Making & Breaking Points: Populism, New Media & More | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

JON STEWART: Look, we all know in an attention economy, what sells the most is probably outrage, anger, and those things. So how do you and your model avoid. being captured by the rage of the townspeople? How do you avoid pitchforks and torches? SAAGAR ENJETI: Well, that's why we're really blessed, honestly. It's a right-left show. So, at any given time, a decent portion of the audience is mad. KRYSTAL BALL: At one or the other of us. JON STEWART: It works well. SAAGAR ENJETI: It works really well.

KRYSTAL BALL: We're going to be hated. no matter what by some portion. Yeah. JON STEWART: Perfect. [THEME MUSIC]. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to The Weekly Show podcast. My name is Jon Stewart-- the final podcast of the year. We will be gone for the rest of August, and I think coming back in early September. So been a delightful year. Obviously, tonight, I think, is the Wisconsin primary. We don't know what's going to happen. We'll probably discuss it during the episode,

even though we have no idea what it's going to be. And then we'll talk about the other things. It's the dog days of summer. There's not a whole lot going on right now. It's a little bit quiet. Senate is on recess. The House on recess. I am going to go away. I've got a lovely-- like, a snorkel. vacation planned in this beautiful Krystal clear--. I probably am not pronouncing this right--. Hormuz? Strait of Hormuz?

Where we're going to see-- that's. never going to fucking end. But we got a great show for today. I wanted to bring on a couple of folks that I feel like have. been doing the kind of, "I'm on the left, I'm on the right" discussion. I feel like they do it in a way that engenders good faith. And so I wanted to highlight them on today's program. So let me get to them right now. We'll discuss all things left, right, populist, and otherwise. Please welcome to the program, the hosts of Breaking Points.

[THEME MUSIC]. Ladies and gentlemen, here we are, the final Weekly Show. podcast before summer break. And we have the co-hosts of Breaking Points. Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti are. joining us today to discuss all that is happening in the world. First of all, welcome, Krystal. Welcome, Saagar. KRYSTAL BALL: Thank you so much for having us, Jon. SAAGAR ENJETI: Thanks for having us. JON STEWART: I want to start by saying. I don't feel comfortable seeing you two in separate spaces.

[LAUGHTER]. KRYSTAL BALL: We had a debate about that, actually. But it just was a little bit technically easier this way. So I'm sorry that we made you uncomfortable. SAAGAR ENJETI: And same, to see you at home in a t-shirt. It's throwing me off from my childhood. JON STEWART: Oh, dear god. If only you knew, Saagar, how painful. it was for me to put on the suit for my one 20 minutes. a day and all that. That's actually why I left the show in 2015. I just decided, hey, man--.

KRYSTAL BALL: Couldn't take that anymore. JON STEWART: I'm done with the button down. This is over. But we're delighted that you're both here. And I want to ask you, because you're both-- you're. such an interesting dynamic. As you guys have worked together, do you find that your political opinions. are starting to converge? Because I think the point of it is a guy. a little bit on the right--.

Saagar, you'd worked at Daily Caller, you'd done some things--. Krystal more on the left. But as I listen to you guys, I find. there is a great deal, not just of respect, but convergence. And I can't think of another show. where the idea is to get those contrasting. viewpoints that has had that. Is that how you're experiencing it? KRYSTAL BALL: I would say it depends very much on the moment. of the news cycle. So if you had been watching us regularly leading up.

to Trump's victory or after Trump's victory, when we were talking about immigration, and mass deportation, and CECOT--. or even today, we had a big debate about, like, woke 1.0--. you might get a different impression. But the concept of the show, you from the beginning, even predating the current iteration of Breaking Points, was, OK, that bring out the best faith interpretation. of the populist right in conversation. with the populist left, what would that look like? And my theory is that there would be different overlap.

than you might find on the traditional, like, Crossfire, to name a throwback. JON STEWART: I just got a ohh-- something just--. back of the neck, hairs. KRYSTAL BALL: The typical Crossfire. sort of cable news dynamic. And so I think that's what you're picking up on. And, certainly, on the Iran war, on changing the relationship with Israel, on economic issues, there is a lot of overlap there. JON STEWART: I think the thing you said, Krystal, that resonates the most with me is "best faith.". Good faith. And, Saagar, maybe that's what I'm thinking of.

SAAGAR ENJETI: I think that's what you're picking up on. JON STEWART: It might not be a convergence of opinion, it's that it's a good faith discussion. SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that we both really built. our show around is, like, a rejection of cable news--. and just not only the format, but the very way in which they. want to increase division. And we have plenty of division, which we showcase very openly. and honestly, as you just pointed out, Krystal, about our woke 1.0 debate. But in it there was a good faith--. I mean, Krystal heard me out, and I heard her out, and we gave our counterpoints, and there was no, like, yelling.

or screaming at each other. I also, whenever you're talking about convergence, I think that one of the things that really comes with respect. is understanding. And so we've been doing this-- not just this show, but our previous iteration of the show--. for almost, like, seven or eight years now. JON STEWART: What was the first one? KRYSTAL BALL: Rising. SAAGAR ENJETI: It was Rising. JON STEWART: That's it. Rising. SAAGAR ENJETI: Over at The Hill. And one of the things that comes with that is you. come to understand very deeply where. other people are coming from. And it's really useful, because it helps not only. in your interactions politically, but, like,

even in your everyday life. Like, when you hear somebody say something, you can understand where, previously, it would. have been like, what an idiot. You're like, OK, I see how you got to that conclusion. because of the information you took in--. or your worldview is just fundamentally really. different than my worldview. And there's a level of acceptance with that. One of the best compliments that we both get if we're. in public or something is, like, you really helped. my relationship with my dad. You just helped me understand, like, where my dad was coming from whenever he. would rant about x, y, and z.

Like, I understood why--. or vice versa. Like, helped my relationship with my kid. And, like, my kid's really into DSA, and, like, I don't understand know what that is. But when I hear Krystal talk about it, it's like, OK, like, start to make sense to me. And so in that way, it's really edifying and part of the reason. why I love doing the show. JON STEWART: As you've come together, and now it's been, as you said, seven years--. does it help you also identify the bad faith actors--. SAAGAR ENJETI: Oh, yeah. JON STEWART: --in our political and media hellscape?

Has there been a way for you to discern, oh, these people are performative, these people are bad faith? And do you avoid that now, avoid those folks? Or do you expose? What's your--. SAAGAR ENJETI: Both. KRYSTAL BALL: It's a mix. Yeah. I mean, definitely that is certainly the case. And, look, I have become less tolerant of a lot of pundits. on the right. There are very few who are actually on the right. that I would work with at this point, because I just think there's so much lies and propaganda there.

that to deal with that on a daily basis. would not be productive. If you're doing a debate, and you're having an engagement, you're trying to expose, that's one thing. But to work together with someone every day, as you know, is an entirely different relationship. So, for example, in the wake of your Jon Fetterman interview, I don't think that is someone I could work with every. day, because--. JON STEWART: Jon Fetterman--. I'm not sure Jon Fetterman is working. with Jon Fetterman every day. KRYSTAL BALL: Just bad faith arguments, a lack of an ability. to really even grapple with the questions that you're asking,

et cetera. JON STEWART: Yeah. KRYSTAL BALL: But what has made it work with Saagar. is we've had some very heated debates, very. hot, and over issues that we both care a lot about. and I think are very consequential. What makes it work over the long term. is that we're both capable of saying, you know what? I got it wrong there. You were right. You had a point. And I think over the long term, that's part of what has built. the trust that enables it. SAAGAR ENJETI: I totally agree. And, like, vice versa, I think, especially. at the height of a lot of pretty crazy moments--.

2020 and others, there are not a lot of people, I think, who I could have stomached. But, yeah, I mean, as Krystal said, it can get hot. And that's fine. I actually think it's healthy, it's normal. It's reflective of literally the nature of the country. We're literally living through one. of the most tumultuous times, I think, in modern American history. It's probably akin to the 1960s in a lot of different ways--. or, actually, maybe the '70s is a better comparison. JON STEWART: Here's what's sad. I think I'm the only one who's lived through both of those. SAAGAR ENJETI: That's true. I've only read about it, Jon. JON STEWART: If you have any questions, I am happy--.

I'm happy to tell you about it. SAAGAR ENJETI: Right. But, I mean, Jon, since you were there, you know that that was a moment of very actually. limited public debate. And, in my opinion, one of the reasons why things went. really wrong was because of the convergence. of the mass media era. Like, for me, this is honestly surreal to be. able to talk to you, because you were so instrumental for me. as a kid, who is growing up in Bush country, hearing these lies about the Iraq war. There is only one place that I could go to expose, like,

this level of hysteria and nonsense, which I just hear propagated all day long. on all three cable networks. And that was at a time of total ubiquity in mass media, part. of the reason that we got into the war that we did, and it went as long as we did. I think that the Iran war is-- look, it's a disaster, but it is a hopeful story in that the poll numbers. went south immediately. A huge amount of the American public. is getting their information from sources or--. different from sources like us, many others,

who are out there who are able to expose the absolute holes. in all of the propaganda that the Pentagon or the White House. is able to put out. And so, look, it's a disaster that we're in this, but it's actually a hopeful story. that the public turned on it almost immediately. and that we didn't have that edifice to prop it up. that we did at that time. JON STEWART: Well, let me ask you a question, because it brings up the incentives of those systems. that created that, because I think you make a nice. point about the '60s and '70s being. tumultuous in that same way.

I think the Iran war has gone south, in some ways, because this administration doesn't respect. us enough to lie to us. SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah. JON STEWART: They kind of don't give a shit what we think. And in the '60s and '70s, the lies were--. generally, media has found a way, the incentives of it, to get weaponized-- bad faith actors weaponize it, right?

The ubiquity of cable news was at first, and TV in general, in the '60s and '70s, politicians weren't quite. sure what to do with TV. And you remember the debate between Kennedy and Nixon. And Kennedy went out there, and he understood that television. is a visual medium. And Nixon was like, I don't need makeup. I look great. SAAGAR ENJETI: He's sweaty and clammy. JON STEWART: Right. And he got his ass kicked on the TV side. But if you listened to it on the radio, people thought Nixon won.

Do you think, in some respects, the media has just--. politics has figured out how to weaponize media--. is that fair to say? Like, you just talked about all these bad faith actors, right? They exist as part of a political ecosystem, as a way of--. Roger Ailes very famously said, I. want to create something so that what happened to Nixon.

could never happen to another Republican president. Sometimes we separate media and politics. But isn't it true that in a lot of ways, there's a symbiosis? A lot of it's been co-opted by politics. And I'm curious what you think of that. And we can talk a little bit about breaking. down those ecosystems. KRYSTAL BALL: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a double edged sword. On the one hand, absolutely-- and the amount of propaganda, the amount of lies, you go on Twitter, now X, and there's all these accounts that are just AI slop accounts.

feeding all kinds of nonsense. It makes it very difficult, actually, to out what's happening in the war--. not to mention there's a total censorship. lockdown on the US as part of what. is happening in the region. On the flip side of it, though, there's also a hopeful story. there, because in its best incarnation, they haven't been able to cover up the horrors and genocide. People watched that in 4K themselves, and they took their own moral opinion. of what was happening there. And it went directly against what. the bipartisan elite consensus had been for years and years.

I think you're right that it's insulting. that they didn't even bother to lie to us. this time before the war. I think it also reflects the fact that Donald Trump doesn't. feel that he needs to go through the mechanisms. of democracy. We just have to swallow whatever. insanity he's going to do. But I also think the fact that you have so many dissenting. voices in new media that were critical from the beginning. and able to expose the very thin level of propaganda. that had been fed to us has also been a positive point. Now, I get concerned because there are also--.

legacy media has its advantages. There was a real tradition and a firewall between opinion, and the journalist part, and the advertising. And those walls fall down in new media. But overall, I think when you look at those two stories, in particular, you can see that it has helped to create. a better atmosphere for democratic, small D democratic, understanding of what these wars. and what this genocide actually are. SAAGAR ENJETI: I think that's a really important point.

It's a double edged sword, as Krystal said. I compare it to the invention of the printing press. I mean, that's how the internet--. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS] SAAGAR ENJETI: Seriously. That's what the internet-- JON STEWART: Going old school. SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah, because, I mean, what did that actually do? Is it decentralized media. We literally had something called a Hundred Years' War--. a Protestant Reformation, chaos, millions of people died. But, of course, nobody would say, well, yeah, the invention of the printing press was bad. It just unleashed a new medium of debate. Much of it was propaganda-- actually, pornography, one. of the original inventions of the printing press,

of mass distribution, just like the internet. But what it demonstrated, I think, on a long enough timeline was a more informed public. And that's the thing-- we're working things out, as Krystal said. And this is where I think all of us. can be upfront and honest. Like, we are in a difficult position. because we are people who do the news. But Krystal and I are also business owners. We co-own our company. But we set rules at the very beginning--. we do not read ads, period. Because we believe that if we did so, it could potentially compromise things in the future.

Now, we know that we have sacrificed. literally, like, multiple zeros of income. However, what we've decided instead. was to build a more antifragile business. For example, like, we have a premium subscription program, we have YouTube revenue, we have, like, dynamic ads, which are not ads that we read, which we have no negotiation or interest in. But it took a level of intentionality. However, though, there's no reason that we had to do that. If we wanted to read Manscaped ads, we could. KRYSTAL BALL: And most people are not doing that.

and are not going to do that. Yeah. SAAGAR ENJETI: And most people are not doing that and are much. richer than us as a result. But we believe in the long run, it'll work out. JON STEWART: You're starting to make me sweat. And it's why I look to Quince. SAAGAR ENJETI: [LAUGHS]. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Hey, folks, I know you're. trying to figure out ways to skip through these little ad. reads here. I get that. I know what you're doing. I know you're looking into that Spotify thing. Yeah, listen, I'm not blind, you bastards.

And, to be honest with you, I'm not. crazy about reading them in the first place, generally, except for this one. Ground News. I'm always going to go to bat for the Ground News. Ground News, because it's--. I hate the news. I hate what it's doing to me emotionally. I hate that you don't really know where the information. is coming from sometimes. You don't know how it's being manipulated. And it adds to the creeping fog of sadness that grows. But I have to keep up. I have to understand what's going on in the world.

And that's why Ground News, they've got a website. It's an app. You can see how different news outlets. will frame the same story. They've got a blind spot feed so you can challenge yourself. about your news consumption. To get the same unlimited access to the Vantage. subscription, go to GroundNews.com/Stewart. and subscribe to get 40% off. Discount only, available for a limited time. That's GroundNews.com/Stewart. Or scan the QR code on screen. [THEME MUSIC].

Saagar, so this is really interesting to me, because we're talking about media independence. And when you think of independence, I think, writ large, you think of it as media independence. from corporate interests. We're not owned by Universal, or GE, or any of these things. But independence is also, are you independent. from a political motivation? SAAGAR ENJETI: Yes. JON STEWART: That's another form of independence.

And a lot of people, I think, are captured by that. But the third avenue of independence, and I wonder about this for you, is, what are your incentives to the audience? SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah. JON STEWART: When you say we have a subscription. model and all that--. and do the incentives of, look, we all know, in an attention economy, what sells. the most is probably outrage, anger, and those things. So how do you, in your model, avoid.

being captured by the rage of the townspeople? How do you avoid pitchforks and torches? SAAGAR ENJETI: Well, that's why we're really blessed, honestly. It's a right-left show. So, at any given time, a decent portion of the audience is mad. KRYSTAL BALL: At one or the other of us. JON STEWART: It works well. SAAGAR ENJETI: It works really well. KRYSTAL BALL: We're going to be hated. no matter what by some portion. Yeah. JON STEWART: Perfect. SAAGAR ENJETI: We are very often hated by our own paying--. we might have one of the most ignominious. honors of being often hated by the people who pay us.

But that's built in, as I said. So at various different times, we've gone through these types. of events before. People are mad that you said x, y, or z. But because of our political independence. and the right-left kind of dynamic. that is baked in to the heart of the program, it means that there are always new people who also show up. That's one of the things where a lot of-- and you actually. can see this-- there's a lot of articles about MAGA media. and how it's collapsing. As enthusiasm in MAGA and the project with Donald Trump,

especially with younger men, starts to go down, people who went all in on just Trump alone. or on right wing so-called media. are seeing a dramatic reduction in their overall revenue. and views, because that's just not really what. people want to hear right now. That is just not something that could ever happen to us, because Krystal would always represent a side of somebody. who's critical of MAGA-- or, I mean, even I am, obviously, as well. But vice versa, let's say, whenever. Joe Biden was president. And so we're very lucky, honestly, in the way. that we designed everything.

But what you're laying out is a very real problem. And it explains grifterism, which is basically people who. have to continue it going, manufacture, and create. new type of controversies purely. for an economic incentive, which is enough of a cancer. that we have today. KRYSTAL BALL: Yeah. I mean, audience capture is very real. You can, if you're watching channels closely, you can tell who's just catering to their audience. and what they think an algorithm. wants them to produce. But I also want to say, with regard.

to the fury and the pitchforks, like, I. think people have good reason to be furious right now--. I think both on an economic level. We've been thrust into this war that basically. no one wanted that is devastating for the. global economy. It's, first and foremost, devastating for Iranians. and Iranian civilians. We have had our taxpayer dollars. used to fund a genocide that, again, the public has. vociferously turned against. And we have a system that is rigged by an oligarch class. So I think talking about those things, the way that the AI oligarchs literally.

want to take everyone's jobs, yeah, people. should get angry about that. Those are things that should infuriate you. And so we don't shy away from that. I think to be informed right now is to be angry and furious. about the state of affairs. SAAGAR ENJETI: I agree. JON STEWART: Let me ask you, because it's. such an interesting thing to point out. how many real things there that can shock. the conscience of people. And yet, I think if I'm being fair about where. the real energy of the debate is right now,

it's whether or not Enes Kanter is going. to get drafted into the WNBA. Like, the real outrage in this country and culture. doesn't seem to be about those very real points. you just articulated, Krystal. KRYSTAL BALL: And to me--. Saagar may have a different take on this-- but to me, it's very obvious what's going on here. Trump's approval is in the toilet. His war is a disaster. The economic numbers are trash. People are furious.

JON STEWART: I think it's the greatest economy. this country's ever had. KRYSTAL BALL: I forgot about that. Yes. According to Fox News, absolutely. And Republicans are facing what is likely to be a landslide. defeat in the midterms. So what are they doing? They're going back to the culture war bag of tricks. Here's a shiny object that I can dangle over at Fox News. to get our own base back in line. But I actually don't think that that's. what's driving, for example, the electoral results. that we're seeing in Democratic primaries across the country.

and likely to see in the general election in the fall. There, to me, the number one issue. is very likely the economy, but it's also. horror at a foreign policy that is both expensive. and deeply immoral. SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah, Jon, I would push back a bit. I agree with you-- JON STEWART: What? How dare you, sir. SAAGAR ENJETI: Well, I just think it's reflective, maybe, of a cable news bias. Because you're right, I believe the WNBA. was the second most mentioned topic on Fox News this week. And that's probably true of the 65-plus crowd,

if I were to go and ask them. However, the segments that perform best on our channel. are things about the housing crisis, are about flock cameras, data centers, AI displacement, and job loss, foreign policy. I mean, I never thought I would have my dream job of being. able to speak to guys like Professor John Mearsheimer, who. is my literal idol, for over like an hour and a half. and have him describe, like, great power. politics and the Iran war, and watch millions of people.

want to engage with that type of content. And so I do think, like, look, are. we amusing ourselves to death? Empirically, yes. I mean, not just in terms of sports, but with gambling and many of the other vices. which are exploding in our current society. However, what we always also point out. on the show, that is derivative of real problems like housing, which is the one I would say we see the most consistent rage. in terms of not just our audience, but in our demographic and is, like, downstream.

of so many of the other problems. that we face, like, as a society. KRYSTAL BALL: Can I also just say, Jon, that I think, too, the revelation-- this will feel. like a bit of a left turn-- but the revelations. in the Epstein files of the way that this powerful elite. actually has this incredible class solidarity. and the way that they operate, I. think it's blown some of the lid off of this idea. that what we should really be focused on. is trans people or these culture war debates. Because we've been able to see the way.

the powerful actually work in the world and the view. that they have of the rest of us. And so I think that that has been. a very educational and illuminating experience. for people as well as they process. some of these, like, new red meat culture war debates. that are thrown into the mix. JON STEWART: Yeah. It's just hard to imagine, when we talk about in the importance. of it, all these things that you're bringing up. are truly important. And yet, there's been no accountability for any of it.

KRYSTAL BALL: Correct. JON STEWART: And it seems like what there is accountability. for, either legislatively or otherwise, are culture war issues that-- like, I'll give you an example. The SAVE Act being at the forefront. of so much of the problems that were going. on in the Senate right now. And the liberals, they want illegals. who are voting in millions of numbers not to show an ID--.

just utter nonsense that gets thrown out there, or the trans debate as being at the forefront of what's. in everybody's minds about--. like, nuance is utterly removed through the process. of our media and our politics. Yet, the things that you talk about that are facing Americans. or are making them question the legitimacy of our institutions. are never addressed, seemingly with no accountability.

KRYSTAL BALL: Yeah. SAAGAR ENJETI: I mean, that's the core of our show. KRYSTAL BALL: Can I give you another example of that, Jon--. JON STEWART: Please. KRYSTAL BALL: --which is very much top of the news cycle. right now. So there's this whole controversy about Hasan Piker. and whether or not candidates should associate with him. And Abdul El-Sayed famously had a rally with him. So he's being targeted right now as, like, how dare you associate with this guy who said. all these terrible things? The clip that they usually point to is where he says that. we, quote unquote, "deserved 9/11"--. he's talking about the concept of blowback and for which. he has since apologized.

Meanwhile, Abdul El-Sayed is running against a guy who. literally was in Congress after 9/11, who authorized the Iraq war, who. supported mass surveillance, who defended torture. But that guy is fine. But associating with someone who. said something that was edgy one time, that's what's out of bounds. That's what should be off limits. That's not just me, but I think most people, is insane. JON STEWART: Well, I'll do you one better--.

JD Vance's spiritual advisor, the preacher. that JD Vance considers one of his spiritual advisors, talks about male dominion over women. There are all kinds of extremes in terms of association. I remember with Obama--. KRYSTAL BALL: Just think about, though, the contrast between Hasan Piker said a thing in response. to 9/11 versus this guy actually was in power and was. involved in the horrific lies leading up to the war,

the authorization of the war, the torture, the murder of Iraqi civilians. And so when you talk about accountability, where is. the accountability for that? Where is the moral weight on that versus, I mean, many of these guys that were villains on your show. when you were covering the Iraq war are. still around today to propagandize us. and push us in the Iran war? So I think that lack of accountability you point to. is a big failing in our society. And, in my opinion, it has to be corrected.

in the next administration. People have to go to prison for the crimes that were committed, whether it's rogue ICE agents, whether it's insider. trading within this regime. That has to happen for us to re-establish anything. approaching a healthy society. SAAGAR ENJETI: And I will say, Jon, for me--. I know I'm with two liberals here, so I'm trying to pick my battles. KRYSTAL BALL: How dare you call me a liberal? SAAGAR ENJETI: Sorry, a leftist and a liberal--. a leftist and a liberal. And I'm going to have to fact--. I'm going to have to check on that JD. Vance spiritual advisor one.

JON STEWART: Hegseth's spiritual advisor. I'm sorry. SAAGAR ENJETI: OK. I was going to say--. I was like, I'm fairly certain that's not true. JON STEWART: That was Hegseth. But JD Vance was Peter Thiel, who, like, when asked by Ross Douthat, should human beings continue to exist--. SAAGAR ENJETI: Long pause. JON STEWART: --paused for, like, 8 seconds to be like, I don't know about humans. And, like, has unbelievably-- you know this, other. people that are in those--. my point being, guilt by association, which is often. thrown in Democrats' faces, whether it was Obama's.

spiritual advisor, can be thrown into the right's faces, but it never seems to be done in that way. SAAGAR ENJETI: That's fair. Pastor Wright-- is that right? Pastor Wright? Now that I think about it. JON STEWART: Yes. Pastor Wright. SAAGAR ENJETI: That was a long time ago. KRYSTAL BALL: Oh, with Obama you're talking about? SAAGAR ENJETI: Anyway, I think the vein I'm picking up on, and this is where--. I mean, I would say this is, like, the great disappointment, political disappointment, of my life-- as I said, I was inspired to get involved in politics because of Iraq.

And the centerpiece of the 2024 campaign, and it's fair for people to say that you were fooled, was no more foreign wars. I mean, the Vice President, as you said, wrote an op-ed endorsing Trump. Trump's best legacy-- no new wars. Stephen Miller famously said, Kamala. will send your sons to war. A significant contingent in the 2024 campaign. was we are not going to war with Iran. And so to live in a reality where Trump dastardly.

and disgracefully attacks Iran under the cover of negotiations. twice, kills 168 schoolgirls, delivers the greatest strategic. disaster to the United States, potentially, either. since Vietnam or eclipsing it, if you. talk to one of our guests, Professor Robert Pape--. to live in that reality with those people, who. I really did trust-- and I'm saying. this on a personal level. I know many of them. I came up in politics kind of in the same cohort.

It has been the greatest betrayal of my lifetime. And I think what's really disappointing is how much of it. is clearly BS in that I believed. that the voters believed that the wars were bad. And so to live in a reality where Thomas Massie loses his. house primary purely because of AIPAC, and pro-Israel money, and a Boomer Republican base who, if you had polled them under--. JON STEWART: Well, and that Trump. I mean, let's not deny that Trump--.

SAAGAR ENJETI: 100%. Those two together, like, those two forces together. JON STEWART: Saagar, I want to ask you a question--. and I mean this. And this is for Krystal, too. The dynamic that you're describing. is a politics that distorts reality, that. creates an impression, and then makes. policy choices to ameliorate the damage. of this false reality. And you're saying that your dividing line for that.

was Iraq and now Iran? I think maybe the disconnect here for whatever you would. call liberals, or the left, or any of those things, is that the entirety of Trump's operation has been that. SAAGAR ENJETI: Is a con, is what you're saying. JON STEWART: That's right. The same dynamic you're describing. that has disappointed you in Iraq and Iran, I would say, has disappointed me. When you say the Haitian community is eating cats. and dogs-- well, that's the same, immigration wise,

as Saddam Hussein is using these aluminum. tubes to enrich uranium. And that's why we have to go in there. In other words, the reason that has been given. for so many of these policy decisions. that I would disagree with is also a distortion of reality. SAAGAR ENJETI: I think that's entirely fair, Jon. JON STEWART: So I find it interesting. that it's, but somehow Iran-- it's like the whole Tucker. Carlson of it. SAAGAR ENJETI: OK. JON STEWART: I've had enough. Really?

Because it looks to me like it's the same shit that's. been happening from day one. SAAGAR ENJETI: I think that's entirely fair. Again, to take a step back, and I. can only share from my perspective--. like, the Haitian thing. Yeah, it was a lie. The truth is, a lot of us sat and swallowed it because we. wanted less immigration. And we're like, OK, well, I mean, this highlights a topic and an issue which we can fight on. We can put the left on the back foot because they want. mass amnesty, and we don't. And that was a tactical political decision that people.

in politics make all the time. JON STEWART: But I'm not even sure they want mass amnesty. Like, I even think that's a red herring. I don't know that they do want mass amnesty, but we don't have a politics in this country that's. functional enough or literate enough. to have an actual conversation about what. immigration in this country should look like. SAAGAR ENJETI: I think-- again, I totally take your point. And this is the most common--. JON STEWART: Look at me. Look at me. Come on. SAAGAR ENJETI: My parents are loving this. My parents are loving this, me being put in my place.

But I do think, like, with the Iran thing--. and, again, I can explain it from my perspective-- which. these were people whose entire careers, literally, were kind of built on opposition. to the neoconservative agenda. And did we know Trump is a liar, a con, often says various different things? Absolutely. Many of us knew that, or would say it in private. What we also knew is that in his first term, he was incredibly deferential to a lot of his staff. A lot of the people he was hiring, I knew, for a fact, at the very least, had a genuine belief we.

shouldn't go to war with Iran. But what was extremely black pilling, to use an online term--. JON STEWART: Whoa. SAAGAR ENJETI: --was to see those same people. have to defend the war and, in some cases, use Iraq rhetoric. I mean, I remember the Vice President, who I'd seen give lectures against the war with Iran. or against neoconservatism, he was in the Oval, it was in the middle of the Iran war, and he's like, it's like a suicide bomber. We're not going to wait till the suicide. bomb goes off to disarm it.

And I was like, oh, my god. JON STEWART: We don't want the smoking gun. to be a mushroom cloud, right? SAAGAR ENJETI: It's Condoleezza Rice all over again. I actually couldn't believe it. And then Mark Thiessen is back on my television screen, and Ari Fleischer is back on my television screen, and the same liars like who are justifying this--. and to watch that happen-- like, I'd say, fine, I was fooled. I didn't think it would. I thought that the lesson was learned. And there's a major mea culpa that has had and has.

to be had by people who thought that it would be different. and said so publicly. So that's where I am currently. JON STEWART: Krystal, what do you think of that? Because it's hard for me to hear. a mea culpa about an Iran war when the entire regime is that. There's an inevitability to the reality distortion field. and the actions that they take based on a reality. that they are creating. KRYSTAL BALL: Yeah. Well, this is something Saagar and I. have had it out over on our show quite a lot. and have sorted through in many conversations.

And I've certainly had my "I told you so's.". And, in fairness to Saagar--. JON STEWART: It's not even an I told you--. I don't mean it that way. Honestly, it's not that. KRYSTAL BALL: No, I get what you're saying, though. And I think one of the biggest differences, in my view, going into Trump 2.0 and Saagar's view, apart from the fact that we have different ideologies. and so we have different things that we consider to be. good or bad, specifically on immigration, in particular-- but Saagar's view was that there were. institutional constraints the first time, and there will be some institutional constraints.

this time. SAAGAR ENJETI: That's true. KRYSTAL BALL: I looked at what had been done in the offseason, whether it was Project 2025, whether it was all of the plans. to mass fire government workers, whether it was the Supreme Court--. taking control of the Supreme Court and then the Supreme. Court giving Trump a green light to commit whatever crimes. in office that he wants to, whether it was the mass loyalty. test and fealty that he demanded. and demanded that people back up his. 2020 election stolen lies--. I looked at that and said, no, this is going to be gloves off.

It is going to be a most maximalist. version of what he would want to do, of what his id is. And it's going to be horrifying. Now, even I don't think could have anticipated all. of the DOGE, and CECOT, and murdering random fishermen. in the Caribbean. I could have anticipated and did anticipate the Iran war. But those were, I think, two of the very different frames. that we had coming into this. And, for me, I'm very much caught between people who now.

are seeing some of the problems, I want to say, great, come along. But I agree with you that there has. to be some reckoning with, OK, how did you get it wrong? And, again, I think Saagar has actually done this--. but how did you get it wrong? How did you end up in this place? And what are we doing going forward? Because if you're now just all of a sudden pretending. like you had nothing to do with his rise, if you aren't reckoning with the other lies and horrors that.

unfolded during Trump 1.0, and in the offseason, and in the build-up to Iran, then it's. going to be very difficult to have any sort of, like, coming together or, certainly, coalition. formed around that group. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: I only eat food now. that, afterwards, I can swim in the bowl that I ate it in. Can you imagine if your cereal bowl was literally. big enough you could eat your cereal.

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Even vegans get to feel like they had a childhood. You'll find vegan options at Whole Foods. Or get $5 off your next order at MagicSpoon.com/TWS. That's MagicSpoon.com/TWS for $5 off. [THEME MUSIC]. My concern is that this awakening. is actually just strategic. SAAGAR ENJETI: What do you mean by that? JON STEWART: So, all right, let's go to the photograph. in the Cracker Barrel-- the Thomas Massie,

Marjorie Taylor Greene, Tucker Carlson photo of the diaspora--. the Republican diaspora, those that have woken, and the Iran war. And now they sit in this room, and they're. going to come up with the-- this is the real. make America great again. That was fake. We enabled it. We worked our asses off to amplify the lying, to help create a reality distortion field that has given.

us all of these bad outcomes, from invading Iran. to a shitty reflecting pool, because they're. all one and the same. They're part of the same process, quite frankly. SAAGAR ENJETI: Uh huh. JON STEWART: It's all the same--. it's the real great replacement theory. Let's take all the partisans and replace. them with ideologues, because partisans are part of the game. Ideologues are a whole different version. And now what they've done is they've created a little.

isolated group that can say, oh, no, we didn't go along with it. So whoever rises up to next lead MAGA, that group can bless and provide cover to say, oh, no, these guys have it right now. This is the real MAGA. And we'll provide cover. And I don't think any of it isn't intentional. I think the entirety of the design of this--.

and it's not just the last 10 years, it's the last 50 or 60 years. SAAGAR ENJETI: So, I mean, obviously, a very cynical interpretation. I know some of the people--. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS] Please tell. me why I shouldn't be cynical about that interpretation. Please tell me why these bad faith actors are. suddenly acting in good faith. SAAGAR ENJETI: You have every right to think that. I don't think that there's nearly the incentive. that you necessarily are--. like, you have people who all lost their elections and are. not exactly, like-- well, let's say Marjorie Taylor.

Greene's and Thomas Massie's case, like, actually lost their entire careers--. or Joe Kent, for example, who I know personally. and is not somebody--. JON STEWART: I don't think--. I don't think they're the progenitors of it. I think Tucker is. I think he's the one who has to be--. he feels he must be-- it's very telling he said, I couldn't believe how little influence I had. His whole thing is I have to be in proximity to power. SAAGAR ENJETI: See, look, I've known Tucker for a long time. I just don't really agree with that analysis,

having spoken to him. I would say that he does feel genuinely. burned by Donald Trump, not just with Iran, but actually with a lot more. I know you're skeptical. JON STEWART: I mean, how are you burned by a guy. that, 10 years ago, you said, this man is corrupt to the core. and I hate him? How are you burned by that? SAAGAR ENJETI: Sure. I mean, the Vice President said that as well. I think people can change. JON STEWART: Right. And is also a cynical, cynical person manipulating himself.

into the halls of power. You can't convince me otherwise because I've. seen no evidence of it. SAAGAR ENJETI: Let's take the Vice President. out, because you're right-- he's. literally the Vice President. So he had something to gain. I don't see, necessarily, the same Tucker gain. I guess whenever it comes to the third party, or let's even take the Trump criticism, I, again, think it's genuine. It has lost him any, like, genuine friendships, cachet, I think, in terms of his ability to project. power in a Republican Party.

I mean, I'm not sure if you've seen. some of the approval polling on Tucker, like, after Trump--. JON STEWART: Did they do approval polling on pundits? SAAGAR ENJETI: They did. Yes, they did, because they were testing this exact theory. of what you're discussing, which is, like, hey, does Tucker independently have juice amongst Republicans. without Trump? And his net negatives went much higher. Obviously, he's independent on his show, like, in terms. of his, like, away from partisanship. or his own economic situation. JON STEWART: But, Saagar, the same. could be said about Republicans who were.

apostate about the Iraq war. In other words, people look to the future. And he's always been a guy that has looked to what's--. look, explain to me, a guy who says, I'm all about liberty, and America, and make America great again. And you know who's really a great leader? Putin. Like, there's an incoherence to this that has to be cynical. because it's incoherent. SAAGAR ENJETI: I understand how you get there. But, again, for-- but it's like--.

and this is kind of like we were--. because I work with Krystal. Like, I could see your brain pathways--. JON STEWART: Yes, yes, yes. SAAGAR ENJETI: --and how you get there. So I'll explain the way that we would get there. And the way we would get there is, like, Tucker-- or not even. just Tucker, a lot of MAGA-- and you're talking about Putin, I assume, in terms of, like, the war. in Ukraine or admiration or whatever. for the Russian system, some of which, by the way, I do think. goes too far. But a lot of it--. JON STEWART: Some of which? SAAGAR ENJETI: No, I'm saying in terms of, like, people who. like-- or, like, Russia is this pinnacle of Western greatness.

And it's like, well, just look at their demographics. and their economy. Like, that's not exactly true. But the point that I think where it came from-- again, just to try to explain this-- is a lot of the original 2016. energy, in particular, was a Buchananite rejection. of globalism. And, in particular, I think what people tried. to see in Putin, or like admiration. or whatever of Putin or the Russian system, was somebody who stands athwart,

like, the neoliberal West. So if I were to look at it through that frame, it's a little bit different. Like, I don't think it is necessarily as incongruent. as you're thinking. Because if you're a nationalist and your primary view. of the world is that sovereignty itself is one. of the things you should promote, and not just promote, but to cherish and to hold dear as much as possible, then you're going to look at different countries which have. rejected, like, a Western global hegemon.

and say, oh, that's admirable, I guess, in a sense. Again, I'm not saying I agree with this. JON STEWART: Sure. SAAGAR ENJETI: But I'm just trying to explain. how somebody would get there. JON STEWART: Well, Krystal, let me ask you, because it is-- this gets us into a whole other thing, but maybe this is the distinction between left wing. and right wing populism. Because I always think of populism through a much. more economic lens. But there really is a nationalist lens--. SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah. JON STEWART: --that you have to look through it as well. And the thing that's interesting about. the right wing populism is-- and, again, I.

view it as cynical. It's the Bannon theory of power. I'm going to combine left wing economic populism, because I. think that gives me a large group of people to pull from, and I'm going to combine it with right wing, we must protect white Anglo-Saxon culture. and Western civilization, which is their, I guess, sort of euphemism for that homogeneity.

I think the second part of that, the white homogeneity, is more important to them than the economic populism. And the reason that I think that is. because they didn't tell their judges to be. economic populists. Like, every Supreme Court decision that comes down. basically favors corporate interest--. KRYSTAL BALL: Yeah. JON STEWART: --rather than workers' interests. KRYSTAL BALL: The economic part of it, at least.

putting the voters aside, but in the expression of right wing. populism in Trump and, I would say, other right wing populist leaders. around the world-- the economic part is basically fake. I mean, this has been an incredible administration. for billionaires in the oligarch class. They've never made more money, or had more power, or been deregulated. They're getting everything they want. And that's part of why it was easier for Trump to take. over the Republican Party than it. has been for the left to take over the Democratic Party. Because the left wing populism, that class.

dynamic you're talking about, that is the whole thing. In populism, you're basically doing the people. versus who is the villain. For the left, the villain is the billionaires. It's the trillionaires. It's the Epstein class. It's the oligarchs. For the right, it's typically, to frame it--. I think you're right in your framing. There's usually a lot of scapegoating. of various minority groups. And so you can use a slopulist, faux populist rhetoric when. it comes to the economics.

But that has all been cast aside. And in Trump 1.0, it was as well. I mean, their biggest economic accomplishment. was this big tax cut for the rich. that was cooked up by the Heritage. Foundation and Paul Ryan. So I think that is an important distinction here. And I think that's increasingly becoming. clear to many Americans, which is why Trump's approval. rating on the economy is in the toilet, why there is. such disgust with him, why you see this real rise of left wing. populist candidates who are overcoming a lot of money,

and establishment rejection of them, and attempts to smear and demagogue against them. But they're able to succeed anyway. because the establishment has lost so much credibility. with the Democratic base, and also. because these economic and oligarchic forces. have become so abundantly apparent to so many Americans. SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah. Jon, and I think-- look, again, I hear your critique. And I've had my mea culpa. JON STEWART: By the way, Saagar, you really are--. like, your way of dealing with me.

is exactly how now I'm going to go home and deal. with people in my family. I hear what you're saying. SAAGAR ENJETI: Right. I see how you got there. JON STEWART: I see how you got there. SAAGAR ENJETI: I mean, because I spend. my time with Krystal and--. JON STEWART: I've been in that Waymo, and I understand--. SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah. JON STEWART: --it's taking you--. SAAGAR ENJETI: Right. You took one route, we're taking another. JON STEWART: Exactly. SAAGAR ENJETI: If you were to take my route, my preferred route. So you're impugning-- or not impugning, you're imbuing kind of an ideology of just,

in your original analysis there, about economics and. about white identity politics. But I actually think, and I would take it further, is it's actually worse. It's really just about Trump. And I think it really took the Iran war to fully kick. that in for me is that the voters, fundamentally, they. just really like Trump. And it's actually not as much about policy. or any of the things that you might think. It really hit home for me in terms of-- like,

when I talk to some of these people, still all on board. the Trump train, especially the older voters, they really just love how he drives people like you crazy. And that's actually just all it is. JON STEWART: That may be the saddest thing I've ever heard. SAAGAR ENJETI: But it's true. It is empirically true is what you. see is, like, liberal cultural rejection of Trump. JON STEWART: He hates the right people. SAAGAR ENJETI: Or, no, he's hated by the right people. That's actually what it's about. JON STEWART: All right. SAAGAR ENJETI: And so that's the truth, I think, at the beating heart of a lot of the remaining. MAGA coalition.

JON STEWART: So if we start to like him, they'll abandon him. SAAGAR ENJETI: I don't know about that. The damage has probably been done. But I don't know if they would cling, necessarily, as hard as you think. But this is where, though, to break my own analysis, the one thing that does appear to quote unquote, "trump that". is the economic situation, which is a validation, I think, of the economic framework. of what you're talking about. For the very first time, we see Trump's net approval rating, or approval rating with Republicans.

on the economy, began to dip down as a result, both of the way that the tariffs were handled. and because of the Iran war and $4 gasoline. That is beginning to pierce what I would. say is the cultural veneer. And it already has, definitely, for a lot of, let's say, the younger men or voters who went along with Trump in 2024. JON STEWART: But I'd rather talk. about the designers of this program. than those that have to live through it. I think I'm talking more about the designers.

SAAGAR ENJETI: OK. JON STEWART: That the Project 2025 designers--. there is a Christian nationalist bent to it. that I think is the driving force of it. And everything else is strategic and intentional. about how do we get there. How do we get to the power? How do we get to control everything when.

our ultimate goal is that? SAAGAR ENJETI: So I actually see--. I think it's much more economic. Well, and even Project 2025 itself is kind. of a complicated story, right? Because Project 2025 was written. by the Heritage Foundation. It was explicitly disavowed by Donald. Trump on the campaign trail, who was like, I have nothing to do--. JON STEWART: Come on, man. Now you're--. SAAGAR ENJETI: I'm not saying it was real. I'm saying he disavowed it. Correct? Like, he did. JON STEWART: But cynically. He didn't disavow it. He tried not-- he gave it plausible deniability, as he.

does with-- that's my point is when you act like, wow, this Iran thing really caught me off guard. And then you tell me with earnestness, oh, no, he disavowed 2025. He did nothing of the kind. He, in no way, wanted to deal with the particulars of it, because he knew how politically damaging it was. SAAGAR ENJETI: No, no, I'm actually--. I was about to get there. So I was saying he disavowed it only, then, to hire many of the people who were.

signatories of Project 2025. So there was an acknowledgment going. into the campaign that this is politically damaging, this type of product, the Heritage Foundation, et cetera. But then that became the general policy, at least in some areas. It's been kind of complicated because a lot of it. is just Trump himself deciding what the tariff rate on China. should be whenever he wakes up in the morning. I'm not joking. That's actually how it works. JON STEWART: I liked when he did-- he didn't like. a conversation he had in Switzerland, and he was like 50% on chocolate. SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah.

50% on chocolate and watches-- for the watch. community, that was devastating, as a member of that. So, like, when we talk about the designers, I don't know if it's as intentional, though, as you say. I do think all political coalitions have, like, people who are insider organizations in Washington. who are jockeying for power. That's literally the job of the Heritage. Foundation or of these neoconservative think tanks. So you're saying, like, what you're talking about, how you think the Iran war came out of nowhere. That's kind of a foolish thought.

But it's just really hard for somebody who lives in the town, knows some of the most senior appointees or some. of the people who were there, who, in private and in public, spoke against war with Iran, made good cases against war. with Iran, why we should disengage from the Middle. East-- to say that that was disingenuous the whole time, I'm still just having a hard time with that. JON STEWART: No. What I'm saying is not that it was disingenuous. And I'll ask you this, Krystal--. the idea wasn't that they really didn't.

believe they would go in Iran. My point is that all these other policy decisions that. have gone along with the intentional design of moving us. more towards this intentional Heritage American version, non-creedal America, of a people who belong here more. than other people who are more American than other people--. real America--. that's all been driven by a very intentional planning group.

that is trying to figure out ways to maximize their power, and, in doing so, have created this group that. is manufacturing a reality to get them to do that. Now, the Iran war, whether it fits into that framing or not, that's the reality of it. It's a cynical manipulation to get to a certain goal. And my problem is-- and, Krystal,

I'm going to ask you this--. is it your problem as well that you look at this sudden, like, I can't believe the tiger ate my face, when the rest of us have been faced. with this cynical manipulation of policy the whole time? KRYSTAL BALL: Yeah. JON STEWART: Whether it got them the results. they wanted on immigration, but not the result. they wanted on Iran. KRYSTAL BALL: Yeah. I mean, at the risk of ganging up on Saagar, I feel very similarly to you. JON STEWART: No, no, no, no, no. And, by the way, and then we'll talk about how the left sucks.

KRYSTAL BALL: OK. We'll do that in a moment. JON STEWART: Yes. KRYSTAL BALL: But, no, I mean, I look at the track record. from Trump 1.0. I look at JD Vance's speech, to your point, about the, like, heritage American, Christian nationalist vision. for the country-- his speech at the RNC, where he laid out an explicitly blood and soil conception, said, "America is not an idea.". And then you look at Stephen Miller, who is so powerful that he's been. called the "prime minister" within the administration. And this guy is a die hard ideologue who.

loves to Nazi post on Main. There is no doubt what his priorities are. And so far, as Trump even has said, like, oh, this guy would like there to just. be 100 million people in the country that all look like him. So it's not a secret what his priorities are. And he's been given a free hand in order to execute. that sort of policy. So I think you have that strain. And then I think you have a Trump. is just the most self-dealing, corrupt person. on the entire planet, who also has Kushner, and Witkoff,

and these other characters who are also focused on looting. and self-dealing as the other primary impetus. within the administration. And I think when you put all of that together, and also. Trump's desire to be this big man in history, and he wants this world changing legacy, whether that is for good or for ill, I. think that's part of what explains the Iran war, in particular. But when you put the ideologues, together. with the self-dealing, together with the total lack.

of any guardrails on this train at this point, that's how you end up with this situation. And, yes, to your point, I mean, not only was it. predictable, it was predicted. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Mint Mobile--. and it's important that you throw in the Mobile there. Because Mint, we all know what that's about. But Mint Mobile, what we're talking about here. is a phone company that's delivering you their product. for less than what other phone companies are doing.

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are having such a difficult time--. they don't control anything. They don't control the Senate. They don't control the Congress. They don't control the court. And they don't control the White House. So what is it about the way that Democrats have governed. that has allowed this, in my mind, cynical and corrupt. experiment to take such hold? And when will accountability come for that? Because I don't think that Trump arose for no reason.

I think people were dissatisfied with a government. that did not seem to be responsive to the needs of the. people and was at a remove. KRYSTAL BALL: Yes. I agree. And I think what we've seen to this point is a sort of limp, status quo, decorum obsessed liberalism is not. going to be sufficient to fight what I see as rising forces. of fascism in the country. They weren't historically, when we. had a previous rise of a fascist movement. in this country.

It took FDR, it took the New Deal coalition, a sort of experiment in social democracy here in the US, to beat that back. JON STEWART: Forget about rising fascism, though. How about just, like, rural broadband? Like, I'm not even talking about a party. that is not up to the task of fighting the Nazis. I'm talking about a party that is. not up to the task of competently. governing and easing the difficulties. that people are facing in their day-to-day lives--. not being responsive to their needs.

SAAGAR ENJETI: See, I would pick up on that. KRYSTAL BALL: Not only not responsive to their needs, but actively gaslighting them about their needs. I mean, we could go back to the financial crisis. and the response to that. JON STEWART: Yes. OK. KRYSTAL BALL: Which was too little, where there was zero accountability. to Wall Street criminals, where homeowners. were completely screwed. And you can see the seeds of that dissatisfaction. And now we've got two generations,

millennials and Zoomers-- and soon it'll be Gen Alpha. as well-- who are being shut out of the American dream, who can't aspire to buy a house, who see education costs--. they're told to go get a college degree. That college degree is wildly expensive. They're saddled with debt. And then they can't get a good job out of it. A bunch of AI oligarchs are telling them. they're going to take their jobs anyway. And there has been a wildly insufficient, at best, response from the Democratic Party establishment, who. have been more interested in palliative care for America. and the working class of America,

in particular, than actually solving problems--. JON STEWART: Wait, they put us in hospice? KRYSTAL BALL: --and governing-- pretty much--. and governing effectively. And so one of the things that we've seen in the small pilot. experiment of Zohran Mamdani in New York City, where, look, you're the mayor of a city. It's a big city, but you've got limited powers, is. I do think you see a different approach. to governance where there's a real commitment to, no, we're going to make promises. We're going to deliver on those promises. People are going to feel the impact of government. in a positive way. I'm sure you probably saw the story-- someone posted.

a picture of a pothole on, I think it was Instagram, and by the end of the day, he had. come and filled that pothole. It's something small, but it makes people feel like, oh, the tax dollars that I'm paying the government that I elected, they actually are trying to make. my life better in a way that materially. improves my quality of life. And Democrats have become completely divorced from that. And then the other part of this that, of course, hangs over all. of it is money in politics. I mean, this is really the root cause of so much of it, where they are beholden to corporations,

they're beholden to special interests, whether it's AIPAC, or big tech, et cetera, that keeps them at odds with the needs. and the desires of the American people. And so that's why I've been so heartened to see this reckoning. that is happening between the Democratic base. and the Democratic establishment in the party. JON STEWART: Saagar, is that-- how do you see the left now? Do you buy into the framing-- there's a lot talk about, now they're socialists. And very rarely does anyone ever. talk about what socialism is.

It's just a word. And no one really describes, in terms of specific policy, what's socialist about it. How do you see the left? What would be your greatest criticism of them? And what would be your fix to that? How could you see them recovering from that? SAAGAR ENJETI: So, I mean, look, I do not speak for the right. So I'm a very unique person. I don't really care about Hasan Piker. I did an event with him. He was fine.

We were perfectly cordial. I actually think he's not nearly as radical as a lot. of people think that he is. And so I don't know if I'm the best person to answer, but, like, from my perspective, here's what I would say. is that, fundamentally, what I think-- you guys talked. about there's been a lot of, like, oh, cultural issues. and all of that-- or nonsense. At the end of the day, there's only one. movement in recent history that won households under $100,000. That was Donald Trump in the 2024 campaign, which he won the popular vote. The DSA and leftists is predominantly.

a coalition of downwardly mobile white liberals. A lot of people who don't have a four-year college degree find. the movement distasteful or distrust them, We saw that just. what happened in the Abdul El-Sayed campaign. in the primary election, where you had older Black voters, a traditional political constituency, and households that don't have four-year college. did not vote for him. JON STEWART: Still vote--. I mean, that was a Democratic primary, but go ahead. SAAGAR ENJETI: Right. But that's emblematic also in the general election. results of 2024.

So if we try to transpose those two things, the most likely predictor of what your politics are. in this country is whether you have a four-year college degree. or not. And if four-year college degree is also correlated. highly with income, then the Democratic Party, while may having economic positions that supposedly. benefit the working class, has not. convinced the working class of that--. that's just empirically true. JON STEWART: Right. SAAGAR ENJETI: And so that's kind of, like, my criticism, if you will--. Krystal gave her speech, so I'll. give my worst faith interpretation would.

be sure it's class cosplay. I mean, fundamentally, it is cosplay of dressing up, basically Woke 1 type policy and/or rhetoric. JON STEWART: Explain that. What is--. SAAGAR ENJETI: Woke 1? This is a whole thing, right? JON STEWART: I mean, also, let's be fair-- like, I mean, Trump is the one who puts on the apron. and sits in the McDonald's window. Like, talk about cosplay. Like, I don't think anybody does it--. SAAGAR ENJETI: Fair. Depends what type of cosplay we're cosplaying. JON STEWART: How many times can you. hear, he's a blue-collar billionaire,

and you're like, yeah, I don't think that's a thing? SAAGAR ENJETI: He's cosplaying Norman. Rockwell America, obviously, which is. highly effective, all right? So you have to grapple with that if you want to win. in American politics today. JON STEWART: Right. SAAGAR ENJETI: And so, yeah, I mean, I think-- and to the whole Woke 1 debate-- and Krystal. and I literally had it today. JON STEWART: Yeah. Tell me what you mean by that because I'm. not sure I understand. SAAGAR ENJETI: So AOC recently went. on television and she said, quote, "Woke 1 was crazy.". And it was in relation to Francesca Hong, who's a DSA candidate who is very likely to win, I.

think, tonight--. JON STEWART: Wisconsin. SAAGAR ENJETI: --in Wisconsin, in the gubernatorial election, in which I don't have the exact tweet in front of me, had said something along the lines critical of Thanksgiving. She gives an interview in which they said, so do you want to cancel Thanksgiving, and gives a word salad level of an answer. OK? Might seem nonsensical. Jon, you and I both know that in this country, that is not exactly how you're going to "appeal,". quote unquote, to very working class that we're talking about. JON STEWART: My favorite holiday.

SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah, it's most people's favorite holiday. It's most normal people's favorite holiday. And so that comes across as deeply disconnected. and obsessed with what some activist is either going to say. towards you or your genuine belief. that Thanksgiving or just, like, white society, which. she's also talked a lot about her own, like, biracial son. and potentially being ashamed of that-- like, that is deeply off putting, I think, to a lot of people. And so that is where, like, to the extent. that I have a critique, I guess, is they're saying,

oh, Woke 1 was crazy. And it's like, no, but you still. believe many of the things that Woke 1 consisted of. JON STEWART: She's still saying that now? SAAGAR ENJETI: No, no, no. What I'm saying is AOC had said Woke 1 was crazy, as in the rhetoric that we used, there was an Overton window. And she made it clear that much of the rhetoric that. was used from 2020 was bad. JON STEWART: Oh, OK. All right. I see what you're saying. Was dumb. SAAGAR ENJETI: And I'm like, OK, that's fine. But, Jon, as you're saying, if the rhetoric.

was bad, well, what about the idea? Like, do you still believe, like, in defund the police? Zohran explicitly apologized to the cops. and said, no, I'm sorry I said that. And so, OK, that's fine for people like me. JON STEWART: But isn't, on the flip side of that, isn't going through people's old tweets, isn't. that what the right hated--. SAAGAR ENJETI: Absolutely fair. Fair. You're right. It's part of cancel culture. Has the right embraced cancel culture? Yes. Especially--. JON STEWART: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. SAAGAR ENJETI: --whenever it comes to anti-Semitism. and all of this--. JON STEWART: Or Bud Light.

But, yeah, I get what you're saying. SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah. JON STEWART: Is so much of woke now, or cancel culture, or anything also just the ubiquity of social media, meaning we've democratized criticism--. so social media makes its money on outrage, conflict, all those different things. Isn't it just a reflection of there is no such thing. as non-cancel culture, because everything that you say,

somebody will try and seek advantage of it, and highlight it, and amplify it to help them do that? KRYSTAL BALL: Certainly. JON STEWART: And I also don't understand. how the idea that, well, she said Thanksgiving. should be canceled, so she's crazy. But he said Trump won the 2020 election, but that's fine. We're all just-- we're all just going to go along with the--. SAAGAR ENJETI: Well, is it fine, though? JON STEWART: Well, no, but I'm saying, like, it is. SAAGAR ENJETI: I think people who say that get. plenty of criticism, though.

I don't think it's fine. I don't think that's true. JON STEWART: But they get criticism, but there's no accountability. It's not like they don't still get confirmed by the Senate. It's not that-- they can sit in a confirmation hearing. KRYSTAL BALL: For example, Mike Rogers--. Mike Rogers is an election denier. And I haven't seen all the hand-wringing about, like, oh, my god, is he going to be able to win and win. over moderate voters because he's such an extremist on this? SAAGAR ENJETI: See, I'm not sure that's true. I see that story, like, two days ago. KRYSTAL BALL: What I've heard is. all about how extreme Abdul is because oh, my god,

he hung out with Hasan Piker. How dare he? Versus Mike Rogers, who actually holds these. views himself and has expressed them multiple times. That's not framed as being too extreme for a moderate voter. JON STEWART: But I'm sure he doesn't actually. hold those views, Krystal. He doesn't. Again, it's cynical. He doesn't actually hold them. I'm sure he's not an idiot. KRYSTAL BALL: Right. But it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. whether he believes it in his heart of hearts. or whether it's a cynical posture.

He's going to act and behave in the same way. because he's going to be a rubber stamp for Donald. Trump at the end of the day. So, no, I think woke is, especially. the current iteration of woke coming from the. Trump administration--. JON STEWART: Now, what's the current--. so if that's Woke 0.1, what's Woke 0.2? KRYSTAL BALL: Well, that's, I think, up for debate. SAAGAR ENJETI: Great question. KRYSTAL BALL: But currently, we're. living through a Trump regime that wants. to crush any sort of dissent. The place where they've come down the hardest. is on any sort of criticism of Israel, which is characterized as being anti-Semitic.

And they've used it as an excuse. to jail, to crush protests, to deport. And, as part of their NSPM7 project, they also use that to label you as, effectively, a terrorist and subject to potential government. action and surveillance. So it goes far beyond some, like, social media. cancelation campaign at this point and, I think, really does expose how, at its core, this is really. about controlling the bounds of debate, about scaring.

people into compliance. You against an unpopular policy, and about maintaining power. So I think that's the way that it's. really been deployed by Trump. JON STEWART: Does that sound like Woke 2.0 to you, Saagar? SAAGAR ENJETI: See, this is the difficulty. I accept Krystal's entire critique, as that. is the definition of woke. I've described the anti-Semitism freakout. in the administration as, like, Ibram X. Kendi's dream come. true-- like, going after universities and saying,

you're not sufficiently not anti-anti-Semitic enough. I think it's outrageous. I think it's obviously a violation. and all that of free speech. Woke 2.0 is what I think is-- for example, Abdul El-Sayed, the candidate in Michigan, literally claimed that he'd never said defund the police. He did say it. He lied about that. Now, that's an important thing. JON STEWART: I mean, that's--. SAAGAR ENJETI: OK. But, Jon, he said it. And he lied that he didn't say it. He deleted his tweet. And that's fine.

And that may not be objectionable to you, but it certainly is objectionable. JON STEWART: We've all lived through the campaign ads. of guys on the left having to, like, walk with police. and go like, actually, they're quite nice. SAAGAR ENJETI: Well, I actually think that's healthy and good, because it establishes good norms in society as opposed to, like, wanting to defund and/or ban police. JON STEWART: Well, I never understood. why progressives reject public safety. as a non-progressive value. I always look at it as, don't people.

in the most economically devastated areas. deserve the same level of law and order that people. in Beverly Hills enjoy? I never understood why you would--. SAAGAR ENJETI: I agree. JON STEWART: --why you would hold back on that. But, Saagar, the anti-Semitism thing. is kind of interesting to me, as someone who's. received pretty good anti-Semitic stuff. and been accused of being it myself. If you look at the Twitter feed, I'll always get, like, you're a dirty Jew,

along with you're a kapo. Like, you get it all. I'm interested on the right this idea of-- they fight. anti-Semitism when, very clearly, they hire people--. there's the Young Republican Club in New York. where they go through their chat history, and it's just vile--. like, flat out anti-Semitism. Or JD Vance will say, look, the Nazi jokes, who doesn't. like to have a Nazi joke?

I don't think we should hold that against people, while basically forcing universities. to pay them millions and millions of dollars. Again, can you understand why the whole thing feels cynical? SAAGAR ENJETI: Sure. Yeah. And you're right, because it is cynical. Because it's not about anti-Semitism. It's about Israel. That's what it's about. It's about the unholy alliance. JON STEWART: But can't you understand. now how, writ large, the whole operation seems cynical?

SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah. But I would say that a lot of Democratic stuff. is just as cynical, right? And so then--. JON STEWART: That might very well be. But you'd have to tell me those--. you'd have to make those points to me as well. And I could tell you what's cynical and what's not. But I don't hear a lot of specificity in the criticism. SAAGAR ENJETI: 100% fair. How much time do we have? I think--. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS] Not much. You're busy people. SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah, I think to your--. I do want to pick up on the anti-Semitism point, just. because I do want people--. I want this to be emphasized is it does expose.

the lie at the heart of it, as you just said, that any of this. is really about anti-Semitism or any genuine concern. It's about Israel. And it is just the pro-Israel alliance. with the Trump administration. And, Krystal, you eloquently talked about Woke 2.0. and how it's about power. I think Woke 1.0 was also about power, cultural takeover. in order to defend an unpopular policy. So I think they both have two things in common.

And, in both cases, I think both. are genuinely not about what they. allegedly were supposed to be-- anti-Semitism and/or racism. I think both are about cultural power, who gets to have. said power in our society. Again, I would say, I would never have predicted it, Jon. And perhaps that's the dupe in me. But, how can you come up with people who've. been talking about free speech for 10 years, only to then, when they have power, deport people for what they have said? I would not have predicted that--. never in a million years. And so I do have to be forced to accept.

some of your own criticism of what you're saying. JON STEWART: I'm just saying, like, Donald. Trump said to Zuckerberg--. Mark Zuckerberg-- Zuckerbucks is what threw the election. And so if he tries that again, I'm going to put him in jail. I said that to Elon Musk. I said, so you said free speech is your line. You're supporting a guy who's literally threatened to jail. somebody if they exercise their free speech,

while you're, as a social media mogul, doing far more direct electioneering, giving away $1 million here, setting up an algorithm that. favors conservative content. How can you justify that? And he says, oh, Trump is just-- that's just talk. So I guess my point is you see the clues you want to see--. Krystal, and the same could be said from the left.

If somebody was saying, yeah, man, I'm going to open all the borders, and then that's what happens. And you say-- wouldn't you say, well, they said it. How can you pretend that they didn't? KRYSTAL BALL: Well, yeah. I mean, I think, to me, it's not just about listening. to the rhetoric. It's also looking at the actions. And, I mean, look, it's no secret Trump. behaves like an authoritarian. He does it in his business. He did it in Trump 1.0. He wanted to shoot protesters in the knees. That's hardly pro-First Amendment, pro-free speech.

type of activity. And on anti-Semitism specifically, I mean, there's. always been, even at the height of, oh, we're pro-free speech, et cetera, there's always been a carve-out for Israel. I mean, just look at these anti-BDS laws. across the country. Look at the number of professors. who had their careers attacked by free speech maven. Bari Weiss as one example. So there's always been a carve out there because it's. about protecting Israel, and it's also.

about a lot of the influence they've successfully been. able to wield, which is not unique to the Israel lobby, but is very central to the way that our politics ultimately. operate. SAAGAR ENJETI: I totally agree. JON STEWART: Saagar, you were going to say something. I'm sorry. I cut you off. SAAGAR ENJETI: Honestly, I don't even remember. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS] That's a perfect place to stop. KRYSTAL BALL: Hold on, Jon. If I don't say that, my husband, Kyle Kulinski, wants you to run for president and is your biggest booster, then he's going to divorce me. So--. JON STEWART: Oh, dear god. Don't let the divorce--.

oh, I so want you two to work out, but I don't want to--. KRYSTAL BALL: [LAUGHS] Come on. The country needs you, Jon. JON STEWART: Saagar, who you got--. who are you-- do you guys talk about, in your mind, is there a leader that you think could arise that could. put behind us this weaponized environment we currently. live in, run on a platform of sane policy,

competently executed? Do you think they could do that? And is there someone out there that you. view as having that potential? KRYSTAL BALL: There is an agenda. for the taking for someone. I don't know who that someone is. JON STEWART: No question. Certainly, on the left, it's wide open. KRYSTAL BALL: There is an agenda for the taking that is. about economic populism, yes. It's about pushing back against the tech oligarchs, fighting back against these data. centers that are taking over communities. and which are hated by left, right, center-- doesn't.

matter-- about a foreign policy, which. is about investing in America rather than fighting. these horrific, immoral foreign wars. and backstopping a genocide. To me, there is a broad FDR-style coalition. that is there for the taking if you have the right person who. has credibility in expressing those values in the right way. JON STEWART: Saagar? SAAGAR ENJETI: I don't know about a specific person. I do have a general kind of theory. I love to read history books-- is that we talked.

about the '60s and the '70s. And one of the most unique parts of Jimmy Carter's rise. is that if you had gone a few years before, nobody would have predicted that somebody like. him could have been elected. Now, let's ignore how he actually governed and. the promise of Carter itself. JON STEWART: There was an oil shock. Saagar, come on, man. SAAGAR ENJETI: All right. Yeah, sure. It wasn't just oil. JON STEWART: He didn't know. SAAGAR ENJETI: Yeah. But I do think a really interesting. idea is that the Trump era began with the escalator. The celebrity politics era began with Obama--.

that we've now lived with 20 or so years of celebrity politics, that an inevitable swing back would be to the type of thing. you're talking about-- JON STEWART: An executive. SAAGAR ENJETI: An executive, a level of seriousness, an anti-charisma, a level of nerdishness, almost--. in the way that Carter's sheer moral improbability was. so important to the country in a post-Watergate, post-Nixon, post-LBJ environment--. JON STEWART: Governor of Iowa type dude. Governor of Iowa.

SAAGAR ENJETI: But with the right politics. So that's the key. This is the key to those two things. is many of what Krystal just said. JON STEWART: And the right and ability. to communicate those politics. I think there might be some people that exist without that. SAAGAR ENJETI: If you put those together, the country is desperate for genuine leadership. JON STEWART: Desperate. SAAGAR ENJETI: That's what I think. JON STEWART: So thirsty. Final question-- Trump famously chose the escalator, which, to me, is maybe the least authoritative. mode of transportation--. [LAUGHTER]. --there is.

It's literally-- it's gravity, and you don't. even have to move your legs. SAAGAR ENJETI: It's cinematic. Yeah. JON STEWART: You're heading down. What would be, for our next great leader, what would be the mode of conveyance. that they could choose? Would it be people mover? Chariot? What-- anything? KRYSTAL BALL: The Segway. SAAGAR ENJETI: They should announce it on Breaking Points. Breaking points. That's where they should come. [LAUGHTER]. KRYSTAL BALL: Majestic. JON STEWART: The final plug.

The final damn plug. I can't thank you guys enough. Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti of Breaking Points. Please check out the show, because it is, and I don't say this lightly, good faith. KRYSTAL BALL: Thank you. Good faith conversation that you may not. agree with some of it, you may have arguments, but it never feels cynical. It never feels manipulated. And it never feels performative.

SAAGAR ENJETI: That's extremely kind, Jon. JON STEWART: And I really do appreciate that for the both. of you. It's not an easy trick to pull. SAAGAR ENJETI: Thank you. Thank you very much. KRYSTAL BALL: Means a lot coming from you, Jon. Thank you so much. JON STEWART: Thanks, guys. SAAGAR ENJETI: My last plug-- my parents adore you. JON STEWART: I love them. SAAGAR ENJETI: I think my mom met you in an airport once. JON STEWART: Wait, for real? SAAGAR ENJETI: Yes. She said you were extremely kind to her. So thank you. And I was in the front row at the Rally. to Restore Sanity at age 18 while I was in college. KRYSTAL BALL: Did it work? Did we restore the sanity, Jon?

JON STEWART: Clearly didn't take. SAAGAR ENJETI: But I was there. I was there. JON STEWART: Thank you guys both for being with us. [THEME MUSIC]. Folks, you know, I am nothing if not a generator. of ideas that may never work. Obviously, we've talked a little bit. on this show about the Crumple, which is the portable dog. bed that you throw on the ground. that makes it different topographical. shape each time you do it. Think of it as the way your dog likes to sit on your coat, although, officially, a more dog. appropriate blanket type thing hasn't come into production.

or fruition yet. But this Shopify thing, if you've got an idea-- if you're. somebody that always thinks, oh, you know what. would be a great business? This is the thing that makes it work, makes it ready to go from day one. And I don't know how they did it--. I think with zeros and ones. I don't know how this works, to be honest with you. I don't know how computers work in general or apps work. Zeros and ones, and then you feed it into a box. where, I guess, eight brilliant gerbils live and they. do the rest of the work.

I have no idea. It's easy to design your shop. It's easy to get paid. They handle the checkout process. You might think to yourself, like, oh, how are they going. to complete their purchase? Shopify handles it, gets them to come. back as repeat customers. Setup and checkout are all handled. So get Shopify, for god's sakes. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea. and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at Shopify.com/TWS. Start your free trial at Shopify.com/TWS.

[THEME MUSIC]. You can so tell Saagar's parents do not agree with him, but he's learned the gentle art of accepting. his parents' wrongness, but dealing. with them in a kind way. Like, I can't tell you how many times he said to me, like, "I see how you got there.". Well, certainly, I can understand.

why you might think that. But, like, that is a guy trying to get through the weekend. he is spending at home. GILLIAN SPEAR: I am going to steal some of those, like, rhetorical flourishes. JON STEWART: Right? GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. He has the patience, first of all, of a saint. Like, just--. JON STEWART: Fantastic. GILLIAN SPEAR: It's really admirable what he does. What they both do, but what he did in this conversation, because it was a bit of two on one. So shoutout to Saagar. JON STEWART: I did feel bad on that. There was a certain point-- but when he would say, like,

it's not cynical. And I'd be like, come on. God. Saagar. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Can't help yourself. Yeah. JON STEWART: How can it not be cynical? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. When he said they love how much it drives you crazy, that really hit me, because I was. like, so that's why my family behaves. this way in the group chat? Last week, I left the group chat. because they're just like--. the memes, the Fauci shit. Oh, my god. It just, like, surged. And I was like, I'm out. I can't. GILLIAN SPEAR: I've highly suspected for years that this.

was all just to own the libs. And just for that to be confirmed in that moment. was gratifying, but also really upsetting. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: Right. But it's also, in some ways, it's verified my decision. to never join group chats. GILLIAN SPEAR: Oh, yeah. JON STEWART: I do not have--. there are no long--. the largest group chat I have is literally with the guys. that I play music with. GILLIAN SPEAR: OK, that's a reasonable number. JON STEWART: There's four of us. And the only discussions are-- the discussions are.

always, like, Tuesday night. GILLIAN SPEAR: Then it's a bunch of thumbs ups. JON STEWART: What about Wednesday? Can't. You know, it's that. There's not a lot of fuck COVID. Like, none of that stuff. GILLIAN SPEAR: I see where you're coming from. JON STEWART: That's exactly right. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. JON STEWART: Brittany, what do we. got on this, our final episode of the summer? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: OK. Jon, do you think the White House press corps is. cool with taking a bullet or a surface. to air missile for Trump? JON STEWART: Absolutely. [LAUGHTER].

Of course. They would say to themselves, if we can be the decoy--. sir, if killing us makes you safe, however, that would be--. do you want one of us to put on the Trump wig? Do you want us to put on the red tie and do that? GILLIAN SPEAR: I'll jump in front. of the catering cart myself. Sure. JON STEWART: Whatever it is you want us to do, sir. Do you want us to taste your food to make sure that it. is in no way contaminated? Although now, with Kennedy running HHS,

you don't know if it's contaminated because. of a foreign act of assassination. or there's just diarrhea parasites in everything. GILLIAN SPEAR: Common misconception. JON STEWART: That was a wild story. Although Kaitlan Collins, again, because Kaitlan Collins, she does her research, she says, that is not unprecedented, that a president. has had to change plans based on a certain threat. And it wasn't until afterwards that it. was explained to the people who remained. on the targeted conveyance.

Hey, by the way, just wanted to let you guys know, now that we're here safely, there were. a lot of lasers being pointed. And we weren't sure which one was. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It's so fucking crazy. Also, the irony of it being a catering truck is just, like--. GILLIAN SPEAR: It's just like what's always in the. movies, too. They're like, how do we get you out of here? And then there's, like, a little catering cart. And you're like, oh, it's perfect. JON STEWART: Here's the question. Did he have to put on the cater waiter outfit? GILLIAN SPEAR: He had a disguise.

He dressed as a bellhop. They got him out. JON STEWART: Actually, here's what they did. They brought him in on the big table, and it had the little cloche on it. And then they pulled it in. They got the table to the safe location, and then they lifted the cloche. Are you OK now, Mr. President? And they put it back down. GILLIAN SPEAR: It's just such a screwball comedy. It's perfect. JON STEWART: Isn't it? It's very Clouseau. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I also love him saying, "if I go, you go" afterwards. And it's like, actually, not the case. JON STEWART: Actually, that was if they go, they go. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Right.

GILLIAN SPEAR: If I go, I go. You stay. JON STEWART: If I go, I go. And you don't go. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: You go bye bye. JON STEWART: Yeah. You go bye bye. That's for sure. What else they got? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: All right, Jon, whose weave is better--. Trump or Fetterman? JON STEWART: Oh. Whose weaves? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Well weave, weave? JON STEWART: Well, yeah, I was going to say Fetterman-- no. I mean, Fetterman, I think, gave up on whatever hairstyle--.

Trump at least is experimenting. That's kind of what I dig about him. Like, with Trump, you literally could imagine, like, where was he this morning? And somebody'd be like, I think the beauty parlor. Because he's got a hairdo now that's like--. when I was younger, all the old ladies. would go to this guy Joe. It was the beauty parlor. And Joe would be at the beauty parlor, and he would take care of the ladies. And he's got that-- like, I imagine Trump sitting. under that little dome after getting his thing up, and just.

coming out, and going like, oh, my god, way til I play bridge. Trump is the master of the weave. because he's in control of it. Fetterman, unfortunately, I think--. look, to be fair to him, like, he had a stroke. I do think that creates processing issues. I don't think it's a great environment for him. in long form, necessarily. I don't want to lay all of it on that, because I don't think all of it should be laid on that.

But I definitely think he may have a more thoughtful mode. of communicating that we are not necessarily. privy to, if that would be--. is that the nicest way to say it, fairest way to say it? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It is. GILLIAN SPEAR: I would say it's too generous, in fact. JON STEWART: I'm not suggesting that the opinions should not. be criticized and looked at with astonishment,

because I do think they are his real opinions. I just don't know if that was necessarily. his best at defending them. That's all I'm saying. GILLIAN SPEAR: I haven't seen better. And I did look around quite a bit, so--. [LAUGHTER]. I haven't seen him articulate the point better than he did. JON STEWART: All right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I actually think he's taking--. I think Fetterman is taking, like, some of Trump's playbook, where it's like when he's talking to some of the media, just, like, completely throwing lobs back. Like, I think it was DropSite, like, caught him in the hallway.

and was asking him questions about Israel. And he was like, who do you work for? Like, that's not a real organization. JON STEWART: Oh, right. You know what? I'm giving him too much credit. I am giving him too much credit. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: But I think that's, like-- he's. copying Trump a little bit. Like, I see there's some tendencies there. But, yeah. JON STEWART: I think it's because in the conversation, like, I did get to a place where I felt bad. I know that's-- he's a senator. There's no amount of having that-- but having.

diminished ability, but having power not be diminished, that's a scary place for people to be. But it's hard not to, on a human level, have a conversation at that length with somebody in that. situation where you don't go like, oh, it's like I have. to not-- let me just not be--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. I think that you have to-- yeah, I think it's really good to, like,

hold space for that kind of empathy. JON STEWART: Whoa. Did you just say--. I've never heard "hold space" used before in a non--. GILLIAN SPEAR: But I don't know that it's. warranted, necessarily. JON STEWART: I agree. And the reason why it's not warranted. is the amount of power that the individual. wields-- in the same way for Mitch McConnell. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. JON STEWART: Where you can go like, wow, that must suck to be infirmed to the point.

where you literally can't be filmed saying you're OK--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. JON STEWART: --and then also think. to yourself, fuck that guy for still having that much power. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. GILLIAN SPEAR: 100%. JON STEWART: I feel better. Thank you for helping me work through this, because I did--. I was feeling guilty. GILLIAN SPEAR: You shouldn't. JON STEWART: I can't not think that I. was feeling a bit guilty. That's all. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: No. JON STEWART: All right. What's final? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Resolved. Last one. Jon, please settle this for me and my wife. JON STEWART: Done. I can do that.

No problem. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: McDonald's fries. or Burger King onion rings? JON STEWART: McDonald's fries. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: Why would anybody even--. why would someone throw that, even, into the--. the Burger King onion ring, I don't believe, is in the same weight class. That's like Manchester City or, you know, somebody-- the Galaxy. Like, it's not even--.

GILLIAN SPEAR: They can do a friendly every now and again, but they shouldn't be competing. JON STEWART: Thank you, Gillian. A friendly. They can play. And you know what? We'll even pretend that we're going to referee it. But we all know what the real situation is. Now the McDonald's fry--. I will say this. My view on the size of McDonald's fry. has changed over the years. In the old days, if you would supersize a fry.

or get me the largest container of fries that they will. allow me to take out of the restaurant. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes. JON STEWART: Do you have--. I'm sorry, do you have bucket o' fry? May I have a bucket? How about this? I'll hold my arms like this, and you load it with fry, and I will walk out with-- oh, you know what I'll have? The sack o' fries. Like, a little Santa sack filled with fries. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah.

JON STEWART: As I've gotten older, I can actually feel the amount of salt enter my body. and slowly begin to change the chemical makeup. of what I'm experiencing. And I can't do it. GILLIAN SPEAR: Oh, that sucks just. to know that that's coming. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: Oh, it's coming. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Nothing hits like a medium French fry. and a medium Diet Coke. JON STEWART: Now, you say medium French fry-- that is.

a respectable amount of fry. But the large fry, 3/4 of the way through, I think to myself, I believe I'm having. a pulmonary embolism. GILLIAN SPEAR: I'll eat a bucket of fries. for the both of us, Jon. JON STEWART: Thank you so much. And I miss it. You know what I've taken to doing at times? You get the fries, and you do this. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: No. JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah, yeah. GILLIAN SPEAR: I get the fries, and I do this. JON STEWART: Oh, no, no, no. I have to clear out, whatever they've put on--. GILLIAN SPEAR: That's dark.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Wait, have you. had a Burger King onion ring? JON STEWART: Oh, sure. Oh, listen, I've traveled. Is that what you're asking me? GILLIAN SPEAR: Has he traveled the world? Of course he has. JON STEWART: Am I a bon vivant? Am I a sophisticate? Of course I've had the--. and, by the way, I've even had when they try shit like, let's do cheesy tots. Like, they'll introduce new fried items or things. like that, I'll try them all. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Why not? JON STEWART: I'll try the Cinnabon.

with the little frosting in the center of it. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. Fuck yeah. JON STEWART: Fucking Taco Bell tried to throw out a chocolate. empanada for a little while. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. Sort of like a choco taco. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I always wondered. who those advertisements worked on. GILLIAN SPEAR: You're looking at him. JON STEWART: Me. I try them all. I'll throw-- but I am always searching for the perfection. of, in my old days, when I ate red meat, the McDonald's cheeseburger, a large fry, Coke,

and an apple pie. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Ooh. JON STEWART: That was the quintessential. American lab-made--. I'm sure it was made in-- like, the same lab that where you. made Creepy Crawlies, where you poured this stuff. into the thing, and then you heated it up, and out came a worm--. I'm sure it was the same lab. The '60s and '70s were nothing if not.

monosodium glutamate and whatever else. they could throw in there. GILLIAN SPEAR: They figured it out. JON STEWART: So good. All right, well, that's all for us. And this is it. The show, we are done until--. do you know when the next one is? September? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: September 10. GILLIAN SPEAR: Thursday. We'll be out on a Thursday that week. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Switching it up. JON STEWART: So we're switching it up. September 10. To all the people that have been. listening throughout the year, thank. you all so much for doing so. We're excited to come back in September.

and infuriate you even further. As always, we could not do it without our exceptional team. And we have added a new team member, I would like to say--. a new associate producer by the name of Rebecca Rotenberg. She'll be joining us, doing a wonderful job. But our producer Brittany Mehmedovic, our producer. Gillian Spear, our video editor and engineer Rob Vitolo, who made a headroom call today that I thought was well worth--.

I got a little lax. And I came in hot with a shit ton of headroom. And Rob said, not on my watch, my friend. Not going to happen. Audio editor and engineer Nicole. Boyce, associate producer Rebecca Rotenberg, as we mentioned earlier, and our executive producers, Chris McShane and Caity Gray. Thank you guys so much. And we shall see you in September. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central Podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. [THEME MUSIC].