Trump 2024: The Patriotism Paradox with Jon Stewart, Mona Charen & Laurence H. Tribe

JON STEWART: I care less about how he acts as a person, like as an asshole. I think he's just not competent. I don't think he has the attention span to be competent. But January 6 changed even my calculation. of the damage this cat can do. [THEME MUSIC]. Hey, everybody. Welcome to The Weekly Show podcast. My name is Jon Stewart. We have less than one week to the election, and I think I speak for everybody when I say--. [SCREAMING].

I really hope that, that did not kill you on the microphone. I tried very much not to do that close. enough to the microphone that would cause any of you pain. I don't know what's going to happen. I am doing the thing that I swore I was not going to do, which is neurotically clicking on every single possible, this is how this map could go on, this is how this map. I'm looking up local news in Hazleton, Pennsylvania.

I'm losing my fucking mind. But I'm not going to fall into the trap. It's one day. We're going-- we have to work at this every day, no matter what happens. I'm just going to keep telling myself, it's not just about one day. But everybody out there, I feel like the country is lit up. People are going to get out and vote. They're going to knock on doors. They're going to do all the things they can possibly. do to protect this thing. And it's been a-- boy, it's a wild closing moment.

And I got to tell you, seeing that rally that Trump. did in Madison Square Garden--. I've spent a lot of time in Madison Square Garden. since I was a kid. Seeing the Knicks, seeing the Rangers--. and I got to be honest, I got to tell you, almost every time I'm in that building, somebody brings up the 1798 Alien Enemies Act. I mean, it's just-- it just always happens that way. You just-- you're cheering for your team, and then somebody will go, "Hey, what if we interned a giant group of people,

many of them Americans, because I've ginned. up fear about them?". So that's-- so it wasn't unusual for me to see that. on the floor of The Garden. God. I wanted to get into a little bit today, this idea, it's just a strange thing to watch the flags flying, and the don't tread on me, and the patriotism, and then Trump gets up there, and he just clearly shreds.

the idea that he has any love or understanding. of the Constitution of the United States of America. And we're going to have two guests that are going to come. on discuss it, and actually, oddly enough, we don't do this very often, at kind of a real dichotomy. of political views. Mona Charen, who is the Policy Editor of The Bulwark, which is a conservative internet presence, and she's a conservative columnist. She's been that for a long time. And Laurence Tribe, who is just a legal lion. and as I'm sure you'll be able to tell, liberal.

He's liberal. But we're going to talk a little bit about just how. in the hell we got to this place, where the symbols. and icons of the Revolutionary War. are being used to prop up a guy who. clearly, as he begged the Supreme. Court to give him absolute immunity, would like to be king. And we'll get into that right now. [THEME MUSIC]. So to get right to it, with less than a. week to go to the election, we're delighted to have.

our guests with us. Mona Charen-- Policy Editor at The Bulwark. and host of Beg to Differ podcast, and Laurence H. Tribe--. Harvard University Professor Emeritus. By the way, the H-- and I didn't realize this, Larry--. stands for Harvard. I didn't know that your middle name--. LAURENCE TRIBE: My parents were very farsighted. JON STEWART: It's unbelievable, the premonition. they must have had. I want to thank you both for being here. The question that I want to talk about. is there's something that has somewhat baffled me about--.

well, a few things that have baffled me about--. this MAGA movement. But the main thing is it is steeped. in the iconography of patriotism of the Revolution. It's "We, the people.". It's on the buses. It's all about fealty to the Constitution and reverence. for the founding fathers. And yet, they are supporting an individual who. seems to, if this were the Revolution, I mean, they'd be Tories.

He wants absolute immunity for the president. It seems to fly in the face of everything. that they feel is the foundation of their movement. And I'm not saying, oh, don't support Donald Trump. or don't support MAGA. Do whatever you want. That's America. You vote for who you're going to vote for, but don't couch it in constitutional admiration. So I want to get your thoughts on that.

And Larry, I'll start with you, and then we'll go to Mona. Larry, what do you think? LAURENCE TRIBE: Well, it does seem, to me, kind. of obviously hypocritical. The Constitution, to the extent it represented anything, represented the rejection of a petty tyrant, rejection of rule over the people, rather than rule by the people. But that's nothing new. I mean, throughout our history, the iconography. of constitutionalism and the trappings of patriotism.

have always provided a kind of patina of legitimacy. We share a language in which we claim to have certain ideals. Each side, I think, believes the other side. is abusing that language. I don't, myself, have any doubt, which side. is really guilty of the abuse, But I. don't expect people to believe me just because I say so.

JON STEWART: You're a professor emeritus. I think we have to. I think the law is we have to believe you, because you say so. I think that's the rules-based order. that we've been talking about. Mona, you, famously, on the conservative side, is this something that, as Larry said, you've seen before, is this a new development on that side? What do you think is going on? MONA CHAREN: So first of all, I want to thank. you for inviting me on. There are only a few days until the election.

My anxiety level is so high, and it. is so good to be with someone who. can make me laugh at this moment. thank you for the initiation. JON STEWART: You mean me? I thought you were talking about Larry. OK, yeah, no, I'm delighted to be able to do that. Mona, first of all, let me say, I so appreciate the anxiety. that everybody is feeling. It's a constant, what's going to happen? We don't know. The thing that I always keep saying is we. are almost in a Pavlovian response. to this one day as "the day.".

