The Basement: Jeremy Corbell | Betrayal, Surveillance, and the Secret Higher Than Nuclear Weapons

Today we're sitting down with Jeremy. Corbel, documentary filmmaker and. investigative journalist who spent over. a decade chasing the UAP story from Bob. Lazar to the halls of Congress. And. Jeremy didn't set out to do any of this. He was a martial arts instructor and. artist before a mystery illness that. left him fighting for his life forced. him to start over completely. >> He has a near-death experience and. becomes an artist. I've survived three. divorces. No art, just daydrinking. That. led him straight into John Leer's living. room, then to George Knap's door, and.

eventually to putting a camera in front. of Bob Lazar for the very first time. >> I said the entry fee to UFO disclosure. was fixing an old man's toilet. He. explains the whole government honestly. >> Today, we get into all of it. How he. earned trust with people who trust. almost no one. What it's actually like. getting worked by intelligence agencies. using what he calls false friendship. >> Intelligence agencies faking friendship. information. So, uh, basically Facebook. >> and the whistleblowers. he's helped. bring in front of Congress. Some of whom. paid a real price for it. He's got some. wild stories. Some he can back up, some.

he can't. I had a great time with this. one. I think you will, too. Let's go. down to the basement. Jeremy Corbell, welcome to the basement. >> Thanks for having me in the basement. >> I'm excited. >> Yeah. >> First, the first first question is a. two-parter. Is um. what kind of art do you make with your. own blood? And do you use any other. bodily fluids? [laughter]. >> It's gonna be that kind of party. Here. we go.

>> What? What? I mean, that's crazy. What. do you What's What's going What's. [laughter] going on? >> That was a phase, you know. >> That That's a crazy phase. >> Yeah. Wow. Um, well, [laughter]. >> no, I want to know. >> Yeah. No, you've done some research, man. Um, have I said that publicly? No. Uh, so the Yeah, the whole art thing for. me was a total fluke. I can't draw a. stick figure. You know, I met this um. beautiful artist who became my wife. after many years. And uh but how we met.

was, you know, I had been doing. jiu-jitsu my whole life and martial. athletics, you know, since I was 9 years. old. And I got super sick is the short. version of it. And I could no longer do. the things that, you know, I was. passionate about. I I thought that's all. I would ever do with my life. I had. school at UC Santa Cruz and that. expanded out into the world and I was a. young kid and you know had everything I. could ever want and then um you know.

getting really sick it changes. everything for you when you're a. physical person and I was going crazy. man and um moved back to LA. and just start disassembling. computers. They were on sale like a. stack of six computers at like a fry. electronics like old school kind of ones. the big monitors and started taking them. apart putting them back together just as. a physical thing to do. I I can't.

explain why I was just doing it you know. and I started seeing my whole. neighborhood was being demolitioned at. the time in Santa Monica because I had. hadn't been back in you know 15 years. So I started taking windows and doors. out of these um construction sites. >> Salvaging before the rec. >> salvaging, right? >> Salvaging. And then one time a. contractor caught me and was really. pissed. [laughter] You know. >> why? It's just le I think if I had.

gotten injured or I was going in there. with like full-on hammers and crowbars. >> Okay. [laughter]. >> You know, like getting through fences. >> That's where the blood comes from. >> Well, no, no, that's a different story. But um anyway, so that's kind of the. origin of of that is I was just um kind. of trying to find something to do with. my hands and. oddly enough, I had a garage that opened. up onto in in Santa Monica onto a main. street and I just kind of had nice tommy. mats and a heavy bag. That's what I. thought I was going to be doing. But.

then, you know, heavy bag comes down and. I start putting these windows and doors. up like on the walls and painting them. and installing lights and these um. computer screens. I figured out how to. separate the computer screens and do all. this stuff. So, I started rotating. imagery and sound. I don't know what I. was doing. I don't know what I was. doing. Um and then I got mistaken for as. an artist and uh literally a guy walks. down the street and he goes, "Are you an. artist?" And I remember going, I'm a.

martial artist like, [laughter]. you know, and then he goes, "Well, did. you make these?" I'm like, "Yeah." He's. like, "Have you shown them?" I'm like, "No." He goes, "Do you want to?" I'm. like, >> "Maybe." I didn't know. I really didn't. think that people would do that that. you, you know, I I didn't know what I. was doing. Um, so back to the blood. Um, so at the time they were taking blood. draws all the time cuz I had the valley. fever thing and I was on all these. medications and they're checking your. blood. And it was some chick that drew. the blood said, "Oh, it's really pretty. color blood." I go, "It is kind of cool.

Can I have some?" And [laughter] she. like filled up some vials on them. So, I. used that as a, you know, was I don't. know. I used that in some of the um, you. know, kind of constructed pieces and I. resined over the blood. You know, my mom. actually has, >> you know, you can buy red ochre in. >> I know. I know. I know. I [laughter]. don't know what I was doing, dude. It. was weird. So, that's the only bodily. fluid. But, um, yeah. taking apart. computers is interesting because your. grandfather was a watch maker, right? >> How do you know all this? >> Did you did you ever see him work?

>> Um, not. >> because that those people are amazing. >> Yeah. Not not on like watch. He later in. life he was doing more import export and. he was um you know kind of getting into. like jewelry trade and real estate. So I. never he I was really young and he was. born in 1903. or something. So he was really older by. that time. Um, so I never got to like. see him work, but I saw a lot of the. products that he created and stuff. Yeah. >> Did you know you got that from grandpa? >> I I don't know where. Yeah. I'm not I'm.

not like a technologically savvy person. to be honest with you. It was more just. like, you know, this screw goes here. Take this. It was just a mental game, man. It It was something like I lost my. identity, man. I don't know if you've. ever had that experience in life, but. it's like, you know, you think you are. what you do and you think this is the. one thing and the one way your life's. going to go. that that's what that's. what I thought and then when that was. just stripped away from me um I had to. figure out what am I like who am I if. not this guy that trains martial arts.

you know. >> well everyone knows you for being world. class martial artist but. >> oh world class I was not that great dude. trained a lot you're pretty good um. >> you're pretty good it's a big part of my. life as well and you you're pretty oh. for 30 years. >> what' you do. >> kempo. >> yeah man so you know the whole Yeah. >> yeah I trained for 30 years I taught for. 20 and was full-time for 10. >> I should have done my research on you. What? I didn't know that. AJ, >> I don't really talk about it because it. sounds stupid. [laughter] Um, >> it was a very developmental thing in.

your life. I mean, doesn't it help you. when martial athletics, right? Didn't it. You started when you were young. >> Didn't it help you like focus and and. and teach you how to think and. >> changes everything? Yeah. because which. is on my like list to talk to you about. is you kind of go into martial arts when. you go in young at least for me you. start out it's kind of like hot shit and. then when you take it seriously it. becomes your identity and it really. chills you out. >> Yeah. >> It gives you confidence. >> and discipline and I think I see a lot.

of that in your work still. >> but I want to know what why you got into. jiu-jitsu in the first place when you. were a kid. Every few decades, there's a. moment where the smart money and [music]. the everyday saver end up wanting the. exact same thing. This might be one of. those moments. 39 trillion in national. debt. [music]. Another trillion printed every few. weeks. Stagflation isn't a headline. anymore. It's just what's happening in. your paycheck. Look at where the money's. actually moving. Gold's up around 35%. over [music] the past year. Silver's up.

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or call 8889499172. [music]. for your 100% free info kit. >> Sure. I mean, probably for all the wrong. reasons like like you, you know, it's. like I was uncontrolled. I had. uncontrolled energy. My parents did not. know what to do with me. You know, I was. like one of those kids that would like. kind of see white and just, you know, taste metal in my mouth and just go. crazy. And um I remember the my first. introduction to martial arts was I come. home from school and my big brother was.

messing with me and I just go to punch. him in the face and he does something. and he just takes me bam and I I hit the. the floor and all the air was knocked. out of me. I couldn't breathe. >> Did he execute a technique on you? >> Yeah, it was like a hip thrower. >> Oh wow. Okay. >> Yeah. I just like I I threw a punch at. him. He smashed me on the ground and I. looking up at him and I was so. impressed, you know. I was like, "How. did you do that?" You know, and he was. like, "Jiujitsu." I'm like, "What. [laughter] the heck?" So that's kind of. how I started. I I was younger than him.

So I used to I actually got in trouble. Used to skip school to go train. I had. to get on a bus to go all the way out to. the valley, right? Because I was in. Santa Monica. And the teacher at one. point caught on that I was like, "How. did you get there?" You know, in that. amount of time. But that that's how I. started. And so I was kind of training. at this high school before I was in high. school. And um I I will thank my brother. for smashing me that one time. >> Of course. >> Yeah. That's how I started. And it just. gave me it gave me focus, man. Like you.

try something a thousand times and. someone else has only tried it, you. know, a hundred times and you're going. to pull it off. So it taught me that. >> Oh yeah. If you want the skill, you got. to drill. >> Rep. Okay. Repetition is the mother of. skill. Yeah. Absolutely. So, why did you. end up in Nepal and getting sick? >> Right. >> How did you get there? Why Why did you. even go there? You Cuz you were still a. kid, right? >> Yeah. I mean, I'm still a kid. I don't. know. Yeah, I was young then. Um, well, okay, I said out loud. Um, cuz Okay, so.

I had this like great thing going, right, where I had this great school. had satellite schools, really great. community of people, loved what I did, but I I just felt this thing where it. was like, is this all that I have inside. of me, which is fine, like I will do. this and I will get better and better at. it. I love it. But I said out loud, is. this all that I have inside of me? Is. this my life? Is this the path that I'm. supposed to go on? Like, I swear to God, saying it out loud, it was like the.

universe answered, right? I used to take. my students on two trips every year down. to Mexico Mazatlan and we would train. the Cinnoloan SWAT right that on hand to. hand. >> uh non-lethal stuff and then just have. like a big party and um do some festival. stuff where you you know demonstrate. They used to do a lot of demonstrations. like Juvenile Hall. All the flipping. stuff you done on that's not the normal. stuff we train. That's for show. That's. >> Sure. We had demo team.

>> Ex. Exactly. Yes. So we would just do do. demos, you know, around the world. And. >> like don't try this in the alley. >> No, no, no, no. It's it's just it's to. excite the minds and inspire kids that. there is another way because that that. happened for me. And one of my teachers. along the way was um well my primary. teacher one of my primary teachers was. sensei David Meyer and he was all into. Brazilian jiu-jitsu and at that time was. super new and I didn't know anything. about it and as he's learning it he's.

teaching us as well and now he's like a. coral belt or something you know he's. one of the top dogs the dirty dozen they. call him but I was learning that that in. the embryionic stage it was not MMA like. people know now you had to go train. boxing wrestling judo kempo jiu-jitsu. whatever iikido, you train everything, bring it together. You had to like lie. to the sensei that you were only. studying with them. It was weird. >> You You kind of do. Yeah. >> Yeah. You at that time it was very. different. We had you had to kind of. shield that you were doing these other. things. Um so I guess why I found myself.

in Nepal is because we do the thing in. Mexico every year with a bunch of like, you know, kids from university, but we'd. also go to Thailand and and train Thai. boxing and massage and all that stuff. So, I did my normal trip that year and. then I just remember feeling like I got. to just go, you know, somewhere where. I'm not me, you know, just like go walk. and not fall right back into that role. of like I'm teaching jiu-jitsu and all. this stuff. So, I remember going to the.

passport people or whatever, the visa. people and being like, "Where can I go. like today?" You know, and they're like, "Well, you you you know, you can't get. into like India takes seven days. we're. going to go today and they're like. Nepal. I had never heard of Nepal. Like. I I wasn't some one of these guys. thinking I'm going to go, you know, to. east and like walk the earth. I just. wanted to go somewhere where like you. could get there today. So they're like. Nepal who? [laughter] Nepal. Okay, cool. So I remember getting this having to go.

get some cash and I go and I had no idea. what I was walking into. Um I land in. Nepal and if I recall there was some. major event happening where some bombs. or something had gone off in in the. city. We can look that up some but it. was during that era. >> Yeah. >> And I was like you know where did I. land? It was so mysterious. It was. totally bizarre to me. A totally. different culture. You ever been? >> No. >> It it beautiful. I mean one of the. coolest places that I had ever been. But.

my whole point was just to get out of. myself, just to get away. Um, cuz when. you have like hundreds, if not thousands. of students over a decade, it's like. people always calling you sensei or this. or that. It it's it's not who you are, it's how they see you. So I'm there in. Nepal and I imagine eventually I'm going. to like go down to India cuz I've never. seen it before, you know? I traveled a. bunch for martial arts, but you don't. get to see places when you do that a. lot. you see the inside of a dojo, you.

>> right? >> So, I remember I go up to this um like. monastery or something like a Tibetan. monk monastery. and first thing that happens, this is so. bizarre. It's like midnight. I'm walking. down the hall trying to get away from. who I am to try to discover who I am or. something. And down the hallway, shit. you not, I hear somebody go, "Sensei, >> what? >> I swear on my life, bro." So what. happens is this student so this guy. starts walking down the hallway and.

again it's super late. Your room was. like the size of like this table. basically just a bed and this little. monastery and you get and some dude I. knew from Santa Cruz, California was. leaving at that time and I just it was. like a cosmic joke you know I was like. it was so shocking to me and so I had to. absorb that and I was like okay well. here I am. So I stayed for a little. while in Nepal. >> Training? >> No, I was just trying to just see the. world differently, you know.

>> Yeah. >> And um somewhere along the way they cuz. cuz I I I would wasn't feeling sick at. that time. Everything was fine. I make. my way to to Pune. Oh no. For two first. of Veronasi. Do you know about Veronasi? No. Okay dude. >> Look at a travel book. Um, Veronasi aka. very nasty is the a place in India where. you go and if you die there then you're. not reborn into karma. So you're you're.

instantly what they call like. enlightened. You don't have to be reborn. as a human. So imagine. >> the number of people coming there to. die. So and that is you look it up in. guide books. I had no idea you know what. I was walking into. So you see there. people at death store. You see their. bodies being cremated. Cremated. You see. them being put into the Ganes. I think. there's two types of people that don't. need to be cremated. Sadus like holy men.

>> and pregnant women cuz the babies are. pure or something. Everybody else, you. know, they they do this burning. They. they've kept the fire a light for. thousands of years they claim, right? It. is like from the funeral p and they. bring it over. >> So I it was kind of like shocking, right? I mean, I had been all around the. world. I'd been in slums. Um, this was. just a a culture that had existed for. thousands of years I was totally unaware. of. So, I'm there. Do you want to hear. the weird stuff? I mean, do you want to. This is not about UFOs, but this is. weird stuff. >> We'll get to that later.

>> Okay. So, >> this is a sacred place. >> Yes. A very sacred place where you're. not reborn into karma is how I. understand it. Right. That's that's my. understanding of it. So you you do see a. lot of death and dying. And I stayed a a. pretty good duration there. So I really. got to know it. Like there are these. cafes where the flies were so intense. I. would put a a like a shirt over my head. to eat the meal on the river because. there's so many flies cuz it was just. not sanitary. And then this sadu comes. down next to me. He was a white dude but.

like full of sadoo stuff. And he like. looks at me and kind of smirks. And I'm. like okay. and he takes this dish and he. puts a sugar cube on it and puts a. little water and all the flies got. attracted look like molten flies and he. was just eating and smiling at me. So I. was like, "Oh, there's a trick to this. life. What's going on here?" You know? >> So I just kind of met a lot of. characters and then um the most strange. part of the trip was you know how I told.

you I said that thing aloud, right? Um. is there more for me? Well, I was um. people ask you to come get chai or tea. in their homes. This guy had kind of. made friends with me. I' had known him. for a few days, took I have photos of me. and the guy like he's like this nice. guy. And then he brings me to get tea in. one of these homes. And it was this. absolute. knowing that they were going to poison. me. It was this it was this feeling of. like almost like you could hear it like.

trust needs to be earned. That's what I. kind of heard, you know, and I just. remember breaking all social norms. I. stood up, put my hand on the guy's. chest. He's a little guy, but it just. put my hand on I just go, "Trust needs. to be earned." Right when I said that, these two dudes come in, big dudes come. in and you could just feel it, like the. gravity of it, like I didn't drink the. chai and they were expecting me to drink. it. Now, you have no proof or evidence, so you just feel like, did I make that. up? It's better to be safe. What the. heck? My mind was spinning. I walk.

outside, walk for a couple blocks, and I. see this female who's sitting on the. curb crying. She I could tell that she. was a foreigner. She had like bright red. hair. Um, shout out to Anna Remington, by the way. So, that's who it was. As if. I'm still connected to her through. social media. And I had seen her and her. friend earlier that week cuz there were. not a lot of tourists at the time. There's on season and offseason. apparently. And I had at this point I'm. in India and it was offseason. So it was.

like you could tell when tourists are. there, you recognize them, right? Why is. this girl crying? So I went up to her. I. said, "What's the matter?" She says, "My. friend was poisoned with tea and she's. in the hospital and they took her. passport and I feel like they're keeping. her sick through her IV.". >> Oh my god. >> And I'm like, "What the like?" So that. that immediately I was like, "Who' they. look like? What they It was the same. group of people. >> What? Why would they do that?". >> Oh, now I know. >> Okay. So, so what happens is go to the.

hospital, create a big stink, you know. Um, >> you did. >> Oh, I did. Yeah. I went and with her, right? Cuz you're kind of, you know, a. girl alone in India. Um, there's me. So, you go there, make a big stink. And it. was the first time that I'd seen like. armed guards at the hospital. Something. just ain't right. Like they got her. passport, all this stuff. And um the the. girl Anna was saying, you know, when my. when my family finds out, like, you. know, they're gonna get the embassy. involved, like in implying to me that.

she has some sort of connection in. England where she's from. And I was. like, I I had no idea what she was. talking about. Sure enough, >> some badass bitch comes in from the. embassy with two other people. Immediately, they get that girl out and. they're like, um, will you, you know, escort them to Delhi? And I was like, we're planning to go to Delhi. I didn't. know where I was going, so yeah, no. problem. I'll take them. So that's how I. became friends with those two. Turns out. if you just read one of the guide books,

one of the things they say in the guide. book is be careful of poison in the. chai, it is a known scam at the time in. Veronasi. If I had just read a guide. book, right, this is like pre- internet. stuff. Yeah. >> So or you know pre there was like you. had little Thomas guides, whatever. But. like you literally crack open the book. and they told you about this scam. So. what the scam was was they make you. sick, you know, and they're like, "Oh, well chalera." They tried to pretend you. got chalera. They take you to the. hospital, they keep an IV in you that.

that pollutes you or makes you keeps you. sick and they milk the insurance money. and then take it out. You're good to go. So it was this known scam, but I did not. know about it. >> That's crazy that you felt it, though. I. >> I did. That was a something one of the. times in my life where it just I feel. like something just saved me there, man. I don't know what intuition. >> It's martial arts situational awareness. M. >> maybe. >> you just something doesn't feel right. here, man. >> Yeah. And it was almost it was almost. more than that. It was just something I. felt like um I I only had a couple.

experiences like that in my life where. you get information that there's no. logical way for you to have obtained it, you know. But um I guess that kind of. leads to uh my sickness had nothing to. do with that. Okay. Okay. >> Yeah. They they think I got it like from. disturbing of the soil. Like one night I. was like slept out on the road, you. know, in a farm area. I I you know, I. was just a kid kind of in a way. And. then um also like in the caves, like if. there's like bats, they'll just stir up. dust or something.

>> So I got spores in my lungs. Um and the. thing is it got really bad and I didn't. know it was bad cuz I wasn't like. looking in the mirror and stuff. I was. just kind of like walking and I started. feeling really sick. I remember calling. my family being like something is really. wrong. And and how I learned that was um. I was in a room. I went down to Pune, India. You ever hear about that? >> Nope. >> Super weird place. There was this um. guru called Osho and I was like, you. know, I had read some of his books. I. want to see what this dude was about. Turns out he was dead anyway. But it was.

like this cult man. These big old. pyramids. They they run this whole city. called Pune India. And so it was this. bizarre thing. They like, you know, I. went into this compound. I I had spent a. few days just kind of reading books and. seeing what and it just felt so creepy. and it felt so culty and so I was kind. of like maybe that's the start of the. investigator in me. I was like what's. going on here? You know. >> and you're sick when you're when you're. dead. >> No. So I'm fine. And then all of a. sudden. >> imagine boarding a plane and hearing the. pilot say good news. I watched three.

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feel right. And then I must have been I. I woke up and my bed was just completely. drenched wet with sweat and I I had been. hearing like chimes and stuff and um I. started talking with my buddy Ricky and. we're talking it was like he was there. I kind of woke up out of this and I. realized it had been like 2 or 3 days. and Ricky had been dead for a while. >> Oh Jesus. I was um hallucinating from a.

fever. So my brain was cooking, man. So. I it was it was in it was in my body and. they called they got so nervous they're. going to have some dude die in this like. cult ashram kind of weird place. So they. sent in a doctor cuz I wouldn't I. wouldn't go to the hospital. >> because of the experience prior. >> So they're like they sent in some. doctor. Do you have a fever? I'm like I. don't know. I don't know in my whole. life I ever had a fever. How would I. know? You know I I really didn't know. She puts like a um a thing in my armpit.

to test my fever and it was 107. >> Oh no. >> In the armpit. So that means your brain. is cooking, you know. So they panicked. and they shot me in the butt with some. um. >> you know remedy or something to lower. reduce the fever. And it was like. somebody just yanked my head out of the. water. It was like this instantaneous um. like like a consciousness, you know. I. was like, "Well, fuck. I got to get out. of here." So they they um said, "Well, you we have your passport. You need to. drink this much water in this many days.

Like I have video of me lining up the. water, you know, doing like a little. video to myself, you know, like I just. got to drink this water. I'm getting out. of here." And I just pounding that. water. They they gave me back my. passport and I left. Why'd you have to. give them your passport? >> You know, I don't know. Back in the day, maybe because it was a cult. It was like. it was a weird. >> I would want to give that up, >> bro. I was so dumb. I'm a little smarter. now, but at the time to enter this. compound, I guess you had to like give. them your passport. >> You're in your 20s, right? >> Yeah. >> So, you do you'll do anything. You're.

invincible, >> dude. I Yeah. Totally invincible. Yep. And um anyway, so that's the long way. around it is um that happened again a. couple more times where they had told me. you just have some bacteria. It's. different here in India than it is in. the US. So, you take stuff for your. lungs, you know, took uh like bronchitis. medicine, antibiotics, and you'd feel. better for a little bit, but then it did. happen two more times. And then I. realized, oh, I'm re something's really. wrong. >> You you got to get home. >> Yeah, you got to get home. >> And it was the first time in my life I.

ever flew um business class and I. thought it was such a party and I. [laughter] couldn't I couldn't enjoy it, dude. You know, you have this like nice. seat and. >> but I was I was just dying, dude. Um. >> passing up champagne for I just need. water. I literally was like, they must. have thought like a dead man on the. plane, you know, but uh yeah, I remember. getting back and they immediately. discovered that it was a coxillitis. I. don't know the name of it, like valley. fever. And it had gotten from my lungs. It had damaged my heart, my kidney, my.

liver. It had actually started coming. out. I got little scars in my arms. because it came through the this the. skin. It had gotten so bad. So they were. even even at UCLA, they were worried. that it had progressed too far. So they. give you um a pill that's like an. antif-ungal. Yeah. >> And um and a bunch of other other stuff. And um then very slowly um I started. kind of regaining my energy. And it's. right about that time that I started. doing the the computers things and and. painting. And then um.

>> But you couldn't train anymore? >> No, dude. I could not like to walk down. the block and then harvest a door would. put me down for a day and a half, two. days because the the amount of uh energy. had sucked out of my body. I was skinny. as a rail. I was just um really fucked. up. >> You not depressed? >> Yeah. Well, that's a whole another. thing, right? >> Cuz your identity is destroyed. >> Yeah. That's that's the next the next. thing that happens, right? Is you're you. kind of get back to okay, I can move, but who am I? What am I doing? So.

there's absolutely that loss of identity. and ego which is the best thing that. ever happened to me. You know. >> you is it. >> it is because the one thing I learned. from all of that is that we are not what. other people say we are right praise and. blame is all the same. If someone. doesn't know you like your family you. should listen to people that really know. you but if they don't know you they're. filling in voids about who you are and. usually with false things. And it also. taught me that we are not.

just the things that we do. That the. things that we do are because of who and. what we are on the inside, man. And so. you can apply that to anything. If. you're fidious and you you study physics. books and then you do a podcast, all the. things you do, right? Um those are just. expressions of who you are. And that's a. deep spiritual lesson for me. um. whatever that word means. It just um you. know it taught me that we can live many. lives and that we can apply ourselves to. almost anything and if we're diligent, we do it a thousand times and not just.

