The Basement: Jeffrey Mishlove | Your Brain Doesn't Create Consciousness. It Filters It

Today we're sitting down with Jeffrey. Mishlove. On Christmas Eve 1985, Jeffrey. got a phone call from a man named Ted. Owens. Owens was a former assistant to. J.B. Rhine at Duke University. He. claimed to control the weather and. summon UFOs on command. >> He summoned UFOs on command, huh? Must. be nice. I'm still waiting for an Uber. eats I ordered last Tuesday. >> He told Jeffrey to call the US. government and warn them not to send up. the next space shuttle. His UFOs were. going to bring it down.

>> [music]. >> And a month later, Challenger exploded. Now that's the kind of story you're. going to hear today. And Jeffrey spent. 50 years as the most important. interviewer in parapsychology. UC Berkeley gave him the only PhD in. parapsychology ever awarded by an. accredited American university. In 2021, he won first prize and $500,000. from the Bigelow Institute for the. [music] best scientific case that. consciousness survives death. >> Yeah, Camilla. He's going to find out. the IRS also survives death.

TAXES ARE A DEATH. >> This one got emotional. Let's go down to. the basement. >> [music]. >> Jeffrey, welcome to the basement. >> Thank you. >> I'm excited to have you here. >> It's a pleasure to be here. >> It's weird for me because. there's so much research goes into my. episodes on my stupid show. And you constantly come up as as a. primary source. So, thank you for your.

contributions. Um, this this is it's like sitting in. front of a cycle the encyclopedia. I. don't even know where to start. Um, >> Well, let me just say it's very. gratifying to me to know that I'm having. that kind of an impact. >> Did you not realize that? >> No. >> Oh my goodness. >> I did not. >> When I told my audience you were coming. in, they're blown away by it. No, you're. It's weird to be a living legend and not. know it, I guess. >> Well, I know that there's a reputation, but I I think you've built up a.

fabulous business here with a huge. audience, and I had no idea that you. even knew I existed. >> Oh, of course I did. Um. My show is. I don't want to say silly and dismiss it. because the topics are important. >> [clears throat]. >> But your work is actually important. You. know, I'm trying to entertain people. >> Yeah. >> Your Your work is really important in. educating people. >> Yeah. >> But I I want to get to the bottom of.

some of that stuff. So, before we get too deep, I want to know. your favorite, not the most famous, not. the most well-reviewed, your favorite. character that your mother ever played. on stage. >> Blanche DuBois. >> Streetcar? >> Yeah. >> Oh my goodness. >> Yeah. But it changed her life. completely. She My mother was an actress in local. community theater, and and good. I. imagine she could have had a career on.

Broadway if she hadn't married my father. and moved from the East Coast to. Wisconsin. So, she was very active in. local community theater, and. Blanche DuBois, the female character in. Streetcar Named Desire, possessed her. It was as if. she was a different person. after that. She became Blanche DuBois. I. have always depended on the kindness. [laughter]. of strangers. >> That's right. Was she like that with all.

of her roles? Would she just inhabit. that character? Or. >> That particular character. It's as if the spirit of Blanche DuBois. entered into my mother. >> What do you think that is? Cuz that's. There's kind of a a darkness to that to. that story a little bit. >> Well, you could say that, but it. probably reveals a lot about the the. human psyche in. There we're so much larger than we think. we are and we're so much more. interconnected than than we think we are.

and I think our consciousness just. bubbles up with possibilities. and Blanche DuBois was in my mother all. along. It just sort of bubbled up. >> Right. I hadn't considered that, that. we're all connected, that that's that. could be a way that. that actors, good actors are channeling. characters is our connection. >> I I think there is an element of. channeling that goes into theater, yeah. >> So, Dad was in the army, Mom was an. actress. What was life like for little. Jeffrey? Did you travel around?

>> Well, no. My father was out of the army. by the time I was born in 1946. The war. was over. My dad had come home. I was. part of the baby boom. generation right after the war and. I grew up in the 1950s. and it was sort of like Norman. Rockwell's America. Everything seemed good and. healthy and normal and for example, in.

that era you didn't ever see a man. wearing a beard. All the men were. clean-shaven everywhere. If someone had. a beard, you'd say, "Oh, that's from the. last century." And. and all the boys, young boys had crew. cuts. So, uh. >> No weird hats? >> No, none of none of that. No no drugs. I. never heard of marijuana or cannabis. until I was in college. It was it was a.

a time of absolute innocence and I grew. up in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, which. later became. designated as the safest city in. America. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> What I. People who grew up during that time, like my parents, all say the same thing, Norman Rockwell. Do you think it was really like that. everywhere? >> No. >> So, what what cuz there I feel like. there was an undercurrent during the. '50s that that wasn't quite so public?

>> Well, if for example, in Fond du Lac, where I grew up, a town of 30,000. people, I think um there were no black families. at all. It was all white, 100%. And uh. maybe occasionally there after I left, there might be one or two. black families coming into town. Um. So, I I didn't even know black people. existed. >> Right. >> until I went to see watch the Milwaukee.

Braves play in. >> [laughter]. >> Well, I'm glad you said that because. it really wasn't Norman Rockwell for. everybody. >> No. >> But, that's but that's the history that. I think we like to remember. >> It It what Fond du Lac was completely a. Norman Rockwell kind of town. >> So, going into sociology Everyone knows. you as the parapsychology guy, but. >> Yeah. >> So, sociology and then criminology. >> That's right. >> What attracted you to criminology?

>> Well, the truth is I wanted to get. admitted to Berkeley. I. >> Just Berkeley? Didn't matter why? >> I Soon as I graduated from. college in Madison, Wisconsin with a BA. in psychology, I got a job in Rockford, Illinois at a mental health program, the. Singer Mental Health Zone Center, which. prided itself on being 10 years ahead of. the times, which for me wasn't enough. I quit after 6 weeks and got in my car.

and made a beeline to San Francisco. >> Why did you What was going on at the. mental health facility that made you. quit so quickly? >> Behaviorism. >> Behaviorism from from the from the. doctors. >> That was that was the philosophy of the. time. The behaviorist model of human. behavior and and psychology was. dominated by B.F. Skinner and. behaviorism and they had for example a a. big computer in the basement of this. facility and every time I interacted.

with a patient, I had to fill out a. computer form and they were going to. keep track of it and I thought to myself. they're they're missing everything here. Um for example, when I was with some of the patients, I did some simple experiments I'd read. about the Esalen Institute and a guy. named Bernie Gunther who talked about. awakening the senses and I had people. like I just say, "Tap your head, you.

know, use your fingers, experience the. feeling of of what it's like to have. and there was a woman who hadn't spoken. in 20 years and started talking. after that and I realized that. uh the facility where I was had no. concept of human depth. >> Did the other. professionals there think you were. strange cuz you mentioned tapping, that's a real thing now. >> Yeah. >> Did they think, "Like why is this guy.

making them hit themselves on the head? What is he do Were they. >> I I don't think I fit in there very. well. I for whatever reason I I was. destined to. do something different with my life. >> I think we're going to see that as a. thread is when you land into. an institution, it doesn't work for you. I think we're going to see that. >> it it's really true. In fact, every time. I was at a university, University of Wisconsin or even Berkeley. which was much more attuned with my way.

of thinking, my favorite professors. would get fired or would leave. >> Just cuz they were just too outside the. mainstream? >> And and. I give you another example. >> Okay. >> I after years of struggle, as you. mentioned, I achieved a a doctoral. degree, a unique individual. interdisciplinary doctoral degree in. parapsychology, the only one ever. awarded to this day, 40 years later.

>> And what's the quick definition of. parapsychology? >> Para- parapsychology is the scientific. study of extrasensory perception and. psychokinesis and the possibility of. human survival after death. >> Mainstream doesn't like this. >> No. And but the point is that I want to make. just in. the context of this conversation, I got the degree and I went to see my. mentor at the time. I was so proud.

Uh I my committee had just finalized. everything. So, I went to visit Arthur. Young. Uh. who who was a 70-year-old man at the. time or in his 70s. >> The Arthur Bell helicopter Arthur? >> Yes. >> Was your mentor? >> Yes. >> Okay. This This is going to get. interesting. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Arthur was an amazing guy and and he I. have a talk about him up forever. He pulled out an astrology ephemeris and. started looking at my chart and he said.

to me, uh. "How long did you work on this degree?". And I said, "It's been about 6 years, little over 6 years since I entered the. doctoral program that I created for. myself in parapsychology." And he looked. at me and he said, "Well, it's going to. take you 6 years more to undo all the. damage the university has done to you.". >> Wow. So, he saw that in you.

>> Not just me. It's. >> Well, how do you create a PhD? >> Yeah. >> Because it's a it's accredited and you. had to fight for that, didn't you? >> Well, there was a program at Berkeley. whereby if you're already a graduate. student in good standing, you want to do. a dissertation. on a topic where. uh you're you can't find three. professors in your department who will. sponsor you, but you can find three. professors in a variety of different. departments who will sponsor you, you.

can create your own program and I took. advantage of that very obscure rule. After I graduated from Berkeley, they. canceled the whole thing. >> The Oh, you can't do that anymore? >> Uh they just reinstated it a few years. ago. >> Okay. >> Finally. >> What was your dissertation about? >> Training uh ESP abilities. >> Wow, and so you got sponsors for that. >> Faculty. >> Faculty sponsored you? >> Yes.

>> That's amazing. And. I think it's interesting that there was. there was. Didn't they try to take that away from. you and you fought? >> Well, there were organized skeptics, there still are. >> Oh, yes. >> Organized skeptics who were offended by. the the very idea that a. major school, Berkeley's one of the best. in the world, would uh grant a degree in. parapsychology. This horrified them. because they see it as the rising tide.

of superstition and. and um so they put pressure on the. university to. cancel the degree after it had already. been awarded and and the pressure was. quite significant. They yeah, university tried to do that. I had to. um [snorts]. I had to pull some strings. Uh fortunately, I had, you know, some. support from people who believed in what. I was doing and.

those. people failed in in their effort to get. the university to undo my degree, but it. put me through hell at the time. >> and your doctorate stands. >> Yeah. >> So, um. criminology. >> Yeah. >> Take us back to What attracts you to. criminals? You go from mental health. >> Yeah. >> now criminals. I mean, are we talking. serious. >> I say, I moved to Berk-. California to the Bay Area and.

I wanted to. enroll at Berkeley and I had studied. when I was at Wisconsin with Seymour. Halleck, who was a psychiatrist. and is who specialized in criminology. So, and I knew, frankly, that um. I could get in to criminology. Um there were openings in the School of. Criminology at Berkeley. Psychology, they accepted, I think, 20 students. every year and they had like thousands.

of applicants and. uh even though I had a good grade point. and so on, it was I didn't know that I. would get admitted, but I knew I could. be admitted in criminology. So, I went. for that because. they had a psychology track. I was. interested in clinical work and I could. do that in the School of Criminology and. so. if you had known me in 1972, for example, you would have seen me.

doing volunteer work at San Quentin. Prison in the psychiatric unit. conducting group therapy sessions with. murderers and rapists. >> What were they like as people? >> You know, that's the interesting thing. I thought they were pretty much just. like you and me. >> That's very interesting. >> Yeah. >> That That makes me think that everyone. maybe has a certain trigger or there's. something in everybody. >> We We all have. a little larceny in our hearts.

>> Yes, we do. >> You You might say it's part I cuz I'm. pretty convinced, you know, that the. whole human population shares a a. collective consciousness. >> I agree. I agree. >> There's There's nothing that any. criminal has ever done that. hasn't affected me and isn't in some way. part of me. >> Sure. >> But I can tell you that the staff in the. prison didn't see it that way. >> I bet not. Did you also have a. a unique approach to therapy with when.

you were speaking with the. >> Well, I was a young kid at the time. I I. can't say I was experienced, although I. will tell you that young inexperienced. college students are very good. therapists. >> I bet they are. because you're not you're not so. hardwired yet. You're still kind of. exploring new things. >> You're willing to listen. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Did. Did you make a difference in any of. those people's lives? Those criminals? >> I can't say for sure. I I None of them.

I didn't do any follow-up with them and. so I don't know. >> Did you feel like. >> I think they made a difference in my. life. >> That's interesting. What did they. contribute to that? >> They contributed a a sense of humanity, of understanding what it meant to be. human, what. something about myself ultimately. >> Did that surprise you?

>> It felt natural. It did I can't say it. surprised me. >> Cuz a lot of people would be frightened. to be in that situation with those. people. >> Mhm. >> But. you feel like that experience enriched. your life in a way. >> I. Yeah, I I would say the guards were more. frightening than the inmates. >> Okay, fair enough. They probably weren't as empathetic as. you were. >> And and you would you know, they were. always hovering around to make sure I. was safe.

>> Sure. >> But but they they kept a sort of a. menacing demeanor um on their. if you look at them, they would be. they'd be scowling. And uh. I don't perhaps things have changed. since then, but the general attitude was. that these inmates aren't quite human. >> So, those guards didn't feel like we. shared a consciousness at all or. anything with these people. >> Not only the guards, but you know, my. supervisors in the psychiatric unit were.

they would you'd hear expressions like. they're a different kind of cat. They're just not like us. >> That's um. that's a casual way of dehumanizing. somebody. >> Yeah. >> That really is. >> Yeah. >> Is that what made you leave criminology? >> No. No, [clears throat] I would have stuck. it out, but for the fact that I had the. most powerful. uh. mystical psychic paranormal event of my. life.

at at that time. >> Did you Were you a believer in. parapsychology? >> Yes. >> You are. >> Uh from. from as an undergraduate even, I I was I. did a senior honors thesis the. University of Wisconsin as an. undergraduate on the psychology of. religious mysticism, and I went into it, to be honest, as a skeptic. I thought. these people who claim to be religious.

mystics, whatever that is, it's undoubtedly a form of. psychopathology, and I'm going to that's what I'll write. about. That'll I'll talk about the. psychopathologies that make people. believe they're having psychic and. mystical experiences. And I started. digging into the literature, and the. more I dug into the literature, the more. I became convinced. that uh. it was just the opposite, that these. people were some of the most creative,

successful. uh people on the planet. And uh at that. point I. I would and I became aware of the. research of J.B. Rhine and. parapsychology and the uh studies of. life after death going back to the. 1880s. And so. and at the same time in my senior year. as an undergraduate, I was exposed to. LSD and uh.

the whole. psychedelic scene that was uh burgeoning. at at that time on college campuses. And. it all fit together. for me very naturally that um. LSD was a tool for. uh exploring your own mind and and that. this these mystical experiences were. quite real. Um. and you could have a taste of it, you. know, from from drugs. But but then.

in 1972, I had a full-blown. experience. >> Before we get to that. >> Yeah. >> academia seems very comfortable with. religious studies but uncomfortable with. parapsychology, but there seems to be a. lot of overlap in those fields. >> There There is an enormous overlap uh. with with it also with what is now. called transpersonal psychology, which. pretty much didn't exist back when I was. uh studying as an undergraduate, but.

most scholars in the field of religious. studies, I'm told, are are really. atheists and skeptics. >> Really? >> Yeah. There There are a handful who who. take it seriously and I got to know. Huston Smith very well, the author of. The World's Religions, who was deeply. involved in the mystical core of all. religions, but for the most part the. scholars of of religion were.

and I think even today were under the. influence of what was in those days. called, you know, Marxist materialism. Later on. became known as deconstructionism. and postmodernism. But but they were they saw religions. basically as. power trips, as a way to manipulate. people and to control society. >> That is an interesting take that I. hadn't considered. >> Yeah.

