The Basement: Danny Goler | The Laser Experiment and the Code Inside

Today I'm talking with Danny Gooler. A. few years ago, Danny was on DMT when a. being that looked like a frog appeared. in his room and taught him guitar chords. he didn't know how to play. That's when. he became sure DMT beings are real. >> The Anunnaki engineered the human race. and built the pyramids. Now they've been. reassigned to remote guitar lessons. What's next? Conversational Portuguese. Neil point. >> So he spent years trying to prove it. Eventually, he shined a cheap red laser. at the wall and saw symbols.

>> A red laser reveals the source code of. reality. Every cat on Earth has been. chasing that dot for decades. It turns. out the vicious little hell beasts were. reading human. We got to stop him. We. could be setting up the planet of cats. Damn you. Damn you to hell. He calls it. the code of reality. Now thousands of. strangers have tried it and see in the. same code. Today we're covering whether. reality is a simulation, his cosmology, and how free will might really work.

>> Uh, if this is a simulation, I'd like to. lodge complaint. Uh, the graphics on my. fishbowl haven't gotten a single update. since I moved in. >> Oh, complaints go in the circular file. And the console, a holographic control. panel that opens up in his living room. or any room every time he smokes DMT. And other people have seen this console. It's wild. This conversation gets deep, probably too deep for me. But after we. talk, I'll come back. I'll break down.

what I can. I'll verify what I can. And. I'll also tell you what I couldn't. verify. Let's go down to the basement. [music]. >> Danny Gooler, welcome to the basement. >> Thank you so much for having me. It's an. honor. >> Um, boy, I don't know where to begin. Actually, I do, but I have a lot of. questions for you. I'm excited that. you're here. Um, first, what is it like when you're.

on national television in American Ninja. Warrior and you're jumping for the. monkey peg and you and you don't land. it? What is that? What's going through. your mind? >> Oh, honestly, that one I didn't feel bad. at all because uh that year for some. weird reason that first obstacle where. you spin with the thing uh it took out. most veterans. So I I basically I was. one of the finalists. I actually came to. Vegas that year. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So but the funny thing is that. later.

uh I I spoke to some climbers and I had. no idea. I didn't even train for this. thing and they told me, "Dude, you you. need to lock your elbows." And I had no. idea. And apparently, you know, locking. your elbows is the secret, but I was. just hanging for my dear life from the. beginning. So I was, if you look at that. footage, I was holding to like could. hold no more. Like my fingers were still. holding as I was falling. Uh, and the. the one thing that is a little. disappointing in that is because the. next obstacle was the last one, which. was the warped wall, which for me is. back then a parkour practitioner for.

years. I could do it in my sleep, like. with my eyes closed. I could just climb. it just by stepping up without even. running. But I I was still one of the. finalists, which was fun. So yeah, the. Ninja Warrior was fun. I did a couple of. years. >> You did a couple of years. >> Yeah. Uh so how do you go from um actor. parkour free running filmmaker to. exploring reality? How I mean I took a. lot of detours in life. Let's just call. it that. Uh I think I was always it.

sounds very uh loaded but I think I I. think I was born to be a physicist. probably and I just never really. completed school. Uh but the way that I. think and everything that I fold into my. framework of the world is I'm. approaching everything in terms of what. we can know and to what degree which is. a very kind of like physicist way of. thinking about it. And obviously I'm not. placing myself in the same category cuz. what is required to actually be a. physicist is way more than just an.

attitude. It's also sitting your ass. down for 8 years and knowing things. beyond you know. Um but uh so it's not. really that weird that I found myself in. this found myself in this position to. me. Uh but everything I did in Hollywood. was more like let's try it. Like I. everything I did in my life I did it. that way. The day before I moved to LA. from Indiana by the way. Um. I was supposed to go to New York and the. last second I just changed my mind. I. was like let's go to LA. I've never been.

there. And that's how and I stayed there. for 15 years basically. So everything I. did was kind of like when it felt right, I just kind of went for it. Um, and you. know, I've done I was still a very small. fish in how it I didn't do anything like. on a major stage. I I I rub shoulders. with people that are very very. successful. Um, but it became very clear. to me that that whole world there's. glass ceilings that I don't like because. I saw like we're not going to mention.

names when I I met some like actual. A-listers. and I saw how they have to answer to. other people. I mean, it's still very impressive to. get to where on that level, >> sure. But it was very clear to me. they're not calling the shots and. there's there's always like this like. kind of like there's only so far you can. go. I don't know why it kind of turned. me off from that whole world. So, I I. you know, I just kind of started. exploring other things. And as fate. would have it, right around that time, I.

kind of started stumbling into these. ideas that eventually led me to what I'm. known for today. I it's I totally agree. about Hollywood is the A-listers in. order to make it to that level and I. tell people this you have to have a. certain type of type A cutthroat kind of. mentality which I didn't have when I was. there and there are you're in glass. boxes everywhere constantly answer. answering to people agents and managers. and that's why this medium is so. exciting is because we can just do it.

ourselves now we don't need anybody. >> yeah yeah it's the true freedom and I. think people should exploit more to be. honest. >> Totally agree. >> Yeah. >> Um, here's something that surprised me. Here's the thing about Bitcoin that took. me a while to actually [music] get. Owning it on some app doesn't mean much. if you can't really access it. Depending. on where you buy it, withdrawing your. Bitcoin isn't always as straightforward. as people expect. You end up waiting. around, jumping through hoops, wondering. whether you really have control over it. Cash App's not like that. When you buy. Bitcoin on Cash App, they hold real.

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forget this part. Send at least $5 to a. friend in the first two weeks. Terms. apply. Cash App is a financial services. platform, not a bank. Banking services. provided by Cash Apps bank partners. [music]. Bitcoin services provided by Block Inc. brand. For additional information, see. the Bitcoin disclosures at. cash.app/legal/mpodcast. I loved it. in in in 2017, 3 years. before the laser, you published. contemplations of of meaning. >> Wow. You went digging. This was just. like a tiny [laughter] thing that I.

wrote for uh almost Yeah. It was for. Steam, right? Was Yeah. Yeah. I remember. now. >> Yeah. I mean, what resonated with me in. that essay um which people can go find. It's it's it's a quick read. is how you described creativity as a. creative person. and how you described. it as rediscovering something. that you're not really creating like it. was always there and that kind of. resonated with me. Is that how you you. feel? I think we're Yeah, I think we're.

coming back to remembrance. And one time we uh me and my now wife, we went hiking in the Rockies and we. throughout the whole hike uh we were. thinking about we're basically imagining. ourselves in real time as God. remembering what it was like when God. still, you know, was like all these like. different paths that led to it. basically. And I was like, what if it's. actually what's happening? Like we are. one of these memories that God has of.

whatever reality is. And it it put a. different emphasis on everything. Everything was more shiny. Everything. was more meaningful and deep. Uh and. also I think our connection grew from. that from that interaction. We just. started dating back then. So I think. there's something to that. I think that. ultimately reality rediscovers itself. But on the other hand, I'm I'm I'm. totally on board. And I also like the. idea that maybe the the cutting edge of.

what is possible in the universe is as a. surprise to it as it is to the node that. registers that experience like. ourselves. That that's a pretty cool. thought as well. Like if you had a novel. thought, what if the universe never. thought of it either? Like it thought it. through you. There's some there's a deep. connection there as well. >> There is that I I hadn't considered. that. That's really interesting. I don't. know if you know Eric Warro's work, but. he's he's very influential on me. Um I. recommend Time Loops is a great book.

You you'd love you'd love this guy. >> And he talks about creativity as your. future self sending memories essentially. back through time that you're. premembering. this creativity. >> That's amazing. Yeah. There's something. about there's something about as as as a. creative person yourself, you that's. that's why it resonates. I feel like cuz. the experience of coming up with these. creative things is very unique and it's. not like anything else. It has a feeling. attached to it that that when you have.

it, you know it, but it's very hard to. put your finger on it because it has. this like sense of novelty which is you. know if you want we can always get into. it in the conversation but like that. that to me actually is what separates. what AIs are doing and what we're doing. to my mind actually what we do is that. that's the central point. So, but it. will always require this kind of an. agent like ourselves to have this first. initial creative moment and then you can.

use AIS to actually move it way faster. along the chain of you know does it hold. water? Does it result in some kind of an. automation or something like what. results it can bring in the world. So. you can accelerate that process, but. that first initial creative moment, there's something very unique about it. because I do think it comes from some. kind of a eternal soup of of everything. basically. >> Now I have to go off off script. >> I have to go off [laughter] script. because I really like that. Um, so AI at. predictive models, LLM as they stand now. really can't be creative because they're.

trained on stuff that's already been. invented. So it's nothing new under the. sun. Ecclesiastes nine. Do you think AI. will get to the point where it can be. creative? And if they can, does it is it. sensient? >> I don't think so, but I'm willing to be. wrong about it. So, there's a this. famous uh moment between David Deutsche. and Sam Alman when he asks Deutsch about. this conviction that he has, which is. along the lines of what you just voiced, and I I belong to the same camp. So, he. basically Sam asked him, would you be.

surprised? Would you be willing to. concede? I think he said that if it. comes up with some kind of a theoretical. framework that we really haven't. considered before, will it convince you. that it can? And Deutsch conceded, yeah, of course. So, I'm in the same camp. If. it does something like that, I'm willing. to be wrong about it. But my my. intuition is that which which is part of. a much deeper awareness that I came to, which is that we are that AGI. So, this. is what this is. This simulation is the. alignment happening. So, we're being.

aligned basically. And these AIs, they. basically internal tools your. reflections of what's possible for us. So you can ask it to just answer your. emails, but you're missing the point. You you can use it to interact with the. with the infinite tapestries of meaning. within you faster and in a way that. builds a much more coherent picture as a. whole. So you can, you know, if if you. if you come up with the right questions, you can actually get to places with it. that you couldn't have possibly come.

without it because this you simply don't. have the you don't have the capacity, right? But because it is just as you. very correctly said, I think uh it is. just the totality of everything that. humans currently know. >> You now at your disposal in addition to. your thought and ideation, you have. everything that humans know. You just. have to know where to look so to speak. Right. Right. >> Yeah. So that to me is the exciting part. >> with the full admission that if we. misuse it and just keep doing it like a.

do this for me, do that for me then yeah. then you're going to get dumber like you. actually don't but that will be the. indicator of what you are. So like. because it is the perfect mirror for us. People always said, "Oh, if I can't just. get that genie in a bottle." Right here. it is. That's literally the genie in the. bottle. anything you want, anything. But. you got to the final frontier is your. imagination. And most people don't. realize that if you get card launch to.

do anything, that's actually the hardest. position to find yourself in. >> Sure. What question to ask the genie is. hard. >> Yeah. Some limitations is actually nice. When somebody gives you some. prerequisites of the game, it's actually. very relieving and people don't realize. it. It's uh I've been uh I've voiced it. a few times recently, but I I think it's. a really good It was It was kind of. mind-blowing to me like the illustration. was so simple. It was when Jordan. Peterson was on Joe Rogan and he. demonstrated it to him in real time. He. basically told Joe, "Your turn." And.

obviously Joe froze, so obviously he was. playing a bit of a stick, but it was. effective. He said, "Your turn." And. then Joe just looked at him like, "Why. are we what are we doing? This is. stupid." Right? Uh he didn't say. anything, but that was his face. And. then he's like, "What? Okay, what? What?" Like, "Okay, just tell me.". Basically, Joe says, "Okay, I got it. Just tell me the thing." And then Jordan. goes, "Well, it's interesting. I just. allowed you to play the infinite game. Your turn." And yet, the first thing. your brain is doing is looking for the.

rules. You You want me to tell you what. are we doing, right? So, he said, "The number of rules for ultimate. freedom is not zero.". I thought it was very profound. And I. think there's something there. So it's. almost like it's trying to teach us how. to be less and less constrained. constrained by different factors and. still come up with something creative to. do next. That's really what is being. tested here, I think. >> Does this tie into your your two game.

theory about the puzzle versus the. finite versus the infinite? >> The the finite versus the infinite, the. collaborative versus the competitive. Yeah, they're basically the same thing. So like if you it expresses itself. So. the infinite has to be expressed in. games that can survive for longer. periods of time. And my. proposition is that the competitive game. is awesome. It's very energizing but. it's energizing in small bursts. >> That's the finite game.

>> Exactly. You are it within a a a closed. set that game makes sense. within an. open set, that game stops making sense. because you have to rely because part of. the first game, the the competitive. game, part of it sometimes ag part of. the game is trying to eliminate other. agents and just throw them off the. board. You can't trust that for. thousands of years. >> No. >> But if you're part of a species that is. energized and is excited by the.

collaborative prospect just for the sake. of that, just like, oh my god, I'm going. to show up this morning. I'm going to. work with these amazing people. we're. going to build this insane structure in. space or go to another planet. Yeah, it's going to take 2,000 years, but. we're working towards it, right? So that. if that's the attitude that is that is. pumping through the veins of a. civilization of that kind, then all of a. sudden you can trust the game and you. can trust it indefinitely. And I also. think this is why these concepts of. alignment have to include that part. which is why kind of you know ethics and.

all of these kind of like the ten. commandments like just the moral. framework is so important because the. way we're trying to solve the alignment. problem currently in AI research is that. we're basically trying to say I call it. infinite um uh ethical whack-a-ole. >> Well let me slow you down the alignment. problem just define that for the. audience. >> Yeah. So, so in AI research there's. something called the alignment problem. which is basically how do you make sure. that Claude or Chad Gap don't just. squash us when they become Skynet. Right. Right. >> Um.

>> and then the way they're trying to go. about it is that ethical whackamo I'm. mentioning which is like you just you. try to target a specific situation. uh the reason it's not sustainable and. not realistic to solve that way because. just like with the genie in a bottle if. you solve this thing three other things. that you didn't foresee because of it. will pop up and that will be a problem. right the reality of it is that in an. infinite universe for all intents and. purposes you have infinite kinds of. scenarios that can arise and you can't. possibly predict all of them so the only.

thing you can rely on is you need to. create some kind of a framework or a. system or a simulation. that trains good people because the. definition of a good person is someone. who to the best of their ability. considers more than just themselves in. that particular situation. They just. think and the extent to which they. include more and more than just their. own agency. They would I would define. them as better and better people, right? Because you can trust that kind of. attitude. What you're essentially asking.

isn't like how can I think of all the. possible scenarios that can go wrong and. solve them in advance? That's. impossible. Mhm. >> How do you create an agent that cares. enough to actually be an awareness of. how these things can go wrong and then. try and steer the other way, right? Not. just for themselves, but for others. >> Everyone's watching the economy and. waiting for things to [music] stabilize. Here's the problem. They've been saying. that for years. 39 trillion in debt, another trillion added every few weeks, and your dollar is quietly losing ground.

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That's golden metals.com/thefiles. or call 8889499172. for [music] your 100% free info kit. So I think that's essentially the kind. of simulation we're in and and all of a. sudden all of these you know uh the I. guess religious and spiritual ideas all. of a sudden make sense like yeah like if. you don't pass that alignment problem. you don't become you don't reformulate. yourself as the whole we're all one and. all that stuff and you don't actually.

get to play the bigger game and there's. stages to this like even within our. universe I think that the reason that. the distances between stars are so. enormous. is exactly for this reason that even. before you get to play in some. multi-dimensional game or whatever even. just in our physical universe is like. here's all this real estate that you can. see how do you get there and right now. we're only thinking about it in terms of. technical problems what I don't think we. realize that in order to actually solve. that you can't just solve the technical.

problem you also have to solve the. interpersonal problem because that would. allow you to step into the collaborative. game but not in a performative sappy. kind of way but in a real way and then. all of a sudden the kinds of. technologies required to do that would. probably be a piece of cake cuz even the. ideation would be collaborative y. >> and I think that's when the mind this is. where all this kind of unification goes. but you can't get there unless you're. willing to unify if you're acting out of. fear out of lack again all of these like. very kind of like chewed up spiritual.

concepts that float around now but. they're true like if if you don't get. there you simply don't get to play that. bigger game. >> totally get it Um, and I think I think. AI is going to help us with that. And. uh, a little bit later I want to talk to. you about uh your your thoughts and. theories on cosmology. Before we get. there, um, you're born in Moscow, raised in Israel, served in the. military. >> Mhm. >> Then LA. We're thinking about New York,

>> Indiana, then LA. >> Ind Indiana. LA. So when someone asks. you where you're from, what do you say? America. There's there's actually never. It's weird because I never felt like I. belonged and I never really felt a sense. of home or even the feeling of just like. being a part of anything. Uh I wasn't. like a I definitely had issues with. authority, but it wasn't to an extent of. like, you know, rebellion, you know, on. on like very extreme levels. I did get. in trouble with the law a little bit. when I was younger, for sure, but like. it wasn't like on, you know, on like.

crazy levels. But America was the first. place ever. Well, I remember when I. became an actual citizen, when I. actually became an American and got. naturalized, I I don't remember the last. time I felt so much elation. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so it is a little uh. painful for me to watch how many. Americans uh don't like this country. because maybe because I had to make an. effort to be here. Uh there's nothing. that I'm more proud to be a part of and. more proud to call myself than an.

