The State of Things with Ali Velshi | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

JON STEWART: I wonder if, in media, they've squandered some of that based on those incentives. So, for instance, there's always that rush of, like, now we've got Trump, and the Mueller report, and it's Mueller time, and all these things--. and the hype machine that generates that, whether it was for action in Iraq or accountability. through these special counsels, that it raises an expectation. of its audience. ALI VELSHI: Yes. Yeah. It's a dopamine rush.

JON STEWART: Right. And that there will be consequence. ALI VELSHI: Yes. Yeah. JON STEWART: And the more you run on that hamster. wheel, or gerbil wheel--. I don't know who runs on the wheel. My rodent work is not great. ALI VELSHI: I believe it's a hamster. But I imagine you can get any rodent. JON STEWART: I appreciate that. Most of them, I would think, need. to lose a couple of pounds. ALI VELSHI: Except squirrels. They couldn't pay attention. JON STEWART: Thank you. [MUSIC PLAYING]. Hey, everybody. Welcome to The Weekly Show Podcast with Jon Stewart.

My name is Jon Stewart. We have been away. We are back. We were away for a week because I was obviously, as many of you. know, in the Winter Olympics, skiing, and shooting, and and going down hills. Is it really the Winter Olympics? Or is it just dares you do with your friends while drunk? Because it just seems like an opportunity to do. shit that bodies are not really built to do, but on ice.

The whole thing just strikes me as a dare. Hey, I bet you-- hey, hey, get on that thing. and go down that hill. I'm not doing that. Do it. That should be the motto of the Winter Olympics. Do it. Do it. But we got a fine show, a fine program tonight--. today, tonight? The State of the Union is tonight, so we're probably, if we talk about it, it'll be purely speculative.

So, obviously, whatever happens on that, we will. not have time to comment on. But for this episode, we will be commenting on someone who. will be there, who will be covering. it for his news organization. He is a gentleman whose show I listen to on the weekends. I find it always not just informative, but entertaining and passionate. And I truly enjoy it. So I'm excited to get an opportunity. to talk to Mr. Ali Velshi. [MUSIC PLAYING].

All right, kids. We are going to welcome in right now Mr. Ali Velshi. He's the host of Velshi, airs Saturdays and Sundays, 10:00 AM on MS NOW, and co-host "What's Happening. with Velshi and Ruhle" on MS NOW's YouTube there. Ali Velshi, welcome. ALI VELSHI: It is good to be back with you, my friend. JON STEWART: It is lovely to see you, sir. I want to first offer my condolences. I don't know if you're-- would you consider yourself Canadian? You're not born in Canada. You're born in Canada. ALI VELSHI: With each passing day, more and more so.

I consider myself Canadian. JON STEWART: More and more so Canadian. So I offer-- it's very rare in athletic competitions. that you see sore winners. But it does appear that America, while rightfully. celebrating the incredible feats from the men's. team and the women's team in ice hockey, it does. feel incredibly personal that we're acting as though Canada. is our long term nemesis.

ALI VELSHI: Yeah. Well, our government is. I will say, I don't think Canadians--. I don't think Americans are. And Canadians are really mad at the US government. And they're showing it in terms of their travel. to the United States that they're. withholding, their spending. My parents, who live in Toronto, have a list of things that they buy that they may or may not. have known are American, and the non-American corollary. that they can go to the grocery store and buy. JON STEWART: No. ALI VELSHI: Yeah, yeah. No, they're very-- Canadians are very angry at the Donald. Trump stuff. They're not mad at Americans.

And I think Americans don't have. any animosity with Canadians. But, again, Jon, Americans don't have problems. with immigration either. Like, this is a moment where we distinguish. the American government from the American people. JON STEWART: I would love to be that charitable. I would love to say to you, oh, no, no, no, it's just the government. But this is a government that was installed. by the American people. They handed over the reins, pretty much, to a guy who said,

I'm going to round up everybody. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: And he was, in no small measure, saying he was going to absorb Canada into the United States. Are Canadians making the distinction? ALI VELSHI: Well, look--. JON STEWART: They booed pretty hard on national anthem. ALI VELSHI: Now, if you remember, when. Donald Trump got elected, Justin. Trudeau was wildly unpopular. He was running as prime minister.

The other guy, the conservative, who was a little Trumpy, was leading by, depending on the polls, 20, 25, 30 points. JON STEWART: This is Pierre Poilievre. ALI VELSHI: Pierre Poilievre. Yeah. Then Trump won and started this nonsense, and Mark Carney became the prime minister. Justin Trudeau stepped down, and Mark Carney. became the prime minister. So Canadians reacted very fast to the idea. that you understand that you're the smaller of the neighbors, but you also understand that when that elephant rolls over, you're a mouse. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: Stop it.

ALI VELSHI: You don't want that elephant running--. JON STEWART: That is the Canadian self-deprecation. of the mouse. I liked Carney's framing of it, that idea of the middle powers. ALI VELSHI: The middle powers. Yeah. And he got a standing ovation at Davos for that speech. So here's the thing--. Carney's great, right? He was the head of the Bank of England, the Bank of Canada. Nobody's ever done those two jobs. He is the man for the moment on the world stage. He understands the economy, understands. this tariff nonsense. So Canadians did what Canadians do. They elected the guy who was of the moment,

but a real technocrat. Americans don't do that, right? Americans need the loudest voice in the room. JON STEWART: Generally not. Generally not. ALI VELSHI: But Canadians had this moment where they could. say, I got a guy who's actually not just normal, but will play a role on the world stage. in fixing the damage that America has done. Problem is, Canada still is a mouse. And I don't mean this in any other way than it's a small. economy, which, by the way, of everything it exports, 2/3 to 70% go to the United States. It's built as a country that exports to the United States.

Like, all the lines, the railroads, the highways are all north and south. And now, it's forcing Canada into a relationship where it's. going to be east and west. Things are going to go to the East Coast. to go to Europe and to the West Coast to go to China. JON STEWART: Listen, I think anytime a country. can make itself more resilient and diversify its product. lines or its customer base-- ALI VELSHI: That's good. Yeah. JON STEWART: --that's probably a relatively smart thing. Is the hardest thing, I think, for them to comprehend. this idea, and it's Trumpian in its formulation,

that Canada has been abusing, that Canada has been taking. advantage, that Canada has been exploiting. the poor, sweet United States? We're just a little country just trying to get by. And Canada comes in and foists its lumber on us--. how dare they? ALI VELSHI: Its fertilizer, its potash, its oil, its water, its electricity-- what. a terrible country.

JON STEWART: That's what I'm saying. Is that one of the harder things for them. to wrap their heads around, this idea that--. ALI VELSHI: Yes. JON STEWART: --they've been exploiting the relationship? ALI VELSHI: Yes. It's very weird for Canadians. Canadians totally get that America is the bigger partner. Canadians consume American entertainment, Canadian music. When I was growing up, there were. rules about Canadian content, which meant because America was. so influential, Canadian radio stations and TV stations. had to have a certain amount of content. that was made in Canada-- disproportionate, by the way. JON STEWART: Protectionism.

It's protectionism. ALI VELSHI: I think it was, like, 30%. I'm making the number up, but it was small. It was like, you got to play this much music from Canadians, which is how the Bryan Adams, and the Celine Dions, and people like that got big. Canada's always understood it's the super junior partner. And it's loved it. It loves America. Canadians mostly go to America for vacation. They go across the border when gas is cheaper. They love America. It's so hard for Canadians right now to be as. angry as they are with Trump. But I do think they make the distinction between Donald.

Trump and America. And I will say, to your point, yes, Donald Trump. was elected by Americans. But--. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: Are you about to let us off the hook here? ALI VELSHI: About a third of Americans voted for him. About a third of Americans voted for Kamala Harris--. roughly, within 7 million. And about a third of Americans didn't vote. who are qualified to vote. JON STEWART: That's right. ALI VELSHI: So if there's a crisis right now, and Donald Trump will tell you the crisis. is non-citizens voting, the crisis is citizens not voting. JON STEWART: Oh, I like that formulation. ALI VELSHI: Not non-citizens voting.

Non-citizens voting is a tiny, infinitesimal, vanishing number. of citizens-- the disincentive if you're not. a citizen to vote, which is a felony offense, is massive, right? You're going to go to jail. JON STEWART: Sure. Terrible penalty. Yeah. ALI VELSHI: Terrible. And you'll never become a citizen again. There's no incentive. We need to create more incentives. for that one-third of Americans who don't vote to vote. We should be at 100%. JON STEWART: What is the form--. in terms of caretaking democracy, what is the percentage of participation in Canada?

Is it similar to the United States? Is it greater than the United States? Or are we complacent about all this in both places? ALI VELSHI: Amongst the OECD countries, meaning the developed countries, we're one of the lowest. But it's not that different. So in a good presidential election, a heated. presidential election, about 60% of people. will come out to vote. JON STEWART: Yeah, it's about us. We're the same. ALI VELSHI: And in a off year, something. like a midterm, about 40%. Municipal elections are usually under 20%. Same thing here. Some cities are in the low teens.

Obviously, New York City, in the last election, was massive, right? It has to do with the candidate and the times. So it's the same thing. But the consequences in other developed countries. are not the same. You're not going to lose your health care if you don't vote. You're not going to lose your child care. The world's not going to turn upside down. Pierre Poilievre in Canada sort of threatened. that things would turn upside down, and Canadians didn't like that. JON STEWART: When you watched that election, would Pierre have won if it had not.

been for Trump's really drastic language towards Canada? And, by the way, even if, let's say, Trudeau hadn't stepped down and he would still stand for that, might he have won anyway if Trudeau had still been. the candidate and not Carney? ALI VELSHI: Yeah. I think in both cases, he probably would have won. I mean, it was-- the margins weren't even close. I mean, in a Canadian election, leading by 20, 30 points, that never happens. JON STEWART: Right. ALI VELSHI: They're not as tight as American elections, but that was very unusual. So, yes, he would have won. And I remember, when I would speak to Canadians.

in the last couple of years, they. kind of flirted with this right wing populist stuff, right? You remember the trucker protest and all that stuff. JON STEWART: Well, even now, they. have the separatist movements that the Trump. administration is trying to flame, especially out in the West. ALI VELSHI: And they've always been there. Alberta is always sort of fancied the fact. that they have more to do with the Western US states. than they do with Ontario, and Toronto, and stuff like. So I get that. But I warn my Canadian friends that don't play with this.

