Trump’s Peace Plan: Lessons from the Negotiating Table | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

ZAHA HASSAN: The way it's set up in this Trump plan. is that this peace board will oversee--. JON STEWART: Trump and Blair, Trump and Blair. ZAHA HASSAN: Trump and Blair will. oversee the international stabilization force. JON STEWART: Blair will apparently go door to door. He will-- do you have any guns? [LAUGHTER] Hello. Come on. DANIEL LEVY: Was that your attempt at an English accent? JON STEWART: It really was, sadly. ZAHA HASSAN: That was pretty good. JON STEWART: Oh, that's-- ZAHA HASSAN: Pretty good. JON STEWART: --very kind of you. DANIEL LEVY: We're gonna disagree again. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Hey, everybody, welcome once again to.

another Weekly Show podcast. My name is Jon Stewart and I will. be talking throughout this--. do they call it a broadcast? Podcast? I guess it's not a broadcast. It's more like a cassette tape that you pop in while you're. driving to Rochester or however it is that you. enjoy these types of things. It is Wednesday, October 15. This will probably air Thursday, so who knows what will happen. But for now, peace, peace, peace in the Middle East. There is the-- the ceasefire.

You know, there's been a lot talk about why? What happened? Was it the Israeli bombing in Qatar that sort of. knocked loose a couple of chains of event. that-- that brought this about? Was it Donald Trump, the great man of peace, that-- that went in and-- and brought warring factions. together, and finally bridged a gap that seemed unbridgeable? But there's one theory that hasn't been proffered yet. And I think it's one that needs to be considered. And I hate to even throw it out there,

but this agreement to end the bombing, to return the hostages, to bring. peace, happened, really on the heels. of the Riyadh Comedy Festival. And I just want to say, you know, perhaps--. and I know, look, correlation's not necessarily causation, but I don't think we can deny the proximity, the pro--. America's greatest mirth makers head.

into a region torn by strife. Boom, airline food set, boom, a couple of quick impressions. The next day, hey, can't we all just get along? Is that the power, ladies and gentlemen? I know the comics have taken just a lot of shit, but is that the power of the jester? And is it time to, you know, open up a Yuk Yuk's in Kyiv,

in Moscow, and bring those two factions together? Is it time to deploy Fluffy to the other areas. of strife in this world? Food for thought, ladies and gentlemen. Or maybe it was the petitions we all signed. I don't know. But anyway, we're actually gonna find out a much more. insightful reason for-- for what's. going on over there with our guests for this podcast.

And I'm just gonna get to them right now. So let's-- let's bring them out. [THEME MUSIC]. Ladies and gentlemen, in this changing moment of world peace, I want to talk to two people who. have great experience in this area, who've got. great insight in this area. Daniel Levy was President of the US Middle East Project. and former Israeli Peace Negotiator, and Zaha Hassan, Senior Fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International. Peace, and Former Coordinator and Senior Legal Advisor.

to the Palestinian negotiating team during Palestine's 2010. to 2012 bid for--. for UN membership. Thank you both very much for--. for joining us here today. I want to start very briefly, if I can, just. for the audience's sake, Daniel, if you could very quickly give a little bit. of your background cause it's going to come in handy later. You know, people are talking about this. being a moment not since Oslo. You had experience during, I know, Oslo, too.

What's your experience in terms of negotiating these types. of peace agreements? DANIEL LEVY: Well, I was working with the guys who. informally did the back channel of Oslo. when that breakthrough had just happened. I then do my military service as a Brit who moved. to Israel, a dual national. And in my military service, I'm on the negotiating team for the. Oslo B, so that's under Rabin. That is finished. I actually finished my military service, and three days later Rabin is assassinated.

And then later on, I take a political role with a leading. figure in the Labor Party. I then go into the prime minister's office. under Ehud Barak, and during the Taba talks, which is right at the end of the Clinton presidency. We have these talks which were considered to get really close, and I'm part of the negotiating team then. And then I do an informal, detailed accord called--. accord called Geneva. JON STEWART: OK, and so this-- your experience. is through the many different iterations of-- that they tried. to start, then restart, then Intifada,

then you have a good understanding about how. these things begin, how they gestate, and how they fall apart, unfortunately, oftentimes. And Zaha, your experience is as a lawyer. for Palestinian rights, is that correct? ZAHA HASSAN: Yeah, so I was brought in in 2010 after, you know, Obama had failed to really. get the negotiations that he wanted. to launch off the ground.

And that-- that failed because Palestinians. were looking for a--. a freeze on settlement construction. during negotiations. And Obama was pushing for that. And-- and we couldn't get that from Netanyahu, who was the prime minister at the time. So I came in because Palestinians wanted. to internationalize you know, the resolution to the quote, unquote, "conflict," and so seeking bilateral recognition--. sound familiar?

And seeking membership in the UN as a way--. for two reasons. First, you know, to sort of level the negotiating table. a bit, you know, so that Palestine can negotiate. as a sovereign state, you know, quote, unquote, "sovereign" again--. JON STEWART: Right. ZAHA HASSAN: --but also because Palestinians. wanted to access the International Criminal Court. And we were told by the--. the prosecutor of the ICC that in order to sign the Rome.

Statute, we'd have to get sign off from the UN. that Palestine was, in fact, a state. So it was for those two reasons that we pursued that. And I was a part of the team that. was trying to get states, particularly in Western. Europe, to--. to recognize Palestine and support Palestine in the UN. JON STEWART: Thank you. I say this because I want to give people who are listening. the understanding that this-- much like Taylor Swift's Eras.

Tour, there are various eras of these negotiations and various. international bodies that either cooperate. or don't cooperate or--. to give a sense of the stops and starts, even though the underlying conflict obviously. remains unsettled, this has been. going on for a very long time. DANIEL LEVY: But unlike the-- JON STEWART: Yeah. DANIEL LEVY: Unlike the Eras Tour, which I had the honor of seeing, all of those eras. are great. JON STEWART: All of those--.

DANIEL LEVY: None of these eras are very good at all. JON STEWART: No, none of these eras are very good at all. And I had absolutely outed you as a Swiftie from the. get go, Daniel. I knew that. DANIEL LEVY: --was gonna wear the T-shirt, but I was told it was inappropriate. JON STEWART: I understand. We have, obviously-- we don't want to get sued. So now let's turn to today and then. we'll use some of your background. from the history of it to turn in there. I cannot help but feel relief that at least the bomb--. the-- the incessant killing and-- and the hostages are out.

It's-- every petition I signed two years ago said, free the hostages, stop the bombing. That's been done. Are you both feeling--. forgetting about looking what's coming up next--. a sense of at least some relief? Daniel. DANIEL LEVY: Look, undoubtedly. JON STEWART: OK. DANIEL LEVY: The fact that there is not. killing, destruction, displacement, starvation of that intensity--.

Palestinians are still being killed, but we haven't. got those daily horrors--. that's huge. Those scenes of the 20 remaining living hostages, military-age males, being released, uniting with their families, I know. people who've worked with those families every day, hugely emotional. Seeing Palestinians come out of prisons, let's not forget, these people were put inside Israeli jails. by a military tribunal of an illegal military occupation. The fact that aid may get in, still. apparently being nickeled and dimed and not at the level.

necessary, that is all huge. The fact that we then look at this paper, this 20-point plan, and we say there's very little there there, it doesn't mention the West Bank once, et cetera, that is also something that we can't ignore because part. of the problems you already see on the ground are. a derivative of the greatest strength. and greatest weakness of this. JON STEWART: Right. DANIEL LEVY: And if I can say, what is that? It's Donald J. Trump. The greatest strength is he seems to be committed.

Therefore, the bar for Israel to violate this, to go back to attacking Palestinians in Gaza, that bar. is high, especially given all the ceremonials. But the greatest weakness is it carries. all the unseriousness of the imprimatur of Donald Trump. It doesn't have an actual path to peace. It's full of bombast. Trump is the head of this peace board. Tony Blair is on there. Where's the substance? JON STEWART: Right. The only two members, apparently,

of a Palestinian technocratic board. are Donald Trump and Tony Blair. Powerful. DANIEL LEVY: Dream team. JON STEWART: Dream team. DANIEL LEVY: Dream team. JON STEWART: Zaha, What's been your immediate impression? ZAHA HASSAN: Yeah, you know, I--. I had the same reaction as Daniel. I mean, I think about it on a human level. And-- and I look at my friends from-- from Gaza, and I look at colleagues, people that have been, you know, wanting to know that their family is gonna be safe. And of course, I'm celebrating with them, you know.

