everybody looking for. money well, where do you look cuz people. who have money they're the banks. And he did and um. that was shortly after that I got a very. uh an. I am convinced unrelated call that says. uh. we we want you to move to a new. assignment. and um. it was one you had to be a colonel and. breathe and I said you got to be. me.

I am running the. high Ohio's high-tech stuff in the. military and you want me to go to what? And um. Yeah. Where General Stillwell came back into. the program because uh. it was he was a supporter and we didn't. cover that this. he had intervened before. Um another side story but how we how I. ended up in INSCOM actually and before. that.

was that uh it was the new mental. battlefield article had come out. I had attended a couple of conferences. in Washington area on weird stuff and. all that and there was a colonel's wife. who was running one of them Jean Eag and. she was friends with the uh General. Stillwell's. uh wife. Stillwell is now retired four-star who's. the number two guy in the Pentagon.

So, what happens was they a meeting gets. up and remember I'm a munchkin down in. literally in the bowels of the Pentagon. So, a meeting is set up for I'm because. of new military battle films supposed to. go meet with him. So, about 12:30 this particular day up. now what's unique here. you know, munchkins do not go see SecDef. and Deputy Sec. without a head bobber. you know, flag officers who are going.

that didn't happen. That was one-on-one. me and and him. >> Were you nervous about what does the. general want? Or you knew what he. wanted. >> This was just a generic come in and talk. to him and but this had been set up. again through the wives and and all of. that. So, anyway, I went up and we had a very. interesting conversation. He says, "Well, who do you work for?" And so on. and so General Chappie and he was the. Inspector General and blah blah. Okay, well but this is really.

interesting. So, thank you and I left. and I said, "Well, that was. interesting.". I go back down to my office about 1:00. and. about 4:15 the Chief of Staff of the IG. comes in and says, "Tomorrow morning you. don't work here anymore.". >> That was that? >> Yeah, they moved me. >> So, you had to take that assignment. You. couldn't refuse it. >> Well, I would I. >> [laughter]. >> Oh, the. another war story uh.

a friend of mine. who had been at who had worked at the. military personnel center and I bumped. into him in the Pentagon. one day and he's looking he's this is. years later. He says, "You know, I had to keep your file in my desk. drawer cuz we had nowhere. >> [laughter]. >> where to put it.". >> Right. >> You know. And like I said, the promotion thing. this I got handed from the time yeah, I. made major.

Yeah. On I was never assigned by the system. again. until they pissed me off and I said. thanks and then Los Alamos came along. >> Um. >> And then NIDS came along. Can you. >> Well, that's. two iterations later. That's after Los. Alamos and. >> So, can you talk about that that. Sunday morning in your kitchen? I think. Hal Hal was there, Jacques was there and. you get a phone call from Bob. >> Well, that's another.

coincidence if you will. You know, I was working at Los Alamos. I lived in. Santa Fe. I had a meeting with a number of people. and Jacques and Hal were two of them. I. forget who all was there. But, um. It's Sunday morning, so we're getting. ready to take people back to Albuquerque. for the flights and the phone rings and. it's I I'm Bob Bigelow. I've heard about. you. Are there any areas of that might. be of interest?

Um, rest as they say is kind of as a. matter of fact there was a guy who did. get funded. He was there Ferris Williams. has since died. Uh, but um. Who got an independent you know, project. Now, this is before NIDS and. and all of that. In fact, we had he he. came over and we went to the Santa Fe. Institute. Uh, looked at it. He said maybe you want. to send well, Murray Gell-Mann is kind.

of the guy at Santa Fe Institute. This. is chaos theory that they're working. And I had other friends who were. supportive who. works with them. Um. It's I probably not a good fit and then. he decided well, well he would create. NIDS, but he wanted to be in Las Vegas, and that's what brought me here. >> What what turned uh. Bob on to Skinwalker Ranch? How did he.

learn about that? >> There were some articles as far as I. know, there were some articles that were. published probably in Deseret News. And about Shermans and the ranch and. that. Exactly how he made contact, I. don't know. Um I was with him the day. that he physically bought the ranch. though, and uh. first one to spend the night. >> You were? >> the first. again of the NIDS people. I mean, obviously Terry and Gwen were uh.

I was staying there. And it is. a very very strange place. And no doubt. about that. I mean, the incidents that. happened. um. Having said that, I'm a bit of a. digression and you. um. um. Oh. Lost lost a bubble there a minute. >> That's right. >> Oh. >> I have plenty more plenty more. questions. >> Yeah. >> That first night, I think you said. nothing happened.

>> Mhm. >> Nothing happened the first night. >> Nothing unique happened, no. >> But eventually you saw some things. there? >> I. You know, this is one of the questions. that comes up. Uh by the way, it translates to. uh. Chris as well. One of the things I asked. him is it the place or is it the person? >> I was going to ask you that. >> And we have uh you know, lots of strange things have happened. around me.

Um but as far as uh. uh. you know, you know, I have seen some things and. and all that, but they had tend to be I. tend to be more of a catalyst if you. will. And Jesse Ventura is who I was thinking. of. >> That's right. >> That he came in and interviewed me and. um. was interested and he said, "Well, can I go up there?" And I said, "No, A, probably not, but B, you'd probably be. bored. Because the problem is that.

these. amazing incidents have happened, but. it's not like every night, you know, they go out, oh, "Tonight we're going to. have XYZ happen." Uh contrary to the. program. One of the reasons they shoot. rockets is because they got, you know, an an incident uh that uh something to. to photograph. Um. but. uh. yeah, but some of the things that did. happen is just absolutely beyond belief.

