The Basement: Andrew Gallimore | DMT Didn't Take You Somewhere New — It Unlocked What's Always There

Today we're talking with Dr. Andrew. Gallimore. He's a Cambridge trained. chemist and neuroscientist and he spent. 30 years studying one molecule, DMT, what he calls the world's strangest. psychedelic. Many people report meeting. entities when using DMT and Andrew has a. theory about them that's not exactly. mainstream. He writes about this in his. book, Death by Astonishment. >> Death by Astonishment. Finally a cause. of death that isn't fell out of a window. after questioning the official story of. the CIA.

>> He thinks the beings people meet on DMT. might not be who's nations, they might. be real, alive, sentient, and living in. another dimension. And he makes a pretty. good case because there are people who. take DMT for years and then one day a. creature waves a finger and says, "You're not welcome here." It's called a. lockout and some people stay locked out. for years. >> I wish that a machine elf had bouncers. I better be respectful next time I'm in. a machine elf champagne room, huh?

>> Today we're covering where DMT comes. from, what it does inside your brain, and a new theory he built with cognitive. scientist Donald Hoffman. It connects. the whole thing to consciousness itself. After our conversation, I'll come back. with a little quick analysis, but until. then, grab a brain bucket because this. one goes deep. Let's go down to the. basement. Dr. Andrew Gallimore, welcome to the. basement.

>> Good to be here, A.J. Thank [laughter] you very much for. having me. >> good as can be. >> Um. I guess just quick disclaimer before we. get started. Uh we're not endorsing. anything, uh any drug use, we're not. promoting it. Uh none of that stuff. Uh that being. said, we both have experience with. psychedelics so when we're talking about. it, we have been there. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, at I thought I heard you say at 7 or. 8 years old, you're into ghosts, vampires, werewolves, all the. paranormal. It looks like you have just.

upgraded your monsters to. a new level. Is that what happened? Is. you're just. you're just a monster kid? >> That's pretty accurate. I mean, I was. into Yeah. Uh werewolves, vampires, ghosts, the. occult, Ouija boards. Uh my parents were horrified. I mean, it's like the headmaster of the school. had to call in my parents, my father. specifically. >> What were you doing that the headmaster.

got involved? What was that specific? >> Um. stories. >> You were telling stories? >> I was writing So, when when the teacher. said, "Write a story." I would write. these most horrific because [laughter]. I'm going to I'm going to defend myself. a little bit. All right. >> You were that kid. >> [laughter]. >> I was that kid, but my I have. I've got quite a big family, so I've got. two older brothers. Uh two younger brothers. So, I'm right. in the middle. The two older brothers. obviously were a huge influence on me.

My oldest brother Ian, when when I was. kind of. well, six, seven, eight years old, he. was like 12. Um and so, he was more. mature and he was very interested in. horror movies and like in those days, there was like banned movies. Remember. that? >> Sure. >> This one's banned and you. >> Faces of Death. >> Faces of Death and Cannibal Corpse and. this kind of thing, right? >> So, you have to watch. >> Right. So, he he mail off for some VHS, you know, copied, pirated.

>> Yep. >> And it come back and then he watch these. movies in the living room cuz there's. only one VCR in the in in the in the. house, of course, in those days. Uh and I would sit and watch them. My my. parents were very relaxed about this. Um. um until. I started. kind of reproducing these kind of things. in my stories at school and my I think. my headmaster was slightly concerned. that I was. you know, going to be the next Michael. Myers or something like that. >> [laughter]. >> Or the next Neil Gaiman. What was that. What was that last straw story about?

>> Do you want me to say it, really? >> Yeah. >> Um so, in the story, it was a story. about a an escaped lunatic inspired by. the Halloween movies. Uh he escaped from. the the sanitarium um and he murdered. several people and then in one instance, he came across a. God, I don't Do I want to say this? He. came across a woman with her baby in a. pram. And anyway, the baby ends up being. diced. And I use that word um.

>> Diced? [laughter]. >> diced with a spade and the headmaster. was understandably in retrospect. thought, this is like a I mean, I was. like 7 years old. >> Oh god. >> As elementary school, anyway. Uh and so, yeah, they. they used to He used to like every day. at the end of school, he'd come to the. classroom and he'd check through my work. and check that I wasn't writing horrible. things. Um. yeah, so it was. >> What did your folks say.

about that story? >> Yeah, >> [laughter]. >> they had a word with me and said, maybe. you should you know, maybe write about. nice things. >> But they were you were worried about you. being. >> No, they they knew where it came from. It was just the influence of my older. brothers. But but still at that time, it. wasn't just that story. It was that I. was interested in the occult, things. that 7-year-olds aren't normally. interested in. And I was quite an. advanced reader for my age. So, I I used. to. go to these, you know, old second-hand. book stores and try to find books about. ghosts and vampires and things like that.

and I really believed in them. Uh I. wanted to be a ghost hunter when I grew. up. Um that. didn't come true, but in a way. >> In a way it did. >> it did. >> Yes. >> There we go. >> [laughter]. >> Um when I was nine, I bought a mail. order book on witchcraft and the occult. and I had quite a sit-down over that. book. >> Yeah. >> And so. so so I get it. >> Picture this. You've spent years. searching for a hidden treasure. You. followed the clues, crossed deserts, climbed mountains, and [music] finally. found the chest. You cracked it open,

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>> So take us from there to the I know. you've told the story a million times, but I have some some follow-ups. Take us. from there to 1996. Your friend shows. you. a magazine. >> Yeah. So when I. um. >> What magazine was it? >> Uh I don't remember. Um. but it was after I graduated from high. school, so in the two years we call them. A levels in in the UK. Um so I was. 16 years old, I guess. Um.

I I started to get interested in. psychedelics, um. reading about psychedelics, um. and talking a lot about psychedelics. I. started studying chemistry, uh biology, and and I wanted to be a. pharmacologist. I wanted to study drugs, basically, and you know, how they affect. um the mind. >> What drew you to psychedelics. specifically? Especially for someone who wasn't didn't. take them. >> At the time I didn't know. Um.

but. when I think back. you know, the interest in ghosts and. werewolves and vampires, it's. unusual things, I guess you could put it. in the most broad sense, I guess. >> That's what tracks for me as you've. always been into the. the alternate realities and. >> Yeah. And because I I I used to collect. a magazine called The Unexplained. It. was one of those ones that came out. every week and you got the binders. that kind of thing. Um ordered it. specially from the the news agent. Um. and within that there was a lot about.

ghosts and all that kind of stuff, but. then there was stuff about like ESP and. uh UFOs and things like that. Um so it's. it's not so strange that as as I became, you know, an adolescent and started to. mature that my interest shifted away. from just ghosts and werewolves and into. more serious things, I guess, you know, more scientific things. And psychedelics. seemed to be a way of of of altering. your mind, of altering the structure and. the dynamics of of your reality. And so.

that kind of excited me. I wanted to. know how that. uh worked. So I'd been talking about it. a lot at school. And then one day my. friend um. he's I can give his name actually now. He's Noor Abbas his name is. He's. actually, interestingly, well, he was a. few years ago the chief designer for. um. Oh, what's his name? He used to He used to be married to um. Kim Kardashian. >> Yeezy Yeezy.

Yee- these are the Yeezy shoes. Everyone's screaming at us right now, but I don't remember. Oh, from the show. >> No, no, no. He's He's like a black guy. He's. most. crazy guy that was on Rogan. He's been. on Rogan. He's been on. every He's most. Everyone's going to go crazy. After the. break, we're going to find that out. We. will. [laughter]. Kanye West. >> Kanye. Kanye. >> Yeah, Kanye. He was a chief designer. He. became a fashion designer. And he was. actually Kanye West's chief designer. Anyway. >> Wow.

>> Yeah. >> He'd be fun to talk to. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, Nura Abbas. And he brought me this. magazine when I was 16 years old and and. said, you know, look on the back page. There's something I think you'd be. interested in. And I, you know, rolled. it up and later in the day I. I I opened it and it was. picture of this bearded fellow. uh called Terence McKenna. And it This. was an interview with him. Um and there. was lots I don't remember the much of. the details, but I remember him being. asked about his quote unquote favorite. drug. This thing called DMT.

Um didn't say what it was other than. that. Um. when you take it, it takes you to this. other world. that's nothing like this world and. that's filled with these strange beings. which he called machine elves. >> Sure. >> Um and I thought this is. this is incredible. But it only lasts 15. minutes. You know, this fast-acting drug. that will instantaneously transport you. to some other reality that's just as. real or more real than this world. Uh I. thought, well, you know, that's even more interesting. than psychedelics generally is this.

particular psychedelic. So, my next task. was to find out what DMT even meant. Um. you couldn't just Google it in those. days. Um. I remember I went to the local library. in my city. Um the central library and. found one of those books of acronyms. uh initialisms uh and looked at DMT and. found dimethyl terephthalate, which is a. type of plastic, apparently. So, for for. a short period of time, DMT in my head. was dimethyl terephthalate. Um oops.

>> Yeah. Then we got the internet as you. just mentioned. And there's only one. internet in the school. Like, you had to. go collect this. big black cable from a guy in a white. coat. >> [laughter]. >> password. The password was mushroom. I remember. that. >> That's perfect. [laughter]. >> And I would spend all my my lunch break. and any free periods I had, I would. spend I I was the only one who used it. No one else knew what this It was so. new, the internet. No one really knew. its power. Uh but I kind of did. I had a.

friend also had the internet in his. house. Um, and so I spent all my time just. on AltaVista as you said, before Google. Um, just trying to find out all about. DMT. Um, and it. you know, how to. how to extract it, how to, you know, which plants you can get it from and all. that kind of stuff and. uh all these different crazy. experiences. >> Did you look into the history of it as. well. during those searches? Were you more. interested [clears throat] in what.

Terence was talking about? >> I was more interested in what it did. Um, I became more interested in the. history later on, but at that time this. was just this naturally occurring. molecule um that seemed to have almost. magical properties. Um, and and that was the beginning. really. Um, that was the beginning of. what turned out to be a 30-year. um. um. journey. trying to understand DMT, what what it. does in the brain and. how it's able to achieve these these.

remarkable effects on consciousness. >> What did your family think about this. new hobby? Cuz clearly you told your. brothers. >> Yes. Well, they didn't understand it, you. see. I mean, they. I would if I referred to it as DMT, then. that's fine. If I used the word drugs, that's a different matter. >> Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, um, your book Death by Astonishment, that's a Terence McKenna of. >> That is a Terence McKenna quote. >> So, is that a book end? Is that a a. tribute?

Is that a thank you? Why did you choose. that? >> All of those things. Well, initially it. had a completely different name that I'm. not going to tell you. >> Okay. >> Um. which was okay. Uh but I was writing I was writing the. book proposal with my editor to submit. to the publishing house. Um. and in part of the proposal I said, you. know, DMT this molecule that as Terence. McKenna said, the only risk is death by. astonishment. And then I I wrote in in. in brackets, I thought, actually that's. a pretty good title, right? Um and. I I realized in retrospect it's the.

perfect title. I mean, that's. >> [snorts]. >> I mean, it's such a kind of kind of a. showstopper title, death by. astonishment. Uh and of course it's a. beautiful tribute to the late great um. Terence McKenna. Um. and so yeah, that's that's kind of how. that name came. came about and I think it's it's a. perfect name for the book, I think. That. is, you know, it's all about it's. everything I know about DMT. Um everything I've come to learn over. the last 30 years.

studying DMT. >> So, this um sparks interesting. chemistry. Um. your PhD thesis, let me see if I can get. this right. Is it the um. the biogenesis of terrestrial and marine. polycyclic ethers? >> Wow. >> Is that what it was? >> You've done your research, dude. >> Well, that doesn't sound like. >> [snorts]. >> that that sounds like. just marine biology and. things like that. has nothing to do with psychedelics. >> nothing to do with psychedelics.

>> So, was DMT still sort of this. undercurrent while you're working. through all this? >> Yeah, it it it always has been in a way. Um you know, I've never worked in a. quote unquote psychedelic research group. um or any kind of psychedelic lab or. anything like that. It's always been, you know, I've kind of. I have many interests in in chemistry. and in pharmacology Um. you know as well as psychedelics but. that's been the kind of the foundation. that's running through all of it but but.

my PhD at Cambridge yeah that was. biological chemistry. It's basically. trying to understand how these often. exquisitely complex molecules that are. produced by plants and microorganisms. you know how are they actually stitched. together and made inside microorganism. that's something that I really fell in. love with during my first degree. Um the. kind of the. it's called biosynthesis how complex. organic molecules are constructed inside.

living beings. um and I I I thought I want to study. that for my PhD. Uh and so I went up to Cambridge and. worked in a group that specialized in. that thing. uh but all the time still I was thinking. and. writing about DMT and then um after I. finished my PhD I did a post doc again. at Cambridge and then I thought there's. something missing from my. intellectual repertoire should we put it.

like that uh in that I I I understood. the chemistry I understood the. pharmacology. um you know that kind of low level stuff. molecules interacting with living. systems that was all kind of under my. belt shall we say. Um but I still didn't. feel that I was. uh sufficiently sophisticated in the. neurosciences but I thought I need to I. need to move up to that kind of the. higher level um. of the neurosciences and so I I I did. two post docs.

um in computational neuroscience kind of. the forefront I think of neuroscience. trying to understand how the brain works. by using computational and mathematical. models so I went to the University of. York and then University of Oxford uh. and did two post docs in computational. neuroscience and then finally, my final. postdoc, which actually the longest one, lasted for 7 years, was at the Okinawa. Institute of Science and Technology in. Japan. Um so, I needed a job after my. penultimate postdoc finished, and there.

was this position in. in Okinawa. So, I thought, why not? I didn't have. ties in in England at the time, so I. thought, oh, why not move to Okinawa? >> What was the position? Was it a. mainstream type of job? >> It was a postdoctoral research. fellowship. So, basically, another. postdoc. >> Okay. >> Uh but, this was in in computational. neuroscience, as well. Um and I spent. 7 years. kind of modeling very small pieces of. the brain, basically. Sort of individual.

neurons in the brain, trying to. understand how they speak to each other, and how they um. strengthen and weaken their connections, all connected to to memory and neural. function, generally. Um. >> So, you you were building this DMT. Research Foundation the whole time. >> Yes, that's how I I see it, is that I. was You know, most people kind of. specialize at one level. You know, if. you're a chemist, you you study the. molecules. If you're a pharmacologist, you're interested in drug-receptor. interactions. And if you're a. neuroscientist, you're interested in how. kind of the the global effects on neural.

activity. Um but, I think really to. understand psychedelics, you need to. kind of span all of those. You need to. understand. >> all the way from the lowest level, the molecules, all the way up to global. neural activity. Um so, I finished my. postdoc in Okinawa after 7 years, and I. thought, right, I'm leaving the academy. Um I've sort of graduated, um and I. don't want to be. I wanted to kind of deinstitutionalize. myself, um. and just focus on writing, basically.

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or call 888-949-9172. for your 100% free info kit. >> Cambridge, Oxford, York, Okinawa, you. could have had a very successful. mainstream career. Do you has there been. a professional personal cost to making. the decision? >> Oh god, yeah. I mean, for sure. Um. I was at the stage in my career where. normally what would happen is I would. start applying for. uh what are called leaderships or. lectureships. So, when you start taking.

on graduate students of your own, you. become a part of the department wherever. you work, but the thought of being that. person horrified me. The thought that I would be, you know, like my professor, going to meetings and. managing funding and managing students, all that stuff. I mean, it never had any interest in it. When you're a post-doc, you have a lot. of freedom. You kind of do your own. thing. But, once you get to that level. where you're a lec- a lecturer, you. know, a professor, uh then you have to.

start taking on all these other. responsibilities. It takes over your. life, and I could never. invest as much time as I wanted into my. my passion, which is DMT and writing. about DMT. I always wanted to be a. writer, ultimately. There's a lot of. training required to write about these. things. >> Sure. >> So, you know, it's 20 years, I guess, before I was able to kind of make the. leap, um give up my fairly well-paid. uh position in Okinawa, uh and basically go from decent salary. to.

absolute zero salary. >> [laughter]. >> uh in in in in a single day. Um that. that's kind of scary. You know, and. there's no option to move back to my. parents if if I fuck up, uh because. they're over in the UK. So, it's like, this goes wrong, I'm I'm in deep deep. trouble in Tokyo. So, I I moved from. Okinawa to Tokyo, which is where I live. now, and that's where I've been for the. last 4 years. Fortunately, I didn't. majorly fuck up, and things are okay. >> Well, I mean, Tokyo's fascinating. because Japan has very strict drug laws.

And they're they're getting stricter if. I I mean, I think cannabis they just. banned. How is it Is it a cul- a culture. issue for you? Is it. >> Um so, people I think when people say. Japan is very anti-drugs, what they're. actually referring to is methamphetamine. Okay. And cannabis. >> Okay. >> These are the two biggies, right? Methamphetamine for very specific. historical reasons. Post-World War II, there was this huge wave of meth-. methamphetamine use throughout the.

nation. A lot of the military supplies, um. uh kind of released onto the public. market. It was perfectly legal at the. time. And then there were millions of. people in Japan using meth regularly. And then they they banned it. And then all of these little clandestine. laboratories started popping up. I think in in Osaka in 1952 in just one. year there were like 50 labs that were. raided just in one city. You know, it's. like Breaking Bad, all these little meth.

labs everywhere. >> [laughter]. >> Sure. >> Like in New Mexico or something. You. don't imagine that that that's possible. in Japan, but it really was. So, and this was a time when the. Japanese were literally a defeated. nation. And they thought. this meth could be the end of them. It's. like an existential threat to their very. civilization. And so that is a kind of I. guess. I hate that word generational. generational trauma. But it feels like that. You mention meth. and people there's still that sense.

meth. >> Yeah, cuz you have to figure the. Americans brought it there. >> What meth? >> Yeah. >> Well. >> And certainly amphetamines. >> So, methamphetamine actually was. invented by a Japanese chemist in in the. late 19th century. >> It was. >> Nagai. Yes, Nagayoshi Nagai. Yeah, everyone thinks it's either the. Americans or the Germans people I get. But it's actually. >> Well, those are two countries everybody. blames for everything. >> [laughter]. >> But it's actually a Japanese chemist. that. >> I didn't know that.

