Political Conventions: What’s The Point? w/ Jon Stewart, Jill Lepore, and Zolan Kanno-Youngs

JON STEWART: If they did that today, it would be the guy dressed as Elmo. and he would wander in off the street in Times Square. JILL LEPORE: Yes, it would be like Elmo would come in. and say the Cookie Monster gets all the best snacks. JON STEWART: President Eisenhower. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Hello, everybody. Welcome once again to the Weekly Show. My name is Jon Stewart. I will be your host for the next--. it could be 40 minutes. It could be 50 minutes. We don't know the optimum amount of time. for the listener to complete the episode. We are here, as always, with our tremendous producers,

Brittany Mehmedovic, Lauren Walker, and this is Convention Week. We are dominated spiritually, intellectually, emotionally by the Democratic convention and the storylines. coming back. And the storyline appears to be Democrats are taking cocaine, and they are fired up. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Hell yeah. LAUREN WALKER: Lil Jon is there. JON STEWART: Little Jon is there. making the roll call actually interesting,

which never happens. Have you all been watching the coverage of it and the speeches. and locked in? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I'm watching it. Well, I'm balancing Emily in Paris and the DNC right now, so I'm doing clips. JON STEWART: Clips of both? Clips of Emily in Paris, or full episodes. Emily in Paris, clips of the convention? LAUREN WALKER: She's spark noting Emily in Paris. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: Now that is--. I'm gonna be completely honest here,

I don't know what that is. I mean, I know that it's a show, but I don't actually know. I assume it's about. This woman, Emily, and where she lives. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It's Paris. LAUREN WALKER: Paris. JON STEWART: All right. Fair enough. OK. So I nailed it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: You did it. That's all you need to know. LAUREN WALKER: You got the whole gist, honestly. JON STEWART: All right. Which one, at this point, Brittany, has had more drama? Which one has had more intrigue? Which one seems to be hitting its stride? Is it Emily, or is it the Democratic Convention?

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It's the Convention. Honestly. Although Emily is balancing two guys right now, so there's like a scandal happening. But it's the DNC for sure. JON STEWART: That's also, if, I may say so, that's Paris for you. I mean, is there anybody in Paris who. is not juggling some form of sexual liaisons. between different--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: No one that I know. JON STEWART: We're talking on Wednesday, obviously. I thought Monday night was funereal to a certain extent. There was a real--. and maybe it was the expectation. of all the commentators who were like,

it's the sad goodbye. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah, it was definitely. a different vibe on Monday, and I really couldn't stay up. I'm really impressed that everyone else did, but. JON STEWART: Can I tell you the sad truth, Lauren? LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. JON STEWART: I went to bed before Biden. LAUREN WALKER: That's what I'm saying. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: That upset me. LAUREN WALKER: I went to bed before Biden. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. JON STEWART: That is how I judge my life now. Do I think I'm going to bed before or after Biden? We are gonna do--. we've got a great Convention show for you.

with history, journalism. We're gonna get to it. But before we do, I need to take care of a small little bit. of business. This is our last show for the next couple weeks. It's our summer break. We're gone for two weeks. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Vacay. JON STEWART: Vacay. Brittany is going to be Brittany in Paris. She is gonna go and she's gonna juggle three to four paramours. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Obviously. JON STEWART: Obviously. And then we come back?

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Friday the 13th. LAUREN WALKER: Spooky scary. JON STEWART: That's not good. But all right. Let's do it that way anyway. And as always, at the end of the program, we will be taking your comments and answering. those to the best of our ability, so please keep those coming. But let's get to the convention coverage, for God's sakes. I'll see you guys in a little bit. Joining us for our mega Convention discussion, Zolan.

Kanno-Youngs, White House correspondent with the New York. Times and a CNN political analyst, and Jill Lepore, Professor of History and Law at Harvard. The university. the one you've heard about. That Harvard. A staff writer at The New Yorker. Yeah, the New Yorker. Jill is crushing it. An author of a bunch of books, including. most recently, The Deadline. Zolan, I'm gonna start with you. You are in Chicago right now. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Yes.

JON STEWART: Obviously these are generally infomercial-ish, but the energy from the Democratic Party. seems to be vibrating off the screen. I don't know what it's feel like in Chicago, but it has that feeling of a prisoner on death row. who was dead man walking, who was heading down. that Green Mile, whatever analogy, and the governor. calls at the last minute and there is a joy and a relief.

that seems palpable. Zolan, is that what you're sensing on the ground there? ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I've been covering the White House now since President. Biden came into office, and that required. going to a lot of his events. And when you compare crowd sizes and just the energy, this is the most energetic that I've.

seen the party in this Biden era, particularly--. I mean, Monday, Monday was interesting. because it wasn't, I would think, the usual sort. of vibe of a convention. It wasn't as celebratory or forward looking. It was almost more of a swan song. It was more of a bidding farewell to the president. JON STEWART: Yes. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: But then yesterday, right, you have the Obamas there. And I was in the stadium when Michelle Obama took the stage,

the former First Lady. JON STEWART: Boy, are they a talented couple of orators. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: I thought President Obama got it right. when he said something along the lines of, who goes after Michelle Obama? JON STEWART: I got to tell ya. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Who makes that decision? Most people that I talked to, voters, were saying she was. the highlight of the night. And I mean, it was hard to hear at times the speakers as well. JON STEWART: Because the crowd was just-- they were bonkers. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Going nuts. Going nuts. And it's actually one of the main questions I have now.

moving forward is, is this excitement sort of exclusively. tied to the candidate of Vice President Harris, or is it exclusively about the change? Is it about something new? The switch on the ballot? JON STEWART: Sure. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Because, look, the thing that I would hear for the past three years. from voters was sort of that lack of faith in the system. because the two candidates quite literally represented. something that just happened. It represented the past. JON STEWART: 78 years old and 82 years old. I mean--.

ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: That's right. And now you're seeing a sense of optimism, not just. around a candidate that may represent something different, but also a candidate that they feel. can effectively deliver some lines. against the former president and actually. have a chance to beat him. JON STEWART: Right. And we'll get to this with Jill. Any time you're watching a television program. and there's a plot twist, one that you. didn't see coming, certain plot twists, a little negative. You talk about "Red Wedding.". You're watching Game of Thrones and all of a sudden, everybody's killed there. But then there's other plot twists where you're just like,

oh my God. They had a baby? There's that excitement. And Jill, let's get to you, because I think you have a much. broader overview of this. These are now television shows. These are no longer political conventions. And I'd love for you to give us a little bit of a sense. of how this thing has evolved. Political conventions were weeks long. They were more like, when you think of conventions. in a political sense, the Constitutional Convention,

a gathering of the leaders and the elites, for however negative or positive. you wanna view that, who are going to sit. and they're going to grind the philosophy. of our governing principles as we are going forward. And now, over those years, it's evolved into the kind. of convention, like a timeshare convention, like a gathering of people who sell Lipitor, and they're just there to celebrate the product that they. have had developed, and they are going to shout and hold. signs and wear funny hats.

And they're not actually gonna do anything. other than that spectacle. And is that the transformation that we've seen? JILL LEPORE: Yes. I think the Lipitor convention might have better hats. Now I'm trying to picture that. I just wanna add one thing about this week before kind. of jumping back in time, because one of the things I. think maybe hasn't been talked about as much. with the excitement is that the novelty, is. that the change, as you're asking, Jon, or is it the candidate herself? I think one of the things that's.

important about this Democratic Convention. is it really is a party convention. and not a dynastic activity. JON STEWART: Nice. JILL LEPORE: So if it was a dynasty, it would be Michelle who was the candidate. Right? That's an alternative Democratic reality. Thinking about Hillary Clinton in 2016. Like, she comes on. She's Bill's wife. A very important politician and accomplished person. in many ways, but that was a dynastic anointment in the way. that the Jeb Bush candidacy was meant to be,

a dynastic anointment that same year in 2016. And people were-- it was grim, right? I went to both those conventions in 2016. That was the only times I've ever been. But it was just entirely grim from top. to bottom, both conventions for different reasons. Trump because he toppled the dynasty, Clinton because the Sanders people were like, this is a dynasty. This isn't a party anymore. So what was so, for me, exciting to watch. Michelle Obama last night--. I mean, also, she's just badass. Like, she's so-- she's so great.

But that it's not Joe Biden who selflessly. gave up the presidency. It's Michelle Obama. Like, no, no. It's funny. Like, she could have walked right into that nomination. JON STEWART: She could have. She still could. JILL LEPORE: No one gives her credit for that. Like, the dignity that she talked about when--. she kept talking about the presidency. has a certain amount of dignity to it. JON STEWART: Yeah. JILL LEPORE: That's her. Right? Like, she's the one. People in the party have been dying to get her to run. And she's like, you know what? Not everybody wants power. Like, that's not what I want.

JON STEWART: I think she was also--. you could tell, though, she was wounded by the treatment. that the Obama family--. not just the president, but the entire family. She was really wounded by the, if we're. being honest, disgusting treatment, which. continues to this day, of the Obama family. and just the vile attacks. Like not policy, not anything other than just vile, conspiratorial, personal, disturbing.

And then you have Trump yesterday. I've got a lot of respect for the Obamas. Bullshit. I don't know. That's the same with like, no, abortion. I had nothing to do with this, and it's a great thing. Him saying it doesn't make it true. He was the leader of an absolute torrent. and river of slime. And I imagine for her she thought, we've given our pound of flesh to this endeavor, and I don't want any part of that anymore.

JILL LEPORE: Right. True. But I mean, Hillary Clinton had been. through Whitewater and Monica Lewinsky, and she was like, you know what? I want the power. I want it. I want it. I deserve it. JON STEWART: That's a great point. JILL LEPORE: I'm entitled to this nomination. So I don't know. I just kind of wanna take a moment to say, I just know that that just deserves recognition. And as you say, it was a great television moment. She's an amazing speaker. She's an incredible just to watch. Just like the physical presence. JON STEWART: How about that line,

though, the affirmative action of an inherited wealth? Boy, that might be the line of the convention. JILL LEPORE: But so I didn't mean to skirt. your question, because--. JON STEWART: No, no, no, no, no. This is--. JILL LEPORE: I'm supposed to be talking about history. JON STEWART: But that's fabulous context, Jill, and I thank you for it because I think. that's a really interesting point that I have not heard. talked about, which is, I mean, honestly, if Michelle. Obama had gone out there last night and said, hey, you know what? I know we all settled on Kamala, but I think I'm gonna do this. I do think the crowd might have been like, OK. We're fine with that.

But I did-- to address the idea of how this has developed. over time from how we view a convention, the Constitutional. Convention, as kind of an intellectual and philosophical. exercise, which is what the political conventions, I think, have been, to an infomercial convention of an industry. celebrating its own greatness. How has that happened over time? JILL LEPORE: Yeah. So one thing to remember is conventions. are not constitutional.

They're extra constitutional. They're just an invention of the party system. Also, the party system is not constitutional. That's just an invention of people. who thought it would be a useful way. to organize themselves. JON STEWART: And the founders didn't want it. JILL LEPORE: No. JON STEWART: They thought that the executive. would battle the judicial would battle the congressional. They didn't think there'd be parties in any of this. JILL LEPORE: Yeah. And the party system actually screws up the balance of power. in federalism the way the Constitution has described it. So the conventions, the first convention is 1831, so it is a very ancient thing.

