World Cup: The Agony of Politics & the Joy of Sports | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

ROGER BENNETT: And all that matters, ultimately, I. think, about all of this in this very dark world of ours, like, people are having release, sense of connection, sense of memory-making, sense of hilarity. And, yeah, I mean, Tariq will know this. better than I do-- what is the odds, the percentage. chance of America winning? It's like 2.94%. TARIQ PANJA: That's exactly the percentage I know, Rog. ROGER BENNETT: Letting yourself believe it's 100%. is the whole point. JON STEWART: By the way, it's the same percentage. Iran had with us in the war.

And they won. So, like, maybe we're going in the wrong direction here. Maybe we can pull this off. [MUSIC PLAYING]. Hey, everybody, welcome to The Weekly Show podcast. My name is Jon Stewart. It is June 23. It's a Tuesday. This'll probably coming out tomorrow. And you know what I'm doing today? I'm not talking about anything serious. I'm done. I'm done with these Iranian negotiations. and reflecting pool shenanigans.

I want to talk what I've been feeling. lately, what I've been feeling the excitement of lately. What's been running through my blood. lately is this World Cup, this United States team that. is making, so far, a really nice run, fine attacking. football, fun attacking football, showing themselves. to be really a quality side. And that's what we're going to do. We're talking World Cup. And I'm not talking FIFA Peace Prize World Cup. I'm talking World Cup World Cup--.

the teams, the stories, why it's so important to us, why we love it. And we couldn't have two better guests to do this. We've got Roger Bennett, founder of the Men in Blazers. Media Network, and Tariq Panja, Global Sports Correspondent. at the New York Times. And they're going to carry us through this World Cup frenzy. [MUSIC PLAYING]. Ladies and gentlemen, I am struck by World Cup fever, as many of you are at home as well. And we couldn't have better guests today.

We couldn't. I could tell you we could, but we couldn't. ROGER BENNETT: You could, Jon. JON STEWART: Because we couldn't get better guests. We could not get better guests is what I'm saying. ROGER BENNETT: Zlatan and Alexi were available. JON STEWART: Roger Bennett, founder of the fantastic Men. in Blazers Media Network, and Tariq Panja, Global Sports Correspondent, New York Times. Gentlemen, what the heck? First of all, Roger, it is such a delight. to have you on the program and to see you by your iconic map.

ROGER BENNETT: My weather map. JON STEWART: And, Tariq, to have you. in your iconic fleabag motel. TARIQ PANJA: That's about right. JON STEWART: Wherever they're putting you up. I don't know what the New York Times. budget is for sports reporting, but I don't know, man. It's good to see you both. TARIQ PANJA: I need your help. JON STEWART: Yes. TARIQ PANJA: You tell them. You tell them, Jon. ROGER BENNETT: Jon, it's good to be with you. It's not often both of us are with a footballing icon--. 10 goals, 12 assists for the William & Mary Tribe. JON STEWART: Oh, you got the stats.

ROGER BENNETT: I mean, everyone's talking about it. When they think about you, they think about you as, like, the man you are, the conscience of America, but I think more people know you as just that hard hitting. midfielder and the coach, Al Albert, an iconic legend, the man who really made football. go in this country. [LAUGHTER] No? TARIQ PANJA: That is special. JON STEWART: Now, Roger, I do want to explain. And, obviously--. ROGER BENNETT: You've got beautiful legs, because I've seen the photos. You've got an incredible pair of, like--.

when you look at those legs, what do you think? JON STEWART: I called them getaway. sticks back in those days. Roger's quoting my college stats--. 10 goals, 12 assists. The only thing that I do want to say, in soccer's defense, that was over 20 years. ROGER BENNETT: That's as long as the World Cup is now. JON STEWART: It took me a while to accumulate those stats is. what I'm saying. ROGER BENNETT: I know. But you're going to know back in the day, when we all started. doing this, talking about football in America, and we'd think about guests--. like, it was you.

It was, like, John Oliver. JON STEWART: It was me and Kyle Rote, Jr. And that was it. Me and Ricky Davis and Moochie Myernick. And that was about--. ROGER BENNETT: And Primo Levi. And, yeah, we could never get Rote. But you were-- you were, like, an early early, early lover of. the game in all seriousness. JON STEWART: I loved it. I was raised in a town where it was. very much Italian immigrants, Polish immigrants. They brought soccer to Central Jersey, imported it.

That was the thing. There's a famous bridge where I grew. up in Trenton called what Trenton makes, the world takes. Tariq, didn't you do your research on this? TARIQ PANJA: Guys, I've kind of--. JON STEWART: Roger is running circles around us right now. TARIQ PANJA: I'm just thinking Roger's making. up American sounding names. JON STEWART: No. He is-- can I tell you something? He is nailing-- he has clearly gone on some kind of William. & Mary soccer Wikipedia page. ROGER BENNETT: What are you talking about? This is like when you meet Pelé, when you meet Maradona,

you don't have to research them. You know because you've lived it. And watching you under Al Albert--. I want to know when you do look at those photos, because the shorts were short. The thighs were popping. They were. I look at them, and I'm like, oh, my god--. JON STEWART: Roger, it was a different style back then. ROGER BENNETT: I know, but I don't know if you can pop it up. on this podcast because it might not be safe for work, but I look at them and I think, god, that is beautiful.

That is incredibly American. JON STEWART: They were solid. ROGER BENNETT: I also think, man, death comes for us all. Like, we're all going to die. JON STEWART: Oh, my brother. Let me tell you something, when I look at those pictures. and I look at myself now, I think, why do. I sleep in a meat dehydrator? That's such a mistake. That was such a mistake on my part. Tariq, it is true. He's not doing research. He probably remembers our famous match against Longwood. ROGER BENNETT: Don't get me started. JON STEWART: 1982. ROGER BENNETT: Under coach Al Albert. JON STEWART: And Coach Al Albert.

TARIQ PANJA: You guys are kidding me. JON STEWART: He knows the three names. Tariq--. ROGER BENNETT: You were, like, bleeding from your mouth. You were like, coach, put me back in. JON STEWART: When you think back. to those matches, do you believe American football--. soccer--. has come a long way? Tariq, as you watch the American team play, do you see advances in our style of play? I find it fascinating--. I remember the days when our best player. was always the keeper, whether it Brad. Friedl, whether it Tony Meola. And now, we're playing an attacking form of soccer.

Tariq, is it hard to see this from the Americans? Do you fear us now? Are you fearful of our squad, of Balogun? ROGER BENNETT: The Germans will fear us. TARIQ PANJA: In a word, no, but it is exciting. [LAUGHTER]. It is exciting to see. It is great. JON STEWART: How about in two words? TARIQ PANJA: No and not really. [LAUGHTER]. Look, I think World Cups are great when. the hosts are doing well. And you've got here, you've got the US, Mexico, and Canada,

and they've all shown up. And I've got an apology to make because on our podcast, on The Daily before the tournament, I said, this is not a good football team. And there is a huge amount of egg on this face. right now, because they really showed up at the time. it counted as well. JON STEWART: Well, we were playing. possum in all the qualifying. We weren't showing ourselves to be who we truly are. TARIQ PANJA: Well. And Poch is into it.

Rog, the coach, who seemed who seemed to be trying to get. another job all the time while he was US manager-- he was. trying to get a European team, I felt, like, what do we call it-- a come and get me plea? JON STEWART: That's right. TARIQ PANJA: And now, I think after that second game. against Australia, he showed a level of emotion. that I'd not seen with him and this US team. He was really, really into it. JON STEWART: He's talking about the coach. For those of us-- our podcast is.

generally dealing with nuclear negotiations through Iran. So I just want to explain. He's referring to the famed coach. of the American squad in Argentine legend Pochettino. ROGER BENNETT: Who, on local news across America--. his name is Mauricio Pochettino. They call him Coach Poch. JON STEWART: Coach Poch. ROGER BENNETT: Coach Poch is going through many emotions. he didn't want to leave. Looked like recently, he wanted to join. the Irving Police Department when he saw. they have Tesla Cybertrucks.

Oh, you can drive one of these? He asked to go inside. But he's having an extreme makeover himself. He's started dressing like 1980s game poacher cool. He's growing his hair out like Russell Crowe. And he's having the time of his life. We're all having the time of our life, which I think. is what football is about. Look, this US team has not been very good. Our women's team kicks ass, takes names, is a dream team. Our men's team has been, and new.

listeners who are like, why is that English guy saying "we?". I love America like Kenny Powers loves America. JON STEWART: Yes. And we embrace you, by the way. ROGER BENNETT: Not sure. I'm not sure that's really true, Jon Stewart. But I won't have you say nice things about me on this show. The men's team have been like a dream-on team. And we've always wanted them to be great. They've won one knockout game in our entire history going. back to George Washington. And if you've not followed, suddenly in this World Cup, they're playing ebullient, swaggering,

buccaneering football, albeit about not. the greatest opponents so far. But it's like watching Matthew McConaughey. I was trying to work out what is it like, this shock, this surprise, this wonder. It's like watching McConaughey just rom-com it, phone it in. Maybe he'll do Texas Chainsaw Massacre. JON STEWART: Right. ROGER BENNETT: And then suddenly, be like, sod that. You know what? There's an inner greatness. JON STEWART: Dallas Buyers Club. That's what you're talking about. Yeah. ROGER BENNETT: This is our Dallas. Buyers Club, Jon Stewart.

