The ICE Age of Surveillance and Enforcement | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

RADLEY BALKO: --was one ICE-- former ICE person told me, the FBI is the varsity team. ICE and HSI are the junior varsity. And Border Patrol is kind of like the drunken office. softball team. And like, that's-- that's basically. who the administration has put in charge of everything. JON STEWART: And by the way, if you're Border Patrol, what are you doing in Minneapolis? Is that-- so are they guarding the border to St. Paul? Like, what are we doing? [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Hey, everybody. Welcome to The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart.

Hi, my name is Jon Stewart. It is Tuesday, January 27. And the polar vortex continues to lock in the shitty feeling. that everybody has in America in this present moment, where--. although, actually the way that the people have stood up, the resilience that everybody has shown in Minneapolis, the resilience that those who have said this is not. an acceptable manner by which the government can do anything.

to the people, and the pushback against the idea that those. that are protesting against it are somehow against getting. murderers off the street, like all the lies. and misrepresentations that the government is trying to force. down people's throats have been exploded. in the very specific disproving of their narrative by video.

And that video is video that's taken. by courageous people that have decided to protect. their fellow citizens. And you can't be more proud of something than that. But how do we get an understanding. of, what are the mechanisms of how this is all occurring? That's the thing that I think we're going to talk. about on the show today. It's sort of this nexus between state power and now, kind of, these overarching technological advances that.

are being weaponized and fed into state power, and how that's being used to hyper-charge. this entire deportation pursuit. I think we have got two people that are going to discuss some. of the-- the real specifics of this. through the companies that are being granted these hundreds. of millions of dollar contracts by the government. and the police departments that are facing.

a real uphill battle, as they're seeing. these militarized forces and don't want to be mistaken. for that because those are-- the police forces. live in those communities. They're the ones that are actually. trying to do the right thing by their citizens. And these other, more alien forces. are coming in and creating the chaos. And we're going to do that with two. real experts in this field--. Radley Balko and Joseph Cox. [MUSIC PLAYS].

So we are joined today by two individuals. who really have this beat covered. in such a terrific way--. Joseph Cox, co-founder of 404 Media and the host of the 404. Media podcast, which is really influential in terms of looking. at the tech world and how that intersects what's been. happening, and Radley Balko, investigative journalist, author of the book Rise of the Warrior Cop--. Militarization of America's Police Forces, the publisher of the Substack newsletter, The Watch.

First of all, Radley and Joseph, thank you for being here. RADLEY BALKO: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. JON STEWART: Radley, I've been reading your stuff. for-- for decades now and your work on-- and consistent work--. on civil liberties. How are you experiencing this moment that you seem to have. foreseen many, many years ago about this militarization. of-- of police forces and now this Border.

Patrol force that massed and--. and up-armored? RADLEY BALKO: Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing. is I'm getting a lot of credit for having predicted this, and I don't actually think I did. It's actually-- when I've debated people. from law enforcement about police militarization. over the years, the debate is always--. there's always been some common ground, which is that police, you know, exist to serve the public and keep the peace.

and that it's bad for the military. to be doing domestic policing, that that's not. something free societies do. And we disagreed about methods and tactics and accountability. and where that trade-off between civil liberties. and public safety is. But there was always that kind of common understanding. And where we are now is you have an administration. and its defenders who are just openly stating. that these federal law enforcement forces, which are.

basically paramilitaries, exist not for public safety. but to carry out the will of a single person, of the president. And you have a president who's just openly saying, we need the military marching up and down US streets. doing day-to-day policing. And so, I mean, I think this is why you're seeing so many law. enforcement officials also express a lot of alarm at what. they're seeing because we are just in a completely. new frontier at this point. JON STEWART: And speaking to that frontier, Joseph,

I think this is sort of where you come in because as Radley. talks about the militarization of these forces and the roaming. through at the behest of one man, they're also using the most sophisticated technology that. has ever existed to help them geo-map where. their-- their targets are. Is that been the focus of what you've been doing? JOSEPH COX: Yeah, absolutely. And I've actually covered the proliferation of technology. among police forces, as well. I've done that for a long time, where there's technology that.

can track the location of phones. or intercept text messages and calls, all. of that sort of normal stuff. This is different. ICE is on, like-- and DHS more widely, to be fair-- is on basically a surveillance shopping spree. They're getting all sorts of stuff, like access through local cops to AI-enabled cameras. They can track cars, phone location data, map interfaces. that bring up the location of all the immigrants they may. wish to target, even right up to, like,

phone-hacking technology, which is very powerful and very, very controversial. But if you can imagine it, there's. a good chance ICE has also already imagined it. and probably also got a check in the mail. to buy that technology. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS] Well, they've got the budget. I mean, this is something-- when you talk about the tools. that they have, they have been given a budget that is larger. than the military budgets of every country on Earth.

save the United States and China. JOSEPH COX: Yeah, and they're clearly spending it. And to be fair, some of this stuff. isn't even that expensive. Like, you can buy data from a broker that. can show the location of all the phones. in a certain neighborhood and then track them home. And that's going to be tens if not hundreds. of thousands of dollars. It's basically pocket change to them at this point. And every day, when I just scroll through US government. procurement records-- that's all. I do all day, every day, essentially,

trying to find interesting or scary stuff--. there's always some sort of new purchase in there. JON STEWART: And, Radley, let's talk. about-- so I remember the quaint old days. You remember the quaint days when you'd watch a police. show and they would, you know, 'you didn't read me my rights.'. And then they'd have to let them go. And, like, it was these little things. Like-- but you'd have to ask politely to come in. We're seeing on the street--. I'm seeing guys on the streets of Minnesota. after the-- the murder of these two individuals.

who were there, saying to people on the street, didn't you learn your lesson? Like, literally just wandering through the town is--. is what's happening here. I want to talk about-- let's talk. about the arguments that are being made that are, I think, overly simplistic. The first one is, I guess you want rapists. and murderers to go free then. So if you complain about the militarization of this, you're only-- we have two choices in this country. You can either have rapists and murderers go free that are here.

illegally, or you just have to allow a militarized police. force to do what has been traditionally. civil enforcement. RADLEY BALKO: I mean, the third option is. you could elect them president and appoint them head of. HHS, right? Referring to the rapists. Yes. JON STEWART: Yeah, exactly. Well done. But-- but that-- isn't-- isn't that the point, that they-- they give this false impression that--.

I think what most people would say in this country is, we would like the police and ICE and everybody else. to target people who have committed bad crimes. in a process that still honors our Constitution. and the Bill of Rights. What we don't want is what seems to be overly aggressive, poorly executed, trawling expeditions where. five-year-olds and grandmothers and people of mistaken identity.

and people in Target parking lots. aren't getting the shit kicked out of them in an effort. to satisfy Stephen Miller's bloodlust and his quotas. RADLEY BALKO: So, I mean, it was always. going to be like this, right? When you look at the numbers during the campaign, the sheer number of immigrants that they were claiming. that they were going to deport, you were never. going to be able to get to that number. by arresting the worst of the worst. because to get the worst of the worst,

those are the people who are not. showing up for court hearings. Those are the people who are in hiding. And so it takes investigation. It takes resources. It takes 8- to 10-man teams to go out and track these. people down and arrest them. And so what you saw is, very early on, you saw Stephen Miller--. there's a, sort of, infamous reported meeting. that he had where he was screaming at people and saying, we need to be raiding Home Depot parking lots. We need to be casting these wide nets in the community. And the other thing that I think is the really damning.

thing is, for a long time, ICE prioritized. the worst of the worst. Like, that was who we directed our resources at. And that makes perfect sense. When Trump took office in 2016, one of the first things he did. was deprioritize going after the worst of the worst. and prioritize going after migrants, so people who were. here seeking asylum, people who didn't have a criminal record. Biden revoked that policy. And then Trump, within his first week of office last year, put it back in place.

And so they aren't targeting the worst of the worst. They are going out and getting whoever they can, wherever they can. They're going to places where every stereotypical, kind of, racist asshole thinks all the illegals are, right? Those are the places where they're going. JON STEWART: And they're doing it very disingenuously. I mean, the idea that-- and if you question it, they really do say, oh, so I guess you want rape-- like, as though it is a binary. And, Joseph, what has so, I think, stunned the nation, besides the thing, is the blatant lying.

I mean, technology is a two-way street. Now that we have all this surveillance and video, but now we also see the citizens surveilling. and the citizens catching video that absolutely. disprove the narratives that are being. put out by the government. JOSEPH COX: Yeah, I mean, that clearly applies. to both of these shootings, right, where civilians and witnesses have been filming. on their own mobile phones and doing their own form. of surveillance. And I don't really want to think about what.

would happen if we didn't have those cameras. in everybody's hands. They're clearly a very, very good thing. That said, the flip side, when ICE officers or Customs. and Border Protection officials use their own cameras, they have this facial recognition app on there, which even gets stuff wrong. [CHUCKLES] They'll scan somebody's face. And we've reported a case where they pointed the phone. at a woman's face they were detaining, and it returned two different names.