But it was an attempt to deal with the problem. of the electoral college. You could write all of American history. as an attempt to deal with the problem. of the electoral college, which was just, admit it, a mistake. It was a bad idea. It was a bad compromise. It's a crazy way to elect a president. JON STEWART: And all basically done for slavery. Yes? JILL LEPORE: All really done for-- yeah, for slavery. JON STEWART: Because the slave states didn't have. people that counted as people. JILL LEPORE: And in a direct national vote--. JON STEWART: They'd have no power. JILL LEPORE: Right. So they're like, we have this idea. Let's have it be proportionate to our representation.

of Congress where we get the two senators, and so that makes it. And then also we get the 3/5 clause. And so then all the presidents are gonna be from Virginia. Woo-hoo, this is great. So people in the North were like, this is bad. They tried to abolish the electoral college. It requires a constitutional amendment. Still hasn't been done. So they decided, OK, well, we'll. nominate our candidates once they kind of formed parties. We'll have the party caucus in Congress. nominate the candidate. So this was the Legislative Caucus. They would get together in this secret meeting,

like a secret cabal. JON STEWART: The smoke-filled room. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Smoke-filled rooms. JILL LEPORE: Members of Congress would be like, oh, you know who we--. we're gonna nominate Jon Stewart this year. He's gonna be-- JON STEWART: Wait, what? What happened? JILL LEPORE: And then the people wouldn't. even vote for the candidate. The people are voting--. people aren't even voting for the delegates. At the time, the electoral college delegates were elected. by the state legislatures. So the only reason this even worked. was because people weren't used to voting. Like, they were used to having a king,

so anything seemed better than-- they're like, OK. JON STEWART: Everything seemed like a privilege. because they had none. JILL LEPORE: I guess we do vote for our state legislators, and then they vote for these delegates, and the delegates choose a nominee that was. chosen by members of Congress. But that's OK. But then that wasn't OK, right? As the country became democratized--. JON STEWART: That had to go to a vote as well. JILL LEPORE: Yeah. So then there's this kind of big campaign. to get rid of what its enemies call king caucus. because basically it's a vestige of monarchy.

So what are they gonna do? How are the parties gonna decide who the nominee is? They're like, oh, we'll do a convention. Because a convention-- in the 19th century, people had. conventions for everything. You were interested in women's rights, you're interested in temperance, you're interested in anti-slavery, you're interested in a new religion, you're interested in a new speculation in the West. Like, you just have a convention because people--. you're not gonna call someone on the phone. You're not gonna Instagram them. You're gonna have to go somewhere,

get together, sit in a room, get to know one another. JON STEWART: And cut out some time for it. And these conventions were weeks. JILL LEPORE: Weeks. Weeks. JON STEWART: Yes. JILL LEPORE: So for everything. And a political convention came to be how people understood. the sovereignty of the people. Like, it was the visual embodiment of this--. it's not voting. Voting was a whole other crazy story behind voting. But conventions were like, we do. actually decide how we govern.

So there were, like, 200 state constitutional conventions. in the first couple of hundred years of the country, because the states were like, you know what we should do? We should have a convention and rewrite our state constitution. Also, because it's fun. I mean-- JON STEWART: It is fun. You go to happy hour. Zolan was just telling us, it seems very fun. There's musicians there. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Lil Jon was there last night. JON STEWART: Little Jon. JILL LEPORE: Yeah. I think they had some banjos. JON STEWART: Yes. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Yeah. JILL LEPORE: Yeah. JON STEWART: They had a lot of fun. And Zolan, I wanna ask you this because this gets to the idea. that the conventions have in themselves--.

there's not a lot that isn't scripted that goes on there. But what really seems salient here. is the symbiosis between the media machine. and the political machine coming together. for this four-year-- it's the Olympics for the media. political industrial complex. And it seems like this is all thrown for you guys.

It's the Correspondents' Dinner writ-large. in a four-year orgy of celebration of. this symbiotic relationship. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: I get what you're saying there. Yeah. There's a certain sort of mutual benefit, right, by the outlets that are going to be covering this. constantly and obviously the political machine that. wants to have a made for TV spectacle. I mean, look, when it comes to journalism and the news value,

the story of this convention, I think. we were reporting on-- the real reporting was. going on the past two months. Or really the past--. you could go even beyond that. And that's talking to voters and seeing. if they were frustrated with who. was on the top of the ballot. That's trying to dig into President. Biden's low poll numbers. It was trying to figure out, was there infighting. in the Democratic Party? That being said, I also think there's something to this,

because walking in there yesterday, walking. past protesters that are protesting what's happening. in Gaza and being able to talk to those folks. and remind the public, hey, you're still. gonna have-- this party is still. gonna have some issues moving forward in the campaign. Walking inside and getting on record the. values that this party is saying that it's going to stand. for, the policies that it's saying-- there's. not too much policy discussion in this thing,

but hearing what they are emphasizing. The economy, investing in the middle class. Not a lot of talk of foreign policy. Not too much talk of immigration. That's stuff that I'm gonna keep in my mind. and I think we should put out there for readers and viewers. JON STEWART: Sure. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: And then there's that old adage--. and maybe this is a cliche, but of documenting. the first draft of history. I mean, we keep going back to the first lady's speech, but I was talking with some voters after who were saying,

look, we can recall the Obamas always going. high rather than going low. And for them to be there in their seats. as a Black woman, who many find to be a hero, was almost sounding the alarm for what's. to come, potentially, for the vice president, for someone trying to be the first Black woman. and the first Black woman to be president, almost defending her in that way, I think that deserves coverage.

JON STEWART: It absolutely deserves coverage. I guess my question would be, is this the first draft. of history, or does the relationship between the media. and these political parties create a skewed first draft. of history? One is-- obviously the convention is. a strategic placement on what their values are. and what they think they're gonna emphasize. and what they're not going to. And then as you watch, there is more coverage with less news.

than I think I've ever seen. And that's been the progression my whole life. You've watched the coverage increase, the news decrease, and how much of this is the media creating a first draft. of history off of a play that was written. by a political party and feeling the need. to comment in real time? I can't tell you, the conventional wisdom. that comes out of here is not a lot of policy.

Well, who does a lot of policy? ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Sure. JON STEWART: They do a pro forma platform. You saw the Republican convention. They basically took whatever platform they had and Trump. just took words out of it, A, because he's a pamphlet guy, and B, he doesn't wanna be on record with anything real. because he thinks that will open him up to criticism. So I guess my point is, is this the first draft of history. or is this a mask that the media is helping to build? ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: No, I think it's a good question.