JON STEWART: Can I tell you something? I looked at that when I saw the Americans play, I thought. to myself, the same thing. This is a team--. ROGER BENNETT: This is our Dallas Buyers Club. JON STEWART: --losing weight to portray an AIDS patient. TARIQ PANJA: And are they doing it supremely well? JON STEWART: We are the kings of own goals right now. I mean, the one thing I will say this-- look, American football is always, and I'm hearing. people all over say, oh, my god, they took Paraguay and Australia.

Can we win this whole thing? And I would like to say right now, for the record, no, we cannot. ROGER BENNETT: But why would you say that, Jon? That's rational. And sports or fandom is purely ridiculous and emotional. I will tell you, I was in Seattle where that game was. We did a live show before the thing with Marshawn Lynch. JON STEWART: I love Marshawn Lynch. ROGER BENNETT: And there were 5,000 people there. They were out of their mind. They'd come from all over America. They brought their kids.

They were making memories. We then marched to the match. It was like, if you've watched a movie called Ferris Bueller, you'll remember, like, the German Day Parade. It felt like just a crazy, ebullient cacophony. It felt like Mardi Gras, but, like, football themed. And all that matters, ultimately, I. think, about all of in this very dark world of ours, like, people having release, sense of connection, sense of memory-making, sense of hilarity. And, yeah, I think--. I mean, Tariq will know this better than I do. What is the odds, the percentage chance.

of America winning? It's like 2.94%. TARIQ PANJA: That's exactly the percentage I know, Rog. ROGER BENNETT: Letting yourself believe it's 100%. is the whole point. JON STEWART: By the way, it's the same percentage. Iran had with us in the war, and they won. So, like, maybe we're going in the wrong direction here. Maybe we can pull this off. TARIQ PANJA: Hope springs eternal. But the thing about--. JON STEWART: Thank you, Tariq. TARIQ PANJA: --these tournaments, it's the journey. It's fantastic. This is my favorite part, to be honest, of the World Cup, right at the start when everyone arrives,

particularly these fans from god knows. where-- all over the place. JON STEWART: And it's an expanded field. Let's also be fair. It is now 48 teams, so it is a messier tournament. than we've ever seen. And you're finding those teams that. have a Cape Verde or something like that. where hope springs eternal. But it is a larger field than we're accustomed to watching. TARIQ PANJA: Yeah. To give you a sense of the scale of this--. there were 64 matches for the entire tournament in Qatar.

four years ago, or 3 and 1/2 years ago, because it was in winter. You'll need 72 matches just to get through. this first group stage-- so more than Qatar just. to get into the knockout. So we're kind of drowning in these World Cup matches. ROGER BENNETT: It's an ultra marathon, and we're all getting runners nipple. JON STEWART: Yeah. Roger, do you enjoy the expanded format? Do you enjoy the messiness of it? And let's be fair also--. ROGER BENNETT: Are you asking me how much chafing is, Jon? JON STEWART: How's your chafing? It's 48 teams. There's only, I believe, 60 teams in the entire world.

So we're getting close to just everybody. being in the World Cup. ROGER BENNETT: Yeah. William & Mary--. JON STEWART: William and Mary is 61. ROGER BENNETT: I promise you, the crazy part of this. is that everyone coming in was like, Cape Verde, this tiny team, Curacao, this tiny team of 125-- they're going. to get absolutely obliterated. It's going to be an embarrassment. They've been bloody good. But you could say part of the story of this World Cup, Cape. Verde, this tiny archipelago of islands. off the West Coast of Africa, 600 miles west of Senegal.

And they're all this now--. I didn't know it six days ago until they took the field. against Spain, the World Cup favorites, and held them at arm's length with a goalkeeper who was. stunning-- a 40-year-old journeyman nobody, Vozinha, held them at bay, made save after save, cried at the end because his mother. was not able to enter because she couldn't get a visa. He came on our show that afternoon.

and told his story beautifully, powerfully, nobly, humbly. He at the beginning of the day had 29,000--. this is like a double-A baseball player, America, if you're listening. The beginning of the day, had, like, 29,000 Instagram followers. By the end of the day, he had 10 million. He now has 15.7 million. He has more followers on Instagram. now than Wemby and Mahomes combined. He has more followers than the Pope.

This is what the World Cup can do. JON STEWART: Yes. People have always entered the World. Cup to become influencers. ROGER BENNETT: Yeah. And probably, Jon Stewart, your mind is already. like, what does he do next? JON STEWART: It's already now, I'm thinking to myself, I've got to go back and play again. [MUSIC PLAYING]. Folks, we've all got great ideas rattling around. our heads about businesses. I've got an idea about a business where you make really. good socks, and you put them on your feet, and they're really well made and really comfortable. And then for every one of them, you're. like, give something away.

That's my idea. I don't think anybody's doing it, but that's what I want to do. But if you got a business idea and you. want to make some dollars, there. is a company that can help you make that pipe dream a reality. And that's Shopify. All the dumb ideas that I have rattling around in my head, I can use Shopify to make a reality. And they make it easy. The design studio, hundreds of templates. to build your online store-- what are you going to do, hire people, experts? No.

You go on Shopify. They help you find your customers, easy to run email and social media campaigns. I'm telling you, man, Shopify, it's. time to turn those what-ifs into [CASH REGISTER DINGS]. with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com/TMS. Go to Shopify.com/TMS. [CASH REGISTER DINGS]. Tariq, what's been your favorite underdog.

story of this? Has it been Cape Verde? Has it been Curacao? What's been your favorite underdog story. of this World Cup so far? TARIQ PANJA: I think it's hard to look beyond the story. Roger told about Vozinha. But Curacao as well getting a point off Ecuador. JON STEWART: Stunning. TARIQ PANJA: And, like, you know, you say these names--. Ecuador, Curacao-- Ecuador is a big footballing nation. They were very good in qualifying in South America. And, again, one of my predictions, which haven't come.

true just yet-- there's still time-- that Ecuador will. go deep in this tournament. They are stacked with great players who. play at top European teams. And you have this team from Curacao. But the other story for me, I think, is the story of us, of people. And these teams are populated by the diaspora as well. As a member of a diaspora myself--. my family's from India, I'm English--.

your kids are seeing representations of themselves. in all of these countries. And my love for the World Cup, and all of us, probably--. Rog, your first one, mine when I was a boy--. the World Cup every four years, the scarcity of this thing, these are moments of your life-- you can date yourself, you can place yourself in all of these moments. Now, there's going to be children. somewhere who are learning about Curacao,

who are learning--. Roger, a man child, is learning about Cape Verde. And I got a call from a friend of mine. in Mexico, an Argentine friend, his son. is all over the Democratic Republic of Congo. That is the project he's decided to do at school. JON STEWART: That's amazing. TARIQ PANJA: And he said, please call him, and he'll tell you all about them. And I don't think there's anything like it. I genuinely don't think--.

there's nothing like the football World Cup. Not the Olympics, not anything that we've. been able to do up until now that. can match the pitch of this. And I'm just seeing these pictures-- like, obviously, the Scots in Boston. JON STEWART: Drinking us dry. Yeah. TARIQ PANJA: The Koreans in Mexico City. Like, all of it--. JON STEWART: The Japanese cleaning up the stadiums. Everybody's learning. It's beautiful for Americans, and it's hard for Americans. to understand the importance of the World Cup around the world. because it's not our national sport,

although it's rising, certainly, in popularity. But, generally, for Americans, we learn geography. by whoever we're bombing. Now we know where Kabul is and Tehran. War is God's way of teaching Americans geography. But the world embraces a different form. of community in World Cup. It's about that competition, but also interaction.

And, Roger, isn't that what makes this the most magical. of times? Because the countries travel with them. ROGER BENNETT: I mean, I think it's been very profound. in our context, I mean, to see the world. love America in the most joyous way and the most profound way. What Tariq said is true-- that it's once every four years. My life-- I wrote a book about it, We Are the World Cup-- about I can tell my life alternately.

by World Cup to World Cup. It is the spine of my life, the most profound memory-making. That's for me and millions and millions of human beings. around the world. What we're experiencing in the here and now. is when we feel most alive, because the world's. coming together. Human beings, under conditions of great pressure, are defining themselves, revealing themselves as epic. Greek heroes with a script acted out live. But this World Cup does have that added dimension.

that I think is incredibly profound, which is, well, two things-- for me, the story of my life, Jon, is America falling in love with global football. 1994, the last men's World Cup, was here. It was meant to turn us overnight from, like, Captain. Kirk and space, the final frontier, to a proper football loving nation. It wasn't overnight. It's taken time. I wrote in my book--. JON STEWART: But it was profound. That '94 World Cup in America was profound in how it changed.

the way-- and the fact that we went and went into the knockout. round was a big deal for us. ROGER BENNETT: In stonewashed denim. It was beautiful. But before that World Cup, I wrote in my book that there was. a study taken about favorite sports in America, and soccer was 67th. Tractor pulling was 66th. The Economist has just done a study. that found that soccer is now America's third favorite sport. I was just on A-Rod's show, and he. kept being like, when's this soccer thing going to take off?