And I'm-- I'm happy with them. But at the same time, I'm very frightened because we've. seen this before. And my lawyer hat comes on and my analyst hat comes on. And then I look at the--. the terms that we're--. we're asked to believe are going. to produce something of a political horizon. for Palestinians. And I don't see that there, you know? I mean, we have the phase I. That's pretty clear. We've already seen a lot of implementation on that score.

Like Daniel said, there's been also. Palestinian killing going on, still. during that, but not the--. the bombardment that we've seen. And we've seen aid come in. So, you know, we celebrate that. But when you get to phase II of the agreement, that's when things fall apart and you start to see that--. that, you know, this transitional period. that's supposed to then lead to the political horizon. is incredibly problematic. And it looks like occupation by--.

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The Uplift V3 standing desk, work better, live healthier. Go to upliftdesk.com/weekly and use code WEEKLY for free. accessories, free shipping, free returns, and a 15-year warranty. That's upliftdesk.com/weekly, and use. code WEEKLY for a special offer exclusive to our audience. [THEME MUSIC]. So Zaha, talk to me about that because you. talk about that phase II. I think we're all--. and I hesitate to say that the Western media is somewhat.

sensationalist and perhaps attention deficit. disorder driven, and that we've all been taken in by the pomp. and circumstance of the announcements in the Knesset. and the scenes of the people, and haven't looked behind that. But when you talk about phase II and occupation. by another name, what is it, exactly within that? You know, this board that apparently-- you know, or Hamas.

will cede control to a technocratic board that. apparently doesn't have Palestinians on it, but has Donald Trump and Tony Blair. I don't see where we could go wrong there. What is this phase II? ZAHA HASSAN: Well, let's step back for just a second. because-- JON STEWART: Please. ZAHA HASSAN: --I mean, how did we get here? Right? How did we get to this Trump plan? What was the-- you know, what was the-- you know, what was going on? What's the context for it? You know, just ahead of this, we had this big UN conference, remember, this high-level conference,

and all of these states got together. and they started recognizing Palestine, these holdout states. Macron, Starmer, Australia, Canada, all these countries. were coming out. And they-- they had signed this New York Declaration, essentially committing to support. Palestinian self-determination. And that was because the International Court of Justice. said that Israel's occupation is illegal, that Palestinians have a right to self-determination, and that third states need to support them,

and that the territorial unit for Palestinian. self-determination is the occupied territories, including East Jerusalem. And so-- so that's where we were. All this momentum was being built around the notion, the world is going to support Palestine now, finally, you know, an end of occupation. And then we get this Trump plan. And that Trump plan essentially says, the problem. really isn't the occupation. The problem is, Palestinians are radical, you know,

and we need to clamp down on them. and figure out how we can reform. them so they could be worthy of actually governing themselves. And so what this plan says, essentially, is. that we're gonna have this--. this board, this peace board, where Trump is gonna lead us. And-- and, you know, he's going to make. all the decisions about what's gonna happen in Gaza. JON STEWART: Right. ZAHA HASSAN: And he's gonna make all the decisions.

about what, you know, Palestinian governance should. look like. But to start, Palestinians get to provide. services to themselves. So that's the Palestinian technocratic, apolitical committee that-- you know, that is going to be set up. We don't know who these people are. They're not gonna be elected. They're gonna be vetted by Trump. and whoever else is on this board. They're foreign actors, business people. And-- and then we're gonna have security provided. by some foreign actors that so far,

we don't see any Arab governments jumping into this. JON STEWART: Turkey, Egypt, and Qatar at some point. ZAHA HASSAN: Well, but most are saying, no, we don't want to have anything. to do with this if you don't have. Palestinians governing here. So-- so I mean, there's a-- you know, there's a lot of questions about whether any of this is--. is implementable. JON STEWART: Let's break that down because I think what Zaha. said gets to the heart of something. that I think is really interesting, which is Palestinian worthiness.

It's this idea that Israel gets to decide, or the world gets to decide, Palestinian worthiness. Daniel, you've been working on this for years. And it seems so often, within these negotiations, that there are these stipulations. Palestine has to hit these benchmarks. And if they can hit these benchmarks, they will be deemed worthy, and get, I guess, a-- a brown belt in governance, and can then move. on to have their own state.

But we've all seen how fragile this worthiness is, or this idea of worthiness. How does that figure into these types of negotiations, Daniel, in your experience? DANIEL LEVY: Your voice almost suggests that perhaps a bar. is being intentionally set--. JON STEWART: How dare you? DANIEL LEVY: --place the Palestine test. JON STEWART: How dare you? DANIEL LEVY: And that's--. so this is the thing. I've seen two styles of approach. One is the bulldozer approach.

We have the power. This is clearly a totally asymmetrical. conflict, an occupying state, an occupied people. Let's bulldoze this through and drive home things. that are patently not going to be. acceptable to the other side. If in a moment of weakness they sign, it's not going to be sustainable. So my argument, till I go blue in the face, is this doesn't get you anywhere, Israel, because if it doesn't have acceptance. on the other side, if it's not legitimate, it's not actually going to be something that the Palestinians. can embrace.

And you can never have security when. you run a regime of structural violence and apartheid. over another people. You can't actually sleep at night when you know that they. have absolute cause to--. I'm not saying break international law, do what was done on October 7-- but you're not. going to have that security. The other approach is to say, we. recognize the legitimate interest of the other party. We consider ourselves to have legitimate interests. How do you accommodate those things? And so often in this process, those fleeting moments,

when that second approach looked like it might break. through, it needed something. What did it need, Jon? It needed-- in this asymmetrical reality, it needed that outside power, that third party, which invariably has been monopolized by the US. It needed them to take the responsible approach and say, you know what? We have to level things up a bit. Israel, that approach is not gonna get you anywhere. And consistently, relentlessly, it's been the opposite approach.

until you reach the place that Trump. has tried to take this to. So we've been to this movie before. JON STEWART: But let me push back on that a second, because it speaks to a good faith that-- and maybe this. is my cynicism raising its ugly head, but it-- it seems as though placing those benchmarks. is purposeful not to get-- you know, if you talk about, well, Israel's not gonna get to where they want to be, it seems like they are.

There's a smaller and smaller footprint for Palestinians, even within a political framework. And let's talk about Oslo, too, for a moment. Rabin is seen as a-- a peacemaker. when he is, unfortunately assassinated. I can't remember if it was-- was it Perez. that was running in his stead? DANIEL LEVY: Yes. JON STEWART: So Perez is seen as a-- a dove, and Netanyahu is running against him. So the idea was, well, Perez was the dove. He's got all the wind at his back. because Rabin is a beloved figure.

He's just been assassinated. And what happens? Terrorist bombings. I can't remember if it was-- how many and how many days. It was a two-week period of terror bombings. Netanyahu, then, the Hawk, is elected. And we go back to brute force. And so it seems that these stipulations that. are put in place are so fragile and so. easily violated that are they really there in good faith?

Zaha, is that-- am I being too cynical here? ZAHA HASSAN: No, I think--. I think that's the cycle that we see. And you talk about the benchmarks. And thinking about the benchmarks that are embedded. in the Trump plan, I mean, what we see in the Trump plan is. a reference to the peace to prosperity Trump 2020 plan. and the benchmarks that were set for Palestinians in that, which basically said, you know, Israel gets.

to decide whether Palestinians have addressed incitement, whether Palestinians have, you know--. JON STEWART: Right. ZAHA HASSAN: --really reformed, and whether Palestinians have. dropped all the-- their cases for legal accountability. because that's--. that's a no no. You can't be a good Palestinian Authority. and be seeking accountability for war crimes. And so those are the benchmarks that Israel's looking for. and that Israel's being given, you know,

the authority to determine, whether Palestinians. have met them. And this, you know, again, it's-- it's-- it's like a--. a bad rerun because it's the same notion. Back-- if you think about what you were talking about after. the Second Intifada started, you know, what was the response by--. by George Bush? It was the-- the roadmap, which again, set benchmarks. for Palestinians to meet before they would qualify. for governing themselves. And there were also certain things the Israelis were.

supposed to do as well, right? Freeze settlements and-- and stop that--. those provocative actions. But somehow the Israeli benchmarks fell off the map. And the only thing that was-- you know, that was being. examined was whether or not Palestinians had--. had done their-- their part. DANIEL LEVY: It's this preposterous notion. that not only, in order to be worthy of the right. to self-determination, the right to not be occupied, the right to statehood, you need.

to meet these metrics of perfect governance, but even the right not to be bombed to smithereens, you need to meet these metrics. If that's the metrics to having a state, I got bad news for you, America, by the way--. JON STEWART: What? What? DANIEL LEVY: --if good governance--. if good governance is--. is the precondition. JON STEWART: Holy shit. This just got turned around on me. DANIEL LEVY: In the meantime, what has been going on. while those metrics were intentionally. set in a place, where the Palestinians were supposed not. to meet them, what has been going on.

is that Israel keeps taking Palestinian land. The Palestinian Bantustan keeps shrinking. JON STEWART: Right. DANIEL LEVY: And now we still have in this plan this notion. of Palestinian reform. But what kind of reform is it? It's a reform designed and owned. by the occupiers and their allies, not a reform that is owned by Palestinians. I think-- and I'm sure Zaha agrees with me--. Palestinian political renewal, reunification, rebuilding those institutions which.

haven't had elections for almost two. decades, that would be great. But it has to be on Palestinian terms. And the very idea that you can do confidence building. under relentless, structurally violent occupation is--. is patently absurd. JON STEWART: And look, we-- you know, when. America was occupying Iraq--. I mean, liberating. What did I say? Hold on. Let me go back. DANIEL LEVY: I--. JON STEWART: When we were greeted as liberators--.