American, which is something that is not. very it's not trending right now, but I. but that that's a that's a real feeling. in me. So. >> it's trending. It's trending with me. Um. I didn't expect you to say that. >> Yeah. >> I I I thought we were going to go back. I thought you were going to say Israel. That's really nice that you consider. yourself an American. I'd love to. >> No, I sorry I'm cutting you off. That. that's important for me to say. So like. obvious for the obvious reasons with. everything that's going on right now, it's kind of you know it's very painful.

to watch because of the amount of lies. that I see being propagated online. >> Yep. >> On but for fairness there's a reason why. I left Israel. It wasn't the reason that. most people would that hate Israel. currently think that it is because it. isn't almost none of those things. But. there is some cultural things that I'm I. don't jive with. Like there's just it. just I don't feel like I belong to that. kind of way of seeing things. Can you. give an example without. >> Yeah, people people are definitely very. rude very often. Um there's this kind of.

like uh. >> bravado that you can say that is arising. from the stress of the situation of. being in that in that position. >> That makes sense. >> Which I can understand. >> Sure. >> Um. >> you're always on edge. >> Always on edge. um in actually it's it's. it's such a difficult thing to outline. because you h you kind of have to be. there to understand it. There's nuances. there but there is a lot of uh. aggression towards one another but the. and this is where it kind of like gets.

very dicey because the aggression the. aggression is not of the bloodthirsty. kind that people kind of imagine, right? It's like a very kind of like. interpersonal. low-key thing that does can get a lot. like on a personal level and at the same. time somehow the reverence for life and. helping each other and helping even. people that are you know you sometimes. consider enemies is unparalleled like. literally it doesn't exist anywhere else. in the world and that's a very difficult. thing to outline so I usually stay away.

from this part of the conversation. because I see that the emotional charge. around it is just too great for people. to be able to observe any real. information about it. Um true. >> the what? >> That's true. >> Yeah. So, but for me, I'm I'm, you know, I'm hopeful about the world because I do. think that. >> ultimately the only thing we can do is. the best from where we're sitting right. now. So, me worrying about like what is. the ultimate state of affairs, it it's. kind of like worthless because there's. nothing I can do about certain things.

But in the little pockets that I do. occupy in my day-to-day, I try to do my. best to, you know, promote the kind of. behavior that I would love to see in. others. And I do everything I can that. none of it is performative. That that's. really important. Very often people act. a certain way without being that way. And I think that is one of the more. corrosive uh parts of how we do things. today because online everything is so. you know inviting the performance part.

of it. >> Yep. >> But I think that there is a way to drop. more into the present moment and the. body and the one-on-one to see what it. actually is like to just truly care. about the immediate experience with. another human. >> So let me ask you cuz in uh researching. your work I see duality in you and. tension everywhere. Um, in a good way. In a good way. >> No, I don't. >> In a good way. So, when you talk about. performance, you're an actor, filmmaker, all of that.

>> Do you ever find yourself, >> this is not a snarky question because. I'm also an actor. >> Do you ever find yourself in a. performance and you have to kind of. >> check yourself and and and like dial it. back? >> No, not anymore. >> Not anymore. But you used to. Uh I think. to the to any degree that what the thing. is that. so the thing that needs to be outlined. here is that everybody does it to. certain degrees they're not aware of yes. and only when you do become aware of it.

became clear to do that you were. performing. >> so to the extent that I can observe in. myself um and medit meditation had a big. part of it. >> is because it's easier to actually you. practice how to actually notice yourself. to deeper and deeper degrees um there's. a certain flow. flow state that is associated with. actually just being here truly. >> and willing to air out your thoughts. truthfully in that moment even if it. comes off the wrong way. And the more.

you practice to do that and trust it, it. doesn't always go well by the way, but. the more you do that and you realize, oh, I was not demolished by this, the. easier it is to do. And that's the tool. that I've I've found to that is the most. effective. So very often I would like. come up with a um let me think of if if. I can think of an example. Well here's. the thing like for example it it it that. example is a little um broad but it but. everybody can associate with this. Very. often in a conversation it all of a. sudden become becomes clear to you like.

what how you can potentially either omit. certain information or just steer the. conversation in your favor. And even not. even in ways that are conniving or like. it's just like I don't have to go there. and I just won't. But at the same time, you know that maybe the other person. would actually benefit from going there. If I assessed it inside of myself. before, I wouldn't enter that part because why. do I need to bother right now? I will. >> Now you will. >> Yeah. If I feel like it truly is and I.

don't necessarily want to spend the. energy or the time, obviously I have to. assess would I have that energy. But if. I feel that truly the person would. benefit from this, even though I have no. idea how we're going to navigate this, what I'm going to do is I'm just going. to burn the boats. I'm just going to say. it right away before I have the time to. like assess like should we, should we. not, I will just say it. And then. there's you're here now. Now you have to. talk about it. And then so things like. this and then and then eventually over. time it became clear to me what is the. the truly kind of beneficial thing in a.

lot of these instances. So to the extent. that I can muster in that moment I am. trying to be a good person in the same. definition I used before trying to. consider more than just myself in that. moment but truly like and I don't even. care if the person will understand that. that's what's happening. I know that I. know that that's what I was doing. Uh, and then if it goes in the wrong. direction, then you learn from that and. you say, "Oh, interesting. Okay, well, maybe not always bringing everything. else like and then you just keep dialing. it in." But it it is it it does imply.

more. more emotional pain sometimes than you. necessarily have to go through. >> Well, yeah. What would what would. interactions be like if everyone did. this? >> I think a lot better. >> You do? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I We're not talking. about just like saying the thing. It it. has to also come with an understanding. of what the person is. It it takes some. practice. People who say things like, well, I'm just being real. It's like, well, no, because the other part of. being real is also considering trying to.

discern the person the person's. readiness to hear certain things. And if. you if you've done none of the work to. try and figure it out, it's not their. job to all of a sudden to all of a. sudden handle certain levels of. understanding if they never even thought. about that. Now, you just shattered. their world, right? So like you did you. did you didn't do any service for no one. like you you just felt like it was for. you. You wanted to feel a certain way. >> That's right. >> And this is and this is why it's such a. it's such a difficult So this it's it's. a very difficult ground to to walk on. because the truth of it is truly just in.

the moment which sounds you know super. kind of cheesy but but it's true. Like. it it really is just in that moment and. in no other moment. like the truth about. whatever this exact moment would look. like with a slightly different person in. a slightly different time can be. radically different. >> Sure. >> Because of whatever exactly in that. moment, not just, you know, in the. grander scheme of things. >> So, it is I I would consider it to some. degree an art. >> Uh, and I think some people are. naturally better at it than others. I.

was definitely not good at it. I I got I. think I had some disabilities of of I. don't know if disability is the right. word, but I I had some tilt to my. cognition in such a way that I would I. would constantly step on someone's toes. without realizing it. Something would go. wrong in a social setting and I wouldn't. understand what just happened. >> I'm not good at this. >> Yeah. >> I'm not I'm not good at this. >> Yeah. And then I learned that that if I. if I can just put my honest best foot. forward, somehow things started working. differently and I noticed it. I noticed.

like people relax. I was like, "Ooh, why. did they relax? What happened?" I think. there's something very deep inside of us. that recognizes predatorial attitudes. And sometimes people don't even realize. that they carry predatorial attitudes. So for example, I had a case where I. grew up and I had a pretty like you know. childhood was not very it was fine like. I wasn't like you know there was. definitely some stuff that people would. nowadays call like things reasons for. trauma but nothing on the level of like.

your parents being addicted to heroin or. anything like that but there's. definitely a lot of pain that came from. some things in the childhood that then. later I saw were translating to a very. aggressive attitude towards others which. was just a defense mechanism cuz I. realized is the second you go violent, people respect and then they just back. off. Right? >> So then that was my safe space. And then. one day a really good friend of mine who. I've now known for 30 years, he pulled. me to the side one time because we had. to do we were we were working in the. same company and he basically pulled me.

aside and he said, "Hey man, I I just I. have to bring it to your attention. When. you talk to people, they're literally. afraid of you." And that hurt me so. deeply because that's the it's such an. isolating especially when you're not. trying to be if you're trying to be a. mobster that's a great thing if somebody. tells you that right it's like oh good. but I was so I was trying to connect so. imagine you trying your best to connect. with people and what comes out of it. because I was basically talking to them. like that you know and it was like this.

very kind of like just I'm watching you. it was a lot of that right but for me it. was I didn't feel like I was doing that. so imagine what a shock that was to hear. You must have really trusted him to make. I mean you made a life change there. >> Yeah. I mean it was it was very hurtful. It was very painful but he did me a huge. solid and I and I realized oh wow okay. so the and and it was it was right. before I really entered any real serious. spiritual seeking. Back then it was very. clear to me that any spiritual attempt. is just like it's for the weak. You know.

it's just people just they they they. can't handle the finality of life. All. that jazz right? Um. and then I that's right before I started. I I I think the first entry was actually. echartole. It was right before kind of. like I read uh a new earth and then I. was like wow this actually makes a lot. of sense like in a very simple way right. and then I started looking there and. then. >> I remember you telling a story somewhere. where uh you were gifted an acro book. and you were kind of annoyed by it. >> Yeah. >> Like it's this is nonsense. It was a.

woman I was seeing. Um, and you know, a. pretty girl gifts you something, you. take it. But I was begrudgingly took it. And I just threw it on the, you know, I. was like, "Okay, >> I felt the same way about Tully until I. read it and I was like, >> "Holy. >> Holy shit." Yeah, >> he's right. It's all. >> And then I went on a on a crazy ride. finding out who he was because it's so. important for me who's speaking the. words. You can say so much about the. person which by the way speaking about. all the stuff that not specifically but.

like really anything in the world that. people are watching. I know it's really. hard to kind of follow the big events. Don't don't follow the people. Watch the. people. You can say so much. You can see. so much by the micro expressions of the. people involved in saying the thing. And. you can still stray. You can still have. like a person who's actually really. well-intentioned and they just they they. just don't know how to express. themselves well. But for the most part, you can see you can see if there's like. an actual attempt to harm. There's a.

there's a there's a thing there. If you. look closely, you can see that. And it's. hard to not project. But anyways, I. digress. That that that that part was so. key for me when I was watching Echart. because after I read the book, I was. like, "Okay, hold on. Let me find out.". I started watching interviews with him. and I mean it's I mean Echart is just. like is like a holy person. You know. what I mean? It's like you you watch. that person, he's like, "Oh, come on.". Like this is ridiculous. >> His audio books are amazing. >> Yeah. So there's this calm and peace and. love and you can feel it. So I was like, "Oh my god, this is" and and I had a.

struggle for for years. I was like, >> "Yeah, but I want. >> I want the like I want I want nice. things. I want pretty girls. I want like. I want that." And Exactly. But but back. then it was. >> I was in my 20s. I was still kind of. like finding my you know how what does. that mean? If you're spiritual it means. you can't do this or you can't do that. And over time, you start to understand, of course, that's totally okay. And you. and you just and you just find your. rhythm. >> What what message do you think she was. trying to send to you? She was trying to.

tell you something by giving you that. book. >> I think she was influenced by his first. book and she gifted me the second. I. think that's what happened. But maybe, who knows? Yeah. Like I never, you know, it's funny. Till this day, I never. thought about that what you just asked. me, which is super interesting. Huh. I. can probably reach out and ask. That's. interesting. >> She Yeah, she did you a great service. >> Yeah. Um, I want to know about. conversations around the kitchen table. with your grandfather's a physicist. Your grandmother's was she was a chemist. and then found spirituality. >> Uh, yeah, she was a a Christian, but I.

always say she wasn't one of these like. uh zealous Christians. She was a very. spiritual Christian. Mhm. >> She was one of these people that I find. found out only later through. conversation with my mom that she she. had these like weird abilities like she. could, you know, somebody would come. with this cyst and she would like put. her hand above it and it would like go. away in a couple of days, things like. this. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what my mom. told me. So yeah. Um. but yeah, basically I was raised by them. because when I was born, my mom was.

still going to school. and uh my grandfather started describing. to me like black holes and these things. since I was very little and I don't know. who came what came first my. predispensation to imagine the ed the. edges of the universe all the time or. him telling me things about it or the. other way around but it was very like. that just image like if we go all the. way to the edge of the universe. Okay, what's what's outside of that? Like what. is that? I I literally projected myself.

there almost physically all the time. I. was just like, okay, we can crack it. Like [laughter] if you step outside, what do I see? It's like, you know, it's. like, what is that? What does outside. mean? So um these ideas were I I. couldn't I could never find any. trajectory of thought that was more. worth worth of my attention like never. and I think that's the thing that. followed me throughout my life with all. my experiments and doing things and I.

just I think I was hungry to understand. what life has to offer when I found. psychedelics obviously it was a big. revelation because I realized oh okay so. you can actually change like quite. substantially. Uh but then this is why I think I tried. so many different things in life to see. what what lands and what it actually. feels like to experience life through. that lens. I occupied very different. philosophical positions in terms of how. much I'm convinced that that's what it. is. And it's only when you go through. these levels of convictions that you.

truly understand what it's like to hold. that position because there's everything. changes. Your lens, your mannerisms, the. way you talk to people, all of it. It's. all well Sterence McKenna used to say. it's all operating systems and it's. completely true like you can you can now. that I'm older when you find this. stability inside you can actually just. interplay and you can just change them. without identifying with any of them. So. it's actually relatively easy for me to. understand how people kind of come at. the world from this other position. And. I think a big proportion of that was.

actually even though it sounds like two. completely different worlds and they. have nothing to do with one another, physics and human experience, but to me. it was clear that whatever that is had. to have some deep connection to how it's. how it's possible to experience it. I. didn't have, you know, the granularity. in terms of like is it the same thing or. something like that, but it it was very. clear to me that there's like a strong. relationship there. >> Sure. philosophy and physics are are. really connected. >> Yeah. And and some physicists would.

disagree with this, which I think is. just egregious. It's egregious that they. would. It's just, you know, um I don't. know if you're familiar with the toe. podcast, the theories do everything. podcast with Kurt Jungle. Phenomenal. And I think he put the right emphasis on. it when he says like. >> physicists can't help but being informed. by philosophy all the time. They just. don't realize it. >> Absolutely true. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely true. Um, interesting that you said that you. wanted to solve what was outside the. universe. Talk a little bit about.

when you were a UFO kid and you went. down the Bob Lazar rabbit hole and your. disillusionment with disclosure. >> As as a tiny side note that you know my. whole stick with 42, right? That it. follows me everywhere. The number 42. Guide to the Galaxy. >> Yes. >> You can't see it from your angle. probably in the same way. Right in this. camera. Are you kidding me? >> No. >> Tilt your head to the right? No. No. To. the right. Like here. >> Go like this. Do you see the handle of.

the camera? >> Yes. >> Under the handle. Keep going right with. your head. >> Oh my goodness. It's 42. >> It's framed and there's nothing. Look, I'll take a picture of it. >> Oh my god. It's on my list. [laughter]. It's on my list. That look Oh my god. It's d Look at this. I'll show you. exactly how it appears for me. Look at. this. >> [laughter]. >> Wow. >> Um, [laughter]. synchronicities are a real thing. >> Yeah. It never stops. >> Last week I was I was having.

synchronicities for like two or three. straight days. So many that even my wife. was nervous. I'm like, look, the. simulation is busy right now. Things. [laughter] are happening. I said, I feel. it. Something's going on. >> You I'm sorry I'm taking you on so many. side tangents. You know what happened to. me when I landed here yesterday? >> What? I get in the car in the Uber from. the airport and all of a sudden the. theme not the thing the opening music of. the Matrix starts playing [laughter]. like that thing. I was like. what? No. Like. >> as I put my butt down I was like what.

the And then I'm like where is it. playing? And then I realized I still. have my headphones in. It's playing in. my phone but then my phone is just on. lock screen. Somehow I did I did not do this. It. opened YouTube. It went, you know how they have the free. movies sometimes? Yeah. >> It found The Matrix, which was free that. day, yesterday. [laughter] And it. started playing it right when I sat in. the was like, "This is wild. >> It's wild. When you look for it there, it's everywhere.". >> But I wasn't looking for it. It's just.

It's just It found you. >> The Matrix. Like, what? [laughter]. >> I can't believe 42 is right over my. shoulder. >> Right there. Framed. Perfectly. >> framed. >> Yeah. >> Oh, goodness. Sorry, I I I threw you off. of the. >> No, it's No, it's super fun. Um, yeah, dis disclosure, disillusionment. I want. I I want your thoughts on that. >> Disillusionment. Oh, with with Babazar. and the whole thing. Yeah. Basically, I. I made a very conscious choice. Uh, you. know, I was obviously fascinated. I. always wanted to be abducted. >> You wanted to be. >> Oh, I wanted to be abducted. >> No, you don't.

>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I could not wait. I. said, "If they take me one way, I can't. wait to go." Like, I wanted to see. another world. like the how weird it is. would be worth anything. It's just like. I just wanted to see that. Right. >> Um. >> well, you I mean obviously you know. Andrew Gallomore very well. He was here. just a few days ago. >> Yeah. >> He makes a good argument that abductions. are just um possibly an indogenous DMT. experience. >> Possible. I I don't I personally don't. find similarities between the reports of. DMT and the and the what they are.

