Trump’s Domination Politics with Fareed Zakaria | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

FAREED ZAKARIA: Most people don't realize, they talk about Venezuela having the largest oil reserves. in the world, $300 million. You know where that number comes from? Hugo Chavez, one day, tripled the estimate of Venezuela's--. Chavez is a bit like Trump in that way. He likes big numbers. JON STEWART: We're not getting the good numbers? [THEME MUSIC]. Hello. Welcome back to The Weekly Show podcast with Jon Stewart. My name is Jon Stewart, and we have been gone. God knows how long we've been gone.

I can tell you how long we've been gone. I'm back at my podcasting desk, and there are, it would appear. to be, three dead insects. You would think that I would have come up here. and cleared those out, but I took a nice break. But, boy, did the world not. There is so much going on that is dispiriting and needing. of framing, and I'm delighted to have. Fareed Zakaria, who is gonna be joining us on the show. So much of this is about, what exactly is the theory of power.

for this Trump administration? Is there anything that we can figure out that gives us. a coherent, directional worldview as to where. these guys are going, or is it just literally big fucks small? I think it's more complicated than that. How does Iran and Venezuela fit into all that? All these different things, we will try and run through. and get some through line that could maybe help us feel. slightly less vertigo from what we feel,

from the bouncing around between, we are going to invade Greenland. And also, is that delicious oil? I think I'm going to have to take over your country. and drill it. This fella used to come on the old Daily Show constantly, and I haven't been able to talk to him in quite a bit, so I'm delighted to have him on the program. today, Mr. Fareed Zakaria, host of CNN's Fareed Zakaria GPS. [UPBEAT MUSIC].

And so, folks, in a world that has so many, now, plates spinning in the air and a constant stream of what. appear to be really close to cataclysmic events. and catastrophes, we bring in a gentleman who's. been doing his program, keeping an eye on all this sort. of thing for 18 years now, Fareed Zakaria, host. of CNN's Fareed Zakaria GPS. And as we spoke earlier, you were the most frequent guest.

that we had on The Daily Show, back when I still. had to work every night, which, god bless, you figured that early on, Fareed. FAREED ZAKARIA: [LAUGHS] Well, it. was a huge pleasure, honestly. But you asked me to do it when I was very young, and it was based on my first book, actually, which was all about illiberal democracy, democracies where elected leaders start to abuse the rule.

of law and individual rights. In those days, I was talking about places. like Pakistan and the Philippines, not the United States of America. And it was a huge pleasure. And, of course, it leaves me wondering, what happened, Jon? What, am I chopped liver? Why have you forgotten me? JON STEWART: Oh, let me tell you what happened. So I disappear for nine years, raise a couple of kids, and then I decide to come back once a week.

I don't have time for any guests. I don't. If somebody shows up in the office, I don't--. FAREED ZAKARIA: Now, you got to look young and hip. and I'm old news. JON STEWART: Somehow, I think this face--. I'm ready to play Tevye in Fiddler, I mean, with this face. FAREED ZAKARIA: You'd be good. JON STEWART: None of this is working. Fareed, what a great way to jump into it, which is, you make your bones on this idea. of illiberal democracies and all the ways in which.

these more authoritarian rulers use the mechanisms of democracy. to create systems that are actually eroding. it and corroding it and the infrastructure of it, to the point of somewhat of a collapse. And you jumped my first question, which is, are you. seeing now the things that you viewed in the Philippines? and I don't want to be alarmist or hyperbolic, but, boy, it's hard not to view this country.

as-- the polite way to would be, I guess, we are now a subsidiary of the Trump organization, which would. look at it more benignly. And the less benign way would be, they've been using these illiberal techniques in test. kitchens in the Philippines and all kinds of other places, and now they've brought this new McRib to the United States, and they're applying it here. FAREED ZAKARIA: Look, there's no question that that's true.

When I was writing about it, when I coined the phrase. illiberal democracy in '96, '97, I was looking at places like Pakistan, the Philippines, Slovakia, Turkey under Erdogan. You could begin to see it happening. And I always thought that this is not gonna affect. the developed world as much. I did, actually, in my book, have a chapter or two about. America, but I thought it was sort of like a tendency, a danger that we were becoming too enamored of the idea.

of these charismatic leaders. But what I didn't expect is that. the institutional framework of Western democracies. would be as fragile as it is. And in this case, actually, the United States is in worse. shape than other places. JON STEWART: Explain. Explain that. We're in worse shape than things like Pakistan. and Slovakia and Turkey? FAREED ZAKARIA: No, no, no, no. JON STEWART: No. FAREED ZAKARIA: More than in places like in Europe. JON STEWART: I see.

FAREED ZAKARIA: So look at Giorgia--. JON STEWART: I see. FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah. Giorgia Meloni comes to power in Italy, and she's a fire-breathing, right-wing populist, but she's contained by the institutions, so her policies have actually not been as radical as people. thought they would be, partly because there are lots. of institutions, both within Italy and within. the European Union, that--. and she's basically not torn them up. In the United States, we have the oldest constitution. in the world, which is great in many ways, but in some ways,

it's kind of old fashioned. So, for example, our Justice Department does technically sit. entirely under the president. That is not true in Europe. All their justice departments are independent agencies. So what that means is that what we developed after Watergate. was a set of norms. The president wouldn't ask the attorney general. to prosecute certain cases, but those. are all just norms that we developed after Watergate.

And Trump just broke them all. And he just said, look, there's no law. that tells me I can't do this. Similarly, he's correct when he says, there's no law that says my kids can't do all the business. they want and take advantage of the fact. that they're my children. All these things were norms. And what has turned out is that we. need more actual laws that constrain. executive power in particular. And the challenge here is the Supreme Court.

has become so pro-executive power that I. think we're in a very bad fix, because you. can see the problem. As you described it, the Trump presidency. is basically knocking down norms, in many cases, violating laws. The TikTok ban should have been implemented. It was a congressional ban. JON STEWART: That was a law. Congress made it a law. And he's done rescissions. He's pulled money back. So that's my question to you, because we talk a lot about how.

Trump has blown past norms. Or let's say Meloni goes into Italy, but she's more constrained. But I think what Trump is demonstrating. is that even these laws-- it's not so much that the system has. been constraining individuals. It is that the individuals themselves. believed in that system as being the most viable and most. stable and most productive. It would be the most prosperous. It's one of the reasons why America has done so well, because by laying out rules of the road and adhering to it,

we've earned credibility and trust. that we weren't going to be ruled by the whims of mercurial. and volatile leaders. Trump, I think, has made a different choice. I think he's shown the weakness of liberal democracies, almost not in norms, but by the idea that if you control--. What did he say about the Supreme Court, when the Supreme Court came in and said, you can't do that.

And what was his response? How are you going to enforce that? It's worse than, oh, he's blowing past--. it's why I wasn't so bothered by, oh, he fired some inspector generals. When he blew past norms, I soft pedaled it. This is a different thing that is now being accomplished. This isn't about norms. It's exposing the weakness of the enforcement mechanisms.

of the laws that a powerful executive. just decides to ignore. FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah. And that is, in some ways, at the heart of the problem. of the American Constitution, because I would argue that one. of the things that the founders really could not have imagined. was these political parties that are so loyal to the party. and to the president as the head of the party.

that they completely abdicate their institutional loyalty. to Congress. So Madison always believed that congressional power would. always be a check on executive power, because Congress wants to retain. its own self-interested--. for self-interested reasons, retain power. No. Mike Johnson is happy to be the errand boy to Donald Trump--. JON STEWART: Of course. FAREED ZAKARIA: --because at the end of the day, he knows that the way he's gonna stay in power. and get elected is by being Donald Trump's errand boy.

So if you have a system like that, you actually don't have the checks and balances. The checks and balances are completely notional. Or similarly, as you point out with the court, I think what Trump is doing, for example, on the tariff. case, is a fascinating use, again, of this kind. of illiberal democracy, because he's intimidating the court. and saying, we're doing this for national security. We're getting tons of revenue. All these deals have been done. You will undo the whole reputation.

and a set of relationships. I have deals I have made. Well, yes, but what you did was plainly unconstitutional. I mean, literally, it is in the Constitution, in a line, not by implication or inference. There is a line that says foreign commerce. will be regulated by Congress. Tariffs were regulated by-- and by the way, they knew what tariffs were. This wasn't you the reason we had the American Revolution. was tariffs.

When people talk about the Tea Party, what was that? That was a tariff, which they called. a tax and a tariff interchangeably, on tea coming in from Britain. JON STEWART: And the tariff was paid by Britain. and not the American people. FAREED ZAKARIA: Right. JON STEWART: And it raised so much money, and we were so powerful. FAREED ZAKARIA: But by the way, that. means the whole American Revolution. was a misunderstanding. JON STEWART: Absolutely. FAREED ZAKARIA: If only we had realized that we, in America, were not paying the tariffs.

It was the poor Brits who were paying it. And why did we revolt? JON STEWART: That's right. It was making America great again. FAREED ZAKARIA: Again. JON STEWART: It is not hard for me to foresee a world that even. if the Supreme Court says those tariffs are unconstitutional, that he will not get rid of them, or Congress, which is now a vestigial organ, will just say-- or they may do a different thing and say, certainly, they control the Senate. and they control the House, and they could pass them if they.

wanted to, but they abdicate responsibility. because they don't want to go on record for anything. FAREED ZAKARIA: But I don't think he'll do it, Jon, because I think your inspector's general point is. an interesting one. So he comes in for day one, he fires. all the inspectors general. JON STEWART: Right. FAREED ZAKARIA: Now, congressional law. allows the president to fire the inspectors general, but there's a procedure in the law, which is you have. to give six months notice. There has to be--. JON STEWART: He didn't follow procedure. FAREED ZAKARIA: There has to be a specific charge of complaints. against each inspector general, and he.

fired them all without cause. I think that for Trump and for the people around him--. and I think this is very much part. of the heritage 2025 project. It is important as an act of principle. to violate these laws, because they. believe these laws are incorrectly. constraining executive power. So I think what Trump will do is, he will deliberately not. go to Congress to get congressional authorization. because he wants to make the point. that I, as president, am going to retain the right to do this.

And it'll be some made-up jumble of emergency, national security--. The lawyers can argue anything, and he'll come up with--. But if you look at the way in which he handles. the rescissions, as you said, it's. absolutely clear that you can't just stop spending. money that Congress gave. But the one-- JON STEWART: But he did. FAREED ZAKARIA: Right? JON STEWART: Right. FAREED ZAKARIA: Because they want. to make the point that we think all these constraints. are bullshit. We, in the Executive Branch, can do whatever we want.

What I'm puzzled by is, do the Republicans going along. with this not realize that one day, there will be a Democratic president? JON STEWART: But I think what they believe. is that-- because you will find that Congress. suddenly grows a spine again when a Democrat takes office. I think what they're not understanding--. and maybe they think that a Democratic president won't push. this to the extent that he does--. is that final step to that which is what we were. talking about earlier, which is, you. and what army, motherfucker?

Like, how are you going to enforce this? And that's where I think the line is being drawn. in the most dangerous place. FAREED ZAKARIA: It's the Andrew Jackson line. You remember, when the Supreme Court. ruled in favor of the Sioux Indians. who were being displaced-- JON STEWART: Or Cherokee. FAREED ZAKARIA: --Andrew Jackson. is supposed to have said, Justice. Marshall has made his ruling. Now let him enforce it. JON STEWART: That's exactly right. And Stephen Miller has made this case explicitly. He's gone out and he does that.

Whenever he talks, I always imagine, like, dark clouds start to arise over there. and, like, the theme from The Exorcist starts playing. But his point is, hey, we see the world as it is, and the world belongs to the strong. And I want to talk about-- it's a more generalized theory. of power because right now, they're trying to find. a coherent governing philosophy that they can sell,

the Donroe Doctrine or these different things. We're going to strengthen our hemisphere, and that's what makes America great. and all these different things. What I believe they have decided. is a more old-school theory of power, which is coerced compliance is ultimately. better than alliance. That common cause alliance will not. get America the prosperous future that coerced compliance.

will get us. And you see it everywhere. We're going to get Greenland, and we're. gonna do it the nice way or we're. gonna to do it the hard way. So even if he strikes a deal to buy it. or to do these other things, it is obviously. at the point of a gun. We'll tie this all together, because I have something. I want to ask you about in terms of Iran and Venezuela. with all of that. But would you say that the bet they are making.

is that one, that we want to take the world back. to those systems where might makes right, if you have. the larger Navy, you get to take it, and just blindly ignoring how volatile. and violent and ultimately unsustainable. that kind of world was? FAREED ZAKARIA: Absolutely. [BASS GUITAR MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Hey, folks, we got a new one here.

We got a new little sponsor here that's going along, and it involves rent. I don't know how many people out there, who are listening. to this, pay rent, but judging by the numbers. that I read in The Wall Street Journal, it's a shit ton. There's a ton of people that are out there paying. rent because apparently, homes themselves, not so affordable. So this a really interesting idea. It's kind of a great idea. It's creating a rewards program around rent. You're going to be paying the rent anyway.

And in this year of our Lord, 2026, if you're paying the rent without a bill, you're missing out. It's a loyalty program for renters, and it rewards you for just paying your rent. You live there. You got to pay your rent, but now you can earn points, and they can be redeemed for flights and hotels. and Lyft rides and Amazon, or whatever it is that's on there. that you can get credit for. Starting in February, a Bilt member--. you can earn points on mortgage payments for the first time. as well.

So it's quite a program. You can redeem the Bilt points even. towards your next rent credit, or even, like, a down payment on a home. Really, kind of a great idea, paying rent. It's better when you use Bilt. And soon, owning a home. is gonna be better with Bilt as well. Join the loyalty program for renters at JoinBilt.com/TWS. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com/TWS. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you.

[BASS GUITAR MUSIC]. FAREED ZAKARIA: So I mean, most people. don't realize what a sharp break that took. place in international relations after 1945. If you look at the 100 years before 1945, you see that every two years, there's a war of conquest, there's aggression, there's annexations. I mean, France and Germany went to war three times. between 1850 and 1945, right? JON STEWART: Right. FAREED ZAKARIA: Twice, they dragged. the whole world into it.

The shift, then, from 1945 to this rules-based international. system, you know, that the United States, basically, was Franklin Roosevelt's dream and Harry. Truman implements it--. and what you have since then is remarkable. There's almost no war of conquest that is taking place. There's almost no annexations, so almost none of that. has taken place. Of course, there have been violence and conflicts, but it's a remarkable break. And why did it happen? It's because the United States was conceived off.

a system that was not this traditional realpolitik. law of the jungle. It was, let's try to create a world in which everyone. has an incentive for peace. Let's create an open economy so everyone can grow and prosper. And they have this much more dark, you know, Machtpolitik--. it's, like, the 19th century German. view of how to be powerful. And the only thing I would point out. is, it didn't do so well for the Germans.

JON STEWART: But America created. that world 80 years ago. Now, that world wasn't perfect. Mistakes were made in terms of how liberalized. globalization was and how you balanced your industry. with other things. But it was remarkably successful. But in their vision, that world, the 80 years post World. War II, were the sucker's bet for the United States,

that we are the victims, first of all, that we. are the victims of that. We were the most prosperous country out of anybody. during that time. FAREED ZAKARIA: And remain the most prosperous. JON STEWART: And remain the most prosperous. But the second thing is, we fucking created it. That was our design, and they're. acting like that is the world that was created. to take advantage of us. GILLIAN SPEAR: Right. Trump said the European Union was created. to screw the United States. We basically encouraged the Europeans.

to come together because we didn't. want them to fight wars again. We thought that they would understand. the advantages of commerce, and it worked brilliantly. But the point you make, Jon, which is very important, is that the whole mega premise is that the United States has. gotten screwed over the last eight years, and particularly. the last 30 or 40. Here's the data. About 25 years ago, US and European wages. were roughly the same. Today, US wages are 50% higher than European wages.

About 15 years ago, the eurozone economy and the US. economy were the same size. Today, the US economy is 70% larger. than the eurozone economy. If you look at one company, NVIDIA, it has a higher market capitalization than the. entire German stock exchange. So it's like, what world are you talking about? The United States is more dominant today. than it has ever been. We have some issues with inequality and things.

like that, but those are issues of redistribution. JON STEWART: Yes. FAREED ZAKARIA: How do we organize and divide the pie? JON STEWART: But not of prospering. We've created more wealth. FAREED ZAKARIA: We've thrived in this world, and we've got the dollar underpinning the world. To me, the fascinating thing is that the whole vision. is premised on decline, decay, sclerosis. Even the Venezuela thing, as you say, what they want to do.

is go from being the global hegemon that. set the rules, that created the system, that. maintains the system, to, like, a regional bully. We give up to Putin, Ukraine. We give up Asia to China, and we get to boss. over Venezuela and Mexico. Isn't that great? And it's, like, such a shrinking of American power. JON STEWART: And also, what it says is, this administration believes we will be more prosperous having.

total dominance and a more colonial view of South America. and removing Europe and what we gained from that alliance. And even the ridiculousness of-- we. need to take over Greenland so that Russia and China. don't take over Greenland. You're like, isn't that what NATO is for? We formed an alliance with--. It's like saying we will fight alone to control South America,

instead of fighting with all of our allies. to have a mutually beneficial position in the entire world. And how is that more prosperous for us? FAREED ZAKARIA: Think about the difference--. as you say-- you put it right, that they think. coerced compliance is better than the kind. of messiness of this alliance between democracies. JON STEWART: Because it's zero sum. They have to have a zero sum. FAREED ZAKARIA: Right. So look at the coerce compliance. We have something like 50 treaty allies in the United.

States, and most of them are the richest. countries in the world, the Europeans, Japan, Australia. China has one treaty ally, North Korea. Let's throw in Russia and--. JON STEWART: That's really true? FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah, yeah. That is the only treaty ally they have. JON STEWART: I thought they had trade treaty allies, though. They do have--. FAREED ZAKARIA: But not defense. You know what I mean? JON STEWART: Not defense. I see what you're saying. FAREED ZAKARIA: And let's throw in Russia. and let's throw in Iran. JON STEWART: Right, right. FAREED ZAKARIA: Think of that.

Like, they've got 3, we've got 50. JON STEWART: Right. And we want to keep that up. We want to piss them off. So I mean, we can have Greenland, which we already have. Basically, we have a base there. We could put more bases there. It's as though they think that alliances are weak. It's better for them. It's the same thing they're doing. with immigration in the United States, rather than trying to--. are they really trying to tell Americans.

that the best way to get criminal, undocumented people. in this country out of this country is to show up in force, at a target, wearing masks with guns? They want that feeling of the boot on the neck. For some reason, the goals that they want. are so much more easily accomplished. if they didn't have that sense of,

we must dominate and humiliate if you are our foe, including if you didn't vote for him. FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah, the theater is very important. As you well know, Obama has probably still deported. more people than Trump. In other words, if you look at it month to month--. JON STEWART: But they did that-- it was a different--. they did do it at the border. FAREED ZAKARIA: Exactly. And they did it in a very different way, but that's my point, which is, in one case, they were almost trying to minimize the theater.

and maximize the effectiveness. In this case, they're actually trying to maximize. the effectiveness, even if the numbers aren't what they-- they. want to show that this is--. JON STEWART: They've got quotas. FAREED ZAKARIA: Right. I also think back to your Greenland point. It's a very important thing to understand, that their view of wealth and economic growth. is weirdly old fashioned. So they think, like, Greenland has minerals in the ground. It has all this stuff. You can always buy them.

You can always lease them. The idea that the country that has minerals in it, underneath its soil, is gonna be rich as Croesus--. it's like, if that were true, all of Africa would be rich. Think about Israel, South Korea. JON STEWART: It is a colonial mindset. FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah. These countries have nothing. And what do they have? They have smart people. You can always buy this stuff from around the world. Think about the oil revolution in America.

The Chinese kept going around Africa. and trying to lock up oil and natural gas deals. The US did technological innovation. and invented fracking. And it turned out, ours was a much more. successful thing because it's fundamentally knowledge driven. In theirs, they've got to make corrupt deals. with African dictators. In a weird way, Trump is more like that Chinese mentality. Let's find-- that's why he loves the Venezuela case. JON STEWART: And a colonial mentality. It is a king's mentality.

And the strange thing about it to me is, think about the damage you do to our world standing. by going in and taking the resources from Venezuela, to get more oil, right? Who's the largest oil producer in the world? It's us. It's already us. But what are we doing when we push that? We're sending a message to the world that--. it's sort of like the old Peaky Blinders thing. Big fucks small.

If you're big, you can do this. So here's what we may be trading off. We get to take a bigger cut of Venezuelan oil. And China looks at that and goes, oh, well, then I guess we get to take a cut of quantum chips. in Taiwan. And what do you think is gonna be more. important in the modern world? What's the trade off for us, Fareed? FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah. I mean, one way to think about what they're doing here.

is for Trump, it's clear--. I just read this book, The Gods of New York, which. is about New York in the '80s. You'd love it, actually. It's a really fascinating--. JON STEWART: It's when I moved here. FAREED ZAKARIA: And Trump is a huge character in it. Look, even then, every time he did a deal, his absolute imperative was, how. do I squeeze everybody in every possible way. to screw them and get the best deal I can for myself? There was never a thought about,

instead of a transaction, how do I build a relationship? JON STEWART: That's right. FAREED ZAKARIA: And any really great businessman. will tell you, businesses are built. not on a single transaction, but on you. building a relationship. JON STEWART: And he burns bridges like nobody's. burned bridges before. FAREED ZAKARIA: And this is what he's doing with this--. in each of these tariff negotiations, his point is, I'm gonna screw you. I'm gonna squeeze you. I'm gonna get that, you know? And there's something sort of strange about not realizing. that American power, since 1945,

has been built on this unique thing, that we have built so much goodwill. and trust among the richest countries in the world. International relations theorists. all predicted that at some point Germany will go nuclear, Japan will go nuclear. They're too rich. They're too powerful to allow their foreign and defense. policy to be subcontracted to the United States. But it never happened, and it never. happened because we were honorable. about saying we're taking everyone's. interests into account. And as you say, we made mistakes and all that.

But compared to other great powers that dominated. the world, the United States has. been remarkable in having this enlightened self-interest. And it took 80 years to build that level of trust. And my great fear is that, as you say, for, like, almost. misguided notions of economic wealth, we're squandering it, because what are we gonna get? First of all, the Venezuelan oil is a bit of a mirage.

Most people don't realize-- they. talk about Venezuela having the largest oil reserves. in the world, $300 million. You know where that number comes from? Hugo Chavez, one day, tripled the estimate of Venezuela's--. Chavez is a bit like Trump in that way. He likes big numbers. JON STEWART: We're not getting the good numbers? FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah, well--. JON STEWART: And it's also apparently. not the type of grade of oil that's easily got. It's much cheaper to-- it's not something that even. the oil companies like. I don't know about that stuff.

FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah, yeah. I love those classifications. And the stuff we produce is called light sweet. JON STEWART: Ah. FAREED ZAKARIA: And theirs is heavy crude. JON STEWART: Who wants that? FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah. But also, right now, they're exporting. 1% of the world's petroleum. They are 21st in-- so they're gonna be able to do more. But the whole idea of some gold mine-- which. is why the CEO of Exxon, in front of the television. cameras, tells Trump, Venezuela is currently uninvestable,

which means if you want us to invest, the US government is gonna have to give us guarantees. This is the new form of capitalism. that we're embracing. JON STEWART: And you saw Trump's response. to that was, everybody wants to be a part of it, but I think I'm gonna cut Exxon out of it because they were. too glib with their answer. And what I don't understand about the MAGA movement. or the Republicans right now is that somehow they believe, as poorly as maybe some of our institutions.

had performed over time and the kind of reform that they needed. and the various things, is that replacing that. with the whims of a mercurial megalomaniac and malignant. narcissists is the key to a more stable and prosperous. American future. [BASS GUITAR MUSIC]. Rocket Money. Are you still paying that OnlyFans subscription you. told your wife you'd cancel?

I feel you. You know what you need? Rocket Money. You're paying for subscriptions you don't. even remember signing up for. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find. and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, helps lower your bills. so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money. You can track your subscriptions. Cancel with just a few taps. How many of you--. I am losing money left and right on these--. Rocket Money is the thing that can set you straight, that can get-- how many of the cars.

you don't drive anymore still have satellite. radio, for god's sakes? Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at RocketMoney.com/GWS. That's RocketMoney.com/GWS. [BASS GUITAR MUSIC]. MAGA is steeped in, kind of, the mythology. of American creation, and they're. really going in hard on it. JD Vance says the heritage American is really.

the most important American. They have more say in this land. We're not a creed. We're a people, right? But the Constitution very clearly says, no, I. think we're actually a creed. And that creed is the consent of the governed, that we are given unalienable rights by a creator, and those rights carry weight in whatever governing. system that we place in there. And this is the thing they fetishize.

They put it on their buses and they--. "Don't tread on me.". And they've got the Gadsden flags and all that. They're clearly, though, giving fealty to someone operating. utterly outside of that system. But here's where I think it really gets interesting. Other countries-- we exported that people. want to govern themselves. And when you go in and you start. to exploit their resources and do it.

explicitly so or say we're d--. what you unleash in the people that you are exploiting. is a cycle that we have seen play out. numerously through history. And I'll use Iran and Venezuela as the example. It's a 70-year cycle. In Iran, think of this as The Lion King. It's the "Cycle of Life," Fareed. FAREED ZAKARIA: [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: So in Venezuela, we just started the cycle.

We couped the leader. We arrested him. Whether that's justified or not, we'll save that for a different day. We're gonna go in, and we're gonna take their oil. People would say, like, oh, Americans don't want that. That's like Iraq. It's not like Iraq. It's like Iran. In 1953, we and British Petroleum. did the same thing in Iran. Mosaddegh, we removed him. And what did we do? We replaced him with a pro-Western leader, and we got all those resources.

And how long did that system hold up for? 1979. Because the resentments that we created within that region. exploded into-- it's the reason that the mullahs. were in power in '79. And now the mullahs rule with their iron fist, and now they're in the cycle, where they're about to turn. over that country. And what's gonna happen then? My guess is the Western powers or somebody's. gonna come in and install somebody else, and the cycle--.

How do we not see that? How do we not see that what we are starting in Venezuela. is going to sow the seeds for the volatility. and danger that we had already sowed in Iran in 1953? We're just repeating the same stupid cycle. FAREED ZAKARIA: You know, for the United States, for America, it's always been very hard to understand. other people's nationalism. In other words, we are very proud nationalist patriots.

JON STEWART: Right. GILLIAN SPEAR: But then, when you go to Vietnam. and they're like, we want our country, we just don't understand that. We're like, no, no, no, we we are gonna. give you a better system. We go to Iraq, and they're like, get out of here. And we say, no, no, no, you don't understand. We're gonna set up a very wonderful. democracy, where the Shias and the Sunnis will live together. And I actually, as an immigrant, think we do mean well in many of these cases, but we seem to have no understanding that other people.

have nationalism, too. There was this famous moment-- it may have been apocryphal--. when Mountbatten, the last British viceroy, is talking to Gandhi. JON STEWART: You know I love a good Mountbatten anecdote. Throw it my way. FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah. And he says, Mr. Gandhi, if the British just leave India, it's going to be chaos. And Gandhi looks at him and says, yes, but it'll be our chaos. And that's what I think most people don't understand.

sometimes, is that people prefer. their own chaos to a foreign-imposed peace, a foreign-imposed order. And what Trump is doing is actually. igniting nationalism and anti-American nationalism. in places that have really never had it, like Canada, like Denmark. JON STEWART: It's incredible. FAREED ZAKARIA: You know, like, the Nordic countries, like Sweden. I mean, I'm talking to these people, and you can feel that underneath, they're trying to be polite.

There is a deep resentment at the way they are being treated. And what are we doing this for? I mean, that's, to me, the most bizarre part. We're creating all these enemies out of allies. For what? For, like, the notional idea that we'll. have more bases on Greenland, which we could have had anyway? JON STEWART: I think it's the kind of thing--. and nationalism is-- there's so many connotations about that, that some people view differently. I think what we're missing, which is so strange, again,

because of how much we just lionize our own origin story, people yearn to breathe free. Self-determination is inherent in the human condition. And I don't understand how we believe. that so deeply in our bones for our story and yet. somehow think Venezuelans don't feel the same about themselves.

They may not like the Chavism. They may not like Maduro. That election may have been screwed. But they want the ability to determine their own future, not. this paternalizing. We would never accept it. FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah. And in fact, even in Venezuela, I. think it's important for people to understand, Chavez was hugely popular.

He won the first election absolutely genuinely. JON STEWART: Well, that's the difference between him. and Trump--. FAREED ZAKARIA: It is. JON STEWART: --these populist movements. FAREED ZAKARIA: And the truth is, there are a lot of people. who still believe in Chavez. So that's one of the reasons why this could get very--. if they actually try a regime change, this would be very, very complicated, because there are still, first of all, a lot of people with guns who are not. gonna give up power easily. But there are also a lot of believing Chavez followers.

And then there's drug traffickers and cartels, so the whole thing is much more complicated, which is why the sad truth is, this is probably going to look. like, essentially, the most expensive arrest. in human history, of Maduro, which got rid of him, got American oil companies some concessions into Venezuela, and left everything else intact. The entire repressive apparatus of the regime, the defense minister, the interior minister,

will all stay exactly as they are, because otherwise, you're opening a Pandora's box. JON STEWART: And we're jumping into--. one of the things that creates such instability in South. America and Central America is our interventions. into their politics. It is what created a lot of these more. extreme left-wing movements. So now they bounce back and forth. between right-wing authoritarian strongman. and left-wing authoritarian strongman.

And the thing that prevented that type of pendulum swings, which is the type of thing you see in like Pakistan, where it. it'll go from a military junta to a corrupt kind of democracy. to back, it's kind of that cycle. What prevents that is our system of constitutional checks. and balances. And what we're saying is we'd like to throw that out to get. a system more like theirs. They're setting the United States up for that.

FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah. So the really interesting question, Jon, that I would put to you is, I mean, if you assume all the things we're saying are true, the part that's most difficult to understand for me is why. are Americans, or at least 40% to 50%. of Americans, OK with this? You have a situation where it's absolutely clear that one part. was a party that the president right now is accumulating. powers on a scale that no president has.

done in decades, maybe ever. You have a situation where laws are being violated, norms are being violated. You have a situation where he's intimidating the court, intimidating the Federal Reserve. And yet he doesn't lose much support from his base. And I think he's decided he's governing for his base. And so what it leaves me thinking is, is about half.

the country really OK with illiberal democracy, with the idea that it's OK to abuse. individual rights, minority rights, separation of powers, all that? And what does that mean for the future of democracy, if half the country doesn't really. believe in liberal democracy? JON STEWART: No. They believe in. it's OK if it's our guy. You know, look, this is all very Lord of the Rings, you know? Everybody believes in liberal democracy. until they get to hold the ring, and then suddenly, it's a very different scenario.

But when you say--. FAREED ZAKARIA: And to be fair, the left has also. done this sometimes, you know? JON STEWART: Of course, but not nearly to the extent--. FAREED ZAKARIA: Not nearly. JON STEWART: --and never to this. FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah. There's no both sides-ism. But it always worried me when Biden. would do these student loan waivers using executive power. Just because you want the outcome, you cannot want the outcome so badly. that you violate the processes of liberal democracy. Like, that's the whole point of liberalism.

and liberal democracy, which is that the process is. very important. You don't get to just make your policy happen any which way. And what Trump is showing you is the real cost of that. JON STEWART: But I think there's also something. to be said about, look, the system that we have in place is. so complex and Byzantine that in many ways, there is always a clause or something from the Sergeant. at arms or whoever might jump in there, or the parliamentarian, to prevent us from doing anything.

But it's also complex enough that if you. really dig down into emergency powers, you could do anything. FAREED ZAKARIA: Correct. JON STEWART: The difference is, generally, it. has been at some level of consensus. and not at the whim of an individual, and a mercurial one. at that, with absolute silence and no pushback, even from those in his party who would disagree.

This is an absolute, utter takeover of the apparatus. of a political party. And you asked why they would go along with it, and the reason is because they believe that the left is. the enemy, not that they are a competing sort of worldview. or any of those other things, that they are an enemy. They are their enemy. And the dopamine hit that they get--. this is an algorithmically driven kind of--.

Look, populists are popular for a reason. They sell a story of you being forgotten. and of a country in decline and of a people that have. been abused and victimized. And this man, what does he say? I am your vengeance. I will fight for you. And they don't give a shit how he does it. or how punitive he is. And if that means threatening to arrest the Fed chair,

so be it. That guy's corrupt anyway, and he's our enemy. And so this plays to the passions. and prejudices of your base. And that's how it's all done. Look, they're selling a story, that the reason why eggs are. expensive is because some Somalis in Minnesota. fucked with the Medicaid program, not that we spend a trillion dollars on military equipment,

soon to be $1.5 trillion or not that we subsidize corporations. and they suck a lot of the prosperity out of this country, and they don't distribute it in any way. within the country in any way that resembles fairness. None of that matters to them, Fareed. And so until they think there's some--. what's the-- I guess I would put that question back on you. What do you think they think the peril is, some larger goal. of constitutional bureaucracy?

Why wouldn't they love him? He's basically saying, if you're for me, you can go to the Capitol and beat the shit out. of a policeman with the flagpole of a Confederate flag, and I will praise you and pardon you. But if you try and block a street. and you clearly don't have any idea what you're doing,

we can shoot you in the head. So why wouldn't they love that? FAREED ZAKARIA: What your point makes. me think about is the degree to which maybe, during the Cold. War, American politics was constrained, was disciplined by the reality of the ideological contest. between the Soviet Union, the need for America. to be this beacon of freedom and democracy. There was a sense in which--. Hubert Humphrey once said this, that he thought that the reason.

for the civil rights movement was-- there. was a foreign policy reason. We had to show the Communist world. that America was, in fact, the shining city on the hill. JON STEWART: Oh. FAREED ZAKARIA: And since then, I think what's happened. is honestly, we have no competition. We've become so powerful. It's exactly the opposite of the MAGA narrative. We have no check, no constraints. So I think at some level, like, the power.

has gone to our heads. And the power has gone particularly. to somebody like Trump's head. Look at the way he treats other countries. The only reason you can do that is because you're so powerful, you're unconstrained. You don't have to worry that they're gonna. go over to the communist side. Like, there's something here that feels very much like it's. about the arrogance of power, the ability. to act in unconstrained ways. And I kind of wonder whether the reason--. when we were powerful in the past, there was this check.

There was this sense in which you had to put. forward your best front. JON STEWART: Boy, this is now--. OK, this is very interesting to me. [BASS GUITAR MUSIC]. Hey, folks, it's quince time. Now if you're like me, you generally. wait until Fashion Week to purchase. your clothes for the upcoming year. because you want to be on trend. You'll see me in Milan, sitting next to Anna Wintour and Bad.

Bunny, watching the-- all right, maybe we won't do that, but the point is this. What'd you get for Christmas? Ugly sweater? No gift receipt? Today's sponsor, Quince, helps you forget about all. the fashion nightmares. Quince, they bring together the premium. materials, the thoughtful design, the quality. You stay warm, you look sharp, you feel your best. Each piece, made from premium materials by. trusted factories that meet rigorous standards. for craftsmanship and ethical production, but they cut out the middleman. I don't like middlemen.

Do you like middlemen? Maybe you're a middleman. Maybe you do like middlemen. But you cut out the middleman and you cut. out the traditional markups. Quince delivers the same quality as these luxury brands. at a fraction of the price. Suck on that, Anna Wintour. I probably shouldn't have put it that way. That seemed a little aggressive to Anna Wintour. I didn't mean it like that, but you. know what I'm talking about. Take that, Anna Wintour. Probably a better way to frame it. Refresh your winter wardrobe with Quince. Go to Quince.com/TWS for free shipping.

on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada, too. That's Quince, Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/TWS. Free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com/TWS. [BASS GUITAR MUSIC]. The idea is, when the battle was democracy versus communism, we almost had to-- it's sort of like, hey, man, your parents are coming over. You're gonna have to put on a suit and tie.

You can't look sloppy if you're trying to get this job. So we had to live up to some of the ideals, or at least the ones that we thought. were in bold, to demonstrate to the world sort of our vision. or our version of--. You remember, during that same time, we put "In God we trust". on the coins, to separate ourselves. from the godless communists? FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah, yeah. JON STEWART: So we had to demonstrate. that our system actually was--. So rather than our actions being a sort of function.

of absolute power, maybe it's that the worldview right. now is not communism versus capitalism, but woke versus unwoke. The idea is multiculturalism versus singular monoculture. and that now, we have to demonstrate not the higher. values of the Constitution, but we have to demonstrate,

I guess, a more violent form of sorting. And the reason why we're not mad at Russia. is because we view them through that prism. They're white and Christian, and they're. defending Western civilization, not in the sense that we think. of the Enlightenment, but of a more. Orthodox, white Christian version of that. FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The cultural divide that has developed now. is one in which I think for somebody like JD Vance, Russia,

actually, the good guys, right? JON STEWART: Right. FAREED ZAKARIA: As you say, they're white, they're Christian. And in fact, Putin often makes the point of--. Putin is culturally a neoconservative. I mean, he's against all the licentiousness. of Western liberalism. So, by the way, is Xi Jinping. JON STEWART: And it's why they don't like Europe. Europe's too, like, gay-- FAREED ZAKARIA: Exactly. JON STEWART: --and atheist and-- right. They don't want any part of that. FAREED ZAKARIA: Exactly they worry. that the kind of acids of Western liberalism. will change their societies as well.

And so in many ways, the Russians and the Chinese. are not just balancing against the West geopolitically, but they're balancing against them culturally, because they don't want these forces. of modernization and liberalism to infect their societies. But the twist now, compared to the Cold War, is they have allies within the West who feel the same way. This is what's so different about this moment, whereas we've faced adversaries in the past, we've faced ideological adversaries, geopolitical ones,

but what's strange is we now, have within the West, very. important, strong forces that kind of agree with our enemies. And that's what makes it so difficult. to navigate foreign policy. Because you watch Trump on Russia and Ukraine. And it's pretty clear, everyone tries to find some rationale. He hates the Ukrainians. He likes the Russians. He hates Zelenskyy.

He likes Putin. Zelenskyy is the guy who got him. impeached in his first term. His solution to peace is, I'm gonna squeeze Zelenskyy, try. to get the Ukrainians to make all the concessions they can, hand it over to Putin, and claim peace and say, hey, I got peace. Can I please get the Nobel Peace Prize? His problem so far is, Putin wants more, right? This is a very strange moment for the American president. to be acting not as the lawyer for the embattled European. democracy, yearning to breathe free,

but for the dictatorship that is the aggressor. That, I think, has never happened. JON STEWART: But, Fareed, if you. look at it through the prism that you're talking about--. FAREED ZAKARIA: The cultural one, exactly. JON STEWART: The cultural one, but also in terms. of the one that you were talking about when. the battle was democracy versus communism. and we had to demonstrate democracy, well, if that's not. the battle anymore, then we don't have to demonstrate. that democracy works. But this is where I think it gets darker, that it means.

that the actions that are being taken. are not the whims of a mercurial maniac, but are much more purposeful, that changing. it to department of war is much more purposeful. Not backing Ukraine is not necessarily about, well, they never got the dirt on Biden that I wanted. It really is about, no, no, no, no, no, we're. not the great Democratic leaders,

like the people that we lionized in the old days. We are now Putin, Netanyahu, us, Erdogan, and Xi Jinping. And that is what we are demonstrating, because now. we can police the purity. I mean, I don't know if you've seen. some of this Homeland Security iconography that they're using. One Homeland, one of you, all of them.

Like, it is so--. at this point, it's not even implicit. of fascist iconography. It's just a direct translation. FAREED ZAKARIA: And so much of it--. I don't know if you've seen this-- is like '50s nostalgia. They have photographs of old cars and pristine beaches. And it's so fascinating because the whole thing. is the politics of nostalgia. There's this one moment where Nikki Haley and her trying.

her best to do a MAGA imitation, when she was. running, tweets something like, wasn't life so much. simpler when we were growing up? And I was thinking to myself, so when would that be? Like, so if you put it, roughly speaking, I think, for Nikki Haley, it would be the mid-'70s. JON STEWART: Right. FAREED ZAKARIA: And they're like, OK, the United States--. JON STEWART: The oil embargo. FAREED ZAKARIA: --in the mid-'70s-- right. We lost our first war in history. The president was impeached--. JON STEWART: Watergate. FAREED ZAKARIA: --and had to resign. 100 American cities were engulfed in ruinous race riots.

Oil prices quadrupled in one day. The economy was so bad, we had to create a new name. for it, stagflation. JON STEWART: We had "whip inflation now". buttons we had to wear--. FAREED ZAKARIA: Right. JON STEWART: --and parade around. FAREED ZAKARIA: Those were the happy halcyon days. I think there's something fascinating about it. I think we have an evolutionary need to forget. bad things that happen. And we remember the past in a kind of misty-eyed way. or something.

JON STEWART: I think nostalgia is-- one of the things. that Nikki Haley or any of those people-- and I've always. said this, is when people say, like, it's never been like it. was when I was a kid, and you're like, right, because you were a kid. You were a child. The reason why you loved the world then. is, all you cared about is when that ice. cream truck was coming by. FAREED ZAKARIA: That's right. Like your parents paid the rent. JON STEWART: Right. That's all you gave a shit about. So of course that's nostalgic. And it's so fascinating because it's--. Like, Elon Musk either tweeted this out or, like, reposted it.

or did some shit, but it was literally that exact thing. you were talking about. It was 1950s Rhodesia, and it was a picture in black. and white of, like, this pristine, you know, suburban-looking-- and, you know, South Africa. And it was the chaos and darkness and all that. And you're like, you do know, in Rhodesia, how they got. that, right? Like, do you understand? And I used to think, like, oh, they're hypocritical.

They don't understand how. Now I realize, no, they're saying this. is how we do it, colonialism. You take it by force and you extract those resources. cheaply, and that's how you create--. and you police who gets to be there, and you can create these utopias. FAREED ZAKARIA: When I saw that--. I know the tweet you're talking about. JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah. FAREED ZAKARIA: And I saw that, and I thought to myself, Elon Musk is so smart, but it's a perfect example of how.

these tech geniuses somehow seem to either lack. any sort of historical understanding. or any common sense. Like, you look at those pictures and, as you say--. You know, my reaction was, you do understand. that that world on the left that is that beautiful Rhodesia. was true for, like, 3% of Rhodesians. who were white who were tyrannizing. the 97% who were not.

And that's why you could live like that. JON STEWART: That's right. FAREED ZAKARIA: The same is true in South Africa. And by the way, I grew up in India, where if you had looked at the British enclaves. in Bombay and Delhi and Calcutta and Madras, they looked gorgeous. But if you went and looked at rural poverty in India, you know, looked at where all the money was being extracted. in a way, I mean, it's sort of weird to me. that somebody as smart as Elon Musk. would not think to himself, how did this come to be, you know?

JON STEWART: But it's not even how it comes to be, because that would entail an empathy. for those that have been exploited, and they don't roll that way. What I'm saying is, they believe that's the way. we should do it. If we have the opportunity to exploit to our benefit, we should do it. I think what it's missing is the realpolitik of it, which is to sustain that level of exploitation.

requires a tremendous amount of resources. And the further away you do it from your center of power, the harder it is to hold the forces of entropy and chaos. from exploding. And that's the thing. I don't even want to appeal to their moral center. I don't think it exists. I don't think they look at Rhodesia. and think, oh, that probably was.

a little fucked up for the other people who lived there. But what they're not taking into account is how. unsustainable it is, because-- let's go. back to the Constitution--. people want to be free. They don't want taxation without representation. They have rights, and they are going to fight for them. And if you're the one holding them back, you're the one they're gonna fight. FAREED ZAKARIA: And, you know, understanding that.

and building a foreign policy that was. based around this idea that--. Take Latin America. We went in, we exploited it. We toppled regimes, and then we came to realize. the point you're making. So for the last 40 or 50 years, really, ever since the Latin American debt crisis of the 1980s, both parties decided, let's have a different. approach to Latin America. Let's partner with them. We'll figure out a way to help them.

restructure their economies. We helped them transition. Almost every Latin American country in the early. '80s was a military junta. They all became democracies by the '90s, with. the exception of Cuba. That whole process of partnering, integration, cooperation, you know, law enforcement cooperation, drug cooperation, ended up making. the United States much more influential in Latin America. You know, Mexico now is half a middle-class society.

There's no migration from Mexico into the US. anymore because there are jobs there. All these good things happened, but it points to the dilemma. you're describing. This is complicated. It's messy. You have to treat countries that are really not. your equal like your equal. You have to give them respect and defer to them sometimes. And yet it works. It has worked miraculously well.

We're throwing that all away for this much. older version of power and coercion which doesn't work. It's sort of a weird thing, right? There was this caricature, which. is that everybody in America thought that if China kept. doing what we were saying, China. was gonna become like America. But what's really happening is America. is becoming more like China. We are becoming admiring of China's methods. of running the economy. JON STEWART: Right.

State-run capitals. FAREED ZAKARIA: Controlling the population of buying mineral. rights around the world. It's like we are becoming them. JON STEWART: And it's such a strange bargain for a country. like ours to make that has so benefited from a world order. that we ourselves created. And the subterfuge of coups--. not only is it exhausting, not only is it. sort of undercutting the values by which we think we stand.

for, it's not sustainable. And it's s much more volatile system. And by the way, a constitutional republic. is not really the best system by which to graft. an imperial leader onto. So let's say he builds his giant fucking. ballroom with all the gold trimmings. and he knocks down the wall. Like, the next guy can just undo it, because that's how--. you know?

And when you start going into these systems. that they're setting up of resentment, I don't know that we're going to be able to get that back. I don't know how other countries would. be able to trust us, knowing that one person who just. decides to push it as far as you can push it. can just come in and-- what did Trump do, pulled out his 60 treaties the other day? FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah. You know, it's something that's true in personal life as well. Like, real, deep abiding trust takes decades to build.

It's a lot of hard work. Rupturing trust is very easy, exactly as you say. Because after this, every European country, every Canadian, the Australians, they always know, the Americans could do this again. JON STEWART: Right. FAREED ZAKARIA: So I kind of have to hedge. I kind of have to have an insurance policy. I kind of have to have a way out at some kind. of diversification.

And that's the tragedy. We had been so reliable that the world never thought, that our allies never thought they needed an insurance. policy, that they needed to hedge. against our becoming crazy rogue imperialists, and now they do. [BASS GUITAR MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Look, the holidays are over. You got crushed. Let's face facts. Christmas gifts. You got crushed. Why? Why do you have to buy for everyone? You just bought them last year, and it all adds up.

Luckily Mint Mobile here to help. you cut back on overspending on wireless this January. I don't even want to say it. I don't even want to tell you it's too good. 50% off unlimited premium wireless. Mint Mobile's end-of-the-year sale still going on, but only. until the end of the month, which is January, so get on it. Cut out big wireless's bloated plans. and unnecessary monthly charges with 50% off. 3, 6, or 12 months of unlimited,

the nation's largest 5G network, high-speed data, unlimited talk and text. You can use your own phone. God, how much more do you people want? How demanding. What is wrong with you? Mint Mobile plan. Bring your phone number. This January, quit overspending on wireless with 50%. off unlimited premium wireless. Plans start at $15 a month at MintMobile.com/TWS. That's MintMobile.com/TWS. [BASS GUITAR MUSIC].

Fareed, where do you see, you know, when we talk about-- so as we change the world order. and we align ourselves more with that idea of, like, the strongman, spheres of influence, those kinds of things, the trade-offs. that we make within that, who is. the leader of the free world? Because if we're the ones that are going into countries. and dictating who can be their leaders, which we're doing--.

they've said it explicitly, Venezuela. can have a new leader, but they have to meet this requirement. So that's not a free election. What then is the world order? Is it literally us, China, Russia, some smaller strongmen. that also get to assert their spheres of influence. and their things, a completely rotted EU that has no power? Like, where does Canada, Australia, the EU-- where.

does the bloc that we led--. what becomes of that? FAREED ZAKARIA: We are leaving them leaderless. We are leaving them disunited and leaderless, precisely because their strength came from being part. of a whole, right? They individually-- many of them are pretty strong, you know, the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh largest. economies in the world. JON STEWART: Right. FAREED ZAKARIA: But what gave them the power.

was that we were all together. We were united. So we'll end up in a kind of multi-polar world which is like. the 19th century world, very unstable, very volatile, prone to war, miscalculation, except this time, we have nuclear weapons, so not a happy scenario, also, not a world in which freedom has. as much capacity to expand. And to my mind, what is strange about all of it is,

we took something where we were at the center, where we were. the rule setter, where we were the agenda setter, and we've turned it into something. where we've got this little box of the Western Hemisphere, which is, by the way, the least important. of the three main regions, in terms of even our own trading. Our main trading partners are in Europe and Asia. But I tend to think, Jon, that maybe it's just, again, I'm an optimistic immigrant. This is not gonna last.

This is not gonna last. You know, Americans don't like this, I don't think. I think the idea that America stands for nothing, stands for no higher ideals, the idea. that the United States is just a bully that it's going. to literally consciously emulate. the ways of old-fashioned imperialists, that it's gonna essentially become. a version of Putin's Russia, I don't think this is popular. I don't think people like it. I think that we are going through a bad phase.

in American history, and I think at some point, the fever breaks. And I think the problem is, we will have done damage. JON STEWART: Well, I've been hearing that for a very, very--. FAREED ZAKARIA: I know, I know. JON STEWART: --long time. FAREED ZAKARIA: I know, I know. And this is why I said to you, to me, the biggest puzzle is that the fever hasn't broken, but sometimes these things takes longer. JON STEWART: Because it's too flattering to, I think, that nostalgia that you talk about, to a group of people.

that feel-- and by the way, many of them. feel rightfully let down that the systems that we talked. about that created the prosperity in the world did. leave them behind, and our system was. not fast enough to catch up. And we did have a problem with not gaining. control over immigration. Like, none of these stories are completely. invented out of whole cloth. The thing I worry about is the narrative that we're describing. is one that makes perfect sense to what.

we observe in the world. Let's take Minneapolis as an example. I look at that video and I see something. very different than what--. I mean, when the president of United States, an hour afterwards, just comes out and says that's a domestic. terrorist who's--. that was a terrorist attack trying to murder an ICE agent, and I'm like, mm, pretty sure that--. You know, someone said, like, she. was a well-trained operative in a domestic terror attack.

And you're like, well, someone's trained in that, but it's not her. It's the officers. They're the ones that are trained. They're the ones that-- it seemed like, getting back. to our point, there were a lot of different ways. that they could have accomplished deescalating. that situation beyond killing the person, but they chose that, and it was a choice. But what I saw on that tape--.

I see people criticizing liberals saying, so it's OK that she tried to murder that agent. And you're like, no, we're not saying it's OK that she. tried to murder an agent. What we're saying is, from what we saw, that's not what she was trying to do. But we have two different interpretations. So my view of what we doing in the world--. I wonder, do they view it as, see, America is back? FAREED ZAKARIA: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. JON STEWART: And that's how they digest it.

It feels alien to me. It's surprising that someone, an authoritarian move. like Trump's, normally a populist, is more popular than he is. FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah. I mean, and that's the hope again, that he's governing to his base, which is doing very well. But he is losing the the majority, not a huge majority, but it does--. I mean, his approval ratings are. in the high 30s at this point.

But what you have to hope, then, is that the next Democrat or, honestly, frankly, a Republican, like, a John McCain-type Republican. would come up and say, look, we're proud of the things. we've done. We're proud that we were the richest country. in the history of the world. We were also the most generous country. in the history of the world. And I want to save the lives of the poorest people in Africa. If I can do it at 1% of the federal budget, great.

Sometimes I worry that Democrats are too scared. to make the argument that there's. something honorable and noble about the kind. of things we were doing. JON STEWART: Oh, I think they're too scared. to make almost any argument at this point, and they don't have the wherewithal. And I think what I see in the Trump administration is--. I think at times, they even have some worthy goals. But when they have a choice, you know, Trump says, we could do it the easy way, or we could do it the hard way. I think what they like is doing it.

the hard way, because the hard way is a way of showing power. FAREED ZAKARIA: Exactly. JON STEWART: There is a way for them. to do immigration enforcement in this country that doesn't. involve beating the shit out of people in Target parking lots. FAREED ZAKARIA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, by the way, that is the place. that Democrats should be. Because as you say, the Democrats. totally mishandled immigration over the last 10 years. JON STEWART: Right. FAREED ZAKARIA: Biden-- yeah, it was a disaster. You don't want to be supporting massive illegal immigration. It's wrong.

It's bad, right? And so the question is, how do you get at this? JON STEWART: That's right. FAREED ZAKARIA: And is there a way. to do it that is more consistent with our values. and yet is very effective and very hard lined? And I mean, look, as a legal immigrant, I in particular. don't like the idea that you can cut the line, as it were. But there's a way to do it that's. consistent with our values. JON STEWART: There's a sense that, yeah, if people are. murderers and rapists and all that stuff. and they're still in the country, yeah, get them-- like, overwhelmingly,

Americans support that. And if that is what they were trying to accomplish, they could do it. But in the manner that they're doing it, it's almost as though they want the confrontation. and they want the provocation. And so everything is done in the most egregious manner they. can possibly think of because they want the fight, and that's what you said. And that's what makes me think, oh, you know what? This isn't even incompetence.

This isn't mercurial whims of a dictator. This is the plan. FAREED ZAKARIA: Right. JON STEWART: What their end game on that is, I don't know. FAREED ZAKARIA: And it's sort of the opposite. of what the whole point of liberal democracy is. This is kind of like highly mobilized societies. charged to find internal enemies, and it feels very different. Like, the whole point of liberal democracy. is, you live in your house, the government. respects your privacy, and nobody interferes with you.

You go out. You have your wonderful private life. Civil society builds. That's what it used to be, and that's. what the whole idea of capitalism. and liberal democracy was. JON STEWART: The craziest thing to me has been watching. the "don't tread on me" crowd flip over. to you obey and you comply. That's what the founders want. Like, it's just--. FAREED ZAKARIA: An idealization of state power. JON STEWART: That's right.

FAREED ZAKARIA: You know, that the president. should be the one doling out--. I'm gonna give NVIDIA this contract. I'm not gonna give it to Exxon because he wasn't nice to me, and now the Swiss can have lower tariffs because they. gave me a gold bar. I mean, that is state power of a kind. that no president has ever wielded. JON STEWART: It was only 20 years ago, maybe 25 years ago, that Francis Fukuyama wrote. the end of-- what was it? FAREED ZAKARIA: The End of History.

JON STEWART: --The End of History, and that democracy, liberal democracy in particular, had triumphed over history. And now--. FAREED ZAKARIA: It looked like that at the time. It's funny. The thing about life is-- you know, this is what gives me hope, Jon--. nothing stays the same, right? JON STEWART: Yes. FAREED ZAKARIA: So that's what we have to hope. JON STEWART: To the ramparts! Fareed Zakaria. Fareed, thank you. Boy, what a lovely chance to catch up. I've really enjoyed it. I hope I get a chance to see you again.

Fareed Zakaria, host of CNN's Fareed Zakaria GPS. Good luck over there at CNN. I don't know who's buying it next, but I hope that they believe in you. and that you stay on and keep going. FAREED ZAKARIA: From your lips to god's ears. JON STEWART: All right. Well, actually, we haven't talked in a while, but I'll see what I can do. Fareed Zakaria, thanks for joining us. FAREED ZAKARIA: Pleasure. [UPBEAT MUSIC].

JON STEWART: Fareed. I haven't seen him in a dog's age. He was the most frequent guest on The Daily Show. GILLIAN SPEAR: You can see why. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: I wonder what happens when they sell CNN. Do they sell it for parts? Does he get just left out on a curb. and then anybody can drive by and just pick it up? Like--. [LAUGHTER]. GILLIAN SPEAR: Just a sign, a piece of paper that says "free". on it? JON STEWART: Yes.

Yes, yes, yes. GILLIAN SPEAR: Works well. LAUREN WALKER: Or they just start shutting parts down. Like, remember CNN+? That was a moment. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh, god, yeah. JON STEWART: They did that for, like, a week. And then they were like, fuck this. This seems like it might be hard. And then go, I really like--. I don't even know who's gonna get it, but the President--. Trump is like, I'll decide who gets to buy it. And you're like, sure. I think that's how business works. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Totally. JON STEWART: Basically, two people come to the father. and say, I would like it. It's like Solomon. I'll cut CNN in half, and then one of you can take it.

LAUREN WALKER: Yeah, and then the father basically says, you have x amount of time to make it worth my while, you know? JON STEWART: Right. You got to make it worth my while, and you got to change it so that every time I turn it on, it makes me feel good. And that's the only thing that works. By the way, I thought it was interesting that-- you know, I came into it with sort of the idea that, oh, we're being led. by this sort of mercurial--. and they're following the whims, and I don't know-- but I did leave thinking, oh, this is a darker, deeper plan.

GILLIAN SPEAR: There does seem to be, like, a unifying theory, weirdly, which is--. I mean, I think it goes back to what you said, which is big fucks small. You can see it from what's going on in Minneapolis. to what's going on in Venezuela. It's the one thing that seems to unite. it all, which is just, like, this dick swinging contest. JON STEWART: But it's big fucks small, but it's in regards to, it's not just a theory of power, it's a theory of returning to a more colonial. economy, an extraction economy of those weaker economies.

and your country being more homogeneous. Like, there is actually now metrics rather than just, oh, we have more weapons, so we can take what we want. Like, but why are we doing? LAUREN WALKER: I also think something that you touched on. that I can't get my head around is, like, the ideological malleability of MAGA. Like, two seconds ago, it was America. first, a type of isolationism. And Steve Bannon, who was the mouthpiece, partially, for it,

is now saying, well, there is that Western exceptionalism. for isolation. It's like, oh, OK. JON STEWART: There's a lot of exceptions to go along there. But I think the larger point is, it is a return to great homogeneous, heritage-based powers extracting. the resources they need from the unwashed masses of lessers. Like, I think it's that dirty and dark in a lot of respects.

And what they don't understand is the fresh hell. that they've unleashed, not just. morally, but in terms of stability. and their ability to manage it. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah, we're going. to miss the post-war world order when it's gone. JON STEWART: Yeah, they're gonna--. I kind of like that. You're gonna miss this world order. You know what? Maybe that's the way to go here. Why don't we just fucking guilt them into this? We worked very hard on that world order. You're gonna miss it when it's gone. It's a terrible, terrible thing. Now, we've been gone forever.

While we were gone, was the audience. still active in some way? Were there things that they-- or are we done? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Absolutely. JON STEWART: All right. What do they want? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We've got loads of questions for you. JON STEWART: All right, let's do it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: First up, Jon--. JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: --Bill and Hillary Clinton. have announced that they won't comply with the subpoena. from the House Oversight Committee's investigation. into Jeffrey Epstein. Do you think that they should comply? JON STEWART: I absolutely do, but why should they. comply if the Department of Justice.

is not complying with releasing the files? Like, is compliance a kind of specialized. individual, Indigenous opportunity, or should it be universal? I mean, the Department of Justice. has subpoenaed them to testify in the Jeffrey Epstein case. while not complying with releasing the files. So how does that comport in any? But do I personally think they should comply? Abso-fucking-lutely. Absolutely.

And if they've got something to hide or nefar-- like, yes, we should know about all this. This is bonkers, how long this is going on. LAUREN WALKER: And we have only seen such a fraction. Well, I think I was reading, it's, like, 2 million. files still to come out. GILLIAN SPEAR: It's 1%, is what I've seen, yeah, like, that we've seen. JON STEWART: And the casual nature in these emails. are like, hey, can you get me an Indian and a redhead? Like, they're just casually-- it's literally like they're. ordering from Uber Eats.

GILLIAN SPEAR: And the spelling errors. It's humiliating. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: The grammar. LAUREN WALKER: That would bother Gillian the most. GILLIAN SPEAR: These people, you think they're Titans. of the world, but they can't--. I mean, they can't type on a BlackBerry. JON STEWART: The grammar police have also indicted--. GILLIAN SPEAR: The grammar police. are doing more here than--. JON STEWART: No, I think that's wise. But absolutely, they should comply. And the Department of Justice should comply.

And these victims of this heinous case. should finally get some of the justice and peace. that they deserve, for god's sakes. Fucking thing. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Next up, "Jon, which one do you like doing more, The Daily. Show or The Weekly Show?". JON STEWART: Oh, that is an excellent, excellent question. LAUREN WALKER: Awkward. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We're all listening. JON STEWART: Any time you can do something in your house--.

[LAUGHTER]. If they would let me do The Daily Show from my house, it may have the edge. [LAUGHTER]. The whole thing is just per-- you. guys know that generally, when I'm not. doing this show or The Daily Show, that I am in a state of stasis, where the charger is unplugged. and I sit quietly, not talking to anybody for five days. So I love the interaction of all of it.

It helps. I spend all the rest of my time, when I'm not doing that, reading articles about. how not to get Alzheimer's. And the only way to do it, apparently, is to continue collaborating and being around people. and engaging in the world. And this is the manner by which I choose to do it, and you are the people that I love doing it with. So that's-- BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Aw. JON STEWART: Nah. GILLIAN SPEAR: Take that, Daily Show. JON STEWART: Yeah. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Boom. LAUREN WALKER: That was the takeaway. JON STEWART: Well, I meant both. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. Cut that. I'm taking it. JON STEWART: But I will say, the commute to The Weekly Show. is much preferable. [LAUGHTER]. GILLIAN SPEAR: It's pretty good. JON STEWART: They got any more? Any more for us? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. "Saw you joined Instagram, Jon. Does that mean you're through with Twitter? Sorry, X.". JON STEWART: I did join, but I'm not really. sure what to do with it. LAUREN WALKER: No one else is. JON STEWART: Unfortunately, I joined it,

but then I was like, so now what do I do? And then I was like, so I have to take a picture if I want. to put something on there? Like, you can't just write shit. You got to take a picture, so I haven't used it yet. But I did join it, and I am going to put something there. I'll probably, like, put our stuff on there and Daily Show. stuff on there, and maybe figure out some other shit, if I could figure it out. But yeah, Twitter's rough, man. Like, there's only so many times that I say something.

random on Twitter, like, where I can be told I'm a Jew, where. you're just like, hey, this is getting a little, like, I know. I'm aware. Like, not hiding. It'd be OK if you don't have to jump on and tell me. Like, and the thing I don't--. And by the way, Instagram could be the same fucking thing. I have no idea. It just seems like a slightly less. toxic environment than the one that appears to have developed. But you guys are on it. What do you think? GILLIAN SPEAR: Just toxic in a different way.

LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: Well, I think people. are gonna tell me I'm a Jew on both platforms, and I'm that. I mean, the nice thing for me is, my life is relatively drab, so there will be no posturing about the fabulous, you know, fabulosity of all this. So I feel no pressure in that regard. As you guys can see-- we were laughing about it earlier--. by the way I dress and look, like, I gave up about 17 years ago, so--. GILLIAN SPEAR: I'm sure there's some thirst.

traps on the camera roll, waiting, waiting for their moment. JON STEWART: Yeah. Listen, thirst traps-- I don't even--. I shower in my clothes now. It's bad. Gillian, are you on? You're on Instagram, too, yeah? GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah, I'm on Instagram. I'm not on X, the everything app. I love myself too much for that. JON STEWART: The people are--. it's fucking wild, man. And you really-- like, you just think to yourself, like, I really do hope, actually, this is a Russian bot. Because if there's a human being out there who really felt.

the need in their day, like, seconds after I. posted something, to just jump on there and be like, I'll never forgive you for the rally to restore sanity. You're like, what's your life? GILLIAN SPEAR: The good news is, it certainly is a Russian bot. JON STEWART: What's your fucking life? They all are Russian bots. LAUREN WALKER: Well, I can't wait to see. your Instagram aesthetic. JON STEWART: Oh, well, it will be a lot. like my Pinterest boards. It's gonna be mostly Ann Taylor. [LAUGHTER].

Is that still a company? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes, it is. JON STEWART: All right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Great sales. JON STEWART: Is it? All right. I thought that was a reference from a while back, but I wasn't quite sure. Well, guys, it's so good to be back with you. and to get my Alzheimer's medicine for the day. And we'll move there. But as always, great preparation, great work. So lovely to have you guys back. Lead producer, Lauren Walker, producer, Brittany Mehmedovic, producer, Gillian Spear. Video editor and engineer, Rob Vitolo, audio editor and engineer, Nicole Bois, and our executive producer, Chris McShane and Caity Gray.

Thank you guys so much for rejoining. us after a lovely break, and we shall see you guys next week. [UPBEAT MUSIC]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. [UPBEAT MUSIC].