I was like, A-Rod it's third now. He'd be like, well, where's baseball? I'd be like, oh, I've got some bad news for you, man. It's number four now. JON STEWART: Right. ROGER BENNETT: But the other side of that. is the football world falling in love with America. And two things are very profound. Like, watching Lawrence, Kansas open its heart. to the Algerian team. There's just levels to that of openness and revealing. yourself, your heart, your soul to the world. and the world embracing us back.

And I will say, in this context, it feels so good-- feels so good and needed. And the world falling in love with things we take. for granted, but I've always looked at as an outsider. who's been embraced by Buc-ee's-- when. you do go to a Buc-ee's, it is a life changing. JON STEWART: Right. Yeah. ROGER BENNETT: The Waffle House, smothered. and covered lemon pepper wet--. JON STEWART: Sure. We take these things--. we take getting in a fistfight at 3:00 AM. over poached eggs for granted. ROGER BENNETT: Yeah. What do we fight for freedom for if not that, man?

Smothered and covered every time. But the other point is very true. And I want to be clear--. the embrace of football fans, Scottish fans--. I watch that with an equal marvel, Jon. When we were growing up, 1978 World Cup, 1990, even, the English fans were put on an island. off Italy so that the police could contain them, because football fandom was far more about a zero sum game. based on hate. And people went to the games. JON STEWART: The hooligan era. Yeah.

ROGER BENNETT: To watch the Scottish fans, to watch the Norwegian fans, to watch the fans embrace. each other, it's beautiful. It's needed. It's a world where the boundaries are porous. It is the World Cup of love. It's fleeting. I want to be clear. I'm under no illusion. JON STEWART: No question. ROGER BENNETT: But it's deeply profound. We had Diego Luna, the actor, on our show the other day, and he was talking with a marvel about watching. the Mexican fans just fall in love, this fusion of Mexican.

and South Korean fans. And he's like, what's happened to us? Proper fans used to just fire rockets. at the opposing team's hotel at 3:00 AM in the morning. Now, we're just embracing them, holding them, hugging them. I like the old way, but the new way is-- we need the new way. JON STEWART: But you know why that is, too? And I think it's this. And, Tariq, maybe you can speak to this. I think there is a thirst in the world-- the governments are. so at odds with each other, the rise of this kind. of autocratic nationalism, there is an air of tension.

and sort of imminent catastrophe, and it's a reminder that people are not their governments. The people are actually-- they connect on levels. of humanity and empathy. And this game, if it does anything, is bring that to the fore. TARIQ PANJA: Yeah. I was just going to say that. As my trip around the US-- and I've been in Tijuana as well.

with the Iranian team, because they've been. kind of exiled in Tijuana. And just on that first, the way the Mexicans and the Tijuanans. have taken to the Iranian national football team. is just magical to see because it. wouldn't have happened but for the awful circumstances. But then, people take over. Every day in the morning and at 4:00 PM when the teams are. going to go train, these people line up at the gates--.

these Mexican guys appear to celebrate this Iranian team. And then some of the Iranian diaspora. come across from Southern California to meet these guys. And it makes everybody feel warm and special. in this moment. And then looking at the US itself, I was worried--. I'll be honest with you, I was worried about this World Cup. I also worried about myself. I'm based in England. I look like this. I was going to come over, and I thought, oh, yeah, this. is going to be interesting.

What will immigration at the airport be like? Will I be in that room that I sometimes have to go in? Or will I get sent back-- like, all of these things. because this is the kind of vibe. JON STEWART: It's the moment in this country. TARIQ PANJA: Yeah. And from the outside as well-- like, I've covered a lot of World Cups, and the thing with Qatar and Russia, these were countries that were desperately trying to tell you. that whatever you're reading about us, we're not like that,

even if they might be like that. It was like, let's put the best possible facade on, if it is that, and make everyone. feel more welcome than they could possibly have imagined. But the posture of, I guess, the US government to the world. has been very different to the past, ie we're kind of closed. The World Cup is happening in a country that kind of doesn't. like the world right now. JON STEWART: Or the reverse. The world doesn't particularly like us right now. TARIQ PANJA: Yeah.

Do you want the hordes of these foreigners coming in? Do the foreigners feel comfortable coming in? So it was a really, really odd sensation before. And you've just nailed it as well. Like, people have taken over. It isn't a government event. JON STEWART: But isn't that always. the contradiction of sport? And, Roger, look, it's the beautiful game. And yet, it's run by maybe the ugliest bureaucracy--.

you know, FIFA is--. in 2015, there's an enormous scandal of bribery. Sepp Blatter-- FIFA officials from everywhere. are going to jail. It's very clear that Russia, and Qatar, and who knows about the United States, bought their World Cups, moved people around. Is it the frustration, Roger, sometimes. of a game you love so much, a game that is so unifying, that is so easily, at times, corrupted by the ruling.

body that runs the sport and the countries. that try and dominate it? And how do we separate that out? ROGER BENNETT: I don't know if we do. It's like cognitive dissonance. I mean, when you were talking about the emotionalism. of this experience and the people taking over you. could say that the same thing with the Knicks, Jon. JON STEWART: Wait, don't-- hey, watch yourself. ROGER BENNETT: You were there, man. You were there. Jon Stewart was there. Leaps from William & Mary. JON STEWART: In the streets, baby.

I was in the streets. ROGER BENNETT: I mean, you watch that, you watch side. tour, you watch all of that, and the human ecstasy, and the memory making, and the profound cross-generational. wonder that that's galvanized, no one's. stopping in that moment and being like, what. do you think about the owners? What do you think about the family that are running it. and what they're doing? It's just like-- I mean, you know what you feel. Everyone has their story that their dad's not here. to-- in those moments, you're like, my dad is not here to see this. I wish my dad was here.

My friend, great friends who died very young, huge Knicks fans, and their friends. wore jerseys that they'd given them back in the day. when they were kids. Football is both deeply rational and hyper, hyper, hyper emotional. And this is the pattern. Look, Tariq, we were in Brazil together in the run-up. to that World Cup. And it was doom and gloom, catastrophizing about this. We were there for the social unrest the year--.

you were held at knife point. It felt like darkness was about to reign. JON STEWART: Were you really, Tariq? TARIQ PANJA: Not during the tournament, but, yeah, I had my Brazil experience. ROGER BENNETT: In the run-up, right? TARIQ PANJA: Yeah, yeah. I was mugged in Lagoa. Wish you young men well, whatever you're doing. ROGER BENNETT: I mean, that's ultimately it. Football, more than any sport, its tremendous power. is that it holds a mirror up to the world that surrounds it. That's honestly the thing I've always loved. And the World Cup, more than anything, Jon,

is when two teams take the field, their nations'. histories, their nations' cultures, their nations'. politics take the field. It's not like-- when the San Diego Padres play the Chicago--. it's a great game of baseball. But, like, there's levels to this. And as a kid, the levels were always profound and remarkable, magical-- even when they weren't England-Argentina. in the shadow of the Falkland Wars, Germany against France, when France was still recovering. from its post-war identity--.

all kinds of stories on narratives that had heft. The world's just gotten so much darker. And so the stories have gotten darker. And it's still a mirror. We may not like the image of ourselves. that we're seeing of the complexity--. I mean, how the Iranian football--. JON STEWART: And the teams reflect it. ROGER BENNETT: Yeah. JON STEWART: France doesn't exist as a world power. right now without their story of colonialism, because those French players--. and there is always that tension.

of who is actually French or who is actually. of that country and the players not. necessarily feeling the love from the people. that-- it really is deep. TARIQ PANJA: And it will happen again and again. And that's the sad truth of this. I remember Mesut Ozil, the German player who won the World. Cup-- great, great attacking midfield player, and he had this quote-- he's from a Turkish background, and he said I'm German when we win,

but I'm Turkish when we lose. JON STEWART: Right. TARIQ PANJA: And I think he nailed it. And to your point about how can you. separate these things about FIFA, and the World Cup, and all of this thing--. I have a lot of people asking me, given what I write about, is often the kind of dark crevices. and the naughty corners of the game. And said, well, how do you still enjoy the World Cup? And I don't just enjoy it. I absolutely love this thing. I do. And it's a really simple answer. It's ours. It's not theirs.

JON STEWART: Right. TARIQ PANJA: The World Cup is everybody's. It's just got this FIFA logo on the thing. But it is this moment in time where we all own this thing. And we all have the right to enjoy it. Whether you can afford a ticket or not. You just have to go out in the streets. Those people in Lawrence, Kansas, they will have the best World Cup experience imaginable. They might not ever set foot in a football stadium.

And this will be happening all over the place--. also in homes all around the world. There'll be kids staying up, allowed. to stay up, very late in the middle of the night. And they'll be talking about it bleary. eyed at school the next day. This is our thing. Yes, there is a FIFA stamp on this. And FIFA is many, many things. But the tournament is everybody's. [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: Hey, listen to me.