>> Japanese chemist, yes, from ephedrine. So, ephedrine. is the molecule that you can convert. pseudoephedrine they use. basically the same molecule but slightly. different geometrically. But anyway, ephedrine you can convert directly to. methamphetamine. And he was working with. ephedrine. This. the time this. Chinese herb that had various uses. And then he synthesized methamphetamine. And it was basically forgotten about for. a number of decades and wasn't seen to. be that important until people started.

reporting on its effects on. um alertness and and mood and that kind. of thing. And the Japanese were using it. during the Second World War. Specifically, they were they were they. used to create these little green. tablets. that were mixed with green tea, so. they're bright green, and they would. stamp them with the emperor's crest. Um. so it almost became like um. um. What's the word I'm looking for? Um but. but anyway, it was very much sanctioned. by the authorities. Um.

you know, the imperial imperial Japanese. authorities of the time and. Japanese soldiers were using the. kamikaze, for example, >> Sure. >> uh were using methamphetamine. It would. elevate their mood, increase their kind. of fighting fighting spirit. >> Sure. >> Uh. >> [laughter]. >> And they don't have to worry about. long-term effects. >> have to worry about long-term effects, quite literally, yeah. Um and then after the war, they had all. these stockpiles that made it into the. market. And then the the government Japanese. government actually banned powdered. forms of meth, so they started making.

liquid forms, injecting it. So they had. a huge injection problem. um. with with meth, which is probably the. most intense way to take it, but and you. know, school children were using it. Um. you know, high school students, housewives, >> Yeah. >> you know, laborers, whatever. Everyone. was using meth in in kind of the late. 1940s and early 1950s until it was. banned. And then they really cracked down on it. It's like a moral panic. in Japan. >> I mean, amphetamine salts seem to be. everywhere anyway, right?

>> Um so DMT. first synthesized in 1931, first found. to be psychoactive in 1956. And um. That was Stephen Szara, right? >> Stephen Szara was the first to inject. pure DMT. >> Now, this is at the same time where LSD. is a popular psychedelic in psychiatric. research. Why Why did LSD catch on and. DMT did. basically went away, disappeared until.

McKenna. >> Right. Yeah, I mean that was. So, Yeah, yeah, you're right. So, during. that period there was a flurry of these. molecules that were either discovered um. or invented and LSD was was the main one. at the time. And Zarah actually, Stephen. Zarah was this Hungarian physician. working behind the Iron Curtain in. Communist Hungary. Um and he wanted to. work with LSD. And he wrote to Sandoz. um the the the only company that was. producing LSD at the time and said, "Can.

I Can I have some LSD, please? I want to. start working on it." And they said, "No, no, no, no, no." "We're not sending. LSD into bloody com- communists.". >> No. No. [laughter]. No. Uh and so he said, "I need something. else." Um. and. he thought about mescaline. He ordered. some mescaline from from the UK and that. arrived safely and he he took. his first dose of mescaline on Christmas. Day. um and had this wonderful experience. >> What was he trying to achieve? What was. he trying to achieve? What was the.

purpose of his experiments? >> Well, he was interested in. um he was a psychiatrist. >> Ah. >> Right? So, he's interested in, you know, at the most fundamental level. He was he. he was interested in the human mind, how. we might study the human mind. But he's. also interested in, you know, could. these molecules find uses in psychiatry. as treatment for various sort of. neuropsychological. disorders. Um so, he tried mescaline and then he. found this paper. There was. a paper that was.

So, there was this um. plant called um Anadenanthera peregrina. uh which is this um yopo, this snuff. that. that. scientists had just come to understand, uh you know, had been used um by. various tribal peoples, indigenous. peoples in South America for. perhaps thousands of years and was said. to induce. um what seemed to be like psychedelic.

effects. You know, they would go to. other worlds and they would. speak with these strange disembodied. beings which they. thought were like demons or something. Uh but no one knew how it worked uh and. so they they started to analyze it. This. this kind of the first study analyzing. um these seeds from this peregrina uh. plant. Uh and they found two molecules in. there. One was bufotenine, which is. um five-hydroxy-dimethyltryptamine.

It was. >> 5-MeO-DMT. >> No, that's 5-methoxy. Okay. Yeah, so 5-MeO-DMT is. 5-methoxy-DMT. If you take that. methyl group off, that carbon, you get. 5-hydroxy, just hydroxyl group. That's. bufotenine. That was a known molecule. um and it was known that when you. injected it into prisoners, cuz that's. the way you did it in those days. You. found a group of. um prisoners who were normally. imprisoned for using drugs, normally. young black men, basically. Um and you would inject them with drugs.

and see what happened. Um and. uh bufotenine was one that had already. been tested um and was found to have s-. mildly mind-altering effects. Generally, it made people very nauseous and their. face went purple and they started. vomiting and it's very unpleasant. Uh. but they found that molecule in this. um this uh yopo seed. Um and they thought, well, that must be. the the kind of the. the central psychoactive molecule in.

this. They also found another molecule. called DMT, dimethyltryptamine, and they. just ignored it. Um. which is a huge mistake um. until Stephen Zara read this paper. um he thought bufotenine, no, that. doesn't make any sense. It's not. particularly psychoactive. So why would. that be. this why would that be regarded as this. molecule that would transport you to. other worlds and allow you to. communicate with disincarnate. intelligences? That didn't make any.

sense. So the only other option was DMT. That. was also in the seed and it had been. ignored. So he thought, "Okay, I'll just. I'll give it a go. You know, no one has. tried this." So he synthesized it. He made 10 g in his laboratory in 1956. and he started swallowing it first of. all, you know, increasing the dosage. He. went up to like a gram of of DMT. Nothing. >> Nothing happened. We know why now, but. that time we didn't know. So he was. ready to give up basically. >> He didn't try insufflating it. He didn't.

try He didn't snort it. He didn't snort. it. >> snort it, no. >> That might have worked though, no? >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Might have worked. It would have been painful, >> Yeah. >> but it might have worked. So he. basically he was like. ready to give up. Maybe his hunch was. wrong. And then a friend, a colleague. says, "Have you. tried injecting it?" So he injected it. into. um. um. I think it was a cat or a rabbit. I. think it was a cat for some reason. And the cat kind of.

started behaving strangely. You know, it. was it [laughter] was having some kind. of effect. >> don't mean to laugh. I'm a cat guy, but. >> a cat man as well. So. you know, satisfied that it wasn't. lethal, at least in. cats. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, yeah, we shouldn't laugh. People. People complain whenever I tell this. story because. poor cat. And it's true, but different. different times, different times.

Yeah, so then he injected it into. himself. So sometime in April in 1956 he. injected it into his. intramuscularly and. yeah, the rest as they say is history. Had this he started seeing these. fantastical patterns and rapidly. procession of rapidly changing geometric. imagery all moving very quickly. He No, he was having a DMT trip. Um and so then he. he started recruiting. um. colleagues. So, doctors, nurses from. where he worked. Things were much.

simpler in those days. You didn't need. to fill out forms and get any ethic. right approval. >> DEA wasn't even around then. >> Um injected it into various people, um healthy volunteers. Uh and they. started describing what we now recognize. as the classic um effects of DMT. They. would start going to describe going. losing awareness of the normal waking. world and going to these strange world. filled with gods and spirits and.

>> Well, let me back you up just a second. So, why why DMT didn't catch on still? So, he's synthesized it, it works, but. LSD still is the one that MK that MK. Ultra and everybody Sidney Gottlieb goes. there. >> Yep. Yep. So, so after. so. Szara started publishing these papers. So, the the very first. uh awareness anyone would have had that. DMT was even psychoactive as a. psychedelic would have been Stephen.

Szara's papers. Um so, that was in the. late 1950s. From 1956 up to kind of. 1960, he published several papers in. healthy people and schizophrenics and. that kind of thing. So, the data was all. there. Um the problem was is that. well, LSD had its foothold by then. Um. it was extremely potent. Potent meaning. you need a very small amount of the. molecule to achieve the desired effect. So, you could, you know, in 1 g you've. got, you know, like 100,000 doses or. something like that.

Um and whereas with DMT, and you can. swallow LSD, you know, drop it on your. tongue, dissolve it in blotter paper, very, very simple to. to distribute. Whereas with DMT, one, um, it was much less potent in terms of. the amount you need. Instead of 50. micrograms, you needed, you know, 30 to. 50 milligrams. Uh, and you needed to. inject it. >> Mhm. >> That was a big issue. People didn't like. to mess with needles, certainly in the. West. Um, and.

and so it was it was. kind of a an exotic psychedelic. You. know, if you were in the know, um, and. you had access to a well-stocked dealer. in the 1960s, you could find. uh, DMT. You know, William Burroughs, for example, he was probably the first. person to take DMT outside of a clinical. setting. He injected it. Um, um, and. >> I forgot about that. >> Yeah, Leary as well. You know, >> And he's the Burroughs, one of the great. thinkers of his time.

>> He was, and he had him really important. role actually in in in working out how. ayahuasca worked. >> Did he? >> Yeah, we can get to that. >> Okay. >> Yeah, but um, so yeah, William Burroughs took it, William Burroughs was horrified. Um, he he he took too much one day and. he found himself in this what he called. the white white hot latticed ovens that. that the soulless insect people uh, were. kind of menacing him uh, and he was he. was appalled and he thought this is the.

the absolute horror show of all drugs. Nobody should be taking this. And so he. wrote this kind of breathless letter of. warning to Timothy Leary. And Timothy Leary at the time wasn't. particularly well known. He was kind of. a neophyte, uh, you know, this kind of. tweed-jacketed Harvard psychologist who. had just that year, um, had been to. Mexico and had his first experience with. psilocybin mushrooms. Um, so he He well primed for DMT. But Burroughs wrote this letter saying.

stay away from DMT. It's the It's a. nightmare the nightmare the nightmare. drug the nightmare hallucinogen he. called it. But of course Timothy Leary. said challenge accepted. and so Leary spoke to. a psychiatrist friend who said that you. know he he'd injected people with DMT. 90% had had a terrible experience. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. We don't exactly know who who this was. but he said.

a psychiatrist working in LA. who was. injecting people with with DMT in his in. his office and he said that 90% had a. had a bad experience. We don't know why. that is but Leary said. Leary was just kind of formulating his. set and setting hypothesis. That really. came from Leary the idea that. the nature of your psychedelic. experience comes down to the setting. Where are you? Who is with you? And also. your mind set. And so he thought okay. maybe if the set and setting is right so.

you're not in a clinician's. psychiatrist's office. which is where sick people go right. where crazy people go. but in fact in a beautiful environment. can you. actually induce a more pleasant. experience. And so Timothy Leary. and Richard Alpert. who's one of his kind of. partners in crime shall we say during. during that era. they were both injected with DMT and. both had incredible beautiful. experiences.

Timothy Leary described these angelic. beings like. elf-like insects. He was the first. person to really use that term elf. in. in describing the DMT state and now. elves are. the most famous. beings within the DMT space. Most. just about everybody listening. have they've never taken DMT and. probably never will. >> Mhm. >> So, we don't have to talk about our personal.

experiences if you don't want to. I. don't mind. But, can you describe. from that first inhale, >> Mhm. >> what what do you see? How does it feel? >> So, >> and this is not a recreational drug, folks. >> This is not a recreational drug. It's. not a party drug. >> No, it is not. >> No, it is not. Um it's a. it's a dark, quiet room lying on your. bed kind of drug. Um so, my first. experience of DMT way, way back um.

in a place where it was completely. legal. Um. >> [laughter]. >> Well, if we're going to talk about. yours, then you have to tell me what led. up to it. Why how did you get the. courage? Were just like, well, I. I have to do it now. >> Yeah. I mean, I'd reached the stage. where. I'd I'd been studying DMT I've been. fascinated by DMT for the best part of a. decade. Um and I'd read all. the by that point all the Terence. McKenna books, listened to his lectures, and it was like, Okay, I need to find this this molecule.

and actually try it. Otherwise, I'm just. talking blindly. Um and and so, I. managed. through unspecified means to acquire. some DMT in an unspecified location at. an unspecified time. Um. and. I So, I'll I'll kind of talk you through. what happened to me. Um. So, I had a glass pipe, and I loaded it with. what I thought was around sort of 50 mg.

of DMT. And I I First of all, I I I tried to. Now, we have these great vaporizing. ation systems, but in those days, I just. had a a lighter. >> No volcano bag or anything. >> No, nothing like that. It was all very, very basic, you know, like a crack pipe. basic. >> Yeah. >> Um and I didn't really know what I was. doing, and so I was heating it, and it. was tasted awful, and I was coughing. >> is terrible. >> A lot of it was burning, probably, so it. was smoke, you know, horrible, acrid. smoke, as well. I couldn't get enough in my lungs, and I.

was I basically gave up for the evening. And then at just as I was about to go to. bed, like 2:00 in the morning, I think. it was, I saw the pipe on. on the desk beside me, and I thought, "Okay, so one more. quick attempt.". I was a bit more relaxed this time, for. some reason, and. I started inhaling the vapor, and then. something happened. I just remember this. like this ping this very distinct sound, uh, like a very high-pitched pinging.

sound, that was completely different to. earlier in the evening, and I somehow I. knew that something was happening. Uh, so I continued inhaling. Then. I had to put the pipe down. I laid down, and I was I was just hurtled great speed. through this. indescribably complex geometric imagery. People like. It's. I can't English it. It's un-Englishable. Uh, but straight away, and I don't know.

how I knew this, but I knew this, uh, with every fiber of my being, that I was. I was. I wasn't just in a place, but I was in a. place that was constructed by the hand. of an immense and timeless. intelligence that was. vast, much older, far, far billions, trillions. of years older than our universe, than. our reality, um, more advanced, just indescribably.

strange. >> And when you're there, you know it to be. true. >> You know it to be true. I had no. shadow of a doubt. And that's what was. so. horrifying for me at the time. It was. shocking because I was expecting just a. kind of going to a dream world and see. elves dancing around. You know, I'd I'd. got all this stuff from McKenna. >> Had you done other like magic mushrooms. or things before? >> Mushrooms, MDMA, um. not really a psychedelic, but yeah, I.

was familiar familiar with the effects. of drugs when they come on. >> Right. >> So, when you start to things start to. change, you're like, "Okay, I've been. here before." It's It's that. breakthrough that's like, "What is. this?". >> It's so fast. With mushrooms, it builds. and you feel the energy and you can you. can just kind of. settle into it. Uh but with this, it's. like rocket ship, you know, like a. roller coaster. Uh one moment you. everything's normal and then literally. 20 30 seconds later, you're just being.

fired into this place that's that's. completely un you couldn't There's no. way I could have predicted it or. anticipated what this was going to be. like. I could have read all all the. books about DMT and listened to every. single Terence McKenna lecture in. existence and I still wouldn't wouldn't. even be close to what this was. It was. truly ontologically shocking. >> Yes. >> Um that this place existed and it was. right there and it was far more advanced. and it was it was this. hyper-technological. space that was built by the hand of an. alien intelligence. I didn't see.

entities dancing around, but I felt the. immensity of and the undeniable-ity of. this presence. And um. I I. it lasted two or three minutes. I don't. remember all the details. I remember. start I lost any awareness of. not just myself, but of. even the concept of humanity. Um. and that lasted not long, two three. minutes. Then.

gradually I started to get these little. fragments of memories of of having been. a human. And as as if my brain was kind. of piecing back together my humanity. >> It's very strange that that [laughter]. that come down is is like that. You. start to become human again. >> You become human again. >> that only couple of minutes so. it's because of that janky method. where. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I don't want to give people too much. information but even the.

vaporized properly we're talking what 15. 20 minutes most. >> Yeah, I mean the peak itself I mean. you get into the peak within a minute. inside a minute. Then you're there in the breakthrough. state. probably between. 3 4 5 6 7 minutes and then you then you. start to come down and then the after. effects will last yeah 15 20 minutes. You know when I when I came back I I. just laid on my bed on my back. All I. could say was I was shaking and I said. oh my fucking god. That's all I could.

say. I couldn't believe what had just. happened to me. I could not believe it. I remember writing a message to my. friend you know. Facebook messenger or something. This is. the most. I was just I was I was euphoric but. shocked at the same time. It's like my. god this really is it you know Terence. McKenna wasn't. joking here. This is this is something. I wow I need to. >> Yeah, this is not melting walls or.

seeing colors. It is not. [laughter]. >> No. I mean the one of the first I read a. book. had a little section on psychedelics and. described DMT as like a bit like LSD but. but much shorter acting like 15 minutes. and people. some people will go into it thinking. that's what it is just like taking LSD. but very short duration but it's not. >> Nope. >> You are you. you cannot be prepared for it in a way I. don't think. You can't anticipate or predict what. it's going going to be like and it will.

shock you. You know death by. astonishment, you know, going back to. that. he was only half joking when he said. that. Um because true astonishment I. think is a very rare emotion. Now we. kind of use it to mean mildly surprised. But that true astonishment. where your mind is. cannot. even begin to comprehend the immensity. of something. That's what DMT delivers. >> And you can't really explain it. You. can't explain that, you know, your ego.

kind of dissolves into this oneness with. everything and it and everything makes. total sense. >> Yeah. At the time it does. >> It does. >> Yeah. >> Um. in psychedelic therapy there's a. there's something called integration. Did you do any type of integration work. post trip? >> No. I mean this was. um integration's a big thing now, but at. the time. maybe it was in certain specialist. circles, but at the time it wasn't. didn't really know what integration was.

