On Gaza and Humanity featuring Mosab Abu Toha | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

[ROCK MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Hey, everybody. It's me, Jon Stewart. We're doing The Weekly Show Podcast. It is Wednesday, August 6. It is-- it is--. tomorrow is Thursday, I guess, August 7. The summer is supposed to be quiet. I think that's the way things are-- are supposed to go, but it hasn't really worked out that way. I'm not going to talk actually too much. moving into this because we have a conversation.

today that I think is--. I think it's an important one. I think it's a sobering one, certainly. And so I just kind of want to get into it. I've had conversations over these past many months. with Jewish people, and Arab people, and Palestinian people, but I really wanted to-- to give some time to someone. from Gaza, someone whose family is there, who was born there, grew up there and hear that perspective,

one that I don't necessarily see a lot of. So I'm just going to get in. He's an incredible writer, and incredible poet. Winner of a Pulitzer for his writing. And I'm just going to introduce him. His name is Mosab Abu Toha. He's a poet. He's an author. And I want to get him in right now. [ROCK MUSIC].

All right, folks. So we're going to talk. Obviously, this is an incredibly fraught. situation and a difficult one. But I became aware of a gentleman. whose writings I quite admired as an author and a poet. His name is Mosab Abu Toha. He joins us now. Mosab, thank you so much for-- for joining. us and taking some time today. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Thank you so much, Jon. Looking forward to the conversation. JON STEWART: Mosab, I wanted to ask you, just--. for people that are listening at home, just to brief,

you were born in Gaza. Is that correct? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes, I was born in Gaza in a refugee camp. called Shati Refugee camp, the same refugee camp where. my father was born in 1962, and the same refugee camp where. my grandparents lived until they died. after they were expelled from their homes. in 1948, from Jaffa. So that's where I was born. JON STEWART: This was a refugee camp. that became more of a city?

MOSAB ABU TOHA: Exactly. And this is something that is, you know, outrageous when you see people commenting. on some of the photos we post of the refugee camps. Whether it's the Jabalia refugee camp in North Gaza. where my mother was born, they say, oh, this is a refugee camp? There are no tents. But I mean, come on. It's 77 years of occupation. And these people have been living in--. I mean, do you expect people to live in tents for 77 years? This is really-- I mean, this is sadistic, the way that they make fun of our lives, or the terms.

that we are using--. still using for the places where we were living. Supposedly, you know, it was--. a refugee camp is a temporary place. But it's been 77 years and there are eight. refugee camps in Gaza, Jon. JON STEWART: Eight of them? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. There is the Shati refugee camp where I was born. Also my father was born there. There is the Jabalia refugee camp in North Gaza. There is the one in Rafah that Israel erased, and there is one in Nuseirat. You hear this-- the name of the city, Nuseirat, Al-Bureij,

Maghazi, Khan Younis. There are refugee camps in these areas. And Israel decimated, as far as I know, two of them, the Jabalia refugee camp where my mother was born, and also my two maternal grandparents were born. They were not born during the Nakba, my maternal grandparents. So they were born in the Jabalia refugee camp, and I was sheltering in the Jabalia refugee camp. before I had to leave Gaza in December 2023. And I looked at videos, Jon, nothing.

is left of the refugee camp. And the same thing with Rafah. They decimated the whole city, including. the refugee camp there. And if you want to talk more about this, it is heartbreaking for me, as a Palestinian, to realize. that not only did the world watch Israel turn 70%, currently, of the Gazan population. into refugees and their descendants, but also has carried out a military campaign, and a genocidal one in which they erased two refugee camps. So they are even making the refugee.

experience for the Palestinians a hellish experience. Not only are they made refugees, not only are. they killed. There are some Nakba--. Nakba survivors, by the way, Jon. JON STEWART: And when you refer to the Nakba, I just want people to understand what he's referring. to is, in 1948, when the Israeli state was formed, Palestinians moved off of the land. that they had been living in. They refer to it as the Nakba. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes. JON STEWART: The disaster, or the catastrophe. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah.

They did not move out of there. They were expelled from out of there. JON STEWART: Or were expelled, I apologize. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Because--. because the Israelis were using a euphemism there. They would say, oh, we are going to transfer these people, or they're--. the Arab countries that invaded Israel at that time, they asked them to-- to leave. But I mean, come on. Even if these people moved out of their cities, like my grandparents in 1948, I mean, if I left a place, you know, my city, or my house, because there is an armed conflict, there is-- there is. a lot of going on, of course, I'm under the impression.

that I would be able to go back. But that did not happen for 77 years. My grandparents, Jon, died in the refugee camp. and they were buried in a cemetery close. to the refugee camp. And that cemetery was destroyed by Israel. JON STEWART: And Mosab, and I apologize, you know. So I've been raised on a different narrative, right? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. JON STEWART: And so when we approach these things. from those two different perspectives, that's why, you know, what I wanted to talk to you about was. that idea of what are the stories and the narratives.

that you wanted to express for that. I spent some time in Jordan and there. were, in Jordan, an enormous amount. of Palestinian refugee camps that had, as you said, turned into cities. But they are still not really Jordanians. They're Palestinian refugees. There's also Palestinian camps in Lebanon. There were some, I guess, in Syria.

How many different enclaves? This all stemmed from those in '48 being driven from that area. through the formation of that state. Would that be accurate? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. So, Jon, I mean, I'm listening to you, and you are 100% accurate on that. And tears are not on my eyes. They are inside of my body as I'm listening to you. It is indeed the case of some of my mother's uncles.

who are living currently in Jordan in refugee camps, and they are not citizens of Jordan. And sometimes you think of this as a bad thing, and sometimes, oh, no, it's a good thing. because these are refugees, and they have the right to return. So indeed, there are-- the refugee--. there are refugee camps in five areas after 1948. There are eight refugee camps in the Gaza Strip. There are more refugee camps in the West Bank. And there are refugee camps in Syria, and Jordan, and Lebanon.

And even I think the refugee camps in Lebanon. are the worst of all. JON STEWART: Really? MOSAB ABU TOHA: If you look at videos--. yeah. If you look at videos, people are living in something. like, you know, slums. People-- I mean, they don't have electricity. They don't have enough water. They are struggling, maybe similar to what. people are struggling in Gaza. They don't have the same rights as other Lebanese people. JON STEWART: They are not citizens in those-- they're. not citizens of Lebanon. They're not citizens of Jordan. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. I visited Jordan-- Jon, I'm going.

to tell you a lot of things. JON STEWART: OK. MOSAB ABU TOHA: In Jordan--. I visited Jordan for the first time in my life in 2019. And you know why? Because in 2019, I became a scholars at risk--. a scholar at risk at Harvard University, and I tried to apply for a permit. to go to the American embassy in Jerusalem, which is about 40 miles away from where I lived in Gaza. And I had to apply for a permit. And the Israelis denied me a permit to go to--. to Jerusalem. So I had to move the visa interview to Jordan, which. is about four hours by car from Gaza. if I was allowed to go through Israel.

And I was denied that permit. So I had to go to Egypt, and then from Egypt, to fly to Jordan. And then-- that was in 2019. It was the first time for me, since 2000, to see my aunt, Aliyah Abu Toha, who was married. to-- to my father's cousin and lived in--. in Jordan. So it was the first time for me to see my aunt. in 19 years at the time. And then I go into the refugee camp. where one of-- two of my mother's uncles. lived after 1967, and I met my mother's cousins.