>> For example, is this a. baby goat or is it a baby calf? >> Well, uh calf is one. Uh what that. particular incident. is that they um. uh Terry's got at the ranch, you know, Terry stayed on during calving calving. season and he walks out, he goes out and. people are familiar with the ranch, now, perfectly flat, an escarpment to the. north and the trees further on. Finds a newborn calf and tags it and.

weighs it and tags it to identify it to. the mother. Drives across the again wide open field, 10:00, bright sunny day, etc. And he. finds another newborn calf and he tags. it and weighs it and he comes back, calf. one's dead. Mother's going out of his. mind. There's a huge amount of stuff is just. missing. >> From the animal? >> Yeah, it's been eviscerated, exsanguinated. and you know, ear the where the tag was.

was cut off, looked like a laser cut and. all of that. Um. The science board looked at we had Terry. come in well we George O'Net was working. with and I was a DMV and flowing up that. day. We had Terry secure the sign got. our vet on site and and all of that. And. people said well in the exanguination of. the blood went into the ground.

Um. I had suggested him they go to nearby. slaughterhouse get blood and come back. and poured it on the ground and weeks. later you would say you know blood was. poured on the ground here. So there's no. way that this went. The science board SAB that as you know. world class sorts of folks. and Hal Puthoff and Kit and.

all of them are involved and they're on. the. It's on the website with the worm. was that whatever happened didn't happen. there. >> Wow. >> Now how do you explain that? Again we. know the. in our reality we know the elapsed time. 45 minutes ish bright sunny day. We. looked at all of the possibilities of. how predators kill and that none of them. do anything like this.

>> You had cameras on there yet? >> Hm? >> You had cameras yet? >> Not in that area no. >> Okay. >> No. And. now I've got to say Brandon of course. has put in a lot more sensors and doing. it 24/7 far more we did. Not exactly sure of the sequencing on. that cuz we did have cameras that were. facing near what they now call the. command center looking to the west. And.

there was one of the most interesting. incidents to me. You got. you know, two cameras here, two cameras. in front of it. So, the ones in front uh. you can see. Uh, you have cameras that are up about. 20 ft high, comes down about half a roll. of duct tape holding them in, PVC going. back into, you know, they're recording. So, you know, when the recording then.

what happens is in the front cameras. the wires are pulled loose up at the. top. You come down, the PVC is pulled out. There's about 3-ft chunk of wire that's. just missing. uh from this. Now, what was really interesting about. it, this was kind of early evening. and it just happens that the cattle. at that time were right around the post. And we know that if anybody approaches.

the cattle, they would scatter. Nothing had happened. The other thing is. this camera that's looking straight at. it and we have a second and third. time-lapse photography on it. Nothing. Now, how did all of this stuff happen. and not get recorded? >> Cuz it doesn't want to be recorded. >> Well, like I say, when it's a very, very strange place and. they have had.

um you know, many more. incidents. But it's not like it's a daily thing. It's not like you can go out and uh uh. Uh, Brandon, now when if you go up, you. have to sign literally life releases and. all of that to. uh go on. I think those people are. I think the staff you know, people who. work for him are, are. really good. >> You mentioned something about. precognitive.

>> Mhm. >> with the ranch. Um, does that mean that. the future exists and can be read, or. does that mean that they can sense your. intent? >> But, two different questions. When you say they. >> I don't know, it. >> not, yeah. Well, I that's why I use the. it and they have no idea how to find it. Uh, when you're getting to theoretical. aspects, well. the. Is it possible that the past, present, and future are all concurrent?

So, it's not a, you know, time frame. And And it gets into almost. imponderable. I I actually used the blood one because. it seemed to know. that we would draw the blood and you. know, before this sort of thing would be. a become another conundrum. Uh, yeah. Uh, Yeah, more and more possibilities that. just get to be terribly, terribly.

complex and hard to. the issue of what we do see in this and. I think all of these phenomena. are that the. um, you know, our concept of time is wrong. as we know it. That it's as we. experience it as opposed to. you know, what time may or may not be. >> Cuz there's intent with these actions. >> Yeah. >> But we don't know what it wants.

She seems to want to mess with us. >> Well, but you mentioned something I. think is bigger and that's issue of. intent in all of these areas. What's the. for people who become psychic or work. with these things? Intention seems to impact and maybe. precipitate reality. But then how can how can that in the. future if it's happening concurrently? >> That's interesting. Any hitchhiker effect with you and some.

of the stuff? >> Uh, you've seen my slide, I guess, on. >> I have. >> And I thought I. I think that's bigger. The answer for me. is no. Uh, with others, so that just so what. people know what we're talking about, you know, that. Um, there are. many reports of people who have left the. ranch and started having strange. experiences and the hitchhiker.

specifically refers to. um. uh, beings or entities or something that as. well as a number of psychic kinds of. events have happened. I do know that. many of them happen. Uh, the slide that I use and I think. this gets to be. problematic when you get to how are you. going to study this, particularly from a. government's perspective. We started on. this, I don't think governments.