I don't think you can look at this convention. sort of in isolation. If we, in our coverage, were sort of covering this. as the entirety of the campaign and everything. that these two candidates represent, then yeah, I mean, that would not be giving our readers. the full story here. But if we also had reporters-- sometimes. when I'm facing these questions, and say we go to a speech and it's a political stump speech.

and you have people saying, hey, are you just following. the rat race, or are you actually following. the issues that matter? I like to say, look, I may be here covering this, talking. to people, talking to voters, talking. to different elected officials, but that doesn't mean that I. wasn't in Chicago a year ago covering lead pipe. removal, President Biden's policy, and trying to dig into the impact of that policy. That doesn't mean we don't have colleagues in DC right now that. are leading investigations into these parties. to actually assess impact.

JON STEWART: In some ways, the difference. between print and television. Print is a really different animal, and it allows you a context and a perspective. that you can't have. But I do wanna ask Jill, is this then Schrodinger's. convention, this idea that television has fundamentally. formed and changed the way these things take place. because they didn't want to be exposed? That television originally-- it goes back to Nixon and Kennedy,

the first televised debate, where Nixon's like, makeup? I don't need makeup. I'll look great. The medium originally exposed politics. Now politics has found a way to expose media. And is that the kind of arc that. has happened over these years, that television has. been the dominant media form? JILL LEPORE: Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I think it is kind of hydraulic in the way. that you describe it, right? It's like an engine that's moving.

There are parts that are moving together. I think it does predate television, though, and it has to do with larger changes in--. maybe I would go to the age of radio in the 1920s, because first of all, you have broadcasting. Second of all, it's the age-- the birth of mass advertising. Modern commercial advertising, where. you begin to see political candidates marketed, hawked directly to voters as political products. The first campaign consulting company is founded in 1933,

California Campaigns, Inc. JON STEWART: Really? JILL LEPORE: Yeah, and it's a former ad company. They're like the Mad Men of the 1930s. JON STEWART: Wow. JILL LEPORE: But you see then that-- so it's 1932. FDR becomes the first nominee to actually. go to the convention. Before that, it would be considered. completely inappropriate for a candidate to go. JON STEWART: Wait. So the candidates wouldn't-- when they got nominated, they wouldn't come on and say, I accept your nomination to--.

JILL LEPORE: No. Also because, Jon, it was a decision. It was actually a deliberative convention where. people were making a decision. And the idea--. JON STEWART: So they wouldn't even know. JILL LEPORE: No. So you wouldn't, like--. you wouldn't go and stump for votes. You would just-- there would be various people. there making deals, swindling. There's a whole lot of shenanigans. and political skullduggery. But it was actually a lot going on. And even the platform, deliberations.

were real deliberations. There was no-- were they reported on? No, because it was actually a working convention. People were getting together who hadn't seen one another. They're not on the phone all the time. They don't share the same national news culture. I'm from Mississippi. Here's how I think the party needs to be moving. You're from Connecticut. You wanna do this. How are we gonna make a deal here? I'll vote for your guy. JON STEWART: Was there an honesty. there that disappeared as soon as people started listening?

JILL LEPORE: I don't think so. No. I think there was a lot of dishonesty. But--. JON STEWART: All right, good. So fundamentally, politics hasn't changed. JILL LEPORE: Yeah, it's just-- like the people that. got to go do that are gonna--. you know those people that wanna sit in that room. and be like, hey, man, I've got a--. JON STEWART: The room where it happens. JILL LEPORE: I got a tariff on your cotton if you--. whatever. Yeah, those people. So they'd be there, but they would do their thing. And the candidates, some of them.

had never even been mentioned before the convention. The dark horse really is a dark horse. JON STEWART: Really? JILL LEPORE: No one's even heard of these people. And there would be these schemes like, oh, they're just great scenes. I think in 1860 when Lincoln became the nominee--. I think Lincoln wasn't voted maybe till the sixth ballot. I can't remember. But what Lincoln supporters did, they printed up fake tickets for admission to the convention. and they gave them out to people who were Lincoln. supporters, and they sent them in like an hour early. before the hall was supposed to even open.

So they filled to the rafters, the place, with Lincoln supporters. So when they got to that ballot when they were gonna. finally nominate Lincoln--. because you have to hold back your dark horse. You don't bring them in. You let everybody waste all their votes. and get all worked up about this person, the other person. that's doomed, doomed, doomed. Then you bring in your guy. And the people were like, Lincoln! Lincoln! Lincoln! I guess he has a lot of support, this Lincoln guy. JON STEWART: Wait, but he's Honest Abe. How could Honest Abe do something like that?

JILL LEPORE: See, that's why you can't go. That's why you can't go, because there's so much, like, sneaky, Machiavellian stuff. going on behind the scenes. You don't go. You just-- you're told the next day you've been nominated. JON STEWART: The cynicism, Jill. JILL LEPORE: I'm so honored and I will--. So FDR, though--. FDR had-- you know, FDR was an awesome radio guy. He's like the Michelle Obama of the radio. So as governor of New York, he had been great on the radio, and he knew he was great on the radio.

And he knew the power of radio. He had a sense of that as a medium that would. transform politics because--. it's said that Reagan would always just skip over Congress. and directly appeal to the people. This was his big maneuver. Well, that was FDR's maneuver. FDR was like, you know what? I got a problem with the Supreme Court. I'm gonna have this difficult Congress. I got all these Southern conservatives. I'm gonna have a big--. I'm gonna go to the people. I'm gonna get my mandate from the people. JON STEWART: In some ways, that's Trump's trick. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Boo.

JON STEWART: That's the magic that keeps him. JILL LEPORE: That was Trump Twitter, 2015 Twitter. JON STEWART: Yeah. It kind of went from radio to Reagan was the master. of television and Trump is the master of that new media, of social media and podcasts and all those things. And it's interesting how different politicians. have found a way to exploit this new way of communicating. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: In terms of new media and how that has. changed how politicians in probably both parties.

value or sort of feel the need to help out traditional media--. I mean, there's a whole lounge for content creators. and influencers at the Democratic National. Convention right now. This White House in particular, I know, feels that they can get their narrative and their story. out through TikTok influencers and Instagram influencers. State of the Union speech. Biden's State of the Union speech, you know he had many influencers at the White House. as well to basically get his message out at that time.