DANIEL LEVY: Supported by the same Tony Blair who's--. JON STEWART: Oh, he was on our Committee of Peace. ZAHA HASSAN: There goes the rerun. JON STEWART: He was on our committee of peace. He's one of the ones who-- who had us go in there--. DANIEL LEVY: Yes. JON STEWART: --to we don't want a madman having the world's. most dangerous weapons. And yet, here we are in the United States with a madman. All right, fair enough. But the point being, we are the strongest. military that the world possibly has-- has ever seen. We were not able to meet the benchmarks the Palestinians are. asked to meet within our own occupation of Iraq,

in terms of suicide bombings or killings. Ultimately, what we used was a little thing called the surge. And the-- the surge to go into Iraq. and quell some of this violence was just. guys with, like, gold in suitcases, and going, how much is ISIS paying you? We'll pay you double. So I-- I want to ask this, Zaha first, and then Daniel. When these terms and conditions are being discussed,

whether it's in sort of the legal frameworks, Zaha, that-- that you maybe have more familiarity with, or Daniel, in terms of the governmental frameworks, how explicit is that idea of benchmarks in the room? Are people going, you know that this is going to incentivize. the worst actors to be able to submarine these frameworks, whether it be Hamas and suicide bombings.

or whether it be ultra right-wing nationalists. on Israel's part. How much of that is explicit? ZAHA HASSAN: I mean, that's the whole point, right? That's why these things are thrown into these kinds. of plans, is to-- they're--. they're poison pills meant to perpetuate the cover. that Israel needs to continue to colonize and to take land. and to dispossess.

I mean, everyone knows how conflict resolution works, you know. You need to bring the parties to the table. And you need to have a process by which there is--. and the objective is clear about what. you're working towards. And all parties have to be there, particularly. the ones that are armed. But in the case of Palestinians, it's like, you need to be the most perfect. opposing party for Israel. You need to completely submit in every way,

and not have any-- you know, not-- you know, be--. be in conflict with Israel, but yet. not be upsetting and-- and prone. to conflict at the same time--. JON STEWART: Right. ZAHA HASSAN: --for it to want to acknowledge you. And you know, this is not even something. that's hidden by Netanyahu. I mean, he has taken pride in the fact. that he has thwarted all negotiations just in this way, by separating, you know, the West Bank from the Gaza Strip, from creating this political fragmentation because, you.

know, it really was designed this way, where basically, the Palestinian Authority's. been told, if you--. If you have national reconciliation with Hamas, if you-- if you deal with this internal fragmentation. in the Palestinian body politic, you will have no--. you know, no role to play in negotiations. and you will have no support from. the international community.

And so that's-- that's how this has worked all these years. And that's what we have to get around and try to change. JON STEWART: But see, I understand. that when it comes to the incentives for the Israelis. What I don't understand is the incentives. for that for the Palestinians. I only understand it as incentivizing for more radical. factions within the Palestinian public, or maybe the other-- you know, they always say people are not. their governments or people are better than their governments.

But I guess then, for any agreement to that, are the Palestinians being just poorly represented, then? ZAHA HASSAN: Yes. [LAUGHTER]. We are poorly represented. JON STEWART: OK. ZAHA HASSAN: Palestinians are poorly represented. We haven't had elections in some time. If you're talking about the occupied Palestinian. territories, I mean, there haven't been. elections in many, many years. And, you know, people don't like the results. of Palestinian elections. And so, you know, there's no push to have them.

And-- and then if you think about the Palestine Liberation. Organization, which is supposed to represent Palestinians. everywhere, Palestinians and their legal claims, from '48. on down to present day, that-- that. has-- that institution hasn't been renewed in decades. as well. And it's very antiquated, doesn't. represent the people either. Yet it has this recognition by the international community. as being the interlocutor with Israel.

And-- and so there is a lot Palestinians. have to do to-- to renew their institutions. But again, the kinds of reform that we're hearing about being. imposed on Palestinians is not for democratic reform. and not to--. to rejuvenate their institutions, to make them more credible. It's-- it's to actually put the squeeze on these institutions. and make them really obsolete so that you can have.

a transitional body of foreign actors come in and take over. and-- and build smart cities and artificial. intelligence centers and--. and be a boondoggle for investors while the people. are-- are, you know, put--. put to the side. JON STEWART: So, Daniel, how do you change--. you've been in these negotiations. And we talk about incentives being too fragile so that, you know, for instance, for radicals. on the Palestinian side, it's very easy to submarine.

so that they know that they'll be met. with a force and resistance, and they. will continue to perpetuate. How do you change the incentive structure. in these negotiations? Or is the problem that the negotiations, in some respects, can't be between Israel and Palestine? They have to be between an international body that. separates the two combatants. Would that be the solution? DANIEL LEVY: Yeah, I mean, let's. understand something which follows on from what Zaha said.

Israel can assassinate Palestinian leaders. Israel can imprison Palestinian leaders. It's not a coincidence, who gets left out of prison. and alive and backed by Israel and the West. to run things in Ramallah. And I just think we have to acknowledge that. JON STEWART: Expand on that because I--. I don't understand what you're-- yeah. DANIEL LEVY: The current leadership--. the current leadership is very convenient.

It is highly ineffective. You-- you have been covering this. We've all been covering this for two years. How many times have you said, oh, wait, the Palestinian leader is about to give a speech from Ramallah? This is gonna be an incredibly charismatic, defining moment? He's been an onlooker. He is there. And maybe in his own way, he tries, but he is very convenient for Israel and for Israel's allies. And his narrative is convenient for them. And he-- and their leadership around him. seemed to have made the decision.

that with the US and everyone else so deeply marinated. in Israeli talking points, the best I can do. is try and be just a few degrees away. from those talking points, and then maybe I'll get something. That has patently failed. The alternative approach, which is what you were hinting. at, as a-- as a way of challenging Israel's attempt. to impose and force a solution that is not a solution. on the Palestinians--.

is to change that incentive structure. And this is something that I've been convinced. of for an awfully long time. There is one word that tells you. virtually everything you need to know about this conflict. That word is impunity. As long as Israel can do what it does, and is treated. with impunity that the Israeli public sees that it can get. away with this, why do you have an incentive inside Israel. to do anything different? Sure, some people may feel uncomfortable with it.

But then they say, we don't want a civil war. We know we've got some hotheads. No one else seems to be taking us to account. for what we're doing. So if you want to change this, I. don't even think your first question to ask is, who needs to be in the room? Is it Israelis? Palestinians? Does it need to be managed by a third party? First of all, you have to address. Israel's incentive structure. You have to address the impunity with which Israeli. relentless criminality-- and it pains. me that this is the case--.

the way that Israel's relentless criminality. is treated. JON STEWART: And by the way, this is not a radical view. This is-- I mean, we're talking about people like--. DANIEL LEVY: Exactly. JON STEWART: --like Ehud Barak has been speaking of this. There are people within Shin Bet that are speaking of this. This is not-- you know, there's a feeling sometimes. in the United States that the talk that you're saying. is, you know Is a radical position to take. This is taken by some very respected. actors within the country. DANIEL LEVY: They understand that unless there. is external pressure, Israel will not budge.

And I don't want to lose sight of the fact. that while everyone talks about Trump and he-- he. led this whole thing, Zaha hinted at it earlier. The other thing that was going on, which shifted the likelihood of Israel agreeing to something, was that pressure was beginning to mount. You saw the mass mobilization in many societies, pressuring their governments. You saw what was happening in the performing arts community. You saw a shift in the cultural zeitgeist.