And the thing I always say to people. is it could be a day that goes your way, a day that doesn't go your way, but it is not one day. The work that you do, the work that Larry does, the work that everybody tries to do it's day-to-day. I try to tell people, like, don't. get so wrapped up in that day. Just remember, you got to keep fighting, no matter what. MONA CHAREN: That is absolutely true. JON STEWART: Yeah. MONA CHAREN: It's also good life advice, never to get too high or too low, no matter what fate sends. JON STEWART: The roller coaster. Exactly. MONA CHAREN: Yes, exactly. All right.

So let's talk-- to answer your first question, I want to talk a little bit about the right, and then I want to talk about the left. JON STEWART: Please, MONA CHAREN: Regarding the right, we just saw this vulgar festival. at the Madison Square Garden--. JON STEWART: Right. MONA CHAREN: --which put some of us. in mind of another rally at Madison. Square Garden that happened--. JON STEWART: 1939. MONA CHAREN: --in 1939, that was sponsored. by the German American Bund, which was. an American Nazi organization.

And it had a lot of Nazi iconography, there were swastikas, but the big portrait. at the front of the hall was a two-story high image. of George Washington. JON STEWART: Right. MONA CHAREN: Because if you're going. to have an American fascism, you're. going to have to draw upon American iconography, American. history, American symbols. and so--. JON STEWART: That's interesting. MONA CHAREN: --that was the most glaring example of how you. can distort American history for, obviously,

anti-patriotic ends, but claiming. patriotism all the while. And that is, I think, what we're seeing, also. These are not American Nazis, but they are certainly fascist. adjacent, the MAGA movement. JON STEWART: Right. MONA CHAREN: And they, too, invoke patriotism for something. that is anti-patriotic because as you say, and as Professor Tribe said, they don't. respect the Constitution. They want to bury it. Trump himself has said that the Constitution should be.

shredded in order to put him back in office--. this was in 2022--. et cetera. So we know--. JON STEWART: I just want to ask real. quick, do you think is that then a cynical manipulation? Because I would say that there is a sincere belief. amongst many of the people that follow it, that they are following in the footsteps of George Washington. They don't see either the hypocrisy. They see it as foundational. I wonder, is it a cynical manipulation.

from those at the top designing this stuff? Do they say for this movement to take place, we have to have it steeped in some kind. of patriotic or constitutional hierarchy, even as we're saying, we're going to, as you said at the rally, 1798 Alien Enemies Act, we're just going to intern people. MONA CHAREN: Yeah. So whether they're cynical or not, with all due respect, I'd rather not get into that. I mean, then you have to go down. the road of how much history does Trump really know?

It doesn't matter. JON STEWART: I don't think it's a lot. MONA CHAREN: Yeah, it doesn't matter. The fact is it is out there to be exploited. And now, I want to turn to the left. JON STEWART: Yes. MONA CHAREN: Because I think the left has made a mistake. in this country, which they are now. in the business of correcting, in my judgment, of being. suspicious of patriotism, of finding. patriotic talk cringe-inducing, more comfortable as critics. I'm a big consumer of NPR, and every single day, it.

is this marginalized group or that marginalized group, and this sin that was committed by the United States 50, 10 hundreds years ago, and that crime. against this or that group. Almost never-- in fact, one morning I was listening, and it was they were talking about a program. to help the Inuit people in Canada. that was run by the federal government, and how successful it was. And I thought, is this NPR?

I mean, this is a positive story about something that. was done by the United States. I don't know what I'm listening to. So I think, the left is figuring out, or at least the Kamala Harris campaign has very smartly. recognized that it's a better bet to be patriotic, to say you are in favor of the American flag, not to let the right steal that from you, and to celebrate American exceptionalism,

American virtues, as well as, obviously, recognizing our flaws. I'm not saying we should all be chauvinists or jingoistic, but I do think the left needs to recognize. the importance and the power of patriotism. in American politics. JON STEWART: That's such an interesting point, because I think--. and Larry, I'll ask you about it--. LAURENCE TRIBE: Sure. JON STEWART: --my sense of patriotism, I guess, is so different from that. I actually view the criticism of the United States.

and its actions as the highest order of patriotism, so it's interesting to hear you say I don't view it. as a repudiation, I guess, of the Constitution. or of the founding. I view it as the struggle to live up. to what is clearly something that we. weren't able to live up to. And that, that criticism for those groups. is crucial to the journey of being able to separate.

nationalism from patriotism or love of country. from clear-eyed vision of its flaws and its benefits. But Larry, what's your thought on that, the criticism. of the left for that? LAURENCE TRIBE: Well, first of all, I agree, very much, with your way of describing patriotism, at least the way I have felt it. I feel that I love my country most when I am taking advantage. of the freedom it provides to join in the enterprise.

of ever-improving it. I came to this country when I was not quite six years old. My parents were--. MONA CHAREN: Oh, so you can't be president. LAURENCE TRIBE: No. JON STEWART: Wait, we just broke some news. I didn't even know he was running. LAURENCE TRIBE: I'm not old enough. No, I came to the country as a Russian-Jewish immigrant. I have loved the country ever since I got here. One of my favorite possessions is an American flag.

that my father--. because he had become an American citizen. before being interned by the Japanese, in Shanghai, where I was born--. my father hid it in the bottom--. the false bottom of a truck, knowing. that if it were discovered, he would be tortured, perhaps killed. When he died, my mom gave me that flag. It means a lot to me, personally.