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Exclusions apply. [MUSIC PLAYING]. I want to ask you guys, because Roger was talking. about the Knicks, and I can remember. how the Knicks imprinted on me when I was six. years old, seven years old. How were you imprinted? Where did your first memories of joy, and love, and family, and community, and soccer. come together? Tariq, I'll start with you and then Roger. TARIQ PANJA: For me, it was everything.

So you wake up, you have a ball in your hand, you're at school, and you're just trying to get out of that class and play. And then I was about five or so--. I still remember it. It's grainy memories of that World Cup. in '86, which was in Mexico. And I remember being taken to an uncle's house--. when you're Asian, an uncle's house means a lot of people.

And it was an era where--. [LAUGHTER]. --who's got the biggest TV-- and there's only one TV. Like, these days, that's the other thing. Like, this second screening, a multi-screening, it's kind of taken away something, and headphones, and all of these things where people aren't as-- you're. almost forced to watch together, whether you like it or not. You might not--. JON STEWART: This is pre-cable with the little antennas. that stick up and move around. And the TV is wider than it is tall and deeper.

than it is wide. TARIQ PANJA: And you've got this guy who is both a hero. and a villain in Diego Maradona. JON STEWART: Yes. TARIQ PANJA: This complete one-off. And what he did to England in '86, I just don't think there'll be two moments like this. JON STEWART: Right. TARIQ PANJA: You can't script this stuff. where he has jumped into the air and Hand of Goded. the opener. JON STEWART: Yes.

They called it the Hand of God. It was really just the hand. ROGER BENNETT: It's brilliant, though. No, it was brilliant, though, by the way. He not only did it, Tariq, he then, in the post-match interview, they. said, did you handle the ball? And he said it was a little bit the head of Diego, a little bit the hand of God. That's genius. TARIQ PANJA: He was a genius because the next thing he did. just leaves you slack jawed and, like--. JON STEWART: Are you talking about the goal. where he basically takes it--. TARIQ PANJA: He ran from the halfway line.

JON STEWART: It was crazy. TARIQ PANJA: In this beautiful sunlight in this stadium. And it's just magical. So the next day, guess who we're all calling ourselves? We're all Maradona in the playground. Either we're trying to do a Hand of God--. JON STEWART: Or you're going through everybody. TARIQ PANJA: Yeah. And I absolutely fell in love with this tournament, with these people, with this game, all of this. And it endures despite everything, to be honest.

JON STEWART: And it has levels where it connects, you. know, Maradona. And now we watch Argentina today. and Messi is touched by the hand of God. Here's a man who's 39 years old, who is, obviously, one of the most prolific scorers. that the game has ever seen. He can't be more than 5'5, like Maradona, has this incredible sense of the goal, and has. put away 5 goals in two games. He's scored every goal for Argentina in the run of play.

ROGER BENNETT: Without ever running. JON STEWART: The penalty kick that he was given, he misses. ROGER BENNETT: Without ever breaking into a run. It's like the closest we will ever. get to watching someone with Jedi powers just mind meld. It's really--. JON STEWART: Remarkable. ROGER BENNETT: He's the figure, more than any, that--. he's bigger in America than the game of football itself. The Maradona thing was amazing because the Falklands. War came before. So he didn't just do it, he did it in the context. of geopolitical chaos.

And I think a lot about it. Like, he cheated. He punched the ball in, listeners. You're not allowed to use your hands. And then minutes later, while we were all howling in agony, he cheated, he cheated--. essentially, the equivalent of a kickoff return. through the whole team, our whole heroes, eviscerated all of them. Afterwards, one was interviewed, said, why. didn't you try and kick him? He said, we did. He was just that fast. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: He looked like he was moving at double speed. I mean, if you get a chance to go on YouTube. or whatever to find the goal, it's remarkable.

ROGER BENNETT: The Argentinian commentator, find his translation. "Cosmic kite," he screams as he does it. It's beautiful. TARIQ PANJA: So good. ROGER BENNETT: I went outside as a kid, I'd just seen my heroes emasculated, and I just got--. I was so angry. By the way, Maradona could have done the second goal. whenever he wanted. He wanted to cheat us. He wanted to show us, I can F you this way, and now I'm going to F you that way. And I can do both, because you are. my whatever insert word there. And I went outside, 15-year-old me, in agony.

My heroes had been eviscerated. And I took my football, soccer ball, and just drove it--. I wrote about this in my book-- drove. it right through the front window of my house in agony. And my dad, who was quick to anger himself, just looked at me as the glass tinkled down and he goes, I understand. [LAUGHTER]. I understand. And now I have on my wall in my office, I have that framed handball signed by Maradona, because I'm grateful that I saw it. And this is the point, Jon-- ultimately, I'm dead.

inside, man. The world has killed me. I am confused, and lost, and unmoored. But when I feel these things, when. I see Messi do what he did yesterday, I know I'm feeling things that most people feel in real life. but I'm dead to, and I'm feeling it. with millions of other people. We are paying witness. JON STEWART: This is your conduit back to the living, in many respects. ROGER BENNETT: I don't know if it is. I'm like Matthew McConaughey behind the bookshelves, man. I'm just--. JON STEWART: What's going on with the--. ROGER BENNETT: I'm like, ooh, I feel thing.

JON STEWART: You're going through the whole McConaughey. oeuvre here. It really is. ROGER BENNETT: Well, some people have the Bible--. and I think McConaughey has hit every single human emotion. I love, like, the rom-coms, man. JON STEWART: How did you come to it, though, Roger? You're 15 in the '86 World Cup. But when did you first-- like with Tariq, when did it first imprint itself upon you. that this was something special that. was going to be in your life? ROGER BENNETT: Oh, god. I'm from Liverpool. I'm from Liverpool. Liverpool football is like Indiana high school basketball,

Texas high school football. JON STEWART: Oliver has made me a Liverpool fan, by the way. ROGER BENNETT: Oh, Jon. JON STEWART: That's what he did. That's what he-- listen, I made him a Mets fan. He made me a Liverpool fan. TARIQ PANJA: That's killed you there. ROGER BENNETT: Is this true? Is this true? Is this true? Man, if you're a Mets fan, Jon, you should be an Everton--. I don't want to tell anyone how to live their life, but you like pain. You like joy that's fleeting. You like hope. You like doomed hope. You like--. JON STEWART: Doom. Doom is really the--. doom is the operative word there.

ROGER BENNETT: Come on, man. Come with me on this journey to misery. Come with me, my friend. Come on, take my hand. I've got to talk to you after about this, Jon. This is not the way. But we'll pick that up. Look, so in Liverpool, football, music are like air, water, fire, man. So they're just there. My dad chose Everton when he was a kid. We often used to say, would we be. different if we were Liverpool fans and we won things? He'd be like, we'd be unbearable. We wouldn't appreciate things.

You have to not win. And he wouldn't call it losing. He'd be, sometimes not winning is important. And he'd say, when you do eke out something joyous, you just have to dance like you're. at your own kid's wedding. I think the truth of life is in football or sports fandom, you've just lived it as a Knicks fan, man. But first World Cup, 1978, it's where I start my book. Like, football in England when I grew up. was muddy pitches, violent men, a backwater. You'd go to the games.

I'd go with my dad, who was a decent man. We'd routinely step over broken, bloodied bodies. on the way to the game, men just holding their hand. out asking for help, their teeth smashed out by a brick. JON STEWART: Right. Because they wore the wrong scarf. ROGER BENNETT: Yeah. And you wouldn't even, like, look at them. You would be like, oh, yeah, that's. just-- your brain would just be like, oh, there's another broken body. Yes, you'd step-- excuse me, on the way to the game. Just carnage everywhere. Like, you just see police horses charging. people with iron bars. I've seen men punch police horses. Craziness. [LAUGHTER]. I've seen it. Seen it all.

That's--. JON STEWART: Is that because the horses. were rooting for Liverpool? ROGER BENNETT: I never asked. [LAUGHTER]. [INTERPOSING VOICES] [SCOUSE ACCENT]. ROGER BENNETT: Yeah, lad, you're going to get it. JON STEWART: That's what happens. ROGER BENNETT: So that's my culture. And in 1978, the World Cup was in Argentina. We didn't have much live football on in England either. It kicked off, and the first game. we tuned in-- huge stadium, thousands and thousands. from the bleachers as the Argentina took the field--. the fans threw toilet rolls-- thousands.

and thousands of toilet rolls cascaded down, confetti, joyous. And my mother, very practical, turned around to us. and goes, who'd take a toilet roll to a football game, love? But I turned to my dad and I was like, oh, my god, dad, football can be joyous. It can be fun. Who knew? And the dark side of this, Jon, because I. know you're a dark man and you want darkness--. and so what I give to you is that 1978 World Cup was run.

by the military junta to try and-- they hired. an American PR company, what was it, Burson-Marsteller, who did--. JON STEWART: Oh, that's right. ROGER BENNETT: They did a paper called. "What Is True for Products is Also True for Countries.". And Henry Kissinger was hired to publicly proclaim, now, the world will see the true face of Argentina. JON STEWART: Oh, right. ROGER BENNETT: And even then, watching this, that's the dissonance that you want. JON STEWART: You're right. ROGER BENNETT: Even then, 1978, there was a human--.

people were being thrown out of planes at the same time. as we were watching Argentina win the World Cup. JON STEWART: No, that's a remarkable juxtaposition there, because I think you're absolutely right. And so in that same moment of the darkness, and I think this is what we're talking about, is you feel the hope. If we can just break through those hierarchies. and structures that are holding everything back. and we get to suddenly touch each other's hearts.

during these things-- and I know. that sounds ridiculously overwrought and maudlin, but it really is true. And I tell you this--. watching the Knicks in the street Game 5 and thinking back. to the first time I was at the Garden in the early. '70s in the nosebleeds, watching the Knicks. and the Celtics, going to those games with my son, being in the street with my son, with my wife, with my friends, feeling the streets--.