Netanyahu started saying, whoa, isolation, economic autarchy, where you try and be. economically self-reliant. And that didn't play well in Israel. The lesson should be that if you want. to go from here to actually addressing the core issues, actually getting somewhere where. there can be meaningful negotiations, keep up the pressure. JON STEWART: There has to be consequence--. DANIEL LEVY: There has to--. JON STEWART: --somebody like Netanyahu. But that speaks to, you know, internal political dynamics. for someone like-- you know, people in Israel. have never gone wrong when they've turned to the right.

politically, when they've put more pressure on Palestinians. But let's shift the conversation for just one. second cause I think we understand, now the incentives within Israel. Let's talk about the incentives within the Arab world because I. think what I'm trying to get at is, who is incentivized. to end this conflict on behalf of the benefit. of the Palestinian people? Because from what I've seen over all these years, is that there seems to be no incentive. for normal, average Palestinians.

to get the kind of self-governance. and self-determination that they deserve. And there's-- there's Israel's political pressure is, both sides have this sort of fantasy that if they just keep. doing what they're doing, the other. side will magically disappear. And obviously, not happening. But the Arab governments, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, you know, UAE, Egypt, they. seem incentivized to let this conflict go on in the way--.

and the Palestinians to suffer in the way. that they do as well. And I want to talk a little bit about that, Zaha. What is your sense of that? ZAHA HASSAN: You know, I don't think--. I don't think that it's that they want. to see Palestinians suffer. I just-- I think that they want a stable region. They want to have their economic development. and regional integration. They see Israel could be very beneficial in that.

But at the same time, they can't warm relations. with Israel while they're seeing a genocide take place, or while, you know, they see Palestinians. being denied self-determination, and conflict everywhere. JON STEWART: But did they-- did they. help create those conditions? I guess what I'm saying is, did they use--. look, those governments are scared shitless of people. like Hezbollah and Hamas. And yet, they have helped facilitate those groups,

whether through proxy armies or things like that, to take heat off of their own abuses. I think my-- my point is, within those governments, they are autocracies, They, have. their own troubles at home. Have they not used fundamentalism. and fundamentalists to their own benefit, to remove pressure from themselves, and suddenly. they're left with a tiger they can't control?

Is that part of the problem as well? ZAHA HASSAN: I think that's-- that's part of the problem. And it's become-- you know, obviously, it's become unmanageable. But I think that what's--. what's shifted of late now is, you know, they're realizing, OK, now that the region has been neutralized thanks. to-- thanks to Israel's bombing pretty. much every country in the Middle. East at this point, and Iran--. JON STEWART: At least the ones we've heard of. ZAHA HASSAN: Yeah.

JON STEWART: I think Oman has escaped. So--. ZAHA HASSAN: Yeah, and Bahrain have-- have done well. But now they're seeing Qatar get bombed. And, you know, Qatar's supposed to be. a helpful ally in-- in trying to get. the hostages back, right? And-- and it's a place where we've got US forces. We've got CENTCOM there. JON STEWART: But they've played that double game. for many, many years. They've-- they've played that weird double game. ZAHA HASSAN: But I don't think it's--. I think there's a realization.

And I was with--. I was with a group of Saudi--. Saudi citizens when Qatar got bombed. And it was a huge wake-up call. It was-- you know, they--. they realized, you know, we got another problem. besides the Iran hegemon. Now we've got an Israeli hegemon. And we don't like this idea. So now it's not even about stability in the Middle. East or--. or playing off, you know, playing. off the fundamentalist--. [LAUGHS] --proxies anymore.

It's-- it's now hitting home very closely for them. And-- and that's why you saw so much momentum behind the UN. conference, because, you know, this was. an opportunity to-- to really put. some significant pressure on--. on Israel. And that's why you've seen Saudi Arabia join. with France in trying to encourage. states to recognize Palestine.

So I think, you know, but this Trump plan--. and we've talked about it and criticized. it and what have you--. JON STEWART: Mm-hmm. ZAHA HASSAN: --but it's the only game in town right now. This is the only mechanism we have. And so how do-- how do these governments in the region. And these European actors that-- that. are taking up the mantle. Now, how can they steer this in a way. that is rights respecting? And that's what I'm looking for. I mean, we're already starting to see some fraying.

at the edges here. You know, the Palestinian president. wasn't supposed to be in Sharm El-Sheikh. with all of those-- those regional actors. and-- and Europeans. But he was-- he was brought in by--. by the Arabs and others. JON STEWART: And Netanyahu was kept away. ZAHA HASSAN: And yeah, Netanyahu was kept away. JON STEWART: Nope. Daniel says, nope. He shook a finger. I saw a quick finger shake. DANIEL LEVY: There was a finger shake. There was a finger shake. JON STEWART: I think I saw that. DANIEL LEVY: Netanyahu apparently. got a last-minute invitation that possibly rescinded by some.

of those regional states. And he's claiming that he decided not to go because he. wouldn't have got home in time for the end of Sukkot. Jewish holiday to begin. I want to take issue a little bit with--. with what's being said-- JON STEWART: Please. DANIEL LEVY: --because I don't think that's how it's. playing out in the region now. And Zaha began to-- to touch on that. JON STEWART: Mm-hmm. DANIEL LEVY: However governments. have used this issue in the past, it has not gone down well with them, that for the last two.

years, their citizens, every day on these devices, have been watching these pictures. And so the-- the way those governments are now. looking at it-- and they're--. I think they're beginning to come to terms with, what do we do? And I'm not sure where they'll come out on that. The way they're looking at this is, this has become the number one most. radicalizing, destabilizing influence in the region. They do not want their publics to be watching those pictures. of a country that is an ally of their ally, those who.

are American allies, right? They don't want to-- because that leads to a whole set. of questions which they are not easily. going to be able to feel. They also look around and see that, as Zaha suggested, with the situation of Iran and the axis of resistance, their own mapping of their national security. now features Israel front and center. When Israel-- and I think this is partly. how we got to the ceasefire-- when Israel did that strike.

in Doha, in Qatar, a stone's throw from the largest. American military base in the region, they had to start questioning, and their publics were. questioning, what is the use of this security. relationship with the US? Does that mean they're gonna create an alliance which. deters or contains Israel? Way too early to say. It's not their modus operandi. The first thing they're doing is what we're saying. You test. What can we do with this relationship with Trump? He's here for the next three years. Look, this was America's war as much. as it was Israel's war, right?

With the flow of American weapons, the diplomatic, political, economic support. So it was America's war to stop. And Trump apparently stopped it in the end, something the Biden administration. didn't do for 15 months. And we have to also acknowledge that. JON STEWART: Mm-hmm. DANIEL LEVY: But then the question for them. becomes, what do you do next? And so one-- at the same time, I think now, they are looking, A, how do we manage. this relationship with Israel? You said something earlier, Jon, and I thought you were going somewhere else with it. You said, a madman with the most dangerous.

weapons in the world. I didn't think you were referring to Trump, but apparently you were. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: Who did you think I was referring to? DANIEL LEVY: Well, there is this nuclear-armed state. in the Middle East. And they have this guy who has been talking-- ah. Heaven forbid you should have been suggesting--. JON STEWART: Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes. No, I-- again, I agree. Yeah, I see what you're saying. DANIEL LEVY: So they're looking, how do we manage this new situation with Israel? How do we manage our equities with the US? And they're also looking at something else, which. is, geopolitics is shifting.

So while everyone showed up, kissed the ring, made nice with Trump in Sharm, most. of the countries in attendance there have. at least one eye on China. And they're hedging their bets for the geopolitical future. What I say to my Israeli friends is, you've created a situation where. you are more dependent on the US than ever at the same time. that your cause is more controversial in the US--. you see the polling numbers. You're familiar with this, Jon, how Israel.

is now thought of in the US--. and simultaneously where US power in the world. is on the decline, is diminishing. That is not a clever place to be if you're Israel. But unless and until they are called out on that, they will continue down what I consider. to be a path of self-harm, not just of. harm towards the Palestinians. JON STEWART: And I think that, you know, what you guys are describing is kind of a dynamic that I--. doesn't feel very recent. It feels like Arab leaders play the Arab street.

Look, this gets back to Arab Spring. There was no one that terrified the autocratic leaders. in that region more than their own people. And you saw that in Arab Spring, and leaders withdrawing, and some, like Mubarak and then Morsi, overturned, and a lot of things. that go on. So I'm curious, when we talk about these dynamics, unless we understand the dynamics, we can't understand the incentive structure. of how we change that region.