And they told me, they don't have. a Jordanian national number. This means that they cannot apply for jobs there. They could work here and there. But sometimes-- one of my mother's cousins. told me that he proposed to a girl, a Jordanian girl. And when their families knew that he. doesn't have a Jordanian national number, it didn't work. JON STEWART: Mosab, that's--. that's something that I think people might not realize. Many people who live in these refugee camps.

have relatives that are very, very close by to them, but they are unable to get to them. There is-- families have been split throughout this. Give us a sense, because you said something, I thought, very interesting, which was, I went to go to Jordan. I'm a scholar at risk from Harvard University. And you wanted to go there. It's-- how far did you say it was? 40 miles? MOSAB ABU TOHA: From Gaza, where I lived in Beit Lahia,

because I was born in the refugee camp. Then-- I mean-- JON STEWART: Right. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Gaza is very small. Even if I moved to another part, it's maybe 10 miles, five miles away from where I was born. So I was born in the refugee camp. Then at the age of nine-- at the age of 8, in 2000, we moved to live in Beit Lahia, where. some of my family were killed, some of my relatives. were killed. But anyway, this is not the story right now. So I applied for a visa--. for-- for a permit to attend my appointment. at the American embassy in Jerusalem. because there is no Jerusalem-- there.

is no American embassy, or any other embassies, in Gaza. So the closest embassy was in Jerusalem. So I was denied that permit. From where I lived in Beit Lahia to Jerusalem, 70 kilometers, which is 40 Miles. JON STEWART: 40 Miles. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Which is--. it's about an hour by car. When you-- when you travel, it's like--. except if it's in New York City. It would be like-- JON STEWART: Right. Or about three hours by car in New York City. But that makes sense. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes. Exactly.

So I mean, I was denied that permit. And by the way, Jon, for us in Gaza--. JON STEWART: Now did they mention, Mosab, when you get a denial--. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Security reasons. JON STEWART: Oh, security reasons. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Security. They don't tell you, oh, what is. your-- what is the accusation. JON STEWART: They don't want poets. They don't want a poet to go through. Yeah. MOSAB ABU TOHA: It's not only me, it's most of the people in Gaza. They say security reasons. Security. But they don't tell you what your--. what your security background is, what is the problem with you. They don't tell you at all. So, Jon, what happened-- what happened, by the way,

is that I would be taken on a bus. from the Erez Crossing, which is between Gaza and Israel. I would be taken on a bus, along with. a Palestinian security man. He would be-- he would be keeping. our passports as travelers from Gaza to Jerusalem. He would be keeping our passports with him, and the bus would drop us off at the gate of the embassy. We would go inside the embassy, attend the interview, and then we go to the same bus and go. back to Gaza the same day. JON STEWART: This is if you had been approved. If you had been approved-- MOSAB ABU TOHA: Exactly. JON STEWART: That's how the trip would have gone.

OK. So now you haven't been approved. What do you do? MOSAB ABU TOHA: I had to apply for another appointment. at the American embassy in Jordan, and I applied again. OK, I said-- I said, OK, maybe Israel doesn't. want me to go to Jerusalem. Maybe I would do something wrong there. JON STEWART: I'll go to a different American embassy. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. So I applied for a new permit, and that same trip. would take me from Gaza, from the Erez Crossing, to Jordan, to the Allenby Bridge. on the other side of the country. And again, the permit was denied. They did not approve my-- my permit. JON STEWART: What was the-- is that another security reason?

MOSAB ABU TOHA: So I have to apply for a permit to go--. to leave Gaza for Egypt, and from there, fly from Cairo to--. to Amman in Jordan. So it's-- by the way, I was 27 years old. And that was the first time in my life I left Gaza. JON STEWART: The first time at 27. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes. JON STEWART: Your entire life is spent in an area--. give people a sense of--. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes. Gaza is 141 square miles.

It's very small. JON STEWART: And there's two million people living there? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes. I used to teach in Beit Hanoun, which is another city. that Israel decimated. You look at videos--. and by the way, Jon, we'll talk about this later. It's not only the Palestinians who have been. documenting this genocide. It's even the Israelis who are documenting the destruction. from the drones. They are showing you, OK, let's look at Beit Hanoun. It's decimated. Look at Khuza'a, east of Khan Younis. It's not only that we are saying. Israel destroyed everything.

And then they would say-- the Israelis would say, oh, it's hasbara. It's propaganda. This is-- but no, they themselves are. documenting all these things. So I used to teach in Beit Hanoun. I know that city very well. So if you want to travel from North Gaza, Beit Hanoun, to South Gaza, which is Rafah, it wouldn't take you. more than 40 minutes by car. This is from north to south. JON STEWART: And that's the top--. the northern part of Gaza to the southern part of Gaza. 40-minute drive. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. Yeah. I traveled from Beit Hanoun to-- to Rafah,

to the border crossing when I traveled. JON STEWART: And Rafah is the border crossing. that's around the Egypt area, just to give people. a sense of the geography. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. And then if you want to-- in some areas, if you want to travel, you can look. at the map of the Gaza Strip. If you want to travel from East Gaza, for example Shuja'iyya neighborhood, which is also. decimated, and you wanted to go to the beach West of Gaza, sometimes maybe it would take you 15 minutes. This is how wide. JON STEWART: It's that narrow. It's a very thin strip. MOSAB ABU TOHA: It's very narrow. Exactly. So this is the Gaza we have done. And despite the siege--. JON STEWART: And you lived there for your whole life.

up until 27. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I lived there my whole life. And by the way, in many of my poems, my dreams as a child, I. still now--. until now, I'm 32 years old, I still. have dreams of seeing the refugee. camp from a window on a plane. I've never seen Gaza or Palestine. from a window on a plane. I've never seen my country from above. And by the way, there is no airport in Gaza, Jon. There is no airport in Gaza. There is no airport in the West Bank. Israel destroyed the only airport that Gaza had,

which was built in 1999. They destroyed it in 2000, 2001. So that is what that was the only time Palestinians had. an airport, which was in Gaza. Israel destroyed it. JON STEWART: So you-- when you were born there, this was--. Israel still had settlements within Gaza. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes. JON STEWART: This was before, I guess, 2006? MOSAB ABU TOHA: 2005, they left. JON STEWART: 2005, they left Gaza. MOSAB ABU TOHA: They say they gave up Gaza. It is very ridiculous, Jon, and you mentioned that.

It is very ridiculous that to say we "gave up" Gaza. We-- we gave the Palestinians, you. know, a chance to-- come on. What chance did you give the Palestinians to build a state? You-- you did not allow the Palestinians. to build an airport. They did not allow us to build a seaport. And they kept the border crossings closed. So what kind of state are we--. were we supposed to build when Gaza. has been under siege even before Hamas. took control of Gaza? So this is one of the biggest lies. that Israelis and some of their allies keep repeating.

Oh, we gave them a chance. We left Gaza in 2005. But they-- they built tunnels instead. But come on. Even before Hamas existed--. even before Hamas took power in 2006, 2007, Israel did not allow us, again, to build airports, seaports. They did not allow us to even-- by the way, this is shocking, maybe to you as someone who's living in America, we have 5G, right? Mobile connection. JON STEWART: Cell phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Cell phone. Do you know what kind of connection we have in Gaza? 2G.

JON STEWART: I didn't--. I didn't even know 2G-- what is that? Just-- that's a wire with two paper cups? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes. It's-- you can't browse the internet. You can't rely on it. 2G. Israel has been not approving the Palestinians. to get a better than 2G. JON STEWART: Mosab, can you remember a time when there was. an optimism within your life or your community. where you thought, oh, maybe now the boot is being lifted.

Maybe there will be an opportunity. Or has it always--. within your family, when you talk about the future, I mean, you're a poet. You write these beautiful poems. I'm curious where that desire to dream came from? Does it come from the feeling of--. of a certain hopelessness, or were you, in any of these moments, thinking. that the tide had turned for your people and your family?