>> But. religion is a tool to do that. >> Yes, it is. >> It is. I would never to dismiss any religious. people, but it certainly has that. >> There's that side of it. >> There certainly is. >> Yeah. >> So, your experience your your was your. first paranormal experience was. life-changing. >> I don't know if it was my first. paranormal experience, but it was. life-changing. There's no question. >> So, this is the dream. >> It's a dream. >> Did you but you had a an experience. before the dream possibly?

>> Well, I was doing ESP experiments and things. like that. >> Where? >> It is an undergraduate at in Wisconsin. in my in my experimental psychology. class. >> [laughter]. >> As a matter of fact. >> On what? On on other on like undergrads. coming. >> Well, it was informal. It you know, I'd. take a deck of playing cards and hold it. up and I'd have my girlfriend try to. guess what the cards were and Uh,

you know, the results were interesting, but. >> You Did they base Dr. Peter Venkman in. Ghostbusters on you? >> [laughter]. >> When you saw that, you must have been. like Right. >> Right. >> Well, when I first saw Ghostbusters, [laughter] I did think, "My goodness, they made the movie about me.". >> Right. That's what it seems like with. the cards. They all have They were all. doctors. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, that was a funny movie when it. first came out. It was hilarious. >> So, the dream. Tell me about the day leading up to the.

dream. What was going on in your life. that because when people have these. experiences, often they're primed for it. and maybe don't realize until after the. fact. >> well, yes, I was primed for it. I In. fact, as an undergraduate, I. in what they called the free university. at Wisconsin, I offered a course on. religious mysticism. I was teaching it. as an undergraduate, but by the time I. was a graduate student in criminology, I. was kind of put all that behind me.

And and I can't say that I was primed at. all. At that moment, I didn't know. Um, but. 2,000 mi away, I'm. in Berkeley, California, waking up uh, from the most powerful dream of my life. It's 7:30 in the morning. In Wisconsin, at 9:30 in the morning, my. great uncle Harry, who was about 85. years old, had died at that moment. And.

as best I can piece it together, he came to me. He visited me and took me. along partway for the ride. >> What was the dream about? Take us. through that. >> well, >> cuz this is not an unique story. >> I cannot put it into words very well. It's beyond description. It's what they. say it's ineffable. The classic mystical. experiences. What I can tell you. is that. Uncle Harry came to me in the dream and.

we had a deep conversation. Um. he disagreed with some of the ways I was. living my life. >> What was some of the dialogue in that. dream with Harry? >> Dialogue, well, the dialogue in. retrospect is trivial. Uh. the dialogue was. he's telling me that uh you you treat. your girlfriends like they're your. equal. >> [laughter]. >> What was Harry like that in real life?

>> Well, I all I can say is he had four. wives. >> Okay. [laughter]. >> And not at the same time. Uh he wasn't a Mormon. Uh he he he um. and I don't think he treated women as an. equal. He was a very religious man, highly Orthodox. Jew, the president of the local Orthodox. Jewish congregation in Sheboygan, Wisconsin. And. so that was part of it. And I'm saying.

no, women are equal and I we discussed. the yin-yang symbol, which has become my. logo, and. >> Comes out of that dream. >> Yes, in part. >> Okay. >> And. and but the thing is. when I awoke from that dream, I was. sobbing tears of joy. >> Of joy? >> Of joy. >> Did you know he had died? >> No. I had no idea he had died. >> What was so joyous about that message? >> Not only was I.

it I can't put it into words. It's as if. he took me into heaven. >> That's what it was. >> And. also I was singing. >> You woke up singing? >> I woke up singing and crying and the. song I was singing. for any of your viewers who were Jewish. uh Avinu Malkeinu, which is a song that. is only sung in the Jewish liturgy in.

the what we call the high holy holidays. and at some of the most poignant. spiritual moments of the religious. service. And. they sing Avinu Malkeinu. Our father, our king. It's a prayer to God. to. forgive us. >> I was going to ask you about that, what. that song is about and when it's sung. >> Yeah. >> It's about forgiveness? >> It's about forgiveness. It's about. asking God to. forgive us for our sins.

>> Why that song do you think? >> I don't know. >> When you woke up, you don't know why you. were singing that song? >> No. I don't. But it was like coming out of my heart. And I'd been so deeply touched. And. I didn't know that Uncle Harry had died. I didn't know where I had been. I didn't. know why I woke up from a dream singing. and crying like that. But. I can never forget the experience. And.

even though I can't put it into words. and make it intelligible, it was at that. moment. that I realized or shortly thereafter as. I'm digesting all of this that. I can no longer pursue a career studying. the negative side of human deviance. That I had to move away from. psychopathology and crime and and start. focusing on the positive side of human.

deviance. >> It's interesting that you were working. with criminals and woke up singing about. forgiveness. >> Yeah. >> That's that's very interesting to me. Who was your first phone call? >> Well, I wrote home immediately to my. parents and and said, "How's Uncle. Harry? I had a dream about him.". And my mother called as soon as she got. the letter and said, "How did you know?". And Uncle Harry had just died. And so I.

I said, "Well, I didn't know." And. could they. arrange for me to have an object that. Uncle Harry owned, so I can. keep it. And to remember him by, they sent me a. book. A little book. And they told me, "This is Uncle Harry's favorite book.". >> What was it? >> It was It took me a while to figure it. out because it was he written in Hebrew. >> Okay. >> Uh and I later learned actually it was.

in Yiddish, which is a German Jewish. slang language. >> I'm from New York City. I know you. I I. know what it is. >> So Yiddish. I had to get it translated and and it's. the Tales of the Baal Shem Tov, who was. a mystical teacher of the Jewish Hasidic. sect going back to the 18th century. >> Did your mother know you were into. mysticism? That she chose that book?

>> Um. >> This is a lot of synchronicities. >> I had no idea that my Uncle Harry was. into mysticism or that anybody in that I. knew, any Jewish person, had anything to. do with mysticism because in that era. Jewish people. wanted to fit in. They wanted to be like. considered normal Americans, not some. kind of weird cult-like people. Now they. don't mind so much, [laughter] but. >> Again, that's very strange to hear.

because I'm from New York. So Jewish is. very much part of our local culture and. and my family. So it's very part of our. culture. It's always strange to hear. like. friends talk about I never met a Jewish. person until I was 30 years old. It's a. strange to me. >> Yeah. >> It's a very different country. >> Yeah. >> So, you decided. after the dream you had to make a change. or after the book? >> After the dream. Well, it around that. time it all happened, you know, within a. few weeks and. it took me.

months to figure out how to make this. shift because I assumed, well, I could. shift into a graduate program on. creativity or intuition or mysticism, but they didn't exist. So, I I agonized about it for many, many. months. >> Still working at in criminology? >> Yes. >> You had to be completely distracted by. then, no? >> I suppose. I suppose I was, but I was,

you know, still showing up at the. psychiatric unit [laughter] in San. Quentin prison and and taking my courses. and and doing well. I got a master's. degree in criminology and. uh eventually. what happened was. kind of interesting. I. agony and agony and agony. I was a. stressed out unhappy person after that. beautiful mystical experience because I. knew I had to change my life and I think.

that happens a lot for people who have. near-death experiences and. what I had today we we would call a a. shared death experience. >> Yes, we would. I just did a an episode. on that. It's a very real phenomenon. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and you had a remote shared death. experience, which. >> Yeah. >> I believe is the most common kind. 60%. of people have those experiences are are. far, far away from that person. >> Because it was you could also call it a. visitation. Uncle Harry came to me. I.

didn't go to him. I didn't know he was. dying. >> No, but he knew that you needed him. Did. he visit anyone else? I'm touched by this story. Did he. Did he visit anyone else? >> Uh. you know, I think so. I I'm pretty sure. there were there were some cousins who. had some experiences along those lines. >> I wonder if he was telling everyone to. make some changes. Is that how Harry Harry was a. opinionated? >> No, I don't remember him that way. I.

Here's what I remember about Uncle Harry. is he He ran a corner grocery store in. Sheboygan, Wisconsin. And what I'd be a. young kid, 8 9 10 years old, and. my father was very fond of him, and we'd. often visit. And. when we came to visit him, he'd He lived. in an apartment behind uh the grocery. store. He'd go into the freezer at where. they had Eskimo Pies, >> [laughter]. >> and he'd pull out Eskimo Pies and hand.

them to all the kids. And I thought to. myself, "Look, he's got a whole freezer. full of. >> [laughter]. >> Eskimo Pies." To to a young child, that's wealth. >> Yes. >> And so. I told this story once to a rabbi I was. friendly with, Zalman Schachter, a. mystical rabbi. And he said to me, "Well, your Uncle Harry had one more. Eskimo Pie for you.". >> Oh, that's lovely. >> Yeah. >> He did.

That sounds like it would must have been. very difficult those months. >> They were. They they were very. difficult, but one morning. I woke up, and I knew, beyond a doubt, that. I was going to have a dream that. evening, and the answer to. this whole search of how to reorient my. life was going to come in a dream. >> So, everything is chaotic then, and then.

>> Yeah. >> And you felt like tonight is the night I. >> Tonight is the night, the dream is going. to come and the answer will be there. >> And. >> It was just a knowing. >> And it happened. >> And it happened. >> What was that dream about? >> In that dream. I was visiting. >> I didn't expect to cry this soon, Jeffrey, but that's it's a good story. >> I had good friends in Berkeley who I. used to live with, who were in married. student housing at the time. And in the. dream, I was visiting Peter and Marcy.

Hartman. uh in married student housing. I knocked. on the door. of their apartment. and there was no answer. And in the dream, I found a key, let. myself into their apartment, walked into. the living room, and found in the middle. of the living room floor a magazine. called I, E Y E. I picked up the. magazine. and paging through it.

and then I woke up with this feeling of. exhilaration, like I have the answer. >> What was in the magazine? >> Well, I didn't know. >> You didn't know? >> [laughter]. >> So I acted out the dream. I figured I've. got to find that magazine. >> Yeah. >> So I put on my tennis shoes. ran across town 5 miles from where I. live to. as married student housing in Albany, California and knocked on the door of.

the apartment. >> What are you thinking during that run? Is it elation? Is it relief? Or are you. still. >> elation. >> It it was. You You knew. >> I just knew I'm going to find the. answer. I have to go to this apartment. And. they weren't home as I had dreamt. It. turned out I did know exactly where they. hid a key. They were good friends. So I. took it and I let myself into their. apartment, walked into the living room,

and smack-dab in the middle of the. living room floor, exactly as I had. dreamt, there was this magazine sitting, sprawled, you know, pages open. >> I magazine. >> It was. called Focus. >> Oh. >> And Focus was the magazine of KQED, which was listener-sponsored radio and. television in the San Francisco Bay. Area. And as I'm paging through this. magazine,

it dawned on me for the first time in my. life, I could pursue my interests by. getting involved in the nonprofit. segment of the media. >> When you got into that apartment, did. you know that magazine was going to be. there? Were. >> No. >> You weren't confident? You You weren't. Cuz everything was lining up. You. >> Well, everything was lining up, but I. hadn't. I had no way of knowing. >> Well, then when you saw it, you had to. go, "Oh my goodness.". >> Yeah. >> So, you have to follow where this leads.

>> Yeah. >> Okay, so the magazine Focus is there. It's. >> It brought Focus into my life. >> all very clear. >> But because I lived in Berkeley, I. didn't have a car in those days, I don't. think. Uh. No, I did not have a car. I went to KPFA, which is a Pacifica. radio station in Berkeley. Actually, a very well-known. nonprofit radio. And at the time, I had.

my master's degree, and I said to them, "I'd like to volunteer.". And they said, "Sure. Sit at this desk, and when you hear the. doorbell ring, push this button and let. people in the front door." That's how it. all That's how it [laughter] started. And I was glad to do it. >> Yes, because I mean, you're if this is a. mission now. You're on a mission. >> Yeah. >> So, within two, three weeks I had learned. how to produce a radio program and I.

produced my first program, which was. um. interviewing local friends of mine in. Berkeley who who were psychic. And I And the theme was you don't have. to be from out of town to be psychic. >> How did they Did they. let you create your own show? >> Yeah. They They let me. They showed me how and. they broadcast it and after it was. released, the program director came to. me and said um.

I was only at the station for three. weeks and he said, "You We have an. opening every Tuesday and Thursday at. noon uh for a program, a regular. program. We call it the Minds Ear and. it's an interview program and you'll sit. just as you and I are now across the. table from each other with world-class. experts in all the topics that. interested me the most.". >> How long from that. dream of the magazine to that show? How. much time passes?

>> Maybe six weeks at the most. >> Six weeks? >> Yeah. Well, let me think. The dream of the. magazine. No, well, maybe even three weeks. Uh somewhere just a few weeks. >> You must be just coasting now on this. feeling of I This is meant to be. Because you're just. I come from radio. >> Yeah. >> I didn't get my own show in three weeks. >> No. >> [laughter]. >> It took a little longer than that. >> Well, of course, KPFA was staffed by all. volunteers. So, there I was a volunteer.

who seemed to know something. about psychology. I was a kid. I was 25. years old at the time and. uh. that gave me the confidence to go back. to the university where they offered no. courses. or programs in the topics that I was. interested in, but I did come to meet. some professors who were supportive. And I said I wanted. you know, create this.

interdisciplinary program, would you. sponsor it and and be on my academic. committee and. I already had access to people like. Robert Monroe and who was writing his. first book on out-of-body experiences. and you know, everyone on a book tour. coming through the San Francisco Bay. Area would want to stop at KPFA. >> What year is that? >> 1972. >> So Robert Mon- I mean, there's a lot of. great characters coming through San.

Francisco Bay Area during that time. >> The 1970s. in San Francisco Bay Area, I think of it. as the psychic 70s. It was an amazing time. >> So Robert Monroe, I've covered him quite. a bit. Hemi-Sync and what Was he able to. achieve achieve out-of-body on command. using Hemi-Sync? I can't say that for sure. Um. I did go through the program. I didn't. have an out-of-body experience myself. I.

didn't either. What about the um the. Gateway Project at Monroe Institute? Did. That was I think one of his last. projects. >> Yes. Well, I I certainly know Monroe. trainers and and people who have been. through the program and I I think it's. fair to say that a significant. percentage of people found it worked. very well for them. >> So Monroe trainers is an interesting. segue because quite a few of those. Monroe trainers come from SRI and. Project Stargate.

Was happening about the same time. Yes, it's as. >> Yeah, the. after Stargate closed down. >> Right, I'm talking like Skip Atwater. went over to Monroe. Um, but. SRI and 72 weren't Targ and Puthoff? >> Yes. >> Jacques Vallee was there? >> Yes. >> Did you spend any time with them? >> Yes. Oh, sure. >> We Well, what what [laughter] what No. one's been on the inside except we hear. from No, we hear from Targ and Puthoff. all the time, but.