I'm seeing that at this DNC as well. This is almost a next level. No longer just the White House and the political teams. using social media, but actually. bringing in young influencers who, quite frankly, maybe. are not going to be asking the same tough questions. or looking for accountability, but. are getting their message out. That's the latest sort of means. JON STEWART: Two questions. One is, are they paid by the campaigns to do this thing?

And the second question is, have you seen--. any time you introduce a new and powerful medium, as we. talked about that Nixon-Kennedy moment on the debates, there is also always the potential. for, holy shit, you don't know how this works, do you? Like, in that sense of--. I don't know if you remember right after the Super Bowl, President Biden had an opportunity. to do an interview before the Super Bowl that would be seen. by tens of millions of people. It's an incredible opportunity, especially in an election year,

and chose instead to jump on and release a TikTok, where he. was like Grandpa Joe behind the scenes talking. about chocolate chip cookies. And quite frankly, I thought it was disastrous. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: I think many people agreed. with you in the party as well. Let me answer the first one. In terms of getting paid, I do not. believe that the influencers that are working. for the campaign, I believe that's on a volunteer basis. but I don't in the totality. JILL LEPORE: Although at a minimum, they indirectly profit, right? JON STEWART: No question.

That's right. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: I mean, you're getting more followers, you're getting more cloud. You're at the White House. JON STEWART: It's branding. It's branding. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: I mean, some of these TikTokers--. I mean, good for them-- have been. in spaces of the White House that many of us. haven't been in and the press corps. JON STEWART: And do have millions. of followers on both sides. Yeah. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: And by the way, for the White House, for their political strategy, they're thinking, hey, we're struggling with young voters. We're struggling to reach a constituency base. that maybe, frankly, maybe don't read The New York Times.

every day. Right? So I get where they're coming from in terms of PR. and getting their message out. I guess I would hope that there's still. folks in the White House that also realize it's not. just a matter of getting your message out, but also having. some stress tests happening. Yeah, and some tough questioning. JON STEWART: And also, what do they care about politically. and what can you do? It reminds me of when these television debates also started. to get more sophisticated with the 24 hours. and CNN would do the CNN-MTV debate as opposed.

to the CNN-Wall Street Journal debate or the CNN-New. York Times debate. And all the candidates would have to show up in turtlenecks. because you know, man, if you're talking to the kids, they don't wanna see a necktie because you're. the man and the establishment. But if you wear a turtleneck, they'd be like, I like the cut of this guy's jib. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: This is a direct shot, I feel like, at me, who wears turtlenecks at every TV. appearance during the winter. JON STEWART: Never. That is never--. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: And my mom and like aunt are always. texting me saying, wear a tie.

But it's all good. JON STEWART: Not at all. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: We'll see more. high tops than turtlenecks in the future. with political coverage. JILL LEPORE: That's like when JFK didn't wear a hat. at the inauguration and people were like, man, you have to wear the top hat. He was like, no, it's a new day. JON STEWART: It's a new day. The torch has been passed to a new generation. that allow heat to escape through their scalps. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Well, look, I do think you're right, too, that, going back to the Super Bowl interview, I was talking to allies of the president. at the time that were like, hey, if you just simplify this,

the president passed a lot domestically. He did a lot in terms of legislative achievements. Semiconductor investments, the Inflation Reduction Act, investments in climate. But people were not registering it. And I think that's partly because some of these projects. take a while, but it's also the message, and it's the messenger. And that Super Bowl interview, you have the chance. to reach millions of people. I mean, how many people are watching. the Super Bowl at that time? And you could introduce them into some of these things. that you've done.

JON STEWART: In a thoughtful forum. where you can expound on certain things and analyze it. Not a 30-second--. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: I don't know if talking--. if TikTok is the best platform to talk about semiconductor. investment and how investing in semiconductors. will allow you to compete against China moving forward. and establish independence for a future pandemic. when we have supply chain issues. JON STEWART: It's the opposite of a convention. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: It lacks context. JON STEWART: That's right. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: And not everything.

should be in a bit-sized form. That goes for the coverage we do. That goes for social media influencers as well. JILL LEPORE: So there was-- just. to underscore your question about TV, there really was a kind of TikTok moment in 1952, which. was also the last time any convention vote. went to the second ballot. It was the last time there was a decision. made at a convention. JON STEWART: Was this at the Republican, at the Eisenhower convention, or is this. at the Democratic convention? JILL LEPORE: No, this was at the Democratic convention. But the reason '52 is important is it's. the first televised election. It's the first television campaign ads.

and it's the first election night that is on television. '48, they did it on television, but they just. did a visual radio broadcast. JON STEWART: What was the penetration at that point. with television in 1952? JILL LEPORE: By 1952, it's like 80% of Americans have TVs. It's like really overnight. And Eisenhower agrees. This ad company convinces the Eisenhower campaign. to appear in television ads. And he makes this series of ads. You've probably seen them. They're called Eisenhower Answers America.

And so he went to the studio in Times Square. and he just read off cue cards these answers to questions. And then they brought in people who were wandering. around Times Square and had them read cue cards. and ask questions. And they would be like, General Eisenhower, I'm a veteran of the Second World War. and my taxes are too high. And then it would say, Eisenhower Answers--. so these 30-second spots. And they were--. JON STEWART: If they did that today, it would be the guy dressed as Elmo. and he would wander in off the street in Times Square.