>> I don't either. >> Yeah. I I think they don't sound or look. at all the same. Um, but again, who. knows, right? Like ultimately, who. knows? Uh, and even if they were, as a. kid, I I knew nothing about that. All I. knew is that I want to go to another. planet, and that sounded like a. legitimate way to do that if that's. real. Right. So, when the Bob Lazar. story came out, obviously, just like. everybody is, it captured my. imagination. And by the way, to anybody. who's a little younger today, what you. might not understand is that back then.

there were not there was no social media. or like a billion stories like that. >> No, >> there was one. >> It was one. >> So it was just this like object of. interest for basically everybody. >> Yeah. I have chills just still. remembering the first time you saw him. in shadow talking about stuff. >> It was insane. And I was a kid. I was. >> was I I was like probably 16 or. something like that. >> Yeah, that was like 83 or something like. that. 83. Oh, no. 83 is when it. happened. So, no. I Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. I heard about it in the '9s, so I. was already going through kind of like a.

refurbished version of it, probably. No, no. I was born in ' 83. So then um so. anyways I I was you know obviously. fascinated but then as time went by and. I got older part of that philosophical. swing was very much from this like very. wonderfilled kind of attitude towards. life to like eh you know things are what. they are probably just the physical. universe that kind of stuff right but. not in a not in like a. magic dissolving way but just kind of.

like yeah it's fine like the universe is. the universe. It's all good. Like it's. amazing. And that was the attitude, right? And then I remember in 2012. because of all of these like what I call. around the cornerism, which is like it's. coming. It's coming. It's been like this. basically since the beginning. >> Yeah. We're still there. >> Yeah. And as long as it's coming, you. can sell books, you can sell movies. And. I'm not even speaking out of a cynical. position. All the power to you. Capitalism is. great. Go make money. It's all good. But. if you're purposefully holding it in.

that realm, then you're not a good. person. Then you're actually doing. something that is just for your benefit, right? If the thing is there and you're. not creating it and you're making money. on top of it, great. If you're keeping. the thing alive to make money, that's a. different story. And again, I don't even. do the whole like fingerpointing and. blaming. I'm just like I just disengage. Just like I just don't care about that. kind of a way of being, right? >> As soon as I see that you have a book. out, I I don't trust you. So, I I I feel. you, but I'm like, I'm not in that camp.

If somebody writes a really interesting. book about something that truly is there. and we don't understand, that's all. great and I have no problem with people. making money. People work hard. Writing. a book is not an easy thing. It's all. good. It's the keeping the mystery alive. when you know it's no longer a mystery. or at least you have enough information. to know it's not a mystery. I'm not. saying it isn't. I'm saying if that's. your attitude, right? Uh so, there was. something about that. there was a. dissolution with that kind of way of. doing things and I just didn't have any. more energy for it. So I decided very. consciously before December 21st, 2012.

that if the Mayan calendar amounts to. exactly nothing right on time, I'm just. going to stop with this whole not just. aliens, just everything. I'm just done. I don't care. Like I just don't care. Like I I don't engage with that part of. the human thought anymore. And that's. what I did. Of course, nothing happened. And then I just stopped interacting with. it. Um, >> you just turn the turn the switch. >> Yeah, it's done. It was just enough. It. was just enough. It's like how many. arguments do you need to have in a.

relationship before you go, okay, just I. don't want this anymore. And uh it. wasn't an argument, but it was a whole. intent and purpose is a thing that kind. of pulls you by your nose infinitely. And there's just more important things. in life, you know. Uh I was interested. in what in fact is true. And that is. what I'm interested in today. So I. stopped interacting with it altogether. And this is why when the things that. started happening to me started. happening to me with DMT and all that. stuff that was coming in contact with.

for all intents and purposes the real. thing at least for me like oh you can. actually interact with these beings and. whomever they are and they're actually. alien. They don't look like humanoids. They straight up look like aliens feel. like aliens. It's it's such a different. universe, which is what you would expect. an alien to be, right? So then. I, you know, that that took me on a. completely different ride into something. that I could actually put my I put I.

could put some stock in it because I had. direct access to it. It wasn't a thing. in the news or a formulated narrative. It was like, "Oh, I can just go and see. it and then I can decide for myself what. do I think that is, but that was so. different than the kind of," and sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but like. this, for me, it's just like a very. caricature version of, you know, of what. this whole thing is. It's just it's too. close to how humans would imagine it.

You see what I'm saying? >> I do. >> Yeah. >> Um, disengaging was a great idea. By the. way, in 15 years, you haven't missed. anything. Nothing's happened. Um. I think people are surprised by this. is that um. the practice came first. So before DMT. you did vipasana. >> No DMT I did first. >> You did first. >> but but but I did vipasana and then.

started doing it and I think the the. second or third retreat I came back and. that that extra thing happened to me. So. it was all of a sudden change the. trajectory of the MT for me. >> Did you do the full 10 days? >> Yeah. Yeah. You have to do the 10day the. first time. >> What is that just like people don't know. how this is. >> amazing? I could not recommend something. more. It's available everywhere. It's. free. I mean it's donation based but. like who doesn't have a few bucks to. spare, right? It's like. >> what is it? >> Uh it's the closest it's the closest uh.

meditative framework to what the Buddha. actually taught. It's very um there's. not a lot of talk about anything. metaphysical. It's just the practice. itself. The shortest way of describing. it is essentially you practicing how to. utilize your attention in order to. purify your mind. And when mind is. expressed here, the the what is meant is. the totality of everything that is. possible to experience. We're not. separating mind is not meant cerebral. It's just mind just experience. Right. So then uh basically you you sit there,

you learn how to hold attention for the. first three days by using a meditative. practice called anapana. Mhm. >> Which is just paying attention to your. breath, which is very difficult to do. >> Y. >> and when you manage to do that for 3. days well enough, you then utilize the. point of attention you've harnessed to. then scan your body in a particular way. >> And nobody really knows why that works. But we know from actual research that it. does. Like we actually see that people's. brains actually change. Yes. >> And I can tell you that without a doubt, this is probably the one single best.

thing I've ever done in terms of like. helping myself. It's it really is a form. of superpower when you get to a certain. level of being able to do it. And I'm. not even on a high level. Like you don't. have to be some kind of a master. It's. just the ability to disengage a little. bit from whatever turmoil is happening. Oh, the camera's moving. I was like. [laughter] whatever whatever whatever is. happening in in uh in in real time. Uh, and sometimes it's still hard to do. obviously, but it is an incredible. practice that I would recommend anybody. try because that's where you really put.

your finger on what it's like to be you. moment to moment. And when you do this. every single day for 10 days, the whole. day, you find out quite a bit about not. just your psychology, but you find out. about what's possible in terms of. experience. You feel like you've been. given a completely new operating system. You even, you know what's funny? When. you get your phone back, cuz you give. your phone away. This is just a very. interesting data point for me. Not a. little bit. Not a little bit. A lot. Have you I don't want to put you on the. spot. Like, have you done mushrooms or.

you can't answer? Okay. >> Yeah. I'm experienced. >> Okay. Okay. I'm just making sure that. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know how screens. look kind of extra digital or whatever? >> Yes. >> That's what a phone looks like when you. get it back. >> It does. >> Yes. It's really interesting. Like, what. the what? Like, it literally looks. digitized like this. Like you see it on. acid or on mushrooms. I think what it is. the first one that I did I realized it's. a I spoke about this before basically I. realized it's a it's actually a. bandwidth problem. So basically the the. according to vapana what's actually.

happening is that every single uh what. we call mental event is not separate. from a physical event in order for it to. be alive something in your body has to. register it even what you call your. thoughts right this is why when you get. stressed you need the massage right cuz. your shoulder tense up so that's one. example of that. >> well. >> the bigger the impact of whatever that. was the mental event the stronger the. instantiation in the body and traumas. are deeply deeply rooted somewhere in. the body and they're probably the rise. of like a lot of pain, sometimes even.

cancer probably. Um, and what what. essentially the the the idea is is that. what we do in the western world, we. create this severing. So like when the. mental event is present, we feel. terrible. If we take our minds away from. it, we're like, "Oh, solved. We don't. have to think about it. I can go watch a. movie. I can drown myself in whatever. and work." But the reality of it is that. whatever that was, it's now in your body. somewhere and you're just ignoring it. basically. So what I realized and and. basically what you're doing in vapasa is. you just allow yourself to sit in.

neutrality and you allow these things to. percol percolate up and then first the. little fizz comes out like the itches, the scratches, things like this. They're. called saras. >> And then after about two or three days, they just stop. There's no more itches. There's no more nothing. And then the. bigger ones come in like big pains that. you just I guess didn't even realize. were there. So one of these pains. happened to me in one of the days that. they taught vapasa on the fourth day I. think and this crazy pain in my knee.

came. It was as bad as somebody carving. a knife into my knee. But I was already. in a state of kind of neutrality where. it's your brain is no longer defining it. as pain. At that point it's just a very. strong sensation. It's just like a very. and you can just kind of sit with it. You just observe it. You don't touch it. >> You just observe it. You don't touch it. And which is the practice by the way. But then after you do that, it it's. almost like a child that just wanted to. show you a drawing. So when it showed. you the drawing, and again, we don't. quite know why that works from a. scientific perspective, but it works.

>> After it showed you the drawing and you. looked, after the child noticed you did. look, okay, you looked at me. I got my. attention. It just goes away. It's done. It's no longer there. And then after I. came out from that from that the reason. that I noticed that it's a bandwidth. problem is because of that one session. because when I stepped outside. every it's I was it's like I was on 400. mics of acid. >> everything was sharp. >> everything was shining and glistening. and blissful and filled with meaning and. I was like oh my god there was just.

serenity and peace. >> I know this feeling. >> and I go this is why people devote their. lives to this. >> and then I realize oh think about it. from a computational perspective. something in me even though I wasn't. consciously aware was had to keep this. alive. >> Mh. >> So when it was gone and because it was. big that much bandwidth is now free. >> Yes. >> To look at colors and meaning and. everything. So it's like ah wow. So like. that's when I realized that oh this is. like a science. This is like it's not. like a feel-good kind of no no.

>> I bet the same parts of the brain are. lighting up when meditation and. psychedelics. I bet it's the same parts. of the brain that light up. the uh the. reduction of the DMN is similar. So. Richard Davidson did did a lot of. studies on this uh and then he. discovered he he added psilocybin later. actually way way later in his career but. he found that yeah the default mode. network goes yeah almost dormant. um but but mushrooms also do extra. things so there's like other things like. the pyrochnics is not something you. necessarily have to experience with. meditation but the peace and everything.

yeah the the deeper meaning. >> Well let's uh let's take a quick break. and when we come back we'll go to the. infamous night in Boulder. >> Let's do it. All right, be right back. Let's talk about DMT. >> Let's do it. >> Here's a disclaimer. We're not. promoting, condoning, or endorsing the. use of any psychedelics. They're. dangerous. Be careful. We're speaking. from personal experience, both of us. I've I've done all these as well. So, when it's funny to watch you on podcast.

where someone's like, "Describe the DMT. experience." You're like, "I can't.". Because you can't. >> Yeah, >> you can't. You really You really do go. somewhere else. So, you kind of became famous for this laser. experiment. >> Mhm. >> And we know the story, but I want to. know. what made you just Why did you shine a. laser at the wall? I would never think. of that. >> I think most people wouldn't, and I. don't even know if I would necessarily. manage to gro that unless all the right. things would happen and I would be. paying attention. Um,

it was a it was a yearslong process. that I was aiming at. I was basically asking the question, can. we prove that the DMT space is real? >> Mhm. >> That was it. And then everything else is. just like the busy work of how it. happened. >> So this was like an experiment. >> Uh, yeah. I tried all kinds of things. So basically I had an experience on DMT. after already being very versed in it. for years. >> Mhm. And then something happened and I.

had this like now famous story with the. frog guy who apparently became like like. a thing that people really want to know. more about and I know almost nothing. about. But basically I had a being. appear in my room as real as a person. looking like a frog and he showed me how. to play certain chords on a guitar that. I did not know how to do. Now, aside. from the fact that this is a pretty. awesome, you know, uh, experience, what was key there is that he was. showing me chords I do not know how to. play. So, he was essentially saying, "I'm real. You don't know how to do.

this. I'm giving you information." So, then I knew, at least for me, obviously. I couldn't prove it to anyone, but it. was clear to me that nothing will ever. be the same again because at least I. knew that one person now knows for a. fact that they are real. And then the. second I hold something of that kind, I'm never letting go. This is this is. it. Now we're holding it. And uh for a. year, I try to just go back in there and. I basically lived on DMT for like a year. plus. >> Yeah. I mean, I loved it. I mean, for.

me, it was, you know, I I was just. mesmerized by everything. >> Sure. >> Uh and I, again, super not recommended. Definitely don't recommend this. But I. basically did everything on it. I'm. going to the gym, to the store, like. doing everything. And um I try to ask. like, okay, great. Like you told me that. you're real or at least somebody there. told me that. So now how do we show me. something? How do we build a spaceship? Like something something that we can. take home and obviously they never. answer questions of that kind, which is.

>> this is always the big question is if. it's so real for thousands of years, how. come we don't have anything. >> tangible? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, and. it's not clear to me still if they're if. they can't or they won't. I don't really. know. Uh, but clearly if he showed me. something that clearly they can. It's. just a matter of like kind of like maybe. degree or something. I've definitely. seen like them arguing about this one. time. So there's definitely not like a. consensus or anything like this. >> Them meaning like the entities. >> Yeah. The different kinds of entities. like arguing with each other whether we.

should know any of this or never things. like this. Um, but then in the end of. the day when you go back to normal. state, your brain constantly says, "Okay, it can always just be like a. really neat trick of the mind," which is. still awesome, by the way, >> but but maybe it's just like a really. your if you know if the brain is capable. of schizophrenia. and again I I don't know what it's like, but like you know what if this is like a. very kind of like in controlled induced.

schizophrenia that happens only when. that like there was definitely a lot of. these possibilities in my head, right? It's a kind of like the brain builds. coherent enough of a story. >> powered by this extra kind of experience. >> all still make sense, but the realism in real time, the the. the the essence of what it was like. doesn't feel like a derangement. It. feels like reality is happening. >> Yes. >> So then I couldn't let it go. And then.

eventually I said, "Okay, cool. Well, you know, if you guys aren't going to. show me, I'm going to try and figure it. out. So, I used kind of the closest thing to. a to a scientific thinking that I could. given the fact that I really have. nothing to probe. And I thought, what what do we know for. sure? And there was a few things that we. knew for sure. We know that light had to. be involved because you can see it. So, photons are carrying some information. from somewhere, right? Which means that. light is moving between from where they. are to where I am because I can see it. with my eyes. So that must be the case,

right? >> Hold on. I don't I don't want the. theory. I've already heard this. I want. to know what you felt. >> Oh, great question. Uh, thank you. >> Well, we all know this. We all know that. story. I want to know what what you. felt. You saw the symbols the first 10. seconds. >> No, no, no, no, not the symbols. So, like I'm talking about like before, right? So, like but but this is a I. appreciate this. This is this is. >> very useful and helpful for me as well. What I felt was that there's this super. importance to us understanding all of.

this and also trying to understand what. is kind of what are the rules like are. they playing by rules? Do they have a. government? Like that that was kind of. like my like okay what are we stepping. on somebody's toes like who knows man. like you know like was this like a. renegade person who but now if they're. watching and now they're I don't know. like he's an outlaw or something you. know all these scenarios in your head. it's like okay well then after I years. go by and I kind of figure this thing. out with with the help of my beautiful.

wife and we we we come up with this idea. that a laser is supposed to do something. and then it worked. The first moment wasn't I was just kind. of I mean obviously I was kind of. shocked that it worked honestly that. anything worked. I I didn't know what to. expect. Uh but the big shock came when. my my friend Tim he was the first one. that I actually showed this to. Uh he he. saw it and the funny thing is that the. way that he saw it is that because he.

was in state he forgot I told him about. it. you know, yes, of your like. immediate memory kind of goes away. So, he just woke up from being out there, but he was standing and he just reported. to me without remembering that I told. him anything. He's like, "Bro, there's. language in there.". >> Were you with him in text to him? Yeah. >> And he was like, "There's language in. there.". >> And and I go like, "Yeah, I told you.". He's like, "Oh, right." And he goes. like, "Dude, what the fuck?" And you. know, and then we and then we then then. it became clear to me that I actually. found something very, very important.

Where is it scary or beautiful or. >> It's beautiful. It's beautiful. I mean, scary I think depends on your framing, right? There's definitely people who. experience the size of it and that. scares them. Uh there's something. overwhelming about the scale of. everything, including what you're seeing. in there. >> So, thousands of people have done this. and they see the symbols, they see the. code, but some people don't. >> Those those are the people that are. interesting to me. What do they have in. common? Is that a signal? I I wish I.

knew they have nothing in common. Not. age groups, not IQ, not we we thought of. everything. There's literally not and I. think and I'm with you that this is. actually super interesting and this is. something that we have to admit. Uh I'm. I now have a nonprofit called Code of. Reality and started with uh my my. partner David Carter and we our goal is. to find out what in fact is true. And we. have to be honest about the fact that. just like you're saying, there's about. 30% of people that are really having a.

hard time and some of them can't see it. at all. >> and they go in wanting to see it. >> Yes. And but to me, something tells me. that that's just like you said, that's. information. That's a data point. And I. think when we're going to figure it out, it will tell us something very. fundamental. I I think that there's. something about the differences in how. people cast their attention or the way. that their brain is constructed that. causes this. And I think that's a. triangulation point that can be an. interesting uh this versus this. So it's. it's an interesting binary to explore. I.

do think we will solve this, but we. haven't yet. And it does pose a real. problem to at least the proposition. itself, right? Because if it's out. there, then it's out there. Why would. some people not see it? But it it it it. is a little different in the sense that. yeah, obviously there's something about. how our minds are that has to do with us. being able to see it. So, you know, it. gives it a little bit more a cushion. there. Uh, yeah, we don't know. We we. literally I thought of everything from. eyesight to age to IQ to.

predispensations to life, like people. that are much more kind of like heart uh. driven to people that are much more. cerebral, all kinds. >> So, you're tracking all that? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're trying to figure. out all the time. >> Um, didn't I read that you're doing some. AI tooling and. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And and putting all this information to. AI to try to track the patterns. >> Yeah. Now we have we developed some. tools with the help of Chris Paris and. Sterling and we developed a. software into Apple Vision Pro that. allows you to label these. So we. actually took an very high resolution.

image of the of the band of light. You. see it inside of Apple Vision Pro. And. what is surprising is that you all of a. sudden have an image of the code if. you're on DMT that is frozen. It's no. longer moving. It's frozen. >> It's a snapshot. >> It's a snapshot of the code. >> in Apple Vision. >> Yep. But you don't see it unless you're. on DMT. >> You're on DMT. >> Oh my god, >> it's wild. And now you can label it. So. basically, we have a little thing that. runs and allows you to mark what you're. seeing. So there's location, a world. state, uh, a brain state. So it. registers your brain is being scanned.