I haven't heard you talk much about what. was going on at SRI. What was going on. behind the. >> Well, let me let me step back a a little bit. Um, when even as a criminology student, there were graduate students that I. knew, friends of mine, who were all. interested in consciousness, and we. would meet. And at the same time, people like. Jacques Vallee and Stanton Friedman were. occasionally coming on campus and.

lecturing on UFOs. And once I got. started at KPFA, I was. sponsoring big symposiums of on these. topics as well, taking advantage of uh, the access that was available to me as a. graduate student. I could, for example, reserve Zellerbach Auditorium that held. 2,000 people, and we brought Uri Geller. onto campus and and the like. And one of.

the visiting. speakers was Arthur Young, the inventor of the Bell helicopter. >> Is that how you met him through there? >> Yeah, we'd have a small seminar, and you. know, there would be 30 graduate. students, and Arthur Young would come. and talk about his cosmologies and his. theories, and he was actually funding. some of the research at SRI at at the. time, and. he decided to set up a branch of his. Institute for the Study of Consciousness.

in Berkeley. He bought a house, 2924. Benvenue Avenue in Berkeley, and he had. an apartment in the back of this large. house and he invited me to move in. >> Could you give everyone just a back of. the baseball card. biography of Arthur Young because it's. very interesting. >> He invented the Bell helicopter which. was the first commercially licensed. helicopter in the United States. We. think of it as the Whirlybird, the.

little helicopter with the glass bubble. dome and the skids. And it was used for. example in. Korea. What was that movie? MASH? >> Sure. >> To do all the evacuations. It was I remember as a young child 4. years old seeing a helicopter and people. would point, "Look at that.". No nobody had ever seen such a thing. before. It was in 1947 it was invented. >> That's right. And.

I do you have to correct me but he. did he wasn't like an aviation nut, right? He just saw a problem to solve. >> It was Here here's the story. He went to. Princeton. He studied general relativity. in the 1920s at Princeton University as. an undergraduate. >> That's an interesting time to be there. >> Yeah. And and he. >> So Einstein's around at that time, right? At the Institute. >> for Advanced Studies, yeah. He he became. familiar with Einstein's work as an.

undergraduate in the the 1920s at at a. time when very few people understood. Einstein at all. >> Right. >> And he decided he was influenced I think. by. Alfred North Whitehead amongst others. who had what he called process. philosophy. He believed he saw that what. was going on wasn't about things, it was. about process. And he wanted to develop. his own process philosophy.

But he said to himself, "Look what's. going on in the world. It's all about. technology, and philosophers. seem to have missed the boat. They don't. understand technology. They don't talk. about technology." He said. to himself, "In order to be worthy of doing real. philosophy, of being a real process. philosopher, I have to prove to myself that I can. master a technological problem." So, he.

went to the patent office in Washington, D.C. in 1926. to find an unsolved technical problem. that he could solve. [laughter]. >> What do you got? Just What do you got? >> And and he learned that there had been, I don't know, something like 30. attempts, unsuccessful, to develop a vehicle that could hover in. midair. >> They were trying to do it since Da Vinci. made that sketch, and they couldn't. figure it out. >> Right. And and so, he set himself to.

solve that problem. In 1926, he his father was a landscape painter, pretty well-known, and he owned a farm. in. Pennsylvania with a big barn, and he. used the barn as his laboratory, and he. began building toy models, and it took. him. decades. He worked for years and years. on problems on solutions that didn't. work, like propellers at the ends of the.

rotor blades and things like that. But, by. the 1940s, uh. he had he had a toy model, something you. could maybe 2 ft wide, and and it would. hover in midair. He he had solved the. problem, and he took it to the Bell Aircraft. Company, and he said, "Look what I got. >> [laughter]. >> We can make big ones.". >> We can make big ones. >> And and they said, "Okay. >> [laughter]. >> Let's let's do it." And and the 19 model.

47 was the very first helicopter that. the government licensed for commercial. purposes. >> That's right. I think Operation Highjump. down in Antarctica was the first time. they were deployed on that famous. mission in '40s. Um so, he made a bag of money. >> He did. >> And then no more in that industry, right? >> he said, "Now it's time to get serious. about philosophy.". >> The whole point of the helicopter was. just to show that I was worthy to do. philosophy. >> What an amazing man. Um.

he's someone everyone should know his. name. He was so incredible. >> He he was. a gift. A gift to me. >> You've had many gifts, Jeffrey. I mean, I'm really you really have. Talk about. him. >> W- Well, >> What we I mean, what was he really like? >> He was the sweetest person. And. he loved young people.

He This was of course during the Vietnam. War era and he would tell all of his. older friends, "Uh listen to the young. people.". And of course the young people such as. myself at the time were. you know, into anti-war and into. things like mysticism and and also. drugs. >> How did he feel about his invention. being used so heavily in that war? >> It made him unhappy. He He.

He didn't like it and he. also felt personal pain every time a. pilot crashed. Uh cuz sometimes the I think at least on. one occasion they lost a test pilot. >> Sure. >> And. uh it it affected him deeply. His wife, uh Ruth Forbes Young, who came from a. famous Forbes family, very wealthy New. England family, uh created what was called the um.

International Peace Academy. And they were training diplomats. They. offered seminars to young diplomats from. all countries how to negotiate for peace. instead of for personal or. advantage only for your country. >> Have we learned nothing? Um did. did Arthur ever talk to you about that. famous seance in 1952.

with Forbes and the Astors and Alan. Dulles and the Council of Nine. and Puharich? >> Puharich, yes, we we well, not. specifically that seance. I. had many conversations with him. I lived. at the institute with him for about. six maybe nine months until um. >> You were living with Arthur Young? >> I I He invited me to move into the house. where he he and his wife were living and.

along with my best friend at the time, Saul Paul Sirag. >> Wow, I can't uh. you were too young to realize how. important that was. >> Yeah, I had no real appreciation. for many of the people I knew at that. time in terms of their depth and who. they were. I was young and naive. Um but I you know, I was a good learner. and he had obviously noticed in the. various seminars.

that Saul Paul and I were the ones who. asked the most questions and he got. really engaged in in his work. So, he he. wanted us to be part of his institute. and we were more than happy to do it. >> What did he tell you about that seance. and Puharich and. >> Really very little. >> Cuz it's become. it's mythology at this point. >> It it has been. I don't as I look back. on what I now know about it all, I I'm.

not sure what to make of it. Uh. Arthur, he did a lot of things. He was. one of the early Dianetics clears, he. and his wife. >> That's right. >> both were. He he. >> There was a lot of that at SRI. >> He he Well, there was, yeah. >> What is it about Dianetics and. Scientology that speaks to. >> Well, they. in Dianetics and Scientology, they're. very open to the paranormal. >> Sure. >> And I don't think.

that um. I can say much else of a positive nature. about it. >> Um. There's a dark side to to every. religion. Um but there's certainly something. maybe more so in Dianetics is. >> appealing to I mean one of the most. famous psychics, who's my personal. favorite, is Pat Price. >> Mhm. >> I believe he was a Scientologist, Hal. Puthoff. >> Yeah. >> Ingo Swann, Scientologist. >> That's all true. >> But Russell Targ, who was right in the. middle of all of it, was not.

>> Right. >> And so. uh it hard to say what influence. Scientology actually had. I think Ed. May, who took over the program after Hal. Puthoff left, was also. >> That's right. >> So. there there is that, but I don't think. any of those people maintained, except. for Pat Price, maintained their. connection with Scientology. It's. something they went through, they got. what they could out of it, and they. moved on. >> Right, they got clear, and that was.

enough. Um we'll take a quick break, but this is. a. good time to transition to SRI, and then. maybe we can talk a little bit about Ted. Owens. Okay, we'll be right back. >> So how I heard it was. you're you're a researcher, you're. around SRI, you're in the scene. >> Yeah. >> Russell and Hal hand you a file and say, "We can't do anything with that. What. can you do with this?". >> Right. >> Was that the Ted Owens file? >> That was the Ted Owens file. >> Why couldn't they do anything with that? >> Uh.

well, they were receiving funding from. the CIA. >> Yes. >> They had already gone public. with uh their research on Uri Geller. It. was published in Nature magazine, one of. one of the world's premier scientific. magazines. >> When was that around '75? >> '74, as I recall. Um. and. they didn't want to have a flamboyant. psychic. They didn't want to be in the.

news. Uri Geller at the time was. incredibly controversial. >> Why why? Because. >> Well, because he was being attacked by. the skeptics because he was a public. performer, a stage magician, and. you had people like The Amazing Randy. writing books. about what a fraud he was. And and. going, in fact, going to scientific. conferences and claiming that. in public that people I knew who were in.

no way confederates with Uri Geller were. helping him cheat. >> Mhm. >> And and so. you know, what people at SRI wanted, who. were, you know, it's largely a military. industrial think tank, they wanted to be. low-key. They didn't want to have any. kind of public prominence of that sort. And Ted Owens was. uh. doing everything he could to attract. publicity to himself. >> More so than Ingo Swann? >> Oh, I think so. Although Ingo was.

probably much smarter. >> Yes. >> [laughter]. >> about it. But Ted Owens. >> Much kinder, too, I would guess. >> Well, Owens had his kind side. >> He did? >> Sure. >> Okay. >> Yeah, I mean, he was kind to me. I had a. good relationship with him for many. years, but. if you. if you crossed him, that was another. matter. I was I had learned by that. point to because of my experience in San.

Quentin to treat everybody with respect, regardless of what they may have done or. what other people think of them or and. so on. I I believe every human being. deserves respect. Just for being human. >> Sure. You were the perfect person for. that cuz he has a. this sort of infamous reputation for. being. a little bit cagey. >> Feisty. >> Feisty. For sure. Feisty. >> He was feisty. He He was um. a you know, sailor. He He'd been a.

sailor in the Second World War and. um. then he went to Duke University. While. he was in the Navy, he was doing psychic. stuff right and left and he wrote a. letter to J.B. Rhine at Duke University. and said, "You know, here's what I'm. doing. I want to do experiments." and. Rhine was writing back and giving him. pointers and after he got out of the. Navy, Rhine said, "Come to Duke and I'll. we'll get you enrolled at Duke. University." and he did it. He became.

J.B. Rhine's uh assistant. >> Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah. So, what. was special about Ted? What could he do? >> Well, he claimed he could do. psychokinesis. >> Okay, so moving things. >> Moving things. He He told many stories. he had about um things disappearing in. his presence and he He said he did. seances for the Rhines and. things of this sort and. apparently when he was around girls,

their earrings would disappear. And J.B. Rhine actually tried to investigate. this, according to Ted. And um. but it it. he. he got he eloped with another woman from. Duke and left and tried to set himself. up as a. healer. He knew hypnosis, and he he was. quite successful as a healer until, I. think in 1954, the AMA shut him down.

Uh because they thought at at the time. hypnosis was. not. uh acceptable. And they thought he, you. know, he's practicing medicine, he's a. quack, and so on. And he became very. bitter. >> AMA has been like that since its. founding. Very against herbalists and. natural remedies. I'm not surprised. >> I think it's changing slowly, but in any. case, he began to think that he was working.

with nature, and then working with a poltergeist. He. thought it was a poltergeist he called. Big Lorna. And finally, it dawned on him. that it could be extraterrestrials. And. he remembered having had some weird. experiences. that appeared to be. uh of an extraterrestrial nature. And. finally, he felt, "Wait, I'm in. telepathic contact. They're talking to. me, and they're giving me instructions. how to interact with them, and teaching.

me their language." And he. he held many different jobs. He was a bullwhip artist at a circus. And then he had a knife-throwing. routine. And he was a jazz musician and. a high-speed typist. And and and and and. and he worked at one time as what he. called an idea man for a railroad. company. And he said that the. aliens, he called them the space. intelligences, had guided him since his.

childhood to have many different careers. so that his mind would be flexible. enough. to understand their very. complicated symbolic system. and also he claimed that they had been. searching since the days of Moses for. somebody with a nervous system strong. enough to handle all the energy that. they were going to run through him. And he thought of himself as, you know,

the first person since Moses to be able. to do these kinds of things. >> Messianic figure. >> He was. >> I think he's the first person to bring. the insectoid aliens to. to the public. Well, that was his. contact, right? >> Yeah, yeah, that was it. He said they he. Tweeter and Twitter. >> That's right. [laughter] That's right. >> Who who he called them that because they. had high spit pitched squeaky voices. >> Sure. >> They communicate with him telepathically. and he learned how to send them. telepathic images of what he wished them.

to accomplish. But uh. and then they would sit at their. invisible UFO high above the planet in. front of a big screen and push buttons. and whatever and make these things. happen. >> What was your research like with him? >> It was mostly about collecting. information because he he was. a force of nature. He he spent he wasn't. a wealthy man, but he spent almost all.

of his time and energy making these. doing these demonstrations. He. would send he had a list of scientists. He would mail. >> [snorts]. >> to each of these people a statement, "I'm about to do this or that." And they. were unusual things you would not expect. to happen. For example, right before I. visited Puthoff and Targ at SRI. International in Menlo Park, California,

he had written to them. He had been. pestering them for a couple of years. saying, you know, stop wasting your time. with Uri Geller. >> [laughter]. >> I'm the world's greatest psychic and. finally he he wrote to them and he said, "I'm going to prove it to you for good.". He said, uh. "I'm going to give you weather like you. have never seen before in Palo Alto. I'm. going to make It was a drought at the. time and in the San Francisco Bay Area,

it almost never snows. There's no snow.". >> No. >> there. And. he said, "You're going to have every. kind of weather. There'll be sleet and. hail and snow and there'll be power. blackouts and UFO sightings and it's all. going to happen in a couple of days and. your local newspaper is going to write a. story saying that the drought is over. because of all of this." At the time the. papers were saying no end in sight. >> Right. >> to the drought and all of this happened.

in a few days. >> It happened? >> It did happen. >> Were you working with him during this. >> No, this is This is right before I show. up at SRI. So, not only do they have the. files and do they want to get rid of the. files, but they are now convinced this. guy is for real. >> The CIA probably didn't know about him. because they would have liked to have. that guy handy. >> He tried everything he could to interest. the CIA. >> He did? >> Yes, he did. >> I'm I don't know why they didn't take. him on. He's He can create snow in.

California? >> Well, they had nothing No, they never to my. knowledge expressed an interest. He. claimed that he was in contact with some. agent from the CIA he called George. Clark and. uh but at one time he thought I was a. CIA agent, [laughter] so. >> Do you think he did that? Do you think. he made that happen? >> Well, it's always a question of whether he.

predicted it or whether he caused it. Now, Russell Targ sent him a letter. after that event and saying, "That was a. great prediction." And he wrote back and. said basically, "Hell, no, it was no. prediction. I caused it." And he was. always a little ambiguous as to whether. he caused it through his own powerful. mind or whether it was the space. intelligences who did it and had nothing. to do with him.