Uh but in a way it's like. it's so fast and and although yeah, for. 15 20 minutes I was shaking and I was. shocked, by the next morning. um it's like my my brain had kind of. thought, "Okay, we'll get we'll. compartmentalize that somewhere.". >> Mhm. >> Um and. >> Let's put that away. >> We'll put that away. >> Yeah. >> Um so there wasn't any lingering after. effects or anything like that. You know, it's it's neurologically it's a very. benign molecule. It's not going to hurt. you. physiologically. But but.

your world your entire. ontological foundation of your reality. is going to be obliterated. Uh that's. the problem. I think. >> Yes. And I don't recommend doing it alone. Um. definitely not with open flame. >> No, no, no, no. >> Cuz you're going to be care just be. careful, guys. Be so careful with it. Um. best way to try it it would be I think. using DMT X so that you and Strassman. created. It's probably a good way to explore it.

Um coming up on a break. When we come. back, I want to talk a little bit of. chemistry and then. >> Sure. >> and maybe you can convince us that. those entities are not hallucinations. >> I'll do my best. All right, be right. back. >> So, let me see if I can get this right. We've got. tryptophan gets decarboxylated into. tryptamine. INMT gets involved. Then we've got two. stages of methylating. to get to DMT. Is that about right?

>> Yeah. >> That sounds pretty. >> That sounds like a pretty expensive. process to keep in. human biology or all biology. So, what is the evolutionary purpose of. DMT in all these living things? >> Okay, yeah. So, it's actually. you know, compared to most molecules, I. mean, let's say. LSD, right? LSD is not natural. It's. semi-synthetic, but it's derived from. um lysergic acid amide. Um.

which is natural and is far more complex. than DMT. DMT is actually. not only the most common naturally. occurring psychedelic, it's found in countless plant species, you know, hundreds. Um. but it's also the simplest. You go as. you said, you go from tryptophan, you go. to tryptamine and then. it's one step. Then you got another step. which is this dimethylation. >> Mhm. >> by indole-N-methyltransferase, INMT. >> Right. [snorts]. >> Um and so it's just two simple steps. from tryptophan, this amino acid. Um so.

so that's really. to me, that's there's something uncanny. about that. You would have this simple. molecule that's everywhere. Um you know, you walk through your local. park and there's probably half a dozen. different plant species all busily, silently constructing the world's. strangest psychedelic drug. and you'd no idea. And it's also found in in humans. We've. known that since the 1950s when people.

started getting. schizophrenics to line up and. pee in a bottle basically. >> Sure. >> Yeah, that's the urine tests. >> Right, exactly. So. why is it there? I don't think anyone's got. a definitive answer. So I can't give you. a definitive answer. Usual answers are. well, it's an insect repellent or it's. you know, it's some kind of it's used to. it's kind of an anti-feeding and.

anti-predation kind of molecule. It affects the neurochemistry of. insects, let's say. We know that. psilocybin does that for example. >> Sure. >> That it it would dissuade organisms, you. know, predators from feeding on on a plant by. producing DMT. >> I don't like I don't like that one. >> like that either. It doesn't explain why. >> Cuz. even cuz any mammal's stomach would. break it down. >> That's what you'd think you see as well. Yeah. So. the short answer, the not very exciting.

answer is we don't really know why it's. there. We don't know why it's in humans. We don't know why it's in plants, but it. is and it's very easy to make and it's. just two steps from tryptophan. So it's. not like. they. you know, many molecules you have to go. through many many steps. Something like morphine for example, there's many steps to get to morphine. But to get to DMT, it's very simple. So. basically all living organisms. probably have the enzymatic machinery to. make DMT including humans. So it feels.

almost like. you have this. message in some way about this other. place that's kind of embedded within our. reality. But it takes a certain amount. of intelligence in order to decode that. message. You know, you can't just munch. on plants and have a psychedelic trip. like you could with mushrooms. Um you. you can eat as many plants as you like. and that's never going to have any. effect. Um you need to isolate the.

molecule and actually like Steven did. and that took humans all the way up. until. the 1950s to actually work out what this. molecule was and how to use it, the. techniques that it. to administer it. >> From a. a chemistry perspective, what it Why are. those methyl. those bolt-on methyl groups so powerful? It's cuz it's basically a serotonin. molecule, yes? >> Yeah, so serotonin is five. hydroxy-tryptamine. >> Mhm. >> So if you remove that hydroxy group, you. get tryptamine, which is has no effect.

It doesn't get. across the blood-brain barrier very. efficiently at all. So if you inject. someone with serotonin, they won't uh. sorry, with tryptamine, there are no psychoactive effects. Um. So that that that. methylation. makes the molecule slightly more fatty, shall we say? It's more lipid oil. soluble. >> Ah. >> Allows it to get very very rapidly into. the brain. Um and then it binds to this. um specific set of receptors, the most.

famous one being the serotonin 5-HT2A. receptor. And this is responsible for. its effects and. we want to get into the neuroscience, we. can talk through exactly how that. that process works. >> I'd love to, if you don't mind. >> I don't mind. >> Please. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, so. so psychedelic, so what what are known. as the classic psychedelics, so DMT, LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, those are. the most famous ones. Uh they all work.

mainly through the serotonin receptor um. called the 5-HT2A receptor. Uh so there there are many serotonin. receptors. and they all have different functions. Uh what a. receptor does, broadly, um, receptors. are embedded in the membrane of neurons. So, the neurons are these. information-generating cells of your. brain. They they generate little. electrochemical spikes, um, which you can think of as like, uh,

binary digits, almost, you know, on and. off. That's all a neuron really can do. Uh, it can fire what's called an action. potential, a spike, or it can be quiet. It's like a one and a zero. Uh, and and. and neurons are generating these action. potentials all the time, or or not. Uh, and then they have these chemical. connections called synapses that allows. them to share information. So, you have. all of these. millions of neurons that are that are. connected in your. um, that form your cortex, cerebral. cortex, in your brain.

Um, and the receptors of all different. types of receptors for all different. types of neurotransmitters and. neuromodulators and other. neurochemicals, um, these chemicals bind to these. receptors, and they affect the way the. neuron behaves. They're like tuning. dials, if you like, for the the neurons. And the 5-HT2A receptor, specifically, uh, is what's called an excitatory. receptor. It excites the neuron. It. makes it more likely to fire. uh, these electrochemical spikes, um,

and it makes it more likely to, uh, to. fire in when when it receives. stimulation from another neuron. So, it. excites the cortex, broadly. >> Are we finding that psychedelics, uh, those neurotransmitters are concentrated. in the specific parts of the brain? >> So, so, the cortex. So, let's talk a little. bit about the cortex. So, you have this. outer layer of your brain, this folded. outer layer, uh, which is called the. cerebral cortex. And the newest part of. the brain, evolutionary. Uh, and it has several layers.

Um, kind of six layers, uh, broadly. Um, and each layer of the. cortex has different function in terms. of its connectivity, whether it's. receiving input or is more like an. output layer or it's more of an. interconnection layer, that kind of. thing. Uh, and the cortex. is is responsible for constructing your. world model. This is the This is absolutely. fundamental. Um, the world you experience now,

the subjective world you experience, the. structure, the content, the dynamics, everything you're experiencing, let's. say in your visual world, is being. constructed by your brain. Um, um, you're not. Your brain isn't like a video camera. that's kind of taking pictures of of the. outside world. It has to construct a. model of the environment um, that may or. may not resemble what the true structure. of the environment, which we never have. direct access to. So, you So, you're.

always living in kind of a like a waking. dream in a sense, you know. Uh, and Neil. Seth calls it a. waking hallucination. I don't really. like that term, but anyway, uh, >> But later I think we we'll get into uh, your work with Donald Hoffman and and. his theories, which are really. interesting. >> Yeah, absolutely, yeah. That's a. completely different take on the whole. thing. Yeah, much more fundamental. But, if we stick to the kind of the brain. level, you have this world model that's. being always being constructed by your. brain. Uh, and we know this because you. can manipulate your brain. If I.

remove the top of your skull and start. um, playing around with an electrode in. there, I can change your world. >> Sure. >> Right? Nothing in the outs- the. environment changes, but your world. changes. I can make you see um, colorful. patterns. I can make you hear voices and. just by stimulating different parts of. the brain that are responsible for. generating different aspects, if you. like, of your uh, of your world. So, we. know that that's that's the case. Uh, and if you take a psychedelic, what does. that do? It changes your world. Uh, it.

binds to these 5-HT2A receptors that are. concentrated in layer five of the. cortex, one of the deeper layers of the. cortex. Um and what that does um is it. it kind of. shakes up your world model. Uh it the world model stops being kind. of very rigid and well-defined um and. becomes much more fluid and dynamic. because these neurons are being. stimulated by this 5-HT2A receptor. Um.

the the neurons start firing more often, they start sharing information between. each other. And so, this very very rigid. uh and. uh uh precisely constructed world model, which is the one you're using to kind of. make sense of the environment, starts to. change. Things start to loosen up. Objects might start to morph or change. their identity. Um. this is happening. uh because of this this stimulation uh. by by the psychedelic. Um but with DMT,

something. DMT seems to kind of transcend all of. that, goes beyond that. >> Mhm. >> So, you can actually measure if you put. someone in an MRI machine. This work was. initially done by Robin Carhartt-Harris, who's now at University of California, San Diego. I might have got that wrong, but anyway, a university in California. Uh maybe San Francisco. Um but anyway, uh if you put someone in an MRI machine, and give them inject them with. psilocybin, for example, you can. actually see how their brain activity.

changes. So, normally, you can see the. brain kind of moving between states in a. very. controlled manner uh as your brain is. kind of constructing your world. Um but. then you when you give. psilocybin, that activity starts to look. more random. It's as if the brain is. moving more freely from state to state. Um. and so, that kind of. >> You mean DMT is more freely. >> Uh with psilocybin? >> Okay. >> Right, or LSD.

>> Okay. >> Um. but. and so you you can kind of measure the. the entropy, so the randomness in in. neural activity. >> Right. >> Uh what you see is you go from this. baseline level where the brain is kind. of. ordered. Uh and then you start to see this. increase in randomness. So, it goes up. like this. Um. uh and this kind of maps quite well with. the subjective experience. Your. the world becomes more fluid. Your. thinking becomes much more fluid and. dynamic. It's like you're kind of your.

it's like heating up a piece of glass. Right, the glass is very rigid and you. heat it up and it starts to melt and but. you can kind of. mold it to any kind of shape. Psychedelics are kind of doing that to. the brain, doing that to your world. model and that's why you have this the. effects of psychedelics. But with DMT, something. different seems to happen. You get this. initial. um. uh increase in randomness, but it's as. if. um the brain suddenly collapses into. this new order. So, you go from the old. order, the original order, which is the.

normal waking world model, into this. more uh fluid and dynamic state and then. at the breakthrough, uh it's like the. brain has has collapsed into this. entirely new order, which is this. entirely new, novel, entirely alien um. world. >> Is that when we start to lose the our. ego? >> That's. part of what's going on, yeah. Uh the. ego is an interesting concept um in the. it's it's not that well defined, but. there are certain networks in the brain. that we think are responsible. You know,

the the default mode network is the one. that's spoken about a lot. >> Sure. >> Responsible for um. um the sense of self as this as distinct. from the other, from the environment. Um. and what psychedelics do is because of. this stimulation of these 5-HT2A. receptors, those networks start to break. down and that order starts to break. down. And so, you have all of these. effects, psychological, subjective. effects, effects on the world, effects. on your sense of self. Uh they all start. to break down. And the the higher the. dose.

becomes, the the more pronounced those. effects appear to be. But with DMT, it's. not like there's just an increase in. randomness, because the DMT is not DMT. world is not random. Uh it is very coherent, uh it is. exquisitely. uh. a complex, uh you know, staggeringly. coherent narrative complexity. Um it's. like literally as if the normal waking. world has been switched off. >> Yep. >> Uh and a new world. It's like those old. radio sets where you go from dial, and.

you have one channel, and then you twist. it, and it's kind of noisy. Yeah, that's. kind of psychedelics. And then finally, if you twist it enough, this entirely. new, crisp, clear channel crackles. through the speakers. And that's kind of. what DMT is doing. Um. >> And you've called that world navigable. >> It is navigable, yeah. >> [cough]. >> Excuse me. Um for most people, it's not navigable. For most people, it's just like hold on. Um.

but with. with experience, yes, you can you can. navigate this world. >> Yes. >> But the problem is. um. the problem I have. um with the kind of the the standard. explanation of this DMT state um is that. that this normal waking world is is a. world that your brain kind of evolved to. construct. You know, the moment that you. emerge from the womb, your brain is. constantly sampling sensory information. from the environment through the eyes, etc., and and using it to kind of.

construct. this world model. Uh that's the only. world model your brain knows how to. build, or should know how to build. It's. like uh you know, if you if you grow up. speaking English, you can't speak any. other languages unless you learn them. >> Mhm. >> Um and in the same way, this normal waking world the should be. the only world your brain knows how to. construct. But when you take DMT, your brain starts. constructing these. entirely alien worlds that are that are. far more complex, far more intricate,

far more coherent, and far more real. feeling than the normal waking world. It's not like dream. You know, when. people dream, they tend to dream of. people. They tend to dream of animals. You know, people in. uh the Midwest will dream of. people. They will dream of dogs and. cats, right? If you ask someone who. lives in the Amazon rainforest what they. dream of, they'll dream of catching. stingrays. They'll dream of the animals. that they will find in their. environment. This is. obvious in a way. Yeah. When you dream, your brain is simply constructing the.

normal waking world. Dream is like. continuous really with the normal waking. world. Brain is using those models that. it knows to construct a world in the. absence of sensory inputs, which is what. dreaming is. Um so, that's kind of make sense. So, why then when. not DMT, your brain starts constructing. these worlds that it shouldn't know how. to build? >> Well, take us through the Take us. through the world. So, I mean maybe we can talk about um. DMTX because that's.

that's the protocol you developed with. Rick Strassman. And so, this is. intravenous DMT. >> Yeah. >> keeping you in that state for. a lot how long? >> How long? Uh how long is a piece of. string? >> That's the answer to that question. >> Okay. So, >> Yeah, so. So, Rick Strassman, as many people will. know, he did the world's largest DMT. study in the 1990s. Injected them with. DMT, what's called a bolus injection. So, all the DMT at once or within like. 30 seconds.

Um you get a very. rises in the brain. Um. They are have this breakthrough. experience, and then almost. As as it reaches the peak in the brain, it starts to be metabolized and. excreted. And so there's this. exponential drop off. And then when you reach a certain level. in the brain, you come out of the DMT. state. And so it's if you really want to. study the DMT state, you know, it's it's geometry, it's. topology, the the entities, the. language, all that kind of stuff, you.

need to be in there for a lot longer. >> Mhm. >> Uh and so it occurred to me back in sort. of 2015. that DMT So I was aware of this. technique from anesthesiology called. target controlled intravenous infusion, which is a technique they use in. anesthesiology during surgery. So what. they don't do when someone puts you to. sleep, they don't just inject you with a. drug. They inject you with a very fast-acting. uh anesthetic that if they just injected. it, you'd be asleep for a few minutes. Um but they use uh what's called an.

infusion device, an infusion machine. So. they deliver using a programmed infusion. protocol, they deliver. um the anesthetic into your bloodstream, the aim being to keep your brain. anesthetic concentration fairly fairly. constant so they can keep you. anesthetized for as long as they want. As soon as they stop the machine, a few. minutes later you'll wake up. Beautiful. thing, and they can manipulate the the. depth of your anesthesia as well. So. this is has been the mainstay of. anesthesiology for decades.

Um and it occurred to me that the the. kind of the requisite properties of of. the anesthetic drug uh are the same as. DMT. Needs to be short-acting, it needs. it can't build up uh in the bloodstream, it can't have subjective tolerance, right? >> Right. >> So the effect of the drug must remain. constant throughout the. whilst you're anesthetized, otherwise. you'd start to wake up even though the. drug was still pumping into your brain. Um DMT has that as well. Rick Strassman. showed that you can inject someone with.

DMT um and you can measure the intensity. of the experience using his rating. scale, then you can inject them again 30. minutes later, they will have the same. intensity of experience. You can do. repeat that over and over again. So, it. occurred to me, I thought, wait, you. know, DMT has all of these properties. that we need for target controlled. intravenous infusion. So, why don't. we work together, me and Rick, and. actually. uh develop a model for this, a. mathematical model of the of DMT's. distribution, metabolism, excretion that.

you need to build this kind of target. controlled intravenous infusion model, uh but just replace the anesthetic drug. with DMT. Uh so, I wrote to Rick and. I said, I have this idea, uh and I need. your data, his blood data, cuz you need. blood sampling data uh to to build this. model, and he he had it on some old hard. drive, this old Excel file, which he. kindly sent to me. And we set to work. We built this model. We published it. >> convince him, or talk him into it, or. explain the protocol? >> Or no. Um I think he.

when he wrote DMT: The Spirit Molecule. in 2000, um he. he mentioned towards the end of the book. that maybe an infusion would be better. So, it wasn't entirely alien idea to. him. Um. um. and said, you know, when I came along. with this very concrete proposal to. write this paper, um we we'd call it extended state DMT. Um later it became known as DMTX. >> Mhm. >> Um and we published this model, kind of. a proof of principle, basically to say. this should work.

We didn't know if it would work, but it. should work. We should be able to. stabilize the DMT state, and hold. someone there for 30 minutes, an hour, 2. hours, 3 hours, however long. Um and then. that got a lot of attention, um and the Imperial College team in. London. picked it up, and said, okay, let's do. this in humans. Let's see if it actually. works. And they in in I think 2020, around that time, they recruited a dozen. people for a a pilot study,

um and were able to indeed show for just. 30 minutes, uh, but. 30 minutes is a lot longer than normal. DMT trip. They were able to stabilize. the DMT state and maintain fairly stable. intensity, uh, of experience. Um, and since then, uh, you know, a number. of um, groups have kind of. extended this to 2 3 hours. I now work. with a. a company called Eleusis, E L E U S I S, in the Caribbean and we've got a special. license to actually um, bring anyone.

onto the island and to undergo several. DMTX. sessions with qualified medical. practitioners, psychiatrists, anesthesiologist, um, and and anyone now can basically. spend as much time as they like, really, within the DMT space exploring. And so, you know, go to eleusismind.com and uh, you can also, you know, kind of sign up. and spend a few days on the island. >> Eleusis went live, um, in March, right? >> Yes. So, the first cohort was in March.