100 times that you know the only failure. you're going to have is not trying. So. that that was the best the best lesson. of my life. And I met my wife through it. all, you know, cuz she's looking at this. some dude making what she thinks is art. like inside of this. >> It really was art. It was amazing. multimedia presentations. >> Yeah. Yeah. I just make a joke cuz I. can't draw a stick figure. My wife can. actually paint amazing, creepy, weird. stuff. She can do all this stuff with. her imagination. For me, it was more. like a physical trade than it was um you.

know that I saw. Like jiu-jitsu is an. art to me, but it's very mechanical. >> Yes. >> Right. >> So, you kind of It's like paint by. number. You just you learn what the next. number is. >> Yep. >> Do it a thousand times. >> Do it a thousand times and then you earn. another number. >> That's right. >> You discover another number. >> You That's true. Yeah, >> you're always learning. Um, these are. themes that I see in your story coming. up all the time and that's salvage. And. another one is because you just kind of. alluded to it is the unflattening of a. story. How how people are always.

flattened into a story whether it's. David Grush or it's Bob Lazar, their. story gets flattened. Um, >> like you mean you mean that's what. that's what you are? That. two-dimensional thing. >> Yes. So, what I'm getting to is Sharon. Tate's story was flattened and you. unflattened it. >> Whoa. Yeah. >> Can you tell Can you tell me about that? >> Yeah. >> That that piece that you did. >> This is going to sound like my whole. life is an accident and the thing is it. might be. You know, it's weird. Um.

>> I think it's all programmed. You're. following the You're following the. program, man. It's all good. >> Yeah, that was a weird detour as well. Um, so that odd thing was I had been. doing these little art shows and. installation shows in LA and it was a. really fun really creative time in my. life and I was meeting I met my wife met. met a bunch of friends. We kind of. created this community of like doing. these art shows take over you know a. motel in Hollywood or something and line. the walls with um, you know, newspaper.

I love the LA Times for some reason. Newspaper everywhere. I just love the LA. Times logo, you know. We'd fill it up, you know, girls in sunglasses, like. crazy themes. And then, um, and then, okay, this is a weird one. Um, so, you know, I used to do something. called warrior yoga, and it was like. yoga for athletes. And why I called it. that is cuz I used to teach in juvenile. hall. So, you had to get these kids. attention. So, I say, "If you don't stop.

doing push-ups, you'll have free. training for life. We're right up here. at the university. I'll have students. come pick you up. You're good to go.". So, the idea was to get them to not. repeat the habit. Get them out doing. something physical and good. So, a lot. of kids came out of that. >> I don't think a lot of people know that. you did that for juvie kids. >> Yeah, I did it for me, too. Yeah. >> Of course. >> But, why did why did you choose to do that? Were you a Because you weren't a. chicken, right?

>> No, I I was good at not getting caught. >> Yeah, fair enough. >> Um, no, I mean I I never was. institutionalized or anything like that. >> Um, but I think it was that I I think I. met a couple kids. I knew about the. program. Um, and I just asked one day. I'm like, "Can I just come and teach. them martial arts?" And they're like, "Nope." I'm like, "What?" [laughter]. Like, "We can't teach them wrist. escapes." And I'm like, "Oh, okay. That. makes sense, >> right? >> And um so I just started this kind of, you know, whatever balloon program, this.

little thing that they were very unsure. of it, but it was just like, let me give. them a a good martial arts workout. We. called it warrior yoga. So they would. think it's really cool. >> and let's just see how it goes. And then. my buddy, this guy Frank Shamrock, he's. a a fighter. Used to, you know, good. friend of mine. I trained with him a. bunch. And um you know, he trained with. also with us a bunch of the yoga and the. breathing stuff. and he taught me so. much about um how how to move in in. martial athletics and he had been.

institutionalized you know he was in. prison at one point so I brought him in. and the kids knew cuz at the time he's. so it became this really popular thing. this huge program so I kind of I think I. just started it with the idea of you. know let's see if we can give people. something they can do other than this. but then it just grew man it just grew. and it was it was um you know a lot of. lot of people benefited from it and I it. just it was a fun thing to do. >> My favorite part of my career was. teaching.

like boys who are like 14, 15, 16, 17. who were just they were just pains in. the asses and just slapping them around. and and just setting them on that path. >> There's a lot of boys that need that. >> Yeah. >> To. >> I did. >> I did too. You got to direct that energy. and now you do it positively. And if you. stick with it, you learn discipline, you. learn respect, >> and uh I'd have parents come in and. thanking me for, you know, for kicking. the shit out of their kids for a year. [laughter] It's It's amazing what you.

did. Um. >> Yeah, they'd get good, too, man. They. start kicking my ass. >> Oh. Oh, yeah. The girls, too. >> Yeah. >> I took some lumps. Um you invented a. massage system. >> Restoration massage therapy. >> Did didn't invent that. That was like. So, >> well, you have a registered trademark, >> right? So, so because at at the time for. jiu-jitsu, yoga and all this stuff, when. you're in that world and you're creating. these systems for university students, you trademark it so you could create all. the educational materials around it. So,

I actually started training and learned. u massage at starting at the age of nine. as well. And that was because my. original school they had uh five. teachers and they're all from a variety. of disciplines and they always you know. bestowed upon us that if you learn how. to like disassemble and you learn how to. do the martial athletic stuff then you. know you need to know how to heal your. own body and help other people. So that. was I don't know if it is today and I. don't think it is today and the same. with MMA. It's much more a sport now.

>> Yeah. But at the time it was very. valuable. Like you you do all this stuff. for your fitness and health with what we. called warrior yoga. But then with the. massage it was this guy named Okazaki. out in Japan and he had created this. Okazaki massage style. He had a student. named Sig Kuv. This guy was out of the. Bay Area and they all trained me in this. kind of bodywork style which is very. useful because you mess something up you. know um you you have ways to heal it. So.

that was kind of the, you know, the. triad it with the martial arts was the. yoga and then the massage. And yeah, I. taught that, you know, 10 years at a. university and again, school was all. over the place. It was a great life. I. learned so much from it. I loved it. because it was it was a creative thing. Um, but yeah, that's how Oh, Sharon Tate. you asked about, right? So that's a. that's where we were going is a weird. one. So. what happened is.

>> cuz she's known for the one thing. >> She's known for the one thing. She's. known for Charles Manson. She's known. for being murdered in 1969 and the whole. world. >> two dimensional flat story. >> Right. Right. Exactly. So how that. happened was um I had done an art show. and this producer from Inside Edition, you know, says, "Hey, you know, we need. a photographer." Uh, and it gets even. weirder. Like there was this um there. was this uh studio and when I was doing. the warrior yoga thing, um Lululemon, I.

guess, uh was like, you know, will you. come be an ambassador, you know, and. we're going to take some photos and put. your photo up. You're an ambassador. I'm. like, okay, do do a yoga class inside. the the studio. I'm like, sure. >> You're the Lululemon ambassador. >> At one point I was. At one point it was. They had a bunch of them local. ambassadors or something. It was just it. was a weird thing, man. I didn't know. what was going on. >> Just go with it. >> They went with it. So I start, you know, starting to feel better at that time. So. I was like, "Sure." And um I met this. guy in this photo studio, this little. Iranian guy named Peter, and he was like.

I thought he was like a grip, you know? He was just kind of hanging out as they. were doing their thing, but we really. hit it off, man. We we sat outside. We. were talking for a while. And um I had. that in the back of my mind that there. was this guy and and super nice guy. named Peter. Well, I'll get there because it's such a weird. road. But what what happened was. >> I go overseas and I start doing uh just. taking the shitty little camera and.

doing a new art series I was going to. do. I had a a show all set up when I. come back. >> Is this a camera that was gifted to you? >> Um no. So that was that's a that's like. a video camera. This is like a still. camera. Okay. Right. So I I just started. like taking these photos. I was going to. call the series like women in sunglasses. >> and um you I was young. I was out, you. know, in Europe at this point. Um, and I. just, uh, went for a little while and. then I got robbed of all of my equipment. in Prague. Um, >> how did that happen? >> Uh, I come back from going to watch uh,

Oceans, whatever, like one of those. heist movies. Yeah. >> And I had left in my room in a safe my. camera equipment, my hard drives, and I. actually had bought some like suits or. something like that. So, I had like a. couple cool suits and um I just had this. gut feeling, dude, get back to the. hotel. You know, something like I just. had that fear like something isn't. right. >> Get back to the hotel. The door was. smashed in. The safe was wide open and.

somebody had just and there was like. three security door. It was like a. hostel, but there were like three. security doors and then there was this. like private, you know, room with a big. fucking door. And um somebody had come. in and smashed everything and stolen. everything. >> How they get in the safe? >> Great question. >> Mhm. I don't like it. >> No, I don't like it at all. So up come. the stairs. There's this gigantic. Serbian dude and he's like, "Do we have. a problem?" And I'm like, "Yeah, we have. a fucking problem." And I I like I knew. instantaneously that this guy was a part.

of it, right? Mhm. >> So my dumb ass. pushes him up against the wall. and he and he just like smirked at me. like there's nothing I could do to this. guy. He knew something that I didn't and. it was fucking frightening. Next thing I. know, these investigators, these cops. come up and they were like, "You're. going to jail.". >> You are? >> Yeah. And I'm like, >> "For assault?". >> Um, well, I was like, "Why?" And they're. like, "Cuz you don't have. identification." I'm like, "Yeah, my. passport WAS JUST STOLEN.".

OH, DUDE. >> YEAH. SO, all this to say, what happens. is I make like my emergency call and I. wasn't holding for 72 hours. I have all. the paperwork for it. Um, >> you were in holding for for 3 days. >> They gave me a candy bar. They gave me a. candy bar. None of them spoke English. until the the third day. And. >> they spoke English. They knew English. >> They they sure did. And um anyway, so. what ended up happening was an embassy. guy, you know, comes up, says, "We're.

going to, you know, get you out of here. Going to get you an emergency passport. You're going to go home, right?" I was. like, "Fuck that. I'm going home." They. stole everything that I had. It's, you. know, all my work, everything. So, I. decide I'm going to investigate what's. going on. I start loitering around the. place. I I talk to the girl that runs. the cameras at the thing. She She starts. crying. and she's talent. She slips me a. note and being like, you know, all the. footage is gone from that moment you. were set up. It's and now I know exactly. what happened. But these are the.

situations I used to really get in when. I was an idiot. Um so what happened is. um they they assigned an investigator to. me that's a local guy and he's standing. there and the big Serbian guy, he owns. the hotel. So eventually I confront the. guy with the I call him Inspector Crusoe. because he was not trying to help me, right? >> And the Serbian dude says, "You know, people get killed for a lot worse." So I. was really causing problems talking to. his employees, all this stuff. Just. trying to get my shit back. I I figured.

at the time I figured my camera, my. computer, I could get it back. Um so. that didn't work. And he said to me, you. he said some threat right in front of. the Inspector Crusoe. And I'm like, "See, he's threatening me right there.". And then the inspector Crusoe turns to. me and goes, "Yeah, he's a really bad. man." And I'm like, "Oh, fuck. I'm out. of [laughter] here." So like, you know, tail between my legs. I'm like, "I'm out. of here." And I So I call back to the. one photographic studio I knew, which. was Peter Carpatian. Peter Carpatian was. not some grip, you know, that was there.

He's like a famous Vogue photographer. from the 70s who's done these covers and. and he goes, "Darling, I'm Peter. Carpatian. Come back. We'll shoot a. show." [laughter] It's like comical. So. I I kind of did like a fake art show. Like I got all my friends. It's called. Women in Sunglasses. There's like videos. of it and like all my friends came and. wore these sunglasses. >> Can I call you darling from now on? >> Yeah. Darling. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]. Yes. Yes. Officially. So he was great. He saved my ass. And so then I kind of. get mistook as this photographer. That's.

kind of how the photographic element of. the art stuff started happening. Look. So I'm feeling better at this point. I've had some more adventures. And then. I get a call and they said, "At that. studio, we need a photographer to. photograph Sharon Tate's wardrobe on a. model named Lauren Hastings." And none. of this is all like gibber. I was like, "Wow, I didn't, you know, I just knew. Sharon Tate, like you saying, two-dimensional, right?". >> I'm like, "Well, that's kind of creepy.

Do I want to do this?" I'm like, "Yeah, sure. Why not?" So, I went and I um. right before my the guy Peter Carpatient. had taught me this Polaroid camera, this. old school press Polaroid, how to rip it. out. And I threw it on the ground once. I stomped on it. It created these cool. patterns. So, I started doing that all. the time. Sharon Tate's sister comes in. and she's watching this, you know, shoot, which I I had no knowledge of the. fashion industry and all how why this. was important. I just knew Sharon Tate. was this like person that had died and.

her sister starts crying and I say, you. know, I can do I'm an artist now. Like I. can do better than this. We can do a. whole thing like honoring your sister. So I made this kind of arrangement with. her that, you know, I would do it was. like a 10,000 piece art show because of. all the Polaroids. And I built dresses. out of [laughter] I built dresses out of. Polaroids and I did these huge large. format ones. There's a bunch of video of. it online like LA Times covered it. Smashing success, man.

>> So, out of nowhere, you know, I've got. this like art career and it's pretty. good. It's It's pretty awesome, man. >> So, kind of just going with the flow and. flowing with a go and enjoying it. That's what happened. >> So, then um so Jeff gives you a video. camera, right? >> Jeff Murad. >> Jeff Mad. You still talk to him? >> Uh I do. Yeah. He he comes to some of. the, you know, whatevers, >> whatevers, >> whatever things. Yeah. He's a sweet kid. >> He's a sweet kid. >> Yeah.

>> So, Jeff gives you the camera and uh. >> You still have that camera? >> I do. Canon 5D Mark I filmed all my. movies. >> 5D Mark I. >> It's not even the good one. Yeah, >> but it was pretty good back in the day. >> It was. He gave it to me for my wedding. uh with my wife and we just started, you. know, kind of using it on their road. trip across country for our anniversary. And that's how I kind of learned to. frame and do. >> Well, I I read that you were practicing. on your on your honeymoon. >> Yeah. >> Have any of those videos you want to. >> I I I do. I [laughter] I do, man. I was.

like, you know, you were in Texas and. there's a long road. We're lighting off. fireworks and, you know, Yeah. It was. kind of neat. It was a way to document. our our kind of honeymoon and Yeah. What. I like about you getting the camera is I. maybe. you started to learn that for some. reason people will open up to a camera. >> That's precisely what happened. Yeah. Um. that is exactly what happened. Uh and it. kind of started with like my grandma, right? Um you know she I I was telling.

you this story outside there which is. that I had made this art piece of the. battle of Los Angeles, a very famous UFO. battle or battle UFO thing where the. United States military shot up 1300 or. 1400 12 pound mortars or something like. that. >> Yeah. This audience knows this. >> Okay. Okay. Yeah. It's like some big. event and you could see it from the. Palisades and two of the windows I. harvested were viewing that way from the. Palisades. So I thought, well, I'm going.

to take images from the LA Times, rebuild that as if you're looking out. And then I did like a dual panel and um. it didn't sell. So [laughter]. I naturally what do you do when you're a. kid? Your art doesn't sell. You give it. to your parents. So I went and stalled. it way high up where they could never. get it down in their house. And my. grandma just walks by and she goes, "I. saw that." And just walks out the. kitchen. I'm like, "Ho ho ho ho, hold. on. What do you mean you saw that?" you. know, and I sat her down and, you know,

kind of she told me about seeing the. Battle of LA, this thing object being. shot out in the sky. >> Mhm. >> And then she also told me all this stuff. about my family that she had never told. even her own daughter, my mom, >> on camera. >> On camera. It was like a It was like um. I don't think anybody had ever sat her. down with a camera before. And it was. just like I saw this thing where just. pointing this camera at somebody, not. even about UFOs really. This is about. family stuff.

>> They they just uh told you stuff that. would have been lost forever if you. didn't point the camera at them. >> And so I I like to make the joke that. camera became my passport into. everything unknown that I wanted to know. or at least it had the potential to be. that. It's a weird thing. You point a. camera at somebody and they have these. things that they they want. so. desperately to say just to get it off. their chest, not to be public a lot of. time in the UFO, but just to say it. >> Yep. >> So, I I learned that really quick that.

that is I could be misidentified as a. filmmaker, you know, [laughter] that's. kind of what happened. >> Wow. Um. >> what were the secrets of the family that. she told you? >> She had at one time um had a daughter. that didn't make it and my she had never. told my mom. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> just something she had just never never. told my family. >> How did your mom react to that? >> Oddly enough, it's weird. We're talking. about this. She didn't have the heart to.

watch. I told her about it, but. yesterday on my way over here, she asked. for the video about 28 minutes. So, she's probably has watched it now for. the first time. And that was like a. decade long 15 years ago. I don't know. Something like that. Now, >> it's because of Sleeping Dogs. I feel. like I know your mom. >> Oh, she's. >> she's so sweet in that. And well, I I. >> She's a gangster. >> Yeah. >> But yeah, she's what you see is what you. get with her. >> Yeah. She had me choked up a couple of. times during the movie to be honest. >> It was a hard time in my life and she.

was going through it too. There's a lot, you know, not said in the documentary. like what she had to go through. She's. had to sit down with agencies before. because of threats. So, she really My. mom's been through a lot. three boys, you know, but that was a very hard time. for all of us. And you know, the kid. Michael captured it all or a lot of it. >> Kid Michael, um, we have to get his name. right. >> Yeah. Michael Lazovski and Sleeping Dog.

is the movie. Yeah, >> Sleeping Dog. It's a great movie. >> Um, your mom was so badass because. I think he asked her, you know, do you. wish that Jeremy never got into this? And she said, "No, I'm glad he did Yeah, that surprised me that she said that. >> Me, too. >> Yeah, >> I didn't see that coming. >> Um, I want to talk about John Leer, but. we're coming up on a break. >> Yeah. >> Well, we'll leave it with this. cliffhanger. We'll come back. We'll talk.

about you fixing John Leer's uh toilets. I talk about John Leer a lot on the uh. on my show. So, when I saw Sleeping. Dogs, I I was like, "This is gold." I. had no idea. You spent so much time with. John. So much. >> Yeah. >> How did you even come to learn about. him? >> Right. How to learn about him? Um, well, he was like the godfather man from the. era from the Artbell era that we've. talked about. >> You know, the one looming name was this. enigmatic character. John Lear used to.

fly for the CIA. You know, his dad. invented the eight track stereo. You. know, it became Multraola the company. Like he knows all these insiders. you. know, man, he had some crazy theories. I. mean, he was just like this omnipresent. personality in UFO land before it kind. of moved into mainstream, you know. He. was the guy. He was infamous, you know. So, I had heard about him because of I.

guess originally the George Knap. interview with the shady. >> um background. Yeah. >> Yeah. did the Dennis interview and um. you know. >> Oh, the Dennis interview. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. That was like So that was when. Lazar um came forward to George Knap and. was in silhouette so you couldn't see. his face, but they called him Dennis and. that was just repeated over the. airwaves, you know, that was just like. everybody was talking about that in in. UFO land or whatever on the radio. And I.

remember must have been 13 and I heard. that. I I think I heard it before I saw. it and you know kind of that's when. George Knapp's name got on my radar too. and this Bob Lazar character because he. ended up coming out as Bob Lazar. >> and so John was you know woven into that. story and you know what you get is you. read all this stuff about it but these. people are just like these voices and. then these stories and then maybe you.

see like you know news clip of them and. they become a little more real. But I. was always fascinated by that. You know, hearing what Bob said um really flipped. my script. And we had talked about this. for a second, but I grew up knowing. that UFOs. that aliens, they're probably real, but. they're not coming here. That's what we. all grew up knowing because the. distances are just too vast. And I.

bought into that, you know, I thought, well, that's weird, but why are people. seeing them? Right? But I I wasn't like. obsessed with it. It was just it really. sparked me to hear this story because of. what Bob said. And Bob said instead of. like a reactionary propulsion system. from rockets to roller skates, you push. something out the back, you go forward. He says, "What was different about these. craft is that they basically create a. gravity well. You're falling into time. and space." And I'm like, "You're.

falling. You're falling. So you're not. pushing out the back. were falling in. And I thought, you know, if I was a dumb. young kid, but I thought if what he's. saying is true, not not his whole story, just like if craft could do that with. science, then distance no longer. matters. You're you're falling into. space and time. You need a lot of energy. to do that, but you're falling into. space and time, so distances no longer. matter. So why wouldn't. >> and he's saying this 25 years before the.

albby carry drive. >> right. >> and we were talking earlier about the. exploring multiple dimensions. compressing space searching for kuza. climb particles is what it is. you know Bob didn't specifically say. kooa climb but he was talking about tech. that they're actually looking into right. now. >> yeah and Bob would be the first to say. all these years that all he knows is. what he's seen touched and shown um. words on paper he was told some filed. things, but you know, he didn't know and.

to this day doesn't claim that he knows. that was true because there's always. disinformation sewed in with real. information just so you can identify. leaks. That is a standard practice in. any. >> um black budget program, anything. But. so, so Lear was this gigantic. persona, right? But I knew that he was. close. I think how it happened in my. mind was I knew he was close to the. Lazar story which I knew was the most. fascinating to me because remember at. that time before the movie I made on.

Lazar was out this was all sub stuff. It. wasn't pop culture stuff. The world had. not changed no. >> with UFOs at that time. So I was just. like who can I actually reach? And and. like George Nav, I mean I called John, I. emailed John. nothing. Nothing for a. long time. But one time he did pick up. his phone and his immediate response. was, "Come on, Las Vegas, Nevada. Here's. my address. Come visit me." Like click. Like it was like totally insane to me.

that somebody I I Nobody knows. I'm not. doing UFO stuff, but just my I think he. was I think he like was lonely or. something. You know what I mean? >> I saw the movie. I think he was. >> Yeah, I think he was. And so. >> he he really wanted someone to talk to. >> He did. And and I I think he just opened. I think I came at the right time. He. opened the door. I had a camera which he. thought meant something, you know, and I. was honest with him. I said like I've. never made a movie, but I just I'm I'm. fascinated by this. I want to learn from. you. Can I record some of it? So that's.

how it happened. It was just very. naturally, you know, but I was dogged. about it. I didn't just like come one. time and figure I got it all sorted out. Came over and over and over again. >> Did you have to bring the Philly Titans. the first time in? >> Not the first time. That was a lesson I. learned probably the second time. Yeah. Had to smuggle him cigars. >> Contraband. You want the story? Got to. bring me Titans. >> That's right. >> From Walgreens. >> That's right. Well, first at first he. wouldn't say shit to me. And that is. very real. So, the thing I really. appreciate about Michael's movie, by the. way, is that the one thing I told him is.

no movie magic. Don't skew things with. time. Show it like it happened. Like, I. hadn't even looked at the footage. You. talk with Michael like I would describe. a story to him and he'd be like, "No. way." I'm like, "Dude, watch the. footage." And he did. He'd be like, "No, no, it's even cooler than you said." He. he reminded me of stuff like um how I'm. complaining that George Knap will never. pick up my calls to John and John says, "I don't know who he picks up for. anybody." I had told Michael that story. that like I had been trying to get to. George Knap for many years and it's all.

documented right there. It was It was. pretty neat. So, >> did you let Michael have the full edit? >> Yeah, I gave Michael everything. He It. was completely his movie. Yeah, >> cuz there there's a couple of spots. where you're like, "Don't put that in.". What? >> Oh, I know. My like even my family was. like, you know, showing yourself. emotional and all that. >> It had to be there, man. >> Really? Yeah. I'm glad you said that. But I just like it. You It's a horrible. feeling for me, >> of course. >> Yeah. >> But it makes you a person, >> right? >> I'm just He did a great job with it.

>> He's a good He's He's a really talented. filmmaker and it was a heavy subject. He. had to go through. I mean just thousands. upon thousands of raw footage that I had. never looked at. So somehow he over like. a course of a year or more absorbed it. all, watched it all, you know, pinned. the things he thought was important as. he's doing it. >> Did were you rolling on on John Leer. every time you were there? >> Every single time. >> How much footage? That was a year, >> dude. Ask Michael, he'll tell you the.

exact thousands of hours, man. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, dude. I How many year? you know, eight, nine years filming with. Lear. But, but like the first time that. I went out to film with John Lear, I was. such a dumbass. I like I figured like, you know, what's the first question you. ask? What is your greatest piece of. evidence that UFOs are real and. extraterrestrials exist? You know, it. was like that that was my I just came in. hot like that. And it it just I thought. it was simple like this guy had. something. It wasn't that. Um, it's an.

accumulative weight of relationships and. evidence and understanding that brought. John. to some weird places that that he. believed. >> How did he come to trust you? >> I think trust uh fluctuated with with me. and John. >> I can see it in the movie. >> Yeah. I I was his least favorite person. sadly towards the end of his life. >> Yes. >> He is a very complicated guy. Um, he had.

a great sense of humor. He had a great. laugh. I I loved him like family. Always. will. Um, but it was a kind of up and. down relationship. So, at first, of. course, he doesn't trust me and he's. using me. And he wouldn't even talk to. me about UFOs. Like, that's real. When. you see him just like smoking his cigar. and barely looking at me, and then he'll. go take a nap. It was just like he's. letting me film him like a animal in the. zoo. Like, it was just really bizarre. And that's. >> the His whole setup is weird, man. It. was like a hoarder.