>> And I think Ed May was of the same. school of thought that that's just. precognition. You didn't do that. You. just saw something. >> Ed May doesn't believe in psychokinesis. >> He He just believes it's precognition. >> Yes. >> Yeah. That's very interesting the. arguments that happen within. parapsychology. You forget the skeptics. Within there's all these different. opinions. >> That's true. Yeah. >> So, you take Ted's file, what type of work did you do with him? >> Well, the first thing I wanted to do.

after reading it over carefully and. seeing, you know, by that time. I I first met Ted in um 1976. In the summer of '76 and and he I was in. England at the time. We met in London. And he had ended yet another drought. >> He went on He ended another drought? >> Well, what happened was. at SRI, they leaked a little story about. the drought in ending the drought in.

Menlo Park, in California. It was a big. drought. And. there was a drought going on in London, a very serious drought in all of England. in that summer. And when I arrived for a. parapsychology conference, my friends there said, "If you want to. have your picture. taken on on the front page of the London. Times, all you have to do is show up in. Piccadilly Circus with an umbrella, and people will [laughter] think you're. crazy, and they'll take your picture, and it'll be in the newspaper.".

It was that serious. They were bringing. water by truck. >> Wow. >> to cities outside of London where they. water had already run dry. But when Ted. Owens arrived, all of a sudden. it rained and poured, and. >> And he predicted that? >> He claimed he caused it. >> Claimed he caused it. >> So that that there that's the. circumstance of my meeting him, and. it was a parapsychology conference, and.

he was a speaker, but you. have to imagine this guy. sort of I think of him like Paul Bunyan, larger-than-life. big folk hero, and he had a big booming. voice, and he was a large man at the. time with a big beard, and he smoked a. cigar, and he walked on to. >> [clears throat]. >> the stage of this parapsychology. conference where he had been invited. because the people in London brought him.

there for the purpose of ending the. drought because they learned about what. had happened in California. >> Unbelievable. It worked? >> It worked, and he's on stage, and he's. about he carried a little red toy wagon. behind him. on to the stage with piled high with. papers, and and he said, "These papers. are all the documentation of the many. demonstrations I've done cuz I'm the. world's greatest psychic, [laughter] and. I can control the weather, and I can. make UFOs appear." Well,

the British people are not accustomed to. or. fond of that kind of American. braggadocio. >> Sure. >> behavior. And. >> [clears throat]. >> the strangest thing happened at that. time, which was. one of the speakers at the conference. didn't show up. So, Ted Owens was. scheduled to follow him. And so, they. said, "You go on." So, he's halfway.

through his presentation. and the guy shows up. >> Oh. >> And so, they tell him, "Okay, Ted, you've got to leave the stage.". >> Uh-oh. >> And. so, before he left the stage, people. the audience was already practically. booing him. >> Really? >> Yes. >> What, just because of his attitude? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah, he he didn't sit well with the. British public. >> Yeah. >> And I got up and said, "Well, I happen. to know about what happened in.

California first hand." And And I just. mentioned that. And you know, it was a. way to kind of ameliorate things. >> Sure, a calming presence. >> Yeah. >> Which you are. >> So, so, we bonded over that. And I began. looking at the files. And the thing that. appealed to me. was that he claimed he could produce. UFOs on demand. And there were examples in the files. where he'd go to police officers and.

he'd say, "I'll make you a UFO and you. will see it. It'll be in the newspapers. and you can tell them that I I said it. would happen." And then there would be. >> So, those files were real? >> Yeah, oh yeah. >> Did you see him produce UFOs or anything. like this? >> I set up an experiment. I said, "Let's. do it again.". >> Yeah. >> And and um. before I had any opportunity to really. set up the experiment, he was on it. He. said, "I'm going to do this." He said, "You There won't be one. There're going.

to be three." And it's. >> He called the number, okay? >> He said there'll be three big UFO. sightings within um. 100 miles of the San Francisco Bay Area. >> How skeptical are you? >> Well, skeptical enough to realize that. this wasn't the way you should be done. >> Right. Right. [laughter]. >> Uh so, I scrambled. I said, "We need a. control group.". Uh I have friends in San Diego, a. California West Coast city, about the. same population as San Francisco. I.

wrote to them and said, "We'll use San. Diego as a control group." I sent. letters out to every law enforcement. agency within 100 miles of both cities. Said, "Let me know if you get any UFO. sightings. in your area.". Uh and. waited to see what would happen. And. sure enough, there was. a fellow near San Francisco, a little. town called Concord, California, with out walking in 4:00 in the morning,

and claimed that he'd been abducted by. aliens. >> [laughter]. >> at 4:00 in the morning. Perfectly sober. person at the time, with no background. in UFOs. We interviewed him, and it. actually, from all accounts, seemed like. he had reported it to the police. It was. in the newspapers, and it seemed like, yeah, this this was appeared to be the. first legitimate sighting. >> And were there three of them? >> Well, after that,

Owens called me up on the phone. He He, at the time, as I recall, was living in. Oregon. He moved around a lot. And. he said uh to me, "I can tell the next. one is going to be really big.". He said, "I feel it coming." He said, "There's going to be a UFO. It's going. to be one of the best sightings ever.". He said, "It's going to be seen by. hundreds of people. It's going to be. photographed, and the photograph will be.

published on the front page of one of. your local newspapers. Uh which is what happened 4 days later. >> 4 days later it happened. >> Yes. >> I At some point, are you starting to. really believe this guy? >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> [laughter]. >> Um and I I'd be hoping don't predict. anything bad. >> Well, there were. >> I know. Um before we get to that, I know we both. know Chris Bledsoe. >> Yes. >> I think we both agree he's a lovely man. >> Yes.

>> He. he can summon something. >> Yes. >> Um I don't think that's a debate. He's. He's studied by the government, CIA. He believes that he's. summoning. spiritual entities. >> Right. >> What do you think? >> Well, yes, you could call them orbs. >> Sure. >> And he believes and people I think other. people would agree that these orbs. they are either conscious themselves or. they are inhabited by conscious beings.

He calls the lady. >> Yes. >> It does indeed appear to be something. not so different um from. angelic apparitions that occur in the. Bible. >> He made predictions on this very show a. few months ago that are that are coming. true. >> Yeah. >> Was Ted summoning those same type of. entities? >> I. don't think so. >> It doesn't sound like it. It sounds like. craft.

>> Well, yes, it does seem like craft. The. one that occurred that I just mentioned. uh was seen. both from the air and the ground. They. California. University, what's now called Sonoma. State University, at the time it was had. a different name, Sonoma State College. or something, and. uh. near San Francisco in Rohnert Park, California. The art department was sponsoring a an.

artist named Steven Polansky who had a. airplane. He was a pilot and he had. smoke trailing out the back of his. airplane, colored smoke. He made designs. in the sky. >> That was his art? >> That was his art. >> What a cool What a cool job. Cool art. project. >> an artist and so the art department. sponsored him and he's flying over the. campus. uh, 3,000 ft altitude. There hundreds of. students are outside with their cameras. watching the whole thing, including.

video. And a UFO shows up right in his. airspace. And so it seemed from the air and by. hundreds of people on the ground. simultaneously photographed and. videotaped. It got a lot of PR. The. Berkeley Gazette ran a photo on the. front page as Ted Owens had said would. happen. >> Yeah. >> And the video was shown on the channel 9. KQED evening news. >> Did your phone ring with an I told you. so? >> Yeah. >> Of course. >> Yeah. And.

I made a big mistake. >> What was that? >> I said, "Ted, that's only two. >> Oh, no. >> sightings. >> [laughter]. >> So what did he do? >> He slammed the phone down. >> Oh, okay. >> He slammed the phone down. and I began to feel. sick. You know how you get a little scratchy. feeling in your throat and you think, "Uh-oh, uh, this is going to be a bad sore.

throat.". >> Yes. >> And you can tell it's starting. >> Yes. >> That's what was happening. >> As soon as you. >> Yeah. Right away it happened. And then 45 minutes later. he called me back. and without saying anything about what. had happened, he simply said, "Jeffrey, I will never do that to you again.". >> Oh my goodness. >> Yeah. And. this this sore throat went away. >> You're well known for being very.

balanced. Um. I've never seen you really fully commit. without hearing all sides. I you've got to be a full believer at. that point. He He can He can hurt. people. >> Yeah. I I would say by then I was. [laughter] definitely convinced, but it. it got worse. after that. >> He Your relationship with him? >> Well, yeah, because he he was, as I say, trying to get the attention of the CIA. and the US government. He he was living.

on the edge of poverty. He was spending. all of his money on Xeroxing all of the. magazine and articles and newspaper. articles validating the different. demonstrations that he was doing and. mailing it off to scientists who. um were trying Some of them were, you. know, seriously following his work, but. none of them had the resources and he. wanted the US government to set him up. as an institution and he would use his.

powers for the benefit of humanity and. for the United States. And of course, they wanted him nothing to do with him. >> I wonder why that is. Did they ever. approach you? I mean I mean just to ask. about him. >> No. No, I was never approached, but I. was, you know, at the time I was pretty. well known, I suppose, as a long-haired. hippie. uh psychedelic drug user and and the CIA. would have no interest in a person like. me.

>> Right. The CIA but doesn't want anything. to do with drugs or psychedelics. >> Ex- except [laughter] except if it's. Puharich right. researching, but but they they weren't. particularly interested in in the type. of person I was at the time. And. uh. but Owens was desperate for for their. help and attention and he finally said, "I'm going to declare war against the US. government until they give me what I. want.". >> you that? >> Oh, yes. >> And this is after the sore throat? >> Yes.

>> So, you know. >> I know. >> he can do this. >> Well, he he declared war. He said, "There're going to be poltergeist. attacks on US naval ships." And then he. showed me newspaper articles about. mysterious fires and things that. happened aboard naval vessels. And then. he said, "I'm going to attack power. plants." And he would send me newspaper. clippings about uncanny accidents at. nuclear power sites. But. >> Why would the CIA not bring this guy in? He sounds like exactly what they wanted.

Is just unstable? >> Well, I first of all, I think it was too. unbelievable. >> It's It's unbelievable. >> Unbelievable. >> But But you've you've confirmed what. about 2/3 of his. >> I have, but that was me. I've heard I get convened a meeting of. scientists. My wife, Janelle, went L J Allen Hynek. was in town in San Francisco and she. went and fetched him from his hotel room. and brought him to the meeting and we.

had about a dozen scientists there. I. said, "Look, we've got to research this. man.". >> Yes. >> And J Allen Hynek said, "I wouldn't. touch him with a 10-ft pole. because the phenomena that he produces. come from the unconscious and I don't. want to have anything to do with that.". >> I think he had a point. I think I think. Hynek had a point about Ted There's. something that scares me about him. >> Yeah. >> After that sore throat and you hang up. the phone, you've got to be thinking, "I.

can't cross this guy again.". >> I know I wasn't I was naive. I suppose. >> Really? >> Well, and I also trusted him. I He said. he wouldn't do it again, and. >> Oh, boy. >> I and and I had no intention to cross. I. didn't cross him just to say, "You know, you promised me three and we only got. two.". >> Why [laughter] did you say that? Were. you teasing him? >> I wanted the third one. >> [laughter]. >> Oh my goodness. >> I Well, and then it never came. There.

were only two. And I I can tell you in San Diego, there. were zero. >> Right. >> But. uh so, he didn't fulfill his promise. exactly as he said he would. And it it. never works out exactly quite the same. way. There's always some differences, and these are large-scale phenomenon. They're hard to assess uh statistically. in any way, and people figure, "Well, he's just fooling you somehow. You don't. know how." Um.

but maybe he, you know, knows, or he's. predicting, or. he he he's in cahoots with the. newspapers. Who knows? >> There's always going to be that. >> Yeah. >> So, you continued to work with him for a. number of years. >> But it began I began to lose interest. >> Why? >> Because. his war against the US government wasn't. going too well. [laughter] And at some. point, he he made a big prediction, and. you know, they weren't paying attention.

to the poltergeist attacks and the. nuclear power plant. problems. And and he said, "Okay, this. is going to be it. Massive earthquake. I'm going to really show them." And it. didn't happen. >> It didn't happen. >> No. Thank goodness. >> It didn't happen. And at that point, I. was moving on in my life. I wasn't. thinking about Ted Owens. until. it would have been Christmas Eve. 1985.

and he called me up. with a big booming voice. I had. hadn't had much I was keeping the files. I still have all the files. >> You still have those research files? >> We are putting them online. They will. eventually become searchable. >> Oh, that's. >> online. We're making them all machine. readable and uh even the handwritten. ones. And he said, "Jeffrey, this is the most.

important phone call you will ever. receive.". Uh he obviously wanted to get my. attention. >> You've got mine. >> Yeah. He said, "It's up to you. You've got to contact the US government. and tell them not to send up the next. space shuttle.". >> Oh, no. >> Because if they do, my UFOs are going to. knock it out of the sky. >> Oh, no. >> That's what he said. >> So. >> And I first of all had no leverage.

whatsoever with the US government. I. wasn't about to. I didn't know who to call and I wouldn't. have known what to say and they wouldn't. have believed me in any case. And so I did nothing. And then it was about a month later. when the Challenger exploded. >> That's one of those moments that uh. I don't know if it is for you, but. everyone says where they were when JFK. they found out JFK was killed. For me. it's it's Challenger. I remember what.

the weather was. I know what I was. wearing. I remember watching it on TV. I. was home from school. >> Yeah. >> Do you remember that day? >> Not particularly. I I remember reading. and learning about it, of course, but uh. I don't remember the moment the way I do. remember the. assassination of Kennedy. >> Right. Did you make the connection when. when Challenger exploded? >> Oh, it shook me to my bones. would. >> so. >> I I felt like horrified. >> What about guilt? Like you should have.

done something? >> Uh no, I don't think there was anything. I could have done. >> think there was, but. but guilt is an easy emotion to feel. >> I felt I should stop ignoring him. >> Yes. >> And [snorts] and what I arranged to do. at that point was to take his training. program. >> Did to try to learn to do what he does? >> He had a training program and I felt I. better learn about it. >> It's This sounds like what? You're. training to defend yourself? What would. you.

>> Well, you could do whatever you want. with it. That's the thing. >> [laughter]. >> And. >> This is scary. >> He said to me, "What do you want to do. with these powers?". We He I. arranged for him to come to San. Francisco. I had some friends who had. some money, so we could afford to bring. him out and. >> So you called him, "Please stop crashing. shuttles. Come on down.". >> Well, he claimed it wasn't he who. crashed the shuttle. >> the. >> It was the UFOs.

in his behalf. >> But But he He asked them to do it. >> No, he didn't say that. >> Okay, because that would be evil to me. >> He didn't say He never told me he asked. them to do it, but he said that they did. it. >> He did ask you to warn them, so maybe. >> me to warn them. >> Maybe he was trying to save them. I'm. trying to give him the benefit of the. doubt, but it's But I There's so much of. darkness to this character. >> to it and and and of course there's the. other story. It was the O-ring.

There were There were warnings. NASA. should have known better. There was all. of that. >> Sure. >> And not only that, there were other. people making predictions. >> Yes, there were. >> So. I All I could say for myself was I. better pay more attention to Ted Owens. So I. uh arranged to take his training. program, which was 3 days. And it was mostly hypno- hypnosis. We We.

got a hotel room for him in San. Francisco, and I had a couple of friends. with me, and. for 3 days he hypnotized us. >> And what kind of What kind of hypnosis. is this? Is he I mean, it's not the He's. not wagging a watch in front of your. eyes, right? >> No. No. He does a normal hypnotic induction, and. he And he gives you suggestions, and it. I wrote a book called The PK Man, in. which I because I recorded the entire. thing. I had I still have the audio. tapes.