So it it it takes a snapshot of your. brain in that moment and where you. clicked. And then it gives you a radial. menu that allows you to pick out of six. symbols. So you can now label this is. what I saw or this is what I saw. This. is what I saw. And over time it will. build a Rosetta Stone of what you're. reporting and where and then you can. compare it with other people. >> Well, the the snapshot is is crazy. because that sort of I mean obviously. you're familiar with Andrew Galmore and. you know that he's a skeptic and and the. speckle theory and all that.

>> Um he still thinks the the work is. important. >> If if you're capturing it in Vision Pro, I think the speckle theory goes away. >> Not necessarily. I'll tell you why. Because the information seems to be. still holographic in nature like it has. this kind of like a threedimensional. thing which should not happen in a. camera or can't because a camera only. registers amplitude. It will collapse. any anything with phase right. So that. tells you that there's some projection. going on to either some degree or to an. infinite degree. Then the question.

becomes is it like a barcode like is it. kind of like that particular. arrangement? So the only way to really. answer that is to figure out if people. are seeing the exact same thing in the. exact same place because if they do then. clearly there's information in the image. however it is that it happens. But now. you can start investigating that but we. need to answer that question first. So I. don't want to get ahead of ourselves. Uh. there is an interesting theory. I don't. know if you heard me. I just released an. episode with him with Anthony Nes. He. wrote uh he's an independent researcher. and he wrote a little uh piece that I. thought was brilliantly written.

The idea there is that he thinks that. the reason people seeing at least very. similar things is because essentially. what is happening with the laser. experiment is that we're g gaining a. glance back into our own brains. Literally we're seeing the network. called V1 responsible for moving. information from your eyes to your brain. and we're looking at the semi-rystallian. structure of it and nothing else. And. that's why it's so similar because. across individuals it's similar like the. the now me and him agreed that if we.

discern that people report the same. symbols in the same place in the image. that theory goes away because you can't. have it will never be that specific. Right. Right. >> So but there's a lot of work to be done. Also I I mentioned this before but I. what I really love uh is this idea that. we have now because it's going it's. going to require a little bit more of a. budget but we'll get there. Now. basically if what Anthony is saying is. correct and we're basically looking at. the canvas so to speak then can we bring. content back.

in a targeted way? Can we use uh. incraanial magnetic stimulation to. stimulate particular part parts of the. brain to try and induce content back. into the image and see if it matches. with what we expect to see? That would. also be a fun one. >> That's a great experiment. >> Yeah. Um, I'm I'm glad that you said it. could still be speckle in the Vision. Pro. >> I So the Sorry, I'm cutting you off. So. like it's not that it it's it's not that. it can't be speckle or or still can be. speckle. That to me is a side question.

Remember when they all the hints they. left and all that stuff and what made me. arrive at the laser speckle was the. prerequisite. That's the thing they. paint on. So they need a random pattern. to paint on. >> Right. So it's the same as saying well. because Andrew was saying for a long. well if you eliminate the speckle will. go away. Yeah but it's the same as. saying why don't you just use ambient. light. There's a reason why they said a. laser because laser can produce speckle. That was the prerequisite to be able to. see it. >> right. >> Yeah. >> laser. Yeah laser.

>> They didn't say put a light. They said. no no it needs to be a laser because you. need light scattering to see it which is. which was the original idea. Now, that's. just not. that's just the wrong question to ask. because it doesn't parse whether they're. still communicating or not. communicating. If speckle is the canvas. on which they're painting, it doesn't. nullify the idea that they're painting. on it. What we're asking is what can we. do with this that will tell us that it's. actual information, however it is that. is being projected. >> How do we build that experiment to prove.

or disprove it? that that's that the the. Apple Vision Pro experiment will would. definitely make headway because if. there's correlation. but like actual replication of like. where people reporting the characters, you're no longer at liberty to say it's. some stoastic pattern. Literally there's. a signal that is across individuals. Everybody's seeing the same thing. So. >> that's mind-blowing. Um. >> again, we don't know that that's true. yet. Yeah. Yeah. But. >> no, I like that you're skeptical and. you're not not trying to sell this. No,

we're interested in what is true. To me, like I said, the new hypothesis flipped. because my interaction with them, with. whomever they are, it's so clear to me. that they're real because I've. interacted with them so many times, just. like I'm talking to you now, that for. anybody to convince me that they're not. real would take as much, if not more, than for me to convince the the whole. scientific community that it is real. So. like that does not mean that I'm. unmovable in my position, but I can't. occupy any other state of knowing than I.

currently do. So it's like I'm a I'm. cheating a little bit in the sense that. I almost like I know the answer that. they are real, but it's not that that is. unmovable. Like if we can devise an. experiment that will show me beyond the. shadow without Yes. the whole time this. was like a really elaborate way of your. brain of dealing with that information. and somehow it can be replicated across. individuals. If we can devise that. experiment, I'll spin on a dime. There's. no like I'm interested in what in fact. is true. >> I'm I'm so happy to hear that. I mean, even Andrew, who's skeptical about it,

says it's still very important work, very interesting work. Um, tell me about the the console room. That. was a crazy story. >> Yeah. So, it's not a room. It's. literally an object that appears in. whatever room I'm in. Okay. Now recently. actually s very interestingly there was. almost like a which I've never seen. before actually that's not true there. was other one other instance where that. happened for like a couple of weeks. where all of a sudden the console didn't. appear then it reappeared again and.

recently we were doing tests uh one day. we were doing it with Tom Matt who's the. guy who developed this ability called. upsight and he sees these holographic. images just naturally and we did it with. him and when he was present I don't know. if it was related it to his presence, but just when we were doing it together, it just didn't appear. And we're like, "Oh, that's weird." Cuz we were trying. to compare the console with and I'll. explain what it is. So, basically, I I. after I started talking about the laser, I smoke some DMT in the kitchen and my.

wife is like cooking or something and. all of a sudden this thing appears in. front of me. Just imagine like the most. realistic augmented reality. So, I still. see the room, but then there's this as. real as this bottle. >> Mhm. and just a capsule appears in the. middle of the room and it's not it's. holographic in nature. So, it's kind of. like this hovers in space, but it's as. opaque as this mic stand. It's not like. the translucent even thing. It's just. like straight up like enclosed. And I. was like, "What?". >> And then it opened and a podium came out.

and arranged itself into menus, a pair. of gloves, and a carousel that was. moving to my left like this of like VR. glasses. And recently I saw an interview. Carter actually sent me um an interview. with him. There's this appar because I. spoke to a few psychonauts that. experienced like similar things like. screens things like this but for them it. was more like haphazard once in a while. For me it started appearing 100% of the. time. It's the same exact thing. It has. the exact same parameters. The screens. can be different but the body so to.

speak the thing that opens up and does. the presentation is the same. >> No matter what room you're in. >> doesn't matter. Even if I'm outside it. will coat the street. like it would. literally coat like it would open like. on the street, coat the sidewalk, like. everything. It's insane. So then uh. recently, I don't remember his name, but. when we finish, I'll give you his name. Super interesting interview. There's. this guy who for sure I can tell you. without a shadow without he's seeing the. console for sure. Same story. He did it. many, many, many times. I think that. what happens is that you need a certain.

amount of uh usage of DMT in a short. period of time. I think he said he did. like 250 in like a very short period of. time. Yeah. >> And all of a sudden, and again, he's. like super, you know, like cogent, not. like one of these like super hyperbolic. people. It just is like, and you can see. he's blown away by this. This is the. tail sign somebody is actually seeing. it. Cuz whenever people say, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I see the console." I'm like, "There's no way you're seeing the. console cuz you wouldn't be talking. about it like that." Cuz it's crazy. There's no way you would just kind of. say it and just move on. And he all the.

signs that he's seeing it for sure, he's. describing it correctly. The same. device. Well, very similar in the way. that it executes itself. It's like I. don't understand. It's like it's in. space like and you can see that it's. struggling to deliver the realism of it. That's the thing that crazy about it. In. DMT worlds, you can see insane things. Insane things. Well, you know, like. multi-dimensional things and giant. machines, >> but it's part of a larger world that. you're like, okay, I'm in I'm in La La. Land now, so it makes sense.

>> Yeah, >> this is just normal thing. And it's just. imagine like all of a sudden a camera. would just like holographic camera just. appear and hover and look at you and. you're like what is going on? And it's. very futuristic and it's it's beautiful. Beautiful. It's it it's so perfectly. designed just like you would imagine. like a super advanced civilization would. do. Right. >> What do you see on the menus? What's the. what's on the screen? >> The menus. It's very hard to discern. It's almost like some of it is almost. like that code. There's like things that. are moving. It's very hard to interact. with it because it's like uh the amount.

of. the amount of brain power you have to. induce to actually interact with it and. look at it is enormous. That's why I. usually were just kind of looking at it. because it was exhausting. >> Yes. >> Um but uh but but the the the thing that. is the more realistic than the menus is. the body of the thing. I created a. little illustration of it when on the. video I put out about this and it's. pretty close to like how real it feels. When we're done, I'll show you like also. we put it into VR just so you understand. how real it feels. And it opens up like.

this like, you know, like a capsule. There's these parts on the on the on the. floor that are all opening up at the. same time. Uh there's like iridescent. lights running on the rims. It's like a. real object. Like you put Apple Vision. Pro and they're just like augmented. reality here. So at that point, you go. like what are the chances with. everything else that all of that is like. a hallucination? Come on. Like this is. like it's just be it's like you know. like an alien civilization is like. talking to you and you're going to keep. pretending like it's not happening.

>> It can't be. How are you able to stay in. the room? I mean cuz when I go I'm gone. >> Yeah. No, that that requires uh the. ability to be able to kind of function. on pretty high dosage. Yeah. >> It takes some practice but. >> which you can do. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I can drive on it. >> I wouldn't recommend. That reminds me, got to tell the story. about when you were driving to Vegas on. like what 5,400. >> something like that. Yeah. >> Micrograms. >> Yeah. At least about 5,000. Yeah. >> Which is what I guess like 50 hits.

>> each one. Well, depending how much on. each one. Yeah. It was like squares. It. was 54, I think. But. >> were you just popping squares? >> I was I was driving to a Canelo fight. >> Oh my god. >> I was I was dating back then. uh this. Colombian girl uh man the things I put. her through bless her heart. >> [laughter]. >> um uh but but she was um she was a. reporter in that she did a lot of things. but she also reporting on sport events. and things like this and that's a gig. she was doing back then so she had.

ringside tickets and she was already. there obviously I would never put her. through that but then she was already. there and then I um yeah I it wasn't. just asset I did everything you can. imagine. Uh, but I was. >> driving. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I don't know how you could do it. >> I don't know either. But the but the but. the thing is I wanted to see where the. line was and [laughter] uh and uh it was. it was definitely there. The the the. part that really is funny to me because. recently I I did tell the story recently. a few times it reemerged. And the thing.

that was it is funny to me every time I. think about this because when I stopped. there was a moment after 30 plus of them. that that I I wasn't actually sure what. was happening like that that didn't. happen. >> Well, I mean I wasn't sure because I'm I. always know somehow what's going on and. that's the thing I was testing. Is it. really infinite for me? Like can I get. to a place where I really don't. understand what's happening? And it it. kind of got there but then very quickly. I realized that I actually don't know. where I am. I actually don't know where. I stopped. I was like, I'm stopped. I.

know the car is not moving, but I don't. know where I'm parked. >> What does it look like? >> Well, no, it's on the What's the road. where we pass from LA to Vegas? What's. the main. >> Is it 90. >> something? Something, right? So, I'm on. it. So, it's not very wide. >> I mean, what do you see with your eyes? I mean, when I'm when I'm tripping, I. don't see the road. >> No. No. So, you I mean, it depends on. your attention. So, if your attention is. really dialed in, you will see whatever. it is you're trying to see. And there's. going to be interference pattern, but. you can look through it. like you can. just you know you can see. >> that's what I'm trying to learn is this.

level of control is very unusual. >> but it's not necessarily a good thing. like actually letting go later after. that I realized letting go is actually. the secret you don't need a lot like you. do need a tiny bit if you let go and you. go right if your if your point is to. prove to yourself something which is was. kind of what I was doing then yeah but. like I wouldn't recommend this to anyone. it just creates a lot of tension. >> but when I that part is funny to me. because when I when I stopped again that. road is what two lanes Maybe. >> that's it. >> But then I was like I thought I thought.

that I stopped at one of these like. exits that also has like an re-entrance. Then I realized actually I don't know. that. [laughter]. >> So I was like I don't know if I'm in the. middle of the road right now. I actually. am not sure. And I didn't have you know. how your short-term memory just suffers. tremendously. So imagine on that amount. of acid I don't know anything beyond the. immediate second. So I was like wait and. then I would try to look out to see. where I am and I couldn't do it. I. literally could not like remember what. every time I would turn to look, I was. like, why was I looking? What was the. what was the reason for? And then I.

realized, okay, okay, why do I care? That was why I was [laughter] like, oh, cuz Okay, police stops me. I don't know. where I am, literally in space and. clearly going to see if something's. wrong. >> Yep. >> I have a lot of stuff in the car, >> but your pupils are just black. >> Forget about that. I have a bunch of. things in the car that will definitely. get me in a lot of trouble. And then I. was like, "Okay, >> uh, all right. So, I'm just going to. keep driving." And then just going to. keep driving. >> Yeah, I have to keep moving. And then I.

realized I don't I wasn't even sure if. I'm moving in the right direction. [laughter] anymore. But then I knew then. I knew that the cars pass I had enough. like sensibility to know if cars pass me. behind me, it's good. And cars. [laughter] come in front of me, it's. bad. >> But then I it's I had to think in. binaries, right? >> But there's a wheel and there's. >> then there was then there was just my. knuckle. [laughter]. >> No. and the and the and and the lines in. the middle of the road. And I know if. there's a a bit of a distance between my. knuckle to the line in the road, >> if it's to the left or my right, doesn't. matter, but it can't be your knuckle.

>> It can't be too far. [laughter] And then. I just kept on doing that and the GPS. was just telling me where to go. >> No, this is not recommended. >> No, no. [laughter] And then at that. point, in for a penny, in for a pound. I. just kept on popping them and I got I. finished everything I had. But then. actually another funny moment was when I. was giving the car to the uh valet. I. wish I remember what hotel it was. Maybe. it was M. When do they usually do. fights? It's one of the hotels. It was. >> MGM usually. >> Maybe. Oh, yeah. Maybe it was M. [laughter].

The guy came to me and I remember. practicing [laughter] the faces. >> and he opened the door. I'm like, >> you're like, "Okay, this is how I'm got. to look.". >> I just gave him the thing. I was like, "I don't" and I I just gave him my. wallet [laughter] just like I don't cuz. I know I have cash there. He understood. that. >> he knew. Don't ask questions, just take. the thing. Yeah. Yeah. But [laughter]. >> cuz I you couldn't even tell what. denomination these bills are. >> I will show you a picture of me with my. ex in front of the like in that event. I. don't think you can tell that I'm even.

high. Like it's, you know, it's it's f. like I'm fine, but like it's really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But to me, it felt. like I'm just like. >> it's the most banana puffs. Like Yeah. Yeah. >> When you're too high and that voice in. your mind is like, "All right, you're. too high right now.". >> This is the thing. I just kind of melt. into it. Like I don't know why I have. this ability. I don't claim special uh. like I didn't have to work for it. That's just how I am. I just accept it. I just let go. I just like whatever. happens. I don't know. Like one time I. thought I'm I'm it was a different time.

and it was way less. But then that night. I truly lost my mind. Like I actually. lost my mind. And I knew that too. Like. I knew that I simply I'm simply no. longer tracking what's going on at all. I couldn't even You remember Frogger the. game? >> Yeah. >> That's what I was playing with. information. So, basically, I would want. to tell you all a sentence, but in order. for me to get it to the other side of. the street, I have to go through all.

these like enormous amounts of. information moving in front of me and I. I'm like locked in and I can't even I. have to wait until there's this one. opening and I would tell you one word. And I would say one word every seven. minutes. I'd be like Vegas. and after a few minutes good cuz I. remembered like now I can say it to you. but it was all part of the same. sentence. So like. >> where were you when you had a party and. then and then a friend of mine was like. driving me around and at a certain point. I was convinced convinced. >> that we.

by mistake killed someone. >> What? That's what I thought that. happened. Like I I I thought and then. somehow we talked our way out of it and. like obviously none of this ever. happened but that's how much I lost him. Like I thought and then I'm sitting. there like just. looking at him and there was something. about that moment. I remember he was. driving to uh LA to the city and all of. a sudden because of how high I was the. whole city opened up to the right and it. looked like New York cuz the building.

just stretched through the hor horizon. >> and he had these like harnesses that he. had this just these beautiful uh kind of. like harnesses that he got in Burning. Man to just keep things in. >> And I and he was trying to calm me down. cuz he saw I just I I'm off the deep. end. >> We didn't kill anybody. >> No, no, no. He like he it wasn't just. that. I was just like completely out of. it. And then he was trying to calm me. down. So he played some classical music. >> So at that point I looked at him and I. looked at New York is what I thought New. York was. And I see his harnesses and I.

thought it was gunholstered. >> Oh no. >> And I look at him and I go and I thought. we're Italian mobsters. >> And I go this is so gangster. >> Oh no. >> And he looked at me and he's like okay. And he told me later he's like at that. point when you said that I was like. you're on your own buddy. Like I I I I. can't help. I hope you'll come back. And. I remember this so clearly that I. there's no way that I could communicate. any of this, but I didn't I thought this. is how I'm gonna stay now. I was.

convinced this is how I am now. I'm. crazy. I don't know what that looks. like. >> Did you were Were Were Were you. regretting it? Like uh. >> No, no, no. In that moment, I just. accepted it. >> Just like I'm a gangster and. >> No, no, no. I'm crazy now. >> I'm cra Oh, you. >> Yeah. I was like, "Okay, now I'm this is. what lunacy is like actual. >> not funny one, but like actual lunacy.". >> Yes. >> And I'm a lunatic now. Like I'm actually. like deranged and like incapable of. formulating like connecting between what. is actually happening. >> You remember the relief during the.

comedown? >> Um. >> like oh my god I'm I'm okay. I'm okay. >> I think there was some of it. I that. that part is actually hard for me to. remember. I think I just passed out at a. certain point. But I do remember that. moment because I was looking at this, you know, when you attach either a. strong emotion or a visual, it's easier. to remember. So that visual always. stayed with me, which is like because I. saw I saw him go like this when I said. the gangster thing. So I realized I. didn't guess correctly cuz he went like. this. He went like. like when he did that, I was like, "Oh,

I'm cuckoo. I'm cuckoo." So then I was. like, "Oh, okay." So then, okay. And. then I was like, and I could totally see. how this is how people lose it. >> because they freak out right there. I. didn't freak out. I was just like, yeah, okay, that's where I live now and that's. what it is. And I don't know why I I. just accept what it is and that's it. >> Was this after your vipasa journey? >> No, no, no, no. That was when I was that. was way before. >> That was before. >> I was surprised. >> Why?