>> The first cohort. So, what are people. seeing? >> Um, well, we we. it's very early days, um, so. we don't have kind of have. a kind of published reports or anything, but the. >> What are we all seeing? The waiting. room, navigating the space, the entities. >> So, what when the Imperial College team. published their. um, DMTX study, they, um, we actually I actually did a I did an.

online. webinar with all of the or several of. the participants. Me and Graham Hancock. actually chaired it. Um, that's still. online. You can people can find that. Basically search for Andrew Gallimore. Graham Hancock. Should be able to find. that. Um, and we spoke to several of. them, including the the. the first. the subject zero as I call him, Carl. Smith. Um, he was the first person to to. undergo DMTX in a controlled kind of. research setting. Uh, Um it was five.

doses, increasing doses. Um and you. know, I think every couple of weeks they go in. and they'd be injected, infused with. with DMT for 30 minutes. Um and and then. we got to speak to them about their. experiences. And. thing about DMT is that it's. it's a very varied experience and no no. no two experiences are always the same. Uh however, uh Carl Smith, particularly, uh he's one.

of my colleagues at New Nauticals. Um we're both directors. Um he. um. he found that the entities. over the sessions, through the several, you know, five sessions of DMTX, the. entities started to. notice that he was coming back rather. too often and spending a little bit too. much time in there. Uh and he he. describes. the sense that the entities were saying, "Not you again." You know, you're you're. back again. You know, as if there was. this kind of continuity between the.

experience. They weren't totally. isolated experiences, but there was this. this continuity between the experiences. And during one experience, one DMTX. session, he was being scanned by some. machine. This is in the. normal waking world, right? Like an MRI. machine or something. And he was being scanned, his brain was. being scanned, and the entities were. aware of this. The entities kind of. rushed in. Uh and they He said seemed. a little bit confused. Like they're the. ones normally doing the scanning, um.

and not whatever this was. They didn't. seem to understand what was going on. Cuz most people when they take DMT, they. aren't being. scanned. Uh they're doing it, you know, in her. the back room or basement or something. >> Did he describe what they look like? >> Um he didn't. No, he didn't describe. what they looked like, but he said there. were. very, very large numbers of They were. crowding in as if they'd seen something. going on and they come came crowded in. um. and there was another guy called Anton.

Bilton. He actually funded the study. Uh. he has this great institute called the. Tiringham Institute and has these. wonderful private symposia every few. years. Um and he funded it and he said I want. to be you know, a subject since I'm. paying for this bloody thing. and it's not not a cheap study by any. stretch of the imagination. Um and he. describes an experience where he found. himself in like the waiting room kind of. place with these morphing geometric.

walls and these beings who were looking. down upon him. He called them the. gingerbread men. Um these elfish like. beings, small beings uh and they seemed. to be he said they they always check the. back of my neck. Uh. always do this. I don't know why. They. said the only thing I can think is they. were checking to see if there was a cord. attached, whether I'd kind of passed. permanently to their side. >> Uh. wow. >> Yeah. And then um when they were. satisfied that he hadn't that you know,

he was kind of there temporarily, they. started showing him things um and one. thing that happens quite regularly is. they they show you devices. um. that are. kind of. like like a electronic. some kind of mechanical device or. electronic device like a jewel-encrusted. pad he described it. Um which is. interesting, right? It's like imagine an.

iPad I guess with with knobs and wheels. and dials and numbers and all this kind. of stuff and kind of showing it to him. as if as if. he was supposed to do something with it. or make sense of it. But of course he. couldn't. But this term jewel-encrusted. pad is very interesting because Timothy. Leary back in the 1960s, he wasn't aware. of this, Anton. But I said to him, "Jewel-encrusted pad, is that your. terminology?" He said, "Yeah, that's how. I describe it." Uh because Timothy Leary. back in the 1960s says that these these. elf-like insect beings were proffering.

this jewel-encrusted pad. Um like a a. device um that was some, you know, some. kind of. futuristic iPad thing. >> Um would an Amazonian see that? Because they'd have no context for. anything like that. Would they see that? >> That's a good question. We don't know, right? That's This is the kind of study. that needs to be done is get people who. are completely naive to pure injected. DMT. >> Right. >> And bring them in. um and see, you know, what what do they.

see? Because the experience is likely to. be very different to ayahuasca. Um for a number of reasons, but but but. yeah, do they see the same kind of. technological devices? Um Or do they. not? And you know, what what is the. reason for that? But um But yeah, there's there's always this sense that. you're interacting with some kind of. uh extremely advanced species. Um. extremely advanced cognitively, intellectually, technologically, like a. hypertechnological. kind of um.

species or ecology. Um and they they they. they seem often eager to show you. things, devices, multi. impossible things, you know, nine-dimensional Fabergé eggs, Terence. McKenna used to describe them. You know, just weird things, liquid light crystal. machine. things. You [laughter] know, things that you. can't really but just things that kind. of thing as if as if they're trying to. uh impart some kind of information or.

trying to make you understand, but you. don't understand, and that's what's so. frustrating about it. Um and Anton in. the same way, when he was presented with. this jewel-encrusted pad, he couldn't. make any sense of it. And eventually. they just gave up, and they kind of says. there was like a. like a swipe as if and then the whole. scene completely changed. He was in this. completely different environment. Um. yeah, so. lots of very strange. um experiences coming out. But I think. what where DMTX really comes into its. own is being able to spend Imagine if.

you'd sent in, you know, a mathematician. or a linguist who was who was a. familiar with strange symbolisms and. languages or. uh or. or whatever, somebody who could spend. an hour within the space interacting. with these beings and trying to extract. certain types of information from these. beings. I think that's that's how I see. the future of a DMTX program as opposed. to research programs of the past, which.

have generally been, "Have you taken. psychedelics before? Yes, good. Do you. have any heart conditions? No, okay. There you go. Go in, tell us what you. see.". Uh but. >> It's not With DMTX you can bring them. out r-. can't you? Get them to describe what they saw and. then put them back. >> Exactly. So you So not only can you send. in specialists. So if you want to study, you know, the topology or the geometry. of the space, you send in a. mathematician that's familiar with these. kind of things and they can say, "Oh, this is a. seven-dimensional space or this is these.

are the symmetry groups that are on the. walls of this space." They can tell you. exactly what's going on. mathematically, you know, um. and what's changed compared to the. normal waking world, and they can spend. Yes, they can spend. you know, it could be. deep within the space for. an hour or longer or you can adjust in. real time. So they can have a device. where they can adjust the infusion rate. So the. the amount of DMT being. uh infused into their bloodstream, they. can manipulate that in real time.

Because DMT is so short-acting, um if. you. bring down the infusion rate within just. a minute or so, you start to come out. and then you can communicate with the. team and say, "I'm seeing this. I'm. seeing this." And they might say, "Oh, can you Can you look for this? Or can. you ask them this?" Okay, I'm going back. in. Then you go back down again. Uh you know, so you have this ability to. manipulate the depth in real time. >> It's fascinating. >> Yeah. >> What What got you thinking that maybe. what people are seeing is connected and. it's not a hallucination? That it's.

that it's a realm or. >> Yeah, I mean, I So, what I think's going on with DMT. um is I don't think you're going. anywhere. That's really important. You're not It's not like another. dimension or something like that. Um. even in the DMT state, the brain is. constructing this model, right? So, normally what's happening when you're. awake and completely sober is your brain. is using sensory information, let's say. through your eyes, and it's using it to. kind of. um tune and keep its model kind of tuned.

to the environment, basically. Um Now, when you take DMT, the brain. starts constructing this alternate world. model. Um and it's as if there's some alternate. source of sensory information coming. into the brain that's kind of modulating. that DMT world. So, you're not going. anywhere. You You don't have to kind of. travel anywhere. It's simply a It's like. switching the channel, right? If you. have a TV set and you're watching. channel one, um then you switch the TV set to channel. two, and it nothing goes anywhere. It's.

simply that you've changed the. receiving. >> Well, you know, >> You said that. it's like you're receiving. an alternate reality. How do you know. that you're receiving it not creating. it? >> Well, you are creating it. Um you're. always creating the world model. Uh but. again, from the in the normal waking. world, you're receiving sensory. information, which is informing that. creation. So, it's it's it's like it's. It's all. It's always being created by the brain, but it's mapped to the environment, the.

normal waking world, right? It's. modulated and it's it's kind of. constrained by sensory information. coming from the environment, right? Now, in the DMT state, what I think is. happening is that your your brain is. constructing this alternate world, but. it's being constrained by some other. source of sensory inputs, uh which I. think distinguishes it from a. hallucination. Now, the reason I think. that, because you could say, you're. quite right, that it's purely. constructed, right? There's no other. source of information coming in. It's.

literally like a kind of dream state. Uh. but again, you know, the dream state is. very different. We can explain the dream. state. Uh the DMT state is like this. It's like the brain has started speaking. a language it never learned to speak. Um. it's constructing these worlds that have. no relationship to the normal waking. world, no relationship to the world the. brain evolved and learned uh to. construct. Um and you It's hard to. explain that. You know, if a if a. 5-year-old British child started. speaking some obscure dialect of some.

South American indigenous rainforest. language, right? And doing so fluently, that would be completely confounding. unless he'd been taught it. Uh in the same way, the brain switching. to constructing this alien world uh so. efficiently um is very very very very. difficult to explain. Uh and that's kind. of the foundation of of why I think. there's something going on. more than just mere. than mere hallucination with with DMT,

but we need to test it. Um now, there are a number of ways you might do. that. For example, you you might look. for, you know, if if two people, for example, are going. let's say interacting with the same. entity, as some people claim to be able. to do. Um can you kind of pass. information through that entity? Can. someone deposit information into the DMT. state? >> I want to ask. >> retrieve it? >> I want to ask you about that that that. blue yellow test. Blue yellow test. I want to you about. that. Before we do that, mentioned Robin Carhart-Harris.

Let's steelman, strawman, cuz he he. disagrees and thinks it's hallucination. >> He does, yeah. >> Why does he think that and why [snorts]. is he wrong? >> [laughter]. >> I mean, I want you to be right, but. it's, you know, logically, parsimoniously, it seems like. hallucination is what it is. But I I. prefer your theory cuz it's just more. interesting. >> Well, I think I. I'm not going to say that Robin is. wrong, but I think I think Robin and all.

kind of mainstream, buttoned-down. neuroscientists start with that the. assumption that we're dealing with. hallucination. And I think that that's. reasonable, actually. Uh it should. always be your default position. Um in. most of my work, I would say 80% of what. I've done in the last 20 years is not. actually trying to convince people what. DMT is, but actually trying to convince people. what it's not. Uh I actually try to. explain to people why I don't think it's. hallucination, rather than telling them. that I have the answer, that, you know, with people it's the spirit world or.

whatever, the astral plane. Um I really try to. focus on kind of why I think it's very. difficult to explain DMT purely as a. uh as a hallucination. And Robin would. say, "Well, this is just um well, I can't I. can't I can't say what Robin would say, uh but it's Robin assumes that we're. dealing with some kind of information um. some kind of um. um some kind of hallucination that your.

brain, when perturbed by DMT, is is. constructing um these. um worlds, perhaps informed by. archetypal structures." That's a big. thing, I know, with Robin. He's. he often takes this very Youngian. >> Mhm. >> angle. He thinks that, well, we can. these are archetypal structures. That's. where they're coming from. These are. inherited patterns. That's why everyone. sees certain types of entities. It's. because these are embedded archetypal. structures. >> culture. >> In every culture. >> As little people.

>> Right. Ex- exactly. Um but I I I think that would work if. The thing thing is that archetypes are. not they're not images first of all. You. know, an archetype really. um we know now anyway um that an. archetype is really just a it's a. an inherited. mode of social interaction. So, you're. born with certain in animals we just. call them instincts, right? Uh a baby.

for example will want to be close to its. mother. It will see its mother as as a. source of warmth and comfort and safety. Um and will you know, smile when it sees. its mother's face. Whereas, when it sees. a stranger. uh it will uh it will be naturally kind. of scared and will start crying if it's. separated from its mother it will start. crying. These are instinctive behaviors. um that are are essential, right? In in. in animals. we have certain instinctive behaviors. that don't need to be learned. Uh if you.

take a a pair of young rats in a cage. that are entirely raised alone, put them. together uh in a cage, they will start. playing. Um they will start you know, scrapping. and all this kind of stuff. Um all. instinctive. They don't need to be. taught how to play. It's just. instinctive. Um you put a cat few cat. hairs into that cage. >> Right. >> they freeze. They're scared. Doesn't. work with dog hairs. >> Huh. >> It works with cat hairs, right? So, they.

have this innate program. We might call. it a cat archetype. Doesn't mean they. can dream of cats or that they can. imagine cats. They can't. But they have. this innate response to a cat. >> They know what that smell is. >> They know that that smell They don't. know what it is, but they know that. instinctively that they need to be a. little bit. careful because there's something. unsettling, there's something dangerous. here. And they don't need to be taught that, and that's kind of important. And in the. same way, humans have lots of these.

archetypes. The mother archetype, the father. archetype, the stranger, the wise old. man. What's the wise old man? Well, it's. an older member of the tribe who. has a lot of life experience and wisdom. and who you should listen to. The trickster. This is someone probably. from outside the tribe, maybe, who you need to be a little bit careful. around. You know, should you reveal your. darkest secrets to them or should you. remain tight-lipped? Should you listen. to what they say or should you should. you ignore them? You know, these these. are all types of social interactions.

that have been essential in as social. humans for. millennia, tens of millennia. And so, these are kind of hardwired, and. so these become associated with certain. types of people we call the archetypes. But they're not images. They don't endow. you with with the the ability to. construct images, but you learn to construct images. associated with them. As you do, as you. learn, your brain learns to construct. the normal waking world. They become. associated with certain types of the. mother archetype is becomes associated.

with your mother. And that kind of. thing. So, archetypes are kind of. limited in what they give you. They give. you these very kind of quick and dirty. ways of responding to to humans, to. certain types of humans that you're. likely to meet in the environment that. you should respond to in certain ways. You don't respond to your mother in the. same way you respond to a complete. stranger in a dark alley. We have these hardwired archetypes that. allow us to. differentiate those and respond in an. appropriate way.

But they don't give you hyperdimensional. worlds filled with non-human, non-animal. beings that are far more complex than. humans. You know, they don't give you. all of that stuff. And so, it still. it still doesn't explain, even if you. invoke the archetypes, why and how the. brain is able to construct these these. things so reliably. But again, I. understand that. not everyone is going to be convinced by. this, and I don't necessarily expect. them to uh be convinced by it. I'm not. trying to convince them that the DMT.

world really you really are interacting. with. um other intelligences in the DMT state, but I'm I'm just trying to trigger a. little. a little uh sliver of doubt in your mind. that actually there maybe is something. slightly unusual going on that we need. to study. Uh, we need to we need to really. um. study this space and study these. entities and with an open mind, and not. just assume from the get-go that it's. just a hallucination, and our job is. simply to explain how this hallucination.

works, uh because there's so much going. on in the DMT state that I think remains. um. a true mystery. >> Do Do you We know if Robin has tried. DMT? I don't want to out him. The reason. I ask is if you've tried it, then you. inherently feel like you're connected to. everything else. >> Yeah, I I. I do know the answer to that question, but I'm not sure if I can. >> That's fair enough. That's fair enough. [laughter]. Um. cuz when I when I read his uh his quote.

about hallucinations, I was thinking, Robin, I don't know if you've taken it. because it it's pretty mind-opening. Um. but there are some there are some. problems with it. That That I'll I want to talk about as. we move along. Uh, you mentioned rats, which brought me. to a question I wanted to ask. I think. we're finding that under cardiac arrest. brain's being flooded with DMT. >> Yeah. >> What do you think is going on there? >> Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay, there's a bit of a. story there. >> Okay.

>> So. So again, the reason I mentioned earlier. that people have been looking for DMT in. humans since the 1950s, And there's a. reason for that. Uh because there was. this idea that. uh something called the transmethylation. hypothesis of schizophrenia. Um which was the idea that you know. serotonin also comes from. tryptophan and tryptamine. Uh but if you kind of divert off the. serotonin production pathway, you can. get very easily to DMT. So when people. started when Sarah particularly started.

and other people started publishing. studies showing that DMT was. psychedelic uh and that it. could easily be produced from. tryptophan, they they thought, "Well, maybe. what's causing these. uh abnormal psychologies in in. schizophrenics is that they're they have. this disorder with that the tryptamine. metabolism and that that they're. producing too much DMT. >> Interesting. >> Make sense, right? And so easy to test, they started looking for DMT in urine.

and in in blood and saliva, etc. And. they found it. But the problem is that. they found it in basically everyone. >> Right. >> [laughter]. >> And there are some studies that I I. think there's been over a hundred. studies now looking at DMT levels in. humans since the 1950s and um there's. never been there's never really. convincing evidence that some studies. say, "Oh, there's more DMT in. schizophrenics." Other studies say, "No, there isn't." It's certainly not. definitive. And does it even make any. sense? Schizophrenics don't tend to.

you know, really like schizophrenic. visual hallucinations when they're. there. Mainly they're auditory. So so. hearing voices. Uh but when they do have visual visual. hallucinations, they tend to be of. normal appearing normal sized humans. >> And they tend to be in. the same space. >> Right. >> Where when you're on DMT, you're not. here anymore. You you are gone. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> So. >> So it's like that it's like you're in a. waking dream. It's like you're you know, you're your brain is inserted human into. your world model inappropriately. >> Right.

>> Uh they interact with the environment. They sit on chairs that are they walk. through doors. Uh Uh they don't walk. through walls. They did they seem to. obey the laws of physics, right? So, that's your brain kind of. again. uh using its stored object models and. models of the world, uh but not doing it. quite appropriately. That can be That's. relatively easy to explain. Um but anyway, going. back to um. the rats. Yeah, so. the the idea So,

the pineal gland, this is basically. taking us to the pineal gland. Um so, Rick Strassman in the 1990s, he proposed. that um DMT, we know that the pineal. gland is producing melatonin, this tiny. little gland about the size of the end. of my um. pinky, uh sits right in the center of the. brain. It has this exalted position in. mystical traditions for many, many. years. Um and Rick Strassman suggested that. perhaps pineal gland was releasing DMT.