And initially, when I heard that, I. thought, well, at least one of those names has to be wrong, you know? Everybody doesn't have two names. And it turned out both were wrong, as well. So there's a very strange irony in that civilians and witnesses. are using their own cameras to figure. out what is actually going on and posting on to social media. Then we can all see it with our own eyes. And then some of the technology, in at least some. cases, being used by ICE apparently. doesn't even work as advertised anyway.

I don't know. I just find that a very strange disconnect. JON STEWART: Do you think there's something--. because as we talk about it, when you think. about the methodology of--. of technology and using all these tools to track, it takes people out of the idea that they're human. and puts them as almost prey. It feels like, by creating these databases--. I think one of the issues that really has struck me about this.

is it would not be possible if you. viewed these immigrants or these worst. of the worst as individuals. If you viewed them as individuals. and with-- with individual metrics of their cases, and these are people we need to get, it's a very different mindset than when. you begin to view it as a hoard of data and metrics. JOSEPH COX: Yeah, I'll give you an example.

JON STEWART: Yeah. JOSEPH COX: There was some really interesting testimony. from ICE and Customs and Border Protection officials in Oregon. It came out in December, but I think the raid was in October. And they were talking about going. to a neighborhood because it was, quote, "target rich.". Like, these are the terms that these people are using. They're not saying, oh, because there are a lot of high-profile. potential criminals there or something like that, or even. just using the word "people.". They don't use the word "people.".

They use the word "targets" and "target-rich.". And that testimony was incredibly telling because not. only did it describe some of the technology. they were using-- and we went on to write about that, all the Palantir stuff-- but hearing how they describe. a particular neighborhood. Exactly like you're saying, they're. not describing them as people. It's going back to the quotas and all. of that and this list of targets-- or even-- not. even a list. Just find targets. That's the goal. [MUSIC PLAYS]. JON STEWART: Hey, kids, how's your-- what.

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And use code "Jon Stewart" to get four extra months. [MUSIC PLAYS]. Is this-- Radley, in your experience, as you've watched this, is this an utter change from the way--. like, are we talking about something that has nothing. to do with policing, that has nothing. to do with even the complaints that we might have. about militarization? Is it-- are we in a whole different Minority. Report kind of world here? RADLEY BALKO: I mean, I think we are. I mean, you know, one of the things that really struck me.

before Renee Good, there was a man. in Chicago who was killed in a remarkably similar situation. He had just dropped his kid off at school. They rushed his car. He tried to get away. And they shot and killed him and claimed that he. had tried to run them over. He was clearly fleeing. He happened to be an undocumented Mexican immigrant. And so you didn't see the kind of swell. of support and sympathy. But what really struck me was the-- the press release that. DHS put out right afterward. And I've written about so many police.

shootings over the years. And I've had lots of critiques of the way that the police. departments-- you know, they use what I've come to call. the "exonerative tense," which is like, 'a gun was fired, and a bullet struck a person,' you know, not 'a cop killed someone.'. You know, you can criticize the-- the bias. in the police investigations, internal affairs. But at least those press releases over the years. have said, we promise a fair, thorough investigation. At least there was some solemnity for the fact.

that someone lost their life, right? And-- and what we've seen from this administration. after these killings is just jubilation and joy. And they describe these-- the guy in Chicago, they described him as a criminal, illegal alien. They don't refer to him as a person. I think they used his name once in the entire press release. And there's no pretense of--. of a fair investigation. I mean, it is almost-- the way that they describe the people, the way that they instantly pass judgment,

you know, they're sabotaging their own investigation. before it gets started. But that's because they never intended to conduct one anyway. JON STEWART: Right. Well, they're conducting the investigation themselves. My favorite thing was it was very clear. that all of the visual evidence showed. that the narrative that Homeland Security was. putting out was utterly false. And so the question was, well, who's. going to investigate this? And they're like, oh, we'll do it. And the whole point was like, oh, OK, OJ. Well, I hope you find the real killer because it. sounds like a very fair--.

RADLEY BALKO: Well, it's what scholars. who-- who study authoritarianism call. performative lying, right? This isn't lying to cover something up. or to get away with something. This is-- when you lie in a way that everyone. knows you're lying, it's a projection of power. You're saying, we can get away with whatever we want. JON STEWART: Have we moved from this idea of, like, OK, police. forces that may have been utilizing heavy-handed tactics. or made mistakes into an entirely different arena? Are we talking about something different than-- than what we.

were talking about previously? RADLEY BALKO: It's completely-- we're in completely. uncharted territory. I mean, these are paramilitaries. These are what-- these are the kinds of things, the kinds. of muscle that Trump has wanted going back to his life. in the private sector. I mean, he's always admired-- he praised the Tiananmen. Square crackdown. I mean, he-- he has always admired. these kinds of paramilitary forces. that can do a strong man's bidding. And that's what he has. I mean, they use their legal justifications in court. They know their case law. And so they'll say, oh, things are-- you know,

crime is soaring here. There's an insurrection. Immigration officers can't do their job. But then in their down moments, like, you see. what they're actually about. So Trump, you know, posted on social media a couple of weeks. ago that the reason he sent these forces into Minneapolis. was because he thinks he won Minnesota all three times. and local officials stole it from him. And that's why they're there, right? In Los Angeles, Kristi Noem says federal forces are going. to be in Los Angeles until they liberate. the city from its socialist political leadership, right?

I mean, that's-- those are the reasons why they're there. JON STEWART: It's retribution. And I even think, you know--. Joseph, if you heard--. and I don't know even if you heard this--. but Pam Bondi-- they said in Minnesota, look, this is untenable. Our citizens are living in fear. There's blood running through the streets. We're-- this is creating a war zone. for the people of-- of Minneapolis. and Minnesota in general. And Pam Bondi said, well, we can make it all go away. if you just give us not your murderers, not your rapists,

your voter rolls. What the fuck? JOSEPH COX: An insane, disingenuous. trade-off, obviously. And, I mean, I echo everything that's. just been said in that they put out. these incredibly misleading, incendiary statements. You simply can't believe what this agency says now, even to the point where that makes. my job as an investigative journalist, like, a little bit more difficult. Of course,

we're not relying on what DHS is saying. JON STEWART: Right, right. JOSEPH COX: We have sources inside the agency. But even something as simple as, well, I. have to go to DHS and get comment because even. though ICE is out of control, I still try to be fair, you know? And you just can't take a single word that they say. on face value to the point where we've even thought about, do we even ping these people anymore? Like, do we even-- when we're about to reveal. a surveillance technology--. JON STEWART: What does access do for you? Yeah. JOSEPH COX: Right.

And, you know, I don't really have official access. or anything like that. I just have my sources and my leaks. and all of that sort of thing. But it's just this complete culture of lying, where they've shown themselves as an agency that. just can't be trusted to present. reality in basically any form. JON STEWART: So let's talk about that as--. as it relates to the intersection between state. power and corporate power because, right now, that seems to be the nexus of something that. has magnified this geometrically, as opposed.

to a sort of linear way. This new authoritarian force that is clearly. lying about the facts on the ground. is basically turbocharged by private corporate technology. companies like Palantir that are allowing the government. to explore in a really kind of obtuse way,

where it's not transparent in any way. What about the nexus of corporate cooperation with. this use of government power? JOSEPH COX: Yeah, I mean, the second Trump. administration is obviously drastically. different to the first. I remember, in the first one, when we were covering. surveillance companies or tech companies, they would be a bit wishy-washy. They didn't want to fully commit to anything. You even had, I think, Amazon stopped.

selling its facial recognition tech to certain police forces, of course around George Floyd and BLM. and all of that sort of thing. I mean, the mask is off now. [CHUCKLES] All of those tech leaders. were at the inauguration, at the dinner. Tim Cook giving Trump, like, a golden statue, an iPhone. or whatever that was. I don't know. I assume--. JON STEWART: The saddest thing I've ever fucking seen. It was so sad. JOSEPH COX: It was pathetic. And when you then look at the companies that are.

powering this, like Palantir--. I've got leaked material from inside Palantir, and other journalists have, as well. The way they frame it is that, well, if we work with ICE, we can make their work more efficient, accurate, fair, and all of that sort of thing. So that's how they justify it. And they're, 'no, no, we're protecting civil liberties. by working with ICE,' even when you have the CEO of Palantir--. Karp, right?--. JON STEWART: Right. JOSEPH COX: --who says, we must defend Western democracy,

we must defend Western values, while at the same time. providing the technological infrastructure. for the agency that now says it can go. into houses without a warrant. I just cannot square that circle. And I've legitimately tried. I read Karp's book. I read the new book about Palantir, as well. And I'm really trying to join those ideas together. And I just can't because it just appears. to be a complete farce to me. JON STEWART: Well, and it's undercut by their co-founder, Lonsdale, who comes out and says, well, this is an insurgency.