JILL LEPORE: Yes. It would be like Elmo would come in and say, the Cookie Monster gets all the best snacks. JON STEWART: President Eisenhower. JILL LEPORE: But it was incredibly effective. But Adlai Stevenson, who was running against him who. was the egghead intellectual. JON STEWART: Little dry. JILL LEPORE: Yeah. He calls him the cornflakes candidate. He tries to say, like, you're the TikTok candidate. Like, what have you done to America? You have reduced political discourse. to 30-second ad spots made by Madison Avenue charlatans. This is no-- so this is when Stevenson starts saying what we.

need to do is have a debate. And it's actually Stevenson who makes. possible presidential debating, which doesn't. then happen until 1960. But it's Stevenson's rejection of the TV ad spot, which is--. he totally loses. And if you've ever seen--. JON STEWART: And he not only loses, loses twice. Doesn't figure it out in '56, either. JILL LEPORE: Jon, you have to watch Stevenson's ad. He makes this ad called The Man from Libertyville. He decides finally-- his campaign is like, dude, Governor, you gotta make a TV ad.

So he makes this ad called The Man from Libertyville. It's unbelievably-- I try to imagine the worst thing you. could do on TikTok that you would try to explain. carbon tax, whatever. So he has-- the cameras come into his study. in his house in Illinois. It's lined with books and he's talking about books. and the importance of books. And then the camera pans back to see the boom and the cameras. and all the cables.

And he says, see, it looks like I'm in your room, in your living room talking to you because I'm on this screen. But in fact, this is all fake, because there are cameras here. and I'm just performing, telling you something. He tries to like, lift--. whatever, crash through the whatever--. JON STEWART: He went meta. He didn't even know what television was, and he went meta. JILL LEPORE: People were like, where's that little Eisenhower. Answers America guy? I liked that guy. Like, it just doesn't-- you can't--. JON STEWART: I don't like the guy who's like, you're all. living in a Potemkin village.

This is a facade. You're all being lied to. JILL LEPORE: You're Truman on The Truman Show. Like it's-- JON STEWART: Oh my God. JILL LEPORE: It's actually very--. I found it very moving. It's very moving that he's like--. JON STEWART: In retrospect. JILL LEPORE: OK, that's fair. JON STEWART: Not in the moment. JILL LEPORE: Not politically. JON STEWART: For God sakes. JILL LEPORE: Not moving the political needle, as we--. JON STEWART: Right. Right. I find this all fascinating. And then-- and I don't know if this is getting to this now, and Zolan, maybe you can talk to this.

The touchstone is 1968 for what these modern conventions. were gonna look like and how they could go awry. Nixon does the law and order convention, and we're gonna get this country back. on the right track. The hippies and the love movement, all that's nonsense. The Democrats go to Chicago, and it's a shit show, and it's being televised. And that becomes the touchstone for what not to do. I can't tell you how many people, when they heard. the Democrats were gonna be in Chicago this year,

were like, oh, that's a great idea. They're gonna be-- you know? How much of that is an overriding principle. of how they've put this thing together on the ground, Zolan? ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: I would say it was actually. more sort of a news story kind of leading up to this of, oh, what might happen? And also, it actually leads to a question. that we've been asking, too, of it seemed like there was more. concern there when it was still a convention that was going. to celebrate a president that has. overseen the policy that many of the protesters.

here are here for. Right? JON STEWART: Right. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: There have been protests outside, but I'll be honest with you--. I mean, maybe it's the police response. There is some distance from the arena. But it has not been--. I had heard comparisons to 1968 and concern. around chaos and different, was this. going to break out into any sort. of violent acts or rioting? It just really hasn't been the case thus far.

JON STEWART: Let me tell you something, I believe much more damaging to the Democrats. than the '68 convention with the riots. was the '96 convention where the Clintons. did the Macarena on stage for the entire convention. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: That video has been. making the rounds around here. JON STEWART: Has it really? ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Throughout. Yes, it has. So when--. JON STEWART: That may be the most damning piece of tape. ever to come out of a--. JILL LEPORE: I blame Eisenhower. JON STEWART: Eisenhower! ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: What an arc from Macarena. and some of the lack of rhythm being. displayed there to yesterday.

JON STEWART: Lil Jon doing that--. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: When you had "Not Like Us". playing when the California delegation was introduced. But no, that video, particularly on Monday. when Hillary Clinton came out to speak, some people around me. were wondering and they were like, they would be so brave if they just put if they. just put the song on right now. JON STEWART: If they just jumped in, did the Macarena, and got the hell out of town. Jill, do you think the convention now--. in terms of the next iteration, it's.

gone from two weeks of real policy grinding. to this four-day spectacle where the networks. have kind of abdicated. They'll do an hour a night. It really is kind of a celebration. of influencers and cable news and their relationship to it. Where do you see the evolution of it going? Does this become a vestigial tail of our political process? JILL LEPORE: I think it really is just a rally. Even just the roll call this year was--.

I mean, it's always--. JON STEWART: Really pro forma. JILL LEPORE: --roll call, but this year. is entirely pro forma. So it's fine. I'm sure for the parties, look, it's. great to get free television for. a week-long political rally. That's really all that it is, and I'm. sure it really energizes people who are there. I do think reporters learn a lot. about the state of the party, and there's. a lot that's good about it. But what is bad about it is the lack of willingness. to trust people to deliberate about their own political fates. and groups together anymore.

So that conventioning is something that has completely. died out of American political practice, and it's a really important Democratic behavior. So, for instance, we have not had a state. constitutional convention since 1986, because there are. a lot of states that have regular-- every 10 years, or sometimes it's 15, the state has to-- people. have to vote on a referendum. Do you wanna have a constitutional convention? And people just keep voting no because they. don't trust one another. So the reason that we don't have deliberation.

at the conventions anymore is because the party doesn't. trust the delegates to decide. The primary is gonna be informed. by funding and polling and modern political corruption. Honestly. The conventions can't be controlled. It's an uncontrollable situation. That's what '68 sort of revealed. So like, all right, so we can't control it. Let's just make it a media spectacle. And in a way, that's fine for what the party maybe wants. What it's bad for is democracy, because if we.

can't gather as citizens to together decide--. you watch-- remember in the pandemic, there were all those YouTube videos of like Zoom meetings. of school committees where people were. just like crap to one another? You're like, these people are monsters. And people get up there, and you hear about the book banning. school board meetings and the PTA meetings. or the town council meetings. People can't actually get together and even just decide, are we gonna add a new track field to our high school?