I'm gonna throw something out there that seems obvious to me, but it seems like a functional Palestinian state, independent. of Israel's strictures on what they have. to do to hit those benchmarks, an international Arab agreement. of-- a NATO-like agreement within the region, for Israel being attacked, and they will all join in there, would create the kind of stability.

that we're all talking about. It strikes me that the Arab governments are more afraid. of Hamas, in some respects, than they are. of some of these other-- and-- and those. images for their people--. than Israel. Or do you think they believe Netanyahu is also a madman, who. wants to take over the region? ZAHA HASSAN: I mean, I think if he-- if they didn't think. so before October 7--.

JON STEWART: They think so now? ZAHA HASSAN: Oh, yes, absolutely. I mean, like I said, I--. I see a marked shift in the way people. are talking about Israel in--. from the region. And--. JON STEWART: People or the governments? I mean, I want to separate-- that's what I'm trying to do, is separate the two. ZAHA HASSAN: No, government officials, the way they understand Israel, is very, very. different after October 7. JON STEWART: Prior to that, would you. have said that Arab governments would rather deal with Israel.

than people like Nasrallah and--. and Sinwar and-- and Hamas and Hezbollah? Cause that was my understanding. Maybe that's a misguided one. ZAHA HASSAN: I don't know if I would say that. I don't know if I would say that because I. think there was already a growing realization that--. that Israel is not ever going to make. peace with the Palestinians. And that's gonna ultimately be troublesome for the region. I mean, that's why the-- you know, the Trump 2020.

peace to prosperity plan fell flat, because people, governments, realized that there were--. there was never gonna be-- it was never. gonna be possible to have regional integration. with Israel so long as this issue remained between. the Palestinians and Israelis. JON STEWART: What about that rapprochement? So the rapprochement between Saudi Arabia and Israel, prior to October 7, because some have said that that attack. in itself was there to submarine that, was that not as much of a reality.

as we were led to believe? DANIEL LEVY: I mean, except, of course, it didn't happen. And much as team Biden tried to say, OK, what's the lowest. bar you can go to on some rhetorical head. fake towards the Palestinians, Saudi Arabia? However low they could take that bar, it was too high for Netanyahu and the Israelis. And so I think this is the shift that's happened. The shift that happened is, in the 1990s,

Israel got to yes with the Palestinians, with the PLO. The PLO said yes to a state on 22% of the historic land. And Israel ultimately chose not to go with that. 2002, the Arab Peace Initiative, then you have-- which-- which basically says, we will all recognize you. We will all have relations with you. if you withdraw from the occupied territories. and allow a Palestinian state. 20 years later, you even go further with normalization,

with the Abraham Accords. Israel got to yes with the Arab states. And Israel chose that it didn't want to go down that path. cause it wasn't capable--. I think this was a huge mistake, obviously--. it wasn't capable of accepting withdrawal, Palestinian statehood, de-occupation. And so the Arab states started scratching. their heads, then October 7, and then. the response to October 7. And you know what? I think there were-- and there's. no monolith here, right? The views on Hamas, you know, these are 22,

23 different states. Some of them, after October 7, were, I imagine, sitting there saying, I hope they teach Hamas a good lesson. and that this whole Hamas thing is done with. Fast forward a month, 6 months, 24 months, and they're scratching their head and saying, wait a minute, what Israel is this? We thought these guys, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir. were a marginal phenomenon. But the society seems to have mobilized around what,

you know, has been documented by UN commissions of inquiry. and elsewhere, as a genocide. Once you've manufactured consent. for genocidal actions inside a society, there's something fundamentally wrong. And then they see Israel's military actions. across the region. Then that extends to the Gulf. And so I-- I do think that you're now at a position where. they say, you know, partly as a consequence that Israel did, in-- in significant ways, degrade. Iran and the-- and that axis--.

that they are saying, how do we get control of Israel? And so I think they are looking at this and saying, can we get, this time around--. normally you have these ceremonies, you have these peace processes, and when the music stops, it's still the Palestinians who don't have a chair. JON STEWART: Right. DANIEL LEVY: It's still the Palestinians. who are left stateless. Can we change it this time around? But they are well aware--. and I've been speaking to them over the last few days,

people from the region involved in this. They are deeply pessimistic. They don't think this is a serious enough process. JON STEWART: Oh, really? DANIEL LEVY: They're not sure two states. is still possible because they see. the realities on the ground. And much as they're trying to push for this, they acknowledge that. JON STEWART: They say two states. is not possible because--. that Israel will not allow-- it's almost like you have two--. boy, this is a dark thought--. you have two groups that would like. to rid the world of the other. And I think it's hard to-- you know, when you look at the language from the leadership of Hamas.

and from some of the more right-wing elements in Israel, it's hard not to think that this is eliminationist in--. in belief. But you only have one side that's capable of doing it. And is that-- is that the issue? DANIEL LEVY: I'm gonna go somewhere. slightly different with this. JON STEWART: OK. DANIEL LEVY: I think we are in a painfully zero-sum moment,

but I also think there's something that's-- that's true. in many struggles. When you are the-- the weaker struggle, the weaker party, in an asymmetric struggle, you have. to understand the other side. OK? You have to-- you have to have a strategy that deeply. understands the other side. When you're the stronger party, you can be a bit dismissive. Oh, they're all Palestinians. They're all the same. We can crush them anyway. And I would argue that--. and this is in no way pretending away what happened.

That was appalling on October 7. But I think Hamas have a quite significant understanding. of Israel and the fact that this society, call. it settler colonial, call it what you like, is not going away. Rashid Khalidi, the Palestinian professor, has said, you can begin as a settler colonial community, but this is now a nation that is there. And it's not going anywhere. And so our challenge is, Palestinians.

aren't going anywhere. Israelis aren't going anywhere. If we peel back from zero sum--. and what I fear is, what has been. generated in Israeli society has taken. us further away from that. And somehow we have to pull that society back. from the brink, to be a place that can acknowledge. Palestinians again. And what has happened in the last few days. hasn't helped that because Trump, in his narrative, perhaps very unsurprisingly, he doesn't recognize Palestinians. He keeps posting on Truth Social and saying,

everyone loves this. And he talks about Arab states and Muslim states and Israel. He never mentions Palestinians. He kept meeting with the hostage families. And that's-- you know, they deserve that. They should have been embraced and had their arms. wrapped around them. But he's not dealt with Palestinians. He's not met with a survivor of what's gone on in Gaza. He's gone back and forth to the region twice now. He does not engage with Palestinians. Netanyahu gave that speech in the Knesset. when Trump was there. You know what word didn't pass his lips once? Palestinian.

So you can't be in denial of the existence. of the other side. ZAHA HASSAN: Well, he revoked his ability to travel. The-- the Palestinian president couldn't. travel, even to the UN. JON STEWART: Right, to go do that. They-- they took-- they took away their-- their visas. DANIEL LEVY: Yeah, Trump did that. Exactly. JON STEWART: Zaha, was there any--. you know, Trump and Abbas were both in Sharm El-Sheikh. Was there any, that you know of, conversation even between the two? Is he-- is there anyone that would be recognized, certainly.

by other international boards, to-- to lead the Palestinians? You know, would someone like Barghouti. be a person that could, you know, certainly unify the Palestinians, and maybe the international community and the US. would acknowledge him as well? What's your understanding of that? ZAHA HASSAN: I mean, he was on the list to-- to get. out in the prisoner exchange. DANIEL LEVY: Until he wasn't. JON STEWART: Barghouti was? ZAHA HASSAN: Barghouti was. And his name was removed by the Israelis, you know,

because of this very truth, that he could unite Hamas. and Fatah and-- and all of the factions, and possibly be a bridge from this moment. to a-- a political agreement. But, you know, we-- we will not know this because he's. not-- he's not out. But there are names that have been. floated ever since October 7, and discussions around. day after. And these people that they talk about are all business people. And those are the ones that have currency with the Trump.

administration, people that they think. they can make business deals with. and people that are apolitical. I mean, we saw that explicitly in the Trump plan. These people have to be apolitical. if they want to be, you know, engaged with in-- in Gaza's. day after. JON STEWART: Do you sense that as-- as being different, Zaha, that this used to be a political process? And it is. I agree with you. It seems more like a financial transaction, that they're.

looking at, you know, Gaza or the West Bank. as an op-- you know, they always. describe it as an opportunity. This is an opportunity, not for self-determination. and a free people that deserve independence and the right. to live without having to meet a list of 10, you know, precepts that have been set out. by the people occupying the land, but as, if we can get everybody to get along, we've got ourselves a really good opportunity.

ZAHA HASSAN: It's a much more cynical notion. now than it was in the past. In the past, they would frame it as, you know, economic peace. You know, we can't have political--. we can't have a political agreement. But let's-- let's focus on economic peace. And eventually that will lead to a-- a political solution. Now they're just saying, let's make some money, you know. Let's create this Gaza Riviera. We'll have an Elon Musk--. we'll have an Elon Musk area.