It's a symbol of what I love. But when people started burning the flag and others--. and I was as offended as anyone--. when others said they should be punished for burning the flag, you guys have it backwards. What they are doing is expressing the strongest. way they can their opposition at the time to the Vietnam War. Let me say also that, although I agree with Mona when she says. it is a strategic mistake, as well as a conceptual error,

to equate genuine Americanism with some kind of chauvinism, that's a mistake. But it's also a mistake to talk about the left or the right. JON STEWART: As a monolith. LAURENCE TRIBE: As a monolith. I mean, there are undoubtedly some people in the MAGA. movement who are scheming, and know perfectly well how. they're manipulating symbols in order to play.

to people's grievances. There are others who are taken in. There are people on the left. Across the spectrum, the less we lump people together, either by race, by ethnicity, by religion, by political party, by a particular point. on the ideological spectrum, the more open we are. to an ever-improving union--. and that's what I so love.

I mean, I'm so grateful to the country for--. JON STEWART: It's not static. LAURENCE TRIBE: --for-- it's not static. The whole thing. When Barack Obama was a student of mine, and I was so lucky to have--. JON STEWART: You taught him? LAURENCE TRIBE: Oh, yeah He was in--. JON STEWART: That's where he learned. all those Communist values. Tribe. LAURENCE TRIBE: But when he was in my class, he kept emphasizing a more perfect union. JON STEWART: Right. LAURENCE TRIBE: He loved that. JON STEWART: He was talking about that even back then? LAURENCE TRIBE: Even back then. He was really the only first-year law student.

that I can remember who was so impressive, to me, at the time before he learned anything from me. My research assistant, we wrote some articles together, and it was because of his belief. that it was a project that was never finished. It was very much like Lincoln, a more perfect union, the better angels of our nature. That's what I value. JON STEWART: Mona, I want to ask you,

because this actually really is, it's a fascinating discussion, because it gets. to a visceral and emotional truth, as opposed. to a constitutional truth, which. is the thing that everybody tries to define. So the emotional truth is it really. depends on who is doing the criticizing, how that criticism. is viewed within the public. I could make the case that nobody. has criticized America or been more. angry at it than Donald Trump. MONA CHAREN: Right.

JON STEWART: He is calling it a garbage can, and he is saying we are the worst country in the world. And then his solution is, which, by the way, again, seemingly against the constitutional principles is, the only solution is he as the Lord and Savior. But I want to ask you, when you hear the criticism on NPR. from a group that might be described as marginalized, does that hit your ear differently than hearing.

a criticism from a group in a Rust. Belt, a white-blue collar town, and they're criticizing. America for its policies? What would be the difference of that, and how does that hit differently? MONA CHAREN: Yeah. so it doesn't hit me differently. And I do agree that one of the almost unique strengths. of this country is our capacity for self-criticism, our willingness to look honestly. at our own history and our flaws.

and move toward a better future. Constantly having the idea that we're improving things. and more perfect union, right? And so, I get what you're asking, which. is that people are much more tolerant of criticism. from their own side. They don't see that as unpatriotic. Whereas when it comes from the other side, they tend to. JON STEWART: What's interesting is criticism from the right is. actually not-- like, the left, I. don't think views the right's criticism as unpatriotic.

I think it only--. I think they only only view--. MONA CHAREN: Not so sure. I mean, I loved it, frankly, when Governor Josh Shapiro, of Pennsylvania, said about Trump, he said, stop shit talking America. JON STEWART: Right. MONA CHAREN: And that's--. so I do think there's been pushback to that. They've noticed that this is the kind of rhetoric. that the MAGA people are using. and they have they've responded very well. But look, it is a strength of ours to be. able to be self-critical.

I just think there does come a point where it goes too far. Now, of course, the MAGA people, I reject their entire criticism of the United States. because I think it's completely unfounded. Their view is that the United States is terrible. because we are importing criminal immigrants, and because we are cities are hellholes, and because our crime is through the roof. None of that is true, so I don't accept their criticisms.

I do accept some criticisms from the left. Absolutely, we have a history of slavery and discrimination. We haven't gotten over all of that. But I do think--. to return to the earlier point-. JON STEWART: Sure. MONA CHAREN: --that the left can take it too far, also. And so when you were saying you think it's the highest. form of patriotism, to criticize your country, I would just ask--. I don't know if you're married, but if your--. JON STEWART: Wait, what? MONA CHAREN: --if your spouse--. if your spouse was constantly pointing out everything.

you do wrong, all your flaws every day, just a constant litany of the things you've done wrong today, the things you did wrong years ago, et cetera, and then you say, "Why are you always criticizing me? You must not love me.". And the response is, this is the highest form of love. OK? JON STEWART: Can I tell you something? That is-- what a great analogy, because it's. about a relationship, right? It's about building a relationship. And Mona, we're going to get into whatever.

relationship issues you're having because that--. that analogy, I don't know where that came from. But all right, I'll accept it. LAURENCE TRIBE: Apart from the very good substantive points. that Mona makes, there is an asymmetry of sorts. And that is, I think, it's fundamentally different. when you are trying to erase the past. JON STEWART: Well, that's--. that's--. LAURENCE TRIBE: When you were trying to say. something meaningful about it. Erasing history, erasing fact, and moving into an unreal world.

of alternative fact, that feels, to me, to be fundamentally wrong, regardless. of the purpose or orientation that it reflects. I mean, we're not ever going to make any kind of progress. as a society if we don't have some shared. reality, some shared conviction, that some things are true and others are not right. Not limited to the truths of mathematics or something.