>> Yeah. >> Kind of. >> Yeah. >> TVs everywhere. I mean, it was like like. a sci-fi set. >> It was like a sci-fi set. >> But this was like legit, man. This is. >> Yeah, though. That's John came as he is. Like that's that's John Lear. I mean, the whole TV thing like back in the day, he would have like CNN on one, you know, Fox on another, BBC, you know, he'd have. all the news separated on these TVs. Um, and then he he'd be playing tapes, reviewing stuff. People would mail him. rand like me now. People mail random.

things and you're like, should I even. watch this? So that that setup was. probably useful at one time, but I'm. kind of coming in at the twilight of of. his life, you know. He was a very. different person before I met him is. what I've heard from everybody. Um, and. he was he was fucking with me from time. to time, you know. Um, the whole thing. with this toilet was, um, I just kept. like I'm trying to like film and there's. this constant toilet just ghost. flushing, which by the way costs a lot. of money. I'm dealing with that right.

now with apartments. You have to put a. dye in the top of the toilet. You have. to wait five minutes and see. It's like. this whole So, I had grown up knowing. how to deal with this and it just drove. me crazy. So, I. >> Yeah. People don't know that you you. make your living with real estate and. apartments and management. >> That is my actual job. >> You're right. UFOs. You're not making a. fortune from your UFO. >> Unfort unfortun I'm a hor [laughter] I'm. a horrible griff. I am told even by your. own brother like we are not monetizing. you know our podcast. Well, um for me. this is um I like having financial.

independence because it puts me in a. unique position with journalism where I. don't have to work for a big company and. I don't have to get like benefits from. them. So, I will maintain my apartment. and house uh renovation business because. that is what has always fed my family. and I can rely on it because those are. fixable problems. >> Um, literally just fixing. uh some apartment toilets uh 3 4 days. ago. So, but I I love that. I love that.

because they are fixable problems and it. relieves my mind. It's like going back. to the computers with like you know. unbolting them unbolting them back. It's. very simple. With John, it was very. simple. Fixed his toilet so it wouldn't. make this sound when I was recording. Then he realized, "Gold mine. I've got a. smuggler and a handyman.". >> Yep. >> And man, did he put me to work. So, yes. >> All around the house. >> All around the house. >> What are you fixing? >> Everything. And he thought I was a. computer wiz, too. And I wasn't. I'd.

have to like call my brother who's like. way into computers and ask him. And then. half the time John would just have his. cap locks on. [laughter] There was no. light on the thing. And like, you know, >> I saw that rat's nest of wires under his. table. >> Oh, god. >> I had to sleep on that floor the first. number of times. And I was, yeah, cuz I. didn't have a ton of money. And it was. like I was going out there every weekend. that I could, you know, and buying the. gas and, >> you know, so he let me stay after some. time. Would let me stay at his place. >> I I graduated to George Knapp's place. He he put had mercy on me after he saw.

my living conditions, you know. Um, but. yeah, it was just many years of getting. to know these guys. And that's why I can. tell you for a matter of fact that John. Lear um was not a dis a paid. disinformation guy from the CIA. I've. heard that a bunch, right? Dude couldn't. even tie his own shoelaces properly, you. know, because of his illness and stuff. He just didn't have it in him. He. believed the things he would tell you. unless he was testing you and and. telling you things just to see how far.

he could make you, you know, go. >> He believed some far out stuff, man. >> He He did. He did. >> What did he get right? >> Yeah, that was the the interesting. stuff. It was a lot of the Area 51 stuff. because he'd have pilots come over from. Nellis when I was there and he would, you know, he still had a lot of. connections within intelligence agencies. and he was like this guy that people. would just talk to. Um, for some reason, maybe because they knew there would be. no judgment because he didn't have a.

bullshit meter. John didn't like he. would just take everything as gospel. It. was it was super bizarre to me. And I. don't know if that was just later in his. life or if he was always like that, but. he was definitely a safe person to talk. with other than the fact that, you know, he he would blab about it. You to be. careful of that. >> Yep. >> You know, but but I think a lot of. people came to him because he wouldn't. judge him. They could tell him the. weirdest stuff that has ever happened to. them, what they saw, and he he would. just listen. And that was really cool to.

document that over the years of him just. absorbing people's um traumas, their. stories, you know. >> Did you facilitate that meeting with. Sleeper? The guy was it Lou Bowden is. his name? >> Lou. Yeah. I really like Lou. Like um. >> you know that's the thing with. intelligence agents too. Like even when. they've tried to entrap me before like. straight up Sure. >> I've had to give that to my lawyer. >> I can still like somebody like they're. doing a job right. The Lou the Lou. Balden thing was was pretty weird to me.

>> Lear would talk about this guy Sleeper. who came to Earth on a craft. But the. way he would talk about him was like UFO. Jesus, you know, like everything this. guy says is so. >> and it it just really perplexed me cuz. John is was hyper smart. You know, he. could um he could draw photo realism. John Lair. >> with a pencil. >> Really? >> Yeah. He's a fucking genius. No question. >> No question. Yeah. So I was like, "John, you can draw." He goes, "Yeah, I draw,

you know." Well, photo voter realism. He. goes, "Yeah." I go, "Well, show me one.". He goes into this big old thing, pulls. out. What does he draw? A urinal. Like. that was [laughter] that was so John. Leair. It was a perfect porcelain. manstanding urinal. I'm like, "Gorgeous." Just [laughter] just. gorgeous urinal. But that was so Lear, you know? >> Genius and crazy. They're right next to. each other. >> Yeah. I asked him if he thought he was. crazy and he laughed at me, you know, >> but did he answer it? >> Yeah. He goes, "No." He goes, "If I am,

it's it's been a fun ride." He goes, "But uh no, I know what I'm saying is. true." And um he was he was committed to. that. So the things he got right was a. lot of like the the test site stuff. Like how he got prominence in the first. place was he went into Ned Day, which is. um. >> George Knap's mentor in journalism. Yeah. and he's he told him about the. stealth fighter, right, which was um at. the time a very top secret uh plane and. to the point where the FBI come in and.

they start shaking down Ned Day. And Ned. Day finally says, "Look, I'm a small Las. Vegas, Nevada reporter. If I can find. out about the stealth fighter, then you. sure as shit the Russians and the. Chinese know as well. I did you a favor, right?" So John had really come in and. broken helped them break a couple really. good stories. He had so many sources and. contacts out um at Area 51 at Nellis in. general and in these other agencies that.

he would get, you know, nuggets of. truth, the stuff that, you know, come to. find out 20 years later that he was. right about 51 and this or that. So he. had a lot of good information but but. zero filter. If he if somebody he. trusted said, "We got people living on. the sun." He would tell you, "We got. people living on the sun." And you just. kind of sit back like, "Does he really. believe it?" And um I come to find out. some of it he did. Like um he told me, "Did he believed that his soul that like.

our souls are being harvested by the on. the moon that story by Lou. >> to the best of my assessment, John Ler. firmly believed that and. >> cuz I saw I in the movie it was such a. crazy sequence. I'm glad Michael put it. in there. >> Yeah. >> Where Luke says, >> "But John Leer, he's got a ticket, >> right? >> Out out of the out of the prison. planet." And John's like, "Is my ticket. still good?" He's like, "Yeah, yeah, good." He's like, "Okay, cool.". I mean, so you're describing something. in the movie that I think I hope when.

people see that why I think Michael left. that in the movie is because that does. show you he's sitting there in the. sunset of his life and this guy Lou. Balden wrote him a thing basically a. pass to to get through the the pearly. gates or something and and he firmly. believed that they let he left a lot of. stuff out of the movie. Um it was really. uncomfortable for me. So, I got I got um. Lou and I bring him in and I want them. to meet because this is kind of one of. John Ler's like dying wishes was to go. to 51, which we did again by the way.

before he died. Yeah. I took him out to. the Rachel Bar and Grill and. >> we got shook down by two intelligence. because they know John L. of course. >> Yeah. So, but they were like overt. It. was bad contact. They come up to me. inside of um inside of the the A in they. called it. >> and they're standing right by where my. batteries are charging in the wall and. my backpacks. I can't get around them. >> And they there's a man and a woman and. they uh they say, "Hey, uh Jeremy, what.

are you filming?" And I go, "I'm just uh. filming some interviews with like uh. John Lair." They go, "Well, you know, I. I said, "How how did you get here?" Cuz. I I didn't see him walk in. And they're. like, "We flew in." And I'm like. thinking to myself, "Oh, they're they're. trying to flex on me because the only. people flying in are coming from the. base." So they identified themselves as. naval intelligence. And they said to me, >> "Where's Bob Lazar?" Which is just this. bizarre thing for me to, you know, where's Bob Lazar? >> Because you didn't connect with Bob yet. >> No, I had not met Bob Lazar. And I was.

filming with John Leer. This is like my. my indoctrination into the high. stranges, right? I'm standing there and. they're they're really trying to be. ominous like trying to press me a little. bit. I never experienced that before. that time with agents. And I was just. being a kind of shithead. I go, "He's. right there." And there's a photo of. Lazar on the wall. So, I was kind of. taking the piss out of him. >> Oh, and I does not have a sense of humor. about this. >> Right. Right. [laughter] Um, and so, yeah, stone cold face like that. They. didn't even look where I was pointing my.

finger and they're like, "You're not. thinking about going over the gates, are. you?" I go, "Oh, no. I wouldn't think. about doing that. I I hear there's a. $600 fine if you do that." Like I. [laughter] was just like. >> messing around. So at the time John was. sleeping in the car cuz he take a lot of. naps, you know, so he had kind of was. done with it and I had just been. interviewing. >> You were safer with the Serbian dude. than here. >> Yeah. Yeah, quite possibly. Um no, they. were they were just trying to flex on. me, dude. And um. >> so John's like just passed out in the. car in my Scion Toyota. He's like, you.

know, fold the seat back. He's. completely snoring. I come to the. window. I'm like, dude, we got to go. like that. [laughter] And he go, "What? What?" And I go, there's just the two on. the the female and male. They're in. there. They're um O and I they just, you. know, started asking me. He goes, you. met aliens. That was that was John's. reaction. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. John's. reaction was you met aliens and they. they came to shake us down. >> So we didn't go um to the gates after. that because I I come to realize they. know we're there, you know, and uh but. he got to see, you know, kind of the.

proximity of Area 51 again before he. died. That was pretty neat. And then he. wanted to meet Lou. So, I flew Lou in on. a Southwest flight and he comes in and. you see their very first meeting and. interaction. What you don't see, because. I guess the Michael said the movie's not. about that, but what you don't see is. like they go out into the tennis courts. um that John had. They were all. overgrown, looked like a zombie tennis. court. Nobody had played there for 20. years. And. >> wow. Wow. You know, we wheel him out and. they sit there and I film it and John's.

like crying and he's like, you know, I I. I don't want to go yet because of Damian. who is his grandson and Damian had kind. of some hard things happen in his life. But that's when I could see that he's. like talking to this guy Sleeper Lou. Baldin and he really believes that, you. know, there are soul catchers that the. aliens are involved and he's worried. about his son who he's known or sorry, his uh grandson who he's known has been.

abducted. And I don't know, man. I call. this UFO disease. It's like when people. get so deep into this and they don't. know the answers. We don't know the. answers. We like to fill it with what. feels best to us. And I really fight. against that. I've heard it all, man. I've heard every theory from incredible. people. >> Y. >> I don't know the answer. And so I'm not. going to fill it in because I've seen. that go wrong with everybody, man. >> But you naturally want to fill it in. >> You want to.

>> So you just leave the hole there. >> Leave the hole. Be Be okay with it. >> You and Michael should talk about doing. like an extended cut. So, I'd love to. see some of that stuff. >> Yeah, it's awesome. >> Um, it was kind of heartbreaking to see. your relationship with John. Those last. sequences were rough, man. >> Yeah. >> When he died, were you not on good. terms? >> We were not on good terms. Um, basically what happened was, so I've. been filming for a number of years and, you know, the idea was, hey, um, I'm.

going to make a movie out of this. footage. and you know that made him feel. good and that was the plan to do so. Um. but what happened was he stopped my. ability to do that. He basically signed. over you know his life rights to a. family member on a napkin which. completely cut out my ability to have. autonomy on the film. So at that time I. had gotten very close with George. We. had started working together. There was. a trust that we built over time. And I. had also met Lazar and I had always told.

Lazar I was like three minutes of you. talking would would mean so much to the. world right now because everybody for. for over a decade has I mean probably. longer than that has been lying about. you. And I know that now knowing you and. I've known all your friends and I've. I've I've heard from you this stuff. Just let me push record for like 3. minutes. And that's that funny scene. where when he actually first comes in. >> Well, hang on. We'll get to Bob in a. second. I I want to know what was going.

on. >> when he signed away the rights. Was Is. that just a fuck you to you? >> You know, he. >> you were there for you. I mean, you you. helping him put a shirt on. >> I know. >> Pillows on the couch. >> You know, I I I don't I don't know. He. he was a complicated guy. And I think. that I I don't want to say it. I I just. feel like maybe people were taking. advantage of him a little bit, you know, like everybody thought he was a meal. ticket, you know? So, I just like I.

don't know why he did that. >> I don't know why. I I didn't take it. personally, right? >> No, I didn't take it personally. It was. like, you know, he had a tumultuous. situation going on in his life. If you. just kind of look through public record, >> tumultuous situation and I feel like he. said it to me like this is what we're up. against. And I go, "What do you mean. this is what we're up against? Like why. did you do that? Like it it cuts out I'm. like I have I have literally done this. for all these years and I have nothing.

that I can like this doesn't help get a. movie made about you." So I just kind of. like it just didn't feel right anymore. I didn't take it personally like it. didn't I understand his psychology. It. just I don't know if he was at the time. of right mind when he did that. He was. on a lot of pain pills and stuff. You. mentioned that that he wasn't getting. the right care at the end. >> That that's, you know, I'm not one to. judge that. I just um Yeah, I would say. I would say it didn't feel right to me. >> He didn't look good. >> He did not look good.

>> He flatlined once uh in between our. filmings. Um that's that call you hear. He's not doing so good. I say come out. cuz he had flatlined earlier that week. So we knew he was kind of like, you. know, not long for this earth. Um, so. but he ended up living longer and long. enough to be pissed at me. But what he. was pissed about was I ended up making a. film that I could make and it wasn't. about him and I think that really pissed. him off and then he had some poisonous. people in his ears, you know, saying. that I just used him that whole time to.

get to Lazar or something like that. Not. true. >> No. >> And and George knows that. Everybody. that was there know that I really in. good faith was trying to make that film. He made it impossible. You know, >> it's clear it was in good faith. >> Yeah. >> All right. So, then uh I guess you get a. call from John or John tells you, "Hey, Bob's coming over.". >> Well, I was actually there already. >> You were there at at John's house. >> I was at John's house. And he had always. kind of said this thing that like, you. know, oh, Lazar might come over for my.

birthday cuz I filmed a couple of his. birthdays at that point. So, he was. always kind of using that as like a, you. know, come down and hang out with me and. bring me some Philly Titans, you know, fix some toilets. >> Bob could show up. Bob can show up, you. know. So, I didn't fall for that. anymore. But then sure enough, one day. >> um I guess Bob was in town and I was. there and um he called through and. respectfully I turned off the camera. when they were talking cuz uh Lear would. always want me to film every time he was. on a call with like Dr. Mitchell and all. these people and I just it just felt. weird cuz they didn't know, you know?

Right. So, I'd turn off the camera. >> You really did? >> Yeah. Every time. Yeah. Cuz I I don't. This is Yes. I'm not like um. >> a lot of a lot of dudes would would. roll. >> But then how you gonna use it? >> I don't know. >> Can't use it. Can't use it. >> It's not moral to use it. >> It's not. >> Yeah. Unless Unless you unless you ask. them after. >> Yeah. Your morality got in the way of. >> Well, now now I record everything. So So. now like my my life now everything is. recorded. Like I have Nest cameras in my. house and they're 24/7. Every call is on. speakerphone. That's for my own. So no.

one can lie about what I say, which. people have tried to do, >> of course. So everything is documented. to a high degree in my life now. >> So did you tell Bob in advance? We're. not rolling. You're we're good. >> Yeah. So I actually took the um camera. and tripod and everything and the. recorder and I put them away. >> Oh, nice. >> Just so that when he came in cuz I. didn't know it was like, you know, you. trap a feral animal. Like I didn't know. what he was thinking. He had not come. public at all and you had just seen. people saying all this garbage about. him. And again, I know all his friends.

now so I know it's bullshit. So when he. comes. >> like 2012 or so. >> I'm so bad with that. But probably. around we can look at the time stamp on. the footage. >> But John died I think in 2016. >> Okay, that makes sense. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I mean, so I I have to go back to. footage and look at timestamps to know. exact dates, but. >> just like Bob wasn't super famous. >> No. So that was the whole thing. It. wasn't in pop culture and so I didn't. want him to feel trapped and you know, Lear just wanted anything to be filmed. at all times. So, I put away all the. cameras and stuff and then Bob comes in.

with joy and they just have a pow-wow. and they're laughing doing all this. stuff and then I see my kind of opening. and I say, "Look, I I don't know if. you're telling the truth or not. Like, I. have no judgment on it. I would I would. love to know, but here's what I do know. And I do know that people are saying the. craziest stories about you that aren't. true. It's very targeted. They're trying. to dismiss you. Like, can I just turn on. the camera for 3 minutes? It will make a. huge difference. you know, put it out on. the internet. I was thinking something. like that.

And he said, "Yeah." So, I I just got. the cameras turn around and that and. that's the first footage you see. Actually made like a short little film. about it because he went far longer than. 3 minutes and that's the first time you. hear Bob Lazar put his foot down and. say, "I know that UFOs are real. I was. inside one. I know they're made with a a. a science and a material that we we have. never been able to make." Um, and he. just went on this rant and John was. looking at me like, "Holy shit." Because.

he had never heard Bob stand up for. himself in that way. So, I knew that. that was an important moment to to learn. about who Lazar really is. And. >> how how did you get him to do that? Was. this another grandma moment? >> I asked No, I asked him. I said, "Can I. just film the three minute? Can I film a. little bit?" And he goes, "Sure." And. then I said that thing before like, "I. don't know if you're telling the truth, but I know people filling in voids." And. however I set it up, he just unloaded. And that was the coolest thing cuz. imagine me, I'm like, I had always heard.

about this guy Lazar, especially from. John and all those people. And he's. throwing down. I'm looking at him being. like, "Oh, that's not that he does not. seem like a liar to me right now.". >> He does not. Now, I had cause to believe. or to know. that a lot of what Lazar talked about is. actual, but I didn't know if Lazar had. been there and that he had seen the. things he said he saw. That's what kind. of started me on this is that I I had.

previous understanding that this was. likely true, but I didn't know was he. being used as like a disinformation guy, you know? I didn't know. Mhm. >> But I get to know him, get to know. everybody around him. I see how they. some of them don't like each other, how. they don't. I'm like, this is not some. big conspiracy. They are all telling it. from their perspectives. The one thing. they agree on is that Lazar did work out. there, that he did have the job he said. he did, and that all these little things. happened like he'd come back to Leers. and kind of spill some beans and John's.

like, "Dude, [clears throat] don't come. over here after working out there. They're going to, you know, they're. going to follow you." So, it was like. this crazy time where George Knapp and. all them were being followed. And George. will tell you, he's like, "You had to. have been there to really understand. what that pressure was like." He goes, "My newsroom was tapped." He goes, "Now. we all think, oh, NSA, we're all. tapped." He goes, "Not back then. Back. then to tap a newsroom was unbelievable. at the time." And so, it was it was a. different era. So, there's Bob. He says. his thing, he leaves. John's like, "I.

have never heard him talk like that.". And I said, 'Well, maybe maybe, you. know, he's sick of it. Maybe he wants to. show people who he is now, right? Because it's a natural thing. People. shit on you for 10 years, and at some. point, you're going to get pissed. >> Yep. >> And and Bob is not a pushover. >> No, >> he's a gentle guy, but don't piss him. off. >> You can see him get pissed in his eyes. when he talks about. >> It's hurt his life, man. Of course, >> if you believe anything that he said. about the repercussions of this that.

have happened to his life, which some of. it's public record, you know, being. raided for no reason, um, all this. stuff, it's a way to pressurize the. situation and make you shut up. So, whether you believe him or not about. UFOs, there are some things that we know. about Bob that have happened and it is. it's a pressure cooker, you know. >> Yeah. They he got raided and they. >> multiple times they made his life. miserable. >> They did. where other whistleblowers not. so much, but Bob they did. >> or behind the scenes sometimes with. other whistleblowers. >> Sure. Sure. Um, you were probably the.

first one to bring Bob Lazar to the to. the mainstream. What did you think about. Luigi's movie recently? >> Yeah, I I think it was really important. because Bob has always said um it's. important that people could kind of see. what I saw. So for Bob, it meant a lot. to get those details right because he. said everything he can possibly say, but. he said that saying it is different than. seeing it. And with a big thumbs up, Bob's like, "That's what it looked.

like." And so I think that that's a real. service. I don't know much how much. farther people can dissect his story. because he's said it all. He's shown it. all. There's nothing big he's hiding. from anybody like a name or something. like that. so he can be the judge if. someone's uh fooling him or not. I've. had so many people come to me be like, "I worked with Bob out there, blah blah. blah." And I know the questions to ask. and if I don't, then I put it over to. Bob and he has certain things that he. will hold back just so he knows if. somebody was ever out there or not. You.

know, it's smart, but the core of his. story, there's nothing more that he can. tell. >> No. And he says, "I don't know more. often than not.". >> Right. >> Did you ever come across Dan Burrish in. your travels? >> Yeah. He's full of shit. >> Oh, he's full of shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I But I mean, George has a whole. thing about that, but I I think the. important thing is um about Lazar's. story. So, we were in a different era in. 2018 that was just on the cusp where. things started to change about UFOs. because of the 2017 article and whatnot,

but it was still very much in the. shadows, especially Bob. My movie was. just to show people. >> So, my movie is called Bazar, Area 51, and Flying Saucers. >> I I lucked out. Got a couple movies on. Netflix, one on Hulu. I'd never made a. movie in my life. Again, it's like this. imposter syndrome. I'm not a filmmaker, but I I lucked out with distribution. So, when that movie came out, what I. wanted people to see, I wasn't trying to. prove the details of Lazar's story. I. was trying to humanize him. I want you. to see this is Bob. This is his life.

This is Joy. Oh, by the way, he actually. is a scientist. He works in scientific. capacity. He has a laboratory. He does. inc He is the more science guy that I've. met than most scientists. Like, he's. hands-on physically doing stuff. He's. got a cool business. He's got a cool. life. He's got doggies. So, I just. wanted you as a viewer to see like. you're talking about beyond the. two-dimensional. >> Yes. >> And see him as a person. >> cuz he's flattened his 2D. >> Yeah, man. More than anybody. And so, if. you could see that, I was figuring in my. mind. If you could see what I've seen,

then you have to contend with what he. said in a different way. I'm not. fighting for one side or the other. I. have my own personal um conclusions that. I've come to, but that's what my movie. what I wanted it to do was just to allow. you in so you see him as a human. So. then you have to contend with what he. said in a different way rather than just. dismissing often times based on stuff. that he never said. >> So that was that's what my movie was. about and it burst into pop culture in a.

way I could never Storm 51. I mean I. could never have imagined. >> Yeah, that was you. It was going to get. crazy. >> That was you. >> Well, that was a kid named Maddie. >> I know, but. >> Well, he watched the Rogan episode Bob. and then he watched the movie and he. started a meme and it started something. that was so out of control that George. and I were like, "hm, maybe we should. take a little control of this and try to. make it like a good thing." So, he. George went to report on it and I like. called a crazy ass musician who I didn't. even know he was like popular and had.

him come out. tried to tried to steer. the conversation rather than it being. >> Did you get a call from somebody like, "Dude, if this is you.". >> Um, no. I was never officially reached. out to. >> Okay. >> in formal capacity. >> by the FBI or Department of Justice on. that one. >> On that one. [snorts]. >> On that one. But they definitely uh uh. made it. >> they were definitely present at the. event overtly badged, >> of course. Right. Terrible. >> Yeah. They no one no one blamed me for.

that. It was it was something out of. control and pop culture. But that is. just to show that people were so hungry. to hear about the UFO stuff that even. now to this day I think it's the most. popular podcast um on on Joe's is was. with Lazar, the first Lazar. Yes, it is. >> It really it it it punctured something. into pop culture and that was really. neat. So I think the new movie is. amazing because you get to see according. to Bob what he saw and I think that's. cool. Um, there are a couple of key moments in in.