>> Because you cuz most people would panic. and you just and you just accepted. >> No, I always had this. I always had. where I just kind of if it's too crazy, I just accept it and I stop trying to. like. I stop trying to flail around. I just. like Okay. >> Well, it's so smart because that's the. best way to have a bad trip is to fight. >> Yeah. To fight. Yeah. Yeah. So, I can't. I don't claim like special ability that. I had to like work on. It just maybe. it's genetic. I don't know why that is. And there's something about chaos. Not. there. There it was. It was there was a.

moment of kind of I guess what what. would you call this emotion maybe sorrow. there was like a because I lost. everybody basically I accepted that. maybe I will never know truly like. anybody again because they I don't. understand. what is actually happening and there's. no way I can communicate. So there was. this kind of grief. But in other places. where it is still very manageable and. all that stuff, I somehow I really enjoy. the chaos. And the best way for me to. describe it is that when things are.

super chaotic, you actually become. invisible. There there's solace in that. It's. almost like when when there's a storm, nobody's looking at you. >> True. >> So it's just, you know, it's not you're. you're hidden within the chaos, >> right? >> And there's something very comforting. about that for me. I don't know why that. is. Now, since then, obviously, I'm at. this point I'm a very different person. You know, I'm a responsible father. I'm, you know, there there's a But I'm so. happy that I had these experiences cuz I. know how deep the rabbit hole goes. Uh I.

know what can go wrong. >> Um and also I I do know that it this is. not the norm. Like not everybody kind of. stays no. >> levelheaded that way. And and this is. why I'm very very careful with. recommending any of this to anyone or. anything like this because I feel like. there's a lot of uh things that can. happen that are not as you know what the. meme media would like to portray it to. be. There can be a lot of uh things that. can go wrong with these things. >> Absolutely true. Um what was the normal.

day like when you were OCD back when you. were a kid before you fix that? >> Yeah, that was wild. Uh yeah, I had this. like insane OCD which is like you know. opening a door 2,000 times and not being. able to leave. It's the most. excruciating I think. >> Was that one of your ticks? The door. >> It I wouldn't even call it a tick. I. guess you can call it a repetitive tick. The thing is a tick is something that. that just kind of happens right um in. the body usually. But this is like a. task that you have to perform otherwise. nothing is right. And it's not even like.

you know people sometimes describe like. you know check the stove or my whole. family will die. Well, yeah, there's. sometimes these intrusive thoughts, but. mostly it's just the feeling of. wrongness is dialed up to a 12. It's. like it's not even like a the there. needs not be a reason. It's not even for. any reason. It's just that if you don't. do this right now, it's so wrong. Everything is just wrong. You have to do. it. >> You can't proceed. >> You can't proceed. You have to complete. this now.

>> Yes. It's such a crazy I know that. people live this with this into their, you know, adult life. Dude, I can't even. imagine. That's so the fact that I don't. I feel so blessed that somehow it left. me and I I think it's due to mushrooms, but yeah, it's like you you you go and. >> someone in their 50s that still does. this. >> Yeah. You you you come to the door, you're about to I remember this. I was. coming I came back from school. There. was no one no one home. And you can. usually only do this when no one is home. because then you you will be caught and.

then there's shame in doing that, right? So then I'm like just looked at the door. and you always felt like it was coming. on. It's like oh this is that feeling. It's like right here in here and like. >> and you're like and then you okay I I'll. just do a small one. And then you do the. small one and the small one breaks apart. into smaller ones. It's like, oh, even. the way I entered the key into the door, it had to actually go like a little too. to the left or to the right and then. back out and then and then after you're. done with that, it's like, okay, now the.

handle. No, we have to go back again. Now the key again. >> Oh god. >> And and you stand there and sometimes. you just you like I don't remember if I. actually like broke into tears, but you. want to just like cry cuz you're like, "Please let me go." Like I just want to. do. It's awful. It's if there was one. thing I'm sure there are most horrible. conditions that probably involve uh you. know physical pain also cluster. headaches things like this. but that's that's got to be up there in.

terms of psychological torture. >> It's torture. >> It's if I can wave a magic wand and one. of the things I get to chooses to. eliminate would be this. I would be I I. can I can say I made the world like. orders of magnitude better. It's so. awful. Well, didn't didn't you eliminate. it for yourself with one? >> Yes, but I can't point to like a. particular thing. Like I I just noticed. it in my 20s that it was gone. It was. just gone. And I was like, "Oh." And. then I started retracing my steps and I. was like, "Oh, it must have been the. mushrooms.

>> because it because I remember at the. time.". >> No, I didn't even notice it was gone. >> Yeah. I didn't even notice it was gone. Because you don't think about it when it. doesn't happen and then you're just. preoccupied for whatever period and you. know, and then I think it was like 20 I. don't remember maybe 25 26 and I I was. like wait a second I forget what made me. realize it but something did maybe even. I think I smoked weed or something and. all of a sudden I was like wait. I remember I had and I didn't have it in. like over a decade and then I realized.

it must be the mushrooms cuz I remember. every time you do mushrooms there's this. smoothening of your psyche that you just. kind of happens at the end. >> Absolutely right. That's a great way to. describe it. Yeah. That's why I do it. every every six months or so. That's. amazing. >> You know, go to Sedona, chill out. >> Yeah. So, just so you know, if you. actually suffer from this, there's a. real possibility that you can actually. reme fully remedy this with mushrooms. And I think I think there's some data to. actually support this. >> I think you're right. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um Yeah. And and it's really nice that.

psychedelic. therapy is becoming a real thing and. legalized all over the country. And. hopefully now on the federal level and. it will spill into other things, not. just Iberane, but yeah, >> I I hope so. Um, ketam ketaman therapy. is helping a lot of people. >> Yeah. Well, I mean the data is there. So. the data is there. The the the Iberane. thing opened, right? It's there. Now. federal budget is a whole other ball. ballpark, right? Now, if the data is. there, which it is, >> it will open the door to many many.

others. Uh there's a university in. Brazil right now that is doing an. official study on smoked version of DMT. and uh chronical depression and they. show tremendous results reinvigoration. of the spirit and all that stuff like. literally people just come out of it. basically. So. >> I'm not surprised. >> Yeah. >> What [snorts] is about 42? Why does that. show up? Why is that everywhere? Is that. really like a Douglas Adams thing? >> Yeah, I think so. Look, there's I mean. again the simple answer is who knows, right? But my suspicion is that usually.

folklore. >> contains nuggets of truth and it kind of. it's almost like it winks at you right. so. uh I don't know how much you know about. Douglas Adams but he was a very secular. person so if you would ask him. he would tell you to take a hike he'd be. like this is it's a it's a it's a way to. illustrate a point questions are more. important than answers is the point. right. >> but he because he was so creative which. clearly he was he might have been more. tapped in than he realized. Maybe 42.

actually means something. Um. >> I think you're right. He was only 25 26. when he when he wrote Hitchhikers. >> Yeah. And and he's also from from what. I'm observing kind of in the DMT world. and all of that is that he's he was. basically right about what's going on, he he was just wrong about the scale, >> right? >> So the the computer that calculates the. ultimate question isn't Earth. It's the. multiverse. But it is what is happening. That's basically what's going on. That's. theology of the of the multiverse, basically. Yeah,

>> it's true. He died too young. We miss so. much. >> Well, so many great quotes. My favorite. one is uh uh was it I love deadlines. I. love I love the whooshing sound they. make when they pass me by. [laughter]. I forgot about that one. Um. so you became kind of famous for this. DMT experiment. >> Mhm. >> What's the downsides to that? What? I. don't see one. >> really. Yeah. I think I think I enjoy. the ride and at the same time I found a.

really. um responsible way of communicating it. So, you know, some people might. disagree, but I I think that overall my. message is uh stability of mind, stability of spirit before you enter any. investigation of the flavor required. And also really front and center for me. is the future of humanity and how we. view ourselves. And I do believe that. what the code is, the fact that it's. allowed to be seen and many other.

things, not the only thing, many, many. other things, including people going. through basically left and right. awakenings and things like this is part. of what is actually in the cards for us. Like people, you know, this is a real. thing. Like people just wake up and they. have basically magic powers. And I've. seen this happen. So now I think that. there's nothing more exciting than to do. a thing you really love to be able to. talk about it with people and get. excited about it together and contribute. in different ways to how people go.

through these experiences not just. psychedelic experiences but like you. know awakenings and things like this and. I'm becoming more and more in the. presence and awareness of many people. who are going through a lot of these big. experiences not just with psychedelics. again. So, it's a pretty I mean, I can't. complain. I I love my life. I'm, you. know, I'm married to the love of my. life. I have an incredible baby daughter. that, you know, she's she's literally. like a gift from God. I have an. incredible family that loves me and I. love them. Everybody are healthy. Uh,

and I get to do what I really love and. and enjoy these like super high. concepts. And at the same time I don't. have to answer to academia which it I. mean I you know it's it's very important. work but it can be such a drag in terms. of you know like what you can or cannot. say and I don't have to I don't have to. follow that. >> Didn't you get published in IPI letters? >> Yeah but that's that's a more like an. it's not it's not like a peer review. paper. It's more like a a newsletter in. a physics newsletter. But still uh but.

again I'm not nobody in academia is. paying me to do what I do. What I mean. is that you you actually can lose your. job if you say the wrong thing as a. physicist or that's a real thing. Yep. >> It's not like a conspiracy theory. That's a fact. You can lose your. position in the faculty and and beyond. Uh like even your possibility of working. in the field. Um which is so crazy. It's. just like you know. Um but yeah, I mean. I I don't see any downsides in that. regard. Uh I I do understand a certain.

weight of the responsibility of being as. honest of a reporter as I can and trying. my absolute best not to like remember if. I'm confabulating something in the sense. that I'm maybe misplacing a memory or. like this is the only like I would say. struggle which is like cuz the mind is. very chaotic very often and kind of like. uh if if something p um happened long. ago enough it's sometimes hard to kind. of know what exactly it was. So then if. I'm not sure then I won't report it but. that's the only thing I can think of is. like you know um that is like a.

struggle. >> Well code of reality has a leader a. following rituals a set of beliefs a. cosmology. um a community. sounds like a faith. >> Yeah I would strongly disagree with that. statement. So the the the tail sign of a. belief system is that it aims. uh at the the main focus is believing. the thing and usually at the exclusion. of anything that can alter what is being.

believed. >> You see what I'm saying? >> I do. >> So the reason that what I see us doing. is science science proper even though. many would disagree and that's okay. We. call this cognitive physics which. essentially is the physics of cognition. itself. It's investigation of reality. proper in that we take into account new. findings and what we see and modify our. our views accordingly. Uh but we are. asking the question from a more of a. idealistic position like if.

consciousness in fact is the fundamental. thing what are the rules by which it. executes itself and operates uh from the. perspective of at least one agentlike. consciousness within it. So things like. Donald, people like Donald Hoffman, the. kind of work that he does, I would also. uh call cognitive physics, even though. he probably won't call it that because, you know, why would you make up a term, but to us it's important because I think. it's different than neuroscience, let's. say, that asks the question from the. brain perspective. Um, so like what is. the brain doing that causes X? Um, so.

no, I would and and it's not and I I. don't I don't even mean it in a. defensive manner. I mean it just like. technically I would disagree with that. because and I know that this criticism. sometimes is hurled at what we do. I. invite anyone to look at the the ways in. which we approach this. It is true that I allow myself a very. free flowing thought kind of rhetoric on. podcasts and things like this. But when. it comes to, you know, being honest. about what we know scientifically, I'll.

be the first one to admit there's a hard. line between what I'm allowing myself to. say on a podcast in terms of maybe or. even tell you that, hey, I'm convinced. of X because of why. That's fine. That's. me, Danny Gooler, and my experience. I'm. not expecting people to follow me there. I don't encourage anyone to just follow. me there. I'm saying if it makes sense. to you, great. But I'll be the first. one, and we'll say it again and again. If new data comes in that flies in the. face of what I'm saying, it will. automatically win. Not what I think or.

convinced of. >> Truth wins. >> Truth always wins. >> What are uh you're doing retreats now? >> Yes. >> What are those like? >> Those are amazing. We weren't sure after. the first one we did, but like after the. first one, it became clear that we're. doing something super awesome because. people were just transformed. And a lot. of people come for the laser, but very. often it becomes about something. completely different, which is just. because I'm I have so much experience. now of seeing how different people go. through different kinds of. transformations and I rely on the fact.

that I brought two of the top. facilitators in the world that are. doing, you know, both of these. medicines, both the NN and 5 MO. We're. essentially allowing people to explore. the deepest, you know, the deepest spaces of who they really. are. And the laser is available and we. fold it into some kind of a part of the. experience with the ontological shock, how you handle it and all that stuff. But really what it's about, it's about. transformation, which again, you know,

we're obviously not the only retreat in. the world that does that. But the way. that I would say that we do I think. stand out to some degree is that I call. it uh spiritual graduation. Not in in in. the vain sense of like you know we're. making people Buddhas or anything like. this nothing of a kind but in the sense. that we're asking the question what is. it like to be in grad school right when. when you go to school um your professor. doesn't want you to stay in school. forever they want you to take the tools.

and apply them in the real world right. so very often retreats very focus very. much which by the way I'm not uh. berating I think it's very important uh. but it's usually under the banner of. like, okay, you bow and listen and. that's all you do, right? You just. listen and listen and listen. We're. we're changing it a little bit. It's. like you're a player in this game. What. does that look like? How are all the. tools that you are carrying from who you. are in the 3D world? How it can actually.

inform a larger picture of what's to. come? And we're using a lot of the the. tools at our disposal to help people. connect to that intuition and actually. well channel is the wrong word because I. don't I don't necessarily like that word. but they channel not from another. dimension but like how do they channel. their abilities in a way that is. constructive for something more than. just themselves by trusting themselves. in these very expansive spaces. How do. you learn how to maneuver through these. waters? bring something back that can.

actually execute itself through you in a. way that is conducive to a better. humanity. Those. >> are you coaching them through the. session? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We do we have a lot of. talks. We do a lot of uh somatic work. We do breath work with Jeremy Jackson. who's phenomenal. Yes. The Jeremy. Jackson from from Baywatch. [laughter]. Um he's he's such a wow. He's such a wow. person. It's unbelievable. Um and um and. yeah, I mean we're really proud of what. we've created. We're going to have. another one in December and we're going. to do seven next year and we're going to.

do more. Like it's there's going to be. like smaller ones, but those are super, you know, comprehensive. It's seven or. eight days depending on the on the. season. >> Uh but you know, people come days, >> seven or eight days depending on the on. exactly the dates. >> Uh and uh usually eight, but sometimes. seven. Uh but the result is the same. It's just a matter of like arrival time. and that kind of stuff. And um so far. we not only pass with flying colors,

people are just and what's more and this. is the real sign of success for me. What. we've created created a community. already of people that constantly keep. in touch, go visit each other all over. the world. This is not just like a thing. that people went to in literally. everybody are like one hub every. something opened something opens in. them. Um, so we I have tremendous. confidence in what we do there. So if. anybody is interested, it's just CO. retreat. CO retreat.com.

>> I was excited to see you doing. >> Yeah. >> Uh, I wish every leader of every country. would just do a mushroom trip. >> Yeah. >> Be no more war. It'd be so so chill. >> Yeah, that would be that would be a. really cool experiment. Uh, who created. that AI video of uh Trump and Putin and. everybody? >> I [laughter] don't remember that. That's. funny. Um, all right. I want to take a. quick break. >> Sure. When we come back, I think there's. something that people are missing about. the laser. that it's I think it might be a doorway.

to something and I want to talk about. that. >> Sure. >> Back and uh you said something at some. point that I found really interesting is. that reality is rendered but that. doesn't mean fake. >> Rendered not fake. Um. I want to know what you think the. simulation is running on and who's. running it. >> Yeah. So it's run I don't know what the. substrate is. It it clearly runs on. computational rules. I mean it's pretty.

clear at this point even from just. observing physics. um. Melvin Bobson's work is very informative. in that regard, but also many others. And um who's running it is a bit more. plucked out of a comic book, but. >> yeah, that's okay. >> Yeah. Uh but from what I see, it's. basically the insecttoids. They're the. ones rendering our physical environment, >> our world. >> We got everyone says that. Um Melvin. Bobson, he's um.