We may not know how to prove that napalming babies is wrong, or that splitting families apart cruelly is wrong, but we know it. We know it as deeply as we know that the road to hell. is paved with good intentions. JON STEWART: "but then, to Mona's point, criticism has to be leveled kind. of fairly across the board. But I want to get back to, quickly, the relationship. analogy, and then move into what that idea. is about our shared reality. In the relationship analogy, I think on the right,

the difficulty that I have with the way you describe it, and I think you're right, it's exhausting at times, but one of the differences is in a relationship, if I were to get a criticism and immediately say, "I've never done that," and I'm going to make it so that you. don't love me unless you tell me I'm great, and I'm going to deny that it ever happened, and I'm going to tell you that you're playing the victim,

and you're guessing-- and I would. suggest that on the right, that is kind of what has happened. I mean, you look at Florida, and they. say you can't teach the 1619 curriculum, which hates America. It doesn't hate America. It's explaining how we got here with our relationship. to the African-American community. So while the point is correct about, like, yeah, a relationship would get tiresome. I'm just saying, what plays into that is. not just the left's criticism. It's the right's ability to gaslight, to say, to deflect,

and to never admit that there are communities who have. suffered disproportionately. MONA CHAREN: Yeah. So can I just respond to something Larry said--. JON STEWART: Please. MONA CHAREN: --because I think it's important? So he made the point that we have. to be able to have a shared reality, which I 100%. agree with. But then the examples that he gave-- that you gave, Larry--. those were moral arguments about whether something. is immoral or not immoral. And I think before we even get to that point,

we have to deal with the problem. of just complete gaslighting and disinformation. The fact is that the message of MAGA. is things like immigrants are committing. disproportionate amounts of crime in this country, and you're not safe because of all these criminal immigrants. And it's just false. There are immigrants who commit crimes, but all the data show that immigrants. are less likely to commit crimes.

than native-born Americans. And you can see why that would be. People who come here, especially if they're here. illegally, for the most part, want to keep their noses clean, stay out of trouble, and that is borne out by the data. But we, in our current polarized moment, one of the biggest problems we face. as a society is trying to break through these silos. of misinformation and deal with reality, so that then we can have a debate. After we've established what the facts are,

then we can debate what the right thing to do is. LAURENCE TRIBE: How do we go about establishing. what the facts are? The trouble is, when I talk to people and I try to find them, who say, no, you're wrong, crime is at an all-time high. In fact, more crimes are committed, serious crimes, by immigrants, and I say, where do you get that idea? And they say, well, and then they point to some silo, and I point to my silo. And I say, mine has empirical evidence behind it,

and they say, no. In the end, we are debating the sources of authority. We don't have direct firsthand knowledge ourselves, what's done on the streets. And so each of us starts with some assumptions. about who is-- what is a trustworthy source. of information. And it's very hard to crack beneath that surface. when authority is questioned, when elites, for good reason, are regarded as, sometimes, suspect.

JON STEWART: Right. With skepticism, certainly. LAURENCE TRIBE: Yeah. MONA CHAREN: Yeah. JON STEWART: All right. I'm going to broach both of your areas of expertise. then, because I think together, we have the solution. So, Larry, obviously, constitutional law, the profession of law. Mona, you've done fabulous journalism. in these various areas. So here's, maybe, the answer. Who litigates the parameters of our shared reality? And I use the word litigate purposefully.

because to a large extent, our court system is the one place. where reality has standards of evidence, has things that hold true. Now, you can be cynical about the court system, and the way. that it functions, and all that, but at its core. is a series of principles that helps you litigate, not. speculate, which is what our media tends to do, speculate into the future--. what will this mean for 2028?

Blah, blah, blah. What if our media relentlessly litigated those parameters. of our reality? And isn't that something that could. earn the kind of authority and trust. that you're talking about? Mona, what do you think of something like that? MONA CHAREN: Well, this is the great challenge. of the next several years, I think, because we are floundering at the moment in this new media. environment, where there are so many sources of information,

and there are so few gatekeepers now. that are trusted. And so people choose their own adventure, and choose what to believe, and getting. people to agree on certain--. to trust certain authorities. One of the things that I think has. been the most damaging thing about Trump, which is why--. one of the reasons that I opposed him right from the. get go is, that one of his missions. is to undermine faith in all institutions that.

could possibly damage him. So whether it's the intelligence agencies, the press, the military, the courts, and the election system, everything that could possibly. And so when people lose faith in those-- look, those institutions are not perfect, obviously, and they make mistakes. But what we have to manage to have a conversation. about in this country is, people say, I don't trust institutions, but they do. And they have to.

They would not get up out of bed. in the morning if they didn't. JON STEWART: You look at the letter grade on a restaurant. You walk in there, you say, if that thing's got a C, I'm not sitting and eating there. But if it's got an A, I believe that I won't get sick. MONA CHAREN: They open the tap to drink their water. first thing in the morning. They trust the institutions that the water. is safe to drink. They get on an airplane. I mean, all of these things require trust. And--. JON STEWART: But trust is built up for over experience. Larry, I'll ask you.

So let's talk about election denial, OK? 2020 was rigged. Anybody who represents Donald Trump can go on any cable news. network or on Twitter or on Facebook or whatever. and make the case it was rigged, it was this, the cyber ninjas say this, all the votes were taken. Where does it fall apart? Where does that reality fall apart? In court. When they tried to litigate it, it fell apart. Don't we have to set upon a project.

of litigating these realities? Mona made a great point. Like, those institutions aren't perfect, but there are some institutions that earn your trust over time, through your experience. Don't we have to undertake that project? LAURENCE TRIBE: I think we very much do. And because the courts have become so radically. and conspicuously politicized in many instances,

we're having a much harder time doing that. I mean, there have been times throughout American history. when the Supreme Court has veered. very far to one direction or another, usually to the right. The decision in Dred Scott and Plessy, Korematsu, Shelby County. JON STEWART: All right. Now-- Plessy and Ferguson, I was with you. Once you went into Korematsu and Shelby County, I was lost. LAURENCE TRIBE: Well, the main point. is voting rights have often fared. badly in the Supreme Court. Equality has fared badly.

But the idea that the court at least followed a method of it, looking at precedent, paying attention to facts, rules of evidence, that tended to hold. Even though people would often disagree. with where the court came out. I think it came out much too often, much too. repressively and regressively, but. that's a matter of judgment. Now, we have judges who basically say, yes, for 50 years, we've agreed that a woman.

should have control over her own body, but now, we say no. Why? What's changed? We have the votes. The idea and the dissenting justices in Dobbs. made it clear. The idea that it's just a matter. of counting up the votes, and that there. is no method to the madness. That undermines an important function of the judiciary, and it's a function that we have to rebuild.

It can't be rebuilt overnight. JON STEWART: Right. LAURENCE TRIBE: Court has lost its credibility, for good reason. JON STEWART: Mona, in your mind, what are. the guardrails anymore then? What are the things that tethers? Yeah, please, go back. MONA CHAREN: Before guardrails, can I respond to that? JON STEWART: Please, please. MONA CHAREN: I think people can differ. as to whether Dobbs was rightly decided. or Roe v. Wade was good law. But I think it's important to keep in mind, leaving. that aside for a second, it's important to keep.

in mind that of all the institutions in our society, all of whom were stressed during the Trump presidency, the one institution that I think held up best. was the courts. JON STEWART: I agree. MONA CHAREN: You had every single one of those cases, with the exception of half of one, that went against Trump. Judges that Trump had appointed wrote searing opinions saying, you can't just come into this courtroom with nothing.

Facts matter here, and the law matters, and arguments matter. And that was a reassuring moment for the strength. of institutions, and frankly, when so many others. had failed the test. Certainly, the entire Republican Party. with a few notable exceptions. And so, I think that we need to build on that. We need to remind people that the courts actually.

performed very well when put to the test. I'm not sure how it would be if Trump is reelect--. God forbid-- Trump is reelected. I think we may find ourselves with a lot of Eileen Cannons. JON STEWART: Right. MONA CHAREN: And judges will no longer feel emboldened. to do the right thing. They will think, well, the voters chose this. LAURENCE TRIBE: I think Mona is exactly right. I think the judiciary, for all its flaws, held up better than other institutions in 2020. JON STEWART: Right.

LAURENCE TRIBE: I'm hopeful, cautiously hopeful, cautiously. optimistic that, that will still be true, but it's not a given. Just this morning, the US Supreme Court, in a crazy case from Virginia, where Governor Youngkin asked. the Court to cooperate with the suppression of certain votes. because of the so-called danger that non-citizens were voting--.

JON STEWART: Wasn't that on-- on a suspicion of a person. not being documented. Isn't that-- isn't that what the--. if you have a suspicion of it, you can remove that person. from the voter rolls. LAURENCE TRIBE: What I think the Court did today. indicates, not that it's going to go badly this time. necessarily, but if it won't, it will. not be for want of trying. There are six justices on the US Supreme Court. that, given the flimsiest excuse, might look to find another Bush v. Gore opportunity, and I worry about that.

I think the trajectory is not all encouraging. Things looked better in 2020--. JON STEWART: Right. LAURENCE TRIBE: --than they look to me now, with the Eileen. Cannon's populating the country and feeling. their oats more fully. JON STEWART: Right. Well, I think, Mona's point of if they got that victory, they might think, oh, this is the direction. that we want to go in. I think my point was we take that positive part of how. the courts had earned that authority, and we try to apply that methodology.

into these other systems that we have to help. rebuild that kind of trust. And then getting back to our original premise, if the guy at the top can pick and choose. his constitutional pleasures-- he loves the Fifth Amendment. We've seen that being used quite frequently--. I've seen the right fetishizing free speech. Free speech is under attack in this country. Trump is the only one who's out there saying. I'm going to remove licenses from news organizations.

that I don't like. DeSantis is the only one out there saying. I'm going to make sure that teachers don't get a chance. to teach the way they like. A guy in Oklahoma on the right is saying. you got to have Bibles in the school, and you've got to do it. It seems, to me that--. MONA CHAREN: Trump bibles. JON STEWART: Trump-- by the way, the $150 Trump Bible that somehow, like, also a 3D hologram, I don't even. understand what any of it is. But the point being, it does seem to be. a choose your own adventure. And the only underlying principle.

is, does this help Trump? But I still believe Trump is merely. a symptom of a government that's having trouble being. responsive to people's needs. LAURENCE TRIBE: Right. And a symptom of an undercurrent of hatred. and mistrust and misogyny and racism that. has run throughout our history, which is not to say that we're. not a great country. We are, because we can face those truths. and help to overcome them. But it is to say that Trump is not a new phenomenon.