I'm telling you, it was--. I am not a religious man. This was spiritual. ROGER BENNETT: So funny, man. JON STEWART: It's wild. ROGER BENNETT: Jon Stewart, I'm a horrible man. I moved to America in 1993, September. I landed in Chicago. Second night, breaking news, Michael Jordan's retiring. I felt terrible, like I'd done it-- like, guilty. And then I watched the Bulls season,

that Michael Jordan-less bulls season before he came back--. Toni Kukoc, Scottie Pippen. JON STEWART: The one year we thought. we could win the championship. ROGER BENNETT: Yes. Yes. Yes. And, by the way, I'd never watched basketball before, but I became mesmerized. This Bulls team, they had a center, Luc Longley, who was from Australia. JON STEWART: Australian dude. Yeah. ROGER BENNETT: He and I arrived in Chicago at the same time. Neither of us really seemed to know what. the hell we were doing there. And I loved him. And I watched him. And then we played the Knicks in that epic battle between,

it felt like, to me, good and evil. Like, I still have nightmares of John. Starks' pubey mustache--. JON STEWART: Wait, who was who? ROGER BENNETT: For me, I'm going to be honest with you, I was [INAUDIBLE] Bulls. Yeah. And I watched John Starks destroy. us with his pubey mustache. And three nights a year, I will wake up. in a cold sweat like just John Starks-- like a Cheshire cat, just the mustache is left. And I'm like, oh, my god, Anthony. Mason, what an athlete he was. JON STEWART: Yes. ROGER BENNETT: Oakley turned the Benedict--. JON STEWART: That was in the days of the--.

they were bruisers. ROGER BENNETT: Yes. And so they beat the--. we were valiant, but you beat the crap out of us. And I hated--. I really, really, really hated the Knicks. I'll get to my point here. I'm a horrible person. I carry that hate in my heart. The older I get-- my kids, I'm a New York person now, despite my accent-- the older I get, the more I'm just like, you know what? Whatever gives you-- my kids are all huge Knicks fans. It's my worst parenting. I can't stand it. It's really upset me. It's really upset me.

It's, like, really dark. And my wife can't understand it, but it really upsets me. But even I, Jon, this is my point--. watching them feel that joy, feel that connection, feel that memory-making, feel that sense. that everything is possible--. kids listening to this, everything isn't possible. But even me with my dark heart, I'm so happy for you. JON STEWART: But once every 53 years, something like that. is possible. ROGER BENNETT: So happy for you.

I'm happy for you, Jon. JON STEWART: Tariq, have you ever had that? In your rooting life, have you ever. had that feeling of deprivation and the deprivation, suddenly going to the mountaintop. and feeling that the distance between the two, making it. sweeter like that? What's been your history as a fan? Is it heartbreak? TARIQ PANJA: Well, I'll tell you, I'm kind of a fan of the sport, I'd say, these days, rather than a fan--. JON STEWART: What are you, Elmo?

You won't pick a side? TARIQ PANJA: I'm not going to. But what I'd say, I live recently--. I just had this magical experience-- this. is what I want to talk about. Like, New York and London have both had these moments. a few weeks apart. And I was watching what's happening. in New York from a distance. I'm not a basketball guy, a New York guy, or a Knicks guy, but it felt very familiar watching this. I live in North London where Arsenal play.

JON STEWART: Go on, you Gunner. TARIQ PANJA: Yeah. And I must say, whichever neighborhood it is, and it doesn't matter which country--. I was in Argentina recently reporting. as well-- where you have a lot of neighborhood teams. When the neighborhood team is doing well or something is up, it's in the air, there's just a different little spark. or a different little magic. People are looking at each other in the eye, smiling--. maybe even a little nod. And Arsenal hadn't won the league in 22 years.

And they're not an Everton-- sorry, Rog. You know, they are one of the bigger teams in world football. But still, 22 years--. there's generations of people who haven't seen this team. lift the Premier League title. And they did. And the parade in our little corner of--. it was, honestly, one of the most magical afternoons. of my life, to be honest. I'm not a fan of Arsenal as well.

This is the point. JON STEWART: Joy is infectious, man. Joy is infectious. TARIQ PANJA: It was amazing. ROGER BENNETT: And more than ever, though-- more than ever, man-- more than ever, we need that. TARIQ PANJA: We need it. We need this stuff. We do need this stuff. And the thing that I just marveled at. was I'm seeing, like, women in hijabs. Everyone, all sects of society--. there's a guy with a pint, a woman with a hijab, and they're singing the same songs.

The streets were packed. Every type of person imaginable was there, communing in this one spot, this one day. When the number 19 was stopped going down Blackstock Road. and people pouring on, the bus driver. was infected with this joy. Not like, guys, I'm on my route here, what are you doing? Get on board. And a party on the bus full of everyone.

ROGER BENNETT: But not just there, Tariq. It was across Africa, man, across Asia. You saw massive, massive. It's only-- but I think the point-- and the Knicks, we need. the joy more than ever, man. JON STEWART: This is why though the FIFA. Peace Prize is so meaningful. People look forward to that FIFA Peace Prize being given. out every year because of what soccer, football, brings to the world. [MUSIC PLAYING].

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[MUSIC PLAYING]. We know what it feels like. How do we turn off the part of our brain. that gets upset about sportswashing, or these terrible regimes that are using our joy, our feeling, our empathy against us to ease their own guilt, burden, reputation, FIFA Peace Prize--.

I get angry at myself for not being able to separate them. TARIQ PANJA: I don't think we should be. I think we should be able to carry both thoughts. JON STEWART: Yeah. TARIQ PANJA: And it's really important. to hold these guys to account. JON STEWART: I mean, well, that's what you do. I mean, Tariq, that you do better than anybody. I mean, that's so much of what you're reporting is. TARIQ PANJA: Well, it's because it's really important, because we've just spent the last 48 minutes, or I can see the countdown, so about that time talking.

about how great this sport is, this thing. humanity has produced is. And the fact that these guys are able to--. I don't want to use the word govern, but take it hostage, in a way, is something that. should not be allowed to pass. There are good people in football, but the lack of accountability over the most popular. human pastime, this thing that stirs all these emotions,

the things that bring all of these politicians, or dictators, and governments to want to, like, cleave it towards themselves is something. that is super important. But there is zero accountability. over these people. JON STEWART: Well, 2015 really was a moment of accountability. I mean, even for someone like Michel Platini, who is a legend, a player and a legend, being held to account. TARIQ PANJA: Absolutely. But you talked about this-- that was a huge moment.

You're seeing the most powerful football executives being. yanked out of beds at 6:00 AM in a luxury Swiss hotel, obviously, and then being taken out, perp walked, taken to New York. And we have the biggest scandal in sports. And here we are 10 years later, and the film. that I think of every time when I think of FIFA. is Terminator 2, that villain who couldn't be.

killed-- the other terminator. T-1000, I think he was called, where he would just reformulate. into exactly the same--. JON STEWART: Roger doesn't know that if McConaughey's. not in it. If McConaughey's not in it, he doesn't know what's happening. ROGER BENNETT: If it's not a McConaughey film, I'm not interested. I'm trying to-- by the way, Jon, I am sitting here trying to think which McConaughey film. shows you how to have cognitive dissonance.

but hold two truths to be evident at the same time. And I realize all of them, even the rom-coms, do that. JON STEWART: That's probably true. That's probably true. But, Tariq, so, like you said, 10 years later, they've dropped. the investigations into FIFA. They've stopped. And right now, the cozy relationship. between FIFA and Trump, our Department of Justice. has dropped all investigations. TARIQ PANJA: I was thinking about this. and looking at when Trump came in-- a couple. of things happened.

I remember being at a conference. and seeing the news saying that the Foreign. Corrupt Practices Act isn't something the US care about. So foreign corruption, yeah, we're not into this anymore. Just to read that headline was pretty stark. JON STEWART: Well, he also made an announcement that it was OK. if companies in America bribe foreign officials. for business--. I mean, explicitly saying, hey, man, that's. just how things are done. So if you need to bribe people, knock yourself out.