I don't see how they can be involved. with these sorts of thing. It's one thing. for you to study flying saucers, which. is even orbs and that, to study. werewolves. uh, is something quite different. And the. werewolf story is real. The individual may choose to come. forward. I I have met him. >> You've met the werewolf? >> No, I met the person. >> You met the person. >> who.

uh, it was a very senior individual. uh, living in the Washington area who had. visited the ranch and. like looked out and standing on hind. legs in the backyard. with red eyes is the werewolf. And they go running off on you know bang. bang. How do you you know I think from a. political perspective they would be. suicide to go in and. enough to say I want to spend money to.

study UFOs and hard widgets and now. we're making the case that's even. permissible and it's one of the. advantages that's come forward is making. it you know permissible to you know to. study these things but to now say I'm. also going to sell the whole field of. cryptozoology. Um column for instance. talks about being in the citizen. um.

now skinwalkers in the Pentagon but. talks about a dinosaur small but a. dinosaur walking by and that and you've. seen in the program that the whole dire. wolf thing things that uh. ex you know have been extinct for 10,000. years and uh. and so how do you. justify or should is this the proper. role for government I see I think this. is where you know governments.

kind of got to ball ball this is not. what governments are to govern and they. are to do certain specific tasks and. that. One of the issues that you brought. up in another broadcast. that has to do with the Department of. Defense and the thing is this. I think it's the wrong question and also. what you have to remember. is it is Department of Defense. By the. way I'm guilty in this too in my UFO. blog I said there are two two major.

issues one was defense and the other was. air safety. but the issue of you know saying now. advanced technology yeah I can can make. that's a sort of case. Um do. the plus side. is again this has understanding how. governments work. Actually DOD would. find this great because this is how you. justify you know you know we used to. you know hypothesize this Soviet days.

you know the. what's the what's the Soviet threat and. all that. You're always projecting of. threats. Well if this is a threat in a. way that's good because that can justify. funding. >> Yep. You need a boogeyman. >> Yeah always. we used to we used to hypothesize what. we call FST-3. which was future Soviet tank 3. Now. future Soviet tank 1 turned out to be. the T-90. >> Mhm. >> You know they they did that. But if you.

looked at the capabilities that we were. giving to two and three which means I. need more money to do more research and. maybe they can do that. I mean that. never-ending cycle. But for them to say they wanted now of. course. that's what they do they Department of. Defense is supposed to defend from. threats. So we define basically. everything as a threat. >> Is that why the Air Force was at the. ranch? >> I don't believe they were.

>> I thought they were there for 4 years. You don't think so? >> Air Force? >> Yeah. >> No. you don't take it but. they used to get into interservice. rivalry but I found them. the most difficult to work with. Um. >> On this topic for sure. >> Yeah no no. they would classify the words. electromagnetic. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah they don't want to I ran into some. of this between Kirtland and Los Alamos.

and whatnot. Um. >> The infamous Kirtland. >> Yeah not. uh. Yeah. And. But again, I said but the well, the. problem one of the things I think is. going to happen with Arrow. uh for instance, is. my experience in relation I I. personally had survived a lot of weird. things and all of that and actually and. well, but eventually got shown the door.

>> Yeah. >> as well. Uh this is not what you'd call career. enhancing. >> No. >> I mean, if you're going to move up any. of these systems, there are certain. things you're supposed to do in gates. and whatnot. Uh this is not one of them. >> You mentioned about they don't want to. fund werewolves. Is this a naming. problem? You know, UFOs no, UAPs yes. >> No. >> It's. >> Uh UAPs change it and it does. extrapolate a bit. in this broader phenomena.

The one you brought up with the Jeremy. on underwater, for instance, and. hopefully get Tim Gallaudet in uh talk. about, you know, the underwater aspects. of this, which you we we've known. forever. Um but. um. Yeah, the name fits better. UFOs did. come with baggage, so no doubt about. that. Uh because objects were all. flying, but and the you know, the.

downside though. is you broaden that too much and I think. Blue ran into this with uh funding in. AATIP where because they were trying to. do an unclassified map and people say, "I do advanced threats.". >> Sure. Sure. >> yeah. And again, this gets back to not. understanding the it's the funding. cycles are absolutely vicious. >> Before I get into uh.

death and consciousness, I just wanted. to remind us that you wanted to read a. passage from your book at some point. So, don't let me forget. >> Well, okay. We can. >> Unless you want Unless you want to fire. it off now. >> Well, what what is well. It is In the. end, well, by the way, the first line. that I wrote in the book is UFOs are. real. So, that's the starting point. It. says. And And it is clear the universe is far. more complex than we ever imagined. We're not close to solving the enigmas.

posed by UFOs. Rather, we're still on the front end of. defining the fundamental issues and. boundaries. And so, this thing notion that we're. going to get. quick answers or something. >> No. >> Or that there is I guess the one thing I. would disagree with in uh. uh the secret Skinwalker Ranch is the. secret. And I would make it secrets. I mean, it's not that simple, whatever.

Look, cuz there are so many different. things going on there and in other. places as well. >> I guess we're part of that same. consciousness that whatever's doing. weird things at the ranch, we're all part of that. It's Again, it. seems like a dark force. >> Well, is it dark? Um. What is terribly. difficult to contemplate is the notion. of that everything is one.