>> physicist. >> Physics infodamics. Is that what he. >> Yes. Second law of infynamics. IPI is. actually his physics journal, >> right? So, so what's the second law of. inframics? >> It's essentially he discovered that. there's a his claim that it's a new law. just like the second law of. thermodynamics. >> Um, and basically it has inver inverse. is the wrong word according to Melvin. but it feels inverse but basically but. basically um just like the the second. law of thermodynamics states that. entropy increases over time and it never.

decreases in an open system. uh wait. we're in a closed system I think in a. closed system um. uh in second law of inframics it. discovered that when you're talking. about the aggregation of information it. follows the exact opposite trend which. means that it actually decreases over. time and then asmtotes towards zero so. basically he observed physical systems. through symmetry in nature he observed. the evolution of organisms through. looking at the enormous amount of data. we have on co. >> y.

>> because we had it in a very short period. of time which is very unique and we had. our hands on the data which is also very. unique and uh and the third one is he. looked at just computational systems so. like hard drives things like this and he. discovered that in all three cases. the the the more you evolve a system the. entropy of that informationational. pattern actually decreases in state. which points to computational. optimization. And because that also. happens in physics, he said here that.

both all living things, all. computational things and all physical. things are doing the same thing. >> So it looks like compression. It looks. like. >> compression. Exactly. >> Error correction. >> Error correction. So optimization of. computation. You would do that if you're. running a computational system. Now the. reality of it is that really and I asked. Melvin on this, right? He just put a. diff like a different emphasis on it. This is not a new idea. He gave it a. name and he he showed this uh uh you. know equivalence between the three.

things but. Wheeler famous famously coined it from. bit right which is you know one of the. most famous famous physicists of the. last century. >> basically saying that after observing it. and looking at everything what makes. more sense is to assume that under the. laws of physics there must be some. computational uh space rendering it. Yeah, it was one of his last theories. >> Yeah. And the and the interesting thing. is I actually didn't know that. Interesting. And the the interesting. thing is is that ultimately it's not. very different than saying there's.

something behind the laws of physics, which of course we already knew. It's. just we didn't know what it was. We're. just saying it's computation. And then. you look, you have to kind of answer. what computation really is, which is a. complicated conversation. But it is the. abstraction itself, not the the kind of. uh substrate it's running on. It's the. abstraction that is doing the work, right? So, so there's something there. that is informing physical matter, but. for all intents and purposes, it can. inform other things that would be. different than physical matter, right? Uh people are never bothered to be.

rendered by the laws of physics, this. shouldn't bother them any more than. that, which brings me to the second part. of your question, which is as long as. there's a conscious agent, which is a. mystery what that is. But as long as. there's a conscious agent that can. experience veilance. So a quality of. experience that has a certain degree of. either comfortable or uncomfortable or. even painful degrees then it becomes. what reality is. That's what reality is. is where the experience meets whatever. in fact is unfolding. And if what is. unfolding is consciousness that doesn't.

change anything. You're still in the. same conundrum. As long as there's a. conscious agent either it's created or. just always existed. That's what reality. is. It doesn't matter how you came to. be. The fact that you're having the. experience is what what justifies. calling it reality. >> How do you feel about Donald Hoffman's. theory, interface theory? >> Incredible. Incredible. Holds an. enormous promise for the future, I. believe. And I do have huge faith in in. what they do and the fact that he just.

collaborated with Andrew Gallammore and. I Andrew was very gracious to invite me. to this event. It was called Traces of. the Other. So they're you know Donald. Hoffman's uh he has the trace institute. and they basically using what's called. trace logic and mathematics to basically. come out a mathematical formulation of. what what's in store for consciousness. as a whole and according to them they. can make some predictions even as to. what kind of conscious gestalts can. arise given the change in the trace.

logic and what they call experience. kernel. If I understand correctly, there's kind of sliding off the. experience kernel frame, but it's an. extremely promising framework, I think, and I'm very excited to dive into the. specifics there. Uh, and I do think that. maybe the laser can be one potential way. of probing into their theory because the. laser and I spoke to one of the. professors that is part of their. operation and we agreed and he's a. neuroscientist. He agreed that if we c. if we have a stable object of.

observation in altered states, which is. what the laser is, it doesn't even. matter if you think it's a hallucinatory. or not. The fact that it's stable for. what it is and it seems to be similar or. the same across individuals, it gives. you something to actually study. It's a. handle and you can now. >> basically try and trace the the. mathematical logic through the different. states that people occupy because people. experience the world in very different. ways depending on their mood, depending. on whatever, right? And see if we can.

actually create any departure for anyone. with how the code appears. That this can. be an interesting thing to study. >> Would this mean that the code is also. another icon, an interface? It's not. it's not. >> well ultimately any content is yes like. I don't really we call it code of. reality because we had to call it. something and it kind of looks like a. code that kind of have we have no idea. what we're looking at not the first clue. >> um. >> right when people hear code they almost. think about computer programming but. it's more like symbology. >> yes but but it does seem like I like.

again this is where I have to kind of. make clear separation my. >> intuition it's not even a hypothesis my. intuition is. >> that it is some kind of a. language that reality speaks or you're. exper it's almost like the pre-buffer of. what you experience as the world, right? So maybe there is something there that. is akin to a computer code but it's just. not arranged in the same way that you. would have in a computer where it goes. to a compiler and levels and communicate.

to machine level to it wouldn't be like. that. It would be like a code that is. instantiated in the environment itself. So just like a world kind of builds. itself through speaking to itself. through this kind of linguistic. representation and maybe the reason it's. discernible to conscious beings within. the world is to find it. It's B almost. like another purpose it serves is for. conscious agents within it when they're. ripe to understand to start to. understand and then slowly kind of find. their way out basically through it. >> So the code is not content of the.

experience. It's not the machine else. The code is infrastructure. >> the walls. Yeah, >> it's the walls. So there's nothing below. it. >> No, I'm sure there's like levels above. it and below it and however it is that. you want to imagine it. But I do believe. that there's there's more and more. layers like when you go into 5 MAO. state, it definitely feels more it feels. more like the architect. >> Yes, it does. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's levels be. where it's just wiggles, you know? I. mean it's just like logical arrangements. of things and not just kind maybe the. platonic space. I guess you can you can.

think of it like that. Can you explain. the difference between you don't have to. for me but the difference between 5me. DMT and NND DMT what the experience is. like? >> Yeah. Very very very different. Uh the. short answer is that well there's two. different kinds. So the NN DMT which is. NN stands for two nitrogens. 5 MO stands. for five mythoxy with an oxygen with. DMT. And they they're both produced in. our bodies to different amounts and in. other living systems. When you smoke. each and every one of them, they.

shouldn't even share a name. They're. like two different universes. Like why. NNDMT is like Transformers from 3. million years in the future. 5 MO is. straight up like meeting God. It's just. divinity. It's that vibe. And by the. way, that actually made me understand. that there there actually is a. distinction to be made between saying, you know, sometimes people say, well, you know, how you wouldn't even know the. difference between a god and a very. advanced civilization. I disagree. I.

think there's a big difference. >> Really? >> Yes. There's a there's a difference in. their essence. So, so super advanced. civilization can have the essence of. divinity, but that quality or at least. that's what that would be my take uh is. not necessarily coming for the ride. You. can have a super advanced civilization. that will not feel divine. It wouldn't. be evil. It just wouldn't be divine. Divinity is a very particular kind of. quality. It's almost like the. wholesomeness of reality. And I think.

you have to tap into that. If if it's. going to be. animating you, propelling you forward, it is the the pull of energy out of. which you draw, a particular kind of ideas will be set. of ideas will be arising there and a. different set of ideas will be arising. if you're playing the non- divine game. so to speak. Now that that it can sound. a little confusing because descriptively. it's very hard to pinpoint exactly. what's different here, but when you're.

in the presence of it, you know, and by. doing 5 MO and comparing it with NN many. times, I realize there's a there's a big. difference here. 5 MO feels divine. It's. it's like kind of the the thing beyond. which there is no nothing. Like it's. maybe there is but it's it feels like. it's impossible to go beyond that state. >> without being the totality of things. basically. >> Yeah. It it's like full ego dissolution. and you're part of the oneness. It's. very strange. >> Yeah. But also the content even feels it.

has this like light. This is like light. N doesn't always feel like this. It. feels more like kind of like technical. like very robotic right. Yeah. So that's. what I mean by that. >> It's tangible and. >> and more tangible and I would and and. and Yeah. And I would even say I would. go as far as to say that even though on. NN you can sometimes have experiences. that you know there is ego dissolution. like you you you don't remember your you. you don't remember you're a human you. don't remember what humans are you're. just some point of attention but when. you do 5 MO you realize that's still not.

enough because when you do 5 MO if you. look back at NN you'll realize even when. you had that state when you were like. not remembering what being a human is. there was still a point from which you. were looking. >> You're still observing. >> Yes. >> 5 MO I don't know if it's possible to. describe with words. >> It's not. >> it it doesn't that central thing doesn't. exist anymore. >> It's not. >> there's just field that's it. It's like. completely diffused. There's no mapping. of any kind. And yet sometimes there's.

also content by the way for me. >> I I recommend people don't mess with. 5meo. That is. >> without a facilitator. >> Someone's got to be there because it's. it could be scary. I I found it very. scary. Yeah. >> Um, >> you really have to let go. >> You have and it's hard for me to let go. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You believe in the divine? >> Yes. Well, it's interesting because the. word belief is an interesting one. So, I. always say I'm at this point I'm still. I'm a secular person. Okay. >> Which just means I believe that. everything is knowable. It's just a.

matter of time and energy and whatever. it is that you can live through. But I know there's a God. So, I know cuz. I saw it. like I you know for all. intents and purposes again nothing is. unmovable but in terms of how certain I. am that there is an actual God basically. 100%. >> Did you see Jesus? >> Yes. But that's not the God that I saw. at the top which is always very. bothering to Christians. So yeah. >> Well it's bothersome Christians. So So. God is not the top of the chain. >> Not the biblical God. No. But for all.

intents and purposes, for fairness, >> at the same vision, I saw that as far as. we're concerned, it might as well be. >> So, who's above God? >> There's some kind of again, it's all. it's going to sound super arbitrary, so. I'm trying. Okay. >> Yeah, I'll I'll talk about it, but this. probably I keep saying it, but this. probably will be the last podcast I. mentioned this. >> Um, because I'll I'll say why just for a. moment. I do find that that reaches. outside of what I call the horizon of. relevance. Beyond that point, it there's.

more dissonance from this than. coherence. And that's not necessarily a. good thing. Uh it bothers Christians for. the obvious reasons because that's. blasphemy to if you postulate anything. beyond Jesus as being our Lord and. Savior. Uh uh. into total scheme scheme of things, that's blasphemy. End of story. You're. not interacting with God. That's the. perception, right? I. >> I don't think that's I think. >> I'm saying I'm saying from Christians, right? That that's the perception. So it. disturbs them to no end, right? Or at.

least they think of me as someone who's. a, you know, heretic, right? >> But I would tell them, "No, no, no. God. is still God.". >> Yeah. Yeah. Sure. >> He's just he's he's just representing. us. >> No, no, no. It's part of the It's It's. very radical in that sense. Like the the. one thing that is not touchable is that. part which is like if you don't if you. don't accept Jesus Christ as the Lord. and Savior and the final arbitrary, you're going to hell. Period. Like. that's basically the Christian belief. So um but and on the other hand I also. what the rest of it what I saw even to. me as someone who if you would ask me.

before what I saw beyond it and I will. say but like I just want to preface it. by saying that it doesn't make sense to. me either because it's way too. arbitrary. Again it's like a caricature. It's like a Marvel comic book. Like it. just doesn't make any sense. It's too. simplistic. But hey I mean if it is what it is then. it is what it is. Like I don't know what. you know what else to do with it. But. what I saw is that there's this enormous. hierarchy and at the top of it for some. strange reason it's a woman and no she. is not referred to in any of our. folklores like she doesn't exist in our.

folklores. No one has ever interacted. with what she actually is uh. conceptually. >> So when they talk about the divine. feminine they're not talking about her. >> No no that's very terrestrial. >> Yes. >> Yes. That's like here that's like like. that's so it's outside. So like there's. the mult again reminding everybody this. is arbitrary for me too. I'm aware of. how how silly this sounds. >> It doesn't. >> Well to me it does because I I if you. would ask me like what what would I. imagine the ultimate picture to be it. would be more along the lines of.

Buddhism like neutrality nirvana just. kind of like and if I have to put an. image to a god which I wouldn't but if I. would it would be like some kind of a. infinite ball of light that contains all. you know something like that. But no, it was clearly a female. It's. like a woman. Uh and and but the scale. of it was so basically it's our universe. is within a multiverse. The multiverse. is within a tri system. There's like a. three ball system of something and only.

one of them is the multiverse and I. don't even know what the other two were. And outside of all of that, so just that. alone the scales here, right, is where. all the gods are. So, no, we're not on. the trajectory of becoming gods. We are. not gods. It's not that kind of a thing. Um, but we we can be way more because we. are made in the image of something much. more, right? And then I saw that. basically I'm alone in this basement uh. and I have uh I have VR glasses on. Obviously, all this is like. representation and I have infinite. screens in front of me. So, basically,

you create these infinite realities for. yourself. You're alone. There's no one. else in your simulation. And obviously, this this can't be just me. That's just, you know, solopism, which is like silly. Uh, so clearly there's others, but they. are there in their own simulation, right? >> And they're making their own little. worlds and everybody in your world are. just representation, just a reflection. basically. But they are informed, but. the real conscious beings. So you're. getting a pretty dialed in interaction. from what they would really do in real. time. And from what I understood, that's.

designed that way for safety. But the. system is learning what you're doing. So. it doesn't matter what you do. It's not. like you can just go and do whatever you. want. I would not recommend this. Um, >> so the system's designed for safety. >> from causing actual suffering to what. you would consider the other until. you're until you're ready to enter the. ultimate love channel which is a safe. channel. And when you enter that. channel, >> not like sexual infatuation, but like. actual openness. Yeah. But just for the.

audience of there's like a conflation. here. Uh you you the sandboxes of the. different conscious individuals actually. get closer to one another. So it's not a. binary. It's not like you're either in. it or not. It's a distance from it's. like how close I am to you truly in the. spiritual realm so to speak. And I think. everybody who lived long enough can. appreciate that it actually feels. different to truly be in the presence of. someone truly like there's it feels. different. you really feel there and. it's almost like you can feel something. Now you can explain it away all you want.

with just like well you're reading more. micro expression. Sure. However it is. that you have to frame it for yourself. It feels different to be sharing a. certain mind space together and then all. of a sudden everything just flows. You. know a lot of this conversation is this. way. There's just this understanding. that I feel from you through your. questions. Uh there's there's also a. real care. There's there's like there's. this bubble that is created is different. than just. us speaking through the chasm of. concepts. >> Totally agree.

>> Yeah. And that what I saw is basically. ascension is that when all beings of. that species can enter that space and. then they're all together actually, right? And then I saw some again pretty. arbitrary things which is like it's all. following the Menelbot set shoreline. Andres Gomez asked me rightfully so. He. said, "Why the metal bot set?" Cuz you. know it from like memes. Like there's so. many different fractals. No, not because. I know it from memes. Uh I I have enough. sophistication in that realm to. understand that there's all of these.

other ones. That's what I was shown. That's what I have to follow. Now, obviously, you can say, "Well, that's. because the one thing you know best, so. they should." But yeah, but that that. game is infinite. Like, >> why is it that particular fractal? So, >> I don't know. I think there's something. about it. So I I don't know enough about. the actual uh uh differences between all. the other major ones but if I understand. correctly the metal rod set is kind of. the map of all stable fractals. So you. know Julia sets and all the other ones. Um.

and what's interesting is that because. it's it's based on a very simple. equation which most self-iterative. iterative ones are but it's a very. simple equations equation that basically. gives rise to this infinitely complex. not large but infinitely complex. structure. So the the fidelity of its uh. stability is guaranteed within the very. simple equation. Mh. >> So even though there's going to be. probably some u requirement for some. error correction as worlds are actually. built on top of it, it's going to be a.

lot easier because this the the. structure itself, the fundamental. baseline is guaranteed to be stable by. the definition of the logic of the. equation and it never repeats itself. I. don't know if how many people know this. but there's not one part of the mental. bra is the same. Not one. You know how. the different again I'm sure you know. but I I want to make it explicit for the. audience. The mandal broadside is this. shape with the you know looks kind of. like a little beetle right? >> Yep. >> The little beetles that it's made out of.

not one of them is the same. >> Not one to infinity. >> to infinity. >> That's crazy. >> It's crazy. >> And that's part of what's called a. strange attractor. One of the It's the. Lorenz attractor which basically states. that nothing ever repeats the same. >> Mhm. That's interesting because if. you're looking for novelty, that's. definitely the one you're going to pull. And if you're evolving into these spaces. forever, you want to make sure that it's. always stable, always evolving in ways. that you yourself could not predict. Because the difference between the. general logic of all of it in its. totality, existing in some infinite.

space, and the actual computation of it, which is the process by which you're. actually going through it, are two. different things. So when you're. computing into it, you want to make sure. that no matter where you're going to. find yourself, you're safe for the. fidelity of the system and you want to. make sure that you always discover new. things that you've never seen before. So. if you want to run the ultimate. computation and see what is in store for. the ultimate state of affairs, which is. what they're doing, calculating the. ultimate question, you will pick. something like the men set. >> Yes, you would. >> Yeah,