This is-- and, Radley, what is that--. and again, we talk about corporate power. But now you're also infusing corporate power with a kind. of-- it's really ideological. These-- these tech guys, whether it's Palantir, whether it's Thiel or Karp or Lonsdale or Yarvin, who is the guy-- like, these guys are all tweeting like, 'hey, white people are in trouble. And Christianity is in trouble. And I'm not even sure the human race should not be transhuman.

and not even still exist. But we're still going to create all these tools.'. How can people not feel like we're in a dystopian Skynet. situation, where the merging of authoritarian government power. and unchecked, non-transparent corporate power that. is manipulating all of our-- our--. how can we not feel like this is in some ways.

the beginning of an Avengers movie? RADLEY BALKO: I mean, it is. You know, I kind of think if-- if George Orwell had, like, written a book about our times, his editor. would have rejected it as a bit sort of heavy handed. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. RADLEY BALKO: There's just no--. I mean, you literally have people--. Yarvin, you know, yearns for monarchy, right? He-- he-- somebody posted something.

he wrote about 10 years ago--. JON STEWART: Right, Trump's too soft. RADLEY BALKO: --where he talks about how, like, mentally ill. people should be confined in, like, these tiny, little spaces. for the rest of their lives and shown, like, virtual reality so that they can live a fulfilling life. but locked in this room. Like, these are-- like, he is a-- he has been cited. by JD Vance as a major influencer on Vance's. political development. I mean, we're, like, being run by the most, like, deeply dorky, loser, like, 4chan message board.

Like, those are the people running the country now. JON STEWART: And they've been empowered. Joseph, you've been looking at this. You know, within Palantir itself, not at the executive levels, is there. dissent amongst the people? You know, I remember there was always those emails that would. get released every now and again from, like, the Twitter. headquarters or something where people would be like, hey, man, I don't think this is such a good idea. JOSEPH COX: [CHUCKLES] Yeah, the vibe is basically that. I would say that the leaks are rarer from Palantir.

than normal tech companies, than from Meta. or X or something like that, because, of course, you know, Palantir is kind of a big, scary company. to a lot of people. JON STEWART: And do they hire for ideological uniformity. in the way that they accuse the left of doing at Twitter? JOSEPH COX: I would say they're actually ideologically diverse. inside, among the employees. Like, of course, I'm not really talking about the executives, as you just laid out. But among the employees, there are. absolutely left-leaning people inside the organization.

I don't obviously really talk about my own sources. But I will say that clearly people have been annoyed enough. with what Palantir is doing with ICE to leak me, you know, internal documents about it, internal Slack chats where Palantir executives are trying. to defend their work with the agency, and everybody is responding to it with emojis. and all of that sort of thing. JON STEWART: And let's be clear about what their work is. We should probably explain to people-- explain very quickly, what are the tools that these tech companies are developing.

for the government that they are using. to help them in this Stephen Miller. wet dream of a-- of a fantasy. JOSEPH COX: Yeah, so it started last year. when they got this leak and they looked. through procurement records. And it said that Palantir was working on "complete analysis. of target populations," a fantastically. obscure term that says a lot--. JON STEWART: What the fuck does that mean?

JOSEPH COX: --and also says nothing. at the same time, obviously. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. JOSEPH COX: So we continued reporting. And, like, oh, it's clear they're working on something. And to be clear, Palantir has worked. with HSI, the investigations arm. of ICE that investigates cybercrime, child abuse, money laundering. They've done that for years. But now, in Trump II, they've pivoted. to explicitly enforcement--. immigration enforcement. So that-- we report that. And then we don't really know much until, recently, I. got another leak of a user guide.

from ICE explaining something called ELITE. And that's another acronym, which I can't even. remember what it stands for because it's. also really complicated. It doesn't really say anything. But basically, I found that was being worked on by Palantir, by looking around the net. And it provides this map interface. where ICE can draw a circle on a map, then brings up a list or little points. of all of the potential targets there. Again, I'm using the word "targets.". You then click on one.

It brings up their name, a photo--. JON STEWART: Where are they getting. that-- yeah, what-- what defines a potential target? Is it a Spanish-sounding name? Is it a Social Security number? What data are they using to define these targets? JOSEPH COX: So with the tool, ICE is able to arbitrarily. choose that. They can get a sort of message from headquarters. or senior leadership to, we want to target. this sort of population. Now, the leak I got doesn't say Somalis. It doesn't say that--.

but it just lays out how to use it. JON STEWART: No, but the government. made that pretty explicit. JOSEPH COX: Yeah, yeah, I think people can draw the line. But you then zoom in on the map, you click on a person-- name, date of birth, photo. if they have it, and, most importantly for ICE, addresses and an address confidence score. So 88 out of 100, 99 of 100, it's this person's address. And that's so important because if you remember when there was. all the Doge stuff, of all of this breaking down of the walls.

between different agencies--. JON STEWART: Yes! JOSEPH COX: --there was clearly data sharing going on--. JON STEWART: No! JOSEPH COX: --where the guide I got--. JON STEWART: This all ties back to Doge? JOSEPH COX: Potentially. All I'll say is-- JON STEWART: Fuck. JOSEPH COX: --that the guide says some of the addresses. at least come from the Department of Health and Human. Services, which I don't think people. expect, when they give their address to the Department. of Health, it's going to end up in the hands of ICE. or into this Palantir-worked-on tool that ICE is also using.

So as I'm covering it as a journalist, as other people are as well, it does feel like we're. all sort of doing one big jigsaw puzzle, but we're all coming at with different corner. pieces and that sort of thing. JON STEWART: It's a weaponized Cambridge Analytica scheme. Let me-- so here's, then, what-- what is blowing my mind. about this, if I can say. Like, this is high-tech, 21st-century, cutting-edge biometric analysis to find their target things. So, Radley, explain to me then how these motherfuckers end up.

with a net at Home Depot or beating. the shit out of the wrong people in a Target parking lot. They're using the most sophisticated information, analysis, and tools known to man. that no government has ever had access to to get these things. And yet we see them out in the streets. just like a hammer, going like, get over here! Like, so what is the point of all that? The idea seems to me that this could.

be a targeted, precise, nuanced police action. on the worst of the worst. But instead, it's a hand-fisted run. through a Target parking lot. What the-- what is going on? RADLEY BALKO: So the targeted worst of the worst, using that technology to its-- its capacity, you. know, as worried as I am about all of that, if that was only what they were doing, if that was their interest here, you know, I don't think a lot of us would be nearly as alarmed as we are.

The problem is that's not the goal. The goal is to instill fear. The goal is to make entire immigrant communities--. to scare the shit out of them, to make them not. want to live their lives, to make them. tell their relatives to stay home because it's. too miserable here. It's-- it is to scare people. It's to make them suffer. I mean, this administration has-- has openly. said that they want immigrants to suffer as much as possible. because they want them to self-deport. They want them to leave. They don't want to have to go through, you know, whatever due process they still are willing to afford.

these people. That's expensive. [MUSIC PLAYS]. JON STEWART: What's up, kids? You know me as a gentleman, you know, who is nothing if not incredibly organized, you know, as someone who has everything. Really, I'm like-- what do you call it there? Type A. I guess they call it type A. What is it when--. when you're completely organized and you have--. OK. All right, I am not organized.

I am incredibly sloppy and, in fact, old, which is a terrible combination. And life is really-- for the most part, 90% of life. is keeping track of things-- bills, appointments, keys, et cetera, subscriptions that you didn't. even know you were paying for. I think I spend, I think, maybe around. $30,000 a year on Sirius radio for cars I've never even had. That's-- that's where Rocket Money comes in.

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[MUSIC PLAYS]. [DOGS BARKING]. Radley, you're saying-- I thought it was incompetence, to be honest with you. And by the way, Radley is with his dogs. right now because there's a terrible storm where he is, and he's had to have his dogs. And-- and I saw them earlier on camera. And I gotta say, pretty adorable. You got some big old, pretty, adorable dogs there. RADLEY BALKO: Yeah, we're-- we're in a hotel with. a lot of other dog owners. So Oscar hears some people outside, but it's OK. JON STEWART: Dog hotel. I think I saw that movie. But normally, as a sort of skeptical but not necessarily.

conspiratorial thinker, I generally. try not to chalk up to nefarious intent. what can be easily explained by incompetence. RADLEY BALKO: Right. JON STEWART: But their incompetence. feels like we can't chalk up--. it feels nefarious. RADLEY BALKO: I'll say I think there's a little bit of both. I think that they are-- they've clearly lowered their hiring. standards for these agencies. They've put Border Patrol in charge of these operations, which is pretty well known as being kind of the-- or as one.