Um. um and that this was responsible for. certain altered states of consciousness. or it it's very specifically the. near-death experience. Um this actually I should give proper. credit to Jace Callaway. In the 1980s, he proposed that dreaming was due to. DMT. That when you dream, your um your brain. stops. uh the tryptamine metabolism changes and. your brain stops producing serotonin and. basically starts producing DMT and that. causes dreaming. That was his.

hypothesis. You have two hypotheses. One. is that DMT causes dreams, which I don't. think is true either cuz dreams are. nothing like DMT. >> Right. >> And then the near-death experience, that's more compelling. >> Yes, it is. >> It's more compelling. There have been. some recent studies that showed there. are very. there is a kind of a. quite a large overlap between the the. kinds of experiences people have during. near-death experiences and the DMT. phenomenology. They're not exactly the. same. >> And only 10 to 20% of those people have. that experience. The rest don't. >> Exactly. Yeah. Including Don Hoffman.

actually, but that's another story. >> We were almost up to Don. I can't. [laughter] wait. So, so what do you. think is happening? Why is it Why Why. did [snorts] we evolve to have that. there? >> So, >> is that why we're seeing the tunnel? When I see the Virgin Mary or I see my. grandmother, my mother, am I seeing an. entity? >> So, that's the hypothesis, right? So, Rick Strassman said said that when you. die or what when you're in during the. dying process, the brain is flooded with. DMT and that this is kind of the the.

conduit by which the soul exits the. body. It's a very mystical kind of It's. not purely a scientific. He's definitely. strayed into the mystical realms here. Kind of exited the scientific arena a. little bit. Um. >> You kind of have to. >> You kind of have to. Yeah. Um but it was. purely hypothetical. It was just a. hypothesis um that a number of people. caught onto and so the DMT dream DMT. death thing has become kind of embedded. in. in public consciousness, but they're. both purely hypotheses. However,

um more recently um a guy called. biochemist, I think he's a biochemist, Edi Frazer is working with Rick. Strassman and Dennis McKenna. Uh he. found that um. DMT, when you if you. if you have some neurons that are. deprived of oxygen, so brain cells, you. deprive you deprive them they they are. very oxygen hungry. Uh if you deprive them from oxygen, we. deprive them of oxygen, they die very. quickly. This is why strokes are so. devastating. Um in a very short period.

of time, blood flow to certain parts of. the brain is compromised. That That part. of the brain starts to die. This is why. strokes need to be treated so so. rapidly. It's an absolute critical, you. know, clinical emergency. Um. but what he found is that if you deprive. neurons of oxygen and added some DMT to. the mix, the neurons survived much. longer. >> A neuroprotective. >> neuroprotective. And it's actually a. particular receptor. called the sigma-1 receptor.

>> Yes. It's not the not the serotonin. receptor, sigma-1 receptor. It binds to. this and it it it protects the neurons. in some way. There's some biochemical. cascade that that helps. helps the neurons to survive for much. longer. So then you think about this, oh. wait a minute, what happens during the. dying process? Well, your cardiovascular. and respiratory system start to. collapse. Your brain is starved. gradually more and more starved of. oxygen. Now, this is precisely the time. when. you know, if you do come back. >> right, if you don't die, this is.

precisely the time when you need as much. DMT in your brain as possible to help. protect your brain. So if you do come. back the brain is protected cuz this is. the most oxygen, you know, hypoxia. sensitive organ in the body. And so it. would make sense that if you're dying. that somehow DMT endogenous DMT. production is ramped up very very. rapidly and you get this flood of DMT in. the brain which protects the brain. Doesn't explain the experience, however, because you can do this with any. molecule that binds to the sigma-1.

receptor. So it suggests there's some. connection there with the dying process. And so they. recently they they tested this in in. rats. They would they would stop the. rat's heart induce basically cardiac. arrest in in a rat and they would they. have these things called these like. micro. what are they called? I forget, but anyway, they have this. system where they can actually measure. they can put this device. this probe directly into a rat's living.

rat's brain and actually measure in real. time the levels of various molecules. Kind of incredible thing. >> Mhm. >> And they found indeed that when the rat. heart stopped levels of DMT rose very. very kind of this spike in DMT. There. was also other neurotransmitters that. were that were spiking as well. So, whether it's specific to DMT is not. doesn't seem to be. Uh, but it it kind. of fits together, right? That when. you're dying, the brain or the brain or. could be the lungs, we don't know, uh,

but levels of DMT in the brain at least, uh, rise and this protects the brain. >> Have they Have they been able to test on. the rats different brain activity? >> No. I So, you're suggesting like they. can measure the the NDE of the. >> Right. I'm wondering what kind of. experience they. >> It sounds like all mammals would do. this. Or it's what it sounds like. I'm just. wondering. does every animal, when it goes through. this process, does their reality change? Do they move to this new dimension?

>> This is a Yeah. Unless unless you you. kind of undergo a rebirth as as a rat, we're not likely to find that out. I. mean, you certainly you can measure. >> Couldn't you test the Couldn't you test. their brain waves to see. >> Yes, you can. You can. You can, but. whether you can do that at the same time. as this micro That's called. microdialysis, that's it. Uh, you can. do that at the same time as this. measuring the level thing. You probably. have to do it. separately. You would You have these. like tiny little MRI machines, very cute. little MRI machines. I've seen those. You could probably do.

that. >> Barbie MRI. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, I don't think it's been done. though, but um, it's yeah. >> Uh, a quick side track and then I want. to get to blue yellow. 5-MeO-DMT. is something that that. I'm not interested in doing. But that seems to be real dark ego death. very quickly where. with DMT, there's some ego dissolving, but you're still. you're still narrating and you're still.

remembering what So, there is you're. still kind of driving. With 5-MeO, it's a little bit. you're more observing and you kind of go. into the void. >> Yeah. They They used to call. 5-MeO and DMT the power and the glory. >> Oh. >> Right? So, DMT is the glory. It's It's. very It's It's obviously it's. characterized by extremely content-rich. It's extremely visual. It's a full of. stuff. More full of stuff than than our. waking world. Um so, it's a beautiful.

experience in many Can be horrifying as. well, but it is a beautiful, rich, incredibly, exquisitely rich and complex. kind of experience. >> Yeah, not everybody from DMTX had a had. a had a glorious experience. I read a. couple of that were like. those evil motherfuckers or I read a. couple of those dark ones. >> Oh, there are some dark ones. >> Sure, for sure. But, generally, it's. less than 10%. >> Yeah, it's it's a bad trip. >> It's a bad trip. Um but, yeah, I Carl. Smith, going back to him, he was subject. zero at Imperial College. He said to me.

many years ago, he says, "If DMT is like. the fourth dimension, 5-MeO is like the. 12th dimension.". >> Yep. >> Um it's like you go past. all the form. You You transcend forms. If you go far enough. beyond you can you can actually go. beyond DMT, uh this highly structured. form and content-rich state into the. void, into pure white light of. consciousness itself. That's the 5-MeO. And he actually said during his DMTX. experience that he was able to sometimes.

see the 5-MeO space kind of. there, some way away, whilst he was in. the DMT space. As if he could almost. reach it, as if they were connected in. some way. >> That's it. Very interesting. >> Yeah. >> That's very interesting. Um. I don't know if you want to say it, but. have you experienced 5-MeO? >> Uh And I, like you, I'm in no hurry. I've got my hands full with DMT. Thank. you very much. >> I'm in no hurry, either, because, yeah,

I'm. And you can buy that online from these. churches. Don't do that. I don't. recommend. Don't buy anything from the. churches. >> Don't go chasing toads down in. >> Um what was What was that church that. you that you criticized? >> [laughter]. >> They're still in business, by the way. >> Are they really? >> Oh, yes. Yes, yes. >> Good. Yeah, it was the church of used to be. called [snorts] the church of salvia. methoxin. Then it became the church of. the sacred synthesis, I think. >> Yep. They're Yeah, they're still They're. still operating. And um.

it's a couple of lawyers that are. running basically a church farm. I think. they've claimed that they've helped. create something like 80 to 100 of these. sacrament churches. They I mean, they. wrote a couple of books on how to do it. to get around. being able to buy drugs in the mail. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> But I just want people to know that. that's It's not legal what they're. doing. >> No. >> Um so so So don't send them money.

>> No, no. I mean, they they say that the. the sacrament doesn't contain They said. it doesn't contain any. The illegal parts of the mushroom is. that the psilocybin, the psilocin. They. said it doesn't contain any of that and. it's just salvia methoxin, this. molecule, sacred molecule that they. produce. But actually, when people. analyze samples of this this sacrament. uh it actually contained no salvia. methoxin whatsoever and it was purely. just It was just magic mushrooms. So. they've been shipping that to people. um including internationally as well. >> Oh, boy. >> Um so you pay a you know, subscription.

fee. and um you get shipped these. allegedly perfectly legal mushrooms cuz. salvia methoxin itself, the molecule, isn't illegal. So they should be. completely legal, but actually, if. someone was to if. one of these samples was was. intercepted, it's like you can get in. really serious trouble depending on. where you lived. Um it's uh and and it's. such a What really annoys me about them. is that it's such a simple thing to do. Um you know, he had this vision that um. if you feed 5-MeO-DMT to magic.

mushrooms, they start converting. 5-methoxy-DMT to psilomethoxin. It's a. simple chemical step. >> Wasn't that based on debunked research, though? >> It was. The. Halton Morris recently debunked it, yeah. >> Okay. >> By a guy called Gartz. But anyway, you know, once they'd done. that experiment, nothing wrong with. doing the experiment, um. they should have done the obvious thing, which is to analyze, chemically analyze. It shouldn't have been left to some. outside person, some independent group.

to actually analyze the mushrooms and. check that it doesn't contain psilocybin. and psilocin, and actually contains what. they say it contains. They just said, "Oh, it feels completely different to. mushrooms." You know, completely biased. subjective uh way uh um. um. of kind of appraising this this. mushroom. And then when. a group did actually analyze it, as I. said, there was no psilomethoxin in. there whatsoever. Um and of course they threatened to they. tried to um.

sue them for $1 million $1 million. Uh. >> [laughter]. >> Literally it was, you know, several. people, lots of people they tried to. sue. >> Well, they're lawyers, they're not. chemists, they're not scientists, they're lawyers, so they're they're. going to sue. They lost every case they. sued. Yeah. Um yeah, so guys, don't that's um. I'm. Andrew won't say but I will. Um Greg Lake and Ben We. Stay away from all those churches.

That's the uh. I feel like those those churches. kind of cloud the legitimate research. Don't you? >> Well, it depends on the church, I guess. I mean, I think. I think humans really do have a. a a. There is a God-given right to alter. their consciousness in however they they. they feel fit. Um. and if that includes using psilocybin.

mushrooms or ayahuasca or DMT or. whatever, I I don't think that should be. a crime and I think there is something. extremely wrong with the idea that. certain states of consciousness are. basically illegal. I mean, yes, it's the. molecule, but really it's not the. molecule, you know, what's important is. what it does to you, what it does to. your consciousness. And so, it basically. means that the LSD-induced state of. consciousness is illegal, the. DMT-induced state of consciousness is an. illegal state of consciousness. Um. so, I I think. peop- I I I can un- fully understand.

people who who who would try to find. loopholes in the law and, you know, more. power to them to do that. Uh but. wh- when you start creating churches, I. think then you you there's a danger of. you getting into kind of cultish. territory, starting your own religion. Um some for some people it's clearly. just a way of getting around the law. Uh. but for other people, like the Church of. the Sacred Mushroom, for example, it. becomes much more than that and they. start making big. big money from this. I mean, the $50,000. a month, I think, was a number, don't.

quote me on that, uh but it was a big. number. >> I think in the lawsuit it was $100,000 a. month. >> Uh yeah, [sighs and gasps] okay. There. you go. So, $100,000 a month, uh and. then some some guys publish a paper. basically saying that your the the. entire foundation of your sacrament you. know, people are paying $100 a month, whatever it is, for 30 g of dried. mushroom, something that could be. obtained for pennies, really, if you. grow your own. Um. someone shows that that's nonsense and. that it's not scientifically valid. Um. you go from $100,000 a month to a very.

small number and you can imagine them. being pretty pissed off by that. But, it's their own fault. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We'll leave it on that. That up note about the churches. [laughter]. All right. We'll be right back, guys. It's going to. get wild. I want to ask you about this. Back in 2021, something you posted. >> Going back. >> Retrieved and carefully restored from. the archives of the highly secretive and. now allegedly defunct laboratory for.

reality engineering Tokyo. With its own psychedelic molecular. technology technical manual. That is not. a paper. >> [laughter]. >> That is not a scientific paper. That's. What is that? A world building? An ARG? What What were you doing? >> So, that's from my. So, my second book Reality Switch. Technologies, psychedelics as tools for. the discovery and exploration of new. worlds. So, that was kind of a concept. book. I mean, fundamentally, it's a book about how do.

psychedelic molecules. um alter the structure and dynamics of. your world? How do they allow you to. explore other worlds, basically? Um it's. a. It takes you through the all the way. from the chemistry through to the the. biochemistry and the pharmacology and. the neuroscience and. looks at DMT. It looks at the classic. psychedelics generally. It looks at. salvinorin. It looks at even ketamine, things like that. And basically, it's. like a manual for understanding. psychedelics, basically. But, it's But,

it was kind of like a concept. book in that I wanted I wanted to give. it this kind of. um. this kind of feeling as. I guess like this kind of cyberpunk vibe. as being this. >> Yes. >> this a kind of old document from this. defunct reality engineering institute in. Tokyo. That was the vibe. Uh you know, kind of Akira kind of thing. That's what. I wanted So, if you if you actually buy. that book, the whole book looks like. it's been. kind of photocopied. It's like one of.

these declassified CIA documents with. all the stamps on and the. >> retracted bit. No, that you can still. get that. I'm going to I'm going to do. that. >> Yeah, it's uh it. >> It was a very. >> I love that book. Uh and that whole. reality There's some photos in the. center of the book that that purported. to be from this now defunct secretive. reality engineering institute in Tokyo, which of course is. just a figment of my imagination. >> I bet a lot of people hopped on board. though with that. >> A lot of people did and they would write. to me as well and say hey I think.

there's a problem with the printing on. this book. >> [laughter]. >> Looks like it's been photocopied. So. yeah, that's. part of the design. >> [laughter]. >> I thought it was great. >> Um. >> So let's talk about the blue yellow. screen test. >> Right. >> How does that work and what are what are. you trying to prove? And is that. connected to traces of other. with the. with Don. and Niffa? >> Yeah, so. so obviously.

you know, I can. talk until the cows come home until you. know, explaining why I I think DMT is. more than hallucination. Um but we. really need real. tests. Uh experiment What what what are. the kind of experiment test that we. could do. um that that can distinguish between. actual interfacing with some kind of. intelligence versus pure hallucination. Um and. and so in 2015 I started working with.

uh a nonprofit in Florida called New. Nautics and now one of the. directors and we we're interested in. kind of. kind of like we describe it as like a. SETI of the mind kind of program. Rather. than looking for. intelligence out there in the cosmos, we're looking for intelligence in in our. paths. through outer space as Rick Strassman. called it. Um. and so we we're interested in kind of. spearheading and developing research. various research projects um within this.

kind of psychedelic arena to actually. study things that other people don't. study, right? Actually, most people. assume it's hallucination and so they. wouldn't dream of doing these kind of. experiments trying to actually test. that. Um and so New Nautic, people can. go to the New Nautics website, newnautics.org, n a u n a u t i c s o r g find out all. about the work we do. Um people can even. donate if they want to to help kind of. fund that kind of research. Um. and now with the DMTX technology,

now that we have this ability. um to. uh extend the DMT state. We can actually. do experiments now. And now we even have. the venue, I mentioned Eleusis earlier, uh e l e u s i s based on, you know, the. Eleusinian mysteries. So, uh we have. this legal setting where people can go. and we can actually bring in cohorts. We're like the research arm of Eleusis. at New Nautics. We can design these. experiments. Uh we can actually bring. people onto the the island in in the.

Caribbean, St. Vincent and the. Grenadines. Um and. um perform experiments aimed at studying. the DMT space and testing the DMT space, doing experiments within the DMT space. >> [snorts]. >> Um and so this blue yellow. So, basically what we want to know is when. someone goes into the DMT space and. they're interacting with some kind of. entity, let's say, uh are they really interacting with some. kind of independent agency? Uh and how do we test that? And it's.

one can imagine a whole suite of. different experiments that one could do. I don't I don't think you you you. there's kind of one mic drop experiment. that's going to settle the question once. and for all, but you can imagine various. research programs aimed at testing that. And one broad type of experiment is. looking for. um some kind of. correlation. um within the DMT experience that that.

that can't be uh explained in terms of. the subject couldn't know, right? So, I. I mentioned earlier this idea of. um someone depositing information into. the DMT space and someone else. retrieving it later on and that would. show there's some sort of communication. channel. Another type of experiment, which is this blue yellow one you. mentioned, uh is can a DMT entity. uh can they track some kind of external. variable that the subject doesn't know? Right? So, it could be the simplest case.

is some kind of binary variable, right? It could be switching between two. colors, right? So, in another room. completely isolated from the subject, you have a computer screen. uh that's set to randomly switch at. random intervals between two different. variables. Most simplest idea would be two colors, right? A blue screen and a yellow. screen, simple as that. What we want to. know uh is can. some entity. uh can their behavior in some way be. tracked to that variable?