MOSAB ABU TOHA: Thank you so much. This is really a very great question. In fact, this is devastating for me to think about, because as a poet, I wrote about my experience. of being wounded in an airstrike in 2009. I was 16 years old. JON STEWART: Yes. MOSAB ABU TOHA: And two pieces of shrapnel stayed in my body. And they didn't know that at the time. I was wounded in January 2009. And the two pieces of shrapnel stayed in my head and neck. until August.

JON STEWART: How were you wounded, Mosab, if you don't mind me asking? MOSAB ABU TOHA: So I was-- it was December. 2008 and January 2009. Israel attacked Gaza for, I think, 22 days. That was one of the biggest attacks on Gaza by Israel. And at that time, I was going back from school. I wrote about that in one of my poems. It's called "The Wound.". And I wrote that poem and I documented everything, and I was shocked that I could remember everything. I wrote that poem just three years ago, and I remembered everything that happened in 2009.

Details. Even I remember the smell of the person who was put. next to me in the ambulance. He was-- he didn't have head-- a head at the time. JON STEWART: Oh my Lord. MOSAB ABU TOHA: So I remember the smell. When I started to write, I remembered the smell. I remembered the sounds. I remember the blood dripping from my forehead here. If you can see here, there is a piece of shrapnel here. JON STEWART: Oh, God. Yeah. No, I can see that. MOSAB ABU TOHA: So, Jon, I was walking in that--. in the street in January. I think it was January 19. So I was walking in the street to buy some eggs.

and bread for my sisters--. my little sister, because we were fasting on that day. So I was walking in the city and there. was a group of people gathering in the street. on al-Jalaa street. This is one of the most famous streets in Gaza. It's called al-Jalaa and it connects. Beit Lahia-- some parts of Beit Lahia with Gaza City. So I mean, I saw that there is a gathering. of people in the street, and I stopped. just to see what's happening. Later, later, later, I realized that there was an airstrike. that killed two people, and people.

were gathering, scared to go down in the street to--. to move the bodies, put them in an ambulance. So people were scared to go because Israel. might have stricken again. So I was waiting with those people looking, trying to see. And then there was an airstrike in the middle of the people. In the middle of the gathering. Seven people were killed. Seven people were killed. And I was one of the people who were wounded. And I remember exactly that everyone. fell down after the airstrike. And I was the only one, maybe, who remained standing.

And blood was dripping from my forehead. and there was some pain in my neck. Maybe you can see some-- you know, the people--. here. JON STEWART: Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Here. JON STEWART: I can see. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. So my brother later told me, Mosab, there is a hole in your neck. I couldn't see it. So, Mosab, there is a hole, and you could--. you could fit your finger-- your index finger in it. JON STEWART: Your brother is with you. You guys were--. MOSAB ABU TOHA: No, later when they came to the hospital. JON STEWART: He saw you in the hospital. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. I was on the cot and my brother and father. came to the hospital. And they told me, Mosab, we missed you. We thought you were killed. We started looking for you in the morgue.

But they found me on the cot and I. was relatively good, compared to other people. who lost limbs, et cetera. So Jon, for someone like me, to watch a genocide. and also document it, I'm not only a witness, I am a victim myself. I was about to-- to be killed in that airstrike. JON STEWART: Right. MOSAB ABU TOHA: And it happened many times that there were. airstrikes just close to me. Later, after 2009, I survived many airstrikes.

Our house was bombed in October 2023, just. two weeks after we lifted. And-- and we are lucky because no one was inside the house. Otherwise, my whole family, about 30 people--. about 20 of them were children. Some of them were just months old, my niece, who is now a year and a half living in a tent. right now. So I survived many things, Jon. So whatever I'm talking about, it. comes from an experience of someone. who was born in a refugee camp, and who survived death.

many times, and who lost family members-- first cousins. with whole families. So you asked me about hope. Maybe I didn't answer you. So you asked me about hope. So I'm just telling you this just. to give you a sense that it is-- it is impossible to. feel hope. But the only hope for me, as a human being, as a-- as a poet, as an author, is when I share these words, these stories, these experiences with people like you. and people outside of Gaza who have never. been allowed to go to Gaza.

So that is the sense of hope that I get, is when I share the stories with people, because I want. people to know what life is like in Gaza in the hope. that people will stop that. I mean, when I wrote a poem about my wounds in 2009, I didn't write it for you to shed some tears, and oh, you poor, poor people. We sympathize with you. JON STEWART: Right. Right. Right. MOSAB ABU TOHA: No, I want you to do something. That's the same thing that the Jewish people in the--. during the Holocaust did. They shared their story. They wrote about it in the hope that never again. We have been writing stories, never again.

Please do not-- please free us. We don't want to live under occupation. So that's the hope. That's where I get hope. I get hope because I see people, you know, understanding what's happening, feeling what's happening. But that's not enough. JON STEWART: Well, look, Mosab. Now you're-- you're seeing things--. I don't know if you were aware. There was the letter that was just written to--. to President Trump from the head of the-- the former head. of Mossad, the former head of Shin Bet, which. is the Intelligence Agency domestically for Israel,

all saying, this has to stop. Does-- does that give you--. or do you feel like this is just a repeat of things past. and it won't change anything? What do those changes in the international community. feel like to you? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Jon, I--. I will be honest with you. JON STEWART: OK. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I will tell you how. I feel as a Palestinian refugee, as a victim, as a survivor, as a witness.

This is how I see things. So there are some Israelis who--. who have been outspoken about the Israel's-- the Israeli. crimes against humanity, the killing of people, the wiping out of entire families, the decimation. of cities and refugee camps. So these-- these people have been speaking. out against these things. Yet there are some other people who. may have spoken out not because they feel sympathy. with the Palestinian people. I can't judge. But my understanding is that they want Israel to stop.

that because they don't want to-- the world to see Israel. as that kind of villain. So they care about Israel's reputation. in the outside world. JON STEWART: More than they care about the immorality. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I don't judge. JON STEWART: OK. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I'm not going to judge because only God knows. what is in someone's heart. But this is how I understand things. I think that some Israelis, you know, have been speaking out, like Gideon Levy. and other media people have been--. but they are very, very tiny minority. So they have been speaking because they know that this.

should not happen to any human being, even if it's the Palestinians, even. if they did something wrong. But there are some other Israelis, and even not Israelis, who speak out because this. is harming Israel. It's not that it is harming the Palestinians for 77 years, but this is harming Israel's reputation. They're going to say, look at the Jews, what they are doing. This is increasing anti-Semitism. So they care about how they will look--. JON STEWART: Still self-preservation, right. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Exactly. For me, as a Palestinian, if someone--.

whether it's the former head of Shin Bet, or whatever, whoever they are, if they. want to really-- if they really want the world to see them. as people who care about other people, the Palestinian people. in this case, they should call for an end. to the Israeli occupation, for the freedom. of the Palestinian people. We need to enjoy equal rights like anyone in this world. JON STEWART: Is that--. it feels like it's--. it seems like everybody's left it entirely up to Israel. And maybe that's the issue.

What is your sense on the ground. from Palestinian refugees of the Saudis, Egypt, the Jordanian government, other governments. in the area that are allied with the Palestinian cause, it would seem, from their statements, but are very passive when it comes to--. I don't understand why no one has stepped in to--. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. JON STEWART: To draw a line. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Yeah, Jon, this is unbelievable. It's very shameful that we are-- we are watching, you know, the genocide being carried out for 22 months, documented by both the Palestinians who are in Gaza. and some of the Israeli soldiers. who are documenting their crimes, as they blow up the cities, and counting, and say, oh, this is a gift for my daughter on her birthday, [INAUDIBLE] boom, destroy a whole neighborhood. So it's very shameful that we are watching this while--. so some other countries, who joined Palestine,

and in this case, Egypt with-- with Gaza, unable to do anything while, for example, a missile was coming from Yemen. You find another Arab country like Jordan. intercepting that missile, while no one. has been intercepting any of the bombs. that Israel has been dropping on Palestinian people. on tents in the streets. JON STEWART: Mosab, do you have a sense of why? MOSAB ABU TOHA: You say that these-- these Arab countries. are allied with the Palestinian people. I mean, people are allied with the Palestinian people. JON STEWART: That's what they say. MOSAB ABU TOHA: But governments are--.