ICE-- former ICE person told me, the FBI is kind of the varsity team. ICE and HSI are the junior varsity. And Border Patrol is kind of like the drunken office. softball team. And, like, that's-- that's basically. who the administration has put in charge of everything. JON STEWART: And by the way, if you're Border Patrol, what are you doing in Minneapolis? Is that-- so are they guarding the border to St. Paul? Like, what are we doing. RADLEY BALKO: Yes. It's-- it's mission creep. But it's also because they--.

Border Patrol has a long reputation of being rogue, of being extremely abusive, of not having much accountability. And-- and I think this gets to the second point, which is that is who the administration. wants in charge of this. They want to inflict terror. They want to scare people. They want people to be miserable. They've-- they've flat out said, the reason they--. the reason for family separation during the first. term is they wanted people to know that if you come. to the United States seeking political asylum, they're going to rip your children out of your arms. We want you to suffer because we don't.

want you to come here anymore. And if you're already here, we want you to suffer because we. want you to leave voluntarily. JON STEWART: And that's the way--. so this is all-- it's of a larger plan, which gets. us into sort of this idea. So it's a supposedly Republican conservative administration. And my understanding of conservatives. has been limited government, pro-Second Amendment. I mean, I'm watching every constitutional guardrail that.

is in place to prevent these kinds of abuses be thrown away. by the people who fetishize the Constitution, who--. who bubble wrap their tour buses with "We the People,". who stand with the Gadsden flag, who do all these--. the-- the cognitive dissonance of all this. is-- is blowing my mind. Joseph, what's-- what is the ethos anymore of this group?

They certainly can't argue that they are pro-constitution. and yet want one man to control the most. sophisticated technology in the world. to target these individuals. It doesn't make any sense. JOSEPH COX: Yeah, I mean, they can't. say they're pro-Second Amendment when apparently. having a legal firearm that you are licensed to carry. apparently gives some sort of justification for you. to be shot in the street. So they can't say they believe that.

The Fourth Amendment, when ICE buys this location data, they believe they don't need a warrant. They don't have to get a warrant. and go to AT&T or Verizon like they normally would. They-- here, they just send tens. or hundreds of thousands of dollars to some data broker. And the legal rationale is that, well, if people didn't want to be tracked, they would turn off location services on their phone. So they're willingly giving it up, even though nobody listening to this. has any idea what I'm talking about because it's such.

an obscure technology that nobody reads about it. or nobody knows about it, right, until we reveal it. So of course, that's completely facetious and a farce, as well. And then, of course, most worryingly. is the memo the Associated Press first reported on that, as I said, ICE believes it can now enter private property. without a judicial warrant. And I mean, [CHUCKLES] there was already. several red lines for me personally, obviously, before that point. But that is just absolutely nuts to me. RADLEY BALKO: When I wrote the Warrior Cop book,

I did a lot of research on the founding era. and why we have these traditions of not letting. the military serve as domestic police and why we have a castle. doctrine and all that. And in part of that, I found archives from a Boston. newspaper when the British had put. troops in the streets of Boston to do day-to-day policing. And you go through those archives--. and I just wrote about this on my newsletter--. and you can find excerpts. And they go on for years and years. But the descriptions-- it was sort of like a social media.

feed of the time, like an old-timey--. it was like first-hand accounts of like--. like, you know, a soldier got into a scrape with--. JON STEWART: Twitter by pamphleteer, sort of. RADLEY BALKO: Right. JON STEWART: Yeah. RADLEY BALKO: But you look at the scenes described. in those accounts, and they are remarkably. similar to what we're seeing coming out of Minneapolis. And I think that's in part because this. is an age-old problem of you don't have-- you don't put. the military in the middle of cities. to police their own people. And the anger from-- from the tension in Boston of having.

those soldiers there are why it eventually will. lead to the Boston Massacre. But it is specifically why we have a Second, Third, and Fourth Amendment, because you had soldiers who. had these general warrants. They had the power to break into anybody's home. at any time to look for untaxed goods, right? Well, what's ICE trying to do now? They're claiming they could break into anybody's home. at any time without a warrant to look. for undocumented people, right? I mean, the parallels are so incredible. And as you said, I mean, the hypocrisy is just stunning.

because the conservatives are always. pointing to the founding, always pointing to, you know, what a just and righteous cause the American Revolution is. If they had been alive at the time in Boston, they would have been accusing, you know, Sam Adams and Paul Revere of being agitators. and domestic terrorists. I mean, it's guaranteed. JON STEWART: And insurgents. They don't understand, like-- and by the way, like, love Donald Trump. Say what you want. Follow him blindly, religiously, whatever you want to do. But don't tie it to the revolution and patriotism.

because you guys are the Tories. You'd be the ones that were on that side. And you know what was, I think, the most galling. to me, guys, was, you know, look, first of all, I don't even know what the Republican. Party or the conservatives even are anymore. I have no idea what sort of intellectual foundation. they're standing on because it doesn't seem. to have any coherent value other than, what do you think, Donald? And then he says it, and they go, that sounds right. So what truly upset me was to see them all talking about,

I mean, this guy showed up with a gun, and they quickly got off the, like, he was brandishing it. when the video there-- but they're still saying, I mean, you're not allowed to do that. And they fetishize it. And I think what was galling to me is, you know, they're willing to suddenly challenge. their Second Amendment rights in this instance. But when a bunch of kids were gunned down in a fucking, like, grade school at Sandy Hook or in Uvalde, not a word.

Not a word about, hey, guns might be an issue. We might want to think about that. It-- it took a guy holding a phone trying to protect. a woman who had just been pepper. sprayed for them to finally go, maybe. everybody shouldn't be armed. And that's the part that stunned me. RADLEY BALKO: And Kash Patel said that, you know, don't bring a gun to a protest. Kash Patel offered to help Kyle Rittenhouse sue Joe Biden.

and the media for character assassination. when he brought his guns across the state line. I mean, Greg Abbott, the governor of Texas--. there was a guy in Texas during the George Floyd protests who. texted a friend saying, "I'm going to go kill a protester"--. who posted online in a forum, "I'm going. to go kill a protester," and then went. out and killed a protester. And Greg Abbott pardoned him. I mean, he was convicted by a jury, and Greg Abbott pardoned him. That guy brought a gun to a protest.

for the specific purpose of murdering someone. And Abbott, because he was a right-winger and killed. a, turned out to be libertarianish protester, not a far-left protester, but Abbott--. Abbott pardoned him. So it's all hypocrisy all the way down. JON STEWART: And look, in Florida, DeSantis has been very clear. If you want to use your car as a lethal weapon on protesters, be my guest. Is it-- are we in a situation now, Joseph, where all of these tools-- nobody. cares what happens as long as the tools of the state. are used against people that they hate?

Is that the-- is that the philosophy now? JOSEPH COX: Broadly speaking, it seems that. And usually the carve-out would be, don't worry, the tools are being sold to HSI, again, the, quote, unquote, "good guys" part of ICE, that sort of thing. But when you have data from the Cato Institute. saying that something like 90% of HSI officials. who would usually be actually trying to catch the bad guys, and they get all the fancy tools, now they're helping with immigration enforcement,

I mean, it's like, again, the breaking down. of data barriers between government agencies. And now you have the--. the guys with the really fancy tools. trying to find undocumented people. I mean, some of these tools also--. and I'll be very careful in what I say here. because I haven't seen evidence it has. been used against protesters. But the phone location data stuff, the company that. sells that is called Penlink. It's a big US contractor. They explicitly advertise their phone.

location tools to monitor BLM protests. back when that happened. Now, that is the product that has. been sold to ICE and to HSI. JON STEWART: But if they reverse-engineer. those products-- for instance, there are certain products. that can track ICE. Those are being banned. JOSEPH COX: Right. I've reported extensively on ICEBlock being removed. from the Apple App Store. I mean, Apple even removed an app that wasn't even reporting. sightings of ICE officials.