Right? So, for example, the subject goes. into the DMT space, starts interacting. with an entity. So, here we've got. trained people who can reliably interact. and with with certain entities. Uh and. then basically, we can ask the subject. um. to basically. at intervals at set intervals, they need. to say, "Okay, is is is the screen blue. or yellow?" Right? Uh based upon your. experience, right? They could be asking. the entity directly, um is it blue or.

yellow? Now, uh or it could be just like. what feeling what what are the dominant. colors within the space? Maybe they're. not even interacting with an entity. Uh. just what vibe do you get based upon. your experience? Um. do you are you leaning more towards blue. now or leaning more towards yellow? And. sometimes that might be obvious, you. know, if the experience becomes brightly. colored yellow, then they would say. yellow. But, it might be much more. subtle than that and they might have to. kind of guess a little bit. But, the. idea basically is simply that. Um when.

you when you perform that experiment. with a subject, you compare the actual. random flipping between blue and yellow, or whatever other binary variable you. choose, is there a correlation, statistical correlation that is beyond. what would be expected by chance? And if. if so, if you achieve that, then that. suggests that yes, the DMT state, the. entities within the DMT state, can. somehow track. So, it's not It's not. like. many people have proposed experiments.

where you go into the DMT space and you. say to an entity, "If you're so smart, um, you know, um, break down this complex number, this. this large number into its unique prime. factors." Basically asking them to uh, perform. perform things, perform mathematical. operations. I think that's That's quite. an ask. >> don't want to do that. >> They probably don't want to do that. >> Didn't you have one entity who just. said, "We're done for today for today?". >> Oh, yeah, we'll get to that. Yeah. >> Okay. >> to do with the lockout effect. Very. interesting. I didn't mention that,

actually. That's another reason why I. don't think But, we'll get to that. >> Okay. >> But, yeah, so So, I think this is a much. simpler experiment, uh, in that you're. simply asking someone to basically say. blue or yellow. >> What makes you think that the entities. can see into our world so easily? >> We don't know that. We don't know that, um, which is why you have a number of. experiments. So, you might be asking, again, you know, deposit retrieval, that's slightly different. Here, you're. looking at an information channel, uh, into and out of the DMT state. This is. more tracking an external variable.

Um, you might ask, um, the entities to. um, or. sometimes, rather than giving the. entities tasks, this is. something I really struggle with, um, is. that you. requiring the cooperation of an entity, for them even to know what you mean. There's nothing guaranteed, we'll get to. this when we talk about Don Hoffman. Uh, there's nothing guaranteed in my current. model of of of of DMT that's that. that requires or even implies that these.

entities are. highly intelligent in the human sense, but they seem to occupy a space that is. geometrically, dimensionally, and. topologically very, very different. And. so they're doing things even in that. space that cannot be done. within. the normal waking world. And they kind of betray their. intelligence in a way.

You don't need to ask them to do things. They just do things that the human brain. can't. Right? So if it's a. hallucination, then obviously what that. entity can do is limited by what your. brain can do. >> Right. >> If the entity starts speaking. ancient Greek and you don't know ancient. Greek, we've got a problem here, right? Now, if an entity starts performing. mathematical operations, starts doing. things, right, that your human brain. cannot do, then we've got a problem here. to explain.

Andres. part of or founded the Qualia Research. Institute, probably the most important. group on the planet now who's really. studying the the mathematics of of of. the DMT state, and the topology, and the. the dimensional structure, and all of. that stuff. He describes entities doing. things that a human can't do. mathematically, right? Painting surfaces with certain. colors. So there's something called the. four-color theorem,

which states that whenever you have a. surface that's got different shapes all. perfectly tessellated like a map. >> Mhm. >> You can color every shape with a with. with four colors so that no two shapes. about with the same color. So go comes. back to the idea of coloring a map of. the of all the countries. If you only. need four colors to paint every country. with a different color so no two. countries have the same color kind of. budding up against each other. It's. called the four color theorem and you.

can do it with any kind of map. Uh but. the more complex the map becomes, the. more cognitively demanding it becomes. Eventually it becomes impossible for a. human to actually color these surfaces. Uh but what he noticed these entities. doing was. you having these exquisitely complex. often higher dimensional. or. with surfaces with strange topological. structures and and these entities. painting these surfaces with four colors. just perfectly as if demonstrating.

uh their abilities. And he said, you. know, I couldn't do this. It would take. me. hours or longer to do what they were. doing in a fraction of a second. And. repeatedly they paint the surface and. then they would reset it and then paint. it again and then do it again. repeatedly. Um. and most people if they saw that, they. would go. that was, you know, crazy or that was. weird or that was beautiful. But they. wouldn't understand what they were. actually looking at. >> I wouldn't. >> No. No no I would no no would I. No no. would I.

>> Neither would I. Nor would I. >> I was I was surprised by all the math in. Traces of Other and in Hofmann's. theories. There's a lot of math in it. >> There's a lot of math and I think you. need you need the maths. >> [snorts]. >> to so we say maths in the UK. I can't I. can't bring myself to say math. >> [laughter]. >> You need the mathematics to really kind. of to understand the DMT state. Because. it is entirely different. It's not the. simple three plus one dimensional world. that we live in. It's very very. different and being able to go in there. and say.

how it's different, why it's different, what's going on. And this is why I said. earlier you send in specialists into the. DMT state. You send in people like. Andres. who can say, "Look, what these entities. are doing is not just beautiful or. strange. It's impossible for a human. brain to do, Uh or far beyond normal. human cognitive capacities, even in the. most intelligent of people like Andres. Um, and so those are the kind of things. you see, where the entities are actually. betray their intelligence,

displaying it. They're not giving you. numbers or giving you blueprints for the. time machine. I don't think it works. like that, but they're they're doing. things that you just have to recognize. are beyond human capabilities. And and. and in that way uh, you. you know, that's another piece of. evidence that we're dealing with. something that is beyond the human, shall we say. >> That's very interesting. Um, can you give us just a simple example of. how the maths.

apply. to this work? >> Yeah, well, [snorts] so. >> I'm just trying to get a foundation. before we get into Don Hoffman. >> Okay, yeah, well, we can get into Don. Don Hoffman because the mathematics. definitely applies there. >> Yes. >> Uh, so. so I've been. um, kind of following Don Hoffman, Donald Hoffman, professor, um, cognitive scientist, University of. California at Irvine, for for decades.

Um, and he has this. mathematical model, um, that he calls conscious agent theory. >> Mhm. >> It's what he calls, um, conscious realism, which posits that consciousness is. fundamental. Uh, and that reality consists of and. only of conscious agents interacting. Um, so everything we see and perceive is. the result of the interaction of these. conscious agents. And he has this. precise mathematical model, um,

from which he can kind of boot up. physical reality. So rather than this. failed program of assuming that matter. is fundamental and trying to boot up. consciousness from. dead. uh inert physical matter. Um he's going. in the opposite direction, which I think. is the correct one. Assume that. consciousness is fundamental, try to get. the appearance of the physical world. from consciousness and from the. interaction of conscious agents. So, he. starts with a conscious agent, which is. very. >> got his math to work through game.

theory. Like it Like the math is. legitimately works. >> The mathematics legitimately works, and. it's it's incredible really that he. starts with a very simple kind of. minimal assumption model of a conscious. agent. A conscious agent is an agent. that can do basically three things. It. can perceive other conscious agents. It. can make decisions based upon what it. perceives, and it can perform actions um.

which affect other conscious agents. So, you have to you this kind of network. emerges of conscious agents who are all. interacting via perception. And what we. see and what we observe um is this. interface. We never perceive the. conscious agent network directly cuz. it's far too complex. Effectively, this infinite network of. conscious agents. What we see is this. um interface that allows us um to. interact in adaptive ways with the. environment. >> Everything's an icon. >> Everything's an icon, right?

>> is the fitness before truth method. >> This is fitness before truth. Um and so, that was his original idea that he's. been developing and testing in various. ways over the last few decades. And most. recently, uh he started uh he came up. with this what's called the trace logic. Um the mathematics are a little bit. sophisticated. I don't want to get too. much into that. Um. I'll get out of my depth pretty quickly. as well. Um but. what he found is that. using this new model um he could.

actually kind of boot up. um not just the world as it appears to. us, but he could also boost up um um. relativity. So, he could explain within. this conscious agent theory. uh trace logic uh model. um you know, why. time dilation. and uh the contraction of high speeds. and all this kind of stuff that comes. from relativity uh which we thought was. kind of fundamental to the way it's kind. of space-time works. Actually, he can. get it from just the interactions of.

conscious agents. You know, he can get. he can get he derived the Schrödinger. equation. I mean, it's incredible stuff, yeah, uh. just from basic conscious agents. And. so, um just a few months ago actually. I got an email from a guy called Gaspard. who's working with Don. He's he's he's um kind of built this. thing called the the Trace Institute. based upon Don Hoffman's work to kind of. start to build Don's legacy because Don. Hoffman's kind of disorganized in some. ways and there's all this stuff that's.

floating around in papers and interviews. and other stuff. Which there's kind of. uh kind of properly organized archive. and an institute to actually follow on. his work and kind of pick up the mantle. so to speak. So, Gaspard, who's also been following. my work, said to to Don, you should. you should read this guy, Andrew. Gallimore, you know, read his book Death. by Astonishment because a lot of the. ideas in here, you know, I talk about. intelligent agents in a very neutral.

way. I don't talk so much about aliens. or spirits or that kind of thing. I'd. say we're dealing with some kind of. intelligent agent in the DMT state. Don. Hoffman talks about conscious agents. So, Gaspard quite rightly noted that. there seemed to be some overlap here. Um. there is. perhaps some. cross-fertilization between our uh. different ways of. of looking at at reality. >> There is, but there's some conflict as. well. >> There might be some conflict um we we. can get into um but Gaspard said, you.

know, "Would you like to meet Don Hoffman? Um you know, Don would like to meet you. and have a discussion and see if where. where there is that overlap." And so um. uh we met online and. straightaway I said, "Should we write a paper on this and see. see if we can see where that the. connection is." And. I. it was. honestly, and I I I I don't say this. lightly, it was one of the most profound. few months of my life. Um. >> And this is a preprint just last month,

I think, right? >> Preprint we published just last month. Um and it was it was. I I kind of had this working model of. what DMT was doing, that it was. um. that it was kind of gating access to. some other source of sensory. information, but I never, within the. physicalist framework, there was no way. for me to explain, how does information. come from somewhere else? It's not. coming through the normal sensory. organs. Where's that information coming. from? I didn't have an answer to it.

Until I started working with Don's. model. Um so. in my second book, which we just spoke. about, reality switch technologies, I. developed this concept called the world. space. So. remember that your brain is always. constructing the world. Uh and so there's kind of a vast state. space of all possible worlds that your. brain can construct, right? Normally, we. sit within this very small region of. what I call the world space. Well, this.

the consensus reality space. Um but there are all these other. worlds, world moments. A world is just. everything you're experiencing at a. particular moment, and your brain is. constantly moving between these states. So, if you take this vast landscape of. all possible world moments, I call that. the world space. And normally, we sit. within this very narrow region. It's. like a well, an attractor basin within. this world space, the consensus reality. space. Uh and that's the normal waking. world. Those are the states that.

represent the structure, the content, and dynamics of the normal waking world. What DMT does, as I postulate in reality. switch technologies, is it perturbs the. brain and it pushes it into a different. region of this world space landscape, and this is where the DMT worlds are. represented. But what I didn't have in that model was. how information. comes in to actually kind of modulate. that, you know, modulate that experience. It was just. how does the brain go from. building the normal waking world to the.

DMT world. So then I started working with Don's. model and then a mathematician called. Niffer Hermanson, who's absolutely. pivotal making this all the mathematics. work. And we basically we we we probed the. model. We said, "Okay, if normally we. we only sit within a narrow a very small. region of what Don Hoffman calls the. experience space. It's the same idea. >> Mhm. >> A conscious agent has this vast set of.

states, vast numbers of different. experiences. And we sit within this very. narrow region of this experience space. So it's the same idea as the world. space. Um but what Don Hoffman's work. has is kind of the experience space is. simply a set of states, all possible. states that a conscious agent had could. have, all possible experiences. Um but what sits on top is this. mathematical structure. called a Markov kernel, which is called. the qualia kernel. What that does is it.

gives dynamical structure to the. experience space. So what that means is. if you're in this state now, what are. the probability that you'll move to this. state or this state or this state? So it. gives that dynamics. It determines the. dynamics of. how you move through around the. experience space. And as I said, you. normally we will sit within this very. small region of the total experience. base, which is the adaptive region, where we we experience the normal waking.

world. It's very thin, very very small. location within the. the experience base. And that's determined by the qualia. kernel, which is evolved within that. region of the experience base to create. the world that we experience. However, if you can perturb the brain, perturb the conscious agent, you can. knock it out of this region of the. experience base into an entirely. different region, where the normal rules that are. basically. applied by this qualia kernel, they no.

longer apply. So, you enter a. a type of experience, a type of being. within the world that is completely. different, right? This is purely. abstract at the moment. We're not. thinking about DMT. You enter in a region of the experience. base where the dynamics are completely. different. The Markovian rules, the. Markovian dynamics that determine how. you experience. the world within this region of the. experience base are completely. different. Now, the qualia kernel that sits, as I say,

that's determining these dynamics is. actually composed of three different. kernels, the the perception, the decision, and. the action kernels. So, there's three. parts. So, together, they determine not. just what is your experience like within. this region of the experience base, but. how are you interacting with the larger, the broader conscious agent network. What kinds of other conscious agents can. you. interact with? Can you perceive? Because.

in this region, the consensus reality. space, you only can only interact with a. very, very limited number of conscious. agents. But in this region of the. experience base, we proposed, you might. be able to interact with agents that are. normally completely imperceptible. >> Let me ask a question, then. >> Go on. >> Information theory would say that that. other region is just a lossy projection. and you can never fully know what's. there. because. it may even be Don's work where it and N.

can't be greater than M. So, brain is. finite. We can't perceive other dimensions. because. our brain just can't do it. So, if we're going into these other. worlds, it has to just be a shadow of. the world because we we really can't. know. >> Well, okay, yes. So, that the world you. experience is always is always the. interface. So, you can never get out of. the interface, but the interface would. change as you move the different regions. of the experience space. So, what you. see in the interface is determined by.

the dynamics that are imposed by this. qualia kernel, right? So, in this. region, we experience this low-dimensional. world. We're interacting with this very. limited number of conscious agents that. are that are that through the our. perception channel, our perception. kernel, we're able to kind of render. that information in a way that makes. sense to us. But once you move into this. other region of the experience space, so. we propose, the the dynamical. constraints are completely different.

So, the world wouldn't necessarily be. three plus one dimensional. It It could. be completely different. It could be. completely alien. The geometry, the. topology could be completely alien. And. and the conscious agents that you can. interact with in that region of the. experience space could also be. completely different. >> So, your brain has to also be a. projection to make that work. >> Yes. >> Yes. Yes. You always work in conscious. agent theory or the brain itself is part. of the interface. You're a conscious. agent or a set of conscious agents. And.

we're talking purely about at the level. of the the ground of reality, if you. like. Um but what's beautiful is you can. actually, you know, this was purely. initially a kind of a mathematical. abstraction that we were doing, talking. about how the. the qualia kernel and the Markovian. dynamics, all of this stuff. But then we. said, "Okay, let's let's imagine what. that would actually be like if you were. knocked out of this region of the. experience space and you found yourself. in a different region of the experience. space where the Markovian dynamics are.

completely different and the. interactions between the broader. conscious agent network is completely. different. Well, it would be extremely. strange. Nothing would seem to make sense. It. would look impossible. It would look. perhaps high-dimensional. The topology, the geometry would be completely. different. The beings that you. interacted with would seem completely. alien. In other words, the the entirety of the DMT. phenomenology basically fell out of the. mathematics. >> It's elegant. >> And when that happened,

that was like. it was a profound moment in my life. Probably the one of the most profound. moments in my working life studying DMT. The DMT went from something. didn't quite make sense. You know, there's still missing pieces in the way. I thought about it and then suddenly. with Don's model, everything falls into place. >> It does. >> But even then, that world, those entities are still. just icons and projections. >> Yes. Yeah. So So what you have to think. is that So when you perceive another.

conscious agent, what's happening is. that conscious the way that that. conscious agent interacts with the. conscious agent network um changes the. states of the conscious agent network. and that has an influence on your. experience states. Doesn't mean you're. you. that you can map the actual conscious. agent dynamics directly into your. experience space. You can't. Uh but you. there is some influence, a statistical. influence on how your world states, how.

your experience states kind of update. And that's that's what perception is. And we form these icons. You know, I. never have access to your internal. dynamics. I have this highly simplified. icon. And when you're I'm perceiving. you, basically, what you are doing as a. conscious agent is is affecting my. experience. And that's basically what. perception is in the conscious realism. model. And that completely changes when. you go out of the. the.

consensus reality space, this very. limited region of the experience base. I. I can no longer see you. I'm I can no. longer represent you or anything. But, I start to be able to represent. highly unusual, exotic Markovian. dynamics that I simply couldn't do in. this state. And that's why we think. you're able to interact with other. conscious agents that aren't simply our. beyond the agents our representational. reach, if you like. We simply have no.

way to represent what they are doing in. any way. Once you move into this other. region of the experience base, because. the qualia kernel in that region is. completely different. So, this is a bit. complicated. But, you can you can start. to interact with the conscious agent. network in completely different ways. And that's what DMT is. You're. interacting with. It feels like you're in another world, because in a in a sense you are. It's. like the the headset has been changed. You're you're in a completely different. region of the experience base, and.

you're interacting with. other conscious agents that you weren't. you were unable to interact with or. perceive in the whilst you were stuck in. this region of the. of the experience base. So, it all falls. into place quite beautifully. And that's. what shocked me and was, you know, a. profound, almost religious experience. for me. >> What do you think our icon. is in that other world? How are we. perceived? >> Um. normally. >> I never looked in a mirror. >> That's the thing is that for most.

people, they would close their eyes and. the normal waking world is is. irrelevant. Uh. and that's it's clear that the brain is. kind of losing its ability very very. rapidly. If you take a low dose, you. will see dramatic changes um in. um the way that other people in the. world. uh appears to you. Uh but normally, once you get once you. deliver. that robust perturbation of the brain of. the conscious agent with DMT, um.

this world is is gone. There's no. representation. of it whatsoever. Even if you have your. eyes open, it's like you're interacting. with the conscious agent network. um in in conscious realism theory in in. a completely different way. Uh and so you're. it makes us what DMT is doing is is. allowing us we have this vast beautiful. landscape of possible experiences and. DMT is one way, not necessarily the only.

one, certainly not the only way of. changing not just the experience, not. just the structure and dynamics of your. subjective experience, of your. interface, but allowing you to interact. with. reality itself, the conscious agent. network in completely different ways. Um and so it's not just a model of DMT. or the DMT is the most efficient. delivering that kick uh to the conscious. agent, but people describe. uh very profound encounters with with. entities and strange alien beings, high.

dose psilocybin, or even ketamine. John. Lilly um used to. inject high doses of of ketamine in the. flotation tank and he would describe. interacting with strange. uh digital alien consciousnesses. Um so maybe it's all about. finding molecules that will deliver that. robust um kick to the conscious agent. that pushes it out of this very narrow. region and allows your world not just to.

change but also allows you to enter into. uh. uh two-way interactions with. other parts and other other beings, other conscious agents within the. conscious agent network. >> Do you think that that world is lateral. to ours or is that deeper to the source? >> Well, we're always at the source. And. this is what's kind of beautiful about. conscious agent theory is that there is. no level deeper than a conscious agent. Conscious agent is the ground of reality. itself. >> Right. >> Uh but normally we only interact we we.

we only see a kind of a we're only. influenced by a very thin slice of that. conscious agent network. We're kind of. held constrained by this qualia kernel. that's been sculpted by evolutionary. pressures. Uh and what psychedelics do, DMT particularly, is pushes us out of. that. So we're simply within we're still. a conscious agent but it's just where. our way of being in the world and our. way of interacting with the broader. conscious agent network has changed.