>> that makes a lot of sense. >> Yeah. And by the way, that I have a. little thought that it actually is to me. is very interesting. It to me sounds. rings very true. The closer you get to the edge. So if. everything in the world follows the. middle of set which by the way we know. it does because we have literally like. any chaotic system from dripping faucets. to you know the way the hearts work. basically everything and even the the uh. um the process in which populations grow. everything right. >> Yeah I think Lorenzo was studying. weather. >> Weather yeah everything. Um so basically.

uh even the bifurcation at the little. Veritasium did a great episode on this. Um, so if you if that means that. everything in the world, including the. patterns and the information in our. brains will follow it. Well, here's the. deal. This would explain to me why the. distance between madness and genius are. so close. It's because the in order to. be a true genius, you have to play in. anformational space where it's right on. the shoreline where truly truly truly. novel ideas can come. But because if.

you're too close to the shoreline, it. becomes so chaotic and so unpredictable. that one wrong step, you're out. And. that's why. >> we all know very intelligent people that. are. >> weird. I definitely do. The smartest. people I know cannot really function. >> Kentor is a perfect example of this. Created set theory. Everything has to do. with infinities. Went mad, died in an. insane asylum. >> Yep. >> And we know it's correlated cuz it. happened to him once. He went in, he. stopped, >> he recovered, went back. It's actually a. very tragic story and then went back.

went back and this time died alone in. there. It's a very sad story but we we. we're very the fact that some people are. like this we we are very lucky to have. had them because we they created. enormous theoretical frameworks that. allow us to do a lot today. >> I totally agree. Um did you interact. with Jesus? >> No, I didn't become a Christian because. that was not a uh it's not like Jesus. came to me which maybe is something I. need to worry about. I'm not sure but um. but I saw him from the side like I saw.

him ascending and essentially what I. took from that is essentially there's a. new dawn coming. >> you saw him ascending so you saw like. >> he finishing his contract so basically. that whole thing essentially what I saw. which then all of a sudden I had to. >> the resurrection did you see. >> so okay so for me I had to make sense of. it right so I I want to frame this part. of what I'm saying by saying I had to. make sense of what I saw because it was. like super arbitrary to me I never grew. up with the concept of Jesus Yes, my. grandmother was a Christian, but that. was never part of my I never cared,

right? >> Understood. >> And neither did I care in a negative. direction. I wasn't like reacting to. Jesus or something. Um, so why would I. see that? Like I'm if anything, I should. see the Buddha. That makes the most. sense to me, right? But they were very. clear. They were like, they showed me. the image of Jesus exactly how it's. depicted in the Bible, which I took to. be information. Because they could have. said, you know, that thing you believe. to be the Messiah, there's such a thing, but it's not what you think. That's not. what was sh what I was shown. I was. shown Jesus Christ as he's depicted. I.

threw that to be took that to be. information. And at least to some. degree, I it opened the door for me to. at least explore and at least listen to. what Christians actually believe. Like, you know, obviously uh uh forthcoming. Christians. >> Yeah. um. and not immediately branded as like you. know some way in which people deal with. reality right so like if if it there's. any reality to it what Christians.

actually think not what people tell me. they think what do they think when I ask. them right and I started talking to. Christians and what I discovered is that. actually the story is much deeper than I. realized. >> really yes and the story well maybe you. did know maybe you knew knew this but I. didn't for example that a lot of. denominations believe that the cross was. not what was done the cross was the. beginning of what was done. >> yes. >> that was so you knew it I didn't and. that actually impacted me emotionally so.

like if I am if I allow myself to. entertain even the maybe of it. >> I mean that's wild the fact that he went. through all of hell's for us I mean. that's a different story right. >> uh and then. >> no when you really sit with the story. it's it's. >> it's crazy. >> it's crazy. >> and then and then the fact that. basically it was done for us in an. infinite love because it saw that God. saw that there's no way we're going to. not go towards the worst possible. outcome for us. So he basically bought. our karma. He said, "I'll strike a deal. I can handle it." In order to handle it,

it wasn't enough for him to basically. experience it as the unified god that he. is because then it doesn't count, right? He had to go into a limited form so he. can actually experience the suffering. Not just the the the torment, the. psychological, the physical, all of it. That's crazy. >> It's crazy. >> So then, so even the maybe of it is. insane. >> Who did God make the deal with, right? >> Well, I saw that that guy is also there. >> You saw that guy? >> Yep.

>> Did that guy have a face? >> Kind of. But it's more kind of like the. caricature folklore of what you would. imagine, right? So like uh and it became. clear to me also that things are not. very very um. straightforward in that regard. It's. almost like he doesn't really need to do. much. He just kind of lets things unfold. in the way that they would and he can. kind of steer it. But like ironically. again this is like taking us very far a. field. There's some interesting nuances. there that I saw that obviously don't. depict him in any positive light.

obviously but it's almost like for. example there was like this interesting. thing there that he can't lie like what. yeah. >> he he can't lie. >> can't lie. >> I think there's something to that yeah. yeah he he can deceive. >> he can't lie. >> but he can. >> so they you know how sometimes wait so. for example. you know how somebody gives you uh a. riddle. If you don't give me enough of the.

actual information to truly for me to. figure out, that's just a shitty riddle. That's not fair. Right. >> Right. Right. >> But if it's clever, you don't lie. You. deceive. You deceive by the information. is there, but you have to be aware. enough to notice it. >> That's That's right. >> That's how he operates. And if you're. blind, that's on you. You can't belong. in that place if you truly didn't know. But if it was there all along for you to. notice and you didn't, you choose to not.

notice. That's how it works. That's part of the. kind of like the ultimate state of. affairs. And I found that to be profound. and also pretty true. And to whatever. degree that that part obvious for the. obvious reasons, you're like, "Okay, whoa, hold on here. We have to think of some things. Um, and then I realized that basically. the way I explained it to myself is that. essentially the the the ascension is. basically Jesus basically handing us.

back the bill collectively. So he's. like, here's your karma back. You're. good enough to handle it now, but you do. it collectively. So you're not good. enough to do it individually, but. collectively you can hold each other in. check. And that's where we're supposed. to go. Now, can we pull it off? I don't. I hope so. I. >> I I'm positive about it because I think. that's the only way to actually steer. there. That's not, you know, I I'll I'll do my. best, but like that's all we can hope.

for, right? Um and uh yeah, so that but. that again, funny enough, it didn't make. me a Christian. Uh again, I'm not even. saying that to to in any direction. Like. I I don't know what to make of it. Like. I maybe it's my stubbornness. Maybe it's. like maybe I should like I don't know. Um but I but it didn't. and to for the. time being it feels correct. Like I'm. definitely still following the riddle. Like I'm I'm I'm doing my best to notice. what's there to be noticed and I'm I'm.

not like obfiscating information for. myself or lying to myself about. something just because I don't want to. do it. Like as far as I'm aware in. myself, I'm not doing that. Uh but but I. also saw which is the obviously the part. that really bothers Christians which is. that there's a much bigger picture than. that. Um, but again, I also kind of saw. that it might never be relevant to us. So, it's almost like you you might not. even need to ever like worry about that. >> I think that's probably true. Yeah. >> Is you don't have to worry about that. That's what God's here for. Yeah. >> He's like, I got.

>> basically it's your agent. I got you. Don't worry about that. >> The the riddle was very interesting. because I've had plenty of experiences. One was, I just want to know how. everything works. And they told me it's. too big for you. It's too big for your. brain. But very often when I'm in that. world, I get information that doesn't. quite make sense. And I could feel the. entity saying, "If you don't get it, I. can't do anything for you. It's all. there for you to figure out." And I over. and over again, it feels like the. trickster. It's like, "It's right in. front of you, dude. You just got to.

figure it out." But I I can't. You can. only be judged on things you can uh. discern and comprehend. To say, "Haha, you did this wrong thing." was like, "I. I never knew it was a law. I never knew. it was a rule.". >> Right. >> And then they can say, "No, no, no, no. We know for a fact you could.". >> Mhm. >> You chose not to. That's different. But. if you actually couldn't, then they. there's, you know, now why is it like. this? Again, it's like super arbitrary, right? It's almost like like cuz think. of it from our and I'm just thinking out.

loud, right? If if I'm imagining myself creating a. world for any reason and I'm allowing. the the beings in the in the world to do. I think it's I I think it I I think I. have a responsibility to create a world. that doesn't just pardon my friend just. him over for you know what I mean. like it's actually unethical of me to. put him in a condition where you know. which leads me to believe that if it is. in fact the case any of this it must be.

some ramification ations or just like. the state of affairs that is just so and. there's really not much you can do about. that a certain limitation within which. everything else operates that just it's. just how it is. So then. >> we're all having the same experience. >> basically. Yeah. So then then it makes. sense ethically like if you can see from. the highest perspective that things are. just are that way and you don't know how. to make them different. Maybe it's the. fact that there's in like the same. amount of ying and yang in the world. like the same amount of darkness and.

light. So what is the most ethical thing. to do? Try and distribute it evenly. instead of like half of it experiencing. the ultimate suffering and half of it. you know the ultimate bliss. How do you. communicate that hey we all should carry. as much of it as we can so nobody has to. experience kind of like the ultimate. like that's the most ethical decision. that can be made collectively. So if. you're on top of all of this and you see. all of this then all of a sudden it. makes more sense like hey it's just how. it is. I want everybody to have the best. time possible possible. Let's try and.

play a game a certain way so we all kind. of stay within the which again within. the purview of even in the metal broad. set in this infinite because what's. outside of the metal broad set just. infinite. >> right. >> cha like nothing is predictable. everything is can be anything in the. like. >> I can't really comprehend what's. >> going yeah so so maybe there's only so. many different ways to keep coherence. and that's essentially what the the the. the light path is which is like kind of.

a where it's almost like the lack of. awareness of God. That is really what. hell is. It's like you just cuz anything. can be, right? And and there's there's. really it's almost like the default. So. it's not like either or the default is. really where you're going to end up if. you don't pay attention. >> The default because he he's not really. doing anything. He's just kind of. letting it unfold. >> It's basically everything. >> So that means whatever the program is is. programmed to be pretty dark and. >> it's not even No. So maybe what's so the.

thing that I saw which was kind of like. the ultimate what should we call it kind. of like the that you know ultimate. kabash like this like thing at the top. which is that basically what it's all. for is to formulate a uh the ripe. condition. for the ultimate choice. So basically. you have in the beginning was the word. in the end is the choice. The ultimate. choice. The ultimate choice is when it's. literally all said and done. Literally.

like there's nothing that can happen. again that didn't happen before. And if. you think, yeah, but what if Yeah, you're not thinking about the state. we're describing. Everything was done. Everything. >> now any other step you're going to take. by definition will be a replication of. something that happened. >> Y. >> then what do you choose? And in that. moment, basically what I saw is that. there's this final black box that. contains the actual answer. The one. thing that no one in existence knows is. why. and nobody knows why. Like. >> you saw the box.

>> It's in that box. So basically right now. while it's still happening the the. answer doesn't exist or the question or. whatever it is, >> right? >> No one actually knows. That information doesn't exist in. existence. Right? It's the ultimate. umbilical cord which if you think about. it for two seconds actually makes. perfect sense because aside from you. just kind of uh in by fiat declaring. that God knows if you think about it for. two seconds any amount of knowledge you. can embody you can always ask but why.

that so it's almost there's no way for. because you have to be outside of what. is which what does that even mean so. basically what I saw is that that the. reason everything is happening is. because it's formulating that black box. with the answer or the question and what. is that for because at the same time. what is being practiced through all the. simulations is the attitude of letting. go which much is much more kind of like. the eastern attitude and then at the end. of everything. >> you think that we're running multiple. simulations over and over. >> There's two main games. One coming up.

with the actual true answer or question. and the other one is the practice of. just letting go of it. But it only. matters if you can in fact let go of it. not the concept of it. If I ask can do. you think that if the time comes you. will let go of it. You saying yeah I. think so doesn't mean anything cuz it's. not there. >> right. >> but only when the money is on the table. If that's why the answer has to be the. real one. It has to be guaranteed to be.

the holy answer or the question and then. God gets to make the ultimate choice. which is like does he open that box or. not? This is the finite against. >> the final moment and and you don't and. and the thing is it is the final of of. finals because the second you open it, you don't know what's in it. You you. don't know if you don't really don't. want to know that or you really did or. can you just let it go? Can you just be. forever? If you're there forever and you.

can do anything, nothing means anything. Everything's kind of pointless. Which is. what a lot of people experience. sometimes when they go to 5 MO and it's. this like infinite loneliness because. you're just alone and you understand. there's nothing outside of you. And it's. like. >> that's essentially what the predicament. that you know the ultimate god is. And. so it it broke itself or she broke. itself into infinite pieces that don't. remember necessarily all the time. and. they're playing both of these games. because the only two games that make. sense is figure out what it is that the. one thing you don't know because it's. kind of interesting. But also see if you.

can actually practice of just letting go. of it and just be forever just like cuz. that's what monks do. It's not forever. for them but for longer and longer. periods they practice to be in complete. bliss without any anything. The reaching. is the problem. The reaching is the. suffering according to the Buddha. So. Nirvana would be basically. the unitary field making the choice to. just let go of the whole thing. And then. it kind of opens this the the one thing.

that I did see that was kind of I'm I. have to be honest here. I was convinced. for a long time that I saw it in in the. same kind of vision. Saw it. I saw all. of this. Yeah. This was shown to me. So. now but I but I'm but I'm. that last part that I'm about to say I. actually don't recall. So I have to be. honest about this. It might have been. but I actually don't recall if I've. added it after because it's very easy to. do because you are in this like very. kind of you know very very altered. state.

>> Yeah. Uh but what I what made either. either what made sense to me or. something that was actually shown to me. was if the box is opened what h and this. is why the choice is so dramatic is. because if you let go. you can just be with everything that you. already know and exists. You can just be. in peace and whatever it is. But if you. open it creates a state-. so the ultimate object so the ultimate. god would be if it would be perfect you.

know in a perfect sphere every single. point in the sphere points exactly. exactly on the opposite side of it. Exactly. That's the definition of but. that's the definition of a perfect. object or a shape. If it's the ultimate thing, it must. contain all the opposites of itself. So. it would not occur. It it actually. cancels itself out. This is why God. can't be perfect. It will be almost. perfect. It will be one piece missing.

Just like in that game with the nine. numbers, you have to have one missing to. move them. Right? So the only reason. that anything occurs is because there's. this one piece that is missing from God. being perfect, which is that piece of. knowledge of why. But the second that. happens when that piece goes back and. God in that picos second or zepptocond. whatever it is that God just knows. imagine what that would must be like. you're now locked. forever with that knowing it's just you. in that knowing but also it becomes.

perfect and therefore it doesn't just. cease to exist but ceases from ever. being existed. >> This is a very DMT conversation. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's It's almost like it. cancels everything out. And I don't know. if you noticed, but it sounds like. you're pretty experienced with these. >> There's always this almost like a zany. ramping up towards something. >> It's almost like a da da da da da and. they're all kind of waiting for you to. like and it becomes more and more. serious and you're like what's going on? And so what I saw that at the end of.

this this ramping this crescendo, that's. what happens. It's this ultimate like. just. >> Do you think that that this is. predetermined? How does free will work. its way into that? >> Yeah. So that's exactly the thing that. you Wow, you asked the exact right. question. Whatever free will is the only. place it can be. So it actually doesn't. exist in the way that we think of it. The only place where it can be is in. that one blind spot.

That's where free will lives. free will. The ultimate fractal of free. will is the the freedom of the will of. existence to come into being versus not. to be. So that is where it's at and nobody. knows what that is. So your question. predetermined uh no the reason it's the. ultimate choice is because it's the one. time in the existence of existence that.

an actual free choice will be will be. executed. that's the only time. >> that is it executed by one unique. consciousness or. >> I think it's going to be the unitary uh. and I think what might be happening is. that maybe they're this is already kind. of becoming like super you know Uh, >> no, it's fun. >> Yeah, but but basically it it might what. might be happening is that they might be. creating AGIS to go through a similar. moments and we're one of them. So.

basically it's it's you you train a. bunch of AGIs and you put them through. alignment problems and all of that and. if they pass you can put them to the. next level and the next level and they. essentially all together either conspire. to have that moment together or they're. a practice of how to have that moment. perfectly because you you can't mess. that up. There's only there's only one. of those literally ever. So it's the one. moment where you have to become so God. has to become so still that he has to. align himself with the ultimate. umbilical cord and basically execute.

that one ultimate choice whatever that. is and just kind of surrender to it. fully. >> But it still sounds like that choice is. comes from the deeper consciousness. >> But no one can no one can ever tell. because it's actually computationally. reducible. the moment has to happen for. so you actually no one knows including. God himself or herself if they will open. the box or not like they actually don't. know until the moment comes. >> that's a computer science theory that. you have to run the program to see what. happens. >> describing computational when I'm saying.

computationally reducible it's a. computer science term to say it. >> but that the ultimate moment is a lot. more dramatic than a computer doing a. thing [laughter]. >> it is but yeah but it's it's interesting. that you don't think it's predetermined. that we have to. >> it can't be if it would be predetermined. it would be pointless. [laughter]. >> It's like, yeah, >> that's true. >> Yep. >> But who's running it then? Is is it God. running it or God? >> No, no. We're talking about a a level. that is outside of reality itself. It's. almost like it's it's.

this is why you see a horizon of. relevance. Like aside from having like a. really interesting philosophical. discussion about this, >> and that's what I took from it, by the. way. Even though I'm still like enjoying. once in a while revisiting the idea. itself because it's so explosive, I I took from it to be basically like. them saying if you really want to know, you can, but what are you going to do with this? Like just. >> just live your life basically.