It was just an archive of videos from, like, TikTok. and stuff of ICE abuses. And Apple took that down, which is going even a step further. There was no doxing, no surveillance. It was just like, we would like to preserve videos. so, in the future, we might be able to hold. some people accountable, legally and justifiably. And Apple took that down. JON STEWART: We have to hold so many things in our head. Radley, I'm sure you remember the 1984 Apple. commercials, where Big Brother's on the giant screen.

and all the--. the people are watching. And somebody takes a sledgehammer, throws it through, and 'think different' and all that. And now they're the screen. RADLEY BALKO: I mean, the other thing that I think is worth. pondering here is the way that they're going about recruiting. people, right? I mean, they--. I've written a lot about police recruiting. and how they select people at the very. first stage of the process. And you used to be able to-- you probably. still can go to YouTube and type.

in "police recruiting video.". And you'll see this really vast range of videos. So what I think would be a productive video would show. cops, you know, helping people in a community, right, assisting people. JON STEWART: Like the Kendall Jenner Pepsi commercial. They come out, then they get a Pepsi, and everybody's healing. RADLEY BALKO: Everybody-- yeah, right. But you want to emphasize, like, the community. service aspect of it, right? Well, on the other end of the spectrum, it's--. too many police departments, they're recruiting videos. are blaring guitars, people--. cops repelling out of helicopters,

sicking dogs on people. When that's what you're appealing to. at the very first step in the process, I think that's indicative of a police agency. that-- that doesn't have the right priorities. And what we're seeing with ICE and these federal. anti-immigration groups, you know, on social media--. how are they trying to recruit to people? They're appealing to blood and soil narratives. They are making explicit references to white. supremacist literature. JON STEWART: I mean, some of that iconography. that they're using, the iconography is.

not even an echo of fascism. It's-- they could be sued by Mussolini. for copyright infringement. RADLEY BALKO: It's-- it's an amplification, right. And beyond that, though, I mean, they're also--. they're content creators, right? I mean, I remember the first-- one of the first videos we saw. out of Los Angeles, you saw ICE agents. chasing this guy, this immigrant down the sidewalk. And then behind all the ICE agents, you saw another DHS employee carrying a camera running. behind them to get it all, you know, on video for social media. JON STEWART: Oh, like a Cops episode.

I see. RADLEY BALKO: Right. And if you think about, like--. like, who is watching these horrific videos that we're. seeing, like sitting at home, unemployed, and thinking, you know what, that's. what I want to do for a living, like, that-- that is-- they're not horrified. They're excited by it. JON STEWART: Well, I imagine it's people--. you've just been pardoned for your role in January 6th. You're having trouble finding another job. And you see this commercial. I mean, that-- the people that I've. seen-- and here's what-- what is really troubling to me. Like, I know a ton of cops and firefighters.

Like-- and maybe I'm too close to it. I have such love and respect for those guys. And I know what they're trying to do and help. people and good hearts. And-- and this makes their jobs infinitely. harder because of the way that-- that people. are viewing it. They're not separating any of the two out. And I will say this. I think that the flood of weapons into our streets. and our inability to have any kind of sensible regulation.

of even the illegal weapons creates an arms race. on our streets that inevitably leads. to a militarization of police because they. can't be outgunned. Like, the insanity of our gun policy. is what leads them to be in danger in the first place. So they overly militarize, start to use this technology, and now we're caught in this vicious cycle. where all of a sudden the one problem with it. is a legally permitted gun at a-- at a protest, rather than what has started this arms race.

RADLEY BALKO: You know, I think the one. way I would push back a little bit on that narrative is that--. JON STEWART: Yeah. RADLEY BALKO: --I have talked to a lot of law enforcement. people, particularly reform-oriented law. enforcement people, and they're furious about what. they're seeing. They're absolutely furious. I agree with you. But I will also say that, you know, one of the biggest supporters of this president, one of the biggest supporters of--. or opponents of gun control measures. are police groups and particularly police unions. JON STEWART: I was going to say unions and sheriffs. I wouldn't say-- like, sheriffs are--.

they're political. And unions are-- are relatively political, as well. RADLEY BALKO: I think big-city police chiefs. JON STEWART: Yes, big-city police chiefs are like, we got to get these guns off the streets. RADLEY BALKO: Exactly, right. But the unions are extremely-- and also, the NRA. is one of the most absolutely pro-police. organizations around. Like, they-- they can't bring themselves to condemn. any of these shootings. I've also-- I've often pointed out. that one of the weirdest things the NRA ever did was they. went-- went to war with Colin Kaepernick. And, you know, Colin Kaepernick was actually a gun owner.

Like, they could have actually made some inroads and--. but it was more important to them to, sort of, be this symbolic, kind of, pro-cop organization. And I think that nexus-- it's hard to get around, I think. JON STEWART: Well, it's also hard to get around-- if you are. somebody who feels you see something. wrong in your society, it's hard to get around, what are the rules of acceptable protesting? So you can't go out there with an iPhone. You can't go out there with a whistle. You can't try and help a woman up who's been maced.

You can't bring your car. You can't-- but you also can't take a knee. RADLEY BALKO: You can't kneel before a football game. JON STEWART: Right, you can't kneel before a football game. Like, what exactly is acceptable in this world? And, Joseph, I want to ask you. And what are the-- what are the guardrails to protect. us against this consolidation? There is an unprecedented consolidation. of tech power and government authority, and Congress is absent. And even if they weren't absent, they're so fucking overmatched.

JOSEPH COX: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, frankly, things do not look good. You know, Democratic lawmakers have tried to introduce. some sort of guardrails on ICE's facial recognition app, saying, hey, you can't roll out to local cops, which is what. they wanted to do, as well. All of those sheriff departments and those. sheriffs you were talking about, they would potentially have ICE's. facial recognition app on their phone, as well, so they could use it. You know, Democratic lawmakers are trying to rein that in.

I don't-- [CHUCKLES] frankly, I don't see that happening. Obviously, it's a group of six against however many. And then even going back a couple of years, ICE was told, hey, you're using some of this location data illegally. They basically said, we don't care, and we're going to keep doing it. So even when there is internal oversight, you know, from inspector of--. the oversight bodies inside DHS and that sort of thing,

it doesn't really mean anything. And that was when things were better a few years ago. So I have very little hope for them. [MUSIC PLAYS]. JON STEWART: So, folks, I'm one of those people who are very. annoying, who are always saying things. like, oh, I got this idea. I got a business idea. And I actually do have a business idea. It's actually for-- you know how-- do you have a dog? You know how, like, when you throw your coat on the floor. when you come into the house and then all of a sudden. you look-- turn over and your dogs are sitting on it. because they love topography? They don't just love a mat. They like a little topography.

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Crumple's the future. So in 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $1-per-month trial and start selling. today at shopify.com/tws. Go to shopify.com/tws. That's shopify.com/tws. Hear your first--. [COIN CLINKS]. --this new year with Shopify by your side. [MUSIC PLAYS]. Has Europe been more successful? I mean, I'm watching right now. In the Iranian revolution, they've gotten so much better.

at shutting off the internet, using the technological tools. against people. Is-- is Europe finding a way to be more proactive at--. at regulating these abuses? JOSEPH COX: Yeah, and not to get, like, too jargony, but it really just comes down to--. JON STEWART: Jargon it up, baby! Let's go! JOSEPH COX: It really just frankly comes down to, there is no federal privacy law in the United States.

California has their thing. Illinois has a biometrics facial recognition one. There's no overarching law in the US. that could help with this. In Europe, you have GDPR, the General Data Protection. Regulation, which stops that melding of private companies. and states in such a way where they're. just feeding off one another. Of course, surveillance still happens in the EU, but not to the extent where, 'I'm Germany, let me go buy all. of the data on my citizens.'. Whereas that's just-- that's the norm now in the US.

because you don't have that foundational guardrail, which then everything would spiral out from that. We don't even have that. JON STEWART: Which is so fucking mind-blowing. because you think about, what is their general raison d'etre, which is, we have to get the elites from being. able to run our lives. And by "elites," they mean sociology. professors or whatever it is. But the actual elites are allowed to run amok. Radley, is there any-- is there any recourse.

to what we're talking about? Because this is-- I can't think of anything that's. more elitist than the trillionaire, you know, tech class joining forces with a president that. is granted total immunity from the-- by the Supreme Court, and them joining forces to do whatever they want. RADLEY BALKO: Yeah, I think your question is about reforms. And I'll let Joseph talk about the tech reforms. because that's a little outside my wheelhouse.

But in terms of police accountability, there are some very basic things, I think, that we could do, you know, assuming the Democrats take. control of the House and the Congress, possibly the White House. I mean, currently, right now, there is no real way. to sue a federal law enforcement officer if they. violate your constitutional rights, whether they kill you, whether they beat you, whether they racial profile you. JON STEWART: Do they have absolute immunity? That's what-- what JD Vance was saying, is they have absolute immunity. RADLEY BALKO: So Vance is wrong.

They don't have absolute immunity from criminal charges. So they can still be charged both. federally and locally and--. with crimes. But in terms of civil liability--. so if you sue a state police officer for violating. your rights-- let's say they beat. you or killed your relative unjustly, you can sue. You can file a federal lawsuit under the Ku Klux Klan Act, called a Section 1983 suit. But they have qualified immunity, which is hard to get by. But you can-- it can be surmounted. If it's a federal officer, you can't even--.

they have absolute immunity. So it's-- it's another layer of protection. It's-- it's almost impossible to sue them in federal court. And Congress could change that tomorrow. They could pass a bill tomorrow saying, we're going to give federal police. officers the same qualified immunity that state officers. have, which is still pretty significant, but we're not going to make them. completely and utterly above the law, which is insane. JON STEWART: So, Radley, are they. using ICE to get around that even qualified immunity? Are they-- is that what they're doing?