>> You have those? >> Of the entire training. >> I mean, I've I've read the transcripts. in PK Man. I didn't know you still had. the tapes. >> I have the tapes. >> You need to make those available. >> Well, maybe. Yeah. I I could, but uh, he warned me. He said, "You shouldn't. really share this with people without. getting the permission of the space. intelligences.". >> Oh, so the whole training is around. these the space intelligences? >> He He said that I asked him, "Is this. just hypnosis? Is that what you're.

doing?" He said, "No. The hypnosis is. only part of it." He said, "It's. psychokinesis. And. we're working on you on your brain. The. space intelligences will work on your. brain." He said, "What do you want to do. with this power?". And I said to him, "I don't want to do what you're doing.". >> No. >> I [laughter]. I have no interest in controlling the. weather and calling down UFOs. So, what. I really want to do.

is become a spokesperson to the world at. large, to mainstream public, about the realities. of the psychic world. And. that was my goal. And. uh. it was 6. months, I think I took the training and. it would have been February and by June. I had set up uh the original Thinking. Allowed TV series. We started out on uh.

cable local cable public access TV in. Marin County and. within year or two we were out on the. satellite to public TV stations all over. North America. >> And that show, I think ran 16 years. >> From 1986. to 2002. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Do you credit that training and the. intelligences or. >> I don't know how I could have done it. myself. >> What did they do that you could You were.

already. in media, no? >> Well, I had. I kind of gave up my radio show and. >> Why? >> Because I wanted to complete my. dissertation and get a doctoral degree. >> Okay. Okay. >> So, [snorts] I you know, I became a. full-time graduate student and. wrote a dissertation and wrote a couple. of books and. it was. only 1986, 6 years and then I was. fighting this lawsuit.

>> Right. >> because. >> Right. >> the skeptics were trying to take my. degree away from me and I was being. libeled by them and so I fought a libel. suit for 6 years, which I won. >> Which you won. >> Yeah. And and then I set up this. program and. before we knew, you know, we started on. a public access cable and. >> Uh. >> not even in any of the mainstream. San Francisco stations, but in a in a.

suburban station and you know, 2 years. later we're out on the satellite covered. by 120 and 20 TV stations. I It just happened. >> And you think that it was that training. and this. >> I did. >> Why couldn't you have done it you still. could have? >> I could have. Who knows? >> Right. >> I can't say for sure, but I I can say. that it seemed to happen without any. effort. >> Because it seems like you forgot that. you went from intern as a receptionist.

at radio station to a hit radio show in. 3 weeks. So clearly you know. how to reach the public. >> a good interviewer. I understood that. >> Yes. >> Yeah, but. you know, this material had hadn't gone. mainstream and PBS stations were very. hesitant. And and and even in the early. days we didn't cover a lot of. parapsychology. the way I'm more inclined to do now on. YouTube. Where I don't have, you know, in PBS. they're very conservative actually.

>> Yeah. >> And for example in. when our program went out on the. satellite we had some sponsors, the. Institute of Noetic Sciences sponsored. us well and. I think it was Nashville, Tennessee the. local PBS station. went to a local psychologist and asked. him, "What's your opinion? Should we run. and carry this program?" And he said to. them, "The people of Tennessee are not.

ready for this." [laughter]. >> They really were. They were ready for it. Um Ted Owens. died in 1987. How did that relationship. wrap up. for the two of you? >> Well, at that point. obviously we were in touch. This was. like. a year after I had done the training. with him and our TV show had was. launched. I was I was getting what I had. asked for. >> Mhm.

>> And. I heard from him. He He wrote to me from. a farmhouse in Fort Ann, New York where. he had moved. And he his letter was quite strange. He. said, "The UFOs told me to come here. They're They're going to come for me.". And then he sent me clippings of. newspaper articles about UFO sightings. and in the area and he said they're. actually they're hovering right over. this farmhouse where I'm living. And and he died there.

>> Did you keep those clippings? >> Yeah. Oh, yeah, I have them all. >> [snorts]. >> I had heard you say at one point that uh. you almost warned him or told him that. not that he was evil, but he was. dangerous. To be careful. >> I I did. I was very unhappy with the. threats that he was making and I asked. him to stop doing it. I. I've always felt that he's his own worst. enemy. >> It's what it sounds like. >> Yeah.

I I tried as much as I could to interest. the scientific community. I was still. trying to do that. But it's it's like for most people it's. a step too far. Although things are changing. >> Yes, they are. >> Chris Bledsoe, as you mentioned. >> And um I asked Chris I said, "Do you. think people should learn how to do. this?" He said, "No." He said. He said, "This is a gift and a curse.". and. he said, "I wouldn't mess with it.". >> Yeah. >> I think he's probably right. >> Mhm.

>> Could. Ted Owens' consciousness have existed. past his death and contacted you? >> Well, in fact, it was I think 2023. if I recall, 2022, I heard from a viewer of my. YouTube show, some fellow in Germany, wrote to me and he. said uh "I was meditating. I'm a deep. meditator and while I was in meditation,

I experienced a presence. And the presence. uh became more solid to me in my. meditation, and I recognized it as Ted. Owens cuz I was a fan of your program, and I've seen some pictures of Ted Owens. that you've shown, and it was him. And he said to me, "Reach out to Jeffrey. and tell him that if he wants to contact. me, I'm available.". >> Wow.

>> And um. Now, this is 35 years after his death, something like that. I guess that would. have been 2022. And. so I endeavored. >> You did. Cuz at this point, you're. well-known, you won the Bigelow Prize. So, you're working in. in death afterlife experiences on. consciousness. >> Yeah. And and it was quite clear to me at that. point that there's a relationship. between the afterlife and UFOs.

>> Oh, yes. So, how did you try to contact. Ted? >> Well, what happened was I I would try to. meditate. >> Sure. >> And nothing happened, and but one night. I was asleep. And you know, you're kind. of half awake, half asleep, in a. hypnagogic state, and I felt his presence. >> Mhm. >> And. I see. said to him, we had a conversation. I I said to him,

uh this is the early phases of the. Ukraine war at the time. It would have. been. I think around December of 2022. And. at the time, the Soviets were not the. Soviets, the Russians. >> Mhm. >> were um bombing the power plants in. Ukraine trying to freeze them in the. winter. And I I for the people of. Ukraine. I said. and I thought Ted would be sympathetic.

to that. And I said to him. and this just popped into my head in. this altered state of consciousness. Can. we make it warm for the winter in. Ukraine so the people don't suffer. That That was my concern. And he and I knew of course that he had. done this sort of thing while he was. alive. Exactly this sort of thing. He. waves in the middle of winter with. there were examples of. So. he said to me if the space intelligence.

is agree. then we can do it. And so I. um I created I think I. a monologue. I put it out on the video. This is This is what he says is going to. happen. And again it was just a few days later. I'm thinking January 1st. if I recall correctly 2023. there were a thousand.

temperature records broken all across. Europe. >> Unbelievable. >> It was. And it was totally. characteristic of the kinds of things he. had done. in the past and and I recall because I. was now the internet was very active uh. and and there were meteorologists who. specialize in. rare weather patterns, absurd things and. they were posting on they had blogs and.

things and saying this is insane. We've. never seen anything like this before. It. came out of nowhere. It was. unanticipated. And I endeavored to set up an experiment. to see you know could we measure. statistically. um. and I. failed. >> Failed? >> Well, the reason is simply that a. thousand records are all correlated with. each other. So, in effect, it's one. record. >> Right. >> And you can't get good statistics out of.

a a single example. And yes, it was a. warm summer in Ukraine, and they. survived the Russian onslaught. In fact, they were exporting electricity at the. time. And um. uh but it wasn't something I could say, "Here's statistical proof." I couldn't. do that. But in every other regard, it. would have been. a success. >> Did you go back and talk to Ted again? Thank him? Cuz by. >> no, I never.

entered into that state again. And and. I've been reluctant. since then, too. Excuse me. [clears throat]. I felt some of maybe the some of the. same trepidation you spoke to. Like, I. shouldn't be playing around with this. Uh. it works too well. And somebody wrote to. me. A viewer wrote to me and said, "Do. you realize that because of that heat. wave, some people died from the heat?". >> I didn't consider that.

>> Yeah. And and I thought, well, what. maybe there are unintended consequences, and I don't know entirely what I'm. doing. And. it but it wasn't as if I had ongoing. communication. >> Right. >> uh. with him. And I haven't felt that kind. of contact, and I haven't in tried to. cultivate it, either. >> And you initiated that. So, it's not. like he invaded your consciousness. >> Right. I I was, you know, at at that. time hoping to have it. And And when it.

happened, and and when it worked, I. uh I began to think, well, maybe it's. me. Maybe I'm the one doing it. And. I don't know, but I I just felt like. it's it's better left. uh uh to other people. Or. that my role is still as an educator and. a communicator and I I don't need to try. to win the war. >> I totally agree. Even if it was you, you. probably don't want that responsibility.

>> Yeah. >> Um. you've been in this space for a long. time and how do you handle I I know you. handle criticism very well now because. you've been doing it a long time. Were. you ever angry? >> Sure. >> And you were? I'm surprised to hear you say that so. quickly. >> Well, I don't get angry easily. >> No, you don't. >> No. >> I mean I mean nowadays I critics attack. you and it just rolls off. But there was a time where you were. frustrated with academia or mainstream?

>> Well, I that's I. made me sick, literally. They were. trying to I had spent 10 years at. Berkeley. I was a graduate student from. 1970 to 1980. uh when I got my doctoral degree and. they [clears throat] were trying to take. it away from me. I was very angry and. and it affected my health. >> Of course. >> uh as as well. It never occurred to me to try to punish. those people. I was just struggling to.

uh. protect my reputation because even. parapsychologists in the parapsychology. community, they wanted to I was being. attacked so heavily, they didn't want to. have anything to do with me. At the. time, my my application for membership. in the Parapsychological Association was. rejected initially. >> For on what ground? >> Because of the controversy that. >> Ah. >> I got a doctoral degree at Berkeley and.

and people were saying he's incompetent, he shouldn't have gotten the degree, the. whole thing, you know, it was became a. major. point of focus. I filed a libel suit. >> So you have no Do you have any allies at. that point? >> Yes, of course I had some allies. Like. my professors. >> Oh, right. What about personal Were there personal. costs? Were there personal support? >> Well, I You know, it affects you. inwardly when that happens. I I felt.

mortified. And I felt a little bit embarrassed to. show myself in public. And you know, Arthur Young had predicted it will take. you 6 years to undo all the damage. >> And he was right. >> It It was 6 years later when I launched. the Thinking Allowed television series. >> Arthur was right again. >> Yeah. >> And it's interesting that. your mom was an actress. >> Yeah. >> Very outward. Then becomes a yoga.

instructor. Very inward. >> Yeah. >> And you kind of had a similar path. With. criminology and sociology is very. outward. >> Mhm. >> And then parapsychology is very inward. >> Yeah. >> Did you get that from her? >> Well, now that you mention it, I. >> [laughter]. >> I I think that um. balance was very important. My mother. always used to say to me, "Moderation in. all things, including moderation.". >> [laughter].

>> I just thought it was very interesting. >> Yeah. >> Um. So, you wrote a 95-page essay. Can you. tell us what the Bigelow prizes? I mean, in Vegas everybody knows. the name Bigelow, but. can you tell us about that? And why And. why did you enter that contest? >> It was very strange. >> Okay, I'm ready. I love strange. >> Well, I I got the news. Robert Bigelow. is sponsoring a contest, Life After.

Death. And I thought to myself, well, there are a lot of smart people who will. enter that competition, people in the. universities who are studying like. University of Virginia where they do a. lot of work in that area. Surely one of. those people is bound to win. And I knew Leslie Kean. >> You did. >> Yeah, I'd interviewed her. >> Oh, I guess you would have, yeah, cuz. this is 2021. >> And well, this would have been 2020. >> 2020, okay. >> But I I launched the YouTube channel in.

2015. And Leslie had been on as a guest. And. so I reached out to her. I said, "Leslie, it's perfect for you. You. should enter this contest." And and she. wrote back and said, "Well, I happen to. be one of the judges.". >> Oh. >> And she said, "Furthermore, you should. listen to this. uh interview that Robert Bigelow did. I. think it was with George Knapp on uh. uh radio or TV." She gave me a link and.

I listened to it and. uh. she said, "He's already predicting that. you should enter the contest." And I. listened and George Knapp, I think it. was George Knapp, was saying, "Who. should enter your contest?" And he said, "Well, people like Jeffrey Mishlove. should enter. People who've been. studying this their whole lives.". And I thought to myself, um. "Gosh, you know, that's um.

how can I uh. enter because there's so many people who. would be much better at at it than me.". >> Not true. >> But. um. how can I not? >> How can you not? >> So so I I did and and I struggled with. it. It wasn't an easy essay to to write. I had help. >> Why was Bigelow so interested in after. death? >> His wife had had died and he'd been. through a lot. Uh.

his you know, he had set up this. aerospace business and then an AIDS or. not AIDS, COVID. COVID came along and. the governor of Nevada had basically. ruled that he had a non-essential. business. He had to let all of his. employees go. And. the business, the aerospace company, to. my knowledge, has never recovered. >> I used to drive by every day on the way. to work and the ghost town. It's just a. big yellow building. No one's there.

>> He still maintains a skeleton staff, but. uh. >> But he had personal tragedy. >> he had, you know, personal tragedies. He. I think a grandchild had committed. suicide and a. >> And his son? >> His wife had died and he he had earlier. in his career launched the National. Institute of Discovery Science and they. were big into UFOs and and. extraterrestrial intelligence, but.

and then at this point he said he wanted. to shift. He wanted to For he couldn't. do both UFOs and life after death, so he. wanted to study life after death and. launching the competition would be his. entry. in into that arena. >> And he he asked for your help? >> Well, he [laughter]. indirectly, I didn't know him at that. point. >> But he knew you, so now. >> He knew of me. Yeah. >> You were the name, though. >> Yeah.