And we'll have, you know, we'll name this--. this area after this person. And-- and it's beachfront property. And I mean, you know, so it's become very--. JON STEWART: Gaza coin. They're gonna do a Gaza coin and-- and all these things. What-- you know, Daniel, having been in these negotiations, you've seen why they fall apart or why they're unrealistic. If you were to--. to give some advice there to, you know, the people that are about to execute this supposed 20-point.

plan, what are the minefields that you see that--. that they could-- they could bypass if there. really is a good faith--. a good-faith desire for Palestinians. to finally get that self-determined future. that they deserve? DANIEL LEVY: Look, sadly, it begins with probably rewriting. the plan, or at least filtering out the bits that.

can perhaps get you anywhere. I mean, the plan--. you know what the first four words of the plan. are-- five words? Gaza will be a de-radicalized zone. JON STEWART: Oh, Jesus. DANIEL LEVY: Wait a minute. In Israel, that's OK. There's no de-radicalization needed there. JON STEWART: You know what it sounds like? It sounds almost like--. I don't know how much you follow this, but what they're talking about for like, Harvard or wokeness. Like, they view ideas as something that you.

can wring out of people. Like even that, the idea that, you know, you can get rid of Hamas. But how do you get rid of resentment? How do you get rid of families that have been torn apart, that their houses have been--. their city blocks, their whole--. this idea that ideas can be bombed out of people, it seems like madness. DANIEL LEVY: Because-- because it is madness. And look, normally when something like this ends--. and yes, it's a huge achievement that this hopefully.

will end-- it's fragile. There's at least some acknowledgment. that there needs to be some accountability, right? Some very bad things have happened. There's an ICC arrest warrant--. JON STEWART: Sure. DANIEL LEVY: --against Netanyahu. JON STEWART: Yeah. Isn't that part of the plan, is to remove that, is it not? I think one of the--. DANIEL LEVY: So you go after-- JON STEWART: Right. DANIEL LEVY: --you go after the ICC. You don't go after accountability. And so--. JON STEWART: Oh--. DANIEL LEVY: You have to--. you have to get in--. and, you know, I don't think we're.

gonna see this move forward. In a way, we're probably worse off. if the plan moves forward because of the things. that are in there. What we want to do is take the ceasefire, I would say give Palestinians the space. to renew their politics on their terms, I would say keep up the pressure on Israel. JON STEWART: But that's-- that's a huge--. you know, give them the space. So that's the point, coming back. to what I was talking about earlier, how do we create the space in the world?

In my mind, the only way to do it is a demilitarized zone. manned by, not the United States and not. Israel and not Europe, by--. by Arab nations that the Palestinians. feel like they can trust. Otherwise, how do you do it? DANIEL LEVY: Yeah, so that may be one of the few things. that one could pick out that could be useful. There's this reference to an international. stabilization force. And Hamas have actually, in the talks,

spoken about-- they're not going to disarm, right? When you're still under occupation. you don't fully disarm. But Hamas could put some of the heavier weapons out of use. They could have non-display of weapons. You could have, if there were a trusted, accepted by Palestinians, force in there that was there. to protect Palestinians, right, to act as a tripwire. that Palestinians won't again be attacked, then you could begin to develop some of these things.

It's not actually rocket science. It's stuff that's been done elsewhere. JON STEWART: Is there a model that you've seen, that you thought, oh, this-- you know, is it-- is it Yugoslavia? Is it-- you know, is there a place--. ZAHA HASSAN: Northern Ireland is a perfect, I think, example. JON STEWART: Northern Ireland, that's a great one. That's a great one. Expound-- expound on that because to the Western ear, that's a much more understandable--. DANIEL LEVY: Mm-hmm. JON STEWART: --conflict and has tremendous similarities. to what we've seen. ZAHA HASSAN: Yeah, I mean, in that context,

you had the two sides, the loyalists and the IRA. They didn't-- they didn't just hand over their weapons. There was a political process that they were a part of. and other multilateral actors were a part of. And it was a phased approach over time. And there was civil society engagement. to help with the decommissioning of the weapons. and the storage of the weapons and monitoring. All of those steps, I mean, these-- these things. have been done in Northern Ireland,

but they've been done elsewhere as well. And we have mechanisms that can help. and-- to support these things. But for some reason, when it comes to Palestine, you're talking about multilateral mechanisms. If you're talking about international law, it goes out the window. I mean, the-- the way it's set up in the-- in this. Trump plan-- is that this board, this peace board, will oversee--. JON STEWART: Trump and Blair, Trump and Blair. ZAHA HASSAN: Trump and Blair will. oversee the international stabilization force. JON STEWART: Blair will apparently go door to door.

He will-- [LAUGHTER]. Do you have any guns? Hello? ZAHA HASSAN: Yeah. JON STEWART: Come on. DANIEL LEVY: Was that your attempt at an English accent? JON STEWART: It really was, sadly. ZAHA HASSAN: That was pretty good. JON STEWART: Oh--. ZAHA HASSAN: That's pretty good. JON STEWART: That's very kind of you. DANIEL LEVY: We're gonna disagree again. JON STEWART: Yeah, no. And by the way, Daniel, I believe you're right. Point to Daniel on that one. That was a terrible accent. Who would-- so the United States. is really the-- the stakeholder in-- in Israel. And it's-- it's clear that, like, if Netanyahu's gonna listen to anybody, it'll be the benefactor that gives all the weapons.

and-- and all those things. Is there a counter link to that for someone like Hamas? Is it Egypt? Turkey? Is it Qatar? You know, who would be the one that would. have that kind of authority? Because even now you're hearing reports, not only of. some killings, still from the Israelis in Gaza, but that Hamas is reasserting a control over citizens, violently as well. So they're-- they're again, trapped in that squeeze. Who-- who could be that--.

that force that could help facilitate what you're talking. about, Zaha, is more of that, you know, Northern. Ireland type peace process? ZAHA HASSAN: Yeah, I mean, it's-- it's these regional. actors Egypt, Jordan, Qatar. JON STEWART: Does Jordan have sway there, in your mind? ZAHA HASSAN: Well, as a part of a regional group, yes it would. And-- and you know, the thing is, it's not like these haven't been discussed with Hamas. and there hasn't been actual--.

an agreement signed between all the factions. Back in 2024, all the Palestinian factions got. together and they agreed on certain things, including that the two-state solution was the goal--. JON STEWART: Mm-hmm. ZAHA HASSAN: --and that the Palestinian Authority. would govern, and Hamas would not govern in Gaza. But what Hamas wanted in exchange for all of that was, they wanted to be a part of the PLO. They wanted to be a part of the political future of Palestine.

and be integrated within that body. And that was-- that was agreed on by Fatah and Hamas. and all of the Palestinian political factions, 12 of them. And that was never implemented. Why? Because there was so much push back about the notion. that there would be, you know, Palestinian. national reconciliation. And the actors, the donor countries, the US, were opposed to it. But that's really the only way you're gonna get this--.

you know, this cookie, you know, out of the way. I mean, it's gonna take-- it's gonna. take Palestinian national reconciliation. because if you don't have that, you will always have spoilers. You will always have somebody that's going to try to--. JON STEWART: Right. ZAHA HASSAN: --you know. JON STEWART: But doesn't every society? You know, this is where I think we get into that point. Think about it even within Israel. So no society is a monolith, but Rabin makes steps. towards this reconciliation.

He tries to bring together Israel, to try and have-- to try be the Sadat of, you know, for Israel in terms of a two-state solution. and bringing along Palestinian reconciliation. And he's killed by an ultra right-wing Israeli. He's not assassinated by a Palestinian. He's not assassinated by a Muslim fundamentalist. He's assassinated by an Israeli radical.

And since that time, who has gained the strength in Israel? It hasn't been the moderates. DANIEL LEVY: Well, look, one of the guys. who led those radical protests at that time, someone. who actually pulled the--. I think it was a Mercedes or something-- symbol of Rabin's. car just weeks before the assassination. and proudly displayed it is now the national security minister. in Israel, Itamar Ben-Gvir. So--. JON STEWART: Wow. DANIEL LEVY: So when I was working there in this stuff,

I'm not saying it was perfect. I'm not saying there was a golden era, but you had a peace camp. You had a center-left party at least vying for governance. You now have a political landscape. which runs from the extreme right to the center right. And when, in the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, a vote was put forward, a declarative vote, can we ever accept a Palestinian state? Not one single Zionist member of Knesset. voted that you can have a Palestinian state. That was just last year in July. That, the de-radicalization that's needed,

I don't think it means one gives up on Israeli society. Right? Israel is going to be part of a solution by definition. But it means you need to try the things. that you haven't tried before. And showing the Israelis that there's a different--. we've said this, but it's crucial--. that there's a different cost-benefit calculation, that it's not normal, it's not OK, and there it's not just about America. There's this mass mobilization of people. And, you know, those marches have been criticized.