Uh but we're still at the level we're. still a conscious agent. >> That makes sense. So we could we're. living our world is a Mac and you go. into a different realm and you're just. booting up Windows or Linux. It's just a. different interface. >> It's a different interface. Right. It's. like changing the headset basically. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> When was the moment where you abandoned. materialism and decided that your brain. is an icon? >> Well, I abandoned materialism many years. ago. I mean people think that I'm a.

materialist. >> I thought I did. >> Yeah, because of the because I I write. at the level of the brain. I can get my. teeth into the brain. I I I. not met metaphorically, of course. [laughter]. But you know, I the mechanics of it and. all that stuff I can understand and get. my teeth into. If someone but really I've always been. an idealist for a very long time. I. mean, I felt that consciousness was. absolutely fundamental. This is the. oldest message, you. from all of the the mystical traditions. going back to, you know, ancient. Hinduism and stuff, saying that.

consciousness itself is fundamental. I've always felt that. But, there was nothing really to get my teeth. into until Don's work came along. Cuz. Don said, "Hey, if consciousness is. fundamental, that doesn't mean it's just. this kind of diaphanous mist or fog or. whatever.". You can actually do mathematics with it. You can just like you can with. material physics, you can you can you. can think about, "Okay, how do these. conscious agents interact? What is the. mathematics of that?" You can actually.

look at the mechanics and the dynamics. of conscious agents and do stuff with. it. Actual science. Um and so, that's why. before I started working with Don, I. kind of avoided the question of. consciousness simply because I had. nothing to get my teeth into. Uh and. it's there's always a danger that you'll. end up going off into the more spiritual. mystical stuff, which I've generally. avoided for the same reasons. Um. >> Yeah, I don't hear you talk about. consciousness. itself. And And. And you're familiar with Doug.

Hammeroff's work. >> Yeah. >> It seems like it it would marry. >> Stuart Hammeroff. Stuart. >> It seems like it would marry nicely. with the MTX. >> Yeah, Hammeroff is is a physicalist as. well. I mean, Giulio Tononi, I was quite. interested in integrated information. theory for a while. I even wrote a paper. on it connecting it to the psychedelic. state. >> Mhm. >> But again, these are all really. physicalist theories. They're trying to. they assume that the physical is. fundamental and that somehow. consciousness is generated, whether it's. when integrated information is non-zero,

whether it's these. effect quantum effects in microtubules. or whatever, but it's still a. physicalist theory. >> The microtubules is still just another. icon. >> You know, exactly. Uh and so, what I. love about Don is he said, "Forget about. all of that. Um let's start with the. only the one thing that we we can't. deny, which is our consciousness. Let's. start with that. Let's assume that's. fundamental and then try to boot up. the appearance of physical reality. And. he's. yeah, what he's achieved, I think, in. the last year or so is is remarkable uh.

in being able to explain so much about. what's going on. Uh and it and it all. makes perfect sense to me. And when you. connect it to DMT, uh it it just all. falls into place. As I said, the DMT. phenomenon it kind of falls out of the. mathematics, which is so beautiful and. too beautiful for it to be completely. right. It could be completely wrong, of. course. I'm not saying this is I've got. the answer, uh but it's certainly. something that I think needs to be uh. pursued.

>> So, you and Don just gave a talk. together a day or two ago? >> Yeah, so we wrote the paper, worked on. it for several months, me, [snorts] Don, and and Niffer. Uh and then I said, "Hey, I've been invited onto Have you. heard of the Wi-Files?" Um I've been. invited on this podcast. >> [laughter]. >> And I'm going to be there in June, middle of June. Um and so Gaspar said, "Ooh, will you do. an event?". So, that's why I did the event with Don. because. >> Oh, that's that's incredible. I didn't. know that. I didn't know that. >> Yeah, and so we uh arranged it on.

Saturday, so it's just a couple of days. before today. Um and we it's basically. the launch of the Trace Institute. together with um the collaboration. between the Trace Institute and New. Nautics um that I work for, that I'm a. director of, uh and we sat on stage for. an hour and a half and just having a you. know, a moderated conversation in LA in. um in the Venice Beach and just talking. about you know, kind of telling the.

world that DMT and conscious realism and. the. kind of fit together in this beautiful. way. Um and it was recorded, so it's not been. released yet, but people will hopefully. soon be able to actually watch uh this. conversation. And and in the paper as. well, we we did that. blue yellow experiment. We proposed that. as well. So, it wasn't just a. theoretical There's a lot of mathematics. within the paper. It is a theoretical. model, but also we At the end, we say, "Okay, how can we test these things?".

And now that we've got, as I said, the. Eleusis. um. um the Eleusis Retreat Research Center. in the Caribbean, we can actually. pretty quickly start raising money to. actually fund some projects on the. island in a you know, in a in a legal. setting without having to do the whole. university. >> Yeah. >> route, which we're try trying to avoid. connecting ourselves with universities. because. they obviously. they might not take kindly to the idea. of testing the intelligence of DMT and.

participate. >> It looks It looks like a a a luxury. vacation is really what it looks like. >> a beautiful resort, no doubt about it. Yeah. But it's also a research center as. well. >> Something I couldn't get my mind around. was DMT tolerance and DMT acts where at. some [snorts] point when the plasma. level. increases, the experience does not get. deeper. In fact, it fades somewhat. >> Okay, yes. So, this is very interesting.

Um so, as I said before, Rick Strassman showed. that DMT doesn't have subjective. tolerance, unlike other psychedelics. If. you take psilocybin mushrooms, trip, then if you try to take them the. following day, you'll have a very very. weak experience, right? And we know. we've known this for a long time. With. DMT, yes. Um but with DMT, you don't get that. tolerance effect, which is why DMT acts. works. Um. uh but. on the online forums for quite a few. years ago, it's been going on for a.

while, but it's a lot of people are. starting to talk about it now, is there. people would have this experience where. they. they take DMT often quite regularly. You know, maybe every every day or every. few days, right? They have a vape pen so they're. delivering, you know, the same DMT every. time. And then one day. they'll get um like a big. like a big X in the field of vision that. says no entry. Or they'll they'll be an. entity that will wag its finger and say.

no no no. Or they get some kind of. message like. you know, you you're not welcome here. We're not letting you in. And this is. called a lockout. You've been locked out. of the DMT space. >> Wow. >> Right? And so they they say, "Okay, that's pretty startling." Um. um. And and a guy wrote to me actually cuz I. kind of. probed this a little bit on the online. forums and asked for people to to give. me their experiences. And one guy said. that he was using DMT, his same batch as. he always does, vaporizing the same.

manner. And then one day some. um I forget it was like a mantis being. or some kind of being just as he entered. the space. punched him in the face and he felt the. punch. Um and he snapped back and he was. back baseline consciousness. The effect. was just gone like that. And you get many many those kinds of. experiences. And it's not. Pharmacologically, this is not easy to. explain. >> No. >> Right? Like tolerance is something that.

builds gradually and fades. Whereas this. is like an on off switch. They have, you. know, a string of perfectly visual. psychedelic DMT states and then one day. they're told, "You're not coming in." Um. and and sometimes that can last for. months or years. A friend of mine, David. Luke, um a professor at uh Greenwich. University, a psychologist, one of the. world's leading experts on DMT and very. experienced with DMT. He was locked out. for. uh someone told me it was like 20 years.

Are your serotonin receptors still. absorbing the molecule? Well, serotonin. receptors, the thing about serotonin. receptors, all receptors really, is that. they're those are turnover. So, the. receptor itself will sometimes just for. a few days will be in the membrane, and. then it will be removed from the. membrane, broken down, and recycled. So, there's there's always this. replenishment of serotonin receptors. Now, we know with like LSD, uh as it sits on the receptor, the. receptor becomes what's called.

desensitized. It stops working. That's. why you have to wait a few days or a. week or so uh until the receptors have. been recycled. You got new receptors. >> Sure. >> Right? >> Serotonin Serotonin syndrome is a real. thing. >> Right. That it is a real thing. Um but. >> But what blows my mind is it turning off. >> Turning off. Cuz. >> his receptors should still be active. with the molecule. It just have it. turned off. >> It turns off, yeah. And it's not It. doesn't come back a few days later, either. Sometimes it turns off, and then.

the next day you're back. It's like you caught an entity on a bad. day, that kind of thing. Sometimes. you're locked out for months or even. years. >> Yeah. And I can give an even more incredible. account that I got from a a woman during. DMTX. So, she was um doing DMTX in in. Colorado, in a kind of a kind of a. private group. Um and she was. undergoing DMTX. She was having this. interaction with this entity for, you. know, 20 minutes or so. Um DMT flowing.

in through her bloodstream and into her. brain, stable DMT state. And then the. entity said, "Okay, I think we're done for today.". The vision just stopped. DMT was still flowing, the infusion. machine was still on, DMT levels in her. brain still there, and it was just like, "We're done.". >> Can't explain that. >> Can't explain that, right? So, we want to study that. >> Yes. >> At Eleusis, what we plan to do, we're. actually. uh we're. to actually.

um. uh. try and get funding for this is to. actually bring people on the island who. are either locked out, who have been for. a long time, um. who have repeatedly been unable, who. could have visual experiences in the. past, but were locked out and are still. locked out. They and then bring them to. the island and infuse DMT into bring. them to Eleusis, bring infuse them with. DMT, you know, DMT acts, then. actually confirm or. >> That would be interesting. >> verify that, basically.

>> If they're still locked out, then then. yeah, you're really onto something. >> Yeah, then then you can actually use, you know, EEG, you can in theory you can. use fMRI, you can actually look what is. different to a control group. You also. have a control group who are normal DMT. users who can experience DMT. Um and then you look, what are the. differences between their neural. activity? How is that changing? Is there. what's going on here? Uh and then you. might look for um. changes in their their. differences in their genetics. There's.

also this thing called the five 5% club, which are people who. not who who are locked out from birth, shall we say. They can never experience. effects of DMT. 5% of people. >> Do they have That's very interesting. Is that a serotonin issue? >> We don't know. >> Mood disorder? >> My guess would be is that it's a what's. called a receptor polymorphism. So, every receptor is um receptor is a. protein and it's encoded by a gene. We. all have different variants of G all the.

different genes encoding our receptors. in our body. These are called. polymorphisms. Um and my my suggestion, prediction, perhaps hypothesis, uh is that certain people have a. slightly different variant of the 5-HT2A. receptor that means or some other. receptor, doesn't necessarily have to be. the 5-HT2A, That means that DMT isn't it either. isn't binding to the receptor or it's. it's not activating the receptor in the. same way. It could also be a metabolic issue. It.

could be that they are um. they're metabolizing DMT extremely. rapidly. But Rick Strassman found that. in about 5%, I think it was three people. out of 60, so exactly 5%. Even at the. highest dose level, 0.4 mg per kilogram, which was a. more than a breakthrough dose. >> Mhm. >> Um they experienced no effects. whatsoever of DMT. So we want to study. that as well. >> Yes, that's very interesting. >> work, you know, take samples and. actually. uh act- actually.

um look at the genome of these people. and say, "What are the differences?" You. know, that that's more that's easier to. explain than the lockout. The lockout. is very very difficult. >> I had never heard that before. >> Yeah. Um. >> What's happening to the serotonin in the. in the brain while they're under for so. long? Is it just getting metabolized? Are they. having mood issues. when they come back? >> Um no. I mean, people.

the the Imperial College study, the aim. of it was to kind of look at that, right? Is it is this safe and is it. tolerable? Um I'll be. >> you're on on SSRIs, I don't think you. should do this. >> No. Um what what's with the problem with. SSRIs generally is that people don't. experience. um as intense effects. So kind of blunts. the effect. You get changes in the the. expression of certain serotonin. receptors. But yeah, if you're on any. any kind of. um. uh psychiatric medication for whatever.

condition, then tread carefully. That's. a general kind of warning to anyone, not. just DMT, but all psychedelics. You need to be. very very careful because they are. contraindicated for certain people. These aren't toys. Um but yeah, I mean, DMT acts it's it's. shown to be safe and tolerable. Um people. broadly were able to handle the. experience and come out absolutely. absolutely fine, even though they were. in there for And now there's been. a Matthias Liechti, I think, in in Basel.

had his subjects under for I think 3. hours or something like that. >> Uh wow. >> fairly low level, not the breakthrough. level, but they also had like a a device. where they could adjust. the um. the infusion rate, so they could control. their experience. So, we're going to see more of those. kind of studies where we we we start to. learn how to use the DMTX technology. um to really. not just spend more time, but actually. be able to navigate the space and. increase and. adjust the the depth of the experience.

in real time. >> I thought at a low dose were they. responsive? >> Yeah, I mean, even at the high dose, weirdly, >> Even at the high dose? >> Yeah, I mean, but all uh auditory. response, not not visual, but during the. the Imperial study, one of the annoying. things is that for the subjects, Carl. talks about this a lot, is that they. were they were being asked. like questions, like, you know, what's. the intensity now between 1 and 10? It's. three. What's it now? Do you see.

entities? Yes or no? You know, what's. the entity level? All these questions, so you can never kind of just let go and. enjoy or, you know, work within the. space. You always have to be have one. ear. to the team waiting on the other side. >> I would be kind of annoyed, actually. >> Yeah, but that's the deal, because they. were they needed to get all of that data. as well. Yeah, but at Lucy's, of course, you you. you don't have to. you're free to kind of explore for as. long as you like. >> How how different is the ayahuasca. experience from DMTX?

>> This is a very good question, AJ, because. um one of the kind of the pushbacks that. we got, me and Rick, when we published. this is people would say, "Well, just. ayahuasca, that's an extended DMT state. And in a sense, they're right. Um, but in several other senses, they're. wrong. Um, so. with a regular DMT experience, blood brain DMT levels rise and then. drops down very rapidly. With ayahuasca,

uh, because of the monoamine oxidase. inhibitor, the harmine and harmaline. within the traditional preparation, uh, that's kind of extended. So, it rises. slowly and then it starts to kind of. tail off gradually over time. So, you. still have the peak, you still have the. drawdown, but it's it's stretched out. That kind of concentration curve is is. stretched out. Um, so it's not you don't you never. achieve a stable brain DMT concentration. with ayahuasca. You're still at the. mercy of your metabolism and.

pharmacokinetics. But also with ayahuasca, Dennis McKenna, I think it was, actually looked at blood. concentrations of DMT, uh, of people who took ayahuasca and people. who took like injected high-dose. breakthrough level DMT. And the the peak. blood brain or blood DMT concentration. in the ayahuasca is only around less. than 20% of what you achieve with. injected DMT. So, wow. extended, but.

actually generally it's a much milder, softer experience. Whereas, what we're. doing with DMTX is to push someone right. into the breakthrough state. Uh, if they. want to, you don't have to, you can have. lower levels as well, but in theory, you. can you can bring them up into the. breakthrough state and then hold them. there in the breakthrough state uh, for. as long as possible. So, you have much. you have real-time control over the DMT. state. You don't get that with. uh, or anything close to that with with. ayahuasca. >> That's interesting. Cuz in my own.

experience, sometimes you just can't get. there. You just I I just can't break. through. I just end up in the in the room of. geometric shapes and then and then I'm. back. >> Yeah. >> Usually cuz I'm stressed or distracted. or. a dog is barking or something. >> This is ayahuasca with. >> No, just just DMT. Just DMT. I don't. always break through. Um but I haven't tried it in a very long. time. Past the statute of limitations. >> [laughter]. >> Um you're alien insect online. >> I am.

>> Why? >> Um well, aliens, I like the I've I've been. interested in aliens and alien. intelligence. Not aliens as like. gray beings in metallic discs shimmering. in the in the night sky, that kind of. thing. Although it is interesting. Uh. but. >> That's that doesn't connect to this at. all. >> Oh, I think it does, yeah. I think it. does, but yeah, I've been interested in. the idea of alien intelligence and. insects, well, these are kind of. insectoid beings are kind of a common. entity within the DMT space. So, alien. insect, why not?