He is simply a symptom. MONA CHAREN: I think he's more than a symptom. I think he's more. I think he's both cause and symptom, because he's. had a capacity to expand--. it's an overused phrase--. to widen the Overton window of what is acceptable. And he's given a permission structure for people's worst. instincts to come out, and it's hard to picture somebody. like Ron DeSantis, who has lots of terrible instincts,

including shutting down free speech or punishing us--. a huge corporation that gets on the wrong side of him. JON STEWART: Disney, right. MONA CHAREN: --that's, by the way, the antithetical to the conservative values. that I used to talk about for years. as a conservative columnist. The whole point was don't want an overweening state using. state power against private parties, even a big private party like Disney, but anyway.

But it is hard to imagine somebody. like DeSantis creating a mob that would storm. the Capitol on his behalf. JON STEWART: But a lack of charisma. I would make the point that--. you said something earlier that I thought. was really interesting, which is Trump has gone after. and delegitimized any institution or organization. that could hurt him. That strikes me as the genesis of Roger Ailes project,

when he was in the Nixon White House and he said, I'm going to create a news network so. that they can't ever do that to Nixon or any of us ever again. And it's been a 50-year project of delegitimizing any think. tank, any university, any news organization that may. ultimately-- and the irony of Roger Ailes was, his ethos was, you cannot trust editorial authority anywhere, while exercising almost iron-fisted. editorial authority. So is this really, though, just a talented demagogue.

who came along when the field was seeded, I guess is my point. MONA CHAREN: Yeah, I don't think it's--. I don't think it's either/or. I think it is both. It's both. You're right. The ground was prepared. You had the Rush Limbaugh phenomenon. I mean, there were many things that were going on that. prepared the ground for Trump. But he is, I think, uniquely poisonous. JON STEWART: The courts are the slowest moving ships probably. in the constitutional, you know, executive,

legislative, and judicial. Because those appointments are life-long, it's the slowest moving one to shift around. Are we in a 50 to 60-year cycle now that. is moving it in the deregulatory. and delegitimizing direction? LAURENCE TRIBE: Well, I think it's too early to. say, obviously. The court has done things very recently that undermine. the possibility of meaningful regulation by basically saying, unless Congress specifies in advance, prophetically, exactly.

what an agency can do, it's going. to be up to us, the courts, to decide. how to interpret the powers of the regulatory state. Whether that, in the end, makes the regulatory state. more powerful, ironically, is impossible to say. But it does seem to me pretty clear. that the courts, despite the slowness with which the wheels. of justice supposedly move, are capable of moving at lightning.

speed when they want to. The Nixon tapes case was decided almost overnight. The Pentagon Papers case was decided very quickly. JON STEWART: By the way, those cases. would be decided very differently today, I'm convinced. LAURENCE TRIBE: No doubt they would. Whereas the current court deliberately slow. walked the issues about whether Trump was guilty of violating. all kinds of important criminal statutes. and trying to overturn the election.

They slow walked that to the point. where he'll never be held accountable. unless he loses this election. So they can move at lightning speed if they want, and not otherwise. That's the greatest and least visible power of the courts. is the procedural power beneath the surface of the iceberg. JON STEWART: And this gets us back to our original point, which is, when the courts have a fealty to the Constitution, when the Congress has a fealty to the Constitution as opposed.

to one man or one party, we see a much healthier system. The system is checks and balances. The Founders, they thought it's going. to be a fight between the legislative, judicial, and executive, not between political parties. But as political parties control. those areas, what are the checks and balances. that we have left? LAURENCE TRIBE: Jon, they realized. that, for all the checks and balances, character was going to be determinative. They said that a demagogue might arise,

charismatic demagogue with no fealty. to the Constitution, no fealty to principle, but a clear willingness to bend power to his own ends. And it's almost as though they were describing. Donald Trump in advance. JON STEWART: Mona, what do you think in terms. of a more conservative viewpoint, where you might look. at it and have some sympathy towards lessening. government regulation or moving some things.

Where do you see the checks and balances? I mean, the court has basically said now, corruption kind of doesn't exist unless it's. a explicit quid pro quo. Money is free speech. Corporations are people. What are the checks and balances. now in this weather system? MONA CHAREN: So I do agree with Larry. that our system, to some degree, depends upon character. And that is something that has to be instilled from childhood.

And it has been slipping in our culture. JON STEWART: Are we nostalgic, though? Were the presidents that came before us, were they. really men of great character? It strikes me that-- MONA CHAREN: Not all of them. JON STEWART: That's what I was going to say. It strikes me that many of them were not, even the ones. we revere. MONA CHAREN: We had Andrew Johnson, who was a--. I'm not going to use an epithet, but he was a horrible human being. But no, we've had our share of bad men. But I think you were referring to this, Jon,

when you mentioned that the way the Founders thought. the branches were going to check one another. didn't turn out to be right. They thought that, like, the Congress's institutional. concerns would trump party, and they didn't. So Madison got that wrong. Oh, well. JON STEWART: [CHUCKLING] Madison! MONA CHAREN: But they also built-in others. The federal system, the fact that we have distributed power.

to the states, and the states and the federal government. share power has sometimes been out of fashion. But when you look at how different states are protecting. rights that other states refuse to protect, you have to say, it's not ideal. So, for example, I mean, it's not ideal. that a woman who lives in Alabama. has to travel to get an abortion because her state--.