TARIQ PANJA: Yeah. It's like a level-- the others are doing it, so we're going to be left behind if we don't do this. And then the other thing they said. is, like, this type of white collar crime. is not a priority for the DOJ. And what is the point of these organizations? Or what is the point of the DOJ if you do not want to tackle--. JON STEWART: I think revenge. I think the point of the DOJ, if I'm being clear, I think it's revenge. TARIQ PANJA: So great for those guys.

And then you have--. for me, it's been the backdrop of my career, basically. And you see all of these people have. been arrested and taken away and a new group have come in. And slowly, and then very quickly, they realized-- you're like, oh, if I cross this line here, will anyone notice? No. No one has.

And then that line gets so far away from where you've started. that it is a free rein. There were things brought in, like term limits. They were like, yeah, we're going. to have to have good governance models, term limits. All of these guys are bashing through their term limits. Term limits, schmerm limits. This is fantastic. We're just honorable people. Why do we need term limits? You can trust us. JON STEWART: Right. TARIQ PANJA: And then the model isn't. to cater to fans like Roger, or yourself, or the teams, or the players.

FIFA is beholden to 211 Gianni Infantinos, other football presidents. And what do you do, what do you give them? You give them gifts. You give them--. JON STEWART: Peace prize. TARIQ PANJA: Peace prizes to Trump, but also to the football-- because you. wonder who's going to change. Why is football not asking for change? I'll give you an example. Just now, the day after the opening game in Mexico City, where all of the football world were invited-- so presidents. and the senior hierarchies of each.

of these national federations-- come to Mexico City, stay in a lovely hotel, and come to the opening. game of the World Cup. And you think, OK, that's great. But that's not all you get. Then get on a plane, we're going. to fly you to Miami, five days at the Ritz Carlton in Miami. Enjoy, guys. And guess what? Gianni Infantino is going for re-election next year. Just remember that while you're here.

Who supplied all of this? JON STEWART: Wow. TARIQ PANJA: And it rolls on. And it rolls on and on. We have more uncontested elections in football. than, think about your worst dictatorship. We just don't have a conversation, a debate, all of these things. Like, my phone might have a bunch of WhatsApps. from upset football executives. And I always say, well, why are you telling me this? Why don't you just say it? Because they're all enjoying themselves. $300,000 a year.

for three Zoom meetings. It's not bad, is it? JON STEWART: I'm mad, but I don't. want to stop the gravy train. TARIQ PANJA: Correct. Because there's so much gravy on that train. The tracks are so slick right now. JON STEWART: I hate to draw the analogy, but it's not that different from the United States. Congress, to be quite frank. I mean, it's a group of people who. are no longer answerable to the constituents. that they purportedly represent. And they're sort of enjoying this separate world.

that they've created. It's a kind of impenetrable bubble. And I wonder, Roger, do you ever, as you're going around this world, how do they view you? Because you're such an asset to, especially--. not just around the world, but in America-- to the fan? You're bringing this game and really evangelizing, right? And so I imagine they view you as an asset,

but I also think they probably know they can't control you. So how do they view your platform and what you bring? ROGER BENNETT: Who's "they," Jon? JON STEWART: FIFA. The people that control. ROGER BENNETT: You'll have to ask them. JON STEWART: The head of Qatar. ROGER BENNETT: I mean, you'll have to--. JON STEWART: Putin. ROGER BENNETT: I mean, god, Putin is on our Discord, very active on the Men in Blazers Discord. TARIQ PANJA: What's his username? ROGER BENNETT: @Vlad3237. JON STEWART: VladdyDaddy. It's always VladdyDaddy.

ROGER BENNETT: Ultimately, I mean, what Tariq's laid out. is the cognitive dissonance. How do you get out of bed in the morning, Jon Stewart? Like, how do you function in the morning? How do you do anything? It's hard. And the world is complicated. I think about, and have from the very beginning, we started off as one podcast. We've grown this thing into a whole network that.

has a whole women's platform, has a Hispanic platform, Vamos, three different communities. And so what I think about is nourishing them. I think about what the game brings. to them, what watching together brings to people's life. John Oliver comes on our show every year. It's my favorite moment in the year. because I think about this a lot, work on this a lot, and he just kind of breezes in and just does it so.

much better than I ever could. JON STEWART: No. And, by the way, you don't pay him for that, right? I mean, that's not a paid appearance. ROGER BENNETT: With Oliver--. Oliver demands huge, huge-- yes. Private planes. We're not allowed to look at him in the eye. JON STEWART: He was like that with us. Same thing. Spoiled. ROGER BENNETT: Yeah, I know. He's difficult. JON STEWART: Spoiled. ROGER BENNETT: He comes on because he just loves football, man-- loves Liverpool Football Club. But do not go that way, Jon Stewart. [LAUGHTER]. But every year, at the end of the interview, I ask him--.

ultimately, there's an old cliché in football, which has been warmed up a lot by a lot of different people--. football is the most important least important thing. And I always do wonder whether there's a moment in time, whether being a football fan-- because I do, I think about fandom. I think about experiences. I think about memories. I think about the--. football, for me, has become more important the more. challenging everything becomes, because it. is, in all seriousness, where even fleeting joy, fleeting sense of deep, profound connectivity, a lot.

of the good stuff can occur. And I do always ask him, I'm like, is there a point where it becomes almost. like we're fiddling while Rome is. burning by watching football? He's like, well, no one ever talks about whether Nero. was a really good fiddler. He's very, very good. JON STEWART: Can I push back against that? I don't think it's bread and circuses always. I don't think it's necessarily governments ways. of distracting us while they do the dirty work of what they do.

I think it's actually a way of people. acting out community rather than. distraction-- that it's reminding us that those people. are fleeting. Jesse Owens in the Munich Olympics, when he showed Hitler what was what--. these are the kinds of things. I've taken a very different view of it. I agree with you, Roger, like, there's a certain part.

of you where you feel like, oh, this shit just doesn't matter. It's just stupid. But think about Lawrence, Kansas. Think about how people are responding. to learning about different cultures. for the very first time. It is unifying and grounding in a really important--. in a really important way. And the more we resist those evil forces. co-opting that beauty, that's part of the struggle.

I know this sounds ridiculous, I. know I am sounding ridiculous. ROGER BENNETT: I couldn't agree--. I want to be clear. I think it's become more important. I think it's more important than ever sustaining. this community, not taking--. I mean, this is the motto of everything. that we do-- do not take a second of watching. football together for granted. I mean, it's become the most powerful thing, this conversation with fans, these sense. of feelings, these sense of active memory making.

So that's how I approach it. And I don't spend a second, Jon, thinking about what people. think about me or, like, how am I. [INAUDIBLE] There's no good energy. that comes out of that, man. So I'm just trying to focus on--. I'm trying to do good things with really good people, put a sense of positivity, a sense. of joy, a sense of [INAUDIBLE]. There's so many great things that we're watching.

Like the Vozinha story--. JON STEWART: Amazing. ROGER BENNETT: The goalkeeper-- it's tenacity. I mean, tenacity is probably the greatest human value, I think. JON STEWART: Resilience. Yes, yes, yes. ROGER BENNETT: So these are the things. that I spend a lot of time thinking about, a lot. of time trying to articulate, a lot. of time trying to storytell. And that's how I approach all of this. TARIQ PANJA: You know, I was at this game between Jordan. and Algeria yesterday here in the Bay Area where. this prison cell is and--.

[LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: Yeah, that looks like actually a Motel 3. I don't even think that's a Motel 6. TARIQ PANJA: I got talking to these Jordanian fans. outside the team's hotel there. And they said, we are all over America. It's such a big country. We are everywhere. And they came from Dearborn, from New Jersey, from other parts of California.

And they said, we've never had a moment, ever, where we've all been able to come together. This qualification for the World Cup. has brought all of these disparate Jordanians--. and this is just one example. There'll be 47 other examples of this. JON STEWART: It's a focus for the diaspora. TARIQ PANJA: To San Jose outside the Hilton Hotel, where they're chanting and probably ruining. some businessman's Zoom meeting--. [LAUGHTER].

--while they're waiting for the team to come out. And I just thought it was just a very, very interesting and important moment to realize, what else can do that? I'm not sure there are many other things that can do this. And here we are. And we've got a few more weeks of this to enjoy. JON STEWART: That's right. TARIQ PANJA: Let's enjoy it. JON STEWART: When is the final? July 19? Is that--. TARIQ PANJA: That's right. JON STEWART: So how does this-- so we're going to move. into the knockout round. Let's play out a little bit of who's advancing,

where we're going to go. And we'll wrap up with a little not necessarily speculation, but a little predictive. Is this very much like the kind of March Madness. that Americans are used to where you'll get a Cinderella. here or there, but ultimately, by the end, it's the Blue Bloods? It's going to be France, it's going to be Spain, it's going to be maybe Netherlands, who's playing remarkably well. I don't know about Germany right now.

Argentina. How do you guys see this? Where's it going to go? What might be some of the surprises? ROGER BENNETT: Oh, the honest truth is we don't know a lot. Every team's played twice. It's an enormous-- it is an ultra marathon, this thing. It's a massive, bloated tournament. The Germans have a notion for you. don't want to peak too soon. They always believe you won't be a [SPEAKING GERMAN]. A tournament team that finds their rhythm, finds their way, finds their--. JON STEWART: What is the name they have?