UFO history. I One of them would be. probably Bill Moore's book about. Roswell. >> Another one is your movie about Lazar. Do you do you feel that? Do you do you. realize how much part of history you. are? >> So, no. Um, in the. >> No. And and that's always people have. said that to me before things. I have no. rearview mirror, man. I am like a. forwardlooking. I'm just like no. rearview mirror. I I I I I know that. George and I have made some noise. I.

know that we brought out a bunch of. military videos. Um I'm glad the world. is embracing this mystery, but I I don't. you know, I've got more questions than. answers. Man, we're like we're just. starting with this thing. I think. >> was Lazar the first time you used the. totem pole expression. >> like you wanted to make a totem pole is. something that's woripped or something. that's burned. >> Okay. >> Was that. >> I don't know. >> It was something you said a while ago. I.

thought it was really interesting. >> Right. I don't know. >> The reason I ask it is because. you're kind of becoming that as well. >> as a totem pole. It's um. >> they're going to burn me. >> They're trying to. >> Yeah, I noticed that. >> But there's also you also have. followers. >> Mhm. >> There's an esquetology. There's. >> Here here's here's what's what's weird. is. >> What's esquetology? >> Just a a belief system. >> Mhm.

>> You're a leader of a belief system. Almost a faith. You're almost like a. faith leader. >> I don't know if you feel that. >> No. Um, you're always up against. compartmentalization, >> all these different things. And yet I. see in your methodology, encrypted files, information that comes. out, it's it's very planned. You're. compartmentalizing. Do you ever do is that a tension for you.

that you're kind of doing what they're. doing? >> Okay. The the idea that I'm a gatekeeper. to something. Is that the idea? No, cuz. this isn't an attack question. >> Yeah. >> No, I'm open to any question. I want to. clarify things that people. misunderstand. >> So, >> but I'm glad you brought up gatekeeping. I didn't I didn't think. >> I've been accused of that. Like I I of. course my mom will send me when people. say nasty shit about me online. But I. can I I would like the right to explain. to people what journalism is like, what. we have to go through, how we have to. protect sources. The the last thing that.

that George and I are doing is holding. information back. Look at our history. We have put out more than anybody when. it comes to these things that should not. be seen and we don't do it lightly. Every time you do that, you put a a. source at risk every single time. And. the footage isn't even as good as when. the government puts it out. If I put. something out with George, all of a. sudden people are saying, "Well, what's. the frame rate? The frame rate's off, you know, blah blah blah." Like, we take. shit for it. All we're trying to do is. put out the best we got. Now, when the. government puts out a piece of footage, it's directly off a server. There's no.

frame rate discussion. There's no source. that's that's getting um in a. compromised situation. >> The onus is on our government. They have. said. >> that they're going to be transparent. about UFOs. All we've been doing is. journalism. We've been provoking truth. We've been provoking the release of data. and information. It's not like we we. stand behind every piece of footage of. that's an alien spacecraft. We've never. that's not our position. We're trying to. get the stuff that is being hidden, that. is a public interest, if it is safe to.

do for sources and, you know, for. America. Last thing I want to do is hurt. our country, right? Trying to get it out. to the public. It's much better when our. government does it like they said they. were going to do. So, I'm not holding. anything back. I am thoughtfully and. respectfully trying to get as much out. as possible with George that doesn't. compromise sources because that is my. number one obligation. >> 100%. >> Yeah. If someone comes to you and they.

provide you something sensitive, you. need to assess cuz you're you I'm going. to be on the hook for it with George. You need to assess. Is it going to blow. back and hurt sources? And if it is, um. >> can't do it. >> I I don't I wouldn't feel good about. myself. >> You you can't do it. >> Yeah. Um, so speaking of George, >> I get accused of that, by the way, all. the time. >> Of what? >> Of of gatekeeping. Like I'm doing what. the government's doing. I'm Dude, I'm. doing the opposite, man. >> No, it's I'm just more I'm worried about. you, I guess, having all these pieces.

scattered around. >> Mhm. >> Like if something happens, you have a. plan. >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, George and I do. Yeah. Like I've said before, like. there's there's everything that we've. ever accumulated is not going to go lost. if something goes wrong with me and. George. like very simple, you know, over. the years to to make sure that um some. there's no dead end with our reporting, a simple process. Actually, >> something you said in the movie that. it's going to frustrate a lot of people, but there's no way around it is there's.

some stuff that you guys have to hold. back because of national security. because you just have to. >> You want me to give you a concrete. example. >> if you want. I mean, because there's no. defense for that. Like it's like guys, I'd love to tell you about this, but we. can't. We really. >> Well, there is a defense for it. I mean, um, so big picture, holding back for. national security, like that's not my. job. I'm not qualified to, my lawyer. will tell you I'm not qualified to. assess that kind of thing. I I will tell.

you though that it is has been made. incredibly clear to me that for example. if there's a Russian submarine that is. breaching and there are in thermal there. are two lenticular objects coming from. left of screen to the right. Now will. that one piece of footage. >> crack the egg? Is it better than a piece. of footage without a a Russian submarine. in it? Right. >> Y.

>> um No, it's not. >> Right. >> So, >> when you're assessing, you know, with national security in. mind, I have been told directly that. that that type of footage is really bad. for American defense. So, the question. becomes, what's the the value in a piece. of footage compared to others? Now, I'm. I'm I I have nothing like that. things. like that have passed in front of my. eyes. I'm familiar with that kind of. stuff. Um I've been shown a lot more. than I've ever George and I have ever um.

obtained. >> But the defense for national security is. very simple. It it's not on me to. release that kind of thing. Our. government has said we're going to open. the books on it. Now, we're watching. We. want to make sure. But if I had to. choose um what George and I report on, if something's going to give away a. strategic advantage um that the US. doesn't want taken away, then I have to. think about that like a person, too. >> You do. >> Yeah. So, I just I understand, you know, everybody wants everything out, all that.

stuff. We're not in a position to make. that choice a lot of the time. >> I'm 100% with you. that why would. somebody ever also give journalists. something like that when you've seen. that George and I have put stuff out. that has not endangered national. security. So even though I'm aware of. something doesn't mean I'm in position. to um actuate it into public domain. >> It's annoying. >> I It's annoying but I I there's no way. >> I'm doing my Look, I'm doing my best. If. somebody can do better, they should do.

it. Yeah. >> No, nobody could do better. Um, >> well, hope hopefully people will. >> It's be you have the right moral center. for it. Like you're you're you were. chosen for this. No one else could do. this. Um, tell me about how you and. George hooked up. That's an amazing. >> team of man. Poor man. He's the best. >> What a legend. >> Yeah. >> And it's so cool cuz you go from you go. Ned Day who's like his mentor. Someone. comes into the newsroom. Ned Day says. UFOs if it if I don't know about it, it.

didn't happen. And George says, "I'll. track it down.". >> And here you are, >> right? >> You're you're like you're you're the. next. >> Yeah. >> You're just carrying the same torch. >> Yeah. He's really um Yeah, I was really. shocked, man. The way George, you know, cuz I'm I haven't hadn't made any movies. or anything like that. And I've told. this story before, but it was just it. was really hard to get to George. Uh you. know, harder than the president during. an election. I said, but it's true. He. has all these like layers like and he. just doesn't answer his phone a lot. And. as he's gets older too, definitely. doesn't answer his [laughter] phone. But.

it was like at the time I I just hit. this sweet spot and I just remember that. he, you know, I get on the phone with. him and he just unloaded and it was. probably the longest conversation that. we had ever had to date. It was almost. like a pressure valve and you know, I. said, "Look, I'm not trying to like um, you know, I'm not trying to hurt. anybody. I just want to know the truth.". You know, >> did he know you? How did he trust you? I. I I I just called the news station. I. emailed a few times over the course of.

two years. I reached out kind of. respected, you know, without being like. um too much trying to get through. You've probably experienced that. >> And um just hit a sweet spot. So finally. he his news director called me back and. I was totally unprepared for this call. and he goes, "Hold for George Nap." I'm. like, "Whoa, whoa, what? Hold for George. Knap." And then he took mercy on me. He's like, "Can I give you a piece of. advice?" I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "Know what you have to say. Say it. succinctly and just listen." Okay.

>> Yes, sir. [laughter]. >> So, I did that, you know. I mean, is. Jeremy Corb just really worth. and then uh George just unloads and he. tells me, "Here's what I know. Here's. what I don't know. Here's here's here's. what I suspect." You know, it's just. kind of these three things he did. And. and and then, you know, it was like the. first time I went over to his place and. I told him, "I'm working on this thing. I want to make this film on Lear, but. it's really confusing. >> What are you feeling? What are you. feeling on the drive to George Knap's. house? >> Uh, fuck. I I don't know. Um,

>> I wasn't really in this world. I wasn't. really in the UFO world, you know? So, it was just, >> you know, like I'm I'm driving to George. Nap. >> I don't really get nervous about stuff. cuz I don't think it through a lot of. the time. I'm just kind of just straight. up honest. I just don't I just kind of. go, you know, and um I'm oftentimes in. rooms I shouldn't be in and like I only. reflect on that later like why the fuck. am I here? Um so I just felt like. excited like maybe I'm going to get a. little bit more truth, you know, but.

then George and I just hit it off, man. You know, we're talking and probably not. a lot of people could have held the. conversation with so many details about. it like I could. It was almost like Lear. was like I was training for my black. belt with you know and like you know. learning some of the crazy and it was so. relieving to hear George Knap say well. that's fucking bonkers or no let me tell. you a real story about that. So he. probably enjoyed the idea that he could. tell me what he had been going through. with all these characters over time. So. it was just kind of neat. And then I. think one of the first things we did we.

called Nellis together and I I filmed. this. Yeah man. Um, and it's different. than when I call Nellis and ask about. site 4 and all this stuff. And when. George Knap calls Nellis, they take it. very seriously. >> Really? >> Yes. Because he's George motherfucking. Nap. Right. >> And so he's the lead investigative. reporter of Las Vegas, Nevada for like. at the time like 30 plus years. So I was. like, "Yeah, man. I've been trying. I. can't get through to Ni." So I remember. we sit down and he calls the public. information officer who he knew, right?

[laughter]. And so like um they're like, "Mr. Naba, we'll get back to you. And it was a. specific question about uh any. designation of S4 or site 4. >> on the base. And when they actually left. an audio message, so so I I recorded. that as well. I don't know if I've ever. put it out, but they're they're like, "We have no" and he's kind of giggling. He's kind of laughing. He's like, "We. have no sight for specifically. designated on our maps." You know, so he. was trying to tell George, "Yeah, of.

course we got a site for you already. called, you know, 10 years ago." No, we. do. But it was a cool um thing. So So. yeah, with with George, we kind of uh. together we've had a lot of fun being. able to um ask the hard questions. >> He says it in the movie and it's great. He said almost word for word like I love. catching them in bullshit. >> He does. He loves. >> He's such a warrior. So, one time I go. to um the Atomic Testing Museum, and.

this is really before George and I had. worked a lot together. And there was the. head of the CIA's um history person, a. historian, and then a guy who is head of. science and technology at Area 51. This. is all filmed. You can see it on like. online. And they're having some panel. and it's all about Area 51, all the cool. things that happen there. And George is. like hosting it and I'm in the front row. with my Canon 5D like [laughter] this. and he goes, "I think I think that guy. has a question over there." So he like. threw me in and I go, "Are you aware of.

a movie called UFOs past, present, and. future fully funded by the CIA?". essentially the CIA historian and they. talk about and I just did this whole. thing and they like whisper to each. other like it got a little tense cuz I. was like the UFO guy. But that was the. first time George kind of threw me in as. the harpoon to ask the questions that. nobody else was going to ask. >> Was that in the movie? >> No, that's not. >> because there was a whisper answer in. the movie as well. >> Did he show He might have shown a clip. of that. Yeah, he might have showed that. was um Petite is his last name. He was.

the lead historian for the CIA. >> You just see them take the question, they whisper. >> Yes. Okay. It was and like we had. >> So he showed a clip of that. There's a. there's a longer version so you can see. what I asked. >> Oh, I'd like to see that. Yeah, >> but that was my first experience of. George kind of like I guess trusting me. enough to throw me in like a harpoon to. ask a question. I think that kind of. like started it off for us a little bit. >> And then man, shit just really blew up. um in the UFO land after we started. working together with OAP and the ATIP.

and all the stuff. It was really be. became something. So it was good timing. How did you and George decide to start. the podcast? >> I think I just roped him into it. I like. um I told him I was like, "Man, you. know, every time we do something like I. I put it out on my like little website. or it was actually Rogan who who who. told me you got to film a podcast. Why?". And he goes, "Cuz do you think there. would have been a viral moment if you.

just heard Elon smoking a joint?" And. I'm like, "Oh, that's a good point.". Like so the idea of filming it kind of. came to us and I you know he does his. new he had you know full-time news guy. and I was just putting stuff out on the. extraordinary beliefs website for my. films and I I was just like man you know. we could do something where we just go. after these stories do it together. I. kind of you know just pull them into it. man and I think he's enjoyed it so far. Sometimes he gets mad at me. It's a lot. of work that. >> I mean that was my next question is like.

what do you and George disagree on about. this stuff? I mean, because you've admitted that. he's more skeptical or he's harder to. convince. >> Depends on what. So, like I Yeah. I. mean, like I I I would I'm like allergic. to the paranormal ideas like you know. that just to be honest like I don't. grasp that stuff. >> That's what I like about you. >> Yeah. And I just um so for me that's a. heavier lift, but I've learned a lot by.

being more open to what those stories. mean. And you know the my the litmus. test I think you call it for me was like. being thrown into the opportunity to go. to Skinwalker Ranch before it was. >> you know popularized in this way. So I I. really had to kind of open myself up to. understanding the UFO phenomenon if you. just listen to people. >> is far more complicated than potentially. just spaceships coming from other.

planets. But it makes me uncomfortable. like I'm not qualified. I don't know who. is but that's where we kind of you know. he has more experience with that kind of. stuff. >> What does he what does he think he. thinks is a physical craft? No, I I'd say it's the opposite. Like I. came from the, you know, kind of nuts. and bolts, but he had experienced so. many other things and was much more. informed. You know, he he had a fly on. the wall opportunity with a lot of these. government programs. You know, you want. to start a conspiracy, George Knap has.

been at the center of everything. >> Everything. I mean the reason why Lazar. comes forward, the reason why Harry Reid. was interested in this, how the OAP got. created, OAP would not I don't think OAP. would have gotten created if it wasn't. for George Knap because it was his book. that sparked the interest of Dr. Latsky. So a lot of what we're seeing today, if. you want to start a conspiracy, it. centers around or at least George Knap. was in the room for a lot of it. You. know, it was a really interesting life. that he had. >> Uh the movie is worth watching just to.

see George's house. >> [laughter]. >> It's like it it fulfills every fan. The. Emmys are lined up. The Peabody, the the. books, the the the video tape. Did you. guys ever find that video tape you were. looking for? That crazy tape. >> Which one? >> I just I forget what. >> the one in the brown case that shows the. full cloud chamber test that was done. over. Man, I have torn apart his entire. house over a 15 almost 15 year period. probably. I mean, I have digitized every. blank tape I could find. um that even.

Bob is so pissed that they had like. given that to a trustworthy news. reporter to never lose and what did. George just hide it in the best hiding. place possible? Now he's had things go. missing before which has been an issue. but this was like in a nondescript brown. case. It's supposed to show I mean. everybody that was there I told I know. everybody that was there. did a cloud. chamber test to see if you could bend. light with what Bob said was element 115.

in a puck. >> and George not being a scientific guy he. said it looked like the light was bent. the other science uh science people that. were there in a home situation all. described the same thing so that tape. allegedly has that and they did give it. to George for safekeeping I mean he is. so pissed at himself about this but I'll. tell you why there's hope he just found. a whole bunch of stuff from the his. Russian travels. >> that like had never been digitized. >> Wow.

>> Because his his house is like a museum. of tapes and papers and you know he'll. just find stuff sometimes. So to answer. your question, no. >> Would it show what I think we're all. hoping which is a bending of the light? Um they all say that that's is what. happened. Everybody that's there that. don't have cause to lie about it, right? Um it would be proof of something but it. wouldn't be the ultimate proof. No, but. >> it'd be something. It'd be something. >> Um, yeah, you guys got to digitize that. that Russian stuff.

>> He is. Yeah, they're they're already the. kid. The kid, Michael, actually. Now. I've got my successor, Michael. He's. [laughter] doing the hard work now. Yeah, >> the kid. >> Yeah, the kid. Well, I don't I call a. kid. He's younger than me. >> All right, we'll take a quick break. We'll come back. We'll talk UFOs. >> Okay. >> You probably probably get a lot of shit, a lot of email, a lot of stuff. >> You could say that. So, I've heard you. >> I take a lot and [laughter] get a lot of. emails. >> I've heard you say. if you want to get your story out, I'm. not the guy to call.

>> Right. >> So, what when you get something, how do. you vet it? Like, how do you spot. bullshit right away? Cuz I'm sure you it. you do. What makes you go. >> sometimes it takes some time. >> and sometimes you go could be serious. What's that process? >> Right. Yeah. I mean, look, um, one day I. will fuck up and you know, it' be kind. to me if I do. We're doing our best, but. you know what I learned? Actually, it's. funny. You know, you were saying, you. know, George is one way, I'm the other.

Like, I I'll argue with him that I am. way more patient. You know, he's like a. news guy. He's like ready to go, you. know. Um, I'm more like the the the. human guy, you know. I take my time, you. know, just um sometimes really like. years with people because they might. have told me or shown me something. really great, >> but I'm always feeling like people are. trying to hurt me, dude. You know, I'm. always trying to see that people trying. to trip me up because I know it to be.

true because I've had interference. And. that's a big point I want to get to. about the movie is what we wanted you to. understand. you know, the movie is. really about journalism in my. perspective and why it even exists. But. before that, um, Cosmic Time. So, my aha moment with the UFO thing didn't. come in the form of like a video or. something like that. It it came in the. form of government influence.

And I didn't I didn't realize, you know, how people say you have intelligence. agencies baked into the subculture. Okay. So, I'm I guess I was a little. naive. I like, okay, cool story, grandpa. Like, you know, oh, you're you. know, your computer's being hacked. Okay. Uh, cool story. You got your caps. lock on. You know, I was just always. this guy like feeling like the world's. out to help me and not hurt me, right? Yeah. So that was but that was always. like um what do you call instead of.

paranoia proninoia right you know. everybody's trying to help me what's. going on you know. >> did you know about Richard Dodie you. know and I back in the day. >> of course but I figured that the guy's. like doing his job and then I don't I. don't know yeah I guess I knew about. that so I guess I should have been more. [laughter] I should have been more. thoughtful about it right um but there's. always many sides to that story like the. way it was told to me from the Dodie you. know individuals is that it really. didn't take much to tip him over the. edge with his belief system.

>> Correct. >> So that that's why you have to be so. careful, man, with what you choose to. believe rather than have evidence for. >> But for me, the aha moment was just the. amount. of covert intelligence agency influence. on the UFO space. And when I started. interfacing with that, they quickly. found out that I must have good sources. because I could find out if somebody's. up to something. >> Can you give an any examples?

>> Sure. Okay. >> Um, they call it false friendship where. you have somebody reach out to you and. they're like a big fan of your work. They're they're NSA. >> All a bunch of us at NSA, you know, watch your show with you and George and, you know, all this stuff. Cool. Cool. You know, they're at like, let's say, Wright Patterson. They got a little. office. They got some weaponized stuff. around. [snorts] They take a little. photo, which I don't think they should. be doing. Wow. This is a cool. >> I get these, too, man. Yeah. Oh, Missile.

Command is a fan of my show. I didn't. know that. >> Yeah. Well, so it's kind And look, maybe. they are. I don't want to be like, you. know, maybe they are, man. I've had. people come from Locky, from Boeing. I've had people come up to me at a bar. because I I sometimes I go hang out at. this bar where all the employees uh come. out from all the aerospace companies. Really? >> Yeah. I'll take you one time. You're in. California. It's pretty cool. So, I. always go sit out there and it's funny. because the the gray shirts will come. out. I believe that's Lockheed. And the. black shirts will come out. I guess it's. Rathon. And there's just this one pub. And I'll just sit there, man, like you.

know, like like bait, you know? I just. sit there and then eventually somebody. always breaks from the fold and like. comes up and they they say strange. things like one guy says, "History's. going to remember you kindly." And I go, "What? What would you like? What' you. say?" and he goes, "History is going to. remember you kindly." I go, "What do you. know?" You know, you know, I just I'm. just kind of messing with them. Sometimes I I'll get their phone numbers. or whatever. But um what I've learned is. that someone, let's say, from NSA, they'll come and they'll um do this.

whole thing. I'm a fan of your show or. I'm a kid at a at a facility where we. look at um Reaper footage 247. I've done. it six years. Dude, something crazy. happened. So, so after they get to know. you, all of a sudden it's something. crazy's happened, right? And going back to the NSA thing, well, I. called around and I have this unique. ability to find out if people have other. federal employment. And it's to the. chagrin of some of these intelligence. agencies because somewhere there must be.

a file that says you now have to have. badged contact with Jeremy and George. and you need to show them your puppy and. tell show them you have a wife. Like, it's so funny. It's this playbook. It's. like they always talk to me about my. dogs and then they have a dog and like. it's it's so playbook. It's like crazy. It must be in a file. >> You ever call anybody out on it. >> all the time? Like it's it's a joke. It's like when you're messing with. people, you ever heard those stories of. like in Russia where like the the. counterparts even though they knew they. were spying on each other would like um.

go out and have drinks. That's like it's. human nature, right? Of course. >> So, yeah, this is I think what really. shocked the kid Michael who made the. movie cuz he has seen a lot more than. most people of these interactions. And. as I told you, I document everything in. my life out of self-defense. >> But anyway, my point is somebody that. approaches me and says they work in one. agency and they're just big fans of the. show and then I find out something about. them, which is I don't know, they're a. liaison to the FBI. And you know, George.

and I ever since, you know, we've been. kind of in this realm of reporting have. had a lot of badged contact. They just. want to, hey, respect you. You're a. journalist. We're not messing with. anything. We're more worried about. foreign nations compromising you because. then maybe you don't vet stuff and, you. know, not just hurting America, but. other nations could, you know, they're. they're being good cop to you. Yeah. >> So, so I started seeing a lot of that. happen. >> and and Georgia, too. We've we've had a. number of meetings about this and um.

>> and you required meetings. >> Well, you never say no. So that that's. the thing like um only one time did did. I did we say no, but I have a I have a. federal lawyer who people now know who. he is. Chuck McCull the third first. ICIG. >> We've seen him on TV. >> Good lawyer to have. Right. So So he's. kind of will will walk me through. You. don't you know look I'm a curious dude. first of all. So, even when he said. before, there's no reason for you to. take that meeting. I want to take it. because I want to know what they're. thinking. And he kind of laughs when I.

say that, but I'm serious. Like, I want. to know what they're thinking. I've. learned a lot by taking some of those. meetings. Now, they understand strictly. that uh George and I are doing our. journalism first amendment, not to be. fucked with. It will become a public. issue if you try to influence overtly. try to influence any of this shit. Um, so they're not going to tell you not to. report on stuff, but they're going to. tell you the guidelines and the rules, right, with national security, right? They they don't want you to get messed. up, right? >> Hate to see something bad happened to.

you. >> Right. Right. Exactly. So, um, God, how. deep to go into this. So, let's deep. let's say I find somebody is liaz. liazing with with FBI because they're. doing an investigation on our sources or. something like that. So this dude is. patient for like four years and then. when I'm in a heightened state of. emotion, there's, you know, public. things that have occurred. You know, there's this whole um slide of hand. thing that happened in in Congress once. and you know, people could tell I was.

kind of like upset. So. >> slight of hand happened. >> Um. >> as much as you want or as little as you. want. >> Yeah. One of the hearings. was not as it appeared. >> Oh shit. >> Yeah. And um people know it as the. Immaculate Constellation one. People. thought I was upset because some other. journalist, you know, turned in my. homework. >> That was not the case. There's a lot. more to that story. There were prior. meetings for 2 and 1/2 months.

What I was worried about is who the. public can trust, who sources can trust, who who the government and Congress is. telling you can be trusted to bring. sensitive information to. It is the. hardest thing about testifying is. getting there. Some of these. whistleblowers you have never heard. about because when they ask me to bring. and we're going to have, you know, five. people testify, how many do you want? Oh, you know, 12, 13. So, they want.

people to to bear themselves, put. themselves at risk, saying, "This is. what I would testify about, but we know. not everybody's going to get selected.". So, it takes balls of steel sometimes, uh, depending on who's testifying. >> Sure. >> Um, you know, to to actually put it all. out and say, "I want to tell the public. this. It's the right thing to do because. not everybody's going to get selected.". So, >> is that why you smuggled Matthew Brown. in? >> Oh, god. We are um going. >> That was great. >> Weirds. Yeah. So why did I So let's.

let's let's let's take back the word. smuggled for a second. >> Okay. [laughter]. >> No laws were broken. >> No laws are broken. Um okay. So I want. to make sure to answer your question. about. government interference and then I'll. I'll talk to you about the smuggling of. Matthew. [laughter] It's a great story. Okay. Um, so then when I'm in a state where, you. know, I'm vulnerable, it looks like I'm. vulnerable or angry at least, then you.

get that same person under false. friendship to try to get you to solicit, it's called, that's where they say, and. it's it's entrament and is completely. legal and it's where it is absolutely. legal for them to do where they say, "Hey man, I don't know like I'm at my. computers and like I'm really mad about. what I'm seeing And is there anything. you want me to get? >> No. >> No, bro. And these are career human. intelligence people. They know exactly. what they're doing.