I came up with that name and now it's my. handle on X and Instagram. >> Did you ever see the mantids during a. during a trip? >> I've never seen a mantid, no. >> I didn't either. >> A lot of people A lot of people have. though. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I don't want to. Um how do So, how do. It's another problem with breaking. through is if you go in anxious, it's. also. not advisable, so. >> Yeah. I mean, it's um most most people.

have relatively pleasant, although. extremely bizarre experiences, but. they're often This The most common type. of entity people encounter is actually. more of a guiding presence, often like. described as like a motherly. caring presence that guides you. through the space all the different, you. know, in in my experiences from way. back, there's a very strong sense of. being taken. As if like we've got so. little time. We're going to show you. this and this and this and you can't. bring any of it back cuz it's so short.

Uh but this very real sense of of being. guided very very rapidly through all. these different rooms. I want to say. rooms. All completely different and all. equally strange and baffling and. bewildering. And then you're deposited. back in the real Let's say the real. world. You're deposited back in the. normal waking world. >> And you don't really remember those. rooms, do you? >> No. >> Cuz I I don't. Yeah, I I remember getting there and. coming back. >> Yeah. >> That's about it. It's It's a wild. experience. So, how do we.

do we connect the UFO phenomenon to. this? I'm starting to think about Jacques. Vallée now and his [clears throat]. theory about UFOs as consciousness and. why. different. cultures receive We perceive the. fairies, then we perceive this, and now. we're on to orbs, depending on where we. are culturally. >> Yeah, I mean. Vallée, John Mack. If you remember John Mack, you're from Harvard. He wrote Abduction.

>> Mhm. >> You know, that he was this hard-nosed. psychiatrist um. until he started. uh interacting with and and working with. these so-called abductees or. experiences. >> Yeah, Harvard didn't like that. >> Uh Harvard didn't like that at all. Um. >> [laughter]. >> well, understandably, to be honest. But. um. I think. his his perspective shifted throughout. I mean, it did clearly shifted from the. idea that we're talking about that the.

the UAP phenomenon or the non-human. intelligence phenomenon is about. biological beings that are arriving from. other areas of. of the universe. I think that's. pretty short-sighted and. uh. feels kind of outdated now. Um and and he started to think that. actually we're talking The abduction. experience was more of a altered state. of consciousness, as if they were being. These experiences were being induced. into some altered states of. consciousness and interacting with um.

normally imperceptible. beings. Um and of course this fits. perfectly with that's DMT. I mean if you. read there was in in Abduction, um John. Mack's first book, there is an account. of this woman who was an abductee who. has described these small lively beings. kind of bounding around. I mean this was. this is a Terence McKenna machine elf. that he thought. Um it's exactly the same. Um Rick. Strassman also noted that if.

they had taken some of his trip reports. out of context and put it in a. in one of John Mack's books, nobody. would have questioned it because they. were like they seemed like you know you. have the this sophisticated laboratory. type environment and you've got these. being of these small beings like workers. or orderlies and then you have these. more. uh powerful supervising beings. >> I heard that story all the time. >> Yeah. That's an abduction experience and. it's also features prominently um in in.

DMT reports. >> So so an abduction, could that be in. like an endogenous DMT experience? >> be an endogenous DMT experience. It. could be at these. I think we need to get away from the. idea that an alien is a is. manif- is something that exists within. this real- this this very limited. perspective that we're dealing with you. know wet bodied wet brain biological. beings and that that we're dealing with. some kind of some other kind of. intelligence.

um that isn't necessarily. quote unquote physical uh but operates. in some other domain in just the same. way that now we think about or some. people like me think about the DMT. entities isn't is not spirits or gods. but some kind of intelligent agent that. that normally is always there uh but we. normally. uh. completely imperceptible and can't. interact with. Uh, and I think that. makes more sense because there's there's. nothing that says.

um, that these aliens must be physical. beings. Um, and one can imagine that. you know, I often talk about the uh, the. the anti-Kardashev scale. Um, you know. the Kardashev scale? >> Sure. >> The idea it's it's kind of a an. expansive idea, the idea that we first. we occupy the single planet, then we. start uh, harvesting the energy from the. nearest star, and then it's kind of. it's the idea that as an intelligent. species progresses technologically and. cognitively, they start to occupy larger.

and larger areas of the cosmos, right? That's the way we think about it. >> We're like a high-level zero. >> We're high-level zero, but um, John. Barrow, the cosmologist, noted quite. correctly that actually most of our tech. we do, of course, we send probes and. rockets up into you know, elsewhere in. the solar system, etc. But actually most. of our technological advances have been. not. outwards, but inwards to smaller and. smaller scales, right?

>> That's true, yeah. >> You know, down to from the molecular to, you know, biochemistry and all the way. through to. uh, the the atomic and then the subatomic. Now people are talking about strings, people get deeper and deeper down uh, into the ground of reality. That's where. all of our. um, kind of technological efforts has. been downwards. >> That's right. >> He developed what he called um, the. micro-dimensional mastery scale, which. is like the anti-Kardashev scale, the. Barrow scale, John Barrow. Um, and um, the the the kind of the he had the minus.

one, minus two, minus three, minus four, rather than plus one, right? And he. posited something which is he referred. to as the omega minus level. This is. when a. technological species. is able to actually control and. manipulate the very ground of reality. itself. Whatever that is. So, we're past the. quantum. We're past even perhaps the. Planck scale. >> Past the Planck scale. >> Right down. Whatever's beyond. Right? Quantum mechanics, of course, stops.

working at the Planck scale. You know, John Don Hoffman would say we're talking. about consciousness here. >> Right. >> Um physicalists would say something. else. Doesn't really matter. But. basically, when our species is able to. work at the fundamental level of. reality, that's the kind of a. fundamental computational substrate of. reality itself, that's where they're. going to go. They're going to find a way. of instantiating themselves at the. ground of reality. They're not going to. be trying to. um to kind of. approach light speed and expand through.

the cosmos. They're going to try to go. downwards. And there's a lot more room. downwards. >> Right. You don't need need light speed. if you if you get down there. >> You don't need light speed if you get. down there, right? And there's much more. room. There's like. I forget what the exact number is, but. but if you look at the distance in terms. of relative size from human size to the. size of the universe or from human size. to the Planck scale, I think it's like. millions and millions times bigger down. there. Or times smaller than it is.

bigger going up there. >> to the minus 35, >> Something. Yeah. That's the Planck. scale, right? So, in other words, there's there's there's a lot more room. at the bottom than there is up there. Um. much more room. Uh which means that. that's the direction we go. That's where. that's where we look for intelligence. And how do you do that? How would an. intelligent species that had. instantiated itself at the ground of. reality, perhaps billions of years. before. the our solar system even came to be, how would you communicate with that kind.

of intelligence? Or how would they. communicate with us? They'd do it. through our brains because that's how we. experience the world. They wouldn't. appear necessarily or manifest. They. would simply use our brains to. communicate with us. And that would take. the form of as Jack Vallee said, um that would take the form of what we. normally describe as hallucinatory. experience. >> Sure. >> You know, altered states of. consciousness. That's how you do it. So, DMT it's it's like DMT is is in some way. facilitating that experience that allows. us to interact with these beings that or.

conscious agents or whatever you want to. call them that have been around perhaps. forever. Um but certainly a lot longer than we've. been around. >> It starts to um. you can't avoid the question now. It's very interesting. I love when my. mind is blown on this show, which has. been I hadn't considered looking down. cuz cuz if you get past the Planck. scale, then you don't need light speed. travel cuz you're essentially.

in the dimension where. entanglement works, so you can go. anywhere. >> Well, well, yeah, well, well, physics. that we don't conception of works. basically. At the moment, we don't have. anything deeper than the quantum. Everything stops working there. So, what. lies beyond that? What is the. fundamental substrate of reality? And. once you understand that, then you can. manipulate. and then even instantiate yourselves as. intelligent beings at that level, and. then we have no conception of how that.

might work. >> Is that God? >> Um it would well, I wouldn't say it's. God, but I would say that we could be. dealing with beings that are. indistinguishable from gods. In that they are they are so advanced. that we simply cannot conceive of how. advanced they are. Um that would be my suggestion. So, we. have no conception of what they would be. like or um whether they even whether. they whether they could even take on a. visual form in any kind of way. We just.

have nothing. We have no reference. Uh you know, when we had when we had. little beings, we had references. You. know, they they've got heads, they've. got big eyes, and that kind of made. sense. We can we can slot it into our. our picture of reality, but we're. talking about intelligences that we. simply have no conception of what they. might be like. Uh that's a wild idea. And the idea that we could actually. maybe interface with them by taking this. plant alkaloid called DMT is an even. wilder idea. >> Yeah, it is.

But it feels like it's by design to me. It's too it's too convenient. >> It does feel like that. >> Yeah. Yeah, I would never say that. that's the case, but there is something. uncanny about DMT, but it's ubiquity. throughout the natural world, and yet. this incredibly crisply efficient tool. by which we can. access these these other realms and. these beings. >> It feels like they want us to find them. But I've never heard of lockout before. That's very interesting. You've seen enough.

What do you think happens to us when we. die? >> Well, that came from left field. I. wasn't expecting that question. Um. The short answer is I don't know, but I. certainly don't think. I'm I'm past the idea that there was. this infinite period of time before I. was born when. I simply didn't exist, and then there's. this brief. the lights are on for this briefest of.

flickers of light for briefest amount of. time, and it's off again. >> Yeah. >> Um. and I think it was Alan Watts who said. think about the state after you die, you. don't exist. Then think about the state before you. were born, you don't exist. So, those. are indistinguishable, right? The state. before you were born is identical to the. state after you die. So, what happened. then? Well, we know what happened then. Um so, I don't think I think I think. we're part of something.

that is. um. we're. we're we we occupy this very very thin. slice of something far grander. and and far more mysterious and and. far more profound and strange than we. can we can conceive and I just get the. sense that this is like I often describe. reality certain human reality. as some kind of feels like a game of. some sort. It's just play, right? And. and the the Hindus will tell you that. They will say, "Oh, Brahman is lila.

This is the the play, the play at making. the world. It's all one cosmic drama.". Uh and we take it very very seriously. and the part of the game is working out. that it's a game, that it shouldn't be. taken too seriously. This is just just a. ride, right? As Bill Hicks used to say. Right. And I get that sense that we I. don't take reality I don't take. life. seriously. Um in that I don't think it's a. really somber, serious, important thing.

I think it's just a a beautiful. experience that we have uh for this. briefest periods of time, that we should. enjoy it like we would. enjoy any other ride at the. the fairground or something like that. Uh what hap- happens after? I don't. know, but it's something we're we all. have to look forward to. >> Do you subscribe to the. the idea that there's a sort of a. universal consciousness and when we're. born. we're we're kind of spawned out of that, we come here, we have experiences, we. bring it back to the source. >> Well, that's what conscious realism says.

as well um is that there is one this. is described as a conscious agent. network, but ultimately there is it. there's nothing but consciousness. So, sure, absolutely. Ultimately, there is. one unified consciousness. And that's. again, that's the oldest message. You. know, Brahman, what is Brahman? That's. the. the ultimate reality and everything else. is illusion. You know, and it's all It's the same. illusion. Timothy Leary used to say, it's all the same illusion.

Uh and so this reality is an illusion. and in a sense the DMT space is also an. illusion. It doesn't mean it's not real. You're still interacting with. consciousness, but it's all everything. has all experiences have the same. ontological validity. They're all as. real as each other in some way. They're. just different ways of experiencing. Um. and so eventually you kind of get past. these questions of always that is DMT. real or is it not real? And and that. question no longer almost doesn't make.

any sense anymore. I didn't ask it. I. don't I know you didn't. I wasn't. blaming you AJ here, but people always. ask me that. Do you believe it's real? Um. and before I would give long arguments. I'm I'm maturing now where I actually. think actually. I'm kind of past that now. Um there's a part of me that thinks it's. all part of this grand cosmic drama. Uh. and there are different ways to play it. and different tools we can use to. explore. We have this vast uh.

vast you know. the the the the kind of the the. playground. of reality that we can explore. Uh and DMT and other psychedelics and. other tools are ways that we can we can. get out of this very small region of. this vast playground and enjoy it and. experience it and think wow the. fucking incredible majesty of reality. that we're part of it. We're. inextricably part of it. You know, we. are a conscious agent all built from. conscious agents as is everything else.

and every everything else is. experiencing the world in its own way. Um that's an incredible thing to realize. and then these little questions about. you know, is it real or not real? They. don't mean anything anymore. >> They don't. No. That's why I love interface theory. Um. anything else you want to discuss before. we go? This has been wonderful. >> I just like to say, well, I certainly. would like. you know, if anyone wants to. learn more about my work, certainly read. my book Death by Astonishment. It's an.

amazing book. If you want to read, understand the history of DMT all the. way back to. thousands of years really in indigenous. plant preparations all the way through. to 20th century and beyond and what I. think about DMT, the neuroscience of. DMT, why I think it's not just. hallucination and what it could be and. all of that stuff. That's everything I. learned about DMT in the last 30 years. is in Death by Astonishment, so please. get that. Uh please follow me on X, Twitter, uh alien insect as you said or. Instagram also alien insect. Go to new.

nautics.org. Uh if you want to learn about the. research uh programs that we're. developing at new nautics. Uh and if. anyone wants to experience DMTX. themselves in a uh. perfectly 100% legal, safe, uh medically. supervised environment, go to. eleusismind e l e u s i s mind.com. uh and they can sign up to spend a few. days on this beautiful uh tropical uh. Caribbean island. Um and I think that. covers it, AJ.

>> All right. Doctor Andrew Gallimore, this. has been a treat and a joy. Thank you so. much. >> Thank you very much. >> Bye, everybody. That was Doctor Andrew. Gallimore. We covered [music] the. history of DMT, what it does to your. brain, and his theory that the beings. people meet are real. Now, there's not much to challenge here. DMT is a real compound. [music] It's. found in most living things. It was. first synthesized in the '30s and found. to be psychoactive in the '50s. But, why. does it exist? Well, in 2019, a University of Michigan. lab induced [music] cardiac arrest in.

rats and measured a surge of DMT in the. dying brain. So, one theory is that when. brain cells are running out of oxygen, DMT can protect those cells. Maybe. that's why we produce it. >> [music]. >> Maybe not. Nobody really knows. The real. question is whether the experience is. more than a hallucination. [music] Still. no proof, but Andrew's looking. Then. there's Andrew's work with Donald. Hoffman. Hoffman argues we never see. reality, >> [music]. >> only an interface like icons on a. screen. And I'm a fan of Donald.

Hoffman's work. Look him up on YouTube. [music]. Especially cuz he can explain, if not. prove, his theory of consciousness with. math. And I love that the two of them. are working together. Now, Andrew thinks. the brain is [music] acting like a. radio. DMT switches the channel and. suddenly we're tuned into a dimension. populated by actual sentient beings. Here's an argument [music] for that. A. woman did one of these extended sessions. in Colorado. She was 20 minutes in and. the DMT was still pumping into her veins. [music]. and she was deep in conversation with.

one of these beings, then the being. said, "I think we're done for today.". And the vision just stopped. >> [music]. >> The machine was still running. The drug. was still in her system. So, pharmacologically, that should be. impossible, but it happened. Andrew is a real scientist. Cambridge, [music] Oxford, real credentials. He's. asking the question most scientists. won't touch. Are these beings real? And. [music] he's creating experiments to. test it. The blue-yellow screen, the. lockout studies, all of it. Nobody else.

is doing [music] this. Now, I wouldn't. sure that the beings were just in your. mind. And I came out less sure. >> [music]. >> His book, Death by Astonishment, is. fantastic. It's on Amazon. His nonprofit. is newonatics.org. I'll link that down. below. Try to spell it properly. The. legal DMT retreat is Eleusis at eleusis. mind.com. And the Eleusis retreat is. basically a luxury vacation in the. Bahamas. But I have to be honest, it's not cheap. It's hard to find pricing and I wasn't. going to ask him. But rumors say it.

[music] could be anywhere from $9,500 or. more. So, I'm just letting you know. But. if you're going to explore. consciousness, [music]. the best way to do that is legally with. a doctor present. Don't mess with any of. this stuff on your own. It's not fun. I promise. Until next time, be safe. Really, be safe. Be safe, be [music] kind, and know that you are appreciated. Don't mess with it. >> [music].

>> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> [music]. >> I played Polybius in Area 51. [music] A. secret code inside the Bible said. [singing] I would. >> [music]. >> I love my UFOs and paranormal fun, as. well as music. [music] So I sang it the. like I should.

But then another conspiracy theory. becomes the truth, [music] my friends. [singing]. And it never ends. No, it never ends. >> [music]. [music]. >> I feel the crab got out and got stuck. inside Mel's hole with MK Ultra. I've. been only too aware. [music]. Did Stanley Kubrick fake the moon.

landing alone on a film set, or were the. shadow people [music]. there? >> [singing]. >> The Roswell aliens just bought the. smiling man, I'm told. And his name was [music] Cold. >> [singing]. >> I can't believe. I'm dancing with the bitches. Headphones on Thursday [music]. night with the JT and the. all through the night. >> [music].

>> All I ever wanted was to hear the truth. So the wobbles on repeat all the night. >> [music]. [music]. >> The math man said in Xan the solar storm. still come [music and singing]. to a god the the secret city.

underground. >> [music]. >> Mysterious number stations, planets are. portals to project stargate and what the. dark watchers found. >> [music]. >> We're in a simulation, don't you worry. though. >> [music]. >> The black man said a lie it chose. I. can't believe. >> [music]. >> I'm dancing with the pills. Pentavision Thursday nights with they. changing and the wild ones on the beat.

up through the night. All I ever wanted was to give you the. truth. So the wild. >> [music]. >> ones on the beat. up through the night. Pentavision Thursday [music] nights with. they changing and the wild ones on the. beat. up through the night. All I ever wanted was to give. >> [music]. >> you the truth. So the wild. ones on the beat.

up through the. night. >> [music]. >> Good enough. to dance. Yeah, good enough. >> [music]. >> to dance on the dance floor. Because she is a camel. and camels love to dance. when the feeling is right. I'm wasting.

time. Good enough. to dance. >> [music]. >> Good enough to love again. >> [music]. [bell].