ROGER BENNETT: They have a name for everything, Jon. JON STEWART: They really do. ROGER BENNETT: I just found out they. have a name, a thing for internal monologue and anxiety. called [SPEAKING GERMAN] which is the cinema that plays. inside your head, which means that you're. lost in your own mind, which I love. [SPEAKING GERMAN] JON STEWART: Yeah. [SPEAKING GERMAN]. TARIQ PANJA: Well, McConaughey in your head. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: They have a name for. that-- a McConaughfockenvomel. ROGER BENNETT: Yeah, that's me trying to get out. of the [SPEAKING GERMAN] is--. JON STEWART: Yes. Understood. ROGER BENNETT: --is to embrace your inner McConaughey. But, ultimately, teams will reveal.

themselves in the knockout round-- their true self. First game, you don't really know. Second game-- and, ultimately, it's. like you played-- and I'm going to lose you younger viewers. There used to be a game called Punchout where you'd. be Mike Tyson fighting, you know, better and better opponents. That's what the World Cup is. It's just a game of Punchout until we get to the open water. of the knockout rounds. Now I'm rooting for a US-Cape Verde final. It is the joy of this tournament. that these tiny nations--.

JON STEWART: That would be. ROGER BENNETT: They're like the St. Peter's Peacocks, whoever they were in, when was it, '22. JON STEWART: The Bad News Bears. ROGER BENNETT: Yeah. These teams, everyone now-- they've all had access to not. just training and coaching, but the other. thing you were talking about diasporas earlier--. Tariq was talking about fan diasporas and diasporas coming. together, and colonialism. Like, the reality is in France--. Paris itself has, like, 73 footballers represented. They're not just stocking the French team there,

they're stocking the Senegalese team, the Moroccan team. JON STEWART: Right. ROGER BENNETT: Germany, the blurring of boundaries--. JON STEWART: Balogun, even in the United States. I mean--. ROGER BENNETT: God bless. JON STEWART: It's incredible-- coming from Africa, coming from Europe, coming from Asia. I mean, it's amazing. ROGER BENNETT: And so these teams, even the tiny teams, have access to true talent pools of footballers that have. done far more than if it was truly just a representation. of, like, people who only grew up and played. football in Cape Verde. So it is magnificent.

I'm thrilled for the little teams, I will say. To see Cape Verde's name on a scorebug by Spain, to see Curacao's name-- this must feel--. I have never been to either place, but it must feel absolutely just like an epic national. achievement-- not just sporting, but in their nation's history, to see themselves reflected--. JON STEWART: And epic even in defeat. I can remember-- maybe it was 2002. when the US played Germany.

We lost 2-1. TARIQ PANJA: Oh, yeah. JON STEWART: We lost 2 to 1. OK--. ROGER BENNETT: 1-0, I think. JON STEWART: 1-0, I think. ROGER BENNETT: It's your show. Keep going. JON STEWART: All right. ROGER BENNETT: Tell your story. JON STEWART: I'm probably wrong. I thought we lost 2 to 1. ROGER BENNETT: Jonny Stewart, what does it even matter? It's your memories that matter. JON STEWART: But you know what? We lost 8 to 4. ROGER BENNETT: Yeah, I remember that game. I remember that game. JON STEWART: But what it was, we. actually dominated play for a good portion of the match.

And this was for an American team that had always been. defined by its goalkeepers. We'd always been defined by we would form the turtle shell, and we would have Brazil come at us, and take 25 shots. And if we got out of there with a 1-0 loss, we'd be thinking--. this was the first time I remember watching the American. team against what you were talking about, that top shelf world quality and have moments of actual.

dominance possession wise. ROGER BENNETT: Yeah. JON STEWART: Everything. ROGER BENNETT: There was a German. that handled the American shot when. it was going in on the line--. Torsten Frings, name him and shame him. He handled the ball when the ball was going in, and the referee did not see it. It's a human agony. And it's the closest we've come. We would have been in the semifinal. And, ultimately, this is the one. place-- it is something to think about for your listeners. If the American men do become good at football,

it will be the end of the game of football for many fans. It will be like when Deep Blue beat Gary Kasparov at chess. It'll be like-- they'll be like, sod it, the machines have won. We have nothing to hold over them. Because right now, I want to say this--. they laugh at us calling it soccer. JON STEWART: That's so funny. ROGER BENNETT: Because they know that we recoil. We're like, oh, my god, we're not meant to call it that. In England, the biggest shows on television. are called Soccer AM, Soccer Saturday. They use the word, but they also. know that we are so like slightly.

inferior-- we're so superior in so many things. and we act like it, but we're very. inferior in men's football. And the world loves it. Everyone laughs at us. JON STEWART: They love it. ROGER BENNETT: They know that we know that they know that we. know that we're bad at it. JON STEWART: And they love every. time an American announcer uses the word "pitch.". They take a great-- they take a great pride in the fact. that they are forcing an American. into this foreign vernacular that sounds so contrived. ROGER BENNETT: And so the Lalas-Zlatan--. the Lalas-Zlatan--.

I'm convinced it's a rom-com. JON STEWART: Alexi Lalas and Zlatan is pro wrestling. ROGER BENNETT: It's a symbolic--. it's a symbolic battle for the future of civilization. It's not just about two guys in the studio. JON STEWART: Oh, god. I don't want either of them to win. [LAUGHTER]. TARIQ PANJA: Thierry Henry from the sidelines. JON STEWART: Yes. That's who we want. We want Thierry. ROGER BENNETT: From the top rope. JON STEWART: That's what we want. TARIQ PANJA: Jon, I have a good feeling for the US. I think they're on the good side of the draw. if there is a good side.

So there is a chance that a pathway opens up here. JON STEWART: Into 16. TARIQ PANJA: You know, you mentioned 2002. I think this tournament has a little bit of the hallmarks. of that one where Turkey were unfancied, the US were relatively unfancied. There were teams-- Senegal-- there were teams making runs. This tournament reminds me a lot of 2002. And there could be a journey or two for people or teams.

that we're not thinking about. However, I think the final on July the 19th. will be two heavyweights. JON STEWART: I think there's probably no question there. But here's what I will say that we haven't brought up yet, and this is not to flatter you both--. the Lions. They have a deep, talented--. Harry Kane at 32 years old still. shows he has the finishing capability to carry a team. I mean, this year in the Bundesliga, not to suggest that's anywhere near the Premier League,

but to have that-- and in Champions League, he had more goals than games, even. ROGER BENNETT: How much football. are you watching, Jon Stewart? I'm loving all of this. TARIQ PANJA: I was just thinking the same. I'm loving this. JON STEWART: I'm watching it right now, Roger. I'm not even actually paying attention to this conversation. I'm actually watching through my screen Serie A. TARIQ PANJA: Yep. JON STEWART: That's right. I'm watching whatever Milan team. they want to throw at me at this time of day, I'm watching. ROGER BENNETT: Do you know how many Premier League teams are.

going to be making offers for you. to become a co-owner in the wake of this? JON STEWART: Done. ROGER BENNETT: This is just amazing. TARIQ PANJA: 100%. JON STEWART: I'm there. ROGER BENNETT: I feel like Tariq. and I are just tools for you to buy into to Bournemouth AFC. Up the cherries. JON STEWART: Absolutely. TARIQ PANJA: West Ham are up for grabs, and here comes Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: Oh, and by the way, West. Ham, what a remarkable little story that's been, yeah? I mean, the whole thing is--. I love it. But I also know, and this is through Oliver, that nobody breaks your heart like England.

will break your heart. But I'm telling you this year, I see something there. Bellingham, Kane-- I'm telling you, there's something there that's special. And I think if they could put it together, they could be one of those heavyweights. standing at the end--. standing at the end watching Donald Trump. hold up the World Cup trophy. TARIQ PANJA: You know--. [LAUGHTER]. I'm feeling you. I'm feeling you, Jon. But it's just very hard--.

JON STEWART: Yes. I'm trying to--. TARIQ PANJA: It's very hard to say out loud. This is a very, very good football-- this. is a very good football team. JON STEWART: It's a very, very good football team. TARIQ PANJA: However, I'm not sure the English people. are capable of being World Cup winners. I don't know how we're going to handle it. So maybe--. ROGER BENNETT: You do know how-- you do know. how they handle it, Tariq. TARIQ PANJA: It won't be good. It won't be good. I don't know if it will be good--. I think glorious failure. JON STEWART: Do they rejoin the EU at that point if they win? Did they just go, we're back?

TARIQ PANJA: I think at this moment in time, glorious failure's probably the right thing to happen. ROGER BENNETT: I'm not--. I mean, I'm not an England fan, but you do know how--. I mean, I grew up in Liverpool, which considered itself. a republic like Monaco, or Liechtenstein, or whatever-- like a socialist republic. When I was a kid, Liverpool was trying. to cede from the rest of England. and become a republic, which was just so insane and amazing. So, like, Liverpool people, we didn't. cheer for England growing up. It was famously-- like, we were in the north.