I've been on those marches. And I'm not exactly hiding my Jewishness. Jewish people are saying, this is not good for us, this is not where our future well-being lies. JON STEWART: Right. DANIEL LEVY: I think one has to hold up a mirror. and say, this isn't OK, this isn't normal, you can't carry on with this, and we're doing you a favor. by telling you this. Exceptionalism has been-- and impunity have been. the handmaidens to extremism.

Reverse that and so many things that look impossible today. suddenly might become possible. JON STEWART: Perhaps-- you know what? I think that's-- that's a really good point. But it's hard to imagine that Israel turns in that--. in that direction, given, as you said, the incentives that have come out of it previously, that, you know, if anything, I would say--. and Zaha, maybe you can speak to this--. that even for Arabs or Palestinians. that live within Israel, I would think.

it's gonna turn differently. I-- you know, I look at the United States, right, and, you know, this experiment in multiculturalism and all. these other things, and, you know, we all try and manage. that as best we can. But murders by people who are in the country illegally. have sparked $150 billion new, you know, force that is going through, into cities, and dragging people out. Is the fear that Israel turns more towards that future,

that even the Arabs and Palestinians-- because the idea. that they can remain democratic and still remain a Jewish state. seems not likely either. ZAHA HASSAN: You know, I think it's very true that it's. hard to imagine Israeli society making. a shift in another direction right now. But I agree with Daniel. You know, it's gotten there because it's. been emboldened, this-- the right has been. so emboldened over so long.

But what do Israelis really need. and what do they really value more than anything? Is knowing that they have the US support behind them. JON STEWART: Do you think that's still true, Zaha? ZAHA HASSAN: I think it is. I think, you know, if you see how popular Trump is in Israel, why is he so popular? Because they feel-- they trust him more than. they trust Netanyahu. He actually delivered the release of the hostages. for them. And they see that he is willing to have.

their back at all times. What if the US said, I will have your back, but I need you to do this and this and this, and you have to, or I'm going to withdraw this? I think that would-- that would begin. to change the way Israelis understand. their future as well. JON STEWART: Does he have a part--. do you think Trump has a partner. in the Arab world that could be considered. a counterpart to that? Could it be bin Salman? Could-- could it be-- you know, who would. be that-- that counterpart?

Or would that have to be a coalition? And is the idea then, to create that, to create a type of, I'd. say, NATO-like coalition within that, that can impose that from-- you know, from the outside there? Because if we're talking about it in the sense of, look, the only force powerful enough. to get Israel to do that is maybe Trump and America, would the counter, you know, part be--.

be present as well? ZAHA HASSAN: I mean, to me, what's-- what's missing. in the equation is, how do you get. the United States to want to--. to take those kinds of actions with Israel? And I think in that, if that's the question, then I would say, with this president, right now--. JON STEWART: Right. ZAHA HASSAN: --Saudi Arabia has--. has a big role to play because we know, especially. in the last few days, how important it is for Trump to be. the peacemaker and to feel like he's worthy of a--.

of a Nobel Prize. It's huge for him. JON STEWART: I mean, Kissinger got one. So how worthy do you really--. DANIEL LEVY: Exactly. JON STEWART: How worthy do you really have to be? ZAHA HASSAN: I mean, you know, I mean, but this is where we are right now. This is where we are, you know. And it's-- that's the path, I think they--. JON STEWART: Holy shit. Peace In the Middle East. If the Nobel committee could just go in and have. a little list, and say, you do this and it's yours, in fact, it's yours for the next five years, and-- and that list is there, that could do it.

ZAHA HASSAN: I don't know. I don't know. JON STEWART: Yeah. ZAHA HASSAN: But I think--. I think Trump does really value his partners in the Gulf. and in particular, Saudi Arabia. And he does see Saudi Arabia as being sort of the crown. jewel of normalization still, and actually. no different than the Biden administration. as well on this score. But for-- for Trump, there's a lot of-- there's. a lot of ego at play here. JON STEWART: Right.

ZAHA HASSAN: And-- and how do you operationalize that. in a way that actually could get you, you know, a permanent peace? I don't-- I don't think it's gonna take--. I mean, it's not something that's gonna happen. in-- in the next few years. This is-- to construct a new incentive. structure for Israel's gonna take a lot more time. JON STEWART: Right. So you think Trump 2028 is still gonna be--. That's-- DANIEL LEVY: 2032. JON STEWART: I think it's gotta be Trump 2032, is-- is really. when that's gonna go up.

You know, it is funny that you mention, though, Trump is not hamstrung, in the way that the Biden. administration was, by pretending. that they were disturbed by human rights violations. You know, the Biden administration. always had to pretend, oh, these guys, you know, they're bad guys. And then they'd go to Saudi Arabia and give a fist bump. and act like, well, we're gonna try and work--. Trump is much more tr-- and in some ways, I think you. appreciate the more honest--. the more honest approach, which is, yeah, we work with these guys.

And they do shit and we do shit. And that's just kinda how the world works. ZAHA HASSAN: Well, the honesty was on full display. in the Knesset, right? JON STEWART: Yes. ZAHA HASSAN: Miriam Adelson, my friend! [LAUGHS] JON STEWART: Right. DANIEL LEVY: But also, let's-- let's also. acknowledge that they did something which is so obvious. They got in the room with Hamas. They talked to Hamas, something the Biden folks didn't do. That's not-- I mean, you know, we constantly say these, oh, these guys are diplomatic neophytes. and the smart diplomats of the Biden administration, they didn't do the thing that was most obvious.

JON STEWART: Mm-hmm. DANIEL LEVY: However, we're having this conversation. as if the-- some of the normal rules of American politics. on this issue don't apply. And they do apply, unfortunately. You know, I don't know if Trump, with his relations. in the region, with his relations in the Gulf, elsewhere, can be brought to a place where he says, oh, OK, is that what's needed? Forget the peace, if that's what's needed for a prize, OK, I'll try and do that. There will still be the Trump whisperers. There will still be those who can get in the room with him.

There will still be the evangelical dispensationalist. lobby, pushing in a different direction. There will still be the neocons. So one has to get past an awful lot. And I think we're--. we're actually helped if we understand that this. is about building blocks. This is about going on a journey. I wish I could tell you that we can finish this in short order. But that process of generating leverage, of generating.

a different incentive structure, of challenging impunity, of Israeli society changing, of rebuilding Palestinian politic--. politics-- of changing those dynamics in America--. Europe, by the way, we haven't talked about it, but the three T's, Israel's Trade, Tourism and participation in Tournaments is through Europe. And there's that public pressure. Those things-- I'm not trying to be a downer. Quite the opposite. One can build those things. Those things are achievable. And that's what will get you on a path. to something that finally does right by Israel,

acknowledges Palestinian rights, achieves those rights, and sets you on a path. JON STEWART: Daniel, that's a wonderful summation. of everything that goes along. And I have to say, and as-- as pessimistic as I've. been about it and as cynical as I've been about it, it is the most hopeful sentiment about that, that I think I've heard. And I'll give you the last word, Zaha, because what I heard from Daniel, and I think I believe it as well, which is, as dark as it.

is, this is the first opportunity moment that I've. seen in a very long time. And if that-- if that small crease of opportunity. can be opened, maybe there is something really positive. that could happen here. What do you think? ZAHA HASSAN: No, I--. I totally agree with that sentiment. And I think, look, we-- we saw it--. we saw it in the beginnings of some real momentum earlier. this September.

And international civil society has done things. that we have never seen before in terms. of the global solidarity marches, the flotilla that went to--. to try to break the siege on Gaza. and deliver humanitarian aid, the ways in which, you know, we're seeing countries now finally talk about sanctions. and actually start to implement sanctions and divestment. We're seeing countries like Norway divesting. their sovereign funds. So there's a lot happening, these building blocks and--.

that Daniel's talking about--. JON STEWART: Right. ZAHA HASSAN: It's not happening fast. enough for any of our liking. It's not happening fast enough for people in Gaza. or in the West Bank. But it is happening. And I think we should-- we should build on that. and continue to push for that. JON STEWART: And maybe this moment. helps, maybe bypass the long process of those other pressure. points that you're talking about. by creating the space for more profound change.

in just this moment--. perhaps. DANIEL LEVY: Agreed. JON STEWART: Yes! ZAHA HASSAN: Absolutely. JON STEWART: Come on! Look at us! We've done it. Guys, I so appreciate your time and-- and helping me. with-- with a much more nuanced understanding of a region. that, you know, is-- is oftentimes, you know, impenetrable to me. So-- so thank you both for your insights and your time. Daniel Levy, President of the US Middle East Project, former Israeli peace negotiator.