That you and I are not separate. And I. think the one of the greatest illusions. is the illusion of separation. But, it's very hard to contemplate. how we can be the same and yet. different. And. I heard you mention the other one, you. know, in the war. Uh. I'm dealing with some folks uh young. ladies now who are developing a program. that they hope to raise consciousness in. general population.

And how you explain this in term and it. is terribly. almost incomprehensible to begin with. This is is one of the reasons I things I. like about. Eben Alexander's books on it is he talks. about these levels of complexity and on. and impossible for us. But if we are all one, you take Larry. Dossey's, you know, you know, not non-local reality and come.

it certainly things like war make. absolutely no sense whatever. And you hear this, you know, you're by. doing bad things you're harming yourself. is just hard to rectify from the. physical perspective that we. live in today. >> That's. >> I would also mention that if you look at. the Greek but one of our problems that. they say the answer is love.

You know, it's kind of what does that. mean? Is it that Greeks had 12 different. words for various forms of love. So, you know, that's not a catchall that's. going to. be useful. >> No. Um tell me about that eighth night when. you have you were in a tent in Siberia. for a bunch of nights. Night number eight was weird. >> Well, actually one of we had been. well, no, we were in Mongolia and near.

the Siberian border. We had been up. right on the where we were chasing. reindeer shaman. Now, they've dealt with shamans all over. the world. >> What's a reindeer shaman? >> Well, they're the people that herd. reindeers. And I mean, like we have cattle, they. have reindeer. >> Oh, I thought it was something they. turned into reindeers at night or. something. >> no, no, no, no, they the people live. with. reindeer.

Um, very unique area. We had. the backstory here. We flew to. Ulaanbaatar, which was interesting. You. fly into Genghis Khan Airport and stayed. at Genghis Khan Hotel and etc. Then we. flew. >> I didn't know that. >> uh Ulaanbaatar to um. Mörön. uh. which is a small city uh west By the. way, Mongolia is a big place. Uh I'm going to say three times the size. of France and that. Uh then we got in a.

Land Rover and drove north for about on. a road for about an hour, paved road. All of a sudden turned left and drove. into the mountain. It was like driving. into the Rockies without a road. And we. we did that for uh kind of an a number. of days. Uh this particular incident. we had driven uh cross country. We were. living uh at small tent, you know. You.

And the point is we could turn it every. day upside down, shake it out, and clear. it. No, no, no, pop up. Uh there were uh. three tents. Uh my wife and I were in. one. The driver uh and guides uh had the. others. Um. a whole bunch of other stuff that I'm. trying to fit into this. whole trip. It was. just an an amazing uh experience.

Uh so anyway, we uh this particular we. had done. I have to look up the shaman's name that. had been with uh doing a healing uh. thing. We had just come back. We had gone. >> Sha- Shaman Ball? >> No, Bold is is a different one. >> Okay. >> Uh here's one that we're we're the thing. precipitates out. It [laughter] was rolling I almost. brought that along. I I do have these.

things. I keep them in the safe because. they they tend to disappear if you don't. have them. >> Uh. ball we had seen going in. See, then we. had stopped and we had gone. on horseback. Uh. the trucks couldn't go any farther. We. were up uh we went in 2 days 2 days into. the island right on Now, the point here. is in Siberia they don't even know where. the border is. Okay, this is [laughter]. >> remote. We're talking really remote.

remote areas. But um we had come back. and we were uh sleeping. on the Sasko River. And. uh like I say, my wife and I were on and. we have. you know, bedding mats on. uh on there. Um. wake up the next morning, lying between. the two mats is a 50 p a Australian. coin. >> You didn't bring that in?

>> No. No. >> [laughter]. >> But. and I don't believe any people went in. the night and threw one in or something. like that. You're up on like I say, near. near Siberia and here appears a 50 p. Australian coin. >> What do you think that meant? >> It meant there was a 50 p Australian. coin and I have no idea how it showed up. there. Uh. >> What were you doing out in the. wilderness? What were you looking for?

>> Uh. well, the reindeer shaman. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And my. I don't know if we're going to get into. it. My wife has dealt daily with. ayahuasca. We have dealt with shamans. all over the world. This was a trip that was afforded us. Again, we're the only. people the only foreigners that are. involved. And um. had a guide who knew where they were. Now, you have to know where they are.

because they they follow the reindeer. The reindeer going. And this it was getting warm and one of. the problems was that they were go up. and lie down on the glaciers. There are. small glaciers all over the place. We. walked over them and that. Um. and um. Yeah, we had to set up several. ceremonies that were going to It was. very interesting. This is where a UFO. connection comes in. Um.

we got up there. And. they live in like teepees that are all. separate. By the way, one of the things. the Chinese have done is they get. solar panels and things so you get a. little bit of electricity and whatnot. It was interesting that they tended to. be staying in their. individual teepees. And I'm walking by one. and I hear somebody speaking English.

That's weird. So, go in I found out a. woman. Well, she's native. She lives there. She used to live in Colorado. But had. been there long enough. So, scared the crap it turns out it scared. the crap out of our guide because they. thought she was a witch and could. bewitch them and and whatnot. >> What why did they think that? Cuz. >> the famous part of the folklore.

