Trump’s New World Disorder with Adam Tooze and Ivan Krastev | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

JON STEWART: Trump views, though, the EU as being-- having been created. to hurt the United States. I mean, he-- he already views it. in a kind of very aggressive--. I don't think he views it as allied with the United States. in that way. IVAN KRASTEV: No, but also in a certain way, he view as hostile everything that he does not understand. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. IVAN KRASTEV: No, but it's true. JON STEWART: Like dogs. [THEME MUSIC]. Hey, everybody, welcome to The Weekly Show Podcast.

My name is Jon Stewart. I'm the host of The Weekly Show Podcast. And we are here during exciting times. It is January 20. I think this is coming out on the 21st, which is the day that Trump lands in Europe--. reverse Mayflower. He's getting on the-- probably not boat--. I would say nuclear power submarine-- and landing. at Davos to tell them which parts of Europe he would like, the Whitman sampler of all that Europe has to offer. and what he would be putting in his rucksack.

and taking back to the United States. We're actually talking to two really just fascinating, I think, experts on-- on Europe and the political scene there. and as it relates to America. We go through a myriad of ideas in terms of, is there an actual strategy behind the dismantling. of the Atlantic alliances and maybe. moving away from this whole--. I don't know what you would call it-- liberal democracy. model, which is so, so been an albatross around America's neck.

for so long. So we're going to get to Adam Tooze and Ivan Krastev. [THEME MUSIC]. We're-- we're jumping right in today, guys. We're, as I've always promised on this podcast, we are nothing if not reacting to the day's news, even though we only have it once a week. We are here in a-- in an astonishing moment in history. We have Ivan Krastev, who is the chairman,

Center for Liberal Strategies, located in Bulgaria-- also, by the way, founding board member of the European Council. on Foreign Relations, which may come in handy right. around now when-- when we're looking. to formally relate to the EU--. and also, our good friend, Adam Tooze. You obviously know his-- his Chartbook Substack. But what you may not know is-- and by the way, gentlemen, welcome. IVAN KRASTEV: Well, thank you for having us. JON STEWART: I don't want to jump in with the excitement--. but my god!

Adam, you're in Davos. ADAM TOOZE: Yeah. JON STEWART: And you just had a panel. Tell-- tell us a little bit, as we get started, on your panel. that you held in Davos. And then we can talk about what the breakfast, what the continental breakfast is. there, the types of pastries. But-- but tell us about this panel. ADAM TOOZE: The dark secret of Davos is the catering sucks. So-- JON STEWART: What? ADAM TOOZE: Yeah. It is-- it is not-- it is not the honeypot. that you were promised. It is brutal. JON STEWART: That is stunning. ADAM TOOZE: It is brutal.

It was brutal. This is-- this is the sensational piece of. information in this podcast. JON STEWART: That's going to get picked up, Adam. That's getting picked up. ADAM TOOZE: You do not come here for the-- the-- the. luxury entertaining. JON STEWART: I would have thought. hot and cold running muesli. Am I wrong? ADAM TOOZE: Yeah, well, that would be-- yeah. But it's all-- and all day long. Yeah, the whole-- the whole forum is overshadowed by--. by Greenland and-- and-- well, just Trump, in general. If hadn't been Greenland, it would have been the Fed. And if it hadn't been the Fed, it would have been Venezuela.

But because the forum, though it is a global organization, has its heart beating in Europe, this really comes home here. And we're just waiting as a series. build ups for Trump's promised arrival tomorrow afternoon--. God knows when. The whole place will be in chaos all day long. But we've had Bessent. I had Lutnick. We've had Macron, the Chinese vice premier. We've had von der Leyen. JON STEWART: Am I wrong to think Macron was sporting. what appeared to be Tom Cruise aviators while giving a speech?

ADAM TOOZE: The gossip is that he was high as a kite, to be absolutely honest. And he came across that way. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. ADAM TOOZE: I mean, he was jolly. It was a dis-inhibited speech. JON STEWART: As he was speaking, I could actually hear faintly, (SINGING). highway to the danger zone. ADAM TOOZE: It was crazy. He made a-- he made a reference to dick size. as whether or not this was going to be-- like, this was driving it. He--. JON STEWART: A Danish MP told the American president. in language he thought he might understand, fuck off.

He told him to fuck off. ADAM TOOZE: As well. So then I had the pleasure, it turned out, of hosting Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary. and his embarrassed analogs, Rachel. Reeves, who's the UK Treasury Secretary, and Minister Champagne of--. of Canada. Mark Carney was speaking and apparently gave. like-- he just flamed the Americans. while we were on the panel. JON STEWART: Stemwinder, baby, stemwinder. ADAM TOOZE: And then we had CEO of Bank of America and CEO.

of Ernst & Young to kind of give. us the business perspective. And I mean, I love doing this kind of, like, high-wire chairing-- is-- is--. I don't need to tell you. It has its own fascination, its own dynamic energy. JON STEWART: Yes. ADAM TOOZE: And we were briefed to wind things up a little bit. We were told not to play things down. So-- so I didn't. And I just asked-- bluntly asked, like, essentially--. JON STEWART: You bluntly asked about Greenland. You-- you went straight Greenland.

ADAM TOOZE: Well, I mean, I-- well, he set himself up. Because he came into the green room, like, boasting about all the money he was mobilizing. So I was, like, quizzing him a bit. And at some point, he literally said, you got to understand, when it comes down to it, I am, quote, "The Hammer.". Like, it's like some-- you know, some ambulance chaser advertising. on the New York subway. JON STEWART: He referred to himself--. ADAM TOOZE: As The Hammer. JON STEWART: As The Hammer. ADAM TOOZE: Yeah. So gift to moderator, Mr. Commerce. Secretary-- on the one hand, I hear all the ebullient energy.

And then I hear this note of menace. How would you anticipate Europeans, who are not. fundamentally differently wired than you, reacting to this kind of mixture? That didn't go very well. And he went off down his track. And then I brought him back. And he just point blank refuses to answer. questions about Greenland and about the Fed. Can I bring you back to Greenland? HOWARD LUTNICK: No. It's unnecessary. It's-- it's-- the Western hemisphere.

is vital for the United States of America. Our national security people are on it. And they care about it. And I'm going to leave it to them. to address with our allies, with our friends, and with everyone how they work it out. But the Western hemisphere matters to the United. States of America. And the United States of America, as I've just articulated, really, really matters to the world. When America shines, the world shines, because they all need to make sure America. is strong and powerful to take care of them, God forbid.

And so I think America and the Western hemisphere. are vital to America. And I'm going to leave that to my national security people. to address. ADAM TOOZE: Right. It was as brutal a kind of pulling down the--. the roller blinds as I've seen on a panel like this. It's very unusual. Because it lays you open, right, doesn't it? It's not really-- the more sophisticated way. of just absorbing it would have been to roll with the hit. and to give some kind of spiel. JON STEWART: No, he shuts it down. You know, it's incredible for someone.

to refer to themselves as The Hammer, and then be presented with nails, and say, oh, no, no, no, that's what other people do. What I saw from Lutnick was, no, no, no, that's not my--. I defer to my colleagues in the, you know, international departments. Now, Ivan, I want to bring you in here. You've been observing this for years. You are the author of the book, After Europe. I'm assuming you are working as we. speak on After America, the sequel to-- to After Europe.

As you watched-- I'm assuming you did--. some of Adam's panel in Davos and some of the other--. how much of this did you anticipate. as being the kind of underlying cleavage point between America, and the EU, and the world order of the past 80 years? And-- and is this a crystallizing. of a moment you foresaw? IVAN KRASTEV: Yeah, listen, I do. [INAUDIBLE] that it's a moment which it's not easy to forget.

From this point of view, by the way, it's very interesting. If you see West Europeans and East Europeans, how we're reacting to this, I do. believe West Europeans are shocked. because they don't understand what Trump is doing. And East Europeans, we're scared because we do. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. Brilliant, sir. IVAN KRASTEV: Because we have seen this before. In a certain way, this is a revolutionary moment. And he basically going-- he's overtaken, to be honest. The problem with the revolutions. is that you cannot run them.

They are running you. So at some point, you don't know what you are doing. Because the speed is overtaking you. You start to radicalizing. If you are going to ask him, probably three. months ago, how important Greenland was, he was not going to tell you. But now he cannot stop. And here, in my view, is the interesting story. Because Europeans-- and this is where I do. believe Trump totally misread Europe. He said that Europe is weak, and this is true. But Europe is so weak that we cannot cave up. This is the paradox. JON STEWART: Why now?

Why do you say that? IVAN KRASTEV: Yeah. Because listen, Europeans now is--. when it comes to Greenland, this is very much. facing your own societies. Because of course, he could have get-- to be honest, he has been gotten Greenland if he. was quiet, if he takes time, if he was talking to the Danish. The paradox is that--. JON STEWART: I'm sorry. Are we discussing Donald Trump still? If he was quiet and conciliatory. IVAN KRASTEV: But exactly. But he cannot do this. Because in a certain way-- this is a very interesting story.

I always believe that, if he was in a movie production, he was never going to produce films, just trailers. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. IVAN KRASTEV: Oh. JON STEWART: That is absolutely true, Ivan. He-- he-- he loves the announcement. He loves the announcement. He does not like the maintenance and the. follow through. And I think you're beginning to see that so much of-- well, let's even bring it around to sort of the central lever. by which he is using coercion. And that's the tariffs.

ADAM TOOZE: Well, this is why I thought it was fair game. Ask Lutnick. He's tariff man. JON STEWART: He's tariff man. He's The Hammer. Adam, you were exactly right. But we negotiated with the EU. First of all, he threw out all the deals. that had been done and renegotiated. new tariff levels, right? Everybody agreed. Everybody walks in. Now, not even six months later, he decides, OK, I know we negotiated all these deals with Europe.

And we have our tariffs in place. I am now going to throw those over. So at every turn, if you don't do what I want, I am going to re-examine these negotiations. Adam, that-- that has to be the most--. then, what is the point of anything, of any treaty? ADAM TOOZE: I mean, it's real abusers' language. The way they do it is to say, look, you're getting-- you know, you're getting all upset. We're just threatening you and brutalizing you. And you know what's going to happen. We're going to sit down afterwards and make up.

And then it's all going to be OK. It's literally that kind of language of. serial abusive relationships. Like, you know, I love you, actually. But, you know, I had a bad night. And--. JON STEWART: But he's been taught that there is nothing. he can do that makes people walk away. and not give him what he wants. ADAM TOOZE: Yeah. And so they-- they will keep coming back. And it's not clear. It's really a ratchet, right? Because China's ended up in a really remarkably. favorable tariff position.

China, of course, pushed back and said, like, this far, no further. I'm agreeing. I would agree with Ivan that this does seem like a moment. where Europe might finally start moving down that route. They have this thing called the anti-coercion instrument, which. was, of course, devised for China and Russia, because the Europeans were worried. about rare Earth type moves or gas cut offs from the Russians. And Ursula von der Leyen, I think-- no, it. was Macron that said it today. Like, if we use that instrument against America,

the world is topsy turvy. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: All right, kids, an oldie but a goodie--. our old friend is back. Ground News-- boy, do we need this--. helping you stay clear headed in an online news slog. Information and news are a nightmare. right now, just an incessant algorithmic stream of nonsense. Ground News' website and an app helps the readers navigate.

the unrelenting news cycle, organizes. the headlines from across the news spectrum by story. It shows visual breakdowns of political bias and ownership. Where has this been? Ground News avoids bias, refuses to run ads, and rejects individualized newsfeed algorithms. Founded by a former NASA engineer--. are you a NASA engineer? Probably not. The platform remains independently operated and. supported by its subscribers. This is what we've been waiting for.

Go to groundnews.com/stewart, or scan the QR code on screen. to see how any news story is being framed. by news outlets around the world and across. the political spectrum. Use the link, groundnews.com/stewart, or scan the QR code to get 40% off the vantage plan, which unlocks all Ground News features. [THEME MUSIC]. Ivan, I am very dubious that Europe will--. I mean, this is part of Trump's strategy--.

is he believes Western Europe, the liberal Europe--. you know, to Trump, France is gay. That's his problem with all of this. Like, he doesn't like Enlightenment Europe. He likes Hungary Europe. He likes the right wing, authoritarian Europe. And in some respects, isn't what. he's doing further weakening what. we consider to be Enlightenment Europe and empowering--. I won't even say Meloni. I think he's gone much further than that--.

but empowering Orbán and the others? And isn't it maybe more likely that his--. his theater further weakens people like Macron and Starmer. and strengthens the illiberal leaders? IVAN KRASTEV: Listen, this is--. I do believe it's his major mistake. Because of course, there is, particularly. in the eastern part of Europe, people who like. his anti-immigration policy. As you know, Eastern Europe is not.

particularly the place where sexual minorities are adored. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. IVAN KRASTEV: But Greenland is different. Listen, it's about land. It's about territory. And here's the problem. Most of these people on the far-- on European far right, they're nationalists, which means they know their history. And they believe that the land is sacred. And he has a real estate view of land. And they're not like this. And one of the paradoxes--.

that, if it was about any type of a work, or if it was about migration, he was going to have an allies. And now his allies are silent. So he's allowing-- by the way, I. don't know how interested-- and to a certain extent, how skillful--. the liberal leaders are going to be. But it is the moment to have a new consensus on Europe. And do you know what happened in the European Parliament, when basically they decided not to ratify the trade deal that.

was reached six months ago? And then when the president of the parliament said, we are standing behind Denmark and Greenland--. so the mainstream parties, they are members. of the European Parliament from the mainstream-- parties. went up. And then suddenly, one by one, the nationalistic MPs. starting to stand up again, also, including the Orbán people. Because this is the story which he got totally wrong. Because he's not a classical nationalist. He's not interested in history.

To be honest, he's not interested in future. And this is why it's so difficult. to have a contract with him. If somebody does not believe that future matters, you cannot. have a contract with him. Because it's based on the fact that there is future. And I'm not sure that Trump is interested in anything. which is beyond his life time. And this is why he created a difficult moment. for his allies. Yes, for sure. East European countries are going to insist that we are not. going to use the bazooka, that we are. going to be more proportional. This is for sure.

But you should have listened to the Polish Prime Minister. Tusk went very hard. And listen for Poland, which is the most pro-American part. JON STEWART: Yes. IVAN KRASTEV: For him, basically, America was defense from--. from Russia. The way he start talking about this, it means also that he knows that his public-- so. the majority of the polls on these issues. are going to side with Europe and not with Trump. JON STEWART: Let me ask you. Let me push back a second on one thing. And that was-- and then, Adam, I'm going to ask you.

Donald Trump, when you say he's only. interested in his lifetime, I actually. think it, it in some ways, might be the opposite. I think he thinks only in terms of legacy. Look, he puts his name like an eight-year-old on everything. that he owns. And he views, through the prism of history, this idea. that I'll be the Louisiana Purchase guy. I'll be Seward's Folly. I'll get America and Alaska. I'll get them Greenland. I almost think he's thinking--.

it's not about that he doesn't think past his lifetime. It's that he doesn't think about what we're going to need. to manage and hold on to this new world order. that he's creating. But, Adam, go ahead. ADAM TOOZE: I like that version. I mean, I think there is a neonationalist group. within the Trump administration that. is closely affiliated with the AFD, and Orbán and so on. JON STEWART: No question. ADAM TOOZE: But I would associate. them more with the Millers and the Vances.

in the administration. I think there's a Rubio neocon wing, which is probably having. a pretty hard time with all of this. because they're a more conventional, NATO-orientated, Atlanticist kind of side. And then I think the president is sui generis. And I totally agree with you, Jon. What really struck me is some line. about how America's been trying to get. this deal done for 150 years. President after president has wanted to buy. this-- this real estate. And I want it. And I want my name on it.

And-- and-- and that is the-- that is the key. And I think it's these differences. within the Trump coalition-- we're seeing it here at Davos. I mean, they're doing-- they're doing some--. they did an event for the Turin Shroud under the headline, "The World's First Selfie Was Jesus.". JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. ADAM TOOZE: In America's--. America's Pavilion, which is celebrating 250 years. of the United States, they got Gillian Tett, the anthropologist editor of the-- ex-editor of The FT--.

to preside over an American-hosted event. on the Turin Shroud. Like, there's that element. And then there's Donald Trump really wanting. to-- because I also feel Donald Trump loves-- he kind. of likes-- he likes Scotland. He loves the glitz of Paris. JON STEWART: But he likes Scotland because he. has golf courses there. But if Scotland didn't let him build, he would hate Scotland. ADAM TOOZE: He appreciates good guilt work. And he knows he can't get it in the US. And they have it in spades in Paris. And his mate, Macron, who's a bit of a player, actually kind of digs him, which.

is why he's saying like, you know, Donald, what's wrong? What are you doing in Greenland? I don't understand. JON STEWART: Oh my lord. ADAM TOOZE: But I think there is a faction in the Trump--. which is-- which is really down the right-- the--. the East European Hungarian side. IVAN KRASTEV: Adam, you're right. But it's different about him. Because normally, this is about legacy, probably. But he cannot trust that, when he's going to die, they're going to make all this naming after him. And this is the interesting story. This is a person who wants to give the speech on his funeral.

JON STEWART: Yes. IVAN KRASTEV: Precisely. JON STEWART: No question. IVAN KRASTEV: And this is very important. He wants to do it for himself. And this is why, in my view, his understanding of time. is very interesting. I remember when he was talking about what they have discussed. with the Chinese President. He said, Xi promised me that he's not going to attack. Taiwan while I'm in power. And I do believe this is important. Because on the other side, for how long you're going to live, how long you're going to be in power,

this is changing dramatically. I do believe we're totally underestimating the importance, for example, of the famous Putin/Xi talk. about we are going to live 250 years. There is something happening with the idea of time. And he's-- this is why he is so, on one level, exceptional, but on the other level, symptomatic for something. that is beyond him. And this is why trying to focus psychologically on Trump, in my view, we're making a mistake. ADAM TOOZE: It was so interesting. hearing the Chinese vice premier today, who gave--.

you know, the Chinese come. And they have these extraordinarily technocratic. senior politicians. And it was precisely--. I literally sat and took a note, Ivan, which was, they have this idea of the flow. and the tide of history. And that Chinese have this intact, coherent, modernist kind of vision. And if you do Trumpy things, the real problem with them. is not that they're bad or wrong. It's that they're out of keeping with the time. And history will punish you. And this obviously is just completely disintegrated. in the-- in the Trump camp.

JON STEWART: So let's-- let's take a step back for a moment, and look at this from that more historical perspective, and maybe get a sense of what's going on here. My understanding of the formulation. of this special relationship is based on sort of a World. War-II-era feeling that this is a battle. between liberal democracies, foundational constitutional. republics, and authoritarianism,

whether that authoritarianism reared its face. in communism or fascism. So we were going to demonstrate that free peoples. rule with a wiser, more stable, more prosperous hand. And we did all kinds of, you know, alliances. But basically, it was, we were going to prove that capitalism, and democracy, and the-- the consent of the governed.

was far preferable, not just morally, but also. in terms of tangible result than these. other authoritarian regimes. That original bargain, that original sort. of what-- what drew us together, I think, is over. And what appears to me to be is it. is now an alliance, Trump being merely.

an implement of that between the battle between. woke and not woke. And that's how they're drawing--. so when everybody talks about, what does Putin have on Trump? Putin doesn't have shit on Trump. They agree. And the acolytes-- that's what everyone's trying. to hide here--. is that, in truth, Trump actually--. and that side of America agrees.

We want a less gay-friendly, more religious, anti-elite, rule by strongman. What do you guys think of that new--. as that being the polarity of the world? Am I overstating it? IVAN KRASTEV: I do believe you are. touching on something important but slightly overstating it. JON STEWART: Bring it. Bring it! IVAN KRASTEV: I do believe that, behind this, of course, is a major, important fear. But it's very much rooted in demography. It's much more the fertility rate.

And here the gay men and the gay women. are much more the symbol of why we do not have kids. This fear that, one level, your country. is very powerful, but on the other side that it's. in total decline-- and this is very. important for, not only for Trump, but for the right wing imagination. Because you start to live like the last man. Why we are not reproducing? What is happening? Is this not a suicidal societies? Is this a kind of individualism and so on.

I totally agree with you that they. don't think in terms of democracy. versus authoritarianism. And secondly, Trump himself, in a certain way, he talks that America is great. But I don't believe he does not trust the American model, neither as an economic model, nor as a political model. He's all the time envying others. He's envying the Gulfs. He is envying the Chinese. JON STEWART: He trusts it in the hands of--. and this is what gets to what I'm talking about. He does trust the American model, as long as it's in the hands of white, Christian--.

IVAN KRASTEV: Is true. JON STEWART: That's when he trusts it. The whole thing you're talking about in terms of demographics, they're only concerned about demographics in the sense that. minorities-- look, Elon Musk just put out on his platform--. or he agreed with it--. a statement about, if whites are ever the minority, they'll be slaughtered. This is what they're talking about. IVAN KRASTEV: Totally agree. And he is very important. Because for all this talk about Cold War,

we believe that the most important thing that happened. in 1989 was what happened in Berlin, the end of the fall of the wall. But in a certain way, if you see these people, they identify 1989 what happened in South Africa. Suddenly, you have a majority which is different than us. And by the way, it's much easier. to become from Communist anti-communist, than from white to become Black, and the other. way around. JON STEWART: I've seen movies about that. I think that's true. IVAN KRASTEV: Yeah. And there are too many people not like us. And democracy is about numbers.

And this comes the fear of democracy. Because democracy, at the end of the day, is counting. And the fact that we are going to be outvoted, this created this kind of anxiety about democracy. JON STEWART: Right. IVAN KRASTEV: And this is not by accident. that most of these people, they're. not so much talking how you're going to govern the world. but how you try to run out of the world, how to escape. We should go to Mars. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. IVAN KRASTEV: And by the way, why. Greenland is so interesting--. Greenland is important because you have everything there--. no people.

In a certain way, you have the resources. I don't believe that we should go on another planet. This is part-- particularly when it comes from--. from the Silicon Valley type of an imagination. Because this world is becoming kind of unlivable for us. JON STEWART: But if it's unlivable for the billionaires. that control everything, what chance do the rest of us have? But, Adam, speak to--. get back to-- is this what's happening? Is America now acting as though they are fearful of democracy.

and that democracy actually is the wrong thing, because we've. populated the country with people. that they don't believe are worthy of that? ADAM TOOZE: I do think the race--. I don't want to play these off against each other. But if you-- I think the--. race as an organizing category is more powerful than woke, in general. JON STEWART: Yeah, OK. ADAM TOOZE: Because historically, I. think the form of conservatism and rightism. that has clustered around Trump comes out of the backlash.

against civil rights. I mean, if you think about the American polity. as going through a series of convulsive major changes, one is the New Deal, and another one is the Civil Rights. revolution, and then, you know, the Civil War and. Reconstruction before that. JON STEWART: And the immigration. changes at the same time. ADAM TOOZE: Immigration happens at the same time. JON STEWART: --Civil Rights Act and then. the alien-- yeah, yeah. ADAM TOOZE: So-- and Trump has a solid track. record as a standard racist and anti-Black racist. In his party days, he was notably--. he's not a standard conservative on sexuality,

including on homosexuality, right? So I think the line-- this idea of kind of great displacement, that, the savagery of ICE, the casual. anti-Black, anti-Chinese--. I mean, just the comprehensive white--. white power kind of vision, that rings true to me. as an organizing idea of--. of a conservatism. Does it make you hostile to democracy? I'm not sure that follows. It makes you hostile to liberal versions of it or the version.

that American liberals have pushed. It makes you hostile to the inhibiting. norms of the rule of law, all those kind of things. But of course, their idea is that, once you get the citizenry down to the people who should be. allowed to vote, then that group will solidly return. their kind of politics, right? So I don't think it's-- it's illiberal. It certainly wants to--. I mean, one of the most shocking pieces of news. in the last 24 hours is that the Americans have clearly.

been waging a campaign against French judges presiding. over the case that was going to prosecute. Marine Le Pen for various types of corruption, corrupt practices. And officials from the American Embassy visited French judges. And so they have a thing for judges. They have a thing for the independence of the judiciary. This is a problem. JON STEWART: But understand this. They've been doing that around the world. ADAM TOOZE: Around the world. JON STEWART: They did that with-- they put 50% tariffs. on Brazil to get Bolsonaro.

ADAM TOOZE: But this is to do with the independence. of the law, right? So it's not democracy. JON STEWART: Right. ADAM TOOZE: It's the independence of the law. IVAN KRASTEV: But-- but there is some important paradox. And the paradox is the following. Look at some of the countries that he likes a lot, Emirates, the Gulf countries. JON STEWART: Yes. IVAN KRASTEV: Listen, this the countries. with the highest number of immigrants in the world. So it's not about migration. It's about migration with rights. Yes. If they're going to come simply as a laborer--. JON STEWART: Yeah, those are workers, laborers. They don't have full rights. IVAN KRASTEV: Exactly. And this is the very-- this is, in my view, the story.

And I talk like this is very famous. You know, in 1953, during the-- the anti-communist protest. in East Berlin, Brecht has this famous poem, where he said, if the government does not like the people, they should elect the new people. And this-- now suddenly, you have a government who believe. that they should elect people. Because otherwise, the situation. is getting out of control. So migrants are fine. By the way, this is also true for Europe. People normally are going to say Viktor Orbán is. very much against foreigners.

Do you know that, in 2018, Hungary. was the country that gave the most labor. permits in the European Union? The problem is about-- you can share labor market. What you are not going to share is power. And this understanding of democracy, where citizenship goes with ethnicity, with race, with things like this, this is changing. ADAM TOOZE: And it goes all the way back. I mean, this-- if you look at the constitutions of Australia. as it becomes an independent commonwealth, which. was a huge inspiration for racists in California.

and also conversations in South Africa, it literally says that we will decide who the people are. IVAN KRASTEV: Yeah. ADAM TOOZE: Right? With a view to excluding Asian migrants, right? So this-- this Brechtian quip that the government. should elect a new people is--. for those who have always been addicted to trying to defend. white rule at the frontiers of power, this has always been a key legal--. I mean, explicitly formulated constitutional principle. [THEME MUSIC].

JON STEWART: Hey, I just--. how'd you sleep last night? Did you wake up at 2:00 sweating. and thinking a little bit about, what if Greenland invades us? What did you ever think about that? Yeah. Well, I-- I didn't sleep very well. But here's the other thing. If you want to sleep well, you got. to sleep there on-- on what they call. an Avocado Green Mattress--. Avocado Green Mattress. It sells mattresses. You know that one? It's in the name-- but also pillows, solid wood furniture.

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Avocado, dream of better. And now they're having a great sale on mattresses. Go to avocadogreenmattress.com/tws. to get up to 15% off. That's avocadogreenmattress.com/tws. for up to 15% off of. mattresses, avocadogreenmattress.com/tws. [THEME MUSIC]. Now I want to separate, you know, what we're doing in Greenland and what we're. doing in Venezuela from this larger. context about democracies.

Because to my mind, again, the exceptionalism that supposedly. was America was that we were going to do away with that, that-- that the rights of citizenship are unalienable. and that the people that are there, if they are citizens, that-- the whole point of it was that it wasn't going to be. tied to a religion, a race, a practice, a political ideology-- that it would. be about the consent of the governed. within a constitutionally-mandated.

system. That was supposed to be what was so novel. And again, what transformed formed what was either feudal. systems, or warlord systems, or authoritarian systems into this. prosperous world order-- which, by the way-- and I want. you guys to comment on this--. how crazy is it that America is complaining. about the 80 years since World War II of the world order. that we created? This is what we--. we were the driving factors of disarmament.

of these various places, of creating of these institutions. That was us. ADAM TOOZE: But, Jon, the last serious effort to buy Greenland. was made in the 1940s by the people. who made that global order. So the glitch in this-- the glitch in this is that, like, at the moment they were creating that order--. JON STEWART: Yes. ADAM TOOZE: --they had their eye on Greenland. Because, you know, it is-- it is-- and in World War II, it had proved important real estate. And its position within Denmark and the Danish sovereignty.

is really ambiguous. It's the products of settler colonialism, right? So this is--. JON STEWART: But we all are. ADAM TOOZE: Yeah, well, many of us. Many of us-- more-- some more than others, right? But-- but--. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. ADAM TOOZE: So you have to be-- we. have to be realistic about the logic. of that earlier epoch of power that is. celebrated now, in retrospect. JON STEWART: So, am I making a mistake, Adam, in-- by thinking about this. through an idealistic prism?

Is that the mistake we make when we try? And are the formulations of our criticism--. should they not be moral and idealistic but actually much. more pragmatic? IVAN KRASTEV: But is it also not true. that part of the strengths of Trump came from the fact. that, for many people around the world, disorder was disorder. ADAM TOOZE: Yeah. JON STEWART: Yes. IVAN KRASTEV: And for example, his major point was. I'm against liberal hypocrisy. We are talking about democracy. But in many places, it was not about democracy.

From this point of view, the legitimacy of Trump, paradoxically, comes from the fact. that he's the nightmare for the conspiracy theorist. Because before America goes to Venezuela, talk about democracy. People suspect it's about oil. And then he comes and says, no, no, it's only about oil. ADAM TOOZE: It's about oil. [LAUGHS]. IVAN KRASTEV: You cannot be conspiracy theorist anymore, unless you believe that he goes there for democracy. and just talks about oil. ADAM TOOZE: And then Exxon shows up and says, we can't invest there. IVAN KRASTEV: Exactly. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. ADAM TOOZE: It's like, what? IVAN KRASTEV: Yeah.

But what he is not understanding. is that hypocrisy, of course, was awful. And many of the people hated it. But also, hypocrisy is a constraint. Because I am saying that I go for democracy, I should do certain things. And there are certain things that I will not do. And from this point of view, this is, in my view, changing dramatically. Because what Trump does not understand--. he is, as every revolutionary leader, does not respect borders-- talking to the French judges, for sure. JON STEWART: Right. IVAN KRASTEV: Other American diplomats. have been talking probably to French judges.

during the Cold War, too. ADAM TOOZE: Yeah, no, no, no, of course, old practice. IVAN KRASTEV: Normally, you are telling to the people, do it because we're going to invite you on our party. And his major story is I'm doing just for the Americans. I don't care about any of you. And this is an interesting story. This is a major change. For the first time, you have a kind of a major, radical way. to change the order. And at the same time, he's not telling anybody else that they. can benefit from this. A colleague of mine, an American colleague of mine,

told me something that is right or wrong. But I believe that it resonated strongly with me. He said it's not by accident that the only business. in which Trump really failed spectacularly. was the casino business. Because in the casino business, in order to make money, you at least should try to create the illusions. that others are winning. JON STEWART: Right. IVAN KRASTEV: And for him, allowing others to win. is psychological unacceptable. And what he didn't like about the liberal order. was that, if America is so powerful, why.

we're not getting the spoils? If we have taken this city wide, basically, we are not allowed to do in the city everything. we want. JON STEWART: But Ivan, within that, though, in what world can we argue that the last 80 years, America. hasn't taken the spoils? We may not have distribute it very well. throughout our population, where. we have tremendous inequality and lots of poverty. But who's done better in these last 80 years than we have?

IVAN KRASTEV: Listen. His answer is going to be, in the last 30 years, the best did China. And then he said, how it happened. that, after World War II, Japan and Germany did so well? Because this is his idea of a zero-sum game. For him, that you are governing--. not because you're doing well but because your enemies are. doing badly. And this is interesting. He goes. And you're totally right. America benefited a lot-- but not everybody. And he goes to these poor Americans and said, they're telling you that you're the hegemon.

And these American said, yes, you're right. We are not. ADAM TOOZE: I think Japan is crucial in this story. IVAN KRASTEV: Yeah, Japan is crucial. Because this is how he was socialized. ADAM TOOZE: And this--. exactly. I mean, if we think of him biographically, that's the key moment. And that is not a moment which has, you know, say, China's globalization or Mexico, NAFTA. You'd say American capital benefited on a really. gigantic scale from that. JON STEWART: Mm-hmm. But not the workers. ADAM TOOZE: Japan is a more clear-cut case. of a national industrial country.

that really did assert itself. Now, overall, it's probably welfare. enhancing, because the stuff they made. was high quality and cheap. Wall Street, in the end, does begin. to make footholds in Tokyo. But I think the-- that experience. of the '70s and '80s is really--. is very formative. And I think it just sort of reverbs around. And he slots new countries into that space, one. after the other. And that-- that talk at the time. was very commonplace, right, the-- that zero-sum vision.

And there's an element, you know, that the Germans and the Japanese. did pursue within the fixed exchange rate system of Bretton. Woods and strategies, which meant their currencies. were undervalued. And America, of course, in the early stages, in the '40s-- '47, '48 Marshall Plan, and so on-- deliberately accepted that as the. trade, right? They would be part of the American hegemonic bloc. in the Cold War. And American consumers would benefit. from the inflow of relatively affordable, high-quality goods.

JON STEWART: And we'd be the reserve currency, though, for all of it. ADAM TOOZE: Yeah. But American industry was so strong, it didn't need to worry. It would outcompete. It would out-innovate. It would rise to the top, no stress. And through the early '70s, that bargain works pretty well. on balance-- not, of course for everyone in American society. because racism and inequality. But nevertheless, standard of living go up. So you don't see that divide opening. And it's really from the mid-70s that it breaks down. And at that point, I think, a national mercantilism--.

Japan, as the bad guy-- merges with a social resentment, which. is driven by the real stagnation-- indeed, deterioration-- of the standard of living. of the American working class. And you begin to get that hard hat coalition, these labor. populist, nationalist, protectionist forces gaining. quite a lot of strength. And by the '90s, like, Buchanan and people like. this can really begin to make a powerful. case along these lines. JON STEWART: But Buchanan was, as a national figure,

vilified for the nakedness of-- of what he was talking. about in terms of, you know, the blatant racism that-- we're. so beyond Buchanan at this point. But I want to talk about, you know, you say, well, there were flaws in terms of globalization. And clearly, maybe letting China into the WTO, or allowing capital to travel so easily when labor. couldn't, and not figuring out a way. to make that a-- a more ameliorate, the kind. of downside of that for the American worker,

which I wholeheartedly agree with. But reforms to that system could have so strengthened it, rather than destroying it, because the system. they appear to be going back to--. and this is really what I think people need to understand. The system we're going back to, in terms of exploiting. resources, rather than even sharing. the benefits in a slightly, you know, less fair way--. I don't think people understand how much it.

takes for an empire-- what you have to expend. to exploit resources. Because those other countries want to be free, too. Venezuela wants to be free, too--. all of them. And the fact that we think, oh, we're. the biggest, so we'll go in, and we'll exploit Greenland, and we'll exploit Venezuela-- and that people's. resentment doesn't have a cost to goods and services.

It seems nuts. IVAN KRASTEV: You know, you're touching. on something critically important, at least. from my point of view. Paradoxically, Trump does not understand nationalism. So he, himself, talks about this--. JON STEWART: And yet, uses it very well. IVAN KRASTEV: Because he basically really cannot. understand that, the more you talk about. Venezuelan oil, for Venezuelans, this becomes the major issue. This became the magic things. The resource nationalism does not come from nowhere.

And from this point of view, he's. basically fueling the forces that. are going to create a problem for the world. that he wants to create. Because all these people, even Denmark-- listen, this is absolutely amazing with Denmark. If you look at Denmark, Denmark should. be one of the very few European countries that he likes. Paradoxically, there is a certain nostalgia in all. these Trumpian movement. And this is very much based on social cohesion, migration, whiteness. Paradoxically, Denmark is one of the countries.

that he should love most. This was a country which basically. was quite effective in protecting their borders. Secondly, this is a country with a lot of social cohesion. This is a country that was a very important American ally. So [INAUDIBLE] is not there. Basically, they soldiers have been dying in Afghanistan. And they have been dying out of solidarity. with the United States, not because there was. a problem for Denmark itself. JON STEWART: Boy, were they. They stood next to America. Yeah, no question.

IVAN KRASTEV: But the problem is. that, in a certain way, when Trump talks about the world, he sees only America. And this is the problem with Europe. In a certain way, you go there. And you basically see only the things that you. know from the United States. So here you are, the Europeans. And they're like the Democrats. And they're like this. And they're like that. So, paradoxically, he does not have. much interest in other places, particularly. when it comes to the allies. And this is this strange kind of a combination.

of one level person with a strong imperial imagination--. and on the other side, incredibly provincial. So even when he decides to remake the UN--. what he's doing with the peace board, it's a golf club. You go with a billion--. JON STEWART: A billion dollar entrance fee. IVAN KRASTEV: I'm inviting this. Yeah, but it is a golf club. So in a sense, institutionally, the golf club. is the way he basically sees the world being run. JON STEWART: Right. And that's how they do business. ADAM TOOZE: And he doesn't understand.

the economics, right? IVAN KRASTEV: Yeah. ADAM TOOZE: Because if you were serious about Greenland's. resources, anyone could have invested in Greenland. America has a great treaty, 51, the wartime treaty renewed. There's no-- you know, those resources are not somehow. lying fallow, hidden behind a protective wall of, you know, Danish anti-American nationalism that. prevents good American businesses from-- no, none. It's just the-- it's a-- it's a weird-- you know, my personal favorite interpretation is. it's the map of the game Risk.

I mean, you know--. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. ADAM TOOZE: You know, Venezuela and Greenland are very large. JON STEWART: Can I tell you what I think it is, Adam? And I think he said it. I think what he's saying is no, no no, no, no, we don't want to rent it. We want to own it. You know how it is. If you rent a place, you can't even put pictures. up and put holes in the wall. But if you own it, you get to do what-- whatever you want. And, Ivan, you-- you touched on this earlier. You said that what Trump does is. he finds a way that the world has always worked.

And he is transparently explicit about it. But the thing that I think maybe we're. missing a little bit is it's not the only way that the world. has ever worked. It isn't only mob threats and trying to coerce people. I don't think we're fully appreciating how difficult it. is to have something sustainable and prosperous. through coercion only.

And to Adam's point, we could have had all of it. And we did have more bases there. We let them go fallow. I don't-- Adam, has-- is-- is Europe--. are they believing yet that this is a real--. because I saw your panel. And I saw the faces on the Europe. It was disbelief. I think everybody keeps thinking, oh, no, they're going. to pull out of this spiral. ADAM TOOZE: Or-- or not. I mean, depending on what you saw, earlier in the day--.

JON STEWART: Right. ADAM TOOZE: --you saw the opposite logic. And the-- the common denominator. is it's as though the Americans forced the Europeans. to actually come up with a concerted investment. strategy for Greenland, which they've never previously have. And the Europeans are actually going to do-- they're. going to make the movie. And he's made the trailer. I mean, the-- well, they're going. to make the sequel to the film that he never made. And so they're going to end up doing. some sort of weird actual European program.

I mean, Greenland's like-- it's 56,000 people. It's a territory the size of both Alaska and California. put together. It currently runs entirely on Danish public money. So 25% of its GDP, half its 50% to 60% of its public budget--. is coming from Copenhagen and Danish taxpayers. So, you know, if that's what America wants to take over, this is a substantial--. I mean, not huge by American standards--. but nevertheless, this is a net negative, I mean,

in-- in its current form. And what the Europeans are going to do. is their usual European thing. They'll do a regional policy. And they'll find a few billions to transform this. And Ivan, you know, in Bulgaria knows the story only too. well of how mixed the results of those kind of programs. can be. They can be very real. But it depends critically on the politics. in the-- in the place where the money is applied. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: So I'm--. I'm kind of a chef type--.

chef type dude, kind of a-- you know, a lot of times, people. watch me at home. And they'll be like, are you on The Bear? And I'll be like, well, I could see how you made that mistake. I like to-- I like to throw down. for a little bit of the munch. But, you know, for me, the one problem I have is the, you know, the olive oil. How much do you use? Is the proper olive oil? I used to have an olive oil fountain in the house, like a chocolate fountain. But it was-- it's sloppy, a lot of slippage. But Grasa Extra Virgin Olive Oil, always fresh.

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The bottles and refill cans are 100% opaque to block. UV rays that degrade the oil. And it keeps it fresh. So head to grasa.co. And use TWS to get 10% off. And get to cooking your next chef-quality meal. [THEME MUSIC]. Trump views, though, the EU as having-- been created. to hurt the United States. I mean, he already views it in a kind of very aggressive--.

I don't think he views it as allied with the United States. in that way. IVAN KRASTEV: No, but also, in a certain way, he view as hostile everything that he does not understand. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. IVAN KRASTEV: No, but it's true. JON STEWART: Like dogs. IVAN KRASTEV: And to be honest, I have a sympathy with him. European Union is not easy to understand. And in a certain way, in the European Union, what is totally. absent is the possibility to have a politics based. on a personal relationship. Because having a personal relationship with whom?

And as a result of it, for him, everything that's coming. is just bureaucracy constrains. Everything that he hates about America, he sees there. But also, what is interesting in the case of Greenland. is that Denmark is basically-- was telling him before, we're going to give you what he wants. And his message is, no, no, no, I don't want you to give to me. I want to take it from you. JON STEWART: Yeah. Right. IVAN KRASTEV: And this is the story. where Europeans understand that it cannot work like this. Because paradoxically, he is the society response, also.

What he does not understand is the pride of others. Danish people are proud people. By the way, if he was playing a different way--. there was a very good article in Foreign Affairs. by a former American diplomat how he can take Greenland. But he can do it in four or five years with investments, and doing this, and that. And basically, talking to the Greenland population. and Greenland elite.

But for him, it doesn't matter. For him, it should come fast. It should come for July 4th. It should be used for the midterm elections. JON STEWART: Right. IVAN KRASTEV: So in a certain way, this is the symbolism of this. And this is where I'm afraid he's playing symbolic games. Europeans does not know how to play. symbolic games, because this is not where we are from. But he's totally underestimating the capacity. of Europe not to cooperate. JON STEWART: Has he made, Adam, this politically impossible,

then, for Europe to acquiesce to some kind of deal--. going along with what Ivan is saying--. that-- so let's say there is a deal to be made. Is it now too politically damaging to. people who are already weak? I mean, the leaders of that sort of Western European flow. are much weaker, you know, than some of their right. leaning counterparts. ADAM TOOZE: I mean, I just--. I'd love to think that. I just really need to check my biases on this.

Like, one shouldn't-- one shouldn't underestimate. the capacity of the Europeans to fail. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. ADAM TOOZE: And they--. IVAN KRASTEV: We have a talent for this. I should agree very much. ADAM TOOZE: We have a real-- like, it's spectacular. JON STEWART: So you think this actually is going to work, that Trump is going to get it? ADAM TOOZE: Think Democrats. We know it. Like, think Schumer. Think Democratic leadership-- every bit as bad as that. JON STEWART: Oh, dear lord. ADAM TOOZE: Plus more division. It's not a done deal.

But I-- I love the basic logic. One of the things that's really shocked me is, as a kind of, you know, action, reaction kind of logic. is the promotion of Ursula von der Leyen. In the first term--. Ivan's totally right-- they had no idea who she was. Like, they just couldn't process the fact that Europe. has this complex polity. JON STEWART: Right. Right. ADAM TOOZE: This time around, Lutnick on stage. literally said, you know this way, the way this goes. We bully. You agree to be bullied. Then he literally said, Ursula von der Leyen and Donald Trump.

get together and do a deal. And it was like, well, what has happened here? This is so strange. And the Biden people, of course, prepared this. Because they really, deliberately. promoted Brussels, and the commission, and von der Leyen. into the telephone number that you call in Europe. There's no question now. You call the ECB. And you call Brussels. This is where you call. There's no-- there's no ambiguity about it, really. The Germans and the French, you need to talk to, too. But increasingly, the trend has gone. towards that centralization. JON STEWART: Ultimately, then, what.

is the point of any of this? And does Donald Trump believe, actually, we will have a better world for America without the EU. and without NATO? Because if this goes through, I don't understand how the EU is. still any way considered a credible organization. protecting the sovereignty of its member states. If you do this, what is the point of being there? IVAN KRASTEV: But this is a very interesting question.

Because I do believe that there are people around him who still. believe that the very important is. to try to get Russia to decouple. from China to make a deal. And their thinking is, if there is not a European Union. and if there is no NATO, why Russia should. not be America's best friend. And all these people negotiate. And they see this and that. And don't forget, most of these people, they don't come from diplomacy. And they don't come from security. They come from trade. And this is why, for them, it's very difficult to understand.

somebody like Putin, who is totally. kind of immersed in history, and pride, and story. And economic argument is the most not-- the most important. And I do believe, this is the real issue. The people around him, I don't believe that he's--. I don't know. Is Trump himself in this? They believe that the European Union is bad because it is big, that if you have 27 small countries, you're going to do much easier with them, that, for America, it's going to be easier to do it-- by the way, not understanding that, if this is going to happen,

America should try to manage a space which is going to be so. both economically security and politically tensions. that it's really going to be an issue for-- particularly. for this administration that does not want. American money to be spent outside, Europe is going to be a nightmare. I do believe that somebody should try to show President. Trump films about the disintegration. of the Soviet Union and so on. Disintegration is not a funny game. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. IVAN KRASTEV: It's not a funny game.

JON STEWART: No. IVAN KRASTEV: But-- but of course, there is also this other wing of the-- the Republican Party. And I do believe this is why people like Macron, and von der. Leyen, and of course Merz, they understand. that, when it comes to Greenland, they are not facing America. They are not even facing the Republican Party. They are facing Trump and small group around him. They do believe that, even in this administration, there are people for whom NATO is a value. And losing NATO is against American national interest.

So this is why they are going to be, in my view, much more assertive than in other situations. JON STEWART: Ivan, if you're impressed by how Europe can. capitulate to Trump, let me introduce. you to the Republican Party. ADAM TOOZE: Yeah. JON STEWART: Because if you ever want. to see somebody sublimate to their dear leader--. and isn't it, though-- in talking about that, Adam, I'm curious what you think about this. If the idea-- like, so let's say there is an end game here. that they view it as, if I can get Russia to decouple.

from China, that's better for me. than if the EU is strong and productive. I mean, if the United States has to defend Greenland alone, somehow that's better than defending. it with 32 other countries. But OK, that's fine. How naive is it to think that Russia would ever. decouple from China in an honest and real way. and somehow align itself as a great friend. of the United States?

And why would we want that, anyway? ADAM TOOZE: No, I mean, I think there is a real--. I mean, I love Ivan's, like, mapping of this. is-- is delirious. It is fascinating. But I mean, don't we have to talk about the Norway letter--. I mean, and the silence about the Norway letter? JON STEWART: When he says the Norway letter, he's referring to--. Trump wrote Norway and said, I don't even care. about your Nobel Peace Prize. But since you didn't give it to me, I now don't have to be a man of peace. ADAM TOOZE: Well, and actually, it goes further.

He says, now I don't have to care about universal peace. Now I can care just about America. He actually-- this goes to this weird relationship. with nationally. He literally says, now I can be America first, right? Because previously, I was doing the peace thing. And because you-- and-- and I mean, it's so ludicrous. And the overwhelming-- what we've seen here at Davos is. that people just are tight lipped, are shut down about the evident fact that this man to whom. they swear a kind of personal loyalty.

and fealty is childlike--. is-- is-- is-- truly, it's childlike and basically crazy. And I agree with Ivan. There may be strategic groups that. want to use this for the purpose. of the kind of grand rearrangement. that you're talking about. But-- but I think we have to-- we have to allow for the fact. that there is just this emptiness. and madness at the heart of the whole thing--. JON STEWART: Oh, dear Lord. ADAM TOOZE: --that is genuinely infantile.

JON STEWART: So it's literally, Greenland is. just another fucking ballroom. ADAM TOOZE: It's a toy. JON STEWART: It's just another ballroom. ADAM TOOZE: It's another-- it's a big, big, big ballroom, like, that he gets to decorate. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. IVAN KRASTEV: But do you know what is interesting? You know this-- the part of the pressure coming from this. politics is that you cannot distinguish between. important and unimportant. ADAM TOOZE: No, you can't. It's all--. IVAN KRASTEV: And this is very typical, by the way, that for the monarchical politics. Because important is what matters for the guy. And from this point of view of being strategic,

particularly if you're working with the guy, is the biggest mistake that you can do. Be sure that you know what he cares about. When he said that, basically, he wants to buy Greenland, I was trying to say this is also a risky strategy. Because probably, the sovereign fund of Norway. can come with a higher price. And don't forget--. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS] We have a little debt. Hey, listen, there's no reason to get personal, Ivan. We have a little debt. I'm telling you, next month is going to be a big month.

And we are on our way back. ADAM TOOZE: Oh, yeah. I-- Lutnick could not have been clearer about this-- best. credit in the world. JON STEWART: Best. ADAM TOOZE: On the substance, though, of your-- of your question, though, Jon, about, like, trust Russia and China--. I mean, this would be-- you know, for Putin, currently, the greatest disaster in recent history. is the collapse of the Soviet Union. He's spoken about this very eloquently. JON STEWART: Yes. ADAM TOOZE: And I think, actually, Xi Jinping agrees. This is one thing that Putin and Xi Jinping agree on--. is that the collapse of the Soviet Union between '89. and '91, I thought, is the-- this is the center.

of all of their thinking. And for the Chinese, of course, '89. means not just South Africa and the Berlin Wall, but Tiananmen Square. And-- but would a disintegration of Europe. lead Russia away from China? It would certainly make Russia less dependent on China. And it would open up an incredibly wide. field of influence in Europe. But I don't think there's any reason to think it would, like, squarely-- why would they? They've just won.

Why would they give something up? It's-- and if energy is the hardcore. of the Russian regime--. JON STEWART: Right. ADAM TOOZE: --both oil, which is globally fungible, and gas, which has to be piped on-- in the main. for efficiency--. China's-- China's the decisive variable in your demand. equation, right? India is never going to be a China. China is the be all and end all. They've been desperately trying to get a big pipeline. deal with the Chinese done. They've somehow maybe, maybe got there. They are not going to back away from that.

So I think the idea that you break Europe so as to win--. I mean, it has a-- it has an amazing logic. But I don't think it would work. [LAUGHS] It's just like, I know, my modest suggestion is--. JON STEWART: Right. Right. ADAM TOOZE: --I think it probably. might not work out like that. IVAN KRASTEV: And also, Adam is making a point, which is very important. Because between Putin and Xi, both of them. are obsessed with the long history. You remember famous Xi saying, we see a change, which is--. are you really going to bet on Trump. if you want to build relations with the United States?

And this is the interesting story with the Russians. From our point of view, they are overexcited about Trump. But on the other side, the Russians. are very much afraid that they can. make a deal that is not going to survive for a long time. And this is why, on one level, he cannot make a deal. But on the other, others don't believe that they. can make a deal with him. Because they still don't know, what is a post-Trump America? We know that post-Trump America is not pre-Trump America. I don't believe that anybody has doubts on this. But how exactly it's going to look like, what kind.

of a geostrategic vision is going to have, what kind of political values it's going to share-- so. from this point of view, paradoxically, what we are seeing everywhere is kind of an identity politics. but on a global level. Everybody is asking themselves who we are. [LAUGHS]. And this is for America. This is for Russia. JON STEWART: Listen, we're asking ourselves-- look, we're living in a world where they're telling us. we have to attack Greenland if we. have to protect it from it falling into the hands.

of the Russians. OK, what about Ukraine? Yeah, no, that-- no, we're going to give that. ADAM TOOZE: Plus, why is it strategic territory? Because of climate change, which isn't happening. JON STEWART: Right! I mean, we-- the cognitive dissonance that it takes. to be one of his ardent supporters--. and then they all just look at you like, hey, this is the guy. who wrote The Art of the Deal. And you're like, no, he didn't. Some other fucking guy wrote it. And he put his name on it, like, basically what he. does with all of his projects.

And-- and all he's done, as far as I can see, is turned us into a-- a-- a less free, less. democratic, more kleptocratic disunion. on-- on any of these things. And I begin to wonder-- and this is really-- it gets. down to the crucial question. Is there a free world? And who's going to lead it?

Take your time. [LAUGHS]. I mean, am I wrong there, Adam? Is that too-- too cynical? ADAM TOOZE: I mean, we're-- hey-- hey, Jon, we're making this show. You-- you can-- if you want to-- if you want. to answer that question, try making. this show in mainland China. JON STEWART: OK. All right. ADAM TOOZE: Try making a show like this in Russia. IVAN KRASTEV: Yeah. ADAM TOOZE: At the limit, clearly, there are huge--. there are huge differences in the world. And they're still extremely meaningful and absolutely. worth fighting for. JON STEWART: Right.

ADAM TOOZE: And we still, at this very moment, are the beneficiaries. And the game is not done. And midterms are coming up. And these people are wrong about so many. of their hypotheses. JON STEWART: But Adam, being able to make this show--. but we're also OK with them taking. over a sovereign country that doesn't want to be taken over. ADAM TOOZE: Oh, no, no, no, no, I mean, like--. JON STEWART: Can-- you know what I'm saying. ADAM TOOZE: Is there-- is there a pure, clearly defined--. do we still know what freedom is, all of that? Like, I agree, is kind of out the window.

But I mean, really, we've-- it would be-- we would be--. it would be self-indulgent to deny the huge differences. which are still very real. It's conceivable a time might come where. those differences get erased. But we are not there. And there's everything to play for. And presumably, all of us engaged in this conversation. think that's why we need to talk. We need to talk publicly. We need to raise voices. JON STEWART: And that's exactly right. ADAM TOOZE: We need to make people laugh. We need to make people think. We need to engage with these questions, because this is so not done. IVAN KRASTEV: And in my view, this.

is also where the part of the big problem with. the current administration is. Because we talk as if, in the world, there is a major kind of rise of authoritarianism and so on. I don't see it like this. I do believe that the real problem is. that the border between democracy and authoritarianism. is the least protected border in the world. JON STEWART: Bars! Hold on, Ivan. You can't just drop that! You can't just drop that in the middle of a podcast. and expect me not to stand up and applaud. Say that again. IVAN KRASTEV: No, no, I'm not going to say it again. Because probably, this time, it's not.

going to be so spectacular. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. IVAN KRASTEV: You know, the repetition is always a problem. JON STEWART: The border between totalitarianism and democracy. is the least defended border in the world. I love that. IVAN KRASTEV: Because one of the interesting story. about the Cold War was that, because of the nature. of the Cold War, the America has to basically redefine. itself as the free world, very hypocritically here and there. But without the Soviet Union, of course, America just was not going to be as important for America.

Because just was important because it was not-- it. was forbidden in the Soviet Union. And secondly, because basically the Soviets believed. that future belongs to them. America should become also very much future oriented. And I'm saying this because I also believe one of the reasons. the Cold War never became hot was. that both sides believed that future was on-- on their side. This is why they believe that better to fight tomorrow when. they are going to be stronger. What makes me really nervous about the world in which we. are living is that you have basically.

people who fear the future. They fear for demographic reasons, for technological reasons. All the time, somebody is going to replace us. And when you fear the future, you. believe that, if there are going to be. a fight, better fight today. Because tomorrow, we're going to be weaker. And this explains this kind of a strange combination. of, on one level, this kind of a trailer. is about American power, which is real. Listen, what happened in Venezuela was the operation. that took the Russians four years,

and they cannot finish it. Americans did it for four hours. But on the other side, kind of there is no future perspective. And this is why people are becoming so anxious. And this is why you cannot project your life. And I don't believe this deficit of the future. is a huge problem for democracy. Because future-- a certain type of future--. is one of the invisible institutions for democracy. If you don't believe in future, democracy cannot function. Because democracy is also the art of postponing,

of timing certain things. JON STEWART: Right. And of persuasion. Because persuasion is--. IVAN KRASTEV: And persuasion, absolutely. JON STEWART: --is the coin of the realm. when it comes to that. Adam Tooze, you are in Davos. You are perhaps-- no one is standing closer to the border. between democracy and totalitarianism. than-- than you right now. Is the fear here while you're there-- because all the leaders. of that so-called Democratic world. are probably walking around right now in Davos. Is there-- is there a-- a will to defend.

that border as forcefully as-- as perhaps. it needs to be defended? ADAM TOOZE: I mean, we went-- we went back and forth. on this a minute ago. It's worth saying there's one really depressing thing going. on, which is that people are leaving before Trump gets here, which is another way of responding. to this border, which is to say, no, I don't have to sit on the edge of this. I don't want to be part of the spectacle. I don't want to be--. I don't want to be dragged into this.

I'm just going to--. I don't have to be here. And that is a kind of withdrawal. that's very ambiguous, right? Because it doesn't necessarily dispose. The Europeans are going to meet on Thursday. There's everything to play for. But one of the things that's happening. is that kind of stepping away. And people are making choices, literally today. Because we know what kind of security is going to happen, and it's going to be mad. And like, there's one faction which is leaving. And then there's another faction which is basically.

get locked into the conference center tomorrow. and live with all of the insane American security. Because, you know, the-- the physical other leaders. come and go in Davos. And there's a bubble around them--. Ivan will know this well. But like, they don't change the whole thing. The Americans tomorrow are going. to put their boot print on the entire-- the entire show. And you can either choose to not be there for it. Or I'm not-- this is not-- no kind of heroics. Like, it's just literally, who's. going to be part of the Trump sleepover and who not?

And some of us are going to stay. for the authoritarian sleepover show. that is going to come descend on this place tomorrow. JON STEWART: Adam, do you think the buffet. is going to get better with the Americans in town? Or do you think it's still going to be wanting? ADAM TOOZE: No, the Chinese, I think, are doing the buffet tomorrow evening. And they're-- that is the buffet, I'm afraid. As you would imagine, that is the buffet. that you want to be at. JON STEWART: Gentlemen, I can't think of a better note. to end on than the fact that the Chinese, right now,

in the world as it stands, provide the best buffet. And I think America is going to need--. IVAN KRASTEV: I only hope that Europeans are not. going to do the dishes again. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. That's the problem. Trump sees no peers at Davos. He sees only Putin and Xi as his peers. They're the only ones. Everyone else is working in the kitchen. Gentlemen, thank you so much, what. an interesting conversation. It's going to be really wild to see how this is going.

to turn over the next week. Adam Tooze, author of Chartbook Substack, Ivan Krastev, chairman, Center for Liberal Strategies, I really appreciate you guys joining us. and giving us those insights. Thank you. IVAN KRASTEV: Thank you. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Folks, you may have heard, other times. during this podcast, other--. other certain brands and such-- that I talk about how much. I like to cook, how much I--. I love to create fabulous meals and entertain.

I'm going to be honest with you. It's not always the truth. The truth is, I don't--. I don't have time to cook. I used to do it. But it was, like, a short order thing. Like, if you wanted eggs over easy, I could do that-- other than that, pretty useless. That's why Factor is the deal. Factor makes life easy. Factor, they'll send you fully-prepared meals. designed by dietitians, crafted by chefs. You know, you eat well without the shopping, without the cooking.

It's perfect for me, because I--. I like to sit. I'm a big sit man. And if you're trying to eat healthier, more protein, spice up the boring food, Factor is. designed to fit those goals--. 100 rotating weekly meals. Now-- and I've spoken about this before. Generally, I only eat around 75 weekly rotating meals. They've got more than that even--. 100. The meals are always fresh, never frozen. You're ready to eat them in two minutes. Head to factormeals.com/tws50off.

And use code TWS50OFF to get 50%. off your first Factor box plus free breakfast for a year. Offer only valid for new Factor customers with code. and qualifying auto-renewing subscription purchase. Make healthier eating easy with Factor. [THEME MUSIC]. Man, those guys-- you know, it really was. There's interesting.

Ivan was-- was suggesting that, oh, no, there may be a method to this madness. And I think Adam, probably a lot more like what. I was thinking-- he's like the, strategically, we can pull Russia. And I think Adam would be like, nah, I think he just might be fucking that guy. I think he's just that guy. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: I think he's just--. I think he just wants this shit. And he wants to put his name on it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: And it's never good when. the method is white supremacy. JON STEWART: What--. I like, though, he's like, there are. some fears that people have--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes. JON STEWART: --about, obviously, birth rates and--.

and demographics. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. What could have given you that impression? JON STEWART: Did either of you watch. the panel that-- that Adam hosted at Davos. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah, I wasn't able to watch the whole thing. But man, he's got to have ice running through his veins. Like, it was--. JON STEWART: He's just like with Lutnick, like, what are you doing? What's Greenland about? What's wrong with you people? GILLIAN SPEAR: And just, the silence. after Lutnick's answer of just everybody up there, like--. Adam's like, I think we need to talk about Greenland. Lutnick-- no, we don't. He was like, no. JON STEWART: What do you mean, Green--.

Greenland? Why would you even bring that up? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. How random. JON STEWART: It seems irrelevant. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: I love, though, that during the panel-- like, you watch the various people on the panel, like, almost like they were watching. a TV show, too, where it's like the highs, and lows, and the suspense. And they're all, like, locked in. And then they-- and then-- you know? GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah, all that was missing. was the popcorn, truly. JON STEWART: Yes. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It's so rare. when you see a panel that's actually going to break news. You're like, oh, shit. JON STEWART: Well, it's going to--. I mean, when Trump shows up-- and by the way, for those of you who haven't seen the Macron, it's bananas.

He's got on, like, aviators. And he looks like a social chairman. at, like, a fraternity. And he's just up there like, all right, man. We're just going to-- here's the thing. We're going to take on fucking Theta Chi. They're going down. Fuck those guys. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. Senioritis at its finest. JON STEWART: Come on. Kappa rules! GILLIAN SPEAR: Kappa forever, baby. JON STEWART: Yeah. Like, it was-- I--.

I couldn't figure out, like, what kind of shit. they give somebody to battle jet lag. And then I'm like, oh, wait, he doesn't have jet lag. He came in from France. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Like an hour, yeah. Yeah. Apparently, he's just high. JON STEWART: I mean, it's hard not to think something's going. on behind-- you know, most people don't wear the glasses. inside, unless you're, like, fucking. yay or something like that. GILLIAN SPEAR: [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: That it's-- you know, it doesn't make. a whole lot of sense. GILLIAN SPEAR: I mean, who could. blame him for doing some drugs right now, you know? JON STEWART: Oh, you're not kidding. Well, the real news is going to be, obviously,

Wednesday when Trump shows up there, and the circus is in town, and you know. And right now everybody is still on the American side. going, you know Trump. This is what he does. You know, he-- you know, he goes there with a big ask. And you're like, right. But his big ask is-- or the thing that he's saying. is I'm going to take over an allied country militarily. Like, that's different than staking out. a broadly-winning position. Like, that's the antithesis of everything.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: You know him. He just-- he just loves to weave a yarn. Yeah, he's like-- [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: He's going to start-- he's going to throw. the invasion out there. But you know, he'll settle for a 10% raw Earth materials. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. I saw Tillis, who'd actually been critical of him, was saying--. I think earlier today, he was like, to be clear, I'm not criticizing the president. I'm criticizing the people that are giving. him this advice on Greenland. JON STEWART: Yeah, fuck Tillis. Fuck all those guys. We don't even have a Congress. Congress is now a vestigial tail.

It is a neutered cat sitting on a windowsill. watching the world go by. They are useless. And I know that, as soon as a Democrat gets in office again, they will rear their powerful heads again. But right now, they are embarrassing themselves. on a world stage, truly. GILLIAN SPEAR: Preach! JON STEWART: Fuck them. Fuck them. Did you see the Danish MP? The Danish MP goes, (DANISH ACCENT). I will say this in a language Donald Trump understands.

Fuck off. And I was like, dude, he nailed it. He pronounced that complete-- and then. he said it again in Danish. So now I know how to say fuck off in Danish. GILLIAN SPEAR: Well, everyone loves. to learn curse words in foreign languages, you know? It's the first thing we all learn when we take Spanish. So--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Who shows that to Trump? Like, you might want to see this. JON STEWART: Imagine doing that to the Danes. And by the way, the Danes-- every time--. I used to host this thing called The Warrior Games. It was always like-- it's like Invictus but obviously for,

you know, more like US. It was always the US-- so, like, Marines, Navy, Air. Force, Special Forces, Army. And then, like, Canada had a contingent there. Australia had a contingent there. And then the only other contingent. that was consistently there, Wounded Warriors. hurt in Iraq and Afghanistan--. Denmark. It was the one country that was there every time I hosted. And I hosted it maybe seven times. Every single time, Danish men and women. who had suffered grievous battlefield.

injuries defending the interests of the United States. of America. And now we're like, yeah, fuck those guys. We're going to take Greenland. GILLIAN SPEAR: We want it. Yeah, because they joined us when we invoked Article V. And now we're going to go Article V against them. You know, it's-- you love to see it. JON STEWART: Yeah. All right, what have we got, Britty? Anybody-- anybody want to know anything? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes. First up, Jon, be honest with us. We're fucked, right? There's really nothing we can do to stop. the damage Trump is doing. JON STEWART: Nope.

Disagree. Disagree. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh. JON STEWART: Disagree. Hard, hard pass on that. No, this-- you-- what? No! I'm not saying he's not going to do grievous damage. But isn't that what you do after a devastating storm? You rebuild. You put in the work. And you make some changes to the grid. And you say, like, you know what? Maybe we shouldn't bury all the electrical wires underground. near the salt water. Now we're going to put them somewhere else. where they can be protected.

You know, we'll make changes. We'll do things that will-- now, that is not to say that that's happening a week from now. And it could be catastrophically like-- but we. forget through the arc of history. where it's like, you know, after the Civil War, they had what? Reconstruction. Now, it didn't last as long as it could have. Because they decided to appease the South. And so reconstruction went the way--. and Jim Crow soon settled in. So even the rebuild doesn't necessarily always.

go the way you want it to go. But-- but fuck, man, no! We can't-- no. That attitude-- no. Hard pass. No. 100% disagree, like the guy says. on a-- on the-- the subway, who I love. That guy's-- I love that guy, Kareem. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah, shoutout to Kareem. Aw. JON STEWART: No. Fuck that. Anything that he does can be redone and done better. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: So the lessons here is patience. JON STEWART: Yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: This, too, shall pass. JON STEWART: 100-- no, not patience. But-- but like, it's going to take-- yeah.

And the harder we work now, the faster this will be over. That's all. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: OK. JON STEWART: Now I just got tired. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: From your lips to God's ears, man. JON STEWART: Yeah, no, I hear you. It's a fucking-- it's a tough time. What-- what else we got? What else we got? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Jon, do you think. Sean Hannity and Jesse Watters defend. Trump out of genuine belief? Or is it more about personal financial gain? JON STEWART: I think sometimes one blends into the other.

I think, when you wear a mask long enough, you start to believe you're that character. And-- and you do start seeing everything through that filter. It's-- it's-- it's one of the interesting things. about, like--. like, actors that are method. Like, you play a role long enough, and it's kind of hard-- like, am I Frazier? Or am I Kelsey Grammer? Like--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Like how Austin Butler. just kept that accent for, like, two years after Elvis? [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: Gillian, that's perfect.

That's-- that's the perfect-- that's the perfect analogy, you know? So Hannity's, like, kind of a normal radio host. He's like, I'm on the right. Combs is on the left. And now he's just like, look at me. I'm 60. And I take martial arts and defend whatever Trump says. Like, you know-- it all-- it all falls apart. GILLIAN SPEAR: Ick. JON STEWART: Ick. What else? Last one-- BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Last one. Jon, I aspire to be a comedian, but I'm really anxious. and overthink. How do I become confident?

JON STEWART: Oh, that's never going to work for comedy. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: [LAUGHS] Never the two shall meet. JON STEWART: We're-- we're unneurotic. Come-- come into comedy and learn. a healthier way of living. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: Wait, this person is-- say it again. They're neurotic--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Anxious and overthink. And they want to know how they become confident. JON STEWART: You don't! BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: You use-- that's your superpower. You're anxious, and you overthink.

I can't think of a better starting block. for becoming a comedian. That's like somebody saying, like, you know, I'm 6' 11" and have an unbelievable vertical leap. I'm thinking of becoming a basketball player. But what can I do to-- to change to enable that? Like, you're anxious, and you overthink. All you need to do is just start writing some of that. shit down. Translate it.

No, I look forward to watching your specials. That's what I say. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Aw, that's very sweet. JON STEWART: That's very sweet. How do these people get a hold of us on these socials? What do they-- how do they-- what do they do? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Twitter, we are @WeeklyShowPod, Instagram, Threads, TikTok, Blue Sky, we are WeeklyShowPodcast. You can like, subscribe-- again, you can subscribe--. and comment on our YouTube channel, The Weekly. Show with Jon Stewart. And a special shout out to Instagram's. newest user, the official Instagram of Jon.

Stewart, @JonStewart. JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah, I--. I joined Instagram. It's-- it's been lovely. I think, third day in, I just took a--. I just took a picture of my dog's poop and put it on there. GILLIAN SPEAR: That was a jump scare. I'll be honest. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: No, I just want to give people. a sense of what's coming. I can't even tell you how much preferable it is to Twitter. Like, every time I went on Twitter, I was just like--. I-- it's like, you would-- walked.

into a room of sociopaths--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Of literal Nazis. JON STEWART: And like, they were all waiting for you. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes. JON STEWART: And-- and this has been, like--. there's pictures. It's pleasant. You get, like, funny Reels, like--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: So far, nobody's, like, been vicious. or any of the-- like, what? I was like, what is happening? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: You're having fun with it. JON STEWART: This is-- this is actually pleasant. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Good. JON STEWART: So I've--.

I've enjoyed it so far. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: You're crushing it. I don't know if you saw, but you. have-- all of your famous followers are falling in line. We've got-- you've got Timberlake coming in. You have-- Mamdani followed you. JON STEWART: Justin Timberlake? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah, Justin Timberlake. JON STEWART: Really? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: He's looking at your dog shit. right now. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] JON STEWART: You know what? No, don't-- you know what? I don't want to know. Because I don't want to get self-conscious. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh, yeah. JON STEWART: Now I'm going to-- now-- like, before I post dog shit, I'll be like, but the mayor of New York--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: --would be watching that. GILLIAN SPEAR: Believe me, the mayor of New York.

sees a lot of dog shit. [LAUGHS]. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: There you go. JON STEWART: You know what? But that-- it might be a thing where I'm like, this is his day off. Do I need-- do I need, on his day. off, to show him what he's walking to work in every day? Fantastic. Well, as always, guys, thank you so much-- great job. Our team couldn't do it without them-- lead producer, Lauren. Walker, producer, Brittany Mehmedovic, producer, Gillian. Spear, video editor and engineer, Rob Vitola, audio editor and engineer, Nicole. Boyce, executive producers, Chris McShane, Katie Gray.

We will see you guys next week from Greenland. [THEME MUSIC]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy productions. [THEME MUSIC].