Liverpool was-- England was, like, a certain symbol. And at the same time, I felt for them--. even though I'm, like, very much team America now, I felt. for them. Like, my dad, the desperation, the hunger, the desire--. he'd seen 1966, which felt closer to 1066 to me-- like, the desolation. For anyone still listening to this--. JON STEWART: The Normans lost 1-0 in 1066. ROGER BENNETT: We should have had them until the arrow went. into the eye. It was--.

JON STEWART: Hand of God. ROGER BENNETT: Yeah, all of that-- all of that--. [LAUGHTER]. All of that is fused. The arrow going into the eye, the handling the ball. It's the end of empire. But it is amazing--. England, if you're still listening, it's like Charlie Brown kicking a football with Lucy holding. Like, something does always go wrong. But, Jon Stewart if England win a World Cup now, on American turf, in the 250th anniversary of independence, it is-- you know, Tariq, there will be rockets fired out.

of anuses that aren't meant to contain. rockets but will look magnificent. all over this nation. And, god, I'm not sure America is ready--. I'm not sure America is ready for that denouement. JON STEWART: I love it. Gentlemen, I can't tell you the pleasure I have. taken in this conversation. I'm loving this tournament. I'm loving both of your coverage of this tournament. and just big fans. Roger Bennett, founder of Men in Blazers Media Network, Tariq Panja, Global Sports Correspondent,

the New York Times. Guys, thank you so much for being here. TARIQ PANJA: Oh, thanks for having us. ROGER BENNETT: Thank you, Jon. And when you do buy West Ham, just--. JON STEWART: You have a spot in the owner's box, my friend. No problem. ROGER BENNETT: Tickets half price. JON STEWART: Tickets half price. One drink, though. One drink ticket. That's all. [LAUGHTER]. [MUSIC PLAYING]. Guys, I want to thank you both for listening to my men's. encounter group session. [LAUGHTER]. GILLIAN SPEAR: I loved it.

It was great. JON STEWART: Out of all the podcasts I think we've done, that's the first one where I think almost all the guests. cried or almost cried. GILLIAN SPEAR: And the producers cried. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I cried. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. JON STEWART: We're talking about the families, and the my father, and the way that he, working class--. because it really is how it connects in such a deeper--. sports, music, they connect on these levels. beneath the surface of language and everything else.

Are you guys huge sports fans? GILLIAN SPEAR: Oh, I'm a really big sports fan. JON STEWART: You are. Yeah. I know you like the Giants. So you know pain. San Francisco Giants, by the way. San Francisco. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I totally am. I'm a huge sports fan. JON STEWART: Yeah, no. Brittany's not. She's not having it. Have you guys been watching at all any of the World Cup stuff? Or your fandom hasn't moved into soccer yet? GILLIAN SPEAR: I always get so into the World Cup. I'm that cliché of somebody that's,

all of a sudden-- and every team, too. I'm like, this is my team. JON STEWART: Right. Cape Verde, I love these guys. It's awesome. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yes, exactly. JON STEWART: And also, it reminds you, coming off. of our Knicks experience-- and I know we all shared that. in the city-- but there is a mini-Knicks experience. to be had in the city all the time. when you go to these pubs that are showing Premier League. I'm not even talking about just World Cup.

You visit these other countries. GILLIAN SPEAR: The funniest is when the pubs around the city. too with the Premier League, it's like 8:00 AM and these. guys, they've had a couple. JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [LAUGHTER]. GILLIAN SPEAR: I'm convinced that's why they're watching. JON STEWART: They blame it on the time difference, but it's really not. GILLIAN SPEAR: You go to England, it's 8:00 AM. Very convenient. JON STEWART: No, they were there. And I love how Roger is just like, I'm a sad man. I'm an anxious man. I'm a nervous man.

But I love football. And then he just lights up. GILLIAN SPEAR: It makes him human, he says. JON STEWART: Yeah. GILLIAN SPEAR: And I love that they said, like, we need this. We really do. That's why I keep getting getting so misty watching. is, like--. JON STEWART: We do need it. Because when you think about just the the decadence, and corruption, and inequality, and the things spinning out. of control, and to have something like this that still. belongs to the people-- whoever owns it, whoever runs it,

it still belongs. And it reminds you of those moments. And I hate to, again, like, throw them on there, but it reminds you of Hungary tossing out Orban. It reminds you of the power that still. exists in the population. That's what I love. GILLIAN SPEAR: Collective. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It's the unity. JON STEWART: Yeah. Ta da. GILLIAN SPEAR: There's an ad that's. been running since, like, before the World Cup started--. I think it's Airbnb, and I think it's Claire Danes. that's doing the voice for it. But it's like "when the world meets.".

And it's like, you needed Jamaica. to bring their sound systems to England to make punk music. And before the World Cup, I saw that ad, and I was like, this is so out of touch. with, like, what's going on right now. And now, the commercial comes on. and I'm like, that's exactly right, Claire. JON STEWART: We do need that. Thank you, Claire Danes. Brittany, what do they want to know from us this week? What do we got? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: All righty. JON STEWART: What do they want? What do they want from us? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Jon, why are. soccer players so overly dramatic when they.

are knocked down or kicked? JON STEWART: It's an excellent question. I was a soccer player for many years. There is a layer underneath, when you play soccer, a layer of nerves that go through there. Do you remember the game operation? GILLIAN SPEAR: Yes. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I'm awful at it. JON STEWART: Where you put the thing in there--. and it doesn't seem like much. You have yourself a little-- you got a bone, and you're trying to put the funny bone.

into where the elbow is. And you think to yourself, well, I just touched that side. I didn't bang into it. I didn't hurt it. But what what happens? Ahh. Ahh. They're not faking. We have overly sensitive electrical impulses. that go-- my my favorite ones are. the ones where, like, clearly on the replay, like, not even touched. Like, they literally just decided, like, I didn't even touch the side, but it's time for me to do--.

I'm going to say three forward rolls and then go on my back. as though my lungs have come out of my body. GILLIAN SPEAR: It's funny, too, because sometimes they'll do it. and I'll be like, oh, my god. And then they'll show the replay and I'm like, I would be out of commission for six months. if this happened to me. Like, I get it. JON STEWART: Yeah. It is, I mean, overly dramatic, yes. But there are, as Gillian says, like, it's a very physical. game, especially the way they play it in, like,

Premier League and all that. Like, they're not playing the beautiful game of, like, Spain, and tiki taka, and possession. Like, they're running through people. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Which version was William & Mary? JON STEWART: I actually went to the hospital. one night after a game. We played Old Dominion down at ODU, down in Norfolk, Virginia. And it was on their field, night game, and both teams were very--. there was a heated rivalry there. There was a fight on the field in the middle of it.

And I was a forward. And one of their backs, I can't remember, it was a wing back. or center back, basically went through me on a contested. ball from the goalie. And I didn't think anything of it. And then after the game, I started pissing blood. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh, my god. JON STEWART: And, like, was in the hospital for a week. where, like, I couldn't move. Like--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Did you even get a free kick? JON STEWART: Oh, we certainly got a free kick off the play. And I finished out the game without even realizing it.

But, like--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh, my god. JON STEWART: They'll mash your organs. They will mash your organs is the point. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: That's insane. My back could never. JON STEWART: Oh. Mine couldn't either. Trust me. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. We're not built for the pitch. JON STEWART: It was a bad scene. But, boy, do I miss it. Boy, do I miss it. Old man glory days, for sure. What else they want? What else they want? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Jon, what advice would you. give pro golfers now that heckling is. showing up more on the course?

JON STEWART: It's a great question. You have clubs. [LAUGHTER]. And, let's be honest, let's be fair about this-- when you. talk about heckling showing up in the course-- in Long Island. Golf is played all over the world. The only place it shows up is somewhere outside of Syosset. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: It's only Massapequa that shows up. and it's like, hey, get in the fucking hole, you jackass.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It's so embarrassing, guys. JON STEWART: But there's nothing that I think--. and depending on the size of the heckler's head, that an iron or a wood. I mean, that's really what you have to do. You have to talk to the caddie and just say, is this the type of dude I could take with a putter? Or do I need to go for wood? GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. JON STEWART: So easy to take care of. Not a problem. GILLIAN SPEAR: That's it. JON STEWART: I can't tell you how much I enjoyed talking. about sports this time, and that I didn't have to read. any fucking books to do this. Normally, I have to read the books.

We're off on the next week. But how can they get in touch with us, these people? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Twitter. We are WeeklyShowPod. Instagram, Threads, TikTok, BlueSky, we. are WeeklyShowPodcast. And you can like, subscribe, and comment. on our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: Thanks, as always, to Producer Brittany. Mehmedovic, Producer Gillian Spear, Video Editor. and Engineer Rob Vitolo, Audio Editor and Engineer Nicole. Boyce, and our Executive ProduceRS. Chris McShane and Caity Gray. Very nice guys. And you have a great week off. I'll talk to you guys soon.

The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount. Audio and Busboy Productions. [MUSIC PLAYING].