>> Okay. >> And why you know, you're. I know it's the why files, but. >> [laughter]. >> why just apply in in some of these. cases. Uh so anyway, uh I started talking to. her and I asked her about UFOs and she. told me a whole story about how this. valley used to be kind of an alleyway. and you know, they would see them on a. consistent basis. Now, this is an area. that at. you know.

We're we're there late late summer. But. gets sealed off. I mean, once you're in, you're you're there for the duration. Kind of like in Antarctica or something, but you don't travel in and and out. Uh. in fact, it was interesting cuz I'd. asked her why. you lived in Colorado and you're now. [laughter]. you know, living here full-time and. Yeah, yeah, they've given up on Western. society and that, but did uh say no,

there was a period uh in which there. were lots of UFOs coming to the valley. and they would see them in. kind of a routine matter. >> Now, were they craft or orbs? >> Oh, these were these were craft as the. things that they would see, yeah. >> Wow. >> way, you know, well, I think you hit on. one of the things I mentioned earlier is. what what you mean by UFO. >> Right. >> And addition of orbs is, you know, fairly new. wrinkle to the question of whether you.

should and. it gets into consciousness and orbs and. and all of that. But no, this was a. traditional craft. Now, one of the. things that heard you and Jeremy. mentioning it was what's happened over. time. is that you see why you see different. ones and different kinds of things and. going back in the 1800s with air. airships. >> Yep. >> literally and people dropping anchors. and talking and all of that. and uh yeah, that does seem to want to.

put this I think remote to or. reverts to this issue of, you know, consciousness. Where is our. consciousness. as to, you know, what it is. And in my view, what it seems to do is stay a step ahead. of where we are, but not beyond. comprehension. >> Right. Like orbs is the newest thing, but in another generation could be. something different. >> Yeah.

>> Um so you were looking for shaman. I've. heard you say you've tried ayahuasca and. you're not a fan of it. >> Yeah. >> What did you see when you were in there? >> Oh, psychedelics are absolutely brilliant. There is no doubt. Um. >> Can confirm. >> Hm? >> I can confirm that. >> Oh, okay. Um. Well, we have dealt with ayahuasca. Are. you familiar with Santo Daime? >> Mhm. >> The Santo Daime is a religion based on.

it and use ayahuasca is the substance. that's going with it. Uh we may get down. there. We did in Curitiba. uh in southern Brazil as well. Most of. us have offices in the Amazon uh in. Iquitos and have also been in Ecuador. First of all, this is never going to. become, you know, a recreational drug. >> No. >> The side effects that come along.

uh. are significant, >> [laughter]. >> to put it politely. Um. and you also there's a my wife Victoria. has learned how to work with this. And. it suggests the first few times that uh. that you, you know, are mostly you. Golly, look at this, you know, the. bright things and all of that. Uh. but um. what's most interesting with her and.

this is mostly second and what would. happen by the way of these ceremonies is. that I would normally I've only tried a. couple times years ago once another time. was Santo Daime in Brazil. Um. but being the one who was not drug. drugged, I would run all those recorders. cuz I had the manual dexterity left to. uh to function with it. Um I can say. that in my view psychopharmacology does. not address the issues that's involved.

I have seen people take small amounts. and have transformational experiences. I've seen them take huge amounts and. have no effect whatsoever. Gets back to. intention and preparation. I do think that if you're going to do it. by the way the word of caution out there. really do if you're going to do this. know the shaman or with whom you're. working because. >> [clears throat]. >> uh. and particularly as this has gotten.

popular that there are some less than. scrupulous folks particularly for women. uh being in there cuz the like. but uh you really do need having said. that and I do see there are now talking. about someone PTSD you know some. research going into it. Um you know. Shawn and them talk about uh using. Ibogaine. Um that surprised me a bit but it's. under controlled conditions the stuff.

from Africa. that shit'll kill you if. >> Oh yeah. >> if you're not careful. And the one of. the problems with all of these are. there's no quality control and I had. found that each shaman kind of has their. own recipe. and they kind of put stuff together and. they look at well of and the same with. dosage. They look at you and say, "Well, here's the amount you need." And uh. you know, given. Um.

>> Yeah, I would recommend going to like. Elysium or with a doctor. >> Yeah. Well, yeah, this not to be taken lightly. But, I do think there are effects that uh. you know, and PTSD uh who was it? This was life. Uh she was there uh with. the guys we do we do with around. Wheelock. He was known as the gringo. shaman. uh down in Iquitos. Interestingly, one. of the few that have not jacked up.

prices and all that as it be as become. uh better known. Um. You know, I was going to tell you of Victoria's. experience. The most extreme she had a. world that goes through and was. recognized and whatnot. The most amazing thing though was not on. drugs, but at home here in Vegas, and they came here. >> Who she saw in the DMT world came to.

Vegas? >> Yeah. Well, we're. >> Right, wherever. >> Yeah, this is a mental state. >> What did she see? >> Well, just that you know, said that they were coming apparently. asking for help and um. but again, this is a mental thing. This. is not a physical being showing up uh. and showing there. Um. Yeah, by the way, a most unusual thing that I.

saw we were at uh you know, Candomblé? >> Mhm. >> Okay, these are African. uh. the voodoo ceremonies and all that. And we had gone we've gone several, but. uh. there you Umbanda and and Candomblé are. a couple of these are from West Africa. that came over. We were, um, in, uh, Curitiba, Brazil and went to a. Candomblé ceremony. No drugs.

And they started out. Now, there's. about, in this case, there were about 10. foreigners, uh, there there Westerner. And. there'll be 200 people who were there. who attended these ceremonies all of all. the time. And so they said, uh, there was a. priestess there, "Does anybody want your. Well, Victoria always volunteers. She. runs down and like. and this woman goes, she's going down. and doing the. and boom,

this. Uh, we're in the possession now, okay? Real, full-scale. possession. >> Your wife? >> Yeah. And all of a sudden, uh, she's out on. the floor spinning. We got photos, uh, of this. And she's spinning. Now, these. are people who are used to seeing. possession. and not with gringos, you know. >> Did you expect that? How does the curdle not show up in. >> Well, we didn't. Uh, as a matter of. fact, I'm going to have Well, I was. taking pictures and that guy grabs me.

and says, "Are you a reporter?". And I said, "No, that's my wife. They. know. she'll be okay.". >> Okay. >> Yeah. And her. description of it is something allowing. this entity enter bodies to experience. whatever. Uh, she has no idea of what went on. during that period, but it was kind of. okay, but it was, um, really dramatic. >> So, she doesn't remember seeing anything. in there?

>> No, no, no, no. This is. I think allowing them to experience. human thing temporarily. Now, we've had. other We were in uh, probably don't know Victoria uh. Brazil. I was down um. talking [snorts] this gets into the. least area and I was been brought down. talking to the government so their. military police. and had looked up and she had found a. Buddhist ceremony in Umbanda ceremony in.

Victoria and we um. uh convinced our guide had a amazing guy. with us who was a special assistant to. the governor. happened to have had a data imagery in. that and I also had a police military. police major. So, we're going into the favela. with you know. So, to say we were greeted with. skepticism. >> [laughter].

>> I don't know. true. Um. So, anyway, so we go in next thing you. know, who are you? Two. Americans you know, kind of weird and. they've heard about them and all that. So, they let us in and then the ceremony. starts and it goes on for several hours. and um. so they're going to take a break. This is mid. now getting later afternoon so our our. guide is going to have got to leave. This I'll leave and go and I'll come.

back and pick you up. And they came to Victoria and said don't. know you can't leave. And it turns out you know, here are. people we've never seen before who. recognize her. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And we've had that before and. there we've had this in. uh Rio too in the ceremony with. saying you know, here's the goddess to. call and all of that pretty you say. unusual circumstance you know, this is.

yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is there any connection with the DMT. world and NDEs? >> Uh-huh. >> Well, is there any connection? Um. there are those who think that DMT is a. Understand dimethyltryptamine. is the precipitating agent. It is not. the thing. Now, it allows. access to the thing. I. I would equate it to more like it's turn. turning on the set.

>> Mhm. >> You know, and. the stuff is you're now. accessing that channel, if you will. Uh. NDEs. There are folks who think that you can. get a spontaneous release of of DMT or. something. Uh. Mary Neal talked about it. She goes, "No, does not believe that to be the. case." That is that we're spontaneously. generating it and that.

cuz that gives you the potential for. saying we're talking about. hallucinations. Um. But like I say, her first case is one in. the precognitive years in advance and. you know, the uh some. Um. In general, I. I don't want to put in anything that. suggests that we're dealing with. hallucination cuz that's not the issue. Uh. now, people interpret these things in.

very well various ways. Um The only thing I said I I was the. president of IONS for a long time. And we had no staff whatsoever, so. letters would come in. I would answer them. And one of them. was, "Well, I wasn't close to death, but. I was out of body. I had this. I had. that." And whatnot. And you also with NDEs, most of them. are spontaneous and you have no idea of.

whether people are physically close to. death or not. I use Mary Neal's case. because underwater for 30 35 minutes, there's no doubt that we had lost. physical capability. I've heard this. from a number of others. However, most. of the cases are spontaneous outside. accidents, illness, or something like. this. So, they're not instrumented. Um. Yeah, the uh.

uh Pam um. Oh, I'm blanking on name. There is a Oh, Pam Reynolds is the name is the most. probably most famous case in this, but. she's not alone. And this is a case in. which a a young woman had a brain. aneurysm deep in the brain. Uh had some small children and was doing. a very risky operation. Survival 50/50. Wouldn't have done it except for young.

and whatnot. And the point here was that they had. stopped the brain Well, they had to they. drained the blood out of the body, but. they had the stethoscope on, so they're. firing electrical charge in measuring. the cortical electricity of the brain. You have sensation of heart, sensation. of breathing, sensation of cortical. electric activity of the brain. By medical definition, this is not near.

death. This is death itself. And talks about a number of things. She's one out of the room. The big one was. complaining. They were playing Hotel California, which she thought was inappropriate. You. can check in, but you can never check. out. >> Right. >> And but awareness of. you know, what everybody was doing at. that time. Uh and then goes off and meets with all.

this it's like the one with Marsha as. the original, you know, awareness at the. location, but then going off into others. and again in different time-space. dimensions as as we know it. Uh, there are a few others. There was a Parva. There was a Dr. Parva who was a. anesthesiologist. who similarly had instrumented death. where you can, you know, confirm, you know, what their physical.

state is at the time. And so, therefore, you cannot attribute. it to hallucination only, but I think. when you get a transference of. information. that, uh, you know, proves out proves to be. accurate. Uh, you know, Bruce Greyson uh, cuz. Bruce said, I recommend his book After. uh, is one of the key ones. Bruce is a good. friend, but he talks about you and it. what got him going was psychiatrist in. the hospital in University of Virginia.

uh, going down the hall and talking to. people and then the person say, "Oh, you. talked to and you're the one with a" He. talks about being a spot on his tie and. all of that. So, you get, you know, externally. verifiable information that there's not. any normal means of that being. transferred. >> Uh, my dad had one when during an. operation and he knew what was going on.

Um, how how about shared death. experiences? Have you Have you looked. into those? >> Oh, you cannot. Let me digress just a. bit, but but this has to do with the. progression. of NDEs. As I say, we came into it, um, uh, well, IONS was formed late late '70s. Uh, we're talking about near death. and we would, frankly, and I have never. would have, uh, considered having.

mediums or things like that involved in. the whole after-death communication. Um, they're now the rock stars, uh, at at the conferences and whatnot. Uh, so you have had kind of a. progression from NDEs, you know, which. is a moment of shared death experiences. is one where there's multiple people not. there dying, but that are sharing the. experience and some of them continue on. and the humans and they talk about.

things like physical changes that take. place with the shapes of the room and. like that. Um, another one that's. getting, uh, terminal lucidity is an. issue that's, uh, now arising and you. can sometimes get shared death. experiences where people who have been. mentally incapacitated for a long period. of time shortly before death start. talking to relatives and seeing, uh, entity. >> Even when even when their brain is.

diseased, like from Alzheimer's or. something, they're they're lucid. >> Yep. And. like I said, this is a field that's, uh, sort of evolving. So you have instant. near death communication or near death. studies which is is this real kind of. thing. This and numbers and these cases are in. the millions. I mean, we're in. >> Yeah. >> you know. Um, I was surprised that, uh, you know, flying on traveling, you know, quite a. bit and you talk to people and you know,

and how many people say, you get this gets back to all was there, so it's a matter of awareness and. acceptability. that, you know, it's okay to talk about. these things and, you know, an openness. of it. Um, you know, at the time. go then then any number of other movies. and TV programs now become kind of. uh, sta- you know, standard uh, issue. things, but uh,

>> Do you talk about this stuff with with. Bob Bigelow at all? I know that he's. very, very into the field. >> Oh, what? >> Bob Bigelow and. >> Uh, Bob. >> I specifically near-death experiences. And we had Jeffrey Mishlove in here talk. who won uh, one of Bob's awards. >> Yeah, no, no, I'm I of course I know. Jeff. Known Jeff since his agency lived.

here and cross town. Um, well, Jeff had an advantage over. everybody because he had been running. uh, Thinking Aloud and now New Thinking. Aloud. So, he had decades. >> Yeah. >> with the. you know, just highest quality uh, people that he could acquire. Um,

not quite sure. I. Some of that would get into personal. stuff with him that. I think if he wants to talk about it, he. he could, but he did obviously. um, he. had had the ranch and he as he came to. uh, Alliance conferences where they. announced it at the uh, thing. Um, initially. uh, the contest was not on the radar.

Uh, that is something that evolved. later. Um, but continuation of consciousness is. something he's been interested in for a. long time. Uh, you know, his Well, the. first time I met him was at MIT in '92. Um, John Mack was uh having uh. and Dave Pritchard had a conference on. uh. you know. >> [clears throat]. >> abductions versus NDEs and that.

and that's where I gave the first talk. on. correlation. Um, the bad news was that I. was. had to go right after John. And it was. tough act to follow. >> [laughter]. >> But having said that, I I first met Bob. there, but that was just a handshake. Hi, how are you? Uh, what I did not know at the time was. that his son had died. like within a month uh before that.

So, he had had the interest and I found. out later how many he went to lots and. lots of mediums and very familiar. Uh, he had brought uh Dean Radin uh in. the UNLV uh for a while. So, that there. was a precursor there and then they set. up the um. Bigelow Chair of Consciousness at UNLV. Charles Tart uh held that initially and. then Raymond uh came in uh for a while. Uh, bad news was that stopped funding it and.

they. >> [clears throat]. >> were eating principle and eventually. that uh ran out, but he's had. a long in- interest and. some personal tragedies that have. happened there that uh. I'm sure. have. driven certain factors and uh so, he. decided to set it up, brought Colin back. and. >> Well, you you covered this stuff for so. long. Was there anything in your.

research that you believed. and then. turned out that you were wrong or. or the or the opposite, something that. you didn't believe that you were. surprised that was true. >> Well, that's an interesting question. I. am. I would say. there were a lot of things that I would. have thought were. highly speculative. that I'm now willing to accept. For.

Well, we talked about progression in NDEs. And in uh the answer to your question is. yes, and that has to do with ADC. and some things we're doing in. after death communication. You know Gary. Schwartz? >> Mhm. >> I'll be hopefully talking to him. tomorrow. We talk periodically. Um but he was was with He's now retired. with the University of Arizona. and. working on something called SoulPhone.