Are they circumventing so that they aren't going to be liable? RADLEY BALKO: Yeah, they're not. That's what Stephen Miller-- when he goes on and says you. have absolute immunity, what he's saying is nobody can. sue you in federal court for--. civilly-- for damages. We're not going to charge you criminally in federal court. because we support what you're doing. So it's not going to happen at the federal level. The best that you can hope for is maybe a state. prosecutor or an attorney general. could criminally charge these people.

But those cases are going to get removed to federal court. And then the DOJ is probably going. to be defending those people against local prosecutors. And so in terms of accountability, the only real thing that's left at this point. is shaming and social stigma. Well, why do you think they're all wearing masks now? Because that takes away that last vector. of-- of accountability that we have. But the thing is--. I guess what I'm saying-- the hopeful. part of this is Congress could change all this tomorrow. They could pass a law tomorrow saying, here's a way that you could sue federal officers. for civil rights violations.

They're going to get qualified immunity, which is still great, but not absolute immunity. And that would be, I think, a really important step forward. JON STEWART: And, Joseph, that's still. the ICE agent on the street. The-- the perp that they're going after, the innocent person that they end up targeting, that's still a kind of old-fashioned, analog. interaction, human to human, face to face. Where can there be accountability in a world. where we're not even sure-- when. you're in the tech world, A, those guys.

aren't elected in any way? So there's no recourse there. And, B, it's not really a consumer-facing business. It's a government-facing business. So we don't even have consumer power. There is no Bud Light boycott of Palantir. I wouldn't have any fucking idea where they get their-- you. know, Tesla can go again. But as long as Elon knows he's got a trillion dollars coming. in for SpaceX, like, where--.

what are the incentives? How do we, in any way, push back. on this dystopian new reality? JOSEPH COX: Yeah, I have seen it. when I'll post one of my Palantir articles, and somebody will reply on social media, it's time. to boycott Palantir. And I'm just shaking my head, like, what are you--. what are you talking about? That's not how this works. JON STEWART: 'I'm not going to their store ever again.'. [LAUGHTER]. JOSEPH COX: I think they're confusing. it with Peloton or something like that probably. [LAUGHTER]. RADLEY BALKO: 'I'm going to burn my exercise bike.'. [LAUGHTER]. JOSEPH COX: But I mean, obviously,

to get to your question, there isn't much an ordinary person. can do. And I'll just say, as a journalist, it is really, really hard. It is now months and months and months. into the mass deportation campaign. And only now are we finally figuring out, oh, that's actually what Palantir is building. It's the little map to find immigration targets, which, of course, we could have assumed. But now we only really know. It's really hard to even get an idea of what is going on. And of course, these companies like that, obviously. And even, of course, they're not really.

accountable to the public. They're barely accountable to their own employees. JON STEWART: Certainly not their shareholders, yeah. JOSEPH COX: Right. When you have Palantir workers saying, hey, we don't like this, and they're saying this internally. in Slack-- we reported that. And, well, I just did another one recently, as well. They continue to defend the work. Like, it would require, like, a tectonic shift. inside the company to make any sort of change. because, frankly, they are making bank on this. It's tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars. Palantir's stock is, you know, performing exceptionally well.

I don't see any incentive for-- not even just the Palantirs, but even the Metas and the Zuckerbergs, as well, I. don't see any incentive from them to disalign themselves. with this administration. Hey, if there's another administration--. "if there's another administration in the. future," maybe--. JON STEWART: "If there is"-- oh, that's dark. JOSEPH COX: Sorry. Maybe--. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. JOSEPH COX: --those tech companies will then flip again. And of course, they'll expect us to just forget. everything that they just did during the second.

Trump administration. But of course, they flip flop. JON STEWART: You know, these new tools--. and I don't know this to be a fact, but my feeling is these are more explicitly overt. political actors than even what you would consider. defense contractors who would send lobbyists to Capitol Hill. But they don't really give a shit who you are. They just know, I want more unaccountable money. I don't want to pass an audit. I just want you to keep feeding the. military industrial complex. This is a new kind of appendage of.

that military industrial complex that feels. much more overtly ideological. JOSEPH COX: Oh, yeah, 100%. Like, gone are the days with, as you allude to, Lockheed Martin--. Lockheed Martin just doing their thing or whatever. JON STEWART: 'Come to a party. We have shrimp.'. JOSEPH COX: [CHUCKLES] We just sell the weapons, whatever. Now you have these very charismatic founders. and owners. There's Palmer Luckey of Anduril, which provides.

AI-enabled towers for the US, Mexico, and the Canadian border. He's very obviously coming out, 'We need. to defend the Homeland.'. Of course, you have Karp from Palantir, as well, saying we need to defend the West. And Karp, actually, constantly beefs with Silicon Valley, saying, 'you guys have just made, like, food delivery apps for years. We're actually trying to make a difference.'. It's completely explicit now. Like, it's not even a subtext. They have-- I mean, there were adverts on bus stops,

I think, throughout the United States for Palantir, trying to get more people to come join the company, saying, come and do something that actually matters. It's completely front and center from these people. It is an ideological business. It is not just making money for these people. JON STEWART: Right. RADLEY BALKO: Like, we never would. have seen the CEO of Raytheon, you know, giving lectures. about the Antichrist, right? I mean, this is--. I think you're right, like, this is an entirely different--. JON STEWART: But could it be Greta Thunberg? I mean, let's be honest. You know what was interesting about it. to me is the guy-- the guy giving the lecture about how.

Greta Thunberg might be the Antichrist--. and we're talking about Peter Thiel, like, is this powerful, not-transparent billionaire. who runs these tech companies. And you're like, if I'm making a movie about the Antichrist, not to be Joe Central casting, but I. think I'm going to go with the powerful billionaire. guy as Antichrist, not the girl on a flotilla. Doesn't-- doesn't feel as anti--.

Antichrist-esque. We're only a year into this. Radley, what-- I mean, in terms of--. like, I just can't imagine how much further-- you know, the one thing that I think has been demonstrated. here is that this is an alien format to a lot of Americans. And what you're seeing in Minneapolis and the people--. and these are just--. I know that the big word on the right. is 'these are paid agitators.'. They're fucking regular people with whistles.

That's their technology, out on the streets. And, yes, maybe they organize on social media. like most Facebook groups do, or Signal chats. or whatever it is. But these are not--. that's-- that's a lie. RADLEY BALKO: Well, I would-- yeah, this is my-- my optimistic take, I guess, which is that I've been doing a lot. of reporting on immigration.

That's not something I reported on a lot in my career. But that's required me to, kind of, bone up. But it's also required me to watch. a lot of these really horrific videos and-- that we've seen. And I've taken in a lot of them. And it can be a little overwhelming sometimes--. nothing compared to what the people. are actually going through. But I will say that the thing that has just really inspired. and invigorated me is exactly what you're talking about, which is--. I first saw it in Chicago because that. was where I first started covering this in depth. And going into the Facebook pages of these whistle brigades.

and these groups and seeing people that I went to college. with who have never been political in their lives, who. are now, you know, setting up online data spreadsheets. for who's going to go to the local school. to chaperone immigrant kids back home so. don't get arrested, who's going to do the laundry. for these immigrant groups who are afraid to leave. their homes, who's going to, like, get groceries for them--. there were spreadsheets about where people were writing down. when ICE was at Home Depot so immigrants who make.

their living in construction could. go get supplies without having to worry about being arrested. I mean, I found it--. I mean, in Minneapolis, you had 50,000 to 100,000 people come. out in zero-degree weather, right, because they were angry about what ICE was doing. to their communities and what they. was doing to their neighbors. I mean, this is--. it's-- all the major elite institutions. have just completely buckled. And it's been really disillusioning, overwhelming,

disheartening to watch. But, man, on the flip side of that, watching people stand up, just individual, regular people putting their bodies. on the line, putting their-- just. defending their neighborhoods and their neighbors, you know? And it's been inspiring. And it works, right? I mean, look at what happened to Bovino, you know? Like, it works. JON STEWART: But he's a cartoon character. And, you know, getting rid of Bovino reminds me of bombing. a Venezuelan drug boat, where you're like, OK,

you've sacrificed a low-level nonentity. One thing I'll say about-- and I'll. ask your guys' opinion of it. I generally think-- and I'm not talking. about in the Nazi sense of, we're just following orders. But generally, law enforcement follows. the will of the communities. Like, the police go to places as a quarantine. to keep bad things away from the richer people, generally. And the abuses that go on there people don't want to see.

and they don't want to know about. But the police themselves are not there to abuse. They're there to just try and do. the job that people have said. To get rid of Bovino is to suggest that the architect. of this, Stephen Miller, the executor of this, Donald Trump, are somehow have been hoodwinked. by an overly aggressive force that has bungled. what is a righteous job. And I just don't think that's--.

that's the case. They have been given a quota to get rid. of people in communities that are part of the fabric. of the community. Nobody's out in the streets trying to make sure that you. can't find the rapists. That's just not true. They're just trying to say, I'm sorry, man, I know this person as a human. They work hard. They're just trying to do what they do. Treat it as a civil matter, not a criminal matter, not a military matter. That's what it-- that's what it feels like to me. JOSEPH COX: It's funny because ICE.

has just cycled through all of these leadership. changes, right? I can't remember how many there were, but there were, like, several where, we'll kick out this guy because he's not bringing in enough. Then we'll bring in somebody else. And that person's out. And then operations are moved, as you say, to Border Patrol. And now he's out, as well. And of course, the Trump administration. is distancing itself from it, like, oh, no, no, we didn't want to do that. It's like, you're orchestrating this. Obviously you wanted to do that. So I mean, we'll see what happens now. But they are, it seems, quite desperately. cycling through these leadership positions.