>> So in that realm, >> you have to be as a journalist really. careful. And if they lie about what you. say, that's why you have to record. everything if you can, right? Because. the they don't want to stop people from. talking about UFOs. They want to shape. the emerging UAP narrative. Yes. Best. way to do that is have leverage. I I. can't anymore count the number of times. that I have directly been um invited to. solicit and I have never and neither has.

George. And we I I was taught that day. one from George. Like what are the rules. here when you're reporting on shit that. our government doesn't want you to. report on? >> Uh to a high degree they don't want you. to report on. >> So that is an example of the. interference, but it's so much deeper. Man, I have just. jumped into the viper pit with all this. and it's not a cool place to be, right? So, I have to be so careful. And it's. not just for me, but it's also for the. people that I speak with, man. You know,

the more I raise my head up, the more it. puts pressure on anybody that talks to. me. Like, I tell people a lot of time, I. don't want to talk over the phone about. stuff because you never know. We know. for a fact that when I brought people. under a nine-month investigation with. ODNI, ODNI is the top intelligence. agency run our 18 I think intelligence. agencies, they did a 9-month. investigation. First person they came to. was me and George Knap. We go in, we. were like, "Oh, you're going to get to.

the bottom of this. This is really. great. This is a mandated thing.". Ninemonth investigation. We told people, whistleblowers, if you go in and talk. with them, we don't know that they're on. the level. We don't know that they're. not just doing a a human, you know, suck. up information, who knows what, and that. they're going to use that and weaponize. that against you later. We don't know. But, you know, if we could help, go. America. Do you guys want to talk to to. these, you know, folks? So, people said. yes. Most people said yes in good faith. And they did. I come to find out that it was a.

complete ruse. My lawyer said it really. well. He says, "Jeremy, they don't need. a podcast." He's ribbon at me. You don't. need a journalist podcaster to know. where the bodies are buried. You know, they they they're the ODNI. They'll. know. So, this whole thing, he says, doesn't make sense. This feels to me. like they're just trying to get. information. But, you know, I don't. know. Maybe I'm a little naive. I want, you know, I want openness. I want. transparency. I want to, you know, put. them with the people who willingly want.

to be, you know, put together. I thought. it would give them some immunity. So, like with Matthew Brown and with Dylan. Borland, if they testified to ODNI, they. already did or Dylan already did with. ICIG, I figured it would give them. another layer of protection. They're. doing the right thing, right? So, I. >> You tell them don't go into a skiff. >> I I I I don't tell them what to do. Um I. I tell them what the environment is. They wanted to to give testimony. They. wanted to take these steps to do the. right thing. Um,

so it it just becomes s such a a brier. patch um with these agencies and people. and and false friendships. You really. can't make a lot of new friends. Like. I've I've learned that and I have to do. like background on anybody that's really. coming in into my life. >> And it's a very weird thing. I just. thought I was doing journalism on UFOs, but then seeing all of this and the. value system of some of the stuff that. George and I have put out, we know that. it's right on the cutting edge of, you.

know, you got to do it right. You you. can't mess up. Anyway, so that that's. the that was the first thing about. government intervention. But the other. thing he asked, what did you just ask? >> Well, Matthew Brown, but also how the. movie came to be, >> right? So, the movie was um the kid. Michael. I was like, "Here's Well, Michael saw that there's a lot of little. vignettes that I did, but I had never. really put out full things on the. footage.". >> How did you find him? How'd you guys. >> He you know, he called and left a a.

voice message in an email, which is what. I ask people to do because I just can't. read all the emails. And so, he was. smart like he he did it the way I asked. But I get, you know, probably like you, a lot of people want to help all the. time. You can't trust people. You know. what? How do you trust somebody coming. into this? There has to be some sort of. legacy of trust. But I was like dying, dude. I was like working my butt off. I. was uh filming, editing, weaponizing. I'm not I'm a horrible editor. Like you. I can't do it as fast as other people. This kid's right out of AFI. He's super. slick. Got a great eye.

>> He's slick. >> Yeah. And my wife's like, um, you need. help. You need help. You can't. This is. not sustainable. You're working 24/7 on. just this reporting with George. You. need help. So I called him back. Such a. nice kid. Then I immediately regretted. it. Pit in my stomach. like I can't let. somebody in my life I don't know some of. this stuff is sensitive but he came on. to be a producer and editor and he. produces all the weaponized so it was. like over the course of like a year plus. got to know him and his family realized.

that you know he's kind of like me like. he just wants to know as much as he can. and thinks it's important. >> that's interesting that you really. didn't trust him at first. >> oh hell no I can't I can't man I've been. burned a lot. >> sure. >> so um you know people would love to. control mine and George's reporting. >> Oh, yeah. >> They would love to do that. And we have. evaded that somehow, you know, to to date. Um, so the kid uh, you know, says, "Well, I I know you have. a lot of footage you never put out. You.

know, can I look through it?" And I'm. like, "Um, okay. I've got this huge. drive. It's insurmountable amount of. footage." He goes, "Oh, look. There's. like a bunch of movies in there." So the. whole idea for him was he was going to. go through my you know 12 15 years of. footage longer than that and cuz it was. back stuff too and and he was like I'm. going to make I I can make some movies. out of it. I'm like good I'll never do. it. I'm already on to this thing you. should. >> do it. Then he started actually seeing.

and hearing the interference like cuz. he's he'd be on weaponized producing. stuff. You know, I I'd show him some. video or some calls just to inform him. of the stakes of some of it. And he's. like, "Dude, we got to show this. This. is a First Amendment issue. This is a. journalism issue. There's no reason why. journalists like you and George should. have this much um these many people. during a time of war badge contacts. sitting down where agencies are like, you know, watch what what you're doing. or hey, we're doing this UFO program and.

we um you know, we just want to get a. lay of the land and and George is. patriotic, too, right? So, there's a. part of us that really wants the good. guys inside of these agencies and they. are trying to figure it out. some of. them are trying to figure it out um cuz. they don't have access to the. information like other agencies. So like. with Congress where we can help, we. help. And so that's where the the line. changes from journalism to like. activism. Like I I'm definitely setting.

up hearings. Like they'll call me like. red hotline phone, we don't have a. hearing. Do you know any whistleblowers? I'm like that are willing to talk. So. I've kind of become a liaison between. people that have something to say and. with you know Congress but then also. with agencies. Let me explain that. before people go crazy. Right? If you're. department of justice and so FBI and you. hear that there are these swarms and. these flyovers on critical.

infrastructure. >> and you are getting blocked out from. that information by DOE as an example. Then let's say I get a call from. somebody who has access to the Honeywell. um security systems and they're like. there is a pyramid that lifted up out of. this body of water and came over the. base and we have nowhere to send it. Um. we don't know what to do. We know we see. in the media that the DOJ isn't getting. this footage. And I'm like okay look I. have some people in DOJ that I know are.

running a UFO program. I know you can. trust them that there won't be. repercussions. It is lawfully what. they're asking for. Would you like to. talk to these people who I do trust and. both parties say yes and then I can like. link them together. So that that kind of. goes beyond journalism to where I'm just. trying to get I trying to do the right. thing. >> Right. And I I I'm relieved to hear that. there's good guys in the system because. I don't know who's running things. It's.

clearly not Congress or the president, >> right? and and they don't know either. So, to give you an example with this. Honeywell footage, once I made that. connection between like security folks. and with the Department of Justice. before they could have a meetup, that. footage of that object that came up out. of the water, that's what they said. And. like, why would you do this whole thing. as a ruse? Like, they're putting a lot. on the line to make. >> um it got confiscated is the best way to.

say it, like out of that system. But. there's a demarcation of who now owns it. solely and that's. >> DOE. >> Department of Energy. >> So it and that is outside apparently the. scope of some of the DOJ stuff. So. because the national security stuff. >> So you just see that kind of thing. happen. So that that's been kind of the. the dance I've been doing is trying to. get whistleblowers who come to me from. the embryionic stage, vetting them, making sure they're not just messing.

with me to the point where I'll put them. in front of the national security people. of Congress where they have to go. through this grueling process in order. to testify. So that that's what I've. been doing over a number of of years, you know. >> How how did that pyramid footage how do. they flag that? How do they even know. that was happening? >> I I don't know. I'm not like um really. in depth with those systems. I just know. that they would they had so a bunch of. these security people had access to it. for a a good duration of time enough to. to call Batman and you know tell me. about it, right? I mean who do you call.

with that kind of thing when you're. seeing it? What do you write like a a. you know thing? This isn't going to DOJ. like they've asked. I don't know. So So. then what happened is all I know is that. when they ended up going for it um it. was whatever taken or shut down by DOE. So only DOE has access to it. >> It's so hard because these are all. people with clearance and careers and. >> there's the Espionage Act and you know. that they're. >> getting knocks on the door saying you're. in good you're going to be hung as a.

traitor. >> Well, so there is both badged contact. and unbadged contact. So there's. official and unofficial questioning of. people. I'll give you a concrete example. because we're talking real out of space. right now with with this. I want people. to understand it. Um, okay. So, George. and I obtained and released a piece of. footage called Syria 2021 UAP. When we obtained that, we assessed it. We did background. We found out over a.

good amount of time, couple years, that. that is a piece of footage designated. UAP by our intelligence agencies that in. fact it was part of a collection process. on UAP. like it's a in a special area. We knew we had a real video that they. designated UAP. >> What department? >> Um well that that gets that that gets. murky because I I don't know ownership. at that time like who has ownership of. it? >> I was just curious.

>> Yeah, it was Well, so it's Fleer. footage. It's out it's out in the wild. now. >> Oh, it's it's legit. >> Yeah, I I believe it is legit uh in that. it does demonstrate instantaneous. acceleration. But to give you an. example, those title cards you see are. replicated, but they're word for word. what's in the the actual thing. So what. you're seeing is an analysis by the. intelligence agencies of a UAP, an. unknown that appears to be demonstrating. instantaneous movement. Now, people have. tried to argue it. I'm not like a. perfect expert with this stuff, but. there are people smarter than me that.

have done it online. You can see it. shoots off visibly first. First, if. you're looking at it, it goes a little. bit when it gets a weapons grade lock. goes a little bit to the left and then. it shoots to the right. And how you know. it's shooting to the right is the ground. keeps going down as the thing moves to. the right. So it's not like an artifact. of the lens. You're tracking the ground. and the thing goes to the right. >> All I can say is our intelligence. agencies, they did an extensive analysis not just. on that one sensor and they determined.

that that was a UAP. looks like a. mushroom if you look at the thermal. signature. >> and that it that it did demonstrate one. of the five observables of of UFOs. So. George and I thought, "Okay, this is a. public interest. We've obtained this. We've vetted it. We're going to put it. out." We go and we put it out. Next thing I know, I come to find that. there's a guy who who uh initiated that. report. His name is Logan Lenvo, right? He's one of these guys that talks. He.

used to be on the UAP task force. So, he. got calls both official and unofficial. Um, meaning like a badge contact where. they're like, "What's going on with. this? How did they get this?" He I have. no idea. They must have good sources. Like, we did not get something. We did. not get that from him, but he was. getting like a false target painted on. him or something. So, our response was, "We're going to have him on weaponized. cuz I know the guy. Anybody I know. becomes a a false target for things that.

George and I obtain. Anybody George. knows, right? So, we want to get right. like, you know, we would never um you. know, we're good. I hope we're good. journalists and we don't put, you know, sources and witnesses at at risk. So, we. we had the guy Logan on the show and, you know, he told us he said in the. thing that he had both official and. unofficial contact. We made it really. clear, well, just we didn't get it from. Logan, so there you go. Um, but the fact. that they're trying to squeeze him and. even ask him, "What are they going to.

put out next? Where did they get that?". He goes, "I don't know." He did once ask. me though, like, you know, in a private. conversation like, "Who are your. sources?" All this stuff. I go, "Are you. kidding me?". >> Right? >> Like, "Are you kidding me?" So, I said. on the show, "If I had answered you, right, you were active like you would. have had, wouldn't you have had to write. that up?" And basically, and he goes, "Yeah, I would." Yeah. >> So everybody's like a a coin, right? There's two sides to them. At least. coins have three sides. The truth is. always the So the combination of the two.

sides is who people are. You can work in. intelligence. You can be working in this field. You. can be my friend, but I always know, you. know, who I'm dealing with. There is. this and I I totally understand it is. that your job is to do your job. >> So anyway, that piece of footage it came. out. A lot of people said that we were. pedalling bullshit again and it wasn't. UAP and all this stuff. And then lo and. behold, the government releases that. exact piece of footage without all the.

the number systems on it, right? >> Which is of zero value. If you don't. have the numeric systems, you can't. track it and understand asmouth, altitude, all this stuff. So, you're. getting an underhand pitch from our. government because they know they have. to. >> I'm seeing that they're cropping in now. a lot of the footage. So, yeah, we can't. see the angles or the speed anymore. >> Yeah. Or at least they're blacking out. all the. >> right like with tic tac and and fast. We. don't see that anymore, >> which is all the valuable numeric.

information. >> We need that for the trigonometry. We. need that. >> We absolutely do. And so my impression. is that um what we're seeing in these. releases so far is the least that can be. given. Sure, the president orders that. there is transparency on this. However, is the president watching like who's. regulating what they have and what. they're putting out? Who's even doing. it? And and and I don't even know. But I. do know it is so odd that out of the.

hundreds of thousands of UAP videos, much better than than what you've seen. publicly, right? That we're getting. primarily the stuff that's already been. out there in some way or the other. >> The last dump was all stuff we saw. already. >> Was it? Mostly [clears throat] I I. think. Yeah. >> I don't know. I I I just know that. there's. it is so ironic out of hundreds of. thousands of videos that that would show. UAP that are designated UAP that show.

the five observables, some of them that. we're just getting mainly the ones that. have already come out as if they're new, you know? >> Yep. >> And so I I I I don't know what to think. anymore. I don't know who's watching the. people that are deciding what to put out. in in each agency. And by the way, it's. all coming through probably Arrow, you. know, has a lot of say in it, which we. know they've been totally disingenuous. with the American public. They've. demeaned and demoted and tried to harm. whistleblowers all along the way. Maybe.

they're different now, new management, but man, their job is to to keep. secrets. So, I just I don't know what's. going to happen, but I do know that if. they don't start talking about biologics. and reverse engineering, you have people. like David Grush that are out there. saying, "I have direct knowledge of. those. It was my job to find out.". They're going to run into issues if they. don't start telling the American public. the truth about those two things. If it. if it is true, I have no definitive way. of knowing, but if it is true, they have.

to start hitting on that. I've noticed that the narrative, the. lexicon has changed from UFO to UAP, from aliens to biologics, non-human. intelligence. >> And you use that lexicon as well. >> Mhm. >> I hate it. I like UFOs. >> I do too. >> Yeah. >> Why? Why do you use that? >> Yeah. So, that I I think very smart. Um. why people are using that. Um there's. two reasons. Start with UFO. Hillary.

Clinton was actually one of the first. people to to say UAP. was in Jimmy. Kimmel many many years ago. >> Wow. I forgot about that. >> Many years ago, right? And and because. internally what they realized is that. the UAP issue is all domain. It's space. It's air. It's sea. That that term not. only is stigmatized UFO, unidentified. flying object. It doesn't describe the. the USOS, the underwater, right? >> Um it doesn't describe things that go. through all mediums. So they say all. domain, like how do we call it all.

domain? And they're like, well, UAP. unidentified anomalous phenomena. It. used to be aerial. >> Yes. >> Anomalous phenomena. So, they're like. refining the language. It it is better. It's it's got less stigma. >> So, like major publications, they don't. feel silly, you know, doing um UAP. >> because that worked. >> It did. >> That scan worked. >> It did work. It did work. And that was. our government trying to make it a laugh. factory. >> That's historic fact. So, >> um it did work. So, I I kind of like I'm.

of two minds of it. I I hate it. Like I. love UFOs. Come on, let's call them. UFOs. But it is a much more articulated. and thoughtful term. Um NHI, I think, is. actually really smart because not just. because the word alien is um you know. has a stigma as well. >> because anything's going to be alien. with the with with with the um. artificial intelligence way that it is. right now. We know for a fact that there. is a technological aspect to.

intelligence like that if we can build. this um nonhuman. intelligence. It's a just it's a better. term that I think doesn't create the. stigma and is more encompassing nonhuman. intelligence because these these things. that are flying around we don't know. some of them they look like they got. beings on them. >> but these could be cybernetic organisms. printed flesh that all work off of a. hive mind of artificial I mean. >> you've heard those stories where they.

come in contact it looks like an alien. but you get close it's more like a robot. and it's like AI I or something that. >> so trippy. I never met one, but. >> I haven't either. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> so those I think that's the terminology. difference. Yeah. >> So we're allowed to use it. I I I don't. just don't want to play into the hands, >> right? Because your idea is that we're. being indoctrinated into a certain. lexicon they call it like it. Yeah. And. look, we we might be I I I don't know o. ultimately with this it's it's so. forward moving, but I can tell you the.

parts the mechanics behind it are not. orchestrated. Like we have fought tooth. and nail to get every single piece out. There isn't like some group of people. like the David Grush and Alzandos and. they're dude, they're not working. together on this. Like if you knew them. as people you've seen what have happened. in their lives, you know their families. This is not unfortunately some. coordinated disclosure. I don't believe. that. Now I told you I've been naive. before, but I don't think I'm naive now.

on it. I think that we're in a different. environment and I think we're saying. things out loud we didn't before. I. think our technologies have gotten. better to the point where pilots it. can't be ignored what they're seeing and. what they're recording now. >> That started with the Fraver incident. >> Yes. >> Yeah. So I I just feel like or popularly. it started the Fraver incident. So I I. just think we're living in a different. time and they're they're playing catchup. and having to admit certain things, but. I don't know that the language is really. being weaponized against us. I I just.

think they're better terms biologics. because it's like, you know, how we. don't know are are they printed. machines? We know we we don't know. I. don't know. Maybe maybe there's people. that do. >> There's people who do. >> I who know some stuff. >> Um in the movie was there's an. interesting tension where it's one scene. you're on the phone with uh with Lazar. >> Mhm. >> And he's telling you he's telling you to. stop. >> Yeah. He's saying, "Stop pushing." And.

then you're on a Zoom call with Fraver. and he's saying, "If release it all, send them to jail. Do it.". >> Yeah. >> So, you have material that would put. powerful people in jail. >> Not just material, like I have. documented a lot of the interference, you know, throughout my life. Uh, and I. have been and I've given it to my lawyer. and so so a lot of stuff happens behind. the scenes. >> So, so a third party does have that. >> Oh, yeah. >> Your attorney has that. >> Yeah. I'm not I'm not talking just like. files like images. I'm talking like when.

there has been interference on. journalists and attempts at enttrapment. which apparently are legal. >> Um I want I wanted the legal process to. know about some of this when when you. had OD and I run a 9-month thing that. was disingenuous. I think that should be. public. >> Yes. >> Right. Because you you've Yeah. And and. we'll see how much of that becomes. public. So a lot happens behind the. scenes. Not everything is about. journalism and to be reported on. A lot. of this is like personal life stuff.

That was a very hard time in my life. So, we were I give you a concrete. example. My my family had to meet with. an agency because of a a verified. um actionable threat to my family. Um that's as far as I want to go, but. like to my family, right? >> Yeah. That's an exception. They're. telling me about the threat. and there are implications of of who was. behind that threat. That is a horrible.

thing for your family to have to go. through. That changed the dynamic of how. my family has to operate. Yes. Because. of that. And it's not just like somebody. whispering it to you or you get some. email. This is an a federal agency. giving my family safety protocols. Not. cool. >> No. >> Not cool. So So that was like a very. hard time for me. So, >> did that cool down? >> Yeah, I I feel like I've done everything. in my self-defense as possible, which is. making sure that it is known within uh.

federal circles. Like I um all of it's. documented. And so I feel like um as a private thing. that is something the movie showed. because he turned the camera around, wanted to show the interference we were. getting because to to Michael the. biggest proof about UFOs he always says. is during wartime. he saw the meetings like so during. wartime you've got all these federal. agents on you and George. It just. doesn't make financial sense. You have. terrorists coming to the country you.

can't even put one federal agent on. Right? >> So that was the biggest proof for him. Hey, something's up. So, he turned that. camera around instead of making a movie. about all these UFO things and says, you. know, this is a element of protection. for you and your family. That's what he. told me. It is. >> And I um I bought into that and I think. it did. >> to a degree because it's it's it's film. Not everything's in the movie, you know. Um. >> so, when you're talking about the movie, um yeah, Lazar really was talking me off. the ledge, you know. He was saying look.

I always said that we should admit admit. this is real that that there are craft. made by what seem to be nonhumans that. they have a technology that we can't. replicate we can't duplicate but he says. that's where I say it should stop. >> just acknowledge it and move on. >> right that was Lazar is what he's saying. to me in the movie and I'm like yeah but. dude I've come to this point where I. have to follow through with you know. with journalism with George like you see. us make a decision in that hotel room.

But you have to understand that was a. long time ago. We've been doing it. We've been doing it. We've been putting. out like people forget I put out with. George the um the Air Force disc. Guess. what? Our government also just put that. out. >> Yeah, they did. >> Yeah. It's just it's funny. >> So, we we show some some clips um in the. film of some footage. >> That was just me doing my normal. process, you know, taking in the desert. You know, >> that was a crazy scene. Well, because. you can't, you know, you have to pro. even if it's not like you have to be. care even if it's not like real footage,

like I I'm not having if I get something. I don't know what's on it, I have to. review it. I'm not Nothing's in my. house, bro. You know what I mean? So, as. journalists, we're protecting sources. We're protecting methods. We're. protecting footage. What if it is. damaging? What if, remember, we talked. about national security stuff? I'll be. on the hook for that. So, what you're. seeing is you're seeing uh part of the. process that that George and I go. through. >> It's trade craft. Yes, I guess it is. But um really it's just I'm trying to do. uh responsible journalism where I'm not.

just um letting stuff out of my control. I'm trying to assess it and see if it. has public value. Do I even think it has. public value? Um is it is it dangerous. to people and and then choosing the. stuff that would make the most impact. and getting it for public interest and. getting it out to the world. So you're. seeing me assess stuff. I'm not ever. gonna just, you know, put a bunch of. stuff out when I don't know its value. I. don't know who it's going to hurt. That's I'm just not, you know, I don't. know if that's journalism. I just ain't.

doing it. I'm not I'm not here to hurt. people. So, I am here to try to learn. the truth about this as best I can and. share what I can with the world. That's. what I'm trying to do. And and George. and I have done our best at it so far. So, what you're seeing in that movie is. stuff I'm reviewing. I'm reviewing it. And it took a lot for me to let Michael. film over my my shoulder on there. But. now you look at all that footage. What'. the government do? >> All I think I think all of those videos. are out now. The actual. >> hard copy. Great. Then we've provoked.

change, man. >> Keep it going. Keep it going. And um. footage will always come in. >> Information will always come in. And and. over time, I I think we'll continue. doing our reporting if we're not stopped. or we're not, you know, um get in. trouble for it. We're just trying to do. journalism in America under the First. Amendment. >> Yeah. You're so You're so careful. >> I I have to be. >> Do you think they're hiding a lot of. stuff behind the contractors? >> I know they are.

>> You know they are. >> Oh, I know they are. Yeah. I mean, you've had people come out and say it. like how put off we're talking about. That is the method. That is the way that. is the way that you um stop foyer. requests. That is the way that you don't. have to have accountability. And it's to. the point where our own government is. looking at it being like what the fuck? Like we don't have control of this stuff. anymore. Very famously the locked uh. transfer was supposed to occur under. OAP, Advanced Aerospace Weapon System. Application Program. Yep. >> And you know that that's the thing there.

>> everybody got confused that New York. Times article with ATIP and OAP. in the so. everybody involved is a hero in my book. They have all tried to some degree. whether some of it be. governmentmandated. Hey, we better tell. the public a little bit about this. In. my experience, everybody's tried to do. their best to some degree to get stuff. out. We've had UFO programs. They're. acknowledged. That's a huge win. We were. told nothing to see here. Move on. Project Blue Book, we killed it in 1969.

That's it. All of a sudden, we realized, oh no, we've been studying this ever. since then. I'll tell you this. UFOs are. considered higher. security than weapons of mass. destruction. And you have to ask yourself why. And. I'm not saying that frivolously. Ask. George Nap. We have been in official. meetings where we have met people where. their job is weapons of mass destruction. related to UAP. We were taken aback. We're like, well, we've always heard. that. >> This is why DOE is involved,

>> right? We always heard that. You know, why is that? And it's the propulsion. systems themselves. If they can create. so much energy to do what we think. they're doing, what they appear to be. doing, instantaneous acceleration, possibly folding or warping, >> time space itself, the amount of energy. needed to do that is so astronomical. That is fundamentally [snorts] a weapon. Look at it from like a a let's. Simpsonize it, you know, like Bart. Simpson style. Fraver did this. wonderfully, you know, he says, "Look,

if we have tic tacs, right? What can we. do?" He's like, "We can send it up over. a country, drop it down from outer. space, be back up in less than a second, deliver a a dirty bomb, a nuke. No one. will ever know who did it." So even just. as a payload, if we could ever harness the ability to. replicate these craft, it's a strategic. surprise, strategic advantage that every. country wants. And that was the the core.

of the secrecy from day one was always. that we don't understand this tech, but. we need to duplicate it before our. enemies do. And that's why I know that. is why we kept it secret for a long. time. problem is cat's out of the bag. now. >> because China and Russia have to be. doing the same thing. >> They are and it's not me saying that. like uh Dr. Latsky who's the head of the. UFO program for the Defense Intelligence. Agency. >> I'd love to hear his story. Didn't he. say that we got through the bulkhead of.

a craft? >> Yeah, he we breached the hole. >> Breached the hole of a craft. >> So people ask how can he say this? And. and it's a legitimate question like is. that a scop? Is that just like a lie? Well, I'll tell you. I know him. George. has known him for over a decade. Um, he's a patriot. He is the exact kind of. person that you would want in a role in. our intelligence agencies cuz he does. not break from the fold. He's only. saying what he begged and asked for to.

be authorized. He wants to take pride in. his work, man. So he went through the. Doppser process and he says here's the. scope of the books I want to write which. is by the way probably the biggest. disclosures we've had about our. government doing this stuff is it's so. nerdy but if you read his books you know. if you can conceive of what he's saying. he's told us more about the US's um. investigations into UAP than I'm. thinking than any other individual as. far as the scope of it. Right?

>> But here's what he said. He said. we ha he says I can admit to that the US. government has one craft one NHI not not. just of unknown origin like they don't. know who built it. It has a technology. far superior to ours. Um there's no. intakes, no exhaust. Um no even place to. store fuel by his own description. through the DIA. And they they they put. all this out and and we breached the. whole of it. That's about as as far as.

as he's gone with it. There is an admission from a top. government official who I can tell you. is being genuine. I mean, of course, people will create conspiracies because. they don't know him in that way. >> Um, he is trying in the sunset of his. life to tell people as much as he can. And he is not a big proponent of. disclosure like like you and I might be. Mhm. >> He comes from this cold war mentality of. like you can't tell your friends without. telling your enemies. >> So it takes a lot for him to get there,

but he feels it's important. We know. that much. Now you've had people like. Hal Putoff say we've got more than doz. more than a dozen just in the US. That's. a guy that would know. Do you think he's. just making that up? You know, is that a. government conspiracy that he would say. that? Maybe. >> Maybe. I don't know. >> I don't I I don't know. But I just know. he's not the only one singing that tune. and they're not all coordinating with. one another. There's friction amongst. all these people. >> That's interesting. Do you think there's. friction among the contractors?

>> There there is definitely um questions. about which contractors got what. >> Yes. And that's why Loheed was and this. is a documented. transfer attempt. >> is they the vice president Loheed Martin. tried to give. >> technology. and we're talking. we don't know who built it but it ain't. Russia, China or US to the to the OAP.

and that transfer got completely denied. and my understanding it was from the. head of science and technology ology um. of the CIA at the time, Glenn Gaffne. Now, that can be argued. Did he actually. did he he himself block that transfer? But it was his his office and his. department. So, there you have a. documented attempt at NHI technology. transfer that got denied. What other. corporations. have craft.

aspects of the technology? A and and how. come they're not all working together. with their brightest minds? You know, >> they can't transfer it back to the. government because then. then we find out. >> I I don't know. >> It's got to stay. >> Yeah. I I don't know. But that was Bob. Lazar's um gripe the whole way through. He says, "I'm not the most qualified guy. to be working on this. Um I'm probably. the easiest to be discredited." It was. like a show and tell. He barely got to. to work there on that stuff. They they.

were looking for a change, man. They. were looking for any left-handed, you. know, outside of the box kind of thinker. to come in and try something that hadn't. been tried before because they've been. stalled a bunch of times. They've made. progress, I hear, um, a little bit over. time, but we we the throttle is the. material science. The best of my. knowledge, the throttle is the material. science. can't replicate um the alloys. and the skins and the the even the. systems themselves or the fuel sources.

is how I understand it. >> So Bob never said that we had craft that. we were testing. >> No, he No, he he did. that he said he. saw a low performance test, but there's. so many holes in that that he. acknowledges like. >> uh to give you an example, >> they displayed to him that they were in. communication with the pilot. >> through a radio and Bob says, "How is. that even possible?" Because if you have. a a bubble of spaceime or gravitation, you're not radio wav is going to get in.

and out of that. No. So apparently to. according to his understanding um they. did these low performance tests because. they had ripped out one of the reactors. or something. You ever heard about this? So crazy. So that's why they were doing. these low performance tests. Now you. you'd push that off and you'd be like, "Okay, cool story, bro." Except he. brought people out on multiple Wednesday. nights and I have talked to all of them. that went out there, right, to see a. disc flying over the mountains. >> and they saw it. >> Yeah. and he did not wi win awards for.

taking people out there. I'll tell you. that like they were pissed. >> So the truth falls somewhere in there. that we have okay we definitely have. craft and we definitely have been. exploiting them for what they call. derivative technologies that I am 100%. on. I have uh personally um all this. time I I've gotten to the point where. that's not for me a question mark. anymore. The question mark for me is how. far have we gotten? You know, what what.

is the limiting factor? Can we replicate. any of this technology like the. triangles people talk about? They were. doing sorties on a base with one of. these triangles with a guy that didn't. testify, but we had him unweaponized, David uh Daniel Gawkerell. >> So, he saw us doing sordies with one of. these gigantic. um triangles. around a military base. So we have. something from that technology. But. >> what do you think about the the legends,

the stories about fiber optics coming. from craft? >> Yeah. Phil Corso is really the root of. that. >> He is um. >> right. >> But I feel like I debunked a lot of his. story. >> Yeah. Oh, totally. >> But you you think there is some. derivative technology? >> I don't I I really don't know. Um you. know, I if I listen to I know. I'm. sorry. If if I listen to to one, you. know, individual that I respect, uh most. likely we have um figured out a lot of. the the the alloys like what they're.

composed of, but that we still can't. replicate them with perfect atomic. layering, and that's the the throttle on. it. I talked to somebody else who is in. a position to know, and they're like, "They're not ours." I'm like, "What do. you mean they're not ours? Have we. they're just not ours." Well, who's. piloting them? So it I get different. messages and I I just don't know the. answer to them. >> I know. >> Yeah. It seems to all come down to the. material science that we just we're just. not there yet. >> That is my that is my best guess and I.

know that we will get there someday. You. know, the bigger questions are are we. being helped? Because if you've been. paying attention, a lot of these aren't. crashes. They're they're almost like discarded. things. It's like you throwing an iPhone. into a cage and just saying, "See what. you can do with this.". >> They've been called gifts in some. stories. >> Some people call them that. Offerings, gifts. >> Who? So, who's the intelligence behind. them? Is it us from the future? Is it a.

aliens from another planet? >> Yeah. >> What is it? Who Who are they? >> Yeah. I mean, if we're there in the. conversation, right, because we we just. got to the point in our society where. UFOs are real. >> Yes. and and we're sol I think we're. solidly there. >> We're solid. >> Okay. So, that's a huge achievement for. you, Victor. Like um you know, people. have been seeing them forever. So, now. we know. Okay. Thanks, daddy. You just. told us they're real. >> So, >> it took 70 years though, >> right? >> Would nice to know, you know, in the 50s. when they were working on anti-gravity.

then suddenly, >> but they were worried about it, right? So, I think I think back then they were. worried about other really hostile. nations, right? So, I'm not making. excuses for it. I'm just saying I. understand why the campaigns were of. dismissal and denial where now at least. we've we've made it there that okay u. UFOs are real but what are UFOs? Are are. they just craft or are they like hard. metal? That's definitely part of it. >> Um.

>> but but what are these um intelligent. plasmoids people are talking about? I. was going to ask you what are the these. orbs and spheres that that are spiritual. that we're seeing now. >> So you call them spiritual. Um I don't. know. I'm not um inclined to call them. spiritual. Um I can just go off reports, but I mean if you want me to theorize, man, it's like. >> if you're if you're bending space and. time and you've got, you know, some. machine that can do that, you know, I.

don't know what that looks like. optically. You know, we might just be. seeing like a tip of an iceberg above. the water. There might be something much. bigger behind that. And and people seem. to have this understanding that there's. a consciousness element. >> Yes. >> With with especially these orbs, these. lights in the sky. Um I can't deny that. >> The reports all show that. >> I don't know what that means. Is that. just egoentrism where you're like I'm. calling in the I don't think anybody's. calling in anything. I think these.

things are always there and then at at. times you can perceive them because. everybody they say they're summoners. I'm like you ain't summoning shit, man. Like I I don't believe you are. I I. think that there's a a perforated. boundary of reality and you are. perceiving it. >> Chris Bledsoe can do some wild stuff, man. >> I hear about that and I I've met a lot. of these guys. Yeah. >> Have you seen something with him? >> I haven't, but but Gino has. >> Yeah. Um, you follow Jack Valet's early.

work from the 70s. >> to a degree. Jacqu Valet is fucking. Jacqu Valet. >> Fucking Jack Valet. Yeah. So, he talks. about we'll perceive these UFOs how. wherever we are in the culture. Yeah. >> So, in the 50s and 60s it's a flying. saucer. In the 70s and 80s, it's. something else. Now, it's a spiritual. ore because that's kind of where where. the zeitgeist is going. >> Yeah. I I I don't know if I fully buy. that. Like I used to think that um UFOs. are like flying saucers. Like that's all.

I knew. And but you look at history, there's always been the variety pack. There's always been orbs, the Foo. Fighters. There's always been cylinders, triangles, pyramids. >> All the shit John Leer said. >> Very all the shit John Le said. Fucking. still bothers me to this day. If he's. right about people on the sun, [laughter] I am just getting up, you. know? >> That's crazy. But yeah, I mean, look, I. I think the bottom line of it for me is. I I don't have any special knowledge. that other people don't have. I've got. special questions. Like, I've been I.

I've gotten to the point where I know. the right questions to ask when I'm in. the presence of people that might have. been working on some of this. Jock Valet. one time came out to my ranch and this. lasting impression I have of him. It was. like the sun was going down and we had. just driven out to this like, you know, raw acreage I had. And I'm like, "Hey. man, just tell me what do you know for. sure about UFOs?" And he says, "What I. know for sure is you have better. questions than than I ever had at a. young age and you got to like keep.

asking them, you know, because it was. like he feels it's progressed so much.". And um here's what I will say though. about UFOs is that. I truly believe. that. so like back in the day, you know, um. the ancient Greeks thought that stars. were do you know about this hummingbirds. puck plucked holes in the firmament, right? >> And now we know about galaxies and we. know about the universes maybe expanding.

or whatever. We know about suns and. exoplanets. So that difference between. being the ancient Greek and thinking. hummingbirds going up there and pecking. out the firmament to what we know about. galaxies, I really hope the UFO thing is. going to be as big a conceptual shift. for us. Like I don't think it's just. craft from other planets. I I I think. that there is so much more to this. mystery that we're not even asking the. right questions and that once we get a.

few answers we might just jaw drop be. like we were like the ancient Greeks. totally misunderstand it. >> I think you're you're exactly right that. they can just show up and be like you. you thought we were from a thousand. light years away. We can't do that. We've been here the whole time. >> Right. The argument that's already. percolating in my mind right now is why. would you buy a or why would you build a. Ferrari if you didn't want to go fast, >> right? >> So why do these craft appear by their.

very nature to be able to travel amongst. the stars if we didn't build them to do. that or or if whoever built them to do. that? Um there's no fingerprint in our. society like your your brother told me. that you and I should talk maybe about. the tic tac because it is your un your. belief that that's a Loheed Martin. technology and I'm firmly in the other. camp and I would like to know why you. believe that because I haven't heard. everything. >> Um but if you don't mind I'd love to.

hear. >> I'm probably not educated enough to. really sell it. >> or just the ideas. I'm not this is not a. >> but I just by going by memory I think. the trigonometry showed that it wasn't. moving as fast as we were told. but I I don't want to go on record as. being totally skeptical. >> right I just I've heard it a lot. >> but I but I'd rather I'd rather hear. your take. >> sure well I'll tell you why um that. dissolved for me very quickly um first. of all it was a very depressing day for.

me I used to think that we had total. control of these things I used to think. oh man we really done it. American. ingenuity. >> You really did. >> I did. Early on, I had this idea of. reverse engineered craft that we just. been hiding this shit and that we have. made gigantic headway and that there's. some, you know, within the government. there were some outsourced contractors. that really did it. And I was very sad. the day when that was taken away from me.

that that idea. >> Why? Because if they had anti-gravity. and this unlimited energy, they need to. share that. >> Exactly. >> That's that'd be bullshit if they're not. sharing that. >> Okay. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Like that would be bullshit. >> and it it would slowly. >> completely change the world that we. would have to build different. infrastructure. I don't think it would. happen overnight. >> No, but we wouldn't have war anymore, >> right? With free energy. >> Yeah. That would be the hope, right? >> That'd be the hope. Yeah. >> We'd still have a war, but still. >> Yeah. Yeah. But it' be it'd be it'd be.

the hope. And so now I see I see your. point of view there and yeah absolutely. it'd be complete bullshit but there was. this part of me that it was just at. least it explained it you know. >> Yes. Um and then I was in a situation. where um which which I don't for a. person I don't want to get too much into. it but um. >> I was satisfied with the idea um from. people that know that. if it's big it's silent.

it is not ours that we don't have that. tech and it kind of it kind of made me. sad because I thought um how cool if we. did maybe it would percolate laid out. Maybe the world would get better from. that. Then talking to more and more. people involved in these programs, I've. been pretty high up on the food chain, dude. And I always get to that stopping. point. Don't kick a sleeping dog. I. think that's why he named the movie. Sleeping Dog. >> Yeah. >> Um because I've been told that like a. ton. It's like they practice that line, you know, like. >> don't go too far with it. >> That's kind of scary.

>> Yeah. And I don't know what they're. afraid of. Um it's like the the boogie. monster. It's like something in the. closet. What would be so bad about us. knowing about the nature of reality. itself that maybe we're not alone in the. universe? Maybe we're not the most. advanced technological civilization. Like, what is the big fucking fear that. people have of knowing about the natural. world? I know great white sharks exist. That's why I don't jump in the ocean. that much. But, you know, at least I. know. >> Yeah. At least I know. >> Well, what do you think happens to just.

a normal person if. disclosure happens? I'm I'm a teacher. I. wake up in the morning. How was life. different? >> Well, what do you think? I mean, do you. think. >> I think a lot. >> disclosure has happened a little bit, right? >> I think so. I I I I'm very distrustful. of the government. Very very very much. so. >> Um I don't I don't see full disclosure. ever coming. >> Yeah. >> I really don't. Yeah. >> Not Not as long as we're in a world. where we're constantly bombing each.

other, right? >> You just can't let can't let China know. what you have. >> You have no motivation to disclose shit. you know, the underhanded pitch, let you. know what what all they need you to know. because people are seeing them, okay, they're real, but but that's the cut. off. I I don't see it happening. >> I'm annoyed at myself because if I'm. running Lockheed, I'm not telling you. what we have, >> right? >> I'm I'm just not telling you because. then China is going to have what we. have. It can't do that. We need an. advantage, >> right? >> So, I'm torn between patriotism and. wanting to know what's going on, right? >> And I don't know where to fall,

>> right? So, okay, about the the Tik Tok. stuff. So, I've been exposed and so has. George Knap to um a lot of the technical. information about um what they observed. over those course of weeks. So, I I told. Commander Fraver before he was public. that this story is going to get out. Like, it's too big a story. It won't be. from me and I kept my word and it won't. be from me, but that story will. percolate. It will get out. Look, if I.

found out, I did the med. If I found out. [laughter] about it, then I'm just some. weirdo with a beard and tattoos. Dude, other real journals. I got to find out. about it. I said this to him like early. on and he kind of laughed me off. Said. it's not that important, man. He knew it. was important. Um, so. because of George's position where he's. as a great journalist who's got a lot of. trust with people, you know, we've been. exposed to some of we tried to submit to. Congress one time um a technological.

report of the tic tacs that would kind. of answer some of the detailed questions. about that. And you know, we couldn't. I'll just say we couldn't submit it to. Congress in a lawful way. So we were. unable to get that on congressional. record. How? Why? >> Um the DIA did a bunch of reports on the. Tic Tacs because they were studying it. It was the first thing they were. studying. >> Ah, >> but the thing is is um when you're a. journalist, you obtain and then how do. you release? You have to be very um it. has to be lawful, dude. So, we tried to.

get Congress to get I'll say to get. Congress to get a report that we are. very familiar with. They were unable to. do so. They were stonewalled. I'll say. they pretended like it doesn't exist. The DIA and we can't find it. Right. >> Right. >> We were we were fighting to get this out. to the public. >> What you can take to the bank is. Commander Fraver is the guy that chased. the Tic Tac. So he saw it with his own.

eyes. >> Was the mission to chase that Tic Tac or. was it an accident? >> Um both. So what happened was he's out. on a normal training mission. He's over. at another point and the guy calls him. up and says, "What weapons do you got on. board?" And he's like, >> "What?". >> He's like, "What? What weapons you got. on board?" He's like, "This is like a. training mission. It's like beautiful. day. Like nothing going on." So he's. already he made some joke. He's like, "I. got a CATM 9 if you got a sledgehammer.". Like basically, [laughter] you know, I. got nothing. >> Got nothing. >> So they're like, they task him to go out.

to a point and they go out and they. didn't give him any information. So he. thought maybe when he when they saw this. um circular. disturbed part of the water. >> at first. >> he thought was it like a down is like. something sinking like what's going on. and so as he gets closer he sees this. little tic tac you know down by the. water and he said like a like a ping. pong ball in a glass in a glass he said. it was just fucking insane you know and.

so the he goes I want to see what that. is and he dives down as he dives down. It starts it notices him. First of all, it like turns its nose and then starts. mirroring his exact flight path and then. it came up next to him and then like. that. And he goes, you could only see it. move because it was this like. disturbance of it moving. So you you. could see it go, but it it was just. absolutely beyond imagination for a guy. that flies some of the fastest planes,

right? And a guy that, by the way, protected. >> Los Angeles during 9/11. It's a very. trusted. There's no war nerves or. anything like this. >> Nope. >> Um, so the dude had a really good visual. on it. >> And he goes, "Where where'd it go?" And. his the controller is like, "You're not. going to believe it. Um, commander, it's at your cap point." And that was. like miles and miles away. We've tried. to calculate the time was almost. instantaneously. We're not sure because.

of the way the radar works, but also. that was an encrypted cap point. It was. almost like a like a a game of cat and. mouse like it knew. >> Like it knew. >> Yeah. So he wasn't going to shoot. anything down. He didn't have any hot. missiles, but when he saw it, his. curiosity he where other people were a. little bit terrified about what they. were seeing, he went and really went to. go see it. Um now there's a lot of. questions that that raise from that. So. original reporting you'll you'll have.

heard that there was something under the. water. Right now that's becomes this big. debate. There was an object that. appeared to be under the water. What was. this thing doing? Um well I'll tell you. it wasn't the only one. So there were. weeks of stuff up in above 80,000 ft. which they really didn't want me to say. for a long time because for some reason. that's the scanned volume of the spy one. but it was above 80,000 ft. >> So space. So that's a vehicle that. changes domains from space to air to.

sea. It was coming down and now I you. know I talked with some of the people. like Kevin Kuth who did the studies on. the on the speed of it dropping down but. for by all accounts that I know um. whatever speed it was dropping down um. defies our understanding of how that can. occur. >> and it doesn't disturb water. Right. >> So the tic tacs we never saw go into the. water. What happened was was all these. ones were loitering at two different. altitudes and this is I believe over the.

course of two weeks. Some of the. controllers were seeing them up there. So they knew this was an area of. interest but they just didn't have like. the gas or the time to go out there. Right. Also this is a training zone. If. if you see a black project, let me get. to that with who sees it next. Okay. So. they go this thing was going down and. the words that were said to me before. this was a famous public case was. docking. That was the cho the choice. word. Now they meant like a like a chi. charger like an air like it just seemed. to be hovering over this thing. Now the. disturbance of the water it was in a.

circular pattern but the thing that. appeared to be under the water appeared. to have a cross shape. Whatever whatever. there appeared to be something under the. water and these things coming down and. and and hitting over it again. It wasn't. one tic tac. It was many. >> And that's what people don't know. I I I. I don't know. We I I I could I could go. get a more accurate uh assessment. >> You mean like three or like 10? >> I I a dozen. >> A dozen. >> or more? >> Yeah. And I don't I always I'm so afraid.

of misspeaking. Let me go back to my. notes on everything. >> It's multiple. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Definitely. But it was it was something that was. occurring for a a duration of time. So, you have to ask yourself, what were they. doing? Like what was the mission? What. was the purpose? And that's what killed. me about this UFO stuff. They were never. looking to be seen, right? This is. something that was occurring that um was. obviously a job. Like there was. something going on. It drives my mind. crazy cuz like what's under the water? Is that like a refueling? Like sorry I. keep hitting the microphone my beard. Um.

you know like what's going on now? >> I think a lot of answers are under the. water. >> I I do too from all reports there. And. now you remember I brought Senior Chief. Wiggins public because we had a piece of. footage that George and I put out and I. found out by his uh presence that on. that ship I know everybody on that ship. I get to know people and they, you know, they'll tell me who I need to go talk. with. So, I found Senior Chief Wiggins. through a buddy of mine in the Navy, higher ranking Navy guy. And, you know, he admitted to me, there's nothing. wrong. He admitted to me he was there. He saw the whole thing. And then he came.

forward and talked on weaponized. We. brought him forward to Congress. He, you. know, he there is footage. He saw Tic. Tacs, one coming up out of the water. I. mean, it's like there's something going. on in the water, right? That's that's. all I know. But here's what happened. next with the tic tac. So. when you know Commander Fraver, you know. he's like a he's like a head of the. black aces man. That guy answers to. nobody, you know. He just does his own. thing. >> So he sees his buddy Commander Underwood.

and he was about to go do the next. flight. He's got a full tank of gas. He's a a wizo. So he um you his job is. to record shit, right? And he says, "This is where we saw it. It went to the. new cap point which which baffles them. because it if it was and it was actively. jamming their weapons or their their. radar systems. It was. >> Yeah. They don't like saying it anymore. I guess like top brass told them don't. say it anymore is my is what I'm. thinking cuz that's a act of war. But if. you look at my original interviews with. them, >> they say it out loud. So So there was.

active jamming. >> and and that is an aggress that is. considered in their world an act of war, an aggressive maneuver. They made that. very clear. >> Um, so whoever it was had a technology. that was uh able to effectively actively. jam. >> So then he sends out his buddy um. Underwood and uh his call sign is nuts. by the way. You do you do the math. So. um and and David Sex Fraver by the way.

is his call sign. So yeah, come on. These Navy [laughter] guys, man. Sex. Favor and nuts man. Okay. So, so Nuts. goes out and you know he picks up the. target right where Fraver said it would. be and or in that vicinity and he's just. flipping through every optic system that. he has cuz it's like collecting data to. bring back to the the intel guys. So he. does all that and why we know it as the. tic tac is cuz he comes back for debrief. >> and they go so so what what what do it. look like? What's going on? They put it.

up on this big screen and and he has to. say something and he he remembered. airplane the movie and he remembers that. dude saying I don't know it was like uh. shaped like a Tylenol but you know has. it [laughter] has like wings and like. and he's like I can't say that. He's a. big fan of like old '8s movies. He goes. I'm sure it looked like a t it looked. like a tic tac. So that's how we know it. as the tic tac UFO cuz he didn't want to. say the airplane thing. So anyway, so so. he comes back and he does all that and. it baffles them, man. This footage kind.

of went around in little circles for a. while. I'd always heard about it, but it. was, you know, without soliciting. I. don't know how you get it, right? Cuz. none of these guys, you know, but but it. but it was it was kind of showing up in. these little groups of people. That's. how it kind of got this lore cuz they. they did at some point have a VHS tape. that was going through pilot circles. Um, anyway, somehow mysteriously that. footage did make its way back to the. internet. >> right in time for a Coast to Coast show. that George and I had the day of a Coast. coast show. It was like people listening.

and watching and knowing that I wanted. to see that footage cuz it appeared. online and we were able to point to it. and that was way before it was a public. case. You hear us on the radio kind of. dancing around it. We reported on it. twice before it was part of the New York. Times thing, >> right? You know, so basically I said to. Underwood, "Hey man, how do you know. this isn't ours?" You know, because it. would be really cool. In some ways, it'd. be cool if it was ours. Really shitty. They've been covering up, you know, like, "How do you know it's not ours?". And he goes, >> I said, "Have you ever seen a black.

project accidentally?" And he's like, "It's happened." [laughter]. >> And I'm like, "So, so what happens when. you see that?" And he goes, "Oh." He. goes, "There are strict protocols. You. come in for a debrief. You sign an NDA. you are not to talk about this. experimental craft by this corporation. or that corporate, you're not to talk. about it. Forget about it. So that's why. he could only say to me, it's happened, you know, but there are protocols for. that. >> Sure. >> So you're in an area where it is.

dangerous to be operating experimental. technologies in the middle of the ocean, right? Doesn't feel to me like a a. proper planned thing. >> No. Um, it's actively jamming our weapon. systems, which, you know, is very. dangerous how it's been described to me. by them. That's also not a thing. >> I either forgot about that or didn't. know that, >> right? I I don't know. They they kind of. have stopped talking about the act of. jamming. I don't know if he said it in. Congress, Fraver, but but if you listen.

to the original reporting that that I. did on, they say it with their own. mouths. Underwood talks about active. jamming talks about. >> um and Fraver, you know, this circular. disturbance was there was some appeared. to be an object under there which we. would call a USO, you know. >> Um so that's another strike against that. it's something that's ours is that. there's no protocols. None of them were. ever had to sign an NDA about this, right? This is something that just. happened. >> Why wouldn't they have to sign an NDA?

>> Because it's not a known um issue. It's. not a known they they they just went out. on it. They there was nothing secret. about it. >> But cuz there's been no ramifications. against Braver, right? >> No, no, no. Zero. But then the nail in. the coffin for me was in in Congress. And here's what he said publicly. He. says, I don't know if he said my current. employment, he has a classified job. right now. Okay. His job would. allow him to understand what our highest.

capabilities are right now and what. they're going to be in the future. He. has a very um he has a lot of. responsibility in his new job. Commander. Fraver. >> So he's really still trusted. >> extremely. Oh yeah, Fraver. >> It's this is very it's a confusing story. to me. >> It is very confusing. But he didn't do. any he didn't do anything wrong. >> No, he didn't. But. >> no, >> he didn't leak anything. He didn't go. talk outside of school. His name was. brought into the public like I told him. it would be. Um not by me, by other.

people. >> But he's telling you release information. people in jail. And yet he's still this. trusted. >> Well, he what? Oh, no. What I told him. wasn't about his story in the movie. Yes. >> I was telling him about how agencies. have done what I thought at the time. were was super illegal things. >> Yes. Like for example, targeting Matthew Brown with words like. um counter intelligence on American.

assets, like targeting Dylan Borland. with words like espionage to me. OD and. I saying those words to me about my. friends and lying about them. I thought. that was going to get them put in jail. >> Fuck. I was naive. >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Super naive. You were. Apparently, it's. okay to do these things [clears throat]. >> to people if it's our government and not. other governments. Yes. >> So, I've never told and I'm not going to. right now, but that there is another.

story to all that. I just I was very. naive. So, in that in that movie when. you see me all bent out of shape and I'm. talking to Fraver, I thought if I. documented everything and these crimes I. thought were committed against. whistleblowers, if I brought them to. light internally that people would go to. jail for what they did. Boy, was I. wrong. So. anyway, um, back to the tic tac. Um, Fraver, he's in Congress and he goes. like this. He goes, "We didn't have that.

technology in 2004. We do not have that technology in 2024, whatever it was when he testified." He. goes, "We're not even conceiving to work. on that technology for 50 years." you. know, he's like he's like it's just like. >> it wasn't ours in 2004. It wasn't a. private contract. So that that's another. kind of nail in the coffin that whatever. it was was outside of our purview. Um so. I'm there. That's where I'm at right.

now. But I am always open to learning. new information and and having gotten it. wrong. I'll be the first to raise my. hand and say I got it wrong. Same. They. they they've excluded I mean I've met. with I'll say George and I have met with. a federal agency uh in an official. badged meeting with a number of people. at the table and it was conveyed to us. that. we have excluded Russia and China from.

being fabricators of the tic tac as. well. And one more thing, in 2019, George Knapp and I reported on a. swarming of 10 Navy warships in 2019 off. the coast of California where there was. multi- types of footage that we obtained. and released. It was thermal, so the. black and white from the USS Omaha. >> It was the green, so you say night. vision through a PVS14, which does not. have a bouquet triangle-shaped lens. I.

have one myself. The camera itself, then. they move the goalpost and they're like, "The camera itself had a triangular. shaped lens." Nonsense. I know the. people that were involved in that. That's okay. Um, pyramid in um triangle by angle of. observation, pyramid in shape. I didn't. make that up. That's in their own. documentation. I George and I put out a. couple slides that talk about triangle. by angle of observation. internally they. they they have more sensors than than.

you're seeing little glimpses of. >> Sure. >> So they believe there was pyramid in. shape over that was USS Russell. >> Then we had deck footage which was very. important. It looks like footage. >> So just a dude with an iPhone on a deck. So we so I was able to. >> somehow be the receiver of many. different types of footage. I got radar. footage sent to me, right? So you can. see multiple targets at once. I think. there's 10 at one time surrounding a. ship. And I put out the radar footage. that was from inside the bridge, right?

And it's not an easy thing to obtain, especially when you're not asking for. it, right? Okay. Then we've got the. thermal footage where you see the um. eggshaped object. You know, you. >> heard about that one. >> It's got no uh rotor wash, no nothing, no heat signatures coming off of it. They say splash splash in the video. They're not saying it made a splash. They're saying that means it went under. the water. I'll tell you they did deploy. a submarine to try to look for it. They. did. They did and they did not find it. Hopefully though that'll be in like.

people like Jay Stratton's new book and. I hope he talk cuz he ran a lot of that. investigation. He had people on the. ships for UAPF the day after it. happened. I have met some of the federal. agents who are on the ships. I've. sidebarred them and tried to ask them. individually what was it? No, we know it. wasn't China. We know it wasn't Russia. So what happens is in a 100 mile radius. 2019 there's a swarm of our Navy ships. and they're they're doing workups for. deployment and all of a sudden there are. these acrobatics of all these things and.

I've talked to kids on the ships who. were just like standing out there. I. told you I I had deck footage that I put. out which to me I put out last because. the least visually. understandable and important but it's. like inky darkness but you see lights. Now why was that important? Because you. have thermal, you have infrared, you. have radar. Baba bing, I have finally. I've got somebody just with an iPhone. You know, you start asking around, people are like, I got my iPhone that. that was, you know, I was out there on. the deck with my iPhone. Okay, cool. So,

all of a sudden, I received something. like that. >> Validate where it's from using the GPS. data and the time stamps. And like. basically why that's important is. because these things were self luminous. So, cuz people tried to say, you know, all this different stuff about what it. was or was it wasn't, but these things. were self luminous. You could see them. in that last bit of footage. So, you've. got four types of footage, one being. radar. You've got all these witnesses. that have testified or or talked to me. about it. George, I mean, at this point,

dozens and dozens and dozens of people. This was not an isolated incident. It's. just the one that somehow we obtained a. ton of footage of. These swarms were. happening a ton. I, you know, four, five, maybe six cases that have been. reported to me about this. But why this. was so important because we could. provide the public with actual physical. data, proof, visual evidence of it. And. it was inside these government. investigations. We put out a couple. slides to show their um analysis of it.

the the kudigra for me was people said. that it was the bass straight cargo ship. that was like launching these by the way. they're they're about you know maybe 10. ft like that you can tell the profile of. it you know they weren't small. >> right. >> so people said and even on Wikipedia. still says the Bass Strait cargo ship. was a Chinese ship you know was like. launching things. >> okay well Bass Strait was boarded the. second it got into Long Beach and by the. way the ballet was still going on when.

astrate was in port. People forget that. And um I know some of the agents that. boarded the ship, they found nothing. And here's the coupe grow. I found the. one sailor whose only job during that. event was to watch the bass straight. through all the um visuals to make sure. it wasn't launching or landing anything. and he came unweaponized by voice and. told he wishes that he could report to.

us that we knew who was launching those. and he couldn't because they weren't. coming off of the Bass Strait, but if. you go to Wikipedia, I believe it still. says. >> probably. >> Yeah, it's total propaganda bullshit. >> Of course. >> Yeah. So, cuz they don't know where they. were coming from. They were coming from. the They were coming from the west. There's nothing over there but Hawaii, man. What were they launching off of? Where were they landing? If they're. these autonomous, where were they. landing? >> There's nothing there. >> There's nothing there. So, somebody's. got a pretty cool technology that can do.

and perform in just fun ways. And it's. >> it's not China. >> So many resources were spent on figuring. out. So, it's not China, it's not. Russia, and unfortunately, it's not us. >> And that that would have been uh. comforting, but it's not us. and it's. been happening more and more. >> Uh, it so more frequently. >> Um, it's hard for me to say more. frequently because I've told a lot of. people not to call me anymore. [laughter].

I know. It's like, you know, that's cool. that happened on your mission, but. probably shouldn't call me about that. stuff. You know, I just I fear now that. I'm on so many radars that anybody who. speaks out of school is going to be. penalized for. I mean, I've had people. in the Navy who have nothing to do with. the UFO topic who are just my friends. who have been questioned. It's a. horrible feeling. >> I would only talk to you on Signal. >> Even [laughter] Signal is not private, man. But it's just, you know what I. mean? It's like I've there have been too. many false targets on people. I told you.

a couple of them today like my buddy. Logan and um. >> everybody suspect that surround me and. George of like you know they really want. to know how stuff gets to journalists. and you know if it's the the end of my. career that's the one thing I I will. protect. Um. and luckily. everybody's got it wrong. so far. >> You know everyone's got it wrong. >> There's been a lot of Yeah. There have. been a lot of attempts to try to um.

close that uh window and it had the. reverse effect meaning when people have. been shook down or they've been like. threatened like what do you know? Um. it's just caused more people to come to. me and George in person. >> and um I guess that's a positive thing. >> It is because you're the first line of. defense. >> Yeah. Mhm. >> Tell the Matthew Brown story. >> Smuggling him. muggling. That was fun. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> But started start where you made the.

decision, >> right? How did we make it? >> Like it's like a heist movie. Like. you're in a room like here's what we're. going to do. >> It sounds [laughter] so cool. Uh. >> you're going to do what? No, no, no. It's going to work. It's going to. >> Yeah. He we were and we did not trust. each other. Me and me and M. This is. like the story like we did not trust. you. Like I was sure. >> that some guy that wants to talk with. Congress is just using me to like make. me look like an idiot. And he had no.

like he was trying to figure out who he. could trust. He made some slip ups at. the beginning like trust in fake. journalists, you know, journalists that. are really there will hurt you. Um. people that you can't trust with your. cat's name. You know what I mean? >> You can name them if you want to. I I. don't I I don't I I don't want to give. attention to people know my sentiments. Look at some point um I'll probably have. to tell that whole story and I'll do it. in the right way. >> Um. >> right just basically Matthew Brown was. figuring who he could trust.

>> just just in one or two sentences. What. what did Matthew find? >> Very little. It was very small. And he's. such a patriotic dude and he's such a. thinker. But what he found was a. report or what was the power like a. briefing? Yeah, briefing. >> on something they were calling. Immaculate Constellation. And because he he was tasked at the time.

with sorting and filing and cleaning up. basically a digital archive, he's like, "The fuck is this? It's like talking. about UFOs and it's talking about us. watching the Russians have a rendevous. with a known possibly a known you know. uh manifestation of a craft overse like. all I mean it was just like. >> it's pretty wild but there was like you. know there was evidence inside of that. briefing.

>> and um it's not something that should. from what I understand it's not. something that should have been filed. where it was filed so he kind of like. reads through it all So you got to know. what you're looking at, right? And it's. it's fascinating. >> It is. And his job is to file it. >> It is. So he needs to know what's in it, right? So what really kind of stood the. hairs up on his arms was, you know, he's. like, "Okay, this definitely shouldn't. be in there." So it's a it's about, you. know, it's about how we're watching UFOs. interact with other nations and how. we're have passive tracking of UFOs and. active tracking. And he's like, "Well,

this is pretty crazy." And I don't know. at that point I think David Gush had. come out so it was on everybody's radar. right so you know he's thinking is this. a is this a trick is this like a test. like what's going on but he quickly. learned it wasn't because he went first. to his boss and then his boss's boss and. it was very nonchalant like they didn't. say much to him and he didn't know like. does he have to do a does he have to. sign anything for having seen this and. it just got really weird for him and he.

felt very uncomfortable because he's so. patriotic America because the world was. asking, Congress was asking for. whistleblowers. It was asking for people. and he did not want to go public. So he. sees all this UAP related stuff. But. again, it's it's just a sliver. It was. an operation and it I didn't just. validate this through Matthew Brown. George and I did extensive work to. figure out is this a real program before. we bit, right? And to our satisfaction, absolutely. It goes by a different name. now, but it was um it was called that at.

one time and it was like they were. working on this document. It was like a. working document. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. So it was like very strange. So So. when Matt, you know, ended up getting to. me and George, my my I'm just like, dude, someone's going to take me for a. ride. Like I like very little trust. And. and he also didn't know who to trust. I. guess he had a better sense because he. saw our work. But you know. getting to through to Congress can be. very hard because the process who you. have to ask to get there can really.

expose people like what are you doing? What are you breaking from the fold? Don't you like your life? What you you. want to stop working for the United. States government? I mean it could could. get really messy really quick. >> Mhm. >> So he had done everything that he could. do but to get to certain people uh. senators and congress people at the time. I I had I was working very closely to. get these hearings going. So, he kind of. made a good bet on me that I would be. able to get him in, but I was unsure how. that was going to go, too. So, what.

happened was I said, "Okay, I'm going. in. Um, meet me on this day. I have been. authorized to have a full camera crew, [clears throat]. so you're just going to roll with the. camera crew." And if. >> he's carrying a boom or something. >> No, no, no. He's just walking with us, you know, but it was like cuz also he's. going in there with his face. It's one. of the most highly, you know, monitored. places by intelligence agencies as well. because a lot of the leaks come out of. Congress. You ask, ask any human. intelligence guy and they're going to.

tell you or anybody in human. intelligence, they're going to tell you. the biggest leaks in American history. have always come out of Congress like. they're, you know, that's a thing for. them. So, they monitor this. So, he's. like, "Am I doing the right thing? I. know I'm doing the right thing. How do I. do the right thing? Meet this crazy. bearded guy with tattoos." But he but he. knows [laughter] George, so he must be. on the level, you know? And I was like, "Okay." But he wasn't with me. I was. like, "Let's go in." I have um like five. scheduled meetings. It's all for this. filming that I'm doing there. Out of all. these meetings, we're going to start.

with somebody I very much trust, has. 100% of my trust. The only guy that said. my name in Congress out loud when the. the he calls them the spooks that the or. the suits, the two CIA guys at that. weird hearing I told you about said, "Do. not say his name." They told Rep. Burchett, "Do not say his name. He is a. a security issue." Is what Burchett said. publicly. They used different words. about me. And first thing he did when he. got to that microphone is he said, "I.

want to thank my buddy, my pal Jeremy. Corbel for bringing in documents and. introducing us to whistleblowers." And. somebody had coughed Comey or whatever. Comr coughed while he was saying it. They didn't want mentioned in that. hearing. Burchett did it anyway. So I. really trust Burchett. >> Yeah. Um because. >> why why just to keep your name out of. the record? >> I I I don't fully know, but I I know. that. >> because everybody knows you. >> I know. It was so bizarre. They they. wanted to make it seem like people. should go to Michael Shelonburgger as a.

if you're a witness rather than to me. It was two and a half months of of. bringing documents, having them vetted, working with Congress, getting up to. that point. There's a part of the story. I'm not telling which happened what. happened the night before. It was. absolutely mechanically planned. I submitted those documents the night. before. I knew something was a little weird. So. I actually brought those documents with. me that morning and there was there.

thank god there was a watermark. accidentally. It was a bad printer the. night before at like whatever hotel I. was at and it made this mark. I'm like. oh man it's dirty. That's no good. Thank. God because that's a forensic evidence. When they removed the top sheet and they. started and and they they uploaded a. blank page, you could see it was what I. brought in that morning. They quickly. and I know who tore it off. I know what. they said in the room cuz I had eyes in. the room. They were trying to make sure.

that I was not the trusted person for. whistleblowers and that other people. would be. And there's a reason that they. were trying to do that and that is the. big rub and at some point another story. another time why that's important. >> I have a question about that but I can't. ask it on air. >> Okay. Well after Yeah. No problem. >> Um look it's very dangerous if we're. asking whistleblowers to come in to. speak with Congress. You have to.

understand there are people that are. very worthy of your trust. But it is a. viper's pit. When I have been on the. phone with the with the staffers, they. have put national security people on the. call with me. They tried to get me and. George into a skiff with our best. evidence. I told them, I will show the. world everything that I got. I want. total protection in doing so. I will. bring it in. We will show it. We will.

stream it in the in the in the hearing. And I got. >> If you're skipped, you're locked up, I. think. So, so that's why my lawyer said, so what happened was um I was told I. said here are the terms George and I. will come in. We we know these are. identified as UAP to the public. These. are will come hell or high water. These. are coming out. Let's do it in a. professional way. And we were offered to. come into a skiff before. You have to. show what it is that you want the public. to know. And I got a call from a.

Congress person and they said to me, "Heads up, the people that are supposed to be in. that meeting, we're not even going to be. there." It it's a trap. You they're. inviting you in because whatever you. bring into that meeting, you will you. will not be leaving with. It will be. reverse classified. >> Correct. >> Yeah. So, yeah, my lawyer shut that down. instantaneously. >> Correct. >> But it's okay. It comes out anyway. through journalism. We've released a. bunch of it. >> No, but it's I think it's important for.

people listening to know the skiff is is. not your friend. >> No. No. And. >> is that DIA that got in the way there. again? >> Um, no. DIA has has never gotten in the. way. Um, actually the DIA has never got. in the way to me on that. Oh, because. the files. Yeah. >> Who was setting up that skiff? >> You don't have to name I just agency. >> Yeah. Well, it's it's complicated. It's. not one agency. Okay. So, so, so when. you're in this these congressional. setups, right? Um, there's a bunch of.

interested parties that need to vet the. people that will be talking. And. sometimes I'm surprised with what. agencies are represented in those Zoom. meetings. >> What agency surprised you? >> Um, that, you know, I think Homeland. Security maybe they were um like it was. very surprising to me. There was a they. call them national security advisors and. stuff like that. Yeah. I think most. agencies are represented. Here's.

something that really surprised me. I. know we were going on a story and we'll. get there, but what really surprised me. >> was when I helped set up the last. hearing. Okay, so you want like 14 potential. whisters and you're just going to. cherrypick like five of them. >> I said, "Okay, we'll play that game. again." I let everybody know this is a. game and they might just be siphoning. off information, but I trust some of. these people. Um, what surprised me was. the one agreement that I made with the. congressional group that I was working.

with is that Arrow gets zero of the. information because I had zero trust for. Arrow. They they get zero of this. This. is absolutely confidential. Anybody that. I provide you a one sheet on that I have. them come in their suit and tie and they. sit there on camera to see none of those. names get passed to Arrow. Zero of them. or it's not happening. Yeah. So, some of these people were. reached out to by Arrow, of course. Yeah. >> So, and and like it's not the Congress.

people's fault. It's like they they said. to me, you know, we've got a leak. We've. got a leak to Arrow. Like, it's you. know, it's not their fault, but that's. how little you can trust when you start. getting more and more people into the. room. >> uh of how they're handling it. So, um, but they knew the people that I brought. forward, they knew that that was a a. potential, you know, um, even like, um, Senior Chief Wiggins, uh, you know, he's. a a single father. Um, he's at one year. away from his retirement. I mean, there.

is no good reason for him to raise his. head above the parapit here, except for. what he said. It's the right thing to. do, >> right? >> You know, and and my dad would be proud. of me, dude. You know, it's the right. thing to do. So the problem is is that. he did get pressured after by Arrow. directly and this is public. We we did a. thing with him on stage. We talked, we. got it, you know, bring it out into the. public, put it into the light. So what. happened was um they threatened him that. if he didn't debrief with Arrow that.

they were going to get Pete Hegse to. command it, which is like when you're in. the Navy, that would be the top of the. top. That is the top of the top. >> Tech. >> Yes. So, so their threat not only by the. way to him to his commanding officer was. that if he doesn't and he says I. respectfully declined. I've said. everything that I need to say. I told. the whole story under oath in front of. Congress done story. I am just doing my. job now. And they and why would they so. desperately.

>> want him to come in and and and debrief. to the point where they threaten him. with the SEC defaf is going to come. which is a bullshit thing. He's not. going to come. always know. >> Yeah. Yeah. And we kind of knew that, but we just thought it was so crude. away. Now, I ask you, if he already. testified to everything and he said it. under oath, what could they possibly. want to know? They know the list of. everybody on that ship. They can hear. some of the voices in the video that. George and I put out. So, that was a. trap. They are trying to pressure him. So, no Navy guy ever will talk, you.

know, will come forward like that or. come to Congress. That's what they were. doing. So that that's kind of what you. get like a like an overt kind of threat, but some of it's more like, you know, covert. It's just trying to make you. uncomfortable. >> So the whistleblower protection is all. nonsense. >> This is what really disturbs me right. now about um you know, >> there's so many guys that are just not. going to do it. >> Well, like like what what are the. whistleblower protections? Because we. have Matt Brown, we have Dylan Borland, we have David Grush. You know, they're.

sitting there without help. I mean, other than Dave is is working, you know, um, in a in good capacity right now, um, with Congress, but it's like, what. protections do you have? These guys. can't go back to their their normal. jobs. They they they have to find a way. to to make a living. Um, every group. that said they were going to help them. didn't. I see the people standing up. these funds for whistleblowers. How. about helping the whistleblowers that. already need help right now who have. already come forward? It's like a. charade, dude. I I'm sorry. Sorry, I'm.

going to get a lot of heat for this, but. what is this scientific advisory panel? Do you know who runs that? Is ODNI, the. same ODNI who ran that 9-month thing. that I regretfully, you know, brought. whistleblowers into. Open eyes, but. regretfully now. >> So, what does OD and I need this panel. for? If they want the answers, they can. go get the answers. First call I get. from people on this panel is, "What. secret stuff do you and George have that. we could ask them questions about?". Isn't that completely reverse? Like,

give them data. Let them analyze it for. public good, >> right? What do you need us for? >> I I I don't I don't I don't get it. I. haven't really talked with everybody. involved. I'd love to hear from each of. them why they're participating in this. panel, what they hope to achieve. If. they can't look at classified. information, what are they going to be. given? >> That panel should have oversight of the. intelligence committee. No, >> I I I don't know because none of them. have clearances for that. So ODNI has. oversight over everybody. ODNI is.

running the panel, the scientific. advisory board. So what are they? >> But but Congress has no oversight over. that. >> I I I I don't know. I hope they do. >> Who do they report to? >> ODNI. What does ODNI need? >> What do they need? >> I don't know. So So I'm I'm highly I I. know people are gonna be so mad at me, but I am because. >> I'm I'm highly because I have a lot of. friends are on that panel, but it's like. what? Okay. Looks good. You're like. doing a scientific panel, you know, but. like what does ODNI need? You don't.

think they have scientists? What does. ODNI need of you? They need a public. facing thing, right? >> ODNI is using you in order to message. something. Now, positive look on this. Positive look is okay, maybe they want. to disclose some stuff and you guys look. through the evidence and come up with a. conclusion yourself and oh golly gee, like that's a positive thing. I don't. believe for one second. No, ODNA is not. looking to get I think they're doing a. data collection just like they did for. those nine months that they get all. these scientists, these people on board. and they say, "What can you bring us to.

analyze?" And then it's it's a. collection thing. >> Yes. >> In my opinion, now I'd love to be wrong. and I'm not demeaning what they're. doing. Some of my friends are on this. panel. Then do good work, but find out. what you're going to be analyzing. >> Did you advise them? Don't accept the. position. >> I don't advise nobody on nothing but. myself, man. Like I, you know, I I don't. see 360. Maybe they know a lot more than. I do, but it seems half-hazardly put. together. >> Y. >> and what is the point? If ODNI is. running it, what do they need you for?

Are they they already said they can't. give anything classified, so what do. they need you to analyze? Now, I'd love. to find out like, let's let this play. out just like the government releases. Let's let it play out a little bit. Let's see what they talk about. But. again, if they don't talk about. biologics and they don't talk about. reverse engineering, there you have. David Grush standing up there saying, "I. am directly aware of biologics, dude. Nonhuman bodies, bro." Right. A and.

reverse engineering. Okay. So, that's. going to be a problem if America doesn't. come clean on it. Um I I hope it's a. problem. >> Did David ever give you the names? >> Names of what? >> Of who he heard from. Well, David. >> I don't want to get him in trouble. >> Yeah. Yeah. David um David has always. done. >> We need that guy. >> Yeah, >> we need that guy. >> I I found out some of the names not by. David. That that was like a leak to me. from ODNI, which is really weird.

>> Really? >> Yeah, bro. I was on the receiving end of. a whole bunch of shit that I never. should have heard. >> I don't even know how you can trust. that. But okay. >> Other than it's it's not just them. telling me. It's like, how do I dance. here? Um, OD and I. told me, and I'm saying OD and I because. there's like good people in there and. people that I'm not sure about, but in.

general, I I heard about stuff specifics. that I never should have heard about. So, for example, I went on stage in Oregon with Dylan. because we're let's get out in front of. this again. Now, >> OD and I told me about a program name. called Rubik's Cube. >> What? >> Dylan never told me about that, but they.

were telling me that that was something. that that Dylan knew about. I ask him on. stage and if he didn't know about it. Dylan, I don't know about it. I asked. him on stage and he's like, I I would. love to be able to tell you what I know. about that in full, but right now I. don't know what the law is or that I'm. restricted. It was an obvious yes. >> Obvious. >> Wow. >> They told me that he drew So, he drew. something for me and George in in Vegas. Um that was really uh what he saw. It. was like this um triangle craft that he.

he saw. He never drew for us a pyramid power. source with some sort of symbol on it. That was told to me by OD and I. >> a symbol on it. >> Yeah, man. Wow. >> So, I asked Dylan, "Hey, man, they're. telling me a bunch of wild shit. >> Did you ever draw these drawings?" And. again, it was like Stonewall like, you. know, Dylan has to be by the book, man. you. He has to be. They all do because.

we don't I don't know what's sensitive. or not, but you could tell by his. answers publicly. And I asked him, I. said, "I'm going to ask you some hard. questions. Is that okay? Just if you. can't answer, can't answer." But I. wanted to know. So, what I'm saying is. there was an inappropriate relationship. where I was being told things to try to. diminish or demean these whistleblowers. All of which I come to find out um first. of all some of them weren't true about. things like they said Matt Brown had. made up the Immaculate Constellation. stuff and that he had admitted that in.

ODNI and I go back I was like did you. get it all recorded? He was furious. They said that he was um racist and all. this stuff. They were trying to get me. and George to do their dirty work to. turn on David Grush, Lou Alzando, Matthew Brown, Dylan Borland, um even. Hal Putoff, uh Jay Stratton. They. brought everybody's name up to us. And. now I get it. Now I get it, which is. that they were trying to my to my best. assessment. They were trying to get us.

to go out and do the dirty work for them. and say that all these people are out. for themselves and they're all liars or. they're lunatics. And it didn't work. because what am I going to do? Of. course, I'm going to call these guys and. say, "Dude, I just heard the craziest. shit." When I told Matt Brown that they. said that he was like a Jewing racist, that's what they said, >> right? When I told him that he was at. his buddy's wedding who was Jewish, >> right? >> They didn't know he was also part. Jewish. It was so ridiculous to me that. um the way they tried to manipulate and.

this is what I thought with Fraver in. the in the movie. This is what I thought. would get some of these guys in trouble. was that they were manipulating. journalists, telling them lies, which. apparently is legal. Yep. >> And saying horrible things and some of. which criminal sounding things against. some of the whistleblowers. I didn't know that was legal in America, but apparently it is. >> for national security. Sure. Everything's legal. >> Everything falls under that. >> So, I know we got way off track. You had.

you had said something. >> Okay. We were talking about Matt Brown. getting smuggled in. >> Oh, smuggled in. Yeah. You got a good. memory there. Well, just to finish that. story, that was pretty funny. So, we. don't trust each other. Yeah. and all. this stuff where we're just like, who. the heck's this guy? And I said, look, I'm going to get you in front of three. that I really trust. We'll start with, you know, somebody I've known the. longest. Um there there was actually. five meetings, but there's like these. three I want you to, you know, present. your 60 seconds of what you got to say. Now, he didn't want to testify. This was. just getting the information to the.

people that were asking for it. They. they were literally asking. whistleblowers to come forward, right? So, how do you physically get a meeting. and get in there without raising a. billion alarm bells? >> So, he's walking with the the camera. crew. We do the sit down filming in the. first place. And I said, "Hey, >> so I've got a whole crew with me, but. one of these people is actually a. whistleblower." And um the thing is it. would just be you, me, and this person. If everybody else leaves, are you. comfortable with that? I I think you.

want to hear what this person has to. say. you know, three minutes, something. like that. First one, um, absolutely no. no hesitation. Cleared the room. One guy. came back in, that was Matthew Brown, sat down, said, "This is what I know to. be true. This is what happened to me, and I've tried to put it through all of. the the proper channels. um I I'm not looking to testify, but you asked for people to come.

forward, so I'm now giving you my. report. That that was his report. And he. and he gave it. And then I said, "Okay, um we're going to we're going to go into. another office. You know, what's my. trust level?" I said to my friend, um, "What's my trust level?" They're like, "It's good to talk, but don't give them. a document." Right? Went into the next. same situation. Sat down, everybody left, comes back in. We do that three times. Another person. we gave documents to just to make sure. they were circulating. Um, and so that.

really built trust because I did get. them in, they did take them seriously. and they did offer to always be there if. anything arai happens. But again, we. were far away from it being mentioned in. Congress at that point. I I I had to go. through with them and the documents and. validate what Matthew Brown had said. And I'm I was able to do that, you know, um to validate that not only was he in. the position that he said he was in, but. also that the content of what he was.

reporting on was an actual program. >> And you were able to. >> I was able to do that. So was George, >> right? Because they know you're on to it. at that point. There's some people. that'll. >> u let you in that much. Yeah. So that's. the Matthew Brown smuggling him in. And. you know then I've you know we've really. I've tried to George and I've tried to. make sure that he has a certain layer of. protections because if you want to. believe it or not I mean he's gone. public with it like during this time. >> I believe him. >> Yeah. He he had a breakin in his house.

while he was asleep with his wife and. all they did was spread out his um. wife's IDs like to take a photo of him. uh smash his grandfather's ashes. You're kidding. >> Nope. >> So, that would be a covert harassment. that I We don't know who did it. >> We know who did it. >> Well, I I don't know specifically who. did. Yeah. Or what agencies would be. involved, but clearly they wanted to. send a message.

>> Don't go forward with this, >> you know, and and he went forward with. it. He thought it was important. Yeah. So, I trust him, >> you know. I know he's telling me the. truth. >> to the best of his uh he doesn't have a. big picture on all this, but he's got. part of it. >> from from the jump. I always felt like. he was telling the truth. >> Yeah. >> He always seems like he's just trying to. do the right thing. Like he reported it. right away. >> He did. >> And and his supervisor said, "Don't. worry about it.". >> Dylan Borland, man, he he went into.

ICIG, right? This is a guy like I know. him very well now. Um he went in and did. an official whistleblower ICIG, did drawings for them of everything that. he was exposed to, which I now know. because of the what was said to me by. ODNI. I now know part of it was a. pyramid-shaped. I guess a power source with a uh symbol. symbols on it or something like that. And he drew that for OD and I. So if he. if he's out here like a ruse, would you.

go into the police of the intelligence. community? >> Hell no. >> Right. This is not a career enhancing. thing. >> No. >> And he had worked a long time, high. roles of responsibility, Dylan did. And. and he thought this was really. important. Um and he's had also these. types of reprisals, these things that. have been done to him. >> Just little messages. >> Yeah, man. Some of it's gnarly. You can. never prove it. Part part of the thing. is, you know, maybe they want you to. look like paranoid or unhinged, but you.

know, I know a lot of these guys and. they've all had issues that are not. normal issues. Um, but the biggest one. was OD and I tried to say to me that he. drew something that he didn't draw that. was actually classified like a sensor. system is what it was said to me. And. they used a word with me, espionage, about him. >> And they were fishing to see if he ever.

drew me and George anything that he. shouldn't. And I was like, "Lucky for. me." No, he didn't. But now I know what. what you're saying. And um I went back I. went straight to Dylan and I was like, "Does any of this ring a bell?" And that. he didn't he didn't not answer me like. the other things on that one. He goes. total bullshit. He goes I wouldn't even. know how to draw that. And he got so mad. about it too because think about it. So.

you got an OD and guy saying to me this. is what he said in the skiff. The fuck. this guy supposed to tell me what what. Dylan Borland said in a skiff, right? And then I get told that he drew some. sensor system and I went to him and I. said, "This is I want you to know. this. is what they're saying about you. So, they're writing a report. He got furious. and I have the text messages he sent to. the ODNI group. Goes, I want to know. what you're writing in that because if I. if I did that, show me the video. Like, where's the video of me? Cuz cuz. otherwise they could plan this whole.

thing against him. Um, and fabricate. evidence, which is what I think they. were trying to do, >> and just to shut him up. >> Yeah, of course. >> So, so we made a big stink about it. >> Um, me, Dylan, and some other people. And um they never let him back in to. show him where he allegedly did this. Everything that he drew in um the ICIG. before the ODIN, I think it was all. filmed, man. So, show us a journalist. and George, show us all the evidence of.

where he drew this highly classified. thing for ICIG that he mistook as alien. technology. It It was so weird, dude. What I saw was our government trying to. fabricate, I believe, fabricate evidence. against a whistleblower. >> to put him in Levvenworth for 25 years. >> or to just create a a stress situation. where he was paralyzed to move. I don't. know they would have follow if they had. followed through with that then all the. evidence comes out, right? So I I think. it was more like a threat.

>> Yeah. >> So I'll just tell you I went to the in. the movie you see me say you know people. would go to jail for this. Yes, I went. to the highest levels that I could and. talked with my federal lawyer and my. family about this, saying, "This is the. evidence that I have of our intelligence. agencies trying to set up. whistleblowers." And I was sure that I. was going to get a certain type of. response. And I will tell you that I did. not get the response.

I kind of got the response. Well, it wasn't the Russians or Chinese, right? I kind of got the response that if it's. us. doing these shenanigans, then it's okay. And that was. disheartening. >> Yeah, it is. >> Yeah. Weird stuff, bro. I just interested in. the the UFOs, [laughter]. >> right? I'm just trying to simp UFOs.

>> and now you got cameras everywhere. >> Are they harassing you? Are you seeing. the same agents? >> I'm not seeing him like dating them. No, >> no, I mean the like the same people show. up. I'm wondering if there's if there's. a unit put together, >> right? The watchers we call them, my. friends and I, as a joke, um, you know, the only the odd thing for me was all. the hearings in the hearings. Um, I had. some guy come up and whisper in my ear, "You think you're gonna make it to the. steps?". Yep. That's why I had my buddy Dan.

Clearary walk with me that other time. cuz um it was just like a weird thing. and you know, you can't put your finger. like who is that? Well, that same dude I. watched and I looked at some of the. footage in another hearing and I saw him. there a suit, you know. So, I I I did I. have seen a couple times the same dudes. because I had a whole camera crew. So. they, you know, I went through some of. the footage, but I don't know that it's. that simple. I don't know that it's like. just a a I I don't know,

you know, who's ultimately wanting. certain things to be known and other. things not. Like clearly they want you. to know that UFOs are real. That has. been that is a clear message. They they. want you to know that. >> Yeah. Um, but I I I also know. that specifically the CIA. has been shaping the emerging UAP. narrative in their own words for many.

years. And I'll tell you how I know. that. Um, I was exposed to what I. believe to be correct information in. document form of um, an analysis done by. CIA on the Tik Tok incident. >> Okay. And. >> back then or recent announcement? >> Uh, this was years ago. >> So, oh, see, I was on it years ago. >> Well, I don't know. I I I know that what. what I was exposed to was was um a a few. years ago. >> Okay. But what they were trying to claim.

in that was that Fraver misidentified. his instrument systems, which which it negates the the entire. thing of it being filmed by Underwood, all the other witnesses. It was just. like this lowlevel trying to push. through the intelligence agencies a. dismissal, which I never really thought. about, but they do that a bunch. So like. when people come forward um and they. they talk publicly about UAP, there will. be internal classified memos that say.

none of these people can be trusted. Again, Arrow did that. Arrow did this. whole yearly report and at the end there. was this paragraph and this is like. multi-sourced. A bunch of people that. actually have access to these service. who've read the classified versions were. like, "Oh, that last paragraph." I'm. like, "What last paragraph?" And that I. finally I learned is that Arrow said, "Well, um, you know, nice that here's. our report and none of these people that. have come forward could ever be trusted. again because they broke the cardinal. rule." So, they're trying to tell the. rest of the intelligence community, you.

know, if you speak outside of school, cuz those are the people with access to. stuff. >> Yeah. >> You won't be trusted again. So with the. CIA, I know that they had um put some. reports into circulation. uh including the Loheed Martin. narrative. And that's why I wanted to. I'll tell you. >> that's interesting. >> Yeah. And they've actually come to. Fraver and he immediately saw the. nonsense and I I said, "Look, check out. this email." because I I had received. another email where they're trying to.

use um you know individuals to propagate. that mythology. >> and I know where it comes from because I. I I saw that um in some documentation. that I believe to be correct. I actually. um informed a federal agent in the DOJ, a friend of mine, hey, if you have. access, here's a document you should look for. Don't I'm not asking you for anything. This is for your knowledge. you know, and um.

so I have found that the CIA. absolutely has hands on this topic a lot. more than others, probably because of. their shell companies and how they can. help hide stuff. >> I know that they have stood up a. media platform. I saw it coming from. miles away. George and I have, you know, kind of talked about it. But if you have. a media platform that jumped into the. UFO thing and then they do not just UFOs.

but a bunch of science and technology. news, >> you want to name them. >> Uh I don't I I would rather people think. for themselves right at this point. Um, but you know, if if you've got somebody. who's like, I don't know, living in. another country like Germany or. something and they run like a, you know, a media online media thing and if you. look at the history of that media thing. and when it popped up and how it popped. up and there's some really good writers.

for it, by the way, not it's not all UFO. and there's some really great writers. for it, but that is a way to shape the. emerging UAP narrative. So if if if that. dude has ties to the CIA and maybe other. family members of his, if they have ties. to CIA, >> um you'd imagine that's a great way to. shape the narrative is have a trusted. publication that's online, can be. operated from out of the country, but. you get local writers who are into this. topic and good faith individuals. Um but. you can always see the story and and um.

that's happened a bunch. >> This is the same gay plan they've been. running since the 70s. Is this the same. story? >> Yeah, I guess with the. >> with with Dodie and Bill Moore and all. that, >> right? Right. And creating outlets that. you can shape stories with. I mean, yeah, it makes sense to me. Of course, social media is the the battleground. right now. >> Yeah. >> I mean, because you can you can get. like, you know, 50 people with like 19. followers, 40 followers. You can make. some disparaging comment over and over.

and then upvote. And they upvote. And I. know that's why I don't use social media. anymore cuz it's so um artificial. Or. mine is artificial now. >> So is mine. >> Is it? >> Oh. Oh yeah. >> Yeah. >> Oh yeah. My own Reddit. >> It's amazing. >> My own Reddit that I own just just blast. me constantly. >> They they get like, you know, they can. get a whole bunch of people um maybe. same person, different accounts, but. they can create a narrative, push it. through everything, and then upvote. those comments or something. Michael was. telling me about what he was he did an.

analysis myself. >> The top comment on my Reddit right this. week is that I'm an asset. >> Yeah. Mine's that I'm an asshole. So. they they might be right. Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't know. There's it's hard to. fight against, right? Like information. is the battlefield. And social media is. we spend so much time on it. So that's. why it doesn't hurt me when I read these. things where people, you know, say I'm, you know, holding this back or doing. this. No, dude. I'm doing my best job. I'm trying to make sure that that people. that come to me that they have a safe.

haven to come to me and that we do our. best reporting possible, me and George. And um if you look online, you know, you'll you'll see that that is a a great. way to influence public opinion with. very little effort. And I hope people. are smart. They think for themselves. >> Well, George is in his 70s. Mhm. >> Who's going to carry the baton once. you're gone? >> Michael. My buddy Michael. I I don't.

know. >> I mean, someone. >> Yeah. >> It's got to step up. >> Everybody, Here's what I'm encouraged. about. Um, we have so many great new. voices in the UFO field, right? And a. lot of people fighting now where before, 40 years ago, George is the only. journalist that would touches the 10-ft. pole. Um, but I I do see that Congress. is asking for more whistleblowers. Um, I. see David Gush making very profound. statements about biologics and reverse.

engineering. And I I I do trust David. Grush. I do trust him. I've known him. for a long time. Um, if if David Grush. was some asset, knowingly some asset, um, I'm not naive on that. >> I'm not there yet with him, but I trust. you. >> Right. So you know that that at to my. best assessment right now I have known. that guy for many years. >> and you vetted him for a full year I. think. >> Yes. >> Oh dude like Yeah. So there's a lot you. know to unpack with that but basically.

>> I don't see a cabal of people all. pushing forward into the media a. coherent cohesive agenda. There are. people they are being harmed for trying. to do this. It doesn't mean that both. aren't happening at the same time. I I. will relent to that. It's it's possible. the four-dimensional chess and I just. I'm not a chess playinger, >> you know what I mean? >> Meeting the checkers, as they say. [laughter] I'm just like, you know, I'm. doing my best here. But. >> I I hope that's not the case or if it is. the case, at least we're getting the.

right information. But what I am. encouraged about is that there are so. many new voices, people that are doing. really great work. Now, some of them, for fuck sure, are assets. And it is. gross. And I have actually made a public. statement that people should for the. right thing stand the fuck down on what. they're doing. But um the majority of. people are just curious like you and me. and they're young and they're hungry and. I think the I think the future is bright. for the UAP thing if we don't get caught.

up in the nonsense. And I think we're. our zone is flooded right now. Like I. don't know what you think about the. whole psionics thing, but like dude that. rireed of a government operation from. day one. >> SC up from day one. Agree. 100%. >> 100%. >> Yes. So that was really weird to watch. George and I just sat back. You notice. we never had anybody on. I've talked to. all of them. I know a lot of those guys. >> I just like from day one. What is the. angle on that? Why would they do you. know what that what would be the purpose. of that? >> It just muddy the waters, right? Is.

that's it? is just get us looking over. here. It's that's really all there is to. it, I think. Same with the age of. disclosure. There's there's a lot of. bullshit in there. There's people in. there that can't be trusted, but there's. also people in there that can be. >> I know, right? That's the rub, >> right? Why is James Clapper in there. >> and not in prison? I don't know. >> Why would he be in prison? >> I don't. >> I don't know a lot about politics. >> For lying to Congress that NSA was.

spying on Americans. >> Oh, he did? Right. >> Yeah. >> Those guys, look, I learned that lesson. >> I was so sure that what was being done. was illegal to whistleblowers and. apparently it's not. So, I just uh you. know, we had to let it go. >> I talked to a couple of very big. well-known podcasters and we would we. talk in different ways. Like if you call. certain people's cell phone, it takes a. long time to connect. It's very clicky. on the line. Oh, yeah. It's like we we.

got to go secure comms. We can't use our. phones. >> It's been it's been proven to me before. um that that I can be listened to. It. was like a a flex that was done to me by. an agency. >> I believe it. >> No, I'm telling you as fact that that. that's been proven to me and that it was. uh directly told to my mom by an agent. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And so. >> I mean it's so egregiously illegal. But Patriot Act actually makes it. >> I don't know.

>> because it's national security and. Patriot Act. >> All I know is that every time I get on. the phone with my lawyer, he goes, "This. is Chuck McCulla and this is a. privileged conversation." So why would. you have to say that if [laughter] you. didn't think, you know, that there's a a. chance? Um, >> but yeah, it's been shown to me on that. Yeah. And it's it's a huge it's not a. good way to live. And I'm kind of like. rethinking right now my life a lot about. um what. how can I be most effective and if I'm.

constantly living in the state where I. have to be so careful about having uh. conversations. like maybe. maybe adjustments need to be made for me. personally you know to to to be more. effective in my reporting. I don't know. yet. I don't know. I I just need you to be safe. >> I I feel safe, man. I I may Michael made. my life look like a horror movie and. [laughter]. his Sleeping Dog. Great movie. Is. fucking frightening and I break down.

twice. Um. >> it was a great movie. Is there anything. that we didn't get to that you want to. get to? >> No, man. I've never had such a um kind. of fun, different kind of conversation. It was really Thanks for the opportunity. to talk with you and your audience, >> dude. You're a legend. Thank you for. coming in. >> Thanks, man. Weaponize podcast. Awesome. >> Sleeping dogs. What else? >> Well, yes. Uh, Sleeping Dog is the movie. right now. Michael would want me to say. it's on Amazon and Apple. And you should. watch it. You should. Worst worst time.

of my life. Great entertainment for you, but I'm out of the woods. I'll just say. that. Like, >> how many beers do you drink in that. movie? Wow. >> I know. I like I [laughter] like, you. know, but I I made a point, right? I. didn't want to hide anything. Like, you. know, I I sip a few beers a day. >> I told him I said, "We got to get some. cores in here.". >> Yeah. Oh, so many. >> My friend Christina did that for her. podcast. It's the greatest ever. She. brought this like um but no, just that. man. Just you know, weaponized um the. movie Sleeping Dog. You know, I did make. the movie Patient 17, Hunt for the Skinw.

Walker, and Bazar Air51 of Flying. Saucers. All three of those you just. watch for free on YouTube movies now, which is pretty cool. >> Um but I I I think the main thing is. just with people is, you know, pay. attention to what's happening right now. We've never had so much movement. Now, I. don't know that all of it is good and. some of it might be a scop. I I'm I am. ignorant to some of that stuff. But I I. do believe that we are in an. unprecedented time where we are so close.

to getting some sort of admission and. then we're going to have to assess that. and maybe this scientific panel and. group maybe will do great things. I. don't want to prejudge it, but I've just. I've seen this movie before. I've had. this rodeo. if it's being run by OD and. unfortunately they got zero trust for me. now. There's some good people in OD and. that I know but the what's going on with. Congress feels like a manipulation with. OD and I I hope to be wrong but um yeah. in one year from now maybe we'll know a.

lot more than we do today and then we'll. come back and talk again. >> Jeremy Corbel. >> Thanks brother. >> Bye everybody. >> That was Jeremy Corbel handed our talk. with a bet [music] that a year from now. we'll know a lot more than we do. I. can't check a prediction. Everything. else I could start with the footage. The. pyramid [music] over the USS Russell, the sphere off San Diego. Jeremy. released those. And in 2021, the. Pentagon [music] confirmed they were. taken by the Navy and folded into the. government's UAP investigations. The. Pentagon, backing a [music].

self-described weirdo with a beard and. tattoos. I loved every part of that. Storm Area 51 checks out, too. A college. kid watched Jeremy and Bob Lazar and. Rogan made a Facebook joke and two. million people RSBP to raid a military. base. [music] I love every part of that. too, but I don't recommend it. Now the. big one. James Dasky ran the Pentagon's. [music] covert UFO program and he wrote. in a book with George Knap that America. holds a craft of unknown origin and. [music] then we got inside it. The. government's own publication review. cleared every word. That doesn't prove a.

craft, but nobody's walked it back and. we keep waiting. The enttrapment. invitations, the whisper [music]. campaigns, the safety protocols for his. family. I can't verify. He says it's. recorded sitting with his lawyer. We. have to take his word for it. [music]. Everything I could check. But the scene. that stuck with me is the tennis court. Jeremy filmed John Leer for almost a. decade. Near the end, [music] Lear. believed the man he called Sleeper had. come to Earth on a craft and could write. him a ticket off the prison planet. Jeremy flew him in, wheeled him onto the. overgrown court, and [music] filmed Lear.

crying, asking if his ticket was still. good. Jeremy calls it UFO disease. No. answers, so you fill the hole with. whatever hurts least. [music] He won't. fill his. So, is the biggest story in. human history being suppressed? I can't. tell you. [music] And neither can. Jeremy. That's what I like most about. him. He fixes toilets in his own. buildings so nobody [music] can buy his. reporting. And he spent 15 years saying, "I don't know." Or certainty pays. better. That's the guy I want holding a. flashlight. Jeremy [music] and George. Nas podcast is weaponized. The. documentary is Sleeping Dog. That's Dog.

Singular on Amazon and Apple [music] and. his films are free on YouTube movies. His site is extraordinary beliefs.com. and everything I [music] mentioned is. linked below. If his grandma's story got. to you, check out my Battle of Los. Angeles episode. Until next time, be. safe, be kind, and know that you are. appreciated. [bell]. [music]. Oh. Oh yeah,

[music]. I played Bolivia in Area 51. A secret. code inside the Bible [music] said I. would. I love my UFOs and paranormal fun as. well as music [music] songs hanging like. I should. But then another conspiracy theory. [music] becomes the truth, my friends. And it never ends. No, it never ends.

[music]. I feel the crap. I got stuck inside M's. home with [music] MK truck. I feel only. aware. Did [music] Stanley Cubrick fake the. moon landing alone on a film set? I. would [music] shadow people there. The Rwelling just fought the smiling.

man. I'm told [music]. and his name was cold. I [singing] can't. I'm dancing with the fish. [music] on Thursday night. and. all through the night. [music]. through the A.

[music]. [music]. man [music] sings and the solar storm. still come to gather this young city. [music] underground. Mysterious number stations, planet. [music]. two, project star gave and what the dark.

watchers found [music]. in a simulation. Don't you worry though. the black night. Oh, I can't [music] believe I'm dancing. with the fish. on Thursday. That's when they change and. [music] all through the night. All. [music] the truth.

all through the night. [music] That's when they change you. My. life. [music].

[music]. Your girl loves to dance [music] on the. dance floor because she is a camel. Camel loves to dance [music] when the. feeling is well. time. [music].

[music].