I don't think governments are, because if they were, they would do everything in their power to stop. Israel from doing that. Because, I mean, Gaza--. Jon, Gaza has three neighbors, the sea, Israel, and Egypt. So there is no other country to-- to flee to. JON STEWART: And Egypt has closed the border as well. Is it because, Mosab, are they-- or is it they're. afraid of Hamas as well? What is-- what's their rationale for--. MOSAB ABU TOHA: What is Hamas? I don't know, afraid of Hamas doing what?

JON STEWART: Or whatever they refer to as--. MOSAB ABU TOHA: What does Hamas have even? What-- what kinds of weapons does Hamas have? JON STEWART: Well, at this point--. MOSAB ABU TOHA: So here, it's similar to what's. happening to-- what's been happening. in Jordan and Lebanon. These countries do not want to--. to have Palestinian refugees for good and bad reasons. They don't want to-- to be responsible for another plight. of the Palestinian people, for them to live in Egypt, and to move them out of their homeland, which is, in this case, Gaza. Even though 70%--.

Jon, 70% of the population of Gaza. are refugees and their descendants. I am a descendant. I am a grandchild of refugees from Jaffa. So I'm a refugee. And that's something that Israel hated. JON STEWART: So your family was from Jaffa? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes. It is the name of my daughter, Jaffa. I have two sons and one daughter. JON STEWART: Give people a sense. Jaffa is in the North of Israel? Is that-- where is that geographically? MOSAB ABU TOHA: It's--. it's in the middle of the coast. JON STEWART: The middle of the coast? OK. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. JON STEWART: So that's where your family lived before? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes. That's one reason why my grandparents went to Shati.

"Shati" means beach, by the way. Gaza is on the beach, and the Shati refugee. camp is exactly on the beach. So that's why my grandfather and one of his brothers. went to live in Shati, because this is where they. used to live on the beach. JON STEWART: And they had a beautiful life there. MOSAB ABU TOHA: They did. JON STEWART: They lived there for generations. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I never met my grandfather, Jon. I was born after he died. And I don't know where his grave is. I don't know his date of birth.

JON STEWART: Wow. MOSAB ABU TOHA: There are so many things. that I want to know about my family. who lived in Jaffa just a few--. I mean, maybe an hour and a half away from Gaza. JON STEWART: Right. MOSAB ABU TOHA: There is another shocking thing, Jon. I have never been to the West Bank, which is considered the Palestinian territory, right? JON STEWART: Right. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I'm from Gaza. I've never been to the West Bank. JON STEWART: They're not connected. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I don't know people in the West Bank. I can't talk about the experiences of people. in Ramallah, in Nablus, in Hebron. Although I see their videos, but I don't know how they live. exactly, except from the news.

And the same thing. They don't-- they have never been to Gaza. JON STEWART: And so it's a people divided through that. MOSAB ABU TOHA: It's devastating, Jon. It's devastating. JON STEWART: Mosab, in--. in a perfect world, is there a contiguous--. how do we extract ourselves? And I know that the-- look, you're in the middle of it. And I know it's not fair to look to you. and say, hey, what's the way out of this thing, other than--. but it feels like without the international community.

stepping in to separate two combatants. and creating some barrier so that two societies can flourish. separately, which seems like the only way. to do this at this point, is there any other way to do this? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes. Yes, there is one way. JON STEWART: OK, beautiful. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Which is when the world, not. only leaders, but also media people, when they start. to care about the security of the Palestinian people. the same way they care about the security of Israel. JON STEWART: Right.

MOSAB ABU TOHA: So tell me, tell me. why do the Palestinian people not have an army? JON STEWART: Well, I assume it's because Israel does not. allow them to have an army. So they have a guerrilla kind of outfit. MOSAB ABU TOHA: So who's going to protect. the Palestinian people when they. are living under occupation. For example, in the West Bank, not in Gaza, the Israeli. settlers attack Palestinians. JON STEWART: No. Mosab, it's-- look, it's an interesting question. In the West-- so here's the question in the West. Doesn't Israel have a right to exist. and doesn't Israel have a right to defend itself?

And everybody, yes and yes. MOSAB ABU TOHA: OK. JON STEWART: But I imagine the exact same question. can be applied to-- don't the Palestinians. have a right to exist? Yes. And don't the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves? Yes. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes, exactly. JON STEWART: Well, now, OK. Now we're cooking with gas here. So what do you do with that? Then that's just a recipe for incessant conflict, one sided, because one side has very powerful weapons. that the United States provides, and the other side does not.

So it just seems inevitable--. not to be horrible about this, but inevitable. that they are going to continue to force. Palestinians into smaller and smaller areas. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. Jon, Israel is not the only one responsible for the catastrophe. of the Palestinian people 77 years ago. It is the whole world, even the UN. Even the UN. Even the UN. OK, I'm not attacking the UN, but-- but I'm going.

to say that the UN--. JON STEWART: Attack away. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. So the UN-- by the way, Israel was admitted to the United. Nations as a full member in 1949, just one year. after it was founded. Palestine. Is it a member of the United Nations? JON STEWART: It is not. No. MOSAB ABU TOHA: It is not. Why? Why is Palestine not a part of the United Nations, even though, Jon, for your information, Palestine--. in the United Nations, the Palestinian mission there, on April--.

I'm going to read this for you. On April 18, the United States vetoed a Security Council. resolution that would have recommended. Palestine's admission to full UN membership. This action effectively blocked Palestine's application. for full member status, which had been submitted in 2011. Palestine submitted an application. to become a full member of the United Nations in 2011, and the United States, just a few months ago, vetoed that--.

that Security Council resolution. So why-- I can't understand. And even other countries, like Canada, like France, like Britain, they recognized Israel, even though, Jon, this is very important to highlight for-- for everyone, based on the partition plan, the Jewish state should have. had 50% of the Palestinian land, even. though the Jewish people--. in 1947, when the partition plan was passed, they only had about 6% of the land,

while the Palestinian people, who had all of the land, they were given 40--. at least 43, because Jerusalem was. under international authorities. So after 1948, after the war-- the catastrophe in 1948, Israel occupied you know how much? 78% of the land. JON STEWART: Right. MOSAB ABU TOHA: So despite that, even though Israel was occupying more. than it was given during the--.

I mean, based on the partition plan, it was recognized by other countries, and it was admitted, you know, as a full member. of the United Nations. JON STEWART: Do you think that was because. of-- of Western sympathies? And, you know, look. There's a-- what I find so kind of hard. here is there's a Palestinian history. and there's an Israeli history. And the two of them don't really intersect the way. that the-- the different people describe the unfairness.

of the situation. Or Israel would say, no, we wanted to live in peace. and then everybody attacked us. And so that's why we had to-- and we. have to protect ourselves. Again, I feel like we've left two. people in very difficult situations. to fend for themselves. One of them was supported by the West, and armed, and became a powerful army, and the other. was abandoned by everybody. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah.

JON STEWART: It's hard to not see the Palestinians as having. been abandoned by everybody. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. Interesting point. I have-- I have my own say here. JON STEWART: Please. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. I respect you. And I know, you know, the--. the background of the Jewish people, but maybe some. questions we should ask. So did the Palestinian people play any role in the Holocaust? In the-- in the suffering of the Jewish people in Europe? JON STEWART: Right. Right. MOSAB ABU TOHA: My grandparents, when they were swimming in the sea in Jaffa,

did they know even-- maybe any-- anything about what. was happening in Germany? And--. JON STEWART: You're saying they--. they faced a penalty and a punishment for something. they had no part of. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. And by the way, some-- some Jewish people. were living in Palestine even before the first. Zionist Congress. And I think it was in 1879. So there were some Jewish people. who were living in Palestine. And no one of them, you know, said, oh, we're going to create a state. So the Jewish people in Europe were faced with--.

with horrific, horrific experiences. in Europe, not in Palestine, not in Gaza, not in Jaffa. My grandparents and everyone, they. did not play any role in the suffering of the Jewish people. in Europe. I mean, thousands of Miles away. So of course, everyone should sympathize. with the Jewish people. But it should not be on the expense--. at the expense of the Palestinian people. And by the way, Jon, Jaffa as a city, based on the partition plan, it should. have been part of the Arab-- the Palestinian state.

So no one is denying that the Jewish people. have gone through a Holocaust. And this is-- this is the most heinous. war crime in the 20th century. But what about the Nakba? JON STEWART: Sure. MOSAB ABU TOHA: The catastrophe of the Palestinian people that. not only resulted in the killing of some Palestinians, but also in the dispossession and the expulsion. of 700,000 Palestinians, a problem. that continues until today. So let's say the Palestinian people, no one sympathizes with them. And even if they sympathize with the Palestinian people,

what is this going to bring about? JON STEWART: But that's--. part of it, Mosab, is-- it's the narrative. You know, we've been raised in a narrative. that Israel is a necessary good. We've been raised in Schindler's. List, and the movie Munich, and we all watched the--. the terrorism of the early '70s. And the sympathies of the United States, and of many people, and I include. myself within that, because that's how I was raised, was--. the narrative was, this is a good, an unqualified good,

and the other is an unqualified bad. And that's the narrative that everybody has been. fighting against since then. And so as I watch what's unfolding, you have to realize now, this is all coming as a head. scratching oh, everything has-- has changed.

Even though it hasn't, especially in the minds. of those that have suffered through the Nakba. and through these other injustices. This is not something that I think. has been visible for a lot of different reasons. A, I don't think people wanted to see it. B, I don't think you have the same western journalist access. It's been restricted.

And so I think people right now are--. you've had to endure this for your 30-some years. Your family has had to endure it for generations. Unfortunately, many of us are just waking up to it. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I know it is the narrative. that many people, especially in this country, have been raised on. But this is not my problem. JON STEWART: Hell, I planted a tree there.

That was the whole thing. You know, when you're raised as a Jewish kid in the United. States, the first thing you do is you. got to plant a tree in Israel. Apparently, like no trees. I may have to go get my tree back, Mosab. MOSAB ABU TOHA: You plant a tree. in the place of an orange tree that my grandparents. planted centuries ago. JON STEWART: Right. But that part hasn't been-- that. wasn't-- that wasn't explained in Hebrew school. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I understand. Yeah. JON STEWART: And I'm sure there's things that aren't. explained-- listen, and I don't want to oversimplify. and suggest that, like, oh, look, armed insurrection,

and revolutionaries, and Hamas, and the Islamists, like, that's also incredibly cruel. October 7, incredibly cruel. Horrific. Just give back the hostages. All of that stuff still applies. But I think it's important to hear that broader perspective. from someone like yourself who's. been raised in this tragedy. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. So, Jon, you know, what I'm sharing with you, it's not only my opinion on what's happening,

or what should be happening. It is my story. It is me. So people talk about Palestine. So for example, you bring guests, and others bring guests to talk about Palestine. But what is-- just like Peter said, what is equally important. is to bring people from there, because these people. are the story. We are talking-- so people like you and others who are here, they don't have--. I wish you could go to Gaza, and meet. people, and talk to them. I mean, people in the media talk about Palestinians, about. the story.

JON STEWART: But they don't talk to people from there. MOSAB ABU TOHA: It is equally important. I think it's more important to talk to the story itself. One time, I was asked, are you going. to tell your children these stories. that you are telling us. I told them, my children are the story. In my poetry, I talk about my children. One time in 2000-- in May 2021, when Israel attacked Gaza. for 11 days, I was filming. It's on my phone. And later, I wrote a poem about my son throwing a blanket. over my daughter, you know, and telling her,

you can hide from the bombs, because there was some bombing. in the background. So he threw a blanket on her. He said to her, you can hide now. So my-- my children, and me also, we are the story. So the story should be the one who is talking. I don't like--. I mean, that could be the case in the past 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, when people come to talk. about what they see in Palestine, what they hear from there. But it is now the time for the people from there.

who lived the experience, for the story itself to speak up. JON STEWART: Mosab, is that one of the hardest things? Because what you see in a lot of Western media is, oh, that's not what happened. That's an exaggeration. Oh, they're not starving. That's not actually a starving child. That child has cystic fibrosis. And you're like, well, I think that child has cystic fibrosis. and is starving. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes. JON STEWART: Is that one of the more difficult things, or more. frustrating things, because now that you're.

not enduring it, being in the States, to see that narrative? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. Jon, I'm talking to first-degree family members. JON STEWART: Right. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I talked to my parents--. JON STEWART: Who are still there? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes. I talked to my-- my uncle, Ibrahim, who had a bachelor's degree in English and French literature. And he was talking to me on the phone back from the Zikim. aid crossing. And he described to me what is an apocalyptic scene. He told me he went back home--.

to the tent. Sorry, not home. He went back home. He went back to the tent, to his wife and their two. children, Naim and Seja, who lived with me in the school. shelter before I left. He told me, I saw two things, two people. One of them was shot in the arm and he. was carrying-- he was carrying his arm with his other hand. And then there was another old man. who was shot in the abdomen. And that man took off his shirt to shut the wound. It's apocalyptic, Jon.

And I post videos on my X every day of people. Yesterday, I posted a video of someone who was filming. his cousin, Haitham Abu-warda. He was filming the people on the ground. after they were shot. And other people-- you think most people, you know, would stop and carry those to the hospital. There are no hospital where the Erez crossing is coming from. So people would continue going to the aid trucks. to get whatever they could. So that man was filming at least five, seven people. And then on his camera, you watched it, and you listen to him, oh, that's Haitham, my cousin.

That's his cousin who was killed. JON STEWART: Oh, God. MOSAB ABU TOHA: So people in Gaza, my uncle and my relatives, tell me that they are starving. They are telling me, Mosab--. my uncle's wife told me that she. was 70 kilograms before the genocide and now she is 40. She is 40 kilograms. So she lost 40 kilograms of her weight. So I'm going, no, no, no. You are-- you are not starving. It's still good. It's still good. You know what?

Hamas is stealing your aid. People are starving. Let the aid end. Let it end with-- with large quantities. And we know that Hamas is not stealing, because Israel. does not have any evidence. This is what the Israeli generals and officials--. JON STEWART: Look. Even if they were stealing some of the aid, I think you have to get the--. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I mean, even if. Exactly, even if. JON STEWART: It's-- it's a moral imperative to get--. to get food in there. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Exactly. And by the way, Israel is occupying Gaza. So they are responsible for providing.

Hamas is not governing Gaza. Hamas is not an official entity. It's not a state. Even if they do some things that are wrong, they do not represent the Palestinian people. But whatever Israel is doing and its army, it represents Israel. And there is something, Jon, I have to say, with all due respect to everyone. I have so many Jewish friends, you know? My editor, my literary agent. JON STEWART: You don't have to--. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Even my literary agent. JON STEWART: Mosab, you don't have to couch it. You don't have to couch it in anything. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I mean, some of the most amazing people I met.

in my life are Jewish people. I'm-- I'm honest. My editor at The New Yorker is--. JON STEWART: Yes, yes, yes. MOSAB ABU TOHA: My literary agent. JON STEWART: Yes. MOSAB ABU TOHA: The lady with whom I. stay when I go to Manhattan--. JON STEWART: I understand. You don't-- you don't have to-- you don't have to qualify it. But go ahead. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I love the Jewish people so much. So it hurts me when Israel--. JON STEWART: Well, you're related. You're cousins. We're all-- MOSAB ABU TOHA: Exactly. JON STEWART: I'm related to you. You're related to me. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yes, we are. We are related. And even if we are not Jewish and Palestinian, even if we are just random human beings,

we all come from the same father. JON STEWART: We're related by the human lineage. Yes. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Exactly. JON STEWART: I understand. MOSAB ABU TOHA: So, Jon, what's happening here. is that when Israel, you know, says, we are the Jewish people. We are protecting the Jewish people. So it means that what they are committing in Gaza. right now is--. is by the name of the Jewish people. JON STEWART: Yeah. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Right? Because when they say, oh, I'm protecting the Jewish people, I'm going to expel 700,000 Palestinians. and turn Gaza into refugee camps, and then.

destroy the refugee camps. So these are Jewish soldiers. But for me, as a Palestinian, I know-- as a Palestinian, I know that these are not only Jewish. These are Israelis. They are Zionists. For me, I'm not going to say, oh, this Israeli soldier is. like Jon, who is in New Jersey, and taking care of his family, and opening the eyes of people on what's happening. in America and outside. So I'm not going to fall into that trap. But by what they are doing, they. are telling everyone in the world, look,

we are Jewish people. Look what we are doing. We are cutting aid. Jon, I named it a genocide. You can go to my Facebook page. I named it a genocide from the fifth day. I said to the world, stop the genocide. I did not wait for Amnesty International. to call it a genocide. I didn't wait for B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights. organization, to call it a genocide. I knew what a genocide is because I. knew what Israel was capable of doing, and they are doing it. When they said, we are going to cut off. food, medicine, water, these are human animals,

you should leave. Netanyahu said on October 12--. that was an interview I did with Democracy Now! That same day, Netanyahu said to people in Gaza, people. of Gaza, you should leave. JON STEWART: You knew at that point. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Exactly. So October 12, he said, you should leave. You understand that if you don't leave, they are going to say, you see? We told them to leave. We are going to kill them. It means that they are Hamas. These are terrorists. So I knew--. I knew what they were going to do without them doing it. The genocide, Jon, is not about what Israel is doing. The genocide is about what they are doing,

and what they are going to do. And they are doing it for 22 months. You haven't-- you don't have to wait until someone. finishes with the genocide. JON STEWART: Are there any levers of influence. within Gaza for these--. I imagine it's-- it's operating a little bit like, you know, Mad Max. That it's people are just trying to survive. And then there's some armed, I would assume, guerrilla-type gangs, and things like that. But is there any--. if you were to ask your family, other than, look,

we need the international aid. Do they even think about the politics of it? Like, well, if we could get pressure on Israel to do this, or if we could somehow leverage pressure on Hamas to do this, or do they just think, I just need food, and water, and medicine for my children, and leave. me out of the rest of this? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. I mean, people in Gaza, Jon, want to live. I mean, they are so tired. JON STEWART: Sure. As everyone does. MOSAB ABU TOHA: People in Gaza are really tired.

I mean, people--. I hear it from my relatives in Gaza. They say, I wish I could just die today because I'm. going to die anyway. I don't want to die--. I mean, for example, by the way, my father-in-law, my wife's father, was killed on Sunday. He was wounded in an airstrike while on the way. to the Zikim aid crossing. He was hit with other people by an Israeli drone missile. And two pieces of shrapnel pierced his head, landed in the middle of his brain, and doctors couldn't operate. And he died on Sunday.

That was just five days-- three days ago. JON STEWART: I'm so sorry, Mosab. That's--. MOSAB ABU TOHA: So, for example, my uncle, I call him Uncle Jahlil, my father-in-law. So if all-- I mean, it devastates me. So just imagine he survived all this time from October 7. until three days ago. So he survived all of this time. He survived the starvation. He went back to his house. He's a strawberry farmer. They destroyed his strawberry farm. They destroyed his house. So just imagine surviving about 650 days,

and then to die when two pieces of shrapnel pierced your head. So people sometimes say, oh, I wish I had died, you know, on October 7 or October 8. Why should I have survived all this time. just to be killed like that? People want this to end. And about the ceasefire, there was a ceasefire in January, and Israel broke it. There was a chance that the Israeli hostages, who. must be released today unconditionally, along.

with the Palestinian hostages. Everyone-- I mean, no-- no one should be kept hostage. JON STEWART: You were held in captivity for a while as well, weren't you, in Israel? MOSAB ABU TOHA: I was abducted from my wife and kids. for three days. And I mean, I didn't have anything on myself. And because of the international pressure, I was released. But Jon, I was sexually harassed. I had to undress, remove all my clothes in front. of three Israeli soldiers. JON STEWART: Right. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Do you call this anything that.

has to do with sexual harassment, when you force. someone to remove all their clothes in front. of three Israeli soldiers? No one talks about these things. I'm not called a hostage. Because I'm Palestinian, I was detained. I was arrested. But this is not how you arrest someone. This is how you-- this is not how you detain someone. You do not blindfold them. You do not handcuff them. You do not force them to remove all their clothes. And even they forced me to turn around, even to-- to see all my body from different directions. And then I was taken to a detention center,

and I was beaten in the face, and beaten in my stomach. And I was denied medical treatment. I told the Israelis--. when they brought us in front of an Israeli doctor, we were still blindfolded and handcuffed. I told them I have some pain in my nose. after I was kicked in my nose. And I have pain in my ear, which. I had-- on which I had a surgery in the US in 2020. during COVID. So I told him, I want some medicine.

I want painkiller. And they didn't give me anything. They just asked me about my name, my phone. number, my date of birth. That's the question by the doctor that we had to see, my phone number, my address in Gaza, my birth date, my ID number--. my ID card number. And then I told them, I have pain in my nose. I have pain in my ear. Can you give me any pain? No. They just put me back in the detention center. So they-- and they were feeding us, I think, maybe a toast, or maybe half one and some--.

a spoonful of yogurt, and maybe three, four drops of water. And when we used the toilet, someone. had to pick us from the place. He's one of us, but he's not blindfolded and handcuffed. He would be taking care of all of us, about 100 people. He would take us to the toilet and. there was no toilet paper, no water to clean after yourself. So I lived-- I lived there for three days. Only three days. JON STEWART: Look, you're a man of literature.

You're a poet. You're a human being. You're a Palestinian. You're a father. You're a husband. How are you not consumed with absolute rage? It's so hard to hear any of this and not think this is. a nuclear reactor of rage, and anger, and-- and resentment that--.

that I--. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. JON STEWART: How do you manage that in your own body? MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. I stick to my humanity, Jon. This is the only weapon I have. JON STEWART: Wow. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I keep my humanity in my heart, in myself. I try to be as supportive to my family-- to my wife. and three kids here, and also my family, and relatives, and friends in Gaza. I support them with everything I can. I call them. How are you? How are you doing? How was your day?

People want to talk to us. People want to talk to us. I talk to them. And my father-in-law, God bless his soul, when he takes. the phone and when I talk to him, he starts to make up stories. He just wants to talk to me. So I try to be as supportive as possible. People in Gaza have not only been bombed by Israel, have not lost--. not only have they lost their houses. and they were bombed in their tents, but also no one is listening to them. I mean, it is different when a Palestinian journalist. does an interview with someone who lost his son.

When someone outside of Gaza, a white man. like you with-- with beautiful eyes, when you talk to them, people would be relieved. Oh, I'm talking to someone from America. He's going to tell Biden and Trump about our--. our suffering. And of course, of course, he will do something, you know? When he tells the story, these people will. change their minds and hearts. Israel has been denying the access. of international journalists.

And this is another devastating thing. for people like you and others, to see. things with their own eyes. Because it gives us hope when we see our stories out. But we need to see people outside from Gaza--. outside of Gaza. Jon, I was in Gaza all my life, except for the time. I was here to study and do my fellowship. The only outsiders I saw in Gaza. were foreign journalists during the Israeli assaults. and some human rights activists, or maybe attorneys.

who came to Gaza, maybe, to talk to families. But visitors like you, maybe someone who wants--. has a friend. Oh, my Mosab is my friend. I want to visit him in Gaza. Or I want to see his family in the refugee camp, or maybe I want to do a documentary with him. I've never seen anyone who said, oh. You know, I'm going to visit here. Just maybe I want to swim in the sea. I want to see the strawberries. I want to see your father-in-law, how he takes care of his strawberry farm. And another shocking thing, I have never seen a passenger.

plane in the sky over Gaza--. in my life in Gaza. The only planes I saw in my life. are helicopters, drones, F-16s. I swear to God. You can ask anyone in Gaza. And nowadays, to be honest, because I'm an honest guy, there is a new kind of planes that people are seeing. The aid planes. JON STEWART: Just dropping aid on people. Boxes. MOSAB ABU TOHA: I mean, the amount of--. of aid that these planes are dropping. doesn't amount to maybe one truck or two trucks.

It's helpless, Jon. And these countries, with all--. I don't know. I mean, I don't want to-- with all due respect. But I mean, these countries are fooling everyone. They say, oh, we-- we flew some planes. We are dropping food and blah, blah, blah. This is not doing--. making any difference. JON STEWART: No. I think when-- when access is finally granted, I think the world is going to be utterly shocked. MOSAB ABU TOHA: We did have some glimpse into what's. happening in Gaza from the aid planes,

when some of the journalists took photos and videos. We did see. So we are not lying. This is not propaganda. We are not Hamas. We are not terrorists. We are not lying when we said Israel. is destroying neighborhoods. Every day, I was posting that Israel is blowing up houses. in Khan Younis, in Shuja'iyya, in Beit Lahia, and Beit Hanoun. That was not propaganda. This is what we saw in our eyes. And this is what the cameras, the western media. journalists, uncovered. It was true. Everything the Palestinian people said, it was true.

When we posted about the-- the 15 medics. who were killed in Rafah in March. JON STEWART: Right. It was true. Right. MOSAB ABU TOHA: We were not lying, Jon. Jon, we were not lying. JON STEWART: They found the video. And unfortunately, now, the Palestinian people are--. are left without any agency and left helpless. And there's sort of an idea here. like, oh, well, you could just get them to release this. and everything would be done. I don't think people understand just what you guys that are. living there have been through, and the opportunities to have.

any agency over your lives. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. JON STEWART: At all. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. Jon, I think what the Palestinian people. need immediately is international protection. JON STEWART: That's-- that's what I don't understand, Mosab. What happened to international peacekeeping? What happened to just--. why is Israel in charge of this? This makes no sense to me. This is the one thing that I just can't wrap my head around.

Get an international--. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Are you suggesting that Israel. has more power than Israel? [LAUGHS] JON STEWART: Right. I mean, I don't understand how--. MOSAB ABU TOHA: You're an anti-Semite. No, no, you are an anti-Semite. JON STEWART: I've been called worse. I've been called worse. MOSAB ABU TOHA: You can't suggest-- no, you. can't suggest that Israel has control. over international decisions. JON STEWART: Right. Well, that's a different--. but that is the part that's really vexing to me. and confusing, is how there isn't-- and the United. States plays a huge role here. Let's not-- the United States' inability to--.

we sell them weapons and then tell them to go easy with it. I used to say, it's like your drug dealer. selling you a bunch of cocaine and then going, like, but don't stay up all night. Like, it's-- boy, it's hard to find your way through. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. I want to say this thing. So when Israel was attacked on October 7. and some crimes were committed against civilians, this is very clear, what did the world do?

They said that Israel has the right to defend itself. But has anyone in the world, before October 7, and even after October 7, did anyone. say the Palestinian people have the right. to defend themselves against the invading and. the genocidal Israeli army? What they are committing is a genocide, not according. to me, but so many other human rights. organizations and Israeli genocide. and Holocaust scholars. So it's not something that-- a word that we are throwing here. and there although I described it. based on what I saw in Gaza at the time, and what I knew that Israel was going to do.

So when Israel was attacked on October 7, what did the world do? Did they only say that Israel has the right to defend itself. and did they stop at that? No. Biden visited Israel. Tony Blinken visited Israel many times. The United States sent so many weapons to Israel. OK, now let's talk about the Palestinian people. The Palestinians have been under occupation. for 77 years in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The Palestinians have been attacked militarily by Israel. at least for 22 months. Now let's say some countries said the Palestinian people.

have the right to protection. OK. Did they do anything about that? JON STEWART: No. MOSAB ABU TOHA: No. OK, Israel committed war crimes. For example, let me read this. On July 13, 2025, just a month from now, Israel bombed a group of people collecting water, killing 10 civilians, including six children. That was in the news, by the way. When mainstream finally spoke out, Israel dismissed it as a technical error. On July 17, four days after that, Israel bombed a church,

killing three Christians, because they were Christians. and because this was the church the late Pope. Francis used to call daily before he passed away. Israel issued a statement calling it a stray ammunition. On March 23, Israel forces murdered 15 medics, we. talked about that, in Rafah. At first, they claimed-- the Israelis. claimed that the ambulances were suspicious. But after the video emerged on April 5,

showing clearly-marked emergency vehicles under fire, Israel walked back its narrative and it said--. calling it a case of professional failures. And there are many other cases, like the World Central Kitchen. Also, they bombed al-Maghazi refugee camp, I think, late in 2024. And they said, we used the wrong ammunition. They said, we used the wrong ammunition. So what accountability? JON STEWART: Listen. One mistake is a mistake. A series of mistakes is a strategy.

And I think what you're saying is, these types of crimes. are a strategy. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. JON STEWART: That it's the strategy that's being. deployed against Palestinians. MOSAB ABU TOHA: But Israel still gets more weapons. and it is still covered up by the United States. by vetoing many, many UN resolutions, drafts, that call for a release of the hostages. and a ceasefire. JON STEWART: It's funny that you. say inside, the thing that protects you. is remaining your humanity. But it's hard to feel this situation as anything.

but an utter failure of humanity to--. to step in and end what is an absolute disgusting display, and horrific. And it's just-- it's hard not to view it. as an utter failure of our shared. sense of purpose and being. And I'm terribly sorry for what your family is going through.

and the conditions that have created this for you. MOSAB ABU TOHA: If I can, just want to mention one last thing. JON STEWART: Please. MOSAB ABU TOHA: You know, just to honor the memory. of some of my relatives who were. killed in the past 22 months. In two airstrikes, Israel killed. more than 50 people from my-- from my family, my mother's family. One airstrike in October 2023, Israel.

killed 30 members of my family, my father's. cousin, his wife, and their children, and their grandchildren. 30 people. Entire family except for two survivors. One of the these 30 people were my first cousin, Tahrir. She was killed with her disabled husband. and their five children, all of them under 15. In another airstrike, a separate airstrike. in October 2024, a year from that, Israel carried out an airstrike on my mother's aunt's house.

That aunt was my great aunt, Fatima Dibis, who I used to call my grandmother, because my grandmother passed away. when I was seven years old. So my great aunt was killed, along with 14. of her family members. One of them was a seven-year-old first cousin. of mine. So, Jon, this genocide that I'm talking about. is not only carried out against the Palestinian people. as a people, but it's also carried.

out against a population, 70% of whom are refugees. And we talked about that. That's another level of the genocide. There is a very, very important level of the genocide that I. rarely hear anyone talking about, which is that Israel is wiping out entire families. So maybe, you know, you are living, I think, in New Jersey or New York. You live with your wife and children, and maybe your father is living in another state. Your uncle is living, maybe, in Europe, I don't know.

But in Gaza, when a family--. when a family house is bombed, it means. a whole generation is gone. I just want to give you one example that the western media. did not cover. I talked to one of the survivors of a massacre that. was carried out in December 2023, and that's called Jauhar family. Maybe it's shocking, maybe it's not. But around 80 people were killed in that airstrike.

So the thing is it's not only that 80 people were killed. But I want to show you who the 80 people were. I made a family tree here. Jon, this is the grandfather. This is the grandfather. These are his children. They were killed with their wives. and these are her name-- their names. They were killed-- they were killed with their children. and their grandchildren.

Then the grandfather himself, he had another brother. who was already dead. But the grandfather, he was--. he wasn't alive. But this brother of the grandfather, he. lost two sons, and their children, and their grandchildren here. And that's the last grandfather. So three grandparents. These are about 80 people. So the first one I talked to, his name is Anas.

I talked to him on the phone two weeks ago, just, you know, to help me make the family tree. And you know what he told me? He was going out to buy some food for his kids. That was December. There were some shops at that time. And he told me, Mosab, I was out buying some--. trying to find some food for my wife and kids. Someone told him, there is an airstrike in your neighborhood. And then he-- he started running to the neighborhood,

and he found the two houses of the family. leveled to the ground. He lost his wife and their two children, along with the whole family. This is one. Number two. He told me they were able to bury only 50 out of the 80. So 30 people have been under the rubble since December 2023, including his wife and two children. So that's one of his dreams, to go back and find whatever. remained of the bodies of his wife and children, to bury them. Jon, these are stories-- and this.

is only one story, by the way. I swear to God, I have other stories. that I talk to people there just to confirm. the names and the ages. These are mostly children. Mostly children. So I met two girls in Egypt. I evacuated Gaza in December 2023. So I lived in an apartment in Egypt and I don't know. There was a miracle, because in November, Israel bombed a house in Nuseirat on November 26,

or maybe--. I think it was 23rd. I'm not sure about the date. I forgot. I was not prepared to talk about this story. So Israel bombed the house where a friend of mine, a fellow teacher, was staying with his mother. and father, his wife and children, and four sisters. In that airstrike, the father, the mother, my friend, Ismail,

were killed. Ismail was killed along with his two children. His wife survived. She is still in Gaza. Two sisters were killed, two sisters survived. When I was in Gaza, I met the two sisters, because it was about the time I was released. and I went to the hospital to see a doctor for my wounds. And I saw the two sisters just freshly. surviving the airstrike. I left Gaza in December, and it was. a miracle, because the two sisters. were evacuated to Egypt. And they happened to be staying in a hospital.

just two blocks away from where I was staying. And I met them there at the hospital, and they became family. One thing they told me, Jon, they told me, brother Mosab, do you have any--. any friends who could help us go back to Gaza? That was January 2024. Do you have any way to send us back to Gaza? Because they were recovering. And they said, we want to go back to Gaza. I told them, why? Why do you want to leave Gaza? People are struggling to leave. People are paying money to leave.

And they both told me-- one of them is a pharmacist, the other is a teacher, Isra and Ala Abu Robin. They are in Egypt right now. Tell them, why do you want to go back to Gaza? And they told me. They told me, the body of our Father, the body of Ismail, and a 16-year-old sister. were still under the rubble. And we want to go back, and dig through, and bury them. This is what--. I was shocked.

I was-- and their bodies, until today, or whatever remains. of them, are under the rubble. And I have a long poem in my collection Forest of Noise. called "Under The Rubble.". This is maybe the expression, the phrase. that I say most of the time. Everything is under the rubble, Jon. People are under the rubble. Our books are under the rubble. Our clothes are under the rubble. Now our cities are under the rubble.

JON STEWART: Mosab, thank you for sharing your witness, your testimony, and your, above all, humanity, with us on this. I can't tell you how much I wish. for your pain, and their pain, and the pain in the region. to be alleviated in some measure as a testament. to humanity being worthwhile as a species to be protected.

But thank you, and I'm terribly sorry that this conversation. had to take place. MOSAB ABU TOHA: Yeah. Thank you so much, Jon. And I pray for peace. And more importantly, for justice. for the Palestinian people, for the plight that they have been. going through for decades. And I pray that there is a power that's. going to stop all of this. But I'm sure that this power is not--.

it's not coming from the outer space. I hope that the international community would step. in and send a peace force--. JON STEWART: You'd think. MOSAB ABU TOHA: A protection force, whatever it is, to protect the civilian population, the people. I mean, 70% of these people are refugees. 50% are children. JON STEWART: It makes no sense, Mosab. MOSAB ABU TOHA: What is more reason? Even the people who try to go to Gaza on the boats, they were taken from the sea. These people were going to Gaza, not to Israel. Why do you take these people on the boats, Hanzala and Madeline?

Why do you take them from the sea to Israel? They were not going to Israel. They were going to Gaza. So even the civilians, the individuals who tried to do. something, they were taken. They were kidnapped from their boats and taken to Israel. These people did not want to go to Israel. They wanted to go to the people in Gaza, see them, help. them, whatever. Every means have been tried and the world has. failed the Palestinian people. JON STEWART: Yes. MOSAB ABU TOHA: It's very heartbreaking for me. JON STEWART: Yes. MOSAB ABU TOHA: When I read, the diaries.

of Anne Frank, Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz, Night by Elie Wiesel. When I read things-- when I read these things, Jon, I read them in the past. But I mean, I sometimes ask myself, what if Anne Frank was. writing these diaries every day, and she was sending these diaries to publish in The New. York Times, The Washington Post to be read on Fox News, or on CNN, and maybe she had the chance. to do an interview with you while she. was still hiding with her family,

and writing what is happening. Just imagine if Wiesel was writing about. how he was standing in line for the Nazis. to pick him and his father from the lines to be--. go to the gas chambers. JON STEWART: And no one did anything. And no one did anything. MOSAB ABU TOHA: So imagine, if these people were doing that, what lesson did we learn? What lesson did we learn from the Holocaust? JON STEWART: Yeah. Mosab, it's the question-- it's the question. of the decade, of the century, of the millennium.

What lessons do we learn from these--. Holocaust, from these tragedies? Thank you so much for joining us. It's Mosab Abu Toha, a poet and an author, and a humanitarian. And I hope to speak with you again soon. MOSAB ABU TOHA: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]. Thank you so much, Jon. Bless you. [ROCK MUSIC]. JON STEWART: I really don't know. how to end other than I hope you.

found that episode meaningful. You may not agree with all of it. You may think there should have been space for other voices, but I think it's important to bear certain witness. in its purest form of that. And I don't know if there is a purer form than somebody. holding up pages and pages of family trees. that have disappeared from this Earth.

So we will be back next week. And obviously, thanks to Lead Producer Lauren Walker, Producer Brittany Mehmedovic, Video Editor and Engineer Rob. Vitolo, Audio Editor and Engineer Nicole Boyce, Researcher and Associate Producer Gillian Spear, and our Executive Producers Chris McShane and Catie Gray. And thank you for listening. [ROCK MUSIC]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount.

Audio and Busboy Productions.