JON STEWART: And in many cases, it's. not possible for that woman to travel. MONA CHAREN: That is certainly true. But it would be worse if there were. one law for the whole country, and. there were no states to go to. So the federal system does provide another set. of checks and balances. But in the end, and what we've been discussing. is, I think, that none of this architecture can work. Institutions are just people, and none of this. can work without an agreed set of facts.

And that's our biggest challenge going forward, is getting over this siloing, this poisonous partisanship, where people just choose not to believe things. that they find uncongenial. And the more that we-- and I have this with members. of my own family, where I have arguments with them, and I say, where are you getting your information? And unfortunately, it's Fox, and it's. The Wall Street Journal editorial.

page, which I used to love. JON STEWART: And those are the mainstream. areas of misinformation. Underneath that is a Wild West of misinformation. MONA CHAREN: Exactly. Exactly. And look, there were other periods in American history. where we had really irresponsible journalism. We had yellow journalism at the turn between the 19th. and the 20th century, responsible, arguably, for one of our wars. And yet, we did find a way to rise above that. I mean, there came a point where newspapers felt like they.

needed more prestige, and so they established prizes, the Pulitzer Prize. They established editorial boards that were. going to be more responsible. They created the American Society. of Newspaper Editors that was going. to impose certain standards. There are precedents. JON STEWART: Maybe we'll get meaningful algorithmic reform, and maybe that will change the way that things go. But Larry, you were going to jump in. And I'll let you take us out on a hopeful note,

a positive note, Larry Tribe. You can do this. LAURENCE TRIBE: I think what's hopeful is that Mona and I, despite our very broad policy disagreements over the years, can agree that the country needs seriously to focus. on finding a shared set of factual premises. that we can agree on. I'm hopeful that, even though there is no algorithm. for getting there, ChatGPT or anything else,

I'm hopeful that, throughout our history, we have overcome remarkable challenges. I mean, we did defeat Hitler and Mussolini. We did eliminate slavery, though not completely. We've made enormous progress. And when I look at the hopeful sounds that were struck. in the ellipse by what I think is the next president. of the United States the other night,

I'm nothing other than hopeful. I think we're going to have some bumpy times ahead. But I look forward to being right there at the ramparts. And I agree with what Mona said at the very beginning. Whatever happens, we can't give up, even in the horrific possibility that Trump. comes back to power. And I just don't believe it'll happen, even. then, for us to throw in the towel. and say, well, it's all over.

We'll never have another election. That would be a terrible mistake. JON STEWART: Absolutely. LAURENCE TRIBE: Tim Snyder has made the powerful point, you don't obey the dictator in advance. MONA CHAREN: Exactly. LAURENCE TRIBE: It's the first of his 20 lessons from. Tyranny In the 20th Century. You don't give up in advance. You fight as hard as you can--. MONA CHAREN: On the beaches, on the ramparts, on the landing grounds. JON STEWART: I so appreciate you guys being here. It's a reminder that, as they say, the arc of the moral universe is long,

but it bends towards justice. But it doesn't bend that way by itself. There are individuals out there who. must, on a day-to-day basis, through great labor. and great insight, bend it towards justice. And I thank you both for being a part of that. Mona Charen, Larry Tribe, thank you guys so much for joining. What a fantastic conversation. Thank you. LAURENCE TRIBE: Great pleasure. Thank you. MONA CHAREN: Thank you. JON STEWART: Look at that. Look at that. The elder statesmen of liberalism and conservatism.

standing together in wretched disgust. of the Republican candidate for president in the hopes that we, as a nation--. did you guys think it was-- like, I felt like what I was. doing is, like, we still have institutions. that can stop this, right? There are still guardrails, even if this happens. I think I was almost begging them. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah, you were begging. to feel a little bit better. And they're like, fewer and fewer. JON STEWART: What am I not seeing in the system?

Because I really did feel like--. I thought they'd be more bullish on the courts, to be honest with you. I thought Larry was like, yeah, that's over. I think Mona was still a little with it. GILLIAN SPEAR: Well, there's been such a partisan project. to instill these partisan judges at every step. of the legal institution. So I don't know how much confidence we. can have in anything anymore. JON STEWART: How are you guys handling--. are you going through your towns, counting signs? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Long Islander, so. JON STEWART: Right. So you're not.

There's nothing to count other than Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump. Yeah, my town is--. I've got a surprising amount of Harris-Walz out. here, which I am surprised about, because I am in Trump country. And Tracey and I are still playing. the Trump or insurrectionist game, where we see--. - How's that going? JON STEWART: Oh it's--. you don't play that game? LAUREN WALKER: What is this game? Is it a gradient? JON STEWART: Oh, Trump or insurrectionist? No, so we'll go by, and outside their house. will be, like, Trump-Vance, and like a little thing.

And you'll be like, Trumper. And then it'll be a F-150 with like giant Trump flags flying. out the side of it, and a Don't Tread On Me Gadsden flag, and like, I have a gun and I vote. And we're like, insurrectionist. So you have to judge the level of commitment to the movement. LAUREN WALKER: Sounds fun. GILLIAN SPEAR: That's a fun game. JON STEWART: As you lead up to the election, there's not a whole lot else. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: You have to find joy somewhere. JON STEWART: You have to find joy somewhere. So this will be it.