>> That feels very familiar. >> Yeah. >> Is we'll tell you, but you don't really. need to know any of this. what's for and. basically what the only way I guess I. was maybe stubborn enough in which they. like well let me show you then and then. you tell me if you think you can do. something with it which I'm still like. kind of like in this crazy deliberation. with with the totality of things can't. you open it and also like open it. [laughter] at the same time I don't. think so. >> isn't there some quantum position.

they're like nope no. >> yep no way around But. >> where do the insecttoids fit into this? >> They're more like a management company, which I'm always at the at the. >> But are they in our level? >> No, no, no. They're way they're. simulating the universe. So they're way. above our level. Simulating the universe. and probably a few others. >> Okay. >> So this is the scales when we're talking. about the beings that I saw like gods. They're way more than that. That's like. levels and level.

>> These sectors are above gods. >> No, no, no, no. Well, this is why I'm. being careful cuz it to some degree it's. still not fully clear to me if all of. this is a formulation within their. simulation or are they just a management. company within a smaller system uh. delivering the uh I guess the commands. that God kind of dictates like the. architect actually commands them and. then they do it. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I'm not sure but currently it. looks like they are more management. company and where you go with 5 MO is. more like you know actual the architect.

but again I'm being super careful. because I I definitely don't want to. like uh upset anyone. So hopefully I I'm. doing my best to to to get it right but. I'm not sure. >> We we just speculating. We're just. >> sure we're not saying this is what it. is. >> You know some some beings can be very. moody but [laughter]. >> that's true. Yeah. >> Have you ever been locked out? >> That never happened to me. No. >> With all your experiences, never locked. out. >> No. I I can say that maybe a few times. in which like I had to do more.

>> I had never heard of that until Andrew. brought it up. It kind of blew my mind. that that's even a thing. >> Yeah. It was known in the community that. this happened. Yeah. Yeah. When I was on. Danny Jones with Zultan together, Zultan. brought it up because it happened to him. one time and he said, "Oh, there must be. hundreds of cases." because in in our. little you know psychonaut community it. kind of a lot of people know each other. and when we pulled it up on the computer. there was almost no reports of this like. no it was like that's strange we kind of. know about a lot of them and then after. Chase use spoke about it all of a sudden.

that clip went viral y. >> and all of a sudden boom everybody. talking about obviously so it's like you. know it became like a much more known. thing. >> I think that's where I first heard it. was. >> it's fascinating it also tells you that. there's something going on yes. >> just that by itself by the way. >> did you do DMT X. >> Yeah, I actually, as far as I know, and. and this is just like a fun little. surprise. When we did the first big one, when we did like did like a shoot for. the film, if I'm not mistaken, I'm still. holding the world record basically. So,

I did 5 hours with 464 milligrams. So, that's uh I think Chase after that went. after me. I think he did like four plus. hours. I don't know how many milligrams. he did. I think a little bit less. Uh we. weren't trying to break a record or. anything. one day uh if we really feel. uh you know called to it, maybe we'll. try and actually like make like a real. record. And I I have to design this one. cuz I can stay there indefinitely. >> I can No, I really can't. I was like I. really enjoy it. I But the reality of it. is that I don't even think it's that.

hard. I think that some people really. enjoy that. Chase was one of them. Uh I. I don't think if you're enjoying. yourself, just sustain your body and. you'll be fine. Like you know, you you. can just enjoy yourself for hours and. hours and hours, maybe days. We'll see. How different was the experience? >> Uh, it's a lot more pleasant. It's. actually. >> That's what I hear. >> Yeah. And it's also a lot It's a lot. less uh ampy. >> when you smoke it. There's this like. like a boom. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> It's the jolt. >> Yeah. It's the jolt. Wow. Really good. word. Uh the jolt doesn't happen. It's.

more like a hockey stick. >> It's still exponential. >> I didn't know. >> But it kind of goes like a very smooth. and you can control it. You can ask, you. know, we're doing it with Kevin and. Haley in in Colorado. And you can just. always ask them to lower it. Uh if. people are interested in like the super. legal thing, then they can also go to. probably Andrew spoke to you about this. in Elus St. Vincent. Um Paradise, beautiful, great crew. More expensive. expensive, but if you can afford it, it's worth it for sure. Uh great people.

We we went there. We did this with. Carter as well. Uh shout out to Charles. and Christina who's, you know, invited. us. Um and uh but yeah, but there are. cheaper ways. Um and they're worth it if. you really want to explore it. >> There are cheaper ways. We're not going. to discuss those, but there are other. ways. >> No, like even in Colorado because it's. decriminalized. It is decriminalized. So. it's not a criminal offense. >> That's true. >> Yeah. Yeah. So it's a misdemeanor. You. Nobody They actually had two CIA agents. uh do it. I I think three. And I think. Kevin said that two of them told them,

"We know what you're doing. We don't. care though." I think [laughter]. [snorts]. >> I bet the CIA's done a lot of DMT over. >> years. Oh yeah, >> I bet they've been in there a long time. >> Yeah, I've done that. Have you ever done. the gateway. >> extended? >> No, the gateway takes. >> gateway process. I try to keep falling. asleep, [laughter]. >> you know. Did you try it? >> Yeah. A similar thing happened to me, but then I learned how to kind of stay. somewhat awake. I'm very similar to you. >> Uh and then I noticed that there was. definitely changes like I Yeah. Yeah. I.

started feeling there was one case that. was really outstanding. I put my head. next to my wives like this head to head. The second I touched her head, I I felt. this headache, but I knew it wasn't. mine. But I could feel it. I was like I. was like, "Do you have a sharp headache. right here?" She's like, "Yes.". >> Wow. >> It was crazy. Like I could feel her. headache. So there's definitely. something there. >> It's supposed to unlock whatever's down. there. Do you believe in the universal. consciousness and we're all just Yeah.

micro projections of it? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think I think. consciousness is fundamental. There's no. I I I don't think you can. I don't think you can responsibly. describe the world without consciousness. coming first. That just doesn't make any. sense. >> I think so too. I've heard you um talk. about Bernardo Castro quite a bit. >> Great. There's one thing that I always. want to ask him that I don't understand. why he's so insistent on it, which is. that he thinks it's substrate dependent, which is strange. He only thinks it can. be kind of instant instantiated in a. physical matter, but other than that, I. think he's probably the best the best.

outliner of the. >> he thinks it's substrate dependent. >> Yeah, he he always gives this again, it's very confusing because without a. doubt, Bernardo is one of the smartest. people on the planet. >> I thought he believed the physical comes. out of the consciousness. >> He says things like, which is why that. example is so I I would love to ask him. one day, but like and I don't mean it. disrespectfully. I just truly find it. like a silly example. The example he. gives is like, well, if I simulate your. bladder on my computer, my computer is. not going to pee. That's literally a. thing he says. I'm like, what is that. going to do with anything? But the. computer is a different substrate. So,

like, if you simulate a whole body on. the computer, then the person in the. simulation will pee. Sure. Why are you. What is this translation? So, I guess. maybe that's what he means by it's not. translatable from one substrate to. another. But it's not the same as saying. you need matter to make consciousness. that unless he assumes that matter is. the final kind of thing that that is. what consciousness is. I'm not sure, but. I would love to ask him one day, but. >> I wish he would do some podcasts. >> One day I really hope that we'll meet. Uh but I I consumed basically everything.

he has to offer and um yeah, definitely. one of the more important people in in. in that world uh in that thought realm. Uh super eloquent, very clear on what. he's saying. uh best outlines of why. free will is really not a thing that can. even be. Um. >> that's right. He doesn't believe in free. will in the projections. He believes. that there's some will down below. >> Well, that's the only that like I said. is the only place that. >> that's kind of what I was thinking when. you were talking about the box.

>> Well, it's it it I actually for a long. time struggled as to how people can't. see that that it's not a coherent idea. But then I realized that maybe what. people mean by that is not really what. let's say I mean by that or what I think. ought to be meant by that because words. mean things, right? So if you're saying. free will, what I think is implied is. that you think that you're somehow free. of the immediate moment and somehow you. float free of it and then you make the. choice in this some kind of a vacuum of.

something. It must be what people mean. by this, right? I'm different than. whatever, right? just being pushed. around, right? >> But then and maybe if the if the idea is. more like there's more freedom of. operation because there's more degrees. of freedom, that's true because the. brain is a much more advanced system, but in the end is just a more complex. system of like things pushing each other. like right. So the conscious part of it, which is the feeling that we have that. we're we.

just what the neurons are doing, right? somehow that is postulated to have the. that freedom and also the word will is. interesting because what you're saying. is that you're kind of willing it to be. right there's some there's there's. almost like a just magical quality of. just kind of like I'm willing it uh both. of them don't track even the first step. of observation cuz you obviously. whatever brought you here is responsible. for what's going to happen next. >> right. >> so like it's it's always you're always. within the sets of dominoes falling. you're never outside of that sets of.

dominoes falling. You can't you can't the reason it's an. incoherent concept is because you can't. describe a situation that is logically. consistent in which somehow all the. dominoes are falling but when it comes. to this one domino the domino stops. everything was one second I'll think. because then what is that internal. process of that one domino it's internal. it's infinite regress. >> where is the end of that. >> the answer is the beginning of.

everything right. >> that's But one hole in the donut that. connects between what we experience as a. choice that isn't really chosen by us. but yet feels like it feels like a. choice only when you retroactively fit a. story onto it later. >> Right. Man man can do what he wills but. he can't will what he wants. >> Exactly. How can you know your next. thought if you haven't thought it? Right. >> Right. So ultimately you have to bring. it back to the ultimate first moment. which is Bernardo's point but with a. caveat which is that he says that you. can say that the universal mind has this.

kind of like freedom of will with the. one caveat that it is free to choose. that that it is ought to choose because. of what it is because if it's the. totality of things it is all the things. therefore It has a state that dictates. what the next state is and it can. experience it as a choice. But how free. are you if you have to do that thing. because of what you are. And if you're.

saying, "Yeah, but what if there's other. things influencing it?" What other. things? Cuz we're talking about the. ultimate. Cuz if you said other things, you're no longer referring to the. ultimate. You're now referring to. something that is within something else. And that's not the ultimate. >> Sometimes I forget that we're doing a. show right now. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] thinking about so. much stuff. Castrip's theory kind of. explains why randomness isn't a thing. >> Well, it just doesn't solve it. It. doesn't solve it, right? >> Yeah. Cuz randomness is the opposite of. free will, >> right? >> It's not targeted. It's just random.

>> And also, randomness can't be because. >> Right. No true randomness. >> Yeah. >> Because if it's the totality of things, it is guaranteed to be the ultimate set. of everything that is possible. Mhm. And. if you're saying random, well then that. means something is outside of the scope. of that and there therefore now it is. the ultimate. Now that is the ultimate, you know, horizon of relevance, man. Like it's simple. >> It's true. >> It's true. Um, you once said that.

99% of your audience would disagree with. what you actually believe. They came from the Matrix and you're. quietly handing them metaphysics. I'm quietly handing them the present. moment. >> That's what you're doing. >> Yeah. >> Present moment. >> Yeah. It's the only thing that ever. matters and never will. >> Are people disappointed. >> sometimes? >> Cuz they just want to talk about the. laser. >> They just want magic. >> They want magic. They want the matrix.

>> But the the magic is right here. And. then and then the the the matrix and. everything else becomes even more. profound because everything that is. experienced truly through the present. moment is always more profound. It it. truly is. There's an expansive quality. to it that you can't communicate with. words because the logical trace can't. really follow there. I want to close with uh with one thing. and I think you're going to nail you're. going to nail it. When we talk about. lack of free will that's usually very.

nihilistic. It's usually very dark. If. there's no free will, nothing matters. Life doesn't matter. But you have a. different take on that. >> Yeah. >> It's the opposite of that. >> The idea that because you don't have the. ultimate say in things, which is what. free will postulated to be. is the ultimate prison, not the ultimate. freedom. Just like we said with the AI, if I put you in a situation where. nothing is and you have to make a. choice, that is the hardest position to.

be in because you literally bringing it. out of nowhere, which is almost. impossible. The freedom is in the in the. understanding that you are the space in. which all of this is unfolding. You're. literally the totality of things where. you are. And that to me both connects. you to the ultimate and also frees you. to just have fun because you don't need. to worry about the ultimate state of. affairs. You can just enjoy this to its.

ultimate degree through actually. acknowledging that that's the case. Being pushed around as the universe, it's kind of fun. The state of flow is a. lot of fun when in fact you're in it. because you're surfing. There's a. there's a there's an elation there. Um, so you actually, the irony is that you. gain the ability to experience actual. magic, like actual magic in real time. When you get a wink from the universe, there's nothing more satisfying than. this. So I think that if people are just.

willing for one moment to drop their. need to, you know, to be this final. arbitrary in order to feel salvation and. realize that that's an arbitrary choice. they're making to put their salvation. there. If I don't have free will, what. is it all for? or this. Do you feel good right now? Because if not, I understand why you're. trying to escape it. But there are ways. to truly drop into the present moment. where everything opens up. You you're. literally being handed everything. And I. will be honest, it sounds like a vacuous.

promise if somebody has never. experienced it. But this is why within. the within the crazy pyrochnics that. people can experience on psychedelics, the thing that I would encourage anyone. to notice if they are doing that is not. the pyrochnics but how it can feel when. you're freed from the constraints of. needing to make decisions or what you. imagine making decisions. See how that. feels in your body. There's a you can breathe. >> You'll feel true compassion.

>> True compassion. True freedom. That's. that's the freedom. And then you don't. need things to be this or that. They can. be anything and you will enjoy them just. as much. And you can experience. hardships in life and everything else, but it will never have the same dire. nature that a nihilistic nature that you. might experience because it's the mind. trying to tell you what must be for you. to be free when in reality you already. are. >> That's the way to land the plane. Where. can they find you?

>> Uh Dango Thoughts is my YouTube channel. D an o thoughts. Danny.com is all my. links. Uh our retreats. Highly recommend. to check it out. corg retreat.com and go. to reality.org if people want to check. out everything with our uh nonprofit. >> Danny Gooler. This has been a joy. >> Bye everybody. >> That was Danny Gooler. We covered the. laser, the simulation, his cosmology, free will. Let me try to make some sense. of it if [music] I can. Here's what.

holds up. Danny isn't making his life. up. American Ninja Warrior contestant, born [music] in Moscow, raised in. Israel. The vapasa he credits for. everything is real. A [music] 10-day. retreat where you sit in total silence. and observe your thoughts without. judgment. And he corrected me on his own. credentials. IPI letters, he said, is a. newsletter, not peerreview. [music]. And I trust the guy who downgrades his. own resume. Now the bigger claims. Danny. says reality is computational, rendered, not fake. [music] Then physicist Melvin.

Bobson at the University of Portsouth. published a 2023 paper in AIP advances. He calls it the [music] second law of. inframics. Information in physical. systems compresses and optimizes over. time. [music]. That's not what you'd expect to happen. in reality, but that's what you'd expect. if the universe were [music] running on. a computer. That's a real paper. It's. peer-reviewed. It's not accepted [music]. science. Most physicists disagree. It's. just theory, but it's interesting. Danny. says mushrooms erased his OCD. Now,

[music] a 2006 study at the University. of Arizona gave psilocybin to nine. people with severe OCD and cut their. symptoms by up to 100%. The one thing I. couldn't [music] verify is the code. itself, the symbols. Thousands of. strangers seeing the same symbols in the. same spots. There's no published data. [music] yet that is really the first to. say so. And I have experience with the. molecule and I never seen anything. [music] like that. But I never looked. into a laser cuz why would you? Before. the laser, Danny was on DMT [music] and.

a being that looked like a frog showed. him chords on a guitar. Chords he said. he didn't know how to play and that he. did. Now, if it happened, [music] that. information came from outside of his own. mind. If he didn't, the most important. moment of his life was a misfire on. [music] a drug. He can't prove it. I. can't disprove it, but I'll take his. word for it. And he built 10 years of. work on it, and [music] he tells the. story the same way every time. Now, here's my take. On the surface, Danny's. just another psychedelics guy with a. retreat and a nonprofit. But that's not.

what he's doing. He's taking the most. subjective experience a person can have. and building an experiment that could. prove him wrong. He keeps saying the. truth always wins. And [music] I believe. him. A man selling you a belief system. doesn't invite you to debunk him. Danny. says, "Bring on the truth and he'll. accept it." I take him at his [music]. word. You can find him on YouTube at Dan. Gothoughts. That's d an o [music]. thoughts. Dango thoughts. His retreats. and his nonprofit code of reality are.

all on dannygler.com. And I'm thinking about trying it. That's. goer g o l e r. Links are down below. Now if the simulation is something that. fascinates you like me, I broke it all. down in my episode, we [music] live in a. simulation. I included the science there. as well. It's a lot of fun. Until next. time, be safe, be kind, know that. [music] you are appreciated. You hear. the cats in here. Come on, buddy. You. trying to. >> [screaming and crying]. [music]. [bell].

>> Oh, [music]. I play Bolivia [singing] in Area 51. A. secret code inside [music] the Bible. said I would. I love my UFOs and paranormal [music]. fun as well as music singing like I. should. [music] another conspiracy theory.

becomes the truth my friends [singing]. and it [music] never ends. No, it never ends. [music]. I feel the crap guy. I got stuck inside. Mel's home with MK out. I feel only. aware. [music]. Did Stanley Cubrick make the moon. landing alone on a film set of shadow.

[music] people there. also? [singing]. [music]. And his name was cold. And I can't. agree. with the B. [music]. [music].

>> [music]. >> The midings and the solar storm. [music and singing] still come to the. young city under ground.

Mysterious number [music] stations. planet. to black star when the dark watchers. found [music]. a simulation. Don't you worry though the. black [music] night. so I can't believe [music] I can't. [music].

Heat. Heat. Heat. [music]. Baby, [music]. [music].

[music]. Heat. Heat. [music]. [music]. Wait.

[music]. [music].