JON STEWART: And the system right. now is incentivized to abuse. JOSEPH COX: Right, to get these numbers. JON STEWART: When you put a quota on human beings. and you say, hit these numbers, you've. just incentivized to abuse Radley, I know that probably not--. that whole little speech might not have hit you exactly right. But go ahead. RADLEY BALKO: No, no, I think--. look, I think you're exactly right about the system. I also think you're exactly right that-- that this is, on some level, you have a president who's called--.

literally called immigrants-- said immigrants. poison the blood of the country, who calls people. out exercising their rights domestic terrorists, and then who sends these-- these officers who have been. recruited with white nationalist propaganda. out into these communities and tells them. that they have complete immunity for anything they do. I mean, that's a recipe for violence. We shouldn't be surprised by what we're seeing. However, I guess the point that I was trying to get at. is that I do think that people making themselves heard. is working. JON STEWART: Agreed.

RADLEY BALKO: It is forcing Trump to backtrack. from his defense of Alex--. JON STEWART: Pretti. RADLEY BALKO: --Pretti, yes. It's forcing them to backtrack from that. And it's also-- look at polling. I mean, Trump had a healthy majority. I think he was plus 10 on immigration policy. when he took office. I think he's at, like, minus 15, minus 20 now, right? These aren't sustainable numbers. They're going to continue to do it for as long. as they can get away with it. But I think it's encouraging and inspiring the way people. are making their voices heard, the way they're doing it. even after they've been explicitly threatened. They're still out there tracking ICE agents.

They're still out there recording. them on their cell phones. And to me, that-- that is far--. I take such heart in that after watching. all these lead institutions crumble in front of Trump. JON STEWART: It's remarkable. And it's-- the tough thing for me is that public opinion only. begins to move when we have explicit, not very nuanced evidence to the contrary. of-- of what they're saying. And it does-- it really does make you wonder, like, if they'll lie that clearly to us. when we're presented with very clear evidence to the counter,

what are they lying about when we don't have. the counter evidence and when public opinion. can't be swayed because we haven't seen it as explicitly? And that's-- that's the tough part. Joseph, you know, as we wrap up, I think what Radley said is exactly. right in terms of how we can be heartened by the people. In terms of the tech piece of it,

the one thing that I think maybe. could provide some optimism is what technology can create, technology can-- nothing can fight AI like AI. And surely, there must be people working--. and you know what? And join me. We'll form a company, but to create AI to counter AI, algorithms to counter algorithms, information. to counter misinformation. If you can engineer it, you can reverse-engineer it.

And we have to form companies whose sole purpose is. to design and utilize a technology to unravel. nefarious technology. No? JOSEPH COX: Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of people. who are either in government and they. were laid off in these massive layoffs via DOGE. And now they're doing investigations. into data brokers and that sort of thing. And then they send me information.

There's, of course, people inside these companies, as well, who say, you know what, 'I actually don't agree with what our firm is doing. And I'm going to push back against it.'. And then I do think, most importantly, throwing back. to it's the technology that every single person has, which is their mobile phone, this is a phenomenal tool. And, you know, we used to have to rely on maybe The New York. Times verifying something or Bellingcat, which does a lot of open-source sort. of verification stuff, when we see. the videos of the shooting--.

the shootings, sorry-- you don't need that. You can just believe your eyes, despite what DHS is. telling you to do otherwise. And that continues to be exceptionally powerful. JON STEWART: Yeah, we were saying that, that Pretti actually was armed with perhaps the most dangerous. weapon to a regime built on lies, which is something. that can capture the truth. And I really appreciate you guys helping. to set the parameters of-- of what this moment is.

and how dangerous it is and where we can go in it. Any-- any last thoughts from you, Joseph, on-- on where this military, industrial, and now. tech complex may be headed? And then, Radley, on-- on other things. that people can do to stand up to that. So, Joseph. JOSEPH COX: I would just say that the marriage between tech. companies and states, I think, is going to become maybe not.

a norm, maybe that's too strong, but it's just going to become tolerated. by the technology industry. You even have Mark Zuckerberg, obviously CEO of Meta, welcoming back Palmer Luckey, who makes all of these AI. towers for Customs and Border Protection, welcoming him-- welcoming him back. in to now work on some sort of military product, as well. Now, these agencies want technology. Again, usually they went to the Raytheon's of the world, that sort of thing. It's now Silicon Valley. And, like, I don't think that's going.

to go backwards anytime soon. If anything, I think these tech companies are probably. going to think, well, we have several more. years of this at least. Like, why don't we lean into this? And I just think it's going to get way more aggressive. JON STEWART: And it's almost a money laundering scheme. You know, they're getting billions of dollars. from the government. And then they're turning around, like Elon Musk, and pouring hundreds of millions. into elections to get these same people elected. And it really is--. it looks like a corrupt money laundering scheme.

JOSEPH COX: Yes, to solidify power. And I mean, that's an obvious point. The-- the gloves are off for these people, where they can absolutely do that sort of thing. They've never had such a strong hand. inside the levers of government as they-- as they do today. I mean, it's amazing for them, of course. JON STEWART: Right. Radley? RADLEY BALKO: I would just, you know, encourage people to continue speaking out. for your neighbors, for the people around you, for your communities, and keep recording.

You know, very early on, when they started sending troops. into Los Angeles and DC, I was so heartened because you would. see these videos of these immigration officers, you know, roughing someone up. And obviously, that's very disturbing. But you'd see four, five, six people. in-- in the video that was uploaded also recording. video on their phones. And that is, as you said, I think, a lot. more powerful than-- than weapons at this point. because that's the kind of accountability--. that's the only thing that's going to keep them accountable. JON STEWART: That's-- that's right.

Well, guys, I so appreciate you taking the time. Joseph Cox, co-founder of 404 Media, host of the 404 Media podcast, and Radley Balko, an investigative journalist who's been on this beat. for a very long time, author of the book. Rise of the Warrior Cop--. Militarization of America's Police. Forces and the publisher of The Watch, a Substack newsletter. Guys, thank you very much. JOSEPH COX: Thank you so much. RADLEY BALKO: Thanks. [MUSIC PLAYS]. JON STEWART: Guys, my takeaway from the entire conversation, if I may, is that Peloton is about to get hit--.

[LAUGHTER]. --by a very angry, yet somewhat misguided, boycott. [LAUGHTER]. LAUREN WALKER: Peloton catching strays. JON STEWART: I didn't realize-- you know, I actually found. that conversation, like, very clarifying, laying out actually just how the tentacles between big tech. and the sort of marriage with them and an authoritarian state. and, like, how it filters down into the militarization. of this kind of enforcement. I-- it seems, I thought, incompetent but purposeful.

LAUREN WALKER: Yeah, I was kind of counting on them. being incompetent, and now--. [LAUGHS] --I'm left with nothing. WOMAN: Well, it feels like a continuation of processes that. were already in place of this circulation of-- of tools. and tactics that, I mean, we've talked about before, we're born out of wars and ultimately trickle back. And they started talking about that a little bit, which I found really interesting. JON STEWART: It does remind me a little bit of the times of,

you know, when you think about tech titans and the marriage. of politics, and you do think back a little bit to, like, Ford and the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. and how he really also had these very similar. blood-and-soil kinds of leanings. and was also at the forefront of creating really, like, the modern proletariat in America. and how that all infused into it. because we're not used to business leaders.

being this vocal. I mean, I don't know if you see on social media, but these guys are-- like, Elon Musk, you can't go 30 seconds without him throwing. a couple of, like, eyeball emojis on a story. about white victimhood. Like, it's pretty wild. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: He's, unquote, "looking into a lot. of things" on Twitter. JON STEWART: Right, or just throwing up, like, "exactly true" on shit where you're like, eh, I don't think that's--. and it's always in one direction, by the way.