Zaha Hassan, a Senior Fellow at the Carnegie Endowment. for International Peace and former Coordinator and Senior. Legal Advisor to the Palestinian. negotiating team during the 2010-2012. bid for UN membership. Guys, thank you so much for being here. ZAHA HASSAN: Thank you. DANIEL LEVY: Thank you, Jon. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Boy, am I appreciative of people. with real knowledge of--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: No, I liked your take, Jon, that the incentive we've been needing. is an American president fixated.

on the Nobel Peace Prize. I mean, I think--. I mean, it's a cash prize, so. GILLIAN SPEAR: I can't imagine being them. and watching this, like, episode play out. over and over again over time. But I really appreciated their insights into how. this is just the first step. And there's lots more to come. JON STEWART: And I have to say, the one thing that both--. in-- in all the different ways that they laid out all. the kinds of little minefields and setbacks. that could occur on there, they both seemed like--.

and I know credit where credit's due--. but in this moment, there does seem to be more opportunity--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Mm-hmm. JON STEWART: --than in the past. And in some ways, maybe is because they're. viewing it outside of the paradigm of Oslo. and Oslo II and Taba. Like, maybe it is time to just, like, tear all that shit up and go, like, here's what we're doing. GILLIAN SPEAR: It is weird to be in this moment. where we watched Biden not accomplish this,

and now that we're here and Trump has these relations. with the Arab world, and we're in this tumultuous moment. in the international stage, and all. of these people giving into Trump, I think there's this weird--. I don't know-- perfect storm of things, that there's weirdly hope. JON STEWART: Maybe that is how you're supposed to do things. Maybe it's all just a series of like, kind of mafia moves, like, hey, let me tell you something. Here's what we're gonna do. You're gonna stop your fucking bombing, and you're gonna let these people go,

or I'm gonna come in there and I'm gonna fucking--. you're not gonna have a moment's peace. Like, maybe that is the way. 'Cause it's not. just Biden didn't get it done. Obama didn't get it done. Bush didn't get-- nobody got it done. And by the way, I don't want to-- you know, he's a master at the proclamation. But it is significant. It is not nothing that the bombing has stopped. and that the hostages are released. Like, that's not nothing. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah, it's not only not nothing. It's fantastic and a reason to be hopeful.

So, yeah. JON STEWART: A reason to be hopeful. You know, Gillian, it's interesting you bring that. up because that's the title. You know, I-- I journal every--. I journal every day. And-- and my journal--. GILLIAN SPEAR: I'd like to see those entries. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: It's-- it's entitled, A Reason to be Hopeful. How-- here's what I love about that conversation, too. Like, two experts in the Middle East, they've lived through failed peace agreements. They've lived through these types of things. And I'm the most pessimistic one. I'm like, the most cynical one. They're like, well, I wouldn't go that far.

GILLIAN SPEAR: Well, they have to have optimism. This is their work. What's the point if they don't believe in it? JON STEWART: Right. And both have been at it for decades. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yes. JON STEWART: And-- but it does seem like a moment where maybe. there is an international consensus that can be forming. that puts pressure on--. on this situation to finally create the conditions. for the occupation to end, for independence. to flourish, for self-determination,

and for everything else. And I'm sure--. I'm sure our viewers have wonderful questions about it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Related? JON STEWART: No, probably not. I would-- I wouldn't think so. Brittany, I don't even know. Like, as you-- as you siphon through those, I have no idea what-- BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: The ones that you leave out must be--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah, I mean, last week--. this is a personal thing-- but there were a couple of comments. that I look like Karoline Leavitt, the press secretary, and I did not appreciate those.

JON STEWART: What? That's literally somebody just looking at the screen. and going, like, I think her hair is blonde. And I think that lady's hair is blonde, so [VOCALIZES]. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah, so I'd appreciate those stopping. They're like, is that a woman? OK. JON STEWART: Brittany, by the way, for those at home, may be the nicest person we've ever met. Like--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: That's very sweet. GILLIAN SPEAR: We call her the Karoline Leavitt of the--. JON STEWART: Right. Like, as far as you could ever say that, I can't even begin to describe how off base.

that-- that whole thing is. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I need to clip this out for my family. JON STEWART: Clip it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: All right, Jon. JON STEWART: Yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Let's hit it. Jon, who do you think is to blame. for this government shutdown? JON STEWART: The Riyadh Comedy Festival. There is no question in my mind, if they hadn't have gone over there, done a 10-minute set on poor-quality hummus, that we wouldn't--.

who is responsible for the government shutdown? I'm gonna go with the founders, who came up. with this fucking fakakta, overly. complex, bureaucratic web of nonsense. that it takes to get anything done. And I think it's very difficult when one political party. that represents 75 million voters has zero. say, authority, heft. And in a functioning political environment.

that isn't a zero-sum game, there. would have been conversations up until now that. took some consideration, some. I'm not saying a lot. I'm not saying, like, they don't still. get the shitty little offices and don't get to use the, you know, the Senate steam room except when. Schumer's in their towelless--. [LAUGHTER]. --but some consideration that those 75 million people. should have a scintilla of representation.

in the federal budget. So that--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Seems reasonable. JON STEWART: Thank you, Gillian. Thank you. So yeah, once again, fuck you, James Madison. Boom. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Every day. GILLIAN SPEAR: You're always saying that. JON STEWART: Every episode should end with that. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Our new slogan. JON STEWART: Thanks so much for watching. Thanks so much for listening. Fuck you, James Madison. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Cue the music. JON STEWART: (SINGING) Dah, dah,

dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. (SPEAKING) All right, what else you got? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: When Trump insults a reporter, do you think they should insult him back? JON STEWART: Ooh. Do, like, a rap battle, like the dozens, like, tell that to your cankles, hey, you know. You can remove me like you can't remove. excess fluid, subcutaneously. Boom. GILLIAN SPEAR: Roasted. JON STEWART: Roasted. I mean, that's what Pam Bondi did. Like, she went to a-- basically a hearing.

with just, like, a roast-- like, each-- each person on the dais had roasts. And they'd be like, hey, why did they move Ghislaine Maxwell. to, like, a prison that you would never do a-- you know, a sex offender. And she's like, I don't know. Why are you so fucking bald? [LAUGHTER]. How about that? How about that? Boom. I mean, it's certainly where it's all going, isn't it? GILLIAN SPEAR: I think it didn't work.

out too well for Terry Moran. JON STEWART: But he didn't even--. like, I think that was, like, a tweet. GILLIAN SPEAR: He called someone a hater. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I want to see a real burn. Like, I want to hear them be like-- and follow up--. are you a little baby? JON STEWART: Oh, are you gonna cry? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I think Kaitlan Collins has it in her. JON STEWART: Kaitlan Collins is the only one. I actually think she's the only one that even they aren't. quite sure what to do with. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. JON STEWART: Because his usual--. because she's always just like, matter of fact, like, because you did say, 2 and 1/2 weeks ago, and I think. I've got the quote right here. And they're all like, why are you doing homework?

Why are you trying to make us all look bad? GILLIAN SPEAR: Is this witchcraft? JON STEWART: What are you-- I don't understand. You-- you're collecting facts? And then you're gonna say them back at me, live? Unacceptable. It would be cool, though, to see that. Like-- GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. JON STEWART: --just a bunch of-- the thing. just deteriorates into. Although they're also changing the format so that there's. a bunch of people, like, even within the questions, who. will be like, Mr. President, why are you so awesome? And, you know, still, like, 79, and you.

seem to still be growing. How do you do that? Nonsense. Brittany, how can they get us their thoughts and questions? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Twitter, we are weeklyshowpod. Instagram, Threads, TikTok, Bluesky, we. are weeklyshowpodcast. And you can like, subscribe, and comment. on our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: Word word. And because of the conversation with the generous Professor. Hinton, I'm afraid to go online now. So for those of you at home who--. who wanna do that and go to those sites and send us stuff,

God bless you because I'm--. I'm deadly-- I'm deadly afraid of it now. Thank you guys again very much, lead producer Lauren Walker, Producer Brittany Mehmedovic, Producer Gillian Spear, video editor and engineer Rob Vitolo, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, and our executive producers Chris McShane and Caity Gray. We shall see you guys on the next Weekly Show Podcast. Thanks for listening. Bye bye. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount.

Audio and Busboy Productions. [THEME MUSIC].