Like, in America, we're just about falling off. the cliff where somebody holding. us up by the back of our belt right now to not fall over. Don't go that close. Step back and put up guardrails so you don't get close. It's not fun. I think people think it's fun and it. makes their politics exciting to be an outlier. and to be weird. It's not fun. JON STEWART: Well, it's also, like everything else, there's a certain energy behind the attention economy. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: And in this moment, this is a reflection of Twitter or social media that it's all.

about outrage, and hostility, and tribal politics, and all those other things that coalesce around it. Right now, in Canada-- now, people. might not realize this, your experience in Canada, you're very ensconced in this-- your father. ran for office in Canada. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: And you've told stories about being in the car. with him as you were getting the election results before he. even got to the headquarters.

But talk a little bit about your experience. kind of at the grassroots level of politics in Canada. ALI VELSHI: So my parents originally. came from South Africa, Apartheid South Africa, and they were anti-Apartheid fighters. So they moved to Kenya, where I was born, and they got to Kenya right before Kenya. became independent. So they were literally there when the British flag came down. and the Kenyan flag went up. And they could walk in the streets. with people of different races at all hours. They could go to movies. They didn't have a special day that they could go to the zoo. Like, they just loved that.

And they got involved in civil society. there because they were welcomed. You couldn't do that in South Africa. Then they moved to Canada, and they did the same thing. They got involved in committees, and boards, and city council, and things like that. And my dad ran for office in 1981. I was 11. JON STEWART: And what was he doing for a living at the time? What was his business? ALI VELSHI: They were travel agents. They had the-- because my mother had worked for KLM. as a reservationist in Kenya. So she knew the travel industry. So they built a business. And I was 11 years old.

It was 8 o'clock. The polling had stopped. I was with my dad. We were driving to the campaign office. And they said, the polls are closed. Too early to tell who's won. We can say, in this particular constituency, so and so won. And that so and so was not my dad. It was the other guy. JON STEWART: So he was the--. ALI VELSHI: First guy called. JON STEWART: --first result called, and you guys hadn't even gotten to the headquarters yet. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. I didn't know-- I'm 11. I didn't know there were, like, exit polls and things. like that, which is funny because that's now. what I do for MS NOW, right? I'm looking at the polls and the numbers.

So I looked at him, I said, I can't believe we lost. And he said, of course we lost. He said, we were never going to win. I said, well, why did you run? He said, because we could. He said, because we could stand for what we believed in. And more people chose the other guy. And he got to the office. And he called the other guy. And they had a beautiful conversation. for one minute, in which he conceded, right there and then. JON STEWART: What? ALI VELSHI: I thought that's how it worked, right? JON STEWART: How dare-- he didn't storm the other guy's. election headquarters? ALI VELSHI: No, he didn't file lawsuits. He lost the election. Here's the thing--. JON STEWART: That's how he wants to play it. ALI VELSHI: Years later, he ran again, and he won.

And my mother was a candidate for office. And my sister was a candidate for office. I'm the loser in the family who didn't run for office. [LAUGHTER]. But the country embraced us as immigrants, and we embraced the country in return. And that's how it works. And that's actually how it works. in America for most people. Most people, most immigrants feel this country. has embraced them. And they wish to embrace the country back. [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: Last time that we talked about this next sponsor,

I mentioned an idea that I had. I told you about my invention, the Crumple. The Crumple. It is a topographical blanket for dogs, but not the same topography at each time. Every time you throw it on the ground, it changes its topography. It is an amusement park for your dog. to find a place of comfort and warmth, but also with interest. And have I started this business yet? Am I ready to make these orders?

I have not, and I'm going to tell you why. It's too hard. It's nerve wracking. I don't know how to do this. But you got Shopify here, makes it easy, people. You can get started, they got a design. studio, hundreds of templates, help you build an online store. They can match your style. Maybe nobody knows your brand yet. They can help you find customers. with easy-to-use email or social media campaigns. All important tasks to do this one place-- inventory,

payments, analytics. It's all centralized. I don't want to say it's a force amplifier. for the Crumple, but there is no question. that, with Shopify, I can turn the crumple into a reality. and dominate--. dominate-- the dog comfort industry, if that is an industry. It's time to turn those what ifs into--. [CASH REGISTER DINGS] with Shopify today.

Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com/tws. Go to shopify.com/tws. That's shopify.com/tws. What do you think about-- it's the easiest form of nationalism. to blame immigrants or--. ALI VELSHI: Absolutely. JON STEWART: It's finding a group to do that. Recently, there was a study by the Cato Institute.

that talked about how immigrants. bring in net tax dollars. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: Now, I don't know the methodology of it. I don't know if it's even controversial. But it's certainly interesting. The Cato Institute is no liberal think tank. ALI VELSHI: Correct. JON STEWART: It's libertarian and relatively agnostic. on those kinds of points. But was that a surprising-- it's. the one thing I don't see a lot of, which is an analysis. of the actualities. There's a lot of-- they come in here, and they're handed $50,000 of benefits and these things.

ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: It's the first thing. I saw that really sought to place. it in a mathematical context. ALI VELSHI: And there are similar studies that. demonstrate, for instance, that immigrants start businesses. that employ more than themselves at a greater rate. than those who are born in the United States. Stephen Miller cites this Harvard study. from a million years ago, that's long been debunked, that says that what immigrants do. is they lower wages for everybody. So that's the thing--. you flood the zone with immigrants, and they'll work for less. It's just not true.

JON STEWART: Is that completely untrue? Because I can imagine--. ALI VELSHI: It's largely untrue. JON STEWART: --that, like, things-- like, if you go to a right to work state, for instance, you'll be paid less than if you're in a union. state for the same work. ALI VELSHI: Yes, correct. JON STEWART: I could see how there'd be downward pressure. on jobs that don't pay great--. certain farm jobs and things-- when. you introduce a labor force that's more easily exploited. ALI VELSHI: The example where that demonstrates what you're. talking about is Norway, where everything. is more expensive, right? Like, the equivalent for a Big Mac.

is more expensive in Norway. But everything's paid for, and everybody's wages. are very high. It took about a 10 or 15-year transition into that, but now. everybody's used to it. So they say, hey, life's really good, but everything's paid for. I will never be in debt because of getting sick. So you do adjust for higher wages. So what we should do is we have a negative replacement. rate in America, right, which means. more people die or retire--. JON STEWART: Especially now. ALI VELSHI: Yes. Correct. And every developed country has that. So in 1967, '68, Canada looked at the whole thing and said,

oh, we can't even attract enough immigrants. because they go to the UK and they go to the United States. So Pierre Trudeau, Justin Trudeau's father, came up with this concept of multiculturalism. that said to immigrants, come to our country. If 25 of your people go to a particular school, we will provide language instruction at that school. after school for an hour or half an hour, whatever the case is. So in other words, they said, you can come to this country, keep your culture, keep your language--.

and so it worked. Lots of immigrants went to Canada. Guess what? In the end, they didn't need the after school lessons. JON STEWART: They assimilated. ALI VELSHI: They assimilated. They love hockey more than anyone else. They love the country. Like, it's--. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: Is that what assimilation is in Canada? You have to-- ALI VELSHI: 100%. JON STEWART: -- profess love for hockey. more than anything else? ALI VELSHI: That's what it is. It's not the flag, it's the hockey. JON STEWART: Do you think they could do that now? Do you think the political realities of this moment.

would allow something like what Trudeau proposed? ALI VELSHI: Yes. JON STEWART: It feels radioactive. ALI VELSHI: I'll tell you why. I visit my parents all the time. So I went there a few weeks ago. And at the airport, in the arrivals hall, before you were even through customs, there's a massive electronic billboard. And it's got a picture. It's one of the banks in Canada. It's got a picture of a guy who's meant. to look like a new immigrant. And it says-- we have a kiosk in the arrivals hall, please come to us. We'll give you an application for a credit card.

and a loan-- a mortgage, right? Never see a sign like that in America. Then they've got another sign from Rogers, which. is the cell phone company, same thing, saying, welcome to Canada. Make your first call from here. So Canada gets it--. that this is an economic imperative. You need immigration. In fact, my argument in the United States. is immigration should not fall under Homeland Security. It creates this impression that immigrants. are a danger or some kind of a security threat. They are an economic imperative. We don't have enough children, despite JD.

Vance wanting you to have more children to save the culture. JON STEWART: Certain children, heritage children. He wants heritage children. ALI VELSHI: Well, Hungary did this, right? They had a thing that said, if you have five children, you'll never pay income tax. The details are a little sketchy--. but you'll never pay income tax alone. Guess what? Nobody took the offer, because nobody--. JON STEWART: Really? ALI VELSHI: Nobody wants five children. That's not the modern world. Two parents generally work, and you. can't bring up five children. So it's nonsensical. You need immigration to keep an economy like this productive.