>> So, you got to work. >> Yeah, I think maybe we had spoken once. or twice at by that time and. >> What what what When did you make the. decision to say, "Okay, I I have to. enter this?". >> Well, I talked it over with my wife. >> Right. [laughter]. >> And she said, "Of course you have to.". >> Of course you have to. >> Yeah. I was reluctant at first. >> Why? >> Uh because I felt there were other. people who were far more qualified. >> You don't give yourself enough credit. You've You've You've been You've talked.

to every legend in this. field. >> It's true. I I have In that regard. >> Who has interviewed more people than. you? >> Well, maybe you have for all I know, but. >> This is episode 11. >> [laughter]. >> You've done 1,500. >> Well, there are people who have done. more, but. in any case. doing interviews isn't the same as. researching, doing. experiments, publishing in scientific. journals. I I was more of a popularizer.

than an original researcher. It's not as. if I have hundreds of scientific. publications to my name. I don't. >> You had You had a few peer-reviewed. papers out there. >> I have a few, and and there are people. who have hundreds and who who know this. field back and forth and. some of them entered the competition, and some of the people I thought were. sure to win didn't even enter. I guess. they felt maybe they were too old or.

something. >> So, um. So, Janelle says you got to do it. >> I got to do it. >> And you What's your approach to the. essay? >> Well, I decided if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it to win. >> Attaboy. >> And so I I cut back on my other. projects, including the YouTube channel. >> We noticed. >> And. and I focused myself nearly full-time. for 6 months to work on it, and I had.

some good friends who would read over my. drafts. My first draft was terrible, and I completely had to discard it and. and start over. But I finally, you know, got into the. groove, and. I realized also that I. wrote to the Bigelow Institute and said, "Can I include a video segments in the. interview?" Cuz I had a big video. library about it. They said, "Yes, you.

can.". So, I think I was the only person who. did that. >> [gasps]. >> And and of course the the ground rules. for the competition fit me very well. because they said. what they wanted was an essay that would. be as if you're taking a case to a jury. in a courtroom. So, I had my criminology. background. >> Right. >> And I could approach it that way as a. criminologist. And they said, "You know,

first-hand testimony." And I had a big. library of first-hand testimony. And in particular, I realized I had I'd done an interview. long ago, but I had the video, with one of the world's great. scientists, Francis Crick, the. the man who invented or discovered the. the helix property of DNA. >> we know who he. >> He he sort of opened up yeah. >> Okay. >> I and I and he had written a book called.

The Astonishing Hypothesis, in which. he said, "I'm going to set out to prove. that. consciousness is generated by the. neurons of the brain." He said, "It. hasn't yet been proven." And I have him. on tape saying, "You know, the religious people might be correct. The the consciousness might exist. outside the brain completely, and we. might actually survive the death of the. physical body." So, I was able to. include that.

video clip uh. in in the essay. I thought that was. one of the the strong points, plus all. the testimony that I had from many, many. people who had personal experiences, plus my own story. >> That's why those scientists didn't. go in the contest. They saw you were. going to be there with Francis Crick and. they said, "Ah, We got We got. nothing. We can't compete with that.". >> didn't know. >> Come on. So, it's 95 pages, which I which I read.

It's brilliant. Can you break down the. thesis then the nine categories? >> Well, the basic idea is that there are. many independent lines of evidence all. pointing in the same direction. It could. be out-of-body experiences, it could be. near-death experiences, it could be the. reincarnation research, it could be. mental mediumship or physical. mediumship, which is really. extraordinary. Trumpets flying around the room.

>> Yep. >> Um. it could be what is called instrumental. transcommunication. or sometimes called electronic voice. phenomena. People who communicate with. their deceased relatives. using a computer or radio. Or they have. these devices, what are they called now? Voice Spirit boxes. Spirit boxes and and. the like. Of course, there are lots of TV programs that. feature these.

>> Sure. >> things. And and some of it's legitimate. >> Some of Most is bunk, but some is. legitimate. Edison and Tesla were both. trying to build one of those. >> Yeah. That's right. Some, but not all. >> Some, but not all. >> Yeah. And so, >> But but there's the white crow theory, I. think. Wasn't William James? >> William James. >> white crow? >> Who was my intellectual hero. >> Is he? >> Yeah. >> So, do you remember his saying about the. white crow? >> Oh, yes. >> Please. >> Well, William James put it this way. Said, "If you want to disprove.

the claim that all crows are black, you. only need to find one white crow.". >> That's right. >> And then he said, "Mrs. Piper, the. medium he was working with, is my white. crow. and he took a lot of heat for that too. because the scientific establishment. was in no way interested in here he is a. Harvard professor. saying this medium can really do it. She's talking to the dead and and coming.

up with information that she couldn't. possibly have known and people were. attacking him viciously for that. >> But he stuck to his guns. He did. I. think I remember reading about him. saying, you know, what about these other. mediums and he said there's no stick big. enough to not you know, to knock them. around with. he didn't like them in this space but he. liked his particular his white crow. >> Well, you you know, I think if I. remember the quote about no stick big.

enough. it was it was this that he he was this. this is in the pages of science main. American scientific publication where. he's arguing about mediumship and the. people are calling him a crank and and. and all sorts of insults and he wrote. responded by saying the quality of the. criticism is so poor. >> [laughter]. >> Their arguments are are are so beneath.

the dignity of of of of a scientist to. argue the way they're arguing that any. stick will do you can. >> [laughter]. >> this dog is is is such a vile creature. that any stick you can find is is you. can beat the dog with it doesn't matter. You you hold mediumship in such. contempt. >> I wouldn't want to debate William James. on anything. He's one of the great. thinkers of of our time. >> Yeah, I I would agree. >> So in your paper.

we've got all these things pointing in. the same direction. I'd like to know. what happened when you found out you. won? >> Well, I got a phone call. from the Bigelow Institute and they said. Robert Bigelow would like to speak with. you. Uh he will call you. tomorrow morning at 9:30. So I'm sitting by the phone. >> [laughter]. >> I'm sitting by the phone.

And 28. >> And and. it was 10:00. Finally I hadn't heard. from him. >> a long half hour. [laughter]. >> So so I called them. >> Oh, you did? >> I called them back. I said Robert. Bigelow was going to call me at 9:30. What happened? And they said, "Oh, he. hasn't come into the office yet. He'll. call you when he gets in.". >> This is killing you. >> So. >> Is is your wife Is Janelle home? >> Janelle was at home. >> She's just telling you to calm down.

He's going to He's going to be calm. down. >> Yeah. And and so I Finally he calls and we're. talking and he says, "Well, you won. first prize.". And. Janelle is peeking her head in the door. She says, "When?" So I hold my finger up. like this. One finger. I held it up and. and she goes to tell my stepson Lewis. who lives with us. She says, "Jeff won first prize." And Lewis says, "Well, how do you know?" And she said,

"Well, he held up one. >> [laughter]. >> one finger." And Lewis says, "Well, maybe that doesn't mean. >> I know, but [laughter]. >> But it was. >> Wives know. >> Yeah. She knew. >> So how did you feel though? I mean, talk. about validation. >> It was validating, but I can tell you. this. I knew. >> You did? >> I knew. >> You were so humble going in and so. >> But by that time. I It was the way I knew I was going to. have a dream that night.

when I had the dream of the magazine, that changed my life. I had absolute. certainty at that point. that I was going to win. >> I wouldn't looked up um how many judges. voted for your paper. Do you remember. how many? >> All of them. >> Unanimous. >> All six, yeah. >> Yes. What did you do when you hung up the. phone? >> Um well, I was elated, obviously. It was. I I think the first thing I did was.

write to the people who had helped me. and and to even to my professors back in. >> Of course. >> and thanking them. >> This is five decades of work. >> Yeah. It was a uh. a validation for me for taking a huge. risk. >> Yes, it was. And a lot of personal cost. >> Yeah. >> Health to your health, the litigation. >> Yeah. >> Is this one of those.

proudest moments? Is this a victory? Is. this triumphant moment for you? >> I mean, sure. Yeah. And and of course the financial benefit. was. appreciated. >> How much did you win? >> It was half a million dollars. >> That's real. That's That's green money. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was. >> I think if there was no money, it would. have felt just as good. >> Probably. It probably would have. Many people get. awards with no money attached,

and they feel good. >> You were. further attacked by mainstream when you. won that prize. >> Um. a little bit. >> It I guess it didn't matter at that. point. I mean, cuz I followed it. >> Yeah. I'm not aware of really any serious. attacks. The Bigelow competition was. seriously attacked. >> That's really what it was. >> It was about. but I noticed that the the critics for. the most part focused not on my essay.

but on some of the others because there. were 29 different prizes awarded. The judges said that there were so many. good essays that were contributed. that. they urged him to award more prizes than. he had originally agreed and he did. >> Are those available to the public to. read? Oh, that's. that's going to be interesting. >> They they are all online.

>> How comfortable were you with. life after death going into that? Were. you you were. convinced it was it's a real phenomenon? >> me a chance to look back and and. remember how this all started for me. I. had kind of almost forgotten about my. dream of Uncle Harry but as I look back. on it, I could see. from the benefit of decades that my. whole life turned around. after that dream.

And I thought that's the power of the. afterlife. You can find it in examples. of people who have been deeply touched. by these experiences. They change their. life permanently. And there were many other examples. Bishop Pike in California who was the. Episcopalian Bishop of California. resigned. >> That's right. >> As a result of his communications with. his son who had died.

Elizabeth Kubler-Ross became one of the. most influential people in America as a. result of communications that she had. had with a. former patient of hers who had. who had deceased at that point. That these things are life changing and. that to me was more proof than you would. ever find in a scientific experiment if.

you look at the how it's touched the. lives of people. >> I think Uncle Harry would have been. proud of you for winning that prize. >> Well, he sure had a lot to do with it. >> did. >> Yeah. I can't say that I felt much uh. contact with Uncle Harry since that. dream. It I think the important lesson. for me is you don't have to have psychic. experiences all the time. They come when. they come. They're really not under our.

conscious control very much. They a. little bit a little bit, but. you only need one or two good ones in in. your life and it can put you on a path. where you can appreciate, you know, they're all around us. It's happening. all the time to millions of people every. day, but it's it's not that important. for a human being. It's important to. know that they're real, but you know, we. have other responsibilities.

in in our life than to be psychic. >> Well, when those messages come, it's. important to to listen, I think. >> Yeah. >> Let's take a um a quick break and when. we come back talk about. synchronicity and what's what's on the. other side? >> Okay. >> All right, we'll be right back. Well, let's lighten the mood and talk. about death. >> [laughter]. >> Um. you spent a lot of time. documenting and talking about other.

people's paranormal experiences and then. you had one of your own that fascinates. me and I think it's. the archetypal synchronistic. >> Right. >> resonance, which sounds like a mouthful, but those words are meaningful. >> Yeah. >> What is that and what happened? >> Well, it wasn't a single event. It was a. whole series. of of events and. it all started for me, as I recall, I. was traveling. I was um.

visiting Europe. and I was on my way to the city of. Cordoba, Spain. which uh happened to be the city a very. unusual city uh. because it was at one time Muslim and. and there still is a huge uh 14th. century mosque. >> Sure. >> still still there. in [clears throat] which after the. Christians took over and expelled the.

Muslims and the Jews. from Spain, they built a huge cathedral. in the middle of the mosque. >> They did that? >> And. but it's this also it was an ancient. Roman city. There still exists a a. bridge from Roman times. >> Oh, yeah? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> And there is a statue. in in the city uh of the Roman. philosopher, playwright uh Seneca and.

scholar. Seneca and I wanted to visit for that. reason. >> Why? What is it about Seneca? I don't know if. >> Yeah. >> if he's that well known. I mean, he is. to me cuz I love that part of history. Is this Is the statue you're talking. about of one man or two? >> One. >> Just Seneca? Okay. >> One one man and it doesn't look There. are other statues of Seneca that look. very different. >> And sometimes there's two men in those. >> Yeah. [clears throat]. There Well, there was the Seneca the. Elder and Seneca the Younger. >> And some are Seneca and Nero.

>> Mhm. >> Some are Seneca and Nero. >> And Nero. >> Yeah. >> Uh-huh. Well, he was Nero's tutor. and Nero's advisor and. I knew nothing about Seneca back in my. early days of the TV program. When I. did an interview with Dr. Martin. Rossman. >> Wow. >> Who was. a. hip hypnotherapist. Medical doctor, hypnotherapist. And he was going to.

demonstrate the hypnotic technique. At. that point, we did a half-hour interview. for broadcast and then we did another. hour for the DVD or not even DVD. videotape VHS market in those days. And. he So, when that session, he hypnotized. me. And he told me, "You are going to experience your inner.

healing advisor.". >> Inner healing advisor. >> That's what he said. He said, "It could. be anything. It might be a chipmunk.". >> Okay. >> "It might be some figure. >> Okay. >> It'll come to you. Just let it come, whatever.". And. I'm I'm already at that point. I've been. inducted. I'm in a. light hypnotic trance. And. I experience this a person walking. toward me wearing a toga. And I thought to myself, "Oh, good. I.

want to improve my public speaking. abilities. So, I want you to be. the famous orator the Greek orator. not Democritus, but. >> Demosthenes? >> Demosthenes. That's right. You you be. Demosthenes. And and help me with my public speaking. And. he said to me, "I'm not Demosthenes. I'm Seneca.". And.

that took me. >> Did you say, "Who?". >> Well, I remembered when I was an. undergraduate at the University of. Wisconsin in the library building. they had emblazoned in the actual in the. concrete of the building. the names of famous people from ancient. times and Seneca's name was up there so. I knew there was a famous person from. the ancient world named Seneca. I was. that much I knew.

Very little else. I think I probably. knew that. a few other. minor details. And. at that point in in my hypnotic state. silently I said to well. since you're Seneca and since you're. here what do you want me to do? >> [laughter]. >> And he said study my life. >> Oh, beautiful. >> And and then I came out of the hypnotic. state. I had this silly grin on my face.

It's all captured on video. >> And this is captured on video? >> The whole thing. >> Roman historians right now are very. excited about what you just said. >> Well. I. you know I reported to him experience. was and. then I began studying the life of Seneca. and realized what an amazing historical. figure he was. He was not only a. playwright and a philosopher.

and had scientific writings. as as well but he literally ran the. Roman Empire for five years. >> Yes, he did. >> And and it was considered I think they. called it the silver age of Rome. He was. considered a very good administrator. >> Yes, when he was tutoring Nero. >> Yeah, so here I am traveling to Seneca's. birthplace. and I get an email.

from a fellow. named um um. Engan. I'm now his first name is um he was. became the the co-author with me. >> Sure. >> [laughter]. >> And I'm stumbling over his first name, but it'll come. >> Yeah. >> Brendan Engan. >> Yes. >> Brendan Engan wrote to me out of the. blue. I. had no idea who he was. And he said, "I'm writing to you because. my girlfriend. uh. bought me a psychic reading for my.

birthday. >> [laughter]. >> And uh. and it happened to be with Kevin. Ryerson, who was a good friend of mine, a trance channeler featured by Shirley. MacLaine in her book Out on a Limb. >> Yeah. >> Uh Kevin and I were good buddies, and. uh this psychic reader told me that in a. past lifetime. I was a um good friend of Seneca's, I. think Lucretius. Seneca wrote his. epistles to Lucretius.

And. uh he said that you were Seneca in a. past life. And and so I'm reaching out to you. because maybe we were together in a past. life. And I thought, "How interesting. Here I am about to. visit the birthplace of Seneca. And. >> How could he know this? Could he know. this? >> No. No, he just knew my email. He found my email at. >> So you weren't public. You hadn't gone. public about the Seneca vision yet.

>> Well, now let me think. No, I hadn't gone public, but Kevin. Ryerson was the trance channel who gave. him the psychic reading had also uh done. readings with me. >> Okay. >> And and that's I think that's the. connection. >> That's it. But. >> I've had many readings from Kevin and. because he was a friend. And that was his thing. >> Nice to have access to that. >> Yeah. Well, as a parapsychologist I've had a lot of.

psychic friends along the way and they. helped me from time to time. They've. been very instrumental. crucial moments. But I didn't have any reason to think I. had been Seneca in a past lifetime and I. wrote back to Brendan and said, "Well, it's quite an interesting synchronicity. you would write to me about Seneca right. when I am about to visit the city where. he was born.". And that's an example. I said, "This is. all synchronistic.".

And. >> And are you talking about like Jungian. synchronicity? >> Yes. >> Just things that just. How would you describe it? He He had the. scarab story. >> Well, and and there are some Jungians. who have taken real issue with me over. my use of the term synchronicity because. I was using it in a kind of vague. generic sense like I'm on my way to see. Seneca and I get the email from you. And. I had a Jungian who wrote back and said, "No, it must be at the very precise.

second.". >> I don't I think that's debatable. >> I think so, too. But in any case I I. suggested that there's something. Jungian, something synchronistic that. Seneca is a obviously a a psychic. influence on me. It doesn't mean I was. him. And but I thought it was interesting and. Brendan and I stayed in touch and. eventually. uh other synchronicities began to occur. between Brendan and myself.

Uh for example. uh when I was doing radio interviews on. KPFA long ago. I interviewed a fellow who had written a. book called The Looking Glass God all. about Taoism, the yin-yang symbol and. and. uh and he had this book, The Looking. Glass God, and I owned it. And I must. have sold it at one point or another.

because Brandon told me. he was in a bookstore in Walnut Creek, California, and this book, as he's walking along the. aisles of the bookstore, fell on his. head. And and he opened it up, and it's The. Looking Glass God, and he saw my. signature in it that I had once owned. >> that book. >> Your book. >> Yeah. >> And you were already in touch? >> Yeah. >> Does he see this as a sign or. >> Yes. Yeah, he said he said this is this. is significant. He said we need to write.

an article. Or you need he said you need. to write an article. >> [laughter]. >> about what you just told me about the. synchronistic connections that occur and. are related to possible past life. influences of. of this sort. And I said, "Well, we can. write it together." And and we did in I. think 2007. or so, we. published a jointly written article in. the Journal of Humanistic Psychology.

called Archetypal Synchronistic. Resonance, and. in which we [clears throat] talked about. the idea that people who lived in in the. ancient past can influence us, and we. can have a whole series of. synchronicities that support that. influence. It doesn't necessarily mean. it was a past life. It was an. alternative to thinking about. reincarnation, actually. >> I thought it was very a very interesting. take, is that it's not necessarily.

reincarnation, it's just influence. >> Yeah. >> Something about. uh vibration in the universe, that. conscious something something deeper. >> And I've subsequently met other people. who have felt the same way about. different historical figures. Jean. Houston, who was a another mentor of. mine, a person I greatly admired who. said for her it was Proclus. >> Pro- Oh, that's amazing. >> Proclus who was another Neoplatonic.

philosopher, the last of the Neoplatonic. philosophers and she said, "I I would be. as a child just this phrase would come. into my head, hocus pocus, I am. Proclus.". >> I think if I have a few of those myself. I I I don't have really spoken about. them, but I think we all do. We find. ourselves sketching a name, writing a. word, saying a phrase. I think it's. coming from somewhere. >> Yeah. I think I have a similar relationship.

with William James. >> Do you? >> Well, Kevin Ryerson would maintain that. I was William James in a past life and. I've even had regressions to try and. explore that. Uh so far nothing has convinced me that. I was William James, but Walter Semkiw. who got a lot of his information from. Kevin Ryerson and wrote the book Return. of the Revolutionaries about people's. past lives that he had identified as a.

chapter in in which he describes why he. believes I was William James and I gave. him permission to do that provided he. state that I don't accept it. >> Why don't you accept it? >> Because I don't have any concrete. memories of having been William James. >> Okay, but that doesn't mean you weren't. >> No, it doesn't mean I wasn't and it just. doesn't mean I was, that's all. >> What's his argument? What's his chapter. about? >> Well, he talks about you know, how my.

career follows William James and. >> From from science to mysticism and so. forth. >> That you know, and I can see there's a. kind of logic there. I can see why I. might have been. I'll go that far and and I'm curious, you know, because he's my hero and. that's why I think I couldn't have. possibly been him because he's my hero. >> I don't know. He the establishment. attacked him. He fought back and won. There's a lot of.

similarities. >> There are similarities. >> How do you think. William James would think about you. today? >> Well, I if I asked myself about that, I. would say. he probably say that. he's definitely doing things that I. would like to do, but he's he's a more shallow person. >> That you're a more shallow person? >> Yeah. Yeah, William James was a deep. thinker. I don't purport to be.

>> I don't think you give yourself enough. credit. Um. William James famously. said there's a problem with the. scientific method where a personal. experience is just as valid. as any type of science. >> Yes, he did. >> Any objective reality. >> Yeah. >> is. fact as part of science. >> Right. And I I subscribe to that. wholeheartedly. >> You're continuing his project. >> I I guess. I would I would say that I. am. And I would say that uh.

he was a sickly man his his whole life. He was always visiting health spas. because he had stomach problems and the. like. And the one thing that I did. experience under hypnotic regression, I. began to have stomach pains and. uh and so I would come out. I didn't. want to go any further with the. regressions. And one other little piece of. information that came to me, I've never. had it validated. If you can find.

anything that validates it, then I would. regard that as evidential. Is that when. he was younger people called him Billiam. instead of William. >> I didn't know that. >> Well, I don't know if it's true. It's. just something that came to me. >> That would be interesting to find that. out. Someone would know that. >> If if there's any evidence that he was. ever called Billiam instead of William, I I would say that that would count in. favor of that I might have been William.

James or at least had access to that. piece of information somehow. >> Have you had any new regressions that. convinced you you were someone? >> No. >> None? >> No. >> Uh you had an interesting theory about. soul energy, which I kind of agree with. Is that maybe William James. maybe you are a little bit William James. and he's. he's spread out across a few people. >> Yeah, there are there are many people. who have said and including people today.

who say he speaks to them from the. afterlife even now. So, I I'm inclined. to think that we all have access to what. William James called the cosmic. reservoir of consciousness or the. Akashic records. We all have access to. all knowledge. >> So, are we all one consciousness and these. bodies are just a small expression of. the same. field? >> in favor of that perspective.

>> So, what happens when we die? And I don't I. don't mean the tunnel and the all of. that just yet. I mean at that moment. when the lights go out, what's going on. inside? >> Well, consciousness persists, but. I've experienced the total loss of. consciousness in deep sleep. It could be. like that. You might go into a a deep. unconscious state until at some point. you're awakened and maybe you're in.

another body or in another plane of. existence. Or maybe you're conscious all the way. through. George Harrison made a point of. saying he wanted to be conscious through. the death process and there's you know. that he really worked toward that so. there's. and his wife Olivia at the time said, "If you would been in the room at the. moment he died, there was such light you. could have photographed it.". >> That's I mean that's another shared.

death experience. >> Mhm. >> That um. that there's a there's a lot of. documentation for that and specifically. the light, the room changing, >> Yeah. >> seeing figures. >> Mhm. >> Um. I'm specifically thinking about Raymond. Moody's work. >> Mhm. >> who studied shared death experience for. a while and then had one with his. siblings when his mother passed away. >> I didn't know that. >> His father arrived and they all saw him. They said, "Dad's here.". They all saw it. They said the room. changed shape.

>> Yeah. >> So I think there's something to that. >> Mhm. >> You're not afraid? >> No, absolutely not. I'm I'm totally comfortable with the. idea that I'll die and I'm going to be. 80 this year so it could happen soon for. all I know and I'm uh. I'm I'm sure as I get closer there will. be trepidations. I I was in the hospital. earlier this year and was told I might. have to undergo a very dangerous. procedure and I I was nervous about it.

It turned out that they didn't need to. do it. at the end of the day but. uh you know, I'm sure I'll approach. actual death with a certain amount of. trepidation but at the moment I can say. I look forward to it. >> I don't know if Janelle would be as. optimistic but. when did you. when did that switch happen for you? We're all afraid of it. >> Yeah, it's sort of biological. >> It is and. >> survival instinct.

>> You know, I just I just wrote an episode. where I called it the a curse that we. know that we're going to die, but it can. also be a gift because you can seize the. moment. When did you stop being afraid? >> At some point. um. as I began thinking about probably while. I was writing my first book, The Roots. of Consciousness, I began to appreciate the idea. it's called um.

How does it go? Ontogeny recapitulates. phylogeny. >> I'm stumped. >> Well, it means the development of the. embryo recapitulates the entire. evolutionary history of the species. >> It kind of does. >> Yeah, we start out as a single-celled. organism of an embryo and and then we. gradually evolve the early stages of the. embryo. We begin to look a little bit. like a fish or a reptile and until we.

become fully human. And it dawned on me if I just think of. my whole body, the entire history of. evolution exists. In effect even this body, even this. physical form is the product of. a billion years of evolution. >> Yes. >> And I began to perceive of myself as as. actually a being who has been around at. least a billion years. >> You can feel that. >> Yeah.

>> There's all these stories about. famous people dying and seeing something. saying, "Oh my god." or "I can't believe. it.". >> Yeah. >> Um my brother was with my father when he. passed a few years ago and he said, "Dad. so. got up and saw something.". >> Yeah. >> And. there are stories. another episode I'm working on. of people who are near death who are. close to brain death or dementia. >> Mhm. >> that suddenly sit up. >> Yes.

>> and are perfectly terminal lucidity. >> Terminal lucidity. It happened to my. mother. >> It happened to your mother? >> Yes. >> What I don't want to get I don't want to. pry what happened. >> Well, I wasn't there at the time. My. wife Janelle was with her. in the hospital. uh. very close to her death maybe 2 weeks. before and my mother had Alzheimer's. She was out of it completely. You. couldn't have an intelligible. conversation. She was always very sweet.

I will say that and a pleasure to be. around, but she sat up with Janelle. She. was bright. She was lucid. She had a. lengthy conversation with Janelle. talking about the family and many many. other. detailed things. >> How long was the conversation? >> Maybe an hour or two. >> That's a long one. >> Yeah. >> Did she call you? >> Well, she told me afterwards. I I don't. know where I was at the time, but you.

know, I got a complete rundown. of it and um. 2 weeks later she was dead. >> What do you think is happening there? What are we seeing? Why are we lucid? >> Well, it seems to be a way of um. or or or. reinforcing. It's evidence that I would. say reinforces William James theory of. consciousness, which is that the brain. doesn't generate consciousness. The. brain functions more like a radio or.

television receiver. The signal is. coming from elsewhere. Consciousness I I. would say is is actually everywhere. >> It's uh it's like a filter. >> Yeah. >> That we're and we're filtered into these. individual consciousnesses, but. >> And at some point when the brain starts. breaking down just enough. the the larger consciousness can kind of. come through. The brain is no longer.

keeping it out because if we were in a. state of cosmic consciousness where you. have 360°. vision and you know everything. everywhere all the time, you couldn't. survive. You You couldn't pay the rent. No. Pay the mortgage or feed the family. You have We We have to filter it out. >> This answers the hard consciousness. question. This makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Um terminal lucidity happens to people. where their brains are damaged beyond. repair. >> Right.

>> There's tumors. There's no way it could. work. >> Mhm. >> Someone who's never spoken their whole. life could. get gets up and starts singing. >> Yeah. >> It's I don't think there's an. explanation for that just yet. It's the. William James is close as. >> It's as close as we can come as to my. knowledge. >> How do you um. what is your take on soul groups? Life. between lives. >> Yeah. >> I don't know if you've ever read um. Michael Newton's work. His. >> Uh Michael Newton's work is quite.

interesting. I I haven't really studied. it in in depth. I ought to. Um but what I can say is um. F W H Myers. Uh Frederick William Henry Myers who. wrote uh. the classic book on life after death in. published in 1903 posthumously called. human personality and its survival of. bodily death. It's a classic. A massive.

book incorporating all the findings. developed by the Society for Psychical. Research since it was founded in 1882. So, 20 years worth of scientific. investigation and brilliantly. put together. He maintained. that. Where Where did we start? What was your. initial. >> Soul groups. >> Soul groups. Well, okay. Thank you for.

getting me back on track. After he died, as I say, the book was published. posthumously. Some 30 years after he died, uh. he he. uh communicated. entire books from the other side through. a medium named Geraldine Cummins, who. did automatic writing. >> Oh, I've got to look into this. >> And he wrote a book. called um. He wrote two books.

through her. And um now, the title is on the tip of. my tongue. It'll come. again. And but in those books, he's describing. what the afterlife is like. >> He did He That's his? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> He's describing It's And I think of it. as one of our best descriptions because. he's the guy who spent his. adult life pioneering the study of of. the afterlife. And even before he died, he wrote that, you know, things are.

going on in the other side. They are. doing their experiments. And And then he. came back. And uh there was something. called the cross-correspondences. that the Society for Psychical Research. studied for decades, in which Myers and. others other deceased members of the. Society for Psychical Research were. coming back and proving that it was them. because what they would do.

is create very unique messages that were. poetic. Myers was a poet and a Greek. scholar, among other things, and so they. create these complex messages, but they. would deliver part of it through a. medium, let's say, in North America, part of it through a different medium in. Europe, and part of it through another. medium in India. And. all of the mediums were instructed, "Send your. peculiar messages that make no sense.

whatsoever to the Society for Psychical. Research." And they would put the. messages together and see that they. interlock with each other, and it's the. same communicator coming through. So, that was Myers was doing this, and then. some after 30 years in the afterlife. dictating entire books. >> Well, how did he What did he see over. there? How did he describe it? >> souls. That's where we were going. >> Yes. >> He said, "Yes, there are group souls,

and you you get to different levels." He. said, "We all have are part of larger. soul groups. Some of them," he said, "might have 20 members. Some of them. might have a thousand or several. thousand." That That we are. we share soul groups with. >> And soul communities that soul clicks? >> Yeah. >> Cuz. >> And Walter Semkiw, who wrote Return of. the Revolutionaries, maintained, and I think uh. most parapsychologists reject his work.

out of hand because they don't like um. past life regressions, and they don't. like mediums. Uh They like working with young. children. But um. >> Why young children? Because of the. reincarnation stories? >> Yeah, the reincarnation story is not. going to be contaminated. >> Right. >> uh if it's a young child who hasn't. learned about these things because, you know, they don't know how to read. yet or something of that sort. But an. adult who comes up and remembers a past.

life in psychotherapy and I once was a. past life therapist. I know it's a very. powerful form of therapy, but I think. on sometimes it's evidential. of a real past life, but often it is. not. In any case, once again, can you remind me where we. were? >> Soul groups. >> Soul groups. >> I I think about it because sometimes you. meet somebody and you just have a.

connection to them. >> Yeah. And Walter Semkiw maintained that. there are soul groups and that the. people who were the founding fathers of. the United States of America, John Adams. and Thomas Jefferson and the like were. members of a soul group and they come. back as and and they meet each other in. the next lifetime and he felt he was. John Adams. >> He did. >> Yes. >> Does he have a feud with whoever. Jefferson is? >> Well, he yes, as a matter of fact.

>> He does, he really? >> Well, there was another person he. identified as Thomas Jefferson and and. they knew each other and had um. some debates and arguments about it all. Yes. >> It's interesting because those two men. died on the same day. >> Yes. And as I recall, John Adams' last words. uh when he died were. "Jefferson still lives.". >> It's true. That's what he said. >> And. >> Bitter to the end. >> Well, but if it's unclear whether he was.

bitter about that he was dying cuz he. didn't know Jefferson was dying on the. same day or if he actually. saw Jefferson in the afterlife still. living. >> That's right. I hadn't considered that. >> That could be the other interpretation. It's not clear. >> Do you believe that our souls, when we. go back, that we make a a choice in that. consciousness like when we come back we. choose our body we choose what we're.

going to try to learn to bring back. >> I think we have many options whether. we're going to come back maybe which. planet we're going to come back to. or which realm of existence I think. there are other levels of reality apart. from physical reality and even within. physical reality surely there are many. other planets. and and life forms that we could. inhabit. >> So that means there's a lot of souls. If.

you're talking about you're talking. about the universe? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> I and I think there you know what we. call the universe meaning the. three-dimensional. or four-dimensional space-time that we. inhabit. is one possible level I think there are. many other levels of reality but even. within this level many many options so I. I think there are lots of choices. Some. people may never come back they'll just. move on to higher levels or different.

levels. >> So you can choose to not come back? >> I think what happens is that. you the the way people phrase it you are. going to be with your guides. Now what. that means could be just other parts of. yourself. or your larger self and and you're going. to make a you're going to have a. conversation. about it and you'll make certain. determinations like it occurred to me if. I had been William James and I was going.

to come back I might have said I'd like. to be a bit healthier. >> [laughter]. >> this time around. Right. And and I might. like to look better. >> [laughter]. >> Are you saying you're more handsome than. the than William James? >> Well maybe. >> [laughter]. >> You are? >> I I I kind of you know I I have my. vanity and I suppose. I think that I was probably and I think. he felt. I don't think he felt good about how he.

looked. I could be wrong about that, but. that's my impression. Because his father selected his wife for. him. >> Oh. >> Like he needed his father to do it. >> Right. >> Then I wasn't going to have that. happening. >> No. No, I'm just thinking that. >> But I think possibly Janelle was Alice. [snorts] James. There's there's some. some reason to think so. Walter Semkiw and Kevin Ryerson thought.

so. >> What reason? >> Well, they. one of the things. that Semkiw felt is that very often. people maintain the same basic facial. structure from lifetime to lifetime. And. you see that for example in in his work. with birthmarks. You know, that people. care have birthmarks that might be the. death wound of a previous lifetime. So. some physical things carry from lifetime.

to lifetime and I actually. think I especially if you see photos of. me in the my early days when I had a. beard, I kind of resembled William. James, but better looking. >> [laughter]. >> And I kind of imagine if I had who were. to fantasize about it that William James. would have liked that. He might say, "This time around I'll be a more shallow. person, but healthier [laughter] and. better looking and still very interested. in the things that interest me.

And intelligent enough to make some. progress. >> And a lot of those personality traits. can carry over as well. >> Yeah. >> So you do have that same I mean you're. carrying it you you're continuing his. project. >> I I think intellectually I feel very. compatible with William James, but. really he's far deeper thinker than I. am. >> Well, what do you think. why do you think you chose this path? Why did you make this decision? Because. you're very impactful. You've impacted.

millions of lives. >> I wonder about it myself. And and. because, you know, my father ran a. furniture store in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, and I imagined I'd probably. grow up and run a furniture store. >> Sure. >> And and. then somehow. uh. you know, what can I say? LSD must have had. something to do with it. Uh because I. was I you do have.

a kind of mystical experience under LSD. You begin to experience other realities. >> Can control. >> swirling around you and um you can look. at another person and and you begin to. see their face change as if you're. looking at their past lives. And all of. these things made me very curious. What's going on here? And I after having. had. in 1968 my first LSD experience, I was.

incredibly curious. uh about all of this and began exploring. mysticism and. uh my best friend as I got in in to. Berkeley was a guy who thought he could. explain how LSD worked in the brain and. how it uh. imitated the serotonin molecule and took. the place of serotonin in the nerve. synapses of the brain, but didn't do. what serotonin did, did other things. >> That's right. It's a lot of psychedelics.

are serotonin just kind of flipped. >> Yeah. So, psychedelics could be allowing us to tap. into universal consciousness? >> I think in in a way, yes. >> What did Terence McKenna think about. that? >> Well, I hate to speak for Terence. because. because he was so eloquent. >> [laughter]. >> and he could put things in into such. beautiful phrases that. that I can't do. >> I But how do you How do you feel?

>> I I think he would be in agreement. >> Is that when I hear DMT stories. >> Yeah. >> even across cultures, they're all seeing. the same entities, wood elves, all this stuff. >> Yeah. >> It sound kind of silly until you line up. all the cases together and it's it's all. pointing to one thing and that there's. that there's a field around us that we. can tap into. >> And and you know, David J. Brown wrote. the book on DMT entities. >> Mhm.

>> I interviewed him and he had an. experience. reminiscent of Ted Owens, the uh mantis. being appeared to him. >> Right. >> under LS- under DMT and he says operated. on his brain, which is the same claim. Ted Owens made. And he's told me, I have it on. video. He said there isn't a day in his life. when he doesn't think about that. experience. >> You haven't been interested in a DMT.

experience? >> I I haven't had one. I have had. ayahuasca, so I suppose Yeah, I have had. ayahuasca, but not these days people. inject DMT pure DMT. I haven't done. that. >> What did you see during your ayahuasca. journey? >> Well, now that you mentioned it, I had quite unusual experience. I It was. as if I was in ancient Egypt. and I was singing praises to the god.

Horus, that Horus is the most beautiful of. gods. And it was a very profound connection to. to Horus, who was an amazing deity. If. you If you look at the history of all. deities, Horus is in many ways you could. say the predecessor of Jesus Christ. >> could. >> Yeah. So, >> didn't you have a. a sort of a flashing image of ancient. Rome?

>> I have had that. I don't know if it was. at that occasion of ayahuasca. I think. it might have been. just I think maybe even in a. normal state of consciousness for a. split second. For just a split second, I felt like I. was in Nero's palace. >> Did you see it or did you feel it? >> It was more of a feeling and it was so. fast that it's hard to to capture it. all, but it felt real.

It felt like I was there. >> What What was the emotional feeling? I'm asking. >> Uh-huh. >> Is because. the end of Seneca's life he they he they. were he was bickering with Nero. Cuz Nero was building the big palace. then when uh. when Seneca had to kill himself. So, I'm. just wondering if you. if you appeared there and you were. annoyed. Like look at all this opulence. >> so quick. It was only simply that I was. there. I was really there.

And then it ended. >> You're so lucky. So, ancient Egypt, were. there entities or guides there during. that journey? >> I can't say that there was. It was just. a deep sense of. connection with how magnificent Horus. was as a deity. And and subsequently, I have uh. uh felt that connection with with Horus. In fact, I happen to own a sarcophagus,

a tiny little sarcophagus. about 2 3 ft. and it was used it's from ancient Egypt. it goes back to the time of Moses. and and it was a sarcophagus for a. falcon. >> Wow, where did you get that? >> In Israel and my first trip to Israel in. a little Arab shop they you know was. interested in the Antiquities and they. pulled that out of the back room and.

said look at this. It was very expensive but I. >> I bet. >> I had to have it and I subsequently had. it. looked at by archaeologists who have. told me this is the real thing. >> Did you feel any energy any emotion from. that object? >> Well, something must have. gotten me to pay many thousands of. dollars for it. >> Cuz I think there's something to that to. a residual energy with objects or. locations. >> Yeah. >> Did you visit Seneca's.

Villa his death place outside Rome? >> No. I have not is it still in in existence? >> It is it's about three it's mile marker. three on the Appian Way outside Rome. >> Oh my. >> Pretty remarkable. >> Have you been there? >> I have. >> Wow. >> Yeah, that's where he was he was killed. and. >> Oh my. >> There's so many he's a great story. >> occurred to me to. go there or to visit William James grave. either. >> Oh I would I I bet you'd feel something.

at those places. >> I might yeah. But I would always doubt myself. I think. I would say you know, you're making this. up because of the history that you have. and things that people have said. >> That's okay. That's even if you are that's okay. >> Yeah. >> To make it up. >> It would be but on the other hand I. thought you know, I'm here I'm living. this life. I don't have to revisit those. lives. >> So what was mission? What when you came. back? Your soul sent you here to to.

achieve something. Have you Have you. done it? >> I think so. I I think you know, when I. expressed to Ted Owens, when he said, "What do you want to do with this. power?" And I said, I want to be a. communicator to the public at large, the. mainstream culture about the realities. of esoteric, paranormal, mystical world. And And that's been. uh certainly for the last uh. 10, 12 years since I launched the.

YouTube channel, I I've been doing it. and and even long before that and the. radio and television work I did. That's. That's been my a career as an adult with. with some detours along the way. >> Some fun detours. >> Yeah. >> We normally end with with plugs, but. we'll link to those, but this is This is. too important. For people listening who are having. experiences who are. fear of death or things like that, do. you have any message for them? What. should they do? How should they think. about it?

>> Well, normally when I tell people about. my life, I think if there's a lesson in it to. that I can share with people, it's that if you decide that you want to. become the best version of yourself, which would be, you know, being in touch. with your. purpose, your entelechy, that the idea of being. that we are born each with a deep. purpose, and it's going to be different. for everybody.

But if you want to get in touch with. that part of yourself. and live it, the universe wants you to do that, and. the universe will help. The universe. will open doors for you so that you can. do that. >> So, just be open to the messages and. follow. >> Yeah. >> the signs? >> Yeah. That seems to be what happened for. me. And And I think. I think it's largely true. Some, but not.

all, will be able to do that. >> Anything else that you want to say or. impart before we go? >> Well, I would like to say that if if. among your viewers, if there are people. who think they'd like to dedicate their. lives to the study of the paranormal, that we've created a a new program at. the California Institute for Human. Science, where you can get. for the first time since the program at. John F. Kennedy University shut down in.

the 1980s, for the first time in the. United States, you can get a doctoral. degree or a master's degree with a. concentration or specialization. in parapsychology. And. I'm one of the directors of that. program, and I'm currently actually. teaching. >> You are? >> I'm teaching a course right now on. the practical applications of psi, which. is the word parapsychologists use for.

ESP and psychokinesis. >> Well, we'll link to all of that. We'll. put it all on screen so people can find. you. Jeffrey Mishlove, thank you so much. for coming in. This has been a joy. >> Thank you. It's been a joy for me, too. >> Bye, everybody. [snorts]. That was the great Jeffrey Mishlove. [music] 50 years of research and 1,500. interviews in parapsychology. He's a. legend. [music]. Now, here's what we know. Jeffrey's PhD. in parapsychology from UC Berkeley is. real. He earned it in 1980, the first.

and only [music] parapsychology degree. ever awarded by an American university. Skeptics tried to revoke it. >> [music]. >> Jeffrey filed a lawsuit and won, twice. The Bigelow Institute prize is also. real. [music] Robert Bigelow funded a. $500,000 award for the best scientific. essay arguing consciousness survives. death. >> [music]. >> Jeffrey's six judges voted unanimously. Now, for the bold stuff. Jeffrey told us. he reached out in a hypnagogic [music]. state in late 2022 to the consciousness.

of Ted Owens, who died in 1987. >> [music]. >> He asked Ted to keep Ukraine warm so. civilians could survive Russia's attacks. on the power grid. He says [music] a. thousand temperature records broke. across Europe in early January 2023. That is documented. Now, whether Ted. Owens caused it from wherever [music]. Ted is now, that's a different question. The Challenger warning claim. Jeffrey's. 2000 book, The PK Man, >> [music]. >> documents the Christmas Eve call in. detail. The O-ring failure that actually. or allegedly caused the Challenger to.

crash is well documented. The call is. something only Jeffrey knows. But, if. that call happened, and I believe. [music] it did, I think Jeffrey's still. carrying some guilt about it, which is. only natural. And here's what I keep coming back to, terminal lucidity. [music]. People with completely destroyed brains. from late-stage Alzheimer's sit up hours. before death and have a final, clear, fully present conversation. >> [music]. >> Jeffrey's mother did it. As sharp as. she'd ever been, she talked to his wife.

2 weeks before she died for about 2. hours. This is a real phenomenon, and. nobody has a good explanation for it. William James argued in 1898 that. [music] the brain doesn't generate. consciousness, it filters it. Like a. radio receives a signal it didn't. [music] produce. Terminal lucidity looks. a lot like the filter breaking down just. before it goes dark. Jeffrey Mishlove is the most credible. living archivist of 50 years [music] of. paranormal research, full stop. He knew. the players, Targ, Puthoff, Vallee,

Owens, McKenna, Monroe, [music]. everyone. Whatever you make of his. claims, he's a primary source for a part. of science that the mainstream [music]. would like to ignore. And when the. mainstream pushes back on something, it's worth taking seriously. Jeffries full archive [music] is at New. Thinking Allowed on YouTube. His book on. Ted Owens is the PK Man on Amazon and. the Bigelow essay is free. Search. Bigelow Institute Consciousness [music]. Studies and you'll find it. Now on the. channel I've covered SRI and Project. Stargate in a bunch of episodes as well. as [music] the afterlife in the episode.

about the skull experiments. Links will. be down below. Until next time, be safe, be kind and know that you are. appreciated. [music]. >> [music]. >> Oh, oh, oh, yeah. >> [music]. >> I played Bilali. as an Area 51 a secret code inside the.

Bible said [music] I would. I love my UFOs and paranormal fun as. well as music [music] songs ain't. written like I should. But then another conspiracy theory. becomes [music]. the truth my friends. and it never ends. No, it never ends. >> [music].

>> I fear the crack head I got stuck inside. Mel's [music] hole with them kale chips. I'll be on my. way to a way. Did Stanley [music] Kubrick fake the. moon landing alone on a film set? Oh, were the shadow [music] people there? The Roswell aliens killed off the. smiling man I'm told. >> [music]. >> and his name was cold. And I can't believe.

I'm dancing with the Feds, the head of the Feds. >> [music]. >> on Thursday nights with Agent. Mulder and the wild balls on repeat all. through the night. All I ever wanted [music] was to just. hear the truth, so the wild balls on. repeat. all through the night. >> [music].

[music]. >> The Mothman [music] sightings and the. solar storms still come to a god the. secret city underground. >> [music]. >> Mysterious number stations, planets and. both Project Stargate and [music] what. the dark watchers found. We're in a simulation, don't you worry.

though. The black knight satellite is told. Oh, I can't believe. I'm [music] dancing with the beast. Hexadecimal Thursday nights with AJ, and the wild balls on repeat. >> [music]. >> all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the. [music] truth, so the wild balls on. repeat all through the night. Hexadecimal Thursday nights [music] with.

AJ, and the wild balls on repeat. all through the night. >> [singing]. >> All I ever [music] wanted was to just. hear the truth, so the wild balls on. repeat all through the night. >> [music]. >> Give me love. today.

Yeah, give me love. to. >> [music]. >> on the dance floor. because she is a camel. and camels love to. >> [music]. >> dance when the feeling is right. all the wasting. time. Gertie loved to dance. >> [music]. >> Gertie loved to dance. >> [music]. [bell].