JON STEWART: Which, by the way, are, again, getting back. to Schrodinger's school board meeting, I think that's also a function of virality. That's a function of an algorithmic system that. incentivizes shitty behavior, and so they. know those are gonna be--. and we'll end here, because I wanna ask you. guys sort of a final question. Power abhors a vacuum. Is that the phrase? What fills that space? In the same way that, as legislators get more involved.

in fundraising and all these other things, lobbyists fill the law writing space. They go in there and do that. In the absence of deliberative, democratic, populist processes, isn't that space then naturally filled by think tanks? These Project 2025 from The Heritage, whatever the progressive or Democratic analog to that. would be. Don't those constitutional conventions.

get abdicated to these much more political, funded. organizations that have a real desire to push society. in one way or the other that are much more opaque, but are laying out really detailed blueprints. for how our government will operate and change? As you can see, it's that kind of thing. that got that most recent Chevron decision that made it.

almost impossible for government agencies. to regulate anything. We've seen the effect of that in Texas, where the FTC is now not allowed. to say you can't put non-compete clauses. in people's work contracts. So my point is we're going to get those scaffoldings. of American democracy. We're just not gonna know where it's coming from anymore. Would you say that's the future of all this? ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: I mean, look, I think that's--.

any time, whether it's a convention or anything else. you're talking to, that you're taking sort of power. away from the people and reducing what this democracy is. supposed to be about, then it's going. to make the electorate feel as if they don't have a voice. and that they actually don't have a say in democracy. And I have no doubt that there are people that are watching. events like this, seeing that it's already been built up. and it's already been scripted by folks that they will never. meet that they feel that they maybe.

have no idea how they are living and are saying, well, wait a minute. Is actually this political system working for me? If this whole thing is constructed. by the Washington insiders, do I actually. have a voice in this space? And I think that is a growing concern. for voters across the country. At the same time, I have to go kind of devil's advocate here. Again, this is my first convention that I've covered. But I've encountered the woman that was in the Civil Rights.

movement and have watched each of these cycles. and is still hitting the floor of the convention. because she believes in this system. and she believes that, hey, if I show up. and I talk to as many members of Congress here, my voice will be heard. I'm not saying that that's the majority. I'm not trying to put an overly positive. spin on this in any means. But I do think that events like this. also still lend themselves to that uncommitted voter. from Michigan who--.

or uncommitted delegate who is talking to every member. of Congress, to that woman I just described who's. been protesting for years. There is still, I think, a belief here. that this represents a semblance. of having your voice heard. The unfortunate thing is I do think that that might. be becoming the minority here. JON STEWART: Well, it's sort of this idea. that, yes, this is a cynical, scripted infomercial, and infinitely better than the alternative which is on there. Jill, what do you think?

JILL LEPORE: Well, I think you're right in that--. I mean, sure, there have always been. people that have policy ideas and pushed them out there. The technology they can use to push them out. there anonymizes them and maximizes contempt. for their political opponents. So unless we have some kind of regulation. around how we communicate through social media, that is only gonna get worse. But I do-- to try to have an optimistic view here, I would say that one of the things that strikes me. about the Democratic ticket is that both Tim Walz and Kamala.

Harris are public servants. And especially thinking about--. what is the one place where people still. gather together, talk about ideas, disagree with one another? Is actually the K to 12 classroom. And if Walz could usher in an era of young people committed. to public school teaching, which is the most important job. in this country or any other. JON STEWART: Oh, yeah. JILL LEPORE: This would really change. how people are trained up in the art. of being a democratic citizen. And I think Harris has some of that credibility.

too, has devoted her life to being. working for the government. I think until people can really see that you actually. have to be willing to get out, go sit. in a room with other people, hang out with them, listen to them, learn from them, share your views, then we can claw back control over what are those policy. ideas that go up to people who actually. control the levels of power. JON STEWART: I wonder, this is an incredibly dopey idea, which. is why I'm gonna end with it. But there is a certain idea that you have to perform that.

for people for them to understand it, because the truth is, classrooms. are now the latest in terms of the culture war casualties. And so any idea of teaching citizenship will, to one side, be considered indoctrination, and to the other side, be considered. But I wonder, sort of in the way. that you get those model UNs, I wonder. if there is a value in performing citizenship.

conventionally to demonstrate what that looks like for people. because, look, I'm 61. I can barely remember the idea of political conventions. as exercises in any kind of intellectual policymaking. or those things. But I wonder if, just as a project, why not recreate. the idea of what we wanna see civically. and at least put it on as a fucking show to demonstrate.

what that even looks like? Because Jill, when you tell me those examples of history, they're revelatory. But they are completely foreign to my understanding. And so I thank you for it. And Zolan, thank you very much for giving us. that on-the-floor perspective, which. also, coming through the television. isn't necessarily correct. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Sure. JON STEWART: But I very much appreciate. you guys taking the time.

Zolan Kanno-Youngs, White House correspondent, New York Times. and CNN political analyst. Jill Lepore, Professor of History and Law at Harvard, which, by the way, after this conversation, I consider myself now a graduate of that institution. from having talked to her. Staff writer at The New Yorker, author of, most recently, The Deadline. Guys, thank you so much. What a fabulous conversation on this, and I. really appreciate both of your time. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Thank you. Appreciate it. JILL LEPORE: Thanks so much, Jon. JON STEWART: All right, guys. Here's the thing.

I want a historian for every conversation I ever have. The amount of knowledge--. first of all, Zolan is great. But Jill, when she dropped an Adlai Stevenson. television studio anecdote. That might be my favorite story I've. heard in the entirety of doing this podcast is Adlai Stevenson. breaking the fourth wall when people don't even know what. fucking television is yet. Just breaking the fourth wall and going, this is all a lie.

LAUREN WALKER: No, it's so interesting. I really wish I had her as a professor. JON STEWART: Right? LAUREN WALKER: So good. JON STEWART: I would have had her as a professor. If I had been smart enough to go to Harvard, but I was not. What have we got from the viewers, the listeners? What are we dealing with this week? LAUREN WALKER: The listeners have provided us some questions. that we'd like to ask you. JON STEWART: Bring it. LAUREN WALKER: I'll start with, please, can we have our political figures. wear the same fire retardant suits with sponsors on them. like NASCAR racers?

JON STEWART: That's a fucking fabulous idea. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: To have them suited up. with all the lobbyist money? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Correct. LAUREN WALKER: Imagine how that would. look visually, though, with them all. standing next to each other. It would look like television noise. JON STEWART: Everything would moire, but what a fabulous way to humiliate all of them. Like even the most pristine and populist and independent of all. of our-- to just see Pfizer and Airbus and Raytheon.

and all of it and however much money they give be the larger--. LAUREN WALKER: Is the size of the patch? JON STEWART: Be like a word cloud. You'd have to do it like a Twitter word cloud. where NRA would be in giant letters on there. AstraZeneca. You get a few of them that are just too big and they run on. LAUREN WALKER: You have a train. JON STEWART: Hyphenated. LAUREN WALKER: It's like a Pfizer. JON STEWART: They'd have to wear extra--. some of them would have to wear extra clothing just.

to be able to contain. You'd see people with giant top hats that would just have. to have more names on there. Can I tell you something? I don't know where this came from or who said this. Sold. That idea is sold and should be instituted. Every single politician should have. to wear that race suit with all their lobby money on it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: All right. Next up. This is actually something we've. talked about before and hoping to talk about on the pod. at some point. But is it inflation or is it corporate greed.

that's being allowed by using inflation as an excuse? LAUREN WALKER: Yeah, and this is big right now. Both the Trump and Harris have been putting. out their plans for inflation. JON STEWART: Well, first of all, let's just say how the news media. fumbles the bag in any conversation on inflation. No. Kamala Harris is instituting price control. She said gouging, anti-gouging. Almost every state, including, by the way, fucking Texas,

the leader of free men everywhere, the Liberty State where you go to be your own American, has a fucking anti-gouging law. Everybody does. Because there is an idea that in a crisis, when corporations. jack up prices, that should be illegal, and everybody has that. So the idea that they don't understand this idea. of creating or enforcing, in the same way. that you would wanna enforce anti-monopolist laws,

anti-gouging laws is somehow communist? Well, then Texas is communist. Texas is a communist state if they don't allow oil. and water producers to jack up energy. and water prices in a crisis. That's not the American way. So fuck all of those news organizations. for being so ignorant of what's actually being talked about. It's so unbelievably annoying. Nobody thinks inflation isn't anything other than a very.

complex interplay between supply and demand. and all kinds of other things, but there should be no question. that corporations take advantage of opportunities. to reset pricing in difficult times. and are much faster to set the price here. than they are to bring it back down when those pressures ease. And I am so tired of the nonsense. that somehow there's nothing we can do about that.

because that's capitalism. Capitalism is a wonderful system for generating wealth, but it has destructive collateral. damage that everybody knows. And yet, we act like doing anything about it in any way. is somehow communism. Fuck this place. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Mic drop. JON STEWART: I'm sorry. I got-- I got--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: No. JON STEWART: I got upset about that, and I shouldn't have. LAUREN WALKER: I guess along that note,

what brings you joy, Jon? JON STEWART: Nothing! I mean, honestly, like, OK, you've got, oh, the price of certain commodities has gone up 10%. But somehow the price of it when it gets to you. has gone up 200%. Well, how does that happen? And yet the profit margin of that company hasn't taken. a hit in the slightest, or has even increased during a time. of crisis, to the point where you're on your earnings. calls bragging--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Exactly. JON STEWART: --about how you're killing it.

So I get the idea of supply, demand, doing the different things. But if you're telling me that you consolidation of industries. and corporate pushing of profit margin. doesn't have something to do with the inflationary moment. that we're living in, blow me. That's my-- you know what? That's my new-- yeah. Wait, what was the other question? What brings me joy? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah.

JON STEWART: Doggy kisses. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Aw. JON STEWART: No, a lot of things bring me joy. I think-- what brings you guys joy? I would like to hear this. LAUREN WALKER: I like my plants. JON STEWART: OK. LAUREN WALKER: It's a replacement for having a pet. I can't have a pet, so I get plants. And whenever there's a hole in my heart, I get another plant. And now I'm overrun with them. But I will say, I really like watching them grow. And it is a bit meditative to repot and to--. JON STEWART: Right.

So you enjoy-- there's a certain zen. to the whole process. Forgetting about the fact that visually the final product. is lovely and calming. I could see that. I could see gardening being a very meditative and wonderful. I don't know that I'd have the patience for it. Brittany, what about you? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: What brings me joy? JON STEWART: Yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I mean, most recently, eating chicken fingers and screaming Taylor. Swift lyrics at the Eras Tour.

JON STEWART: Can I tell you? If you just cut that off before the screaming. at the Taylor Swift Eras Tour, I would. say, boy, are you in luck. Because chicken fingers may be one of the most easily obtained. items, and you can get those in almost every drive. through you go through, I think almost anywhere. And by the way, our next podcast, just. to remind everybody, Friday, September 13. No podcast next two weeks. Summer break people where Brittany will be off,

filling, to her heart's content, the chicken fingers of joy while plants. bloom in Lauren's heart. I wanna thank everybody. As always, lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mehmedovic, video editor and engineer. Rob Vitola, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, researcher, associate producer Gillian Spear, and our executive producers Chris McShane, Ms. Caity Gray. Thanks a lot, guys, and we will see you in a couple of weeks. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Socials?

JON STEWART: Oh, socials. Sorry, Brittany. Hit it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Twitter, @weeklyshowpod. Instagram, Threads, and TikTok, we are @weeklyshowpodcast, and we are Weekly Show with Jon Stewart on YouTube. JON STEWART: Boom. We like to switch it up for you people. so you don't get comfortable. All right. See you guys next time. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount. Audio and Busboy Productions. [OUTRO MUSIC].