JON STEWART: Ali, do you think it's because resource guarding. is the fuel for a lot of demagogues, and populists, and those kinds of things. Why does that resonate so well? There really is an idea-- and, listen, I'm not defending, in any way, the chaos of our immigration. system, because it is chaos. ALI VELSHI: Absolutely. JON STEWART: There was no controls, really, on the border. But more than that, the asylum system is broken. Nobody understands the Byzantine labyrinth.

of rules that decides who's a green card, who doesn't get--. it's an absolute mess. It is a failure of our Congress that nobody has taken that. ALI VELSHI: For decades. JON STEWART: For decades. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: But it has given an opportunity to demagogues. and resource guarders. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: So why is it, do you think-- the idea that there. are these free riders, whether it's the so-called welfare. queen or the Somali immigrants who are massively defrauding.

our government-- why does that resonate so much more. powerfully than the reality of who's. really exploiting the economy for people in working class? Why do you think that is? ALI VELSHI: It's so weird how we don't really. understand the fact that we've geared this system. for the super wealthy. JON STEWART: Right. ALI VELSHI: Like, it is what it is. I've got no beef with the super wealthy.

I love that you can come to America. and get rich because you had some fantastic idea. And we've got free markets. I get all that. But why have we not realized whose boot it is. that's actually on our neck? It's not the boot of the immigrant. JON STEWART: And it's not about getting rich. It's about creating institutional, almost like a wealth incumbency. ALI VELSHI: Correct. JON STEWART: It's about lobbyists. and everything creating--. ALI VELSHI: That's a great way to put it. JON STEWART: -- ways that that system stays in place. ALI VELSHI: That's exactly right. And somehow, it seems like it's a secret even though it's.

out there in public. I don't know. And what confuses me is why this still works. Because it's actually what Hitler did. and what every demagogue has done all through history. I need to capitalize on the fact. that you're feeling a little uneasy. about your economic situation. I've got someone to blame for it. And we did this. We've done it all through history. And I don't understand why this still works. It shouldn't still work. We should understand, we may have inequalities in society, but there's a big inequality-- they talk. about the k-shaped economy, where the rich are getting.

richer and the poor are not. So I saw somebody describe it, it's not a K--. it's the jaws of an alligator. JON STEWART: Ow. ALI VELSHI: I mean, it's going like this. And that's the thing we have to-- that's. where our energy should be. JON STEWART: I was talking to a professor. from out in Texas, Michelle Dickerson, who had written. a book about the new middle class New Deal. and how to do that. And she made this really interesting point. about what politicians do for people. in the middle class and lower middle classes, they get them to look horizontally.

So if they look horizontally and they. blame the people that are slightly below them, they never look up--. ALI VELSHI: Yes. JON STEWART: -- to see where the real barriers. are being built and ensconced. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. Yeah. And my family's history with colonialism. demonstrates that, where you either look horizontally or one. rung lower on the ladder, or maybe even one rung higher. on the ladder to say, hey, that person's got the job I want. They're my target. JON STEWART: Right. ALI VELSHI: You're not looking all the way up. there to say that person's controlling.

the flow of money, and the jobs, and taxes, and how this goes. And it's hard because you want to be. able to make this a very accessible conversation. for people to have. But, because of our politics, it. migrates into hating the millionaires and billionaires. Your point is more valid. It's about the incumbency of wealth. It's the idea that America-- immigrants think that this is. a country you come to and you can make it if you work hard. and you've got the smarts to make it. JON STEWART: That's right. ALI VELSHI: We're building a society.

that's something different. JON STEWART: Right. Because we're building a society. that values capital much more than labor. It seems to be-- ALI VELSHI: Correct. JON STEWART: It's valuing the movement of money. ALI VELSHI: Correct. JON STEWART: A lot of people would. talk about it as financialization. or things of that nature. And I know that that's very much. But why do you think, Ali, that it resonates so much even. within immigrant communities? I was really surprised in this past election to see it--. and maybe you've got experience in that through.

your parents' experience--. why did that message really resonate. in Hispanic communities, in Black communities, in communities where there is great struggle? It really resonated with them that, oh, yeah, the problem isn't the wealth and the way. that the system is rigged. It really is these poorer people that are coming through. ALI VELSHI: Well, because we're just. living in a time of remarkable economic anxiety.

From COVID onward, people felt insecure. They're not sure that they're going. to be able to maintain their lifestyle, even if they're not suffering. They feel like they're one change away from suffering. Think about all the news you get. Even AI-- what do we hear about AI? Not how it might solve Alzheimer's or something. through its brute force. It's that it's going to replace your job. JON STEWART: Right. ALI VELSHI: And some of that's true. But the fact is that when people have. even the smallest amount of economic anxiety,

you can play on that. Immigrant communities, including. my own, the Indian diaspora, are guilty of this, right? If we're doing well, we're a very economically successful. community in Canada and the United States, so you worry about your own. Now, if you're doing well, you're worrying. about not losing it to taxes. So you want the tax breaks. To hell with the people who are a little behind you, or maybe where you once were. You've made it up the ladder, so this. is not my problem anymore. And we've got to start thinking a little bit more about us.

than me. One thing I've thought has been really instructive. in this whole immigration situation. in the United States is how the people of Minnesota, who are. protesting, mostly white people, by the way, and this. applies to them, they don't talk anymore. about undocumented immigrants. They talk about our neighbors. They're taking our neighbors. And I think that subtle shift is really, really important. These are our-- we are all each other's neighbors. We are all each other's keeper. You can have that fierce American independence that. is what makes this country different,

but you're still each other's neighbors and keepers. And that needs to be centered a little bit more. JON STEWART: I wonder, too, if sometimes we make the mistake. of making the moral argument. A lot of times when you make a moral argument, it's very easy. and feels righteous. And it elevates you. And we are all--. I am my brother's keeper, all these things. I wonder if we don't spend enough time actually making. the arithmetic argument--.

ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: -- or the competence. argument or the way that politicians. can make the argument. Here's where you can benefit. It's not, you need to be a morally superior person. and sacrifice. It's, here are the financial benefits to you. Here's a system where you're going to get value. ALI VELSHI: So Donald Trump says. he's going to give-- everybody got a little bit more money. in their taxes this year because of. his big, bad, beautiful bill.

Here's the better argument--. the New Deal couldn't happen. The Hoover Dam, the highway system, all that stuff. couldn't happen without an enhanced and growing. middle class who earn enough money to pay enough taxes. to fund these things. So when your bridge falls down in your town, or your bridge doesn't get built, or the roads don't get paved, or the electrical grid suffers, or the snow doesn't get paved properly when there's. a snowstorm, it's because we hollow out the middle class, because we've designed a system where. the incumbency of the rich mean that they pay less in taxes.

Bottom line. They pay less in taxes. Bessent will have you believe that most. taxes are paid by the rich. That's because the rich have that much money. They pay a smaller proportion, but it's that much more. I don't know if you-- you see these numbers. all over the place. The top 8 or 10 richest people in America. have more wealth than the bottom half. of the entire population. That applies across the world. JON STEWART: The top-- did you say the top 8 or 10 people? ALI VELSHI: Yes. Have more wealth than the entire 170 million people. at the bottom. Yes.

Correct. JON STEWART: Wow. ALI VELSHI: That's what we have to think about. But it's not a moral argument. If you're at that bottom 50%, you're not. paying much into the system. Mitt Romney said this-- he probably shouldn't have said. it-- but a certain percentage, almost half of the population, are net recipients of benefits from the government. That's because they're not making enough money. So the middle class getting squeezed is your bridges. It's your roads. It's your health care. It's your ambulances. It's your traffic lights. That's the basic stuff.

JON STEWART: And they are also paying in. I think you brought it up earlier about the taxes. and those people aren't paying as much. But if you think about the more regressive taxes on goods, and services, and tariffs-- when they talk about, oh, we're raising money, but that money. is coming from the people. So if you don't have much money, but you still have to pay a little bit more. for all of the products you get, well, you're now paying a much higher. percentage of your income.

ALI VELSHI: Yes. JON STEWART: But the other point I want to make, and I want to ask you about this, is the middle class didn't just happen. ALI VELSHI: Yes. Correct. JON STEWART: The middle class happened because. of the social engineering of the government. to create housing that was within reach--. ALI VELSHI: Yes. JON STEWART: -- for people that had steady employment, pension systems that were in reach, health care systems where you could build a life that had. those hallmarks of stability.

And why don't we acknowledge that that. was created not through a pure, profit. driven capital is king system. ALI VELSHI: Yes. Capitalism itself would never produce that. Capitalism would, generally speaking, want people to earn just enough to buy the products that--. JON STEWART: It would produce a Gilded Age like it always does. ALI VELSHI: Exactly right. So you don't want people poor in a purely capitalist system. You need them wealthy enough to buy certain things,

but not wealthy enough to-- so the gap. will always remain between the owners and the workers. We built a system where people could occupy this middle space. They could have a home. They could have health. JON STEWART: They could be a middle power. They could be Canada. ALI VELSHI: They could be Canada. JON STEWART: People could be Canada. ALI VELSHI: The middle class is Canada. That's exactly right. And people would be content and happy. And there was some chance that, if you. had some innovation, a better mousetrap, you could even be rich. That was the distinction. But if you weren't rich, your children. would do better than you. If you get rid of that, it's very hard-- this is something.

government has to think about on a regular basis, policies. at every level that encourage the growth of the middle class. And that starts with taxation policy. And that's what that bill undid last year. It continued the undoing of this idea. that the middle can continue to flourish and get bigger. It's so dangerous, Jon. It's so dangerous. But it becomes very attractive to politicians, because if you let the rich get richer--. Donald Trump said, it was a recording that leaked. during his campaign, to the oil people, give me $1 billion,

and I'll make sure that nothing stands in your way. And now we see it. That's why he carries on about windmills. all the time, like he was given a wedgie by a windmill when. he was a kid. Like, he hates--. JON STEWART: Is that even possible? ALI VELSHI: It must have happened to him because I've. never met anybody--. JON STEWART: There must have been one that. was built off the coast of one of his golf courses, and it messed up--. ALI VELSHI: Sliced him in the head or something. Like, I've never met something--. JON STEWART: Something terrible. ALI VELSHI: Like, he carries on about these things. because he has an incentive to, because the oil people. give him money to make sure that nobody.

wants anything but oil. He took off CAFE standards. These are the things we have to think about. Go back to policies that build and sustain the middle class, and everybody-- the wealthy still stay wealthy, the poor have a better chance, and the middle class at least. can think that their children will do better than they do. That system is broken in America. JON STEWART: It really is. And Republicans and Democrats have eaten away at that. system since the 1980s. ALI VELSHI: Yes, because our incentive structure for winning.

elections, because elections are so expensive, favor the idea that I constantly. need an inflow of money. Now, some people-- Barack Obama, Bernie Sanders, and Donald Trump-- have created a system where small donors. actually are becoming more influential than they. used to be-- small dollar donors, people who give $10, $15, $20, That's a better system. And I'll give Donald Trump a little credit for that, because he did attract a whole bunch of people who say, I can change the system with a $25 donation. But, ultimately, that's what we do need.