>> SoulPhone? >> Yeah. Uh what they're trying to do is to. instrument the direct communications. This is ostensibly with. the help of some people that you would. know, you know, by you know, immediately. by name and that. who seem to be involved from the other. side, what he calls team A. uh is trying to uh.

uh assist in the communication. But this. is um. Yeah, you know, in the '80s nobody would. have touched them because that's you. know. kind of outside the realm, that's not. scientific. And now now you're getting. the point. And Gary. I would look him up cuz he's got a. number of books out that. on this and he's. Like the reason we didn't talk yesterday. is he was uh. uh editing a a book that is forthcoming.

on the future of Soul Phone. >> Oh, coming up on 2 hours, so I think. we'll say goodbye, Colonel John. Alexander. Thank you very much. It's been a lot of. fun. You're local, so anytime you want. to come back in, cuz we didn't talk. about directed energy weapons, non-lethal. We still have a lot more to. cover. >> Whatever. >> We'll get We'll get to that stuff. Whatever. >> world. >> Goodbye, everybody. That was Colonel John Alexander. We. covered fireproof shamans, spoon-bending.

parties for army generals, [music] a. werewolf in a Washington backyard, and a. coin that appeared overnight in a tent. in Mongolia. The career, Green Berets, Los Alamos, [music] the Pentagon. Well, that's all. public record, but some stories need a. checking. Start with the one that sounds. made up. John said the army brought in. Tony Robbins. Yeah, [music] that Tony. Robbins, pre-fame, to teach soldiers to. shoot using neuro-linguistic. programming. And that's real. John. helped run it, and Robbins still tells. the story. Everyone [music] qualified in. a day. The army fixed its pistol scores.

with the future king of the firewalking. seminar. I love this job. [music] Now, the white. cells. Researchers wired people's own. white blood cells to a chart recorder in. another room. John's personal result, he. [music] could beat the polygraph, but he. couldn't beat his cells. When the army. convened a scientific panel to judge the. weirdness, John took them to the lab. >> [music]. >> Two panel members donated cells. Minutes. into John's talk, the man watching the. recorder ran in and asked what happened. [music]. Report is real, enhancing human. performance, National Research Council.

1988, and it found no evidence for any. of this. The lab visit wasn't in there, so [music]. we have his word. But the story that got. me isn't from the lab. In the late '70s, John attended a workshop on death and. dying, then mailed the teacher [music] a. thank-you note. She was Elisabeth. Kübler-Ross, the five stages of grief. Kübler-Ross. Weeks later, she called his. office and asked to meet, >> [music]. >> and she told him, "I know a thousand. people in Atlanta, and I chose you, and. I have no idea why." John heard himself. answer, "I think I'm supposed [music] to. ask you a question." She ended up.

running his doctoral committee. That. part is on paper. The phone call isn't. Look, I can't follow John everywhere. The werewolf [music]. is where I tap out. And I say that as a. man who pays his mortgage with werewolf. stories. But everything I could check. out came back [music] true. So, the rest. gets patience. And I don't hand out much. of that. But John earned it the boring way, with. paperwork. [music]. He's local, so the will be around too. John's books are Reality Denied and. UFOs, Myths, [music] Conspiracies, and. Realities. Both on Amazon, both awesome.

And his site is johnbalexander.com. That's johnbalexander. Everything I. mentioned is linked below. I covered the. Army of Spoon Benders in [music] my. first Earth Talian episode. That was about John, too. I think he. Yeah, I mentioned him in that episode. That's a fun one. Oh, that's the Men in. Stare Coats. That's about George Clooney [music] as. John. Did you know that? I don't think. we brought it up. Until next time, be safe, be kind, and. love the you. I appreciate it.

>> [music]. [bell]. [music]. [music]. >> I played the Pleiades and Area 51. A. secret code inside [music] the Bible. said I [singing] would. I love my [music] UFOs and paranormal. phenomena as well as music. Some [music]. singing it like I should.

But then another conspiracy theory. becomes the [music] truth, my friends. And it never ends. No, it never ends. >> [music]. >> I feared the [music] crap got out and. got stuck inside Mel's hole with them. chaos truck. I feel I'm lucky to. aware.

Did Stanley Kubrick fake the moon. landing alone on a film set or were the. shadow [music] people there? The Roswell aliens gets fought [music]. the smiling man, I'm told, and his name was cold. But I can't believe. >> [music]. >> I'm dancing with the fishes. Head professional. Thursday nights with their J's. and the wild wild wild things. >> [music]. >> up through the night.

All I ever wanted was to just hear. >> [music]. >> the truth. So the wild wild wild things. up through the night. >> [music]. [music]. >> The [music] mothman sightings and the. solar storm still come to a god the.

secret city underground. >> [music]. >> Mysterious number stations, planets are. bold too. Project stargate and what the. dark watchers found. >> [music]. >> We're in a simulation, don't you worry. though. The black knight satellite show. missed all. I can't believe. I'm dancing with [music] the fishes. Head professional Thursday nights with.

their J's. and the wild wild wild things. up through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the. [music] truth. So the wild wild wild. things. up through the night. Head professional [music] Thursday. nights with their J's. >> you? >> And what happens. all through the. >> [music]. >> night? All. I ever wanted was to give [music] you. the truth. So what.

happens. all through the. night? >> [music]. >> Yeah, Kirdi loves to [music] dance. on the dance floor. Because she is a camel. And camels love to dance. >> [music]. >> when the feeling is right.

All. the way. in time. Kirdi loves to dance. Kirdi loves to dance. >> [music]. [bell].