He's not bringing up, like, a variety of crimes. LAUREN WALKER: No, of course not. JON STEWART: He's pretty single minded. LAUREN WALKER: And for Elon, you would think, like, that sort of-- those, like, vocal white supremacy. statements would be, like, at odds with his business. because, you know, you theoretically. want a consumer base. But luckily for these Palantir guys, it's-- it's right in line. with their business interests. They don't even have to go out of their way. JON STEWART: No, they're unaccountable to politics.

They're unaccountable to consumers. They're only accountable to their own sort. of weird utopian fantasies, which feels. dystopian to everybody else. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes. JON STEWART: But I do agree-- like, I. don't know how you guys feel in terms of the optimism of it. But I do think it's still-- this is alien. And-- and I do think, in the same way. that it's hard to do a national strike in America because. of federalism and there's 50 states. and there's all kinds of different rules,

it's also very hard to do, like, proper fascism in America. for the very same reasons. Like, we're not an easy place to control. And-- LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. Look, Greg Bovino, he got run out of Minneapolis. by moms with whistles. And I hope that keeps him up at night. JON STEWART: Well, if that haircut doesn't keep him. up at night, I don't think--. I don't think a whole lot else is there. LAUREN WALKER: I wouldn't say that the Congress stepping. up part gives me optimism. The people stepping up to protect each other. does, and also these fractures, which you touched. upon, in the Republican Party.

And I was going to say, even Fox News seems. to have some fractures in the sense. that the main page is very much what you would. expect coverage to be of this. But then individual reporters are really. getting into the truth of it. And I saw one of their congressional reporters. was talking about DHS's response internally. And one person said, 'it's a case study. on how not to do crisis PR. DHS is wrong. We are losing this war. We're losing the base in the narrative.'. JON STEWART: See, I--.

I still feel like they view it, though, as a PR war. and not as a function of government. overreach or authoritarianism or overly militarized. Like, I think it's like, fuck, that video is just so clear, we just-- we-- even we, even the experts in spin, even the high priests of no-principled, we're just going to buckle down and get our talking.

points out there, even they go like, I can't polish this turd. I just can't. And so they say, well, and then the tragedy here. is we're losing the PR war. And I really think that's the extent of it for them. LAUREN WALKER: I won't be optimistic about it then. But it did seem--. [LAUGHTER]. It did seem like a step in the right direction. JON STEWART: I don't want to yuck your yum! No, I get it. But I, like-- I just feel like even they-- like, they've just been handed an assignment that they can't.

complete, and they'll go right back. to completing the assignment as soon as the smoke clears. LAUREN WALKER: They have their new leader. JON STEWART: Right. That's-- that's exactly right. And they'll pretend that getting rid of Bovino did it. And Stephen Miller will still sit back. and sup on the rotting flesh of whatever. it is he's trying to do to this country, unfortunately. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: That little troll. JON STEWART: Man, motherfucker. Brittany, what do the people want to know this week? What do they want to know? I'm happy to-- I'm happy to help. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Good.

"Jon, do you think Bari Weiss will fix CBS News and finally. make it fair and balanced?". JON STEWART: Oh, there's no question. that she is on her way--. You know, look, the difficulty with all this, everybody's like, Bari Weiss is going to ruin CBS News, like, I don't know about you, but, like, did you watch CBS News? I'm-- like, I didn't. I mean, 60 Minutes is a great show. I hope she doesn't fuck up 60 Minutes. But, like, are we all really like, we need you on that wall to fix network news? Like, network news is-- is a relic.

Like, I just don't think it's even a-- a relevant addition. to the information biome. What do you guys think? LAUREN WALKER: I look forward to Whiskey. Fridays with Tony Dokoupil. [LAUGHTER]. I was already doing Whiskey Fridays, so join me, Tony. JON STEWART: I just think it was one of those things where, like, how dare you ruin-- now, if you're talking. about The Morning Show and-- and 60 minutes, I think those are still viable cultural forces and can be.

And I don't know what she's going to do with them. But, you know-- and also the idea that making something fair. means making sure that MAGA has a voice, like, that, to me, it's just the mistake of not understanding. what the problem with news is. The problem with news isn't there's. not enough Republican or conservative voices. The problem is it's not focused just on corruption. It's focused on-- on the binary of left and right.

Like, who gives a fuck? Do corruption versus integrity. No? Wouldn't that fix it? LAUREN WALKER: But where will they find the corruption? I--. JON STEWART: They'll find it at 60 Minutes. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh, yeah. JON STEWART: She's-- she's looked in there, and she's decided. That-- that's exactly right. What else we got, Brittany? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Jon, "At what point. does a billionaire become a supervillain? Asking for a friend.". JON STEWART: Oh, man. I think it's when they mistake their ability. to make money for their ability to design the world.

And it's the kind of hubris that-- that, where even. Icarus is like, mm, too high. Like, every one of these fucking guys--. what's so interesting to me is how bored. they are with everything. They all want to go somewhere else. They want to go to Mars. They want you to live in the metaverse. You know, you guys have-- this world. is being experienced by these billionaires.

at its highest level. Like, this is as good as you can do. And they're not satisfied with it. They're-- in their mind, it--. it's that weird instinct of, I will. be the one to reverse-engineer the human condition. Like, I will be the one to break the bounds. Like, I want to go up to every fucking one of them. and just whisper in their ear, death will be victorious. [LAUGHTER]. Like, it's-- it's such hubris.

And I think it's when that hubris takes over. and you are surrounded by people who are just. like, that's a great idea--. and, I mean, you look at the folly. Like, it's wild. LAUREN WALKER: Go the fuck to Mars. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: And stay there. JON STEWART: Do you want to say, like, go. Leave already. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Go. JON STEWART: Let us deal-- if you're bored here, knock yourself out. But, no, they have to stay because we all have it wrong.

And they're the only ones who are qualified to redesign. the human condition. Lauren, do you think-- when do you-- or is it just--. is it when they get vested with their stock options, is when they become super villains. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah, I'm not sure I believe. being a billionaire is completely ethical, considering what that money could help. Maybe if you made a billion dollars off selling your Beanie. Baby collection or something. But that's not really where this is going. JON STEWART: I always feel like that's a failure of society,

not that-- like, we're all sort of greedy in our own way, and it's a society, in the same way where they're like-- there. used to be a thing when people who were against the death. penalty, they would come out and say, what would you do if one of your relatives was killed? And you're like, I would go over there. and cut the person open and eat their heart in front of them. while they were alive. And you're like, but that's why we live in a society. We live in a society because not. every human impulse is necessarily. the right or stable one.

And we have to create some ground rules. So if we create a society where people can accumulate that kind. of money, we also have to create a society where. that money-- also, we have to figure out how you redistribute. some of it to create stability and prosperity. that's sustainable. Brittany, what else we got? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Last one. JON STEWART: Yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: No question. JON STEWART: Oh. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: But, "thank you.". JON STEWART: Thank you.

Wait, what? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: That's it. JON STEWART: They just wrote "Thank you"? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah, no question, but "thank you.". LAUREN WALKER: More of a comment. JON STEWART: I wonder if we sent them something. [LAUGHTER]. Did they say what it was-- maybe. it's one of those things--. wait, was this-- did I go to their wedding? Did I give them something? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: No, you don't leave the house. JON STEWART: That's lovely. Here's how-- can I tell you, here's. how I know how fucked up things are right now. 15 years ago, 20 years ago, as bad as it was,

people on the street would recognize. me and be like, hey, hey, hey. Funny show the other night. Oh, that fucking-- I loved that Bush impression. Funny. And now people see me on the street. They just do this. (WHISPERS) Hey. Thank you. They, like-- they, like, whisper, like, (WHISPERS). Keep doing what you're doing. We need-- thank you for your courage. And I'm like, it's really the same show. Same shit. But it's very lovely. Brittany, how can they keep in touch with us?

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Twitter, we are @WeeklyShowPod. Instagram, Threads, TikTok, Blue Sky, @WeeklyShowPodcast. And you can like, subscribe, and comment. on our YouTube channel, "The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart.". JON STEWART: Boom! All right, kids, as always, want to give big thanks. to our lead producer, Lauren Walker, producer Brittany. Mehmedovic, producer Gillian Spear, video editor. and engineer, Rob Vitolo, audio editor and engineer. Nicole Boyce, executive producers. Chris McShane and Caity Gray. We'll see you next week, where hopefully. the world will be healed. All right, bye, bye. [MUSIC PLAYING].

The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount. Audio and Busboy Productions. [MUSIC PLAYING].