JON STEWART: So the way I look at it, maybe, is slightly different. It's that they make a production about small donor. money-- not Bernie, because I think that's sincere. and all that. But the reality is, I mean, it almost. ties together a conversation about voter fraud. and those other kinds of issues. They're on a mission, through the SAVE Act and the Make. Elections Great Again Act, and all these other things. to make it more stringent to fight against-- we're.

going to restrict voting and make it a lot more. hoops and a lot more obstacles, because out. of 20 million votes, five of them. were undocumented people that probably made a mistake. and didn't understand it. But we're going to completely ignore the $300 million. that Elon Musk puts into an election. We're going to completely ignore that he controls.

an algorithm that fetishizes his own particular skewed. white victimization worldview. How do we not see the balance of power. in elections through the lens of how money warps it--. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: -- and makes it grotesque and perverse, yet somehow the real problem--. I mean, in some ways, it reflects. the economic conversation we just had. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. Yeah. You're totally right.

And most other developed nations have a system--. some of them have term limits, some of them don't. Everybody thinks term limits are. a big answer to our problems. It's actually election spending, right? There are 21 or 23 states who are moving forward. with an attempt to have a constitutional amendment. to undo Citizens United. The bigger problem is Buckley v Vallejo, which is the one that allowed these super rich people. to make--. JON STEWART: Which one is-- is that the one that says money. is speech? ALI VELSHI: Buckley was from the--.

I believe it was in the '70s. It's the one that allowed sort of outsized contributions. through super PACs. JON STEWART: Right. Such a silly system. ALI VELSHI: It continues to be our biggest problem. But I will say that neither Buckley nor Citizens completely. foresaw the idea that individual people would. be as rich as they are now. It's just-- I mean, people are richer than countries, right? The top five, six people--. JON STEWART: Yeah, no, you mentioned that. ALI VELSHI: -- in America are richer than countries.

So we don't have a system that says, wow, you can fully. buy an election, both with your money and these algorithms. that you control, which brings us back to things that we're. trying to happen under Biden--. Lina Khan and the Federal Trade Commission. JON STEWART: Boy, she did such a nice job. She really did. ALI VELSHI: It's that control over the economy. is as bad as spending directly on elections. And we see it now with the FCC. We see it with the Brendan Carr and the media stuff. that we're seeing. Power and money are inextricable.

And we've got to build a system that protects the worker, that. protects the middle class person in America. from this concentration of wealth. It's much more serious than it was even when Citizens. United became a thing. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: This episode is brought. to you by Ninja Luxe Cafe. That's an espresso maker that's bringing your favorite coffee. shop into your home. And it has a cool name. I got a question for you guys--. you know how, to drink coffee sometimes, you have to leave your house?

What's that supposed to be? You gotta what? Talk to people? Share their space? Or would you rather just press a button, have one made in your own home? Home. That's what we're talking about. This episode is sponsored by Ninja Luxe Cafe. Now, this Ninja Luxe Cafe espresso machine, it gives you the quality brew without having. to give the barista your name and then have them read it, dripping with contempt.

Barista assist technology handles the details--. grinding, weighing, brewing. You don't have to. Ninja Luxe Cafe makes cafe quality without the guesswork. and without the drive to your coffee shop. Listeners of this show get $60 off the Ninja Luxe Cafe Premier. Series with code Stewart, exclusively on SharkNinja.com. while supplies last. That's $60 off the Ninja Luxe Cafe Premier Series.

with code Stewart, exclusively on SharkNinja.com. while supplies last. ALI VELSHI: But, you know, in this news environment. where everything is coming at you like a fire hose, we can't get to some of these policy things. You do on your show, by the way. And I think it's great--. JON STEWART: Every now and again. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. But it's hard, right? It's hard, because you may plan to. And then Trump will invade some country, and then you got to deal with that. JON STEWART: What we're talking about, I wonder if we can apply this same thing.

to our media landscape. So this idea that the incentive structure is all wrong--. ALI VELSHI: Yes. JON STEWART: -- that the financialization. of our elections, the financialization. of our economy--. could we say there's been a financialization of our media. as well? ALI VELSHI: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Now, I will, in fairness, if you. go back to the founding of this country, media was always political. In fact, newspapers were owned by political interests. JON STEWART: Whoever owned the pamphleteers were.

the Elon Musks of their time. ALI VELSHI: That's right. JON STEWART: Yes. ALI VELSHI: So that's always been the case. But, yeah, the incentives are wrong. And I don't know how we solve it. Because, really, the solution is. that you, and me, and everybody else. like us who want to maintain our freedom to say everything. we want to say form some sort of--. and I use this word because I don't have a better word, but I don't mean it that way-- form some sort of a. collective, right? Some sort of a thing in which our funding is not dependent. JON STEWART: Are you asking me to join a commune?

ALI VELSHI: Well, my grandfather. was a member-- the youngest member of Gandhi's commune. So--. JON STEWART: Was he really? ALI VELSHI: Yeah. He was seven years old. JON STEWART: Oh, so he actually--. he was with his folks. I don't--. ALI VELSHI: No, no, no, no, no. My great-grandfather sent him to live. on this commune on his own. There were 70 people on the commune. He grew up-- JON STEWART: With Gandhi? ALI VELSHI: With Gandhi. Yeah. JON STEWART: What? ALI VELSHI: Yeah, they were buddies. They were both from Gujarat. JON STEWART: Wait, wait, wait, wait. What? Your great-grandfather--.

ALI VELSHI: Yeah. He was buddies with Gandhi. JON STEWART: That's incredible. ALI VELSHI: They were both from Gujarat in India. And they both lived in South Africa. They didn't know each other, but they both had--. Gandhi was a lawyer. My great-grandfather was-- JON STEWART: Right. This is when he was a lawyer, and he. was living in South Africa. ALI VELSHI: So they both needed a bookkeeper. And they both had a Gujarati speaking. bookkeeper who they didn't know the other one had them. So this bookkeeper says, you two. guys should know each other. And so when Gandhi would get called to Pretoria, where my great-grandfather lived, to fight with the government, he was not white,

he couldn't stay at a hotel, so he stayed. with my great-grandfather. And one night in 1907, they're sitting around, and Gandhi says to my great-grandfather, I'm starting this commune-- ashram, as they called it--. and I want your son to come and be an inmate. And my great-grandfather-- JON STEWART: Wait. He called him an inmate? ALI VELSHI: I'm calling him an inmate, because it. was a horrible place, right? JON STEWART: Yeah, that is not a good sales pitch. ALI VELSHI: You had no running water. You had no meat, nothing. So my great grandfather is a businessman. And, like a typical Indian diasporic businessman,

he liked Gandhi a lot, but he didn't. want his son getting involved with this rabble rouser. So he came up with the only excuse he could. He said, Gandhi, we are Muslims. You're a Hindu. My son is seven. Who will teach him his religion? And Gandhi says to my great-grandfather, I will learn your religion and teach it to him. JON STEWART: What? ALI VELSHI: So my family learned Islam from a Hindu. JON STEWART: That may be--. that is the most buried lead story--. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: -- I think that I have ever heard.

ALI VELSHI: So I like collectives, but I'm not--. [LAUGHTER]. But the point is, our system disincentivizes the collective. of what we do, right? We all get frustrated when what happens to Colbert. happens to Colbert and what happened. to Kimmel happened to Kimmel. But there's actually an answer, because we're. the content providers. We and our teams are the content providers. We don't actually need the bosses. for this, particularly in 2026 when the infrastructure. is nothing, right? It's the internet. And so we all, in this industry,

have to think long term about how we can rebuild this. We don't have to be the victims of an FCC and. a temperamental government. We can actually create ourselves. And we've seen many of our colleagues. do it, right, where they've done their own thing. JON STEWART: Sure. ALI VELSHI: But they're one-offs. Can you imagine that power put together, where everybody. can still make lots of money. JON STEWART: If the market incentives are towards--. so if you think about it in terms. of the algorithms and things--. if the market incentives are towards outrage and not.

towards something sober, rather than thinking. of media as a collective or something that. had to follow market structures, should we think of it more as a utility? ALI VELSHI: I certainly think so. In fact, part one option is a collective. The other one that I thought a lot about is that it's. a public trust, that it is--. JON STEWART: Right. ALI VELSHI: It could go either way. The point is, media does not have. to be dependent on wealthy people for it to exist. or wealthy people funding it for it to exist.

The barriers to entry are close to zero now. The barrier is all of us who work in this industry. not realizing that the barriers are zero. and that we can do anything. And I kind of agree with you that it's outrage, but I think the hunger is for reliability. JON STEWART: I would agree with that. ALI VELSHI: People say, what about the media. being so biased? I said bias is not a problem. We all have bias. I have bias. We all have bias. We've always had bias. What we need is trust. We need reliability. We need people to say, I trust you.

I mean, Jon, I remember being at CNN when you were on CNN. and you wrecked Crossfire, which was the first place. that ever employed me. JON STEWART: Sorry about that. ALI VELSHI: No, I was long gone by the time you wrecked it. JON STEWART: By the way, I learned that from Gandhi. I was at the ashram-- ALI VELSHI: Right. Exactly. JON STEWART: -- this right-left stuff is performative. He told me that. ALI VELSHI: Now, the thing is you were right then, and you're still right now. The issue is, how do you navigate that? We don't need the intermediary of wealthy people owning. media to solve this problem. We don't need to be at-- we don't need.

to exist at their pleasure. It'll take a while for us all to figure that out. But I think that could be an actual solution. JON STEWART: Well, you've certainly. seen there are other smaller groups that, whether they start. Substacks, or Patreon, or the Meidas guys who. do the podcast network or Pod Save, you're seeing a lot of things pop up. But the larger platforms--. CNN MS NOW, certainly Fox News-- these are generally--.

well, Fox News is slightly different in that. that really began as a political mission explicitly. ALI VELSHI: Yes. JON STEWART: But it was at the behest of a billionaire. ALI VELSHI: Yes. Correct. JON STEWART: And for the other ones-- now, I imagine, and you don't have to necessarily get into it, but you've been in the business long enough to know that, like, everybody's looking at the minute to minutes--. ALI VELSHI: Yes. JON STEWART: -- which is the rating sheet that they get. And that incentive structure must absolutely skew coverage.

I can't imagine that it wouldn't. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. So I think when you look at ratings, there are a couple of ways of looking at it. You can look at minute to minute ratings. But I think the better measure is the length of tune, the amount of time people spend with you, right? So your length of tune is very high. People watch your show from the first minute. until you say goodbye. JON STEWART: Sometimes. I don't know. ALI VELSHI: That's more important than what you get. a particular minute, because people. are trusting you to curate the world around them. So you can have discussions about whether you're.

a satirist, or a comedian, or a news person. It's not relevant. You're curating the world around people. And that's what people want. JON STEWART: You're trying to earn their loyalty. through a particular--. ALI VELSHI: So smaller audiences are OK if they. really do trust you. I like to think of myself as a museum, right? Why would you ever go to a museum a second time? Because they're changing-- you might really like it, but it's the same thing. It's like watching Top Gun eight times. JON STEWART: Right. ALI VELSHI: But that's not true, because they. changed little things.

And you believe and trust that they. will do that in your interest. They have 200,000 things on display. They have two million in the basement. And they have another two million. somewhere in a warehouse. And that they will curate it for you. That's the important part of the news. Are you a trusted curator? Not the raw numbers that you get. There are lots of people out there. who get far bigger raw numbers than me. and everybody in cable news combined on a given night. It's not more relevant than whether you are trustworthy. The measure of trustworthiness, which is not what ratings. measure, it's not what Pulitzers measure,

it's not what all the awards that we get measure--. that's what it should be. The award should be, Ali Velshi is the most reliable journalist. on television, or Jon Stewart is the most reliable curator. of information on television. We don't measure that. We should. JON STEWART: And I think it's--. first of all, I think that's a wonderful way to put it. I think of it as framing things not as right and left, but as corruption versus integrity. ALI VELSHI: Yes. Because that's not right and left. 100% of people should be against corruption. JON STEWART: And why isn't that--. I always thought there was space in the media landscape.

for a news organization to go after that. with the same intensity that Fox goes after what it goes. after-- a kind of Roger Ailes of veracity. or whatever that works. And I don't mean that in the sense of--. and this is always something that. drives me crazy about media when they say, well, we're here to call balls and strikes. No, you're not. ALI VELSHI: Not now. JON STEWART: Not ever.

ALI VELSHI: Yeah. Yeah. JON STEWART: The minute you say "our top story," you are. making a subjective judgment. Own it and earn it. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. So there are only two things that matter in journalism. JON STEWART: Right. ALI VELSHI: It matters for you. It matters for me. And that is that we bear witness, number one. And that's why we send reporters to things so. that our people can actually say, I saw this with my own eyes. I spoke to people, because our viewers, and listeners, and readers can't go to Gaza, or Israel, or Ukraine, or whatever themselves. So bear witness is number one. JON STEWART: Right.

ALI VELSHI: Hold power to account is number two. That's it. That's the beginning and end of what we should be doing. Are we bearing witness? And we need resources to do that, because you have to fly places and have resources. And are we using that information. to hold power to account? And if everybody just took that seriously--. holding power to account is not a left-right thing. It's power. That's money or people in government, whoever it is--. JON STEWART: That's right. ALI VELSHI: --making them answer difficult questions. on behalf of your viewer. JON STEWART: Do you think we've been effective-- you know,

I guess that's maybe my frustration with media is have. we been effective-- it feels like the chasm. between democracy dies in darkness. and what we actually present to the American people. is really wide. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: And has media reckoned with that gap? ALI VELSHI: I think it continues to reckon. I think it's on a lag. And I think it's done poorly, generally speaking.

And we have all learned--. I remember years ago at CNN, people used to tell me, well, you work for corporate media. And I sort of say, well, what do you mean by that? Like, why would that make me any better or worse? I've just got resources to do what I'm doing. Now, it's a word that stings, right? MS NOW is now independent, and that is. actually a little different. It does--. JON STEWART: Does it feel different? ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: The ratings are up, but tell me. about-- because now, this is really. interesting-- because you said it before-- corporate media. I think what they mean by that is, again--.

and it gets back to the markets discussion. we had earlier and immigration, in some respect-- it's. about what is the incentive system? Has it been financialized? Who are the shareholders? How has this thing, the incentive machine of markets. and media, whether it's rewarding. attention, or hostility, or outrage, or short term interest--. how has that changed since you are. no longer under the same corporate umbrella?

ALI VELSHI: Well, look, we're still a public company. So there are earnings. And we have to figure that out. But the distinction is because we're not. tied to a company that has an FCC license, the range. of threats that can be waged against us. are just smaller, right? Nobody can threaten to pull a license. Even at MSNBC, I mean, Trump would say it all the time, MSNBC doesn't have a license. Cable companies don't have licenses. JON STEWART: So what does the absence of corporate cowardice. do for you as an on-air personality?

And I say "corporate cowardice" in the sense. of I've been in those meetings where they say, we can't really do that. Why? We have this other thing going. And DeSantis sued Disney. And we don't want to have that happen to us. So we don't want you to poke that bear, all that kind of shit. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. It takes away a level of threat, right? It means the idea that we can't cover X. because we will face retribution from the government. goes away. It doesn't take away the commercial pressures. of, hey, Velshi, people have to watch your show. But I can do that. And you can do that.

We can curate a show knowing what our viewers want. and build that up ourselves. We don't have to follow some centralized corporate construct. for that. So they don't impose one on me because they. say, well, your show seems to work pretty well. Anything you could do to make it work better would be great. If you'd like our help with that, we'll give you that help. But for the time being, you're doing OK. Now, my viewership starts to go away. I'm sure the bosses will have a conversation with me. But that's a normal public company discussion. that you would have if you were at Coach, or at Walmart,

or wherever the case is. And you might argue, and I'd probably. be with you on this, that that probably. shouldn't be the discussion. But that's what corporate America is. And, for the moment, that's what we live with. But we don't live with the threat. that we can't say this because the government will get. involved, which, by the way, is not a thing we used. to think about at all before. People in Hungary thought about that--. and India, and Turkey, and Israel, and Iran, and China, and Russia. Americans now have to think about that, which sucks. JON STEWART: So that's the added. incentive layer for a corporation.

to move you away from things. It used to be, this thing isn't rating. When you talk about that, you're not rating-- now, they say, you're not rating, but they might also add, and you're also drawing attention. from government institutions that we. don't want attention from. ALI VELSHI: A, because we don't want to be sued. And B, because maybe we want to have this merger. that requires FCC approval. So those two things are an added weight on corporate media. that didn't used to exist.

JON STEWART: Are those explicit, Ali? Are those mentioned-- like for us, the explicit conversations. we'll have in a room is sometimes they'll. call back and go like, eh, I don't know if they want you. to say that about Paramount. I don't know if they want you to say that about Arby's--. or a sponsor. Or try not to say "dildo" that many times. Like, those were-- like, we would. literally have those explicit conversations in the back room.

In the programming meetings, what are the explicit concerns. that arise? ALI VELSHI: They don't occur in programming meetings. They occur at the level of a segment and its script. And it is--. JON STEWART: Oh, that's interesting. ALI VELSHI: --almost exclusively. to do with legal exposure. JON STEWART: Oh. So mostly, it's always just legal. ALI VELSHI: Exactly. And we welcome those discussions,

because I'm not a lawyer. So I like the lawyer looking at it and saying, this exposes you to something. And it's generally not put forward as a condition. It's a, I just want you to be clear, you're exposing yourself by saying x or y. And, obviously, we don't tend to go into these places. where we're exposing a lot of people, but that's the concern. We have a remarkable standards and practices department, but they don't see it as their job to curate. for our viewers what happens. They see it as their job to tell you--.

JON STEWART: Where your exposure is. ALI VELSHI: You're going into an area, you just need to know that you're going into this area. Are you comfortable with that? So that is one of the freedoms that we have. And I will say, even at MSNBC, we had that. It's just more so now that we're a public company, and we still share some ownership with NBC. JON STEWART: So in the editorial meetings, because I've heard this from people that work in news--. and maybe this is more networking, but I think also at CNN and at MSNBC, I would imagine--.

is the conversations about what segment was going to be done, whether it's through the producers, might be, that's a dead horse. You're hitting it. That's not going to draw-- or those types of concerns. How much of it allows for your own editorial. authority and compass? ALI VELSHI: I would say it's almost complete. JON STEWART: OK. ALI VELSHI: We'll hear-- and we'll see it. We'll see it in the ratings if something doesn't resonate.

But to my earlier point, if your viewer. is the type of viewer who trusts you and watches you. from the beginning to end, they'll put up with something. that they maybe don't think is the best. segment they've ever seen. I remember I used to be told that climate, which is something I cover a lot, doesn't rate. So I just made it my business to make it rate, just to do it in a way that causes people not to tune out. JON STEWART: That's interesting. ALI VELSHI: There are all sorts of ways. to do that with any story. I was also told a few years back, not as an admonition, just as this whole democracy.

thing that you're into, [LAUGHTER]. ALI VELSHI: Not sure it's always--. not sure it's going to land. JON STEWART: This whole democracy thing. ALI VELSHI: But that was nobody telling me not to do it. They were just saying, if you want to be really big, you may not want to lean that far into it. I have full support of my network. in doing this democracy thing that I do, because it's become a central argument. Now, I will say, as an economics reporter, Jon, I do understand that when you pull the lever in the ballot. box or you cast your ballot, economics.

still generally rates higher for almost. everybody than rights. JON STEWART: Right. ALI VELSHI: But, you know what I'm saying, you put the two together, and that should inform your vote. [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: Folks, today's episode. is sponsored by Incogni. Now, I don't know what you're doing at home. I don't know what you're doing on the computer. I don't know what you're doing on the websites--. and no one else should know it either. Thousands of companies are collecting. and trading your personal data-- your personal data. Let that sink in.

And you know nothing about it. Scammers are using this information. to craft convincing phishing emails, which truly every old person that I know has fallen for. Incogni helps protect your privacy, takes your personal data off the market. They reach out to data brokers on your behalf, requesting that your personal data is removed. With Incogni's custom removals feature in the unlimited plan, you can point to any website where your personal information. is visible, and one of their privacy agents. will take care of the rest for you.

Go to Incogni.com/Stewart and use code STEWART for 60% off. Incogni helps wipe yourself from the internet. They can't harm you if they can't find you. Click the link below to claim your 60% off. and get your personal data off the market. Incogni.com/Stewart. So thinking about it in terms of markets, because I think. that's that's kind of an interesting place to take this, because you are so expert in economic reporting.

and the economics of things. We always talk about pricing in risk. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: Because of the economics of news, have they priced in the risk of what can happen to a democracy. that allows itself to be ruled by the passions of news, as opposed to the foundations of it? And have we made that mistake?

ALI VELSHI: I don't think we've priced in that risk. And I think part of that is that Americans are really. lucky to have not understood what slipping into the abyss. looks like. If you come from a country where you've just recently. been out of the abyss--. Brazil is a good example. Why did they prosecute their former president? Because they had the risk in recent memory of what. happens when a country goes wrong. My parents, as triple immigrants. and me as a double immigrant, we know what that looks like. I think Americans don't understand the relationship.

between a bad media, and corruption in government, and democracy as clearly as they should. Americans believe that this democracy. will endure no matter what. I think we're starting to see real evidence--. but sometimes, honestly, people have had to be shot in the head. before we've seen this. But we're starting to see it. And your politics along the political spectrum. start to melt away when you realize, I don't want any part of this. Because once you start going down this road, it's really bad. But I don't think people see it as their responsibility.

to fix the media, nor should they, right? It's up to us to say, are we doing the right thing. for this moment? And if we're not, do we adjust ourselves to be more relevant? Remember, for all the viewership. I get, and it's pretty good, there's 340 million. people in this country. Most of them are not watching me or you. JON STEWART: Right. ALI VELSHI: And so we're competing for everybody's. attention, not between each other, but for everything else that people are doing. It's a bright, sunny day in New York.

I'm competing with people who'd rather. be outside than watch my show. So we have to think about this. JON STEWART: Well, not in two feet of snow. I would say that in the spring. Right now, you're in pretty good--. ALI VELSHI: They're probably gonna watch it. JON STEWART: --standing, with a little blanket on there. But it does-- it sort of wraps around to the conversation. about collectives and people working together. Because when you're in a system that's financialized. or maximizes just shareholder value--. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: --in those kinds of things,

I think those systems are less resilient. ALI VELSHI: Yes. Correct. JON STEWART: I think those systems are more fragile. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. Because the incentives don't--. even with companies. Let's say you're not in the media. If your incentives are just the shareholder, you're not going to perform as well. as if you include your workers, your customers, your Earth--. your country, your neighborhood, and the Earth. JON STEWART: You're not pricing in all the externalities that. should be of a main concern. You're focused on short term growth.

And I can't help-- and maybe this is. an overreach metaphorically--. but I can't help but think media is suffering. the same difficulty that our economy. is writ large because of that. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. Because we are-- the report card is quarterly earnings. It's not necessarily how happy your staff is. and how reliable you are as a news organization. I've maintained for many, many years.

that all companies should think about all of those things--. and sometimes you see it happen. So when Indiana had its trans bill many years ago, companies reacted to that because their employees. wanted them to. And in a world where unemployment is under 5%, you have to be careful that you're not. going to lose workers because they don't believe in you. and they don't trust you. So we started to think about workers. We had a pretty good union year a couple of years ago. where unions had their voices heard. We are starting to think about the Earth. We are starting to think about the communities in which we.

live, but not enough. Not enough. Corporate America is actually more trusted than government. or any other institution. People are begging for them to take a lead. And yet, what do we see? We see companies making deals with ICE. and all sorts of things like that. I think there's a real opportunity. for corporate America to say, we've. got it better than anyone else in the world does. We make more money. We do better. We've got a great workforce. We've got all the inventions. We still have immigration. Let's be on the right side of history.

A lot of people are making the wrong decision on that. JON STEWART: And I think within the media, it gets back to-- you talked about it earlier. You said it's about what you earn with your audience. And I wonder if, in media, they've squandered some of that. based on those incentives. So, for instance, we'll go back to, like-- there's always. that rush of, like, now we've got Trump, and the Mueller. report, and it's Mueller time, and all these things--. and the hype machine that generates that, whether it was.

for action in Iraq or accountability. through these special counsels, that it raises an expectation. of its audience. ALI VELSHI: Yes. Yeah. It's a dopamine rush. JON STEWART: Right. And that there will be consequences. ALI VELSHI: Yes. Yeah. JON STEWART: And the more you run. on that hamster wheel, or gerbil wheel, I don't know who runs on the wheel. My rodent work is not great. ALI VELSHI: I believe it's a hamster. But I imagine you could get any rodent. JON STEWART: I appreciate that.

Most of them, I would think, need. to lose a couple of pounds. ALI VELSHI: Except squirrels. They couldn't pay attention. JON STEWART: Thank you. I wonder if that begins to numb your audience to consequence. And is that where the trust has been lost? That not only is it about holding to account, but it's about tempering their expectation. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. And I think we can present ourselves differently.

I think you do, for instance. The narrative-- you're kind of like the funny. professor, right? [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: That is the worst thing I've ever been called. ALI VELSHI: But it's a bit of a course. Like, your viewer could get a continuing education credit. for listening to you all the time. because you do learn something out of it. But you put a little dressing around the whole thing. JON STEWART: Right. Little zhuzh. ALI VELSHI: And I think that's OK. You can put a little zhuzh, but you got. to tell the important stories. JON STEWART: Well, you've got to have contact--. you've got to be very careful. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. It can't all be the world's on fire all the time, because then.

nobody thinks there's a fire. It can't all be breaking news, because then. nothing is breaking news. JON STEWART: Correct. ALI VELSHI: It can't all be about this is the thing that's. going to take Trump down, because, actually, your goal. needs to be more important and more sustaining than taking. Trump down. It needs to be fixing our society as it relates. to incentives in media, as it relates to poverty, as it relates to health care. These are not actually terribly hard fixes. These are all things that the world can do. Given the technology that we have, we can solve all these problems.

There's a real danger in associating. everything with Trump, because Trump will go away. And you'll still have all these problems. And you'll still have this movement of 35% of Americans. who trust nothing and want to tear it all down. We have to fix the system. And that means people understanding the system. and understanding their role and their agency. JON STEWART: That's really interesting. I like that. ALI VELSHI: Do you know why a third of Americans don't vote? Because they don't trust any of them. And I understand why.

Our goal should be to cause them to trust. the system-- to say the system will work in your interest. in these ways. And I understand it. You can't convince somebody who's. screwed by everybody to vote. And so we have to think about the system. But it's unsexy. So we've got to make it interesting. JON STEWART: And is there a market. for helping people understand what. the infrastructure, and what the civics are, and what the system is? Because they seem almost uninterested in it.

Even within just this most recent tariff decision. on the Supreme Court, which is incredibly consequential--. and it sort of displays that gap between how time moves. in a democracy, constitutional republic, and how time moves in an authoritarian system, the Supreme Court takes eight months to go over the brief. They got a nuance. We're going to put out a thing. Here's the three dissenting opinions. Here's the other. And they finally put together this nuanced dissertation.

on how executive overreach worked. in terms of these tariffs. And two minutes later, Trump is like, all right, I'll. just make it 15% on everybody. And you're like, what? ALI VELSHI: Yeah, yeah. JON STEWART: It's that difference. that is really difficult for the media, because I found all. their questions were about--. I just kept seeing people be like, so are you going to say hello to the justices. at the State of the Union? ALI VELSHI: Right. Right. A question that must never be asked. JON STEWART: Why do you give a shit? ALI VELSHI: Yes.

JON STEWART: Why would you even bring that up? ALI VELSHI: Yes. And that's right. Again, holding power to account, right? If you took your job seriously as holding power to account, that question would never occur to you to ask. The issue here-- and part of this is that if you can take. the time to get away from the outrage, and to explain to people what they need to do, and you can trust that at least 2/3 of American, when provided with the right information, will at least have an opportunity. to make a good decision-- that's where this goes, right? I am going to trust you, my viewer.

You don't have to absorb my outrage. I've got opinions like everybody else does. You don't have to absorb my opinions. I will just allow you to understand what's going on. And you'll come to your own conclusions. And I still have a great deal of trust that, when given proper information, people. will make sound decisions. JON STEWART: But what's so interesting, I think, about what you're saying, and I think what's. maybe missing from the media conversation, is the education piece. ALI VELSHI: Yes. But if you say that, it's like nobody wants-- you say civics. or you say education, that's like Sunday school, right?

Nobody wants it. But the thing that you can provide. is that, the education piece. I would sign up-- if Jon Stewart said, you get a certificate-- if you can prove that you watched all. these shows, you get some kind of, hey, I went to Jon Stewart School. I'd put that on my resumé. JON STEWART: I really don't know what that--. I don't see that you walk into somebody's office. and they've got that framed up on the wall. ALI VELSHI: But imagine if you actually put it on a resumé, because an employer would ask you, what on earth. is a Jon Stewart continuing education certificate? And you'd say, I watch it every week because I want. to understand the context of the stories in the media,

because the media is too loud, and too busy, and it's a five-alarm fire all the time. That's interesting. JON STEWART: But does that get to the collective aspect. of this, then? Is the idea of a news organization-- the one thing. that I will say about the right wing media machine, it is an organism. And each part of the organism works. together to create the health of the entire organism. ALI VELSHI: Yes. JON STEWART: You've got the Hannity's. the endoplasmic reticulum, and Ingraham is the mitochondria. And they're all working together on a cellular level.

towards a specific goal. I don't see the same level of coordination. And even within that system, should those 24-hour networks. be designed for that very purpose, not to promote a particular, like you say, political ideology, but to promote that contextualizing--. ALI VELSHI: Contextualization, reliability, truthfulness. JON STEWART: It's about specialization--. ALI VELSHI: Yes. JON STEWART: --as opposed to every show.

being a microcosm of the same thing. ALI VELSHI: Yes. It's a very loose--. it's a loose federation, maybe better than a collective. I'm not talking about this being about convincing people. ideologically through outrage. I'm talking about making people better. at making decisions for themselves because of context. JON STEWART: So, in other words, if we think about it in terms of an aperture, even though we've got more news than we've ever had before, if the aperture is narrow and everybody is focused. through that same narrowness, we don't see the larger picture.

that would have more efficacy for how we might. want to help fix this system. It's about having an immune response to these things. ALI VELSHI: That's correct. JON STEWART: Yeah. ALI VELSHI: And that makes our job not outrage machines, but we are contextualizers. We prove that we are reliable. We are explainers. And you have to trust, in a democracy, that the democracy is up to the people. So the failure of democracy right. now is that people don't have good enough information.

That's what I think. JON STEWART: Are there discussions. within these organizations of how the shows can. work together to be force amplifiers. or to paint broader pictures? Or is it, like you say, is it fiefdoms? ALI VELSHI: Well, it's not that. But I will say, I think we benefit at MS NOW from the idea. that if you watch us through the course of the evening, Chris Hayes, or Rachel, or Lawrence, or Jen Psaki,

they approach the same things differently. And so I think you get--. I think that is where capitalism. actually works, where you tell people, here's the goal. You decide how you're going to get to that goal. And if the goal is lots of viewers, so that lots of people. watch our ads, so that our revenue goes up, fine-- how are. you going to do it that way? And I think that might be better. than a centralized command, which is what Fox had. and what CNN had under Jeff Zucker. And it worked for CNN under Jeff Zucker. And it worked for Fox under Roger Ailes. But I think we've always had a slightly different philosophy,

back when it was MSNBC and MS NOW, that we don't want. Chris Hayes to be like Rachel. We don't want Jen Psaki to be like Lawrence. We don't want me to be like any of them. JON STEWART: But you're really not, actually. Like, that-- I will say this, you present a very different--. I consider your show much more essayistic. ALI VELSHI: It is. JON STEWART: In a good way. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. Yeah. No. I appreciate it. JON STEWART: I mean that very positively. ALI VELSHI: I take it as a compliment. Yeah. And we have to be careful that I don't indulge--. I don't indulge myself too much and make.

the audience ever think I'm listening to an essay. JON STEWART: No, no, no. I understand. ALI VELSHI: But, yeah, I approach it differently. And it works. Nobody's told me not to do that. In fact, they like it. So I think that's the point, that that's. the beauty of this freedom. We get to choose the way we're going to do it. But if you asked us all, we would. say the goal is to have a more informed. audience so that we have a better informed democracy. JON STEWART: And viewing ourselves. through the lens of trying to maintain the audience's trust.

that what they're being presented. isn't being presented to them to push. their emotional buttons, but to create. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. I'm not worried about the viewer. knowing what my opinions are on things, because I have opinions. And they should know that. And I can lean into that. But my job is not to convince you of what. your opinion should be. It should just be to tell you the information. you need to know. JON STEWART: Right. So it's not in the sense of, as we extended the metaphor. of financialization and how economics-- and I was just.

thinking of it as you were talking of the government. helped create the middle class by making programs that made. homeownership more accessible, by creating a GI Bill, by doing all these things that helped there. And I wonder if that's the 21st century project is to create. the middle powers of news. ALI VELSHI: Yes. But it won't come from the government, nor should it, probably. JON STEWART: Right. ALI VELSHI: So people who have power.

and influence in the media today need. to be thinking about this. We need to have summits and say, how do we achieve that goal? And there'll be an answer. JON STEWART: And how do you think AI-- do you believe AI--. I happen to think, while AI is going to have, I think, pretty devastating consequences, especially. for what you would consider to be the professional class. and those kinds of things, the only thing that could probably. help unravel it is AI.

If you can engineer something bad, you could probably reverse engineer it. And I think AI is going can be a powerful tool in unraveling. the manipulation that we're all experiencing. through these algorithms. ALI VELSHI: It would be amazing. That would be a great use-- there are a lot of great uses. for AI, including the solving of diseases. that just require brute force engineering that AI can do. But that would be a great one. But I thought social media would be that, right? I was an early adopter thinking no one will.

ever be able to lie again, because the crowd will. correct them. But how wrong I was. So I do think that that's a good--. I was talking to the head of the Teamsters. Union, the other day, and he said, for once, a massive change in technology. is not going to hit us first. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: Absolutely. ALI VELSHI: He said, it's going to hit. you guys before it hits us. JON STEWART: No, man. Listen, Teamsters are going to be the last guy standing. ALI VELSHI: He said, until they figure out. a way to deliver something with a robot-- he said, it'll come. But your jobs are going to go first. JON STEWART: Right. Right.

Right. Well, listen, Ali Velshi, I very much appreciate. you spending the time with us. You got today or-- no, I think we're taping this Tuesday. So tonight is the State of the Union. This will probably come out tomorrow. I'm going to speculate very quickly. on the State of the Union. I think halfway through it, he will be eaten by a bear. Now, I don't know if that's going to happen--. [LAUGHTER]. --but I'm taking a stand right now. He's delivering it. He happened to invite a bear to the State of the Union. to make a point about--.

ALI VELSHI: Something. JON STEWART: --and the bear, ultimately--. ALI VELSHI: The bear eats him. Anything can happen. JON STEWART: --ended up eating him and half of Congress. That's what I'm saying. Is there anything in particular that you're--. is this pro forma tonight? Is there anything that you're particularly looking to clock? What's your game? ALI VELSHI: Yeah. When Pam Bondi was before the House talking about Epstein. and they asked a very direct question about who's been. investigated-- and she said the Dow is above 50,000.

and people have more money--. this is what he goes to all the time. And the idea that metrics are not-- the State of the Union. is not economic metrics. But he's going to lean into how great. it is, truthfully or otherwise--. some things are true. The Dow is up. But how that affects everyday people. is not what he says it is. But he's going to lean into how well we are doing. and how the Democrats are lying about it. JON STEWART: You know what I find interesting. about the Trump phenomenon--.

his style is so suited for running for office--. ALI VELSHI: And not so suited for governing. JON STEWART: --and so ill suited--. his hyperbole, his, this is terrible. It's never been this bad. I can't believe it. I could fix this. ALI VELSHI: Yeah. This would've never happened. Yeah. JON STEWART: That's right. Because when you're running for something, You don't need to be able to quantify reality.

ALI VELSHI: Yeah. JON STEWART: But when you're in charge of it, well, then, the distance between your words and reality. become consequential. ALI VELSHI: It is the zero accountability administration. JON STEWART: Yes. And hopefully that changes. But, young man, thank you for joining us. Ali Velshi Hosts Velshi, Saturdays and Sundays, 10:00 AM on MS NOW. I urge you to listen to it. It's a great listen on the weekends, and also co-host "Happening with Velshi and Ruhle". on MS NOW's YouTube.

Good to see you, my friend. ALI VELSHI: Thank you for having me. [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: Velshi. Do you guys--. I listen on the weekends when I'm doing my gardening. [LAUGHTER]. But he really does present a nice kind of essay--. he's not doing what those other shows are doing. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. Like he said, they all have their own style. JON STEWART: Right. But I think he does something--.

the other shows, I think, follow the circadian. rhythms of social media to some extent, through different styles. But they're all presenting a different version of. that same kind of news speed. GILLIAN SPEAR: Like allocating 30 seconds for the first story. type of thing. JON STEWART: Yes. And it's the first story that was at the top of Twitter. and jumped--. and did all that.

I feel like he's not in that game. GILLIAN SPEAR: No. If anything, I remember seeing-- what's. the bridge that Trump is threatening. between Canada and the US? He was saying that--. JON STEWART: Oh, the Gordie Howe or something like that? GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. He'll take a threat, and instead of saying, Trump has threatened this, he'll. actually go to that bridge as a topic. and see how it actually would affect people. if the threat went through. And I think that kind of differentiates. him from a lot the news out there.

JON STEWART: I think that's a perfect point. And it does it in a way that-- and he'll tell you the history. of that bridge so you'll understand the context of, is this unusual, how it's being done. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I have found that Rachel. does that too, though. And I know she's on the network less and less these days, but I always found that her first act, she really kind of zooms out really big. and hides the ball, even, with where she's going. You're like, I'm learning a lot about the 1950s right now,

what's going on? JON STEWART: Right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: And then suddenly, she sort of lands the plane. GILLIAN SPEAR: That's its own method. Like, wait for me to connect the dots. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: I mean, my problem is she works, what, one day a week? GILLIAN SPEAR: Exactly. JON STEWART: What the fuck? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: What is she doing? GILLIAN SPEAR: Velshi's working weekends. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Who gets that type of a schedule, Jon? Do you know anyone? JON STEWART: That's what I'm talking about. I say, Rachel, well, you can't go in there. on a Tuesday on a Wednesday? You're just going to come in there? What are you, some kind of old man. who's afraid to leave his house? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Do you think they mandate. those glasses on MSNBC? Oh, MS NOW.

JON STEWART: Hilarious. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: MS NOW. JON STEWART: Well, everybody on--. like, the thicker they are--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Ruhle has them too. JON STEWART: --the more I think that they're recording us. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Well, I thought they were Meta glasses. JON STEWART: Right? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: No, they're MS NOW glasses. Yeah. JON STEWART: Did you guys see-- this is completely off topic--. when Meta went to--. I guess they went to court, and they. all wore their Meta glasses. And the judge is like, you can't record--. what kind of fucking-- do you want. me to hold you in contempt? You stop recording right now, you idiots.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: That's so dystopian. I hate that. GILLIAN SPEAR: What did they say? But they're so cool. JON STEWART: Right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: But you don't understand, we're early adopters. Sons of bitches. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: There was a video that went viral. a few months ago where a woman on the subway. just took a guy's Meta glasses off, broke them in half. And then he's recording her on his phone. And he's like, this girl just broke my glasses, and she's just dead eye staring at him. JON STEWART: She's the new Bernie Getz.

She's the new hero of the people on the subway. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: A good one. Yes. That's my vigilante. JON STEWART: Yes. The vigilante that's going around breaking. people's recording glasses. GILLIAN SPEAR: The wonders of the subway. JON STEWART: Exactly. Brittany, what are the people thinking today? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Alrighty. Jon, any predictions for Trump's State of the Union? JON STEWART: I mentioned this to Velshi. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I know. JON STEWART: I think he's going to get eaten by a bear. Now, I know that that has yet to happen.

I don't know what the odds are right now on him. being eaten by a bear, but they're not nothing. I think, like, I will be stunned. if it's not exactly what we all think it will be--. an overly long--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: That was the one promise he made. He said. It's going to be long. JON STEWART: Did he really promise that already? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes. He said, it's going to be long because we. have a lot to talk about. GILLIAN SPEAR: And look for the Polymarket. bet on exactly the minute it's going to take. JON STEWART: I mean, I honestly don't even know.

if I can bear to listen to it. I just don't. It's become so self-evidently detached. from any form of reality that I understand or experience. It's actually angering to have it just be so covered, and sanitized, and washed. And I think I'll have a hard-- are you guys going to listen?

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: What's the point of it at this-- like, what's the point? JON STEWART: It becomes an exercise in, like, a theatrical presentation. It's like going to see Cats but nobody's going to sing. It's just like, why are we all dressed up leotards then? So, yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I just can't handle--. I think it's so funny that the US. Men's hockey team gets to go as a prize. to the State of the Union.

JON STEWART: They're psyched, man. GILLIAN SPEAR: Good on the women for turning it down. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I just, like, is there any worse way. to bask in the gold than to suffer through two. hours of his ramblings? JON STEWART: Yeah. Maybe that's the new, like, we're going to Disneyland. Like, you just won a gold medal in the Olympics. What's going to happen now? We're going to a bicameral legislative session. where people are going to discuss some. of the programs that are going to become-- wow, that sounds very exciting. GILLIAN SPEAR: Enjoy it, buddy. Bring a beer. Yeah. JON STEWART: Right. And then you're going to probably, like,

drink beer out of a cup-- out of the Stanley Cup. What else we got? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Classy. Jon, on a list of 18 potential Democrat nominees--. JON STEWART: How many? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: 18. JON STEWART: Oh, dear god. There's 18. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: You were listed at 13. Do you think you should have been higher or lower? JON STEWART: I think I should have been on a different list. [LAUGHTER]. That's what I think. I think somebody has been making the wrong lists.

I thought, like, wouldn't it be nice to be like young actors. to watch. Or how about this? Zaddies. Silver foxes that still--. that's the list. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: They got those lists. JON STEWART: You want to be on the list. with, like, Jon Slattery. Like, you want to be on that list. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh, that's a good one. JON STEWART: The Zaddy list. Everything's a list. Were there really 18 candidates? What's that on? Just, like, speculative. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Nate Silver. did it, a New York Times.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. Nate Silver did a listing-- or ranking. JON STEWART: Right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I think Newsome was one, AOC was two. JON STEWART: Newsome. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Went through the whole thing. JON STEWART: Newsome. Newsome has been training for this. This is his Olympics. He's been training for this his whole life. Do you guys remember when we interviewed him for the show, and it was about prison reform. And I sat down with him, and the first thing I said, I go, like, pretty handsome, right? I just want to tell you something, look at me--. yeah, this shit doesn't last forever.

Just understand, like, this is coming for you. And I looked at his eyes, and I saw genuine hurt. [LAUGHTER]. I think he was genuinely like, that's how-- what? I'm going to end up like-- no. That can't be. GILLIAN SPEAR: No. He's been sleeping in, like, a cryogenic chamber. to put this off. JON STEWART: Right. I felt like I was giving him, like, a little bit of Christmas. Carol look into the future, like I am. the ghost of Christmas future. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: He got his LA doctors on the phone. immediately after that interview.

JON STEWART: Right. As soon as he went in, he went with his team and go, that cannot happen. That cannot happen. What else? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We have one more for you. JON STEWART: All right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Jon, why do you hate Punch the monkey? JON STEWART: Oh, man. Look at you. All right. For those of you who are listening at home, Gillian's face--. I think I just broke Gillian. I don't--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yes. I love the monkey.

JON STEWART: I don't hate Punch the monkey. But I do enjoy sometimes trolling my wife. [LAUGHTER]. GILLIAN SPEAR: I love that that was an audience one. Punching down is what's happening here. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: But let me tell you something, and I say this with all due respect--. the free ride for Punch is over. GILLIAN SPEAR: Oh, shit. JON STEWART: No, the thing was-- so, obviously, looke, those videos are awful. And they're heartbreaking.

And what would someone who is dead inside, what would be the worst thing they could say about it, which is maybe the monkeys know something about Punch we don't. [LAUGHTER]. Maybe Punch is racist. In monkey world, maybe they tried to befriend Punch, and then Punch talked shit behind their backs, and they're like, that's it. I'm done. My only point was, who are we to impose. our anthropomorphic and human values on the wisdom.

of Punch's tribe? Is his mom, the elders, and the other-- are they all wrong? GILLIAN SPEAR: His mom. I can't do it. It's too sad. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. So you hate Punch. That's it. JON STEWART: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. LAUREN WALKER: You're asking the hard hitting questions. JON STEWART: Thank you, Lauren. LAUREN WALKER: No one has the guts to ask. JON STEWART: What I'm saying is let's be skeptical here.

Let's not just jump on the Punch is the hero. GILLIAN SPEAR: We're all going to find Punch's. old tweets in a day or two. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh, no. JON STEWART: See, look what I've just done. I've turned Gillian around. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: You broke Gillian. LAUREN WALKER: She's a skeptic now. JON STEWART: We started out, and she was all in on Punch. And now she's thinking, well, you know what? Let's take a look back and see. GILLIAN SPEAR: Let's fact check this, shall we? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Never check the socials. Never check the socials.

JON STEWART: I swear to god, there's been almost nothing. I've ever done on the show where I. felt an immediate where the--. like, they gasped. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Well, you had the little photo. JON STEWART: They audiblyd I had the photo of Trump up, and I go-- and I wasn't supposed to do it. I had to stop because I'd been doing it all weekend. I'd been doing it all weekend with Tracy. I kept saying, all weekend, I go, honey, I'm just saying this-- what. do we really know about Punch? [LAUGHTER].

What do we really know? Aren't we substituting our lived experience for his? So, yeah, I'm backing off the Punch. He's actually great. Although apparently, he's doing much better now. Everybody likes him again. Apparently, he's hanging out. People are grooming him. GILLIAN SPEAR: Oh, thank god. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: He just needed a little attention. JON STEWART: I'll tell you who the big winner of a Punch being. re-accepted into the tribe is, that fucking stuffed.

monkey he's dragging around. GILLIAN SPEAR: She gets a break. JON STEWART: Because, as I said on the show, like, when Punch hits puberty, that's no longer a comfort toy. He's wife-ing that bad girl. Like, that puppet's getting wifed. That's all I'm saying. Listen, great job, as always. Brittany, how do they stay in touch with us. for the scintillating Punch updates? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: They love it.

Twitter, we are WeeklyShowPod. Instagram, Threads, TikTok, BlueSky we. are WeeklyShowPodcast. And you can like, subscribe, and comment. on our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: Fantastic. And I figured out how to collaborate, so you guys will send that to me on Instagram. And I'll hit yes. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Accept. JON STEWART: Oh, I didn't do that? Or--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: You do do it. You do. JON STEWART: I do do it. OK. Sorry. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: A+. JON STEWART: All right, all right, all right. Yeah, somebody got mad at me because I. tried to put a song up, and I only put.

up, like, 40 seconds of it. And I was like, well, I didn't know that it. didn't do the whole thing. So I gotta figure that one out. But thanks again. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mehmedovic, producer Gillian Spear, video editor and engineer. Rob Vitolo, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, and our executive producers Chris McShane and Caity Gray. Thank you guys so much. We'll be back next week to discuss the chain of succession. after Trump is eaten by a bear. It's going to happen. All right. See you next week. Oy.

The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount. Audio and Busboy Productions. [MUSIC PLAYING].