We'll have a show after the election, obviously, still. See, you know what this feels like to me? Y2K. Now, I'm old, so you guys were like 3 and 5. At midnight at Y2K, even though it did seem--. there was that feeling of, like, are we still here? I do wonder if we're going to have that feeling of, like, are we still here? GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. I have been bifurcating all of the plans.

that I've been making for the last month as pre and post. I'm like, I might see you that week. I don't know. JON STEWART: Do some of them include, like, it's either. going to be, like, we're all going. to go to Lucali for pizza, or I will see you in Sullivan. County in my cabin. Brittany, do the listeners have any thoughts on--. or are they--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. We have some good ones this week. JON STEWART: What do we got? What do we got? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We have a theme, if you can tell. This listener said, this will be both the second time I'll. be voting and the second time I've.

been told this will be the most important. election of your life. How many of your voting experiences. have felt this important, if at all? JON STEWART: Boy, that's such a great question. I actually think now that the more we are inundated. in a media environment like Twitter, thing, that it heightens it in the way that, look, they have a stake in the urgency of this. And that is not to suggest that it's not important. But they're all pretty fucking important, in truth. Think about Bush-Gore and what a different world.

we might live in if that thing had gone a different way. I mean, you can Monday morning quarterback. the entire universe. And, you know, we can always, oh, if it had only gone this way, we'd. all have flying cars by now. But you really don't have it. The only people that really see the future. are the writers of The Simpsons. [LAUGHTER]. But I have great sympathy for someone. who is just starting on their voting journey,

and is already being told that the future of the world. is in their hands in that booth. But, yeah, hang in there. Keep voting. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Well, actually, this. is kind of a follow-up, this question, because 20 years ago, we were in the thick of George. W's re-election campaign. And this person wants to know, how would. you compare that to the potential re-election of Trump. in 2024? JON STEWART: Well, I think, at that time--. so at that time, we did think, this is crazy.

We were coming off of, I think, eight years of Clinton. And there was a certain--. that's, when Clinton came in, although Reagan. was controversial, too. You know what? It's always been a part of it. There's always been a kind of apocalyptic undercurrent about. everything that has gone on. I think Trump might be one of the first people. to really live up to it. And I would say January 6 is the demarcation.

point for that feeling, where you're just like, oh, that was a line that I didn't think. would ever get fucking crossed. And he just walked across it. So in the moment, I think you're always feeling. the import of it, but you always thought, these are people of a same piece, that policies you don't. agree with, too right wing, maybe more interventionist, less interventionist. He's the first guy I can remember who was, like, oh, I'm going to do a completely different.

system of government. And I'm going to step over certain guardrails. of Constitutional propriety. That means, yeah, we're not in the same ballpark anymore. So this one, yeah. But for me, January 6, other than, you know, like, yeah, he's rough. And I care less about how he acts as a person, like, as an asshole. I think he's just not competent. I don't think he has the attention span to be competent.

But January 6 changed even my calculation. of the damage this cat can do. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: And it keeps changing. It feels like. GILLIAN SPEAR: The goalposts will always be moving. JON STEWART: That's right. I do believe that is correct. But hang in there, viewers, I wonder if, next week, all the listener questions will be like, how do you order. something where you can drink your own urine in the forest. and survive on mushroom soup? LAUREN WALKER: What's your go-to survival pack? JON STEWART: What's your go-to go bag to get out of town?

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: This one is, what are your election. night self-care rituals? JON STEWART: What? I don't-- I don't have self-care rituals, I don't think. A, I'll be working. And I can tell you, I don't know if they're. self-care rituals, but I'm assuming. it's going to be, if I'm being indulgent, pizza and iced mocha lattes.

It's not so much self-care as, I. need caffeine, sugar, and then something to absorb it. GILLIAN SPEAR: Comfort food is self-care. JON STEWART: Boom! It's actually not even comfort food. It makes me feel like shit. Well, fabulous. Listen, guys, you've all done such a great job. in putting this show together. I hope the listeners understand that I get to show up at--. Brittany will send me a text at 10:55 and go, we're ready for you.

But what that means is they've ceded. the ground and made everything and made it. foolproof, me being the fool. And I just thank you guys for all the just. ridiculously good work you've done. leading up to the election. And we're keeping it going. We're going to loosen it up, I'm sure, after the election. and get into all those great, juicy topics. that we talked about. But thanks for getting us there with such thorough preparation. Just fantastic. GILLIAN SPEAR: Well, thank you for making.

us laugh along the way. It's been very stressful. JON STEWART: It's very stressful. Brittany, if they want to get a hold of us, how do they do it? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Please. Twitter. We are WeeklyShowPod, Instagram threads and TikTok, we are WeeklyShowPodcast. And please like and subscribe our YouTube. channel, The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: Boom. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mehmedovic, video editor and engineer, Sam Reid. Audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce. I don't want to forget Rob Vitola, who is off. on paternity leave right now. He'll be running back research. And associate producer Jillian Speer,

and the executive producers, Chris McShane, Katie Gray. Once again, thanks so much for your great work, guys. And we will see you, oh God. This sounds so Hamilton. I'll see you on the other side of the war. All right, Bye Bye. [ROCK MUSIC]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions.