Podcasting Through It with Heather Cox Richardson | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

JON STEWART: The world faces those challenges, and potential cataclysms, and all those things, and navigating these difficult waters. The difference for me now is the captain of our ship. seems utterly disinterested in where the icebergs seem to be. and when the crash may happen. He just wants to get out. He wants to stand on his plane with a giant poster. board of his ballroom. It's the lack of interest in the consequences.

of his powerful actions is, I think, what's got me on such shaky ground. I feel like we've never been at the peril. of a leader so disinterested in the damage of his own actions. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: You're far more charitable than I am. I think the dude is cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. I mean--. JON STEWART: I was trying to be nice. [MUSIC PLAYING].

Hey, everybody, welcome to The Weekly Show podcast. My name is Jon Stewart. It is March 31. We are on the lamb side of March, moving into April. And other than that, though, I would. say I'm having a feeling of I don't. know what it's like to be on a bobsled course or on a luge, but that's what it feels like right now in this country. We appear to be careening towards something, and you're not quite sure if we are going to stay on the track. or fly off and explode in midair.

And when I have feelings like this, when the complexities. of the world and the velocity of world events. seem to be speeding towards a frightening conclusion, I reach to those, as Mr. Rogers would say, I reach for the helpers. I reach for the helpers, those that can. help put this in perspective. And our guest today is just one of my favorites. who I just love her Substack. I love everything that she does. But her ability to create frameworks.

around all these things that are so difficult for all of us. to process is what makes her such a valuable voice. in this current moment. So I'm just going to get on in and bring. on our guest, the fabulous Heather Cox Richardson. [MUSIC PLAYING]. So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct pleasure and honor. to welcome back, once again, the great Heather. Cox Richardson, professor of history at Boston College.

Heather, thank you so much for being here. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Always a pleasure, Jon. JON STEWART: Heather. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Jon. JON STEWART: First of all, let me apologize to you. that, in times of trouble, I hate to treat you like a salve. that I reach for in times need-- a bottle of Valium. Your experience and your knowledge of the arc of history. and the narratives of history always bring me a comfort.

in that the things that we're experiencing. are not necessarily unprecedented. and that there are historical analogs. which we don't want to use as a crutch, necessarily. But, Heather, I'm wondering in this moment, I wanted to reach out to you because it feels there is.

a toxicity that seems to be building to some kind. of volcanic eruption. And I can't shake that feeling of impending catastrophic. So I wanted to pick your brain a little bit about how you're. processing this moment, knowing how well you're. able to see the landscapes of the past. and lay them into the present. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: So let's start with the place.

it's always important to start, and that's. that the future is unwritten. Like, we are writing this story. And we are doing it. And one of the reasons that I think people like you. and me reach for the people around us. is because, ultimately, this is an extraordinarily. human process. The people in the past did the same thing. Yes, though, I feel as if, like you seem to feel, that we are heading toward some kind.

of a cataclysm in the next--. soon. And that, I think, we should maybe unpack a little bit. about what's going on there. But, again, to reach back into history, we are not the first people who are approaching a catastrophe. without really being able to understand. what is going to happen or what it looks like. And I always think of the fact that, years. ago, I went to write a piece on the great crash of '29. And I thought everybody's done the economics,

and everybody's done this, and everyone's done that. What am I going to do? So I went back to a newspaper from the time. and read the night before to see what it looked. like on the verge of it. And it was really interesting. JON STEWART: That's so interesting. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: So it was the opening night. of the opera in New York City. And so you had all these stories about the people. in their beautiful coaches, and the guys with the uniforms, and the people wearing diamonds, and going in, and going to see the opera. And there was a really small note about a man who had died.

by suicide that night because his business had gone under, and he was distraught, and he couldn't face the fact that he. was the only failure in this entire city, country, world, right, in his mind. JON STEWART: Wow. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: And that's always stuck in my mind. because I kept saying to the little piece of paper, dude, hang on. Hang on 12 more hours. Because if you hang on 12 more hours, there's going to be a whole lot of people. who are there with you and who might like to hear. your perspective on things.

So every time it feels to me like, oh, man, I'm not sure what we're facing in the morning, I think of that poor man who, if he had just managed to hang. on for 12 more hours, would have realized that he was not. a failure, that the system had failed, and that, together, they could rebuild it. JON STEWART: That's a beautiful way of putting it. And there's also something within that kind of tableau. that seems really appropriate, which is the cataclysm always. seems to occur the night before--.

cataclysm eve, if you will--. always seems to be draped in finery. You almost get that sense of using the Titanic--. and what's happening? The band is playing in the grand ballroom, and people are riding in luxury on what. appears to be a kind of portend for this glorious future. of riches. And then there's one dude who's like, hey, what's that?

What's that shadow of an iceberg that's over there? And it feels that way a little bit here. And I'll tell you why this moment, for me, is--. the world faces those challenges. and potential cataclysms and all those things. and navigating these difficult waters. The difference for me now is the captain of our ship. seems utterly disinterested in where the icebergs seem to be,

in when the crash may happen. He just wants to get out. He wants to stand on his plane with a giant poster. board of his ballroom. The lack of interest in the consequences. of his powerful actions is, I think, what's. got me on such shaky ground. I don't think-- I feel like we've never. been at the peril of a leader so disinterested.

in the damage of his own actions. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: You're far more charitable than I am. I think the dude is cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. I mean--. JON STEWART: I was trying to be nice. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: So I'm going to push that further. To me-- JON STEWART: Yeah, please. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: --the elephant, not only just in the room, but in the whole house, and in the whole mansion, whatever, is that he is not mentally OK. And we have Captain Ahab in the charge of the ship of state,

which would be a lovely thing to dive. into with some other conversation. JON STEWART: Yes. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: But, no, I think it's. more than he doesn't care. Because, certainly, we have had presidents in the past who. had an ideology in their head and acted according. to that ideology, even as the country began. to burn down around them. I mean, just don't even start me on Benjamin Harrison. But we could get into Calvin Coolidge, for example. But in this case, the man does not know if he's afoot. or horseback.

And so things are changing every second. And the more destruction he causes, the more he is inclined to lash out and cause more destruction. So watching that and what that has gotten us. into with the destruction of world trade, and with the destruction of our security alliances, and with the destruction of our allies, and with the fact that we're supporting oligarchs, especially petro oligarchs around the world--. I mean, what he has done is he has really slashed into ribbons.

the post-World War II order that. has brought us peace and prosperity. for 80 freaking years. JON STEWART: That's right. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: So that is entirely new. And, certainly, there are parallels in the past where. the American people have stepped up. and said to those individuals who were advancing ideologies, hey, dude, this doesn't work. We got to try something else. JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: But what that has also done is it. has opened a window, I think, into possibilities for moving. the world forward in the ways that it will need.

to in the 21st century to do things like address climate. change, and to address the migration that's going to come. from climate change, and to address the fact in that. post-World War II order, you really had more, even, than the vestiges of colonialism, but the kind of colonialist ideas that said that Africa. doesn't get a seat at the G20 until President. Joe Biden is in office. I mean, so one of the things, I think, about steering.

that Titanic past the iceberg, or maybe at least. guaranteeing that people get in the lifeboats, is people keeping a steady hand on, I'm sorry to really push that metaphor, but the ship. of state, to try and make sure that it can at least keep. afloat long enough that we are there in lifeboats. when we get the next way to look at the world. JON STEWART: Right. Yeah, the problem almost seems to be that Trump is destroying.

it faster than we can react to it-- that the squandering, it really is like, this 80-year world order that. you speak of was designed and maintained. by the United States. We created this stable world. That's where our leverage and power is coming from. And to see him piss it away with such velocity, I think.

is our system up for being able to grab the wheel? Or are we all just still trying to gain our bearings? HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Well, I think at the beginning, we were trying to gain our bearings. because things were happening so incredibly quickly. And the idea of pushing back against him through the courts, for example, takes time. That takes time to play out. But one of the things-- again, now I'm. going to be Pollyanna to you. JON STEWART: No worries.

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: One of the things that does seem to be. developing is a number of people in other countries who, at first, had their jaws on their chests watching what was. happening in the United States, are now standing up and saying, well, actually, we don't want to go down the route of going. back to the 1890s the way Donald. Trump wants to, because let's think about what that did. Oh, I know-- world wars. So in places like Italy, for example--. Italy this morning said that it would. not permit US planes to land in Italy on their way to Iran.

Well, what does that say about the importance and the ways. in which the Trump administration. and the way it's behaving is hurting the far right in Italy? They don't want to be aligned with him. And take a look at what happened to the rising. right wing parties in Canada and the emergence. of Mark Carney, the prime minister of Canada. I mean, he's incredibly smart man anyway. But his reworking of that international order, in order to make sure that what he calls the middle countries,

the middling countries, are able to maintain some kind. of global stability--. you know, what's happened to the United States is heart. wrenching over the last 40 years, at least, maybe in part because we have been so powerful, it's enabled us to get away with all kinds of crap. because we didn't have to pay taxes. We could simply borrow. We didn't have to worry about our safety. because we were the United States. What we are seeing happen to us and our role in the world.

is heart wrenching for those of us. who remember a period in which we. were really a force for good, or at least tried to be. But maybe what we will see come out of this. is a fairer order around the world, thanks to people in other countries. A little hard to be thrown into the backwater yourselves, but we did it to ourselves. JON STEWART: Right. it's so interesting to think of it. that way, as Trump as almost a vaccination. against far right populism, that they see how it operates. But maybe that's the difficulty we have in processing him,

because we look at it--. you mentioned Benjamin Harrison. You mentioned Calvin Coolidge-- and we. process him through our own system. of constitutional republic, right? But he's kind of thrown our lot in with a different form. of government. It's hard to compare him to American presidents. It's almost easier to compare him to strongmen. I mean, I don't know if you saw they. unveiled the Trump library, but it's not a library.

It's the Freedom Tower as if the only tenant. was Kim Jong Un. Like, it's twice the height of any building in Miami. And then in it are just gold statues. of Donald Trump and his plane. So how do we process an American president that. has so much more in common with the illiberal strongman. of today and the past?

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Well, so, first of all, I think it's important to realize. that he was not just breaking the law. in his first year in office. He was not acting unconstitutionally, although it. was that too-- both of those things--. he was acting as if there wasn't a Constitution, which. is one of the things-- sort of extra constitutionally--. which is one of the things that's. made him hard to chase down. Because normally, if somebody breaks the law, you say, OK, I'm going to bring in lawyers,

so I'm going to sue you, and we're going. to get to the bottom of this. But think about the Department of Government Efficiency, for example-- we still don't know. who was in charge of the Department. of Government Efficiency. JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: How do you. sue anybody if you literally do not. know who was in charge of it? So there are many ways in which the way he undertook. to undermine the Constitution, in fact, puts him in line with those autocrats who. operate without any check by the people. So I think it took a long time for people. to get their heads around that and to figure out.

how to fight back against it. And we can talk more about that. But that library, I think, is really. interesting, along with the arch. and along with all the many ways--. JON STEWART: The Arc de Triumph. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Yeah. JON STEWART: I mean, and you know when they build it, they're going to drop the I, and it's just. going to be the Arc de Trump. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: But you just said something there. JON STEWART: Yeah. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: When they build it. JON STEWART: Yes. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: So one of the things. that I find fascinating and would love to hear you talk. about this, because this is your medium and not mine,

is the degree to which what Trump is doing. is the idea of virtual technology--. that Russian concept of convincing people. in the political realm of something that does not exist, that exists only in their minds and in the technology. of television, and radio, and the internet, to base their lives on that. The degree to which we are looking at, basically, Trump running the country like a television show.

JON STEWART: No question. And in ADHD. I think what you find now is, and the only thing. I can think about is I'm trying to, again, be charitable--. is if you don't think of him as a dictator, but you think of him as, all right, he. believes the United States is really just a subsidiary. of the Trump organization. And so he's running it, if you don't think of it in terms. of Putin, you think of it in terms of a businessman running.

a company that's not public. So all the decision making that occurs, in essence, it's monarchy, but through--. a capitalist monarchy would be the charitable definition. of it. And I think what you see is he's. able to move using those processes. much faster than we're able to contain it. I think his first term struck me as he was testing the limits.

of our Constitution. Where are the holes? Where the weaknesses? The second term, he's just exploiting them. And he's doing it at such a pace--. I mean, I think the real analog to that is what happened. to the East Wing, where I'm going to build a ballroom, but I'm never going to touch the East Wing. And then it's just gone. And rather than face the consequences--. they always say like it's easier to ask. forgiveness than permission.

The thing about Trump is he doesn't. even ask fucking forgiveness. He just moves on. He is a wrecking ball that operates. simultaneously with a sort of reality distortion field. And he convinces his acolytes, like you say, through the power of narrative--. he's one of the better narrative storytellers. But it's butting up against actual reality. And that's what's so fascinating about the.

Iran situation. It's the first time I've seen him. not be able to just move on. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Well, so that's really interesting, thinking about the United States of America. as a subsidiary of the Trump oligarchy-- or not even, as a personalized--. JON STEWART: That's right. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: --company. And thinking of it as a media subsidiary-- basically, the United States is a media subsidiary. That is, you just have to tell a good story.

And we know there's a lot of stories coming out of the White. House about how White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles. is running a daily TV show, that Trump has to win. at the end of every night. The degree to which he is manipulating reality. through his posts on Truth Social. and through the things he's saying, which change by the hour. But there is-- it seems like, the way you set that up, it. does seem like there has to be a way to think through this.

that enables people to create their own reality out of things. that are actually based in reality-- like you say, like the Iran war. And, like you, I have said for years that once. people woke up and realized what was going to happen, if, in fact, we put this kind of a presidency. in place, that's when we would get our democracy back. And I do think that is happening. But I also think you just identified that it's not. happening as quickly as it needs to, as Congress.

is on break until April 13. And Trump is in the White House contemplating sending our men. and women into a ground war in Iran, which is already a disaster. And when we started out by talking--. I was a little uncomfortable using. the word "cataclysm" at first. But, boy, do these next two weeks. look like they're going to be make it or break. it weeks for our future.

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right-- so, like, if you think of it as like a circuit box, and what's the first fuse to pop that you. would go down and reboot? That would be Congress. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: I'm laughing. Like, you and I, we've done boats. We've done TV. JON STEWART: Here's the thing. Reality's too screwy. We have to find analogous situations. Congress is that first, you would. think, fuse to pop that could reset and rein this in. In your vast expanse of history,

can you recall a Congress this feckless. or one that didn't appear, I don't even know if they agree. with him, but they're so cowardly as to not. want to take a chance of even a whiff of resistance? HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: OK, so the cowardice in this Congress. is, I think, new, in part because of the ways. in which the primary system has been jiggered so.

that the people who are in Congress, the Republicans, not the Democrats, but the Republicans. who were in Congress have almost been selected to be. weenies when it came to Trump. But this is not the first Congress not to do its job. And we always point to the Congress. under Truman that he called the "Do Nothing Congress.". But of more interest, I think, in this moment is the one. in the early 1920s in which the Republicans take over from. a period of time in which the Democrats. have really dominated the early 20th.

century under Woodrow Wilson. And they've done all kinds of stuff that a lot of Republicans. really hate, like the income tax, and progressive legislation, and so on-- and, of course, all the racial stuff--. the racist stuff, too. But the Republicans complain a lot less about that. But when they get in control of Congress. in the early 1920s, they really can't get. their feet under them. They have been an opposition party for so long. that they basically don't know how to take the reins. and run anything. So they start to squabble amongst themselves, especially between the old guard, the Henry Cabot Lodges,

for example, and the younger people like "Fighting" Bob. La Follette out of Wisconsin. They just can't really get their feet under them. So what happens in that case is that the power. of the federal government slides into the cabinet. And the people who really begin to run the government. are Andrew Mellon at Treasury and are. Herbert Hoover at Commerce. JON STEWART: Who is President at this time? HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: In '20? That's '20 to '23, I think it is. It's going to be Harding, '21 to '23.

JON STEWART: OK. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Right. So they take over, and then Harding dies of a heart attack. in California. And Calvin Coolidge takes over. But he keeps them in power. And the reason I mention those names is most people, if they haven't heard of them, certainly you've heard. of Hoover when he was president--. if you go and look at buildings in your town from the 1920s, they're going to have the name of Andrew Mellon on them. because he was pretty big about making sure. his name was on everything. And what they did is they took the mechanics.

of the Progressive Era, the things that were supposed to be. in place to protect people, the new organizations. of the Progressive Era, and they stocked. them all with businessmen. And this is when we get the era, and this is not actually what he said, but the idea. that the business of America is business. and they rewrite Jesus Christ and the Apostles to be--. Jesus to be a businessman who took 10 nobodies--. JON STEWART: Famously a businessman. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Exactly. So, in that case, one of the points.

I think I made, actually, with you a year or so ago. is that power isn't vested anywhere in the United States, really, except among the people. But when it flows into Washington, it sloshes around. And sometimes you get a really powerful president. who just scoops it all up. Sometimes you get a really powerful. Congress who scoops it all up. Sometimes you get a Supreme Court. Sometimes you get the cabinet. But in a moment when you have a president who is not. able to manage the country in a coherent fashion,

and there, I'm being delicate, you do have the opportunity. to grab that power. And I thought the Republicans in the Senate. were going to do it. I thought, at least I hoped, they. were going to take their power and use. it to stabilize the country. And they didn't. They punted. The House of Representatives under the Republicans. has been laughable it is so badly organized. The Supreme Court has been grabbing for a ton of power. for a while now. So that's out there. But one of the things that I think we are seeing.

is the American people waking up. and saying, well, hey, if you guys aren't. going to be using your power for us, we'd kind of like it back. JON STEWART: And that's the thing--. that's where the opportunity, when. you talked about the optimistic vision, because you think of it--. what do we always kind of rest on the laurels of? The system of checks and balances that. were designed in the founding fathers' grand wisdom. They found ways that it was going. to be a battle between the executive, and the legislative, and the judicial,

not foreseeing that political parties might abdicate. all responsibility of power just. to hold on to power-- that there'd. be no principle behind it. And I wonder if Trump saw the weakness of that system. He saw the cowardice in that system of people. not wanting to-- because for so long, our government has displayed a grand cowardice in terms.

of bold programs designed to address the needs. of the American people. I mean, I think you talked about these last 40 years. I think there's been a real erosion between the connection. of people to the problems that they face. every day and their connection to a government that seems. to be designed, in no way, that the money that you pay in. doesn't come back to you in any way. that you feel like has a value.

And he saw that and exploited that weakness. And does that mean there's an opportunity now. on the side of the people to seize that. and exploit that weakness? And I hesitate to even put it out there, but not a strong man, but a powerful leader. to wield that on behalf of people's needs as opposed.

to their own gratification. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: To wield that governmental power. that hasn't been used? JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Oh, yeah. I think so. And I think you're seeing it. One of the things that's fun is watching. the Democratic governors around the country, and perhaps even some Republican governors, who are very deliberately saying, hey, let's take this government out for a spin. and see what we can do for people. And Zohran Mamdani in New York City--. again, same thing. Now, that's not to say you necessarily.

agree with their policies or whatever, but this idea that the government. is designed for the people is very much back on the table. But I'd go back a step and say that this is not just Trump. I actually don't think Trump saw something and exploited it. I think he's a really simple character. He is not a politician. He's a salesman. JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: And he recognized. that 40 years of Republican rhetoric. had created a population that he could exploit. Because that's what he does. He exploits people. And he did that, and he did it very effectively. But it's not just that the government sort of amorphously.

stopped doing things for people. I actually think that was a deliberate decision on the part. of certain Republican politicians who took over. the party in the 1990s, especially, but certainly were behind Reagan's election in 1980--. and they set up the system in such. a way that the American people would. no longer have a say in it. So things like tax cuts--. people said they love tax cuts.

What that really did was it managed to create real deficits. that made it harder for the government to do things. for people, and it divorced people. from having a say in their government, being behind their government, at the same time. that we began to do everything based. on extraordinary deficits. So the money coming into the government actually. didn't have a lot to do with tax dollars. It had to do with how much the government could borrow. Now, the more the American people. ended up not liking what the government was doing,

the more that the Republicans in charge of the systems. stripped those systems down so that the people had. less and less and less to say. So by 1986, you are already hearing from the Republicans. under Reagan the idea of ballot integrity, the idea that you. had to go into the rolls and clean them up. because they were not legitimate. So what do we get? We get Florida does that in 1998. And in the process of cleaning up the voter rolls,

knocks about 100,000 people off the voting. rolls in Florida in 1999. Something happened in Florida in 2000. JON STEWART: I can't remember what that was. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: But then you. think all the way through, you get. Citizens United, which makes money pour into the system. Well, who does that benefit? People who have a ton of money. You get the gerrymandering, the extraordinary gerrymandering. that makes it almost impossible for Democrats to win. JON STEWART: You get the Chevron decision, which. removes agency from agencies.

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Right. So one of the things that that has done. is it's skewed the system in a certain direction. But it's also, I think, encouraged. Americans to feel like they don't have. agency in their government. And one of the things that you have seen. since Trump was elected the second time. was people saying, hey, wait. If we turn up at Tesla dealerships, we can actually hurt the Tesla brand. And when Jimmy Kimmel got knocked off the air,

you had people saying, OK, then we're. not going to buy your product. And all of a sudden, he's back on the air. And people are learning that they do have agency. And that muscle is strengthening in a way that it. did in the 1890s, for example, in a very. similar period that led to the Progressive Era-- or the 1930s. JON STEWART: How were those muscles developed in the 1890s? Because if I was looking for an analogous period to this, and I think you make a great point about that this is. a multifaceted assault on reducing the power of people.

and the consent of the governed-- what it's sort. of doing is it's raising the bar of consent. so that you almost can't reach it, that consent is really now formulated. at the corporate board level, that their speech. is being far more valued than what the individuals. are, right? So they're designing that system, and it feels more like a Gilded Age scenario.

when those titans, like Morgan and those guys, the government really did have to go to them and go, hey, man, can you bail us out? And we'll do whatever you want. So how did they regain the power? Or does gaining that power necessarily. have to have something catastrophic. like the depression? Will we only regain our agency in the most. dire of circumstances?

Or is there a path to that that is less. tragic and more productive? HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Well, once. again, future is unwritten. We can make whatever decisions we want going forward. JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: I think it's a multifaceted answer. that I'm going to give you. One is that even in the darkest periods, one of the things that carries us through. is art and music and the communities. that those things create. So we tend to forget in that period of the robber barons.

in the 1880s and the 1890s, it's also a period. of extraordinary innovation in terms. of technology, for example, but also in terms of art and music. And you think about the new kinds of literature. and the new kinds of music coming out of the American. South and so on in that period and the artwork in that. period-- so those kinds of nurturing of the human spirit. really matter. And that's one of the things I don't think we necessarily.

pay enough attention to. But one of the ways that political change happens. is, and I've thought a lot about this, is if everything's going fine, basically no one's paying. much attention to politics. And then there are a few people who are complaining, but they're kind of voices crying in the wilderness. And you're like, yeah, whatever. Have a Cheeto, you know? [JON LAUGHING]. But then, as people get more and more upset, more and more. people are like, hey, did you hear. what that person has to say?

And they start to make a community. of people who are upset about one thing or another. And, once again, those are people that are. not necessarily in power yet. So the thing that had me thinking for a long time is, where is the relationship-- literally. the relationship-- between people. on the ground and leadership? That is, there's a lot of people who think leaders just. tell people at the bottom who to think, and there's people who think that it's the other way around. But where, for me, was the connection?

And where I came to think the connection lies is in the more. people recognize that there's a problem with their government, the more they start to formulate. a way to think about that. And if you are trying to get elected, you either are elected. or trying to get elected as a leader, you need to be able to speak to those people. So the connection between those two things. are the storytellers, the ones who. take that inchoate frustration and say,

this is not our society--. storytellers like Abraham Lincoln, for example, who say, this is not the way our society should be. But now, there's another piece to that, I think, and that is, obviously, somebody like Lincoln--. but we could pick on many other people as well--. is able to articulate what the frustrated Americans would like. their society to look like. But one of the things that they have to do. is they have to be able to reach a lot of people.

And in Lincoln's era, you got the rise. of a new kind of newspaper. People forget this, but the New York Daily Tribune, the New York Times. The Chicago Tribune, the Philadelphia--. the Philadelphia Inquirer was actually. older, but it switches its orientation in this period--. you start to see a new media amplifying that sort of story. And so if you jump ahead to the 1890s, once again, you're seeing people like Theodore Roosevelt articulating. a new kind of way to contextualize.

and imagine a new government. But crucial to him is the rise of the new newspapers. in the populist period, for example, most of which. don't exist anymore. All the copies were destroyed. But they grew up across the American Plains. and in the American South like mushrooms after the rain. And the idea of being able to make. sure more people get access to that narrative. becomes incredibly important. So if you fast forward to this moment, one of the huge.

changes that you have seen really since--. I mean, it was before there too-- but, really, since Trump was elected the second time is. this proliferation of podcasts, and new local newspapers, and write-in campaigns that look. like the committees of correspondence. from the American Revolution. You are seeing the population of our intellectual space. in this country with a new slash old narrative.

that says the government should work for us. It should not be beholden to kings, for example. And we need to take that back. So that was a really long answer. to say there's a lot of different things that happen. These things are all crucial. And in each of the periods that we have identified, there was, in fact, a major economic crash. that made people say, OK, I can't identify with JD. Rockefeller any longer because I.

am literally having to walk from South Dakota to Missouri. to find work. And that was after the panic of 1893-- from 1893 to about 1897. So when that final thing happens where people say, I can't live this way any longer, more and more people jump on that narrative. And we rewrite the country. JON STEWART: And when you see those moments, Heather, and I love the way you paint that, because what it does.

is it gives a framework to each of these periods--. that a kind of governmental or world cataclysm or failure, combined with a new way of storytelling, combined with a storyteller who is able to harness. those and push us into what will be the next iteration--. and I think in our minds, the person. that is always the hero in that story is the progressive.

Teddy Roosevelt jumps in in those moments of the robber. barons, and he decides, speak softly, carry a big stick, and trust bust, and we're not going. to have monopolies anymore, and we're going to do that. And then you talk about the '20s and the degradation. of the power of people's voices, and then FDR seizes that moment, and he brings in social programs. that ease the pain and the lives. of all these different people.

And, as you were telling it, what was coming up in my head. was 2008 financial crisis, and the Iraq war, and social media. And these are the three ingredients. But the progressive hero didn't seize that moment. And I want to ask you about this. And this is a hard one. Trump is the one who ends up seizing. that form of communication, mastering. the attention economy. But before that was Obama. And are we in a situation where Obama, was it a slightly missed.

opportunity to seize upon those as conditions that could have. really created that modern progressive revolution. that ended up maybe dissipating because it wasn't bold enough? Is that possible? HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: It's certainly possible, sure.

But, again, one of the things you need to see there. is enough people unhappy enough that they would not, for example, embrace the reaction to Obama that powered. the Tea Party movement and all the reframing of our country. to be against somebody like Obama. And that, by the way, looks a great deal. more like the long term rise of something. like the elite Southern enslavers. who managed to get a whole bunch of people.

to stay behind them, even though that economic system. was grinding them into the ground--. grinding poor white farmers into the ground. So, yes, it's possible. And, certainly, there were many people. who were frustrated by the fact that Obama was not. as aggressive as he could have been. about embracing those old traditional let's. take on big money and so on. But I'm not entirely sure that, one, it's productive to look.

back to that. But two, one of the things about Lincoln, and about. Theodore Roosevelt, and about FDR. is that the people really created them. In each one of those cases, those. were people who met the moment, not because they were somehow. specially anointed by God. They were certainly very bright people. But the American people were ready for them. And I think, in some ways, maybe you. could say the American people were ready for Donald Trump, because he was embracing and articulating.

what a lot of people on the radical right. had been conditioned to believe for 40 years. Now--. JON STEWART: Hey, look, longer. I mean, he's singing an old song, Heather. I mean, the song he's singing about, there is a real America, and a real American, and they're the ones being screwed. Like, that's a pretty old song that. even goes back to what you were talking about in the South. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: So, yes, it is. I mean, it goes all the way back to our founding. But so does the other song. And I guess that's the point that I'm.

always trying to make-- JON STEWART: Yes. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: --is that when. we sing that other song, a number of things happen. One, the economy is better. And when the economy is better--. I mean, this is a connection few people recognize. When the economy is better, race and gender relations. get better. Those two things do go hand in hand. But when we think about our heroes. that we look to in our country, we don't look to the neo-Nazis.

We don't look to the Confederates. We look to Fannie Lou Hamer and the people that really have. shown to expand the principles of the Declaration. of Independence to include more people with every iteration. JON STEWART: An expansion of rights, and an expansion of fairness, and an expansion of justice. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: So what I would love to see. is, first of all, the embracing of those liberal principles. JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: But also, one of the other patterns. we have in the United States that kind of makes historians.

bonkers is that--. I assume I can say the shit hits the fan on this podcast. JON STEWART: Heather, it might be the nicest thing anybody's. said on this podcast. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: So we turn. everything over to the rich guys, the shit hits the fan, everybody steps up and says, oh, gee, we. really need some regulation. We put the regulations around it, everything stabilizes, and then somebody goes, I'm not making enough money.

And so all of a sudden, we turn it back over to the rich guys. The shit hits the fan. And our example of that in American history. is the cattle industry, believe it or not, which is this boom and bust industry. And every time things go really bad, the cattle ranchers say, hey, we really need. some regulation over here. And the federal government steps in. And then everything stabilizes. And they go, hey, I'm Cliven Bundy, get out of my. life, right? So if we could figure out how to stop that constant swing. back and forth-- because every time we do that swing,

it hurts people a lot. And it hurts the environment a lot. When I think about the 21st century, I want to get back to a country that does expand the rights. of the Declaration of Independence and that. puts us on the same plane that we've been. in our better moments. But I would also really love for us to find some way. to create those guardrails so that people can't say, oh, wow, we have the strongest economy in the world. You know what let's do? Let's screw with it. Or we have the safest world we've ever lived in.

I've got a great idea. Let's go to war against Iran. JON STEWART: Heather, is part of it because--. it strikes me this is a great discussion to have about. It's how you convince people-- because I. think the cattle rancher thing is. a great historical precedent. And you can look at it today with the farmers. What I find is if the government does something. for someone that you yourself don't need, well, that's an entitlement. And you resent it.

But if the government does something that you need, well, that's just. And that's just them giving you back your money. So if we subsidize farming because--. and they always make this case, by the way. Like, why are we putting tariffs on? Well, because certain policies that were put into place. hurt the Rust Belt, and hurt manufacturing, and made. it so those people's lives would be lives more of despair. And we must repair the damage that's.

been done by those policies. But if you say the same thing about redlining or racially. exclusive policies, we need to create ways. to repair that damage, what? That's an entitlement. They're free riders. They don't view it as investment. How do you convince people-- like, the immigration. situation right now in this country. is-- it's resource guarding.

How do you reshape the narrative. so that we're able to invest, once again, in our people. and not have those investments be so resented by anybody. that might not need it? How do you broaden people's perspective in that way? HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Well, what. you just identified there was missing one big word,

and that's race. You know, that language literally comes out. of the 1870s, and the idea that the federal government was. going to try to level the economic, especially, but also the--. I won't say social, because they weren't really into that. They were trying to make sure that Black Americans weren't. killed by their white neighbors, which seems like not. a very high bar, right? That's when you get the language. in 1871 saying, hey, hey, we don't have a problem with race. We have a problem with poor people voting.

JON STEWART: So you've got to pay $10 to go to the polls. And you've got to do it. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Right. All of that stuff, that comes straight out of the 1870s. And, again, we could spend a long time on that. But, crucially, we know what language. works to get rid of that. And that is the language of community. And that is the idea that we are. all working together to achieve something as a country. And, again, one of the things the radical right did really.

brilliantly after 1960, there's a famous article that comes out. in 1960 addressed to politicians saying, stop talking about democracy. And stop talking about the values of community. and making sure everybody's got a shot. at the American dream and all that, because we all agree about that. Republicans and Democrats agree about that. So stop with that. It's a waste of your time and money. Instead, work at putting together coalitions. So, basically, the traditional Republicans. and the traditional Democrats listened to that. and started to just try to nail together coalitions.

We'll give you a bridge, and we'll give you, I don't know, a new hospital, or whatever. JON STEWART: Pure transaction. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Transactional, yes. It was the radical right who said, we are going to defend. individuals to make them able to take on the empire, tying into all those tropes of literature and mythology. that said, you're going to matter to us. Your vote matters for something way. bigger than you are, something that is the United.

States of America-- sometimes something that is God, you matter. And one of the things that I try and do and that I think we. all should be trying to do more is recognizing that the values. of humanity, the idea of self-determination and the idea. that you get to create a government that allows you. to have the freedom-- and by "freedom,". I don't mean a lack of government so much. as government protections to enable you to get an education, and have health care, and so on, so you can become whoever.

you want, is actually a profoundly. moral and a profoundly principled thing to do. And you think about all around the world where people are. in the streets fighting for their right to vote, for example, or the right to have. a say in their government-- and then. in the United States, people saying, I'm not going to bother. We need to get more of that this. matters not just because I want the potholes. outside my house filled.

This matters because the human effort for self-determination. and a government that reflects that. not only in my own government, but around the world, matter. morally and for society. That kind of language is what gave us the attempts. in the 1950s to level the playing field for people. of color, for example, and in the 1970s, including women as well. That language really works.

But we have to stop thinking, oh, it's a done deal. We don't have to worry about it any longer. JON STEWART: Right. Well, they always say the arc of the moral universe. bends towards justice. But they don't explain, yeah, but not by itself. And there's a bunch of people on the other side trying. to bend it back the other way. And I wonder, when we talk about the moral argument, do we have to connect it to more earthly values for people?

Because it feels like that's the backlash that we're facing. That if the right was going to draw a line-- like, what you and I might do is draw a line at the. Depression, right? And we might draw a line at FDR coming in and creating. a government that is more designed. for the benefit of the people it purports to represent. They would draw a line at 1964 and 1965. They would draw a line at the Civil Rights Act.

And they would draw a line at the Immigration Act, which. let in people from countries that they didn't quite have--. ignoring the fact that they hated the Irish, and they hated the Italians, and they hated. the Jews back when they came. But now, you're bringing in people. And so their perspective on that is now our country. is being given away to people who don't have--. shit, they even use the phrase, the heritage Americans are more. important than the other Americans--. that somehow the Scotch-Irish that were here in the 1850s.

were somehow better Americans than the ones that. came in in the '60s and '70s. So, in some ways, what's happened over that. time is the backlash, right? They've all been convinced that their country's. been given away to those that don't deserve it. Do we need to make the argument for them? Will they ever be convinced on the morality of it? Or do they have to also be convinced that it's actually.

a more prosperous union, that it makes it a safer. and more prosperous place? HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Oh, I think those two. have to go hand in hand. JON STEWART: Yeah. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: But they do. They do go hand in hand. So it's a really easy sell in the 1950s, because people had watched what happened under fascism. in Europe-- and not just the horrors that we tend to think. about when we think about those regimes, but also the fact that when the Europeans, and the Allies,

and the Americans came in, they were. feeding those people because they literally couldn't eat. Or if you look at what happened in the Soviet Union. and in China, when there was an attempt. to impose an ideology over the agricultural systems, you had these horrific periods when. tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and even millions of people died. But one of the key things that you are identifying, I think, is, first of all, yes--. I mean, I think we need to talk a lot. more about the American dream. And that is not having a car in your garage or whatever.

It means that you are able to work hard and rise, whatever. that looks like for you, so that your kids are going. to have a better life than you did-- again, whatever. that looks like for you. I do think we need to keep that as part of our language. and reality of it. But there's also something key to what you said. And that, I think, is something that is fascinating. That when you listen to people nowadays talking about. their desire to shut the door for other immigrants. because their country is being stolen or whatever-- and again,

I'm not putting aside--. I'm not going to talk here at all about the reality. that, to the degree our country is being taken over, it's actually being taken over by corporations, including foreign corporations. So this idea that some family from Ecuador. is taking something from me is just a pure fantasy. JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: But that world. that they are describing is a world where. there are limited resources--. the pie is only this big, and, by god, you got to get your piece.

JON STEWART: But the elites are stealing it from you. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Well, but the reality. of the way that people like me think about the world. is that, in fact, the pie is expanding. And I, again, don't necessarily just mean the economic pie. Although, certainly, if you look at the last 80 years. around the world, more than a billion. people have been raised out of poverty, which is a good thing. They're not dying of starvation, and lack. of clean water, and so on. Others still are. We could address that if we chose to.

But the idea of keeping the pie small so that I can get my half. or whatever basically says that we are trying to limit. the ability of individuals to grow and improve this world, because only by keeping it small can we monopolize it. Whereas if you say, hey, as Abraham Lincoln did, sorry, but also Theodore Roosevelt--. whereas if you say, hey, we want you here.

because we want your ideas, and we want your labor, and we want your view of the world. What you were saying is we don't have limits. And, again, I'm not saying we don't have economic limits. I'm very concerned about climate change. But there are ways to address that if we have those new ideas. and those new people. And that idea of looking at the world as a world. of possibilities rather than limitations. seems to me to be what the United States of America. has always done particularly well. And these people are saying, no, no, no,

no, no, forget our past. We just have to hang on to what we had in the 1920s, because that was the best. And that was a cramped world that excluded most of us. So let's not go back to the 1920s. And that angle of, are we looking for an expansive. economy, an expansive world, an expansive intellectual. understanding of the 21st century, or are. we going to go back to--. if Trump talks one more time about William McKinley,

my head's going to explode, because it wasn't a great time. JON STEWART: We were the richest we ever were. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Well, McKinley and his people. were, but talk to the little girls who. were working in the factories. JON STEWART: But that's what they've gone back to. What's so interesting to me, Heather, is everything. that you lay out is so factually evident. through the prism of history. And what they've done is say, no, what we need to do is close our doors. and go back to a more imperialistic, exploitative model of economics, which is we don't.

build our own strength up to make ourselves. through education, and science, and innovation, and all these. other things, inevitable. What we do is we close our borders, and we use our military might to extract the resources. that we need at the most exploitative manner of price. that we can--. colonialism, which worked so well for everybody.

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It's now available in Canada to. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E, Quince.com/TWS for free. shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com/TWS. [MUSIC PLAYING]. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: I was talking with another historian. the other day, and we were mutually expressing. extraordinary frustration because, in fact, one.

of the things that's cool about history. is that you can't look at tomorrow. and know what's going to happen. You can read the tea leaves, and we. know a lot about what has happened, but not about the future. But one of the things that we can all say with great clarity. is we know exactly how this turns out. when a group of people try to monopolize resources, close. the expansion of their societies, and turn everybody else into their serfs, basically.

JON STEWART: Vassals. Right. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: We don't. know if it's going to happen tomorrow, or in five years, or in 10 years, or in 40 years, but it always, always, always ends up the same way. And to sit there and watch us playing this out step by step. by step, a lot of us are like, can. we just go to that last scene? Because we all know what that last scene is going to be. Now, if we do the other thing where we empower individuals.

to innovate, and to move, and to do the things. that they do best, we don't know. how that's going to turn out. We know it's going to create a world that you. and I can't even imagine. And, given those two options, man, why on Earth would. you choose, you know, sorry, but the pitchforks. and piano wire? JON STEWART: And the crazy part is that the ultimate paradox. or contradiction is exactly what you're describing. is the story of America's founding--.

that it was a rejection of that particular system. That it's an exploitative system. where the voices of the governed. were ignored because of the resources. that they could extract out of the population. And that's why we began. That's what birthed us. That fight was our fight. And so to see us become the very thing that we rejected. is so hard to process, especially when you think.

about how that movement, Trump's movement, wraps themselves in the iconography of our founding. How many buses have you seen there with "we the people,". and "don't tread on me," and all those sorts of totems. of our revolution, while creating a system. that's antithetical to the entirety of the purpose. of that revolution. And I don't know if they--. I certainly don't think that they, in any way,

see that contradiction. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: No. But that's one of the things that. makes the United States so cool is that, in many ways, we act out humanity. You're always going to have those people. who want to control others. You just are, because humans are going to human. JON STEWART: That's got to be a bumper sticker, Heather. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: There you go. JON STEWART: Humans are going to human. Yeah. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: But you also. have human beings trying to do what. is right not just for other people, but also for themselves.

And when you think about this moment, and its parallels to the American founding, or to the other periods in which there have been those. trying to literally get rid of human equality, in the case of the elite enslavers who put together. the Confederacy, or the robber barons in the 1890s, or those looking to create an international. business system in the 1920s that. created large pools of labor--. when you think about that and you think about Americans kind. of looking at each other and going,

hey, I disagree with you about finances, or immigration, or internal improvements, or whatever, but I. can agree with you that we need to control our own destinies--. in the past, that has always won and come out stronger. for these moments. So for as frustrating as this moment is in so many ways, and as depressing as it is in so many ways, one of the things that you can take to the bank. is the idea that it might make us stronger again.

and renew our faith in those American principles that. led those colonists to throw off the greatest. empire at the time in the world--. a seemingly impossible task that they did. And then to sit down, young men all, by the way--. we talk about the founding fathers. They were barely old enough to be fathers-- to write. a system that worked and has worked for almost 250 years,

kind of cool to be part of that whole history and that. trajectory through our past. So that, at least, is a way to look forward. to these next really rough weeks and the next rough years. and think maybe we're given the opportunity to do our own part. JON STEWART: But I love what you're. saying with that, Heather. And it reminds me--. to wrap it around--. you said sort of early on one thing. that I think has to be a top of mind, which.

is you don't know the future. It hasn't been written. And as we watch these sorts of almost slow motion car crash. happening, the fact of the matter. is we can, in our frustration, overturn those injustices. And we can, in our frustration, regain and have a more--. we can reaffirm our--.

we can reaffirm our desire to create the society that we. think is fair and to do that in a way that. isn't necessarily over an epoch, but it can happen in a moment. It really can. And, again, now I'm the Pollyanna. But I do think that in the way that we've been caught off. guard by these last 10, 12 years, or maybe even. the slow erosion of it through the last 40,

there exists great opportunity. And I guess I want to ask you, as we wrap it up, do you see that opportunity? Do you think of it in terms of well, we can overturn Citizens United, we can do these things? Or do you think it's going to be a bolder form of change. that's going to come through now. that the executive has been supercharged, use that to our benefit?

Which way would you like to see it go, knowing that we can't know? HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Oh, I think it's got to be big. JON STEWART: Yeah. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: And I certainly. would agree with overturning Citizens. United and all the pieces that you are talking about. But those are only mechanics for a reworking of a government. and a country, really, that has been dramatically degraded. since the 1970s, in part because of that myth that.

the radical right promulgated that. you and I talked about before. You look at where the United States of America is. in the 21st century compared to other countries, and it's, frankly, embarrassing, a number of the ways in which we are not keeping pace. with the rest of the world. In this era, one of the things that you and I are dancing. around in the need to deal with our political system. is the fact that climate change is very real.

and simply must be addressed. And from that--. JON STEWART: And you know who's doing it? The Chinese. Our greatest rival has already electrified their grid. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Well, which is, again, another question-- why is Trump deliberately. and desperately trying to get us back. to 19th century technology? I mean, which is--. that's a whole other conversation. JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: But this is not--. I guess if you think of it in terms of health. and the health of the body politic,

we have let a disease run rampant for a long time. And it's coming very close to killing us. And you can't just say, OK, OK, I really am now going. to maybe clean out the wound. Like, at this point, we have to rethink the way democracy. interfaces with a global economy, a global world. and that where everybody has instantaneous ability. to communicate with each other and to support each other.

or tear each other down. What that looks like, I don't know. I know I'm watching Mark Carney very closely. in Canada, because I think he's coming. up with a lot of new ideas. But this is not going to be a case of saying, hey, maybe we can pick up a few voters over here. This is a case of saying, we need to rethink this. And in the past, again, you look at Lincoln, you look at FDR, you look at Theodore Roosevelt--. these things worked at the time. But crucial to it is going to have. to be the voices and the support of the American people.

We do not want a dictator, even one who comes in and says, hey, I'm going to do everything right. We need to have somebody who is actually reflecting. the real will of the people, expressed through free and fair. elections, getting rid of the partisan gerrymandering, the. money in elections, and so on. So, yeah, I think it's time for a bold vision. And I think, crucially, as well, to go back to what we were saying. before, we are creating that. We are telling politicians who want to be elected.

that this is what we want. And that's how we will create somebody who. can rise to meet the moment. JON STEWART: And when you see that, the enthusiasm and almost the joy of the populace. is self-evident. And I don't know that I can recall a moment in my life, and that's speaking through Watergate, and Vietnam, and the oil shocks, and all the different sorts. of difficult spikes, and ebbs, and things that we've all lived.

through, where the people feel more ready for that vision. to be laid out coherently. And, I mean, honestly, like, I think. somebody who ran on sane policy competently executed. could win 60%. Like, I don't think we're as divided. as the social media would monetarily. incentivize us to be. And I do think--.

and power abhors a vacuum, right? Like, there is a moment right now. for exactly what you're saying to you feel it bubbling. throughout the country. And you just know that it's going to be harnessed. You just feel it, because you can feel us creeping. towards an iceberg, maybe. But you also feel something else. There's also another vibration that exists that feels. optimistic and hopeful.

And, man, people are so much thirstier for it. than the antithesis of it. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: We're going. to make you a historian, Jon. JON STEWART: I wish. I love it. Heather Cox Richardson, I gotta tell you, you are such--. I could talk to you forever. It's so wonderful to hear your perspective on things. And it so helps me to-- you know what it is? And I don't mean to put this on you, but you help me organize my anxiety, if that makes sense.

Like, you give me a framework. And once I have a framework, I feel. like I can work through it. It doesn't change what may happen, as you said, or give me the answer. But, boy, does it give me some organizing principles. by which to place things on. I can't thank you enough for being on. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Well, I'm glad to hear that. And all we're trying to do is make sure we're. standing on solid ground. And that's all I do. I help to show people where the ground is.

JON STEWART: You do it better than anyone. Heather Cox Richardson, a wonderful professor of history. at Boston College, and author, and just. check out everything that she does. She's a one-man band that just is fantastic. So thank you once again for being with us. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Always a pleasure. [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: Man, she's so fucking good. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: She's so good. JON STEWART: So smart. And I feel terrible because it really-- like, you. do feel a little bit like--.

because she's also so prolific and she's like, hey, could you just take, like, a couple hours out of your day. of, like, making all this great stuff. to give me some organizing principles by which I can. somehow hang my anxiety buckets onto, a little bit of historical perspective? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Can you carve out a few hours. to be my therapist? JON STEWART: Yes. LAUREN WALKER: All of her Substack posts. take all of the disparate news of the day and give it order. It's very helpful, I think, in the same way. this podcast was helpful for you--. of just organizing, as you said, your anxieties so you know how to process it.

instead of being overwhelmed by it, I guess. JON STEWART: And she synthesizes it. She brings it--. I think it's a gift. You know, a lot of people can under-- they understand facts, but they don't necessarily know how. to synthesize it through different eras. and bring it forward to here. And I still think the most powerful. thing she kept saying was, we don't know what is next.

But we know that we can have a role in shaping it. LAUREN WALKER: I feel like Doris as well--. JON STEWART: Doris Kearns. LAUREN WALKER: --had said something like that to us. And it is really nice to be reminded of that. by people who know our world best. JON STEWART: Right. Who see it. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. You could wake up tomorrow to a good New York Times alert, if there's ever been such a thing. JON STEWART: A good New York Times alert? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Anything's possible. GILLIAN SPEER: I know. It's anachronistic. It almost doesn't make sense off the tongue. JON STEWART: Did you see-- so the New York.

Times wrote an article about--. they examined some of Trump's architectural plans. for the ballroom. And so they wrote an article saying, like, hey, there's a couple of things you might want to look at. Like, there's no doors, or these stairs don't go anywhere. LAUREN WALKER: These views blocked by endless columns. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It's a trap house. Yeah. JON STEWART: These views are blocked. And, like, I think you might need a toilet. Like, just little, like--. and the idea that he is more aggressive defending his plan.

for the ballroom than for the war in Iran, or that he presented a more thorough case, with visual aids, about that ballroom than he. has in the entirety of this war. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: The man has priorities. And it is throwing a party. GILLIAN SPEER: Like, it's starting to feel. like next level senile. I feel like we've like-- it's different than Trump one,

for sure. LAUREN WALKER: I'm not sure I've been watching--. I mean, I don't know what's going on with that man's. health, obviously, but something I have been picking. up on is, OK, we've seen all these think. pieces about the Iran war breaking up the MAGAsphere. Fine, whatever. But you also see people really going to bat for him. and writing the narrative for him. JON STEWART: Right. LAUREN WALKER: Can you imagine them saying that about Biden? Oh, Biden just got convinced. And we really need to blame the people who convinced him. JON STEWART: Of course. The man who has the greatest agency that has ever.

been promoted from the Oval Office. suddenly is at a whim of-- the thing. that I get most frustrated with is I think that what. is happening with Trump right now-- like, we're all. pointing to well, he got convinced, or maybe his mental acuity. This is who he's been from the get go. Like, when people say, like, well, I'm upset with him now. and I regret my vote because he lied. He lied the minute he came down the escalator through, like, oh, it's the largest inauguration that's ever. been seen through history.

Like, there is nothing fundamentally. different about his decision making process. or about the manner in which his ADD. pushes him from lurching from one endeavor to another. It's like when we said he's a movie trailer president. He doesn't have the stamina to sit through the whole movie. He's just the trailers. And right now, the Iran war-- hey, the trailer is done. Now what do I do? So now I just got to leave. Like, it so frustrates me that all these people on the right.

are like, oh, this--. boy, this really pushed me over the edge. And, like, this is the same fucking thing we've been. dealing with for 12 years. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: And more. JON STEWART: Or 14, 80, 100. LAUREN WALKER: I was just thinking. about how Iran now speaks to him, too, in trailers. Like, everyone kind of sees it. They make these fake LEGO propaganda. videos to get his attention. JON STEWART: Yeah. It is so weird that, like, he'll. say to them through Truth Social,

like, I will bomb if you don't do this. And you're like, why are you telling us? Tell them. Like, what is the point of posting? And apparently, they create trailers. that they show to him of, like, bombs going off, intercut with, like, the guys from Top Gun. playing volleyball shirtless. GILLIAN SPEER: They're like, see, ship go boom, two-minute highlights. And that's it. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. Heather brought this up in one of her recent Substacks,

that people are starting to get concerned. because he doesn't know a lot about the war. that he's perpetrating. And if his briefings are two-minute blow-up sequences, like, makes sense. GILLIAN SPEER: There's only so much you can learn. JON STEWART: You know what? That's a good point. But anytime you get the sense that somebody is Sparksnoting. their way through a war, like, that's the part that we've all. been asked to sacrifice for his vision of America's greatness, whether it's through his inflationary tariffs,

or whether it's through higher gas prices, or whether it's through a removal. of some of our civil rights protections. But we keep being told, like, you've just got to be--. this guy's got a vision. But he doesn't have to ever change anything. He can still, in the middle of a war, do fucking five minutes on Sharpie pens, and we're all supposed to just be like, hey, Trump's going to Trump. Like, when is he the one who is going. to have to own up and take accountability.

and responsibility? Why is it on us or our allies? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I was going to be honest--. I was coming off of the Heather conversation very grounded. And this conversation-- JON STEWART: All right. All right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: You undid all the good work. JON STEWART: Get Heather back on the line. All right, Brittany, what do we got from the people? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: OK. First up, Jon, do you think all of the government buildings. Trump renamed after himself will. revert back to their original names once he leaves office?

JON STEWART: Here's my hope. Here's what I think happens--. I think RFK, Jr. gets elected president, and then he renames it the Kennedy Trump Kennedy Center. GILLIAN SPEER: I was going to say, luckily, his name is already on shit. JON STEWART: Yes. So what we do is whoever gets elected next, I think we just use Trump as our maiden name. So we leave it in there. LAUREN WALKER: Just hyphenated it. Yeah. JON STEWART: That's right. LAUREN WALKER: That's what he did. JON STEWART: From now on, we'll just. hyphenate everything, according to the new president. And then by the end of whatever how long this country gets.

to go, we just have these super long attenuated-- the Trump. Reagan Dulles Kennedy--. LAUREN WALKER: Put everybody's name up there. JON STEWART: Yeah. By the way, did you see the rendering of his library? GILLIAN SPEER: Yes. Was it a rendering or was it just, like, an AI--. JON STEWART: That's what it was--. AI. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. And Eric Trump was like, I've been working so hard on this. JON STEWART: I'm so proud of it. And you're like, really? Because it looks like you could just plug in, like, make a skyscraper in Miami look like Vegas.

And then the interior of it is literally just. gold statues of Trump. And I'm like, what? GILLIAN SPEER: Wait, I think somebody. actually said that the flag had, like, 54 stars or something. Like, it literally was just-- it was so AI. JON STEWART: Well, that's including. Canada, Greenland, Venezuela. GILLIAN SPEER: Iran? JON STEWART: That's right. GILLIAN SPEER: It's an aspirational flag. JON STEWART: That's right. It's the future. LAUREN WALKER: Just in, like, a practical sense, though, it is going to get confusing if too. many things are named Trump.

Like, I'm going from Trump Station to Trump Station, you know? JON STEWART: It's like in Washington, DC, where you have four 8th Streets, but they don't intersect. LAUREN WALKER: Or like Penn Station. New York, Penn Station Newark. Like, there are-- it does get confusing. So, Palm Beach Airport--. JON STEWART: You know what it's going to be? It's going to be like when you live with the Smurfs, where everything is just Smurf. The language is just it's Trumpety, Trump, Trump, Trumping-- you know. All right, what else do you want to know?

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Jon, do you ever miss. the simpler days of QAnon? JON STEWART: Oh, they're still there. They're just trying to figure out-- look, they've--. I think they've had a rough ride. Because imagine if, like, your hero, the guy who was going. to bring the storm, turns out to be the guy who's. like, storm? What storm? What are you-- there's no storm here. And they're like, no, I think we have the storm. I think it's right there, if you. could just bring it out here. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. They cast someone as a hero who not only turned out not to be.

the hero, turned out to maybe be working. in league with the villain. GILLIAN SPEER: Yeah, I think they're having difficulty. coming to terms with that. JON STEWART: Right? I assume it lost some steam. That was more first semester Trump, wasn't it? And then when the storm never came, it felt like that movement sort of dissipated. I think their interest in--.

and to give the movement credit beyond the conspiracy theories. of it, the idea of protecting children from sex trafficking. is a pretty good one. GILLIAN SPEER: Yeah. Where are they now? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I can support that. JON STEWART: Yeah. Honestly, if it didn't fit into their more partisan mindset, maybe they dropped it. I honestly don't know. It felt like the Epstein case was at least a good tent post.

that they could work off of. But it feels like it's dissipated. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. Their main bad guy is not even really around. JON STEWART: Was Biden their--. was Biden their bad guy? GILLIAN SPEER: I guess. But I'll be honest--. Brandon is still all over Long Island. Like, the signs are there. It's on the back of trucks. Like--. LAUREN WALKER: What do they think he's up to now? JON STEWART: They just don't take the bumper stickers off. I see that all the time. GILLIAN SPEER: OK. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. I mean, it's like they have old cars. It's hard to get bumper stickers off, you guys.

Like, you have to get the vinegar. You got to get the nail polish remover. JON STEWART: You have no idea how many "Fuck Biden". cars I drive behind. And I always just think, like, is the emotion still there? Like, are you still fiery? Or you literally just don't have a scraper? I just don't-- it's hard to even understand it. But a lot of the accoutrement, the Festivus Trump decorations,

are still up. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I can't wait. for the summer to see if the flags are still on the water. JON STEWART: Oh, that'll be interesting, because Trump, no matter what you think of his popularity, he does rule the sea. GILLIAN SPEER: He sure does. His armada. JON STEWART: For sure. GILLIAN SPEER: Yeah. JON STEWART: All right. Last one. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Last one. Jon, is your wife as funny as you? JON STEWART: She's funnier than I am, and nicer. than I am, and sweeter than I am, and better looking than I am.

And I'm actually, as I'm getting older, I think she might even be taller than I am. [LAUGHTER]. That was not our relationship when I first met her, But, there are certain times I'll be standing in the kitchen. and be like, are you--. you're not even in heels. What's going on? I think, as they say with cereal, contents may have settled during shipping. I have a feeling that I'm slowly compacting. But, no, everybody thinks that. She's just the funniest-- and her laugh is like sunshine.

It's just a little ridiculous. She's just one of those people that lights it up, for sure. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: That's so sweet. GILLIAN SPEER: Very sweet. JON STEWART: Yeah. She's all right, that chick. She's all right. But very cool. Brittany, how can they keep in touch with us? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Twitter, we are WeeklyShowPod. Instagram, Threads, TikTok, Bluesky, we. are WeeklyShowPodcast. And you can like, subscribe, and comment.

on our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: Sweet. And we're off next week, back April 15. And I don't know what we're going to be talking about, because the world is static. So we'll probably plan something. out for those two weeks. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh, what are we doing? JON STEWART: Ben McKenzie. Oh, he's coming out with the crypto book. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes, he is. JON STEWART: Oh, what a perfect-- that'll. be a perfect tax day lollapalooza there. Ben McKenzie and his crypto book about corruption. and all those things.

And, as always, I hope you guys have a great week off. And thank you, once again, for, boy, this episode is just one of my favorites, just put together so nicely by everybody. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mehmedovic, producer Gillian Speer, video editor. and engineer Rob Vitola, audio editor. and engineer Nicole Boyce. And our executive producer is Chris McShane and Caity Gray. Thank you guys so much. We'll see you next time. Bye bye. [MUSIC PLAYING]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast.

It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions.